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XI (of 15), by The President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy

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Title: Warren Commission (11 of 26): Hearings Vol. XI (of 15)

Author: The President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy

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Language: English

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Cover created by Transcriber and placed in the Public Domain.

INVESTIGATION OF
THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY

HEARINGS
Before the President's Commission
on the Assassination
of President Kennedy

Pursuant To Executive Order 11130, an Executive order creating a Commission to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of the late President John F. Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of the man charged with the assassination and S.J. Res. 137, 88th Congress, a concurrent resolution conferring upon the Commission the power to administer oaths and affirmations, examine witnesses, receive evidence, and issue subpenas

Volume
XI

UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE

WASHINGTON, D.C.


U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE, WASHINGTON: 1964

For sale in complete sets by the Superintendent of Documents, U.S. Government Printing Office Washington, D.C., 20402


iii

PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION
ON THE
ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT KENNEDY

Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman

Biographical information on the Commissioners and the staff can be found in the Commission's Report.

AMr. Willens also acted as liaison between the Commission and the Department of Justice.


v

Preface

The testimony of the following witnesses is contained in volume XI: John Edward Pic, Lee Harvey Oswald's halfbrother; Edward John Pic, Jr., John Edward Pic's father; Kerry Wendell Thornley, a Marine Corps acquaintance of Oswald; George B. Church, Jr., Mrs. George B. Church, Jr., and Billy Joe Lord, who were on the boat Oswald took when he left the United States for Russia; Alexander Kleinlerer, Mrs. Donald Gibson, Ruth Hyde Paine, Michael Ralph Paine, and Gary Taylor, who became acquainted with Oswald and his wife after their return to Texas in 1962; M. Waldo George, the Oswald's landlord at Neely Street in Dallas; William Kirk Stuckey, who gave testimony relating to Oswald's political views; Horace Elroy Twiford and Estelle Twiford, who gave testimony relating to the date and route of Oswald's trip to Mexico in 1963; Virginia H. James, James D. Crowley, James L. Ritchie, and Carroll Hamilton Seeley, Jr., of the U.S. State Department; Louis Feldsott, who gave testimony relating to the purchase of the C2766 rifle; J. Philip Lux and Albert C. Yeargan, Jr., employees of sporting-goods stores in Dallas; Howard Leslie Brennan, who was present at the assassination scene; Louis Weinstock, an official of the Communist Party, Vincent T. Lee, an official of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee, and Farrell Dobbs, an official of the Socialist Workers Party, who testified concerning contacts Oswald had with their groups; Virginia Gray, who gave testimony concerning a letter written by Oswald; Albert F. Staples, who gave testimony concerning records relating to Marina Oswald; Katherine Mallory, Monica Kramer, and Rita Naman, who encountered Oswald while touring Russia in 1961; John Bryan McFarland, Meryl McFarland, and Pamela Mumford, who were on the bus Oswald took to Mexico in the fall of 1963; Dial Duwayne Ryder, Hunter Schmidt, Jr., Charles W. Greener, Gertrude Hunter, Edith Whitworth, James Lehrer, and Mrs. Lee Harvey Oswald, who gave testimony concerning an allegation that Oswald had taken a rifle to a gun-repair shop in Dallas; Eugene D. Anderson and James A. Zahm, of the U.S. Marine Corps, experts on the subject of marksmanship; C. A. Hamblen, Robert Gene Fenley, and Aubrey Lee Lewis, who gave testimony concerning an allegation that Oswald was sending and receiving telegrams through a Dallas Western Union office; Dean Adams Andrews, Jr., Evaristo Rodriguez, Orest Pena, Ruperto Pena, and Sylvia Odio, who testified concerning contacts they believed they had with Oswald in New Orleans and Dallas under various circumstances; Edwin A. Walker, who testified concerning an attempt on his life on April 10, 1963, and his attorney, Clyde J. Watts; Ivan D. Lee, an agent of the FBI, who gave testimony regarding photographs which he took of General Walker's residence; Bernard Weissman, who paid for an advertisement concerning President Kennedy which appeared in a Dallas newspaper on November 22, 1963; Warren Allen Reynolds, who was present in the vicinity of the Tippit crime scene; Priscilla Mary Post Johnson, who interviewed Oswald in Moscow; Eric Rogers, who lived in the same building as Oswald and his wife in New Orleans in 1963; Bardwell D. Odum, James R. Malley, and Richard Helms, who testified concerning a photograph which was shown to Marguerite Oswald for purposes of identification; Peter Megargee Brown, who testified concerning records relating to Oswald when he lived in New York during his youth; Francis J. Martello of the New Orleans Police Department, who interrogated Oswald in August 1963; John Corporon, an official of a New Orleans broadcasting station; Mrs. J. V. Allen, who testified concerning the schooling of Oswald's brothers; Lillian Murret, Oswald's aunt; and John W. Burcham, Emmett Charles Barbe, Jr., Hilda L. Smith, J. Rachal, Bobb Hunley, Robert J. Creel, Helen P. Cunningham, Theodore Frank Gangl, Gene Graves, and Robert L. Adams, who testified concerning Oswald's employment history.


vii

Contents

  Page
Preface v
Testimony of—
John Edward Pic 1
Edward John Pic, Jr 82
Kerry Wendell Thornley 82
George B. Church, Jr 115
Mrs. George B. Church, Jr 116
Billy Joe Lord 117
Alexander Kleinlerer 118
Mrs. Donald Gibson 123
Ruth Hyde Paine 153, 389
M. Waldo George 155
William Kirk Stuckey 156
Horace Elroy Twiford 179
Estelle Twiford 179
Virginia H. James 180
James L. Ritchie 191
Carroll Hamilton Seeley, Jr 193
Louis Feldsott 205
J. Philip Lux 206
Howard Leslie Brennan 206
Albert C. Yeargan, Jr 207
Louis Weinstock 207
Vincent T. Lee 208
Farrell Dobbs 208
Virginia Gray 209
Albert F. Staples 210
Katherine Mallory 210
Monica Kramer 212
Rita Naman 213
John Bryan McFarland and Meryl McFarland 214
Pamela Mumford 215
Dial Duwayne Ryder 224
Hunter Schmidt, Jr 240
Charles W. Greener 245
Gertrude Hunter 253
Edith Whitworth 262
Mrs. Lee Harvey Oswald, Edith Whitworth, and Gertrude Hunter 275
Eugene D. Anderson 301
James A. Zahm 306
C. A. Hamblen 311
Robert Gene Fenley 314
Aubrey Lee Lewis 318
Dean Adams Andrews, Jr 325viii
Evaristo Rodriguez 339
Orest Pena 346
Ruperto Pena 364
Sylvia Odio 367
Michael Ralph Paine 398
Edwin A. Walker and Clyde J. Watts 404
Bernard Weissman 428
Warren Allen Reynolds 434
Priscilla Mary Post Johnson 442
Eric Rogers 460
James Lehrer 464
Bardwell D. Odum 468
James R. Malley 468
Richard Helms 469
Peter Megargee Brown 470
Gary Taylor 470
Francis L. Martello 471
John Corporon 471
Mrs. J. V. Allen 472
Lillian Murret 472
John W. Burcham 473
Emmett Charles Barbe, Jr 473
Hilda L. Smith 474
J. Rachal 474
Bobb Hunley 476
Robert J. Creel 477
Helen P. Cunningham 477
Theodore Frank Gangl 478
Gene Graves 479
Robert L. Adams 480
Ivan D. Lee 481
James D. Crowley 482

EXHIBITS INTRODUCED

  Page
Allen Exhibit No.:
1 472
2 472
3 472
4 472
5 472
6 472
7 472
8 472
9 472
10 472
11 472
12 472
13 472
14 472
15 472
Anderson Exhibit No. 1 303
Brown Exhibit No. 1 470
Burcham Exhibit No.:
1 473
2 473
3 473
Creel Exhibit No.:
1 477
2 477
3 477
4 477
5 477
6 477
7 477
8 477
Cunningham Exhibit No. 4 477
Gangl Exhibit No. 1 479ix
Graves Exhibit No. 1 479
Gray Exhibit No. 1 210
Greener Exhibit No.:
1 246
2 247
3 251
4 251
Hunley Exhibit No.:
1 476
2 476
3 476
4 476
5 476
6 476
7 476
James Exhibit No.:
1 181
2 186
3 187
3-A 187
4 188
5 188
6 189
7 189
8 189
9 189
10 190
11 190
Johnson Exhibit No.:
1 442
2 442
3 443
4 443
5 443
6 443
Kramer Exhibit No.:
1 212
2 213
Lee Exhibit:
A 482
B 482
Lewis Exhibit No. 1 323
Murret Exhibit No. 1 472
Odio Exhibit No. 1 373
Odum Exhibit No. 1 468
Pena Exhibit No. 1 359
Pic Exhibit No.:
1 5
2 13
2-A 15
3 14
4 15
5 15
6 66
6-A 66
7 66
7-A 66
8 66
8-A 66
9 66
9-A 66
10 66
10-A 66
10-B 66
11 66
11-A 66
12 66
12-A 66
13 66
13-A 66
14 66
15 66
16 66
16-A 66
17 66
17-A 66
18 66
18-A 66
19 66
19-A 66
20 66
20-A 66
20-B 66
21 67
21-A 67
22 67
23 67
23-A 67
24 67
24-A 67
25 67
25-A 67
26 67
26-A 67
27 69
27-A 69
27-B 69
28-A 69
28-B 69
29-A 69
29-B 69
29-C 69
30-A 69
30-B 69
31-A 69
31-B 69
32-A 69
32-B 70
33-A 70
33-B 70
34 70
35-A 70
35-B 70
36-A 70
36-B 70
37-A 71
37-B 71
38-A 71
38-B 71
39-A 71
39-B 71x
40-A 71
40-B 71
41-A 71
41-B 71
42-A 71
42-B 71
43-A 71
43-B 71
44-A 71
44-B 71
45-A 71
45-B 71
46-A 71
46-B 71
47-A 71
47-B 71
48 35
49 35
50 29
51 29
52 28
53 28
54 30
55 30
56 36
57 36
58 36
59 35
60 60
Rachal Exhibit No.:
1 475
2 476
3 476
Rogers Exhibit No. 1 463
Seeley Exhibit No.:
1 195
2 196
3 198
4 199
5 199
6 200
7 201
Smith Exhibit No. 1 474
Staples Exhibit No. 1 210
Stuckey Exhibit No.:
1 161
2 163
3 169
4 177
Thornley Exhibit No.:
1 112
2 113
3 114
Twiford Exhibit No. 1 179
Walker Exhibit No.:
1 408
2 409
3 411
4 411
Weinstock Exhibit No. 1 207
Weissman Exhibit No. 1 429

1

Hearings Before the President's Commission
on the
Assassination of President Kennedy

TESTIMONY OF JOHN EDWARD PIC

The testimony of John Edward Pic was taken at 10:25 a.m., on May 15, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Messrs. John Hart Ely and Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. Jenner. Sergeant Pic, do you swear in your testimony you are about to give that you will tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?

Mr. Pic. Yes; I do.

Mr. Jenner. State your full name, please.

Mr. Pic. Staff Sergeant John Edward Pic, sir, U.S. Air Force.

Mr. Jenner. And that Pic is spelled P-i-c-?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Give me your home address.

Mr. Pic. 7306 Westville, San Antonio, Tex.

Mr. Jenner. You are a married man?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Give the full name of your wife including her married name, children, if any, ages and names and where born.

Mr. Pic. My wife's maiden name is Margaret Dorothy Fuhrman. My eldest is John Edward Pic, Jr., 14 May, 1952. My daughter, Janet Ann Pic, 18 October 1954; James Michael Pic, 22 February 1960.

Mr. Jenner. Your wife Margaret is—she was born where?

Mr. Pic. New York City, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Her parents are native Americans as well as she?

Mr. Pic. No, sir; they are not.

Mr. Jenner. What do you know of them?

Mr. Pic. Her father died; I never met the man while we were going together. Her mother and father were separated. Her mother was born in Hungary, I think. Her father was also, sir.

Mr. Jenner. What do you understand as to when they came to this country?

Mr. Pic. I have never inquired. It has probably been mentioned but I have forgotten.

Mr. Jenner. Was it your impression they had been here a good many years?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; they have seven children. The eldest being in her forties, I am pretty sure.

Mr. Jenner. I see. When you met your wife she was living with her mother?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Where?

Mr. Pic. 325 East 92d Street, New York City.

Mr. Jenner. And you were at that time in the service?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; U.S. Coast Guard, assigned to U.S. Coast Guard Cutter Rockaway.

Mr. Jenner. How old is Mrs. Pic?

Mr. Pic. Thirty, sir. She turned 30 the 21st of December.

Mr. Jenner. Of 1963?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

2 Mr. Jenner. She was born December 21, 1933?

Mr. Pic. It may be 22, sir; I never remember. I am giving sworn testimony, I don't want to lie about my wife's birthday; it is either the 21st or 22d, I am pretty sure it is the 21st.

Mr. Jenner. You are stationed where at present?

Mr. Pic. I am attached to Wilford Hall, USAF Hospital, Lackland Air Force Base, San Antonio, Tex.

Mr. Jenner. Do you—what is your particular assignment?

Mr. Pic. I am NCOIC, Special Procedures Branch, Department of Pathology, Wilford Hall Hospital. I have had this job since the 10th of February this year, and my other ones, I had another job when I talked to the Secret Service if you would be interested in that.

Mr. Jenner. How long have you been at Lackland?

Mr. Pic. I have been there since August 1962, sir.

Mr. Jenner. My information is you were born in New Orleans on January 17, 1932?

Mr. Pic. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Jenner. You entered the Coast Guard.

Mr. Pic. It was either 25 or 26 January 1950, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And you were then 18 years of age?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And that was where?

Mr. Pic. I processed my enlistment in Fort Worth. I was sworn into the Coast Guard in Dallas, Tex.

Mr. Jenner. I think it might be well if we had your service history all in one spot so you go ahead and for my benefit speak a little more slowly so I can absorb it.

Mr. Pic. All right, sir. Approximately 26 January 1950, enlisted in Coast Guard in Dallas, Tex.; from January 1950 until May 1950, I was in boot camp at U.S. Coast Guard Training Station, Cape May, N.J. In May 1950 until January 1951, I was attached to U.S. Coast Guard cutter Rockaway. January 1951 until approximately June 1951 was stationed at U.S. Coast Guard Training Station, Groton, Conn. From June 1951 until January 1952, I was stationed at U.S. Coast Guard Base, St. George, Staten Island, N.Y. From January 1952 until April 1952, I was stationed at U.S. Naval Training Station, Bainbridge, Md. April 1952 until February 1953, I was stationed at U.S. Coast Guard PSU, which is Port Security Unit, Ellis Island, N.Y. February 1953 until September 1953, I was stationed aboard the U.S. Coast Guard cutter Firebush.

Mr. Jenner. Were you at sea?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; this was classified as sea duty. It was really a buoy tender.

Mr. Jenner. In what area?

Mr. Pic. New York area, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Were you on ship all the time during that period?

Mr. Pic. We would go out a day, come back the next; back and forth.

Mr. Jenner. What I am really getting at is when you were ashore were you home?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; I went home the minute I got off the ship.

Mr. Jenner. OK.

Mr. Pic. September 1953 until April 1954—these months I am pretty sure, I am certain are OK.

Mr. Jenner. That is all right.

Mr. Pic. I was stationed at U.S. Naval Hospital, Portsmouth, Va. My address when I lived there was, for 3 months we lived with my sister-in-law in Norfolk.

Mr. Jenner. Name her, please.

Mr. Pic. Mrs. Emma Parrish, I believe.

Mr. Jenner. That was your wife's sister?

Mr. Pic. That is correct, sir. Then in January of 1954 we moved over to Portsmouth, Va., 1234 Holliday Street.

April 1954 for about 2, 3 weeks, I was then stationed again at St. George, Staten Island, and I received orders through the Coast Guard cutter Halfmoon, and I was on the Coast Guard cutter Halfmoon until January 1956.

3 Mr. Jenner. And at sea or——

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; this was weather patrol duty.

Mr. Jenner. You did come ashore when you got home?

Mr. Pic. We pulled weather patrol, sir. We would be out 5 or 6 weeks and we would be in 5 or 6 weeks; and this I tolerated for 21 months. On 1 February 1956, I joined the Air Force. I joined the Air Force on Staten Island, N.Y. My address at this time was 80 St. Marks Place, Staten Island, N.Y.

Mr. Jenner. In a few words, what was that transition. Had you appeared——

Mr. Pic. My enlistment from the Coast Guard was complete, sir, and I decided that staying in the Coast Guard for 20 or some odd years I wouldn't see much of my family and I understood the Air Force was a family man's outfit and I figured that was for me. So the day after I got out of the Coast Guard I joined the Air Force—no broken service. I was stationed at Mitchel Air Force Base, Hempstead, Long Island, N.Y., until October, end of September, October 1958, and received orders to Japan, APO 323, Tachikawa, Japan.

Mr. Jenner. What year were you in?

Mr. Pic. 1958 when I received my orders.

Mr. Jenner. At this time when you were assigned to Japan, that was the period of time also when your brother Lee Oswald, then in the Marines, was also stationed in Japan?

Mr. Pic. To the best of my knowledge; yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Were you aware of that fact when you were stationed in Japan?

Mr. Pic. When I received my orders, I was under the impression he was in Korea, sir. I knew he was overseas in the Japanese-Korean area.

Mr. Jenner. Had you had any communication from him prior to your going to Japan?

Mr. Pic. To the best of my knowledge, sir, sometime after he entered the service and went overseas I received a letter from him, very short note. He wrote a very short note. I no longer have this.

Mr. Jenner. He entered the service in October of 1956?

Mr. Pic. I was in the Air Force at Mitchel Air Force Base at the time. Do you want me to finish with my military dates, and then I can go back?

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mr. Pic. November 1958, 10 November 1958 until 17 July, 1962, I was stationed in Japan. In August 1962 until the present date assigned to Lackland, Wilford Hall Air Force Hospital, Lackland Air Force Base.

Now, in the time period from—my mother paid us a Christmas visit, sir, during the Christmas holidays of 1957, I believe, after Lee had joined the Marine Corps.

Mr. Jenner. Yes; that would be a little over a year, that would be a year and 2 months after he had joined the Marine Corps.

Mr. Pic. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Where were you at that time?

Mr. Pic. I was stationed at Mitchel Air Force Base, sir, and I believe my address was 105 Avenue C, East Meadow, Long Island. I was living right next to the Air Force base.

Mr. Jenner. Had you known prior to that time, which presumably you did, that Lee had entered the service?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; I knew this.

Mr. Jenner. Had enlisted in the Marines?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And how had you learned that, through your mother?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; through my mother.

Mr. Jenner. Had you learned that at or about the time he actually enlisted? What were the circumstances?

Mr. Pic. Concerning what, sir?

Mr. Jenner. His enlistment, when you learned about it, and how. He enlisted in October 1956. He was then 17 years old.

Mr. Pic. My mother told me some way or another, I don't remember, sir. This is how I learned about it, either by phone call or by letter or some way. Of course, I knew he would do it as soon as he reached the age.

4 Mr. Jenner. All right. Why did you know he would do it and tell us the circumstances upon which you, the facts upon which you base that observation?

Mr. Pic. He did it for the same reasons that I did it and Robert did it, I assume, to get from out and under.

Mr. Jenner. Out and under what?

Mr. Pic. The yoke of oppression from my mother.

Mr. Jenner. Had that been a matter of discussion between you and for example, between you and your brother Robert?

Mr. Pic. No, sir; it was just something we understood about and never discussed.

Mr. Jenner. And that would include Lee as well as your brother Robert; that is, you were all aware of it?

Mr. Pic. I know this includes my brother Robert. Of course, when I was 18 years old I didn't discuss things like this with Lee, who was much younger.

Mr. Jenner. Please elaborate on that. You made a general statement——

Mr. Pic. OK.

Mr. Jenner. Which lawyers would call a mixed matter of conclusion and of fact and we would like to know the circumstances in general.

Mr. Pic. OK.

Mr. Jenner. They would probably go back for a good many years and it involves a personality.

Mr. Pic. Well, why don't I start with the death of Lee's father, and I think really starting there I can tell you more of my own feelings and so forth. I can make one statement but to bring out the circumstances I think I should go back a little further.

Mr. Jenner. All right. I will come back to this eventually. I will start you off this way. You are the brother of Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And you are also the brother of Robert?

Mr. Pic. Robert Lee Edward Oswald, Jr.

Mr. Jenner. Robert Lee Edward Oswald?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. I notice in your statements that you refer to him as Robert Lee Edward Oswald. There are some references by others to Robert E. Lee Oswald.

Mr. Pic. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Your stepfather is generally referred to in the record and by witnesses as Lee Oswald. What was his full name?

Mr. Pic. To the best of my knowledge, sir, it was Robert Lee Edward Oswald.

Mr. Jenner. In any event your brother Robert was a junior.

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Your brother Robert was born April 7, 1934; is that to the best of your recollection?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; to the best of my recollection.

Mr. Jenner. And your brother Lee Harvey Oswald, October 18, 1939?

Mr. Pic. That is correct, air.

Mr. Jenner. Your father's name?

Mr. Pic. Edward John Pic, sir.

Mr. Jenner. You are named after him except——

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. The two surnames were reversed?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; I think it appears on here. Yes, sir; I think it appears on here. Yes, sir. John Pic, Jr., in fact his name is——

Mr. Jenner. Edward John Pic, Jr.

Mr. Pic. Right.

Mr. Jenner. And your mother was Marguerite Claverie Oswald?

Mr. Pic. Claverie, Marguerite Frances.

Mr. Jenner. And your mother and father were married what date?

Mr. Pic. Eighth day of August 1929, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And you are now reading from what?

5 Mr. Pic. The marriage certificate of Edward John Pic, Jr., and Mrs. Marguerite Frances Claverie.

Mr. Jenner. That is a marriage certificate that you, that is among your personal papers?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. I am going to put an exhibit number on it. We will take a photograph of it and return the original to you.

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Mr. Reporter, would you mark that as John Pic Exhibit No. 1.

(John Pic Exhibit No. 1 was marked for identification.)

Mr. Jenner. I offer in evidence as John Pic Exhibit No. 1, a marriage certificate certified and dated August 8, 1929, reflecting the marriage of Edward John Pic, Jr. and Miss Marguerite Frances Claverie on the 1st day of August 1929, in Harrison County, Miss. The marriage certificate does not show the town.

Sergeant, do you have any recollection of your father?

Mr. Pic. My own father?

Mr. Jenner. Yes, sir.

Mr. Pic. No, sir, I don't.

Mr. Jenner. Do you have any recollection of ever having seen your father?

Mr. Pic. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. Jenner. You were too young at the time but you eventually became aware of the fact that your mother, Marguerite, and your father, Edward, were divorced not long after your birth?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Did you become aware also of the fact that at the time of your birth that your father and mother were separated?

Mr. Pic. No, sir.

Mr. Jenner. This is the first information, I take it, then, in the utterance I have just made?

Mr. Pic. No, sir.

Mr. Jenner. That you have become aware that your mother and your father were separated at the time of your birth?

Mr. Pic. No, sir.

Mr. Jenner. You did learn about that?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. From your mother?

Mr. Pic. From Life magazine, sir.

Mr. Jenner. I see. Well, that is what I was really getting at.

Mr. Pic. O.K.

Mr. Jenner. It was only in the last 6 or 8 months that you learned that at the time of your birth your mother and your father were separated?

Mr. Pic. That is correct, sir. I had always been told that they were divorced because he didn't want children. I didn't know anything else but that. I didn't know the time periods or anything else, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Your stepfather, when your mother and your stepfather—I will call him Lee Oswald because all the witnesses have referred to him as Lee Oswald, is that what he was called, do you have any recollection of it?

Mr. Pic. I remember him being referred to as Mr. Oswald, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Mr. Oswald?

Mr. Pic. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Did you have a recollection at the time, at least—that is an inelegant question. Do you recall your mother then marrying Lee Oswald or Mr. Oswald?

Mr. Pic. I knew they were married, I don't recall the marriage ceremony.

Mr. Jenner. What do you recall about him, sergeant?

Mr. Pic. I recall he was an insurance salesman, sir, for the Metropolitan Life Insurance Co. He used to take me on his rounds for collections sometimes. He was very strict with us. We got whippings when we were bad.

Mr. Jenner. You don't mean to claim that any of them was undeserved?

Mr. Pic. No, sir. Not in the least.

Mr. Jenner. I should say this to you, I think. The witnesses all, everybody spoke well of your stepfather.

6 Mr. Pic. That is how I remember him, sir.

Mr. Jenner. You were born in New Orleans?

Mr. Pic. I was?

Mr. Jenner. I am really putting a question mark at the end.

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; I was born at New Orleans.

Mr. Jenner. And the family lived in New Orleans?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Were you ever informed by anybody as to the business of your father, not your stepfather but your——

Mr. Pic. My real father?

Mr. Jenner. Yes; or occupation?

Mr. Pic. From what I was told he was a stevedore and had once been a professional basketball player. This is all I remember ever hearing about him.

Mr. Jenner. And this was information that came from primarily your mother?

Mr. Pic. From my mother; yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. As a boy as you grew up in New Orleans were you advised whether your father was alive, whether he was in New Orleans or where he was or anything about him in that connection?

Mr. Pic. Being the nosy child I was, every once in a while I would look him up in the phone book so I knew he existed.

Mr. Jenner. Did you make any inquiries to find out what his business was or occupation?

Mr. Pic. No, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Did you ever make any attempt to go to where he might be working or living to see what he looked like?

Mr. Pic. I thought of it several times but I never made an attempt.

Mr. Jenner. Were you influenced in this in any respect by your mother?

Mr. Pic. No, sir. I do remember on several occasions when we would visit the Lillian Murrets the name would come up that he had visited them, they would see him now and then and, of course, every time this cropped up it made me more inquisitive.

Mr. Jenner. You mentioned Lillian Murret, that is your aunt, your mother's sister?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And her husband is Charles "Dutz" Murret?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. In those early years, did your family reside somewhere near the Murrets? I am going to get into all those addresses if I can, but I am thinking of the overall relationship geographically.

Mr. Pic. As I recollect, the house was where Mr. Oswald died, all I know is that it was on the corner of Alvez and Galvez.

Mr. Jenner. 2109 Alvar?

Mr. Pic. There you go. I think the street that ran next to it was Galvez.

Mr. Jenner. You are correct.

Mr. Pic. This is the first real—I remember a first real house prior to this, where it was, sir, I don't know. I was about 5 at the time.

Mr. Jenner. But the first one you remember is the house on the corner that you have mentioned?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Do any of these addresses refresh your recollection? 2205 Alvar?

Mr. Pic. It may be the address of the house on Alvez and Galvez, I don't know.

Mr. Jenner. No?

Mr. Pic. I don't know, sir. No, sir.

Mr. Jenner. 2123 Alvar?

Mr. Pic. No, sir.

Mr. Jenner. 1661 Paul Morphy?

Mr. Pic. No, sir.

Mr. Jenner. 2132 Gallier?

Mr. Pic. The name, the streets sound—I may have heard it before.

Mr. Jenner. 1917 Gallier?

7 Mr. Pic. Only the street sounds familiar.

Mr. Jenner. 805 Greenwood?

Mr. Pic. No, sir.

Mr. Jenner. 220 North—my pronunciation will be bad—Telemachus.

Mr. Pic. No.

Mr. Jenner. 123 South Cortez?

Mr. Pic. No, sir.

Mr. Jenner. You had to get away yesterday before a letter arrived which is at your base now, from Mr. Rankin, general counsel for the Commission, confirming arrangements for you to appear and have your deposition taken before the Commission, and enclosing with that letter copies of the legislation being Senate Joint Resolution No. 137 authorizing the creation of the Commission, and a copy of President Johnson's Executive Orders bringing the Commission into existence No. 11130, and a copy of the rules and regulations of the Commission itself for the taking of depositions.

When you return to Lackland base you will find that letter probably in the possession of your Commanding Officer, and he will deliver it to you.

The Commission was authorized by the resolution I have mentioned and brought into existence by the President to investigate the facts and circumstances involved in and surrounding the assassination of President Kennedy on November 22, 1963, and we have understood from witnesses and other information we have, that you had and still have information bearing upon the facts and circumstances relative to that assassination, and it is this line of questioning that is directed toward that.

We appreciate your appearing voluntarily from Lackland base to appear here today.

That letter, and the enclosures state that you are entitled to counsel if you want counsel present, and if you desire to have counsel present I can suspend this now.

Mr. Pic. I have nothing to hide, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Go ahead, John.

Mr. Ely. I just wanted to check on a couple of addresses with you, sir. 914 Hennesey, do you remember that?

Mr. Pic. No, sir.

Mr. Ely. What about Taft Place?

Mr. Pic. No, sir.

Mr. Jenner. You attended William Frantz Elementary School in Dallas, did you not?

Mr. Pic. New Orleans.

Mr. Jenner. With your brother, Robert?

Mr. Pic. What grade was I in, sir. He was two grades behind me. If I was in the third, he was there. If I wasn't, he wasn't.

Mr. Jenner. Well, the record shows you enrolled in William Frantz School at 3811 North Galvez on the 16th of September 1936 at which time you were 4 years old.

Mr. Pic. Well, he wouldn't be there.

Mr. Jenner. Not at that time. He was then 2.

Do you recall transferring from William Frantz Elementary School to George Washington Elementary School?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; I do.

Mr. Jenner. Was that some time in late September or in November, perhaps of 1940.

Mr. Pic. Well, prior to that we went to another place, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Your first elementary school was William Frantz?

Mr. Pic. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And you attended William Frantz until when, to the best of your recollection?

Mr. Pic. I don't think I attended William Frantz after——

Mr. Jenner. The death of your stepfather?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; somewhere around there. We went to a boarding school over in Gretna, La. Infant Jesus College was the name of it, I believe, both Robert and I, and we hated the place.

8 Mr. Jenner. That was a very short period of time?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; because we hated the place.

Mr. Jenner. I will get to that in a moment.

Mr. Pic. I don't know whether it was before Washington or after. I think it was before Washington.

Mr. Jenner. Perhaps I can refresh your recollection this way. Your stepfather died in August of 1939. You were then living in the house at the corner of Alvar and Galvez which you recall as Alvez and Galvez.

Do you recall that some months after the death of your father and in the following year, the late winter or early spring, that you moved from that house?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Do you recall a physician by the name of Mancuso?

Mr. Pic. It may or may not be familiar, sir. I don't know.

Mr. Jenner. He was the doctor who delivered Lee, and also the man who rented the house in which you had been living. Do you recall that?

Mr. Pic. No, sir.

Mr. Jenner. You do recall leaving that house in which you had been living at the time of the death of your stepfather?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; sometime afterward.

Mr. Jenner. Do you recall that it was a matter of months and not a matter of years?

Mr. Pic. It had to be months, sir, because I have got something else for 1940 here.

Mr. Jenner. When you moved from the house in which you had been living at the time of the death of your stepfather, do you recall moving to 1242 Congress Street?

Mr. Pic. No, sir. I remember moving to a Bartholomew Street.

Mr. Jenner. That Bartholomew Street, I will get to that in a moment, perhaps to refresh your recollection was a little house that your mother purchased on contract.

Mr. Pic. What, Bartholomew?

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mr. Pic. I remember that house.

Mr. Jenner. 1010 Bartholomew.

Mr. Pic. That could be it, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Before you moved to 1010 Bartholomew you lived, did you not, at 1242 Congress?

Mr. Pic. I don't remember, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Your mother didn't sell the Alvar Street house until January of 1944.

Mr. Pic. I thought it was sold the day we moved out.

Mr. Jenner. It was rented by Dr. Mancuso the day you moved out, and ultimately your mother regained possession in January 1944, and he then purchased that house substantially contemporaneously, in January of 1944.

Mr. Pic. Can I ask you a question?

Mr. Jenner. Yes, sir.

Mr. Pic. Being Mr. Oswald was in the insurance business, and being I was rather young, how did he leave her, I have no idea.

Mr. Jenner. Well, I will answer that question. You tell me what you thought at the time and what your impression now is.

Mr. Pic. Well, he didn't leave her much is what I was told.

Mr. Jenner. Was that the feeling you had at the time?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Well, he did leave a small insurance policy, and the house on Alvar, on the corner of Alvar and Galvez, which was being purchased under contract, and that is about all.

I take it, it is your recollection, Sergeant, that when you and your mother and Robert and Lee, who was then an infant child, just a few months old, left the house on 2109 Alvar you entered some institution.

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And what is your recollection of that institution?

Mr. Pic. I believe it was in Gretna, La.

9 Mr. Jenner. Spell that for the reporter.

Mr. Pic. G-r-e-t-n-a, a whole bunch of little towns right across the river from New Orleans, West Wego, and a couple of others, that was one of these, I think it was Gretna, it might be in one of that group.

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mr. Pic. And the name of the school was Infant Jesus College and it was a Catholic school, sir. And us not being Catholics they lowered the boom on us.

Mr. Jenner. That would be you and your brother?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And you were at that time just about 8 years old. Was it before your 8th birthday or what?

Mr. Pic. I wouldn't remember that, sir.

Mr. Jenner. It was in 1940, however?

Mr. Pic. I thought it was in the end of 1939. It is either the end of 1939 or early 1940.

Mr. Jenner. Is it your recollection that——

Mr. Pic. We were still living on Alvez and Galvez when we went to that school.

Mr. Jenner. All right. That is what I wanted to straighten out.

Your mother put you and Robert in the Catholic boarding school before the family actually moved out of the 2109 Alvar home?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. All right. How long were you boys at that Catholic institution?

Mr. Pic. My best recollection is that it was to the end of the school year, 1940.

Mr. Jenner. That would be the summer of 1940?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. All right. Your mother was not working at that time, was she?

Mr. Pic. As far as I know; no, sir.

Mr. Jenner. What is your recollection as to why you were placed in that institution inasmuch as your mother was not working, and at that time you were still living or she was, with Lee at 2109 Alvar?

Mr. Pic. My impression then, sir; I don't know, I can give you my impressions now——

Mr. Jenner. Are these impressions that you are about to give me and I do want you to give them to me, gathered from recollection of the course of events over a period of years?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. All right. Based on discussions in the family over a period of years?

Mr. Pic. Based mainly on experiences in contact with my mother over a period of years, sir.

Mr. Jenner. All right; tell us about them.

Mr. Pic. I think it was probably because it was cheaper to maintain Robert and I over at this school than it was to maintain us at home. I mean we boarded there, they fed us, went to school. I don't know what the fee was but this was the impression I have now.

Mr. Jenner. While you boys were at the Catholic school, did your mother and Lee leave, if you have a recollection of this, the 2109 Alvar home? This would be sometime between the first of January 1940, and the time you finished the second semester, let us say.

Mr. Pic. If this house between Alvez and Bartholomew is a green house.

Mr. Jenner. Green?

Mr. Pic. Green, I can remember it. You can tell me if it was green, I don't know, sir. I remember a green house somewhere in this time period.

Mr. Jenner. Let me get at that this way. You and Robert were lodged eventually in the Bethlehem——

Mr. Pic. Bethlehem Orphans Home, somewhere on St. Peters Street, New Orleans. I think this was in 1942, though, this happened.

Mr. Jenner. Evangelical Lutheran Bethlehem Orphan Asylum.

Mr. Pic. Right. That is the name.

Mr. Jenner. Known as the Bethlehem Children's Home?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

10 Mr. Jenner. And—all right, now, you entered there on the 3d of January 1942. Is that your recollection?

Mr. Pic. That is my recollection.

Mr. Jenner. The winter of 1942?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; I know it was a little bit after the war was declared.

Mr. Jenner. All right. Now, taking that date, January 1942, and going back——

Mr. Pic. OK.

Mr. Jenner. To the end of the school year in 1940——

Mr. Pic. Well, the school in September 1940—I think I put in about a year and a half in this Washington Elementary School after we were taken out of Infant Jesus College.

Mr. Jenner. At that time didn't you live at 1242 Congress Street in New Orleans?

Mr. Pic. Sir, if you have a map of New Orleans and show me where this is maybe I can remember, but I don't remember anything but Bartholomew.

Mr. Jenner. For the purposes of refreshing your recollection the records of the public school system of New Orleans reflect the following: that you were enrolled at William Frantz School located at 3811 North Galvez when you were 4 years old on September 16, 1936. You continued there thereafter until September 5, 1940.

Mr. Pic. September 1940.

Mr. Jenner. These records would show that you were discharged from the William Frantz Elementary School on January 2, 1940.

Mr. Pic. That is better.

Mr. Jenner. And that you reentered William Frantz on September 5, 1940, and you transferred to George Washington Elementary School on November 12, 1940.

At the time of the transfer you lived at 1242 Congress Street. Your mother purchased the house at 1010 Bartholomew on the 5th of March 1941. And she sold it on the 16th of January 1942.

With that information, does that serve to refresh your recollection that the course of circumstances might have been these. I will state them and then you correct me. I don't want you to take my word for it but this is solely for the purpose of refreshing your recollection, if it does refresh your recollection.

Your stepfather died in August of 1939. In the winter of 1940, early, sometime in January 1940, your mother took you and your brother, Robert, out of school, you were in the William Frantz Elementary School at that time, and placed you in the Catholic school.

Mr. Pic. I think prior or right after this Catholic school there was another school which was in downtown New Orleans. It was a day school. She would bring us there in the morning and take us home at night. I don't remember too much. We didn't stay there very long.

Mr. Jenner. It is your definite recollection, however, that you were at the Catholic orphanage school in the winter of 1940, which would be approximately 5 months after the death of your stepfather.

Mr. Pic. No, sir; I don't make that statement. I make the statement that it is my definite recollection I was in the Infant Jesus College School while we lived in this house on Alvez. What months these were, sir, I don't know.

Mr. Jenner. And it is the best of your recollection at the present time that that was the school period ending in the summer of 1940?

Mr. Pic. I think so, sir.

Mr. Jenner. What is your recollection as to the school you attended commencing the school year September 1940? Did you return to William Frantz?

Mr. Pic. I went to George Washington—if I was there at William Frantz, I don't remember. Well, the dates you give me it would be——

Mr. Jenner. A short time?

Mr. Pic. Right. I remember George Washington.

Mr. Jenner. Were you living at home at that time?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Was that 1242 Congress?

Mr. Pic. I don't know, sir.

11 Mr. Jenner. Would a map of New Orleans help you any?

Mr. Pic. Possible; I don't remember this Congress, I remember a green house, this was a green house I remember. What street it was on, I don't know. But I do remember something about a green house.

Mr. Jenner. Was it in the French quarter, in the old city?

Mr. Pic. The way I remember the French quarter is down in here somewhere, and this is certainly not the French quarter. Here is this Gretna. It may be in Algiers that Infant Jesus, one of these two, either Gretna or Algiers. I think it was Gretna.

Mr. Jenner. Your mother said it was Algiers, and there is evidence that it was located in Algiers.

Mr. Pic. OK, sir; Algiers. I know it was across the river.

Mr. Jenner. You do have a recollection, however, of living in a house on Bartholomew?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Do you happen to remember, you don't remember now the exact address?

Mr. Pic. No, sir.

Mr. Jenner. It was at 1010 Bartholomew. Did you live in the 1010 Bartholomew house?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Was it before or during, or when was it with respect to when you and Robert entered the Bethlehem Orphanage?

Mr. Pic. We was living there when I went to Washington.

Mr. Jenner. George Washington Elementary School at 3810 St. Cloud?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Our records show your mother purchased the 1010 Bartholomew property in March of 1941, March 9 to be exact.

Mr. Pic. When I was at Infant Jesus College, I couldn't very well remember that Congress Street because I probably—we wasn't living there.

Mr. Jenner. You weren't living——

Mr. Pic. At home.

Mr. Jenner. No.

Mr. Pic. So, I am afraid I can't remember that Congress Street address. I remember a green house.

Mr. Jenner. A green house.

Mr. Pic. Yes; that is about the best I can do.

Mr. Jenner. In any event it was a house different from or other than the 2109 Alvar?

Mr. Pic. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Jenner. In which you were living at the time of the death of your stepfather?

Mr. Pic. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. That is good enough. You remember being with your brother Robert in the Bethlehem Orphanage?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And your initial utterance voluntarily was that you entered there in 1942.

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; it was right after the war.

Mr. Jenner. The records show that it was in the month of January 1942. You were then 10 years old so you might have some reasonable recollection of it. Tell us the circumstances and what you understand about it.

Mr. Pic. Well, while we lived on this Bartholomew Street my mother opened in the front room a little store called Oswald's Notion Shop. I think she sold spools of thread and needles and things like this.

Mr. Jenner. Did she sell any sweets or candy for children?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; I remember we used to go in there and swipe it.

Mr. Jenner. Was your mother working at that time other than managing or operating this little notions and sweet shop?

Mr. Pic. Not that I remember, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And it was in a segment of the home at 1010 Bartholomew?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; it was the very front room.

12 Mr. Jenner. And you boys were then attending school where?

Mr. Pic. Washington.

Mr. Jenner. When I say you boys, it is your brother Robert and yourself.

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; I am sure Robert was attending school then. It was Washington.

Mr. Jenner. Yes. Your brother Robert entered grammar school on September 8, 1938. That was William Frantz so he was of school age at the time we are talking about.

Describe that little house to us on Bartholomew. Was it a new house?

Mr. Pic. No, sir; it wasn't new. I guess it had about a minimum of two bedrooms, rather large back yard. We had a dog, and the dog's name was Sunshine. There was a fence ran down it. I remember the house.

Mr. Jenner. Was it a nice neighborhood?

Mr. Pic. It wasn't as nice as Alvez and Galvez.

Mr. Jenner. At that time. I see. Now, you lead me to ask something I should have asked heretofore, tell me about the neighborhood at 2109 Alvar. What do you recall about that?

Mr. Pic. They were all brand new houses. In fact, I think we were the first ones to move in on the street, and most of the other ones were under construction there. William Frantz was building a new school. It was a rather nice neighborhood. Middle income, I guess, at that time.

Mr. Jenner. And the 1010 Bartholomew home was not as new and the neighborhood was not quite the same as at 2109 Alvar, but what kind of a neighborhood was it? Was it a reasonably nice place, area? You describe it. Don't ever let me put words in your mouth.

Mr. Pic. Well, digging back in my sociology courses, I would say it was upper-lower class, if there is such a classification.

Mr. Jenner. Do you remember any neighbors at 1010 Bartholomew?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; there was a milkman, his name was Bud. Right on the other corner from Bartholomew, on St. Cloud was a theater, I think was called the Nola, and he lived behind this theater, he was our milkman, and my mother and his wife and him were rather friendly, and we used to go on trips on the weekends to the parks and things like this.

Mr. Jenner. Now, I ask you again what you recall to have been the circumstances under which you entered the Bethlehem Orphanage, you and your brother Robert?

Mr. Pic. I can only give you impressions, I have now, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Are these impressions that you gained now, gained from an attempt to refresh your recollection?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. As to the circumstances at that time?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. All right.

Mr. Pic. I think properly the notion store wasn't a booming business, and she had to go to work and since we were reminded we were orphans all the time, the right place to be would be in an orphan home.

Mr. Jenner. Your mother did remind you repeatedly that you were orphans?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. That sort of thing. Would you elaborate on that, please?

Mr. Pic. Well, sir; she constantly reminded us we were orphans, that she didn't have the money to support us in everything, and she opened a notion store to make money, and she wasn't making money, and I remember she closed it and went to work at about the same time that we entered Bethlehem.

Mr. Jenner. In January 1942, Lee was a little over 2 years old, is that correct; he was born October 1939.

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. You were then 10 and your brother Robert was 8, I am talking about approximate ages now.

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. I think you entered Bethlehem before your tenth birthday.

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

13 Mr. Jenner. And a few months before his eighth birthday. Did Lee eventually join you at Bethlehem?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; he did. The exact date I don't remember. I know he was there for only a matter of months. He wasn't there as long as Robert and I was.

Mr. Jenner. I show you a document I will have marked as John Pic Exhibit No. 2, please, for purposes of identification which appears to be a Xerox reproduction of an application blank executed by Mrs. Marguerite Oswald and related minutes for admission of Lee Oswald to the Evangelical Lutheran Bethlehem Orphan Asylum Association, dated at New Orleans, December 26, 1942, and showing entry of Lee Oswald into the orphanage asylum on the 26th day of December 1942.

(John Pic Exhibit No. 2 was marked for identification.)

Mr. Jenner. Sergeant, I direct your attention to the line on which appears what purports to be the signature of "Mrs. Marguerite Oswald." You are familiar with the handwriting, are you not?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Of your mother Marguerite?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And with her signature?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Drawing on that familiarity, is that signature the signature of your mother?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. I offer in evidence the document now identified as John Pic Exhibit No. 2.

Having done that, Sergeant, does that refresh your recollection as to the time when your brother Lee Oswald was admitted to the orphanage asylum?

Mr. Pic. No, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Do you recall it to have been sometime in late 1942 or thereabout?

Mr. Pic. No, sir.

Mr. Jenner. What is your recollection as to when he was—he joined you at the orphan asylum.

Mr. Pic. I remember we were there a while, sir. He came, and to the best of my recollection he didn't stay but 6 months at the longest, and left again. I don't think—he wasn't there as long as we were.

Mr. Jenner. I direct your attention, Sergeant, to the fact your mother has listed on this application her address as 111 Sherwood Forest Drive.

Mr. Pic. That address is familiar to me. Sherwood Forest Drive part of it, the numbers are not.

Mr. Jenner. I wouldn't expect you to remember the exact number but the street you do recall?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; I do. In fact, the Murrets lived on the same street.

Mr. Jenner. Is it your impression then that the address of 111 Sherwood Forest Drive was probably the address of the Murrets?

Mr. Pic. No, sir; I wouldn't say that.

Mr. Jenner. Do you recall your mother moving out of 1010 Bartholomew?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And so that it is your recollection that sometime between your entry into the Bethlehem Orphanage at which time the family lived at 1010 Bartholomew, that your mother and Lee or at least your mother left, it must have been your mother and Lee, left the 1010 Bartholomew residence and moved to another home on Sherwood Drive?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Tell us about that. You put it in sequence as best you can.

Mr. Pic. If there was anything between Bartholomew and Sherwood Forest Drive, I don't remember, sir. I do remember the Sherwood Forest Drive house, and if I remember right it was three or four doors down from the Murrets.

Mr. Jenner. Where would that be in your recollection with respect to Bartholomew?

14 Mr. Pic. Oh, that is way across town, sir. That is in the city park area. In fact, it was only a block from city park.

Mr. Jenner. And Lee was then—your mother had him with her because at this time, December 1942, he was just a little over 3 years old.

Mr. Pic. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. The records show that the 1010 Bartholomew home was sold on the 16th of January 1942. Does that refresh your recollection as to sequence that prior to her sale of the house she moved out of the house and over to Sherwood Drive and the placing of you boys in the Bethlehem orphanage school was all part of the picture? She sold the Bartholomew house, entered you boys in the orphanage in January 1942.

Mr. Pic. You want to know if I think she sold the house before we were placed in the home?

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mr. Pic. I don't know, sir.

Mr. Jenner. But after you were in the home, that is the Bethlehem Orphanage Home that house was disposed of in some fashion at least?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And she moved into another house on Sherwood Drive?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. By the way, do you remember anybody, an uncle of yours by the name of John Oswald?

Mr. Pic. No, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Or——

Mr. Pic. I remember an uncle on my stepfather's side. I don't recall his name, sir.

Mr. Jenner. W. S. Oswald, is that familiar to you?

Mr. Pic. No, sir.

Mr. Jenner. But other than an uncle on your stepfather's side, that is you don't recall his name, his first name?

Mr. Pic. No, sir.

Mr. Jenner. His name was Oswald, though?

Mr. Pic. I know it was on his side, sir. It may have been his sister, I don't know. Maybe his brother-in-law.

Mr. Jenner. But you don't know.

I will identify as John Pic Exhibit No. 3 another application blank, this one dated January 3, 1942, for admission of Robert Edward Oswald, Jr., to the Evangelical Lutheran Bethlehem Orphan Asylum, which is dated January 3, 1942, and direct you, Sergeant to the signature appearing on that exhibit reading "Mrs. Lee Oswald." Are you familiar with that signature?

Mr. Pic. That is the first time I have ever seen her use the word "Lee."

Mr. Jenner. But the handwriting; that is her handwriting?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. I offer in evidence a document now identified as John Pic Exhibit No. 3.

(John Pic Exhibit No. 3 was marked for identification.)

Mr. Jenner. Now, directing your attention to that exhibit which shows the entry of your brother Robert in the orphanage asylum on January 3, 1942, is it a fact that you and your brother Robert entered the asylum at the same time?

Mr. Pic. To the best of my recollection, yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. I direct your attention to this. There appears in the line designated "mother" written in longhand Marguerite Claverie Oswald, address, 1010 Bartholomew, and then right above it there is written 831 Pauline Street—January 28.

Do you recall your mother moving with Lee to a place on Pauline Street in January of 1942?

Mr. Pic. No, sir.

Mr. Jenner. All you recall is that she and Lee did move to a place, another place from the 1010 Bartholomew address?

Mr. Pic. Well, it shows it there. I thought it was Sherwood Forest, I don't know.

Mr. Jenner. It might have been shortly after that?

15 Mr. Pic. This is not familiar at all, sir.

Mr. Jenner. That is the 831 Pauline Street address is not at all familiar?

Mr. Pic. No, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Is any of this application blank, that is any of the longhand on it, in the hand of your mother other than her signature?

Mr. Pic. I wouldn't know, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Your religion is Lutheran, is it not?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And you were baptized in the Lutheran church, were you not?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Your recollection is that your brother Lee was taken from the orphanage home before you and Robert were?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. You were released in June of 1944?

Mr. Pic. I have—I may have. If you say it was June, sir, OK. It was May or June.

Mr. Jenner. May or June of 1944. And does it refresh your recollection that your brother Lee was released from that home the previous January, as a matter of fact on——

Mr. Pic. He didn't go when we went and he didn't leave, all I know is he didn't enter when we entered and he didn't leave when we left. It was between those periods the best I can state.

Mr. Jenner. The record (Pic Exhibit) shows he was released from the home on the 19th of January, 1944 (Pic Exhibit No. 2A), and that he entered the home on the 26th of December, 1942 (Pic Exhibit No. 2).

So he was there 2 years.

Mr. Pic. No, sir; that is not right.

Mr. Jenner. That doesn't square with your recollection, you mean?

Mr. Pic. No, sir. He may have been in and out of there off and on but he didn't spend full time there that long. You see she may have pulled him out there for a couple of weeks to stay with the Murrets, and things or even longer and still have him charged against Bethlehem.

Mr. Jenner. I misspoke when I said 2 years. It would be the period from December 26, 1942, to January 29, 1944, which is 1 year and 1 month.

Mr. Pic. No, sir; that would only be a year and 1 month.

Mr. Jenner. For the record then that span of time for your brother between January 29, 1944, when he was released, and December 26, 1942, when he entered is approximately 13 months.

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. That is about what you remember, isn't it?

Mr. Pic. Well, I remember it about 6 months. But I guess that is right. I know he wasn't in there a full 13 months at a clip. He was in and out of there in 13 months. At that school if your parents wanted to take you home for a couple or 3 weeks they took you home for a couple or 3 weeks.

Mr. Jenner. And you do remember your mother did that?

Mr. Pic. Sure, I am sure he stayed at the Murrets also.

Mr. Jenner. Well, the Murrets recall that. Now, I show you an exhibit which we will identify as John Pic Exhibit No. 4 which for purposes of identification is a Xerox duplication of a letter from Mrs. Marguerite Oswald to the Reverend Harold of the Evangelical Lutheran Orphanage Asylum dated February 1, 1945, addressed 4801 Victor, Dallas, Tex.

It is in longhand. Would you please examine it for the purpose of answering a question I will put to you as to whether it is in the handwriting of your mother?

Mr. Pic. It appears to me, sir; to be her handwriting.

Mr. Jenner. I offer in evidence John Pic Exhibit No. 4.

(John Pic Exhibit No. 4 was marked for identification.)

Mr. Jenner. I have marked as John Pic Exhibit No. 5 another application for admission to Evangelical Lutheran Bethlehem Orphan Asylum Association dated December 23, 1942, for the admission of John Edward Pic and Robert Oswald to that orphanage, but the information on the application is confined to John Edward Pic.

16 Unfortunately, Mr. Pic, this application, for some reason by oversight was not signed by your mother. Do you remember a pastor by the name of Rev. J. H. Nau?

Mr. Pic. No, sir.

Mr. Jenner. At the Redeemer Lutheran Church?

Mr. Pic. No, sir.

Mr. Jenner. By the way, Mr. Reporter, for purposes of the record, there appears on this application the fact that the marriage of Sergeant Pic's mother Marguerite and his father Edward John Pic, Jr. was at Gulfport, La.

Mr. Pic. Mississippi.

Mr. Jenner. No, it says Gulfport, La. here and should have been Gulfport, Miss.?

Mr. Pic. Yes; Mississippi.

Mr. Jenner. Do you remember a pastor by the name of Reverend Scherer?

Mr. Pic. No, sir.

Mr. Jenner. The Trinity Evangelical Church.

Mr. Pic. No, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Do you remember a Rev. M. R. Lecron?

Mr. Pic. No, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Of the Redeemer Church?

Mr. Pic. No, sir.

Mr. Jenner. By the way, all you boys were christened in the Lutheran church, faith, were you not?

Mr. Pic. I don't know or remember if Lee was. I don't know about Lee.

Mr. Jenner. The record of the Bethlehem Children's Home show that he was baptized by the Rev. M. R. Lecron of the Redeemer Lutheran Church. The exact date, however, is not given.

Mr. Pic. They even have his birthday wrong there.

Mr. Jenner. 1 day. They have it as the 19th whereas it was 18th. As a matter of fact, your mother on one of her papers fixes it on the 19th.

Mr. Pic. So does one of the letters.

Mr. Jenner. I offer John Pic Exhibit No. 5 in evidence.

(John Pic Exhibit No. 5 was marked for identification.)

Mr. Jenner. We will adjourn now and reconvene at 3 o'clock.

(Whereupon, at 12:25 p.m., the proceeding was recessed.)


TESTIMONY OF JOHN EDWARD PIC RESUMED

The proceeding was reconvened at 3:25 p.m.

Mr. Jenner. All right, Sergeant.

Do you recall along about this time that you were in the Bethlehem Orphanage your mother became acquainted with a man by the name of E. A. Ekdahl and subsequently married?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And it was about this time, around 1944, that you boys were withdrawn from the Bethlehem Orphanage and taken to Texas?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Now, I will go back a little bit because I want you to put it in sequence. Before we adjourned for noon recess, I covered the matter of the period of the birth of Lee, the death of your stepfather Lee Oswald, and then brought you up to the Bethlehem School and stopped there.

To the extent you have impressions commencing with, let us say, your entry into grammar school, at that time your stepfather Lee Oswald was alive.

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. You were, when you entered grammar school that was kindergarten you were only four and half years old.

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Do you recall moving from place to place before you finally settled in——

Mr. Pic. I just remember one residence prior to Alvez and Galvez.

Mr. Jenner. I see.

17 Mr. Pic. Where that would have been, I don't remember.

Mr. Jenner. OK. But you sort of settled down in 2109 Alvar?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. That your stepfather had purchased that home in 1938?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And then you went along, he died about a year and a half later after he purchased it.

Take us from the time that your stepfather died and tell us your impressions of how the home life changed; if it did change, what effect, if any, you observed that you now can recall that circumstances had on your mother; and what kind of life you and the boys began to lead as distinguished from the life you led while your stepfather was alive if there is any change now.

I don't want to put any words in your mouth.

Mr. Pic. Well, we were from the time of his death, placed in two boarding schools prior to Bethlehem, this Infant Jesus, and the other one I don't recall the name of, the other one being a day school.

Mr. Jenner. Sort of a day school, your mother took you in the morning and brought you back. That is two of the boys, not Lee?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. He was almost a suckling child?

Mr. Pic. I don't remember. I don't see how he could have been there.

Now this day school was prior to Infant Jesus, it had to be. We went to Infant Jesus and out of there back home for a year or so where we attended Washington and then into Bethlehem.

Like I said before, we were constantly reminded we were orphans and had financial difficulty.

Mr. Jenner. Excuse me, sir; when you just talked about Washington and Bethlehem you put Washington before Bethlehem, and this morning you put Washington into Bethlehem.

Mr. Pic. No, sir; we went to Washington before Bethlehem.

Mr. Jenner. I think you will find that the record of this morning, I am pretty sure, will show a different sequence. That is your impression, that you went into Bethlehem a few months after your stepfather died?

Mr. Pic. No, sir; Infant Jesus.

Mr. Jenner. Infant Jesus. I see. Go ahead. You are right.

Mr. Pic. We were constantly reminded we were orphans and there were financial difficulties, and I was rather young, I don't remember too much about this, but it was always something to do about money problems. We kind of liked Infant Jesus, it wasn't bad at all. We had a pretty good childhood while we lived on Bartholomew Street, there were no major problems there. And even at Bethlehem we both, Robert and I enjoyed Bethlehem. I mean we were all there with the kids with the same problems, same age groups, and everything. Things for myself became worse when Lee came there, that is why I know he wasn't there too long.

Mr. Jenner. Tell us about it?

Mr. Pic. At Bethlehem they had a ruling that if you had a younger brother or sister there they had bowel movements in their pants the older brothers would clean them up, and they would yank me out of classes in school to go do this and, of course, this peeved me very much, and I wasn't but 10 or 9 or 11.

Mr. Jenner. He was only 3 years old?

Mr. Pic. Yes; but I was 10. And they did quite a few things like this. If there was an older brother or sister there they had to take care of the younger child. The people there didn't all the time.

Mr. Jenner. Was this 7-year spread as the years went on between you and Lee, did that affect your relationship with him as distinguished from your relationship with your brother Robert who was only 2 years younger?

Mr. Pic. Well, anything I was involved in Robert always was. Lee was left out because of the age difference. Robert and I went to all these homes together and all the schools together. Lee didn't, of course.

Mr. Jenner. During the course of the years your companions and friends, I assume were different, that is you and Robert on the one hand?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

18 Mr. Jenner. And Lee on the other?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. His life differed a little from yours too, didn't it, that is at the outset of this early period your mother, except for this period at Bethlehem, when he was there, except for his being withdrawn for a few weeks at a time, he was largely with her?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Living with her?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And did she express problems on her part with him?

Mr. Pic. Well, she referred how would she work and take care of a child and things like this, both. It would seem that the problem with Robert and I was easier to solve than the problem with Lee.

Mr. Jenner. I interrupted you. Go ahead with your account.

Mr. Pic. Well, up until we left Bethlehem, I can only recall three places of employment for Mrs. Oswald, one being Oswald's notion store which was 1941–42, thereabouts.

Mr. Jenner. While you had the Bethlehem house?

Mr. Pic. No; that was before Bethlehem.

Mr. Jenner. I don't mean Bethlehem, Bartholomew Street?

Mr. Pic. Yes; after we were placed in Bethlehem she was a manager of Princess Hosiery on Canal Street and Pittsburgh Plate and Glass Co., I don't remember which one came first.

Mr. Jenner. Myrtle Evans referred to Pittsburgh Plate and Lillian Murret referred to Pittsburgh Plate. You do recall that?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; in fact, I think at the time she worked at Pittsburgh Plate she was going with Mr. Ekdahl. In fact, I think I remember him driving us over there or something once.

Mr. Jenner. When you were at Bethlehem, did your Aunt Lillian ever have occasion to visit?

Mr. Pic. She never visited us that I recall. We visited her many times.

Mr. Jenner. While you were at Bethlehem?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Do you recall Myrtle Evans visiting on any occasion?

Mr. Pic. I don't remember. Wait a minute. Myrtle Evans, is she kind of heavy?

Mr. Jenner. She is now.

Mr. Pic. She was then too, that is the same one.

Mr. Jenner. Energetic?

Mr. Pic. Yes; I remember a Myrtle.

Mr. Jenner. She had taken some accounting and——

Mr. Pic. The name is familiar, sir. I can't place the lady.

Mr. Jenner. She had been a girl friend of your mother's?

Mr. Pic. Yes; I wouldn't speculate whether she visited us or not at Bethlehem, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Do you remember the Evanses coming over to see you when you were at Covington, one time?

Mr. Pic. I don't recollect, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Do you recollect Myrtle Evans coming and visiting when you first went to Texas?

Mr. Pic. Sir; I don't remember Myrtle Evans that much. The name Myrtle is familiar to me. Just like this woman that worked at Holmes for 30 years is familiar to me. Where I had seen her and different places?

Mr. Jenner. H-o-l-m-e-s?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; this is a department store in New Orleans.

Mr. Jenner. Of course you would recall the Murret family.

Mr. Pic. Yes; I recall them very good.

Mr. Jenner. There were a couple of those children about your age and Robert's, is that right?

Mr. Pic. I can only—let's see, Charles, there is Marilyn and Charles.

Mr. Jenner. Marilyn is the youngest?

Mr. Pic. Marilyn is the youngest, no, sir; Boogie is the youngest.

19 Mr. Jenner. B-o-o-g-i-e?

Mr. Pic. What is he doing now. I heard he was playing semipro ball.

Mr. Jenner. No. He is not doing that any more. Is Boogie John?

Mr. Pic. No, sir; I think——

Mr. Jenner. One is a dentist, one is with Squibb, Gene is a seminarian.

Mr. Pic. Gene is the priest. Gene is the one who is my age or thereabouts. Boogie was closer to Robert's age.

Mr. Jenner. She had five children?

Mr. Pic. Right.

Mr. Jenner. Marilyn.

Mr. Pic. Joyce.

Mr. Jenner. Marilyn, Joyce, John, Gene——

Mr. Pic. Charles.

Mr. Jenner. And Charles. They are all alive?

Mr. Pic. Right.

Mr. Jenner. That was a fairly lively family, apparently all nice people.

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; we enjoyed going there very much.

Mr. Jenner. How did Lee get along with them?

Mr. Pic. Well, I don't know how he got along with them. I know he was placed there several times to stay for a while. I don't know if the people resented this or was glad to have him or not.

Mr. Jenner. Well, they were glad to have him. They appeared to me to be generous people.

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir. We always could count on our uncle for a dollar or two.

Mr. Jenner. Yes. I take it from the questions I asked you this morning that you had little or no contact with your stepfather's family, with the Oswald family?

Mr. Pic. There was no contact that I remember at all, sir, after his death. Prior to his death, there was quite a bit of contact from what I remember. I remember maybe it was his mother, grandmother we would visit. He had this other Oswald who was either a brother or sister or something, we visited these people. I remember the older woman we visited always gave us kids, including me, it was just Robert and I, a whole bunch of toys for Christmas every Christmas. But after his death, there was no contact at all, sir.

Mr. Jenner. What is your impression as to why that took place?

Mr. Pic. I will speculate and say that——

Mr. Jenner. Give me the impression you have rather than speculate.

Mr. Pic. They couldn't get along with Mrs. Oswald.

Mr. Jenner. With your mother?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Do you recall an incident, sergeant, when your mother went to work in 1942, and she had a couple, a Mr. and Mrs. Roach taking care of Lee who was then——

Mr. Pic. What was Roach's first name, sir?

Mr. Jenner. Thomas.

Mr. Pic. What street did he live on?

Mr. Jenner. 831 Pauline.

Mr. Pic. No, sir; I don't. The only one I could think of that may have taken care of Lee was this milkman Bud and his wife.

Mr. Jenner. To help refresh your recollection, it is a fact that your mother lived with Lee at 831 Pauline Street in 1942, and a couple present there by the name of Mr. and Mrs. Thomas Roach, Thomas and Dora Roach. They had been living on de Lessups Street in New Orleans, in the 800 block.

Mr. Pic. No, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And moved into 831 Pauline, or your mother moved into 831 Pauline Street with them. There was a whole question as to who was the renter, whether it was the Roaches or your mother?

Mr. Pic. No, sir; this I don't recall at all.

Mr. Jenner. And it wasn't long after they were there that some difficulty arose with respect to Lee and that ended that. It was about 6 weeks or a month, 2 months. But you have no recollection of that?

Mr. Pic. No, sir.

20 Mr. Jenner. All right. The question I asked you and which I keep interrupting in was to give me your impressions of change, if any, with the coming of the death of your stepfather, and you were in the course of recounting that.

Mr. Pic. Well, it struck me or it strikes me that we became lower and lower in the class structure.

Mr. Jenner. As your financial status——

Mr. Pic. And our class structure, both.

Mr. Jenner. Would you elaborate on that? Your financial status went down?

Mr. Pic. Right.

Mr. Jenner. And then you say lower in the class structure?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Tell me about that?

Mr. Pic. I would say we were in the middle classes while we lived on Alvez.

Mr. Jenner. While your father was alive?

Mr. Pic. And, being we moved to Bartholomew, and being in orphan homes, I think we went to the upper lower class, one class structure dropped, two class structures dropped, something like that.

Mr. Jenner. Were you conscious of that even as a 10-year-old?

Mr. Pic. Well, I realized that we weren't living as good as we used to, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Go ahead.

Mr. Pic. Well, once we were placed in an orphan home, and we were with our own kind, so to speak. I had no feelings whatsoever. I mean, we enjoyed that place. They were rather strict but we enjoyed it. We had quite a bit of freedom even though they were strict. We would sneak out of the place at night and do all kinds of childish things. But Robert and I enjoyed it.

Mr. Jenner. I am thinking more of your relations with your mother. Was her personality affected by the death of your stepfather?

Mr. Pic. Probably she confided and put to me most of her problems since she didn't have a husband to do this with, always referring to me as the oldest and things like this. When we were in Bethlehem we didn't see that much of her.

Mr. Jenner. I see.

Mr. Pic. Maybe once every 2 weeks, that would be the most often. Maybe once in a while she would drop around.

Mr. Jenner. While you were at Bethlehem did you visit the Murrets?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; several times, lots of times. You see the home once or twice a year, would take us to the city park there in New Orleans. We would get on the rides and naturally the Murrets were right there, and so we would rent bikes for free. It was on the home and I would ride over to their house and visit with them a while, so did Robert. Whenever we had a chance we were more than glad to go there.

Mr. Jenner. While at least through the Bethlehem Orphanage period your present recollection is you accommodated to circumstances and within the limits of the circumstances your impression is that you lived a reasonably happy life?

Mr. Pic. We enjoyed it.

Mr. Jenner. Like all children you accommodated yourself to the circumstances?

Mr. Pic. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Well, I think probably a good new start off point is Mr. Ekdahl. Tell us your recollection of him, what led up, your present recollection of the circumstances which brought him into your lives and when you first were aware of his existence and what your circumstance was at that time, what your mother's was?

Mr. Pic. Okay.

Mr. Jenner. Give times as best you can.

Mr. Pic. If you can date for me when I had my appendix out I can practically date for you Mr. Ekdahl's——

Mr. Jenner. I am afraid I can't. Were you at Bethlehem Orphanage?

Mr. Pic. Yes; I was at Bethlehem so it would be either 1943 or 1944, and I am sure she was at Pittsburgh at that time.

Mr. Jenner. Pittsburgh Plate?

Mr. Pic. Right. And it was right after I had my appendix out that he appeared21 on the scene. And she visited us more often when she was going with him.

Mr. Jenner. And she brought him with her, did she?

Mr. Pic. Yes; he had the car.

Mr. Jenner. By the way, did your mother have an automobile during this period following your stepfather's death?

Mr. Pic. I don't think so, sir.

Mr. Jenner. But Mr. Ekdahl did have an automobile?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; he had a 1938 Buick.

Mr. Jenner. And your mother visited you more often?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. All right.

Mr. Pic. And they on weekends took us to Covington. I remember once, it may have been more.

Mr. Jenner. All right. I wanted to ask you about that. While your stepfather was still alive, did you occasionally visit Covington?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; we did.

Mr. Jenner. Covington, as I understand it, Covington, La., is sort of a summer resort area, is it not?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; it is on the—it is north of New Orleans on the northern shore of Lake Pontchartrain, and the Murrets used to go to Mandeville, which is about 30 miles closer to New Orleans than Covington was, and we used to visit them back and forth during the summer.

Mr. Jenner. Do you recall the names of any of those people that you—whose homes you, the summer resort homes that you rented during the summer period?

Mr. Pic. To the best of my recollection, sir, we were in cabins at these tourist places. We were never at anybody's home. The Murrets were, I believe, at somebody's home in Mandeville. They had a large house there.

Mr. Jenner. Does Mrs. Benny C-o-m-m-a-n-c-e, is that name familiar to you?

Mr. Pic. No, sir.

Mr. Jenner. At 600 West 24th Street, Covington, familiar to you?

Mr. Pic. No, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Does the address 311 Vermont stimulate your recollection over in Covington?

Mr. Pic. No, sir; if it was this time period it doesn't. That may have been the street we lived on when we went there in 1946, I don't know.

Mr. Jenner. All right. I ask you to relate the circumstances respecting Mr. Ekdahl.

Mr. Pic. Well, in June 1944, we were removed from Bethlehem, and——

Mr. Jenner. Did you know about that in advance? Were you aware you were going to be removed and why?

Mr. Pic. I don't remember how much in advance we knew this. We knew maybe a couple of weeks ahead of time.

Mr. Jenner. Or maybe the more important thing is why were you being removed from Bethlehem? What were the circumstances of bringing that about?

Mr. Pic. Well, she was marrying Mr. Ekdahl, and if you had two parents they wouldn't allow you to stay at Bethlehem.

Mr. Jenner. She was not yet married to him?

Mr. Pic. No, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Didn't marry him until the 5th of March 1945?

Mr. Pic. That is about right, sir.

Mr. Jenner. So you were removed in June or May 1944, and the record shows in June. Describe Mr. Ekdahl, please, to the extent you now have a recollection?

Mr. Pic. He was——

Mr. Jenner. Who was he? Who did you understand he was?

Mr. Pic. He was an electrical engineer. His home was in Boston, Mass., somewhere around there. He was described to us as a Yankee, of course. Rather tall, I think he was over 6 feet. He had white hair, wore glasses, very nice man.

Mr. Jenner. Very nice man. I take it he was older than your mother?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; he appeared to be somewhat older, quite a bit.

22 Mr. Jenner. A man of at least, apparently of considerably better means than your mother?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Than you boys had been accustomed to?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. What about his health, what did you understand as to that?

Mr. Pic. I have no recollection of knowing anything about his health at that time, sir.

Mr. Jenner. I see. When you were taken from Bethlehem Orphanage in June of 1944, where did you go?

Mr. Pic. Dallas, Tex., sir.

Mr. Jenner. And do you recall where you lived in Dallas, Tex.?

Mr. Pic. I remember what the house looks like, sir. I don't remember the address. You can probably refresh me on that.

Mr. Jenner. I will do so and I want to make it accurate. 4801 Victor was the address.

Mr. Pic. That sounds familiar.

Mr. Jenner. In Dallas. Would you please describe that 4801 Victor Street home?

Mr. Pic. It was white, two story.

Mr. Jenner. Frame, brick?

Mr. Pic. Frame. I think it contained four apartments, maybe only two. I am pretty sure it was four though, two up and two down. We lived on the lower right, in boxcar-type rooms.

Mr. Jenner. What do you mean by that?

Mr. Pic. Well, railroad style, living room, bedroom, bathroom, bedroom, kitchen.

Mr. Jenner. One lined the other, you mean?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. I see. With a long hallway to connect it; is that it?

Mr. Pic. The hall ran into each room as you walked by it.

Mr. Jenner. Yes; you lived there with your mother, with Lee, and with Robert?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. At the outset?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Mr. Ekdahl did not live with you when you first went to Dallas, Tex.?

Mr. Pic. No, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Do you have any recollection where he lived? First, was he in Dallas?

Mr. Pic. I think he was in Fort Worth, sir. And he used to come over to Dallas to see us. Is that right?

Mr. Jenner. I think that is right. I can't answer.

Mr. Pic. Okay.

Mr. Jenner. That was one of the reasons why I asked my first question.

Mr. Pic. I think that is the way the setup was, sir.

Mr. Jenner. I think that is so but I don't know. He would come over from Fort Worth and visit you?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. You boys, when you reached Dallas in 1944, you entered school, grammar school at that time, did you?

Mr. Pic. Robert—just a moment, sir; I remember I attended a summer school session of the 6th grade. Robert may have. I don't really remember. I think he did.

Mr. Jenner. We are in the summer of 1944?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; we went to summer school. I did, I know. I think he may have.

Mr. Jenner. Do you remember that it was the Davy Crockett——

Mr. Pic. No, sir; it was not the Davy Crockett. It was another school. Davy Crockett is where we entered in September. We meanwhile went to summer school.

23 Mr. Jenner. I see.

Mr. Pic. If you can give me a map of Dallas?

Mr. Jenner. You never heard of it?

Mr. Pic. Give me a map of Texas and I can show you where approximately the school was and I will show you where it was.

Mr. Jenner. You did, after that summer school period in the summer of 1944, enter grammar school in Dallas?

Mr. Pic. That is right. Davy Crockett Elementary School. I entered the 7th grade and Robert entered the 5th.

Mr. Jenner. Let's see, Lee is now almost 5 years old. Did he enter Davy Crockett at that time?

Mr. Pic. To the best of my recollection, no, sir.

Mr. Jenner. At that age he would be going to kindergarten anyhow. All right, you and Robert then entered Davy Crockett?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. You continued on at Davy Crockett in the fall semester?

Mr. Pic. Just a moment.

Mr. Jenner. Yes?

Mr. Pic. This house we went to in Dallas.

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mr. Pic. My mother owned it and rented the rest of it or she owned one side of it.

Mr. Jenner. It was a duplex?

Mr. Pic. Right.

Mr. Jenner. Myrtle Evans testified that she recalled visiting you, the family, on a trip she made to Dallas on one occasion, on a buying trip or something or accompanied a friend of hers, it was on a ladies' apparel buying trip and she remembered it as what she called them, two-place houses. To me they are duplexes.

Mr. Pic. Right; duplex.

Mr. Jenner. So her recollection is fairly good then. Does that affect your recollection that it was a four-apartment building rather than it was a two-apartment building?

Mr. Pic. I am pretty sure it was four apartments.

Mr. Jenner. Okay; go ahead.

Mr. Pic. Well, I was under the impression and always have been that she owned the house, and there was some arrangement with Mr. Ekdahl as to how she got it or something. She was renting to one couple upstairs, I know; is this right?

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mr. Pic. We are in Davy Crockett Elementary School, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Carry on.

Mr. Pic. Well, that would be September 1944. In the summer of 1945 she married Mr. Ekdahl. I think you dated that as March or April.

Mr. Jenner. She married him, in fact, on May 7, 1945. I said March before; I misspoke. It was May 7, 1945.

Mr. Pic. I have got summer. It is pretty good.

Mr. Jenner. Did he then move into the 4801 Victor Place?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; she took a short honeymoon for a day or two and came back and moved in.

Mr. Jenner. In the summer of 1945 did you and Robert continue on at—through that summer in Dallas?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. That following September, however, you transferred to some other school; did you not?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; and we were aware of this school before the school session ended in 1945. I knew before we left Davy Crockett we were going.

Mr. Jenner. What was the name of that?

Mr. Pic. In September 1945, sir, Robert and I entered Chamberlain-Hunt Academy, military school for boys, Port Gibson, Miss.

Mr. Jenner. And you were aware of that—that that was forthcoming?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; as early as May 1945 I think.

24 Mr. Jenner. And what were the circumstances?

Mr. Pic. Mr. Ekdahl had to travel and so we were going to boarding school.

Mr. Jenner. I exhibited to you earlier, and you identified a letter of your mother's dated February 1, 1945, to the Bethlehem Orphanage, John Pic Exhibit No. 4 in which your mother is petitioning the Bethlehem Orphanage for the return of you two boys to the orphanage.

Mr. Pic. I don't think I was aware of this letter.

Mr. Jenner. You were not aware?

Mr. Pic. No, sir.

Mr. Jenner. So circumstances that you can recall now of the possible relationship between your mother and Ekdahl that might have led to her seeking to do this?

Mr. Pic. No, sir.

Mr. Jenner. She says in her letter she is thinking in terms of returning you to Bethlehem because she is going to be traveling with her husband when she does marry him—that is Mr. Ekdahl. There was no discussion in your presence that you can recall on that subject?

Mr. Pic. Not returning to Bethlehem, no, sir; not that I remember. I have to find Victor Street and from there I can just about guess where the school was. I am lost on this map. I can't find Victor Street and where I lived.

Mr. Jenner. Was Davy Crockett Grammar School near your home at 4801 Victor Street?

Mr. Pic. About three blocks, sir. Three long blocks.

Mr. Jenner. Describe that neighborhood to us.

Mr. Pic. I think it would be middle class.

Mr. Jenner. A level up from what you had been accustomed back in New Orleans?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir. There were fine brick homes; in fact, I had a paper route out there that I delivered, and easily middle class. Maybe some upper middle class.

Mr. Jenner. Was your life there pleasant?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And when Mr. Ekdahl moved in were the relationships generally among all, now five of you, pleasant?

Mr. Pic. Between Mr. Ekdahl and the three boys they were pleasant, sir. I think there were some arguments between Mr. Ekdahl and my mother from time to time.

Mr. Jenner. You were aware of those?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir. I am going to need a map with a listing of the schools. This one doesn't seem to have one. This summer school was about a good 2 miles away. We walked it in the morning.

Mr. Jenner. You and Robert?

Mr. Pic. I think me and Robert. We had other friends that we went to school with.

Mr. Jenner. Of course.

Mr. Pic. And there were always a group of us. I don't remember if Robert went or not, sir, to tell you the truth.

Mr. Jenner. I see. When you came around to the fall of 1945, however, you entered the Chamberlain-Hunt Military Academy?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; in fact, the trip to Chamberlain-Hunt was a side trip because Mr. Ekdahl, my mother, and Lee were on their way to Boston to visit his folks. And so they dropped us off at the school and then proceeded to Boston.

Mr. Jenner. Was that a motor trip?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; it was in a 1938 Buick.

Mr. Jenner. You remained at Chamberlain-Hunt Military Academy except for summer vacation, or something of that nature, for how long?

Mr. Pic. Well, sir, you just want a blanket statement. I have got a whole bunch of goodies while I was at Chamberlain-Hunt.

Mr. Jenner. All right. Go ahead.

Mr. Pic. During Christmas vacation of 1945 Robert and I received money to go home for the Christmas holidays. We were to take the train from Vicksburg, Miss., to Shreveport, La. These were instructions and when we arrived at25 Shreveport, we were to wait for Mr. Ekdahl to pick us up. We arrived and he wasn't there. So I think we waited around, I have an estimate of between 1 and 2 hours, and then he showed up. He then drove us to Fort Worth, Benbrook, Tex., and we had a house about 15 miles below Fort Worth in Benbrook, it was way out. It wasn't the same Benbrook house, it was further. This was a brick house.

Mr. Jenner. The first house in Benbrook?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Had you known the family had moved to Benbrook, Tex.?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; because we was writing.

Mr. Jenner. Because of correspondence?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. This was your first view of that house?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Tell us what it was; describe it to us?

Mr. Pic. It was rather isolated on one of the main highways. In fact, I just drove that way recently and I couldn't find the place. When I went up to Fort Worth in 1962 I was looking for the house, I couldn't find it.

Mr. Jenner. Was it Granbury Road, Box 567, Benbrook, Tex.?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; that sounds familiar. This was a brick house, with quite a bit of ground. I think way back they told us that one of the Roosevelt sons had a house out there, that is how I remember. We arrived there sometime the next day or two; my mother quizzed us on why we were so late. One reason we were late besides the wait was the heavy fog, and I informed her we had to wait a while for Mr. Ekdahl, and she kind of hinted to me, I think I was 15 at the time, did I see another woman or was there anything shady about it or something. That is all I have to say about that. She was under the impression years later, she told me that he had met some woman in Shreveport and they were having some fun.

Mr. Jenner. You were in Benbrook, Tex., then for the Christmas holiday?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. You and Robert?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Lee was living with Mr. Ekdahl and your mother at the Benbrook, Tex., home out on the outskirts of Fort Worth; I guess this is——

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. Jenner. And you returned after the Christmas holiday to——

Mr. Pic. It would be January 1946 we returned to, back to Chamberlain-Hunt.

Mr. Jenner. Did you return home at all from then on until the summer of 1946?

Mr. Pic. No, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Where were you during the summer of 1946?

Mr. Pic. In the summer of 1946, Robert and I were informed that we would stay at the academy to attend summer session there. Well, school let out in May and I think summer session starts in June, so there was a waiting period of about 2 to 3 weeks, so we just stayed there. This suited us fine. We really liked the school.

Sometime during that waiting period my mother showed up and informed us that her and Mr. Ekdahl had separated, and she showed up with Lee, of course, and she was going to take us to Covington where we would stay the summer. We had—the commandant of the school was an attorney, and I think she got some legal assistance from him about divorce proceeding or something. She talked to him about it, I know. His name was Farrell, Herbert D. Farrell. He was commandant of the school. Did you ever talk to him?

Mr. Jenner. Not that I know of.

Mr. Pic. A real nice man, too. She had the car.

Mr. Jenner. The 1938 Buick?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir. She had it.

Mr. Jenner. Had she taken a home or a house in Covington?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir. When we arrived there she looked for a house, and there always is one neighborhood two or three blocks from the downtown area that26 we stayed in during the summers and she took a house in this area. That address I don't remember.

Mr. Jenner. Does the address, the street Vermont Street refresh your recollection, 311 Vermont?

Mr. Pic. The only thing I remember about the house is a lady next door was plagued by squirrels throwing nuts on her roof because she was out every morning chasing them with a broom.

Mr. Jenner. The squirrels?

Mr. Pic. The squirrels. This was a one-story brick house, and we lived on the right side.

Mr. Jenner. You stayed there throughout the summer?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Did you return to Chamberlain-Hunt that fall?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; we returned to Chamberlain-Hunt in September 1946. Then for the Christmas holidays, 1946, 1947, we returned to Covington where she and Lee still were, and spent those holidays there. During those holidays we made one trip to New Orleans with this other boy who lived in Covington also that we went to school with, and they were driving to New Orleans so we all bummed a ride and went to New Orleans and visited the Murrets a day or so. I think it was 1 day.

Mr. Jenner. Did your mother accompany you?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Had Lee entered grammar school at this time?

Mr. Pic. I wouldn't know, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Our records show that he entered——

Mr. Pic. He probably did.

Mr. Jenner. He entered in September 19, 1946, and continued to January 23, 1947, old Covington Grammar School.

Mr. Pic. Probably.

Mr. Jenner. Is that your impression at the time that he was in school, he is now 7 years old?

Mr. Pic. I think he had to be in school or they came and got him. My next note says that sometime between January 1947 until May 1947 Mr. Ekdahl and my mother were reunited. Robert and I——

Mr. Jenner. Had she returned to——

Mr. Pic. To Fort Worth. She didn't return to Fort Worth. They moved to Fort Worth. We had never been to Fort Worth before that except in Benbrook.

Mr. Jenner. I see. This was from Benbrook, Tex., to Fort Worth?

Mr. Pic. Right. This address I don't remember, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Does the address 1505 Eighth Avenue, Fort Worth, refresh your recollection?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; that is it.

Mr. Jenner. All right. Go ahead.

Mr. Pic. OK. During that summer her and Mr. Ekdahl had their ins and outs.

Mr. Jenner. You were home?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; I was assistant manager of an ice cream parlor. Now let's go back further than that. When we first got there I got a job for the summer at Walgreen's, and I worked there for a couple of weeks before they fired me.

Mr. Jenner. You are now 15 years old?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir. And while I was working there I met this other boy, his name was Sammy, his last name I don't remember, he was from California. He was working in Walgreen's in Fort Worth, also. So, after I lost my job at Walgreen's I got this other job, assistant manager of Tex-Gold Ice Cream Parlor which was on Eighth Avenue, about 6 blocks from the house.

Mr. Jenner. Describe that house, please.

Mr. Pic. It was the second house from the corner. On the corner lived the McLeans who was an attorney and I think he was her attorney or his brother was her attorney in her divorce proceedings. They had a couple of boys we became friendly with. The house itself was a brick, I remember brick with a garage in the back. I think there was an upstairs or side.

27 Mr. Jenner. Describe the neighborhood, please.

Mr. Pic. I would say it would be middle class.

Mr. Jenner. It was comparable to the neighborhood you lived in at 4801 Victor in Dallas?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir. I was assistant manager of this Tex-Gold Ice Cream Parlor.

Mr. Jenner. What was Robert doing?

Mr. Pic. Nothing.

Mr. Jenner. He didn't work?

Mr. Pic. I don't think so.

Mr. Jenner. All right.

Mr. Pic. That is right, he was playing around with girls at that time.

Like I said, my mother and Mr. Ekdahl were having problems. It would seem they would have a fight about every other day and he would leave and come back. Well, it seems one night, as I was returning from work, I think we closed the store about 10 o'clock, Mr. Ekdahl and she drove up and told me that they wouldn't be home that night, that they were going downtown to the Worth Hotel. This was one of their reunions, and this was one of their longer separation periods.

So, I went back and I told Lee and Robert, and this seemed to really elate Lee, this made him really happy that they were getting back together. Mr. Ekdahl, while Robert and I were at the academy would write us, he was a great one for writing poetry. He would send us a poem about ourselves or something, treated us real swell. Well——

Mr. Jenner. I—what is your impression of Mr. Ekdahl, did Lee like him?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. That is your definite impression that he liked him.

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; I think Lee found in him the father he never had. He had treated him real good and I am sure that Lee felt the same way, I know he did. He felt the same way about it, because Mr. Ekdahl treated all of us like his own children.

Mr. Jenner. There appears to be in the file at Chamberlain-Hunt Military Academy a letter from Mr. Ekdahl to your—to you boys dated August 1946, carrying a return address of the Fayette Hotel on Third Street of Fort Worth.

Mr. Pic. I don't know, sir.

Mr. Jenner. This would be at the time when your mother was living in Covington. During that period.

Mr. Pic. I didn't know about it.

Mr. Jenner. You have no recollection of it?

Mr. Pic. I don't know where Mr. Ekdahl was when she was in Covington. I know he was in the Fort Worth-Dallas area is all I knew.

Mr. Jenner. Your mother and Ekdahl, this incident you mentioned, you mentioned that because it impressed you that they were getting back together again, more friendly?

Mr. Pic. No, sir; I mentioned it because it impressed Lee.

Mr. Jenner. I see.

Mr. Pic. I think it impressed him more than it did either of the older boys.

Mr. Jenner. Did anything else occur during that summer?

Mr. Pic. A whole bunch of stuff.

Mr. Jenner. All right. Go ahead.

Mr. Pic. I think this is the same summer when we made the raid. I don't know if you know about the raid or not.

Mr. Jenner. I don't think so.

Mr. Pic. Well, this guy Sammy that I knew had another—knew a couple, a young married couple named Marvin and Goldie, I don't remember their last names, sir, and Sammy and I were friends, Sammy lived in a downtown hotel, and Marvin and Goldie had a house somewhere in the Fort Worth area. So we became friendly the four of us, and then they would come over to my house, and they got to know my mother and everything. Well, after they broke up again, after this last incident.

Mr. Jenner. This is still during the summer of 1947?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; this is still during the summer, my mother had strong suspicions28 that Mr. Ekdahl was seeing another woman and she was following him, I don't know how. I know she had the lead, she knew where the woman lived and everything.

So, one night Marvin, Goldie, Sammy, my mother and I all piled into this young couple's car, went over to these apartments, and Sammy acted as a messenger, and knocked on the door and said, "Telegram" for this woman, whoever she was. I don't remember the name. When she opened the door, my mother pushed her way in, this woman was dressed in a nightgown negligee, Mr. Ekdahl was seated in the living room in his shirt sleeves and she made a big fuss about this. She's got him now and all this stuff. That is about it. Well, that is all to that incident.

In September, Robert—well, in August—Robert and I in September returned to Chamberlain-Hunt, this is September 1947. During the school year 1947–48 I was informed about divorce proceedings. Christmas holidays, 1947, Robert and I returned to the house on Eighth Avenue in Fort Worth and those are the pictures of Lee sitting on the bike, it is in that time period.

Mr. Jenner. Let's identify those. I hand you Pic Exhibit Nos. 52 and 53.

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; this was taken during that time period. This is the front lawn of the house on Eighth Avenue and the white house in the background would be that of the attorney Mr. McLean.

Mr. Jenner. Did you take those pictures?

Mr. Pic. Sir?

Mr. Jenner. Did you take the pictures?

Mr. Pic. My brother Robert and I each had a box camera we received—no, we had the box camera before that. We took it with our box camera.

Mr. Jenner. All right. I offer those exhibits in evidence.

(John Pic Exhibits Nos. 52 and 53 were marked for identification.)

Mr. Jenner. Was Mr. Ekdahl living in the home at that time?

Mr. Pic. We did not see him during those holidays.

Mr. Jenner. You returned to the academy following the Christmas vacation?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And you continued on through the end of that school year, did you?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; to May 1948.

Mr. Jenner. Give me your impressions of Lee, he is now getting to be 8 or 9 years old, his attitudes and course of conduct, and his relationships with other children, either in the neighborhood or at school.

Mr. Pic. Well, sir; when we were home, Robert and I, of course, that was the only time we seen Lee, he would tag along with us to the movies and everything. He did what we did, got in the same trouble we did and so forth. I don't remember observing him with the other children. I had my own problems at the age of 14. We did know that during the school year of 1947–48, divorce proceedings were going to take place shortly.

We returned from Chamberlain-Hunt in May 1948, to a house I don't remember the address of, sir, but we were back down in the lower class again.

Mr. Jenner. The house at——

Mr. Pic. It was right slap next to the railroad tracks.

Mr. Jenner. 3300 Willing Street, Fort Worth.

Mr. Pic. If that is next to the railroad tracks, that is it. I remember we had to listen to the trains going back and forth. She had moved in this house a couple or 3 months prior to us returning from school.

Mr. Jenner. The divorce had taken place in the meantime?

Mr. Pic. No, sir; it had not.

Mr. Jenner. Was Mr. Ekdahl in this lower class house?

Mr. Pic. No, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Did you see him during that summer?

Mr. Pic. No, sir—yes, sir. But not prior to May 1948. I seen him later during the summer.

Mr. Jenner. Yes. You and Robert were home during that summer of 1948, were you?

Mr. Pic. May I continue?

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

29 Mr. Pic. When we returned home I seen this house and my first impressions were that we are back to where we were. Lee had a dog that a woman had given him, I think it is the same dog we have pictures of, and I kind of had the feeling that our days at Chamberlain-Hunt were ended even though it didn't come officially. Then sometime in the summer of 1948, the divorce took place in Tarrant County, city of Fort Worth. I had to testify. I think they attempted to put Lee on the stand but he said that he wouldn't know right from wrong and the truth from a falsehood so they excused him as a witness being he was under age.

I don't remember my testimony completely. I do remember that my mother had made the statement that if Mr. Ekdahl ever hit her again that she would send me in there to beat him up or, something which I doubt that I could have done.

I was told by her that she was contesting the divorce so that he would still support her. She lost, he won. The divorce was granted. I was also told that there was a settlement of about $1,200 and she stated that just about all of this went to the lawyer. Right after this is when she purchased the house in Benbrook, Tex., the little house.

Mr. Jenner. Describe that house.

Mr. Pic. It was an L-shaped house, sir, being the top of the L was her bedroom, bathroom, kitchen, and living room with a screened-in porch. She and Lee slept together. My brother and I slept in the living room in the screened-in porch on studio couches. When we moved into this house and after the divorce and everything became final, I was——

Mr. Jenner. Excuse me, was that 101 San Saba?

Mr. Pic. No, sir; I don't know nothing about 101 San Saba.

Mr. Jenner. Do you recall the street you were on in Benbrook; this first house?

Mr. Pic. There were no streets. We used a post office box number up at the post office there. Because I was sending away for stamps at the time from different companies, and I was collecting stamps and I would go pick up the mail at the post office.

Mr. Jenner. The first house in Benbrook was on Granbury Road, that is your recollection? That is the one you have already mentioned heretofore?

Mr. Pic. Granbury Road is familiar, sir, if that is the one that is way far south of town on Granbury Road, then that is it.

Mr. Jenner. Well, there is a letter in the file at the Hunt Military Academy in October of 1945 informing them that a new address would be Granbury Road, Route 5, Box 567 in Benbrook.

Mr. Pic. That is the one further south of Fort Worth.

Mr. Jenner. That is the first one?

Mr. Pic. Right.

Mr. Jenner. The house you are now mentioning in Benbrook was the summer of 1948 is different from the first one?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; it is.

Mr. Jenner. You can't remember the street address?

Mr. Pic. There was no street address. This was the first and only house built there.

Mr. Jenner. I see.

Mr. Pic. They just built up this area and she got the very first house. Two pictures there, Lee and Lee's dog and this is taken at the house in Benbrook, that house.

Mr. Jenner. Would you select those, please?

Mr. Pic. These were taken in Covington.

Mr. Jenner. Excuse me, the witness has referred to two pictures marked John Pic Exhibits Nos. 50 and 51. Those were taken when?

Mr. Pic. It would be the summer of 1946 at Covington, La.

Mr. Jenner. And those pictures are pictures of whom?

Mr. Pic. Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. Jenner. All right.

Mr. Pic. Holding a fish.

Mr. Jenner. I offer in evidence John Pic Exhibits Nos. 50 and 51.

30 (John Pic Exhibits Nos. 50 and 51 were marked for identification.)

Mr. Jenner. The witness has now handed me two pictures, Pic Exhibits Nos. 54 and 55 one of which shows a young boy with a black-and-white dog, and the other shows with a house in the background. The other shows a house in the background and a black-and-white dog in front and an automobile. Could you decipher, referring to the exhibit numbers, the handwriting appearing at the top of each of those? You are looking at Exhibit what now?

Mr. Pic. Exhibit No. 55, sir, shows Lee's dog and the family car. This car belonged to us, that is why I brought it. The house in the background was the one and only grocery store, groceteria, whatever you want to call it, and laundromat in the area. This is where we did all of our food buying.

Mr. Jenner. Shopping?

Mr. Pic. As far as the neighborhood was concerned.

Mr. Jenner. There is some writing at the top of the picture; what does it say?

Mr. Pic. This says "Blackie, 1949."

Mr. Jenner. Blackie was the name of the dog?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Take that other exhibit and tell us what it was.

Mr. Pic. This was the same dog Lee had in 1948 when we returned from the school. Exhibit No. 54 shows the same store in the background and Lee Harvey Oswald, and a dog named Blackie. And to the right of the picture is the roof and corner of the house.

Mr. Jenner. The house in which you lived?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. I offer in evidence John Pic Exhibits Nos. 54 and 55.

(John Pic Exhibits Nos. 54 and 55 were marked for identification.)

Mr. Pic. After the divorce she bought the house in Benbrook, Tex., and then she was either working at or just got the job at Leonard Bros., Fort Worth, department store, Fort Worth, Tex.

At this time Robert and I were informed that we would not return to Chamberlain-Hunt in the fall. This, I think, was the first time that I actually recall any hostility towards my mother.

Mr. Jenner. On your part?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; this was quite a blow to me because we did want to go back. I had 2 more years in high school and I was going to be in the 11th grade and I did want to finish there.

Mr. Jenner. How did Robert react to that?

Mr. Pic. He felt the same way, sir. He wanted to go back. But we were informed because of the monetary situation it would be impossible for us to go back. In fact, my mother informed me that the best thing for me to do was not return to school but to get a job and help the family supplement its income.

Mr. Jenner. That is withdraw from school entirely?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; I was 16 at this time. In September, Lee and Robert returned to school, and I went to work. I obtained a job at Everybody's Department Store which belonged to Leonard Bros. I was a shoe stock boy at the salary of $25 a week.

Mr. Jenner. Did you pay some of that money to your mother?

Mr. Pic. I think at least $15 out of every pay check I did.

Mr. Jenner. $15 a week?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; I think my take-home pay was $22.50 after taxes. Which left me $7.50 to ride back and forth on the bus with.

Mr. Jenner. Did you continue to live in this home in Benbrook?

Mr. Pic. No, sir; about the same time that I went to work and Lee and Robert returned to school is when my mother bought the house at 7408 Ewing.

Mr. Jenner. In Fort Worth?

Mr. Pic. That is right, sir. It was just impossible for her and I to go to work and leave them out in the sticks, but being we moved on Ewing they could walk to school. In fact, I left for work earlier than she did, a couple of hours, in fact.

Mr. Jenner. Had Lee attended school in Benbrook, Tex.?

Mr. Pic. No, sir; not in the little house because we moved in the summer and moved out in the early fall.

31 Mr. Jenner. Had he attended a day school or a nursery school in Benbrook, Tex., at anytime to your knowledge over this period of years?

Mr. Pic. During the summer, sir, my mother worked at Leonard Bros., the three boys were left alone at home.

Mr. Jenner. What about the previous years?

Mr. Pic. She didn't work the previous years. She was still married to Mr. Ekdahl.

Mr. Jenner. I appreciate that. I wonder if he went to nursery school—when you first went to Benbrook, Tex., when you were on Granbury Road?

Mr. Pic. I wouldn't know that, sir.

Mr. Jenner. You have no impression?

Mr. Pic. That I don't remember.

Mr. Jenner. All right. You now started to work in the fall of 1948.

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. The family moves into Fort Worth at 7408 Ewing Street.

Mr. Pic. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And Lee and Robert enter school in Fort Worth.

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Is that correct? Do you remember the school, one would be a grammar school and one a junior high school.

Mr. Pic. I think Robert went to Sterling Junior High School. In fact, she would drive him there in the morning, and Lee was going to Ridglea, West Ridglea Elementary School, something like that.

Mr. Jenner. What happened to Lee? You were working.

Mr. Pic. Right.

Mr. Jenner. Robert was in school.

Mr. Pic. Right.

Mr. Jenner. And Lee was in school.

Mr. Pic. Right.

Mr. Jenner. Did Robert come home from school to take care of Lee when he finished?

Mr. Pic. Lee returned home before Robert did, sir.

Mr. Jenner. What did he do?

Mr. Pic. I have no idea, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Your mother was at work?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. He would just come home and wait until somebody came home?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; there was no TV at that time so——

Mr. Jenner. Was he—what about his habits in that respect? Did—your mother taught him to return home immediately and to stay in the house until she arrived?

Mr. Pic. I am sure he always did, sir, knowing his personality. He was not the type to goof off in things like this.

Mr. Jenner. Did you notice any tendencies on his part to do heavy reading at this stage of his life?

Mr. Pic. He always read a lot, sir.

Mr. Jenner. He did?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. What about his—was he gregarious or not? Did he exhibit tendencies to be with other people and children in the neighborhood or the contrary?

Mr. Pic. Not too much, sir. There weren't that many children his age in the neighborhood. In fact, most of them were my age and my brother Robert's.

Mr. Jenner. Did this age gap between you and Lee and between Lee and your brother Robert affect your relationships with him now that you had reached the age you were now 16, Robert was 14, and Lee was 9.

Mr. Pic. We played with Lee. Lee had his dog. On the weekends, Sunday, we would all go to the movies, the whole family. I usually went to work at sunup and returned at dark myself.

In the fall of 1948 it was the fad among high school students and young teenagers to join either the National Guard or Naval Reserve or some reserve outfit like this, so I was only 16 at the time, and I wanted to do this, and32 my mother thought it would be a real good way to supplement the income. So——

Mr. Jenner. Did you get paid for this service?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; we would meet once a month and draw a day's salary, something like this. It wasn't much money, a couple or $3 a meeting; something like that. So we went to the notary, I think, this was McLean's office and she swore to a notary that I was 17.

Mr. Jenner. But you were not in fact 17?

Mr. Pic. No, sir; I was 16. She gave my birthday as 17 January 1931. Can we go off the record?

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. Pic. OK, so I joined the Marine Corps Reserve sometime in October 1948. I was attached to the 2d, 155th Military Howitzer Battalion, U.S. Marine Corps Reserve, Fort Worth, Tex. About that time I started thinking and decided regardless of how my mother felt what happened, I was going to go back to school. So in January 1949 I went back to school and finished my high school education.

Mr. Jenner. To what school did you return?

Mr. Pic. I attended Arlington Heights High School, sir.

Mr. Jenner. In Fort Worth?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Did you work after school? Did you do anything to supplement your income?

Mr. Pic. I was able to retain my job at Everybody's as a stock boy for about 1 month on this part-time basis but at the end of February they informed me there was no way I could be kept on a part-time basis so I left the job and I then got a job at Burt's shoestore. At Burt's shoestore I was working part time but really making more than full time because I was a stock boy at $15 and all the commissions I could make in their stockroom plus all day Saturday.

Mr. Jenner. Selling shoes?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. What was your mother doing at this time?

Mr. Pic. I believe at this time, sir, she was working at Sterling's Department Store in Fort Worth after leaving Leonard Bros., before I left Everybody's, I think.

Mr. Jenner. Was Robert working after school?

Mr. Pic. Yes; he was working at the A & P.

Mr. Jenner. Had he been working at the A & P after school from the previous fall?

Mr. Pic. This would be 1949. February 1949, and I am sure he was working at A & P and going to school at that time, some time during that period. He and I were both working and going to school, both.

So, in January 1949, I returned to high school, Arlington Heights High School, Fort Worth, Tex., and was a junior, 11th grade there.

The school session ended and then I attended summer school to make up for what I had lost at Paschal High School, Fort Worth, Tex.

Mr. Jenner. P-a-s-k-a-l?

Mr. Pic. P-a-s-c-h-a-l, sir; is the way they spell it, sir. I still had the job at Burt's. So I attended summer school at Paschal, the summer of 1949. September of 1949——

Mr. Jenner. Excuse me, what did Lee do now? Had he been in school in the fall and winter of 1948 and the winter and spring of 1949?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. All right. Now, vacation is here. What did he do during the summer? You went to school, and you worked at Burt's, what was he doing?

Mr. Pic. Playing around home. And going to this Camp Carter that we ran across in the letter, I guess, I don't remember.

Mr. Jenner. What was Robert doing during the summer?

Mr. Pic. He was working at the A & P, sir; I believe.

Mr. Jenner. Were both of you boys contributing to the support of your mother during this period?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

33 Mr. Jenner. Both of you?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Were you continuing to give your mother the $15 a week you had started to give her in the fall of 1948?

Mr. Pic. Well, as far as I am concerned, being that I had no set income, I worked on a guaranteed salary of $15 plus commissions my pay might fluctuate between $20, $35 a week depending on how good a week I had. And I pro-rated this accordingly with her.

Mr. Jenner. And was Robert contributing something as well?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; he was.

Mr. Jenner. Lee didn't work at any time?

Mr. Pic. No, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Did you ever recall Lee up through this time through the summer of 1949 doing any work?

Mr. Pic. No.

Mr. Jenner. He is now 10 years old?

Mr. Pic. No, sir.

Mr. Jenner. He didn't have any paper routes or do the things that a 10-year-old sometimes does?

Mr. Pic. No, sir.

Mr. Jenner. All right.

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. We have now reached the fall of 1949.

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; September 1949, I decided—well, let's go back to when I went back to high school.

Mr. Jenner. All right. It is January of 1949.

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Lee was at Ridglea.

Mr. Pic. OK. I figured since I was smart enough to decide to go back to high school and my mother tried to talk me out of it I felt it was my own doing and therefore it was my own responsibility, so I decided since that is the way she felt and that was the way I felt I would sign my own report cards and take care of my own notes and everything.

My hostility towards her increased at this time because she pushed me to work and make money, and I knew an education, as much as I could get would be the best thing for me.

Since I took on the responsibility of going back to school I figured I could take care of the rest of it and I wanted nothing from her in this regard. This I did. I signed my own report card, wrote my own notes when I played hooky and missed school.

Mr. Jenner. Signing her name?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; so in——

Mr. Jenner. By the way what kind of a student were you?

Mr. Pic. I was a pretty good student at Chamberlain-Hunt. I had an A-B average at Chamberlain-Hunt, I believe, I did not do too good in the public schools, it was a little bit different, in Chamberlain-Hunt. The classes being a little larger, no individualized concern, just mass teaching. This was a little hard for me to adjust to. I did, I think I had a B or C average at Arlington Heights.

My summer school session, I think I maintained a B-C average. Maybe an A in one subject. So that in the 1949, the summer of 1949, I went to Paschal High School for the summer session, and I decided at this time that I liked Paschal better than Arlington Heights, so I fixed up my own transfer papers and I transferred to Paschal High School in the fall of 1949, which I did enjoy the school better.

Arlington Heights was rather a snobbish school, the rich kids went there and everything, and being I was enrolled in what was called distributive education which means you go to school and work part time you are kind of looked down upon in these type schools. But in Paschal it wasn't that way. The kids weren't snobbish and they weren't so high class, the majority of them.

I didn't do too good that particular year. I was working pretty hard, and I think I flunked one subject. So right after the Christmas holidays 1949, I was34 coming towards my 18th birthday and I decided I had just about finished school and I would be graduated, if I passed everything I would, and I decided to join the service, the Coast Guard, and then I processed my paper work, and 3 days prior to graduation I quit school and joined the Coast Guard.

At this time to get in the Coast Guard was rather hard to do. You had to get on a waiting list and when they called you and you didn't show up for it you didn't get in maybe for 6 months or so. I joined the Coast Guard because it was the hardest service to get into. I wasn't interested in the Army or the Marine Corps or the Navy. I took the one that was hardest, the hardest requirement and I got into it.

So, in January, approximately 25 January 1950 I joined the Coast Guard, and left for Cape May, N.J. I did not see Robert, Lee, or my mother until October 1950, 9 months later.

Mr. Jenner. October of 1959?

Mr. Pic. No, sir; 1950. 1950.

Mr. Jenner. Before we get to that or probe that any further, Lee returned to school in the fall of 1949?

Mr. Pic. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. He was still at Ridglea Elementary, then?

Mr. Pic. As far as I know, sir.

Mr. Jenner. What was his general attitude and his activities during this period 1948, 1949, through the summer of 1949.

Mr. Pic. Sir; I was 17 years old, I wasn't interested in what an 8–9-year old kids activities were in school. I mean I had girls on my mind and other things like that, you know.

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mr. Pic. To be honest with you.

Mr. Jenner. Yes, of course. What was your impression of him at that time?

Mr. Pic. He would get into his trouble, and maybe he would have trouble with a neighbor now and then about walking across their lawn or something. I remember once there was a fight on the bus because of Lee that my brother Robert got beat up because. Robert probably would remember that better than I did.

Mr. Jenner. I don't know whether he mentioned that.

Mr. Pic. I know he got his rear end whipped because of Lee.

Mr. Jenner. All right.

You entered the Coast Guard, and then you didn't see either of your brothers or your mother from the time of your enlistment in January of 1950.

Mr. Pic. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. Until when?

Mr. Pic. October 1950, sir. Early October 1950.

Mr. Jenner. What was that occasion?

Mr. Pic. I went back home on leave, back to Fort Worth on leave, sir.

Mr. Jenner. How long were you home on leave?

Mr. Pic. I think I took 20 days' leave. I think I stayed there 15, 16, something like that, about 2 weeks.

Mr. Jenner. What was the general atmosphere around the house at that time?

Mr. Pic. Well, everybody was glad to see me. I was—well, I come home with a couple of hundred dollars, you know a sailor off the high seas always saves his money and the mother right away wanted to hold it for me and so she conned me into that, and she let me have a few dollars of my own.

Then I spent most of my time looking up old girl friends and things, and visiting Mr. Conway. He and I were always playing chess together.

Mr. Jenner. Mr. Conway, I took his deposition.

Mr. Pic. Yes, very nice man.

Mr. Jenner. He spoke of playing chess with you a great deal.

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. I had forgotten that. Lived across the street.

Mr. Pic. No, sir; about five doors, four doors to the right of us.

Mr. Jenner. On the same side of the street?

Mr. Pic. Same side.

Mr. Jenner. Hiram Conway.

Mr. Pic. Hiram P. Conway.

35 Mr. Jenner. You then returned to the service?

Mr. Pic. Yes. I reported back to my ship.

Mr. Jenner. When next did you see your mother or Lee or Robert?

Mr. Pic. August 1952, sir.

Mr. Jenner. When you were back in the fall of 1950, was Lee in school?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; as far as I know.

Mr. Jenner. At Ridglea Elementary?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; as far as I know.

Mr. Jenner. Robert was still in school. He is now 16 years of age?

Mr. Pic. I don't know if he was. Going through those letters there was a time period he was in school, out of school. I don't really remember. I don't think he was in school when I returned on leave.

Mr. Jenner. What was he doing?

Mr. Pic. A & P, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Working. Are you now and were you then aware of the fact that your father contributed to your support during all the years actually until you reached your 18th birthday?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; that is when I decided to make it all on my own since she reminded me of the fact that she wouldn't get no money after I was 18 so that was one thing that contributed to me deciding to leave.

Mr. Jenner. Were you aware during all these years of what the amount of that contribution was?

Mr. Pic. No, sir; I wasn't.

Mr. Jenner. But you were aware of the fact that your father was making contributions?

Mr. Pic. I was always told it wasn't enough, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Apart from that you were aware of the fact your father was making contributions?

Mr. Pic. Right. She reminded me the day I became 18 that the payments stopped right then and there.

Mr. Jenner. The fact is that they did.

Mr. Pic. I know. I have no reason to doubt that. What was the amount?

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. Jenner. When you were in the service did you make any allotment to your mother?

Mr. Pic. No, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Did you send her any money at any time while you were in the service?

Mr. Pic. Quite frequently, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Tell us about that. Tell us as best you can the amount.

Mr. Pic. When I was in boot camp from January 1950 to May 1950, the only amount they paid us was $15 every 2 weeks and they held back the rest of our pay until we would graduate and then we would have money to go to our next station with. They do this to recruits. I don't remember if I sent any of this 15 or not, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Did you send any of the excess when you got it?

Mr. Pic. In those letters I presented you could add them up and see how much I sent in the year 1950. I think I sent $10, $20 at a time when I had it. I was making $80 a month. How much could I send and still be a sailor?

Mr. Jenner. This is not in any sense a criticism, sergeant. All I am doing is seeking some facts.

Mr. Pic. Well, sir, in the letters she refers to 10, 20, 40, sometimes.

Mr. Jenner. I show you John Pic Exhibits Nos. 48 and 59, and referring to No. 48, at the bottom of which is written Lee, age 2. Would you identify that, please?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; this is Lee Harvey Oswald age 2 as the picture states written in the handwriting of Mrs. Marguerite Oswald. This picture was taken at Lillian Murret's at Sherwood Forest Drive.

Mr. Jenner. That was your aunt's home in Sherwood Forest, New Orleans.

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; I am sure of that.

Mr. Jenner. I show you John Pic Exhibit No. 49 which—would you identify that?

36 Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; this is a picture of Lee Harvey Oswald, I guess at the same time, with a dog, and I am sure this was taken at Lillian Murret's in Sherwood Forest Drive.

Mr. Jenner. At the same time that John Pic Exhibit No. 48 was taken?

Mr. Pic. Yes; I think so.

Mr. Jenner. All right. I hand you now John Pic Exhibit No. 56, a photograph of a young man. Would you identify that as to time and place if you can, and age, his age, the subject's age?

Mr. Pic. Sir, this is a picture of Lee Harvey Oswald which I believe to have been taken when he was in about the second or third grade.

Mr. Jenner. That would be when you were living in Dallas?

Mr. Pic. Fort Worth, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Fort Worth, yes; 7408 Ewing.

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. I hand you John Pic Exhibits Nos. 57 and 58. I don't know which depicts this young man at the younger age. Take the younger one.

Mr. Pic. Exhibit No. 57, sir, I believe was taken either in late 1951 or early 1952, and it shows a picture of Lee Harvey Oswald approximately how he looked when he came to New York to stay with my wife and I in August of 1952.

Exhibit No. 58, to my best recollection, I think, is a picture sent to me by my mother in approximately 1954, 1955, maybe in 1956, from New Orleans, La. It is a picture of Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. Jenner. It is after they returned to New Orleans?

Mr. Pic. I am pretty sure that picture was taken in New Orleans.

Mr. Jenner. All right. I offer in evidence John Pic Exhibits Nos. 48, 49, 56, 57, and 58.

(John Pic Exhibits Nos. 48, 49, 56, 57, and 58 were marked for identification.)

Mr. Jenner. What were the circumstances surrounding and leading up to your mother and Lee coming to New York City in the summer of 1952?

Mr. Pic. I think this was brought on because Robert joined the service sometime previous to that. That would be about right, April 1952, did he join the service. I don't know when. He wasn't there at the time. He was in the service when they came.

Mr. Jenner. Yes. He entered the service as soon as he reached his majority.

Mr. Pic. So that would be April 1952.

Mr. Jenner. Was there an incident respecting, between Robert and your mother and some young lady in which, in whom he was interested just before he entered the service?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. You came to know about that?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. By what means?

Mr. Pic. By way of my mother, sir.

Mr. Jenner. All right, what was it?

Mr. Pic. Robert had been seeing this girl and she had a club foot. My mother didn't feel that they should be married. He wanted to marry her, and she conned him out of it.

Mr. Jenner. All right. Had you received any letters from Robert on that subject at anytime?

Mr. Pic. No, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Between the time you were home in October of 1950 and the summer of 1952, had you seen your mother or either of your brothers?

Mr. Pic. No, sir.

Mr. Jenner. All right. Now, my question to you was what led up to and what were the circumstances involving or surrounding the visit of your mother and Lee to New York in the summer of 1952.

Mr. Pic. Well, Robert had joined the service in April 1952. It was the summer months, so Lee was not in school, and the trip to New York was feasible, being Lee would have no schooltime lost, it was my impression and also my wife's—meanwhile, I was married, you know, if you are interested in this.

Mr. Jenner. Yes; I am.

Mr. Pic. August 18, 1951, I married my wife Margaret Dorothy Fuhrman.

37 Mr. Jenner. You had met her after you had entered the service and while you were stationed in the New York area?

Mr. Pic. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Jenner. At this time, that is the summer of 1952 you were living where?

Mr. Pic. 325 East 92d Street, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Did you have any children at that time?

Mr. Pic. In August 1952; yes, sir. I did.

Mr. Jenner. Your first child was born?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; John Edward Pic, Jr.

Mr. Jenner. Was the child born before or after your mother and Lee arrived.

Mr. Pic. Before, sir.

Mr. Jenner. All right.

Mr. Pic. He was born 14 May 1952, approximately 3 months before they arrived.

Mr. Jenner. All right. Did you invite your mother and Lee to come to New York?

Mr. Pic. The impression that my wife and myself had was they were coming to visit, sir, and we had nothing against this. My mother-in-law, we lived with her at the time, she was visiting her other daughter, Mrs. Emma Parrish, in Norfolk, Va., she was staying with them, so we had the room for them.

Mr. Jenner. But that was your mother's apartment or home?

Mr. Pic. Mother-in-law's.

Mr. Jenner. Was it an apartment or a home?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; it was a box, freight-car type railroad apartment.

Mr. Jenner. One room in back of the other?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. So you were then guests of your mother-in-law at that particular time, that is, living in her home or apartment? And your impression was that your mother and Lee they were just visiting for the summer months or for a period, to visit for the summer months or a period during the summer that was your definite impression.

Mr. Pic. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Jenner. All right, what happened?

Mr. Pic. At this time I was stationed at U.S. Coast Guard, Port Security Unit, Ellis Island, New York. My status there, I was, I worked once every fourth night, also every fourth weekend so I wasn't home all the time. When they came I took leave so I could spend more time with them.

Mr. Jenner. "I took Lee," would you elaborate on that? What do you mean you took Lee.

Mr. Pic. I am allowed 30 days leave a year and I took off, I took a week or so, I think.

Mr. Jenner. I misunderstood you, I thought you said you took Lee but you said you took leave.

Mr. Pic. Leave.

Mr. Jenner. You took 30 days leave.

Mr. Pic. No, sir; maybe a week or two.

Mr. Jenner. What was your impression, you were with them or tried to be with them during that 2-week period.

Mr. Pic. Just a minute, sir. That is where I began my notes. August 1952, my mother and Lee came to New York. They brought with them quite a bit of luggage, and their own TV set. On my way home I had to walk about 8 to 10 blocks to the subway, and Lee walked up to meet me as I was walking home, I told my wife and Lee decided to go up and meet me. We met in the street and I was real glad to see him and he was real glad to see me. We were real good friends. I think a matter of a few days or so I took my leave. Lee and I visited some of the landmarks of New York, the Museum of Natural History, Polk's Hobby Shop on 5th Avenue. I took him on the Staten Island ferry, and several other excursions we made.

Mr. Jenner. Go ahead.

Mr. Pic. Well, sir; it wasn't but a matter of days before I could sense they moved in to stay for good, and this not being my apartment, but my mother-in-law's apartment, my wife kind of frowned upon this a little bit. We didn't38 really mind as long as my mother-in-law wasn't there, but she was due back in a matter of a month or so.

During my leave I was under the impression that I may get out of the service in January of 1953, when my enlistment was up, so I went around to several colleges. My mother drove me to these colleges, Fordham University, for one, and Brooklyn, some college in Brooklyn, a couple of other ones I inquired about. I remember one conversation in the car that she reminded me that even though Margy was my wife, she wasn't quite as good as I was, and things like this. She didn't say too many good things about my wife. Well, naturally, I resented this, because I put my wife before my mother any day.

Things were pretty good during the time I was on leave. When I went back to work I would come home my wife would tell me about some little problem they would have. The first problem that I recollect was that there was no support for the grocery bill whatsoever. I don't think I was making more than $150 a month, and they were eating up quite a bit, and I just casually mentioned that and my mother got very much upset about it. So every night I got home and especially the nights I was away and I would come home the next day my wife would have more to tell me about the little arguments. It seems it is my wife's impression that whenever there was an argument that my mother antagonized Lee towards hostility against my wife.

My wife liked Lee. My wife and I had talked several times that it would be nice if Lee would stay with us alone, and we wouldn't mind having him. But we never bothered mentioning this because we knew it was an impossibility.

It got toward schooltime and they had their foothold in the house and he was going to enroll in the neighborhood school, and they planned to stay with us, and I didn't much like this. We couldn't afford to have them, and took him up to enroll in this school.

Mr. Jenner. You did?

Mr. Pic. No, sir; my mother did. I think this is a public school in New York City located on about 89th, 90th Street between Third Avenue and Second Avenue. Lee didn't like this school. I didn't much blame him.

Mr. Ely. When you visited these colleges, had you received credit for finishing high school somehow?

Mr. Pic. No.

Mr. Jenner. Did you hear anything to the effect that the reason why your mother and Lee had come to New York had anything to do with Lee's being given some sort of mental tests?

Mr. Pic. No, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Was there a period of time just before the enrollment of Lee in the New York Public School, that he attended for about a month a Lutheran denominational school?

Mr. Pic. I don't know, sir. I am not up to that yet.

Mr. Jenner. I see. All right.

Mr. Pic. At about the same time that Lee was enrolled in school that we had the big trouble. It seems that there was an argument about the TV set one day, and—between my wife and my mother. It seems that according to my wife's statement that my mother antagonized Lee, being very hostile toward my wife and he pulled out a pocketknife and said that if she made any attempt to do anything about it that he would use it on her, at the same time Lee struck his mother. This perturbed my wife to no end. So, I came home that night, and the facts were related to me.

Mr. Jenner. When the facts were related to you was your mother present, Lee present, your wife present? If not, who was present?

Mr. Pic. I think my wife told me this in private, sir. I went and asked my mother about it.

Mr. Jenner. Your mother was home?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; she was home.

Mr. Jenner. You went and spoke with your mother?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Was Lee present when you spoke to your mother?

Mr. Pic. No, sir.

39 Mr. Jenner. What did you say to your mother and what did she say to you?

Mr. Pic. I asked her about the incident and she attempted to brush it off as not being as serious as my wife put it. That Lee did not pull a pocketknife on her. That they just had a little argument about what TV channel they were going to watch. Being as prejudiced as I am I rather believed my wife rather than my mother.

Mr. Jenner. Did you speak to Lee about the incident?

Mr. Pic. I am getting to that, sir. So I approached Lee on this subject, and about the first couple of words out of my wife he became real hostile toward me, and let me get my notes on it. When this happened it perturbed my wife so much that she told them they are going to leave whether they liked it or not, and I think Lee had the hostility toward my wife right then and there, when they were getting thrown out of the house as they put it.

When I attempted to talk to Lee about this, he ignored me, and I was never able to get to the kid again after that. He didn't care to hear anything I had to say to him. So in a matter of a few days they packed up and left, sir. They moved to the Bronx somewhere.

Mr. Jenner. Did you see them from time to time thereafter?

Mr. Pic. Yes, I can continue if you wish. Unless you want to stop there and ask me something about it.

Mr. Jenner. Well, at this point, yes, I would like to ask you this: You hadn't seen them from October of 1950 until the summer of 1952. Did you notice any change in him, his overall attitude, his relations with his mother, his demeanor, his feelings towards others, his actions toward others?

Mr. Pic. He was definitely the boss.

Mr. Jenner. Now, tell us on what you base that?

Mr. Pic. I mean if he decided to do something, regardless of what my mother said, he did it. She had no authority whatsoever with him. He had no respect for her at all. He and my wife got along very well together when they were alone, when she wasn't present, she and Lee got along very well. She always reminded me of this.

Mr. Jenner. Your wife reminded you of that?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir. Without my mother present she could make it with Lee.

Mr. Jenner. But as soon as your mother came within contact with Lee in your home, then the attitude changed?

Mr. Pic. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Up to this incident when this knife pulling incident occurred, how had your relations with Lee been?

Mr. Pic. Been very good, sir. He and I had gone on all these excursions throughout New York City, and I tried to show him what I could, and spend as much time as I could with him.

Mr. Jenner. You found him to have—he was interested in that sort of thing?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; he loved to go to the Museum of Natural History, anything like that he liked.

Mr. Jenner. Did you speak to him about this relationship he appeared to have with his mother in which he minded her or not as he saw fit and did as he wished?

Mr. Pic. Not until the knife pulling incident.

Mr. Jenner. And you did discuss that subject with him on that occasion?

Mr. Pic. I attempted to, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Did you attempt to do it thereafter when you saw him from time to time?

Mr. Pic. Sir, he would have nothing to do with me thereafter.

Mr. Jenner. He would not.

Mr. Pic. No, sir; he wouldn't even speak to me.

Mr. Jenner. There was an absolute, complete change then in his relations with you?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. Jenner. It was a marked one?

Mr. Pic. That is correct. I have a couple of more incidents in which I can relate that even more so.

Mr. Jenner. Would you do that?

40 Mr. Pic. Well, the day they moved out they had done this before I came home from work.

Mr. Jenner. They had moved out before you came home from work?

Mr. Pic. That is correct, sir. To elaborate, in my notes I have "after I approached Lee about this incident his feelings toward me became hostile and thereafter remained indifferent to me and never again was I able to communicate with him in any way."

Mr. Jenner. Sergeant, if you can, instead of just reading from your notes, read your notes, and if they refresh your recollection and then give in your own words the facts.

Mr. Pic. Well, prior to this particular incident, I would consider us the best of friends as far as older brother-younger brother relationship. My wife always says that he idolized me and thought quite a bit of me.

Mr. Jenner. Up to this time, the relationship between you and your brother Lee, and your brother Robert, all three of you, had been a cordial normal friendly relationship that you expect to exist among brothers?

Mr. Pic. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Jenner. What was your nickname?

Mr. Pic. Pic.

Mr. Jenner. What was your brother Robert's nickname?

Mr. Pic. In Chamberlain-Hunt we referred to him as "Mouse". I think that hung on a while after that.

Mr. Jenner. What nickname did he have before that?

Mr. Pic. None that I recall.

Mr. Jenner. Why did he get that? Was he a quiet boy?

Mr. Pic. He was the littlest one in Chamberlain-Hunt and that was why they called him that.

Mr. Jenner. I see, size.

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Did Lee ever have a nickname?

Mr. Pic. Not that I know of, sir.

Mr. Jenner. You had the feeling, did you, up until this incident at least that Lee is a young boy, 7 years younger than you, and his brother Robert 5 years older than he, and he looked up to both of you as older brothers?

Mr. Pic. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And you had, both you and your brother Robert had love in your heart for your brother Lee?

Mr. Pic. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And you felt he reciprocated that?

Mr. Pic. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And the relationship between yourself and your brother Robert was cordial?

Mr. Pic. They always have, and still are, sir.

Mr. Jenner. I may say to you that he so testified. All right.

Mr. Pic. So they moved out in about September 1952, maybe it was late September, early October, somewhere around there, so from about somewhere between September of 1952 and January 1953, my brother Robert came to New York on leave, and we were all invited up to the Bronx.

Mr. Jenner. To visit whom?

Mr. Pic. Sir?

Mr. Jenner. To visit whom?

Mr. Pic. To visit my mother and my brother.

Mr. Jenner. Your brother?

Mr. Pic. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. Did your brother's wife accompany him?

Mr. Pic. He wasn't married at that time, sir.

Mr. Jenner. He wasn't married?

Mr. Pic. I think this was, his leave was probably in October or November 1952, a matter of a month or two after they had moved out. We visited their apartment in the Bronx.

Mr. Jenner. Excuse me, where did your brother stay?

Mr. Pic. I think he stayed at the Soldier-Sailor-Airmen Club in New York.

41 Mr. Jenner. In any event he did not stay with you.

Mr. Pic. No, sir; he may have stayed with my mother also. I don't think so. Maybe for a night or two. We went out, my wife fixed him up with a date with one of her girl friends and we went out together a couple of times. So, we were invited up there for this Sunday dinner. So it was my mother, Lee, Robert, my wife, myself, and my son.

Robert was already there when we arrived. When Lee seen me or my wife he left the room. For dinner he sat in the front room watching TV and didn't join us whatsoever.

Mr. Jenner. He did not join you for dinner?

Mr. Pic. No, sir. Didn't speak to me or my wife.

Mr. Jenner. That put a kind of pall on the visit, did it not?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Did you—he didn't speak to you. Did you attempt to speak with him?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. Jenner. Did he answer you?

Mr. Pic. He shrugged his shoulders a couple of times maybe. He wasn't interested in anything I had to say.

Mr. Jenner. He was definitely hostile to you and to Mrs. Pic?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And that continued throughout the entire visit that evening or was it an evening?

Mr. Pic. It was early afternoon until dusk. We did have an infant son we had to get home.

Mr. Jenner. Was it a Sunday or Saturday?

Mr. Pic. I am sure it was a Sunday. In January 1950——

Mr. Jenner. Excuse me, what did you observe with respect to the attitude of Lee toward his mother on that occasion?

Mr. Pic. When he was eating he came and got what he wanted, picked up his plate, went to the living room and watched TV. He decided what he wanted to eat and maybe she helped him. I don't really remember too much about it. I know he did not eat with us.

Mr. Jenner. Did you notice his relation, if any, with Robert?

Mr. Pic. From what I was told later and so forth when I wasn't present him and Robert got along real good.

Mr. Jenner. Excuse me. My question was did you observe on this occasion.

Mr. Pic. There was nothing to observe while I was present, sir. He was completely withdrawn from the crowd.

Mr. Jenner. He withdrew from everybody?

Mr. Pic. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Jenner. All right.

Mr. Pic. Personally, I didn't know if he was more hostile towards me or my wife. I still don't know this fact. Maybe it was her, maybe it was me, maybe it was both of us.

In January 1953, I did reenlist in the Coast Guard. I decided to stay in rather than quit, and so forth.

Mr. Jenner. From the time of that October visit of Robert to January 1953, did you see Lee at any time during that period?

Mr. Pic. No, sir; I did not. I seen my mother on several occasions. She was working on 42d Street in a Lerner's Dress Shop. I guess I would see her maybe once every 3 weeks to once a month, we dropped downtown, my wife and I, to see her.

Mr. Jenner. What did she say about Lee during that time when you saw her on those occasions?

Mr. Pic. Whenever I seen her, whether I was alone or with my wife, I was usually alone, I went to see her myself, my wife didn't care to see my mother, she would complain about her financial status and when I would ask her about how Lee was doing she would say, "OK" but would not elaborate.

Said "He is OK, but he doesn't have a brother, an older brother to talk to or no one to do anything with."

Mr. Jenner. During this period of time and up to January 1953, in any of the42 contacts you had with your mother did you learn or were you advised or did you become aware that there was difficulty with Lee with respect to truancy in attendance at school?

Mr. Pic. I am not quite there, sir.

Mr. Jenner. All right. The answer is, I take it, that up to this point of January 1953 you were not aware.

Mr. Pic. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Despite the fact that you had seen your mother from time to time during that period?

Mr. Pic. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Jenner. All right, we are at January 1953, when you reenlisted in the Coast Guard.

Mr. Pic. That is right. So in February 1953, my wife and I were again invited to their apartment. This may or may not have been the same apartment we originally visited. I don't remember, sir. I know it was up in the Bronx. I think it may have been a different apartment. Is that right?

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mr. Pic. As my wife and I walked in, Lee walked out and my mother informed us that he would probably go to the Bronx Zoo. We had Sunday dinner, and in the course of the conversation my mother informed me that Lee was having a truancy problem and that the school officials had suggested that he might need psychiatric aid to combat his truancy problem.

She informed me that Lee said that he would not see a head shrinker or nut doctor, and she wanted any suggestions or opinions from me as to how to get him to see him, and I told her just take him down there. That is all I could suggest.

Mr. Jenner. What was her response to that?

Mr. Pic. Well, Lee was still the boss. If he didn't want to go see the psychiatrist, he wasn't going.

Mr. Jenner. She had no control over him?

Mr. Pic. No, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And you were quite aware of that, were you?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Did you discuss that with her?

Mr. Pic. No, sir; she discussed it with me. I mean she told me that she couldn't control him and so forth. This I knew.

Mr. Jenner. Did you get the impression from anything she said to you that this truancy or this lack of control problem had been something that had suddenly arisen or——

Mr. Pic. I think it was gradual, and getting worse and worse as time went by.

Mr. Jenner. Sergeant, when you were still home and up to the time you enlisted which was in January 1950, had there been any control problems with respect to Lee? In other words, had you noticed this problem developing, any headstrong attitudes on his part? Cudgel your mind and take yourself back.

Mr. Pic. I would say, sir, that whenever there was a disciplinary problem to be taken care of that it wasn't enforced with Lee by his mother prior to 1950. She always reminded Robert and I that we were the older and we should see to these things that he don't do them and so forth.

Mr. Jenner. What did you and Robert do about it?

Mr. Pic. Not much, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Did you speak to him? You were his older brother. He had the love and affection for you?

Mr. Pic. Well, sir; what was serious to her probably wasn't serious to a 13- and 15-year old kid or 14–16. There was no big troubles he got into that any kid does.

Mr. Jenner. What did you notice up until the time you enlisted in January 1950, of Lee's relations with other children in the neighborhood or his schoolmates. What was your overall impression, first?

Mr. Pic. To my best recollection, sir; there were no other children in the neighborhood of his age group that he played consistently with. I think most of the time he went to play with other children it was a matter of a couple, couple of blocks away or so, with his own age group.

43 Mr. Jenner. Was he inclined to remain in the house rather than go out and play with other children?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; he was more inclined to stay in the house than go out and play.

Mr. Jenner. Was that noticeable to you?

Mr. Pic. I wasn't there that much, sir; I was working and going to school, both. I wasn't there to observe this.

Mr. Jenner. I see.

Mr. Pic. Except maybe on a weekend occasionally.

Mr. Jenner. But you did notice that when they came to New York in 1952, particularly in the fall of 1952, that by that time he had become quite headstrong?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And that his mother and your mother Marguerite, had pretty well lost any influence or control over him?

Mr. Pic. That is absolutely true, sir.

Mr. Jenner. All right. Now, we brought you up to enlistment in January 1953.

Mr. Pic. On the occasion when we visited them in February 1953.

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mr. Pic. At this same time in February 1953, I received orders to go aboard ship again, so from the time period February 1953, until September 1953, I was in and out of New York at sea.

Mr. Jenner. Did you see either your mother or Lee during that period of time?

Mr. Pic. I did not see Lee after the February visit, sir. I had seen her on several occasions.

Mr. Jenner. During this——

Mr. Pic. Downtown where she worked.

Mr. Jenner. She was still working in Lerner's in the spring and summer of 1953 or had she changed jobs?

Mr. Pic. To my best recollection it was still Lerner's.

Mr. Jenner. Do you recall her working at a hosiery shop during this period of time rather than Lerner's?

Mr. Pic. I wouldn't remember, sir.

Mr. Jenner. She might have been but you just don't have a recollection?

Mr. Pic. Wherever she was working at the time, I mean she shifted jobs quite often and it is kind of hard keeping track of them.

Mr. Jenner. Did she have difficulty with her employers, get along with fellow workers at these various shops?

Mr. Pic. Whenever she changed jobs she always gave me a rationalized answer.

Mr. Jenner. Well, that is a conclusion. Tell me what it was.

Mr. Pic. I remember once, it may have been the Lerner shop or it may have been this hosiery shop which you are referring to, that she told me that they let her go because she didn't use an underarm deoderant. That was the reason she gave me, sir. She said she couldn't do nothing about it. She uses it but if it don't work what can she do about it.

Other times whenever she changed jobs it was always because the next job was better.

Mr. Jenner. During the time, on the occasions when you saw her, which was relatively infrequent from January of 1953 to, what is the next date you gave, September of 1953?

Mr. Pic. August-September 1953.

Mr. Jenner. August of 1953, September of 1953, was there any discussion with her about Lee?

Mr. Pic. When I asked about him it was the same old stuff, he is getting along better. She would tell me that he still doesn't have anybody to confide in, things like this.

Mr. Jenner. Was there any further discussion about truancy, any possibility of care for him by a psychiatrist?

44 Mr. Pic. No, sir; when I asked about this she said everything was working out fine.

Mr. Jenner. All right.

Mr. Pic. Whenever I would meet her it would be the same old song and dance, like hinting around I should help support her which I couldn't afford to do, sir.

Mr. Jenner. You had a wife and child by that time?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. What was your compensation?

Mr. Pic. For what, sir?

Mr. Jenner. In the service at this time.

Mr. Pic. I was petty officer, second class, I guess my base pay was maybe $190, plus extras, quarters allowances, maybe total $300 a month.

Mr. Jenner. Was your wife still residing with your mother-in-law?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And were you contributing to the support of that whole family unit?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Mother-in-law, wife and child?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; I was paying the rent and buying the groceries. In fact, that year I claimed my mother-in-law as a dependent on my income tax, sir.

Mr. Jenner. By the way, you had claimed, did you, at some point in your service your mother as a dependent?

Mr. Pic. In one of her letters she refers to that. I don't recollect that, sir. I think it was prior to my joining the service that she referred to. When I was working full time, maybe the year right after, I don't remember, sir, that incident at all.

Mr. Jenner. All right.

Mr. Pic. Well, on these visits that I would spend with her downtown, we would eat lunch or something on Saturday. It got old after a while listening to her so I knew I was getting transferred to Virginia in September, 1953, so my wife left in August of 1953 to live with her sister until I was stationed there in September, 1953.

Mr. Jenner. Where did her sister live?

Mr. Pic. Norfolk, Va. And I was to be stationed at Portsmouth, Va., at the Naval hospital there for school purposes.

When I did finally get transferred from the ship to Portsmouth, Va., I did not make known to my mother our whereabouts or our address.

Mr. Jenner. Why not?

Mr. Pic. Like I said, sir; it was getting kind of old. The only time I had seen her would be downtown and she didn't have much to say to me and I didn't have too much to say to her.

Mr. Jenner. During this period of time there came about a substantially complete rupture then between yourself and your mother?

Mr. Pic. To a certain degree.

Mr. Jenner. Did you see your brother at any time thereafter?

Mr. Pic. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. Jenner. Was there an occasion in Thanksgiving 1962 when you saw him?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; I can get to that. There are things happened prior to that.

Mr. Jenner. You did see him——

Mr. Pic. No, sir; I did not see him. I seen my mother.

Mr. Jenner. I see. All right; go ahead.

Mr. Pic. I returned from Portsmouth, Va., in April 1954, sir; and took up residency at 80 St. Marks Place, Staten Island, N.Y. We returned really to 325 East 92d Street, stayed there a matter of a couple of days until I found us a place to live in Staten Island and then my wife and I moved over to Staten Island leaving my mother-in-law in the apartment, being I felt because my wife had six brothers and sisters that they could worry about her. I didn't see that it was my responsibility much longer. My wife was the youngest child, and we lived there almost 2 years.

I was then assigned to the U.S. Coast Guard Cutter Halfmoon, which is a weather vessel, and this is where I am in and out for 6-, 7-week periods at a45 time. It was during this time that she wrote me at the base, my mother, and informed me that they were back in New Orleans, and you have the letters referring to this, sir.

It was either sometime in the fall of 1955 or the winter of 1956 that my mother called me from New Orleans.

Mr. Jenner. By telephone?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; and said she wanted to visit again.

Mr. Jenner. You were then in New York?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; well, Lee was still with her, and my wife frowned upon this, and being that we did have a one-bedroom apartment, and we did have two children at this time there was no way at all we could accommodate two of them. She was very upset about this that I wouldn't have her up. There was nothing I could do about it, though. I knew if she came up they were coming up to stay, and I didn't want a repeat of what we had. So in February 1956, I joined the Air Force and was stationed at Mitchel Air Force Base in New York which is about 30, 40 miles east of New York City. In October 1956, Lee joined the Marine Corps.

Mr. Jenner. How did that come to your attention?

Mr. Pic. My mother informed me of this fact.

Mr. Jenner. By letter?

Mr. Pic. We were writing again. So, it was just a matter of corresponding by mail up until the Christmas holidays of 1957 when my mother—let me make sure that date is right—I am fairly certain, sir; that it was the Christmas holidays of 1957 rather than the Christmas holidays of 1958—that she visited us.

Mr. Jenner. She did come to New York?

Mr. Pic. Right. She come to—we had moved to 104 Avenue C East Meadow, on Long Island. I had two children but we had a 3-bedroom apartment which was part of base housing and we could accommodate her here.

She came from Fort Worth when she arrived. Somehow or another between New Orleans and this visit she and Lee had gone back to Fort Worth.

Mr. Jenner. You were aware of the fact she had returned to Fort Worth?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And you learned that through correspondence?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. With her.

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; her position at that time, so she told us, was that she was a greeter for the city of Fort Worth. She would welcome people to town and things like this.

Mr. Jenner. I think she was employed for a while in an organization called Welcome Wagon. That is a national organization.

Mr. Pic. When she was employed is when she visited us. I think this was Christmas of 1957, is that right?

Mr. Ely. I think that would be the same thing probably, Welcome Wagon greets people.

Mr. Pic. Is this 1957 when she had that job?

Mr. Jenner. I am not sure of the date but it is true that during that, when she returned to Fort Worth sometime along there she did have a position of that character.

Mr. Pic. She stayed over the Christmas holidays, left approximately the 10th of January, sometime.

Mr. Jenner. Did you have conversations here about Lee during that time?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. What did she say?

Mr. Pic. Lee was in the Marine Corps, Lee was very happy to be in the Marine Corps, Lee was proud to be in the Marine Corps. Lee loved the Marine Corps. He just liked it.

Mr. Jenner. I see. What had occurred to Robert in the meantime? This is December of 1957. Was he still in the service?

Mr. Pic. No, sir; he was not, I don't believe. I think he had gotten discharged and gotten married, was residing in Fort Worth with his wife.

46 Mr. Jenner. He was discharged in the spring of 1956–1957, rather; and stayed at Exchange Alley for a short while.

Mr. Pic. I don't know that.

Mr. Jenner. Then went to Fort Worth and your mother and your brother Lee followed and your brother Lee attended high school for about 6 or 7 weeks in the fall of 1957 in Fort Worth, Arlington Heights High School, and enlisted in October 1957, in the Marines.

Mr. Pic. Lee enlisted in 1956, I believe.

Mr. Ely. 1956.

Mr. Jenner. 1956 was it. Then your brother Robert was discharged, mustered out in 1956?

Mr. Pic. That sounds about right. And stayed in Exchange Alley a short time, didn't like it, went on to Fort Worth.

After she left in January of 1958 we continued to communicate by mail and every now and then a phone call.

Then in August of 1958 I received my orders to Japan, and we left Mitchel and departed cross country.

Mr. Jenner. You and your wife and children?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. By what, automobile?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. By this time you owned an automobile?

Mr. Pic. My second one.

Mr. Jenner. Second one?

Mr. Pic. I purchased my first one when I was stationed in Virginia. We arrived in Fort Worth, approximately 28, 29 October 1958. I remember we were in her house on Halloween night because I pulled the car up behind and locked the gates so I would not have my hub caps stolen.

Mr. Jenner. Where did she reside then?

Mr. Pic. I think you ought to refresh my memory on that. It was a little circle. Did she have an address with a little circle, some kind of circle or something?

Mr. Jenner. Do you have that?

Mr. Pic. What she lived on described the street, it was a circle, something like that.

Mr. Jenner. Her first house and apartment in New York was 325, that was your apartment, 325 East 92. And then she moved over to 1455 Sheridan Avenue in the Bronx, and then 825 East 179th Street in the Bronx. 3124 West Fifth Street, Fort Worth.

Mr. Pic. That isn't familiar.

Mr. Jenner. It is not familiar?

Mr. Pic. It could be it, though, I can probably find it on the map of Fort Worth if we still have got it because I remember that place real well. I was thrown out of there. Some people hold a grudge a long time. Sir, that is probably it, West Fifth Street, because the location West Fifth Street is probably about the same place.

Mr. Jenner. You said you were thrown out of there. I assume an incident occurred?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; I am getting to that.

Mr. Jenner. All right.

Mr. Pic. While we were staying there, I was traveling cross country and really didn't know where I was going or what time I would have to be there. We were waiting for our port call to know when we would have to be in San Francisco to catch our flight out of there, and so I had no idea how long I would be in Fort Worth, and so I made a phone call from there to Mitchel to try to find out, and didn't find out anything.

Then the Sunday that we were there—well, prior to this, when we arrived there the same day my brother Robert came over to see us. He was then working for a milk company, Borden's Milk Co., I believe. He was giving my mother free milk, all the extras that he had and so forth.

Mr. Jenner. This is the first time you had seen your brother Robert, I take it, since his visit to New York City, is that correct?

47 Mr. Pic. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. And that was a cordial reunion, was it?

Mr. Pic. Yes; it was.

Mr. Jenner. Was your mother working at that time?

Mr. Pic. She was working, sir, when we arrived there, at Cox, I believe, Department Store at the candy counter, I believe it was Cox, I know she was working at a candy counter.

Mr. Jenner. All right.

Mr. Pic. When we got there, my mother informed us she had no food in the house so my wife and I went and bought a whole bunch of groceries for our stay which we expected to do. I got in contact with some old friends, and they invited me over for Sunday dinner the following Sunday at their house, and being I was pressed for time I had another Sunday dinner invitation at my brother Robert's house. My mother was invited to this dinner.

Mr. Jenner. At your brother's?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mr. Pic. He then resided at 7313 Davenport Street, I believe. Well, it seems that my mother declined her part of the invitation, and was quite put out that my wife and I did not decline our part because she decided that we should spend Sunday dinner eating with her. So, my wife and I and two children drove off to my brother Robert's house to go eat. After we were there for about a half hour, she called us up and told me to come get our bags, that we would have to leave.

So, my wife and I, we left the kids at my brother Robert's because we knew there would be a big scene with all the trimmings, and we went back and we walked in, didn't say nothing, just packed up our bags and she was yelling and screaming reminding us about the time we threw her out of the apartment in New York and she was getting even with us for this when we threw her and Lee out.

I then informed her that I wanted nothing more to do with her and that every time she and my wife got together, that she had nothing but bad things to say about her. And I let her know that our relationship ends right then and there, and since that time, sir, I have not written her, talked to her, anything.

Mr. Jenner. Or seen her.

Mr. Pic. Or have seen her, except in magazines and stuff. She has sent me a bunch of junk in the mail. During this conversation when we was getting thrown out, I reminded her that she made nothing but trouble for us and especially my wife, she was always on my wife. And so I owed her a few dollars for the phone call I had made, so I gave her $10 and this seemed to satisfy, well, probably accomplished what she set out to do, get some money off of me one way or the other. This I how I looked at it. This didn't upset her, after we left, after I gave her $10. So, we went to my brother Robert's, we ate, we stayed at their house until Tuesday morning, and we left and then went to Japan, sir.

Mr. Jenner. All right. Let's suspend for dinner.

Mr. Pic. Could I just add one thing, sir?

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mr. Pic. While we were there, I was informed that Lee was in Japan.

Mr. Jenner. You were informed by your mother?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir. And that we should see him when we get there.

Mr. Jenner. Were you advised as to where in Japan he was?

Mr. Pic. I was given his address, sir. After arriving there it was just a matter of a week or so I received a letter from my mother which I never acknowledged or maybe it was my brother, it was one of the two, saying Lee was traveling across the United States at the same time I was. He had left Japan before I arrived in Japan. I arrived in Japan 10 November 1958 and I don't know what date he left, sir. I never got to see him in Japan. This would probably be a good time to suspend.

Mr. Jenner. Before we do that, did you have any conversation with your brother about, your brother Robert about your brother Lee while you were there in 1958?

Mr. Pic. I think I may have let him know how Lee acted toward me. He48 didn't want nothing to do with me. The only things I heard about Lee was that he was in the Marine Corps and he liked it.

Mr. Jenner. Did your brother Robert say anything about having been in New Orleans before he came to Fort Worth?

Mr. Pic. He told me about a trip that he made to pick them up or something down there. They called him up one time and he drove down and got them and drove back all in the same trip.

Mr. Jenner. That must have been the time when they left New Orleans and came to Fort Worth.

Mr. Pic. Sir, in the testimony of Marilyn Murret, I am going to make a statement.

Mr. Jenner. What testimony of Marilyn Murret?

Mr. Pic. This is what I am going to tell you that prior to his defection she knew he was in Europe and everywhere that I read in here, no one knew he was going to Europe. She informed me before anyone knew he defected that he was in Europe.

Mr. Jenner. Who informed you?

Mr. Pic. Marilyn Murret in Japan. She was in Japan. She visited with me.

Mr. Jenner. All right. I will go into that right after dinner.

Mr. Pic. All right, sir.

Mr. Jenner. We will suspend until 7:30.

(Whereupon, at 6:30 p.m., the proceeding was recessed.)


TESTIMONY OF JOHN EDWARD PIC RESUMED

The proceeding was reconvened at 7:55 p.m.

Mr. Jenner. When we adjourned for dinner you were telling us the incident in August, I believe it was 1958, when you visited your mother and your brother on your way to California on your assignment to Japan.

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Would you read me the last answer of the witness, please?

(The answer, as recorded, was read by the reporter.)

Mr. Jenner. Marilyn Murret is your cousin?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. One of the children of Charles and Lillian Murret?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. By the way, did your wife and children accompany you to Japan?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And you arrived in Japan about when?

Mr. Pic. 10 November 1958, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Were you aware before you left for Japan that Marilyn Murret, was in Japan?

Mr. Pic. She was not in Japan then, sir.

Mr. Jenner. All right. You arrived in Japan and went over there sometime while you were in Japan. By the way, first where were you stationed?

Mr. Pic. My military address was U.S.A.F. Hospital, Tachikawa, APO 323, San Francisco, Calif.

Mr. Jenner. You heard from or saw Marilyn Murret after you got there?

Mr. Pic. Right. In approximately October–November, early November, the end of October 1959 she called me up at the hospital, and it had been years since I had seen her, and she told me she had come from Australia. She was traveling around the world, and I invited her out to the house the next weekend.

She couldn't come during the week. She was teaching school in Japan and as a freelance teacher working for no agency, just doing this to earn her own traveling money. So she visited us on a Sunday, I believe.

We talked about the family and everything. She talked about Lee, about how proud he was to be in the Marine Corps, and he really put on a big show about this.

Mr. Jenner. How did she know that, did she reveal?

Mr. Pic. She had seen him, evidently, when he was first in the Marine Corps. She described him in uniform, and——

49 Mr. Jenner. You had the impression she had actually seen him in Japan?

Mr. Pic. No; she wasn't in Japan the same time he was. This is a year after I am in Japan, sir, before I had seen her.

Mr. Jenner. I see.

Mr. Pic. And she had seen him when he first joined the Marine Corps, is my impression, sometime while he was in the Marine Corps and in the States.

Mr. Jenner. You had the impression that Lee had visited their home in New Orleans?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; that is the impression I got.

Mr. Jenner. Go on.

Mr. Pic. Well, at this time, my mother was still writing to me, I never answered any of her letters. Maybe I would receive a letter from her every once, every 2 or 3 months. I also was aware of the fact that Lee was going to be discharged from the Marine Corps.

Mr. Jenner. You became aware of that through what means?

Mr. Pic. The letters I would receive from my mother. She informed me that Marilyn Murret—that Lee upon his discharge had gone to Europe. I asked her how did he ever decide that, and where did he get the money and she said he saved it while he was in the Marine Corps.

Mr. Jenner. Did she say he had gone to Europe?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir. Her quote, sir, to the best of my knowledge, "Do you know that Lee is in Europe?" I said, "No, I don't know that." I had no way of knowing that. So I started asking her about him, and this is what she told me that Lee had gone to Europe.

It was that night, sir, on the 9 o'clock news that I learned that Lee had defected.

Mr. Jenner. You say 9 o'clock news—was that——

Mr. Pic. Japan time, sir, that night.

Mr. Jenner. I mean, what source was the news?

Mr. Pic. American Armed Forces Network. My wife and I were in bed, and I was about half asleep, and the radio was closest to her and she nudged me and told me, and I said, "No, it couldn't be." So the next day it appeared in the paper.

Mr. Jenner. What paper?

Mr. Pic. The Stars and Stripes, sir. Then I heard it on the radio again the next day. There were a couple or three articles in the Stars and Stripes about his defection. And I reported to the OSI and told them who I was, and I told them who he was. Then I got in contact with the Embassy in Japan.

Mr. Jenner. That is the American Embassy?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; and attempted to contact Lee. The only thing I could get out was a telegram. I think my quote in the telegram was "Please reconsider your actions." This, I understand, was delivered to him at the Metropole Hotel in Moscow. After this defection I received several——

Mr. Jenner. Excuse me.

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. When you heard this what was your reaction?

Mr. Pic. I didn't believe it. I mean my wife told me it was him, and I think I stayed awake until the 10 o'clock news to hear it and they mentioned it, and that was it, and so the next day it was in the paper and that is when I reported to the OSI.

Mr. Jenner. What is OSI?

Mr. Pic. Office of Special Investigator, I believe, for the Air Force.

Mr. Jenner. Well, after the rebroadcasts and you became convinced it was your brother what was your reaction?

Mr. Pic. It was hard to believe. It was just something you never expect.

Mr. Jenner. Had he done or said anything during all your life together which served to lead you to think, well maybe it is so that he has?

Mr. Pic. Well, sir, ever since he was born and I was old enough to remember, I always had a feeling that some great tragedy was going to strike Lee in some way or another, and when this happened I figured this was it. In fact, on the very day of the assassination I was thinking about it when I was getting ready to go to work, and just, I was thinking about him at that time and I figured50 well, when he defected and came back—that was his big tragedy. I found out it wasn't.

Mr. Jenner. Would you give me—elaborate on that. Why did you have a feeling for some time that someday he would have, would suffer a great tragedy?

Mr. Pic. I don't know. It was just one of those things I can't explain. I always had this feeling about him. Not as a kid, of course, but in my young adulthood I thought that about him, especially after the incident in New York. I thought this way. I had this feeling.

Mr. Jenner. You had a feeling at any time that he was groping for a position or station in life, that he realized was beyond his attainment, or any resentment on his part of his station in life?

Mr. Pic. I think he resented the fact that he never really had a father, especially after he lost Mr. Ekdahl and his one and only chance to get what he was looking for. Maybe that is why he looked to Robert and I like he did.

Mr. Jenner. Did you see Marilyn Murret again?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; she and I never discussed this. Those were the orders of OSI, not to discuss it with anyone. I made them aware of her, her presence in Japan. I don't know if they ever contacted her or not, sir. I told them about her mentioning this to me that she knew he was in Europe. How she knew, I don't know, sir. And everything I have read states that no one knew he was going.

Mr. Jenner. But she was in your home?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. The very day that the announcement was made?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. That Lee had defected to Russia?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; and the radio wasn't on or anything. I had the hi-fi, she liked classical music, and I was playing some of my records for her, and at no time during the day did we have any radio broadcasts. She came about noon. Maybe it was on prior to this, I don't think so, because at 9 o'clock——

Mr. Jenner. If it had been on, prior to that time, she didn't mention any defection? All she said to you was, "Did you know that Lee was in Europe?" Is that correct?

Mr. Pic. That is correct, sir. She didn't specify any country. In fact, I asked her what country, and she said she didn't know. She just knew he was in Europe. She had come from Australia to Japan. I think she may have been in Japan a month prior to contacting me, a month, a little less probably.

Mr. Jenner. You saw her again after that, did you?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; she visited our house several times. I think the last time we seen her was about April or May 1960 when she left Japan. We never seen her again. She said she would contact us and tell us when she was leaving, but she never did.

Mr. Jenner. What was your assignment in Japan?

Mr. Pic. I was a medical laboratory technician at the hospital there, sir.

Mr. Jenner. When did you return to the United States?

Mr. Pic. July 1962, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And to where did you return?

Mr. Pic. To Lackland Air Force Base where I am presently stationed. In Japan, there is more that happened, sir.

Mr. Jenner. All right.

Mr. Pic. I received—I wrote Lee, I mean Robert, and asked him about this. Of course in Japan we didn't get much news and the OSI wouldn't tell me too much. The Embassy, all they confirmed is that he did defect. I guess in a period of 2, 3 months I got information from Robert through several letters. Every time I got some information I went to the OSI about this. It seems there was a letter, I don't remember if Robert had copied it from Lee's letter or he had sent me the original letter. I showed this, I gave it to the OSI. If they gave it back, it is destroyed now, sir. In this letter he said that no one should try to contact him because the American capitalists would be listening over the phone. He mentioned that he had been contemplating this act for quite awhile. That no one knew it. This is all in my OSI report.

And from what other information I had, I received the impression that him51 turning toward communism or Marxism, whichever you want to call it, took place while he was in Japan and in the Marine Corps, sir, from the insinuations that were involved in the letter or from his own statements.

Mr. Jenner. Up to this time, Sergeant, in all your association with your brother, had there been occasions when there were discussions with him in the family about any theories or reactions of his toward democracy, communism, Marxism, or any other form of government?

Mr. Pic. Sir, the last time he talked to me, I think he was only about 12, 13 years old.

Mr. Jenner. Well, the answer is no?

Mr. Pic. No, sir; that is the answer—no, sir.

Mr. Jenner. That is that there hadn't been any such discussions?

Mr. Pic. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Jenner. You—I take it from that answer—you never heard him assert any views?

Mr. Pic. No, sir.

Mr. Jenner. On his part, with respect to that subject matter?

Mr. Pic. No, sir.

While I was processing to return to the States, I had seen in the paper and everything that Lee was returning to the United States. When I got my assignment to Lackland, the OSI kind of put it to me that if I didn't want to be in the same vicinity as Lee that they could change my orders, and I told them that the United States felt he was reliable enough for, confident enough in him to let him return, that I would see no reason to change my assignment. The OSI authorities said there was no objection to me visiting him, talking to him or anything else. So I didn't make any attempt to get my assignment changed because of these reasons. Being it was close enough, you know, to see him fairly easily.

Mr. Jenner. Did anything else occur that you think is pertinent to the time of your return to the United States?

Mr. Pic. No, sir; the only thing I knew about him was what I read in the newspaper about him returning with his wife and child.

Mr. Jenner. When you say newspapers this is the Stars and Stripes?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; Stars and Stripes.

Mr. Jenner. That is before you returned to this country you had read in the Stars and Stripes that he had returned to the United States?

Mr. Pic. No, sir; he was on his way, sir.

Mr. Jenner. He was on his way back?

Mr. Pic. He was on his way back at the same time I was on my way back.

Mr. Jenner. You knew he was on his way back, according to the Stars and Stripes, with his wife and child?

Mr. Pic. Yes; sir.

Mr. Jenner. And you arrived at Lackland Air Force Base when?

Mr. Pic. I arrived in the San Antonio area approximately the 21st of July 1962, and got a house, got settled and then I signed in on my base in August. I was permitted 30 days leave, 13 days travel time, which I took advantage of. I think I took 27 days leave. So I started work in August, the latter part of August.

Mr. Jenner. During that period of time of your 30 days' leave, after arriving at Lackland Air Force Base and San Antonio, did you make any attempt to find out anything about your brother, where he was?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; I called Robert, and we wrote a couple of letters, and he told me Lee was back, and he was living in Dallas and working there, and everything seemed to be okay.

Mr. Jenner. Did your brother tell you that Lee, when he returned to this country, had lived with him for a while?

Mr. Pic. I don't know if it was in these conversations. I learned at the Thanksgiving reunion that he did.

Mr. Jenner. Which was Thanksgiving of 1962?

Mr. Pic. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Up to the time you saw your brother, I take it, you saw him Thanksgiving 1962?

52 Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; we arrived at my brother Robert's Thanksgiving Day between about 11:30, 12:30.

Mr. Jenner. In the morning?

Mr. Pic. In the morning. We were to meet Lee and his wife at the Greyhound bus station approximately 2 o'clock. So Robert and I went down to pick him up. We picked them up outside the Greyhound bus station. Whether or not they—we had no way of seeing them getting off a bus. They were at the station when we got there. We did all the friendly sayings and I was——

Mr. Jenner. Tell us what happened now? What was the attitude, what were your impressions?

Mr. Pic. Well, I still was wondering if he was going to have this feeling of hostility toward me that he had shown the last time he had seen me, but it didn't manifest itself whatsoever. He introduced me to his wife, and I gave her a kiss, and his child. We got in the car, and he said I hadn't changed much, and we just talked like that. At no time did Marina speak any English. She would ask him questions in what I believe was Russian and he would talk back to her in—and talk through.

Mr. Jenner. Did you have any discussion with him on that subject—where he had learned Russian?

Mr. Pic. Well, sir, I knew he had been in Russia over 2 years, so evidently he had learned Russian while there.

Mr. Jenner. There was no occasion because of that, it never occurred to you to ask him about how and when he had learned?

Mr. Pic. I wasn't going to pry into his affairs, sir.

Mr. Jenner. You didn't?

Mr. Pic. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. Jenner. Did you inquire of him as to his life in Russia?

Mr. Pic. We let him do the talking, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Did he speak of it?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; he did.

Mr. Jenner. What did he say?

Mr. Pic. He told us he worked in a factory there.

Mr. Jenner. Did he say what kind of work he did?

Mr. Pic. No, sir; he didn't.

Mr. Jenner. What kind of a factory it was?

Mr. Pic. Something to do with metalwork, aluminum, something like that, I believe. He told me he was making about $80 a month, I think, while he worked there.

Mr. Jenner. Did he say he had accommodations that supplemented that salary? Was there anything about whether he had to pay rent or not pay rent for his quarters?

Mr. Pic. He didn't talk about anything prior to him and Marina being married.

Mr. Jenner. He did not?

Mr. Pic. No, sir; all the conversation was after their marriage.

Mr. Jenner. No discussion of his as to why he went to Russia in the first place?

Mr. Pic. No, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Was there any discussion of his defection or attempted defection?

Mr. Pic. Per se, no, sir.

Mr. Jenner. You are qualifying that. You say per se.

Mr. Pic. Right. He did mention that because of his actions he had received a dishonorable discharge from the Marine Corps and that he was attempting to get this changed to an honorable status.

Mr. Jenner. Did he appear bitter about it?

Mr. Pic. He showed us his card which stated dishonorable or bad conduct, something like that. I think it was dishonorable. He showed it to me.

Mr. Jenner. What was his—what impression did you have as to his overall attitude? What impression did you have as to his state of mind?

Mr. Pic. He impressed me that he was glad to be back, that he didn't really enjoy his stay in Russia. He commented about the hard life they had there.

Mr. Jenner. What did he say about that?

Mr. Pic. What did he say, sir?

53 Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mr. Pic. A shortage of food, rationing of certain items, about eating a lot of cabbage. He did say that the U.S. Government gave him the money to come back on. He was in the process of paying them back. In fact, he let it be known that regardless of anything else he was going to pay the Government back.

Mr. Jenner. Did he say "regardless of anything else, I am going to pay them back"? On what do you base that conclusory statement?

Mr. Pic. Well, he made the statement they paid and he is paying them back, and he has got this job and he was telling me his financial situation, and saying so much money is going to pay the Government back.

Mr. Jenner. What did he say about his financial situation?

Mr. Pic. He didn't give me—this is what he gave me for an address. He said he lived in an apartment, one room apartment. They had no television, no radio, no coffee pot. In fact, we brought him a coffee pot for a present. Gave them a coffee pot and bought the little girl a stuffed animal of some type.

Mr. Jenner. Thanksgiving Day you did this?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. How come you brought him a coffee pot?

Mr. Pic. I was going to give him a present.

Mr. Jenner. It is the coffee pot that interests me. Here you hadn't seen him for a long time, you were bringing him a gift—why were you——

Mr. Pic. Well, my wife being a Yankee——

Mr. Jenner. Why did you bring him a coffee pot?

Mr. Pic. My wife in her Yankee ways believed when you don't see people a long time you bring them a gift. It's just a token. We brought my brother Robert a present, a set of dishes I had in Japan, I bought them in Japan, and so naturally we couldn't give them anything without giving the other people something.

Mr. Jenner. It isn't the fact that you brought him a gift. I can understand that. That would be, I might be even a little surprised if you hadn't. It is the particular gift in which I am interested. Why did you select a coffee pot? Was there something that led to that particular selection on your part?

Mr. Pic. No, sir; we didn't know what really to bring them, and my wife says, it was one of these glass coffee pots that you put the candle under, you see, it wasn't a regular percolator. It was one of these that a hostess always likes to have available to pour coffee out of.

Mr. Jenner. I see.

Mr. Pic. And my wife had one, and she liked it so she figured we would give them one.

Mr. Jenner. All right.

Tell us everything that occurred on that day, what he said, what Robert said that is pertinent, what you said, things that occurred, just completely exhaust your recollection.

Mr. Pic. Well, Lee informed us that he was working at some type photography printing company.

Mr. Jenner. In Dallas?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; in Dallas.

Mr. Jenner. You were advised during the course of that day he was then at that time living in Dallas?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; that is what he said.

Mr. Jenner. And working in some kind of photographic work in Dallas?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. All right.

Mr. Pic. I said he referred to their living conditions.

Mr. Jenner. What did he say?

Mr. Pic. They had a one-room, I think it was one room. They ate and slept in the same room, I believe. They had no radio, no TV. That Marina, when they first arrived, was really astounded about supermarkets. Every time she went in one she lost control of herself.

Marina herself wore no lipstick, very plainly dressed. Lee appeared to be54 a good father in that he would relieve Marina the burden of holding the child and taking care of it.

Mr. Jenner. How was he attired when you met him at the bus station?

Mr. Pic. He had on a sport jacket and tie. Sports jacket and tie.

Mr. Jenner. He was clean and neat?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. How did Marina and your brother Lee appear to be getting along?

Mr. Pic. Well, sir; being they only spoke Russian to each other, I don't know what they said but they appeared to be just like any other married couple married a year or 2.

Mr. Jenner. Was there any conversation during the course of the day in which you participated or overheard as to Marina's undertaking to learn English?

Mr. Pic. Well, my sister-in-law, Vada——

Mr. Jenner. That is Robert's wife?

Mr. Pic. Wife. Of course, she had, she and my wife had a lot to say to each other, and through my wife, I found out what Vada had said to her, that Lee did not permit Marina to wear any lipstick, he did not permit her to learn English. My wife, she thought this was really absurd and said the best thing to do was to get them a TV set and let her sit home and learn English. My wife thought it was terrible the way her conditions were as far as this was concerned. The girls seemed to gather in the dinette and we sat around in the living room, talking.

Mr. Jenner. Was anything said by Vada or your wife on that occasion as to the reason why Lee was not permitting Marina to learn English and speak it and write it?

Mr. Pic. Well, my wife assumed that if she did ever learn English she would wise up, being we had seen the Japanese wise with their husbands. For example, while they were living over in Japan and the wife is usually meek and mild but when they get over here they change, you see, she gets her American ways, and lowers the boom on the husband like all the other American wives do. And my wife was under the impression that this would happen if once she did learn English and everything.

Mr. Jenner. All right. Keep talking about what occurred on this particular day, what was said, what your impressions were until you exhaust all of your recollection.

Mr. Pic. Well, Marina and the two wives helped prepare the meal, set the table, and we ate, and there was family talk. At no time did we mention our mother. She wasn't present. In fact—I will take that statement back.

Some time during our stay there Vada mentioned that she had seen my mother driving around with a man and she thought she had remarried. This may have been that day, it may have been a day or so later. We stayed there Thursday, Friday, and Saturday and we left Sunday.

Mr. Jenner. Was anything said during the course of that occasion or in your presence or reported to you by your wife, as to how Vada and Marina had gotten along while the Oswalds, your brother, and she lived with your brother Robert and your sister-in-law Vada?

Mr. Pic. I wouldn't remember that, sir. If it was any talk it was probably on caring, and so forth, about the child and so forth, which is small talk to the men, of course.

Mr. Jenner. Did you learn on that day that Lee had lived with your brother for a while?

Mr. Pic. I had learned during that time period that Lee and Marina had lived with Robert when they returned, and that an attempt was made by the press and TV to contact them, but Robert wouldn't let them. He wasn't going to go through it again. Robert only had a one—two-bedroom apartment, I mean house, and I am sure when we stayed there we were crowded a little bit. My wife and I slept on the floor, and I am sure Marina and Robert, I don't know where they slept—I mean Lee.

Mr. Jenner. Your children slept in the bed and you and your wife slept on a mattress on the floor?

55 Mr. Pic. A couple of blankets on the floor, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Did you learn during that period of time that Lee had lived with your brother for a time?

Mr. Pic. Possibly, sir; I don't recall.

Mr. Jenner. Was anything said about the fact or any allusion to the fact that during this period, up to Thanksgiving Day, there had been a time when Marina had not lived with your brother Lee?

Mr. Pic. No, sir. I understood they arrived from New York, at New York together, and proceeded—there was a short stay, I think, mentioned in New York. Where they stayed, I don't know, sir, and then they proceeded to Texas and lived with Robert.

Mr. Jenner. I am referring particularly to September and October and part of November 1962. Was there any reference or any discussion of it or anything said in your presence of the fact that Marina had lived apart, separate and apart from Lee?

Mr. Pic. No, sir.

Mr. Jenner. During one or more periods of time in September or October and November 1962?

Mr. Pic. Possibly it could have been being Marina stayed there while Lee went to look for a job in Dallas. I think, that may have been mentioned.

Mr. Jenner. Was there at any time mentioned even while he was working in Fort Worth, fully employed that she had separated from him and gone to live elsewhere?

Mr. Pic. I am not aware that he did work in Fort Worth, sir, at any time.

Mr. Jenner. You didn't learn at that time, Thanksgiving, that he had worked in Fort Worth?

Mr. Pic. No, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Was the Leslie Welding Co. mentioned at all?

Mr. Pic. Something about welding was mentioned, that he tried it when he first came back, now that you mention it.

Mr. Jenner. Was it your impression or did you gain the impression then that he had had some employment in Fort Worth then as a welder?

Mr. Pic. I don't remember if it was Fort Worth, sir, or where it was. I just know that welding was mentioned.

Mr. Jenner. In that connection, was it mentioned or in any fashion indicated to you that he had been employed as a welder whether in Fort Worth or otherwise, but he had been employed as a welder?

Mr. Pic. It was my impression because of his experience in the Soviet Union working with metals that this helped him in getting his job as a welder.

Mr. Jenner. When he first returned?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And that that was a position or work that he had had prior to the time that he obtained the position in Dallas about which he spoke?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. That is a position preceding his work in the photography field in some firm in Dallas?

Mr. Pic. Right.

Mr. Jenner. Anything said about his financial status—that is, his and Marina's, and the child?

Mr. Pic. Well, he said he wasn't making very much money, but they were managing to get by. They couldn't afford a TV, couldn't afford a radio, couldn't afford these necessities of life.

Mr. Jenner. Did he say anything during the course of that day on the subject of any political philosophy of his?

Mr. Pic. No, sir; not at all.

Mr. Jenner. Politics wasn't discussed?

Mr. Pic. No, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Whether party politics or politics in the broad sense?

Mr. Pic. No, sir; not at all.

Mr. Jenner. How did he look to you physically as compared with when you had seen him last?

Mr. Pic. I would have never recognized him, sir.

56 Mr. Jenner. All right. Your brother Robert said something along these lines. You had last seen him in 19—that was prior to this occasion, the last time you had seen him was when he was in New York City?

Mr. Pic. Which was a little over 10 years.

Mr. Jenner. Well, just about 10 years.

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Of course you had seen him in February 1953, I think you said.

Mr. Pic. Right. But we walked in and he walked out.

Mr. Jenner. But you saw him?

Mr. Pic. Right, I had seen him for a moment.

Mr. Jenner. He was then at that particular time in the neighborhood of 13 years of age?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Now, when you saw him 10 years later he was 23.

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. You noticed, did you, a material change, physically first, let's take his physical appearance?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir. Physically I noticed that.

Mr. Jenner. What did you notice?

Mr. Pic. He was much thinner than I had remembered him. He didn't have as much hair.

Mr. Jenner. Did that arrest your attention? Was that a material difference? Did that strike you?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; it struck me quite profusely.

Mr. Jenner. What else did you notice about his physical appearance that arrested your attention?

Mr. Pic. His face features were somewhat different, being his eyes were set back maybe, you know like in these Army pictures, they looked different than I remembered him. His face was rounder. Marilyn had described him to me when he went in the Marine Corps as having a bull neck. This I didn't notice at all. I looked for this, I didn't notice this at all, sir.

Mr. Jenner. He seemed more slender?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. He had materially less hair?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. His eyes seemed a little sunken?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Did he give you the appearance of—was he taut, was he relaxed or taut, or just what appearance did he have in that connection?

Mr. Pic. Sir, he didn't strike me as being relaxed because I was not with him.

Mr. Jenner. You were not?

Mr. Pic. No, sir; because of these other feelings we had developed 10 years prior to this. I wondered about how he still felt about that.

Mr. Jenner. But nothing occurred to lead you to believe that he still remembered it vividly, or did or didn't?

Mr. Pic. When he was introduced to my wife again he did mention that he remembered her. But other than that, he completely ignored her.

Mr. Jenner. Was that pretty obvious?

Mr. Pic. To her it was, sir. She mentioned it to me several times. He arrived about 2.

Mr. Jenner. In the afternoon?

Mr. Pic. Right; and that is when we picked him up, so I guess we ate about 3, 4 o'clock or so. And then the girls cleared off the table and they sat and had coffee and I took them out, they wanted to see my car.

Mr. Jenner. Took who out?

Mr. Pic. Lee and Robert both. They looked at my car.

Mr. Jenner. Did you take Marina out with you?

Mr. Pic. No; she stayed in the house with the girls, and we talked about cars.

Mr. Jenner. What did he say about a car?

Mr. Pic. I was made aware sometime during the day that he wasn't driving. Other than this——

57 Mr. Jenner. How did you become aware of that?

Mr. Pic. He said he couldn't get a license, to me.

Mr. Jenner. Did he say why he couldn't get a license?

Mr. Pic. He said it and give me the impression because of his citizenship status being he had a dishonorable discharge.

Mr. Jenner. Did you ever see your brother Lee Harvey Oswald drive an automobile?

Mr. Pic. No, sir; never in my life.

Mr. Jenner. While you boys were still in Fort Worth and before you enlisted in the Coast Guard in January 1950 had you—you had an automobile, didn't you?

Mr. Pic. I drove the family car.

Mr. Jenner. Did your brother Robert drive?

Mr. Pic. He may have known how. He was not permitted to drive the family car.

Mr. Jenner. I remember when I was a boy I wasn't permitted to drive the family car, in the broad sense.

Mr. Pic. Right. He never swiped it.

Mr. Jenner. I was permitted to drive it up and down the driveway or when my father was with me, I could drive it around the block or something like that the way kids do. Was Robert permitted to do that on a limited scale?

Mr. Pic. I wouldn't remember that, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Did you own what we used to call in my day an old jalopy while you were still in Fort Worth?

Mr. Pic. That picture of that automobile there was quite an old jalopy, sir.

Mr. Jenner. That was before you enlisted?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Did your brother Robert ever drive that?

Mr. Pic. To the best of my recollection, no, sir. In fact, I only drove it a few times myself. This is the picture with the dog.

Mr. Jenner. That is the picture of the car in John Pic's Exhibit No. 55?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Lee never drove it, to your knowledge?

Mr. Pic. No, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Was your brother Robert interested in automobiles?

Mr. Pic. All kids are interested in automobiles.

Mr. Jenner. No; please—was he interested in automobiles?

Mr. Pic. Sure, he wanted to drive. He seen I was driving so he wanted to drive and he wasn't as old as I was, I was permitted to drive and he wasn't.

Mr. Jenner. What about your brother Lee Harvey Oswald in that respect?

Mr. Pic. I don't know if he ever was really interested at that age to drive a car or not, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Was anything said on the day, Thanksgiving Day 1962, to lead you to believe that he knew how to drive or operate an automobile?

Mr. Pic. No, sir.

Mr. Jenner. By the way, are you right handed?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Is your brother Lee right or left handed?

Mr. Pic. I think he was right handed, sir. I think we were all right handed, Robert had tendencies toward the left hand and I think my mother made him change.

Mr. Jenner. Was anything said during the course of that occasion when you saw him about his experiences in the Marines?

Mr. Pic. There probably was, sir, but I don't remember what they referred to. I know he told me he was at Atsugo Naval Air Station. This I didn't know until he told me exactly where he was in Japan. I was familiar with the Atsugo area.

Mr. Jenner. Did he say anything about having been in the Philippines?

Mr. Pic. Reading the magazine I now know that——

Mr. Jenner. Did he say anything then?

Mr. Pic. No, sir; at that time I don't remember knowing that he had been in the Philippines.

58 Mr. Jenner. Did he say anything about ever having been in Formosa?

Mr. Pic. No, sir. Just Japan, I think possibly Korea, maybe, was mentioned.

Mr. Jenner. But there was no discussion of his marine career to speak of?

Mr. Pic. He was affiliated with radar, he told me, radio radar.

Mr. Jenner. Did the subject arise of why he went to Russia?

Mr. Pic. No, sir.

Mr. Jenner. That was not discussed at all?

Mr. Pic. No, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Nothing was said? Anything said about his experiences in Russia prior to the time he became married there?

Mr. Pic. No sir; he didn't mention that at all to me.

Mr. Jenner. And anything said about his problems with the—I will withdraw that.

Was anything said about his defection or attempted defection to Russia?

Mr. Pic. No, sir; he did not mention his defection at all. Why he did it or how he did it, he didn't mention anything, and I didn't ask him.

Mr. Jenner. During the several days you were in Fort Worth visiting your brother Robert, did you and he go hunting?

Mr. Pic. We went fishing, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Fishing? I take it you did not go hunting.

Mr. Pic. No, sir; not at that particular time. When I first went there in 1958, we did go hunting.

Mr. Jenner. I see. When you three boys were in Fort Worth, that is before you enlisted in January 1950, did you boys occasionally go hunting?

Mr. Pic. We had no firearms whatsoever, sir, in the house.

Mr. Jenner. So you did not go hunting?

Mr. Pic. I didn't. Robert possibly did with some friends of his. I don't think Lee ever did. We went fishing several times.

Mr. Jenner. After you returned to this country in 1962, thereafter there were occasions, where there, or some one occasion, at least, when you did go squirrel or rabbit hunting with your brother Robert?

Mr. Pic. No, sir; that was in 1958.

Mr. Jenner. Oh, yes. When you were traveling across country to California?

Mr. Pic. Yes; we went to his in-law's farm and we did a little hunting on his father-in-law's property.

Mr. Jenner. What kind of firearms?

Mr. Pic. .22, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Single shot?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. You say the subject of your mother was not mentioned in the course of this Thanksgiving Day visit?

Mr. Pic. No, sir; Robert and I never brought her up in any conversations we had.

Mr. Jenner. Did Lee?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. What did he say about her?

Mr. Pic. He mentioned her, that he had seen her or been in touch with her when he first came back, maybe even stayed with her for a week or two when he first came back, I don't remember. My wife later told me that Marina couldn't get along with my mother.

Mr. Jenner. Marina told your wife that she couldn't get along with your mother?

Mr. Pic. No, sir; I think it was Vada told my wife that Marina couldn't. I think she rather observed this rather than being told by Marina.

Mr. Jenner. I see.

Mr. Pic. That the two of them, not that they didn't get along, but that Marina disliked her.

Mr. Jenner. Is that the last time you saw your brother Lee?

Mr. Pic. Well, sir, in the course of that Thanksgiving Day, my brother Robert offered to drive him back to the bus station. Lee made a phone call and it was my understanding that the people that he phoned were of Russian descent, and that Marina often visited with them or talked with them, so she59 could talk in her own native tongue, and that their boy, who was attending, I believe, the University of Oklahoma——

Mr. Jenner. Paul Gregory?

Mr. Pic. Sir, I don't remember his name at all, because I was mad at the time I was introduced to him.

Mr. Jenner. Introduced to whom?

Mr. Pic. This gentleman who picked him up.

Mr. Jenner. Was he a young man?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. All right, tell us the circumstances, tell us what led up to this incident, and tell us all about the incident.

Mr. Pic. Well, they made the phone call, and Lee said that they would be picked up by their friends, and I think sometime between 6 and 7 that night he came by. Now, my brother Robert, whenever he introduces me to anyone always refers to me as his brother. Lee referred to me as his half brother when he introduced me.

Mr. Jenner. On this occasion?

Mr. Pic. It was very pronounced. He wanted to let the man know I was only his half brother. And this kind of peeved me a little bit. Because we never mentioned the fact that we were half brothers.

Mr. Jenner. You never had that feeling?

Mr. Pic. No, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Was this the first time that your brother had ever introduced you to anyone as his half brother? I am talking about your brother Lee now.

Mr. Pic. I think possibly, sir, this is the first time he ever introduced me to anyone.

Mr. Jenner. Was this the first time he had ever referred to you as your half brother?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. His half brother?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Is that so?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And that irritated you on this occasion?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir. Right then and there I had the feeling that the hostile feeling was still there. Up until this time it didn't show itself, but I felt then, well, he still felt the same way.

Mr. Jenner. This young man from the University of Oklahoma, whose name, by the way, was Gregory——

Mr. Pic. He was at the University of Oklahoma.

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mr. Pic. I have said this three or four times, I wasn't certain, but I am sure he was and I was introduced to him as Lee's half brother, and the man was studying Russian at the school. His parents were from Russia.

Mr. Jenner. He came alone, did he?

Mr. Pic. The car was parked out front, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Well, he was alone when he came in?

Mr. Pic. He was in the house alone.

Mr. Jenner. Was it night?

Mr. Pic. Yes; it was dark between 6 and 7 in November.

Mr. Jenner. Did you go out to the car?

Mr. Pic. No; I didn't. We stayed in the house.

Mr. Jenner. Did Robert go out to the car?

Mr. Pic. I don't remember, sir. I don't think so.

Mr. Jenner. Did Marina appear to be acquainted with this young man?

Mr. Pic. Yes; as soon as he walked in she started talking Russian to him.

Mr. Jenner. Did he respond in Russian?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Lee spoke to him in Russian?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Except when he was introducing you to him he introduced you in English as his half brother?

60 Mr. Pic. Well, Lee would speak to him part Russian, part English. He was only there maybe a couple or 3 minutes. I had the impression that this gentleman could speak Russian better than Lee.

Mr. Jenner. What gave you that impression?

Mr. Pic. Because Lee wouldn't converse fully with him in Russian whereas him and Marina did converse fully in Russian.

Mr. Jenner. Any other impressions you got of this several hours visit with your brother Lee?

Mr. Pic. Well, right before they left, sir; I told him that if he needs any help or anything, to let me know. I told him I was unable to help him financially but he is welcome to pay us a visit any time he wished, stay with us, talk like that.

Mr. Jenner. What did he say?

Mr. Pic. He said OK. He told me to write to him, and in this book, sir, which I had there he wrote his post office box address in Dallas.

Mr. Jenner. We will give that little book, to which you make reference, John Pic Exhibit No. 60.

(The document referred to was marked John Pic Exhibit No. 60 for identification.)

Mr. Jenner. I have John Pic Exhibit No. 60 in my hand. What is this?

Mr. Pic. A black memo book, I guess.

Mr. Jenner. Of yours?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; I had it in my car at the time. Whenever I travel I keep a little book with my mileage on it and so forth.

Mr. Jenner. I notice that the fist ruled page of this book on which there appear some figures, the letter "B" and then there are some handwritings which appears to be Russian. I show that to you.

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. In whose handwriting is that?

Mr. Pic. That is in the handwriting of Marina Oswald, sir.

Mr. Jenner. What was the occasion of her writing in this book?

Mr. Pic. Only part of this, sir, is in the handwriting of Marina Oswald. This right here [indicating].

Mr. Jenner. That is the word beginning with the letter, it looks like the letter "N" or "M" and the word right below that beginning with the letter "D," and a word right below that beginning, it looks like a capital "H"?

Mr. Pic. That is right, sir. The other ones are in my handwriting.

Mr. Jenner. The others are all figures?

Mr. Pic. Right.

Mr. Jenner. What was the occasion of her writing that on the page?

Mr. Pic. She being a pharmacist, and me being in the medical field, we tried to communicate with each other just to make small talk with medical terminology, metric system and so forth, just some way to kill time with each other she and I seemed to be able to do this to some degree.

Mr. Jenner. That is to communicate?

Mr. Pic. Yes; as long as we stuck within the pharmacy and medical field.

Mr. Jenner. Did she know some English terms in the pharmacy, medical field?

Mr. Pic. She used Latin phrases, some of which were familiar to me.

Mr. Jenner. Just what was that writing, some medical terms?

Mr. Pic. Yes; I think these are names of drugs she was writing down. I wouldn't know.

Mr. Jenner. There is a large letter "B" on that page. How did that get on there?

Mr. Pic. I don't know, sir. I don't know, sir. I wouldn't venture a guess whose handwriting it is.

Mr. Jenner. There is a square to the left of the handwriting in Russian, what does that signify?

Mr. Pic. This was placed there by the Secret Service, in San Antonio, sir, to identify the handwritings in this book, the square being the handwriting of Marina Oswald, the parentheses being the handwriting of myself and the mark with the circle being the handwriting of Lee Harvey Oswald.

61 Mr. Jenner. So that wherever throughout that book a zero appears that is the handwriting of Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Wherever the parentheses mark appears that is your handwriting?

Mr. Pic. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And wherever the square appears that is Marina's handwriting?

Mr. Pic. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Turn the page over. On the reverse side of that page that is all your handwriting?

Mr. Pic. Except this up here, sir.

Mr. Jenner. The reverse side of the previous page.

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; that is my handwriting.

Mr. Jenner. All right. Now, the front side of the next page which has the letter "A" printed on it, in the upper right-hand corner. Is that in your handwriting?

Mr. Pic. Everything except this top portion, sir.

Mr. Jenner. The top portion?

Mr. Pic. Starting with liquid measure would be my handwriting.

Mr. Jenner. And then there is something above that?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Whose handwriting is that?

Mr. Pic. I believe that to be Marina Oswald's, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Everything below that is yours?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. All right. The reverse side of that page, that is the reverse side of the "A" page is in whose handwriting?

Mr. Pic. My handwriting, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Then the page opposite that?

Mr. Pic. That is in my handwriting, sir.

Mr. Jenner. The reverse side of that page is blank. Then the face of the next page is some figures and the words "Highway start, Fort Worth," and "highway" again, those are all in whose handwriting?

Mr. Pic. My handwriting, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Then the series of pages are blank, and the first writing we see thereafter is on the "C" page, some letters and a figure. Whose handwriting is that?

Mr. Pic. That is mine, sir.

Mr. Jenner. The next handwriting appears on the last ruled page. Whose handwriting is that?

Mr. Pic. That is the handwriting of my wife, sir.

Mr. Jenner. All of it?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; she loves to write her name.

Mr. Jenner. All right. Then on the next to the last page in the book which is a plain white page, appears P.O. Box 2195, Dallas, Tex.

Mr. Pic. That is the handwriting of Lee Harvey Oswald, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And on the opposite page, which is the inside of the back cover——

Mr. Pic. This is the identifying mark in the hand of Secret Service Agent Ben A. Vidles, in San Antonio, Tex.

Mr. Jenner. This book is in the same condition now as it was?

Mr. Pic. When I gave it to the Secret Service.

Mr. Jenner. When you gave it to the Secret Service.

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Plus the identifying marks you have described?

Mr. Pic. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Jenner. I offer in evidence a document, memorandum book now marked as "John Pic Exhibit No. 60."

(The document heretofore marked for identification as John Pic Exhibit No. 60 was received in evidence.)

Mr. Jenner. Did you thereafter prior to November 22, up to but prior to November 22, 1963, hear anything about your brother?

Mr. Pic. The day or two after they left Robert and I went fishing. While we62 were in the boat there was Robert, myself, and my oldest boy, and at this time I asked him about Lee, I asked him if he considered or thought that Lee was a little on the pink side and just how he was getting along. Robert informed me that he had had seen FBI agents once in awhile who said Lee was doing pretty good and that there was nothing to worry about. And all reports that he had had were favorable towards Lee.

Mr. Jenner. Robert did tell you that the FBI had checked with him?

Mr. Pic. He had seen an agent now and then, sir.

Mr. Jenner. He didn't elaborate as to whether the FBI had come to visit him or whether he had merely run into some FBI agent?

Mr. Pic. I had the impression that they had visited him where he worked, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Did you hear anything else about your brother from that occasion up to but not including November 22, 1963?

Mr. Pic. Well, other information I gathered from my talks with Robert in those few days was that Lee and Marina made the trip to see them in Fort Worth fairly regular, to have dinner, things like this. It seems that Vada and Marina were at one time, I was told, talking——

Mr. Jenner. By whom?

Mr. Pic. hutchesonBy Vada, Marina was trying to make a point about her wedding ring being she couldn't speak English, Vada got the impression that Marina had been married before.

Mr. Jenner. That Marina had been married before?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; this is the only thing she could gather from Marina flashing her wedding ring and talking about this. The four of us were present, Robert, myself, and the two wives. But this was done over coffee.

Mr. Jenner. This was after Lee and Marina had left?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; this was after they had left.

Mr. Jenner. What did Robert say on that subject, if anything?

Mr. Pic. Nothing. That he didn't think she had been married before.

Mr. Jenner. Did you visit your brother Robert, and did he visit you subsequent to that occasion on Thanksgiving up to but not including November 22, 1963?

Mr. Pic. A couple or 3 days prior to Christmas of 1962, Robert and his family returned the visit to our home in San Antonio, sir. I asked Robert this time if he had seen or heard from Lee since we had last seen him and he told me, no.

Mr. Jenner. Was there any comment on that subject that he had not heard from Lee up to that time?

Mr. Pic. It was really only a matter of 3 or 4 weeks at the most, sir.

Mr. Jenner. So it didn't occasion any surprise on your part?

Mr. Pic. No, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Were you given any other information by Robert with respect to Lee?

Mr. Pic. No, sir; not that I recall.

Mr. Jenner. Did you see Robert again subsequent to this pre-Christmas Party 1962?

Mr. Pic. No, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And up to but not including November 22, 1963?

Mr. Pic. I still haven't seen him since Christmas 1962.

Mr. Jenner. Have you corresponded?

Mr. Pic. We have written a few letters, and I was permitted to make a phone call to him right after the assassination.

Mr. Jenner. What did he say in the course of that conversation? What did you say?

Mr. Pic. This was—I was permitted to make the phone call after Lee's murder. The Secret Service said I could contact Robert. He had called where I worked and left a number. I contacted the Secret Service. They told me go ahead and call this number, call them back and tell them the gist of the conversation.

I called him up at this number. Someone answered the phone and I asked for Robert and they called him to the phone. He told me that he and his—told me his wife and children were at the farm with her folks, I believe that is what he told me. That he was—he couldn't tell me where he was but he was in Arlington, Tex.

63 Mr. Jenner. Robert was?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; under custody of the Secret Service.

Mr. Jenner. What day of the week was this?

Mr. Pic. This was Sunday, sir.

Mr. Jenner. The day of the death of your brother?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. The 24th of November 1963?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. What else was said?

Mr. Pic. He told me that some local business people would make arrangements for the funeral and there would be no expense to him. I told him I was sorry it happened and everything.

Mr. Jenner. Did he say anything about having seen your brother at the Dallas City Police Station prior to this telephone conversation?

Mr. Pic. No, sir; he didn't.

Mr. Jenner. Was there any discussion in this telephone conversation about the assassination of President Kennedy?

Mr. Pic. No, sir; there wasn't.

Mr. Jenner. About the possible involvement of your brother in that connection?

Mr. Pic. No, sir; there wasn't.

Mr. Jenner. I take it, then, it was confined largely, if not exclusively, to the death of your brother?

Mr. Pic. The conversation was just about as I related it, sir. It was mostly confined to the death of Lee.

Mr. Jenner. And his burial?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Did you attend the funeral services?

Mr. Pic. No, sir; I was not permitted. In fact, the Secret Service did not let me write Robert for, I think, 7 to 8 days after the assassination. At that time they granted me permission to freely correspond with him.

Mr. Jenner. And you did so?

Mr. Pic. I think we have written about two, three letters back and forth. I am the one who fails to write. He never fails to write.

Mr. Jenner. The subject matter of these letters involved Lee; any of them?

Mr. Pic. I think the very first one I got concerned the welfare of his family. They were out at the farm. That his company treated him very good about all the time lost. That Marina asked about us and how we were getting along. In my return letter to him I told him nobody had bothered us and we were getting along just fine. He informed me that he was—I suggested if they could, to come down and stay with us awhile. We had just purchased a new house, we had the room, and he wrote back and told me that because he had missed all the time because of the incidents he was unable to get any more time from his company without losing his job.

Mr. Jenner. Have you seen Marina in the meantime?

Mr. Pic. No, sir.

Mr. Jenner. The last time you saw her, I take it, then, was Thanksgiving Day 1962?

Mr. Pic. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Has there been any correspondence between you?

Mr. Pic. No, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Has there been any correspondence that was indirect in any fashion?

Mr. Pic. My last letter I received from Robert was right after he appeared here. He mentioned that Marina often asked about my wife and I. Other than this, there has been no mention. He has mentioned about the grave being desecrated, and some information concerning the gravesite of Lee.

Mr. Jenner. Before I return to some specifics, is there anything else that has occurred to you in your reflection on this matter that you would like to mention?

Mr. Pic. The actual assassination, that time period or what, sir?

Mr. Jenner. Well, anything you think that might be relevant to the Commission's investigation as to the circumstances surrounding the assassination64 of President Kennedy, any persons involved therein, the subsequent death of your brother.

Mr. Pic. Most of the information that I have seen and heard has been all new to me, like his escapades in New Orleans, passing out the leaflets and his radio program.

Mr. Jenner. Those incidents, by the way, were unknown to you until after the assassination, I take it?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; I assure you if I had known he was doing his escapades again I would have went to the proper authorities about it.

Mr. Jenner. I show you an exhibit, a series of exhibits, first Commission Exhibit No. 281 and Exhibit No. 282 being some spread pages of an issue of Life magazine of February 21, 1964. I direct your attention first to the lower left-hand spread at the bottom of the page. Do you recognize the area shown there?

Mr. Pic. No, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Do you see somebody in that picture that appears to be your brother?

Mr. Pic. This one here with the arrow.

Mr. Jenner. The one that has the printed arrow?

Mr. Pic. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And you recognize that as your brother?

Mr. Pic. Because they say so, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Please, I don't want you to say——

Mr. Pic. No; I couldn't recognize that.

Mr. Jenner. Because this magazine says that it is.

Mr. Pic. No, sir; I couldn't recognize him from that picture.

Mr. Jenner. You don't recognize anybody else in the picture after studying it that appears to be your brother? When I say your brother now, I am talking about Lee.

Mr. Pic. No, sir.

Mr. Jenner. In the upper portion there are a series of photographs spread from left-hand page across to the right-hand page. Take those on the left which appears to be a photograph of three young men. Do you recognize the persons shown in that photograph?

Mr. Pic. Yes; I recognize this photograph, the people from left to right being Robert Oswald, the center one being Lee Oswald, and the third one being myself. This picture was taken at the house in Dallas when we returned from New Orleans.

Mr. Jenner. You mean from—when you came from New Orleans after being at the Bethlehem Orphanage Home?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And you went to Dallas?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. It was taken in Dallas at or about that time?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. The next one is prominent; in front is a picture of a young boy. There is a partially shown girl and apparently another boy with a striped shirt in the background. Do you recognize that picture?

Mr. Pic. Yes; I recognize that as Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. Jenner. Do you have any impression as to when and where that was taken?

Mr. Pic. Just looking at the picture, I would guess first, second grade, maybe. I would have to guess at it.

Mr. Jenner. Then there is one immediately to the right of that, a young man in the foreground sitting on the floor, with his knees, legs crossed, and his arms also crossed. There are some other people apparently in the background.

Mr. Pic. I recognize that as Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. Jenner. Does anything about the picture enable you to identify as to where that was taken?

Mr. Pic. No, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Then to the right there is a picture of two young men, the upper portion of the—one young man at the bottom and then apparently a young man65 standing up in back of that person. Do you recognize either of those young people?

Mr. Pic. Yes; I recognize Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. Jenner. Is he the one to which the black arrow is pointing?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Then right below that is a picture of a young man standing in front of an iron fence, which appears to be probably at a zoo. Do you recognize that?

Mr. Pic. Sir, from that picture, I could not recognize that that is Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. Jenner. That young fellow is shown there, he doesn't look like you recall Lee looked in 1952 and 1953 when you saw him in New York City?

Mr. Pic. No, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Commission Exhibit No. 284—do you recognize anybody in that picture that appears to be Lee Oswald?

Mr. Pic. No, sir.

Mr. Jenner. There is a young fellow in the foreground—everybody else is facing the other way. He is in a pantomime, or grimace. Do you recognize that as Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. Pic. No, sir; looking at that picture—and I have looked at it several times—that looks more like Robert than it does Lee, to my recollection.

Mr. Jenner. All right. On Exhibit No. 286, the lower right-hand corner, there is another picture. Do you recognize that as your brother Lee in that picture?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; that is about how he looked when I seen him in 1962, his profile.

Mr. Jenner. Do you recognize the person, the lady to the right who is pointing her finger at him?

Mr. Pic. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. Jenner. Exhibit No. 287 is two figures, taking them from top to bottom and in the lower right-hand corner, do you recognize those?

Mr. Pic. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. Jenner. Neither one of them?

Mr. Pic. No, sir. The lower one appears to me to look like Robert rather than Lee. The upper one, unless they tell me that, I would never guess that that would be Lee, sir.

Mr. Jenner. All right. Exhibit No. 288, there is in the lower left-hand corner, there is a reproduction of a service card and a reproduction, also, of a photograph with the head of a man. Do you recognize that?

Mr. Pic. That looks to me approximately how Lee Oswald looked when I seen him Thanksgiving 1962.

Mr. Jenner. Directing your attention to Exhibit, Commission Exhibit No. 289, do you recognize any of the servicemen shown in that picture as your brother Lee?

Mr. Pic. No, sir; I do not recognize them.

Mr. Jenner. Exhibit No. 290, the lower left-hand corner there is a photograph of a young lady and a young man. Do you recognize either of those persons?

Mr. Pic. He appears to me as Lee Harvey Oswald in 1962 when I seen him.

Mr. Jenner. And the lady?

Mr. Pic. She is his wife, Marina, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Commission Exhibit No. 291, at the bottom of the page, there is a picture of a young man handing out a leaflet, and another man to the left of him who is reaching out for it. Do you recognize the young man handing out the leaflet?

Mr. Pic. No, sir; I would be unable to recognize him.

Mr. Jenner. As to whether he was your brother?

Mr. Pic. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. Exhibit No. 292, in the upper right-hand corner, is a picture of a lady, a young lady with a child. Do you recognize either of those persons?

Mr. Pic. Yes; I recognize Marina Oswald.

Mr. Jenner. And the baby?

Mr. Pic. No, sir; I couldn't recognize the baby.

Mr. Jenner. Below that is a picture purporting to be that of your brother with66 a pistol on his right hip, and with a firearm, a rifle in his left hand holding up what appear to be some leaflets. Do you recognize that as your brother Lee?

Mr. Pic. That is how he looked to me in 1962 when I seen him, sir.

Mr. Jenner. That is a duplicate of the picture on the cover. You have produced for us a series of letters from your mother to yourself, from your brother Lee to yourself, and from your brother Robert to yourself which have been marked John Pic Exhibits Nos. 6 through 47, inclusive.

Did you assist Mr. Ely, in the preparation of this list of exhibits?

Mr. Pic. No, sir; I arranged the stacks. He took it from the stacks I arranged previously.

Mr. Jenner. For the purpose of the record, then, John Pic Exhibit No. 6 is a letter from Marguerite Oswald to John Pic, postmarked May 8, 1950, and its accompanying envelope as John Pic Exhibit No. 6-A. John Pic Exhibit No. 7 is a letter from your mother to you, postmarked May 23, 1950, or the envelope is so postmarked. Its accompanying envelope being marked John Pic Exhibit No. 7-A. John Pic Exhibit No. 8, a letter from Marguerite Oswald to John Pic enclosed in envelope, Exhibit No. 8-A, postmarked at Fort Worth, May 24, 1950.

By the way, Exhibit No. 6-A is postmarked Fort Worth. All of these exhibits until I indicate otherwise from here on are marked with a return address to M. Oswald, 9048 Ewing, Fort Worth, Tex.

Mr. Pic. 7408.

Mr. Jenner. What did I say? 7408; that is correct. You are right.

Exhibit No. 9 is a letter from Marguerite Oswald to John Pic, accompanying envelope is Exhibit No. 9-A postmarked June 9, 1950.

Exhibit No. 10 and its reverse side, which is marked Exhibit No. 10-B, is a letter from Lee Harvey Oswald to John Pic enclosed in envelope marked John Pic Exhibit No. 10-A, postmarked at Fort Worth, Tex., on August 23, 1950. This envelope has no return address on it.

Exhibit No. 11 is a letter from Marguerite Oswald to John Pic in an envelope postmarked August 15, 1950, marked Exhibit No. 11-A.

Exhibit No. 12 is a letter from Marguerite to John Pic enclosed in envelope postmarked November 6, 1950, and identified as John Pic Exhibit No. 12-A.

The next is John Pic Exhibit No. 13, a letter from Marguerite Oswald to John Pic enclosed in envelope postmarked December 13, 1950, the envelope being marked John Pic Exhibit No. 13-A. This does have the return address Lee Oswald, 7408 Ewing, Fort Worth, Tex.

The next is a short longhand note on a small sheet marked John Pic Exhibit No. 14 which is undated, Lee Harvey Oswald to John Pic, which was enclosed with Exhibit No. 13.

The next is a card, Christmas card, marked John Pic Exhibit No. 15, inside cover of which in longhand says, "Dear Pic," and then there is in longhand and pencil "I sure am sorry that you can't come home for Christmas so I am sending you this fruitcake. Merry Christmas"—spelled Mary—"from Lee."

The next is John Pic No. 16, a letter from Marguerite Oswald to John Pic enclosed in envelope marked Pic Exhibit No. 16-A and postmarked in Fort Worth, April 16, 1951, with the usual return address.

Exhibit No. 17 is a letter from Marguerite Oswald to John Pic enclosed in envelope postmarked at Fort Worth on April 23, 1951. That envelope is marked John Pic Exhibit No. 17-A. The previous envelope in which Exhibit No. 16 was enclosed was marked Exhibit No. 16-A. I will say for the record in each instance where there is a letter accompanied by an envelope, the envelope is marked with a letter "A" but with the same number as the letter.

Exhibit No. 18 is a letter from Marguerite Oswald to John Pic enclosed in an envelope marked Exhibit No. 18-A, postmarked at Fort Worth, May 22, 1951.

The next is Exhibit No. 19, a letter from Marguerite Oswald to John Pic enclosed in an envelope marked Exhibit No. 19-A, postmarked at Fort Worth on June 18, 1951.

Exhibit No. 20 is a letter from Marguerite Oswald to John Pic and Exhibit No. 20-B is a birthday card from Marguerite. Both are enclosed in an envelope marked John Pic Exhibit No. 20-A, postmarked at Fort Worth, Tex., June 14, 1952, bearing the usual return address.

67 Exhibit No. 21 is a letter from Marguerite Oswald to John Pic enclosed in an envelope marked Pic Exhibit No. 21-A, postmarked Fort Worth, July 14, 1952, with the usual return address.

The next is a letter without an envelope which is marked John Pic Exhibit No. 22. The letter is dated May 10, 1954.

The Exhibit No. 23 is a letter from Marguerite Oswald to John Pic enclosed is an envelope, Exhibit No. 23-A, postmarked in New Orleans on June 14, 1954, containing the return address, M. Oswald, 1454 St. Mary, New Orleans, La.

The next is Exhibit No. 24; it is a letter from Marguerite Oswald to John Pic enclosed in an envelope postmarked at New Orleans, October 14, 1954, which in turn is marked John Pic Exhibit No. 24-A. It contains the return address, M. Oswald, 126 Exchange, New Orleans, La. If I neglected to do so, Exhibit No. 22 is the letter from Marguerite Oswald to John Pic.

Exhibit No. 25 also is a letter from Marguerite Oswald to John Pic enclosed in an envelope marked Exhibit No. 25-A, postmarked at New Orleans, La., on November 12, 1954, containing return address, M. Oswald, 126 Exchange, New Orleans, La.

Exhibit No. 26 is a letter from Marguerite Oswald to John Pic enclosed in an envelope marked Exhibit No. 26-A, postmarked at New Orleans, La., on November 11, 1954, return address, Mrs. M. Oswald, 126 Exchange, New Orleans, La. Mr. Pic, are Exhibits Nos. 6 and 6-A, 7 and 7-A, 8 and 8-A, 9 and 9-A, 10 and 10-A, 11 and 11-A—excuse me, strike out that 10 and 10-A—11 and 11-A, 12 and 12-A, 16 and 16-A, 17 and 17-A, 18 and 18-A, 19 and 19-A, 20 and 20-A, 21 and 21-A, 22, 23 and 23-A, 24 and 24-A, 25 and 25-A, 26 and 26-A, all in the handwriting of your mother Marguerite Oswald?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And were those envelopes addressed to you at various places you were then, that is as of the time they were postmarked received by you at or about the postmarked dates or shortly thereafter which each envelope bears?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. There is one exhibit that doesn't have an envelope. Was that letter received by you shortly after the date it bears?

Mr. Pic. You refer to Exhibit No. 22, sir?

Mr. Jenner. Yes, sir.

Mr. Pic. To the best of my knowledge; yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. These are all, they all consist of correspondence from your mother to you?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And they happen to be correspondence which you have retained over the years?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Except for the exhibit marks on those, they are in the same condition now as they were at the time you received them and opened them in the case of the envelopes?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And that the letters are in the condition they were at the time you read them?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Go back to Pic Exhibit No. 10, in whose handwriting is that exhibit?

Mr. Pic. Exhibit No. 10, sir, is in the handwriting of—there is Exhibits Nos. 10, 10-A, and 10-B.

Mr. Jenner. Exhibit No. 10, I am referring to.

Mr. Pic. They are both in the handwriting of Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. Jenner. Exhibits Nos. 10 and 10-A; correct?

Mr. Pic. No, sir; Exhibits Nos. 10, 10-A, and 10-B. Exhibit No. 10 is the insert in envelope Exhibit No. 10-A.

Mr. Jenner. Then look at Exhibits Nos. 13 and 13-A.

Mr. Pic. They are marked Exhibits Nos. 13 and 13-A, sir.

Mr. Jenner. All right. The contents are marked Exhibit No. 13.

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

68 Mr. Jenner. In whose handwriting is the envelope?

Mr. Pic. Lee Harvey Oswald's.

Mr. Jenner. And whose handwriting is that which appears in the inside of that card?

Mr. Pic. My mother's, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Is there any handwriting of Lee Harvey Oswald on that card?

Mr. Pic. No, sir.

Mr. Jenner. The card was enclosed, was it in the exhibit marked John Pic No. 13-A?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Turn to Exhibit No. 14. That is a note you received from your brother?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Is that in his handwriting?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. It is undated.

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Do you have the envelope in which that was enclosed?

Mr. Pic. Sir, it may be Exhibit No. 13-A, I don't know.

Mr. Jenner. It may have been enclosed in Exhibit No. 13-A?

Mr. Pic. It may have been enclosed in Exhibit No. 10-A, I don't know, sir.

Mr. Jenner. In any event, it is in the handwriting of your brother?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And you received it in due course some time?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. On or about the holiday period——

Mr. Pic. I would guess that Exhibit No. 15 goes in envelope Exhibit No. 13-A.

Mr. Jenner. All right. Would you put them in there?

Mr. Pic. And the date on envelope Exhibit No. 13-A is 13 December, and this is a Christmas card from Lee, sir.

Mr. Jenner. That Christmas card on the inside is the handwriting of your mother, however?

Mr. Pic. No, sir. Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. Jenner. All right. Now, the exhibit marked John Pic No. 14, do you have a recollection as to the envelope in which that was enclosed?

Mr. Pic. No, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Do you have a recollection as to approximately when you received it, that is John Pic Exhibit No. 14?

Mr. Pic. I would speculate and say that Exhibit No. 10 goes in envelope Exhibit No. 10-A, and that Exhibit No. 14 either came some little period of time before or after the contents in envelope Exhibit No. 10-A.

Mr. Jenner. That is while you were away at military school?

Mr. Pic. No, sir; this is when I am in the Coast Guard.

Mr. Jenner. All right. All those exhibits I have now identified, that is after I identified your mother's letters, are in the handwriting of Lee Oswald?

Mr. Pic. All except Exhibit No. 13, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And Exhibit No. 13 is in the handwriting of your mother?

Mr. Pic. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Jenner. It appears to be and is a Christmas card?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. From its contents are you able to tell us approximately when you received that?

Mr. Pic. It would be, I would say sometime after Christmas of 1950, sir.

Mr. Jenner. All right. Would you put all those exhibits back in order?

Mr. Pic. What belongs with what I think.

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mr. Pic. Exhibits Nos. 13-A and 15 here, sir.

Mr. Jenner. You have already told us of Exhibits No. 13-A belonging with Exhibit No. 15. You have also produced for us correspondence that you happen still to have in your possession from your brother Robert Oswald, have you not?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. I place that correspondence before you and ask you to follow me69 as I place the exhibit numbers in the record. Exhibit No. 27 is a letter from Robert to you.

Mr. Pic. They are marked all with "B's."

Mr. Jenner. Exhibit No. 27-B is a letter from your brother Robert to you enclosed in an envelope marked Exhibit No. 27-A, postmarked October 1, 1952?

Mr. Pic. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Jenner. From where?

Mr. Pic. U.S. Navy 14016, sir. Unit 1.

Mr. Jenner. And to you at?

Mr. Pic. At 325 East 92d Street, New York City, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Exhibit No. 28-B is the contents of Exhibit No. 28-A, the contents consisting of a letter from your brother Robert to you, the envelope is postmarked June 9, 1954.

Mr. Pic. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And it is addressed to you where?

Mr. Pic. U.S. Coast Guard Station, Staten Island, N.Y.

Mr. Jenner. All right. Exhibit No. 29-B is the contents of the envelope marked Exhibit No. 29-A, the contents consisting of a letter from your brother Robert to you, and the envelope being postmarked June 19, 1954.

Mr. Pic. Plus a picture.

Mr. Jenner. There is also enclosed in that envelope a picture?

Mr. Pic. That is right, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Which is marked——

Mr. Pic. Exhibit No. 29-C.

Mr. Jenner. Exhibit No. 29-C. The picture is a picture of whom?

Mr. Pic. Two what appear to be Marines, sir; the one on the left being Robert Oswald.

Mr. Jenner. May I see it, please, sir? Do you know the other Marine?

Mr. Pic. No, sir; I do not.

Mr. Jenner. Exhibit No. 30-A is an envelope postmarked December 13, 1954, its contents being a letter marked Exhibit No. 30-B, being a letter from your brother Robert to you.

Mr. Pic. Being a Christmas card, sir; with a letter written on the Christmas card.

Mr. Jenner. On the inside?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And some inscription, also, under the Christmas greetings?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Now, are those exhibits all in the handwriting, except for the photograph, of course, in the handwriting of your brother Robert?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; to my best of my knowledge.

Mr. Jenner. Did you receive those exhibits, the envelopes, and the contents in due course after they were posted?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And you have retained them in your possession since that time?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. All right. Have you also produced for us some additional correspondence between your mother and yourself?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Being exclusively letters from her to you?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. They being in the following series: Exhibit No. 31-A, an envelope addressed to you postmarked June 3, 1950——

Mr. Pic. Fort Worth, Tex.

Mr. Jenner. Fort Worth, Tex. What is the return address?

Mr. Pic. M. Oswald, 7408 Ewing, Fort Worth, Tex.

Mr. Jenner. And the contents consisting of a letter from your mother to you?

Mr. Pic. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And that is marked Exhibit No. 31-B?

Mr. Pic. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. The next envelope and letter, the envelope is marked Exhibit No. 32-A. Is it postmarked?

70 Mr. Pic. Partial postmark, sir.

Mr. Jenner. How much of it can you read?

Mr. Pic. Texas 1950, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Its contents marked?

Mr. Pic. Exhibit No. 32-B, sir.

Mr. Jenner. That is a letter from your mother to you?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Enclosed with the envelope we have identified?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. The next exhibit is what?

Mr. Pic. Exhibit No. 33-A, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Postmarked?

Mr. Pic. Fort Worth, August 23, 1950.

Mr. Jenner. What return address?

Mr. Pic. M. Oswald, 7408 Ewing, Fort Worth, Tex.

Mr. Jenner. The contents have been marked?

Mr. Pic. Exhibit No. 33-B, sir.

Mr. Jenner. The letter from your mother to you?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Enclosed in that envelope?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. The next exhibit?

Mr. Pic. Is just a letter dated Exhibit No. 34.

Mr. Pic. Is just a letter marked Exhibit No. 34.

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Is it dated?

Mr. Pic. The only mention is the word Saturday, sir.

Mr. Jenner. It is undated?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. It is in the handwriting of your mother?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. You received it in due course?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Some time or other?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. But you did not retain the envelope?

Mr. Pic. No, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Can you tell from its content approximately when you received it? Was it after you entered the Coast Guard?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; definitely after I entered the Coast Guard, in fact it mentions the Korean war, so it was after the onset of the Korean war.

Mr. Jenner. Was it received subsequently to the letter and envelope, the envelope being postmarked August 23, 1950, being the previous exhibit?

Mr. Pic. I wouldn't know, sir.

Mr. Jenner. All right. The next exhibit.

Mr. Pic. Envelope Exhibit No. 35-A, sir, postmarked Fort Worth, Tex.; return address, M. Oswald, 7408 Ewing, Fort Worth, Tex.

Mr. Jenner. What is the postmark date?

Mr. Pic. September 22, 1950.

Mr. Jenner. Contents marked?

Mr. Pic. Exhibit No. 35-B, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Being a letter from your mother to you?

Mr. Pic. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Jenner. The next exhibit?

Mr. Pic. Exhibit No. 36-A bearing the postmark 27 September 1950, return address, M. Oswald, 7408 Ewing Street, Fort Worth, Tex.

Mr. Jenner. And postmarked at Fort Worth?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; postmarked at Fort Worth.

Mr. Jenner. Its contents marked—what is the exhibit number on the contents?

Mr. Pic. Exhibit No. 36-B, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Then the next exhibit?

71 Mr. Pic. The next Exhibit No. 37-A, postmarked Fort Worth, Tex., December 28, 1950, no return address.

Mr. Jenner. The contents?

Mr. Pic. Christmas card marked Exhibit No. 37-B with a short note.

Mr. Jenner. In the handwriting of your mother?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. All right. Next exhibit?

Mr. Pic. Envelope Exhibit No. 38-A, postmarked Fort Worth, Tex., January 19, 1951, return address, M. Oswald, 7408 Ewing, Fort Worth, Tex. Contents of envelope marked Exhibit No. 38-B containing a letter from my mother to myself.

Mr. Jenner. All right. Next exhibit?

Mr. Pic. Envelope Exhibit No. 39-A postmarked Fort Worth Tex., April 6, 1951. The only thing made out on the return address is "M.O. 7408 Fort Worth, Texas."

Mr. Jenner. Contents?

Mr. Pic. Contents Exhibit No. 39-B, a letter from my mother to myself, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Next exhibit?

Mr. Pic. Envelope marked Exhibit No. 40-A, postmarked Fort Worth, Tex., May 2, 1951, return address, M. Oswald, 7408 Ewing, contents Exhibit No. 40-B letter from my mother to myself, sir.

Mr. Jenner. The next exhibit?

Mr. Pic. Envelope marked Exhibit No. 41-A postmarked Fort Worth, Tex., 7 May 1951, return address 7408, Mrs. M. Oswald, 7408 Ewing, Fort Worth, Tex., contents letter marked Exhibit No. 41-B, a letter from my mother to myself, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Next exhibit?

Mr. Pic. A letter, envelope marked Exhibit No. 42-A postmarked Fort Worth, Tex., June 4, 1951, return address M. Oswald 7408 Ewing, Fort Worth, Tex., contents marked Exhibit No. 42-B, letter from my mother to myself, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Next exhibit?

Mr. Pic. Envelope marked Exhibit No. 43-A, postmarked Fort Worth, Tex., June 13, 1951, return address M. Oswald 7408 Ewing, Fort Worth, Tex., contents marked Exhibit No. 43-B, a letter from my mother to myself, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Next exhibit?

Mr. Pic. Envelope marked Exhibit No. 44-A postmarked Fort Worth, Tex., July 13, 1951, return address M. Oswald, 7408 Ewing, Fort Worth, Tex., contents marked Exhibit No. 44-B, a letter from my mother to myself, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Next exhibit?

Mr. Pic. An envelope marked Exhibit No. 45-A, postmarked Fort Worth, Tex., February 8, 1952, return address M. Oswald 7408 Ewing, Fort Worth, Tex. Contents Exhibit No. 45-B, a letter from my mother to myself, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Next exhibit?

Mr. Pic. Envelope marked Exhibit No. 46-A, postmarked Fort Worth, Tex., May 8, 1952, M. Oswald, 7408 Ewing, Fort Worth, Tex., contents marked Exhibit No. 46-B, letter from my mother to myself.

Mr. Jenner. The last of the series?

Mr. Pic. An envelope marked Exhibit No. 47-A, postmarked Fort Worth, Tex., dated 5th of March 1952, return address M. Oswald 7408 Ewing, Fort Worth, Tex. Contents marked Exhibit No. 47-A also. The letter from my mother to myself.

Mr. Jenner. OK, that is a mistake then. We will change that marking to Exhibit No. 47-B, which I am now doing.

The letters that have been identified with Exhibit No. 31-A and concluding with Exhibit No. 47-B, are all in the handwriting of your mother, are they not?

Mr. Pic. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And it is correspondence which you received in due course on or about the dates or shortly after the dates that the various envelopes were postmarked?

Mr. Pic. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And you have retained them in your possession in the entire time?

Mr. Pic. That is correct, sir.

72 Mr. Jenner. There is an exhibit still before you marked John Pic Exhibit No.——

Mr. Pic. Exhibit No. 59.

Mr. Jenner. What is that?

Mr. Pic. This appears to be a "shot" record of Lee Harvey Oswald written in an unknown hand, which gives him a smallpox date of August 7, 1951.

Mr. Jenner. How did that come into your possession?

Mr. Pic. It was just laying in the box with all this other stuff, sir.

Mr. Jenner. I offer those exhibits now commencing with Exhibit No. 31-A to and including Exhibits Nos. 47-B, plus 59, in evidence.

(The documents referred to were marked John Pic Exhibits Nos. 31-A to 47-B, inclusive, and Exhibit No. 59 for identification and received in evidence.)

Mr. Jenner. Mr. Pic, we have made copies of all those exhibits and we appreciate your bringing the originals, and you may take the originals back with you to San Antonio. Those exhibits consisting of the photographs of your brother which you brought, we will have duplicated and returned to you in due course.

Mr. Pic. All right.

Mr. Jenner. Direct your attention, if you will, to Exhibit No. 9-A, an envelope and its contents, Exhibit No. 9, this being a letter from Fort Worth, June 9, 1950, to you at Brooklyn, N.Y.

There is an inside page reading, "Mother called in on and told some of my problems." Do you find that?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Uncle Dutz wired $75. That is your uncle Charles Murret?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And then it reads, "And Lee was invited to spend a couple of weeks, so I sent him on the train by himself. To what is your mother referring in connection with her problems and the wiring of the $75 by your uncle?

Mr. Pic. It appears to me, sir, that at this time period she was between jobs. Further down she states she is starting on a new job Monday.

Mr. Jenner. Does she refer to that job on the page that is numbered 3, I believe, as McDonald Kitchens is the name?

Mr. Pic. She first refers to it on the one where it begins, "Mother called in on".

Mr. Jenner. Now, the mother there mentioned is your mother, isn't it?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Then there is a page numbered 3?

Mr. Pic. That is right, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Which referred to McDonald's Kitchens as the name and what they do is cook food for commercial use?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. "I will drive a station wagon and deliver the food, also."

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Is that a job she was about to obtain?

Mr. Pic. I can only assume from the letter, sir; I have no other knowledge of that.

Mr. Jenner. She makes a reference on that page "Haven't sold the house as yet but have a good prospect." Calling your attention to the date, June 9, 1950, what house was that?

Mr. Pic. I am sure this refers to the little house in Benbrook, sir.

Mr. Jenner. It refers to people called DeLogans. Who are they?

Mr. Pic. I assume these people were renting the house from her, I don't remember them.

Mr. Jenner. That was a duplex of some kind?

Mr. Pic. No, sir; that was this little L-shaped house.

Mr. Jenner. In all this correspondence, Sergeant, by and large your mother very frequently, if not all the time, refers to her straitened circumstances, need for funds, and references to you having sent money. In your testimony you have referred to conversations with her on the subject and she raised the subject to you. Was that something that was pretty constantly in her mind all the time?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; it was.

Mr. Jenner. Did she talk about that subject at times when you were of the73 opinion that she was not as straitened as she appears to report in these letters?

Mr. Pic. Will you repeat that, please, sir?

Mr. Jenner. Would you read it, please, Mr. Reporter.

(The question, as recorded, was read by the reporter.)

Mr. Pic. I am sorry, sir; I don't understand your question.

Mr. Jenner. Were you of the opinion from time to time that on these occasions when she talked about what appears to be that she was in extremis with respect to finances when in fact she was not, she was overstating this condition or status?

Mr. Pic. Yes; I believe she overstated it most of the time.

Mr. Jenner. Because there were purchases of houses, at least on the installment plan, and she seemed to have capital to do that, did she not?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; she could always buy and sell a house some way or other.

Mr. Jenner. What was your impression as to why she was doing this; to impress you boys or was that just her fixation or personality trait?

Mr. Pic. It is my impression that she did it in order to make a profit on every deal she got involved with.

Mr. Jenner. I am not thinking of a house sale as such. But that question was more directed to her talking about her financial circumstances.

Was she attempting to impress you boys that she was working herself to the bone to support you and you should be more grateful than you appeared to be, and that sort of thing?

Mr. Pic. That is practically verbatim, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Please; you say that is practically verbatim, you mean you have uttered what was in her mind?

Mr. Pic. No; just about what she says. She said at those times.

Mr. Jenner. Were you under the impression that she was overstating in that respect?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Was that likewise the feeling of your brother Robert?

Mr. Pic. Yes, I am sure it was.

Mr. Jenner. What was your impression as to whether your mother was always sincere and straightforward with respect to that subject matter?

Mr. Pic. My opinion, sir; at the time was all she cared about was getting hold of and making some money in some form or another. This is her god, so to speak, was to get money. And to get as much out of me as she could and as much out of Robert as she could.

Mr. Jenner. And as much out of anybody else as she could?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Was there any—you talk about the difficulties with Mr. Ekdahl. Do you recall any discussions between them with respect to any dissatisfaction on your mother's part with funds that were given her by Mr. Ekdahl?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; she always wanted more money out of him. That was the basis of all the arguments.

Mr. Jenner. And was she complaining to him that he didn't give her enough money?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Was your mother an extravagant person money-wise?

Mr. Pic. I don't know what she did with the money, sir. She bought very little as far as clothes and things. We didn't eat steak every day. We didn't eat that good. In fact, when I joined the service in 1950, I was 118 pounds, and my weight prior to that was usually about 130, 140. I think within a month or two after I joined the service I was up to 145 and none of my uniforms fit me. I was—there is a picture of me in the Pasqual High School thing, and I am very thin. People couldn't recognize me from that picture. I lost a lot of weight working, and not eating too good. I would come home and have to fix my own meals.

Mr. Jenner. Was your mother attentive in that respect? Did she go out of her way to have meals ready for you boys when you returned to home either after work or after school or otherwise?

Mr. Pic. If there was a majority eating there was usually something set aside for the lesser, which was kept warm in the oven.

74 Mr. Jenner. You mean the member of the family who was absent at mealtime she would save something for him?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Did you get the feeling, you and your brother, in due course, that your mother's references to these financial needs at times, at least when, to use the vernacular, she was crying wolf?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. These continued references by her to her financial needs, did you think that had an effect on Lee as well as on yourself and your brother?

Mr. Pic. It didn't affect me that much. I ignored most of them. If I had money I sent it. If I didn't, that was it. Lee was brought up in this atmosphere of constant money problems, and I am sure it had quite an effect on him, and also Robert.

Mr. Jenner. In her letter enclosed in the envelope postmarked June 18, 1951——

Mr. Pic. What number is that, sir?

Mr. Jenner. That is Exhibits Nos. 19 and 19-A—she makes reference that Robert has been saving his money since January to buy a car and "gives me $15 a week and never spends a cent unless absolutely necessary (is he tight) but he has saved $210 since the first of the year and is hiding"——

Mr. Pic. Hitting.

Mr. Jenner. "For $400" and so on.

Mr. Pic. Before buying a car.

Mr. Jenner. "Won't loan me a penny, pays his room and board regularly. He gets 2 weeks vacation with pay, I believe, will start in July."

Do you remember your mother attempting to borrow money from you?

Mr. Pic. When I went home on leave in 1950 with a hundred or so dollars, like I mentioned before, she wanted to hold it, just about the whole amount except for about $10 from me, so nothing would happen to it, and I might get robbed or something, she felt. Whenever she could she attempted to get a buck out of any of us.

Mr. Jenner. Did you get any of that money back?

Mr. Pic. I got it all back and subsequently when I left I gave her, I think $50 or so.

Mr. Jenner. In that same letter she refers to, she said, "I only made $92 last month and am just starting to get leads. I am back with the same company."

To what company is she referring in that letter which is postmarked June 18, 1951?

Mr. Pic. I don't know, sir. It sounds to me like it would be an insurance company.

Mr. Jenner. Do you recall your mother selling insurance?

Mr. Pic. Yes; I knew approximately at this time period she sold insurance.

Mr. Jenner. There is a reference to Lee taking tap dancing lessons, also, in that letter, that he is a good dancer, "with his voice it would be a good thing to start dancing lessons and when he is a little older take voice."

Mr. Pic. I think this statement here about this practically like several other statements which are either direct or indirect were an attempt to get me to donate some money to this cause or something else. Of course this, to me, is a come-on for maybe next time I write I will say, "Hurrah, hurrah, Lee is going to take tap dancing lessons" and then she will write and say she can't afford it and to send a little money to help him. She did these things. In fact, in some of her letters she refers to it is my fault they are in trouble because I stated I would help pay for the car and since I was in the service I wasn't holding up my end of the bargain.

Mr. Jenner. What about that incident?

Mr. Pic. Sir, that is in the second group of letters.

Mr. Jenner. What about this particular incident you mentioned? What are the facts about that?

Mr. Pic. Just what it states here. This is all I know, sir. What it states in this letter.

Mr. Jenner. About the dancing and voice?

75 Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Did you ever hear of Lee, other than this letter of Lee taking dancing lessons?

Mr. Pic. No, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Did you ever hear otherwise of his taking dancing lessons than in this letter?

Mr. Pic. No, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Did either you or Robert ever take dancing lessons or voice lessons?

Mr. Pic. I think when we were very small and Mr. Oswald was still alive we did, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Now, the other thing to which I referred, as you made reference to something about making payments on a car. What was that about?

Mr. Pic. That would be in that second group, sir. In the second group is really the financial statements. Every one of them contained something pertaining to her finances.

Mr. Jenner. The early enlistments of yourself and Robert and Lee—do you think that had anything to do with your mother's persistent references, allusions to finances?

Mr. Pic. I did not enlist as fast as the other boys. I waited a year after I was of age. I am sure that prior to my enlistment, as a matter of fact, I knew she mentioned when I do get in I should make out an allotment to her and so forth.

Mr. Jenner. Do you think there was an incentive on the part of Lee and Robert to enlist as soon as possible to get away from your mother?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; I do.

Mr. Jenner. Did you and your brother Robert have discussions on this subject?

Mr. Pic. No, sir; we never discussed these things. It was just a feeling it was always around. We knew these things without discussing them.

Mr. Jenner. Did you live in an atmosphere in which your mother directly or indirectly indicated to you that she thought she had been unfairly dealt with in her life?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. You had that very definite impression?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. You had——

Mr. Pic. I did not have this impression. She related this to me, sir. I didn't feel she had it any tougher than a lot of people walking around.

Mr. Jenner. That is what I am getting at, this was an impression she was seeking to create.

Mr. Pic. That is right, sir.

Mr. Jenner. You felt she did not have it any tougher. She was creating an impression that did not square with the facts?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir. Every time she met anyone she would remind them she was a widow with three children.

Mr. Jenner. Do you have an opinion also as to whether this atmosphere in which Lee lived had an effect upon him and his personality?

Mr. Pic. I am sure it did, sir. Also, Lee slept with my mother until I joined the service in 1950. This would make him approximately 10, well, almost 11 years old.

Mr. Jenner. When you say slept with, you mean in the same bed?

Mr. Pic. In the same bed, sir.

Mr. Jenner. As far as you know or say when Lee came and stayed with you a short while in 1952 did he likewise sleep with your mother?

Mr. Pic. No, sir; he did not.

Mr. Jenner. He had reached a measure of independence by that time?

Mr. Pic. Well, sir; when I left and went into the service there was a vacant bed in the house.

Mr. Jenner. And at that time was that literally the first time that Lee had separate quarters for himself other than the period of time that Mr. Ekdahl lived with you and the period of time when your stepfather Lee Oswald was alive?

76 Mr. Pic. Lee wasn't born when Lee Oswald was alive, sir.

Mr. Jenner. That is right. Well, then, except for the time Mr. Ekdahl lived with you?

Mr. Pic. That is true, sir. That would make him about 10 years old.

Mr. Jenner. Up to the time he was 10 years old, why he roomed and slept with his mother in the same bed?

Mr. Pic. I would like to interject here.

Mr. Jenner. Yes, I am seeking something of the personality of your mother and the effect on you, had an effect on Robert, and probably a more material effect on Lee, is that correct?

Mr. Pic. Yes; I am sure it did. When I reached 17, I was eligible for the service, but I was really in no hurry, I wanted to finish my high school education, and when I decided to join the Coast Guard—at that time to join the Coast Guard you needed your parent's consent up until the age of 21. I asked her for it and she hesitated and I told her if she didn't give it to me I would join another branch where I didn't need it and then I got it. I am sure that neither Robert nor Lee needed their mother's consent to join the Marine Corps at the age of 17. I know for the Coast Guard we did, sir, the Coast Guard was not a part of the Department of Defense at that time.

Mr. Jenner. Directing your attention to Exhibits Nos. 21 and 21-A, the second page of that letter, Exhibit No. 21, reads, "Robert left Friday morning for San Diego. He joined the Marines and signed for 4 years. I am glad he decided to enlist. He realized his mistake about getting married, and"—would you read the rest of it?

Mr. Pic. "And probably having to go just the same."

Mr. Jenner. "And then probably having to go just the same." Is that the incident in which your mother opposed your brother Robert's marriage to the little crippled girl?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Turn to Exhibit No. 24. There is a reference there to a lady, Ethel somebody at Holmes. Would you read that?

Mr. Pic. "Ethel Nunncy at Holmes asks about you."

Mr. Jenner. And that is—Holmes is a department store?

Mr. Pic. In New Orleans.

Mr. Jenner. Who was Ethel Nunncy?

Mr. Pic. She was a friend of my mother's, sir, that I had known of since I was a small—I was a baby.

Mr. Jenner. Sir, this Exchange Alley—did they have to live under these conditions?

Mr. Pic. All I know is that they lived there. She thought they did.

Mr. Jenner. Exhibit No. 31-B which is a letter from your mother to you postmarked at Fort Worth, June 3, 1950, reading "Dear John, your sense of responsibility seems nil" or null.

Mr. Pic. Nil, null.

Mr. Jenner. N-u-l-l. "Remember it was you insisted I buy the car as you planned to work at Consolidated. Well I have been in a jam financially ever since you left." What is the next word?

Mr. Pic. "Kept waiting and robbing Peter to pay Paul."

Mr. Jenner. "Until you were"——

Mr. Pic. Kept waiting and robbing Peter to pay Paul until you were finished with your boot training as your letters indicated you would send a hundred fifty dollars and about fifty dollars a month."

Mr. Jenner. Had you so indicated?

Mr. Pic. I don't believe so, sir. I don't see how, I wasn't making but $80 per month.

Mr. Jenner. What truth was there in her statement that it was you who insisted that she buy the car?

Mr. Pic. Well, that old jalopy I have a picture of was falling apart and before I went in the service she had a ride home from work and the generator wouldn't generate, and the battery wouldn't battery and it just kept cutting out, so we needed a new car.

Mr. Jenner. Was that particular car about which you have just described—77about which you were having trouble—was that the family car or a car owned by you?

Mr. Pic. A family car, I never owned a car, sir, when I lived at home.

Mr. Jenner. I take it you had urged her to buy a new car to replace that one?

Mr. Pic. We all wanted a new car, sir, because the other one wouldn't run. She had to get it pushed every morning to get to work. She would have us out in the street waving down people to help her get the car pushed.

Further on, sir, "I wrote you and told you about a girl loaning me $50 on my ring. I lost the ring and wasn't able to pay it." Sir, I wouldn't believe that. I am sure at that time I didn't. And the way she goes on the next page, "Cox found out about me borrowing" and let her go. I don't believe this.

Mr. Jenner. The next letter, Exhibit No. 32-B, and in an envelope marked in 1950, it says "Dear John, Well, I have the house in Benbrook up for sale." Could you read the name?

Mr. Pic. It appears to me to be J. Piner Powell Real Estate is handling it. Do you want me to read on?

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mr. Pic. "The problem is to find someone with enough cash as a loan company won't make a new loan and I have about $2,600 in it. Nothing but bad news. Up to date I am still not working." Read on, sir?

Mr. Jenner. That is about enough. Did your mother write you a letter that had good news in it?

Mr. Pic. I never recall one, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Around your home was the atmosphere that, "We are poor but we will get along?" as your mother sought to lead you boys to accommodate yourselves to the circumstances that everything would turn out all right eventually?

Mr. Pic. None of us really paid much attention to this, sir. I didn't, and I am sure Robert didn't. I don't think Lee did because Robert and I would probably talk and we didn't pay much attention to it.

Mr. Jenner. You heard it so often you just became inured to it, hardened to it; is that it?

Mr. Pic. Well, we didn't believe it after the problems she put on. Just like when my wife and I got married she sent a package containing Revere Ware which I haven't received yet and she swears up and down she sent it, and she has never gotten it in the return mail either. And I know she never sent anything. When we would be home alone, before she would return from work, we have a rather friendly atmosphere, but as soon as she came home we all got into that depression rut again.

Mr. Jenner. Was your——

Mr. Pic. This is prior to my going in the service, sir.

Mr. Jenner. There were times that the atmosphere around your home was depressing?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And was that due largely to your mother?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. The things she said and the attitudes she assumed?

Mr. Pic. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And while you and your brother got along well you boys were not getting along well with your mother in that sense?

Mr. Pic. Robert and I and Lee, we had our fights among us, like all brothers do. But we could handle ourselves and our own problems, but the atmosphere just changed when she was around.

Mr. Jenner. Did your mother ever say anything about whether people liked her or disliked her?

Mr. Pic. She didn't have to. She didn't have many friends and usually the new friends she made she didn't keep very long.

Mr. Jenner. That was her history?

Mr. Pic. I remember every time we moved she always had fights with the neighbors or something or another.

Mr. Jenner. Was she a person who was resentful of the status of others?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

78 Mr. Jenner. And you boys were aware of that, were you?

Mr. Pic. I was aware of it. She always—I remember once when we lived on Eighth Avenue, I believe was the place, the people named McLean living next to us, of course he was an attorney and everything, and they had some money, and my mother——

Mr. Jenner. What town was this?

Mr. Pic. This was Fort Worth, sir. My mother remarked to me once that Mrs. McLean had said she went and played the slot machines and lost $100 in it, and she raved and ranted about this for half an hour or an hour about how this woman could go and waste $100 and what she could do with it and everything. She resented the fact this woman lost her own money.

Mr. Jenner. I haven't found a single letter yet, Sergeant, in which your mother fails to mention the subject of money.

Mr. Pic. You may find a Christmas card, "Love, Mother," sir.

Mr. Jenner. A letter?

Mr. Pic. No, sir; I don't think you will. These are only part of them. I threw out a whole bunch a couple of years ago. They were all basically the same.

Mr. Jenner. Was your mother loving and affectionate toward you boys?

Mr. Pic. I would say for myself, sir, I wasn't to her.

Mr. Jenner. What is that?

Mr. Pic. I was not toward her.

Mr. Jenner. Why?

Mr. Pic. I had no motherly love feeling toward her. Like I say, I think I first became resentful to her when she informed me I would not return to the military school and from then my hostilities toward her grew.

Mr. Jenner. Well, up to that point, what had been your feeling toward your mother?

Mr. Pic. We had never been in a very affectionate family, sir.

Mr. Jenner. That is affectionate with respect to the boys toward your mother?

Mr. Pic. That is right, sir; kissing her, and things like this. It is my own opinion that she is out right now to make as much money as she can on her relationship with Lee Harvey Oswald. That is the only thing—I don't really believe she really believes he is innocent. I think she is out to make money than if she has to say he is guilty. I think she is a phony in the whole deal.

Also, I think you will find with myself, Robert and Lee, also, that we didn't have these or don't have these feelings towards money that she does. I mean I live on my base pay and I have for years, and Robert makes the best what he can, and whenever we get together, we never discuss money. The only time I seen Lee as an adult he didn't discuss it, not to the extent that we were used to, we never felt this way.

Mr. Jenner. It is your information, is it, that your mother's first marriage was to your father?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Her second, then, to Robert Lee Edward Oswald?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And her third to E. A. Ekdahl?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. So far as you know she has not been married otherwise than those three occasions?

Mr. Pic. No, sir; Has she?

Mr. Jenner. We don't know, if she has we don't know anything about it.

Did your brother Lee on the occasion on Thanksgiving Day 1962 say anything about whether he had had a hard time in Russia?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. That is a hard time in the sense of earning a living?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Or some other sense?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; earning a living.

Mr. Jenner. What do you recall he said in that connection?

Mr. Pic. That he made about $80 a month, and it wasn't the money so much. It was the products were not available to him and also his wife to get even with the money, and they consistently ate cabbage and he was tired of cabbage,79 and he struck me he was not complaining about the money but the availability of food.

Mr. Jenner. Is it your impression that he had become disenchanted with Russia?

Mr. Pic. Yes; I got this impression.

Mr. Jenner. Did you ever hear him say anything while you were boys in which he expressed dissatisfaction with the United States or its Government?

Mr. Pic. No, sir.

Mr. Jenner. He made no comment on that subject when you saw him on Thanksgiving Day 1962?

Mr. Pic. I think his only bitter feelings that I recollect was his dishonorable discharge from the Marine Corps. This was the only bitter feelings he reported to me in anyway.

Mr. Jenner. I would like to have you tell us what he said as—did he return to that subject repeatedly? What leads you now to conclude or state by way of conclusion that he was bitter about that?

Mr. Pic. I think the idea of driving came up, the talk about automobiles. I also think that he made the statement——

Mr. Jenner. When you say that is your present recollection?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. All right.

Mr. Pic. I also think that he made the statement that he——

Mr. Jenner. Here, again, you mean to the best of your recollection?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; to the best of my knowledge, that he made the statement he wasn't driving because of this dishonorable discharge he received. He was unable to obtain a driver's license. Then he told me he was attempting to get this changed, and he had written several letters to the Secretary of the Navy about getting it changed.

Mr. Jenner. Did he mention the then Governor Connally in that connection?

Mr. Pic. I believe he did, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Governor Connally was not then Secretary of the Navy. Did he express any resentment toward Governor Connally?

Mr. Pic. I think when he explained it to me——

Mr. Jenner. Please, you have said again "I think."

Mr. Pic. To the best of my recollection, sir, when he mentioned to me that he had written to get it changed, Governor Connally was the Secretary of the Navy. He did mention the name Connally.

Mr. Jenner. Did you have any feeling or get the impression that he was bitter toward Governor Connally as a person? He was not, then, of course——

Mr. Pic. No, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Secretary of the Navy.

Mr. Pic. No, sir; just the fact that the man had the job and he was the man he had written it to.

Mr. Jenner. Was anything said about Fair Play for Cuba Committee on this occasion?

Mr. Pic. There was no discussion about Cuba. I think this was right after the Cuban crisis, and I think we may have talked about the mobilization a little bit.

Mr. Jenner. Did he express any views on that subject?

Mr. Pic. No, sir; he didn't.

Mr. Jenner. Was President Kennedy discussed at anytime?

Mr. Pic. I don't recollect, sir.

He struck me on that meeting as really only having two purposes: One, to straighten out the dishonorable discharge and the other one to pay back the Government the money it had lent him to come back to the United States.

Mr. Jenner. You were interested—Charlie Murret was a dentist and a graduate of Louisiana State University. Joyce Murret married an athletic coach and lives in Beaumont, Tex.?

Mr. Pic. Right.

Mr. Jenner. Gene Murret you have mentioned. He is a seminarian at Mobile, Ala. Boogie Murret works for Squibb & Co. He is a graduate of Loyola of New Orleans.

80 Mr. Pic. Someone mentioned, I don't know if it was Vada or my brother, Robert——

Mr. Jenner. On this Thanksgiving Day occasion?

Mr. Pic. Yes; after they had left, that Marina's uncle, brother, some relation, was an officer in the Russian Army. She had stated she had a relative in the Soviet armed forces.

Mr. Jenner. It was your impression that either Vada had or Robert had?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Some of the witnesses have testified that Lee was quick to anger as a boy. Do you remember anything about that? What is your impression about that?

Mr. Pic. I don't remember, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Was he a considerate young man?

Mr. Pic. I think towards Robert and myself he was, sir. Towards other people, no.

Mr. Jenner. Was his attitude towards other people different from that which he had toward you and Robert?

Mr. Pic. Yes; I believe so.

Mr. Jenner. In what respect—what did you notice about him in that regard?

Mr. Pic. He would rather play with us than play with other children, and he always wanted to go with us wherever we went. Whenever we had a birthday or Christmas he would never forget us. I think he was very considerate towards Robert and myself.

Mr. Jenner. From time to time we have been off the record and had some discussions in discussing documents and other things. Do you recall anything we discussed off the record that you think is pertinent here that I have failed to place on the record?

Mr. Pic. I don't remember what has been off the record, sir.

Mr. Jenner. I will put it this way then: Is there anything you would like to add at the moment now that I am about to finish questioning you that you think you would like to have on the record?

Mr. Pic. If you are interested in my opinions——

Mr. Jenner. Yes, sir; anything that you want to add.

Mr. Pic. I think, I believe that Lee Oswald did the crime that he is accused of. I think that anything he may have done was aided with a little extra push from his mother in the living conditions that she presented to him. I also think that his reason for leaving the Marine Corps is not true and accurate. I mean I don't think he cared to get out of the Marine Corps to help his mother. He probably used this as an excuse to get out and go to his defection.

I know myself I wouldn't have gotten out of the service because of her, and I am sure Robert wouldn't either, and this makes me believe that Lee wouldn't have.

Mr. Jenner. What kind of a student was your brother, do you know, do you recall, rather?

Mr. Pic. I think in elementary school he was fairly good, sir.

Mr. Jenner. But then in the later grades, 7th, 8th, 9th, 10th, and 11th?

Mr. Pic. I have no idea, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Well, that is about all. I sure appreciate your coming, and the Commission likewise, at some inconvenience to yourself. You will be able to catch that 9:50 plane in the morning and get yourself back to your son's birthday party.

Mr. Pic. I hope what I have told you has been something new and not repetitious.

Mr. Jenner. Much of what you have told us has been new. Much of what you have told us has been very helpful to us in the way of corroborating matters about which we were not fully informed or in doubt, and opinions have been expressed particularly with respect to your brother have been helpful.

That leads me to ask you this further question: Give me your overall impression of your brother Lee Oswald as a personality, as he developed.

Mr. Pic. Sir; I remember Lee Oswald as a child, up until about the age of 11 or 12. To me, he appeared a normal healthy robust boy who would get in fights and still have his serious moments.

81 Mr. Jenner. You got in fights, too, didn't you?

Mr. Pic. Sure.

Mr. Jenner. And your brother Robert?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. These are not fights that you would regard as other than boys getting into?

Mr. Pic. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Jenner. That is, it wasn't because he was unduly belligerent?

Mr. Pic. No, sir.

Mr. Jenner. All right. Go ahead.

Mr. Pic. He got in his usual trouble around the neighborhood as far as getting in people's yards, probably, and letting the dog go astray, normal healthy boy.

I think as he became older, prior to me entering the service, he became slightly cocky and belligerent toward his mother. He never showed any of this toward Robert or myself. I am afraid it probably rubbed off of Robert and myself and it affected Lee, because we didn't really take much stock into what she was saying. I don't think we were as cocky, as belligerent as he was. There was——

Mr. Jenner. Do you think that was a defensive mechanism, on his part?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; I think so.

Mr. Jenner. Did your mother ever say anything around your home about that employers were overreaching her, and employers overreached poor working people or anything along those lines?

Mr. Pic. No; she always reminded us she worked like a slave to provide for us three boys. She couldn't wait for a day we would grow up and support her.

When Lee visited us in New York he came there a friendly, nice easy-to-like kid.

Mr. Jenner. This is 1952 in the summer?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; he had the interest of boys at that age, the Museum of Natural History, sightseeing excursions and so forth. Until the incident where I talked to him we never had a bad word between us other than maybe joking or playing around. I tried to interest him in a hobby of building boats or collecting stamps again while he was——

Mr. Jenner. Had he been interested in those two hobbies?

Mr. Pic. Yes; he and I, all three of us collected stamps. I played chess with Lee quite a bit and Robert, too. We all did this. Played monopoly together, the three of us.

When I approached him on this knife-pulling incident he became very hostile towards me. And he was never the same again with me.

Mr. Jenner. That was the first time he had ever been hostile in that sense towards you?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And that rupture was never repaired thereafter?

Mr. Pic. No, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Did you have the impression when you saw him on Thanksgiving of 1962 that in the meantime he had become embittered, resentful of his station?

Mr. Pic. Well, sir; the Lee Harvey Oswald I met in November of 1962 was not the Lee Harvey Oswald I had known 10 years previous. This person struck me as someone with a chip on his shoulder, who had these purposes I mentioned, to do something about.

Mr. Jenner. What purposes?

Mr. Pic. To repay the Government and get his discharge changed.

It appeared to me that he was a good father towards his child, and not knowing the conversation between he and his wife I couldn't form much of an opinion there.

Mr. Jenner. All right, sir; that is about it.

Mr. Pic. OK, sir; thank you very much.

Mr. Jenner. This transcript will be prepared by the reporters and it will be sent to your commanding officer, and would you please get it immediately and read it and sign it.

If you make any corrections in it, put your initials beside the correction,82 or over, above, your initial somewhere around the correction so we know it is you who did it, and return it to us as promptly as possible.

It may be that the Secret Service will bring it out, but it will be delivered to you next week.

All right.


AFFIDAVIT OF EDWARD JOHN PIC, JR.

The following affidavit was executed by Edward John Pic, Jr., on June 16, 1964.

AFFIDAVIT

PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION
ON THE ASSASSINATION OF
PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY

State of Louisiana,
Parish of Orleans, ss:

Edward John Pic, Jr., 6 Jay Street, New Orleans, La., being duly sworn says:

1. I am the same Edward John Pic, Jr., who was deposed by Albert E. Jenner, Jr., member of the legal staff of the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy, on April 7, 1964. When Marguerite Claverie Pic and I separated after we had lived together a year, we resided in a house on Genois Street, south of Canal Street, in New Orleans. This was a rented house. The rent was either $28 or $30 per month. At no time prior to our separation did Marguerite work. During all of that period she was a housewife.

2. I neither refused nor failed to support her either during or after our marriage. There were personality and incompatibility difficulties between us commencing at an early stage of our marriage. We just couldn't get along, things kept getting worse and worse. Marguerite was aware of my earning capacity at the time we married. There were difficulties between us respecting money and household financial management, but this was only one of the sources of the difficulties. My financial situation did not worsen after our marriage.

3. Marguerite's pregnancy with my son John Edward Pic was not the cause of our separation. I had no objection to children. It was a coincidence that about that time we had reached the point that we could not make a go with each other any more. Our separation which was amicable and which was arranged through an attorney would have taken place irrespective of Marguerite's pregnancy with my son John Edward Pic.

4. As I testified in my deposition, Marguerite was a nice girl. I haven't anything whatsoever adverse to say against her, it is just that we couldn't get along. Our dispositions would not jell. I do not mean to imply that the fault, if any, lay with either of us. We just didn't get along.

5. My distinct recollection is that I had no difficulty maintaining the household and supporting my family though there was some difference between Marguerite and me as to the manner, style and the level on which our household should be maintained.

Signed the 16th day of June 1964.

(S)Edward John Pic, Jr.,
Edward John Pic, Jr.

TESTIMONY OF KERRY WENDELL THORNLEY

The testimony of Kerry Wendell Thornley was taken at 9:40 a.m., on May 18, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Messrs. John Ely and Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. Jenner. Mr. Thornley, in the deposition you are about to give, do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?

Mr. Thornley. I do.

Mr. Jenner. You are Kerry Wendell Thornley, spelled K-e-r-r-y W-e-n-d-e-l-l T-h-o-r-n-l-e-y?

83 Mr. Thornley. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Mr. Thornley, where do you reside now?

Mr. Thornley. At 4201 South 31st Street in Arlington, Va.

Mr. Jenner. Did you at one time reside at 1824 Dauphine Street in New Orleans?

Mr. Thornley. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. What is your present occupation?

Mr. Thornley. I am a doorman at the building where I reside, Shirlington House.

Mr. Jenner. Doorman.

Mr. Thornley. At the building where I reside.

Mr. Jenner. What is the name of that building?

Mr. Thornley. Shirlington House. I also work on the switchboard there three nights a week.

Mr. Jenner. I see. By the way, Mr. Thornley, you received, did you not, a letter from Mr. Rankin, the general counsel of the Commission in which he enclosed——

Mr. Thornley. Confirming this appointment——

Mr. Jenner. Copies of the legislation, Senate Joint Resolution No. 137, authorizing the creation of the Commission and President Johnson's Order 11130, bringing the Commission into existence and fixing its powers and duties and responsibilities?

Mr. Thornley. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And also a copy of the rules and regulations of the Commission for the taking of depositions?

Mr. Thornley. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. I take it you understand the basic obligation placed upon the Commission is to investigate the facts and circumstances surrounding and bearing upon the assassination of President Kennedy, and events collateral thereto.

In the course of doing that the Commission and its staff, and I, Albert E. Jenner, Jr., a member of the Commission legal staff, have been interviewing and taking the testimony of various persons who, among other things, came in contact with a man named Lee Harvey Oswald. We understand that you had some contact with him, fortuitous or otherwise as it might be. Are we correct in that?

Mr. Thornley. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Would you tell us the—may I ask you this first. Were you born and reared in this country?

Mr. Thornley. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Are you married or unmarried?

Mr. Thornley. Unmarried.

Mr. Jenner. Unmarried you said?

Mr. Thornley. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. What is your age?

Mr. Thornley. I am 26.

Mr. Jenner. When was your birthday?

Mr. Thornley. April 17, this last month.

Mr. Jenner. April 17 of this last month? I am poor in mathematics, what year was your birth?

Mr. Thornley. 1938.

Mr. Jenner. When did you first become acquainted with him?

Mr. Thornley. I was—it was around Easter of 1959, either shortly before or shortly after.

Mr. Jenner. Let's see. He was in the Marines at that time?

Mr. Thornley. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. I take it you also were?

Mr. Thornley. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. How long had you been in the Marines?

Mr. Thornley. At that time I had been in the Marines over half a year. I had been in the Reserve for many years. I had been on active duty for over half a year.

84 Mr. Jenner. You were then 21 years of age?

Mr. Thornley. About; yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Tell me about what your occupation and activity had been up to the time you enlisted in the Marines.

Mr. Thornley. Well, the year before I was a student at the University of Southern California, and before that I was a student at California High School in Whittier, Calif.

Mr. Jenner. I take it then that you are a native Californian?

Mr. Thornley. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Did you receive your degree?

Mr. Thornley. No. I was—I completed my freshman year and then I went on active duty to serve my 2-year obligation in the Marine Reserve.

Mr. Jenner. You did not return to college after you were mustered out of the Marines?

Mr. Thornley. No, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Was your discharge honorable?

Mr. Thornley. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Where were you based when you first met Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. Thornley. At a subsidiary of El Toro Marine Base, referred to as LTA, Santa Ana, Calif., or just outside of Santa Ana.

Mr. Jenner. What was your rank at that time?

Mr. Thornley. At that time I was acting corporal.

Mr. Jenner. What was your assignment then?

Mr. Thornley. I was an aviation electronics operator. I was working in an aircraft control center reading radarscopes and keeping track of ingoing and outgoing flights.

Mr. Jenner. What was Lee Harvey Oswald's assignment and activity service-wise at that period?

Mr. Thornley. At that time his assignments and activities were primary janitorial. He was—he had lost his clearance previously, and if I remember, he was assigned to make the coffee, mow the lawn, swab down decks, and things of this nature.

Mr. Jenner. What were the circumstances as you learned of them, or knew of them at the time, as to how or why he lost his clearance as you put it.

Mr. Thornley. Well, I asked somebody, and I was told, and I don't remember who told me, it was a general rumor, general scuttlebutt at the time, that he had poured beer over a staff NCO's head in an enlisted club in Japan, and had been put in the brig for that, and having been put in the brig would automatically lose his clearance to work in the electronics control center.

Mr. Jenner. I was going to ask you what losing clearance meant. You have indicated that—or would you state it more specifically.

Mr. Thornley. Well, that meant in a practical sense, that meant that he was not permitted to enter certain areas wherein the equipment, in this case equipment, was kept; that we would not want other unauthorized persons to have knowledge of. And on occasion information, I imagine, would also come to the man who was cleared, in the process of his work, that he would be expected to keep to himself.

Mr. Jenner. I assume you had clearance?

Mr. Thornley. Yes, sir; I was, I think, cleared for confidential at the time.

Mr. Jenner. Cleared for confidential. I was about to ask you what level of clearance was involved.

Mr. Thornley. I believe it was just confidential to work there at El Toro on that particular equipment.

Mr. Jenner. That is the clearance about which you speak when you talk about Oswald having lost it?

Mr. Thornley. Oswald, I believe, had a higher clearance. This is also just based upon rumor. I believe he at one time worked in the security files, it is the S & C files, somewhere either at LTA or at El Toro.

Mr. Jenner. Did you ever work in the security files?

Mr. Thornley. No, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And that was a level of clearance——

Mr. Thornley. Probably a secret clearance would be required.

85 Mr. Jenner. It was at least higher than the clearance about which you first spoke?

Mr. Thornley. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. The clearance that you had in mind of which you first spoke was the clearance to operate radar detection devices?

Mr. Thornley. Right.

Mr. Jenner. And your knowledge of his loss of clearance was by hearsay or rumor. As I understand it the circumstances took place off base one day?

Mr. Thornley. No; this was on base as I understand it. It was in an enlisted club or staff sergeant's club, something of that nature.

Mr. Jenner. He had gotten into difficulty with a staff sergeant and had poured beer on the person of a staff sergeant and gotten into some kind of an altercation?

Mr. Thornley. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. As a result of that he was court-martialed and had been subjected to the loss of clearance?

Mr. Thornley. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. Was that clearance of his restored?

Mr. Thornley. I doubt it very much, because 3 months afterwards, after I had left the outfit—I know it wasn't restored while I was in the outfit.

Mr. Jenner. When did you leave the outfit?

Mr. Thornley. I left in June and went overseas.

Mr. Jenner. Up to that time his clearance had not been restored?

Mr. Thornley. Definitely not. And shortly thereafter he got out of the service.

Mr. Jenner. So that as far as you have any personal knowledge Oswald never operated any radar equipment while he was at El Toro, did you say?

Mr. Thornley. Yes; El Toro, LTA. As far as my personal knowledge goes, he didn't.

Mr. Jenner. Would you state the circumstances under which you became acquainted—let me put it this way first. What was the extent of your acquaintance with Lee Harvey Oswald, and here at the moment I am directing myself only to whether you were friends, were you merely on the base together? Indicate the level of friendship first or acquaintanceship.

Mr. Thornley. I would say we were close acquaintances in the sense that we weren't friends in that we didn't pull liberty together or seek each other out, yet when we were thrown together in an assignment or something, moving equipment, something of that nature, we spoke and when we were on the base and happened to be in the same area and were not required to be working, we would sometimes sit down and discuss things. That would be my statement there.

Mr. Jenner. So there was a degree of affinity in the sense that you were friendly in performing your military tasks together whenever you were thrown together in that respect. You felt friendly toward each other. You were never off base with him on liberty?

Mr. Thornley. No, sir.

Mr. Jenner. There were times when you were at liberty on the base, I assume, and you and he fraternized?

Mr. Thornley. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Now, did you live in the same quarters?

Mr. Thornley. Well, not actually. We lived in quonset huts there, and he lived in a different hut than I did. We did live in the same general area, however.

Mr. Jenner. This acquaintance arose in the spring of 1959, is that correct?

Mr. Thornley. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Can you fix the time a little more definitely than merely the spring?

Mr. Thornley. I really can't, sir. I have been racking my brain on that one since November, and I can't fix the time. I do remember having taken some time off that year around Easter and going on a trip with some civilian friends of mine, who were out of school for Easter vacation, and I know I was in the outfit that Oswald was in at that time, and I know that either shortly86 before that trip or shortly afterwards. I can remember from the books I was reading at the time and things like that, that I met him.

Mr. Jenner. Do you associate the books you were reading at that time with anything Oswald may have been reading?

Mr. Thornley. Yes. Oswald was not reading but did advise me to read George Orwell's "1984" which I read at that time.

Mr. Jenner. Was he on the base when you came there?

Mr. Thornley. Well, I was on the base in a different outfit before I came into MACS 9, the outfit I was in.

Mr. Jenner. Marine Air Control Squadron.

Mr. Thornley. I was in MACS 4 which was right next door to MACS 9 or was at that time, on the base.

Mr. Jenner. Were you aware of his presence when you were in the other MACS?

Mr. Thornley. No; not until I came into his outfit. And only sometime after I came into that outfit did I become aware of his presence.

Mr. Jenner. Were you—I will withdraw that. Was Oswald as far as you knew on the base before you came over to his unit?

Mr. Thornley. I would assume so, but I wouldn't know for sure. I know he was recently back from Japan as were most of the men in Marine Control Squadron 9 when I came into it. How long he had been back I don't know. I certainly didn't know at that time. And thinking on what knowledge of him I have gained since then, I still couldn't say.

Mr. Jenner. Well, in any event you first became acquainted with or aware of his presence around Easter time in 1959?

Mr. Thornley. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And you were transferred from that base when?

Mr. Thornley. June.

Mr. Jenner. In June. So likely it was that you knew him in April, May, and in June until you were transferred out?

Mr. Thornley. Right.

Mr. Jenner. When in June were you transferred out?

Mr. Thornley. Once again the exact date would be available in my military record, but offhand——

Mr. Jenner. Give it to me as best you recall it, forepart, latter part, middle?

Mr. Thornley. Let's see, it was toward the latter part. In fact, I can give you pretty close to the exact date. It was around June 25, because we arrived in Japan on July 4 and it took 11 days to get over there. It took us some time to get debarked or to get embarked, rather.

Mr. Jenner. All right. I take it from the remark you have made in your reflecting on this matter that you were—you devoted yourself to some fairly considerable extent to reading?

Mr. Thornley. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And in what fields?

Mr. Thornley. Completely omniverous. Anything that I would happen to get a hold of I would read. At that time I was reading, well, at Oswald's advice I read "1984." At someone else's advice I was reading a book called "Humanism," by Corliss Lamont, as I remember, and I was reading either "The Brothers Karamazov" or the "Idiot" by Dostoievsky, I forget which, at that time.

Mr. Jenner. But your reading had some reasonable amount of organization or direction?

Mr. Thornley. None whatsoever; no, sir. It never has.

Mr. Jenner. I see. You weren't engaged in any organized reading at that time, were you?

Mr. Thornley. No.

Mr. Jenner. But there were areas which did draw your attention by and large?

Mr. Thornley. Definitely; yes.

Mr. Jenner. What were those areas?

Mr. Thornley. Philosophy, politics, religion.

Mr. Jenner. Did you find that Oswald had reasonably similar interests?

Mr. Thornley. Yes; I would say.

Mr. Jenner. In his reading?

87 Mr. Thornley. Yes; I would say particularly in politics and philosophy.

Mr. Jenner. Was it those mutual interests that brought about your acquaintance with him or some other fashion?

Mr. Thornley. Yes, sir; it was those interests. My first memory of him is that one afternoon he was sitting on a bucket out in front of a hut, an inverted bucket, with some other Marines. They were discussing religion. I entered the discussion. It was known already in the outfit that I was an atheist. Immediately somebody pointed out to me that Oswald was also an atheist.

Mr. Jenner. Did they point that out to you in his presence?

Mr. Thornley. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. What reaction did he have to that?

Mr. Thornley. He said, "What do you think of communism?" and I said——

Mr. Jenner. He didn't say anything about having been pointed out as being an atheist?

Mr. Thornley. No; he wasn't offended at this at all. He was—it was done in a friendly manner, anyway, and he just said to me—the first thing he said to me was with his little grin; he looked at me and he said, "What do you think of communism?" And I replied I didn't think too much of communism, in a favorable sense, and he said, "Well, I think the best religion is communism." And I got the impression at the time that he said this in order to shock. He was playing to the galleries, I felt.

Mr. Jenner. The boys who were sitting around?

Mr. Thornley. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Engaged in scuttlebutt?

Mr. Thornley. Right. He was smirking as he said this and he said it very gently. He didn't seem to be a glass-eyed fanatic by any means.

Mr. Jenner. Did you have occasion to discuss the same subject thereafter?

Mr. Thornley. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. From time to time?

Mr. Thornley. From time to time.

Mr. Jenner. Was it reasonably frequent?

Mr. Thornley. I would say about a half dozen times in that time period.

Mr. Jenner. In those subsequent discussions were some of them private in the sense you were not gathered around with others?

Mr. Thornley. Well, I don't recall us ever having a private serious discussion. A couple of times we were working together. There would be others around, not on a constant basis anyway, but coming and going, and as I recall a couple of times we were thrown together. Working together, we weren't having a serious discussion; we were joking.

Mr. Jenner. Did you have occasion in those additional half dozen instances of discussions with him, the viewpoint you have just expressed, that is, that his initial raising of the issue was more by way of provoking or shocking those about him rather than any utterances on his part of sincerity in a belief that communism was itself a religion?

Mr. Thornley. It became obvious to me after a while, in talking to him, that definitely he thought that communism was the best—that the Marxist morality was the most rational morality to follow that he knew of. And that communism was the best system in the world.

I still certainly wouldn't—wouldn't have predicted, for example, his defection to the Soviet Union, because once again he seemed idle in his admiration for communism. He didn't seem to be an activist.

Mr. Jenner. Would you explain what you mean by idle in his admiration of the communistic system?

Mr. Thornley. Well, it seemed to be theoretical. It seemed strictly a dispassionate appraisal—I did know at the time that he was learning the Russian language. I knew he was subscribing to Pravda or a Russian newspaper of some kind from Moscow. All of this I took as a sign of his interest in the subject, and not as a sign of any active commitment to the Communist ends.

Mr. Jenner. You felt there was no devotion there. That it was somewhat of an intellectual interest, a curiosity. But I don't want to put words in your mouth, so tell me.

Mr. Thornley. I wouldn't put it quite that weakly. While I didn't feel there88 was any rabid devotion there, I wouldn't call it a complete idle curiosity either. I would call it a definite interest.

Mr. Jenner. A definite interest.

Mr. Thornley. But not a fanatical devotion.

Mr. Jenner. You said you knew at that time that he was studying Russian. How did you become aware of that?

Mr. Thornley. Probably by hearsay once again. I do remember one time hearing the comment made by one man in the outfit that there was some other man in the outfit who was taking a Russian newspaper and who was a Communist and when I said, "Well, who is that?" he said, "Oswald," and I said, "Oh, well." That is probably where I learned it.

Mr. Jenner. How did you learn that he was a subscriber to Pravda and the other Russian publications you have mentioned?

Mr. Thornley. Well, I don't think—it was either Pravda or some other Russian publication.

Mr. Jenner. I see.

Mr. Thornley. The way I learned that was a story that I believe Bud Simco, a friend of mine in the same outfit, in the outfit at the same time, told me that one time a lieutenant, and I forget which lieutenant it was (I do remember at the time I did know who he was talking about) found out that Oswald, by—he happened to be in the mailroom or something, and saw a paper with Oswald's address on it.

Mr. Jenner. That is the officer happened to be in the mailroom?

Mr. Thornley. Yes; and that it was written—he noticed this paper was written in Russian and at the time got very excited, attempted to draw this to the attention of Oswald's section chief, the commanding officer, and, of course, there was nothing these people could do about it, and at the time the story was related to me. I remember I thought it was rather humorous that this young, either second or first lieutenant should get so excited because Oswald happened to be subscribing to a Russian newspaper.

Mr. Jenner. Was this lieutenant's name Delprado?

Mr. Thornley. I will bet it was. That is very familiar. I think so.

Mr. Jenner. Have you ever subscribed to a Russian language newspaper or other publications?

Mr. Thornley. Other Russian publications?

Mr. Jenner. Yes, sir.

Mr. Thornley. No, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Have you ever subscribed to a publication that was printed in the Russian language?

Mr. Thornley. No, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Have you ever been a subscriber to any literature by way of news media or otherwise, published by any organization reputed to be communistic or pink or that sort of thing? I don't want to get it too broad.

Mr. Thornley. Only I. F. Stone's newsletter and that certainly——

Mr. Jenner. Whose?

Mr. Thornley. I. F. Stone's newsletter and I wouldn't say——

Mr. Jenner. Tell me about that.

Mr. Thornley. He is a Washington reporter who is a rather extreme leftist, but certainly within the bounds of what is accepted in this country as non-subversive.

Mr. Jenner. Describe yourself in that respect. Where are you, a middle-of-the-roader?

Mr. Thornley. I would say I am an extreme rightist. I call myself a libertarian, which is that I believe in the complete sovereignty of the individual, or at least as much individual liberty as is practical under any given system.

Mr. Jenner. You don't have to be an extreme rightist to believe in the sovereignty of the individual.

Mr. Thornley. Well, it is getting that way in this country today. At least most people who listen to me talk call me a rightist. I wouldn't say so either. I think the political spectrum was fine for France at the time of the revolution. I don't think it applies to the United States of America today in any respect89 whatsoever. I don't think you can call a man an extreme leftist, rightist, or middle-of-the-roader and have him classified that simply.

Mr. Jenner. Do you have any brothers and sisters?

Mr. Thornley. I have two brothers.

Mr. Jenner. What do they do?

Mr. Thornley. They go to, one of them goes to junior college, I believe, and the other one goes to high school. They are in Whittier, Calif.

Mr. Jenner. Are your folks alive?

Mr. Thornley. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. What does your father do?

Mr. Thornley. He is a photoengraver.

Mr. Jenner. Let's get back to Oswald. Describe this individual to me. First describe him physically.

Mr. Thornley. Physically, I would say he was slightly below average height. Had, as I recall, gray or blue eyes. Always had, or almost always had a petulant expression on his face. Pursed-up lip expression, either a frown or a smile, depending on the circumstances. Was of average build, and his hair was brown, and tending to, like mine, tending to bald a little on each side.

Mr. Jenner. Above the temple. What would you say he weighed?

Mr. Thornley. I would say he weighed about 140 pounds, maybe 130.

Mr. Jenner. How tall was he?

Mr. Thornley. I would say he was about five-five maybe. I don't know.

Mr. Jenner. How tall are you?

Mr. Thornley. I am five-ten.

Mr. Jenner. Was he shorter than you?

Mr. Thornley. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. What habits did he have with respect to his person—was he neat, clean?

Mr. Thornley. Extremely sloppy.

Mr. Jenner. Extremely sloppy?

Mr. Thornley. He was. This I think might not have been true of him in civilian life.

Mr. Jenner. You don't know one way or the other?

Mr. Thornley. No; but I do have reason to believe that it wasn't true of him in civilian life because it fitted into a general personality pattern of his: to do whatever was not wanted of him, a recalcitrant trend in his personality.

Mr. Jenner. You think it was deliberate?

Mr. Thornley. I think it tended to be deliberate; yes. It was a gesture of rebellion on his part.

Mr. Jenner. Did you ever discuss that matter with him, as dress.

Mr. Thornley. No.

Mr. Jenner. The attitude of rebellion?

Mr. Thornley. No; because this attitude of rebellion was a fairly common thing in the service.

Mr. Jenner. On the part of others as well as Oswald?

Mr. Thornley. As well as Oswald. Oswald did carry it to—was the most extreme example I can think of stateside. However, overseas, in the outfit he had been in before, as I discovered later, this was quite common.

Mr. Jenner. How much later?

Mr. Thornley. Three months—well, immediately, as soon as I left, as soon as I got overseas. I walked in to the barracks on the Fourth of July over there and saw beer bottles spread all over, and some character sitting in the back of the barracks with a broken beer bottle cutting his arm, for what reason I don't remember. They found beer cans in a trash can in MACS 9 and there was a drastic investigation; so there is an indication of a difference between stateside and overseas. Oswald was typical, very typical of the outfit he had just left overseas.

Mr. Jenner. So that it is your impression, you would say. I gather, that as of that particular time when you first knew him that he was still carrying some of his experience personal attentionwise from what he had experienced overseas?

Mr. Thornley. Yes.

90 Mr. Jenner. And he was still following the habits he had acquired overseas?

Mr. Thornley. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Did you think it went beyond that, this unkemptness or this sloppiness?

Mr. Thornley. It did go beyond that, because he seemed to be a person who would go out of his way to get into trouble, get some officer or staff sergeant mad at him. He would make wise remarks. He had a general bitter attitude toward the Corps. He used to pull his hat down over his eyes so he wouldn't have to look at anything around him and go walking around very Beetle Bailey style.

Mr. Jenner. What is Beetle Bailey?

Mr. Thornley. Beetle Bailey is a comic strip character who walks around with his hat over his eyes very much as Oswald did.

Mr. Jenner. You want to keep in mind, Mr. Thornley, I am an old man and there are things I don't pick up or get hep to.

Mr. Thornley. This is nothing recent. This is a comic strip that has been around quite a few years now.

Mr. Jenner. You go on and tell us about his personality.

Mr. Thornley. All right.

Mr. Jenner. Including any physical characteristics or habits.

Mr. Thornley. I think I have covered all physical characteristics. His shoes were always unshined. As I mentioned, he walked around with the bill of his cap down over his eyes and you got the impression that he was doing this so he wouldn't have to look at anything around him.

Mr. Jenner. And he was doing that so that he would not be assigned additional work or——

Mr. Thornley. No; he was just doing that—this was just an attempt, I think, on his part, to blot out the military so he wouldn't have to look at it; he wouldn't have to think about it. In fact, I think he made a comment to that effect at one time; that when he had his bill of his cap over his eyes so he would see as little as possible, because he didn't like what he had to look at.

He had, as I remember, he had a sense of humor, and I can only think of a couple of examples of it. I have only been able to think of a couple of examples of it over the past few months, but I have a strong general impression in my mind that there were more examples that I just don't remember.

Mr. Jenner. Well, you draw on your recollection as best you can and you just keep telling us now in your own words and I will try to not interrupt you too much.

Mr. Thornley. All right. One example was, that I remember—of course, it was well known in the outfit that, or popularly believed that Oswald had Communist sympathies——

Mr. Jenner. You didn't share that view?

Mr. Thornley. Not as much as some did, and while this was popularly believed, I mention this as kind of a framework for the significance of Oswald's comment: Master Sergeant Spar, our section chief, jumped up on the fender one day and said, "All right, everybody gather around," and Oswald said in a very thick Russian accent, "Ah ha, collective farm lecture," in a very delighted tone.

This brought him laughs at the time, and he had gotten me to read "1984," as I mentioned earlier, and this was one of his favorites——

Mr. Jenner. Tell me what "1984" was.

Mr. Thornley. This was a book about—it is a projection into the future, supposed to take place in 1984 in England under a complete police state. It is, I would say, an anti-utopian novel, by George Orwell, a criticism of English socialism and what it might lead to, based upon Orwell's experiences with communism and nazism, his observations about a society in which a mythical leader called Big Brother dominates everybody's life. Where there are television cameras on every individual at all times watching his every act, where sex is practically outlawed, where the world is perpetually at war, three big police states constantly at war with one another, and where thought police keep every, all of the citizens in line. Oswald would often compare the Marine Corps with the system of government outlined in "1984."

I remember one day we were loading equipment——

91 Mr. Jenner. By way of protest against the Marine Corps?

Mr. Thornley. Yes; humorously, satirically. One day we were unloading, moving a radarscope off the truck and it slipped, and he said, "Be careful with Big Brother's equipment."

It was things like this. He did a lot of that.

I remember one day he—I was walking along with my hands in my pocket, which is something you don't do in the service if you are—certainly if you are in an infantry outfit you don't dare. Things were a little lax in our outfit, so we could get away with it once in a while, so I happened to be walking along with my hands in my pockets and suddenly I heard a voice: "Hey, Smith, Winston," and rattle off a serial number, "get your hands out of your pockets," which was a direct quote from the book "1984."

These are the only examples of Oswald's, that particular aspect of Oswald's character that I recall.

Mr. Jenner. I am stimulated to ask you this question by something you just said. Did he have a good memory?

Mr. Thornley. I think he must have had a good memory; yes. If he wanted to remember something, he could. I think he also had good ability to blot out unpleasant thoughts in his mind.

Mr. Jenner. What about his powers of assimilation of what he read, and his powers of critique?

Mr. Thornley. I certainly think he understood much more than many people in the press have seemed to feel. I don't think he was a man who was grasping onto his particular beliefs because he didn't understand them. I don't think he was just trying to know something over his head, by any means. I think he understood what he was talking about.

Sometimes I think there were gaps in his knowledge. I think there were many things he didn't know, and this came from a haphazard education.

Mr. Jenner. You became acquainted with the fact that he had had a somewhat haphazard education?

Mr. Thornley. It was obvious. I didn't become acquainted with it specifically until recently in the news. But——

Mr. Jenner. You had that impression at the time?

Mr. Thornley. I had that impression; yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. How did that impression arise? Because of the lack of analysis or real critique on his part of that which he was reading? Inability to assimilate the thrust of a work?

Mr. Thornley. No; I wouldn't say that. I would say he could analyze what he read very well, but it was a very subjective impression, and the idea I got was that there were a lot of things he didn't know, and just a lot of facts that he wasn't familiar with. I guess sometimes, probably in discussions, I would run into something. I would mention something and he would say, "What is that?"

I know we did have a couple of very hot arguments and I am sure we were throwing facts at one another, and he was certainly able to belt them out when he wanted to, facts that suited his purpose in arguing.

Mr. Jenner. What was your impression of his—the extent of his formal education and the extent of any private education of his; that is, reading—self-education.

Mr. Thornley. Self-education. I was certainly surprised that—when I read in the papers that he had not graduated, I think they said he had not graduated from high school.

Mr. Jenner. That is correct.

Mr. Thornley. I thought he had graduated from high school. I assumed that. I would say that his self-education certainly must have been—perhaps, in fact, he took USAFI courses, U.S. Armed Forces Institute courses, or something along that line, because he was one who gave the impression of having some education, certainly.

Mr. Jenner. Do you have an impression of his intellect?

Mr. Thornley. Yes; I think he was——

Mr. Jenner. I am speaking in the abstract.

92 Mr. Thornley. I think he was extremely intelligent, with what information he had at hand he could always do very well and in an argument he was quick. He was quick to answer, and it was not a matter of just grabbing at something. It was a matter of coming back with a fairly precise answer to your question or to your objection to his argument.

Mr. Jenner. I take it then it was your impression—I will change my question because I don't want to ask a leading question here.

What was your impression as to whether his learning, in the sense we are talking about now, was superficial or was he able to master that which he read, and engage in personal self-critique of that which he read, discover its weaknesses, and apprehend its major thrust?

Mr. Thornley. Well, I would say as I have said before, he certainly understood what he read. How much he had read, I don't know, but I do know that when he got on a subject in which he was interested, he showed a grasp of it. This is true with the book "1984," for example. It is true with Marxism.

Mr. Jenner. Now that interests me also. You mentioned that before; that is, his espousal of or interest in Marxism as such. What was his ability, if he had any, and I am talking now idealistically only, to compare Marxism, communism, democracy?

Mr. Thornley. I understand. I think——

Mr. Jenner. And did he understand the distinctions?

Mr. Thornley. Well, I think he understood the distinctions as well as most reasonably educated people do. I think he certainly had a Marxist bias in how—where he drew the lines.

For example, he could look upon the Soviet system today as a democracy by, of course, giving a completely different definition to the word "democracy" than I, for example. He would give——

Mr. Jenner. Can you remember some discussions or incidents that explain that? Would he use objectivism?

Mr. Thornley. Well, I remember one in particular that always reminded me of his general outlook.

One day we got into an argument and I thought I was really going to pin him to the wall, I thought I was going to win this argument.

Mr. Jenner. On what subject?

Mr. Thornley. On Marxism. On the theory of history.

Mr. Jenner. Reconstruct the argument for me.

Mr. Thornley. Well, all right. Let me add this.

When I was in my freshman year in college, in my English class, I believe it was, perhaps it was a history class we had been required to read, it was a history workshop, we had been required to read the Communist manifesto which presents an outline of the theory of the Marx-Engels outlook on past and future history. The dialectical outlook. Oswald was also familiar with this outlook. As to what it constituted we both agreed. Oswald had argued previously that communism was a rational approach to life, a scientific approach to life, Marxism.

Mr. Jenner. This was in argumentation with you?

Mr. Thornley. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. All right.

Mr. Thornley. With me. I challenged him to show me any shred of evidence to support the idea that history took place in the manner described by Engels and Marx (this was not just an arbitrary system looted as many suspect, from Hegel) and he, after some attempt to give me a satisfactory answer, which he was unable to do, became aware of that and he admitted that there was no justification, logically, for the Communist theory of history or the Marxist theory of history, but that Marxism was still, in his opinion, the best system for other reasons that there was——

Mr. Jenner. Best as against what?

Mr. Thornley. As against, well primarily as against religions. He did—that first comment of his always sticks in my mind, about communism being the best religion. He did think of communism as, not as a religion in the strict sense but as an overwhelming cultural outlook that, once applied to a country, would make it much better off than, say the Roman Catholic Church cultural outlook93 or the Hindu cultural outlook or the Islamic cultural outlook, and he felt that, as I say, to get back to this argument, he felt that there were enough other things about communism that justified it that one could accept the theory of history on faith.

Mr. Jenner. What other things?

Mr. Thornley. Well, for one thing: the idea that he felt—as did Marx—that under capitalism workers are exploited, that in some way they are robbed of their full reward for their work by means of entrepreneurs' profits, and he felt that Marxism took his money but instead of taking it away from the worker spent it on the worker.

He felt that under a Soviet—under the present Soviet system, for example, that the money was spent for the benefit of the people rather than going to the individual who happened to be running the enterprise, and he thought this was a juster situation.

Mr. Jenner. Did you raise with him the price the individual had to pay for the material accommodation accorded the worker under the Communist system; for the substance or money, of which you speak, being returned to the worker? The price paid in terms of individual liberty as against the capitalistic or democratic system?

Mr. Thornley. You couldn't say this to him. Because he would say: "How do you know? How do you know what is going on there."

Mr. Jenner. First; did you raise it with him?

Mr. Thornley. I raised it with him.

Mr. Jenner. You being a libertarian as you say?

Mr. Thornley. Well, at that time I was—my ideas have changed since that time. At that time I was much to the left in my political thinking once again; well, I would say about in the same position that Mr. Stone who I spoke of earlier is now. I was on the "left-hand" side of the acceptable political spectrum in this country, and so, therefore, these issues, the issues I would now raise with him had I again the chance to speak to him, would be much different than the issues I raised with him at that time. I did not raise that issue particularly, I did not push it.

Mr. Jenner. Was there much, if any, discussion at the time on the issue of individual liberty?

Mr. Thornley. No; very little, because I wasn't too concerned about it at the time and neither was he. We were both concerned about what was the best for the greatest number of people. I don't think that concept was clear to either one of us.

Mr. Jenner. But, even having in mind the status of your political thinking at that moment, your political thinking did not square with his?

Mr. Thornley. No; I was opposed to the great trust that he put in, much greater than I suspected at that time, of course, trust that he put in the Soviet Government in the world today I felt they were misguided idealists. He felt they weren't misguided.

Mr. Jenner. Give us as best you can recall his comments and views with respect to capitalism of the variety then existing, or as he understood existed in this Nation.

Mr. Thornley. Well, I wouldn't say that we—I can't recall us having gone into any detail about anything so relevant to anything as capitalism in this Nation at the time.

Mr. Jenner. These discussions were broader. They were more abstract?

Mr. Thornley. Usually, yes. Whenever we got specific we usually discussed the Marine Corps.

Mr. Jenner. I see. You did not discuss the United States of America as such?

Mr. Thornley. No.

Mr. Jenner. And the Soviet Union as such, and compared the two countries?

Mr. Thornley. Well, as I say, you couldn't do this with Oswald because whenever you tried to make any statement about the Soviet Union he would challenge it on the grounds that we were probably propagandized in this country and we had no knowledge of what was going on over there.

Mr. Jenner. Did he purport to know what was going on over there?

Mr. Thornley. No.

94 Mr. Jenner. Did he show any interest in what was going on over there?

Mr. Thornley. He definitely showed interest.

Mr. Jenner. Give us some examples and tell us.

Mr. Thornley. I would say he took an agnostical approach to this. It seemed that he didn't know whether to believe what he read in his Russian newspaper, not that he used those exact words, or what he heard in this country. He took the attitude that "Well, they may be right and we may be right but I suspect they are right." This, of course, once again, I always got the impression in any of these discussions that part of his slight bias toward the Communist way of life was an act of rebellion against the present circumstances.

Mr. Jenner. Do you think that bias, if any, was a mild bias?

Mr. Thornley. I thought so at the time.

Mr. Jenner. Did you have any impression at anytime that he was interested from an objective standpoint; that he might like to experience by way of personal investigation what was going on in Russia?

Mr. Thornley. It never dawned on me. It was the farthest thing from my mind. Although I certainly will say this: When he did go to Russia it seemed to me as a much more likely alternative for Oswald than say joining the Communist Party in the United States.

Mr. Jenner. Excuse me.

Mr. Thornley. It seemed to fit his personality.

Mr. Jenner. Would you read that? I lost the thought of it.

(The reporter read the answer.)

Mr. Jenner. Would you elaborate, please?

Mr. Thornley. Well, Oswald was not militant. At the time it didn't seem to me he was at all militant. That he was at all a fighter, the kind of person who would glory in thinking of himself as marching along in a great crusade of some kind. He would be the kind of person who would take a quiet, as quiet as possible, for him personally, approach to something. For example, going to the Soviet Union would be a way he could experience what he thought were the benefits of communism without committing himself to storming the Bastille, so to speak.

Mr. Jenner. Is it a fair statement that, in seeking to interpret or enlarge upon what you say, that you did not have the impression of him as being a person who thought in terms of seeking to implant in this country, for example, by force or violence or other leadership, communism or Marxism so as materially to affect or change the government here?

Mr. Thornley. No; I don't think he felt he had to do that. I think he felt that that would inevitably happen some day and he was just getting into the swing of things by doing things his way. I don't think he felt that he could do much to promote the Communist cause or hinder it.

Mr. Jenner. Did he ever lead you to believe or did you have the impression that he had any thought or desire or inclination to implant communism here or elsewhere.

Mr. Thornley. No; not any more than merely to with the argument. He certainly would have liked to have converted me or any other person who was willing to discuss it with him. He would have liked to have persuaded them that his ideas were correct. If he had done so, I have no idea what he would have done then. I don't think he did either.

Mr. Jenner. What about his relationships, camaraderie with others on base?

Mr. Thornley. Almost nil.

Mr. Jenner. Almost nil.

Mr. Thornley. Yes, he got along——

Mr. Jenner. Enlarge on that please.

Mr. Thornley. He got along with very few people.

Mr. Jenner. Why was that, in your opinion?

Mr. Thornley. He was extremely unpredictable. He and I stopped speaking before I finally left the outfit. This will give you an example of——

Mr. Jenner. How did that arise?

Mr. Thornley. It was a Saturday morning. We had been called out to march in a parade for a man or some men—I believe they were staff NCO's—who were retiring from the Marine Corps. This was a common occurrence.95 Every now and then we had to give up our Saturday morning liberty to go march in one of these parades and everybody, of course, having just gotten up, and having to stand out, to look forward to a morning of standing out in the hot sun and marching around, was irritable. So, we were involved at the moment in a "hurry-up and wait routine" which is common in large organizations like the military. We were waiting at the moment, in the parking lot by the parade ground, sitting. Oswald and I happened to be sitting next to each other on a log that was used to bank cars, in the parking lot. I had just finished "1984" a couple of days earlier, and I had not yet discussed it with Oswald, and I was—he said something and I said something; I don't recall what it was—I was definitely thinking of "1984" at the time and I was using terms from "1984." Oswald didn't seem to be particularly amused by what I was saying, and he was—he seemed to be kind of lost in his own thoughts, and so I stopped making any comments at all to him for awhile. Then he turned to me and said something about the stupidity of the parade, of the whole circumstance right at the moment, how angry it made him, and I said, I believe my words were, "Well, comes the revolution you will change all that."

At which time he looked at me like a betrayed Caesar and screamed, screamed definitely, "Not you, too, Thornley." And I remember his voice cracked as he said this. He was definitely disturbed at what I had said and I didn't really think I had said that much. He put his hands in his pockets and pulled his hat down over his eyes and walked away and went over and sat down someplace else alone, and I thought, well, you know, forget about it, and I never said anything to him again and he never said anything to me again.

Mr. Jenner. You mean you never spoke to each other from that time on?

Mr. Thornley. No; and shortly thereafter I left the outfit for overseas. I don't recall that we were ever in a situation where we would have spoken, but I know we never spoke after that. And this happened with many people, this reaction of Oswald's, and therefore he had few friends. He never seemed to have any one friend for a long length of time, one acquaintance. He seemed to guard against developing real close friendships.

Mr. Jenner. Did you ever—excuse me, you recall being interviewed by an agent of the FBI?

Mr. Thornley. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. This was in New Orleans on Monday the 25th of——

Mr. Thornley. This was on an afternoon. Does he have the time down?

Mr. Jenner. 25th of November.

Mr. Thornley. That was Secret Service, wasn't it? Let's see, the 22d, 23d, 24th.

Mr. Jenner. This was Special Agent Merwin Alderson and Special Agent Richard Farrell. It was the Monday following the assassination.

Mr. Thornley. What I believe happened is—I believe they arrived in Arnaud's Restaurant where I was working at the time about midnight Sunday night so it would actually be Monday, yes, sir, that they talked to me. I gathered at the time these gentlemen were from the Secret Service, but those are the gentlemen.

Mr. Jenner. Did you say to them in connection with this sudden termination of the relationship between yourself and Oswald "that you had made this comment to Oswald, that he was a Communist and that things would be different when the revolution came"?

Mr. Thornley. No; I didn't tell them he was a Communist; no. But Oswald, certainly that was his reason for his anger. There was an implied accusation of communism in my saying, "Comes the revolution you will change all that."

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mr. Thornley. You see, he wasn't understanding the comments I was making in relation to "1984" at all, our traditional meeting ground here. He was interpreting them in light of his alleged communism, and that is why he became angry. But no; I didn't say to him, "You are a Communist"—ever.

Mr. Jenner. It is your explanation.

Mr. Thornley. This was not my opinion.

Mr. Jenner. You are saying that he interpreted your comment to be that you accused him of being a Communist, and then he made the remark, "Not you, too."

96 Mr. Thornley. I am sure he interpreted that that way but I certainly didn't think he was a Communist and I certainly didn't tell him so.

Mr. Jenner. To what did you attribute this inability of his to maintain reasonably cordial or at least military-service family relations with his fellow marines?

Mr. Thornley. Well, at the time I just thought—well, the man is a nut—at the very moment it happened, I dismissed it without thinking about it.

Mr. Jenner. See if you can articulate a little more, when you say "a nut," a lot of people will interpret the expression "a nut" differently.

Mr. Thornley. I understand that. I was just trying to give you my first impression first: that he was some kind of a nut, and I stopped thinking about it.

Mr. Jenner. You mean a nut in the sense of an extremist, not an organized thinker?

Mr. Thornley. I didn't think about that enough to classify it. I just thought, "something is wrong with him, maybe something is bugging him today, maybe he is crazy, I don't know what," but I just wasn't at that moment—it wasn't that important to me, I didn't feel much better than he did that morning, I am sure, so I just shrugged it off.

Later, I did reflect on it, and that, combined with his general habits in relation to his superiors, and to the other men in the outfit, caused me to decide that he had a definite tendency toward irrationality at times, an emotional instability. Once again right away, I didn't know exactly what was the cause of this. A couple of years later I had good reason to think about it some more, at which time I noticed——

Mr. Jenner. Now when please? Before the assassination?

Mr. Thornley. Yes, while working on my book, "The Idle Warriors."

Mr. Jenner. About when was this?

Mr. Thornley. From the time he went to the Soviet Union until February of 1962.

Mr. Jenner. You learned that he had gone to the Soviet Union?

Mr. Thornley. Yes; I was stationed at his former outfit, Marine Air Control Squadron 1, at the time he went to the Soviet Union.

Mr. Jenner. Where were you then stationed?

Mr. Thornley. That is where I was at the time.

Mr. Jenner. What country?

Mr. Thornley. At Atsugi, Japan.

Mr. Jenner. I see. And you learned about it through what source?

Mr. Thornley. The Stars and Stripes, the military newspaper in the Far East. It was on page 3, I believe, a little article about Lee Harvey Oswald having appeared in the American Embassy in Moscow, having plopped down his passport and requested Soviet citizenship. My first reaction was, "Good Lord, what is going on here?" And afterward, I, of course—it began to occur to me, his interest in communism, and I started kicking myself, thinking, well, you know, just for so misjudging a person. I just——

Mr. Jenner. Misjudging? What respect, please?

Mr. Thornley. As far as his sincerity went. I did not ever think he was so interested in communism to go to all the trouble to go to the Soviet Union and certainly to jeopardize his citizenship, and so forth. This was a great surprise to me. And right away I began to try to figure out the mechanism of his thinking.

Mr. Jenner. I see. Keep going and tell me what your rationalization and thinking was at that time.

Mr. Thornley. And what caused him to do this. This gets us back to the emotional instability and why did it occur. I do believe, to begin with, Oswald, how long ago he had acquired the idea I don't know, but I think in his mind it was almost a certainty that the world would end up under a totalitarian government or under totalitarian governments.

I think he accepted Orwell's premise in this that their was no fighting it. That sooner or later you were going to have to love Big Brother and I think this was the central, I think this was the central thing that disturbed him and caused many of his other reactions.

I think he wanted to be on the winning side for one thing, and, therefore,97 the great interest in communism. I think he wanted—I think he felt he was under a totalitarian system while in the Marine Corps, and, therefore, the extreme reactions when someone would call him a Communist. I think he had a persecution complex, and I think he strove to maintain it. I could not go so far as to say why. Perhaps it was necessary to his self-esteem in some way. This was and is the general conclusion I now have as to his general motivations, his overall motivations, insofar as he has tended to be emotionally unstable.

Mr. Jenner. Do you think he was emotionally unstable?

Mr. Thornley. I think so.

Mr. Jenner. That is an opinion you gathered from your association with him in the Marines.

Mr. Thornley. Yes. Primarily once again from that last experience, that short exchange and just the complete unexpectedness of it. And then, of course, after that was when I learned some of the other things, such as the pouring the beer over the staff sergeant's head. These things, I don't know when I learned them, but I do definitely know I learned them afterwards because I——

Mr. Jenner. You mean you learned of that incident after you left the base at El Toro?

Mr. Thornley. I believe I learned it over in Japan, as a matter of fact, I believe soon after I got there somebody mentioned it in some connection or another, and that was because I remember, yes, I am sure it happened over there because I remember, then I said, "Oh, he was in this unit? He was in here in MACS 1?" and somebody said, "Yes." And that was another connection in my mind as far as Oswald was concerned.

And then when the defection occurred, I therefore felt that I—I had been thinking about writing a book on the Marine Corps. I had not decided exactly what it was going to concern, what it was going to be about as far as plot or theme went, the background would be the Marine Corps in Japan, because that was the first big, at that time to me, dramatic experience of my life suitable for a book, worth telling about.

So, when the defection occurred on that same day, I thought, "Well, this is it. I am in a perfect position to tell how this took place, why this happened." I was not so interested in explaining Lee Harvey Oswald to myself or anybody else, as I was in explaining that particular phenomenon of disillusionment with the United States after serving in the Marine Corps overseas in a peacetime capacity; thus the title: The Idle Warriors.

Since Oswald inspired the book, I did base a good deal of it as a matter of convenience on his personality and on his ideas.

Mr. Jenner. You said you had the impression as you sat there in Japan that here was a man whom you felt wanted to be on the winning side.

Mr. Thornley. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. What impression did you have as to why? Did you, for example, have the impression that he felt that his life had been such that he had been deprived of the opportunity to be on a good side?

Mr. Thornley. No.

Mr. Jenner. That he conceived to be the leading side?

Mr. Thornley. No. I had a definite impression of why.

Mr. Jenner. All right.

Mr. Thornley. I think it is a mistake that many people make, and I think it is a mistake he shared, and that is: he looked upon, not only Marxists make this mistake, but he looked upon history as God. He looked upon the eyes of future people as some kind of tribunal, and he wanted to be on the winning side so that 10,000 years from now people would look in the history books and say, "Well, this man was ahead of his time. This man was"—he wanted to be looked back upon with honor by future generations. It was, I think, a substitute, in his case, for traditional religion.

The eyes of the future became what to another man would be the eyes of God, or perhaps to yet another man the eyes of his own conscience.

Mr. Jenner. So it wasn't in the prosaic sense of merely wanting to be on the "winning side."

Mr. Thornley. No.

98 Mr. Jenner. When things developed——

Mr. Thornley. No; I don't think he expected things to develop within his lifetime. I am sure that he didn't. He just wanted to be on the winning side for all eternity.

Mr. Jenner. You had the impression that that was in terms of selflessness? That he thought also in terms that Lee Harvey Oswald would be associated with this forward thinking?

Mr. Thornley. Right. He was concerned with his image in history and I do think that is why he chose once again, once again why he chose the particular method he chose and did it in the way he did. It got him in the newspapers. It did broadcast his name out. I think he probably expected the Russians to accept him on a much higher—in a much higher capacity than they did.

I think he expected them to, in his own dreams, to invite him to take a position in their government, possibly as a technician, and I think he then felt that he could go out into the world, into the Communist world and distinguish himself and work his way up into the party, perhaps. He was definitely——

Mr. Jenner. Did it have to be the Communist world or could it be any world that he saw projected into the future?

Mr. Thornley. Definitely.

Mr. Jenner. And as you put it this, in your opinion, had become a religion with him.

Mr. Thornley. Much more than he himself realized even though he called it his religion.

Mr. Jenner. Did you have the impression there was a personal selflessness, that is a—I will put it in terms of disregard or rather this way—that as far as his physical person was concerned, he wasn't concerned about life in the sense that he wanted to continue to maintain life in his body?

Mr. Thornley. No; I think he wanted physical happiness. I think this is why he didn't do something like just join the Communist Party. I believe he felt that was dangerous. I think he wanted to live comfortably. But I think if it came to a choice between the two, or to put it this way, more relevant to events that developed later, I think if it became to his mind impossible for him to have this degree of physical comfort that he expected or sought, I think he would then throw himself entirely on the other thing he also wanted, which was the image in history.

I don't think that—I think he wanted both if he could have them. If he didn't, he wanted to die with the knowledge that, or with the idea that he was somebody.

Mr. Jenner. Did you have the impression at any time that he, in turn, embraced a realization that he was lacking in ability to accomplish the former, that is, personal comfort and status, that is that he felt that there was a lack of ability, capacity, training, education on his part?

Mr. Thornley. When I knew him, I don't think he had the vaguest thought in that direction. I do definitely, of course, based solely upon what I have read in the newspapers, think he came to that moment, after returning to the United States from the Soviet Union. I think he was getting panicky.

Mr. Jenner. In our discussion you can see it is important to me to obtain your thinking, uninfluenced to the extent you can do it by subsequent events. Of course complete lack of influence is not possible, but I am seeking your views as to your state of mind prior to November 22.

Mr. Thornley. All right. I would say that prior to November 22, I felt that he had gradually become disillusioned with the United States for many reasons, at the bottom was also his conviction, well, in fact, his disillusionment with the United States in the Far East probably contributed to some extent to his conviction that the Communists would eventually prevail, the Communist culture would eventually prevail in the world, and I then had the feeling that he certainly—I thought he would probably stay in Russia, for example, forever.

I didn't know what he was doing there. I realized from what I read at that time that he was not—he did not have Russian citizenship. He was staying there as an immigrant. I expected him probably to adjust to Russian life and that would be the last that the Western World would ever hear of Oswald.

99 Everything Oswald has ever done has surprised me.

Mr. Jenner. Please elaborate on that.

Mr. Thornley. When I knew him and since I knew him, when I knew him I was surprised when he was offended at my statement about the coming of the revolution that Saturday morning. I was surprised when I read in the papers overseas that he had gone to the Soviet Union. I was surprised when he came back. And I was entirely caught unaware when it turned out that he was involved in the assassination, to such an extent that for some time afterwards, I thought he was innocent.

Mr. Jenner. Why were you surprised when he came back and tell us before you do that where were you and how did you find out about it.

Mr. Thornley. I was in New Orleans. My parents sent me an article from the Los Angeles Times about it. The reason I was surprised at his coming back was as I said before, I just expected that would be the last I would hear of him. I fully expected him to adjust to Soviet life. I thought what he—at that time I thought what he probably lacked in the Marine Corps was any sympathy for the overall purpose of the Marine Corps. Whereas he certainly had sympathy for the overall purpose of the Soviet Government, so I don't think he would mind the restrictions imposed on him, as he resented them in the Marine Corps.

I did not expect him to become disillusioned, certainly, with the Soviet Union. I am not, of course, sure that he did become disillusioned with it. It just seemed unlike him to come back to this country when he said he would never live in either as a capitalist or as a worker.

Mr. Jenner. When did he say that?

Mr. Thornley. He said that at a press conference in Moscow according to the papers.

Mr. Jenner. This was something you read in the Stars and Stripes?

Mr. Thornley. I don't know whether I read this in the Stars and Stripes or whether I read this—I certainly read it when he came back from Russia, I remember. It was in the article from the Times my folks sent me. Said when he had left for the Soviet Union he had said such-and-such, quote.

Mr. Jenner. You said you did not expect him to become disillusioned with Soviet Russia. Was it your impression at any time, take the several stages, that he had a conviction with respect to any form of political philosophy or government?

Mr. Thornley. Well, he did definitely always before and after have a Marxist bias. From anything that has come to me, that has never—I have never reason—never had reason to doubt that.

Mr. Jenner. That, you think, was a conviction?

Mr. Thornley. I think that was an irrevocable conviction, you might say.

Mr. Jenner. You do not think it was not merely a theoretical concept which he used for argumentation?

Mr. Thornley. Let me put it this way. I think you could sit down and argue with him for a number of years in a great marathon argument and have piles of facts and I don't think you could have changed his mind on that unless you knew why he believed it in the first place. I certainly don't. I don't think with any kind of formal argument you could have shaken that conviction. And that is why I say irrevocable. It was just—never getting back to looking at things from any other way once he had become a Marxist, whenever that was.

Mr. Jenner. Was he able to articulate distinctions between Marxism, communism, capitalism, democracy?

Mr. Thornley. At the time I knew him and argued with him he didn't bother to articulate distinctions between Marxism and communism. At a latter time I understand he did.

Mr. Jenner. He attempted to.

Mr. Thornley. At the time I knew his communism was the modern, living vicar of Marxism, period.

Mr. Jenner. Were you in New Orleans when he was arrested for distributing Fair Play for Cuba Committee leaflets?

Mr. Thornley. I arrived in New Orleans in the early part of September. If I was in New Orleans——

100 Mr. Jenner. 1963?

Mr. Thornley. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. This occurred in August of 1963.

Mr. Thornley. Then I wasn't there; no.

Mr. Jenner. Did you hear about it?

Mr. Thornley. No; I didn't. I didn't hear about it until after the assassination.

Mr. Jenner. Did you ever hear any of those tapes?

Mr. Thornley. I heard part of one of them after the assassination, once again.

Mr. Jenner. Did that part include his effort to distinguish between Marxism and democracy in response to a question put to him by either Mr. Stuckey or one of the other participants?

Mr. Thornley. That is exactly what he was talking about at the time. I happened to be standing in the television station in New Orleans and he was saying, and I just got a snatch of it, I was passing through the room or something; and he was saying, "Well, there are many Marxist countries in the world today."

Mr. Jenner. This was by way of his answering a question as to what was the distinction between Marxism and communism?

Mr. Thornley. Yes; he was saying there are many non-Communist Marxist countries in the world today and he was definitely making a distinction between Marxism and communism.

Mr. Jenner. But all he did was to cite the countries. He didn't attempt to make the distinction.

Mr. Thornley. It was only a snatch of it.

Mr. Jenner. That was a fair representation of his utterances during those two radio broadcasts and one television broadcast. You mentioned also that you had a feeling on his part that he was laboring under a persecution complex?

Mr. Thornley. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. That was not necessarily based alone on the incident you relate that occurred on that Saturday morning? Were there other incidents?

Mr. Thornley. Yes; there were many comments on his part about the walls having ears, about—I think he felt the Marine Corps kept a pretty close watch on him because of his "subversive" activities and, for that reason in fact, I think he sought to keep himself convinced that he was being watched and being pushed a little harder than anyone else.

I don't think he was consciously, perhaps not consciously, aware of the fact that he went out of his way to get into trouble. I think it was kind of necessary to him to believe that he was being picked on. It wasn't anything extreme. I wouldn't go so far as to call it, call him a paranoid, but a definite tendency there was in that direction, I think.

Mr. Jenner. Would you put it in terms that he had the feeling that he was being unjustifiably put upon?

Mr. Thornley. Oh, always; yes. He was, in fact, you almost got the feeling that he was—this was happening because of his defense. I mean he was always speaking of the injustices which had been perpetrated against him.

Mr. Jenner. Of his injustices as to him personally, different from the treatment of others about him?

Mr. Thornley. To him personally; yes. Well, and it was the fact that he had lost his clearance, and had gone out of his way to get into some degree of trouble that went on to support this. For example, we would stand at muster in the morning, and Sergeant Spar would call the roll and he would say "Oswald" and Oswald would step out of the ranks and he would send him off to mow the lawn or something.

Oswald did get special treatment. As I say, he had brought it on himself but he made the most of it, too, as far as using it as a means of getting or attempting to get sympathy.

Mr. Jenner. Well, what was the sergeant's name?

Mr. Thornley. Sergeant Spar.

Mr. Jenner. Spar. In using his name, I don't wish to, I am not suggesting101 anything personal as to Sergeant Spar, but I am going to use him as a faceless Marine sergeant.

Mr. Thornley. And a very good one.

Mr. Jenner. You marines, at least some of you, I assume, as had GI's and others, you buttered up sergeants, too, didn't you, in order to avoid being assigned too often to disagreeable tasks?

Mr. Thornley. No; you didn't have to. So long as you kept in line and obeyed orders, you didn't have to—you weren't assigned any disagreeable task in the kind of outfit I was in because there weren't that many. When there was a disagreeable task to be done, it was assigned to somebody who had stepped out of line and there were always enough people who had stepped out of line and it was no problem to find them. In fact, the problem was to find enough disagreeable tasks to go around. The only exception to this would be overseas; a typhoon would hit sometimes and then everybody would have to go out and we would have to all, much to our dismay, wade around at 2 o'clock in the morning and tear down tents and so on and so forth.

Mr. Jenner. That was a thing that was common to all of you.

Mr. Thornley. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. It was not a disagreeable task in the sense we are talking about.

Mr. Thornley. Right; and that was never necessary to have to butter up that I can ever think of to a superior of any kind in order to get exempted from anything.

Mr. Jenner. Well, do you think Oswald was aware that all he had to be was more tractable to the customs and practices of the Marine Corps in which he was then living and he would not be assigned disagreeable tasks more often than others?

Mr. Thornley. Well, that is hard to say. I don't know whether he was aware of that or not. I am not sure whether he permitted himself to be aware of it. Maybe he was aware of it and maybe he couldn't help. He had compulsions to do these things. Maybe he thought it was worth it and maybe he didn't feel that he was being treated unjustly at all. Maybe he just wanted everybody to think he felt he was being treated unjustly, if you follow me.

Mr. Jenner. I do.

Mr. Thornley. It could have been any of these things. This—I think it would take a good psychiatrist to find out which.

Mr. Jenner. You also used the expression that he strove to maintain the status or milieu in which he had brought himself.

Mr. Thornley. Yes; I think this was possibly so. I think perhaps the feeling of being persecuted was necessary to his self-esteem. This is, I understand, a common thing, and it certainly fits in with everything else I know about him.

Mr. Jenner. Did you have that impression that you have just expressed at the time that you were associated with him in the Marines?

Mr. Thornley. At the time I was associated with him, I didn't have that impression because I was too busy wondering just what it was. I used to—I would see him doing something stupid, maybe a wisecrack to an officer, for example, and I would say, "Well, doesn't the idiot know that if he does that he is going to have to do this" and yet he would resent his punishment.

Mr. Jenner. What would he do afterward?

Mr. Thornley. As if it had been thrust upon him for no reason whatsoever, out of the blue.

Mr. Jenner. Did you have a feeling that he was impulsive in that respect, in the sense that sometimes he did things?

Mr. Thornley. He was definitely impulsive.

Mr. Jenner. That he had no control?

Mr. Thornley. Well, I don't know whether he had no control or whether he would just do things without thinking. I think maybe he just let, relaxed his controls once in a while, and why, I don't know.

Mr. Jenner. Did you have the feeling he was impulsive?

Mr. Thornley. Oh, definitely.

Mr. Jenner. He acted on the spur of the moment?

Mr. Thornley. He was spontaneous, very much so. This was—I had this impression the whole time I knew him.

102 Mr. Jenner. You did have the impression and I think you have mentioned it several times, that he had an exaggerated, either mild or otherwise, self-esteem.

Mr. Thornley. No; I didn't mention that that I recall. I did say that I think maintaining the persecution complex was necessary for his self-esteem and he was concerned very much with his image in history but I don't think in the sense of being secure about his self-esteem; I don't think he was either conceited, for example, egotistical, or just plain confident. I don't think—I don't have any reason to believe that he in his own eyes, had any reason to be proud of himself beyond the average, at most.

Mr. Jenner. I wasn't thinking of self-esteem in that sense and I didn't gather from your remark that you were thinking of it in that sense either, but rather in the sense of self-esteem in his own eyes, not in the sense of accomplishment or egoism.

Mr. Thornley. Now, I don't know. Self-esteem in one's own eyes, it seems to me, would have to be justified by some means. Some people justify it by means of their attraction to the opposite sex or by means of their standing in some country club. I think Oswald justified it by means of his recalcitrance, kind of a reverse self-esteem.

By means of his unwillingness to do what he was ordered, for example.

Mr. Jenner. Did you have the feeling that he sought the esteem of others, not necessarily his officers, but the esteem of somebody or some group or some persons about him and in his life——

Mr. Thornley. I think he wanted this very much but I don't think he knew how to go about getting it. He wanted it, and yet he certainly didn't—I think he would have felt he was cheating himself if he had offered them anything in exchange for it. He wanted it but he wanted it to come to him for no reason. He didn't want to have to earn it. I got that impression. That is a very mild impression.

Mr. Jenner. We are dealing in a very delicate field here and I am pressing you very severely.

Mr. Thornley. These are sometimes very gray, thin lines we have to distinguish between.

Mr. Jenner. We are probing for motivation. Did you ever discuss with him the matter of education?

Mr. Thornley. No.

Mr. Jenner. His own; or education in the abstract; or the need for education in order to attain accomplishments; or any regard to whether his status in life, his personal comfort, his personal peace, could be advanced by further education?

Mr. Thornley. No.

Mr. Jenner. Did you ever have the feeling of any discomfort on his part or inferiority because of his limited education?

Mr. Thornley. No. First of all, in the Marine Corps there is a prevalence of this kind of feeling among many of the enlisted men, and Oswald was exempt from it.

Mr. Jenner. What do you mean "exempt from it"?

Mr. Thornley. Well, he didn't, for example, have the usual bitterness toward somebody who read, well, just merely because he did read.

Mr. Jenner. He may have felt superior because he did read, did you have that feeling?

Mr. Thornley. Oh, yes.

Mr. Jenner. That was a definite feeling?

Mr. Thornley. I wouldn't say anything in my experience with him caused me to particularly notice that he felt superior because he did read. But except, yes, there is one time a friend of his, I don't know who it was, I haven't been able to recall the name at present, one morning looked over at our commanding officer who was walking by, Colonel Poindexter, an air ace in Korea——

Mr. Jenner. A what?

Mr. Thornley. An ace pilot in Korea, and made the comment, "There goes a mental midgit" which drew glee from Oswald, as I remember. But aside from that one particular incident—well, in any case, when he was dealing with military superiors he always felt superior to them. You got that impression. But103 dealing with the other marines who maybe did have an education or did not have an education, I didn't get any, ever get any impression one way or the other that he had a tendency to react to this.

Mr. Jenner. As between yourself and him, your association, what was your feeling? Did he regard himself as compatible with you and you with him?

Mr. Thornley. Yes; definitely. I didn't get any idea that he was—I thought his education was about the same as my own which certainly isn't spectacular by any means. I thought he might have had a year of college. I knew he had—I figured he had graduated from high school. It never occurred to me to think any more about it. I did, as I mentioned before, notice once in a while that he had gaps in his knowledge, but many people do, in fact all of us do, I am sure, in some fields.

But in Oswald's case they perhaps had an unusual pattern to them or something that made me notice them, perhaps. Perhaps he was better read, for example, on Marxist economics than any other school of economics, things like this. But that was the extent of it.

Mr. Jenner. Was there in your kicking around with him in your discussions—was there ever any discussion of your past, of his past, his life?

Mr. Thornley. None whatsoever. This I am almost certain of. I had no idea, for example, that he was from Texas or where he was from. At that time I don't recall him having a Texas accent, either. I had no idea that his father had died when he was young. I had no idea about his family, anything along this line and I don't think I ever discussed my past with him.

Mr. Jenner. Was any mention ever made of his attendance at or even the name of the Albert Schweitzer College?

Mr. Thornley. No.

Mr. Jenner. No discussions about any plans of his or possibility of his seeking further education of any kind or character when he was mustered out of the Marines?

Mr. Thornley. None whatsoever. For one thing we were not close enough friends to have any personal interests in each other. I looked upon him as somebody to argue with, another atheist—therefore, without the problem of religion between us—and to argue philosophy and politics about, and I think he looked upon me in about the same light.

Mr. Jenner. What was your dexterity with Marine weapons?

Mr. Thornley. Mine?

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mr. Thornley. I was a sharpshooter.

Mr. Jenner. What was his?

Mr. Thornley. I believe—well, at that time I didn't know.

Mr. Jenner. You didn't know. I want your viewpoint as of that time. While you were based at El Toro, did the unit engage with any regularity in rifle practice?

Mr. Thornley. None whatsoever. At that time, the whole time I was there, we did not engage in rifle practice.

Mr. Jenner. As a matter of curiosity on my own part, why was that?

Mr. Thornley. Well, in the Marine Corps you are required once a year to go to the rifle range and qualify. I was not there an entire year. Point No. 2, this was the Marine air wing which has much less of an emphasis on, in general, on rifle practice because it is not going to be utilized in battle, and a much stronger emphasis, in the case of the outfit we were in, on our particular military occupational specialty.

Mr. Jenner. Which was?

Mr. Thornley. 6749 Aviation Electronic Operator.

Mr. Jenner. Was this true when you reached Japan?

Mr. Thornley. More so. When I reached Japan, however, we did go to the rifle range one time shortly after I got there, and qualify. I recall at that time that in Japan we weren't even having rifle inspections. There you could put your rifle away in your locker and forget about it, and take it out every couple of months and make sure it hadn't corroded away, and put it back again.

Mr. Jenner. But you didn't even have rifle inspection?

104 Mr. Thornley. Once in a while we would have one, but not with any frequency whatsoever.

Mr. Jenner. Were you forewarned so that you could clean your rifle?

Mr. Thornley. No; usually you were caught unawares, which was why you kept it clean in the locker.

Mr. Jenner. I see. What are the grades of marksmanship?

Mr. Thornley. Marksman, sharpshooter, and expert.

Mr. Jenner. Marksman, sharpshooter, and expert. Therefore, I gather from that that marksman was the basic grade.

Mr. Thornley. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. A grade that every marine was expected to, and had to, attain that grade?

Mr. Thornley. Not had to attain, some didn't, and there was no particular penalty involved, except maybe something a little extracurricular when you were in boot camp. Otherwise, you didn't wear a marksman's medal is all. You didn't have any qualification in the infantry; of course, it would be looked down upon in the case of promotion or something like that. In the air wing it had much slighter significance than that. Maybe if you were being considered for a meritorious promotion and you hadn't qualified you wouldn't get it, but day to day it had no significance.

Mr. Jenner. Were the standards applied in the air wing with respect to qualifications for these three classes as severe or as high as the standards applied, let us say, in the Marine infantry?

Mr. Thornley. Exactly the same; yes.

Mr. Jenner. Exactly the same. Would you please state for me your concept of the degree of marksmanship for (a) marksman, (b) sharpshooter, (c) expert?

Mr. Thornley. Well, a marksman is an average shooter. A man, I think, could pick up a rifle and with a little commonsense and a minimum knowledge of the basics of marksmanship qualify as a marksman. When a man doesn't qualify as a marksman it is usually either because he is nervous on the day of qualification or he is gun shy or some outside influence confuses him; maybe he gets his windage off, something like this.

Sharpshooter is just a little above average. It ranges over about—a pretty wide field. But it is a man who—a sharpshooter would be a man, the average man, with a good, maybe a week of training on how to use a rifle, and some practice.

Whereas an expert is the kind of man I would hate to have on the other side in a war. He is accurate with his rifle up to and including 500 yards in a number of different positions. Hits the bull's-eye or close to the bull's-eye an overwhelming percentage of the time.

Mr. Jenner. Is that the category in which we would place that to which we refer generally as the sniper?

Mr. Thornley. Yes. Well, any man might be assigned as a sniper, I imagine. But an expert rifleman would perform much better.

Mr. Jenner. Maybe be a superior sniper.

Mr. Thornley. Yes. Definitely.

Mr. Jenner. And to attain the position of expert marksman must there be considerable practice and use of the weapon or is it more of natural ability?

Mr. Thornley. Now, you enter in once again to natural ability, just as not qualifying might be caused by a lack of natural ability of some kind. An expert rifleman probably would have a much calmer nervous system or, you might say, a much greater degree of control.

I would imagine training can make up for this. I know a couple of times I just missed expert by a few points. It seemed that I couldn't make expert. It seemed to me there was just something I didn't have in order to make expert. It was very frustrating.

Mr. Jenner. You tried?

Mr. Thornley. Yes; it takes a great degree of control, primarily. Of course, the other things like good eyesight and so on and so forth.

Mr. Jenner. Oh, yes.

Mr. Thornley. Yes.

105 Mr. Jenner. Did you ever discuss with Oswald his degree of proficiency in the use of the rifle?

Mr. Thornley. Not to the best of my knowledge.

Mr. Jenner. Did you have any impressions that you gathered in that respect while you were with him at El Toro?

Mr. Thornley. None whatsoever. Had somebody asked me to guess about Oswald, I would have said, well, he probably didn't qualify, just because that was the type of guy he was, but that is all.

Mr. Jenner. You would never have expected him to have been a sharpshooter, for example?

Mr. Thornley. It wouldn't have greatly surprised me if he was and it wouldn't have greatly surprised me if he wasn't. This is something very difficult: to look at a man and tell, at least it is very difficult for me. I have seen some drill instructors who could do it. But to tell whether he is going to be an expert or a sharpshooter, marksman, I am not qualified.

Mr. Jenner. While you were stationed with him at El Toro, did you ever go off base with him?

Mr. Thornley. No.

Mr. Jenner. Did you ever have any discussion of dates?

Mr. Thornley. No.

Mr. Jenner. His attitude toward women?

Mr. Thornley. No.

Mr. Jenner. Sex?

Mr. Thornley. None whatsoever.

Mr. Jenner. Was there any scuttlebutt around the camp in that regard with respect to him?

Mr. Thornley. Not to the best of my knowledge.

Mr. Jenner. Sex habits, propensities?

Mr. Thornley. No; you stand a risk in the Marine Corps, if you are at all quiet and tend to be introverted, of being suspected of being homosexual, but to the best of my knowledge there were never any comments made of this nature.

Mr. Jenner. Do you recall some other readings of his in addition to "1984"?

Mr. Thornley. I do recall having mentioned Dostoievsky to him and I know he had read something and I think it was "Crime and Punishment" but I am not sure. It was something I had not read by Dostoievsky when I had read about, I guess at that time, about three or four books.

Mr. Jenner. It is a great book.

Mr. Thornley. Someday I am going to get around to it.

Mr. Jenner. Have you not read it yet? It is a really great book.

Mr. Thornley. No; and I don't recall him mentioning any other books offhand. I don't—I can't think of a thing besides "1984" and some book by Dostoievsky.

Mr. Jenner. While you were based at El Toro did he engage, did you notice, in any officer baiting on his part with respect, in particular, to such matters as foreign affairs?

Mr. Thornley. Yes; not on foreign affairs, no, but the same officer, Lieutenant Donovan, spoke of in a foreign affairs lecture in the newspapers, I do remember him baiting him on a couple of occasions.

Mr. Jenner. Oswald attempting to bait Lieutenant Donovan?

Mr. Thornley. I don't remember what it was. I know, I believe Lieutenant Donovan was also a lieutenant which I had had a couple of run-ins with if I remember correctly.

If not, it was Lieutenant Delprado. It was one of the two of them. Mine were completely accidental and I went to great length to keep away from one of them because it seemed like any time I was around him I happened to do something to irritate him. But Oswald, I don't recall exactly what he said, but he a couple or three times went out of his way to say something to one of these lieutenants that would cause them to be irritated and in this you can't really say that he was exceptional. It happened many times. In Oswald's case though, it was exceptionally——

Mr. Jenner. You mean it happened many times with respect to other noncoms in the Marines with respect to these officers?

Mr. Thornley. Right; but in Oswald's case it seemed a little more deliberate.106 Some guys would get mad and they would say something, or sometimes they would do something by accident, and they would get themselves involved and then they would decide, "Well, what the hell," and push it all away. Oswald it seemed didn't have to have any reason. He just told an officer to get lost.

Mr. Jenner. He baited an officer for the pleasure of it?

Mr. Thornley. Yes; I might mention that this was one means by which he won the admiration of others in the outfit in that the junior officers especially are usually disliked, or were in that outfit, and this made him on such occasions as he engaged with an officer in some kind of officer baiting, this won the respect, for at least a few minutes, of the men—who would kind of laugh about it, and chuckle over it and tell others about it. Perhaps this is why he did it.

Mr. Jenner. You mentioned some slovenliness on his part; what about his quarters, his barracks; did you have occasion to observe them?

Mr. Thornley. I don't think I was ever in his barracks. I do recall having been told that he had Russian books and that is all I—that is the only connection I can make now in my mind with his quarters. I don't think I ever saw them.

Mr. Jenner. You already have given us something of his view of the U.S. Marine Corps. Would you give us a summary of that? Give us your impression of his views with respect to the U.S. Marine Corps.

Mr. Thornley. Well, definitely the Marine Corps was not what he had expected it to be when he joined. Also he felt that the officers and the staff NCO's at the Marine Corps were incompetent to give him orders.

Mr. Jenner. Incompetent in what sense, they were below him intellectually?

Mr. Thornley. They were below him intellectually—and for various other reasons in each case, too. Maybe this officer was ignorant, as was brought out about foreign affairs, in Oswald's mind, knew less than Oswald did about it. I don't hold with the stand that Oswald would study up on foreign affairs simply in order to bait the officer. I think it just happened to be that Oswald would see that the officer was basing his foreign affairs maybe on Time magazine when Oswald had done a little more reading and I think he resented this Time magazine approach to foreign affairs.

Mr. Jenner. How did these discussions arise, Mr. Thornley, the discussion of foreign affairs by officers?

Mr. Thornley. Well, the officers, every so many weeks—this is mentioned somewhere in this pile of papers—every so many weeks a lieutenant is appointed to give a foreign affairs lecture or a current affairs lecture, pardon me, to the troops, at which time he explains the world situation in a half hour. I remember having one second lieutenant telling us about Dalai Lama or it was a first lieutenant and I forget what he told us, but it was something completely absurd. I think at that time the Dalai Lama had just disappeared or something, and one would get the impression, I think, that he thought the Dalai Lama was a leader in Pakistan or something.

Mr. Jenner. That is the impression the lieutenant tried to convey?

Mr. Thornley. Well, I think that was the impression the lieutenant had had when he had been assigned to give this lecture. The last minute, he got down and started going through the news magazines to get his information, got it somewhat inaccurately, and didn't particularly care whether it was accurate or not anyway. Stood up in front of the troops and reeled off the lecture, and, of course, most of the enlisted men didn't know enough to criticize him either because they weren't that interested, and that was it—with a couple of people laughing up their sleeves, and this happened later, this didn't happen at the time I knew Oswald.

However, in such a situation Oswald would have been careful I am sure to raise his hand and correct the lieutenant.

Mr. Jenner. I was going to get to that. During the course of these lectures did the troops as you called them engage in discussion with the instructor?

Mr. Thornley. They were permitted to ask questions, to raise their hands to ask questions. And Oswald would have probably asked a question which would have made light of the lieutenant's ignorance.

Mr. Jenner. Put the lieutenant at a disadvantage?

Mr. Thornley. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Were you present at any times when you were at El Toro when107 the lectures occurred when, at that time Oswald raised his hand and engaged in dissertation?

Mr. Thornley. I might have been but I don't recall it if I was. I recall being present at several lectures at El Toro, and it just might have happened. It was the kind of thing Oswald would do and it wouldn't even have phased me. I probably wouldn't even have bothered to remember if it had happened. It would have been just part of the daily routine there so I would have——

Mr. Jenner. Did you ever engage in that sort of thing?

Mr. Thornley. No; I never had guts enough to stand up and tell an officer he didn't know what he was talking about. Behind his back I might tell somebody that such-and-such officer didn't know what he was talking about, but I was never quite that brash—in that particular respect, anyway.

Mr. Jenner. What were your impressions on Oswald being interested in music?

Mr. Thornley. Not being interested in music myself particularly——

Mr. Jenner. I take it you had none; that is, any impressions as to his interests?

Mr. Thornley. No, therefore, I had none; correct.

Mr. Jenner. Did you ever play chess with him?

Mr. Thornley. No.

Mr. Jenner. Did you ever see him playing chess with anyone else?

Mr. Thornley. Just now you mentioned the word "chess" as a definite association; I think he did play chess. I can't place the person. This—there were some other people in the outfit who played chess. There is one name I have been trying to remember for a long time, and I think it starts with "Win" something. "Winter" something. I'm probably way off base there. But a tall blond corporal, I believe, played chess and a couple of other men in the outfit played chess. At that time, I guess at that, I knew how to play chess. I have never been particularly interested, though, in the game so I don't—I am pretty sure I didn't play chess with him.

In fact, come to think of it I had just been cured of playing chess 3 months before that; somebody beat me in about six moves and I stopped playing for about a year. It wasn't me.

Mr. Jenner. While at El Toro did Oswald become engaged in any physical altercations with anybody?

Mr. Thornley. No; definitely not to my knowledge. Never got into any fights or even any hot personal argument over anything, that I know of.

Mr. Jenner. What was your impression, if you had one then, as to his disposition in that regard?

Mr. Thornley. I had the impression that he avoided violence.

Mr. Jenner. While you were at El Toro do you recall whether Oswald ever went off the base on liberty?

Mr. Thornley. As far as I know he didn't.

Mr. Jenner. Were there any discussions on the base as to what, if anything, Oswald did?

Mr. Thornley. Not in my presence.

Mr. Jenner. What, if anything, Oswald had done off the base on liberty?

Mr. Thornley. Not in my presence.

Mr. Jenner. Was there ever any discussion of Cuba and Castro and that problem?

Mr. Thornley. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. All right; tell us all about that.

Mr. Thornley. Well, at that time I and Oswald were both, and a couple of other men in the outfit, were quite sure that Castro was a great hero.

Mr. Jenner. Why?

Mr. Thornley. Well, he was liberating Cuba from Batista and, of course, we had heard all about Batista and what an evil man he was, which I am sure was true, and most of us had read some of the things written by Castro, some of Castro's promises—such as he would take no part in the government after the revolution, such things—so we had the definite impression—I remember there was one Puerto Rican boy, myself, Oswald, a couple of others who had quite an admiration for Castro, and thought the pro-Communist statements he was or might be making at the time, were made simply to guarantee a little more independence for his island because it was located so close to the United States.

108 In other words, I felt at the time he was playing both ends against the middle in order to go his own way, something like Charles de Gaulle is doing right now by recognizing Red China. I felt it was purely statesmanship, statecraft, power politics. I didn't feel that Castro was a dedicated Communist. Whether Oswald did or not I don't know. He admired Castro because of the social reforms Castro was introducing. So did I at that time.

Delgado, the Puerto Rican boy, as I recall it, was becoming worried at that time because he was beginning to think maybe Castro was communistic. I didn't think so. Oswald, as far as I know, didn't have anything to say on that matter. And that is about all I can tell you.

Mr. Jenner. Well, you say that you admired Castro and you knew Oswald admired Castro. Tell us on what you base that comment.

Mr. Thornley. Well, once again as I remember, there was one of these afternoon discussions once again, and somebody was saying something, worried about Castro, it might have been Delgado, it might have been somebody else, I don't think it was Delgado that day because I think he was defending Castro, somebody said something against Castro, and Oswald said that he didn't think Castro was so bad.

He thought Castro was good for Cuba, and they said why, and I took up the argument, which was the argument I just gave you, the naive idea I had at the time that he was playing for independence, and Oswald remained silent, shaking his head affirmatively a couple of times, and that was it.

Mr. Jenner. Shaking his head affirmatively with respect to the comments you were making?

Mr. Thornley. Yes; to my argument, to my justification of Castro.

Mr. Jenner. But you recall no provocative remarks that he made in that connection?

Mr. Thornley. No.

Mr. Jenner. Did Oswald have a nickname?

Mr. Thornley. Not that I know of except Oz sometimes.

Mr. Jenner. Did you ever hear him referred to as "Ozzie Rabbit"?

Mr. Thornley. Well, yes; I didn't realize that anybody else referred to him as such but I always thought of him as such. He reminded me very much of a cartoon character at that time. It was kind of pathetic. There was something about this little smile of his, and his expression on his face and the shape of his head, just the general, his general appearance established a definite association in my mind with some Warner Bros. cartoon character, I believe Warner Bros. And I, very recently, in a discussion with someone, describing Oswald mentioned that he reminded you of—I said: "I think there is a character called Oswald Rabbit who appears in movie cartoons." And they shook their head.

Now, I know where I got that particular example so I probably heard him referred to as "Ozzie Rabbit," though I don't recall specifically.

Mr. Jenner. Did he occasionally have a nickname or a reference made to him attendant upon his interest in the study of the Russian language or his interest in communism or in Russia or Soviet——

Mr. Thornley. Only he was sometimes called the Communist and he would, sometimes I know—as far as his study of the Russian language went he made no attempt to hide this.

In fact, he made—would make attempts to show it off by speaking a little Russian.

Mr. Jenner. He was proud of that, was he?

Mr. Thornley. Yes; there was someone else in the outfit who spoke Russian, don't ask me who, they used to exchange a few comments in the morning at muster and say hello to each other or something, and he also would make jokes in Russian, not in Russian, but in English, in a thick Russian accent many times; this was very typical of him.

Mr. Jenner. He resorted to that area and use of satire?

Mr. Thornley. Yes; until I had made the comment that implied he was a Communist, I had no idea——

Mr. Jenner. That he was sensitive?

Mr. Thornley. That he was sensitive about it because he didn't seem to be.

109 Mr. Jenner. Did he have any visitors?

Mr. Thornley. Not that I recall.

Mr. Jenner. Was there any discussion at anytime about the possibility of his going to Russia?

Mr. Thornley. No.

Mr. Jenner. This was a complete surprise to you when you saw it in Stars and Stripes?

Mr. Thornley. Somebody would say to him, "Why don't you go and live in Russia," in the middle of an argument.

Mr. Jenner. I didn't mean that in that sense but did he volunteer a statement on his part about his going to Russia?

Mr. Thornley. Never anything; no.

Mr. Jenner. I take it it was your opinion he was not a Communist at the time he was assigned to El Toro?

Mr. Thornley. That was my opinion.

Mr. Jenner. I take it you have never seen or talked with Oswald subsequent to the time he left or you left for Japan, from El Toro?

Mr. Thornley. No.

Mr. Jenner. That is, my statement is correct.

Mr. Thornley. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. It follows, I take it, that you were never aware that he was in New Orleans when you were there?

Mr. Thornley. No; I wasn't.

Mr. Jenner. You were not aware of his comings and goings other than the newspaper report that your folks sent you?

Mr. Thornley. I was aware that he had come back from the Soviet Union and gone to Dallas, and I know I at that time did think about going to see him in Dallas for the book, to find out just why he did go to Russia, to check it with my own theory.

Mr. Jenner. I am going to get to that in due course.

Mr. Thornley. But aside from knowing that he came back and went to live in Dallas with a Russian wife and a child I had no idea of his comings or goings.

Mr. Jenner. At the time you had some notion of going to Dallas to see him or Fort Worth, as the case might be, it was with respect to the book you have talked about you were then in the process of writing or fulminating about?

Mr. Thornley. Yes; it was practically—well, it was finished by that time but I was thinking about, I was definitely planning to rewrite it. I didn't know how soon, and I thought before I did rewrite it I would go talk to him and see what he could tell me about. There were a lot of gaps in the book, and in the book I was not able to explain how he got from the United States to Russia and things like that. A lot of things I wanted to check out and I thought if I could get him to cooperate with me, perhaps not even in telling him I was writing the book, I could get the information I wanted.

Mr. Jenner. And this was the state of mind you had after you had heard that he returned to the United States?

Mr. Thornley. Right.

Mr. Jenner. Which was June of 1962, when he returned?

Mr. Thornley. Right, and I had finished the book in February.

Mr. Jenner. Of 1963?

Mr. Thornley. 1962.

Mr. Jenner. 1962. You were in Mexico and Mexico City in 1963?

Mr. Thornley. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Cover that for us. What was the motivation, the length of the trip?

Mr. Thornley. I will have to begin at the beginning on that. On April 17, my parents sent me a gift of $100 on the condition that I spend it for a bus ticket to visit them that summer. Which I did, and I left around—well, I arrived in California on May 5. I remember going along the border and seeing fireworks on the other side of the border.

Mr. Jenner. What border?

Mr. Thornley. From Yuma to San Diego.

110 Mr. Jenner. Mexican border?

Mr. Thornley. That is Cinco De Mayo. I arrived in California on May 5 and I stayed there until late August. Now, I think in one of these reports that I gave to the FBI the information might be different. Since then I have checked with notebooks that I kept of my activity, and I was on my way back to New Orleans in late August. I went by way of Mexico City because I have taken 5 years of Spanish in school and I never had the opportunity to live in an environment where I would have to use it, depend on it solely, and I wanted to see how I would do. I have always wanted to visit Mexico, to see Mexico City. I checked into the prices. I had found out I had enough money that I would be able to go down to Mexico City and stay a short while.

So I went down there for about a week, actually it was 6 days I spent within Mexico, from Tijuana to Mexico City, on a Mexican bus, and then when my money began to run out from Mexico City to Matamoros or Brownsville, Tex., on a Mexican bus.

At this time, on my way up on a bus to Matamoros, it was September 2, because I had that in my notes, I have some notes about the bus ride and the date September 2.

And I went from Brownsville to New Orleans by way of either Greyhound or Continental.

Mr. Jenner. When did you arrive in New Orleans?

Mr. Thornley. I went directly to New Orleans, so I imagine I arrived in New Orleans on September 3, possibly September 4.

Mr. Jenner. So that between approximately May 1, 1963, and September 4 and 5——

Mr. Thornley. Say May 3 to September 4.

Mr. Jenner. You were not in New Orleans?

Mr. Thornley. Right.

Mr. Jenner. You were returning to your home in California? You stayed there for approximately a month or so?

Mr. Thornley. Longer than that.

Mr. Jenner. Longer than that. You then went to Mexico, Mexico City, and you then returned directly to New Orleans?

Mr. Thornley. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. During none of that period of time did you have any contact with or hear anything about Oswald?

Mr. Thornley. Definitely not.

Mr. Jenner. You at one time at least were acquainted with a lady by the name of Sylvia Bortin?

Mr. Thornley. Sylvia Bortin?

Mr. Jenner. B-o-r-t-i-n.

Mr. Thornley. Yes; this young lady, by the way——

Mr. Jenner. Where did she reside?

Mr. Thornley. In Whittier, Calif., or at least last summer she did, I don't know where she resides now. This young lady, by the way, was mentioned in—her mention in this whole matter came out of a misunderstanding on my part of a question asked by the FBI agents.

Mr. Jenner. All right. Would you explain that, please?

Mr. Thornley. I don't recall what the question was—oh, yes, he had asked me something about, I believe it was the First Unitarian Church in Los Angeles. I had mentioned earlier at the time I was talking to Oswald, and knew Oswald, I had been going to the First Unitarian Church in Los Angeles. This is a group of quite far to the left people politically for the most part, and mentioned in order to explain my political relationship with Oswald, at that moment, and he began to ask me questions about the First Unitarian Church and I answered, and then he realized or understood or asked what Oswald's connection with the First Unitarian Church was and I explained to him that there was none. Miss Bortin never knew Oswald and vice versa, and these people were two different parts of my life. There was this civilian compartment and the military compartment, and I never intermingled them.

Mr. Jenner. This young lady married and her husband is now in Havana, Cuba?

111 Mr. Thornley. That is what she told me last summer; yes. He was going to school in Cuba.

Mr. Jenner. I take it this had nothing to do with yourself and Oswald's views with respect to Castro that you told us about.

Mr. Thornley. No; this happened, I think, later, in fact I am sure it happened later. At that time Miss Bortin, she was then unmarried, did not know Robert Uname, I believe. I met him, I believe, September a year later.

Mr. Jenner. Had you finished that?

Mr. Thornley. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. I take it that Oswald had no close personal friends at least that you observed?

Mr. Thornley. That is correct. And the name of his closest friends I do not know. I do remember he had a close acquaintance that he seemed to get along with pretty well.

Mr. Jenner. In the unit?

Mr. Thornley. Yes; but I don't recall this man's name. If it was mentioned to me, I probably could, but——

Mr. Jenner. You were groping for it when you were interviewed. You suggested it might be Charles——

Mr. Thornley. I mentioned a Charles.

Mr. Jenner. Weis.

Mr. Thornley. Weir, but that was not the man. This was a friend of a friend of the friend or a man who could give them that information perhaps that I couldn't.

At this time perhaps, also, I was thinking of a possibility it might have been Weir and since then I have remembered definitely who Weir was.

Mr. Jenner. Who was he?

Mr. Thornley. I don't remember whether his first name was Charles but I remember who he was.

Mr. Jenner. He was a noncom?

Mr. Thornley. There was a man named Cooley. There was somebody else, and these are my associations, but who it was who used to talk Russian in the ranks with Oswald in the morning I don't know, but that is who it was.

Mr. Jenner. Is this particular man you now mentioned the man who occasionally talked Russian with Oswald in the ranks, is he the man who you had in mind?

Mr. Thornley. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. As having been a friend of Oswald's?

Mr. Thornley. Yes; in that in the same respect that I was a friend of Oswald's. Once, again, the exact terminology I would use would be close acquaintance.

Mr. Jenner. Yes; I would say from your description of the relationship with Oswald that it was more an acquaintanceship than a friendship.

Mr. Thornley. I think it was probably the same with this person from what I recall, to my knowledge.

Mr. Jenner. In other words, when you say friend, he wasn't a buddy of Oswald?

Mr. Thornley. No; Oswald was not the type of person who had, as it has been emphasized on all parts, I think, and it confirms my own impression, was not the type of person who made close friends or who stuck with close friends.

Mr. Jenner. You saw no instance in which Oswald evidenced affection for anybody, I mean in the nice sense of the word?

Mr. Thornley. No; none whatsoever.

Mr. Jenner. Or anybody evidenced any affection in the nice sense of the word for him?

Mr. Thornley. No.

Mr. Jenner. I take it your trip to Mexico City was purely one of general interest as you have described and had nothing to do with any interest on your part in going to Cuba or attempting to go to Cuba?

Mr. Thornley. Believe me, no. I have no desire to go to Cuba unless I am going to take a rifle and be on an invasion force or something.

Mr. Jenner. Did you hear of anybody in the Marine Corps, whose last name was Hidell?

112 Mr. Thornley. At the time this name was mentioned to me that was—that person, whoever it was that Oswald used to speak to in the ranks in the morning came to my mind. But I can't say that that was the name, and I am—of course, now, I am very leery that that—very uncertain as to ever having heard the name Hidell, and I doubt it very much.

Mr. Jenner. Shortly after the unfortunate occurrence of November 22, 1963, you were interviewed by Secret Service agents, were you not?

Mr. Thornley. Yes. Now, this is what I had mentioned earlier. This was the Monday interview, of November 25, actually it was midnight Sunday night as I recall. It seemed to me a couple of days later before I spoke to the FBI. I believe there was a Mr. Rice—was one of the men.

Mr. Jenner. This was the evening of the 23d of November?

Mr. Thornley. Was it the 23d?

Mr. Jenner. It probably ran over.

Mr. Thornley. It must have been Saturday evening then. I had thought it was Sunday evening.

Mr. Jenner. In any event you were then interviewed by some newspaper reporters?

Mr. Thornley. Yes; that was quite some time afterward.

Mr. Jenner. Well, it was before November 27, 1963, was it not?

Mr. Thornley. It was after the 25th, I think. It was after I had finished talking to the FBI, as I remember.

Mr. Jenner. I will mark as Thornley's Exhibit No. 1 what purports to be a Xerox reprint of a newspaper article.

(The document referred to was marked Thornley Exhibit No. 1 for identification.)

Mr. Jenner. Are you acquainted with that?

Mr. Thornley. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. What newspaper was this from?

Mr. Thornley. The States-Item of New Orleans.

Mr. Jenner. And that article was a result of the newspaperman's interview with you?

Mr. Thornley. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Did you see it upon its publication?

Mr. Thornley. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. You are familiar with it?

Mr. Thornley. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Does it substantially accurately reflect at least portions of, in reasonable context, the interview you had with the newspaper reporter?

Mr. Thornley. Yes; to a surprising degree for a newspaper, on the basis of my past experience in dealings with them.

Mr. Jenner. Is there anything in that article that you regard as reasonably seriously erroneous?

Mr. Thornley. Not when I read it the last time.

Mr. Jenner. Insofar as it attributes anything to you?

Mr. Thornley. May I reread it?

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mr. Thornley. I would say this is accurate in everything it attributes to me.

Mr. Jenner. All right. I offer Thornley Exhibit No. 1 in evidence.

Now, it appears from that article and from the testimony you have given this morning that you were stimulated, or, as you have indicated you prepared at least a first draft of a book or pamphlet or article respecting your experiences in the Marine Corps, and one of the central characters of which, mythical or otherwise, was a friend, Oswald.

Mr. Thornley. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. And when I spoke to you by telephone the other day I inquired of you as to whether that was still in existence and you responded that it was.

Mr. Thornley. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And you were kind enough to say you would bring it with you.

Mr. Thornley. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Have you done so?

Mr. Thornley. Yes.

113 Mr. Jenner. May I see it, please?

Mr. Thornley. Yes, sir; here is the draft completed in February of 1962.

Mr. Jenner. Yes; I am interested in seeing that in its condition as of that time.

Mr. Thornley. Right. That is it. There is only one addition and there is some blank paper on top. There is one addition, and that is the short preface written yesterday to give some idea of how much was fact and how much was fiction.

Mr. Jenner. All right—the page numbered 2?

Mr. Thornley. There was a table of contents once and it took two pages.

Mr. Jenner. Which I might identify in addition thereto as having the word "Preface," at its top and your name and the date May 17, 1964, Arlington, Va., at the bottom. That is what you prepared yesterday, is that correct?

Mr. Thornley. Correct.

Mr. Jenner. All of the balance, therefore, commencing with the pages numbered 3 and running through, I assume, consecutively?

Mr. Thornley. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. To page 250 is the article as it was when you completed it in February 1962?

Mr. Thornley. Precisely.

Mr. Jenner. I would like the opportunity of reading through this and, of course, 200-odd pages, we don't have the time to do it as of the moment, and the Commission would like to have it among its records. May I have the material and I will take it in the back room. We have a Xerox, and have it duplicated? This, I appreciate, is your personal property and it is of value. It is not something that the Commission will place in the hands of others who may make commercial use of it.

Mr. Thornley. I am quite sure that it will be perfectly safe.

Mr. Jenner. All right. It is in the same condition now, that is, pages 3 through 250, as those pages were when you completed this manuscript in February 1962?

Mr. Thornley. Yes; there might have been a couple of spelling errors corrected since then or typographical errors but that is all.

Mr. Jenner. And that article of which we now speak and which for purposes of identification I will mark as Thornley Exhibit No. 2, and I offer Thornley Exhibit No. 2 in evidence.

(The document referred to was marked Thornley Exhibit No. 2 for identification.)

Mr. Jenner. Subsequently thereto, I understand from my conversation with you, you prepared a revision of that paper.

Mr. Thornley. I have been working on a revision.

Mr. Jenner. And you were kind enough to say you would bring that along with you as well. Have you done so?

Mr. Thornley. I have been between this draft——

Mr. Jenner. When you said "this draft" you are referring to Thornley Exhibit No. 2?

Mr. Thornley. Exhibit No. 2, and the draft I am now giving you—several illegible drafts were made. This represents not the latest draft, but the latest typewritten draft. It represents a fragment of it.

The first third, almost the first third, minus a couple of pages of a novelette based upon this Exhibit No. 2.

Mr. Jenner. For purposes of identification the witness has now handed me a set of letter-sized pages numbered 1 through 37, consecutively.

Are they consecutive?

Mr. Thornley. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And I take it, as against the length of the other paper, that these pages 1 through 37, represent an incomplete novel.

Mr. Thornley. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. That is it covers only a portion of the areas and times covered by Thornley Exhibit No. 2.

Mr. Thornley. This ones takes a completely different approach in that this did not take a chronological approach to the development of the character based on Oswald, but takes a flashback approach.

114 Mr. Jenner. I see.

Mr. Thornley. Centering around an investigation of that character after his defection to the Soviet Union.

Mr. Jenner. For further identification of the document which I will mark Thornley Exhibit No. 3, page 1 is entitled "Chapter 1, Gung Ho."

Page 4 is entitled "Chapter 2, Fallen Comrade."

Page 7, in the center, is entitled "Chapter 3, Hush Hush."

Page 11 is entitled "Chapter 4, Blue Marines."

Page 14, in the upper portion, is entitled "Chapter 5, Peace Gospel."

Page 21 is entitled, at the head, "Chapter 7, The Killer."

Page 24, near the center, is entitled "Chapter 8, Captain Kidd."

Page 27, at the bottom, "Chapter 9, Mutiny."

Page 31, "Chapter 10, John Henry."

Page 34, "Chapter 11, The Storms."

And page 37, "Chapter 12, The Chicken."

(The document referred to was marked Thornley Exhibit No. 3 for identification.)

Mr. Thornley. Now, this Exhibit No. 3 is a much greater fictionalized approach toward, well, as far as reference goes to Oswald, the character upon—the character which is based upon Oswald in Exhibit No. 2, Johnny Shellburn, Exhibit No. 3 is much farther from life.

Mr. Jenner. Is Johnny Shellburn assimilated to Oswald?

Mr. Thornley. Yes; much more so in Exhibit No. 2, though, than in this one.

Mr. Jenner. That is Exhibit No. 3.

Mr. Thornley. Yes; since I wrote Exhibit No. 2, I have learned to write fiction rather than a thinly disguised biography.

Mr. Jenner. In other words, Exhibit No. 2 was primarily a biography?

Mr. Thornley. Not in the strict sense that it portrayed a man's life in detail, but in the sense that any reference, most of the references, as is explained in this preface toward the end of the book——

Mr. Jenner. When you say this preface, you mean the preface to Exhibit No. 2?

Mr. Thornley. That is, Johnny Shellburn toward the end of the book, well, from before the middle of the book on, extends more and more to reflect Oswald's character, and I definitely was thinking about Lee Harvey Oswald when I wrote this book, Exhibit No. 2, whereas——

Mr. Jenner. In your discussion refer to them by exhibit number.

Mr. Thornley. I will keep my hands below the table.

Mr. Jenner. You don't have to do that. Just use the exhibit numbers.

Mr. Thornley. Whereas in Exhibit No. 3, I have universalized it more, tried to get away from giving any impression that I am making a chronology of the life and times of Lee Harvey Oswald, which is something I thought would be relevant as far as the Commission would be concerned in reading the material.

Mr. Jenner. Would you mark Exhibit No. 3 accordingly, Mr. Reporter?

I offer in evidence Thornley Exhibit No. 3. I take it, Mr. Thornley, that you commenced the preparation of Exhibit No. 3 subsequently to the assassination of President John Fitzgerald Kennedy.

Mr. Thornley. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And that Exhibit No. 3 reflects a course of events and their imprint upon you that occurred on and after November 22, 1963.

Mr. Thornley. No, no; Exhibit No. 3 reflects the same course of events reflected in Exhibit No. 2. As far as the telling of the story goes and the characters therein it takes place back in 1959. It makes a definite attempt, however, to get away from Oswald as a specific character and to discuss the problem of disillusionment in the peacetime military or disillusionment with values on a much more universalized range than Exhibit No. 2.

Mr. Jenner. All right. May I make a copy of Exhibit No. 3?

Mr. Thornley. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Under the same circumstances and upon the same conditions as you granted your consent to make a copy of Exhibit No. 2?

Mr. Thornley. Yes, sir; Exhibit No. 3 also does include some things on—that I have acquired through the news on Oswald since the assassination because115 Oswald tends to reflect the type of person I was talking about. So to put it, to make it as clear as possible, right now I realize I am saying Exhibit No. 3 is more like Oswald and less like Oswald, to put it as clearly as possible.

Mr. Jenner. You are going in two directions at once.

Mr. Thornley. Exhibit No. 2 is more like the Oswald I knew in MACS 9, the Oswald of my experience, whereas Exhibit No. 3 is a universalized Oswaldian-type character based upon not only my own experience but the news that has come to me about Oswald, about other people like Oswald, other defectors, other assassins, and so on and so forth, since November 22.

Mr. Jenner. All right. Now, Mr. Thornley, tell me something about Kerry Thornley. You obviously, to me, are not a doorman.

Mr. Thornley. Oh, yes; I am a doorman.

Mr. Jenner. You are at the moment performing that service. But that isn't your objective in life.

Mr. Thornley. My objective is to write books, novels primarily, as many as I can in the years that are given to me, and possibly upon publication of one of them to go back to school to further my ability to write.

Mr. Jenner. Are you taking any training in that respect or have you in recent years?

Mr. Thornley. Well, not formally. I have devoted myself to a lot of exercises in writing, and I have availed myself of the help of any experts I could grab onto, including successful novelists and former newspaper reporters and so on and so forth, to help me solve problems in my writing and improve it, but there is really, to my mind, my outlook on writing a novel; for example, there is not much you can learn from a formal course in writing. I think you can learn much more from, say, the study of linguistics or semantics; if you are going to learn anything from a university, for example, on writing, and this I intend to do in due time.

Mr. Jenner. We occasionally have been off the record, not often, and I have talked with you on the telephone. Is there anything that was said between us in the course of our telephone conversations or in any off-the-record discussions that you think is pertinent to the Commission's assignment of investigating the assassination of President Kennedy that I have failed to bring onto the record?

Mr. Thornley. No, sir; I think we have very thoroughly covered it.

Mr. Jenner. Is there anything that occurs to you that you would like to add that you think might be pertinent to our inquiry and of help to the Commission?

Mr. Thornley. No; there is certainly nothing else I can think of.

Mr. Jenner. Your deposition will be written up rather promptly. We probably will have it tomorrow, and would you be good enough to call me, say—when do you go on duty?

Mr. Thornley. At 5 o'clock.

Mr. Jenner. Call me in the forenoon—I mean right after lunch—and if it is convenient will you come in and read over your deposition and sign it?

Mr. Thornley. All right. May I just, to make absolutely sure, may I take down your phone number once more?


AFFIDAVIT OF GEORGE B. CHURCH, JR.

The following affidavit was executed by George B. Church, Jr. on June 27, 1964.

AFFIDAVIT

PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION
ON THE ASSASSINATION OF
PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY

State of Florida,
County of Hillsborough, ss:

I, George B. Church, Jr., 2427 Sunset Drive, Tampa 9, Florida, being duly sworn say:

116 1. I am a retired Lieutenant Colonel in the United States Army and am now a Junior High School teacher in Tampa. I am attending the University of Florida this summer.

2. My wife and I travelled to Europe on the S.S. Marion Lykes which departed New Orleans, Louisiana for LeHavre, France, on or about September 20, 1959. This vessel was a freighter with accommodations for 12 passengers assigned two to a room. On this particular trip, there were but four passengers aboard. One of them was Lee Harvey Oswald, who shared a state room with an individual named Billy Joe Lord. The trip from New Orleans, Louisiana, terminated at LeHavre, France. The entire trip was approximately 16 days.

3. Before this trip, I had never before seen nor heard of Lee Harvey Oswald.

4. All of the passengers ate at one table; however, Lee Harvey Oswald missed quite a few meals because he was seasick much of the time. Furthermore, there was no fixed schedule for meals. When we did have meals with Oswald, he sat cater-cornered from me. However, Oswald was rather withdrawn, and thus I did not converse with him a great deal. Oswald did state during our discussion of our destinations, that he was going to attend a university in Switzerland. Oswald did not give the name of the university and did not indicate that he had a clear cut schedule as to his course of study.

5. I recall having discussed with Oswald the Depression of the 1930's. Oswald appeared quite bitter as to the hard time his mother had suffered during this period. I tried to point out to Oswald that I had lived through and survived the Depression and that millions of people in the United States also had suffered during those years. This, however, made no impression on Oswald.

6. Oswald spent much of the time by himself. He did not participate in any of the social activities, nor in any conversation. He did mention his service in the Marine Corps, and he stated that he did not like the military service. Generally Oswald was not friendly, and he did not make much of an impression on me since I was not particularly interested in him.

7. The ship had a receiver in the ward room which was off and on during the voyage. I did listen to it occasionally, and I did understand German. I do not know if Oswald listened to the receiver or not, and I have no idea as to his knowledge of any foreign language.

8. Oswald did not indicate that he was going to go to Russia.

9. After the trip I never saw nor heard from Lee Harvey Oswald again.

Signed this 27th day of June 1964.

(S)George B. Church, Jr.,
George B. Church, Jr.

AFFIDAVIT OF MRS. GEORGE B. CHURCH, JR.

The following affidavit was executed by Mrs. George B. Church, Jr., on June 27, 1964.

AFFIDAVIT

PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION
ON THE ASSASSINATION OF
PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY

State of Florida,
County of Hillsborough, ss:

I, Mrs. George B. Church, Jr., being duly sworn say:

1. I live at 2427 Sunset Drive, Tampa 9, Florida. I travelled to Europe on the S.S. Marion Lykes which departed New Orleans, Louisiana for LeHavre, France, on or about September 20, 1959.

2. I recall that besides my husband, there were two other passengers: Lee Harvey Oswald and Bill Lord. My husband and I sat at the same table with Oswald for meals, but outside of meals, we did not have much contact with him. While I had endeavored to get acquainted with Lee Harvey Oswald, he did not enter into friendly conversation. He stayed to himself, and I considered him peculiar.

3. Oswald indicated that the purpose of the trip was to attend a university117 in Switzerland, but he evaded giving the name of the university and, he did not indicate any clear cut or positive courses of study other than a statement to the effect that he might study philosophy or psychology. His attitude seemed to be one of resentment. His roommate, Bill Lord, was going to attend a university in France and was studying French during the trip. Lord was quite exuberant about his course of study and purpose of life, in contrast to the attitude of Lee Harvey Oswald.

4. I do not recall Oswald doing any reading. However, I gave him a book which he never returned.

5. Upon completion of the voyage aboard the S.S. Marion Lykes, I obtained the address of Bill Lord for the purpose of perhaps later writing him or sending him Christmas cards. I also requested Oswald's address and he questioned the purpose of my request. He later reluctantly furnished his home address as, C/O Mrs. M. Oswald, 3124 West Fifth Street, Fort Worth, Texas. I wrote this in my address book.

6. At no time did Lee Harvey Oswald indicate that he was actually planning or attempting to defect or go to Russia. There was no indication that Oswald had any Communist leanings.

I did notice that Oswald spoke with the Chief Engineer who was then aboard the S.S. Marion Lykes. The Chief Engineer indicated to me that he felt that Oswald was a smart boy.

7. This was the last I ever saw or heard from Lee Harvey Oswald.

Signed this 27th day of June 1964.

(S)Mrs. George B. Church, Jr.,
Mrs. George B. Church, Jr.

AFFIDAVIT OF BILLY JOE LORD

The following affidavit was executed by Billy Joe Lord on June 26, 1964.

AFFIDAVIT

PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION
ON THE ASSASSINATION OF
PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY

State of Texas,
County of Travis, ss:

I, Billy Joe Lord, being duly sworn say:

1. I am an Airman Third Class in the United States Air Force, and I am in the 340th Bomb Wing, Combat Defense Squadron at Bergstrom Air Force Base, Texas. I am 22 years old and my parents live at Midland, Texas.

2. After graduating from Midland High School in 1959, with the financial assistance of my parents, I made plans to continue my education in France. During August, 1959, I made an application for a passport, and on or about September 15, 1959, I departed Midland, Texas via train for New Orleans, Louisiana, arriving there about September 17, 1959. I spent the next three days touring the city of New Orleans and making several trips to the ticket office of the Lykes Lines. The cost of passage aboard the ship S.S. Marion Lykes amounted to slightly more than $200. I registered and stayed in the LaSalle Hotel on Canal Street, which was near the city library. I visited the library several times during this stay in the city. During this period I did not know Lee Harvey Oswald.

3. On September 20, 1959, I boarded the freighter S.S. Marion Lykes at New Orleans. Upon boarding the ship, I was shown to my room, and when I got there, Lee Harvey Oswald was already there and moving in. We were to share this room. I had never before seen nor heard of Lee Harvey Oswald. Lee Harvey Oswald and I shared this cabin for the duration of the trip to France which was fourteen days.

4. In our first conversation, Oswald said that he was recently discharged from the Marines and that he had worked in some technical field while in the Marines. He indicated that he was somewhat bitter about the fact that his mother had to118 work in a drugstore in Fort Worth, Texas, and was having a difficult time. He also said that he would probably return to the United States to work. He gave no indication of his ultimate destination, although he said he was going to travel around in Europe and possibly attend school in Switzerland if he had sufficient funds. Also in this first conversation, we discussed religion. I do not know why we discussed religion except that possibly he noticed that I had a bible. Oswald maintained that he could not see how I could believe in God in view of the fact that science had disproved the existence of God, and that there was only matter.

5. After the first day, I hardly conversed with Oswald at all. Oswald was not outgoing and neither was I. We just were not very friendly.

6. Besides Oswald and myself, there were two other passengers aboard the ship. They were a retired U.S. Army Colonel and his wife, Colonel and Mrs. George B. Church, Jr. All four of the passengers generally ate their meals together in the ships officer's mess. Oswald ate most of his meals with us. I do not recall Colonel Church and his wife associating very much with Lee Harvey Oswald.

7. I shared a closet with Oswald, but I did not notice anything out of the ordinary among Oswald's possessions. He did show me either his military identification card or his passport.

8. Oswald did not indicate that he might defect to Russia. To the best of my knowledge, Oswald did not receive any correspondence or communications while aboard the ship, nor did he associate with any of the ship's crew. Oswald never mentioned any contacts or friends in Europe.

9. Lee Harvey Oswald appeared to be a normal, healthy individual, mentally alert, but extremely cynical in his general attitude.

On October 5, 1959, our ship arrived in France, and I disembarked from the ship. I never saw or heard from him again. It is my recollection that he departed from the ship subsequent to my departure. I had written my mother about all the passengers. When Oswald defected, she sent me a newspaper clipping about it.

10. Oswald spent a great deal of his time during the trip on the deck. I do not recall him doing any reading. I do recall, however, that there was a radio speaker which received programs from Europe and that Oswald and Colonel Church seemed to understand a little bit of the foreign language that came over on the speaker. I thought it was German, but I am not sure.

11. I attended the Institute of French Studies at the City of Tours, Province of Touraine, France, from October, 1959 to February, 1962 intermittently while auditing courses at the University of Poitires, Tours, France, and at the Sorbonne, University of Paris, France. I returned to the United States aboard the French ship, Liberty, in June, 1960. I went to France again in February of 1961 for further education, and returned to the United States in February of 1962.

Signed this 26th day of June 1964.

(S)Billy Joe Lord,
Billy Joe Lord.

AFFIDAVIT OF ALEXANDER KLEINLERER

The following affidavit was executed by Alexander Kleinlerer on June 16, 1964.

AFFIDAVIT

PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION
ON THE ASSASSINATION OF
PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY

State of Texas,
County of Tarrant, ss:

Alexander Kleinlerer of 3542 Kent Street, Fort Worth, Texas, being duly sworn, says:

1. My name is Alexander Kleinlerer and I do now reside and for several years last pass have resided at the above address.

119 2. I am and have for several years been a foreign representative of Loma Industries, a plastics production company, located at 3000 West Pafford Street, Fort Worth, Texas. I am 41 years of age and single. I was born in Poland of Polish parents both of whom died in German concentration camps during World War II. During the War I lost all members of my family, not only my immediate family, but my relatives as well, other than a sister in Paris, France who is still alive and a cousin who once resided in Russia but who now lives in Poland. The area in Poland in which I and my family and relatives resided was overrun by the German Army. I was confined in Buchenwald concentration camp until 1945 when I was liberated by General Patton's forces. I immediately moved to Czechoslovakia and then to France. In May of 1956, I journeyed from France to the United States and found employment with Loma Industries. I returned to France as a foreign representative for that company in November of 1957 and remained there until June of 1961 when I returned to the United States. In due course thereafter I became a naturalized citizen of the United States in May 1963.

3. I speak a number of European languages well. As a result I have become acquainted with numerous foreign language speaking individuals in the Fort Worth-Dallas area. These include, insofar as the Oswald incident is concerned, Anna Meller, George Bouhe, Mr. and Mrs. George deMohrenschildt, Mr. and Mrs. Max Clark, Mrs. Elena Hall, Lydia Dymitruk, Mr. and Mrs. Declan P. Ford and Mr. and Mrs. Igor Vladimir Voshinin.

4. During 1962, I was enamoured of and was courting Mrs. Elena Hall who was then divorced from her husband John. I first become acquainted with Lee Harvey and Marina Oswald on a Sunday morning in the fore part of September 1962. I was working in Mrs. Hall's garage at 4760 Trail Lake Drive, Fort Worth, Texas, building wooden baffles for stereo speakers. George Bouhe, a valued friend of mine, drove up in his automobile accompanied by Oswald, Marina and their infant child. I was introduced to Oswald and to Marina. Oswald somewhat stiffly acknowledged the introduction but was laconic and uncommunicative thereafter. They had come to inquire of Mrs. Hall about dental problems of Marina's. I have a fairly distinct recollection that Mrs. Anna Meller also accompanied the group on this occasion. Mrs. Hall is a dental technician employed by the Patterson Dental Laboratory in Fort Worth. The group was seeking Mrs. Hall's help as to where a low cost dentist or clinic could be found where they might take Marina for dental care, having in mind that the Oswalds were in straitened financial circumstances. I do not recall what the result of this conversation was in that connection as I did not accompany the group when they went into Mrs. Hall's home.

5. Thereafter during September, while the Oswalds still resided on Mercedes Street near the Montgomery Ward store, I visited there with Mrs. Hall on two occasions. The reason for the earliest of these additional occasions was that Mrs. Hall and George Bouhe had asked me to inquire among the girls in my office for dresses and other wearing apparel for Marina. I collected some sweaters, skirts and a dress or two. Mrs. Hall also inquired among her friends and collected some things. We put these together in one package and Mrs. Hall and I drove to the Oswald apartment on Mercedes Street to deliver the package. We were shocked to find that the Oswald child had no baby crib or bed but was kept on the floor in the bedroom either in a suitcase or between two suitcases.

6. Within a few days we returned to the Oswalds with a baby bed that Mrs. Hall had obtained from some friend. We purchased a mattress for the baby bed and delivered these items to the Oswalds at the Mercedes Street apartment.

7. There was another occasion when I was at the Mercedes Street apartment. George Bouhe had called me and asked me to meet him there. This had nothing to do with the Oswalds. George Bouhe and I are good friends and he was calling to say that he was going to be in Fort Worth at the Oswalds and asked me to drop by so we could have a friendly visit. On this occasion I saw the Oswalds briefly. I recall that Anna Meller came with George Bouhe and there was an older lady whose name I do not now recall. I remember that Oswald and Marina were seated at the dining table eating. We were sitting there talking with Mr. George Bouhe when suddenly Oswald noticed there was no butter on the table. He rose red faced and angry and in our presence rudely and in a domineering and overbearing manner, and as though Marina was a120 mere chattel, proceeded to vigourously reprimand her. It was like a sergeant bullying a new recruit. We were all embarrassed and shocked.

8. Mrs. Hall was injured in an automobile accident in Fort Worth the evening of October 18, 1962. Marina and the child were residing in Mrs. Hall's home at this time. They had come to Mrs. Hall's home earlier in the month because Oswald had, we understood, lost his job and it had been agreed among Mrs. Hall, George Bouhe and the others that Oswald would go to Dallas to seek employment and Marina would stay with Mrs. Hall. Mrs. Hall was released from the hospital in the latter part of October, I think around October 26th. She spent a few days at home and on October 30, 1962, a date which I have checked from a receipt that I have, she left Fort Worth for Garden City, New York, to visit with friends. While away on this trip she was reunited with and remarried her former husband John Hall. My recollection is that they returned to Fort Worth about the 11th or 12th of November 1962, and in any event by the 15th. While Mrs. Hall was in the hospital and while she was visiting in New York, I frequently called at the Hall home during my lunch period (usually about 1:00 p.m.), at the request of Mrs. Hall, to inquire of Marina's needs and her welfare and to see that matters about the house were all right. I reported regularly to Mrs. Hall what my impressions were.

9. During the periods Mrs. Hall was in the hospital and later in New York, Oswald came to the Hall home on several occasions on Friday night and stayed until late Sunday afternoon or early Sunday evening when he returned by bus to Dallas. Mrs. Hall's home is approximately 12 to 14 miles from the business district of Fort Worth, and it is approximately 30 to 32 miles from the Fort Worth business district to the business district of Dallas. A trip from Mrs. Hall's home to Dallas involves in travel some 40 or more miles.

10. I distinctly recall the occasion upon which and the circumstances under which Marina left Mrs. Hall's and was taken by Oswald and George deMohrenschildt's daughter Alexandra and her husband Gary Taylor to Dallas to live. It was on a Sunday while Mrs. Hall was in New York. My recollection is that it was in the fore part of November on the Sunday preceding the return of Mr. and Mrs. Hall from New York. On the preceding Friday evening the phone rang in my apartment. It was Marina. She said that she was going to leave the Halls and go to Dallas to live with Oswald. At this point Oswald interrupted and spoke on the telephone saying to me in a commanding way that they were going to move into Dallas that coming week-end and he directed me to come by the next day. I came by the Halls the next day, which was Saturday, in the morning. Marina and Oswald were there. I entered the house. Marina was in the living room with her child in her arms. We had just begun to discuss the matter of moving the next day when Oswald observed that the zipper on Marina's skirt was not completely closed. He called to her in a very angry and commanding tone of voice just like an officer commanding a soldier. His exact words were, "Come Here!", in the Russian Language, and he uttered them the way you would call a dog with which you were displeased in order to inflict punishment on him. He was standing in the doorway leading from the living room into another room of the house. When she reached the doorway he rudely reprimanded her in a flat imperious voice about being careless in her dress and slapped her hard in the face twice. Marina still had the baby in her arms. Her face was red and tears came to her eyes. All this took place in my presence. I was very much embarrassed and also angry but I had long been afraid of Oswald and I did not say anything.

11. The arrangements for moving the following day were discussed. I was to be there to supervise the removal of the Oswald paraphernalia and to lock up the Hall residence.

12. When I arrived at the Hall's residence on that Sunday morning, Marina and George deMohrenschildt's daughter, Alexandra Taylor, were there. Oswald and Gary Taylor, the husband of Alexandra, George deMohrenschildt's daughter, were off somewhere in Fort Worth seeking to rent a "U-Haul-It" automobile trailer into which the Oswald paraphernalia was to be placed. Most of the Oswald goods that had been stored in Mrs. Hall's garage and which had been in her home were already packed in preparation for placing in the "U-Haul-It" trailer. Oswald and Gary Taylor returned in due course, in Taylor's automobile121 with the trailer hooked on behind. Taylor among other occupations, was a taxi driver in Dallas at this time.

13. I had met both Alexandra and Gary Taylor at the Hall's on a prior occasion. This was a weekday evening after Mrs. Hall returned from the hospital. They had been eating dinner at Mrs. Hall's home. I came to visit Mrs. Hall and was surprised to see them all at the table. Of course I left immediately since I hadn't been invited to the dinner. The Taylors brought Oswald with them in Taylor's car so that Oswald could visit Marina.

14. I supervised the placing of the Oswald goods and wearing apparel in the "U-Haul-It" trailer. There were several instances in which I had to intervene when Oswald picked up some of Mrs. Hall's things to place in the trailer. I could not say whether this was deliberate or inadvertent, except that there were several instances. My recollection is that Oswald and Taylor had obtained the trailer at a service station in Fort Worth. It seems to me it was a place somewhere on Barry Street. In due course the loading was completed. They got into Taylor's automobile and drove off. I understood from the telephone conversation on Friday night and my visit with the Oswalds at the Halls on Saturday, and the conversations that took place on Sunday, that the Oswalds were moving into an apartment in Dallas which Oswald had very recently rented. This was the last time I ever saw either of the Oswalds or had any contact with them. I had arrived at Mrs. Hall's around 1:00 p.m. and they departed around 3:30 p.m.

15. I recall that while Marina was staying at the Halls, and either before Mrs. Hall went to the hospital, or during the four or five days she was at home before departing for New York, that Oswald telephoned to speak with Marina. This was on a Saturday evening.

16. I recall the time that Oswald reported he had lost his job at Leslie Welding Company. It was the first week-end in October 1962. My recollection is that it was agreed that Marina would come to Mrs. Hall's house to stay while Oswald looked for a job in Dallas. I am uncertain whether Marina was brought directly to the Halls from the Mercedes Street apartment. There may have been something about Marina being taken to the Taylors' apartment in Dallas for a few days so that she could have some dental care at the Baylor University Clinic in Dallas. I do recall clearly that Mrs. Hall had a pickup truck which was owned by the dental laboratory where she was employed. Mrs. Hall had permission to drive to and from work with the pickup truck. It was agreed that the Oswald household goods and other paraphernalia would be moved to the Halls in the pickup truck. It may well be that Marina went directly to the Taylors; that the Oswald household goods and paraphernalia was taken to the Halls; and that Marina came to the Halls when her dental care at Baylor Clinic was completed. I understand Marina's appointments were on October 8th, 10th and 15th. It is my recollection, however, that the Oswald goods were packed in the trailer by John Hall and Mrs. Hall and were taken to the Halls. It may be that Oswald helped. My impression is that this was done on a Monday, but since, as I have now been advised, Oswald apparently worked at Leslie Welding Company on Monday, October 8th, that the transfer of the Oswald goods did not take place until Monday night after Oswald returned from his last working day at Leslie Welding Company. It was at Mrs. Hall's invitation that Marina went to live at Mrs. Hall's house.

17. In any event, I recall that nothing was heard from Oswald for a number of days after Marina came to Mrs. Halls to live. I assumed he was in Dallas, and knowing that the distance between Dallas and Mrs. Hall's home in Fort Worth was great, I thought relatively nothing of this, except that I thought that he should have telephoned.

18. On a good many of the occasions that I dropped by the Hall residence during my luncheon hour, I found that Marina had not yet awakened. I would have to arouse her by ringing the door bell and banging on the front door. I would find the household unkept, unwashed dishes in the sink or on the eating table, and her's and the baby's clothing strewn about the room. Marina would come to the door in a wrap-around, her hair disheveled and her eyes heavy with the effect of many hours of sleep. She would make some excuses about sleeping late.

122 On other occasions I was frequently in the Hall home when Mrs. Hall was home in the evenings and on weekends. I noticed that Marina did nothing to help Mrs. Hall in the house. Mrs. Hall often complained to me that Marina was lazy, that she slept until noon or thereabouts, and would not do anything around the house to help. I observed on many occasions that Marina was not neat and that she often dressed rather haphazardly.

19. I was concerned and suspicious about Oswald from the outset. I could not understand how he had been able to go to Russia and return with seeming ease, especially since he had attempted to defect and because I was aware that my cousin had not been able to get his wife and child out of Russia although he now lives in Poland. Also, I was alarmed from the outset by Oswald's talk. Other friends told me he frequently compared conditions here in America with those in Russia to the detriment of America and he did this in a way that was contemptuous of America. They said he would repeatedly say that there was no unemployment in Russia but that there was a lot of it in America; that capitalists in America lived off the workers. They said he argued that in Russia medical attention and care was at hand and was free, whereas in America you either had to pay doctors or hospitals or that even in clinics you always had to pay something.

20. I saw magazines about Russia in the Oswald apartment on Mercedes Street. Some were in the Russian language and some were in English. There were also newspapers in the Russian language.

21. I have always been very grateful to America. Americans have been very kind to me and I think a good deal of this country. It upset me when Oswald would say things against the United States. I did not argue with him because he appeared to me to be dangerous in his mind and I was frightened. I once said to him that, unlike him, I had come to this country for freedom and not to look for trouble by criticizing the United States; that while I did not have much money, I did have freedom and opportunity and Americans were kind to me.

22. I and Mrs. Hall, Mrs. Meller, George Bouhe, and the others were disturbed that Oswald flatly declined to make any effort to teach Marina English. He said he wanted to keep his Russian sharpened up. We thought this was very selfish of him. He would speak to other members of our group in Russian. I refused to discuss anything with him in Russian. I told him that if he wanted to talk with me he would have to talk to me in English; that he was born and raised in this country and his national tongue was English and he should be proud to speak English. I never answered him at any time in Russian. I thought at times he was bent on making Marina dissatisfied with the United States and also that he did not want her to have friends.

23. He treated Marina very poorly. He belittled her and was boorish to her in our presence. He talked to her and ordered her around just as though she were a mere chattel. He was never polite or tender to her. I feel very strongly that she was frightened of him. The only occasion I saw him physically mistreat her was the occasion I have mentioned but I heard repeatedly from Mrs. Hall, George Bouhe, and others that Oswald was physically mistreating her.

24. Oswald was not grateful for any of the help that was being accorded to him and Marina. He never once offered to contribute in even a small way to Mrs. Hall or any of the others with whom Marina stayed. This was often a topic of conversation among us. We did not have much money ourselves and we were knocking ourselves out to help. He did not express any thanks or evidence the slightest appreciation; in fact, he evidenced displeasure and contempt.

25. I expressed to Mrs. Hall and to my friend George Bouhe, and to others that I thought that they were only worsening things because the Oswalds did not appear appreciative of what was being done for them. He acted as though the world owed him a living. I had the impression from time to time that Marina was pretending and acting.

26. Oswald always acted toward her like a soldier commanding one of his troops. My overall impression of Oswald was that he was angry with the whole world and with himself to boot; that he really did not know what he wanted;123 that he was frustrated because he was not looked up to; and that he was dissatisfied with everything, including himself.

27. Mrs. Hall told me on several occasions that Marina had said to her that she was quite afraid of Oswald and that when she got to know a little more English she intended to leave him. Oswald did not care who was present as far as his boorish attitude toward Marina was concerned. It seemed that he did not care what others thought about anything.

28. Anna Meller, Mrs. Hall, George Bouhe and the deMohrenschildts, and all that group had pity for Marina and her child. None of us cared for Oswald because of his political philosophy, his criticism of the United States, his apparent lack of interest in anyone but himself and because of his treatment of Marina. Although the men were sometimes skeptical about helping them out, the ladies were quite compassionate about Marina and felt that she needed help not only because of their straitened financial circumstances, but because of Oswald's mistreatment of her.

29. I recall that when I saw the newspaper item in the Fort Worth paper about Oswald returning from Russia with his Russian wife, I spoke to Max Clark and his wife. They are good friends and fine people, and he is a lawyer. We were all apprehensive about coming in contact with the Oswalds but all the friends of mine later expressed the view that the Federal Bureau of Investigation knew Oswald and Marina were coming into this country, and if they did not do anything about it, it was probably all right to have contact with them. I am afraid I never became completely reassured.

30. Marina never had any money, not even pennies. Oswald would not give any money to her. Consequently, when she lived with Mrs. Hall and later with the others she and her baby were utterly dependent upon their host. She could not buy even a package of cigarettes, and even had she wished, she could not tender any token to her hosts.

Signed this 16th day of June 1964.

(S)Alexander Kleinlerer,
Alexander Kleinlerer.

TESTIMONY OF MRS. DONALD GIBSON

The testimony of Mrs. Donald Gibson was taken at 11 a.m., on May 28, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel, and Richard M. Mosk, member of the staff of the President's Commission.

Mr. Jenner. Would you be sworn?

Mrs. Gibson, in the testimony you are about to give on your deposition do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?

Mrs. Gibson. I do.

Mr. Jenner. Be seated, please. You are Mrs. Donald Gibson?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. You are the former Alexandra De Mohrenschildt?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And you were at one time married to Mr. Gary Taylor, of Dallas, Tex.?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. You now live in Wingdale, N.Y.?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. What is your address in Wingdale?

Mrs. Gibson. Harlem Valley State Hospital, Building 28, Wingdale, N.Y.

Mr. Jenner. I take it you are employed at the hospital?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. That is a State mental institution?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Is your husband also employed there?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes.

124 Mr. Jenner. Our information is that you were born on Christmas Day 1943?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes; that is right.

Mr. Jenner. That was here in the United States?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. New York, to be exact?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. So that you are now 20 years of age and will be 21 next December?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Your father is George Sergei De Mohrenschildt?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Your stepmother is Jeanne Fomenko De Mohrenschildt?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. F-o-m-e-n-k-o?

Mrs. Gibson. I didn't know that.

Mr. Jenner. Also at one point in her life, Jeanne Bogoiavlensky; is that correct?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes; Bogoiavlensky.

Mr. Jenner. You were a resident of Dallas, Tex., in 1962?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. You were then married to Gary Taylor?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. What was your address?

Mrs. Gibson. 3519 Fairmount.

Mr. Jenner. You married Mr. Taylor at a very early age as I recall?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. When was that?

Mrs. Gibson. November 21, 1959.

Mr. Jenner. I don't care for the details, but after you married Mr. Taylor, you and he lived in various places in Dallas?

Mrs. Gibson. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. What was the nature of his employment?

Mrs. Gibson. Well, he did all sorts of things. He went to school at one time, to college.

Mr. Jenner. In Dallas?

Mrs. Gibson. No; in Arlington. We lived in Arlington, too.

Mr. Jenner. What college was that?

Mrs. Gibson. Arlington State. I can't recall all the jobs he did. I mean he did a little bit of this and a little bit of that.

Mr. Jenner. Let's get to 1962. What was he doing then?

Mrs. Gibson. He was working off and on with a photographer, working on a movie, and driving a taxi part time. He also, he and this friend of his, Steve Moore, were trying to found this little company of landscaping. That didn't work out, so he still kept on his photography business.

Mr. Jenner. Do you recall his first name?

Mrs. Gibson. Well, it is——

Mr. Jenner. Do you recall his birthday?

Mrs. Gibson. December 24, I think 1939.

Mr. Jenner. So he was older, 4 years older than you?

Mrs. Gibson. He was 4 years older than me; that is right.

Mr. Jenner. I take it you were subsequently divorced?

Mrs. Gibson. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. You and Mr. Taylor. And when was that?

Mrs. Gibson. Our divorce became final, I believe, the 15th of April of last year.

Mr. Jenner. Of 1963?

Mrs. Gibson. 1963.

Mr. Jenner. I take it there is a waiting period then?

Mrs. Gibson. Three months.

Mr. Jenner. So the decree was entered the 15th of January?

Mrs. Gibson. I really don't know. I didn't enter it. I left Dallas and asked him to please divorce me.

Mr. Jenner. I see.

125 Mrs. Gibson. I didn't want to go through all the rigmarole of getting a divorce; no. I wanted to get out of Dallas right then.

Mr. Jenner. Were you living together as man and wife during all of the year 1962?

Mrs. Gibson. Until November, the last part of November of 1962; yes.

Mr. Jenner. Had you been separated prior to that time?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes; in 1961, I believe.

Mr. Jenner. Do you have a child?

Mrs. Gibson. One child.

Mr. Jenner. Born of that marriage?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And that child's name?

Mrs. Gibson. Curtis Lee Taylor.

Mr. Jenner. When was that child born?

Mrs. Gibson. February 10, 1962.

Mr. Jenner. While living at 3519 Fairmount in Dallas during the year 1962, did you become acquainted with a lady by the name of Marina Oswald?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Did you also become acquainted with a gentleman by the name of Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. With whom did you become acquainted first?

Mrs. Gibson. Marina Oswald.

Mr. Jenner. Tell me when, as closely as you can fix it. Let me put it this way. Tell me first the circumstances under which you became acquainted, what led up to it and how it occurred, and then fix as closely as you can when in 1962 you did become acquainted.

Mrs. Gibson. Well, my stepmother and my father called me up.

Mr. Jenner. Your stepmother is Jeanne De Mohrenschildt?

Mrs. Gibson. Jeanne; and my father called me up one evening and asked me——

Mr. Jenner. At your apartment?

Mrs. Gibson. At my apartment; and asked me if I would please take care of Marina Oswald's child while she went to the dentist, and could she stay overnight with me because she had two appointments in a row, one on one day and one the next day, and I said all right. And as for the date, I imagine you know it better than I do.

Mr. Jenner. I don't know anything better than you do.

Mrs. Gibson. If you give me the date on the pads. I don't remember the dates at all.

Mr. Jenner. Was it the month of September?

Mrs. Gibson. No. As I said, I thought it was before September.

Mr. Jenner. Before September?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Do you remember anything about the weather?

Mrs. Gibson. It was very hot, but I don't remember the month. It could have been——

Mr. Jenner. Could it have been in August?

Mrs. Gibson. It could have been the latter part of August. It seems to me that would be about right.

Mr. Jenner. Can you recall anything about what your father and/or your stepmother said to you in identifying these people? You were naturally curious as to who they were?

Mrs. Gibson. They told me that they were recently, Marina and Lee were recently here from Russia, and hadn't been in Dallas very long, or Fort Worth, wherever they were staying, and that she had a child the same age as mine, and that my stepmother thought it would be very nice if we got acquainted. And she said Marina was around my age, and asked if I would please help them out since they didn't have any room in their apartment to keep her while she had these dental appointments.

Mr. Jenner. That is, they didn't have any room in the De Mohrenschildts' apartment?

126 Mrs. Gibson. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. From that conversation you became aware, had the impression that your father and your stepmother had had some prior acquaintance with these people?

Mrs. Gibson. I think they just recently met them.

Mr. Jenner. That was the impression?

Mrs. Gibson. That was the impression I got.

Mr. Jenner. Do you recall what day of the week—that is, not the particular date as such, but was it a weekday, a Saturday, or a Sunday?

Mrs. Gibson. It was a weekday. Whether it was in the beginning of the week or the middle or the end I don't remember, but it was a weekday.

Mr. Jenner. What time of day was it?

Mrs. Gibson. Well, they called me the night before, but it was in the early morning of the next day.

Mr. Jenner. That you met Marina?

Mrs. Gibson. That I met Marina.

Mr. Jenner. Did Marina come alone?

Mrs. Gibson. No; my stepmother brought her and the child.

Mr. Jenner. That was in the morning?

Mrs. Gibson. In the morning; that is right.

Mr. Jenner. Describe your apartment, will you please?

Mrs. Gibson. How do you mean describe it?

Mr. Jenner. How many rooms, living room, bedroom, two bedrooms, kitchen, dining room?

Mrs. Gibson. Well, there are five rooms, I guess, in all.

Mr. Jenner. And they consisted of?

Mrs. Gibson. Living room, dining room, kitchen, bedroom, and bathroom. There was a small adjoining room to the bedroom but it wouldn't be classified as a whole room.

Mr. Jenner. Sort of more of a dressing room?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. For what purpose were you employing that room at that time?

Mrs. Gibson. My child slept in that room.

Mr. Jenner. Where did you folks, that is yourself and your husband, normally sleep?

Mrs. Gibson. We slept in the living room.

Mr. Jenner. That was your normal practice?

Mrs. Gibson. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. So that the bedroom you mentioned was not occupied?

Mrs. Gibson. No; it wasn't.

Mr. Jenner. It was not in use, rather, at the time that Marina stayed with you?

Mrs. Gibson. No; it was used as a playroom really for my son Curtis.

Mr. Jenner. Your stepmother brought Marina and the baby to your home?

Mrs. Gibson. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. Was your husband home at that time?

Mrs. Gibson. No; I don't think so.

Mr. Jenner. That is it was at a time when he would have departed for work?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes; I believe he had already gone to work.

Mr. Jenner. You said that Marina was to receive some dental care?

Mrs. Gibson. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. Did she remain in the apartment all day after she arrived?

Mrs. Gibson. After she came back from the dentist, she stayed there, I think she had a tooth, one or two pulled, and she stayed there that afternoon, after she came back from the dentist.

Mr. Jenner. Your stepmother brought her and then your stepmother took her to the dentist?

Mrs. Gibson. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. They returned?

Mrs. Gibson. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. That afternoon.

Mrs. Gibson. That is right.

127 Mr. Jenner. Did Marina remain and the baby remain with you overnight and into the next day?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Where did Marina and her child stay that evening?

Mrs. Gibson. They slept in the bedroom.

Mr. Jenner. You didn't lodge her child, June, in the room in which your son Curtis was?

Mrs. Gibson. No.

Mr. Jenner. When did you first meet Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mrs. Gibson. I believe it was on the evening of the first day that Marina stayed with me.

Mr. Jenner. Did someone bring him or did he come alone?

Mrs. Gibson. As far as I know, he came alone.

Mr. Jenner. What was your impression as to the place from which he had come?

Mrs. Gibson. I don't know where he had come from.

Mr. Jenner. But he came alone?

Mrs. Gibson. As far as I know; yes.

Mr. Jenner. Was Marina able to speak English?

Mrs. Gibson. No; not a word.

Mr. Jenner. Did you have any problems in that connection?

Mrs. Gibson. Well, I got a little dictionary and tried to figure out a few words, but it was very hard to communicate with her.

Mr. Jenner. I take it then from your remark that you yourself are not fluent in Russian?

Mrs. Gibson. No.

Mr. Jenner. Do you understand Russian?

Mrs. Gibson. A few words.

Mr. Jenner. Your father speaks Russian fluently, does he not?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes; he does.

Mr. Jenner. And your stepmother?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Despite their fluency in Russian, you never acquired any fluency? You just didn't acquire any familiarity with Russian?

Mrs. Gibson. No.

Mr. Jenner. Except your understanding of a few words?

Mrs. Gibson. No; I didn't.

Mr. Jenner. In any event you are unable to speak it?

Mrs. Gibson. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. When Oswald came to your house that evening, did he speak English or Russian?

Mrs. Gibson. He spoke English to us and Russian to Marina.

Mr. Jenner. When he arrived, did he speak with his child?

Mrs. Gibson. Oh, yes.

Mr. Jenner. In what language did he speak with the child?

Mrs. Gibson. Russian.

Mr. Jenner. That was not merely small talk? All of his conversation with his child was in Russian?

Mrs. Gibson. Some was small talk. You could tell that he was just playing around, and when he really talked to her, it was in Russian. Of course once in a while he'd lapse into English.

Mr. Jenner. You minded the child June while Marina was at the dentist?

Mrs. Gibson. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. And also the following day while she was at the dentist?

Mrs. Gibson. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. How did you get along with the child?

Mrs. Gibson. Not very well.

Mr. Jenner. Tell us about that.

Mrs. Gibson. Pardon? I didn't understand you.

Mr. Jenner. You say you didn't get along very well with the child. State it more fully to me factually; what the problems were.

Mrs. Gibson. Well, the minute Marina left, the child would start to cry. She128 whimpered all the time. I couldn't feed her. Every time I got near her she'd scream. She never slept. She's a very difficult child to get along with. She was not at all affectionate to anybody else but to her own parents.

Mr. Jenner. Do you think she found it strange to have anyone speak to her in English as distinguished from Russian?

Mrs. Gibson. I don't know if it was the English. I don't believe she had ever been with anybody but her parents and I think that might have had a lot to do with it, plus she was very spoiled, very catered to by her mother and her father.

Mr. Jenner. There were subsequent occasions when you visited the Oswalds or they visited you or Marina visited you or you visited Marina?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Drawing on the whole span of your acquaintance with the Oswalds, rather than merely those first 2 days, did you ever hear Lee Oswald address his child other than in Russian?

Mrs. Gibson. Oh, like I said, sometimes he'd lapse into English. I imagine it was mainly for our benefit, more so than the child's. I mean normally he probably spoke to the child alone or when he was with Marina always in Russian. He never spoke English to her ever or even tried to teach her English, never attempted to.

Mr. Jenner. That is he never spoke to Marina other than in Russian, and as you say, he never tried to teach her English?

Mrs. Gibson. He never tried to teach her English, never, not one word.

Mr. Jenner. Did that strike you and your husband Gary as a little out of the ordinary?

Mrs. Gibson. Well, we told him we thought that it was extremely stupid and we asked him why, and he said that he didn't want to lose his Russian. She, of course—in Russia I believe she worked in a pharmacy. Wasn't she a pharmacist? And therefore we said to be able to get a license over here she would have to speak English, and it didn't seem to bother him. I think he didn't like the idea of her having more education than he did. I think he wanted her to remain solely dependent on him.

Mr. Jenner. During all the period that you and your husband were acquainted with the Oswalds, was there ever any discussion about either of them returning to Russia?

Mrs. Gibson. No; he did not want to go back.

Mr. Jenner. Did he say that?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes. He disliked Russia just like he disliked the United States.

Mr. Jenner. What was your impression of him? Was he looking for utopia?

Mrs. Gibson. I'd say so. He didn't agree with communism and he didn't agree with capitalism. He had his own ideas completely on government.

Mr. Jenner. Would you please call on your recollection and tell us what you recall as to what his beliefs, political beliefs, were, as he expressed them?

Mrs. Gibson. Well, I'd say that his beliefs were more socialistic than anything else. I mean he believed in the perfect government, free of want and need, and free of taxation, free of discrimination, free of any police force, the right to be able to do exactly what he pleased, exactly when he pleased, just total and complete freedom in everything.

Mr. Jenner. Did he talk in terms of any obligation to this so-called perfect state?

Mrs. Gibson. No. Actually I think he believed in no government whatsoever, just a perfect place where people lived happily all together and no religion, nothing of any sort, no ties and no holds to anything except himself.

Mr. Jenner. Did he ever discuss in that connection the necessity for making a contribution to that society; working himself? Or was this a Utopia in which he was to be free to do what he pleased, work or not as he saw fit?

Mrs. Gibson. I really don't know if he planned to work or not. I don't know what Lee wanted to do in life. I think he wanted to be a very important person without putting anything into it at all.

Mr. Jenner. Did you have any impression of resentment on his part?

Mrs. Gibson. He resented any type of authority. He expected to be the highest paid immediately, the best liked, the highest skilled. He resented any people in high places, any people of any authority in government or, oh, in let's say129 the police force or anything like that, or in your Army, Navy, Marines or whatever he was in.

Mr. Jenner. Were there discussions between your husband and him on these subjects?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes; quite frequently. They argued a lot about it.

Mr. Jenner. Was there any discussion—you say he wanted to be the highest paid, he wanted to be the leader and that sort of thing. Did your husband raise with him any necessity on his part to qualify himself for those positions and that high pay?

Mrs. Gibson. Well, my husband told him you can't be something for nothing. He said you can't expect to get high pay and receive a good position with no education and no ambition, no particular goal, no anything. Well, he just expected a lot for nothing.

Mr. Jenner. You have the impression that he was not an ambitious person, ambitious in the sense of willing to devote himself to an objective and work toward something?

Mrs. Gibson. No; I don't think he knew what he wanted.

Mr. Jenner. As distinguished from just being given to him or falling in his lap?

Mrs. Gibson. No; I don't think he knew what he wanted, and I don't think he was too interested in working toward anything. He expected things to be just given to him on a silver platter. But in his ideas, he was extremely devoted.

Mr. Jenner. He was devoted to his concepts?

Mrs. Gibson. To his ideas as to how he thought. You couldn't change his mind no matter what you said to him.

Mr. Jenner. He was rigid in his views then?

Mrs. Gibson. Very, very rigid in his ideas.

Mr. Jenner. What did he say about Russia during these periods when you had these discussions?

Mrs. Gibson. Well, he said he was very disappointed in Russia. Russia was not what he thought it would be. It was not the ideal place, that Communism was not the ideal government, that he disliked Communism just as he disliked capitalism, that he disliked Russia very much.

Mr. Jenner. Did he tell you about his life in Russia? You were curious about it and your husband too, I assume?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes; he told us bits and pieces about it, and then of course he gave us a manuscript to read. He told us quite a bit about Russia, yes.

Mr. Jenner. Would you please state what you recall as to what he said in that connection?

Mrs. Gibson. Well, I can't recall any specific thing. I recall that he said he was quite sick over there; this didn't hold too well. He said he was treated with a little more deference than the next ordinary Russian person because he was American, that he had a terrific time leaving Russia, and that it scared him very much.

Mr. Jenner. You mean terrific in the sense of difficulty?

Mrs. Gibson. A very difficult time. I think he said it took him a year to be able to get out of Russia. He almost didn't make it. It scared him very much. He was supposed to give over his citizenship and become a citizen of Russia to be able to work there, but he didn't do this, and he was still able to work there. He didn't know why exactly, but they allowed him to work there anyway. But they kept pressuring him to give up his citizenship to be able to work in Russia, get working papers.

Mr. Jenner. Tell us more about that. Tell us everything you remember as to what he said about the fact that they pressured him to give up his citizenship so he could stay in Russia and work.

Mrs. Gibson. Well, I don't know how you consider pressuring him. They kept suggesting that he should give up his citizenship to be able to work in Russia; otherwise, why was he there? If he was there obviously he wanted to become a Russian. To be able to work in Russia you were supposed to be a Russian citizen. You had to give up your citizenship. And he kept objecting to this. I guess he was scared. He didn't really want to go as far as giving up his American citizenship.

Mr. Jenner. Did he say anything about his course of conduct when he first130 went to Russia, any attempted surrender by him of his citizenship at that time voluntarily?

Mrs. Gibson. No; I don't recall that he did say anything about voluntarily giving up his citizenship; no. He might have. I don't recall that.

Mr. Jenner. Was there any discussion as to how he met Marina; and their courtship and marriage?

Mrs. Gibson. There was. I don't remember too much of it. I think he met her in Minsk. I believe he was working there at a factory that manufactured television chassis, and he met her, I don't know exactly how. I think he met her when he was sick in the hospital. I don't know what was wrong with him. And they I guess went out from there, and I guess, I don't know how long they went out, and they got married.

Mr. Jenner. When you say "went out" you meant began to date?

Mrs. Gibson. Dating; yes. I don't know exactly what you do in Russia. And I think she wanted to come to the United States very badly.

Mr. Jenner. Would you elaborate on that, calling of course on your recollection of what was said which gave you these impressions? That is, what you learned from her or from conversations with him in her presence?

Mrs. Gibson. No; I guess this was rather hearsay. I think she told this to my stepmother in conversation, that she wanted very much to come to the United States to make a better life for herself, that she wasn't very much interested in politics, just in a better place to live. Supposedly this is the reason she married Lee.

Mr. Jenner. That was your impression in any event?

Mrs. Gibson. This is what I was told, yes.

Mr. Jenner. Nothing occurred during the period of time that you had this acquaintanceship with the Oswalds that disabused you of that impression?

Mrs. Gibson. No; and I wouldn't say there was a tremendous amount of love lost between them.

Mr. Jenner. Between Marina and Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mrs. Gibson. That is right. They quarreled quite a lot.

Mr. Jenner. Would you tell us about this lack of rapport between Marina and Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mrs. Gibson. Well, they fought quite a bit. They fought in Russian, always verbally when I saw them, but when she was living with Mrs. Hall in Fort Worth, I was told that he beat her up on numerous occasions, physically assaulted her, and that Mrs. Hall and her, oh, I don't know what you would call him, her fiance, Alex——

Mr. Jenner. Is that Alex, Alexander Kleinlerer?

Mrs. Gibson. I guess so. I don't know his name.

Mr. Jenner. Describe him to us.

Mrs. Gibson. Describe him?

Mr. Jenner. Physically.

Mrs. Gibson. He was short, very dark, moustache, black moustache, European dresser, an accent, very much the gangster type in his looks, very oily looking, very oily in personality, actually a rather creepy customer. He spoke Russian fluently. I think he spoke quite a few languages fluently. He, I believe, was born or originated in Paris. I have no idea what his occupation was. But he did not get along with Lee at all. He had numerous arguments with him over Marina and how he beat her.

Mr. Jenner. Did any of this occur in your presence?

Mrs. Gibson. One afternoon he was telling Lee off very, very——

Mr. Jenner. Tell us where this occurred?

Mrs. Gibson. This occurred in Mrs. Hall's home in Fort Worth.

Mr. Jenner. You were present?

Mrs. Gibson. And my husband; we were both present.

Mr. Jenner. And who else please?

Mrs. Gibson. Mrs. Hall and Marina were in the other room. Lee and Alex, and he was telling Lee off in no uncertain terms about how he beat up Marina, and about his whole outlook on life. He was really giving him a tongue lashing.

Mr. Jenner. And what response did he obtain from Lee?

131 Mrs. Gibson. Very sullen, very sharp answers. In fact I thought there was going to be a fight there for a minute.

Mr. Jenner. Did Lee deny at that time in your presence, these accusations being uttered by Alexander Kleinlerer?

Mrs. Gibson. He said it was none of his business.

Mr. Jenner. But he didn't deny that he had done this?

Mrs. Gibson. No.

Mr. Jenner. He just said it was none of Kleinlerer's business?

Mrs. Gibson. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. Had either you or your husband ever—did either you or your husband ever talk to Lee Oswald about his treatment of Marina?

Mrs. Gibson. No; we never talked to him about beating his wife. We just talked to him about how he should teach her English, how it was very important for her to know English.

Mr. Jenner. I take it that that phase, that is the teaching of English to her, that sort of conversation occurred several times during your acquaintanceship with Oswald?

Mrs. Gibson. Oh, yes; very often.

Mr. Jenner. And his response always was that he didn't want to lose——

Mrs. Gibson. He didn't want to lose his Russian.

Mr. Jenner. Was there anything said by you or Gary that he could speak to her in Russian and she could speak with him in Russian but at the same time she could be taught English?

Mrs. Gibson. No.

Mr. Jenner. Neither you nor your husband Gary urged that alternative?

Mrs. Gibson. No; we just gave up.

Mr. Jenner. What was Lee Oswald's personality? Was he a gracious person, ungracious, was he rude, or was he not? Was he appreciative?

Mrs. Gibson. He could be very, very rude. He appreciated absolutely nothing you did for him. He never thanked you for anything. He seemed to expect it of you.

Mr. Jenner. We are going to get into all that eventually, but you and your husband Gary were very helpful to him, reasonably so in any event. You did a number of things for him; did you not?

Mrs. Gibson. I'd say we did a number of things for him that we didn't have to do, and we certainly didn't need to do, and we certainly didn't owe him anything. But we did try to help.

Mr. Jenner. Now in the face of all that, you say that at no time did he express any appreciation or thanks.

Mrs. Gibson. I think the only time he ever said thank you was when we moved him from Fort Worth to Dallas. I think it was a very brief thank you, and that was that.

Mr. Jenner. But otherwise, he neither expressed nor did you feel any evidence of appreciation on his part for what you and your husband did?

Mrs. Gibson. No; I didn't feel anything. I fed his wife quite a few meals. He never offered me any reimbursement of any type for it. He never thanked me. He just seemed to act as if we owed it to him, and I felt that I didn't owe him a thing.

Mr. Jenner. What about Marina, on the other hand, in this connection?

Mrs. Gibson. I think Marina was appreciative.

Mr. Jenner. Discounting the difficulty of communication?

Mrs. Gibson. I had the feeling she was appreciative; yes. But she was exceedingly lazy. She would do nothing to help. The only thing she would do would be to take care of her child. She would do this, thank goodness, but otherwise she would do nothing to help. She wouldn't help with the dishes or clearing the table or preparing the meal, cleaning the apartment, anything pertaining to the extra work I had to do because she was there. Mrs. Hall had the same complaint.

Mr. Jenner. Mrs. Hall expressed this complaint to you?

Mrs. Gibson. Exactly the same complaint: that Marina slept very late, which she didn't do in my apartment but she did there, that she did not help with the132 house, that she didn't do anything really; just sat around and took care of the baby.

Mr. Jenner. Over this period—let me fix the period of time. You first met them, your present recollection is, sometime the latter part of August 1962. When was the last time you saw either of the Oswalds?

Mrs. Gibson. Well, when I returned a manuscript to Lee Oswald, it could have been either the end of November or the middle of December. I am not sure which.

Mr. Jenner. 1962?

Mrs. Gibson. 1962; that is right.

Mr. Jenner. Over this period of approximately, let us say, 3 months in 1962, how many times did Marina stay in your home? You have given one occasion.

Mrs. Gibson. It must have been at least two or three, no more than that.

Mr. Jenner. Over that 3 month period, the Oswalds were in your home no more than two or three times that is on visits, one or the other of them?

Mrs. Gibson. No; he was. She was only there one other time to visit. He popped in and out frequently. She was in Fort Worth at the time, and I didn't see her.

Mr. Jenner. Going back to this following or second day of Marina's visit in August, I take it your stepmother picked her up and took her to the dentist on the second day as well?

Mrs. Gibson. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. Did she return to Fort Worth that day?

Mrs. Gibson. I think she took a bus that afternoon to Fort Worth.

Mr. Jenner. Did she go to the bus station by herself or was she taken?

Mrs. Gibson. My stepmother took her.

Mr. Jenner. Did you learn where the Oswalds were living or staying at that time? That is, is this the first occasion that you met them?

Mrs. Gibson. Well, they must have been staying at that duplex.

Mr. Jenner. On Mercedes Street?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes; that is where they must have been staying.

Mr. Jenner. Were you ever in that home or apartment?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes; I was.

Mr. Jenner. When was the first occasion you were in that duplex?

Mrs. Gibson. It was Sunday afternoon somewhere, it must have been about 2 weeks or more after I first met them. Gary and I went over to visit them in Fort Worth.

Mr. Jenner. Weekday or weekend?

Mrs. Gibson. Sunday.

Mr. Jenner. On a Sunday. This was then in September of 1962?

Mrs. Gibson. It must have been early September or late August.

Mr. Jenner. This was a visit on your part?

Mrs. Gibson. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. Were they aware of the fact that you were going to visit them?

Mrs. Gibson. No.

Mr. Jenner. When you arrived there, was anyone there?

Mrs. Gibson. I am not very clear on that point. It is possible that Lee's mother was just leaving. I am not sure. She was either just leaving or she had just left before we came. I don't remember. I am not too clear on if I met her passing as she was going out or if I didn't meet her.

Mr. Jenner. How did you know where they lived?

Mrs. Gibson. Lee I believe—Lee gave us their address.

Mr. Jenner. On what occasion did he give you their address?

Mrs. Gibson. It must have been one of the times he stopped by, dropped in. I don't really know.

Mr. Jenner. I don't know as I asked you this. Did he visit at your home at anytime during those first 2 days that Marina stayed with you?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes; he came to visit the first evening.

Mr. Jenner. Had you expected him?

Mrs. Gibson. I had thought that he might be coming. I believe she had told133 my stepmother that Lee was dropping by or my stepmother had told me. Somebody had said something.

Mr. Jenner. That was the first occasion on which you met Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Did he stay the evening and then leave?

Mrs. Gibson. He stayed about an hour and then he left.

Mr. Jenner. And what did you notice with respect to the relations between Lee Oswald and Marina on that first occasion?

Mrs. Gibson. I'd say they got along fairly well.

Mr. Jenner. What was your impression as to whether he was employed at that time?

Mrs. Gibson. I didn't get any impression one way or the other.

Mr. Jenner. Did you get any impression in that respect when you and your husband, Gary, visited them on the Sunday afternoon you have mentioned?

Mrs. Gibson. I believe he talked about his employment, but I am not sure. He must have. They must have talked about it.

Mr. Jenner. Your impression was he was then working at some kind of employment?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes; I mean it was just normal to assume. He had an apartment and a child and a wife. He must have been working.

Mr. Jenner. Were there any others than those you have mentioned who were at the apartment on that Sunday afternoon; you have mentioned the possibility of Lee Harvey Oswald's mother and, of course, there was Lee and the baby and Marina.

Mrs. Gibson. Later on in the early evening some people came to visit, some of the Russian colony from Fort Worth and Dallas.

I don't recall the names. I think Mrs. Hall and Alex were there. Otherwise, there must have been four other people, four or five other people besides them.

Mr. Jenner. I will mention some names. Mamantov?

Mrs. Gibson. No; I don't know that name.

Mr. Jenner. Meller?

Mrs. Gibson. No; I don't know.

Mr. Jenner. You are familiar with the name Meller, aren't you?

Mrs. Gibson. No; I don't believe so.

Mr. Jenner. I think you mentioned Mrs. Hall and Kleinlerer.

Mrs. Gibson. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. As possibly having been there. Mr. and Mrs. Max Clark?

Mrs. Gibson. That is a possibility. The more I think about it, it is possible, but I am not sure.

Mr. Jenner. You were acquainted with or aware of the Clarks?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes; I believe I knew them.

Mr. Jenner. They were friends of your father and stepmother?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes; I am not positive that I knew them very well, but I have a feeling, the name rings a bell definitely.

Mr. Jenner. Are you familiar with the name George Bouhe?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Was George Bouhe there?

Mrs. Gibson. I am not sure, but the more I think about it, you asked me this question earlier, I think he was there. I think he was the extra man that was there.

Mr. Jenner. What impression did you get as to whether it had been expected that this group was to come by or did they just happen by?

Mrs. Gibson. No; I think they just dropped in.

Mr. Jenner. Did they stay very long?

Mrs. Gibson. I left before they left. I don't know.

Mr. Jenner. What was the nature of the conversation on that occasion?

Mrs. Gibson. I couldn't really tell. A lot of it was in Russian. You couldn't tell what was going on.

Mr. Jenner. These were by and large Russian-speaking people?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Describe the apartment to me, will you please?

134 Mrs. Gibson. Oh, my. Well, it was rather nice. It was clean. There was a living room and a kitchen and a bedroom and a bath, hardwood floors, good paint. It was a duplex. A large backyard. The furniture was rundown but it was usable. All in all it was not a bad apartment.

Mr. Jenner. What impressions did you get of Lee Harvey Oswald throughout the 3 month period, as to his dress and his self-respect and care?

Mrs. Gibson. He was not a very clean person. In fact, I'd say he wasn't clean at all. He seemed to wear the same shirt for week after week. Every time we saw him he had the same clothes on. Fairly clean-shaven, but otherwise he was definitely not a clean person in dress.

Mr. Jenner. And Marina on the other hand?

Mrs. Gibson. I'd say she was fairly clean.

Mr. Jenner. What was Lee Oswald's attitude and his posture with respect to other people? Was he reasonably polite and respectful? How did he conduct himself in the presence of others?

Mrs. Gibson. It would depend on who the people were. He could be very polite if he wished. He could be very sarcastic, very blunt if he wished. He could be a very friendly person if he wished, and he could be very quiet if he wished. It just depended on who the people were.

Mr. Jenner. Which was predominant?

Mrs. Gibson. Oh, I don't know. It was really a mixture. He was easy, not too hard to get along with as far as we were concerned. We argued with him but it was always a friendly argument. When I saw him with other people, he was as friendly, smiling, but with his wife he could be very quiet, very brooding. That is about all I can tell you.

Mr. Jenner. It has been said of him by some people that he was somewhat of an introvert, very quiet, not seeking the company of others.

Mrs. Gibson. No; I wouldn't say he would seek out company, but when they came or when he went to visit them or us, he was always very—he didn't seem to be introverted; no. He seemed to be quite friendly, quite extroverted, no trouble expressing himself. He didn't sit in silence for hours.

Mr. Jenner. What about his regard, his attitude toward others with respect to—that is did he—let's take your father's folks, did he have respect for your father? Did he like him?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes; he liked my father very much. He had a great deal of respect for him.

Mr. Jenner. And your husband Gary?

Mrs. Gibson. I would imagine he did.

Mr. Jenner. What is your impression?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes; I'd say Marina probably liked Gary more than Lee, though.

Mr. Jenner. Lee did visit at your home?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And he did on occasion seek out your husband?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And your husband occasionally sought out him?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Did Lee express any views with respect to others in that milieux, that company, the Halls, the Mellers, the Clarks, Bouhe, the Voshinins, the Russian emigree colony?

Mrs. Gibson. Well, he liked Mr. Bouhe very much and he expected a lot of him. I think he thought that Mr. Bouhe might be his key to getting a good job. Mrs. Hall now, he liked her, but he said she was a crude, coarse woman. I think maybe he really deeply didn't like her that well.

Alex—what did you say his name was?

Mr. Jenner. Kleinlerer.

Mrs. Gibson. He didn't like him at all, and the other people you mention, I imagine he has talked about them, but I can't place them, so I don't know his opinion on them.

Mr. Jenner. These people were trying to help, were they not?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes; especially George Bouhe.

Mr. Jenner. What was Lee's attitude toward that effort?

Mrs. Gibson. I don't know. I don't know why they were trying to help him.135 He didn't deserve it. They didn't owe it to him. Yet he seemed to, I got the feeling he thought they did. Why, I don't know.

Mr. Jenner. Did you get the feeling at any time that he was contemptuous of any of them?

Mrs. Gibson. When they didn't come up with something he wanted; yes. I'd say George Bouhe was the one that stuck by him the most, more than my father, more than any of them. Mrs. Hall got disgusted with the whole thing, and especially, well, with both of them really, a lot with Marina and a lot with Lee.

She got very disgusted with the whole situation. My father did, too. George Bouhe seemed to be the only one that sort of stuck by them.

Mr. Jenner. Why did your father become disgusted with them?

Mrs. Gibson. Oh, just in general, with Lee's lack of being able to get a good job or being able to really stick with anything, his treatment of his wife, his treatment of his fellowmen, just his total indifference. My father just got very aggravated with the whole thing, got aggravated with Marina for taking Lee's abuse, and he just got fed up.

Mr. Jenner. Now, there came an occasion when he either lost or quit his position in Fort Worth, isn't that so?

Mrs. Gibson. I guess so.

Mr. Jenner. Well, that——

Mrs. Gibson. I imagine, I don't know if he lost it or if he quit. I believe he said he quit.

Mr. Jenner. All right, now that you have said that, the fact is that he did quit. Now, to help orient yourself, that occurred on the 8th of October 1962, which was, I think, a Tuesday but I will check on that to make sure. That was a Monday.

Now, between that Sunday afternoon which would be either late in August or some time in September, and the 8th of October, which was a Monday, when he left the Leslie Welding Co., had you seen the Oswalds?

Mrs. Gibson. Between when?

Mr. Jenner. Between the Sunday that you visited them and the 8th of October.

Mrs. Gibson. No; I don't believe we had. We might have. He might have popped in. I don't know.

Mr. Jenner. You have mentioned——

Mrs. Gibson. Is this before he stayed at the YMCA? This is before, isn't it?

Mr. Jenner. Yes. To help you in that respect, he stayed at the YMCA October 15 through October 19, 1962.

Mrs. Gibson. He might have popped in. I don't recall whether he did or not.

Mr. Jenner. Now, during that period of time, from that Sunday to October 8, had Marina stayed with you?

Mrs. Gibson. No; I don't believe so.

Mr. Jenner. You do recall Lee Oswald being in Fort Worth at the YMCA, however, do you?

Mrs. Gibson. In Fort Worth?

Mr. Jenner. I mean in Dallas.

Mrs. Gibson. Yes; we took him there.

Mr. Jenner. You did take him to the YMCA?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. All right. Now, that was the 15th of October?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. 1962. Where was Marina then?

Mrs. Gibson. She might have been with us at the time.

Mr. Jenner. Do you recall whether you went to Fort Worth and picked him up and took him to the YMCA?

Mrs. Gibson. No; I don't believe we did.

Mr. Jenner. Give me your best recollection of that circumstance.

Mrs. Gibson. All I can remember is letting him off at the YMCA. I am almost positive we wouldn't go to Fort Worth, though, to pick him up. No; I don't believe so.

Mr. Jenner. That was a Monday.

Mrs. Gibson. It was the afternoon when we dropped him at the Y.

136 Mr. Jenner. And you have no present recollection where you picked him up, whether——

Mrs. Gibson. No.

Mr. Jenner. Whether he had come to your house or what the circumstances were?

Mrs. Gibson. No; I sure don't. I think he might have come to our house, but I am not sure.

Mr. Jenner. Did Marina stay with you during this October period at all?

Mrs. Gibson. I think she stayed with us the time that he was in the YMCA.

Mr. Jenner. That is?

Mrs. Gibson. I think she stayed with us about 5 days.

Mr. Jenner. That is 5 days?

Mrs. Gibson. No; I don't believe she stayed with us the full time, no.

Mr. Jenner. But she did stay with you during a period?

Mrs. Gibson. A few; yes.

Mr. Jenner. Do you have a recollection of how she got there, whether you went or your husband went and picked her up and brought her to your home or whether Lee brought her?

Mrs. Gibson. No; I don't believe Lee brought her. I think it would be more—it would be normal to assume, I don't remember this, that my stepmother or my father must have brought her, because I know we didn't. I don't recall picking her up at all.

Mr. Jenner. But she stayed with you then, you think, during the period that he was at the YMCA?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Now, did Lee visit at your home while she was there during this YMCA period?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Do you recall whether your husband Gary went over to the YMCA and picked him up and brought him to your home?

Mrs. Gibson. No; I don't think so. I think he came by bus, or walked. That was possible, too. It wasn't that far.

Mr. Jenner. Would you locate your apartment at 3519 Fairmont with respect to the location of the Dallas YMCA. That was downtown?

Mrs. Gibson. Well, it was almost downtown. I believe it was on Maple Avenue or very near Maple Avenue.

Mr. Jenner. That is, the YMCA was?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes; and Maple Avenue, we were only one block off of Maple Avenue. We ran parallel with Maple, Fairmont did, and we were only 1 block off of Maple, and I'd say it was, oh, maybe 12 blocks from the YMCA.

Mr. Jenner. An easy walk?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes; 12 or 14, maybe farther, but it was not a real long walk. It is possible to walk the distance. Bus service was very frequent and very easy to get.

Mr. Jenner. Now, did you become aware, you and your husband, of the fact that Lee obtained a position at Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall on the 12th of October? That is while he was at the YMCA, he had already obtained this position and had begun to work at Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall?

Mrs. Gibson. He began to work there while he was at the Y?

Mr. Jenner. He went to work on the 12th of October 1962.

Mrs. Gibson. Oh my goodness. Well, it is possible that we knew this. I know, I remember that he was employed there because I remember he used to tell Gary how he liked the job, how that interested him.

Now, when I thought he was employed there I don't know. I remember when he was at the Y that he was looking for a place to live in the Dallas-Oak Cliff area.

Mr. Jenner. Did you or your ex-husband Gary or both of you help him to look?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes; I believe one evening we went out with them and looked over the prospective places, places that we knew of, the place where we used to live—and Worthington, and just in the general low-rent area which would be accessible to where he was going to be working.

137 Mr. Jenner. So that you knew at that time where he was working or going to work?

Mrs. Gibson. We knew the location of the place where he was working.

Now, I am not sure if we knew that he was working already or if we thought he was still unemployed, not unemployed but already employed but not working yet.

Mr. Jenner. Do you recall Mrs. Hall having been involved in an automobile accident?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. That was in October, was it not, 1962?

Mrs. Gibson. I don't know what the month was, but I imagine it was. It must have been in the latter part of October.

Mr. Jenner. Do you recall Marina residing with Mrs. Hall?

Mrs. Gibson. She was with Mrs. Hall before the accident and after the accident and while Mrs. Hall was in the hospital she lived at the house.

Mr. Jenner. Do you recall also that Mrs. Hall, after she returned from the hospital, went to New York City?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes; I do.

Mr. Jenner. And that while she was in New York City, that Marina stayed at her home also?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes; she did.

Mr. Jenner. Do you know whether during that period Lee Oswald stayed at the Halls'?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes; he did. I believe, while Mrs. Hall was in the hospital; he stayed with Marina while she was alone for 2, 3, or 4 days, something like that. He was there off and on. He spent quite a few nights there, I know this.

Mr. Jenner. Were there any occasions when you and your husband or either of you were at the Halls' when Oswald was there?

Mrs. Gibson. I believe we took him to Fort Worth once to visit, and we stayed for supper, and Mrs. Hall was there and she cooked us supper. This is before her accident, and Alex was there and Marina and Gary and myself.

Mr. Jenner. This is the occasion to which you earlier made a reference, is it, or had you done so?

Mrs. Gibson. It was the occasion where Alex and Lee got into an argument; yes. And this was prior to Mrs. Hall's accident. We stayed until fairly late in the evening. I can't remember if we brought Lee back with us or if he spent the night. It would seem logical, I think we brought Lee back with us.

Mr. Jenner. You brought him back to where?

Mrs. Gibson. To Dallas.

Mr. Jenner. To where in Dallas?

Mrs. Gibson. I don't know. I can't remember.

Mr. Jenner. This was before he stayed at the YMCA?

Mrs. Gibson. No; this was after.

Mr. Jenner. This was after Mrs. Hall returned from the hospital?

Mrs. Gibson. No; this was before her accident. This is while Marina was there.

Mr. Jenner. To help orient you, she was in the hospital from the 18th of October 1962 to the 26th of October 1962.

Mrs. Gibson. This is before her accident. I think only a couple of days before her accident or a day before, because I remember how shocked I was when I heard that she had been in an accident. It was only a day or two before, so where would he have been living, at the Y, wouldn't he, at that time?

Mr. Jenner. He would be at the Y.

Mrs. Gibson. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. He was at the Y on the 15th.

Mrs. Gibson. I imagine that is where we dropped him then.

Mr. Jenner. Do you know of your own personal knowledge the fact that Lee stayed with Marina at the Halls' from time to time?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes; Mrs. Hall told me—he told me and Marina——

Mr. Jenner. Oswald told you?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes; and Marina told me in a roundabout fashion.

Mr. Jenner. How?

138 Mrs. Gibson. Well, she'd tell, you know, Mrs. Hall to tell me something and Mrs. Hall would tell me, that is how, or through Lee, or through gestures or a dictionary she would be able to tell me a few words.

Mr. Jenner. Do you know whether or where, I will put it that way, where Lee stayed between the 19th of October 1962, when he left the Y, and November 3, 1962, when they moved into the Elsbeth Street apartment?

Mrs. Gibson. I know that he stayed part of the time, I'd say a good portion of the time, at Mrs. Hall's. Now, whether he had another residence I don't know. I know he spent a few evenings with my father. If he spent a night there I don't know.

Mr. Jenner. When you say he spent a few evenings with your father, I infer from that—and if my inference is wrong please tell me—that there were occasions when he stayed overnight in your father's home.

Mrs. Gibson. No; not occasions. I think possibly one or two times. But he would be over there evenings and they would talk. Then he would leave. Now, where he went to I don't know.

Mr. Jenner. But your recollection is that there were at least several occasions in which he stayed overnight in your father's home?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes; I am trying very hard to think of where he stayed. It is such a very vague recollection, so vague it is barely there, that he had a room. But I don't know where.

Mr. Jenner. During this period?

Mrs. Gibson. During that period; yes.

Mr. Jenner. From the 19th to the 3d?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes; it is so vague but it is there, that he had a room somewhere. Where I don't know. I just can't think.

Mr. Jenner. Do you have a recollection that either you or your husband ever went to visit him at some room?

Mrs. Gibson. No; Gary possibly, but me, no. Gary might have picked him up some place, but not me. I don't recall. It is just so vague and maybe it is just because you think there was one that I say this. But I feel that there was a room some place.

Mr. Jenner. Do you have any recollection that your stepmother gave you at any time an address?

Mrs. Gibson. No; I don't.

Mr. Jenner. At which Lee, a place where Lee was staying during this period from October 19 to November 3?

Mrs. Gibson. No; I don't. She might have, but I have no recollection of it whatsoever. But then we weren't on too tremendously good terms and I might have just not even thought of what she said.

Mr. Jenner. In any event, it is your recollection that during this period, October 19 through November 3, that Lee did stay a good portion of the time at the Halls?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. With Marina?

Mrs. Gibson. It seems to me that he had a place to live somewhere near where he was working, somewhere easily accessible on foot, to where he was working.

Mr. Jenner. That is your former husband Gary's recollection, and he seemed reasonably confident that you would recall the address.

Mrs. Gibson. No, no; no idea. Did Gary mention something about one night we were in Oak Cliff and we were looking for some place.

Mr. Jenner. He said you were looking for Oswald?

Mrs. Gibson. Is that what he said? And we went up and down and up and down and we never found the place. I recall one evening, I don't remember what we were looking for, but I recall this.

Mr. Jenner. You were looking for Oswald?

Mrs. Gibson. Is that who we were looking for?

Mr. Jenner. No; I——

Mrs. Gibson. I don't know, I am not sure, but one evening Gary and I were looking for some place, and I don't know where it was. But it was in Oak Cliff. It was right over the river. And we went up and down and back and forth for139 a good hour looking for this address. And I can't think of where it was, and we never found it. I do remember that. We never found it.

Mr. Jenner. But it had something to do with Oswald?

Mrs. Gibson. I think it did. I think it had to do with a room that he had over there, but where it was, the address, I don't know. I never knew Oak Cliff very well in the first place.

Mr. Jenner. You say he was now employed and could afford a room?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes; but I don't know where. I—we couldn't find it wherever it was, because we looked.

Mr. Jenner. But you did have an address at that time?

Mrs. Gibson. I had an address for something I was looking for. What it was I don't know. If I was looking for him or if I was looking for somebody else, if Gary was looking for somebody, I don't recall. But it could possibly be that it was him that we were looking for. I don't know how Gary thinks I can remember an address, though. I don't.

Mr. Jenner. Do you recall an occasion when you assisted Marina and Lee to move into the Elsbeth Street apartment?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes; I do.

Mr. Jenner. What day of the week was that?

Mrs. Gibson. I don't know. Weekend.

Mr. Jenner. Was that a weekend?

Mrs. Gibson. It seems reasonable that it would have been a weekend, but then with Gary working as a cabdriver, I don't know if it was or not, because he sometimes worked weekends. They were good days to work. Saturday was very good. Was it a Sunday?

Mr. Jenner. Yes. Wait a minute, it was a Saturday, the 3d of November 1962, was a Saturday.

Mrs. Gibson. Did we move him in on that day or did he start rent from that day?

Mr. Jenner. The advice of the landlord or manager of the building was they moved in on the third, but do you recall that it was a weekend rather than a weekday?

Mrs. Gibson. I wouldn't know. It could have been. It seems more logical that it would have been a weekend.

Mr. Jenner. Now, tell us about that from the beginning. What led up to it, how you participated, the extent you participated with your husband?

Mrs. Gibson. Well, when we were over in Fort Worth visiting Mrs. Hall, we had taken Lee over there to see Marina, we told them we would help them move when he found a place, and he came by one evening or——

Mr. Jenner. Excuse me. This then was after he had obtained a job?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes. He either called or came by one evening.

Mr. Jenner. Was Mrs. Hall home on that occasion when you went over to see them?

Mrs. Gibson. When we moved them or before, that other time?

Mr. Jenner. That other time.

Mrs. Gibson. Yes; she was.

Mr. Jenner. So this was subsequent to October 26?

Mrs. Gibson. And also we were over there to visit them also another time after she had the accident, and I remember she was in bed.

Mr. Jenner. Was it before or after she went to the hospital?

Mrs. Gibson. It was after, right after, when she came home and she was still in bed. It was before she went to New York.

Mr. Jenner. She came back on the 26th of October?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes; and we went over there and she was still in bed.

Mr. Jenner. Was that the occasion? Was he there?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Was that the occasion when you told him that you would help him move?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. When he found a place?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes; I believe he said he was looking. And I believe——

Mr. Jenner. Lee was at the Halls' on that occasion?

140 Mrs. Gibson. No; I think we took him there.

Mr. Jenner. All right, he was not at the YMCA.

Mrs. Gibson. No.

Mr. Jenner. He was not staying at the Halls'?

Mrs. Gibson. No; he came to our apartment.

Mr. Jenner. So he must have been staying somewhere in Dallas?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes; he must have been. He came to our apartment. I don't ever recall taking him back to any place in particular, or picking him up at any place in particular. See, that is my problem. But I do remember the visit when she was in bed, and we told them that we would help them move. And I guess he must have called us or come to visit us about moving, and we took our car and I think, I don't know if we rented a trailer, I think they rented a trailer in Fort Worth, I am not sure, and left it in Dallas.

Mr. Jenner. Let's get it sequentially. You left your apartment?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Lee came to your apartment?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. In the morning was it?

Mrs. Gibson. Morning or early afternoon.

Mr. Jenner. And then you left your apartment?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. You, your husband, and Lee?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And where did you go?

Mrs. Gibson. To drop the baby off.

Mr. Jenner. Your baby?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. With a sitter?

Mrs. Gibson. No; to Mrs. Taylor, Gary's mother.

Mr. Jenner. All right.

Mrs. Gibson. From there we went to Fort Worth to Mrs. Hall's, and then Lee and Gary went to rent a trailer, and I stayed with Marina.

Mr. Jenner. Was Mrs. Hall home on that occasion?

Mrs. Gibson. No.

Mr. Jenner. Where was Mrs. Hall?

Mrs. Gibson. I don't know. I guess she was in New York. So, they came back with the trailer and we started to load up all the stuff, and Alex——

Mr. Jenner. Kleinlerer?

Mrs. Gibson. Kleinlerer came by, I guess to supervise the moving, to see that nothing was taken of Mrs. Hall's, and he watched us move and we got all their stuff out, and we took them to their apartment in Oak Cliff, Elsbeth apartment, to move them in there. By then it was early evening, and then we left them there. We looked over the apartment and we left them there.

Mr. Jenner. Your husband rented that trailer?

Mrs. Gibson. I think Lee did; didn't he? I don't think Gary paid for it. Did Gary pay for it? I can't imagine Gary paying for it. He might have, but I don't see it.

Mr. Jenner. Apart from that, did Lee thank you for spending the day?

Mrs. Gibson. Very briefly, thank you, and that was all. Marina was not happy with the apartment at all. She said it was filthy dirty, it was a pigsty and she didn't want to stay there. Lee said it could be fixed up.

Mr. Jenner. What was their attitude toward each other on that occasion?

Mrs. Gibson. They were arguing.

Mr. Jenner. During the day when you reached the Elsbeth Street apartment?

Mrs. Gibson. Not too much during the day but after she saw the apartment she was very unhappy with it and they were arguing very much when we left.

Mr. Jenner. Was it your impression she had not seen it?

Mrs. Gibson. No; I don't believe she had; no.

Mr. Jenner. What was your impression of the apartment?

Mrs. Gibson. It was a hole. It was terrible, very dirty, very badly kept, really quite a slum. It had possibilities to be fixed up. It was large, quite large, built very strangely, little rooms here and there, lots of doors, lots of141 windows. The floor had big bumps in it, you know. It was like the building had shifted and you walked up hill, you know, to get from one side of the room to the other. It was not a nice place; no.

Mr. Jenner. Was it a brick structure, wooden?

Mrs. Gibson. It was brick outside, dark red brick. It was a small apartment building. I think two stories, overrun with weeds and garbage and people.

Mr. Jenner. Did you visit the Oswald's in that apartment thereafter?

Mrs. Gibson. No.

Mr. Jenner. Do you know whether your husband did?

Mrs. Gibson. I think he told me when I came back to Dallas in December that he visited them once.

Mr. Jenner. I take it then that sometime after November 3, you left Dallas?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes; I left Dallas the latter part of November.

Mr. Jenner. And just to orient you, where did you go?

Mrs. Gibson. I went to Tucson, Ariz.

Mr. Jenner. You were with your aunt?

Mrs. Gibson. No; I was by myself.

Mr. Jenner. Had you lived in Tucson?

Mrs. Gibson. Before that, no; not really. I had been to boarding school there a few years, and I lived in Tucson 1 year with my aunt in a house that we rented, and her husband, but I had not lived in Tucson before this.

Mr. Jenner. Let's identify her. What was her name?

Mrs. Gibson. Mrs. Tilton.

Mr. Jenner. What was her full name?

Mrs. Gibson. Do you want her first name?

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mrs. Gibson. Nancy.

Mr. Jenner. Nancy Tilton?

Mrs. Gibson. Nancy Sands Tilton.

Mr. Jenner. And her married name?

Mrs. Gibson. Mrs. Charles Elliott Tilton III.

Mr. Jenner. And in previous years you had as a young girl, even as a child, lived with her; had you not?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. That was a good many years?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes; 14 years.

Mr. Jenner. Fourteen years. Was that in Arizona or Florida?

Mrs. Gibson. It was all around. I lived in Vermont in the summer, Arizona in the winter, Florida sometimes. It depended.

Mr. Jenner. Your aunt was a person of means I gather?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. You have already mentioned that you saw Lee Harvey Oswald when you returned from Arizona?

Mrs. Gibson. I am not sure if it was then or if it was right before I left.

Mr. Jenner. Before you left for what?

Mrs. Gibson. Arizona.

Mr. Jenner. And where did you see him?

Mrs. Gibson. At the apartment. He came by to pick up a manuscript that I had of his.

Mr. Jenner. That is at your apartment?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. I show you a document that is in evidence in this proceeding as Commission Exhibit No. 95. Would you examine that and tell me whether that is the manuscript to which you have made reference several times.

Mrs. Gibson. I believe it is. Yes; it is.

Mr. Jenner. Tell me the circumstances under which you first saw that document and how it came into your possession?

Mrs. Gibson. I asked Lee if he had written anything on Russia that I could read, if he had any material, and he said yes, he did; that he had a manuscript that he had written on general life in Russia and I asked him if I could read it and he said yes and he gave it to me. He brought it over one evening. I have no idea of the date or the time.

142 Mr. Jenner. Was it reasonably early in the course of your acquaintance with the Oswalds?

Mrs. Gibson. I think it was before they moved to Dallas, to Oak Cliff.

Mr. Jenner. Did you ever discuss the manuscript with him?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes; I did. I told him he should publish it and he said no, that it was not for people to read.

Mr. Jenner. Did you ever discuss its contents with him?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes; a little bit. I asked him questions about it.

Mr. Jenner. Can you recall any of the inquiries you made of the discussions you had with him regarding the substance of it?

Mrs. Gibson. Well, I asked him, I believe on this manuscript that it was said that you could not move from town to town.

Mr. Jenner. In Russia?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes; and he was telling me why.

Mr. Jenner. What did he say?

Mrs. Gibson. He said that the housing problem was so difficult there that once you got an apartment or a room in one city, that you had to wait in line in another city to get housing, therefore, you were not allowed to leave from one city to another unless you already had housing and a job. But for him it was easier because he was an American, and I guess as he said they were trying to impress him a little bit.

Mr. Jenner. In that connection did he imply that he was free to move about the country as he saw fit?

Mrs. Gibson. Freer than Russians I would imagine. He did imply that he was freer than they were.

Mr. Jenner. To move around?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Did he say that he had at any time left Minsk to go anywhere else?

Mrs. Gibson. I believe he had been to Moscow.

Mr. Jenner. Was that in connection with his efforts to return to this country?

Mrs. Gibson. I have no idea. I think it was just to see the countryside.

Mr. Jenner. Would you look further through that manuscript and see if your recollection is refreshed as to any other discussion you had with him?

Mrs. Gibson. Well, we talked a little bit about clothing and food.

Mr. Jenner. That is a generalization. Tell me what you talked about.

Mrs. Gibson. Well, he said that the Russian people were very impressed with his clothing, that they did not have the quality or the style that he had. Also the sparseness of fruits, vegetables there. He told them about the supermarkets we had here and how plentiful fruit and vegetables were, how expensive butter and everything was in Russia, like that, your dairy products, aside from milk, butter, and cottage cheese, and all these things were extremely expensive and, well, like gold. Education we talked about, how much higher their educational standards are.

Mr. Jenner. Than ours?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. What did he say in that connection?

Mrs. Gibson. They are much higher, that everybody is trained there to do something. That they have what would be considered, well, like your elementary school, and after you finished this required, oh, I don't know what it is, 8 or 9 years of school, you take this test, and if you pass this test you are admitted into what is considered college. If you don't pass it, you are able to choose a vocational school that you can go to to train you in some vocation, oh, like bricklayers or electricians or plumbers or something like this. You are allowed to choose whatever you want. You hear, he said, that women are laying streets, let's say, in Russia and he said that isn't because they are made to but this is because what they have chosen to do, what they want to do. That is about the general gist of what he had to say.

Mr. Jenner. Do you recall something about a time when little June was baptized?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes; I do.

Mr. Jenner. Tell us about that, please.

143 Mrs. Gibson. Well, one evening there was a knock at the door and I went to answer it and Mrs. Hall and Marina and June were outside, and Mrs. Hall came in and told me that she had just brought Marina and June to Dallas.

Mr. Jenner. Did Marina and the baby come in the apartment, too?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And Mrs. Hall said this in the presence of Marina?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Was your husband home?

Mrs. Gibson. No. She said that they brought the baby to Dallas to be baptized without Lee knowing it because he would object, and that Marina had been brought up in Russia with religion, although it was against the law there, and that she wanted her child to be baptized, and that Lee objected so strongly to it that she did it on the sly, and she asked me please not to tell him. And she left a box of clothes of his there for me that she had bought him. It was his birthday, I believe, the next day.

Mr. Jenner. Lee's birthday?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. All right. Now, he was born on the 18th of October 1939, so this was the occasion when he was living at the YMCA?

Mrs. Gibson. His birthday was the next day or something, or a couple of days.

Mr. Jenner. He was at the YMCA from the 15th through the 19th, 1962?

Mrs. Gibson. I am getting my days messed up, because I thought she stayed with us while he was at the YMCA. She must not have. You know, I can't place when she stayed with us. I can just place the period of time that she stayed with us, you know, that it was not over 3 or 4 days.

Mr. Jenner. Could it have been right following his leaving the YMCA?

Mrs. Gibson. It possibly could have been. I really don't know. But like I said, that is something I forgot. Now that you know his birthday, you can place when she was baptized and when she brought this box to me.

Mr. Jenner. She was baptized the day before his birthday?

Mrs. Gibson. I am not sure if it was the day before or 2 days or 3 days, but it was real close to his birthday.

Mr. Jenner. Real close?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. The records indicate the baptism occurred on the 17th of October, 1962.

Mrs. Gibson. Then it must have been the day before.

Mr. Jenner. Which is the day before his birthday, but the occasion you remember it was about his birthday time?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. They left a box of clothing or some gift?

Mrs. Gibson. Oh, it had a shirt and a pair of sox and general things.

Mr. Jenner. These were new?

Mrs. Gibson. Brand new.

Mr. Jenner. A gift?

Mrs. Gibson. A gift; yes. From his wife.

Mr. Jenner. Didn't it seem strange to you at that time with him at the YMCA they didn't ring him up or go by the YMCA and leave this birthday gift?

Mrs. Gibson. She didn't want him to know that she was in Dallas because she didn't want him to know she had baptized the baby.

Mr. Jenner. Did Lee speak with you on that subject?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes; I guess it must have been the next day that he dropped by and I gave him the box, and I didn't say anything about this, but I think he had heard it. I think he had talked to Marina or something on the telephone.

Mr. Jenner. He became aware when he came by the next day, which would be his birthday, that they had——

Mrs. Gibson. I think she told him on the telephone that she had baptized the baby, and he asked me if I knew, and I said yes, and he said, "Why didn't you tell me?" And I said, that it was not any of my business.

144 Mr. Jenner. I am a little bit confused. He came by the next day, that is the day after Mrs. Hall and Marina were there?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And he came by to pick up his birthday gifts?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. At that occasion you didn't say anything to him about the baptism?

Mrs. Gibson. No.

Mr. Jenner. Therefore, at some subsequent occasion——

Mrs. Gibson. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. After that——

Mrs. Gibson. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. There was a discussion?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes; I think it was probably the day after that that he dropped by and he asked me about this. He asked me if they had been there, and I said yes. He says, "Why didn't you tell me?"

Mr. Jenner. Why you didn't tell him what?

Mrs. Gibson. That they had been there and that the baby had been baptized, and I said that it was none of my business.

Mr. Jenner. The thing that confuses me a little bit is he came by and picked up the birthday gift.

Mrs. Gibson. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Nothing was said about baptism.

Mrs. Gibson. No.

Mr. Jenner. On that occasion.

Mrs. Gibson. No, no; I think he——

Mr. Jenner. Therefore, he must have known or inquired as to where you got the birthday gift, correct?

Mrs. Gibson. I don't recall. I think I had some story fixed up for that. Mrs. Hall, I think, told me to tell him that she had been by, or something. I can't remember what it was, but she had some story, you know, for how come I had that.

Mr. Jenner. That would explain that, then.

Mrs. Gibson. Yes; I don't, you know, really remember what was said exactly.

Mr. Jenner. The day following that occasion——

Mrs. Gibson. I did not tell him that I had seen Marina, though.

Mr. Jenner. Is when he approached you on the subject?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Of the baptism and why you hadn't told him?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. What did you say to him?

Mrs. Gibson. I told him it was none of my business, and he wasn't too happy about it.

Mr. Jenner. What did he say about the fact that June had been baptized?

Mrs. Gibson. Not too much. He wasn't really that upset about it. He just said he didn't like the idea, but that was all. He wasn't terribly upset about it.

Mr. Jenner. Mrs. Gibson, was he upset because the baby had been baptized in the Russian Orthodox Church rather than the Lutheran Church, for example?

Mrs. Gibson. No; he was an atheist. He just didn't want anything to do with religion.

Mr. Jenner. Did you and your husband have discussions with him on the subject of religion?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And what were his views on the subject of religion?

Mrs. Gibson. He didn't believe in it. He didn't believe in God. He didn't believe in anything.

Mr. Jenner. And did that discussion occur reasonably often, on more than one occasion?

Mrs. Gibson. Oh, it was mentioned in with politics. You know how that can get. The two subjects you are not supposed to talk about we talked about probably the most.

145 Mr. Jenner. What was your impression about any view or hope or desire or ambition on his part of some future attainment?

Mrs. Gibson. He didn't really talk too much about in the future or what he wanted to do. I don't know what he wanted to do with himself.

Mr. Jenner. Was President Kennedy ever mentioned in the course of the discussions between your husband and Lee?

Mrs. Gibson. Never, never. He wasn't President at the time anyway, was he?

Mr. Jenner. Yes; he was.

Mrs. Gibson. Yes; he was. He had just become President, hadn't he? No, he was never mentioned. Now, the only person ever mentioned pertaining to that was the Governor of Texas.

Mr. Jenner. He became President in 1960.

Mrs. Gibson. It was the Governor of Texas who was mentioned mostly.

Mr. Jenner. Tell us about that.

Mrs. Gibson. First you are going to have to tell me who the Governor was.

Mr. Jenner. Connally.

Mrs. Gibson. Connally. Wasn't that the one that——

Mr. Jenner. That had been Secretary of the Navy.

Mrs. Gibson. That had been Secretary of the Navy, was it? Well, for some reason Lee just didn't like him. I don't know why, but he didn't like him.

Mr. Jenner. Would this refresh your recollection, that the subject of Governor Connally arose in connection with something about Lee's discharge from the Marines?

Mrs. Gibson. I don't recall. I just know Lee never spoke too much about why he left the Marines or anything like that. I don't know. Maybe it was a dishonorable discharge, I don't know. All I know is that it was something he didn't talk about. And there was a reason why he did not like Connally.

Mr. Jenner. Whatever the reason was, he didn't articulate the reason particularly?

Mrs. Gibson. No; he just didn't like him.

Mr. Jenner. But you have the definite impression he had an aversion to Governor Connally?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes; but he never ever said a word about Kennedy.

Mr. Jenner. Did you answer?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes; I did; yes.

Mr. Jenner. Your answer is yes?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. That he did have a definite aversion?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. To Governor Connally as a person?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And did he speak of that reasonably frequently in these discussions?

Mrs. Gibson. No; not really, no. He didn't bring it up frequently.

Mr. Jenner. But he was definite and affirmative about it, was he?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes; he didn't like him.

Mr. Jenner. Was General Walker ever discussed?

Mrs. Gibson. No, no.

Mr. Jenner. Were there any discussions in these political arguments between your husband Gary and Lee Oswald about, oh, the American Civil Liberties Union, the Birch Society, people having, let's say, extreme right viewpoints or left viewpoints?

Mrs. Gibson. Gary was quite a Democrat, and he disliked the Birch Society intensely. So every once in a while they would come into the conversation, being that Gary felt so personal about them. He didn't like them at all. And Gary once in a while would make a comment, "Oh, he is a Bircher," I can't name any particular person, but just somebody in particular.

I think Dallas is a fairly Republican city. No, there was nothing ever about any of the different factions, or right or left wing. Just I know Gary disliked the Birchers. As I recall, I don't think Lee had much to say about them. I think maybe he liked more radical people than we did, you know, the normal straight down the middle or conservative or something.

146 Mr. Jenner. Were there occasions when you saw either of the Oswalds at your father's home?

Mrs. Gibson. No.

Mr. Jenner. Were there occasions when your father and your stepmother brought either of the Oswalds to your apartment other than those you have already testified about?

Mrs. Gibson. Not that I recall, no.

Mr. Jenner. Do you recall seeing Oswald on the day before he moved into the YMCA? He moved into the YMCA on Monday, October 15. Did you see him the previous day, Sunday?

Mrs. Gibson. I don't know. I really don't know.

Mr. Jenner. But you do recall taking him to the YMCA?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes.

Mrs. Jenner. On Monday, the 15th?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes; we might have. I don't know.

Mr. Jenner. Did you go and pick up Oswald at Mrs. Hall's when you took him to the YMCA, or did he just come by your apartment?

Mrs. Gibson. I can't remember where we picked him up, but I know we didn't go to Fort Worth to pick him up, no. It could have been at the bus station.

Mr. Jenner. But you went somewhere to pick him up is your recollection?

Mrs. Gibson. We could have gone somewhere. He could have come to our apartment. I don't recall.

Mr. Jenner. You were aware of Marina staying with the Halls?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Mrs. Hall?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Were you aware of her going to attend to Mrs. Hall; to do that before she actually went to live with Mrs. Hall?

Mrs. Gibson. I might have heard something about it from my father. I don't know.

Mr. Jenner. But you did not hear it from Mrs. Hall?

Mrs. Gibson. I didn't know Mrs. Hall until I met her through Marina.

Mr. Jenner. After Marina——

Mrs. Gibson. When I went to visit there.

Mr. Jenner. That is when you went to visit Marina while she was staying at the Hall's?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes; when Lee and Gary and I went over there. That is the first time I ever met her. But she was very friendly because she knew my father, you know, and so it was a very friendly atmosphere.

Did Mrs. Hall give a fixed time of when Marina stayed with her?

Mr. Jenner. I can't say it was a fixed time, but she testified that it was before she had her automobile accident.

Mrs. Gibson. Well, what I am trying to fix in my mind is when Marina stayed with me, you know.

Mr. Jenner. That is the 3 or 4 days?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes; I can't fix that in my mind at all now. I thought it was when he was at the YMCA and then it couldn't have been because of when the baby was baptized and when his birthday was. But it must have been shortly before that, because it wasn't after that. So it must have been before.

Mr. Jenner. Well, it wasn't on the 14th of October because you took him to the YMCA on the 15th. Was Marina living with you then?

Mrs. Gibson. No; not then, no. But she might have been shortly before that. I believe she was at Mrs. Hall's then, wasn't she. Doesn't she know where she was?

Mr. Jenner. Well, she has got some impressions; yes.

Mrs. Gibson. I hope she does.

Mr. Jenner. I am trying to find out what you recall.

Mrs. Gibson. Well, you know, I can't recall when she was there. I know when she wasn't there now more than I did before, from placing his birthday and the box and that, I know she wasn't there then.

Mr. Jenner. Wasn't where?

Mrs. Gibson. At my place. I know she wasn't there then, because she came147 to visit me from Fort Worth with Mrs. Hall. But how long she had been with Mrs. Hall must not have been too long.

Mr. Jenner. The thing that bothers me, also, Mrs. Gibson, Mrs. Hall entered the hospital on the 18th of October.

Mrs. Gibson. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. That is Lee's birthday. She was at your place the preceding day?

Mrs. Gibson. I think it was that night that she got in the accident. That is why I said it was very shocking when I heard, you know, that she had been in an accident.

Mr. Jenner. And at the time she had her accident, Marina was living with the Halls'?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Was living at Mrs. Hall's home?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Your husband Gary recalls that while Lee was at the YMCA, that he came to visit at your home.

Mrs. Gibson. That is possible.

Mr. Jenner. And his recollection was that Marina was with you at that time.

Mrs. Gibson. Well, she couldn't have been.

Mr. Jenner. All right. Could it be that she stayed with you for a few days after he left the YMCA and before they moved into the Elsbeth Street home or apartment?

Mrs. Gibson. Well, I don't know how it could be possible, because when we moved her from Fort Worth, she was at Mrs. Hall's. Now whether she stayed with me while Mrs. Hall was in New York, she couldn't have because she was, Mrs. Hall was in New York when we moved Marina, see, and Marina was there.

Now, I suppose it is possible that she stayed with us, then, but I remember she stayed with Mrs. Hall after the accident because Mrs. Hall needed her. She couldn't get around. I know she was there before the accident because of the baptism and Lee's birthday. So it leads me to believe she was there the whole time, you know.

Mr. Jenner. Do you recall when the Oswalds left the Mercedes Street apartment?

Mrs. Gibson. No; I don't know when they left that. They moved, from there they moved all her stuff to Mrs. Hall's.

Mr. Jenner. Right from the Mercedes apartment?

Mrs. Gibson. I guess they must have. All the stuff was there.

Mr. Jenner. Do you recall an occasion when your father moved Marina and the baby from the Elsbeth Street apartment to Mrs. Meller's?

Mrs. Gibson. No.

Mr. Jenner. Do you recall the Oswalds living at 214 Neely Street?

Mrs. Gibson. Where was that?

Mr. Jenner. That is just about a block from the Elsbeth Street apartment, which they moved into from the Elsbeth Street apartment.

Mrs. Gibson. That must have been after I left.

Mr. Jenner. Yes; it was.

Mrs. Gibson. No.

Mr. Jenner. You just don't recall anything about that?

Mrs. Gibson. No; I wasn't there.

Mr. Jenner. Now, you do recall Marina staying 3 or 4 days.

Mrs. Gibson. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Can you grasp in your recollection why? What led up to that?

Mrs. Gibson. I think it was the period before she went to Mrs. Hall's. It must have been after Lee lost his job, or quit.

Mr. Jenner. In Fort Worth?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes; and before he got the new one. It must have been then. And I think it was while they were trying to find her a place to live, while he was job hunting.

Mr. Jenner. And before he got his job with Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall?

Mrs. Gibson. It must have been.

Mr. Jenner. On the 12th of October? You see that is a 4-day period, Mrs. Gibson.

148 Mrs. Gibson. Between when he lost his job and got his job?

Mr. Jenner. That is right.

Mrs. Gibson. That is probably where she stayed then. I am not sure.

Mr. Jenner. The last day he worked at Leslie Welding was the 8th of October 1962. He became employed and went to work for Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall on the 12th of October 1962.

Mrs. Gibson. That probably was when she stayed with us, then. I just don't have any recollection of when it was.

Mr. Jenner. Do you have any recollection that she came to stay with you, the reason why? Was she having difficulty with Oswald? Was that the reason, or was it because he was out of work?

Mrs. Gibson. I think it was because he was out of work. I don't think they had any money. I think my father lent them money, didn't he? I don't know. Somebody must have given them money. It was Bouhe, that is who it was who lent them money.

Mr. Jenner. It was only 4 days, Mrs. Gibson.

Mrs. Gibson. No; but he had to have money to get started. He had to have money to stay at the YMCA. He had to have money to get started, and I know who gave him money. George Bouhe did.

Mr. Jenner. Yes; George Bouhe did, there is no question about that.

Mrs. Gibson. Because I recall that. He gave him money, and he also had the debt to pay to the American Embassy.

Mr. Jenner. Do you have any recollection as to where Oswald stayed prior to the time that he went to the YMCA on the 15th of October, that is between the 8th of October and the 15th of October? That is a week.

Mrs. Gibson. No; all I know is he never did stay at our place overnight ever.

Mr. Jenner. Do you recall when you were looking for this address, was it an address on North Beckley?

Mrs. Gibson. It is possible that it was.

Mr. Jenner. Does that stimulate your recollection at all?

Mrs. Gibson. No; it doesn't. I just know that Beckley is near the river.

Mr. Jenner. And you were looking in the area.

Mrs. Gibson. Near the river; yes.

Mr. Jenner. Now, between the 19th of October and the 3d of November, which was the day you picked up Oswald and Marina and the baby and took them to the Elsbeth Street apartment, do you know where Oswald was staying?

Mrs. Gibson. No; but it was probably in that area where I was looking, you know. I am not even sure who I was looking for, but it seems possible. I don't know anybody else in Oak Cliff, you know. If that is anywhere near the Jaggars Co., and I think it is, that is probably where, and who we were looking for.

Mr. Jenner. Was Marina taken to the dentist to your knowledge other than the first period, the first visit in August of 1962?

Mrs. Gibson. I think she might have had another appointment. That possibly could have been the other reason why she stayed with me, but I am not positive. It seems to me you know by the dentist records if she had. I remember she had teeth pulled. Now, how many—and, as I recall, those first appointments led to a later appointment after her mouth had healed. But I am not sure.

Mr. Jenner. Did Marina stay at the Halls' on more than one occasion, that is periods?

Mrs. Gibson. I don't believe so.

Mr. Jenner. Was it just one period?

Mrs. Gibson. I think it was one period.

Mr. Jenner. Did it have anything to do with Mrs. Hall's accident?

Mrs. Gibson. Why Marina stayed there, you mean, or why she left?

Mr. Jenner. Why she went there in the first instance.

Mrs. Gibson. No; Mrs. Hall had not had her accident when Marina first moved in.

Mr. Jenner. Was Mrs. Hall aware that Marina had stayed at your home?

Mrs. Gibson. I think so. In fact, I could almost say positively she must have been aware of it.

Mr. Jenner. What leads you to say that?

Mrs. Gibson. Well, I mean she never knew that Marina and I knew each other.149 She brought her to my place. I had told her that, I believe I myself, told her that Marina had stayed with me. I mean it is just in common conversation that she must have known. Didn't she know?

Mr. Jenner. Including this 3- or 4-day period?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes; she must have known because that was before Marina stayed with her. Does she know?

Mr. Jenner. She didn't mention it in her testimony.

Mrs. Gibson. Am I the last one to testify?

Mr. Jenner. No. Mrs. Gibson, were you aware that Lee Oswald gave your apartment address and your telephone number—when I say your I mean you and your husband—when he was seeking employment in Dallas?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes; he asked Gary's permission and Gary said all right.

Mr. Jenner. That was in your presence?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Was that permission requested before he went to the YMCA on the 15th of October? He obtained his job at Jaggars, remember, on the 12th of October.

Mrs. Gibson. I believe it was before. He said he needed to establish a residence, and a place where people could get in touch with him, where if there were any jobs coming up that they could get in touch with him and call him and he would check with us and we would tell him if there had been any calls for him or messages during the day.

Mr. Jenner. Now, were there any calls or messages?

Mrs. Gibson. No; not that I recall. I don't believe there were.

Mr. Jenner. And do you recall him looking for work during this period? That would be the 9th, 10th, 11th, and 12th of October.

Mrs. Gibson. I really don't know. If he had a job, it doesn't seem that he would be looking for a job.

Mr. Jenner. He was at the Texas Employment Commission on the 9th, 10th, and 11th.

Mrs. Gibson. Then probably he was. And if he gave our address and our phone number; I am sure he was.

Mr. Jenner. But you don't recall where he was staying during that period?

Mrs. Gibson. No.

Mr. Jenner. The 9th, 10th, 11th, 12th, 13th, and 14th?

Mrs. Gibson. No.

Mr. Jenner. Could he have been staying at Hall's?

Mrs. Gibson. Gee, it is possible, but I don't know.

Mr. Jenner. But you do recall that he did stay at the Hall's a good deal or portions of the time that Marina was there?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes; he went there weekends, as I recall, when he was working. He spent the weekends there.

Mr. Jenner. When he was working at Jaggars?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. So when he began to work at Jaggars, which was the 12th of October, up to the 3d of November when you and your husband, Mr. Taylor, took the Oswalds to the Elsbeth Street apartment, he visited at the Hall's on weekends?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. So there was some place he was staying then himself during that period?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes; there must have been.

Mr. Jenner. Did Mrs. Hall live in Fort Worth?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And Fort Worth is approximately 30 miles?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. From Dallas, isn't it?

Mrs. Gibson. He didn't stay in Fort Worth.

Mr. Jenner. He stayed in Dallas?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. But you can't recall still where he stayed in Dallas?

Mrs. Gibson. No; I have no idea.

150 Mr. Jenner. But it is now your definite recollection that he did stay in Dallas?

Mrs. Gibson. Well, I know that——

Mr. Jenner. Excuse me—after he became employed at Jaggars?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes; I will tell you why. Because he told us that he goes by bus Friday night or something to Fort Worth and he'd come back Sunday evening. So it would be my normal assumption, I would say, that he was staying in Dallas at the time.

Mr. Jenner. Had you and your father had some difficulty, some spats between the two of you along about this time?

Mrs. Gibson. No; we had been spatting all our life.

Mr. Jenner. I mean were you on speaking terms?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes; I'd say so.

Mr. Jenner. Do you recall at least one occasion when you picked up Oswald in front of the YMCA?

Mrs. Gibson. No; I don't.

Mr. Jenner. That your husband Gary would go over and pick him up?

Mrs. Gibson. I guess so.

Mr. Jenner. Bring him to your apartment?

Mrs. Gibson. I guess so, or he'd walk. I don't know. I don't believe Gary picked him up there. I believe he walked or took the bus.

Mr. Jenner. What do you recall with respect to Lee's habits of temperance or intemperance, drinking?

Mrs. Gibson. I never saw him take a drink.

Mr. Jenner. Did he smoke?

Mrs. Gibson. I don't think he did.

Mr. Jenner. Did Marina smoke?

Mrs. Gibson. On the sly.

Mr. Jenner. Why?

Mrs. Gibson. Because he objected to smoking, as I recall. He did. He didn't like to see her smoke, and he didn't like to see her wear any makeup.

Mr. Jenner. Did any discussions respecting that occur at your home?

Mrs. Gibson. No; she told me this. Don't ask me how. We just got it across to each other, you know.

Mr. Jenner. How did she communicate with you?

Mrs. Gibson. Well, when two people get together, if you try hard enough you will get your idea across. If you have a dictionary and two hands, you will get the idea across, and that is how we managed to, you know, get our ideas fairly well across most of the time. But we didn't make too great an attempt at speaking because it was so much effort. But I do know this about makeup and smoking.

Mr. Jenner. Were there arguments between them on the subject?

Mrs. Gibson. Oh, I'd say maybe small ones. He didn't like her to wear lipstick and she liked to, things like that. She did like to smoke.

Mr. Jenner. What about his reading habits?

Mrs. Gibson. He read a lot.

Mr. Jenner. How do you know that?

Mrs. Gibson. My father had given him books to read. He was very much interested in them.

Mr. Jenner. Did he have them with him at times when he was at your place?

Mrs. Gibson. One book I think he gave me that my father had asked him to give me or I gave him that my father had asked him to give me, one way or the other, it was called "Animal Farm."

Mr. Jenner. What is that book about?

Mrs. Gibson. It is a satire, I guess. It is about animals, but it is a takeoff on people. Orwell—did he write it?

Mr. Jenner. I think so. What is your recollection as to whether you gave Oswald that book to read or whether your father gave it to him to read?

Mrs. Gibson. One way or the other it got to me. Either my father gave it to me to read and I gave it to Lee or he gave it to Lee to read and then Lee gave it to me. It was one way or the other.

Mr. Jenner. Do you remember any other books?

151 Mrs. Gibson. I think my father gave him some literature. I don't know what it was, though. Oh, "1984" was another book that he read.

Mr. Jenner. Did he indicate that he had read it before?

Mrs. Gibson. I believe that he had. That was by Orwell, too, wasn't it?

Mr. Jenner. Yes; it was. Did he indicate that he had read "1984" when he was a Marine at El Toro, Calif.?

Mrs. Gibson. No; I think he read it again. My father had it and my father read it, and I think Lee said he wanted to read it again.

Mr. Jenner. Did he ever discuss that book in your presence?

Mrs. Gibson. No.

Mr. Jenner. What else do you recall as to the titles of books he read?

Mrs. Gibson. I think he read the "Rise and the Fall of the Third Reich." He read Hitler's, what would it be, autobiography?

Mr. Jenner. "Mein Kampf"?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes; he read the Marx book—what was that, was that the Rise and Fall of the Third Reich? No; what was it, about Marxism?

Mr. Jenner. "Das Kapital"?

Mrs. Gibson. I don't know what it was, but anyway, he read a book that Marx wrote on Marxism, and that is about all I can recall on his literature.

Mr. Jenner. Do you recall some people or a person whose first name was Natasha or Evalina?

Mrs. Gibson. I know Natasha.

Mr. Jenner. How did Natasha come into this?

Mrs. Gibson. First you will have to give me her last name so I am sure I have got the right one.

Mr. Jenner. I can't give it to you.

Mrs. Gibson. You don't have it?

Mr. Jenner. I can't because I don't know.

Mrs. Gibson. You can't because you don't have it? Really?

Mr. Jenner. Really.

Mrs. Gibson. Well, Natasha was a friend of my parents. They got in some numerous squabbles and sometimes they'd part.

Mr. Jenner. Was she a single lady?

Mrs. Gibson. No; she has a husband.

Mr. Jenner. They lived in Dallas?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes; they are Russian. I can't think of her last name for the life of me. Now, I don't know if Natasha knew Lee or not. Natasha was a friend of my father and Jeanne. They got in numerous squabbles. Their friendship would break off and then they'd come back together again after a few months after the squabble had quieted down. Now, whether she knew Lee or not, I don't know.

Mr. Jenner. You mentioned that in one of your interviews, and my query of you is what led you to mention that, Natasha?

Mrs. Gibson. Well, being that she was one of the Russian colony I figured probably she would know them. That is all.

Mr. Jenner. You were speculating?

Mrs. Gibson. Speculating; that is all. Whether she did or not, I have no idea.

Mr. Jenner. In one of your interviews you stated that after Marina had stayed with you, she had moved into the Hall's. Does that refresh your recollection that that 3- or 4-day period was immediately preceding her moving into the Hall's?

Mrs. Gibson. No. When all those questions were given to me, I didn't have much time to think. It was completely by surprise. And when I said that, I meant the first day, because as you found out, those days that I am talking about are extremely vague. Why I don't know, but they are very vague.

Mr. Jenner. Do you recall whether possibly Oswald stayed with his mother in Fort Worth?

Mrs. Gibson. Maybe.

Mr. Jenner. In this period, say, from October 19 through November 3?

Mrs. Gibson. No; I don't believe he did, because he had to be in Dallas. He couldn't commute to Dallas every day. Does his mother say this?

152 Mr. Jenner. No. Do you have any recollection that Oswald stayed in the Elsbeth Street apartment before Marina was moved in?

Mrs. Gibson. No; I don't believe he did.

Mr. Jenner. Did any discussion occur as to whether Oswald had renounced or attempted to renounce his American citizenship?

Mrs. Gibson. No.

Mr. Jenner. Was the subject even discussed?

Mrs. Gibson. Well, it was when he told us about how, you know, the Russians wanted him to give it up.

Mr. Jenner. And he declined to?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Was Marina politically minded?

Mrs. Gibson. No; I wouldn't say so.

Mr. Jenner. But she was religious?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes; I'd say she was.

Mr. Jenner. What was your impression of Oswald as to his intellect?

Mrs. Gibson. I think he was very intelligent.

Mr. Jenner. Was he articulate?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And what about his argumentation?

Mrs. Gibson. Very good. He could make almost anybody believe what he was saying.

Mr. Jenner. He was strong in his convictions?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Unbending?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Do you have any impression of whether he was quick-tempered or prone to violence?

Mrs. Gibson. I think he was very quick tempered.

Mr. Jenner. He flared up, did he, during these arguments?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And other things, with your husband?

Mrs. Gibson. No; not with my husband. With his wife. He got disgusted, I think, with our stupidity, as he called it, which used to infuriate me. I don't particularly like being called stupid, and he used to call us stupid a lot.

Mr. Jenner. Was that because you differed in your view?

Mrs. Gibson. Differed with him.

Mr. Jenner. From him?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes; that was his favorite word, we were stupid, we weren't using our brains. He'd come up with something like, "How could you possibly say such a thing?"

Mr. Jenner. Did you ever pick him up at the Jaggars place of business?

Mrs. Gibson. No.

Mr. Jenner. Your father and your stepmother now reside in Haiti?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. When did they go to Haiti?

Mrs. Gibson. Last year some time.

Mr. Jenner. June of 1963.

Mrs. Gibson. I don't know.

Mr. Jenner. Have you seen your father or your stepmother since then?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes; I saw them a couple of weeks ago.

Mr. Jenner. When they were here to testify, they dropped by to see you, did they?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Your husband Donald Gibson is a native-born American?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. In an interview on December 3, 1963, you are reported to have said that Lee Oswald occasionally came to your apartment, of yourself and your husband, and although Marina stayed at your apartment, only about 2 weeks, Oswald continued to visit on occasions. Does that refresh your recollection that this stay of Marina at your home was longer than 3 to 4 days?

Mrs. Gibson. It must have been misunderstood. If I had said 2 weeks I must153 have meant in all, meaning putting all your days together, because I never would have said 2 weeks meaning a solid period of time of 2 weeks.

Mr. Jenner. I think that is about all. I neglected to do this, Mrs. Gibson. You received a letter from Mr. Rankin, did you not?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes; I did.

Mr. Jenner. General counsel for the Commission, with which he enclosed a copy of the legislation, Senate Joint Resolution 137, authorizing the creation of this Commission?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. A copy of President Johnson's Executive Order No. 11130 which created the Commission?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And fixed its scope and its powers and its duties and responsibilities, which in general are to investigate the circumstances surrounding leading up to, and involving the assassination of President John Fitzgerald Kennedy?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And, also, a copy of the rules and regulations of the Commission under which depositions are taken?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And you understand from all those papers that the Commission is interviewing people who had, fortunately, or unfortunately, touched the life of Lee Harvey Oswald and others?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And we had understood and as has now been revealed you did have a connection with or some connection with the Oswalds?

Mrs. Gibson. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Which you have now elucidated.

I am Albert E. Jenner, Jr., one of the members of the legal staff of the Commission, and Mr. Mosk, who was present earlier, likewise is a member. Now, having in mind the objects and purposes and duties of the Commission, is there anything that occurs to you that you would like to add that you think would be helpful to the Commission in its investigation of this subject?

Mrs. Gibson. No.

Mr. Jenner. All right, that is all I have, and I appreciate very much your coming here today. I know it is a considerable inconvenience.


AFFIDAVIT OF RUTH HYDE PAINE

The following affidavit was executed by Ruth Hyde Paine on June 24, 1964.

AFFIDAVIT

PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION
ON THE ASSASSINATION OF
PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY

State of Texas,
County of Dallas, ss:

Ruth Hyde Paine, being affirmed, says:

1. I reside at 2515 West 5th Street, Irving, Texas. I am the Ruth Hyde Paine who testified before the Commission on March 18, 19 and 20, 1964, and gave testimony by deposition in Washington, D.C. at the offices of the Commission on Saturday, March 21, 1964, and gave further testimony by deposition in my home the evening of Monday, March 23, 1964.

2. On the occasion of Saturday, November 9, 1963, about which I testified before the Commission, when I took Marina and Lee Oswald in my station wagon to the Texas Automobile Drivers Bureau Station in the Oak Cliff section of Dallas, Texas, to enable Lee Oswald to make application for an automobile driver's learner's permit, each of my two children and both of the Oswald children, June and Rachel, accompanied us.

3. Upon our arrival at the Automobile Drivers License Bureau, which was154 located in a shopping center area in Oak Cliff, we discovered that the Automobile Drivers License Bureau was closed. All of us went down the street to a ten cent store which was located approximately three doors down the street from the Automobile Drivers License Bureau Station. We entered the store. I purchased some child panties for my children and Marina selected and Lee paid for an infant's pacifier.

4. After we made the purchases, all of us returned to my station wagon, entered it, and I drove directly to my home in Irving, Texas. Upon arrival there, all of us entered my home where we remained throughout the balance of that day and evening. Marina and Lee Oswald and their children were present in my home throughout the two following days and evenings, November 10 and 11, 1963. Lee Oswald returned to his work at the Texas School Book Depository Tuesday morning, November 12, 1963. I was present in my home throughout November 10 and 11, 1963, except as described in paragraph 13.

5. During the course of my testimony by deposition in Washington, D.C. on Saturday, March 21, 1964, Mr. Jenner examined me with respect to the various entries in my calendar diary, Commission Exhibit No. 401, for the period commencing and following September 24, 1963, including, in particular, those entries respecting baby and child clinic appointments for June Oswald and Rachel Oswald, in clinics in Irving, Texas, and in Dallas, Texas, as well as other appointments for June Oswald. On all occasions following Marina's return to my home from Parkland Hospital on October 22, 1963, following the birth of her daughter Rachel on October 20, 1963, when baby clinic, dental and other medical and physical attention appointments for either of Marina's children were made, and about which I have heretofore testified, I drove to the clinic or doctor's office in my station wagon accompanied by each of my children and by Marina and both of her children. This was so irrespective of which of Marina's children was to receive medical or other attention.

6. There were a number of occasions subsequent to September 24, 1963, on which Marina and both of her children accompanied me when I drove in my station wagon to shops, grocery stores, etc., in and about Irving, Texas, to do limited shopping or purchase food stuffs. On each of these occasions, we were also accompanied by my children. Understandably, Marina desired "to get out of the house" and visit with me around Irving, Texas, when convenient to me. I understood this and often went out of my way to invite her to come with me. She always brought her daughter June and after the birth of her daughter Rachel, also brought her.

7. On none of the above occasions did we shop in or visit or enter any furniture store. This includes the Furniture Mart, a store that was located at 149 East Irving Boulevard, Irving, Texas, which I now understand was owned and operated during its existence by one Edith Whitworth.

8. There were only two occasions during all the period in the Fall of 1963 that I took Marina and Lee together in my station wagon to Dallas, Texas, or anywhere in Irving, Texas. One occasion was a trip to Dallas, Texas, the morning of November 9, 1963, which I have mentioned above. (The other is described in paragraph 14.) I do not know Mrs. Whitworth. I never visited her place of business, nor did I ever drive Lee Oswald or Marina to that place of business; and, to the best of my knowledge and recollection, Marina was never at or in that place of business with or without Lee Oswald during the period she resided in my home in the Fall of 1963.

9. At no time after Marina and I and our children arrived in Irving, Texas, on September 24, 1963, from New Orleans, Louisiana, did I ever take Lee Oswald or Marina Oswald to the Irving Sports Shop, which is located at 221 East Irving Boulevard, Irving, Texas. I was quite aware during all of this period of Marina's activities and where she was. I know of no occasion when either she or Lee Oswald visited either the Furniture Mart or the Irving Sports Shop.

10. There was no occasion during the period Marina resided with me in the Fall of 1963, of which I was aware or now recollect, that Marina rode either in my station wagon or any other automobile or means of conveyance with Lee Oswald at the wheel. Neither the Irving Sports Shop nor Mrs. Whitworth nor Dyal Ryder was ever mentioned in my presence by either of the Oswalds.

11. I never drove Lee Oswald, with or without Marina, to any area or place155 in or about either Dallas, Fort Worth, or Irving, Texas, to enable Lee Oswald to engage in rifle practice. I did not know until the afternoon of November 22, 1963, that he possessed or owned a firearm of any kind or character. At no time prior to November 25, 1963, did I know or had I heard of anybody by the name of Dyal Ryder.

12. Lee Oswald was not in my home and to the best of my knowledge was not in Irving, Texas, at any time on November 6 or 7, 1963. My recollection is clear that on each of those days, as well as November 8, 1963, Marina and her two children, June and Rachel, were present in my home day and night. Lee Oswald arrived at my home from Dallas, Texas, between 5:30 p.m. and 6:00 p.m. on November 8, 1963, for his customary week-end visit, which as to this particular week-end was to extend over through Armistice Day, November 11, 1963. Except for the trip to Dallas, Texas, on November 9, 1963, which I have described above, Lee Oswald remained in my home from the time of his arrival, the late afternoon of November 8, 1963, until he departed for Dallas, Texas, in the early morning of November 12, 1963.

13. I was not present in my home for part of the day on November 11, 1963. As I testified, I made a trip that day, which was Armistice Day and a holiday, to Dallas, Texas. I was gone from approximately 9:00 A.M. to 2:00 P.M. Not wishing to burden Lee and Marina with my children, I had them stay at my neighbors the Craigs. Marina and Lee Oswald and their children were in my home when I left and were there when I returned. Based upon my conversation with Marina and Lee Oswald, and my understanding of their plans for the day, it is my clear opinion that all of them remained in my home during my trip to and from Dallas.

14. There was one occasion in addition to the occasion of Nov. 9, 1963, which I have described above, that I drove Marina and Lee in my station wagon to Dallas, Texas. On Monday, October 14, which was the day before Lee Oswald obtained a position at the Texas School Book Depository, I drove him to Dallas, Texas. We were accompanied by Marina and her child June as well as by my children. I testified about this event. We left Lee Oswald off in Dallas at Ross Avenue near LaMarr. I then took my typewriter to a shop in Dallas for repair and Marina and I and our children returned to Irving, Texas.

Signed this 24th day of June 1964.

(S)Ruth Hyde Paine,
Ruth Hyde Paine.

AFFIDAVIT OF M. WALDO GEORGE

The following affidavit was executed by M. Waldo George on June 12, 1964.

AFFIDAVIT

PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION
ON THE ASSASSINATION OF
PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY

State of Texas,
County of Dallas, ss:

M. Waldo George, 6769 Inverness Street, Dallas, being duly sworn says:

1. I am the office manager of Tucker Manning Insurance Company. I am the owner of the premises at 214 Neeley Street, Dallas, Texas, consisting of two apartments, one upper and one lower. In the latter part of January 1963 the upper apartment became vacant and I posted it "For Rent" by means of an appropriate sign in the yard in front of the premises.

2. On March 2, 1963, I was advised by Mrs. George that an individual by the name of "Oswald" had inquired about renting the apartment. Later that day I met the individual who identified himself as Lee H. Oswald. I advised him that the rent for the apartment was $60 per month, and he rented the apartment on a month-to-month basis, paying me $60 in cash for one month's rent in advance.

3. On April 1, 1963, I collected $60 in cash from Oswald, covering rent for the month of April 1963 to and including May 2, 1963.

4. Shortly after this occasion the downstairs tenants, Mr. and Mrs. George B.156 Gray, called me and informed me that the man in the upstairs apartment was beating his wife. I made no inquiry into this subject matter.

5. Two or three days later, myself and Mrs. George called on the Oswalds in their apartment and invited them to attend Gaston Avenue Baptist Church with us. He informed me and Mrs. George that he attended the Russian Orthodox Church although they were not regular in their attendance, because they had to depend on their friends to take them.

6. During this visit Oswald stated that he had met his wife while he was serving in the United States Marines as a guard at the United States Embassy in Russia, and had married his wife in Russia. I made direct inquiry of him as to whether he had had any difficulty in getting out of Russia with his wife and he said that he had had no difficulty whatsoever.

7. Neither myself or Mrs. George saw Oswald again at any time thereafter. Oswald did not pay rent for the succeeding rental period of May 2 through June 2, 1963. Because my attention was diverted by other matters, I did not go by the apartment to collect the rent for that period until several days after May 2, 1963. When I arrived at the apartment I found it vacant.

Signed this 12th day of June 1964 at Dallas Texas.

(S)M. Waldo George,
M. Waldo George.

TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM KIRK STUCKEY

The testimony of William Kirk Stuckey was taken at 9:35 a.m., on June 6, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. Jenner. Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, in your deposition which you are about to give?

Mr. Stuckey. I do.

Mr. Jenner. Be seated. State your full name?

Mr. Stuckey. William Kirk Stuckey.

Mr. Jenner. I regret, Mr. Stuckey, that we have to inconvenience you to have you back to have your deposition taken again. But through some happenstance in New Orleans, the transcript of your deposition never went beyond the U.S. attorney's office apparently, and we appreciate your willingness to come up here and be with us today so that I can depose you again. When I took your deposition before you had received a letter from Mr. Rankin, had you not?

Mr. Stuckey. No.

Mr. Jenner. I guess I called you when I was down there, didn't I?

Mr. Stuckey. Yes; that is correct.

Mr. Jenner. And I explained to you at that time, the time before when I took your deposition, however, the legislation under which the Commission was authorized and the Executive order of the President creating the Commission and the rules and regulations of the Commission on the taking of depositions?

Mr. Stuckey. Yes; I understand that.

Mr. Jenner. Thank you. In effect, we want to inquire of you in particular with respect to the course of events in which you interviewed Lee Harvey Oswald while he was in New Orleans in 1963 at some radio broadcasts which you, in your professional capacity, that is, your professional business, had organized, had put on, and you had some fairly extended acquaintance with Oswald in a professional sense.

Mr. Stuckey. Yes. Would you like me to tell you from the very first?

Mr. Jenner. Well, I think for the very first, for the purpose of the record, identify yourself, who you were then and who you are now, and your profession and business and associations.

Mr. Stuckey. Fine. At present I am employed at Tulane University as a special writer. In this capacity I write a syndicated column on higher education which Tulane distributes to 85 newspapers throughout the country. In August 1963 I was a broadcaster with WDSU Radio, New Orleans. This is157 the NBC station. I had a weekly 5-minute radio program on economic and political developments in Latin America. I had been in this particular specialty for about 2 years previous. Prior to that I was a columnist with New Orleans States Item, with an interest in Latin America. As a result I had been looking for a long time for representatives of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee in that area.

Mr. Jenner. If you would excuse me a second, would you give me your formal education because, as I recall in taking your deposition in New Orleans, you acquired some interest in South American relations which led you into looking for something on this Fair Play for Cuba Committee.

Mr. Stuckey. Yes. Formal education was a B.S. degree in journalism from Southern Methodist University in Dallas. After graduation I went into the Marine Corps and completed 2 years of service, after which I spent some 8 months in Central America and Mexico traveling around, essentially hitchhiking, some walking, some third-class bus riding, in which I acquired a good deal of Spanish and an interest in the countries.

Mr. Jenner. What is a third-class bus?

Mr. Stuckey. That is where the goats and chickens aren't on top; they are in there with you.

Mr. Jenner. I see.

Mr. Stuckey. After I returned I went into the newspaper business.

Mr. Jenner. Excuse me, how old are you?

Mr. Stuckey. Thirty-two.

Mr. Jenner. You are married?

Mr. Stuckey. Yes; and——

Mr. Jenner. Do you have a family and you live in New Orleans?

Mr. Stuckey. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. What is your address?

Mr. Stuckey. 2317 State Street, and I have two children. I went into the newspaper business after returning from Latin America, working largely as a political reporter for a number of years.

Mr. Jenner. Were you giving attention to any particular phase of politics?

Mr. Stuckey. Local government?

Mr. Jenner. Thinking of it in the higher sense—local government.

Mr. Stuckey. You mean in a higher sense, in a subject category?

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mr. Stuckey. I was interested particularly in planning and zoning.

Mr. Jenner. Did you acquire also an interest in South American relations?

Mr. Stuckey. Yes; well, I had this interest, but I had no opportunity to exercise this interest in my work until the New Orleans States Item made me a columnist. This was in February 1962 when I started my column, and this extended on until April, I believe it was, 1963.

Mr. Jenner. What was the title of that column?

Mr. Stuckey. New Orleans and the Americas. That was really my first professional involvement in Latin American affairs. After I left the paper, doing public relations, I acquired this radio program, this radio broadcast, which was a very short thing. It was largely to keep my name in front of the public in this capacity. And——

Mr. Jenner. That was a broadcast program?

Mr. Stuckey. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. It was put on regularly, was it?

Mr. Stuckey. Once a week.

Mr. Jenner. And it is the NBC station down there?

Mr. Stuckey. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Radio and television or just radio?

Mr. Stuckey. Radio.

Mr. Jenner. That program had a title?

Mr. Stuckey. Yes; Latin Listening Post.

Mr. Jenner. Tell us in general the character of that program and to what you were directing your attention.

Mr. Stuckey. Politics and economics. I inquired a bit about the Cuban situation. I had a number of programs that I think you would classify as news158 features. They didn't particularly have current events value, but they were interesting topics, and I just went and talked about them. I talked about social welfare programs in Uruguay, the Mexican Revolution; Central American common market; the character of the Latin American university student, this sort of thing.

Occasionally, when I had a live one, when I heard there was somebody in town who was a Latin bigwig, I would bring him on and we would talk whatever he wanted to talk about.

Mr. Jenner. How did you organize those programs?

Mr. Stuckey. Well——

Mr. Jenner. Did you have any preliminary discussions with the people you were going to have on your programs?

Mr. Stuckey. Yes, yes; sometimes I took up to 3 to 4 days to prepare a 5-minute broadcast.

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mr. Stuckey. Actually it is 5 minutes which demands about 700 words, which was just about as long or longer than the column that I used to write, so these columns, 700 words, which would run about a column and a half of type in the paper, consumed within a 5-minute period on the broadcast. Anything else along that line?

Mr. Jenner. I think that covers it generally. Tell us the nature of your work with Tulane University.

Mr. Stuckey. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. You became associated with Tulane when?

Mr. Stuckey. In January, January 6.

Mr. Jenner. Of this year?

Mr. Stuckey. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. What is the nature of that work?

Mr. Stuckey. I write a syndicated column on higher education. The column is called Dimension in Education. We deal with all manner of events and affairs affecting higher education, and sometimes things that do not affect higher education. I roam the spectrum of interest in the things. It is extremely interesting.

I sometimes write about such things as the Common Market, the humanities versus science, all this sort of thing, all the current controversies we get into.

Mr. Jenner. Is that in the nature of public relations work?

Mr. Stuckey. Yes; very soft shell public relations. Sometimes we don't even mention Tulane. It is just that I think probably Tulane just wants to be established as a fount of wisdom in this particular field, and that is why they print these reports.

Mr. Jenner. During the year 1963, did an event occur, a series of events occur, in which you became acquainted with a man by the name of Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. Stuckey. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. In your own words, taking it from the very first instant of the course of events, perhaps even before you met this man, tell us in your own words, and it doesn't have to be chronological, but the way you would put it out, about it.

Mr. Stuckey. Fine. As I told you before, as a Latin American columnist and one interested in affairs, I had been looking for some time in New Orleans for representatives of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee. There haven't been any. Most of the organizations that I had contact with in my work——

Mr. Jenner. Excuse me—how did you learn about the Fair Play for Cuba Committee?

Mr. Stuckey. I was going to get to that.

Mr. Jenner. All right.

Mr. Stuckey. Most of the organizations that I had contact with were refugee organizations, very violently anti-Castro groups, and there were a number of them in New Orleans. These people were news sources for me also. I used them quite frequently. One day, I think it was in August, the latter part of July of 1963, I was in the bank, and I ran across a refugee friend of mine by the name of Carlos Bringuier. Bringuier told me——

159 Mr. Jenner. Excuse me—identify Mr. Bringuier.

Mr. Stuckey. Mr. Bringuier at that time was the New Orleans delegate to the Revolutionary Student Directorate which was an anti-Castro group with headquarters in Miami. He also ran a clothing store called Casa Roca. He was an attorney in Havana before the Revolution, the Cuban Revolution of 1958, and had been very active ever since I had known him in New Orleans in anti-Castro activity. I had interviewed him on a number of occasions in connection with Cuban current events. Mr. Bringuier ran into me in the bank, and I spoke to him and he said that a representative of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee had appeared in New Orleans and that he had had an encounter with him shortly before.

Mr. Jenner. That interested you?

Mr. Stuckey. Yes, very much, very much, because I knew something of the reputation of this group. I regarded them as being about the leading pro-Castro organization in this country, a propaganda organ for the Castro forces, and I had done a considerable amount of reading of congressional testimony, articles, and this sort of thing about their activities. Mr. Bringuier said he had had an encounter with a young man who was representing the Fair Play for Cuba Committee in New Orleans.

Mr. Jenner. Excuse me—you had known Bringuier and you had had contact with him; had he ever been on your program up to this moment that you speak of?

Mr. Stuckey. No; he had never been on my program, but, as a newspaperman, I had contacted him quite frequently for information.

Mr. Jenner. Proceed.

Mr. Stuckey. He told me that—this is in the bank—a few days before, I don't recall exactly——

Mr. Jenner. This was a chance meeting?

Mr. Stuckey. This was a chance meeting with Mr. Bringuier. I was cashing my paycheck and Bringuier told me a few days before he had run into this fellow in his store, this Casa Roca—this young man had approached him.

Mr. Jenner. A young man had come in?

Mr. Stuckey. A young man. At the time he had mentioned no name. If he had, it wouldn't have made any difference to me because the name meant nothing.

He said a young man came in, introduced himself and said he was a veteran of the Marine Corps, he had just gotten out, and that he was very disturbed by this Cuban situation and he wanted to do something about hurting Castro, or trying to change the regime. He, in some way——

Mr. Jenner. This was something this up-to-the-moment unnamed young man had said to Mr. Bringuier?

Mr. Stuckey. Had said to Mr. Bringuier as Bringuier recounted it to me later. I am telling you Bringuier's story now.

Mr. Jenner. Yes; I wanted to make clear that you were.

Mr. Stuckey. Right. Now, this young man said somehow he knew Bringuier was connected with the Revolutionary Student Directorate, how, I don't know. But, at any rate, as I said, he offered his services.

Then he presented a Marine Corps Handbook to Bringuier. He said, "This might help you out in your guerrilla activities and such. This is my own personal Marine Corps Handbook", which Bringuier accepted. That was the gist of the conversation. Bringuier told me that sometime after that, I don't recall exactly how long it was, he was walking on Canal Street, the main street of New Orleans, about a block away from his store, and he ran into this young man again. This time he was distributing literature, handbills, and the handbills said, "Hands Off Cuba", and on the handbill it said, "Join the Fair Play for Cuba Committee in New Orleans, Charter Member Branch".

It was this same young man. Bringuier, who was a rather excitable fellow, and he couldn't understand why this fellow was now distributing pro-Castro literature whereas a short time before he had posed as an anti-Castro man. So Bringuier got into a shouting match with him on the street corner, and I think some blows were exchanged, I am not sure.

Mr. Jenner. Bringuier is again telling you this?

Mr. Stuckey. This is what Bringuier is telling me, because I did not witness160 this. At any rate, regardless of what happened, I don't know the exact sequence of events, the police arrived on the scene and took everybody down to the jail. Oswald was booked for disturbing the peace, and I think later fined $10, and let go. Well, this is what Bringuier told me in the bank.

Mr. Jenner. I may assume up to this moment you had not seen anything in the newspapers on this subject?

Mr. Stuckey. No; I hadn't. There wouldn't have been anything in the newspaper had it not been in my column, and my column at that time did not exist.

Mr. Jenner. I see.

Mr. Stuckey. So I mentioned to Bringuier that I was interested in locating this fellow and talking to him. Bringuier gave me his name.

Mr. Jenner. Do you recall that this was the early part of August?

Mr. Stuckey. Or the latter part of July, I am not really sure. It wasn't—I would say probably the early part of August. It was a Friday. I can tell you that.

Mr. Jenner. It was August 9, 1963.

Mr. Stuckey. That is quite possible. So I inquired as to the name and the address of this fellow, and telephone, if any, and Bringuier said his name was Lee Oswald, and he lived on Magazine Street, somewhere in the 4000 block, I forget the exact address, and he had no telephone. This was a Friday. My program is on a Saturday.

I decided that early the next morning I would go by this address and ask Oswald if he would appear on my program. So very early, it was about 8 o'clock the following—wait a minute, I am losing some chronology. This was not the next Saturday. Then some time elapsed, and, at any rate, it was August 17 when I went by his house. I forget now exactly why this time did elapse, but it did.

Mr. Jenner. Had he again distributed handbills?

Mr. Stuckey. To my knowledge; no. He may have. He may have. But, of course, I had no particular interest in it, and the papers were not carrying stories about it, and I, well, just had no contact with him at all.

I did not meet him until August 17, at which time I went by his house on Magazine Street to ask him to appear on my program. This was early in the morning, about 8 o'clock. I went early because I wanted to get him before he left.

Mr. Jenner. This was a Saturday?

Mr. Stuckey. It is a Saturday. I knocked on the door, and this young fellow came out, without a shirt. He had a pair of Marine Corps fatigue trousers on. I asked him, "Are you Lee Oswald?" And he said "Yes."

I introduced myself and I told him I would like to have him on my program that night. So he asked me in on the porch. This was a screened porch, and I had a very brief chat. He said he would ask me inside for some coffee but that his wife and his baby were sleeping so we had better talk on the porch.

Mr. Jenner. Describe this Magazine Street place. Were you able to find it easily?

Mr. Stuckey. Yes; no problem. It was on the side of the house—or the entrance was on the side.

Mr. Jenner. Was on the side and somewhat back from the front?

Mr. Stuckey. Yes; it was facing the street; it wasn't facing the side of the property, but it was offset, to the rear.

Mr. Jenner. Frame house?

Mr. Stuckey. Yes; it was a frame house, as well as I recall.

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mr. Stuckey. So we had a few cursory remarks there about the organization. He showed me his membership card to the Fair Play for Cuba Committee, which was interesting, and it identified him as the secretary of the New Orleans chapter of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee, and it was signed by A. Hidell, president.

Mr. Jenner. Was that president or secretary?

Mr. Stuckey. President, A. Hidell. He was identified on the card, as I recall, as the secretary.

Mr. Jenner. That is, Oswald?

161 Mr. Stuckey. Oswald; yes. It was a card on which there was a handwritten—it said "Mr." and then a blank, and a handwritten name "Lee Oswald" was in the center of the card. In the lower right-hand corner it was signed by A. Hidell, president.

Mr. Jenner. Was this name familiar to you?

Mr. Stuckey. No; as a matter of fact, I would like to explain this, that the name meant nothing to me at all, and the name never occurred to me again, I never thought of the name again, until after the assassination when Mr. Henry Wade of Dallas on television on a Sunday, I believe, mentioned that Oswald purchased a rifle from a Chicago mail-order house and had used the name A. Hidell in purchasing the rifle. When he said "A. Hidell" it hit me like, it was like a light bulb over my head, I recalled the name. Otherwise I would never have remembered the name.

Oswald gave me some pieces of literature at this time. There were several—I will mention them if you would like.

Mr. Jenner. I wish you would.

Mr. Stuckey. There were two speeches by Fidel Castro. One was "The Revolution Must Be a School of Unfettered Thought." Another was "Bureaucracy and Sectarianism." There was a pamphlet by Jean Paul Sartre, and this pamphlet was called "Ideology and Revolution."

There was a pamphlet called "The Crime Against Cuba," by Corliss Lamont. I believe that is all the literature that he gave me at that time. I got some subsequently to that which, incidentally, Mr. Jenner. I promised you that pamphlet the last time I saw you, and I couldn't find it, but I have since found it, and I brought it up for you. I will give it to you now before I forget.

Mr. Jenner. Yes. I will show you what is marked Garner Exhibit No. 1 and ask you if you recognize the person shown on that photograph.

Mr. Stuckey. Yes; that is Lee Oswald.

Mr. Jenner. Does it look like him as of the time that you interviewed him on Saturday, August 17?

Mr. Stuckey. Almost exactly. He was dressed almost in exactly the same way, with a short-sleeved dress shirt, and a tie, and a black looseleaf notebook under his arm which apparently he used as a holder for literature.

Mr. Jenner. I hand you a series of exhibits, Pizzo Exhibits Nos. 453-A, 453-B, and 453-C. Would you examine those and tell me whether your friend, Mr. Bringuier, is shown on any of those photographs?

Mr. Stuckey. He is not there.

Mr. Jenner. You were referring to Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-A; he is not on that one?

Mr. Stuckey. No. Pizzo Exhibit 453-C is of Oswald alone.

Mr. Jenner. Pizzo Exhibit 453-C is a picture of Oswald?

Mr. Stuckey. Yes. Pizzo Exhibit 453-B is also Oswald, but Bringuier is not in the picture.

Mr. Jenner. All right. We will mark the pamphlet you have brought with you, which is entitled "The Cuban 'Episode' and the American Press: April 9-23, 1961" as Stuckey Exhibit No. 1.

(The pamphlet was marked Stuckey Exhibit No. 1 for identification.)

Mr. Jenner. Handing you Stuckey Exhibit No. 1, being a 15-page pamphlet—I guess it is 16 including the back cover—is that one of the pamphlets that he handed to you and exhibited to you on August 17 and Saturday morning when you interviewed him in his home?

Mr. Stuckey. No; this is not one. I received this pamphlet that night when he showed up at the radio station.

Mr. Jenner. We will go into it later on, but I think for purposes of identification, was it a pamphlet that he gave you?

Mr. Stuckey. Yes; he gave it to me.

Mr. Jenner. Prior to the radio broadcast you are about to describe?

Mr. Stuckey. Immediately prior to that. Incidentally, I requested all the literature that he had.

Mr. Jenner. You did?

Mr. Stuckey. Yes; and he gave me everything he could find that morning162 which were the four or five pieces I have already described. Then at night he says, "Look, I found this also", and he brought this.

Mr. Jenner. Meaning Stuckey Exhibit No. 1?

Mr. Stuckey. Stuckey Exhibit No. 1.

Mr. Jenner. I offer Stuckey Exhibit No. 1 in evidence. All right, we had you still on Saturday morning talking with him at his home on Magazine Street.

Mr. Stuckey. Right. We discussed literature, his literature, the pieces of information I have already described. He showed me the Fair Play for Cuba Committee membership card. I asked him about the membership of this organization, and he said there were quite a few, quite a few members. The figure 12 or 13 sticks in my head. I don't really recall why now. There were that many officers or something like that, 12 or 13 people he mentioned that he was responsible to, or active workers, something like that, although I guess I shouldn't mention it until I have a more coherent idea of why he used that.

Mr. Jenner. Just give your best recollection of what he said on that occasion.

Mr. Stuckey. Right. Also as I recall, he was very vehement, insisting he was not the president, but was the secretary, and that was the occasion in which he pulled out his card showing that he was the secretary, not the president, and this other gentleman, Hidell, was the president.

Mr. Jenner. Did that strike you in any special way that he was apparently careful to point out to you that he was secretary instead of president?

Mr. Stuckey. No; it made no impression on me, none whatsoever. It seemed logical. He appeared to be a very logical, intelligent fellow, and the only strange thing about him was his organization. This was, seemed, incongruous to me that a group of this type—or he should associate with a group of this type, because he did not seem the type at all, or at least what I have in my mind as the type.

I would like to mention this. I was arrested by his cleancutness. I didn't expect this at all. I expected a folk-singer type, something of that kind, somebody with a beard and sandals, and he said—I found this fellow, instead I found this fellow who was neat and clean, watched himself pretty well.

Mr. Jenner. You mean he watched his——

Mr. Stuckey. He seemed to be very conscious about all of his words, all of his movements, sort of very deliberate. He was very deliberate with his words, and struck me as being rather articulate. He was the type of person you would say would inspire confidence. This was the incongruity that struck me, the fact that this type of person should be with this organization. That is the gist of the first meeting.

I asked him to meet me at the radio station that afternoon about 5 o'clock for the interview, and he agreed.

Mr. Jenner. This was to be an interview preliminary to a broadcast?

Mr. Stuckey. Well, this was to be a recorded interview prior to the broadcast.

Mr. Jenner. Why would you do that?

Mr. Stuckey. To avoid the possibility of errors. It is a risky business going on live. You know, you never know when you are going to slip up and, particularly, with somebody as controversial as a representative of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee you want to know what you have in hand before you put it on.

During that day I thought quite a bit about Oswald before he arrived at the station for the interview, and I was interested in his articulateness and in discussing this organization, so I had decided during the day that instead of just interviewing him for 5 minutes, which was the length of my program, that I would just let him talk as long as he wanted to.

Mr. Jenner. In the private interview with you?

Mr. Stuckey. Yes; but record it.

Mr. Jenner. Yes; of course.

Mr. Stuckey. Yes. And then I thought after doing that I could take some excerpts out for a 5-minute program, and then ask the management at the station if they would be interested in running the whole thing in toto as a demonstration of the line of this organization. So this was the decision I made before the broadcast.

163 I drew up a lengthy list of questions, and then I met him that afternoon about 5 o'clock at the studios of WDSU, 520 Royal Street, New Orleans.

Mr. Jenner. That is in the French Quarter, is it not?

Mr. Stuckey. In the French Quarter. He was dressed exactly as he is shown in this picture.

Mr. Jenner. Garner Exhibit No. 1.

Mr. Stuckey. Which is Exhibit No. 1, short-sleeved dress shirt with a tie, a black looseleaf notebook under his arm. There were no preliminary remarks particularly. We just went immediately into the studio. It was at this point that he gave me this pamphlet.

Mr. Jenner. Stuckey Exhibit No. 1.

Mr. Stuckey. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Is that correct?

Mr. Stuckey. That is correct. And we were seated—this conversation was witnessed or listened to by an engineer in WDSU by the name of Al Campin.

Mr. Jenner. Was that prearranged?

Mr. Stuckey. Well, you have to have an engineer to record it.

Mr. Jenner. I see.

Mr. Stuckey. He just happened to be there operating the equipment, but he was, I mean he was, there, as a witness, and was greatly interested in it, because like me he hadn't run across too many of these birds, and we were curious to see how they thought and why.

So at that time then we began a long rambling recorded interview which lasted 37 minutes, covered a wide range of subjects.

Naturally, a lot of the subjects had to do with Cuba. We discussed the problem of the refugees leaving Cuba, we discussed as to whether or not Castro was an independent ruler of an independent nation or whether he was merely the head of a colony which was the line that I took.

Mr. Jenner. Head of a colony?

Mr. Stuckey. Yes; a Russian colony, Cuba. This was the line that I took in this questioning.

We discussed the economic situation in Cuba, as to what had happened to the economy since Castro took over. We discussed a few abstracts. I asked him the definition of "democracy," which was interesting to me.

Mr. Jenner. Do you have a transcript of that interview?

Mr. Stuckey. I do.

Mr. Jenner. Have you brought one with you?

Mr. Stuckey. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. May I have it, please?

Mr. Stuckey. Incidentally, I have a letter here that you may or may not be interested in. Father Clancy is the chairman of the political science department at Loyola University in New Orleans. I sent him this transcript as a Catholic and as a political science man just to see what his opinion was, and he went much stronger than I ever did after reading that, but the last paragraph, I thought, was interesting, and I thought you might be interested in reading the letter.

Mr. Jenner. The witness has furnished me a 13-page document on light-weight, green-tinted paper. The first page is entitled "Transcript of Taped Interview Between William K. Stuckey and Lee Harvey Oswald, August 17, 1963," and the last page of which, the last three lines of which, read:

"STUCKEY: Tonight we have been talking with Lee H. Oswald, secretary of The Fair Play for Cuba Committee, New Orleans," et cetera. "(Standard close.)"

I wonder if you would be good enough, Mr. Stuckey, to initial each of these 13 pages. We will mark this as Stuckey Exhibit No. 2. I suggest you put your initials at the bottom.

(The document was marked Stuckey Exhibit No. 2 for identification.)

Mr. Jenner. The witness has now placed his initials at the foot of each of the 13 pages of the transcript.

When and how was this document prepared, Stuckey Exhibit No. 2?

Mr. Stuckey. I typed it.

Mr. Jenner. You typed it as you were listening to your tape?

164 Mr. Stuckey. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. You have also brought with you the actual original tape of this interview?

Mr. Stuckey. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. That is the radio tape?

Mr. Stuckey. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And this 13-page document is a literal transcription or translation of that tape?

Mr. Stuckey. Yes; there are some errors, but they are very, very small errors, largely typographical errors.

Mr. Jenner. Prepared by you?

Mr. Stuckey. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Would you look at the 13-page document, and if there are any errors other than obvious typographical errors which you would like to draw to our attention, I wish you would do it. You were going to look through it and see if there were——

Mr. Stuckey. I can tell you in advance there are no errors in fact, and no deletions, with the exception of this last paragraph which I abbreviated by saying "standard close." All that was, was I would have been talking with Lee Harvey Oswald—"This is Bill Stuckey, Latin Listening Post. Good night"—that is all that was, no facts at all.

Mr. Jenner. The words ("standard close") appearing on the last line of page 13 is a shorthand way of your designating your customary signoff?

Mr. Stuckey. Yes; correct.

Mr. Jenner. All right. I offer in evidence Stuckey Exhibit No. 2.

Mr. Stuckey. I was going to refer to this definition of "democracy" that he gave.

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mr. Stuckey. Are you interested in it?

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mr. Stuckey. This is interesting to me for a number of reasons, not just the meaning but how adept this fellow was at taking a question, any question, and distorting it for his own purposes, saying what he wanted to say while making you think that he was answering your question. He was expert in dialectics.

"STUCKEY: What's your definition of democracy?"

Mr. Jenner. You are reading from Stuckey Exhibit No. 2 now?

Mr. Stuckey. Correct.

"OSWALD: My definition—well, the definition of democracy—that's a very good one. That's a very controversial viewpoint. You know, it used to be very clear, but now it is not. You know, when our forefathers drew up the Constitution they considered that democracy was creating an atmosphere of freedom of discussion, of argument, of finding the truth; these rights, well, the classic rights of having life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness. In Latin America they have none of those rights, none of them at all, and that is my definition of democracy, the right to be in a minority and not to be suppressed; the right to see for yourself without government restrictions such countries as Cuba, and we are restricted from going to Cuba."

The question was, "What is your definition of democracy?", and we discussed the passport ban as part of the definition.

Mr. Jenner. In other words, he did not respond to your question?

Mr. Stuckey. No; except obliquely to make the point.

Mr. Jenner. Did you find that he did that—it will appear, of course, in that transcript——

Mr. Stuckey. Constantly throughout the interview.

Mr. Jenner. In your discussions with him he parried your questions by not answering them.

Mr. Stuckey. He would—his general attack would be "I am glad you asked that question, it is very good," and then he would proceed to talk about what he wanted to talk about, and completely ignore your questions on occasions. So there were at least half a dozen examples of that.

Mr. Jenner. In the transcript which you have furnished?

Mr. Stuckey. Yes.

165 Mr. Jenner. Did you supply a copy of that transcript to anyone else prior to your bringing Stuckey Exhibit No. 2 today?

Mr. Stuckey. Yes; I did.

Mr. Jenner. To whom?

Mr. Stuckey. To the Federal Bureau of Investigation.

Mr. Jenner. When you were interviewed by the FBI you supplied the FBI with a transcript?

Mr. Stuckey. No; as a matter of fact I gave the tape to the FBI the Monday following the interview, which would have been August 20, 1963. I told them I thought it was very interesting, and if they would like to have a transcript they could copy it, which they did. They made a copy and then they gave me a copy of their transcript, and returned the tape to me.

Mr. Jenner. But Stuckey Exhibit No. 2 is the one that you prepared?

Mr. Stuckey. Correct.

Mr. Jenner. And not one that the FBI prepared.

Mr. Stuckey. Correct.

Mr. Jenner. All right.

This was on Saturday afternoon. Were you scheduled to go on the air that evening?

Mr. Stuckey. Yes; my broadcast time is 7:30. I met him about 5, about two and a half hours in advance.

Mr. Jenner. Had you contemplated that the broadcast that evening would be a discourse only between you and Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. Stuckey. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Is that the way it developed?

Mr. Stuckey. That is the way it developed.

Mr. Jenner. What was the nature of that broadcast? I should say to you we have from—what is the radio station?

Mr. Stuckey. WDSU.

Mr. Jenner. From WDSU we have obtained a copy of that tape.

Mr. Stuckey. Now, you mean of this tape?

Mr. Jenner. No.

Mr. Stuckey. Because I don't think they have a copy of that tape.

Mr. Jenner. No; the broadcast that evening I am talking about.

Mr. Stuckey. Is that right? They located it?

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mr. Stuckey. Because I tried to find a copy of that mainly to take it off the market and never did locate it. I couldn't find it. This must be a recent development.

Mr. Jenner. Yes; but despite that would you tell us about that broadcast?

Mr. Stuckey. Yes.

As I said, this was a 37-minute, rambling interview between Oswald and myself, and following the interview, first we played it back to hear it. He was satisfied.

Mr. Jenner. That is, you played back the tape of which Exhibit No. 2 is a transcript?

Mr. Stuckey. Correct; Oswald was satisfied. I think he thought he had scored quite a coup.

Then I went back over it in his presence and with the engineer's help excerpted a couple of the remarks by Oswald in this. I forget now what the excerpts were. It has been so long ago. I think we had his definition of democracy because that, in particular, struck me, and we had a couple of his comments in which he said Castro was a free and independent leader of a free and independent state, and the rest of it, as I recall, was largely my summarizing of the other principal points of the 37-minute interview, and it was broadcast on schedule that night.

Mr. Jenner. You had watered it down in length to how many minutes?

Mr. Stuckey. Five minutes.

Mr. Jenner. Five minutes?

Mr. Stuckey. Actually 4.

Mr. Jenner. So you took the portions of your 37-minute interview, which166 we now have a transcript of, which is Exhibit No. 2, and boiled that down to 4 minutes?

Mr. Stuckey. Correct.

Mr. Jenner. And that was a radio broadcast?

Mr. Stuckey. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. That evening. All right. Was that your last contact with Mr. Oswald?

Mr. Stuckey. No; it was not.

Mr. Jenner. Following the broadcast did you have any further conversation with him, that evening?

Mr. Stuckey. That evening; no. The only thing that did transpire was I told him that I was going to talk to the news director to see if the news director was interested in running the entire 37-minute tape later, and I told him to get in touch with me, Oswald to get in touch with me Monday, and I would let him know what the news director said, and that was all the conversation we had that night, and he went his way.

I did just that the next Monday, I called the news director and asked him if he had heard the tape, and he said no. I asked him if he was interested in running it. I told him I thought it was pretty interesting, and he said, for some reason, he thought that it would be more spectacular a little bit—there would be more public interest if we did not run this tape at all, but instead arrange a second program, a debate panel show, with some local anti-Communists on there to refute some of his arguments, which I did. Which I did—I arranged a debate show for a regular radio feature that WDSU has called "Conversation Carte Blanche." This is a 25-minute public affairs program that runs daily. It is almost always interviews of people in the news locally or this sort of thing.

I was in charge of arranging the panel, so I picked Mr. Edward S. Butler.

Mr. Jenner. Tell us who he is.

Mr. Stuckey. He is the Executive Director of the Information Council of the Americas in New Orleans.

Mr. Jenner. What is that organization?

Mr. Stuckey. It is an anti-Communist propaganda organization. Their principal activity is to take tape-recorded interviews with Cuban refugees or refugees from Iron Curtain countries, and distribute these tapes which are naturally, it goes without saying, these tapes are very strongly anti-Communist, and they distribute these tapes to radio stations throughout Latin America. As I recall, they came to have over 100 stations using these tapes regularly.

Well, Mr. Butler is a friend of mine. I knew him as a columnist, and it just seemed like——

Mr. Jenner. He was an articulate and knowledgeable man in this area to which he directs his attention?

Mr. Stuckey. Yes; so I asked him to be one of the panelists on the show, which he accepted, and, incidentally, I let him hear the 37-minute tape in advance; and for the other panelist I asked Mr. Bringuier, Mr. Carlos Bringuier, that we mentioned earlier, as being the man who led me to Oswald—I asked him to appear on the show to give it a little Cuban flavor.

And then Oswald called me after it was arranged, and I told him we were going to arrange the show and would he be interested, and he said, yes, indeed, and then he said, "How many of you am I going to have to fight?" That was his version of saying how many are on the panel.

Mr. Jenner. He said this to you?

Mr. Stuckey. Yes; in a jocular way.

Mr. Jenner. Where did this take place, on the telephone?

Mr. Stuckey. On the telephone; yes.

This was Monday or Tuesday, the 19th or the 20th of August, whenever it was that I had informed him of the show.

Mr. Jenner. Had he called you?

Mr. Stuckey. Yes; I gave him my office number so he called me at a prearranged time. He was very punctual, very punctual. He was always there on time, all those calls came on time. So I informed him about this debate show and he agreed. He said he thought that would be interesting.

167 Then the next time I see him is on the afternoon of August 21, Wednesday. I believe this was about 5:30.

Mr. Jenner. Was this to be a preliminary session also?

Mr. Stuckey. Yes—well, no; this was to be a live program. The Conversation Carte Blanche panel show is not to be prerecorded as the other one was.

Mr. Jenner. I appreciate that, but I was just talking about your meeting with him on Wednesday afternoon, the 21st, at 5:30. The program went on at what time?

Mr. Stuckey. At 6:05.

Mr. Jenner. I see. It was not long before the program.

Mr. Stuckey. No.

Mr. Jenner. It was not a preliminary interview such as you had had, which is transcribed as Stuckey Exhibit No. 2?

Mr. Stuckey. No; there were some comments of which I will tell you later.

Mr. Jenner. All right.

Mr. Stuckey. I would like to add this, this is very interesting, and gave a little bit of spice to this encounter. During that day, Wednesday, August 21, one of my news sources called me up and said, "I hear you are going to have Oswald on Carte Blanche." I said, "Yes, that is right." He said, "We have some information about Mr. Oswald, the fact that he lived in Russia for 3 years."

He had omitted reference to this in the 37-minute previous interview, and in all of our conversations.

Mr. Jenner. He had never mentioned that subject prior to that?

Mr. Stuckey. As a matter of fact, he gives an account of his background in here.

Mr. Jenner. In Stuckey Exhibit No. 2?

Mr. Stuckey. Right; in which he completely omits this. Would you like me to read it?

Mr. Jenner. Yes; you have turned to a particular page?

Mr. Stuckey. Yes; I will be reading from this. Here is my question.

"STUCKEY:"——

Mr. Jenner. Maybe we can identify the page.

Mr. Stuckey. This will be page 11.

Mr. Jenner. Page 11 of Stuckey Exhibit No. 2.

Mr. Stuckey. My question was:

"Mr. Oswald, I am curious about your personal background. If you could tell something about where you came from, your education and your career to date, it would be interesting.

"OSWALD:"—this is his reply—"I would be very happy to. I was born in New Orleans in 1939. For a short length of time during my childhood I lived in Texas and New York. During my junior high school days I attended Beauregard Junior High School. I attended that school for 2 years. Then I went to Warren Eastern High School, and I attended that school for over a year. Then my family and I moved to Texas where we have many relatives, and I continued my schooling there. I entered the United States Marine Corps in 1956. I spent 3 years in the United States Marine Corps working my way up through the ranks to the position of buck sergeant, and I served honorably having been discharged. Then I went back to work in Texas and have recently arrived in New Orleans with my family, with my wife and my child."

There is his answer. He omits the 3 years in Russia by saying that, referring to the fact that, after leaving the Marine Corps he says he went to Texas and then to New Orleans. You will note in there he lied about his rank he achieved in the Marine Corps. Why, I don't know. As far as I know he was just a Pfc.

Mr. Jenner. He never rose any higher.

Mr. Stuckey. And, as I recall, he did not go to Warren Eastern High School over a year.

Mr. Jenner. You have become aware he attended Beauregard only 1 year rather than 2?

Mr. Stuckey. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. That he attended Warren Eastern about 6 weeks or 2 months.

168 Mr. Stuckey. That was my impression. I mention this because with this in mind, this is why it was so interesting to me to find out on that day, August 21, that he had lied to me, that he had, in fact, lived in Russia for 3 years, and had just recently returned, and this individual who called me and gave me this information gave me dates of Washington newspaper clippings that I could check, which were stories about his leaving for Russia, or rather his appearance in Moscow in 1959.

Mr. Jenner. Now, this information came to you between the time of your interview transcribed as Stuckey Exhibit No. 2 and the 21st of August when you were about to put on your debate program, the discussion program?

Mr. Stuckey. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. Did this come to you sufficiently in advance to enable you to do some checking vis-a-vis newspaper or articles?

Mr. Stuckey. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And was he unaware when he came in at 5:30 on the afternoon of Wednesday that you had done this, had received this information and had done some research?

Mr. Stuckey. He was unaware of that fact. During that day Mr. Butler called, after I had already been tipped off about his Russian residence, Mr. Butler called and said he too had found out the same thing, I think later; his source apparently was the House Un-American Activities Committee or something like that.

At any rate, we thought this was very interesting and we agreed together to produce this information on the program that night.

Mr. Jenner. You were going to face him on the program with this?

Mr. Stuckey. Unawareness.

Mr. Jenner. You thought it might be a bombshell and be unaware to him.

Mr. Stuckey. Exactly.

Mr. Jenner. All right.

Mr. Stuckey. And we decided it would be me who would do it as the introducing participant.

So at about 5:30 that afternoon I arrived at the studio alone. Oswald appeared, and in a very heavy gray flannel suit, and this is August in New Orleans, it is extremely hot, that he appears in a very heavy gray flannel suit, very bulky, badly cut suit, and looking very hot and uncomfortable. He had a blue shirt on and a dark tie, and a black looseleaf notebook.

Mr. Jenner. The same one he had had before?

Mr. Stuckey. As far as I know. We shook hands, passed a few pleasantries, nothing much of importance.

Mr. Jenner. Were the others present?

Mr. Stuckey. No; they arrived a little bit later. Oswald was there first, as usual on time, and then Mr. Butler came in with Mr. Bringuier. Both looked as if they had pounds and pounds of literature with them, and statistics.

Mr. Jenner. Did Bringuier and Oswald recognize each other?

Mr. Stuckey. Oh, yes.

Mr. Jenner. And it was apparent to you they were acquainted?

Mr. Stuckey. Oh, yes; indeed.

Mr. Jenner. And that Oswald was acquainted with Bringuier and vice versa?

Mr. Stuckey. Right.

Mr. Jenner. Had Oswald met Mr. Butler before?

Mr. Stuckey. I don't know if he had or not. It was my impression that he had not, but I think he knew who he was. Oswald asked me something about the organization, and I told him, I said, "Well, it is just like your organization; it is a propaganda outfit, just on the other side of the fence," and that satisfied his curiosity.

I think he immediately kissed it off as a hopeless rightist organization, "You can't reason with those people," that approach.

So it was a somewhat touchy exchange there between Bringuier and Oswald in the studio. Bringuier, as well as I recall, started out with a remark like this, saying, "You know, I thought you were a very nice boy. You really made a good impression on me when I first met you." Referring to Oswald's visit to Bringuier in the store when Oswald was posing as an anti-Castro enthusiast,169 and Bringuier said, "I cannot understand how you have let yourself become entangled with this group."

He said, "I don't think you know what you are doing."

Oswald said something to the effect that, "I don't think you know what you are doing," and back and forth such as this. Bringuier said, "Anytime you want to get out of your organization and join mine there is a place for you," and he says, "I hope one day you will see the light."

And again Oswald says, "I hope you see the light," and that was about all there was to that.

Butler didn't say anything to him particularly. It was just pleasantries, "How do you do," and such.

Mr. Jenner. How old a man is Butler?

Mr. Stuckey. Butler is in his late twenties, he is 29 or 30.

Mr. Jenner. Is he an educated man?

Mr. Stuckey. College, as far as I know. He is advertising, public relations man before he went into the propaganda business, and that was about the extent of the exchanges prior to the broadcast.

Then I left to go back to the newsroom, which was a different room from the room where we were sitting, to get Bill Slatter, who is the official moderator of the program, and we came back and picked up our participants and went into the broadcast room.

As I recall, in opening the show Bill Slatter said that myself and he would be talking to three other people. In other words, I was not considered a panelist, but there were two station people and three panel people. This was the way it was explained, and Slatter turned the program over to me after a very brief introduction and description of Oswald and a brief capsule of his background in New Orleans to date, and then he turned the show over to me, and I gave a several-minute description of the organization, Mr. Oswald and his activities in New Orleans up to that time, and then I pulled the Russian thing on him.

I did mention—I think I did it this way, I said:

"Mr. Oswald, in the previous interview, gave me a description of his background. He told me this and that and this and that, but he omitted some information, to the best of my knowledge," and I mentioned that that day some newspaper clippings had come to my attention about his residence in Russia, and I said, "Is this true, Mr. Oswald?"; and Oswald said, "Yes."

Mr. Jenner. Would you mark what I hand you, Mr. Reporter, as Stuckey Exhibit No. 3.

(The item was marked Stuckey Exhibit No. 3 for identification.)

Mr. Stuckey. You may be interested in knowing that the Information Council of the Americas, Mr. Butler's organization, has since made a record out of this debate, and just released it about 2 weeks ago, called "Self-Portrait in Red."

Mr. Jenner. I am going to hand you, to refresh your recollection, if it needs refreshing, a 10-page document which I have marked for purposes of identification only as Stuckey Exhibit No. 3. Each of these pages bears the figure 236 in red ink at the bottom. It is also known here as, that is, around here, as Commission Document No. 87B. The pages are numbered at the top 1 through 10, inclusive. It purports to be a transcript of a tape recording of your broadcast of the evening about which you speak, a debate on August 21, 1963.

We have obtained from the radio station, WDSU, a duplicate of the tape itself. Would you take a look at this transcript and perhaps, if you will run through it, tell us whether it is, to your recollection, a transcript of your program that night?

Mr. Stuckey. I would like to say this about this transcript. I think it is very unfair. These people have put in all of Oswald's hesitations, his "er's," and that sort of thing. I notice when the AP ran an account of this after the assassination they had done all of this on Oswald. They were apparently trying to make him look stupid. Everybody else was using the "er's," but they didn't put those in.

Mr. Jenner. I will say it is a transcript—your attention is drawn to the fact that the hesitations of Oswald are included, but the hesitations of, let us say, even yourself and the other participants, are not.

170 Mr. Stuckey. Are not.

Mr. Jenner. And in that sense it is in some measure a distortion of the actual tape.

Mr. Stuckey. A slight distortion. I think it is an unfair thing.

Mr. Jenner. Well, we have the actual tape so the hesitations will appear, and what I was using this primarily for is to afford you an opportunity, if you wish to use it, to refresh your recollection of this program.

What were some of the things that you now recall that struck you about this dissertation?

Mr. Stuckey. Well, of course, the principal thing that came out on that program, aside from the Russian residence, the most striking thing was his admission that he was a Marxist. We asked him if he was a Communist—we were always doing this—he was very clever about avoiding the question. He would usually say, "As I said before, I belong to no other organization other than the Fair Play for Cuba Committee."

So we asked him this question, of course, and he gave us that answer, and I asked, "Are you a Marxist?"; and he said, "Yes."

Otherwise, it was—the program was largely speeches by Bringuier and Butler, and Oswald did not have a chance to ramble much or to talk much as he had earlier, and most of his answers are rather short.

Mr. Jenner. Did you get into a discussion of democracy and communism and Marxism and then the distinctions?

Mr. Stuckey. Yes, yes.

Mr. Jenner. The distinctions between them?

Mr. Stuckey. A brief discussion. We asked him, I say "we," I mean Mr. Butler asked him the difference between being a Marxist and being a Communist, and this was a typical oblique Oswald answer. He says, "It is the same difference between Ghana and Guinea, and even in Great Britain they have socialized medicine," and that is about the extent of the answer.

Mr. Jenner. What impression did you have as to this man's deep or fundamental appreciation of Marxism, democracy, communism, fascism, socialism, as the case might be?

Mr. Stuckey. It was my impression he had done a great deal of reading.

Mr. Jenner. Did you have an impression that his knowledge—that he was, if I may use this expression, that he had a superficial knowledge as distinguished from a close study with a critical leader or teacher pointing out to him the fundamental distinctions between these systems?

Mr. Stuckey. It would be difficult to say. It was apparent he was acquainted with a wide body of facts and he knew appropriate words and such from historical points concerning the development of Marxism.

Mr. Jenner. You see I am seeking your impression at the time and not one that you have formed since.

Mr. Stuckey. Yes; right. Well, I had not run across many Marxists in my time, and I guess this was about the first professional Marxist I had run across, and he impressed me as knowing something about the subject. But again it was difficult to appraise the full measure of his learning because of his oblique way of answering questions and dodging questions whenever he did not want to speak about a particular point. I would hesitate to say whether it was superficial or not. I just don't know that much about it.

Mr. Jenner. Give me your impression of his demeanor.

Mr. Stuckey. Confident.

Mr. Jenner. Confident, self-assured?

Mr. Stuckey. Self-assured, logical.

Mr. Jenner. Able to handle questions?

Mr. Stuckey. Very well qualified to handle questions, articulate. There was a little bit of a woodenness in his voice at times, and a little stiff. This was another impression of mine about Oswald, his academic manner. If he could use a six-syllable word——

Mr. Jenner. You mean demeanor?

Mr. Stuckey. Demeanor; yes. If he could use a six-syllable word instead of a two-syllable word, he would do so. Now that characteristic in itself would not tend to make it that his learning was superficial.

171 Mr. Jenner. Did you have the impression he searched for the multisyllable word?

Mr. Stuckey. Yes, yes; as I say, he would prefer that. I don't know why—of course, this is all hindsight, but it occurred to me he would be the type of man who would not use the word, say, "murder," when he could use something a little more formal like "act of violence," this sort of thing. It was, as a matter of fact, his manner was sort of quasi-legal. It was almost as if he had—as if he were a young attorney. He seemed to be very well acquainted with the legal terminology dealing with constitutional rights.

Mr. Jenner. Did this discussion become heated?

Mr. Stuckey. Yes; it did. It got rather heated. Mr. Butler, in particular, more or less took the offensive, and attempted to trip him up a few times on questions, questions about the nature of Marxism and of the nature of the Castro regime and this sort of thing, and Mr. Oswald handled himself very well, as usual. I think that we finished him on that program. I think that after that program the Fair Play for Cuba Committee, if there ever was one in New Orleans, had no future there, because we had publicly linked the Fair Play for Cuba Committee with a fellow who had lived in Russia for 3 years and who was an admitted Marxist.

The interesting thing, or rather the danger involved, was the fact that Oswald seemed like such a nice, bright boy and was extremely believable before this. We thought the fellow could probably get quite a few members if he was really indeed serious about getting members. We figured after this broadcast of August 21, why, that was no longer possible.

Mr. Jenner. The broadcast ran approximately how long?

Mr. Stuckey. Twenty-five minutes.

Mr. Jenner. And after the broadcast broke up was that the last of your contacts with Oswald?

Mr. Stuckey. No; it wasn't. The others left, and Oswald looked a little dejected, and I said, "Well, let's go out and have a beer," and he says, "All right." So we left the studio and went to a bar called Comeaux's Bar. It is about a half-block from the studio and this was the first time that his manner kind of changed from the quasi-legal position, and he relaxed a little bit. This was the first time I ever saw him relaxed and off of his guard. We had about an hour's conversation, 45 minutes to an hour, maybe a little more, maybe a little less, and, by the way, I mentioned his suit being rather gawky cut, and he told me afterward the suit was purchased in Russia, and they didn't know much about making clothes over there. Would you like me to tell you about the conversation?

Mr. Jenner. Yes; I would.

Mr. Stuckey. We covered a number of points because I was relaxed, as far as I was concerned professionally I had no other occasion to contact Oswald. He was off the spot. So we just had a little conversation. During that conversation he told me that he was reading at that time about Indonesian communism, and that he was reading everything he could get his hands on. He offered an opinion about Sukarno, that he was not really a Communist, that he was merely an opportunist who was using the Communists.

We had a discussion about alcohol. I noticed he wasn't doing very good with his beer, and it was a hot night, and he made a reference to that. He said, "Well, you see, I am not used to drinking beer. I am a vodka drinker." And he said, "My father-in-law taught me how to drink vodka," and then he proceeded to tell me that his father-in-law, who was the father of his wife Marina, was a Russian Army colonel, and mentioned that as an army colonel he earned quite a bit more money than Oswald was earning in Russia. Oswald told me at that time he was making about 80 rubles a month as a factory worker, whereas his father-in-law, the Colonel, was making something like 300 rubles a month, so he could afford all the vodka he wanted, and he says that is who taught him to drink vodka. May I refresh my memory——

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mr. Stuckey. With some notes?

Mr. Jenner. Yes. You have mentioned Marina for the first time when you cited her a moment ago. Had he mentioned her prior to that time?

172 Mr. Stuckey. Not by name. He only referred to her as "my wife."

Mr. Jenner. Had he identified her as to her origin here or in Russia?

Mr. Stuckey. Yes; this was afterward. Naturally when we brought up this business about the Russian residence, he mentioned she was a Russian girl and spoke no English. He said that was the way he wanted it because it gave him an opportunity to keep up his Russian. He wanted to keep his Russian up, and so they spoke nothing but Russian in the home.

Mr. Jenner. Did he say anything about having any family?

Mr. Stuckey. He mentioned a wife and child. Now on the first broadcast on Saturday the 17th he mentioned, you will recall, in that brief digest of his background, he said he had been in the Marine Corps and then had left and gone to Texas and had recently arrived in New Orleans with his wife and his child. So in that case he mentioned that he did have a daughter and a wife. I see something I have omitted about the first meeting I had with him on the morning of August 17th.

Mr. Jenner. All right.

Mr. Stuckey. At his home.

Mr. Jenner. Tell us about that.

Mr. Stuckey. He told me at that time he was working as an assistant to a commercial photographer in New Orleans.

Mr. Jenner. You made no check on that?

Mr. Stuckey. No; I didn't check him out.

Mr. Jenner. You were not then aware of the fact that, the fact was that he was not an assistant to a commercial photographer.

Mr. Stuckey. No; I was not aware of that.

Mr. Jenner. Did he tell you where he was working?

Mr. Stuckey. No.

Mr. Jenner. You were not aware, therefore, at that time he was at that time an oiler or a greaser at the Reily Coffee Co.

Mr. Stuckey. Is that correct?

Mr. Jenner. He was out of work at that time, but he had been.

Mr. Stuckey. I never could figure out why he referred to the trade of photography. Had he been involved in photography?

Mr. Jenner. When he was in Dallas prior to his coming to New Orleans in the spring of 1963, he had been an apprentice with a company, Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall, a commercial advertising photographing company that produced advertising materials, mats, and photographs, and that sort of thing. He worked in the darkroom. He had very limited experience.

Mr. Stuckey. That apparently is what he was referring to.

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mr. Stuckey. Here is some additional information if you would like me to bring this out.

Mr. Jenner. Yes; go ahead.

Mr. Stuckey. I am going to the conversation after the broadcast of the 21st, this is with Oswald and me at Comeaux's Bar. I asked him at that time how he became interested in Marxism and he said that there are many books on the subject in any public library. I asked him if he, if his family was an influence on him in any way. He says, "No," and he kind of looked a little amused. He said, "No," he says, "They are pretty much typical New Orleans types," and that was about all he said.

Mr. Jenner. Did he mention his mother?

Mr. Stuckey. No; he didn't. As a matter of fact, when we referred to his family, all his references were in the plural, and it was my impression that he had a mother and a father, sisters, aunts, uncles and everybody, because the general impression was that there were a number of people in the family. I was surprised to find out that it wasn't true, later.

Mr. Jenner. Well, he had relatives in New Orleans, the Murret family.

Mr. Stuckey. I see.

Mr. Jenner. Mrs. Murret is—Marguerite Oswald, that is his mother—that was her sister.

Mr. Stuckey. He told me that he had begun to read Marx and Engels at the age of 15, but he said the conclusive thing that made him decide that Marxism173 was the answer was his service in Japan. He said living conditions over there convinced him something was wrong with the system, and that possibly Marxism was the answer. He said it was in Japan that he made up his mind to go to Russia and see for himself how a revolutionary society operates, a Marxist society.

Mr. Jenner. He thought that Russia was a Marxist society?

Mr. Stuckey. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Did you question or discuss with him whether he found that the system in Russia was a Marxist society or whether it was——

Mr. Stuckey. Yes; he wasn't very pleased apparently with some of the aspects of Russian political life. Particularly in the factories he said that a lot of the attitudes and this sort of thing was the same sort of attitude that you would find in an American factory. There was a lot of dead-heading, as we say in Louisiana. I don't know what your expression is.

Mr. Jenner. Goldbricking.

Mr. Stuckey. Goldbricking. The boss' relatives on the payrolls at nice salaries.

Mr. Jenner. Nepotism.

Mr. Stuckey. Nepotism, this sort of thing. Anybody with any authority at all would just use it to death to get everybody extra privileges that they could, and a lot of dishonesty, padding of production figures and this sort of thing. He said he wasn't very impressed.

Mr. Jenner. Were you curious as to why he had come back to the United States and did you, if you were curious, discuss that subject with him?

Mr. Stuckey. I don't believe I did. As a matter of fact, I wasn't curious at the time. We just accepted the fact that he had. In hindsight we should have asked a lot of questions about him.

Mr. Jenner. The newspaper material that you had read, there was, was there not, something about his dishonorable discharge from the Marines?

Mr. Stuckey. No; I don't recall any reference to that in the newspapers. Incidentally, Oswald had told me and had produced a discharge card that he was honorably discharged from the Marine Corps. He produced a card showing this.

Mr. Jenner. When had he done that?

Mr. Stuckey. This was the night of the 17th at the radio station. Why he did this I don't know. I forget what the circumstances were. I recognized the card because, after all, I was a marine myself and I had one exactly like it.

Mr. Jenner. Did you, in the tete-a-tete in Comeaux's Bar discuss with him his attempt, when in Russia, to renounce his American citizenship?

Mr. Stuckey. No; we didn't, because that was alluded to in the broadcast and, as far as I was concerned, it was satisfactorily answered.

Mr. Jenner. He does respond—you say, and I am now turning to the document identified as Stuckey Exhibit No. 3, a transcript of that radio debate—in your preliminary remarks you advert to the fact that you had sought an independent source, Washington newspaper clippings—you advert to the fact that Mr. Oswald, and I am reading, "Mr. Oswald had attempted to renounce his American citizenship in 1959 and become a Soviet citizen.

"There was another clipping dated 1952 saying Mr. Oswald had returned from the Soviet Union with his wife and child after having lived there 3 years. Mr. Oswald, are these correct?" And he responds, "That is correct." I might say for the record that the date 1952 is the date that appears in this transcript, but the fact is that it was 1962. That was either a slip of the tongue or it is a typographical error, is that correct?

Mr. Stuckey. I think so.

Mr. Jenner. But in this informal conversation following the broadcast you did not pursue these subjects?

Mr. Stuckey. Not those. We discussed other subjects. He made another observation about life in Russia. He said things were extremely bland, homogenized.

Mr. Jenner. Did he elaborate on that?

Mr. Stuckey. Yes; I thought it was interesting.

Mr. Jenner. Tell us about that, please.

174 Mr. Stuckey. He said that nobody—everybody seems to be almost alike in Russia because, after all, they had eliminated a lot of the dissenting elements in Russian society and had achieved fairly homogenous blend of population as a result.

Mr. Jenner. That was an observation on his part, was it, of an aspect of Russian society that disappointed him?

Mr. Stuckey. I don't know. I don't recall him expressing an opinion as to whether he was disappointed by that. It was a comment. His tone was slightly acid as if he did not like it, but again this is my impression. He did say this which was interesting, he said that they wouldn't allow any Fair Play for Cuba Committees in Russia.

Mr. Jenner. He did?

Mr. Stuckey. Yes; he said they just would not because it is the type of organization that Russian society would just suppress.

Mr. Jenner. Russian society?

Mr. Stuckey. The Russian authorities would suppress.

Mr. Jenner. Russian authorities suppress any militant organization of this character.

Mr. Stuckey. Exactly.

Mr. Jenner. Whether it was Fair Play for Cuba or anything else that is militant in the sense of being openly critical of the Russian society and Russian politics?

Mr. Stuckey. Correct.

Mr. Jenner. Did he observe on that subject, did he observe in the sense of his feeling that in America you are permitted within the bounds of the Constitution to enjoy free speech and criticize your Government as distinguished from not being able to do so in Russia?

Mr. Stuckey. He didn't add anything other than what I have already said, but the implication was that we can do that here. "After all, you know here I have this organization and I am doing this. They probably would not let me do a similar thing in Russia," and this was his tone.

Mr. Jenner. Do you have any impression as to his regard or judgment with respect to the government in which he was, whose privileges he was then exercising?

Mr. Stuckey. No; he had given lip service a time or two to the fact that he considered himself a loyal American. He was constantly referring to rights, constitutional rights, and he made some historical references. He illustrated the development of these rights in America.

Mr. Jenner. Did this informal conversation at Comeaux's Bar go on, you said, for about an hour?

Mr. Stuckey. Approximately an hour.

Mr. Jenner. Was he comfortable in the sense—was he eager, was he pleased——

Mr. Stuckey. He was relaxed, he was friendly. He seemed to be relieved it was all over. My impression was he was relieved that he did not have to hide the bit about the Russian residence any more, and that it had been a strain doing so, because his manner was completely different. There wasn't the stiffness or the guarded words and guarded replies. He seemed fairly open, and I have no reason to believe that everything he told me that night was not true. I think it was true.

Mr. Jenner. Was there any difference in his attitude or demeanor with respect to personal self-confidence, for example, in that Saturday interview at his home and your interview with him prior to the Monday night broadcast, taking that as a base, and comparing it with his attitude in Comeaux's Bar after you had revealed the fact that he had been in Russia and had attempted to defect?

Mr. Stuckey. Well, there wasn't any change. He was pretty consistent in his behavior from the very first time I met him until Comeaux's Bar, so this was the only notable change I observed. The manner was always guarded, even from the very first when he came out on his porch on August 17 in his dungarees, his manner was guarded.

Mr. Jenner. Was it guarded in Comeaux's?

Mr. Stuckey. No; it was not.

175 Mr. Jenner. This was much more relaxed?

Mr. Stuckey. Considerably.

Mr. Jenner. Following that tete-a-tete in Comeaux's Bar for about an hour, did you ever see Oswald after that?

Mr. Stuckey. That was the last time I ever saw him.

Mr. Jenner. When was the next time you heard of Oswald?

Mr. Stuckey. On November 22, 1963.

Mr. Jenner. What was that occasion?

Mr. Stuckey. The assassination of President Kennedy.

Mr. Jenner. How was it raised, what brought it to your attention?

Mr. Stuckey. I was watching a TV news broadcast at the time, and they had a bulletin in which they said a suspect had been arrested in the assassination, and they mentioned Lee Harvey Oswald, and I fell to the ground practically; I was surprised.

Mr. Jenner. Was there a video tape?

Mr. Stuckey. Yes. Following the debate show of August 21, Bill Slatter, the radio announcer, decided that some news had been made that night on the show, so he took Oswald back to the studio to repeat some of the statements he had made on the radio show for video tape. And they interviewed Oswald for quite a while, I would say for 5 minutes. But I understand that that night they only ran a brief excerpt of that tape, and the rest of it they threw away.

Mr. Jenner. The station has supplied us with what tape they did not throw away, the video tape.

Mr. Stuckey. They are not throwing away anything at that station any more, by the way, now.

Mr. Jenner. I suppose not. Without speculation on your part, if you have a recollection, do you recall whether he was right handed or left handed?

Mr. Stuckey. I don't recall. I don't believe that he ever had the opportunity to use his hand in such a way you could identify it. I never saw him writing.

Mr. Jenner. At least you never noticed it one way or the other?

Mr. Stuckey. No.

Mr. Jenner. Did he smoke?

Mr. Stuckey. No; he did not smoke. Again, this was part of my—of the impression of him that struck me. He seemed like somebody that took very good care of himself, very prudent, temperate, that sort of person. It was my impression Oswald regarded himself as living in a world of intellectual inferiors.

Mr. Jenner. Please elaborate on that. And on what do you base that, please?

Mr. Stuckey. Well, I base a lot of this on the conversation that we had in Comeaux's Bar. After all, I had paid some attention to Oswald, nobody else had particularly, and he seemed to enjoy talking with somebody he didn't regard as a stupid person, and it was my impression he thought that everybody else he had come in contact with was rather cloddish, and got the impression that he thought that he had—his philosophy, the way he felt about things, all this sort of thing, most people just could not understand this, and only an intelligent or educated person could. I don't mean to say that there was any arrogance in his manner. There was just—well, you can spot intelligence, or at least I can, I think, and this was a man who was intelligent, who was aware that he was intelligent, and who would like to have an opportunity to express his intelligence—that was my impression.

Mr. Jenner. What impression did you obtain of this man with respect to his volatility, that is, did you get any impression that he was quick to anger?

Mr. Stuckey. No; very well-disciplined, as a matter of fact. After all, he had been provoked on several occasions that afternoon by Bringuier and Butler on the show.

Mr. Jenner. Or that evening.

Mr. Stuckey. That evening; yes. And, of course, Bringuier's attempt to convert him to the cause of Revolutionary Students Directorate was presented in a rather biting way, and Oswald just took it, and just more or less told him that he wasn't interested, whereas other people might have gotten a little mad. After all, you have to recognize that Oswald—they were ganging up on him. There were a bunch of us around there. There were three people who disagreed176 with him, and he was only one man, and the fact that he kept his composure with this type of environment indicates discipline.

Mr. Jenner. That is right. Now, I show you a Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-A. Do you see Mr. Oswald shown on that exhibit?

Mr. Stuckey. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Is there a mark or something over his head?

Mr. Stuckey. Yes; there is a green cross of some sort.

Mr. Jenner. All right. There is a man to his left, there is an arrow, a vertical arrow, over that man's head. Do you recognize that person?

Mr. Stuckey. No.

Mr. Jenner. Far to the left, the most extreme left, of the picture is another man with dark glasses on. He has a green vertical stripe over his head. Do you recognize him?

Mr. Stuckey. No.

Mr. Jenner. Now, to the left of the man with the vertical arrow above his head is a tall rather husky young fellow whose back is turned. Do you, by any chance, recognize him?

Mr. Stuckey. This one?

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mr. Stuckey. No.

Mr. Jenner. I will ask you the general question do you recognize anybody depicted on Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-A other than Oswald?

Mr. Stuckey. Oswald is the only person I recognize in that picture.

Mr. Jenner. I show you Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-B. Do you recognize Oswald on that picture?

Mr. Stuckey. Yes; he has the green mark above his head.

Mr. Jenner. That is the vertical mark and it is the only mark on that photograph, is it not?

Mr. Stuckey. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. Directing your attention to the group of men on that photograph in which Oswald is a part although his back is to the group, do you recognize any of those men shown on that photograph?

Mr. Stuckey. No; I recognize nobody.

Mr. Jenner. And to the right side of the girl there are some ladies. Do you recognize any of them?

Mr. Stuckey. I was just looking over that. One of them looks vaguely familiar, but—no; I would have to say. No; I don't know the women.

Mr. Jenner. Do you recognize the vicinity or place shown?

Mr. Stuckey. Yes; that is the front of the International Trade Mart Building on Common and Camp Streets in New Orleans.

Mr. Jenner. If I may have that tape so I can put an exhibit number on it——

Mr. Stuckey. Do you want to take it now rather than go through all the letter-writing proceedings?

Mr. Jenner. I am not going to take it, but I am going to mark it and give it back to you. I don't want to have possession of it. I just want to look to see——

Mr. Stuckey. Would it be easier for the Commission if it were made into a record rather than a tape? I have a record that I have made, my own personal record.

Mr. Jenner. I will inquire about that. It possibly might be better. You mean a platter, a disc?

Mr. Stuckey. A platter, a disc.

Mr. Jenner. I suppose a tape is easier to preserve. A hundred years from now this tape would be just as true as it is today, that is assuming it is kept under good conditions, whereas a platter might deteriorate.

Mr. Stuckey. That is true.

Mr. Jenner. So I think we had better have the tape.

Mr. Stuckey. The disc would start decomposing after about the 25th time you played them, and also they get scratched and such. But one thing is you can't erase a record and you can erase a tape. That is the kind of nightmares you have with a tape. I was afraid to have a copy made of that thing for a177 long time just out of fear somebody might make a mistake and it would be erased.

Mr. Jenner. You have insured against that by your disk, a platter?

Mr. Stuckey. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. Mr. Stuckey, was a recording made on audio tape of the 37-minute interview that you had with Mr. Oswald on Monday, the 17th of August?

Mr. Stuckey. Yes; I have made one record which is strictly for my own use.

Mr. Jenner. You say you made it?

Mr. Stuckey. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. I take it it was made for you by somebody?

Mr. Stuckey. It was made for me by Cosimo's Recording Studio in New Orleans.

Mr. Jenner. From what source was the tape made by the commercial company you have named?

Mr. Stuckey. From——

Mr. Jenner. What was used to make the tape? Did you have a tape and you made a copy of the tape?

Mr. Stuckey. No; they took my original tape and from that they made the disc.

Mr. Jenner. I see. We are a little confused here. You have an audio tape of the 37-minute interview, do you?

Mr. Stuckey. Yes; I do.

Mr. Jenner. And you also have a wax disk?

Mr. Stuckey. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. It is the wax disk which is the disk recording from the original tape?

Mr. Stuckey. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. And it is the wax disk that was made by the commercial people you have named?

Mr. Stuckey. True.

Mr. Jenner. What I am getting at, Mr. Stuckey, was an audio tape transcript made of your interview with him on the 17th of August 1963?

Mr. Stuckey. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Who made the original tape?

Mr. Stuckey. The original tape was made by WDSU radio in the studios of WDSU, and the engineer doing the taping was Mr. Al Campin.

Mr. Jenner. Do you know what happened to that original tape?

Mr. Stuckey. Yes; I have it; it is in my possession.

Mr. Jenner. Did you bring it with you today?

Mr. Stuckey. No; this is a copy which you have in your hand.

Mr. Jenner. Did you bring a copy of that tape, which is Stuckey Exhibit No. 4?

Mr. Stuckey. That is correct?

Mr. Jenner. From what source did you obtain the original tape?

Mr. Stuckey. From WDSU. When the management of WDSU decided not to run that tape but instead to have the debate, the second show, then they gave me the tape.

Mr. Jenner. What is now marked as Stuckey Exhibit No. 4 is a reproduction on tape of the original tape?

Mr. Stuckey. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. Who made the reproduction which is Stuckey Exhibit No. 4?

Mr. Stuckey. Cosimo's Recording Studio.

Mr. Jenner. Where are they located? Do you happen offhand to recall the address?

Mr. Stuckey. It is on Governor Nichol's Street in the 500 block.

Mr. Jenner. Would you tell us the full name of that company?

Mr. Stuckey. Yes; Cosimo's Recording Studio, I believe it is.

Mr. Jenner. Did you have more than one tape reproduction made of that?

Mr. Stuckey. Yes; I have had—how many do I have? I have two copies and the record in addition to the original tape, so there are four pieces of, four items involved.

178 Mr. Jenner. You will recall, Mr. Stuckey, that you were good enough when I was in New Orleans to take me over to the radio station, what is the name of it again?

Mr. Stuckey. WDSU.

Mr. Jenner. WDSU, and there was played in my presence and in my hearing a tape transcript of your 37-minute interview with Oswald on the 17th of August 1963. Is the tape which I have in my hand, marked Stuckey Exhibit No. 4, the tape that was played that evening in my presence?

Mr. Stuckey. It is.

Mr. Jenner. And it is in the same condition now as it was at the time I heard it?

Mr. Stuckey. Exactly.

Mr. Jenner. It is in the same condition now as it was when it was prepared by Cosimo's?

Mr. Stuckey. Correct.

Mr. Jenner. Subject to my understanding with you that you will receive a communication from Mr. Rankin respecting the preservation of this tape against commercial use, I offer Stuckey Exhibit No. 4 in evidence. I am going to return the tape to you so that there will be no question in your mind but what, in the meantime, until you do receive Mr. Rankin's letter, that the tape has been in your possession, and no one has made, surreptitiously or otherwise by accident or any fashion, a copy of it.

Mr. Stuckey. Very good.

Mr. Jenner. I think I will state for the record, Mr. Reporter, that in an off-the-record discussion with Mr. Stuckey respecting the audio tape of the interview of August 17, 1963, Stuckey Exhibit No. 4, Mr. Stuckey has agreed that he will supply or return, let us say, Exhibit No. 4 to us upon his receipt of a communication from Mr. Rankin, as counsel for the Commission, that the tape when redelivered to us and becomes part of the record of the Commission, will not be subjected to use for any commercial purpose and reproduction.

Mr. Stuckey. I would like to ask for one qualification.

Mr. Jenner. All right.

Mr. Stuckey. I would like my attorney to read over the letter before——

Mr. Jenner. Of course.

Mr. Stuckey. Before sending you the tape, and in case we suggest possibly some changes——

Mr. Jenner. I think that is wise. Since I am returning the tape to you, why, I am sure you won't send it back unless your counsel is satisfied that you are reasonably protected, because we appreciate the fact that this is personal property and that it has some commercial value to you and, frankly, we would be a little bit surprised if you were not concerned about preserving that.

I think that is all. Is there anything that you would like to add, that you think might be helpful to the Commission in its investigation of the assassination of President John Fitzgerald Kennedy?

Mr. Stuckey. I think we have covered just about everything.

Mr. Jenner. All right.

Mr. Stuckey. Certainly all the hard facts.

Mr. Jenner. What is that?

Mr. Stuckey. I say certainly all the hard facts. The rest is just a lot of speculation and such.

Mr. Jenner. One other thing. Give Bringuier's physical description, describe Bringuier physically to me, please.

Mr. Stuckey. Describe Oswald?

Mr. Jenner. No; Bringuier.

Mr. Stuckey. He is about 5 feet 10 inches. He is not particularly dark-skinned, although his hair is black, his eyes are brown. He has the beginnings of a paunch, although his build is generally rather slender; he wears glasses, smokes cigars. I can't think of a thing else.

Mr. Jenner. OK. I guess that is about it.


179

AFFIDAVIT OF HORACE ELROY TWIFORD

The following affidavit was executed by Horace Elroy Twiford on July 11, 1964.

AFFIDAVIT

PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION
ON THE ASSASSINATION OF
PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY

State of Texas,
County of Harris, ss:

I, Horace Elroy Twiford, 7018 Schley Street, Houston, Texas, being duly sworn say:

1. I have been a resident of Houston since May, 1956, and I am a merchant seaman. I am a member of the Socialist Labor Party.

2. The first time I ever heard of Lee Harvey Oswald was in July 1963, when The Headquarters of the Socialist Labor Party in New York wrote me that Oswald had requested literature. The New York Headquarters usually furnishes me with the names of any persons in the Texas area who make inquiries about the Socialist Labor Party. I then routinely mailed Oswald literature concerning the Socialist Labor Party to a box number in Dallas appearing on Twiford Exhibit No. 1. I had my return address on the envelope containing the material I sent to Oswald.

3. Twiford Exhibit No. 1 is the envelope which Oswald sent to the Socialist Labor Party in New York, and which they in turn sent to me.

4. The handwritten note across the front of this envelope, containing the words "Labor Day issue WP, 9/11/63" is in my handwriting and indicates that I mailed to Oswald on September 11, 1963, the Labor Day issue of the "Weekly People." I do not recall if this was the first time I sent him material.

5. I recollect having flown home to visit my wife on September 27, 1963, from New Orleans, Louisiana, where the S.S. Del Monte, the ship upon which I was working, was docked. Either at this time or on October 1, when the S.S. Del Monte reached Houston, my wife told me that a L. H. Oswald had called and asked for me during the week. My wife had written his name and the words "Fair Play for Cuba Committee" on a piece of paper in order to mention the telephone call.

6. I recollect that my wife told me that this telephone call had taken place during the week preceding my visit home. I had been home on the previous weekend, and neither at that time nor prior thereto had my wife said anything about a telephone call from Oswald.

7. I have never seen nor heard from Lee Harvey Oswald.

Signed this 11th day of July 1964.

(S)Horace Elroy Twiford,
Horace Elroy Twiford.

AFFIDAVIT OF MRS. ESTELLE TWIFORD

The following affidavit was executed by Mrs. Estelle Twiford on July 2, 1964.

AFFIDAVIT

PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION
ON THE ASSASSINATION OF
PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY

State of Texas,
County of Harris, ss:

I, Mrs. Estelle Twiford, 7018 Schley Street, Houston, Texas, being duly sworn say:

1. I am the wife of Horace Elroy Twiford.

2. In late September of 1963, Lee Harvey Oswald telephoned my house and asked to speak to my husband. I told him that my husband was at sea. Oswald inquired as to how my husband had his address. He also said that he had hoped to discuss ideas with my husband for a few hours before he flew down to Mexico. He said he only had a few hours. I assume he was calling from180 the Houston area since he did not, to my knowledge, place a long distance call. However, he did not specifically say that he was in Houston. I have no information concerning his whereabouts when this call was placed. I told him if he desired to correspond with my husband, he could direct a letter to 7018 Schley Street, Houston, Texas, and I would see that my husband received it.

3. I cannot recall the date of the call, but I think it occurred during the week prior to the weekend my husband flew home to visit me from New Orleans where his ship was docked. I recall, my husband had shipped out the weekend prior to the call.

4. I cannot recall the exact time he called, but I think that it was in the evening, sometime between 7:00 and 10:00 o'clock. I was not working during this period.

5. I wrote down on a slip of paper that Oswald had called and that he mentioned he was a member of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee. I did this in order to remember to tell my husband about the call. I told my husband about the call on the weekend he visited me. I have initialed and released note made of telephone call. (To Secret Service.)

6. Oswald did not state what he was going to Mexico for, nor did he state how long he would be there.

7. Other than the above mentioned telephone call, I have never had any contact with Lee Harvey Oswald.

8. I am not a member of the Socialist Labor Party.

Signed this 2d day of July 1964.

(S)Mrs. Estelle Twiford,
Mrs. Estelle Twiford.

TESTIMONY OF VIRGINIA H. JAMES

The testimony of Virginia H. James was taken at 2:15 p.m., on June 17, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Messrs. William T. Coleman, Jr., and W. David Slawson, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Thomas Ehrlich, Special Assistant to the Legal Adviser, Department of State, was present.

Mr. Coleman. Miss James, would you state your name for the record?

Miss James. Virginia H. James.

Mr. Coleman. Do you mind raising your right hand?

Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Miss James. I do.

Mr. Coleman. Miss James, as you know, you are the International Relations Officer, Office of Soviet Affairs, in the Department of State. You will be asked to testify about your actions with respect to Oswald concerning his attempt to return to the United States commencing in 1961, and his attempt to secure a visa for his wife, Marina.

You will also be questioned concerning your actions in connection with obtaining a waiver of Section 243(g) of the Immigration and Nationality Act for Marina, and what part, if any, you had in getting the Bureau of Immigration and Naturalization to reverse its initial decision to refuse such waiver. And I will also ask you a few questions on whether you have any knowledge concerning actions taken by the Department in 1959 when Oswald first attempted to renounce his American citizenship. Would you state for the record your present address?

Miss James. 2501 Q Street NW.

Mr. Coleman. Are you presently employed by the Federal Government?

Miss James. I am employed by the Department of State in the Office of Soviet Union Affairs.

Mr. Coleman. What is your official title?

Miss James. International Relations Officer.

Mr. Coleman. Did you occupy that position from 1959 through to date?

181 Miss James. I did; and do still.

Mr. Coleman. I have shown you, and I take it you are generally familiar with, the resolution of Congress which was adopted by Congress in connection with this Commission.

Miss James. Yes.

Mr. Coleman. To the best of your present knowledge, Miss James, could you tell me the first time you heard the name Oswald?

Miss James. When I read a copy of the telegram from the American Embassy at Moscow, dated, as I recall, October 30, 1959, saying that Oswald had called at the Embassy and had attempted to renounce his American citizenship.

Mr. Coleman. Would you accept my suggestion if I told you that that telegram was dated October 31 rather than the 30th?

Miss James. Yes.

Mr. Coleman. Why did you receive, obtain or see a copy of the telegram?

Miss James. To begin with, it is my function in the Department of State in the Office of Soviet Union Affairs, to handle matters relating to visas, issuance of visas and passport matters from the political angle only.

Mr. Coleman. For what area?

Miss James. For the Office of Soviet Union Affairs, and it is part of our responsibility to know what goes on in the American Embassy in Moscow, and to see how it is handled in order that we can continue our function of advising, helping and assisting so it is routine for our office to get a copy of all these telegrams. Practically every telegram that goes back and forth between the Embassy in Moscow and the Department, both ways, comes through our office.

Mr. Coleman. What did you do after you received the telegram, or saw a copy of the telegram?

Miss James. I think we took no action at that time. We read it with a great deal of interest, as we do all of this type of case of a potential defector, and a person who is an American citizen who is renouncing American citizenship is very unusual. I don't recall any action except that I know it was a source, I mean the subject of unhappy conversation in the office, to see this man carrying on this type of action.

Mr. Coleman. You knew, didn't you, that within 2 or 3 days after the telegram was received, that the State Department sent a reply to the Embassy?

Miss James. I must have seen it. I notice from the file copy I cleared it, but I don't remember that exact telegram.

Mr. Coleman. I show you Commission Exhibit No. 916, which is a copy of the telegram.

Miss James. I recall this.

Mr. Coleman. You do recall it?

Miss James. I do.

Mr. Coleman. Do you recall clearing the text of it?

Miss James. I can't recall clearing the text of it, but I am perfectly sure that it was a natural thing for me to clear the text.

Mr. Coleman. They normally would clear it with your office?

Miss James. Yes.

Mr. Coleman. And so, therefore, when it is recorded in the lower left-hand corner that it had been cleared with you, you have no doubt of the accuracy of that statement?

Miss James. I have no reason to doubt.

Mr. Coleman. The accuracy of that statement?

Miss James. Because we, the Office of Soviet Union Affairs, try to get all offices in the Department to clear everything that is going to Moscow.

Mr. Coleman. After clearing the telegram, what was the next time that you had anything to do with the name Oswald, to the best of your knowledge?

Miss James. As I recall, we had a copy of the report that came in from the Embassy telling more in detail about his appearance at the Embassy, and I also read it in the Washington papers.

Mr. Coleman. Could we mark as James Exhibit No. 1, and I show you—a reference sheet from Bernice Waterman to EE:SOV, Virginia James, under date of November 25, 1959, and I ask you do you remember seeing that reference sheet?

182 (The document referred to was marked James Exhibit No. 1 for identification.)

Miss James. Yes; I remember seeing it in this form [pointing to document in the file].

Mr. Coleman. That [James Exhibit No. 1] is a photostatic copy?

Miss James. Yes; I mean the yellow [copy in the file] I recall.

Mr. Coleman. Do you know why you asked them to send you a copy of the telegram of November 2?

Miss James. Again, it is in accordance with my continuing responsibility to follow these cases of visa and passport matters, and the only way we can be informed is to have all the incoming and outgoing correspondence.

Mr. Coleman. After you received that document which has been marked as James Exhibit No. 1, did you receive other material from Miss Waterman in connection with Oswald during the period November 2, 1959, to July 1961?

Miss James. I don't recall having received anything from Miss Waterman, but I am sure that we would have had copies of anything coming back and forth, back from the Embassy on the case which we would have read.

Mr. Coleman. So, therefore, you would say that you or someone in your office should have received in the normal course every Embassy Despatch dealing with Oswald that went to the Department of State?

Miss James. Routine. In fact, it would have been out of order if we hadn't gotten it.

Mr. Coleman. Did you early in December 1959 draft a letter for Mr. Davis' signature to Mr. Snyder dealing with the general question of how he should handle people who want to renounce their citizenship in the Soviet Union?

Miss James. May I ask is that the letter in which we tried to give him helpful advice in handling cases of people who tried to renounce?

Mr. Coleman. Yes.

Miss James. Yes; and, as I recall—if it is the letter I think—it included several paragraphs that had been contributed by Mr. Hickey in the Passport Office. I am not sure that is the one. I would like to see it, please.

Mr. Coleman. I show you a photostatic copy of a letter which has already been marked Commission Exhibit No. 915. It is from Nathaniel Davis to Richard E. Snyder, and it is under date of December 10, 1959, and it is State Department File Document No. XIII-40. I ask you whether you drafted that letter.

Miss James. As I recall, I did. I am sure I did, in fact.

Mr. Coleman. You were replying to Mr. Snyder's letter to Mr. Boster, under date of October 28, 1959, which has already been marked as Commission Exhibit No. 914, is that correct?

Miss James. As I read this letter, it didn't refer specifically to the Oswald case.

Mr. Coleman. That is because the Oswald case hadn't yet occurred.

Miss James. Yes; I mean the effect of renouncing. I mean it had no relation; yes. He had called that in. Yes; I remember that. This isn't the one, though. You just handed me one by Mr. Snyder to Mr. Davis.

Mr. Coleman. Yes.

Miss James. Now, you asked me if I drafted it. I did draft it.

Mr. Coleman. Miss James, I take it that after you drafted the letter of December 10, Commission Exhibit No. 915, that from that time until some time in July 1961 that you had no knowledge of any actions with respect to Oswald.

Miss James. As I recall, I did not, unless, as I say, there had been something in from Moscow in the ordinary routine way it would have gone across my desk.

Mr. Coleman. On July 11, 1961, or shortly thereafter, perhaps on July 12, the State Department received a Foreign Service Despatch dated July 11, 1961, from the American Embassy in Moscow, which has already been marked as Commission Exhibit No. 935. I show you a photostatic copy of Commission Exhibit No. 935 and ask you whether you have seen the original or a copy of that document?

Miss James. Yes; I recall this.

Mr. Coleman. Now, after you saw that, what did you do?

Miss James. As I recall, at that time, in 1961, through that period there were183 several persons in the Soviet Union who attempted or could be placed in the category of defectors. Webster was one, these various people that Mr. Snyder mentioned, and this was a very serious question. We discussed these matters in our office, and so when we saw this, we immediately were interested in it, and the most important thing to our mind was what answer is going to be made to it. So I think I called Miss Waterman and wanted to know what the Passport Office, what action they were going to take on the letter, and told her that SOV was interested and we wanted to clear it, as I recall.

Mr. Coleman. Did you speak first to Mr. Boster about it?

Miss James. Yes; I would have talked to Mr. Boster about this. He was interested in it.

Mr. Coleman. Who is he?

Miss James. He was officer in charge of our office at that time.

Mr. Coleman. Was he your superior?

Miss James. Yes.

Mr. Coleman. What did you tell Miss Waterman?

Miss James. As I recall, I would not have made any policy, any effort to judge what they would do, but I would only say we want to know what action you are going to take. That is the way I recall that I would handle it.

Mr. Coleman. Did you say that the Passport Office was the only office of the State Department whose communications to Moscow are not cleared in the SOV?

Miss James. Miss Waterman says I did, and I wouldn't be surprised if I had said it. I know we all felt many times that we would like to have had more of the communications cleared with us, and I have no doubt that I must have said it if she said I did.

Mr. Coleman. Do you recall her replying that she had never heard that——

Miss James. Yes; I do remember at one time she said she didn't recall that this was a necessity, that they had to clear everything with us.

Mr. Coleman. But she did tell you that she would put a memorandum in the file to show that there was a special interest of the SOV in the reply to the Embassy Despatch of July 11?

Miss James. Yes.

Mr. Coleman. What was the special interest of the SOV?

Miss James. Again, it is the same interest I outlined before, which is our responsibility of advising and knowing what is going on in the Embassy in Moscow. We are the political office. We are responsible for the Embassy, and we work together very closely, and we want to be sure that what they send in is answered, how it is answered, and it is our routine way of working to be sure that any despatch is answered, and especially one of this type where we are interested in the case because of the nature of the case.

Mr. Coleman. I show you an operations memorandum from the Department of State to the American Embassy in Moscow, dated August 18, 1961, which has already been marked as Commission Exhibit No. 939, and I ask you if you saw a copy of that memorandum at or around the time when it was sent, namely in August 1961?

Miss James. My reply is we should have seen it, but whether we did or not I don't think we did according to this file.

Mr. Coleman. You are saying there is nothing on the file which indicates that you got a copy.

Miss James. Nothing on the file that indicates we had it.

Mr. Coleman. You said that——

Miss James. But I think we must have known that they made this decision.

Mr. Coleman. Did you have anything to do with the making of the decision?

Miss James. No; I don't think I can say we had anything to do with the making of the decision. Those matters are legal decisions, and the Passport Office would make it on the basis of their information.

Mr. Coleman. You or your office never called, to the best of your knowledge——

Miss James. To needle them on to make it? No.

Mr. Coleman. To make it one way or the other?

184 Miss James. No.

Mr. Coleman. Could you tell me from your file the next document that you looked at after receiving a copy of the Embassy despatch of July 11, 1961?

Miss James. I have some notes I think will help me better than the file which isn't in chronological order. I think it would have been the Embassy report asking for a security advisory opinion on Mrs. Oswald's visa application, which would be August 28, 1961, Commission No. X-26——

Mr. Coleman. You mean State Department number.

Miss James. I say, State Department No. X-26(2).

Mr. Coleman. Can the record show that the Commission exhibit number on that document is Commission Exhibit No. 944.

Now, you say you received a copy of the August 28, 1961——

Miss James. Yes, sir; I received that.

Mr. Coleman. Operations memorandum——

Miss James. Twenty-five.

Mr. Coleman. Now, after you received a copy, what did you do?

Miss James. I have no exact remembrance of that, but I can tell you what my practice is. In receiving a document like this, and we have many cases similar, I keep it some place handy, and I will check with the Visa Office and see what they are going to do about it, and are they going to—are they handling it. Then we follow through to see if she is passed by the various security offices. We are aware when these come in that a person has an exit visa. This time it was before the exit visa, I think. Yes—well, we were trying to get this case prepared so it wouldn't be held up in Moscow because of investigations that might be delayed on this side.

Mr. Coleman. Why would you do that?

Miss James. Only because it is our regular practice to expedite these matters.

Mr. Coleman. Wouldn't that depend upon whether the case was meritorious or not?

Miss James. Yes; but I mean as a general thing we would expedite, hoping it would be expedited until it its turned down. Then if it is turned down, that is the end of it.

Mr. Coleman. What you are saying is that SOV just wants to make sure that all the paperwork gets done, that you are really not making the decisions but you don't want any decision held up on the ground that the papers aren't there, but you have no particular interest which way the decision would be made?

Miss James. Yes; we have an interest in that. We know from our policy what we think is good for the U.S. Government, and we would hope that cases are handled in that framework.

Mr. Coleman. Would you say that there was a decision in the Oswald case that the best thing for the United States was to get Oswald out of Moscow, Russia, and back to the United States, even if he had renounced his citizenship?

Miss James. I can't go on that because that is a supposition, but on the basis of the case we felt that it was better for the U.S. Government to bring Oswald back.

Mr. Coleman. Who made that decision?

Miss James. Again, that is our general policy. When we received this OMV asking for an advisory opinion on Mrs. Oswald's visa application, we already knew that the Passport Office had approved her husband's citizenship.

Mr. Coleman. So you say, therefore, that once it was clear that Oswald was still an American citizen, that you felt it was to the interests of the United States?

Miss James. Of the United States?

Mr. Coleman. To get him out of Russia?

Miss James. To get him out of the Soviet Union, and also to bring his family.

Mr. Coleman. Now, could you look in file No. VIII of the State Department, Document No. 21. Is that a telegram?

Miss James. No; that is a wire.

Mr. Coleman. Would you read what it says? Will you describe to whom it is sent and tell me what it means?

185 Miss James. It says, it is addressed to the American Embassy in Moscow and refers to this request for an advisory opinion——

Mr. Coleman. It has typed thereon: SOV, Miss James. You signed it, didn't you?

Miss James. No; this was the Visa Office telegram, and in fact I didn't initial that telegram. It has my name on it, but Mr. Owen initialed it.

Mr. Coleman. Does it have your name?

Miss James. It has my name typed on it, but Mr. Owen initialed it.

Mr. Coleman. On October 3, 1961, a cable was sent to the Embassy in Moscow having something to do with Oswald. Would you indicate for the record what the cable said?

Miss James. As I understand it, the cable authorized the American Embassy in Moscow to issue a visa to Mrs. Oswald if when she appeared there was nothing against her otherwise derogatory, and the cable also indicated that her membership in the Trade Union would not affect the issuance of a visa, that such membership did not indicate that she was a Communist.

Mr. Coleman. Now, the cable or the copy that I have seen indicates that it was typed by you, at least your name appears on it.

Miss James. No; it was drafted by the Visa Office, drafted by V. Smith, typed by initials RLC, signed in the Visa Office by Frank L. Auerbach, and sent to the Soviet Desk, Office of Soviet Union Affairs, for clearance, typed "SOV Miss James" and in parentheses "(in substance)," and I apparently was out that day and it has Mr. Owen's initials on it, and there is another initial which I don't identify, but mine are not on that.

Mr. Coleman. But to the best of your recollection you never saw that or had anything to do with it?

Miss James. Never saw that cable, but I was aware that they approved it.

Mr. Coleman. Had there been some discussion of the operation memorandum of August 28, 1961, Commission Exhibit No. 944, in your office as to whether Mrs. Marina Oswald was eligible for a nonquota immigrant visa?

Miss James. I don't recall any special detailed discussion, except that this was a case, an unusual case, which we would be interested in following.

Mr. Coleman. Were you the one in the office who had the initial contact with the INS, in connection with the waiver of section 243(g)?

Miss James. As I recall, I had no contact with INS at that time. I never remember discussing these cases directly with INS. Our conversations were all with the Visa Office.

Mr. Coleman. You dealt directly with the Visa Office?

Miss James. Yes.

Mr. Coleman. Is Mr. Crump in your office?

Miss James. I was going to say I dealt with Mr. Crump in the Visa Office at that time.

Mr. Coleman. But he is not in your office?

Miss James. No; he was in the Visa Office, now assigned abroad.

Mr. Coleman. Did you know that the Visa Office had made a request of INS to get it to, (1) determine whether Mrs. Oswald was eligible to come into the country, and, (2) whether it would waive the section 243(g) provision? I just asked you, Miss James, what you knew. When was the first time you knew that——

Miss James. When Mr. Crump told me that INS had approved the petition of the husband but had not approved the request for waiver of section No. 243(g).

Mr. Coleman. Prior to that time, you had nothing to do with the visa request or the section 243(g) waiver?

Miss James. No; I don't recall having anything to do with it.

Mr. Coleman. Do you recall——

Miss James. As I recall, it was a surprise to me that it was refused.

Mr. Coleman. But you had nothing to do with the first petition?

Miss James. No.

Mr. Coleman. You weren't the one that sent the petition from the Department of State to INS?

Miss James. No; that is routine visa work.

Mr. Coleman. Do you recall when Mr. Crump informed you that INS had refused to grant the waiver under section 243(g)?

186 Miss James. I don't recall the date. I do recall his informing me that they had had this information from INS that the petition was approved, but that the section 243(g) waiver was not approved and, therefore, it looked as though Mrs. Oswald would not be able to come directly to the United States. If she came at all she would have to go via another country that did not have this sanction against it.

Mr. Coleman. Could you explain for the record just what the sanction is under section 243(g)?

Miss James. Yes; the sanction is that the United States will not issue an immigration visa to a citizen of a country which refuses to accept a deportee from the United States based on the reasoning that if you can't deport to that country, if a person turns out to be an unsatisfactory immigrant, you are stuck with that immigrant.

Mr. Coleman. Does that mean that the person cannot come into the United States?

Miss James. No; it means that Mrs. Oswald could have gone to Belgium, France, England, any other country that accepts deportees, and applied for an immigration visa and have been admitted without any question on a section 243(g) waiver.

Mr. Coleman. I have marked as James Exhibit No. 2 a memorandum from Robert I. Owen to John E. Crump, under date of March 16, 1962, and the subject of the memorandum is: "Operation of sanctions imposed by Section 243(g) of the Immigration and Nationality Act in case of Mrs. Marina N. Oswald."

(The document referred to was marked James Deposition Exhibit No. 2, for identification.)

Mr. Coleman. Did you prepare the original of that memorandum.

Miss James. Yes; I prepared it under Mr. Owen's supervision.

Mr. Coleman. Do you recall Mr. Owen asking you to prepare it?

Miss James. This was my responsibility, this case, but I had long discussions with Mr. Owen on the case as to how we should proceed with it before I wrote the memorandum.

Mr. Coleman. And Mr. Owen told you, "Why don't you draft a memorandum for Mr. Crump explaining to him the situation?"

Miss James. We came to agreement in a talk as to how to handle the case, and I drafted the memorandum which would go to Mr. Crump because he was the officer in the Visa Office handling the case.

Mr. Coleman. In the third paragraph of the memorandum it is stated that: "SOV believes it is in the interest of the U.S. to get Lee Harvey Oswald and his family out of the Soviet Union and on their way to this country soon. An unstable character, whose actions are entirely unpredictable, Oswald may well refuse to leave the USSR or subsequently attempt to return there if we should make it impossible for him to be accompanied from Moscow by his wife and child."

Did you draft that?

Miss James. Yes.

Mr. Coleman. Was this language that Mr. Owen had discussed with you and told you to put in the memorandum?

Miss James. My way of working is to draft a memorandum in rough draft. I give it to Mr. Owen. He and I—he might well have put in some few words. I don't know just where he would have changed it or whether he did change it. I can't say. It is impossible to say at this time unless I had the original draft, but I know he was in agreement with this.

Mr. Coleman. Were you the one that brought up the point that Oswald was an unstable character, or was that something Mr. Owen contributed?

Miss James. I believe the Department—I will say our office was sure that he was an unstable character by the very fact that he had tried to renounce his American citizenship, and then come—by the fact he had tried to renounce his American citizenship, makes him an unstable character to me.

Mr. Coleman. Was it your thought that once he got out of Russia and back into the United States, that we wouldn't let him go back again?

Miss James. I think we would have—I would have, based on my work in the office, I would have hoped we would have done everything to keep him from187 going back. Whether the passport regulations would have made this possible, I don't know.

Mr. Coleman. You never wrote a memorandum to the Passport Office, though?

Miss James. No; that if he applies again, don't let him go back—no; we did not.

Mr. Coleman. Why didn't you do that in the light of the fact——

Miss James. Because there was no reason at this time. He was in the Soviet Union trying to get out, and it would not have occurred to me to predict that 5 years from now he might want to go back and we should put a stop on his passport. In fact, I don't ever recall taking such action.

Mr. Coleman. After you drafted this memorandum, did you send the telegram to the Embassy which you suggest in the last paragraph should be sent?

Miss James. I did not send any telegram as far as I know. If it had been sent, it would have been sent by the Visa Office on the basis of our recommendation. I would assume if they agreed to this memorandum, they sent it.

Mr. Coleman. Was the memorandum which I have marked as James Exhibit No. 2 in any way motivated or written as a result of the telegram dated March 15, 1962, which you received from the Embassy in Moscow, which says: "Please advise when decision on petition in 243(g) waiver Lee Oswald wife may be expected," which I have marked as James Exhibit No. 3 and am showing you a copy of it.

(The document referred to was marked James Exhibit No. 3 for identification.)

Miss James. May I have you repeat that question again, please?

Mr. Coleman. I am asking you was the memorandum of March 16, 1962, drafted by you, which we have marked as James Exhibit No. 2, in any way motivated by the telegram from the Embassy dated March 15, which I have marked as James Exhibit No. 3? It came out of State Department file IV-13.

Miss James. My memory is that it was not motivated in entirety, although undoubtedly the telegram brought the case to our attention. As I recall in those days or weeks preceding March 16, I had been in conversation with Mr. Crump and Mr. Owen and I had been discussing the case, and I cannot be sure, but I believe that we would have had this in our mind before the telegram came in. But undoubtedly the telegram would make us expedite the writing of this memorandum.

Mr. Coleman. After you wrote the memorandum of March 16, 1961, did you draft the letter which Mr. Crump sent to INS, asking it to reconsider its original decision that it would not waive section 243(g)?

Miss James. May I see a copy of that letter? You asked me if I drafted it?

Mr. Coleman. Yes.

Miss James. No; I did not draft it, but I believe some of the reasoning in the letter was based on the memorandum from SOV.

Mr. Coleman. Can you tell me who drafted it?

Miss James. Mr. Crump has his initials on the file copy. Again, I didn't clear that outgoing letter. Mr. Owen cleared it.

Mr. Coleman. Did you draft a memorandum from Mr. Hale to Mr. Cieplinski, dated March 20, 1962, or did Mr. Crump draft that?

Miss James. Mr. Crump drafted that.

Mr. Coleman. March 20, 1962.

Miss James. We have March 23 from Hale to Cieplinski. It was drafted on the 20th, apparently sent on the 23d.

Mr. Coleman. I will mark as James Exhibit No. 3-A a memorandum from Mr. Hale to Mr. Cieplinski in re immigrant visa of Mrs. Marina H. Oswald, and ask you whether you have seen a copy of that document.

Miss James. Yes.

Mr. Coleman. You got a copy, but you didn't draft it?

Miss James. No; you said, did I see a copy of it, I thought.

Mr. Coleman. Yes; and is that the same document that you described as the memorandum dated March 23?

Miss James. Yes.

Mr. Coleman. After the memorandum——

Miss James. May I have a moment, please, to read this letter that they sent to the INS?

188 Mr. Coleman. Sure.

Miss James. Which I don't remember seeing before.

Mr. Coleman. You didn't draft that letter?

Miss James. No. Thank you.

Mr. Coleman. You say you didn't draft that?

Miss James. No; it was drafted in the Visa Office.

Mr. Coleman. But you knew that it had gone out, I take it?

Miss James. I received a copy of it, so, therefore, I knew that they had sent this to the head of the Special Consular Administration at that time, SCA.

Mr. Coleman. Now after——

Miss James. Special Consular Affairs, I beg your pardon.

Mr. Coleman. After that letter was sent out, did you have occasion to call INS, and ask them to find out what the status of the letter was?

Miss James. To the best of my memory I never called INS on this case.

Mr. Coleman. My problem is I have a letter here which is from Robinson to Michael Cieplinski, and it says at the bottom: "5-29-62 Miss James SOV called to say she had received letter from Mr. Oswald's mother saying he had written he had no money and was unable to travel."

Miss James. I would have called the Visa Office on that. That doesn't mean I called INS.

Mr. Coleman. Oh, I see. All your calls were to the Visa Office?

Miss James. Yes; in fact, I think I am clear that in saying that there is a policy that all approaches to INS are through the Visa Office.

Mr. Coleman. I will mark as James Exhibit No. 4 a copy of a letter from Robert H. Robinson to Mr. Michael Cieplinski, dated May 9, 1962, and I ask you whether you have seen a copy of that letter.

(The document referred to was marked James Exhibit No. 4 for identification.)

Miss James. I don't recall having seen it at the time. I do recall reading it in the file prior to my coming to this meeting.

Mr. Coleman. Do you recall making the call that they at the bottom said you made?

Miss James. I am sure that I did if Mr. Crump put his initials on it. I don't remember it. I do remember the letter from Mr. Oswald's mother. In fact, I had some telephone calls from her, also.

Mr. Coleman. Do you recall receiving a copy of a telegram from the Embassy at Moscow, which telegram is dated May 4, 1962, which I have marked as James Exhibit No. 5?

(The document referred to was marked James Exhibit No. 5 for identification.)

Mr. Coleman. Have you seen that telegram?

Miss James. An information copy came to EUR, which is European Bureau, and I am sure that that means that an information copy came on down to the Office of Soviet Union Affairs, and I would have seen it, and that is why I called to inquire about the case.

Mr. Coleman. And there is a note on there that on May 8, 1962, you called to inquire about the case and apparently you were told that the waiver had been granted.

Miss James. Yes.

Mr. Coleman. Do you know why you made the call?

Miss James. Well, I would have considered, reading it today, that this is an urgent telegram from the Embassy in Moscow wanting some action from the Department, and I would have made the call to try to get done what the Embassy was pleading for, action one way or the other on this case.

Mr. Coleman. Did you clear this with anybody else within the office?

Miss James. There is nothing to clear on this, only that I called to find out—I might well have talked to Mr. Owen about this telegram. I am sure he saw it. The general routing is for telegrams to go through the officer in charge to the person who handles the specific subject, but it has been a part of my duty to have called them to——

Mr. Coleman. And you say that as a result of getting the telegram from Moscow, that you without consulting with anybody else in the office would call and find out the status?

Miss James. I wouldn't have to have any further instruction on that telegram.

189 Mr. Coleman. I would then like to show you a document which has been marked as Commission—James Exhibit No. 7 which is a telegram to the American Embassy in Moscow, dated May 8, 1962, and ask you whether you sent that telegram.

(The document referred to was marked James Exhibit No. 7 for identification.)

Miss James. That telegram was sent by the Visa Office of the Department, and was apparently cleared by me telephonically and initialed by Mr. Crump as having cleared with me over the telephone.

Mr. Coleman. Oh, I see, Mr. Crump is in the Visa Office?

Miss James. Yes; now this gives me a lead to another paper back there, where I said I had not seen it. It had Mr. Owen's initials or some initials, which I couldn't identify.

I now identify those initials as Mr. Crump's initials, and, after that, it said Miss James, in substance. I now realize that he had probably telephoned to me, cleared it in substance, initialed it, sent it up to SOV, and Mr. Owen put his initials on it, and I never had my initials on it for that reason.

Mr. Coleman. In other words, you say that this telegram which I have marked as James Exhibit No. 7, was actually drafted by Mr. Crump as a result of Mr. Crump's office finding out that the waiver had been granted?

Miss James. Yes.

Mr. Coleman. That they called you, told you what they were going to do, and you said, "Fine," and that is how your name got on the telegram?

Miss James. That is why my name is there and Mr. Crump's initials above it show that he was the officer who cleared it with me.

Mr. Coleman. Now, I take it in the document that I have marked as James Exhibit No. 8, which is a telegram dated March 20, 1962, in which the Embassy at Moscow was instructed to "withhold action on Department's OMV 61" because the sanction is being reconsidered. That telegram also was not drafted by you, and the only reason why your name appears on it is that it was cleared with you over the telephone.

(The document referred to was marked James Exhibit No. 8 for identification.)

Miss James. Yes; and, again, although that was cleared, those are my initials, VHJ, that is my initials. It was apparently cleared over the phone telephonically and also sent it up to us and Mr. Owen and I each initialed it, VHJ, and O for Owen.

Mr. Coleman. But the fact that your name appeared on the telegrams doesn't mean you wrote them?

Miss James. No; you see, the way the telegrams are in the State Department, that first line says drafted by, and then underneath is clearances, and those offices are clearing offices.

Mr. Coleman. And could you identify for me a letter which I have marked James Exhibit No. 6, which is a letter from Michael Cieplinski to Mr. Farrell, dated March 27, 1962. I ask you whether that is a copy of the letter which was sent forward to the Immigration Service asking them to reconsider the waiver?

Miss James. This exhibit is a photostatic copy of the file copy which is in the file I am examining, and it is an exact copy. I did not clear it.

Mr. Coleman. As far as you know, that is a copy of the letter?

Miss James. An exact copy; yes. I see the initials are carried through. Everything is exactly the way the file copy is, the Department's file copy.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. Coleman. I would like to mark as James Exhibit No. 9 a transmittal slip under date of March 16, 1962, and it bears the signature which purports to be Virginia H. James, and I ask you whether that is your signature that appears thereon.

Miss James. Yes.

Mr. Coleman. Now, what occasioned your sending this transmittal slip to the American Embassy and the attachment?

Miss James. We wanted the Embassy in Moscow to know what we were doing on the despatches and telegrams that they sent in, and that we were in agreement with their recommendation, that we were making these recommendations190 to the Visa Office, and this would more or less give them some assurance that their recommendations were in harmony with our thinking. This is the way we work, very closely with the Embassy in Moscow.

When we are in harmony with what they do, we write memos through the Department. We frequently send memos to them so they say, "Well, we have made the right recommendation. The Political Office is supporting us and now we wait for the other offices in the Department."

Mr. Coleman. Were you aware, did you know, or did you have anything to do with suggesting to the Embassy that they should try to send Mrs. Marina Oswald into the country by her first going to Brussels?

Miss James. No; except that is a regular procedure that we use, we call it third country procedure. The immigrant can't come directly to the United States. They do go to another country.

Mr. Coleman. But you were not the one to suggest it in the Oswald case?

Miss James. No; it is established procedure, though. It would not be unusual for any officer in the Visa Office to think of that.

Mr. Coleman. But you didn't suggest it?

Miss James. No; I did not.

Mr. Coleman. Now, when Mr. Oswald came into the country—when Oswald left Moscow, I take it you were informed the day he left or the day after he left, and did you receive a copy of the telegram from Moscow to the State Department, dated May 31?

Miss James. Yes; our office received it, SOV.

Mr. Coleman. I have marked that as James Exhibit No. 10.

(The document referred to was marked James Exhibit No. 10, for identification.)

Miss James. Yes.

Mr. Coleman. And you then, after he got back, drafted a letter to Oswald's mother?

Miss James. Yes.

Mr. Coleman. I will mark that as James Exhibit No. 11.

(The document referred to was marked James Exhibit No. 11 for identification.)

Mr. Coleman. This is in file IV, a copy of it. I show you a copy of a letter from Robert I. Owen to Mrs. Oswald, under date of June 7, 1962, and ask you whether that is the letter.

Miss James. Yes; I drafted that letter. I recall it.

Mr. Coleman. Now, in connection with the Oswald case, was there any instance where you wanted to do one thing but somebody told you no, something else would have to be done?

Miss James. In the Oswald case?

Mr. Coleman. Yes.

Miss James. We worked in harmony on these cases. The Visa Office is very well—harmonize with SOV policy on these cases. There is no bickering or unpleasantness or somebody pulling one way or the other. We seem to go along with them. Every time one comes up they go along in the regular way based upon established policy.

Mr. Coleman. There was no instance where you said, "I think that this ought to be done" and somebody said, "I don't care what you think, this is the way it should be done."

Miss James. No.

Mr. Coleman. In all these cases you discussed the problem with the Visa Office and you reached a mutual agreement. You never had a dispute?

Miss James. I recall no such feeling or reactions.

Mr. Coleman. You had indicated earlier, Miss James, that there was a general policy in your office to see that husbands and wives were not separated. Would you want to describe for the record just what that policy was?

Miss James. May I go back historically?

Mr. Coleman. Yes.

Miss James. Since the time we first recognized the Soviet Union, we have had these cases of separated families, spouses, husbands and wives and children and other relatives who by some reason or another, mostly because of the operation191 of Communist policy, have become separated from their American citizen families. And from the time we first recognized the Soviets, this has been a problem there. Files are filled with notes to the Soviet Government asking them to please issue exit visas to permit certain relatives to join families in the United States. This has gone on, and I remember hearing an officer say that if the result of recognizing the Soviet Union was for no other reason than to assist these people this was a very powerful reason. During World War II no visas were issued and nobody traveled and this died. Right after the war we again had the problem of people trying to get their relatives out, and the number was greatly increased by Russia taking over those various countries, Lithuania, Estonia, parts of Poland, parts of Czechoslovakia, Rumania went into the Soviet Union, and we had the number greatly enlarged.

Then, in addition to that, because of war operations, American citizens were stationed in the Soviet Union and they had married Soviet women, and so we had pressing cases of correspondents. American correspondents, a few people assigned to the Embassy in Moscow who married Soviet wives, probably about 15 or 16 who were very, what we would call, worthy cases of good marriages and good people who had made a good marriage with women we thought were good people, and they have since made good American citizens.

So in 1953, when Stalin died, we had the first break, and they issued the visas on this group. And since then we have gone forward with this. We saw we had a break and so we have been pressing the Soviet Government to issue visas to clear this problem up.

In 1959 when Mr. Nixon went there, he was importuned by relatives to help to get their relatives out, I mean American citizens, and he took a list of about 80 people, and he agreed to take up these cases, and we added a number of worthy cases, and Mr. Khrushchev said, "I want to clear up this problem"—present it through channels.

Since then, we have presented it through channels and we have succeeded in getting about 800 relatives of American citizens out. And the defector's wife falls into that pattern, because while we are not sympathetic with these people we know that if we refuse to grant U.S. visas to a wife of an American citizen, the Soviet Government can immediately say, "Well, we grant visas to these people, exit visas. Then you don't allow them to go to the United States. What does this mean?"

So that was the basis of our whole policy with Marina Oswald, that we felt that we didn't want to put the Embassy in a position of fighting for exit visas for relatives, and then when they issue you say, "Well, this is not quite the kind we want."

Mr. Coleman. In other words, you say that once the Passport Office made the decision that Oswald was still an American citizen, then your policy that you don't want to separate husbands and wives came into play, and if the Soviet Union is willing to let both of them out, that we will let them come in?

Miss James. That is the basic policy. That was the whole interest in our Office, the Embassy in Moscow's primary interest there as far as Marina Oswald was concerned, and her child.

Mr. Coleman. I have no further questions.

Thank you.


TESTIMONY OF JAMES L. RITCHIE

The testimony of James L. Ritchie was taken at 12:20 p.m., on June 17, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Messrs. William T. Coleman, Jr., and W. David Slawson, assistant counsel of the President's Commission, Thomas Ehrlich, Special Assistant to the Legal Adviser, Department of State, and Carroll H. Seeley, Jr., were present.

Mr. Coleman. Mr. Ritchie, will you state your full name?

Mr. Ritchie. James L. Ritchie.

192 Mr. Coleman. Will you raise your right hand? Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give is the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. Ritchie. I do.

Mr. Coleman. Please state your name and address.

Mr. Ritchie. James L. Ritchie, 5010 North 13th Street, Arlington, Va.

Mr. Coleman. Our information is, sir, that some time around October 22, 1963, you had occasion to look at the Oswald file——

Mr. Ritchie. I did.

Mr. Coleman. After the Department received a telegram from the CIA indicating that Oswald had made an inquiry at the Russian Embassy in Mexico City, and that you took certain action as a result of looking at the file?

Mr. Ritchie. I did.

Mr. Coleman. And that is what we want to ask you about, sir. But before I do that, let me ask you a few preliminary questions.

Mr. Ritchie. Certainly.

Mr. Coleman. You have given your address, is that correct?

Mr. Ritchie. Yes, sir.

Mr. Coleman. Where are you presently working?

Mr. Ritchie. State Department Passport Office, Legal Division.

Mr. Coleman. And what is your position?

Mr. Ritchie. Attorney advisor.

Mr. Coleman. And how long have you been in that capacity?

Mr. Ritchie. Nine or ten years.

Mr. Coleman. Are you a member of the Bar?

Mr. Ritchie. Yes; District of Columbia.

Mr. Coleman. When was the first time you ever heard the name Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. Ritchie. October 22, 1963.

Mr. Coleman. And would you indicate what occasioned your hearing the name?

Mr. Ritchie. The Security Division transmitted a telegram from the CIA marked Secret, to the Passport Office. It was received in the Legal Division October 16, and it had been marked "Mr. Anderson, pull previous" which means get the file, and it was then handed to me October 21, approximately.

Mr. Coleman. Who handed it to you?

Mr. Ritchie. I don't know. It was placed on my desk. I imagine the file——

Mr. Coleman. Prior to that time, you hadn't called for the file? You knew nothing about the case?

Mr. Ritchie. No; I knew nothing about it. It had been placed on my desk for review. I read the telegram, noted that copies had been sent to SCA, that is the Bureau of Security and Consular Affairs, CMA, Mexico, the Soviet desk, and the press section of RAR.

Mr. Seeley. American Republics Political Division.

Mr. Coleman. Then what did you do after you got the telegram?

Mr. Ritchie. I reviewed the entire file.

Mr. Coleman. That means you read every document in the file?

Mr. Ritchie. Yes.

Mr. Coleman. And do you have any idea how long it took you?

Mr. Ritchie. Not more than a half hour.

Mr. Coleman. And then what did you do after you read or reviewed the file?

Mr. Ritchie. I don't want to say I read every item. I read the majority.

Mr. Coleman. As a lawyer?

Mr. Ritchie. Yes; I glanced over it.

Mr. Coleman. You read what you felt was relevant?

Mr. Ritchie. Relevant.

Mr. Coleman. But you did thumb through every document?

Mr. Ritchie. Yes.

Mr. Coleman. What did you then do?

Mr. Ritchie. I made a judgment there was no passport action to be taken, and marked the file to be filed.

Mr. Coleman. Did you make a written memorandum?

193 Mr. Ritchie. No, sir; just put "file" on it.

Mr. Coleman. Did you discuss it with Mr. Seeley or anyone else?

Mr. Ritchie. I took the file to Mr. Seeley.

Mr. Coleman. Did you summarize for him what was in the file?

Mr. Ritchie. No; I did not. I don't know what my exact words were to him. I must have said, "Look at this."

Mr. Coleman. Didn't you say to him, "This guy was a defector"?

Mr. Ritchie. I don't recall what I said to him, back in October. I know I said something to him. I directed his attention to it.

Mr. Coleman. Then did he discuss it with you?

Mr. Ritchie. No.

Mr. Coleman. You put the file on his desk and you didn't have anything to do with it?

Mr. Ritchie. That is right.

Mr. Coleman. Why did you put it on his desk?

Mr. Ritchie. He was in charge of the section, and I just brought it to him for his attention.

Mr. Coleman. Would you do that with every file that you are asked to review?

Mr. Ritchie. Those files that I thought should be brought to his attention; yes.

Mr. Coleman. So, therefore, you felt that this file was other than just the routine file that you would look at and put back?

Mr. Ritchie. Yes, sir.

Mr. Coleman. Wouldn't you tell Mr. Seeley something as to why you thought it was other than routine?

Mr. Ritchie. No, sir; I just said "Look at it." I presume I just directed his attention to the file, and that he should look at it.

Mr. Coleman. And then you had no more discussion with him?

Mr. Ritchie. None that I can recall.

Mr. Coleman. Did you say anything to him, like for example, "This guy the last time he was abroad tried to, or at least threatened that he would give to the Soviets whatever he had learned in the Marine Corps with reference to our radar information"?

Mr. Ritchie. I have no recollection of my conversation with Mr. Seeley. All I know is my usual procedure is I review a case. If there is no passport action to be taken, I place it, mark it "file" and place it in the box to go to file.

Mr. Coleman. Without Mr. Seeley taking a look at it?

Mr. Ritchie. Without Mr. Seeley ever seeing it.

Mr. Coleman. And this one you felt——

Mr. Ritchie. And this one I felt he should see.

Mr. Coleman. But you didn't give him any memorandum——

Mr. Ritchie. No, sir.

Mr. Coleman. Or point out what he should look at?

Mr. Ritchie. I may have directed his attention to the case, but I have no independent recollection of it.

Mr. Coleman. Then after October 22, 1963, you had no contact with Oswald, the file or anything else?

Mr. Ritchie. No, sir; let me change that. I reviewed the file before I came here. I have reviewed the file.

Mr. Coleman. Oh, sure.

That is all. Thank you, sir.


TESTIMONY OF CARROLL HAMILTON SEELEY, JR.

The testimony of Carroll Hamilton Seeley, Jr., was taken at 11 a.m., on June 17, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Messrs. William T. Coleman, Jr., and W. David Slawson, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Thomas Ehrlich, Esq., Special Assistant to the Legal Adviser, Department of State, and James L. Ritchie, were present.

194

Mr. Coleman. Would you state your full name, please, sir?

Mr. Seeley. Carroll Hamilton Seeley, Jr.

Mr. Coleman. Would you raise your right hand, please?

Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give in this deposition is the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. Seeley. I do.

Mr. Coleman. Sir, I would like to state that you have been called and asked to give a deposition because in looking through certain files supplied us by the State Department, there are indications that you had something to do with one or more of the documents in the file, and we also want to ask you concerning what you did after you received information that a person named Lee Harvey Oswald was at the Soviet Embassy in Mexico City some time around the first of October. As we understand it you received such notice on or about the 16th of October.

Mr. Seeley. I did see the notice. I think that I saw that notice on the 22d, on October 22, 1963.

Mr. Coleman. Those are the two subjects that we are going to question you about.

Mr. Seeley. Yes, sir.

Mr. Coleman. Would you state your address for the record?

Mr. Seeley. My address is 6944 Nashville Road, Lanham, Md.

Mr. Coleman. Are you familiar with the congressional resolution in re this Commission?

Mr. Seeley. I am familiar with the newspaper accounts.

Mr. Coleman. You are familiar with the resolution?

Mr. Seeley. I am familiar with it to the extent that I have read in the newspapers that there is a Commission set up to investigate the assassination.

Mr. Coleman. Would you state whether you are presently employed by the Federal Government?

Mr. Seeley. Yes, sir; I am. I am employed with the Department of State.

Mr. Coleman. What is your position with the State Department?

Mr. Seeley. I am Assistant Chief of the Legal Division of the Passport Office of the Department of State.

Mr. Coleman. Who is your immediate superior?

Mr. Seeley. Robert D. Johnson, chief counsel.

Mr. Coleman. How long have you had that position?

Mr. Seeley. I have been in that position since approximately February 1962.

Mr. Coleman. Prior to February 1962, what was your position?

Mr. Seeley. I was Chief of the Security Branch of the Legal Division of the Passport Office.

Mr. Coleman. How long did you have that job?

Mr. Seeley. I had held that job since approximately 1957.

Mr. Coleman. As assistant to Mr. Johnson——

Mr. Seeley. Yes.

Mr. Coleman. What are your duties?

Mr. Seeley. My duties are mainly supervisory and to review material that has been prepared in the Passport Office Legal Division, and on some occasions to clear information or material that has been prepared in other divisions of the Passport Office.

Mr. Coleman. I take it you are a lawyer?

Mr. Seeley. Yes, sir; I am.

Mr. Coleman. Are you a member of the Bar?

Mr. Seeley. Yes, sir; I am.

Mr. Coleman. Of what State or States?

Mr. Seeley. I am a member of the Bar of the District of Columbia.

Mr. Coleman. How long have you been with the Department of State?

Mr. Seeley. I have been with the Department of State since 1954.

Mr. Coleman. Could you tell me the first time you heard, read or saw the name Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. Seeley. Well, Mr. Coleman, I don't have an independent recollection of that. I feel that probably the name first appears in the file on March 28, 1961.

195 Mr. Coleman. So, therefore, by consulting the file, to refresh your recollection, you think that the first time you heard or saw the name Lee Harvey Oswald was in March 1961?

Mr. Seeley. It is possible, it may have been that I had heard of it before, though, because he did have some publicity, and I usually follow those items, but I don't have any recollection of it.

Mr. Coleman. What happened in March 1961, that occasioned your knowing or hearing the name Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. Seeley. May I look at the file?

Mr. Coleman. Certainly.

I take it, sir, you are looking at the file which is the file of the passport—the original passport file of the State Department.

Mr. Seeley. Yes, sir.

Mr. Coleman. That is the file that has been given State Department file No. X, is that correct?

Mr. Seeley. Yes, sir.

The first time my name appears in the file is on a form DS-10, which is a reference slip, and it is addressed to Mr. Cacciatore in PT-F, and to Mr. Seeley, in PT-LS.

It requests to know insofar as I am concerned, should instruction be classified confidential.

Mr. Coleman. Sir, I will mark for the purposes of this deposition a document as S-1, meaning Seeley Exhibit No. 1, which is the State Department document which already has been marked by the State Department as X-45.

Mr. Seeley. Yes, sir.

(The document referred to was marked Seeley Exhibit No. 1 for identification.)

Mr. Coleman. Who is the reference slip dated March 28, 1961, from?

Mr. Seeley. Mr. Kupiec.

Mr. Coleman. To two persons, and you are one of the two persons, Mr. Seeley, is that correct?

Mr. Seeley. Yes, sir.

Mr. Coleman. I show you the document which has been marked as S-1 and ask you is that a copy of the document you referred to?

Mr. Seeley. Yes, sir.

Mr. Coleman. I take it that you got this because someone asked whether the instructions should be classified as confidential.

Mr. Seeley. Yes, sir. I don't have an independent recollection of this, but I assume that it is referring to this instruction which is State Department's document X-47, which had been classified as Official Only.

Mr. Coleman. Sir, I show you a document which has already been marked as Commission Exhibit No. 969, and ask you whether these were the instructions that were attached to S-1.

Mr. Seeley. So far as I am able to determine, I don't have an independent recollection, but looking at the formation of the file and the fact that this was not sent, and I know that there was another one that was sent, I believe it is the same document.

Mr. Coleman. And you were asked as to whether it should be classified as confidential?

Mr. Seeley. Yes, sir.

Mr. Coleman. What, if anything, did you do?

Mr. Seeley. I don't know. I have no recollection of what action I took on that particular aspect of it.

Mr. Coleman. You don't recall ever talking to Miss Waterman or anyone else in the Department as to what form the proposed instruction should take?

Mr. Seeley. No. I don't know whether I even know Miss Waterman. I know Mr. Kupiec, and I probably know Miss Waterman, but I don't have recollection of what she looks like.

Mr. Coleman. Did you ever discuss with Mr. Kupiec as to what form the instruction should take?

Mr. Seeley. No, sir. This instruction was drafted by Miss Waterman, and it was sent up for clearance to PTL, Mr. Johnson. I presume that when it went to either Mr. Cacciatore or Mr. Kupiec, I put my name on for the clearance196 procedure, in particular with regard to whether the thing should have been classified, have a higher classification than it did.

Mr. Coleman. You don't have any independent recollection of discussing Oswald?

Mr. Seeley. No, sir.

Mr. Coleman. Or whether the instruction should have been in a different form?

Mr. Seeley. No, sir; I do not.

Mr. Coleman. Could you tell me the next occasion where you had anything to do with Oswald, or the file?

Mr. Seeley. The next occasion, I think, relates to document X-43.

Mr. Coleman. I would like to mark as S-2 a memorandum from Robert D. Johnson to Mr. John T. White, under date of March 31, 1961, which in the State Department files has been marked as X-43.

(The document referred to was marked Seeley Exhibit No. 2 for identification.)

Mr. Coleman. Is that the document referred to?

Mr. Seeley. Yes, sir; it is.

Mr. Coleman. Now, sir, did you draft S-2?

Mr. Seeley. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. Coleman. Can you tell me the circumstances surrounding your drafting S-2?

Mr. Seeley. This particular item I do have a recollection of because there was a discussion between Mr. Johnson and myself concerning the propriety of sending the passport through the mail as had been proposed.

Mr. Coleman. What was that discussion?

Mr. Seeley. We were opposed to this action on several grounds.

Mr. Coleman. What were they?

Mr. Seeley. One was the fact that I think we already had information that Mrs. Oswald, the mother, had not been able to get in touch with her son.

Mr. Coleman. You are talking about Oswald's mother?

Mr. Seeley. The mother; yes. And we felt that the mails shouldn't be trusted for a U.S. passport which we know has a value outside the United States.

Mr. Coleman. Now, you also indicated in the memorandum that, "We should not be bound by the opinion he expressed in paragraph 2 of his letter set out in Moscow Despatch No. 985 of February 28, 1961."

Mr. Seeley. May I get that? It is No. 585. The paragraph that we are referring to reads: "I desire to return to the United States, that is if we could come to some agreement concerning the dropping of any legal proceedings against me. If so, then I would be free to ask the Russian authorities to allow me to leave. If I could show them my American passport, I am of the opinion they would give me an exit visa."

The item in the memorandum concerns itself mainly with his request for agreement concerning the dropping of any legal proceedings against him.

Mr. Coleman. You indicated that the Department ought not to give such agreement.

Mr. Seeley. Yes.

Mr. Coleman. Did you have any discussions with Mr. Johnson with respect to this March 31, 1961, memorandum?

Mr. Seeley. Yes, sir. I don't have a complete recollection of it, but I do know that I did discuss this particular item, particularly the mailing of the passport, with Mr. Johnson.

Mr. Coleman. And do you recall what Mr. Johnson said?

Mr. Seeley. I think Mr. Johnson was the one that instructed me to draft this so that we would not send this through the mail, so that the passport would not be sent through the mail.

Mr. Coleman. After the memorandum of March 31, 1961, and this discussion you had with Mr. Johnson, what did you do?

Mr. Seeley. I am sorry?

Mr. Coleman. Did you draft the instructions in the form that they actually went forward?

Mr. Seeley. No, sir.

Mr. Coleman. Did you have anything to do with that?

197 Mr. Seeley. No, sir; except I think there is a clearance, but I am not sure about that. I think we cleared it.

Mr. Coleman. And the instructions that actually went forward did indicate that they ought not to return the passport by mail?

Mr. Seeley. Yes, sir.

Mr. Coleman. What was the date of that instruction?

Mr. Seeley. The instruction that went forward?

Mr. Coleman. Yes.

Mr. Seeley. That was AE-173, of April 13, 1961. It is Department X-38.

Mr. Coleman. Will the record show that that document has already been marked as Commission Exhibit No. 971 before the Commission. You say that you read Commission Exhibit No. 971 and cleared it before it went forward?

Mr. Seeley. Yes, sir.

Mr. Coleman. Exhibit No. 971 which you referred to as X-38 shows on the left-hand side that there is a notation that a copy of the instructions was sent to the CIA.

Mr. Seeley. Was furnished to the CIA.

Mr. Coleman. Was that done at the same time the instructions went forward?

Mr. Seeley. No, sir.

Mr. Coleman. Did you have anything to do with sending it to the CIA?

Mr. Seeley. I don't have a recollection on this. I would imagine what happened is that there was a request by the CIA for a copy of this, and that I authorized them to be furnished a copy on October 5, 1961.

Mr. Coleman. I take it you actually read the instructions which went forward on April 13, 1961.

Mr. Seeley. Yes, sir. My initials are at the bottom.

Mr. Coleman. The fact that your initials are at the bottom indicates that you approved them?

Mr. Seeley. Yes, sir.

Mr. Coleman. What was the next occasion on which you had anything to do with the Oswald file or heard the name Oswald?

Mr. Seeley. I will have to check the file. The next occasion where the record shows that I had something to do with the Oswald file concerns Item X-31. It is a Department of State instruction, W-7, dated July 11, 1961, drafted by Mrs. Waterman, and I cleared this particular instruction.

Mr. Coleman. Can we note for the record that that instruction has already been marked as Commission Exhibit No. 975?

Mr. Seeley. Yes, sir.

Mr. Coleman. You cleared those instructions prior to the time you received word from Mr. Snyder in the Embassy in Moscow that Oswald had appeared at the Embassy on July 8, 10, or 11?

Mr. Seeley. Of 1961?

Mr. Coleman. 1961.

Mr. Seeley. Yes, sir; that is true. I wasn't sure of the time element in there, but that is true. This went out the same day, apparently, that the instruction was drafted and was sent in, or the despatch was drafted and sent in.

Mr. Coleman. So, therefore, you took that action or you approved that action prior to the time that you knew that Oswald had appeared at the Embassy in Moscow?

Mr. Seeley. Yes, sir.

Mr. Coleman. Is it a fair reading of the July 11, 1961, instructions which you approved, that you indicated that Oswald could be given back his passport?

Mr. Seeley. No, sir; I don't think so. I call your attention to paragraph 5 of the despatch; "It is noted that the Embassy intends to seek the Department's prior advice before granting Mr. Oswald documentation as a United States citizen upon any application he may submit."

Mr. Coleman. So, therefore, as of this time it was still open as far as the Department was concerned in Washington whether Oswald had renounced his citizenship and was entitled to a passport?

Mr. Seeley. Yes, sir. I don't think that the adjudicative proceeding had been completed.

Mr. Coleman. When was the adjudicative process completed so far as you198 were concerned, that the Passport Office in Washington determined that in its opinion, that Mr. Oswald was still a citizen?

Mr. Seeley. I would say that the operations memorandum of August 18, 1961, from the Department of State to the American Embassy in Moscow which refers to the Embassy Despatch No. 29, the passport renewal application and the questionnaire.

Mr. Coleman. You would say that as of that date the Passport Office determined that Oswald was still a citizen?

Mr. Seeley. I would say at that date that we concurred in the conclusion of the Embassy that he had not expatriated—that we had no information or evidence that he had expatriated himself.

Mr. Coleman. Did you have anything to do with this decision?

Mr. Seeley. Not the citizenship decision; no, sir. I had nothing to do with that.

Mr. Coleman. You weren't consulted prior to the time the decision was made?

Mr. Seeley. No, sir.

Mr. Coleman. Did you approve the operations memorandum of August 18?

Mr. Seeley. Yes, sir.

Mr. Coleman. 1961; before it was sent forward?

Mr. Seeley. Yes, sir; I did. My initials are at the bottom there.

Mr. Coleman. If you had disapproved it, at least there would have been further discussion?

Mr. Seeley. Yes, sir; there would have been.

Mr. Coleman. So, to that extent, you did have something to do with the decision?

Mr. Seeley. Well, to that extent, there was no consultation. This was sent up for clearance, and insofar as the citizenship angle was concerned, I agreed with what they had done.

Mr. Coleman. Did you call for and look at the file prior to the time you initialed the operations memorandum of August 18, 1961?

Mr. Seeley. I would presume that I had the whole file. Mr. Ehrlich has suggested that I mention that I was not in the citizenship area at the time that I put my concurrence on this operations memorandum, and I was looking at it only from the aspect of my own area.

Mr. Coleman. What was your area?

Mr. Seeley. I was in the Security Branch. I was Chief of the Security Branch of the Legal Division.

Mr. Coleman. What did you have to do with the decision?

Mr. Seeley. In this particular case if you had objected, I am sure that there would have been further discussion on this particular case.

Mr. Coleman. Could we mark as Seeley Exhibit No. 3—instead of "S" I think we had better call these Seeley exhibits, the operations memorandum dated August 18, 1961, from the Department of State to the American Embassy.

Mr. Seeley. Fine, sir.

(The document referred to was marked Seeley Exhibit No. 3 for identification.)

Mr. Coleman. That is the document that you referred to as X-27, is that correct?

Mr. Seeley. X-27, that is correct.

Mr. Coleman. If you had felt that there was evidence in the file that Oswald had renounced his citizenship, I take it you would not have approved this memorandum, is that correct?

Mr. Seeley. No, sir; I would not have.

Mr. Coleman. You would not have approved it?

Mr. Seeley. No, sir; I would not have approved it.

Mr. Coleman. There would have been further discussions?

Mr. Seeley. Yes, sir.

Mr. Coleman. So, therefore, as far as you were concerned in reviewing the file and what you knew and looking over it, what Miss Waterman had said and what Mr. Snyder had said, that your decision was that you saw no reason why you would disagree with the decision?

Mr. Seeley. I was in complete agreement with the decision.

Mr. Coleman. After you concurred in the operations memorandum of August199 18, 1961, what was the next occasion on which you had anything to do with the Oswald file?

Mr. Seeley. So far as I can determine——

Mr. Coleman. The Commission Exhibit No. 979 is the same as I have marked as Seeley Exhibit No. 3.

Mr. Seeley. So far as I can determine by examination of the file, the next contact I had with the file concerns a slip that is part of State X-19, consisting of a DS-10 reference slip dated 12-29-61.

Mr. Coleman. That is attached to a letter from L. A. Mack, to the Director of the Passport Office of the State Department, is that correct?

Mr. Seeley. Mr. Coleman, on that particular item, I don't think that that was what it was attached to. I think it was probably attached to X-20.

Mr. Coleman. What is that?

Mr. Seeley. That is a memorandum from Miss Knight to Mr. Boswell.

Mr. Coleman. Will you read that memorandum into the record? It is short.

Mr. Seeley. Yes; the subject is: "Lee Harvey Oswald." It is classified "Confidential."

It states: "We refer to the Office Memorandum of July 27, 1961, from SY, which stated that 'renounced United States citizenship.' Mr. Oswald attempted to renounce United States citizenship but did not in fact renounce United States citizenship. Our determination on the basis of the information and evidence presently of record is that Mr. Oswald did not expatriate himself, and remains a citizen of the United States."

Mr. Coleman. You say that your reference slip of 12-29-61 was attached to that memorandum?

Mr. Seeley. I would presume it was.

Mr. Coleman. Would you look at the letter, the Mack letter from the Immigration and Naturalization Service to the Director of Passports?

Mr. Seeley. I am looking at it.

Mr. Coleman. Did you see that letter or did you have anything to do with that letter?

Mr. Seeley. So far as I know, I had nothing to do with that letter. I have seen the letter.

Mr. Coleman. By the time you did, the reference slip of 12-29-61—which I would like the reporter to indicate was marked Seeley Exhibit No. 4—what was your job in the State Department?

(The document referred to was marked Seeley Exhibit No. 4 for identification.)

Mr. Seeley. At the time that I—I was still Chief of the Security Branch of the Legal Division.

Mr. Coleman. What does PT-L mean?

Mr. Seeley. PT-L, Passport-Legal, PT-LS, Passport-Legal Security.

To give you an idea about it, the Legal Division is divided into two branches, and we have a short designation for it, PT-LS and PT-LAD.

Mr. Coleman. I see.

Mr. Seeley. I will tell you further if you wish, about this particular item. This was——

Mr. Coleman. What is this particular item? You are now talking about the letter?

Mr. Seeley. The letter; yes.

Mr. Coleman. It is the Mack letter?

Mr. Seeley. State Department File X-19. It was addressed to our Liaison Branch, and I see at the bottom it was reviewed by Mr. Reichman, of the Immigration and Naturalization Service. And I would presume that I did not, that this was not in the file at the time that this DS-10, that it was probably in Liaison, and the file was called for. It was reviewed. The file was then reviewed by Mr. Reichman who answered for his own service.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. Coleman. Now, sir; what was the next occasion on which you had anything to do with the Oswald file?

Mr. Seeley. The next occasion concerns Item X-11.

Mr. Coleman. We have marked as Seeley Deposition Exhibit No. 5 a memorandum from Robert Owen, to Michael Cieplinski, dated March 23, 1962.

200 (The document referred to was marked Seeley Exhibit No. 5 for identification.)

Mr. Coleman. I ask you, sir; whether that is the document you refer to.

Mr. Seeley. Yes, sir.

Mr. Coleman. Did you draft Seeley Exhibit No. 5?

Mr. Seeley. No, sir.

Mr. Coleman. You reviewed it?

Mr. Seeley. Yes, sir; on March 28, 1962.

Mr. Coleman. Did you have anything to do with Seeley Exhibit No. 5 other than the fact that you just read it?

Mr. Seeley. No, sir.

Mr. Coleman. Why would you be reading it?

Mr. Seeley. The item was referred to, a copy of this item was referred to Miss Knight. It was, in turn, referred to the Legal Division, and then in turn referred to the Security Branch of the Legal Division.

Mr. Coleman. Did you take any action with respect to it?

Mr. Seeley. No, sir; I did not, other than to note that I had read it and initialed it.

Mr. Coleman. Did the fact that he had originally stated that he had information as a radar operator in the Marine Corps which he would make available to the Soviet Union—did that in any way raise in your mind a security problem?

Mr. Seeley. Yes, sir; I thought that this certainly raised a doubt. He had originally, I think, way back had made some similar type statement. Here he made the statement, "Oswald stated he had never in fact been subjected to any questioning or briefing by the Soviet authorities concerning his life or experiences prior to entering the Soviet Union, and never provided such information to any Soviet organ." I thought that certainly there were two statements by him.

Mr. Coleman. I note on the copy you have there is a red check right beside the line which I read. Did you place that red check on there?

Mr. Seeley. I don't think so, sir. It looks like—I think I had a regular pencil, and I think I would have done it with a pencil.

Mr. Coleman. Merely because a person who had attempted to defect now says when he is trying to get back into the country, "I really didn't tell the Soviets anything," that wouldn't completely satisfy you that maybe he hadn't, would it?

Mr. Seeley. No, sir; but I had no information that he had in fact done so. He had just made a statement that he would. I think that was his original statement.

Mr. Coleman. But you didn't do anything other than read Seeley Exhibit No. 5?

Mr. Seeley. That is right, sir.

Mr. Coleman. When was the next occasion you had anything to do with the file?

Mr. Seeley. The next concerns Item X-7, which is a memorandum from Robert D. Johnson to William O. Boswell, dated May 4, 1962.

Mr. Coleman. We have marked that as Seeley Exhibit No. 6, and identified as a memorandum from Robert D. Johnson to William O. Boswell, dated May 4, 1962.

(The document referred to was marked Seeley Exhibit No. 6 for identification.)

Mr. Coleman. Did you draft this memorandum?

Mr. Seeley. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. Coleman. What did you have to do with it? You just read it?

Mr. Seeley. No, sir; I signed it in Mr. Johnson's stead, to send it on its way to Mr. Boswell.

Mr. Coleman. In effect, you said that based upon the evidence and information of record, that Oswald had not expatriated himself under the pertinent laws of the United States?

Mr. Seeley. Yes, sir.

Mr. Coleman. Did you review the file before you wrote that memorandum?

Mr. Seeley. I didn't write the memorandum. Before I signed it?

Mr. Coleman. Yes.

Mr. Seeley. I don't have any recollection of it. I presume the file was with201 the memorandum. That is in the normal course of business, that would be the way it was handled.

Mr. Coleman. But you don't have any independent recollection of whether you checked through the file to see whether——

Mr. Seeley. No, sir; I do not.

Mr. Coleman. Could you tell me who wrote the memorandum from looking at the initials?

Mr. Seeley. I think it was a Mrs. Abboud.

Mr. Coleman. Did you discuss it with her before?

Mr. Seeley. No, sir; I did not. This came from the citizenship area. She is in the citizenship area.

Mr. Coleman. If they prepare a memorandum for your signature, just merely because somebody in the citizenship area drafts it doesn't mean that you sign it, does it?

Mr. Seeley. No, sir; it does not. I would imagine, although I don't have any recollection, that I did look into the file.

Mr. Coleman. Is it fair to say that you would not just initial it merely because somebody else had drafted it?

Mr. Seeley. Yes, sir.

Mr. Coleman. And normally you would look through the file?

Mr. Seeley. Yes, sir; in the normal course of business I would look at the file—see what my own conclusion was.

Mr. Coleman. After you drafted or after you initialed the memorandum which has been marked as Seeley Exhibit No. 6, what was the next occasion you had to look at the Oswald file?

Mr. Seeley. The next occasion concerned the two items that are identified as X-5.

Mr. Coleman. Could we mark as Seeley Exhibit No. 7 a photostatic copy of an article which appeared in the Washington Post on Saturday, June 9, 1962, and also attached is a reference slip.

(The document referred to was marked Seeley Exhibit No. 7 for identification.)

Mr. Coleman. Are they the two items that you refer to?

Mr. Seeley. Yes, sir; they are.

Mr. Coleman. Now, I take it you just read this and put it in the file.

Mr. Seeley. I would presume that I cut this article out. I see that it is my printing on the side there where it says "Oswald, Lee Harvey" on the right-hand side.

Mr. Coleman. That is your printing?

Mr. Seeley. Yes, sir; and I would presume that I saw the article in the newspaper, cut it out and brought it to be filed with this case.

Mr. Coleman. Sir, I show you a sheet which has the word "Refusal" Commission Exhibit No. 962, and ask you whether that hand printing that appears there is your printing, too?

Mr. Seeley. No, sir; that is not. I have looked at that. It doesn't look like mine.

Mr. Coleman. Now, after you put this newspaper article in the file, did you have anything else to do with the file?

Mr. Seeley. Yes; I sent this item, this is CS, these items to our Special Services, Miss Waters.

Mr. Coleman. Do you know what she did?

Mr. Seeley. No; I don't. I have no recollection. I see that it was as requested. It may have been a telephone request.

Mr. Coleman. Did you have anything else to do with the file?

Mr. Seeley. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. Coleman. What was that?

Mr. Seeley. That was on October 22, 1963.

Mr. Coleman. What occasioned your looking at the file on October 22, 1963?

Mr. Seeley. I am looking right now at State Department Exhibit X-3.

Mr. Coleman. And what occasioned your looking at the file on October 22, 1963?

202 Mr. Seeley. It was the transmittal from INR of the Department transmitting a secret—well, I know what it is, a CIA document, telegram, to the Passport Office.

Mr. Coleman. Can you recall what the CIA telegram said?

Mr. Seeley. The telegram said in effect that Lee Oswald had appeared or had contacted, I believe was the word, the Soviet Embassy in Mexico City in October 1963.

Mr. Coleman. Now, did the telegram also indicate that Oswald was the person who in 1959 had attempted to defect?

Mr. Seeley. Yes, sir.

Mr. Coleman. Now, when you got the telegram on your desk, did you also get the file with it?

Mr. Seeley. Yes, sir; the passport file.

Mr. Coleman. That came to you at the same time, or did you get the telegram and then send for the file?

Mr. Seeley. I had the whole thing. I am morally certain on this, that I had the whole file. I can tell by the reconstruction on this. Mr. Ritchie and myself have discussed this. We are both sure how this went about.

Do you want me to give this reconstruction?

Mr. Coleman. You can, if you wish to; yes.

Mr. Seeley. I notice that there was a little note. "Mr. Anderson pull previous." "Previous" means to pull the file, whatever file there is. This was on October 17. The file was pulled according to our records in our office on October 17 or 18, I forget the exact date. It was within a day or so thereafter this. And I presume that this was first reviewed by Mr. Ritchie and then reviewed by myself.

Mr. Coleman. When you pulled the file which is the State Department file X——

Mr. Seeley. Yes, sir.

Mr. Coleman. Did you send for the security file?

Mr. Seeley. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. Coleman. Why wouldn't you send for the security file if you get a telegram from a security agency saying that the gentleman who was down at the Russian Embassy in Mexico City is the same guy who in 1959 attempted to defect?

Mr. Seeley. I looked at this report strictly from a passport office point of view. The significance which, of course, might have great intelligence significance, had little or no significance insofar as any action that we would take in the Passport Office is concerned.

Mr. Coleman. Why would that be, sir?

Mr. Seeley. Well, we have to have some basis under our regulations to take any action.

Mr. Coleman. I mean why, if you get information which you can immediately realize may have intelligence significance, why wouldn't you look at it from a point of view of intelligence?

Mr. Seeley. Well, I am working for the Passport Office. Certainly, if I saw something that I could do something about, I would take whatever action I thought was necessary.

Mr. Coleman. Why didn't you, for example, write a letter to the FBI saying that this fellow is down in Mexico City, are you interested, or do you want to see the file?

Mr. Seeley. Well, I would say the probability is that a copy of this was apparently furnished to the Federal Bureau of Investigation.

Mr. Coleman. And you noted that, I take it, at the time of reviewing the file?

Mr. Seeley. I have no independent recollection that I did.

Mr. Coleman. But the fair assumption is that you did?

Mr. Seeley. I would assume that.

Mr. Coleman. I take it that is also the reason why you didn't notify the CIA, because the telegram had come from the CIA?

203 Mr. Seeley. Yes; from the CIA.

Mr. Coleman. When you looked at the file, did you know or were you aware after looking at the file that Oswald in June 1963 had been issued a passport?

Mr. Seeley. I presume I was. The passport is the next item there, and I am sure that I looked at it and saw that he did have a passport.

Mr. Coleman. Did you after you looked at it say to yourself "can we revoke this passport?"

Mr. Seeley. I am sure that is why I looked at it. I am sure of that, Mr. Coleman, that I looked at it with that view in mind, if there was any action to be taken of that sort.

Mr. Coleman. Did you know that he had defected or attempted to defect in 1959?

Mr. Seeley. Yes, sir.

Mr. Coleman. Did you know that when he attempted to defect that he had indicated that he was going to pass some radar information to the Russians if they gave him citizenship?

Mr. Seeley. Yes, sir.

Mr. Coleman. Did you know that the Soviet desk had indicated in 1961 or 1962 that it would be to the interests of the United States to get him out of Russia and back to the United States?

Mr. Seeley. Yes, sir.

Mr. Coleman. Did you note in his passport application for his 1963 passport that he indicated that one of the countries that he intended to travel to was Russia?

Mr. Seeley. I don't have an independent recollection of that. I presume I did note that.

Mr. Coleman. And you are saying with all that information that you would look at that file, I take it you did it on October 22?

Mr. Seeley. Yes, sir.

Mr. Coleman. Read it and just put it back and did nothing about it?

Mr. Seeley. I did nothing about it other than to note the fact that I had read the telegram.

Mr. Coleman. All I am saying, just asking for your best recollection——

Mr. Seeley. Yes, sir.

Mr. Coleman. I realize you did nothing, but wouldn't that cause you to at least do something, to talk to somebody and say, "Can we do something about this?"

Mr. Seeley. Mr. Ritchie and I undoubtedly talked about this, or at least we both saw it. I was well aware of the file. But there was no particular passport significance to the fact that a man shows up down at the Soviet Embassy in Mexico City. He was married to a Soviet citizen. I think there is an indication somewhere she was supposed to report or something. I don't know what the score was on that.

Mr. Coleman. But the problem is, sir, that——

Mr. Seeley. But even if she was to report, I don't get the significance of an individual appearing at a Soviet Embassy, either here or anywhere else in the world, by itself meaning anything insofar as passports is concerned.

Mr. Coleman. Sir, the problem is, if there is a problem, that on June 24, 1963, when Mr. Oswald applied for his passport, the State Department issued it routinely because under the lookout system there was nothing on Oswald, so, therefore, it went out the next day.

Mr. Seeley. Yes, sir.

Mr. Coleman. And we think, from what we know, that as of June 24 or 25 no one looked at the file, so, therefore, there is no reason why the passport wouldn't go out.

Mr. Seeley. I would presume from looking at this file, that that is absolutely correct.

Mr. Coleman. But our problem is that if on June 24 or June 25 someone had looked at the file, would you have issued the passport based upon what was204 in the file as of June 24 or 25, or would you have at least talked to people to see whether some action should be taken?

Mr. Seeley. If I had seen this application on June 24 or 25, before it had been issued, I think I probably would have discussed it. But that would have been the end of it. We have no basis upon which to deny him or hold up his passport. There would have been a discussion.

Mr. Coleman. Are you saying, then, it is your opinion that after reviewing the file that if the request for a passport had come in and you had looked at the file before the passport was issued, there was no regulation or legal basis on which you could refuse him a passport?

Mr. Seeley. That is correct. That is absolutely correct.

Mr. Coleman. And, therefore, I take it then, that the only additional information you got in the October CIA telegram was that he was in Mexico City, and he had visited the Russian Embassy in Mexico City.

Mr. Seeley. That is correct.

Mr. Coleman. And it is your position that he had the right to go back to Russia if he wanted to go anyway; is that correct?

Mr. Seeley. Yes, sir.

Mr. Coleman. And so, therefore, there is nothing that you could have done about it?

Mr. Seeley. No, sir.

Mr. Coleman. Did you make any memorandum or any memoranda when you looked at the file in October 1963?

Mr. Seeley. Aside from this notation which is in my handwriting, which says "Noted CHS 10-22-63" that is the extent of the documentation that I gave to them.

Mr. Coleman. But you do say you had some discussions with the other gentlemen that looked at the file?

Mr. Seeley. I don't have a recollection. I don't know whether Mr. Ritchie does. I don't believe he does either, but the fact that we both had it, he may have passed it to me. You have to get this in context. We have hundreds of these cases. This is one case out of hundreds.

I am surprised that I have got any recollection, but I do have some, as I mentioned before in my testimony here, that I did have some recollection of it.

Mr. Coleman. No one called you and said, "Well, look, let him have the passport, don't do anything about it," I take it?

Mr. Seeley. Oh, no, sir. At the time the passport was issued, it was issued.

Mr. Coleman. But I mean when you got the telegram, nobody called you and said, "Look, just skip it. Let him have the passport."

Mr. Seeley. No, sir.

Mr. Coleman. "Don't do anything about it"?

Mr. Seeley. No, sir.

Mr. Coleman. All the action you took, you took independently?

Mr. Seeley. Yes, sir; as my own independent action.

Mr. Coleman. I take it if faced with the situation again, knowing only what you knew on October 22, 1963, you would take the same action today?

Mr. Seeley. Yes, sir; that is correct. There is one additional item, and that is under our new regulations we do put a card in on a defector or a person—I think I can give you the definition here.

"Defectors, expatriates and repatriates whose activities or background demand further inquiry prior to issuance of passport facilities."

I presume that under this criteria, in fact I know under this criteria that Oswald would have a card placed against him today.

Mr. Coleman. Is it your opinion as assistant legal counsel to the Passport Office that you still in the final analysis couldn't deny him the passport?

Mr. Seeley. That is definite.

Mr. Coleman. And you would have to give it to him?

Mr. Seeley. Yes, sir.

Mr. Coleman. Has there been any other case of a defector where you have actually issued him another passport?

205 Mr. Seeley. We have issued passports to defectors, at least one that I know of, and I think we have furnished a report on that.

Mr. Coleman. You say there is a case of another defector?

Mr. Seeley. Yes, sir; in connection with the answer to this question, we did a research job on a list of defectors which had been furnished to the Department of State by the Department of Defense, and our search disclosed that only one of these individuals, a Paul David Wilson, had applied for passport facilities since his return to the United States, and he was issued a passport.

Mr. Coleman. To go where, sir?

Mr. Seeley. To visit Mexico, Colombia, South America, and was uncertain of others.

Mr. Coleman. Was that done routinely or was that done after looking at his file?

Mr. Seeley. My recollection of this, that this was a routine issuance of a passport to a person on whom we had no information.

Mr. Coleman. In other words, this was another case where because you didn't have a lookout card——

Mr. Seeley. Yes.

Mr. Coleman. Nobody ever looked at the file?

Mr. Seeley. Yes, sir; well, there was no file. We have no file on this man other than his name. The Passport Office has no file on this man, Paul David Wilson.

Mr. Coleman. But there has been no case where you had a file, you knew he had defected, and then applied for another passport and before you issued the second passport you had to make a decision as to whether you could refuse to issue him a passport?

Mr. Seeley. None to my knowledge.

Mr. Coleman. I have no further questions, unless you have something else you would want to say.

Mr. Seeley. I have nothing further, Mr. Coleman. I will be glad to help all I can. That is all I can say.

Mr. Coleman. Thank you for coming over.


AFFIDAVIT OF LOUIS FELDSOTT

The following affidavit was executed by Louis Feldsott on July 23, 1964.

AFFIDAVIT

PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION
ON THE ASSASSINATION OF
PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY

State of New York,
County of Rockland, ss:

I, Louis Feldsott, being duly sworn say:

1. I am the President of Crescent Firearms, Inc., 2 West 37th Street, New York 18, New York.

2. On November 22, 1963, the F.B.I. contacted me and asked if Crescent Firearms, Inc., had any records concerning the sale of an Italian made 6.5 m/m rifle with the serial number C 2766.

3. I was able to find a record of the sale of this rifle which indicated that the weapon had been sold to Kleins' Sporting Goods, Inc., Chicago, Illinois on June 18, 1962. I conveyed this information to the F.B.I. during the evening of November 22, 1963.

4. Further records involving the purchase, sale, and transportation of the weapon have been turned over to the F.B.I.

Signed the 23d day of July 1964.

(S)Louis Feldsott,
Louis Feldsott.

206

AFFIDAVIT OF J. PHILIP LUX

The following affidavit was executed by J. Philip Lux on July 22, 1964.

AFFIDAVIT

PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION
ON THE ASSASSINATION OF
PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY

State of Texas,
County of Dallas, ss:

I, J. Philip Lux, being duly sworn say:

1. I am now Store Manager at the H. L. Green Company, 1623 Main Street, Dallas, Texas. I was not employed by the H. L. Green Company in 1963.

2. H. L. Green Company records show that in 1963, the Company had in stock and sold Italian 6.5 mm rifles that were surpluses from World War II.

3. The records also reflect the fact that the H. L. Green Company received its supply of Italian 6.5 mm rifles from the Crescent Firearms Company, New York City.

4. A review of the records has failed to reflect any record of a 6.5 mm rifle with Serial No. C2766.

5. As far as I know, the H. L. Green Company is the only company in Dallas handling any quantity of these Italian 6.5 mm rifles.

Signed the 22d day of July 1964.

(S)J. Philip Lux,
J. Philip Lux.

AFFIDAVIT OF HOWARD LESLIE BRENNAN

The following affidavit was executed by Howard Leslie Brennan on May 7, 1964.

AFFIDAVIT

PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION
ON THE ASSASSINATION OF
PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY

State of Texas,
County of Dallas, ss:

I, Howard Leslie Brennan, being first duly sworn, do upon oath depose and state:

On or about March 24, 1964, I testified in Washington, D.C., before the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy. In that connection I testified as to the reasons why I declined on November 22, 1963, to give positive identification of Lee Harvey Oswald as the man I saw firing a rifle from the southeast corner of the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository Building on November 22, 1963.

Included in these reasons at pages 3629 and 3630 of Volume 28 of the transcript of the Commission proceedings are the following reasons:

"And then I felt that my family could be in danger, and I, myself, might be in danger. And since they already had the man for murder, that he wasn't going to be set free to escape and get out of the country immediately, and I could very easily sooner than the FBI or the Secret Service wanted me, my testimony in, I could very easily get in touch with them, if they didn't get in touch with me, and to see that the man didn't get loose."

"... "Because I had already more or less give a detailed description of the man, and I talked to the Secret Service and gave them my statement, and they had convinced me that it would be strictly confidential and all that. But still I felt like if I was the only eye witness, that anything could happen to me or my family."

I have also been advised that on page 3595 of Volume 28 of the transcript of the Commission proceedings, the following appears:

"Mr. Belin. What do you mean by security reasons for your family, and yourself?

"Mr. Brennan. I believe at that time, and I still believe it was a Communist activity, and I felt like there had been more than one eye witness, and if it got207 to be a known fact that I was an eye witness, my family or I, either one, might not be safe."

I hereby state that this is a court reporter's error and that in truth and in fact my answer to the question was:

"Mr. Brennan: I believe at that time, and I still believe it was a Communist activity, and I felt like there hadn't been more than one eye witness, and if it got to be a known fact that I was an eye witness, my family or I, either one, might not be safe."

Signed the 7th day of May 1964.

(S)Howard Leslie Brennan.
Howard Leslie Brennan.

AFFIDAVIT OF ALBERT C. YEARGAN, JR.

The following affidavit was executed by Albert C. Yeargan, Jr., on July 21, 1964.

AFFIDAVIT

PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION
ON THE ASSASSINATION OF
PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY

State of Texas,
County of Dallas, ss:

I, Albert C. Yeargan, Jr., 1922 Mayflower Drive, Dallas, Texas, being duly sworn say:

1. I was the Sporting Goods Department Manager at the H. L. Green Company, 1623 Main Street, Dallas, Texas, from the Summer of 1963 until March 13, 1964. I am now employed by Smitty's Sporting Goods, 111 West Jefferson Avenue, Dallas, Texas.

2. When I worked for the H. L. Green Company, it had in stock and was offering for sale a large number of Italian 6.5 mm rifles that were surpluses from World War II.

3. On November 22, 1963, FBI Agents, Secret Service Agents, and I examined all sales records and receipt records concerning Italian 6.5 mm rifles.

4. The records showed that the H. L. Green Company obtained its supply of these Italian 6.5 mm rifles from the Crescent Firearms Company in New York City.

5. A review of all of the records failed to reflect any record of sale of a 6.5 mm rifle with the Serial Number C2766.

6. As far as I know, the H. L. Green Company was at that time the only Company in Dallas that handled any quantity of these Italian 6.5 mm rifles.

Signed the 21st day of July 1964.

(S)Albert C. Yeargan, Jr.,
Albert C. Yeargan, Jr.

AFFIDAVIT OF LOUIS WEINSTOCK

The following affidavit was executed by Louis Weinstock on May 20, 1964.

AFFIDAVIT

PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION
ON THE ASSASSINATION OF
PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY

State of New York,
County of New York, ss:

Louis Weinstock, being duly sworn, says:

1. On or about December 19, 1962, I was General Manager of "The Worker," the address of which is 23 West 26 Street. New York 11, New York. On or about December 19, 1962, I wrote the attached letter on the letterhead of "The Worker" addressed to Lee Harvey Oswald, Post Office Box 2915, Dallas, Texas, and sent or caused such letter to be sent to Mr. Oswald. I have initialed that letter immediately below the initials "WJL" appearing thereon for the purpose of identifying it as Weinstock Exhibit No. 1.

208 2. The letter refers to certain "blow ups" which were apparently sent to "The Worker" by Mr. Oswald. I described those "blow ups" in my letter as "poster like blow ups" and indicated that they would be "most useful at newsstands and other public places to call the attention of newspaper readers that 'The Worker' is available."

3. While my recollection is not entirely clear concerning the nature of the "blow ups" which Oswald had apparently sent to "The Worker," it appears from the description of such "blow ups" in my letter that they must have consisted of the item which has been marked as Exhibit 5A in the deposition of Mr. Arnold S. Johnson, which Exhibit, as indicated in Mr. Johnson's testimony, was obtained from the files of "The Worker" and turned over to the Federal Bureau of Investigation by Mr. Johnson's counsel.

4. Aside from the attached letter of December 19, 1962. I know of no other correspondence which I may have written to Lee Harvey Oswald and I do not recall receiving anything from him other than the material described in this affidavit.

Signed the 20th day of May 1964.

(S)Louis Weinstock,
Louis Weinstock.

AFFIDAVIT OF VINCENT T. LEE

The following affidavit was executed by Vincent T. Lee on May 20, 1964.

AFFIDAVIT

PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION
ON THE ASSASSINATION OF
PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY

State of New York,
County of New York, ss:

Vincent T. Lee, being duly sworn says:

1. My name is Vincent T. Lee. I reside at 37 St. Mark's Place, New York, New York. I was formerly the National Director for the Fair Play for Cuba Committee. I make this affidavit to supplement the testimony which I gave to the above Commission on April 17, 1964.

2. I have examined the attached membership card of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee and state that it is an authentic membership card of that organization and that it bears my signature.B

3. I sent that card or caused it to be sent to Lee Harvey Oswald on or about May 29, 1963.

4. I have initialed the attached card under the initials WJL which appear on the card for the purposes of identification of that card in the record of the proceedings of the above Commission.

Signed the 20th day of May 1964.

(S)Vincent T. Lee,
Vincent T. Lee.

BThe FPCC membership card referred to in the above affidavit is Commission Exhibit No. 828.


AFFIDAVIT OF FARRELL DOBBS

The following affidavit was executed by Farrell Dobbs on June 4, 1964.

AFFIDAVIT

PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION
ON THE ASSASSINATION OF
PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY

State of New York,
County of New York, ss:

I, Farrell Dobbs, being duly sworn, depose and say:

1. I have read the twenty-six page transcript of the examination of me in a proceeding of the Commission to Report upon the Assassination of President209 John F. Kennedy, held at New York, N.Y., on April 17, 1964, and find it accurate with the exception of the corrections noted and initialled by me on pages 1, 6, & 7.

2. I have read the original of a letter dated November 5, 1962, to Mr. Lee H. Oswald from Farrell Dobbs, and have initialled it so that it may be substituted as R. Watts Exhibit 11 for the typewritten copy shown me on April 17, 1964.C I have no doubt that it is a letter I wrote, and the signature is mine.

3. I have initialled the original of a letter dated December 9, 1962, to Mr. Lee H. Oswald, signed "Bob Chester," so that it may be substituted as R. Watts Exhibit 12 for the typewritten copy shown me on April 17, 1964.

4. As requested on pages 19–20, I have made a further search of our files for the letter and reproductions from Lee H. Oswald referred to in the Bob Chester letter but have found no record of them. Further, I have discussed this matter with Mr. Chester and he advises me that he has had a vague recollection that the reproductions were of headlines from the Militant but has no further recollection of any correspondence with Lee H. Oswald.

5. As requested on page 21, I have made a further search for a copy of R. Watts Exhibit 13 and for the letter and clipping referred to in it as from Lee H. Oswald but have been unable to find any such material in our files.

6. As requested in J. Lee Rankin's letter to Mr. Rowland Watts dated May 20, 1964, I have made inquiry of the Young Socialist Alliance and am advised that its files have been searched and that its representatives have found no record that Lee H. Oswald's name was ever referred to it, nor does it have any record of ever having had anything in its files from, to, or concerning Lee H. Oswald.

7. In pursuance of the information supplied in Mr. Rankin's letter to Mr. Watts dated May 20, 1964, I have made inquiry of The Militant and have had its files further searched. There is no photograph of Lee Harvey Oswald, with or without a rifle, in its files (other than a clipping from the daily press after he was taken into custody). I am confident no photograph of him was ever received prior to President Kennedy's assassination.

8. To the best of my knowledge and belief, I have submitted to you all of the material in the files of the Socialist Workers Party, The Militant, and Pioneer Publishers, concerning Lee Harvey Oswald, and I have no further material or information concerning him.

Signed the 4th day of June 1964.

(S)Farrell Dobbs,
Farrell Dobbs.

CSince all of the Rowland Watts Exhibits have been redesignated as Farrell Dobbs Exhibits, R. Watts Exhibits Nos. 11, 12, and 13 referred to in the above affidavit have been marked Farrell Dobbs Exhibits Nos. 11, 12, and 13, respectively.


AFFIDAVIT OF VIRGINIA GRAY

The following affidavit was executed by Virginia Gray on May 28, 1964.

AFFIDAVIT

PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION
ON THE ASSASSINATION OF
PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY

State of North Carolina,
County of Durham, ss:

Virginia Gray, being duly sworn says:

1. My name is Virginia Gray. I am the Assistant Curator of Manuscripts of the Duke University Library, Durham, North Carolina, (the Library) and the person most familiar with the records of the Socialist Party of America which are now in the possession of the Library.

2. The records of the Library reflect that it purchased the original official records of the Socialist Party of America covering the period from 1900 to 1938 from Leon Kramer, a New York dealer in Leftist literature. Since the time of that original purchase the Library has become the unofficial repository for files of the Socialist Party of America and periodically acquires the inactive records of that organization.

210 3. On or about January 2, 1959 the Library acquired certain records of the Socialist Party of America from Mr. Stephen Siteman, Executive Secretary of that Party, 112 East 19th Street, New York, New York.

4. A letter dated October 3, 1956 addressed "Dear Sirs" from Lee Oswald and an advertisement coupon of "The Socialist Call", photostatic copies of which are attached to this affidavit, were found in those materials while they were being processed by the Library.D

5. The Library has received additional materials from the Socialist Party of America and is presently processing such materials. As of the date of this affidavit, however, the only materials relating to Lee Harvey Oswald which have been found amongst the records of the Socialist Party of America presently in the possession of the Library are those of which photostatic copies are attached.

Signed the 28th day of May 1964.

(S)Virginia Gray,
(Mrs.) Virginia Gray.

DThe photostatic copies referred to in the above affidavit have been marked Gray Exhibit No. 1.


AFFIDAVIT OF DR. ALBERT F. STAPLES

The following affidavit was executed by Dr. Albert F. Staples on May 26, 1964.

AFFIDAVIT

PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION
ON THE ASSASSINATION OF
PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY

State of Texas,
County of Dallas, ss:

Dr. Albert F. Staples, being duly sworn says:

1. My name is Albert F. Staples. I reside at 6056 Ellsworth Street, Dallas, Texas. I am a dentist at the Baylor University College of Dentistry and am familiar with the records in possession of the College relating to Mrs. Lee Harvey Oswald.

2. I have caused a search of the files of the Baylor University College of Dentistry which reveals a file on Mrs. Lee Harvey Oswald. The foregoing file is now in the possession of the deponent. To the best of my knowledge this file contains the only papers relating to Mrs. Lee Harvey Oswald in the possession or control of the Baylor University College of Dentistry. Accordingly under my supervision photostatic copiesE have been made of this entire file, such copies being attached to this affidavit.

3. On information and belief the attached photostatic copies are of the entire file and comprise all the papers relating to Mrs. Lee Harvey Oswald in the possession and control of the Baylor University Dental Clinic.

Signed the 26th day of May 1964.

(S)Dr. Albert F. Staples,
Dr. Albert F. Staples.

EThe photostatic copies referred to in the above affidavit have been marked Staples Exhibit No. 1.


AFFIDAVIT OF KATHERINE MALLORY

The following affidavit was executed by Katherine Mallory on July 20, 1964.

AFFIDAVIT

PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION
ON THE ASSASSINATION OF
PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY

State of New York,
County of Broome, ss:

I, Katherine Mallory, 412 East Main Street, Endicott, New York, being duly sworn say:

211 1. In 1961 I was a sophomore at the University of Michigan. In March of 1961, I was a member of the University of Michigan band which toured Russia and the Near East.

2. We arrived in Minsk, U.S.S.R. from Moscow on March 10, 1961. While in Minsk, the band gave some concerts at the Minsk Polytechnic Institute. We stayed in a hotel in Minsk. We left Minsk on March 14 and proceeded to Kiev, U.S.S.R.

3. There was an evening in Minsk when members of the band were divided into small groups, each of which was assigned a Russian interpreter, for the purpose of going on a tour of the facilities of the Minsk Polytechnic Institute.

4. Near the conclusion of this tour, at about 10:00 p.m., when the band members were boarding a bus, I became surrounded by Russian students who were asking me questions. Although one student was interpreting I was having difficulty communicating with them.

5. At this point, an American approached and offered to act as an interpreter. I accepted the offer. While I never really had a chance to talk with him, he mentioned that he was an ex-Marine from Texas. Sometimes he spoke with a Texas accent and at other times he spoke with an English accent. Somehow I got the impression that he was working in Russia and that he never intended to return to the United States.

6. This American appeared well dressed. I think he wore a camel hair coat and possibly a tie. He did not indicate if he had been at the concert.

7. After just a few minutes of further questions from the Russian students, with the American interpreting, I boarded the bus. I never again saw nor heard from this individual. I noted in my diary something about the incident, and I wrote that this American seemed to be a crackpot. I did not meet any other Americans in Minsk.

8. I have seen pictures of Lee Harvey Oswald in the newspaper, and the individual I saw in Minsk very much resembles Oswald as pictured. I recall that the person I saw seemed to have more hair and was heavier than Lee Harvey Oswald as pictured in the newspapers.

9. Except possibly for this one occasion in Minsk, I never saw nor communicated with Lee Harvey Oswald.

Signed the 20th day of July 1964.

(S)Katherine Mallory,
Katherine Mallory.

AFFIDAVIT OF KATHERINE MALLORY

The following affidavit was executed by Katherine Mallory on July 20, 1964.

AFFIDAVIT

PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION
ON THE ASSASSINATION OF
PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY

State of New York,
County of Broome, ss:

I, Katherine Mallory, 412 East Main Street, Endicott, New York, being duly sworn say:

Following my telephone interview on July 10, 1964 with Mr. Richard Mosk, I rechecked my diary of the University of Michigan Symphony Band Tour and letters which I sent to my parents. Therefore, I append the following minor corrections of statements in the interest of being as accurate as I can.

Statements 3, 4, and 5. I made no mention of the tour of the Institute and therefore cannot verify the details of the arrangement, i.e., small groups. However, I recall that the tour preceded the talent show. The following is a statement from my diary; "Tonight the students at the Bilo (sic) Russian (White Russian) Polytechnic Institute put on a talent show for us ... (description of performance).... Afterward Jerry Anderson and I missed getting out with our crowd and we were mobbed by the students. I met a boy from Texas (now a Russian citizen) who translated questions and answers for me." In a letter to my parents dated March 17, 1961, "The first night we212 were there, the students of the Polytechnic Institute gave us a reception and put on a very nice talent show. Afterwards, we all were mobbed by the students. I met a young man probably about 26 who is from Texas but after the war he became a citizen of Minsk. It was rather weird meeting an ex-American but he did come in handy as an interpreter for me and the other students I was talking to."

Statement 7. While I am sure that in conversations about this incident I applied term "crackpot" I did not note it in my diary.

All other statements prepared on the basis of the telephone interview are true.

Signed the 20th day of July 1964.

(S)Katherine Mallory,
Katherine Mallory.

AFFIDAVIT OF MRS. MONICA KRAMER

The following affidavit was executed by Mrs. Monica Kramer on July 17, 1964.

AFFIDAVIT

PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION
ON THE ASSASSINATION OF
PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY

State of California,
County of Santa Barbara, ss:

I, Mrs. Monica Kramer, Janin Way, Sunny Acres, Solvang, California, being duly sworn say:

1. In 1961, Miss Rita Naman and I took a trip to Europe which included a visit to the Soviet Union. Miss. Naman had purchased a Singer automobile in Great Britain and we drove through Europe and the Soviet Union.

2. When we were in Moscow staying at the National Hotel, we met Mrs. Marie Hyde, who, to the best of my knowledge, presently resides in Port Angeles, Washington. Mrs. Hyde was desirous of driving with us to Warsaw. Such an arrangement was made.

3. My travel notes indicate that we arrived in Minsk, U.S.S.R., on August 10. After arriving at our hotel, we were asked to take a guided tour of Minsk. We subsequently found out that after we left the hotel, our bags had been searched. Out Intourist Guide's name was Svetlana.

4. We visited the Central Square where we stopped to take some photographs. Kramer Exhibit 1, also labelled Commission No. 859d, is a photograph taken by Miss Naman in Minsk on August 10, 1961. As I recall, it was taken between 5:00 p.m. and 6:00 p.m. The building in the background is the Palace of Culture, and the statue is one of Joseph Stalin. The automobile in the center of the picture is the one that was then owned by Miss Naman. The woman at the far left is the Intourist Guide. She appears to be speaking with me, the woman standing next to her. There are three men to the right of the automobile and a small boy in front of it, all of whom I did not know.

5. On every occasion that we stopped while on the trip through Russia, people would gather around the automobile and look at it. As a result, we became accustomed to this and therefore paid little or no attention to these people.

6. I cannot recall these three men. I never spoke with them. It now appears to me that the man in the middle, wearing dark trousers and a dark, short-sleeved plaid shirt, resembles Lee Harvey Oswald, whose picture I have seen in the newspapers.

7. I recall that Miss Naman spoke with somebody in Minsk who spoke English. They talked about records. I do not recall if this person was Lee Harvey Oswald.

8. We left Minsk on August 11, 1961.

9. Except for possibly on August 10, 1961, I never met nor communicated with Lee Harvey Oswald.

Signed the 17th day of July 1964.

(S)Mrs. Monica Kramer,
Mrs. Monica Kramer.

213

AFFIDAVIT OF RITA NAMAN

The following affidavit was executed by Rita Naman on July 17, 1964.

AFFIDAVIT

PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION
ON THE ASSASSINATION OF
PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY

State of California,
County of Santa Barbara, ss:

I, Rita Naman, Janin Way, Sunny Acres, Solvang, California, being duly sworn say:

1. I am in the real estate business in Santa Ynez, California, and I live with Mrs. Monica Kramer.

2. In 1961, Mrs. Kramer and I took a trip to Europe. I purchased an automobile in England, and we drove it through Europe and the Soviet Union.

3. While in Moscow we stayed at the National Hotel. There we met Mrs. Marie Hyde, who, as far as I know, currently resides in Port Angeles, Washington. We arranged to drive her to Warsaw, Poland.

4. All three of us left Moscow and travelled to Minsk, U. S. S. R. We arrived there on August 10, 1961. After going to our hotel, I was called by the Intourist Office and asked to go there. The official at the Intourist Office wanted to know why I was in Russia. He appeared hostile. I suspect that they were interested in me because in Moscow, I had given a person who claimed to be a student a Newsweek Magazine along with my business card. The official then insisted that Mrs. Kramer, Mrs. Hyde, and I go on a tour of Minsk. When we returned to our room after the tour, we found that our luggage had been searched.

5. Our Intourist guide's name was Svetlana. We visited the Central Square where we stopped to take some photographs. Kramer Exhibit 1, also labelled Commission No. 859 d, is a photograph taken by me at this time. As I recall, it was taken about 8 or 8:30 p.m. The building in the background is the Palace of Culture, and the statue is one of Joseph Stalin. The automobile in the center of the picture was owned by me. The woman at the far left is the Intourist Guide. She appears to be speaking with a woman standing next to her, who is Mrs. Kramer. There are three men to the right of the automobile and a small boy in front of it, all of whom I did not know.

6. Kramer Exhibit No. 2, also labelled Commission No. 859c, is a photograph taken by me at the same place and at about the same time; however, I took this photograph with Mrs. Hyde's camera. In this photograph Mrs. Hyde is at the far left with the Intourist Guide and Mrs. Kramer. Only two men are pictured to the right of the car.

7. I do not remember speaking to any of the men pictured in Kramer Exhibit 1 and in Kramer Exhibit 2. I was so disturbed by the earlier interview with the Intourist Guide official, that I cannot remember much of what happened thereafter.

8. I do recall that after this photograph was taken, I went to a nearby record store. When I left the store, a man spoke to me in an American accent and asked me about my car. He asked how many miles to the gallon it travelled. I do not recall if this man was the same one pictured in Kramer Exhibit 1 and in Kramer Exhibit 2.

9. The man appearing in these photographs, wearing dark trousers and a dark, short-sleeved, check shirt, resembles Lee Harvey Oswald, whose picture I have seen in the newspapers.

10. Except for possibly on August 10, 1961, I never met nor communicated with Lee Harvey Oswald.

11. We left Minsk on August 11, 1961.

Signed the 17th day of July 1964.

(S)Rita Naman,
Rita Naman.

214

AFFIDAVIT OF JOHN BRYAN McFARLAND AND MERYL McFARLAND

The following affidavit was executed by John Bryan McFarland and Meryl McFarland on May 28, 1964.

AFFIDAVIT

PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION
ON THE ASSASSINATION OF
PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY

Great Britain and Northern Ireland,
County of Lancaster, City of Liverpool,
Consulate of the United States of America, ss
:

Before me Wilfred V. Duke, Consul of the United States of America, duly commissioned and qualified, personally came John Bryan McFarland and Meryl McFarland, of 7a Riversdale Road, Liverpool, 19, England, who being duly sworn, depose and say that:

Q. When and where did you board the bus for Mexico City?

A. We boarded the Continental Trailways bus at Jackson, Mississippi, and traveled via connecting buses to Mexico City where we arrived September 27, 1963.

Q. When and where did you first see the man later identified as Lee Harvey Oswald?

A. We changed buses at Houston, Texas, at 2:00 a.m. September 26th and it was probably about 6:00 a.m. after it became light that we first saw him.

Q. What reason did Oswald give for traveling to Mexico?

A. He stated that he was en route to Cuba and that he could not travel there from the United States as it was against the law.

Q. Did you see Oswald speaking to any other persons?

A. Yes. We observed him conversing occasionally with two young Australian women who boarded the bus on the evening of September 26th at Monterrey, Mexico. He also conversed occasionally with an elderly man who sat in the seat next to him for a time.

Q. When did it first occur to you that Lee Harvey Oswald was the man you had met on the bus?

A. When we saw his pictures in the newspapers.

Q. How many suitcases was Oswald carrying when he boarded the bus at Houston, Texas, or any other time?

A. We did not see him carrying any suitcases at any time.

Q. Did Oswald check any luggage with the bus company so it would have been carried underneath the bus in the baggage compartment?

A. We never actually saw him check any luggage in with the bus company, but in the bus station at Mexico City the last we saw of him was waiting at the luggage check-out place obviously to collect some luggage.

Q. What kind of luggage was he carrying?

A. We did not notice but presume he must have been carrying some hand luggage.

Q. Did he check any suitcases or other packages at a place en route to Mexico City or otherwise dispose of them?

A. We never actually saw him check any luggage in with the bus company, but in the bus station at Mexico City the last we saw of him was waiting at the luggage check-out place obviously to collect some luggage.

Q. What kind of clothing was he wearing?

A. As far as we recollect, ordinary slacks and, a more definite recollection, a sort of zipper jerkin.

Q. Did he mention any names or places either in the United States or Mexico, in any connection whatever?

A. Only New Orleans, whence he said he had come. In the course of conversation, we worked out that he must have left New Orleans at about the same time we had left Jackson, Mississippi, i.e. 2:00 p.m. on Wednesday, September 25th, 1963.

Q. Did he show you any documents, such as passport or Fair Play for Cuba Committee Card, or letters, newspaper clippings or other similar material? If so, describe them as fully as possible.

215 A. We saw no document, but he said he was the secretary of the New Orleans branch of the Fair Play for Cuba Organization, and that he was on his way to Cuba to see Castro if he could. We saw him at the next table to ourselves in the Customs Shed at Laredo, but did not notice his passport or tourist card.

Signed the 28th day of May 1964.

(S)J. B. McFarland,
John Bryan McFarland.
(S)Meryl McFarland,
Meryl McFarland.

TESTIMONY OF PAMELA MUMFORD

The testimony of Pamela Mumford was taken at 12:30 p.m., on May 19, 1964, at 611 Wilshire Boulevard, Los Angeles, Calif., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Miss Mumford was accompanied by her attorney, Mr. C. C. Dillavou.

Pamela Mumford, called as a witness herein, having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows:

Mr. Ball. You received a letter, didn't you, from Mr. Rankin, as counsel for the Commission, advising you that we would request you to give your deposition?

Miss Mumford. Yes; that's right.

Mr. Ball. And you also received a copy of the joint resolution of the Congress, didn't you, authorizing the Commission to proceed to investigate the facts concerning the assassination of President Kennedy?

Miss Mumford. Yes.

Mr. Ball. And you willingly give your deposition today, do you not?

Miss Mumford. I do.

Mr. Ball. To tell us all the facts that you might know to assist us in this investigation?

Miss Mumford. Right.

Mr. Ball. Your name is Pamela Mumford?

Miss Mumford. Right.

Mr. Ball. Where do you live?

Miss Mumford. 153 North New Hampshire Avenue, Los Angeles 4.

Mr. Ball. What is your occupation?

Miss Mumford. Secretary.

Mr. Ball. A legal secretary?

Miss Mumford. Legal secretary.

Mr. Ball. And you work for the firm of Dillavou & Cox, do you?

Miss Mumford. Right.

Mr. Ball. That is in a building at 6th and Grand, Los Angeles, Calif.?

Miss Mumford. Right.

Mr.