The Project Gutenberg EBook of Warren Commission (8 of 26): Hearings Vol.
VIII (of 15), by The President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy

This eBook is for the use of anyone anywhere at no cost and with
almost no restrictions whatsoever.  You may copy it, give it away or
re-use it under the terms of the Project Gutenberg License included
with this eBook or online at www.gutenberg.org


Title: Warren Commission (8 of 26): Hearings Vol. VIII (of 15)

Author: The President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy

Release Date: October 20, 2013 [EBook #44008]

Language: English

Character set encoding: ISO-8859-1

*** START OF THIS PROJECT GUTENBERG EBOOK WARREN COMMISSION - HEARINGS V8 ***




Produced by Curtis Weyant, Charlene Taylor, Charlie Howard,
and the Online Distributed Proofreading Team at
http://www.pgdp.net. Images generously provided by
www.history-matters.com.

INVESTIGATION OF
THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY

HEARINGS
Before the President's Commission
on the Assassination
of President Kennedy

Pursuant To Executive Order 11130, an Executive order creating a Commission to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of the late President John F. Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of the man charged with the assassination and S.J. Res. 137, 88th Congress, a concurrent resolution conferring upon the Commission the power to administer oaths and affirmations, examine witnesses, receive evidence, and issue subpenas

Volume
VIII

UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE

WASHINGTON, D.C.

U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE, WASHINGTON: 1964

For sale in complete sets by the Superintendent of Documents, U.S. Government Printing Office Washington, D.C., 20402

iii

PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION
ON THE
ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT KENNEDY

Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman

Biographical information on the Commissioners and the staff can be found in the Commission's Report.

v

Preface

The testimony of the following witnesses is contained in volume VIII: Edward Voebel, William E. Wulf, Bennierita Smith, Frederick S. O'Sullivan, Mildred Sawyer, Anne Boudreaux, Viola Peterman, Myrtle Evans, Julian Evans, Philip Eugene Vinson, and Hiram Conway, who were associated with Lee Harvey Oswald in his youth; Lillian Murret, Marilyn Dorothea Murret, Charles Murret, John M. Murret, and Edward John Pic, Jr., who were related to Oswald; John Carro, Dr. Renatus Hartogs, and Evelyn Grace Strickman Siegel, who came into contact with Oswald while he was in New York during his youth; Nelson Delgado, Daniel Patrick Powers, John E. Donovan, Lt. Col. A. G. Folsom, Jr., Capt. George Donabedian, James Anthony Botelho, Donald Peter Camarata, Peter Francis Connor, Allen D. Graf, John Rene Heindel, David Christie Murray, Jr., Paul Edward Murphy, Henry J. Roussel, Jr., Mack Osborne, Richard Dennis Call, and Erwin Donald Lewis, who testified regarding Oswald's service in the Marine Corps; Martin Isaacs and Pauline Virginia Bates, who saw Oswald when he returned from Russia; and Max E. Clark, George A. Bouhe, Anna N. Meller, Elena A. Hall, John Raymond Hall, Mrs. Frank H. Ray (Valentina); and Mr. and Mrs. Igor Vladimir Voshinin, who became acquainted with Oswald and/or his wife after their return to Texas in 1962.

vii

Contents

EXHIBITS INTRODUCED

1

Hearings Before the President's Commission
on the
Assassination of President Kennedy

TESTIMONY OF EDWARD VOEBEL

The testimony of Edward Voebel was taken on April 7, 1964, at the Old Civil Courts Building, Royal and Conti Streets, New Orleans, La., by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Edward Voebel, 4916 Canal Street, New Orleans, La., after first being duly sworn, testified as follows:

Mr. Jenner. You are Edward Voebel?

Mr. Voebel. That's right.

Mr. Jenner. And you live at 4916 Canal Street in New Orleans?

Mr. Voebel. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Where is your place of business?

Mr. Voebel. At the same place.

Mr. Jenner. They are both at the same place, 4916 Canal Street?

Mr. Voebel. That's right.

Mr. Jenner. And that's here in New Orleans?

Mr. Voebel. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And you are associated in business, I believe, with your mother and father, are you not?

Mr. Voebel. Mother, uncle, and grandmother.

Mr. Jenner. Your mother, your uncle, and your grandmother?

Mr. Voebel. That's right.

Mr. Jenner. And what is your business?

Mr. Voebel. Quality Florist Co.

Mr. Jenner. What is your age, Mr. Voebel?

Mr. Voebel. I am 23.

Mr. Jenner. You received a letter from Mr. Rankin, general counsel of the Warren Commission, did you not?

Mr. Voebel. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And enclosed with the letter were a copy of Senate Joint Resolution 137, authorizing the creation of the Commission to investigate the assassination of President John Fitzgerald Kennedy; is that right?

Mr. Voebel. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And Executive Order No. 11130, of President Lyndon B. Johnson appointing that Commission and fixing its powers and duties; is that right?

Mr. Voebel. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And a copy of the rules and regulations under which we take testimony before the Commission and also by way of deposition, such as this one. You received that also?

Mr. Voebel. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. I take it you gather from those documents that the Commission is enjoined to investigate all of the facts and circumstances surrounding and bearing upon the assassination of the late President John Fitzgerald Kennedy.

Mr. Voebel. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. I am Albert E. Jenner. Jr., member of the legal staff of the Commission, and I am here with my associate, Mr. Liebeler, taking depositions here2 in New Orleans, which is the birthplace of Lee Harvey Oswald, and making inquiries of those who in the ordinary course of their lives had some contact with this man, and also other aspects of the assassination. Now, it is our understanding that you did have some contact with him; is that right?

Mr. Voebel. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. I would like to ask you a few questions about that.

Mr. Voebel. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. When did you first become acquainted with Lee Harvey Oswald, and under which circumstances? Just tell me generally how that came about.

Mr. Voebel. Well, it was at school.

Mr. Jenner. Is that Beauregard Junior High School?

Mr. Voebel. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Do you know what year that was?

Mr. Voebel. Let's see. I will have to figure that out. That was about 1954 or 1955.

Mr. Jenner. How did you become aware of him?

Mr. Voebel. Going to school there. Do you want me to tell you the whole story?

Mr. Jenner. Well, let's get in a few preliminary remarks first. I would like to have a little background in the record before we go into that.

Mr. Voebel. Yes, sir. I don't exactly remember when I first saw him, because I might have seen him going to school and back without knowing who it was, but I really became acquainted with him when he had this fight with this boy, and we took him back into the boy's restroom and tried to patch him up a bit.

Mr. Jenner. Were there individuals involved in this fight that you remember?

Mr. Voebel. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Tell me the circumstances of that, please.

Mr. Voebel. Well, the day before, maybe a couple of days before, Lee had a fight with a couple of boys.

Mr. Jenner. Do you know their names?

Mr. Voebel. They were the Neumeyer boys, John and Mike.

Mr. Jenner. John and Mike?

Mr. Voebel. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. They were classmates?

Mr. Voebel. Yes. Well, I think one of them was in the same grade as Lee. One was older than the other one. The younger one was maybe a grade or two below Lee, and Lee was in a fight with John, the older one.

Mr. Jenner. Let's see if I have that straight now. Lee was in a fight with the elder of two Neumeyer brothers; is that right?

Mr. Voebel. Right. He was in a fight with John Neumeyer. The fight, I think started on the school ground, and it sort of wandered down the street in the direction naturally in which I was going.

Mr. Jenner. Was it a protracted fight?

Mr. Voebel. Protracted?

Mr. Jenner. Yes; did it keep going on?

Mr. Voebel. Yes, it kept going on, across lawns and sidewalks, and people would run them off, and they would only run to the next place, and it continued that way from block to block, and as people would run them off of one block, they would go on to the next.

Mr. Jenner. That was fisticuffs; is that right?

Mr. Voebel. Right.

Mr. Jenner. Were they about the same age?

Mr. Voebel. Oswald and John?

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mr. Voebel. I don't know; I guess so.

Mr. Jenner. How about size?

Mr. Voebel. I think John was a little smaller, a little shorter than Lee.

Mr. Jenner. Do you know what caused the fight?

Mr. Voebel. No; I don't. I don't remember that.

Mr. Jenner. But you followed this fight from place to place, did you not?

Mr. Voebel. Yes.

3 Mr. Jenner. Why, were you curious?

Mr. Voebel. Yes; and well, it was also on my way home, going that way. The fight traveled my route home.

Mr. Jenner. All right, what happened as this fight progressed down the street?

Mr. Voebel. Well, I think Oswald was getting the best of John, and the little brother sticking by his brother, stepped in too, and then it was two against one, so with that Oswald just seemed to give one good punch to the little brother's jaw, and his mouth started bleeding.

Mr. Jenner. Whose mouth?

Mr. Voebel. Mike Neumeyer.

Mr. Jenner. The little boy?

Mr. Voebel. Yes, sir. Mike's mouth started bleeding, and when that happened, the whole sympathy of the crowd turned against Oswald for some reason, which I didn't understand, because it was two against one, and Oswald had a right to defend himself. In a way, I felt that this boy got what he deserved, and in fact, later on I found out that this boy that got his mouth cut had been in the habit of biting his lip. Oswald might have hit him on the shoulder or something, and the boy might have bit his lip, and it might have looked like Oswald hit him in the mouth, but anyway, somebody else came out and ran everybody off then, and the whole sympathy of the crowd was against Lee at that time because he had punched little Mike in the mouth and made his mouth bleed. I don't remember anything that happened after that, but I think I just went on home and everybody went their way, and then the next day or a couple of days later we were coming out of school in the evening, and Oswald, I think, was a little in front of me and I was a couple of paces behind him, and I was talking with some other people, and I didn't actually see what happened because it all happened so quick.

Some big guy, probably from a high school—he looked like a tremendous football player—punched Lee right square in the mouth, and without him really knowing or seeing really who did it. I don't know who he was, and he ran off. That's when we ran after Lee to see if we could help him.

Mr. Jenner. He just swung one lick and ran?

Mr. Voebel. Yes; that's what they call passing the post. He passed the post on him.

Mr. Jenner. Passed the post, what's that?

Mr. Voebel. That's when somebody walks up to you and punches you. That's what's called punching the post, and someone passed the post on Lee at that time.

Mr. Jenner. You think that might have happened because of the squabble he had with the two Neumeyer boys a day or two before?

Mr. Voebel. Yes; I think that was what brought it all about. I think this was sort of a revenge thing on the part of the Neumeyer boys, so that's when I felt sympathy toward Lee for something like this happening, and a couple of other boys and I—I don't remember who they were, but they brought him back in the restroom and tried to fix him up, and that's when our friendship, or semi-friendship, you might say, began. We weren't really buddy-buddy, but it was just a friendship, I would say.

Mr. Jenner. But you do remember that you attempted to help him when he was struck in the mouth on that occasion; is that right?

Mr. Voebel. Yes; I think he even lost a tooth from that. I think he was cut on the lip, and a tooth was knocked out.

Mr. Jenner. Well, you had a mild friendship with him from that point on, would you say?

Mr. Voebel. Right.

Mr. Jenner. Tell me about that. Did you get together occasionally and share interests, and what were his interests?

Mr. Voebel. I don't remember exactly what his interests were. I never even discussed that, that I know of. I was taking music uptown—I told the investigator that I was taking clarinet lessons at the time, but actually I was taking piano lessons, so that part was a mistake, but I did play both of them, but at that time I was taking piano lessons, and sometimes I would stop off4 at Lee's, and we would play darts and pool. Lee's the one who taught me to play pool. In fact, he invited me to come and play pool with him. He lived over the top of the pool hall.

Mr. Jenner. And did you accept his invitation?

Mr. Voebel. Yes; that's when we played darts.

Mr. Jenner. You played darts and you shot pool also; is that right?

Mr. Voebel. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Where was that?

Mr. Voebel. On Exchange Alley.

Mr. Jenner. Exchange Alley?

Mr. Voebel. Yes; or Exchange Place, whatever you call it.

Mr. Jenner. Did you find him adept in playing pool?

Mr. Voebel. You see, I had never played before and he showed me the fundamentals of the game, and after a couple of games I started beating him, and he would say, "Beginner's luck," so I don't think he was that good, because I am really not that good at playing pool. I mean, I don't think he was a great pool player.

Mr. Jenner. But he showed an interest in the game and some adaption to the game at the time he was teaching you; is that right?

Mr. Voebel. Yes; he liked it.

Mr. Jenner. He liked to play pool?

Mr. Voebel. Yes; he seemed to like it.

Mr. Jenner. Did you ever meet his mother?

Mr. Voebel. I think I met her one time, and for some reason I had a picture in my mind which was different from when I saw her in the paper after all of this happened. I didn't recognize her. She was a lot thinner, and her hair wasn't as gray, as I recall it, when I met her. Of course, this was about 8 years ago, but I can remember she had a black dress on, and she was sitting down smoking a cigarette; now, maybe she wasn't smoking, but this is a picture that comes to my mind as I recall that.

Mr. Jenner. Do you smoke?

Mr. Voebel. No.

Mr. Jenner. Did Lee smoke?

Mr. Voebel. No.

Mr. Jenner. Do you drink?

Mr. Voebel. Well, I don't, really.

Mr. Jenner. Do you drink occasionally?

Mr. Voebel. If it's in a party, or to be sociable I do, but I am not a drinker.

Mr. Jenner. How about Lee, was he a drinker?

Mr. Voebel. Well, you see, we were only at the age of about fourteen or fifteen, and smoking and drinking just wasn't of interest to a lot of people our age at that time. Kids did it, but I had no reason for drinking at the time, because I mean, I was just 14 years old, and I think the legal age here is 18, so that didn't actually enter my mind.

There was another thing why I sort of formed a friendship with Lee, and that was that most of the people that went to our school used to smoke, which I thought was a bum type nature, and Lee wasn't one of those, so he fitted in with my character, so to speak, a little bit more than the others.

Mr. Jenner. All right; those are the things I am interested in, what you think of Lee's habits and personality and so forth, from the time you knew him, and don't you worry about whether it's important or not. That's my problem.

Mr. Voebel. Right.

Mr. Jenner. I'm trying to get a picture of this boy as he became a man, and that includes what he was doing and thinking when he was 14 or 15 years old, and as far as you are concerned, during the time you were sociable with him and particularly what your reaction to him was. People change, of course.

Mr. Voebel. Right. Now, I want to make one thing clear. I liked Lee. I felt that we had a lot in common at that time. Now, if I met Lee Oswald, say a year ago, I am not saying that I would still like him, but the things I remember about Lee when we were going to school together caused me to have this sort of friendship for him, and I think in a way I understood him better than5 most of the other kids. He had the sort of personality that I could like. He was the type of boy that I could like, and if he had not changed at all, I probably still would have the same feeling for Lee Oswald, at least more so than for the Neumeyer brothers. Of course, as you say, people do change, and I don't know how I would have felt about Lee as we both grew older. I lost contact with Lee years ago.

Mr. Jenner. Would you describe the Neumeyer brothers as roustabouts?

Mr. Voebel. Yes; they were ruffians, real punk-type guys. At least, that was my impression of them.

Mr. Jenner. Well, that's what I want, your impression. Would you say there were other boys of the type of the Neumeyer brothers at Beauregard School while you were attending there?

Mr. Voebel. Oh, yes; I would say most of them seemed to be troublemakers. In fact, it was almost impossible to go to school at that time without brushing against somebody or getting involved in a fight sooner or later. You take me, I am not a fighter, but I had to fight at that school.

Mr. Jenner. You did?

Mr. Voebel. Yes; it was almost impossible to get along with the type of characters that were going to that school at that time.

Mr. Jenner. So this particular incident, when Lee had this fight, that in your opinion is no indication that the boy was a rabble rouser or inclined to get into fights; is that right? Your impression was just the opposite of that; isn't that true?

Mr. Voebel. Well, no; I will say this; I would back down from a fight a lot quicker that Lee would. Now, he wouldn't start any fights, but if you wanted to start one with him, he was going to make sure that he ended it, or you were going to really have one, because he wasn't going to take anything from anybody. I mean, people could call me names and I might just brush that off, but not Lee. You couldn't do that with Lee.

Mr. Jenner. Would you say he was unusually quick to take offense?

Mr. Voebel. Well, I didn't know him to be that way. He could have been, now, but I wouldn't go that strong with it. All I'm saying is that if you picked on Lee, you had a fight on your hands. He wouldn't go out of his way to avoid it.

Mr. Jenner. All I'm asking you is what your impression was, and I don't want you to speculate as to what might have been. Do you think he was a person to take offense at anything on the spur of the minute, so to speak?

Mr. Voebel. Well, like I said, he didn't take anything from anybody.

Mr. Jenner. Was this a coeducational school?

Mr. Voebel. Right.

Mr. Jenner. High school or junior high?

Mr. Voebel. Junior high school, but it just had been changed. It was a grammar school, and it had just been changed to a junior high, and when it changed to a junior high, it seemed to draw a lot of bad characters. As time went on, it might have slacked off; I don't know how it is now, but living right near there and seeing the kids come home now very often, I think they have gotten worse, because now they have got gang wars and things like that.

Mr. Jenner. You still live close to the school?

Mr. Voebel. Yes; and I know they have gang wars in this cemetery near there, and there was this guy that I believe was pushing narcotics, pushing dope. I tried working with the police department for a long time to get this guy out there. I believe he was pushing dope, but it was hard to pin him down. I worked almost 2 months with the narcotics people, but he was too slick for us. He just disappeared. He was there for about a year, and then he disappeared.

Mr. Jenner. Are you familiar with the Warren Easton School?

Mr. Voebel. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Did you go to Warren Easton?

Mr. Voebel. No; I went to Fortier.

Mr. Jenner. Warren Easton is a senior high school; right?

Mr. Jenner. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Is it somewhere close to Beauregard?

Mr. Voebel. Oh, about 6 or 8 blocks away, I would say.

6 Mr. Jenner. Is it normal for students going to Beauregard Junior High School to then enroll in Warren Easton?

Mr. Voebel. Yes; that's normally right.

Mr. Jenner. That's the regular progression?

Mr. Voebel. Right.

Mr. Jenner. Did you know that Lee attended Warren Easton?

Mr. Voebel. No; to tell the truth, I lost complete contact with him after I left Beauregard. I might have seen him once or twice during that summer.

Mr. Jenner. Were you a grade up on him, or were you in the same grade, or what?

Mr. Voebel. I don't remember. Let's see—no; I think we were in the same grade, I think we were.

Mr. Jenner. When you left Beauregard, where did you go to high school?

Mr. Voebel. I went to Fortier.

Mr. Jenner. Any reason?

Mr. Voebel. Well, Fortier has an ROTC system.

Mr. Jenner. That's why you went over there?

Mr. Voebel. To get in the ROTC; yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Are you a service man?

Mr. Voebel. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. In what branch?

Mr. Voebel. Army.

Mr. Jenner. Did some other boys pal around with you and Lee?

Mr. Voebel. Not that I can remember. You see, the only relationship we had after this fight I told you about, was when I would be downtown and stop in, and we would play pool or play darts, but I don't remember participating in any events with Lee at school. For example, I don't remember having played ball or anything with Lee, so probably our gym periods were different.

I used to go straight home after school, and I think he did too, so there was no buddying around on either of our parts at school. I had a lot of friends and many acquaintances, but I don't think Lee did.

Mr. Jenner. You don't think Lee did?

Mr. Voebel. No, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Do you have a recollection or conception of any ridicule accorded him when he first turned up at Beauregard?

Mr. Voebel. Yes; I think there was something. Always when someone comes in new, they are supposed to belong to something like a gang or clique, and if you didn't, then you had to prove yourself. It's just like the old story they tell about the Irish Channel, about how anybody new moving in there had to prove himself or fight the leader in the community before they accepted him.

Mr. Jenner. Tell me some more about the Irish Channel, and how that compares to the Beauregard situation when you were attending there.

Mr. Voebel. Well, it may be different now, but I know in my day when you went to Beauregard, if you didn't belong to a gang or something, you had to prove yourself. You had to fight somebody.

Now, the Irish Channel is a part of town around Magazine Street, oh, maybe the 3000 block, generally around Magazine and Louisiana Avenue, I think, in that section, and it was pretty well known that any time a stranger or someone new moved in the neighborhood, he had to face something like that. The whole neighborhood had gangs, and unless he joined one of them someone would have to fight something, and it was the same at Beauregard. Of course, it was all, you know, children and adolescent things.

Mr. Jenner. And it was your impression that Lee had that social force, whatever it was; is that right?

Mr. Voebel. Yes, sir; he met it head on.

Mr. Jenner. He was inclined to meet it head on and not back up?

Mr. Voebel. Right. He wouldn't take anything. I used to try to avoid it as much as possible, until you just couldn't avoid it any more. I think a few of the boys at the time got a wrong impression of me. They thought I was just a fat kid, and I wouldn't do anything, and I used to take a little pushing around, and another thing, they would always be in gangs. Now, if you got them alone, you could whip them, but they would hang around in bunches.

7 In fact, I had an incident like that happen to me over at that school where this boy marked me out. He said he didn't like the way I looked, so he just kept talking and trying to force me into an incident, and finally he got it. I beat the dickens out of him, and it was after school, almost the same way this happened to Lee.

Word got around at the school what I had done, and a whole gang of people met me after school one day, but I was lucky enough to talk myself out of it. Now, when they passed the post on Lee, he was inclined to fight back, but I had sense enough to know that you can't fight a whole gang, so I talked myself out of it. This gang came over to my house and piled out of automobiles and started joshing and using all kinds of vulgar language to try to get me to come out, and my uncle ran them off, and after that I didn't have any more trouble. You just had to prove yourself to gain the respect of those gangs.

Mr. Jenner. They didn't attack you any more?

Mr. Voebel. No.

Mr. Jenner. Would you say that the course of conduct of Lee Oswald was normal, having in mind the problems he was facing?

Mr. Voebel. Yes, except that he didn't make friends.

Mr. Jenner. He did not?

Mr. Voebel. No; he was not inclined to make friends.

Mr. Jenner. But you don't know why he was so disinclined?

Mr. Voebel. Well, let's just put it this way; he didn't make friends. It was just that people and things just didn't interest him generally. He was just living in his own world, let's say.

Mr. Jenner. But you did have some measure of common interest that you told me about?

Mr. Voebel. I guess you are trying to get at the gun. Is that what you have in mind?

Mr. Jenner. Well, I am not going to say what I'm trying to get at.

Mr. Voebel. Well, I know Lee seemed to have an interest in guns.

Mr. Jenner. And these were regular weapons, not toys?

Mr. Voebel. That's right, military weapons. My uncle started a collection while he was in the service, and he brought back a few foreign military weapons.

Mr. Jenner. Was that World War I?

Mr. Voebel. World War II.

Mr. Jenner. Your uncle?

Mr. Voebel. That's right, my uncle.

Mr. Jenner. And you also would say that you had an interest in guns; is that right?

Mr. Voebel. Yes, I was interested in guns. In fact, we had guns around the house all the time. We were always interested in them, my uncle and I, and I learned to shoot a pistol when I was about, oh, 7 years old, you see.

Mr. Jenner. Did Lee share your enthusiasm for collecting weapons?

Mr. Voebel. Oh, no; I don't think I even told Lee about how I felt about that. I don't think Lee was interested in weapons for the same reason I was. I mean, I like weapons because I like mechanics. I like anything you can take apart and especially weapons, and I've always liked reading about the history of different guns, and I have often thought about what could have happened in a situation had they had this weapon or that weapon, you know more modern weapons than the ones they did have. I don't think Lee was interested in the history of any weapons. For example, he wanted a pistol, but it just seemed like he wanted the pistol just to have one, not for any purposes of collecting them or anything.

I also like sport cars. You've heard of people who like mechanics and cars. I wanted them for a purpose, whereas Lee would be inclined to want something just to have it, I think.

Mr. Jenner. Did you have an interest in automobiles at that time?

Mr. Voebel. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. Jenner. Did Lee?

Mr. Voebel. No.

Mr. Jenner. You couldn't interest him in that?

8 Mr. Voebel. No; I was interested in a lot of things. I had taken music, and I liked automobiles, and I collected weapons, just a lot of things, and Lee didn't share any of that with me, because his interests didn't seem to run that way.

Mr. Jenner. Was he interested in music?

Mr. Voebel. No; he wasn't.

Mr. Jenner. Do you know whether he knew how to operate an automobile?

Mr. Voebel. I never had seen him drive at all.

Mr. Jenner. Did you ever discuss the subject with him?

Mr. Voebel. Not that I can remember.

Mr. Jenner. What was your impression as to whether he could drive or couldn't drive an automobile?

Mr. Voebel. I don't think he could drive. The only thing I think he was interested in besides reading, that I could gather, was one day he went fishing and he caught a whole bunch of little fish in City Park. They were no bigger than that.

Mr. Jenner. Almost minnows?

Mr. Voebel. Right, and I think he liked to fish.

Mr. Jenner. Did he talk about fishing?

Mr. Voebel. Well, not as fishermen do, but I could tell that he enjoyed fishing, at least that day. I do know that he did go fishing, although I don't know how often, but I know he bought a whole rig and went fishing that day.

Mr. Jenner. What did you observe as to his financial circumstances?

Mr. Voebel. Financial circumstances?

Mr. Jenner. Yes; as to his home and his dress, and his means as to his finances.

Mr. Voebel. Poor.

Mr. Jenner. Poor?

Mr. Voebel. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And you were reasonably well fixed; isn't that right?

Mr. Voebel. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And you did notice by contrast that he was a poor boy?

Mr. Voebel. Right.

Mr. Jenner. That made no difference to you?

Mr. Voebel. Not a bit. That's another thing about me. It doesn't matter whether a friend of mine has money or not. Some of my best friends are very poor, and I also have rich friends, but that doesn't matter to me. It's just the individual person. I don't belong to any cliques. I don't fraternize with any type of group that bands together because of some class reason or anything like that. I like people because of maybe an interest that is similar to mine, someone that I have a more or less common understanding with on different subjects that I am interested in. I don't go for these people that belong to clubs or groups like that, because I don't have the time.

Mr. Jenner. Are you married?

Mr. Voebel. No.

Mr. Jenner. When did you get out of the service?

Mr. Voebel. Two years ago. I just served 6 months.

Mr. Jenner. That's a sort of special program?

Mr. Voebel. Yes; 6 months in the Reserves.

Mr. Jenner. Then you have to serve 2 weeks each year; is that right?

Mr. Voebel. Right. This year we are going to meet at the Brooklyn Army Terminal and also take in the World's Fair?

Mr. Jenner. Tell me more about your association with Oswald. You say you played darts with him and you would go to the poolroom beneath the apartment where he lived and shoot pool with him?

Mr. Voebel. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Did you boys hang around the poolroom after you would shoot pool?

Mr. Voebel. No; nothing like that. We would go down and play two or three games, and then I had to go because it would be getting late in the day. You see, that would be after my music lesson, so after a couple of games I would leave and go on home. We didn't hang around at all. For one thing, I had so many things to do. I had my music lessons and my schoolwork, and with my folks9 in business, I had to help them out in the shop, so my time was pretty scarce at that time.

Mr. Jenner. Did Lee ever own a weapon?

Mr. Voebel. A real one?

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mr. Voebel. Not that I know of.

Mr. Jenner. Now, you emphasized that word "real." Is there something there that you want to tell me about?

Mr. Voebel. Well, he did own a plastic model of a .45.

Mr. Jenner. A plastic model?

Mr. Voebel. Yes; and he showed that to me. I guess you want to know now about his plan for this robbery. Actually I wasn't too much impressed with the whole idea at first, because I had heard so much talk about stealing and robbing and things like that, that it really didn't bother me until he did shock me one day when he came up with a whole plan and everything that he needed for a burglary, you see.

Mr. Jenner. Tell me about that.

Mr. Voebel. Well, we were over at Easton.

Mr. Jenner. Easton High School?

Mr. Voebel. Yes; we were over there for some program that they were putting on for junior-high people, acquainting them with the high school.

Mr. Jenner. Was that right at the time you were graduating from Beauregard?

Mr. Voebel. Right.

Mr. Jenner. And he was preparing to graduate at the same time from Beauregard; right?

Mr. Voebel. I think so.

Mr. Jenner. Wasn't there a period when he dropped out of Beauregard altogether?

Mr. Voebel. I don't remember.

Mr. Jenner. Or was that at Easton?

Mr. Voebel. I don't remember.

Mr. Jenner. You don't remember that?

Mr. Voebel. No.

Mr. Jenner. You don't remember him being out of school entirely for about a year?

Mr. Voebel. No; that might have been over at Easton. It could have been over there, but I don't remember that at all.

Mr. Jenner. All right, go on with your story.

Mr. Voebel. Well, this program we had, that was a band concert, and we were listening to the band and I think this was when he revealed the plan for stealing this pistol from a place on Rampart Street.

Mr. Jenner. Did he seek to enlist you in that plan?

Mr. Voebel. No; not really, he just told me about it. He had observed a pistol in this window, this show window, on Rampart Street, and his plan was to steal it.

Mr. Jenner. It wasn't one of these collector's items?

Mr. Voebel. No; I don't think so. I can't remember the pistol, to tell you the truth, but I don't think it was a collector's piece. It was just a weapon. It might have been a Smith & Wesson. I think it was an automatic, but I don't remember. I really didn't pay too much attention to it.

Mr. Jenner. You actually saw the pistol in the window?

Mr. Voebel. Yes. To get back to my story, it was maybe the following week that I was up at his house, and he came out with a glasscutter and a box with this plastic pistol in it, and I think he had a plan as to how he was going to try to get in there and get this pistol.

Mr. Jenner. You mean in the Rampart Street store?

Mr. Voebel. Yes. Now, I don't remember if he was planning to use this plastic pistol in the robbery or not, or just to take it and cut the glass and break it out, and get the pistol that way. I don't think he was really sure even then how he wanted to do it, but finally he told me his complete plans and how he was going to cut the glass out of the window and everything, and10 I didn't know what to tell him, so he said, "Why don't you come over and look at this pistol and tell me what kind it is, and what you think of my plan?" So I said all right, and so we walked over there to this store and we looked at this pistol in the window, and like I said, I don't remember what kind it was.

He said, "Well, what do you think?" and I didn't know what to tell him. I didn't know how to talk him out of it, so then I happened to notice this band around the window, a metal tape that they use for burglar alarms, and I got to working on that idea in the hope that I could talk him out of trying it, and I told him, I said, "Well, I don't think that's a good idea, because if you cut that window, it might crack that tape, and the burglar alarm will go off," and I don't think he believed me, but I told him, "Let's go in the store and look at it from the inside," and so I convinced him that it would be too dangerous to try it, that this was a burglar alarm that would go off, and so anyway, he finally gave up the idea. There had been some jewel robberies on Canal Street and the way they were doing it was cutting a hole in the window, such as Lee planned to do. I remember reading about that, but anyway, he finally changed his mind about trying to rob the store, and that was the end of that.

Mr. Jenner. What kind of glasscutter was this that he showed you?

Mr. Voebel. Oh, it was just a real cheap one.

Mr. Jenner. This was a plate glass window, though, you say?

Mr. Voebel. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. It never occurred to you that he couldn't cut a plate glass window with a glass cutter?

Mr. Voebel. Not at that time; no. I didn't know anything about the cutting of glass anyway. I just thought he could do it, you know.

Mr. Jenner. Did you hear any more about that event afterwards?

Mr. Voebel. No; I think it just played out. I don't think he really wanted to go through with it, to tell you the truth. I think he was really looking for a way out. It was just some fantastic thing he got in his mind, and actually it never did amount to anything. I mean, it seemed to me like he just wanted me to discourage him to the point where he could back out of the whole thing, and he never went through with it, and I never heard anymore about it after that. Now that I look back on it, I think maybe he was just thinking along the lines that if he went through with it, that he would look big among the guys, you know, but I am just speculating on that, of course.

Mr. Jenner. Did you ever have any discussions with Lee about politics?

Mr. Voebel. No.

Mr. Jenner. I mean the politics in the pure sense.

Mr. Voebel. No; we didn't discuss that. We were too young, I guess, to be interested too much in politics at that time. I have read things about Lee having developed ideas as to Marxism and communism way back when he was a child, but I believe that's a lot of baloney.

Mr. Jenner. You and he never discussed anything like that, then?

Mr. Voebel. No; I am sure he had no interest in those things at that time, at least that I know of. Of course, we took courses like political science and courses like that, and he might have done a lot of reading and studying along that line at that time, but I don't even know that. I know we never discussed anything like that.

Mr. Jenner. Now at this time, his two brothers, they were in the service, I believe; is that right?

Mr. Voebel. Well, I don't know. He never did say. I know he did have two brothers, but I didn't know what they were doing.

Mr. Jenner. They weren't around for any of this playing darts or playing pool, or anything else that you and Lee participated in, were they?

Mr. Voebel. No, I never saw them. I never met them.

Mr. Jenner. Did you form an opinion as to the relationship between Lee and his mother?

Mr. Voebel. Well, I know it wasn't the type of relationship that you usually see between a mother and her children. I'm just giving you my opinion on that, now. I know that they weren't very close, as far as Lee was concerned, but of11 course she was always around, and I think she tried to take good care of him, but it was hard with a person like Lee to know what he was thinking or doing all the time.

I think Lee loved his mother and was concerned about her, but there was something lacking there that you usually see between a mother and her children, as far as I am concerned, but with the type man Lee was, I guess a lot of that is understandable. You just couldn't get through to him. He just wasn't communicative. He just didn't talk too much about anything.

Mr. Jenner. Was he curt as to his mother, that you observed? I mean, did he cut her off short in any way?

Mr. Voebel. Well, I noticed the normal resentment going on in him at that time, but I was the same way, and I remember seeing that in other kids at that time. Your mother might be telling you things that are normally good for you, but I think every child resents discipline to a certain extent. I know I did at that time, but as to Lee and his mother, I don't think there was anything violent between them, if you know what I mean but at the same time he wasn't what you would call a mamma's boy.

Mr. Jenner. What do you mean by that expression, "mamma's boy"?

Mr. Voebel. Well, that's just an expression that was used at that time.

Mr. Jenner. Was it used with respect to Lee and his mother?

Mr. Voebel. No; never. He was no mamma's boy.

Mr. Jenner. Well, did you have the impression that his mother was often indulgent toward him?

Mr. Voebel. In one way; yes.

Mr. Jenner. In which way was that?

Mr. Voebel. Well, if he wanted something, no matter what it was, she would always seem willing to go out of her way to get it for him. Even if she couldn't afford it, she would try to get it for him. Of course, if there was something he wanted and she didn't think it was good for him, I don't know about that; I don't have any recollection of anything like that, but I know she did everything she could for Lee, and maybe he didn't always show his appreciation the way other kids would, but that's just the way he was.

Mr. Jenner. What sort of impression did you have of Lee's attitude as to his lot in life, in other words, whether he felt that since his father died so young, and he had, I mean Lee, had received a bad deal in life. What was his attitude about that, if any?

Mr. Voebel. Well, I think he was impressed with the fact that his father had died at a young age, and that he never got to know his father. I think that left a mark on him, but I don't think that's unusual in itself. I think there were times when you could see he felt bad because he didn't have a father, but he never actually talked about that. Lee didn't talk too much, even when we were at Beauregard together.

Mr. Jenner. Did Lee ever come over to your house?

Mr. Voebel. I don't think so; no; he never did. Now, I can't say for sure, but I don't think he did.

Mr. Jenner. Did you boys ever have any common athletic interest?

Mr. Voebel. Not that I know of.

Mr. Jenner. Were you active in sports?

Mr. Voebel. Just in intramurals.

Mr. Jenner. Did he play any intramurals?

Mr. Voebel. I don't know. I wasn't in the same gym class with him, so I can't say for certain on that. I don't know. He must have. I think everybody had to play some intramural sports.

Mr. Jenner. Did you have any impression as to whether he had a feeling that there were things that should have been accorded him by way of possession or attainment of worldly goods, of which he had been deprived because his father had predeceased him?

Mr. Voebel. Did he have a feeling of that at that time?

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mr. Voebel. You see, he was 14 years old, and I just don't think those thoughts would have occurred to him at such a young age, any more than it would have to me. We were just boys, and we were having a fairly good time, as all boys our12 age seemed to do. We would play darts and play pool, and do things like that which didn't cost a lot or anything.

Mr. Jenner. Well, I mean, did he say anything that would have given you that impression?

Mr. Voebel. In fact, I am afraid that some of these impressions that I am giving you may have been developed later, since this assassination occurred. I don't mean that I had all of these impressions back when we were in Beauregard together.

Mr. Jenner. I understand that, but the Commission is interested in the impression you had then of Lee and the impressions you have now as compared to then. We are trying to get the complete background of this man in order to possibly arrive at the motive for this entire tragedy.

Mr. Voebel. It's hard to get what I was thinking of then, and how I think now and separate the two; that's what I mean, because, of course, at that time nothing like this had happened, and I didn't have in mind trying to analyze Lee's personality or anything. You just don't go out looking for something like that unless you have a reason.

Mr. Jenner. You heard the rumor, or read about them at any rate, that Lee Oswald was studying communism when he was 14 years of age, did you not?

Mr. Voebel. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Did you see any evidence of that when you were going around and associating with Lee Oswald?

Mr. Voebel. No; I didn't.

Mr. Jenner. Did you put any credence in that?

Mr. Voebel. No; none whatever. As far as I know, I was the only one that would enter his home, around that age, so I would be the only one to know, and I can say for certain that the only things Lee would be reading when I would be at his home would be comic books and the normal things that kids read.

Mr. Jenner. Were you a voracious reader in those days?

Mr. Voebel. No.

Mr. Jenner. What do you say as to Lee Oswald, if you know?

Mr. Voebel. I really can't say for sure, but he did impress me, in the time that I knew him and associated with him, that he wasn't a great reader. We liked to fool around more than we liked to go to school, I guess you would say.

Mr. Jenner. You would not consider that Lee was a good reader?

Mr. Voebel. No; I wouldn't. I know my studies always came hard to me, even music when I first started with it.

Mr. Jenner. Are you still interested in music?

Mr. Voebel. Yes; I still play music.

Mr. Jenner. Would you say, in looking back to your acquaintance with Lee, that he had a normal curiosity about things, the normal curiosity of a young man of 13, 14, 15, or 16 years old?

Mr. Voebel. I would say that he had a normal curiosity, if I understand then what you mean by that. It's just that he didn't seem to be able to mix with people; that's all.

Mr. Jenner. Do you think that's a basic personality characteristic that has remained in your mind all these years?

Mr. Voebel. Right. It seems to me like he did like things and wanted to do things, but he just couldn't get himself to get with people, you see, and you just can't do too much by yourself. To me, I think that maybe his whole downfall was maybe a lack of communication with people. Of course, I don't know the reason. I am not a psychologist. I can't tell you why, but somehow I have that feeling because I knew Lee, and I knew how he didn't like to mix with people.

Mr. Jenner. I gather from this discussion with you that, up until this horrible tragedy happened, you had at least a favorable impression of Lee, and even though your opinion of his personality and attitude and behavior might have changed since you learned of this tragedy and since his death, you at least, up until that time, had a good opinion of him; is that right?

Mr. Jenner. Right.

Mr. Jenner. You think he was a normal boy, at least in most respects, and he was not what we have referred to as a roustabout or a member of a gang at school, or anything like that?

13 Mr. Voebel. That's right.

Mr. Jenner. While you were going to Beauregard?

Mr. Voebel. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. But he did have trouble making friends at Beauregard; right?

Mr. Voebel. Well, to tell you the truth, Lee didn't go out and look for friends. He didn't seem to care about having friends. He had a few friends, but I think that was the way he wanted it. At least, that seems to be the way he was best able to cope with things, to just more or less be by himself and go and come as he wanted to.

Mr. Jenner. And you don't think Lee was an outstanding student in his studies at Beauregard? You think he was more or less average; is that right?

Mr. Voebel. Yes; he was just an average student.

Mr. Jenner. How was his attendance at school? Did he miss many days; do you know?

Mr. Voebel. No; I don't think he missed much schooling. I think his attendance was pretty good.

Mr. Jenner. Did you boys ever discuss the Marines?

Mr. Voebel. No; I was not much on the Marines.

Mr. Jenner. Well, my question was did you talk about this subject with Lee?

Mr. Voebel. No; we didn't discuss that.

Mr. Jenner. Did he ever talk about his brothers?

Mr. Voebel. No. I think that he mentioned he had one or two, but there was never any talk about them. I don't know anything about his brothers—I mean what they do, how they are, and what their life is. I have no impression of that whatsoever.

Mr. Jenner. Did you ever have the impression that he probably received his just dues in the world up to that point?

Mr. Voebel. I think I made a statement to that effect, but I can't really say for sure. Maybe it was later that I got that impression. That's hard to pinpoint right now, in looking back at all this.

Mr. Jenner. But did you have such an impression at that time?

Mr. Voebel. No; I had no impression like that at that time. Like I said, I wasn't looking for stuff like that.

Mr. Jenner. Well, sometimes you don't look for that sort of thing because you have a previous impression; isn't that true?

Mr. Voebel. Yes; that's true, but I don't think I had that impression at that time. I'll say this: most of the things about Lee I liked. I think I might have made a statement like that, about him being bitter toward the world and everything, but of course, that would have been my opinion since this happened. I wasn't talking then about when we were going to Beauregard, to the same school.

Mr. Jenner. Do you remember making a statement to the FBI that in your opinion Oswald was bitter since his father died when he was very young, and that he thought that he had had a raw deal out of life?

Mr. Voebel. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Do you remember that statement?

Mr. Voebel. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Do you still carry that opinion, and hold it?

Mr. Voebel. Like I say now, I think this opinion was formed later.

Mr. Jenner. And you don't think you had those impressions then?

Mr. Voebel. No; I didn't; not back in those days. I formed that later.

Mr. Jenner. What was that embitterment directed toward?

Mr. Voebel. Toward authority, I would say. He didn't like authority.

Mr. Jenner. You noticed that at that time, did you?

Mr. Voebel. I think so. He didn't seem to like to be told what to do, or made to do something.

Mr. Jenner. Is there a Civil Air Patrol unit here?

Mr. Voebel. Yes; I think they have two.

Mr. Jenner. Two?

Mr. Voebel. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Were there two here at that time?

Mr. Voebel. Yes.

14 Mr. Jenner. Did you and Lee have any interest in the Civil Air Patrol?

Mr. Voebel. Yes; I think I got him interested in it. We got to talking about it and I told him as much as I knew about it, and I think he attended maybe one or two meetings, and I think he even subsequently bought a uniform, and he attended at least one meeting that I remember, in that uniform, but after that he didn't show up again.

Mr. Jenner. He just attended two meetings of the CAP?

Mr. Voebel. Two or three meetings, I would say.

Mr. Jenner. And that's all he attended?

Mr. Voebel. Yes. He lost interest after that, I think.

Mr. Jenner. Who was the majordomo of the CAP unit that you attended?

Mr. Voebel. I think it was Captain Ferrie. I think he was there when Lee attended one of these meetings, but I'm not sure of that. Now that I think of it, I don't think Captain Ferrie was there at that time, but he might have been. That isn't too clear to me.

Mr. Jenner. Lee did buy a uniform to attend these CAP meetings and join the unit?

Mr. Voebel. Yes; he bought a uniform and everything, and he seemed to be very interested at the outset. He even got a paper route, I think it was, or something, to get enough money together to buy the uniform; he was that interested, and that's why I thought it strange when he didn't attend any more meetings.

Mr. Jenner. You thought that was strange?

Mr. Voebel. Yes. After all this happened, and, of course, this is my opinion now, I guess—not then, but I think now maybe he liked the uniform to wear more than he did like going to the school, with those classes that we had.

Mr. Jenner. You had classes at these meetings of the CAP unit?

Mr. Voebel. Oh, yes; we had classes, and maybe that was the thing that Lee didn't care for, because after those couple of meetings he just didn't show up any more.

Mr. Jenner. Did these classes at the CAP unit that you attended require some study?

Mr. Voebel. Yes; they did.

Mr. Jenner. Did Lee ever talk to you about himself and his history, of his earlier life?

Mr. Voebel. His "history"?

Mr. Jenner. Yes; his background—anything about his family before he ever met you?

Mr. Voebel. Well, he mentioned the fact about his father dying, but he didn't talk about much else; I mean about when he was younger, or anything like that. Maybe he might have mentioned about coming here from Texas, and things like that, you know, at different times, but I don't recall all of that now. I got the impression somewhere that he wasn't born here, and I got the impression that he was from Texas at that time, but, of course, that wasn't correct, as I learned after all this happened. But, I mean, we didn't sit around talking about things like that. We were more interested, I guess, in things at school and things that were going around, more up to date, I guess you would say.

Mr. Jenner. Did he talk to you at all about his life in Texas, or to anyone in your presence, that you recall?

Mr. Voebel. No. I mean, he might have mentioned it at different times, just as a passing remark, or something. You know how that is, but if he did it has just slipped my mind, because it wasn't anything that would impress me so that I would remember it.

Mr. Jenner. Did you attend these CAP meetings once a week or twice a week, or how often?

Mr. Voebel. Twice a week, and now that I think of it, Lee might have actually attended two or three meetings. It seems like he maybe attended two or three of them, but anyway he quit then, all of a sudden. He just quit coming, so I figured he had lost interest in the whole thing.

Mr. Jenner. Do you have any idea what made him quit attending those classes?

Mr. Voebel. Well, as I remember, we were having classes then on the15 weather, and that can be a drab subject, although it is essential, but maybe that's why he quit coming; I don't know.

Mr. Jenner. Was this CAP unit coeducational?

Mr. Voebel. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Because sometimes that can stimulate your interest too, isn't that right?

Mr. Voebel. Well, to tell you the truth, no. I had no girl friend out there at that time. I had a girl at the school, but that was it.

Mr. Jenner. But there were girls out at this unit, attending these classes?

Mr. Voebel. Yes; but they were kept pretty well separated from us. They might have been in the classes, but the girls out there didn't interest me.

Mr. Jenner. Did they interest Lee?

Mr. Voebel. No; I don't think so. He wasn't very interested in girls.

Mr. Jenner. He was not?

Mr. Voebel. No. At least it didn't impress me that he was. He didn't show any inclination toward girls at all, that I could see.

Mr. Jenner. Did he have any sex deviation of any kind?

Mr. Voebel. None whatever.

Mr. Jenner. From your experience, he seemed to be perfectly normal in that respect?

Mr. Voebel. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. He might have been interested in girls, but he just wasn't pushing it at that time if he was, is that about it?

Mr. Voebel. I think he was more bashful about girls than anything else. I think that was probably it.

Mr. Jenner. Is there anything that you can think of from your acquaintance with Lee, from what you knew about him then, that you could tell us that would be helpful to the Commission, aside from what I have asked you?

Mr. Voebel. No; I can't think of anything else.

Mr. Jenner. Now, in taking these depositions, you have the privilege of reading and signing your deposition, or you can waive that privilege and let the reporter transcribe the deposition, and it will be sent on to Washington. However, if you want to read and sign it, it will be transcribed, and the U.S. attorney will contact you and let you know when you may come in and read and sign it. What is your preference in that regard?

Mr. Voebel. Well, I don't have to read it and sign it. I have just told you what I know about it.

Mr. Jenner. You prefer to waive that then?

Mr. Voebel. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. All right. Thank you for coming in.

TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM E. WULF

The testimony of William E. Wulf was taken on April 7–8, 1964, at the Old Civil Courts Building, Royal and Conti Streets, New Orleans, La., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

William B. Wulf, having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows:

Mr. Liebeler. Mr. Wulf, my name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am a member of the legal staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination of President Kennedy. Staff members have been authorized to take the testimony of witnesses by the Commission pursuant to authority granted to the Commission by Executive Order No. 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137.

I understand that Mr. Rankin wrote to you last week——

Mr. Wulf. Correct.

Mr. Liebeler. Advising you that I would be in touch with you——

Mr. Wulf. Right.

16 Mr. Liebeler. With respect to the taking of your testimony, and I understand that he enclosed with his letter copies of the Executive order and the joint resolution to which I have just referred, as well as a copy of the rules of procedure relating to the taking of testimony.

Mr. Wulf. Correct.

Mr. Liebeler. You did receive the letter, et cetera?

Mr. Wulf. Correct.

Mr. Liebeler. We want to inquire of you concerning possible knowledge that you have of Lee Harvey Oswald during the time that he lived in New Orleans during the period 1954–55. Before we get into the details of that, however, would you state your full name for the record.

Mr. Wulf. My name is William Eugene Wulf. No junior.

Mr. Liebeler. What is your address?

Mr. Wulf. 2107 Annunciation Street, this city.

Mr. Liebeler. Where and when were you born, Mr. Wulf?

Mr. Wulf. I was born in New Orleans, September 22, 1939.

Mr. Liebeler. Are you presently employed?

Mr. Wulf. No. I am a student at Louisiana State University at New Orleans.

Mr. Liebeler. What are you majoring in?

Mr. Wulf. History.

Mr. Liebeler. How long have you been attending LSU?

Mr. Wulf. Four and a half years. I am a senior at this time.

Mr. Liebeler. You obtained your primary education and secondary education here in New Orleans?

Mr. Wulf. That is correct.

Mr. Liebeler. Where did you obtain that education, what schools?

Mr. Wulf. My primary education was obtained, up until the seventh grade, at Redemptorist Grammar School. For high school I attended De La Salle High School in 1956, and in 1958 and 1959 I attended Cor Jesu High School in New Orleans and graduated there in 1959.

Mr. Liebeler. And then from there you went to LSU?

Mr. Wulf. LSU, right.

Mr. Liebeler. Have you been in the Army or any branch of the military service?

Mr. Wulf. No. I am exempted at this time.

Mr. Liebeler. The Commission has received information to the effect that you were the President of the New Orleans Amateur Astronomy Association——

Mr. Wulf. That is correct.

Mr. Liebeler. Sometime during the year 1955. Is that correct?

Mr. Wulf. That is correct.

Mr. Liebeler. What is the New Orleans Amateur Astronomy Association, or what was it at that time?

Mr. Wulf. It was at that time an organization of mainly high school students in the city, mainly at De La Salle at that time, interested in astronomy, who owned telescopes, did observation, etc.

Mr. Liebeler. Is the group still active?

Mr. Wulf. No. We are still listed as active in the membership rolls of the national association, but we are not active due to the fact that most of the members are out of town, either in the military or in college.

Mr. Liebeler. In connection with your activities in the New Orleans Amateur Astronomy Association, did there ever come a time when you were contacted by or met a person who you either now believe or know to be Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. Wulf. I believe it was. The one person who could have confirmed this in my behalf was Mr. McBride, P. E. McBride, who is in Florida at this time.

Mr. Liebeler. That is Palmer McBride?

Mr. Wulf. Right. But I had met Oswald through McBride. He contacted me on getting into the Astronomy Club at that time, and it was—I had originally believed it was 1953, but on recapitulating the time and all, probably it was September or August in 1955.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you remember how Oswald got in touch with you?

Mr. Wulf. Not exactly. It was either one of two ways. I believe he had17 talked to McBride or McBride had talked to him during the time they were working together at Pfisterer's Dental Laboratory, and I believe he got in touch with me on the telephone about getting into the group and I told him—he asked me could he come over to the house one time, and I believe he soon did. I don't remember the time that elapsed between what I believe was the phone call and then the actual visit.

Mr. Liebeler. This fellow that called you and then came over to your house did work at Pfisterer's Dental Laboratory? Is that correct?

Mr. Wulf. Most definitely; yes. That is what gave me reason to associate Oswald with this particular person.

Mr. Liebeler. This association was made by you at some time subsequent to the assassination. Is that correct?

Mr. Wulf. Yes; subsequent. I believe it was either the Saturday night following the assassination or Sunday morning before I got the call from the Federal Bureau of Investigation.

Mr. Liebeler. You had read in the paper that Lee Oswald had been employed while living here in New Orleans by Pfisterer's Dental Laboratory, and then you associated Oswald——

Mr. Wulf. No; not actually. I had remembered he had lived in New Orleans, and then I tended to associate the name too and the picture, and then I subsequently found out—I confirmed it when I asked the FBI agent did this particular person at one time work for Pfisterer's, and he said he believed he did, and that to me confirmed it was the same person.

Mr. Liebeler. So you had already associated in your mind the name Lee Oswald with this fellow that called you, and also the pictures that you saw in the paper?

Mr. Wulf. Yes.

Mr. Liebeler. And then as a result of that association, you asked the FBI whether this man had been employed by Pfisterer's?

Mr. Wulf. That is correct. One other thing made me come to the association, other than—I must stipulate at this time that when I had met him he spoke of communism and communistic association that he would like to achieve, and this also aided in this conclusion that I came to.

Mr. Liebeler. Now how did it come to be, if you know, that the FBI interviewed you?

Mr. Wulf. I have no idea.

Mr. Liebeler. You did not contact the FBI?

Mr. Wulf. No; I did not, because I was not absolutely sure, and it was a Sunday, either a Saturday night or Sunday, and during the chaos on the situation, and I believe I was personally affected by it as everyone else was personally affected by it, and I really did not think that the little knowledge I had would be important. I was even surprised that I got your letter from the Commission.

Mr. Liebeler. The agent that interviewed you didn't indicate in any way as to how they had been led to you?

Mr. Wulf. In no way whatsoever. As far as I know, the only person that knew that I had met Oswald, and that it was Oswald, was Palmer McBride, so I concluded that he probably got in touch with the FBI on the subject, or someone got in touch with them, and then that is how they got this particular knowledge.

Mr. Liebeler. When did you first make McBride's acquaintance? Do you remember?

Mr. Wulf. Yes. I will have to clarify that. I can get the records from the Astronomy Club, but I believe it was 1954—that is a rough date—probably towards the end, probably—let's see—I am trying to associate it with the Astronomy Club dates—towards the end of the school year 1954–55, so that would probably be in—oh, March and April, around that.

Mr. Liebeler. Of 1955?

Mr. Wulf. Of 1955, yes. It is sketchy. I really cannot say for sure. I could probably get it from the Astronomy Club's records, but——

Mr. Liebeler. The occasion of your first meeting was that he came to join the Astronomy Association——

Mr. Wulf. That is correct.

18 Mr. Liebeler. With McBride. Did become closely acquainted with McBride and become a friend of his after that?

Mr. Wulf. Oh, yes. I still, up until about 9 months ago kept in contact with him, and I still know of his whereabouts, and when he comes to the city I still see him.

Mr. Liebeler. McBride at that time was working at Pfisterer's Dental Laboratory? Is that right?

Mr. Wulf. Yes, sir. I believe he was a delivery boy or a runner. I don't know the exact title of his position.

Mr. Liebeler. Have you ever spoken with McBride about Lee Oswald?

Mr. Wulf. Only at the time that—two occasions or possibly three—I think it was two occasions that I met Oswald, and I got some of Oswald's beliefs, and I told—McBride had always told me that he wanted to get into the military service as a career, especially rocket engineering and rocketry—like we all were nuts on rocketry at the time—and I told him, I said, "This boy Oswald, if you associated with him, could be construed as a security risk, and especially if you want to get into a job position where the information you know could be of a security nature or of a type that could be of a security risk nature."

Mr. Liebeler. You told that to McBride some time back in 1955? Is that correct?

Mr. Wulf. Yes.

Mr. Liebeler. What led you to make that statement to McBride?

Mr. Wulf. I made that statement to McBride after my second meeting with Oswald when we got into a discussion—I being a history major and always been interested in history, some way or another we got around to communism. I think Oswald brought it up, because he was reading some of my books in my library, and he started expounding the Communist doctrine and saying that he was highly interested in communism, that communism was the only way of life for the worker, et cetera, and then came out with the statement that he was looking for a Communist cell in town to join but he couldn't find any. He was a little dismayed at this, and he said that he couldn't find any that would show any interest in him as a Communist, and subsequently, after this conversation, my father came in and we were kind of arguing back and forth about the situation, and my father came in the room, heard what we were arguing on communism, and that this boy was loud-mouthed, boisterous, and my father asked him to leave the house and politely put him out of the house, and that is the last I have seen or spoken with Oswald.

Mr. Liebeler. Now you indicated that your argument was rather loud and boisterous?

Mr. Wulf. Yes.

Mr. Liebeler. Did Oswald generally impress you as a loud or boisterous person?

Mr. Wulf. Well, he impressed me as a boy who could get violent over communism, who, if you did not agree with his belief, he would argue with you violently over it. This, as you know, was the period right before he moved, I believe, to Dallas. I did hear that he had moved to Dallas. I got that from McBride. And he struck me as a very boisterous boy and very determined in his way about communism.

Mr. Liebeler. Did he strike you as boisterous in any other respect, or strongheaded about other things?

Mr. Wulf. Generally a strongheaded boy that knew his own mind, thought he knew his own mind, and would do his own will. He wanted his way, in other words.

Mr. Liebeler. Then there never was any question of physical——

Mr. Wulf. No.

Mr. Liebeler. Contact over this thing?

Mr. Wulf. No, no.

Mr. Liebeler. It was just a strongly presented argument?

Mr. Wulf. No. My father just took him by the arm, and when he started hollering about communism and all, and my father had gone through Communist affairs in Germany in the 1920's, and did not agree with him violently, and he asked him to leave the house.

19 Mr. Liebeler. Is your father a native of Germany?

Mr. Wulf. Hamburg.

Mr. Liebeler. And he had been involved in some political activities with or opposed to the Communists?

Mr. Wulf. Not that I know of. What I mean, he came back from Germany following the war, 1919–20, when it was all upheaval. The Democratic Party was fighting the Communist wing and all. He remembered that and he just—well, as most Germans, a lot of Germans, do, they just don't like Communists.

Mr. Liebeler. Can you remember anything about the details of your first meeting with Lee Oswald?

Mr. Wulf. Very little. If I remember correctly, the main thing was that he asked—we talked about astronomy, and I drew from that, from the conversation, that he knew very little about astronomy, and it struck me that he wanted to join the group, because I expressed to him at the time that anyone with a little knowledge of astronomy was hampered in the group and mostly everybody in the group knew astronomy and we were not very much interested in teaching some fledgling all this data we had already gone through over the years, and he would actually be hampered in belonging to the group, and I actually discouraged him from joining the group for that reason. That is all I can remember of the first contact, because it was kind of late, it was probably 2 or 3 o'clock in the morning.

Mr. Liebeler. This was at a meeting of the association?

Mr. Wulf. No; this was at my home. McBride had brought him to my house. It must have been 10 o'clock at night or 11 o'clock at night, something like that, and we got into a conversation on astronomy in general and just a general topical conversation as far as I can remember. It is somewhat hard to remember, you know, after all these years.

Mr. Liebeler. There wasn't any discussion of politics or economics at that time?

Mr. Wulf. Not at that time; no.

Mr. Liebeler. Now can you remember anything else about the second meeting with Lee Oswald that you haven't already told us?

Mr. Wulf. Not specifically. All I can repeat is that we discussed communism in general and that Oswald showed himself to be a self-made Communist. I don't think anybody got to him, if you want to put it that way. He just learned it on his own. At that time I knew very little about communism, and he was just—actually militant on the idea, and I can repeat he expressed his belief that he could be a good Communist, he could help the Communist Party out, if he could find the Communist Party to join it, and at that time he expressed that he couldn't and——

Mr. Liebeler. Did he indicate in any way that he had actually tried to find a Communist organization?

Mr. Wulf. Definitely. That is one thing that made me associate the name Oswald with this particular person, that he definitely was looking for a Communist Party to join and he was very disgusted because he couldn't——

Mr. Liebeler. Couldn't find one?

Mr. Wulf. Right.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you know whether Oswald ever discussed matters such as this with McBride?

Mr. Wulf. Now this would be hearsay. Yes; I believe he had. McBride and I had discussed Oswald a few times between the second visit when we threw him out of the house or asked him to leave and his subsequent leaving for Dallas. I continually tried to get McBride to stop associating with Oswald, and he did actually, as far as I know, except for, you know, working hours.

Mr. Liebeler. And McBride told you that Oswald had also discussed communism with him?

Mr. Wulf. Oh, yes, yes; that he discussed it constantly when they were on the job and, you know, delivering dentures, and in their social association. It might be of importance to point out that both boys struck me as lonely boys. McBride was working at that time, he had quit school and was working and going to a correspondence school, and I think they tended to associate because20 of that reason, because they were just plain lonely, not knowing too many people.

Mr. Liebeler. This was true, in your opinion, both of Oswald and McBride? Is that correct?

Mr. Wulf. On this particular point, yes; that they were both—well, for one thing, I think that would lead a boy to get the type of job that they held at the time. I think most of the boys who held that job were that type of boy who were fighting education, except for McBride—he wasn't fighting education, because he was fighting the need for more money. You know, a young boy like that, his family was quite large and not of very great income, and I think this made Oswald and McBride associate probably with each other, but I do know that he told me after this second visit that—we discussed Oswald, and I discussed Oswald specifically as a security risk. The reason why I was knowledgeable on this was that my father was in the Merchant Marine and on a Navy Reserve ship that did require some security clearance, and I was quite conscious of it, and also during the war, because we were German and I was quite conscious of security matters and all.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you know whether McBride ever expressed any interest in communism or ever expressed any interest in Communist organizations?

Mr. Wulf. Not really; no, no. As far as I know, definitely not. He was strong-willed, but never, as far as I know, ever expressed really any belief in communism.

Mr. Liebeler. (Exhibiting photograph to witness) I want to show you two pictures which have previously been marked "Pizzo Exhibits 453-A and 453-B."

Mr. Wulf. Right.

Mr. Liebeler. I ask you if you recognize any of the individuals in those pictures?

Mr. Wulf. Well, yes; Oswald marked "1" on the top picture, "Pizzo 453-B," and, of course, Oswald again marked with the "X" in green on "Pizzo 453-A."

Mr. Liebeler. You recognize that as Oswald?

Mr. Wulf. Yes. That is one of the things. I saw these films on TV and I subsequently saw them at the station. That is Oswald, as far as I can associate.

Mr. Liebeler. When you say "these films," you are inferring that these pictures that I have shown you are still photos taken out of——

Mr. Wulf. Yes. These are 16 mm. prints—I can tell by the grain—and they are either 16 mm. or 32 mm., probably 16 mm. prints, and these are the ones, as far as I know, that WDSU had. I don't believe that is what you want though. That is the only one I can associate on there. I do not associate the other man marked——

Mr. Liebeler. Do you identify this man as Oswald based on your observation of him at the times you have mentioned, and not from having seen his pictures at other places in the newspaper?

Mr. Wulf. No; I base that picture on—when I first saw those films originally, when it was originally shown on TV, I had a slight inkling that it was the same person, as far as I know. I mean, like I said, it was many years ago, it was—oh, 8 years ago, 8 or 9 years ago. He was younger, he was a little bit heavier then, in the face especially, but he seems to me to be the same person.

Mr. Liebeler. And that identification on your part is reinforced by the logical steps that——

Mr. Wulf. Right, the logical association. Yes; I admit this.

Mr. Liebeler. And that logical association is the association that we have already described throughout this record?

Mr. Wulf. Right, right; and also the time factor when he was in New Orleans, the association with Pfisterer's Laboratory, and that I know for a fact that in October of that year or early in the winter of that year that he did move to Dallas, because McBride told me that his mother and he had moved to Dallas. Also I knew a little bit about him. McBride had discussed with me a little of his family situation. I had asked him about it because of his attitudes and such.

Mr. Liebeler. How do you mean "his family situation"? You mean his mother?

21 Mr. Wulf. Yes; I asked McBride specifically how come this boy was like this, mixed up and all, and he said he lived with his mother—this is hearsay, of course, through McBride—that his mother didn't associate with him too much and the boy was pretty much on his own and a loner as such.

Mr. Liebeler. And this was a discussion that you had with McBride in 1955–56?

Mr. Wulf. Right, 1955.

Mr. Liebeler. Have you talked to McBride about this thing since the assassination?

Mr. Wulf. No, I have not. I have only corresponded with McBride once, and that was about a month ago. I sent him an amateur radiogram requesting the address of a mutual friend in New York, but I got no answer, and we were wondering where he is.

Mr. Liebeler. I can't think of any other questions at this point. If you can think of anything else that you know about that you would like to add or that you think would be helpful to the Commission, I would appreciate it if you would add it.

Mr. Wulf. Not that I know of. The only thing I can—I don't know how many people have told you of this period of his life—I amplify that at this time Oswald was definitely Communist-minded, he was violently for communism, and this is what struck me as so odd for a boy so young at the time. I believe we were both 16, and he was quite violent for communism. His beliefs seemed to be warped but strong, and one thing that did hit me, he seemed—I told this to McBride at the time—he seemed to me a boy that was looking for something to belong to. I don't think anybody was looking for him to belong to them, and it may have been a problem, but he was definitely looking for something to associate himself with. He had very little self-identification, and at the time he hit me as somebody who was looking for identification, and he just happened, I guess, to latch on to this particular area to become identified with. That is about all I know of him at that time, and following that period, after he moved from New Orleans and went to Dallas, I knew nothing of him until I saw what I thought was him at the time, but I was not sure, the films that you showed me.

Mr. Liebeler. I don't have any other questions at this point. I want to thank you very much for coming in and cooperating with us to the extent that you have. The Commission appreciates it very much.

Mr. Wulf. That is quite all right. I am glad we could help.

TESTIMONY OF MRS. BENNIERITA SMITH

The testimony of Mrs. Bennierita Smith was taken on April 7–8, 1964, at the Old Civil Courts Building, Royal and Conti Streets, New Orleans, La., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mrs. Bennierita Smith, having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows:

Mr. Liebeler. Mrs. Smith, my name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am a member of the legal staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination of President Kennedy. Staff members have been authorized to take the testimony of witnesses by the Commission pursuant to the authority granted to the Commission by Executive Order No. 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137.

I understand that Mr. Rankin wrote to you last week indicating that I would be in touch with you concerning your testimony.

Mrs. Smith. Yes; he did.

Mr. Liebeler. And that he enclosed with his letter a copy of the Executive order and of the resolution to which I have just referred, as well as a copy of the rules of procedure adopted by the Commission concerning the taking of22 testimony of witnesses. Did you receive Mr. Rankin's letter and those documents?

Mrs. Smith. Yes; I did.

Mr. Liebeler. One of the areas of inquiry of the Commission relates to the background and possible motive of Lee Harvey Oswald, the alleged assassin of the President. We understand that you knew Lee Oswald at some point while he was living here in New Orleans. Before we get into the details of that, however, I would like to have you state your name for the record, if you will.

Mrs. Smith. Bennierita Smith.

Mr. Liebeler. You are married? Is that correct?

Mrs. Smith. Yes, sir.

Mr. Liebeler. What was your name before you were married?

Mrs. Smith. Sparacio. My maiden name?

Mr. Liebeler. Yes.

Mrs. Smith. Sparacio, S-p-a-r-a-c-i-o.

Mr. Liebeler. Where do you live?

Mrs. Smith. 3522 Delambert in Chalmette.

Mr. Liebeler. Where and when were you born?

Mrs. Smith. I was born in New Orleans the 20th of January 1940.

Mr. Liebeler. Would you outline for us your educational background, please.

Mrs. Smith. Starting from kindergarten?

Mr. Liebeler. Yes.

Mrs. Smith. Well, I went to St. Dominic's. That is on Harrison Avenue in Lakeview. Then I went—it was either the third or fourth grade I transferred to Lakeview School, and then when I finished Lakeview School I went on to Beauregard, and from there to Warren Easton, and that is all the schooling I have had.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you graduate from Warren Easton High School?

Mrs. Smith. Yes, sir.

Mr. Liebeler. When did you graduate?

Mrs. Smith. 1958.

Mr. Liebeler. Am I correct in understanding that you attended Beauregard Junior High School at the same time that Lee Oswald did?

Mrs. Smith. Yes, sir.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you know Lee Oswald at the time you both attended Beauregard Junior High School?

Mrs. Smith. Well, I knew him from seeing him walk around school, and well, I guess I could remember him so much because he was always getting in fights with people, but as far as really knowing him well outside of school, you know, seeing him, I don't.

Mr. Liebeler. Well, now you mentioned that he was always getting in fights?

Mrs. Smith. Yes.

Mr. Liebeler. Will you tell us what you know about that?

Mrs. Smith. One fight really impressed me, I guess because there was this boy—he wasn't going to Beauregard, this boy he had the fight with, and he was a little guy. I think his name was Robin Riley. He hit Lee, and his tooth came through his lip.

Mr. Liebeler. Through the upper part of his lip?

Mrs. Smith. Oh, gee, I don't know whether it was a bottom——

Mr. Liebeler. But it actually tore the lip?

Mrs. Smith. Yes; it actually tore the lip, and I remember—what is that boy's name?—the blond fellow that was on television that knew him so well?

Mr. Liebeler. Are you thinking of Edward Voebel?

Mrs. Smith. That is him.

Mr. Liebeler. V-o-e-b-e-l?

Mrs. Smith. He took him back in school, and I guess they kind of patched his lip up, but he was—he more or less kept to himself, he didn't mix with the other kids in school other than Voebel. He is the only one I remember. And they had this little boy—I think it was Bobby Newman—he used to take around with, but I don't remember too much about him either. I can remember he was little, he was short.

Mr. Liebeler. Who was?

23 Mrs. Smith. Bobby Newman.

Mr. Liebeler. Bobby Newman?

Mrs. Smith. But he was, I guess, the studious type. Well, it seemed to me. He was always studying, you know, reading books, and that is as far as—I don't know what his grades were, but as far as him mixing with other people, he didn't. You know, like when you go to school, more or less everybody has their own group. Well, there wasn't anybody he hung around with, except, like I said, Edward Voebel.

Mr. Liebeler. How well do you know Mr. Voebel?

Mrs. Smith. Not well at all, I mean just from seeing him in school. I knew his parents had owned the Quality Florists on Canal Street. Well, I knew his sisters.

Mr. Liebeler. You knew Voebel's sister?

Mrs. Smith. Yes; he has got two, they are twins, Doris—and they call the other one Teddy. I don't know what her real name was.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you ever hear what this fight was all about, the one you described in which Oswald had his lip cut?

Mrs. Smith. No; I really didn't. I just saw people standing around and knew there was a fight, and, you know, went over to see.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you get the impression that Oswald started the fight or that the other guy started the fight?

Mrs. Smith. I really don't know. I didn't know what happened. Well, I know this boy was, I guess, a kind of a smart alec, this guy he had the fight with, this Robin Riley. Well, he was always hanging around school but he didn't go there, you know, he just——

Mr. Liebeler. Was this Riley boy older, do you know, or about the same age as the rest of the students?

Mrs. Smith. I think he was older, because he had a sister that went to Warren Easton with me and she was older, she was a grade ahead of me, and I am almost sure he was older than her.

Mr. Liebeler. This fellow didn't go to Beauregard Junior High School?

Mrs. Smith. No.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you know if he went to school somewhere else?

Mrs. Smith. No; I sure don't.

Mr. Liebeler. Is that the only fight that you can recall in which Oswald was involved?

Mrs. Smith. That is all.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you see the television program that was played over WDSU shortly after the assassination in which Voebel appeared?

Mrs. Smith. Yes; I did see that. Larry Lala and Bob Jones had come to my house. Well, I knew Larry. He knew I went to Beauregard, and he called me up and asked me if I had remembered Lee Oswald, and when I thought about him, you know, things started coming back. It had been such a long time. And he asked me if they could come over, that they were writing this story on him, and I told him to come over if he wanted but I didn't think I could really help him, because it wasn't anything I knew about him.

Mr. Liebeler. This person that called you was a newspaper reporter?

Mrs. Smith. Well, he works for WWL. He takes the news films for them. And when he came in the house, I thought he would come with a pad and pencil, and he walks in with cameras and lights. He picked up one of my girl friends, he brought her over, and this other girl I went to school with, she was at my house, she had spent the day with me. It just so happened she was there. And then they just asked us questions, but I told Larry about that fight. Well, he had remembered the same incident.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you appear in the television program?

Mrs. Smith. Yes, sir.

Mr. Liebeler. You did?

Mrs. Smith. Yes, sir; the three of us.

Mr. Liebeler. Three of you would be yourself—and what were the names of the other two girls?

Mrs. Smith. Anna Alexander Langlois and Peggy Murphy Zimmerman.

24 Mr. Liebeler. Now these two boys that you mentioned were classmates of yours at Beauregard Junior High School? Is that right?

Mrs. Smith. Larry and Bob?

Mr. Liebeler. Yes.

Mrs. Smith. No; Larry—I met Larry—gee, I don't even remember—I guess maybe at a school dance or something—and I went out with him, and he knew I went to Beauregard, you see. That is why he called me to see if I had remembered Lee, because I guess they were trying to get some—well, more or less a story together.

Mr. Liebeler. What about the other boy?

Mrs. Smith. Bob Jones?

Mr. Liebeler. Yes.

Mrs. Smith. Well, he broadcasts the news.

Mr. Liebeler. He works for the television station?

Mrs. Smith. And he just came. Well, he asked us questions and then we just answered him, but I didn't know him.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you remember what you told him at that time? You mentioned this fight to him?

Mrs. Smith. I mentioned that, and then he just asked us how well we knew him, and we told him we didn't really know him as far as—like we would know him from seeing him walk through the halls at school or in class, but as far as knowing him outside of school, well, we didn't.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you know where he lived?

Mrs. Smith. No; I didn't, not until, well, I read it in the paper.

Mr. Liebeler. Did your other two girl friends remember any more details about Lee Oswald than you did?

Mrs. Smith. No. Bob asked us how he dressed, and we told him, you know, that he always wore these sweater vests—they are more or less in style now, I guess, than they were when we were going to school—it was just like wearing your father's sweater or something, but, you know, maybe he was outstanding in that way. But that is all we told him. My girl friend told him about that, and—I am trying to remember.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you remember that Lee wore the sweater vests, or was that something that one of your girl friends remembered?

Mrs. Smith. Well, she mentioned it, and then, well, we did remember him dressing that way.

Mr. Liebeler. Which one of your girl friends was it mentioned this first?

Mrs. Smith. I think it was Peggy.

Mr. Liebeler. Peggy?

Mrs. Smith. Peggy Zimmerman.

Mr. Liebeler. Was there anything else that the three of you were able to recall about Lee Oswald, either at the time you were questioned by the television people or after that?

Mrs. Smith. No.

Mr. Liebeler. Was this the only fight, the one we talked about? Was this the only fight that any of you had ever remembered Lee Oswald being involved in?

Mrs. Smith. That is the only one I remembered. Somebody had said he was in a fight with Johnny Neumeyer.

Mr. Liebeler. Was that one of your girl friends who mentioned that?

Mrs. Smith. I am not sure if it was them or if it was Anna's brother who told her.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you remember whether Lee Oswald dated any girls at the time he went to Beauregard?

Mrs. Smith. Not that I know of, not in school.

Mr. Liebeler. It was your impression that Lee Oswald didn't have any close associates or close friends while he was at Beauregard, with the possible exception of Mr. Voebel? Is that right?

Mrs. Smith. That is right.

Mr. Liebeler. Now aside from your recollection about Lee's wearing a sweater vest, can you remember anything else about the way he dressed?

Mrs. Smith. He wore levis, I think.

25 Mr. Liebeler. Was that different from what the other students wore?

Mrs. Smith. Yes. Well, they more or less wore slacks, you know, pants or khakis.

Mr. Liebeler. Was Lee ever criticized or given a hard time because of the way he dressed or the way he——

Mrs. Smith. No; not that I remember.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you remember that Lee was ever bullied or pushed around by the other boys for any reason?

Mrs. Smith. No; not that I remember.

Mr. Liebeler. There isn't anything that stands out in your mind about Lee Oswald that really would set him apart from the other students, is there, or——

Mrs. Smith. Well, I can just remember him walking, like down the hall in school, and he would just walk like he was proud, you know, just show his back and—but there isn't anything other than that fight. I think that is what made me remember him the most.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you know whether people thought that he was peculiar or arrogant because of this way in which he carried himself and the way in which he walked?

Mrs. Smith. No. He never did mingle with anyone, you know. I guess they just more or less left him alone, unless if he ever started a fight with them or——

Mr. Liebeler. Did you ever hear of Lee starting a fight with anybody?

Mrs. Smith. No.

Mr. Liebeler. You don't know how this fight——

Mrs. Smith. I don't know how this fight started, I really don't. Like I say, I saw a group of people standing around, and when I went to see, they were fighting, but I really——

Mr. Liebeler. Have you talked to Voebel at all about this?

Mrs. Smith. No, sir; I haven't seen him—gee, I guess since I graduated from Beauregard.

Mr. Liebeler. Now where is Beauregard Junior High School located?

Mrs. Smith. On Canal Street, but I don't know the address. It is near the end of the streetcar line, near the cemeteries, across the street from St. Anthony's Church.

Mr. Liebeler. Is it near the downtown section of Canal Street, or is it out farther?

Mrs. Smith. No; well, it is further down.

Mr. Liebeler. Approximately how far would it be from where we are now?

Mrs. Smith. Oh, it is all the way down at the other end of Canal Street. I mean, you know how it is? The river is down here [indicating]. Well, it is on the other side of town.

Mr. Liebeler. Quite a way from here?

Mrs. Smith. Oh, yes, sir. I mean, you take the streetcar and you ride practically to the end of the line.

Mr. Liebeler. Before you got to Beauregard?

Mrs. Smith. It is about three blocks from the end of the line, the end of the streetcar line.

Mr. Liebeler. So it would be several miles from here, would it not?

Mrs. Smith. Yes, sir; I guess—let's see—it must be about the 4000 or 6000 block, something like that, of Canal Street.

Mr. Liebeler. In the 6000 block?

Mrs. Smith. I think so. I am not sure.

Mr. Liebeler. This is Beauregard we are talking about?

Mrs. Smith. Beauregard; yes.

Mr. Liebeler. Can you tell me the area the people that went to Beauregard Junior High School came from? Was it just the area surrounding the school, or did they come from all parts of New Orleans, or just how did they decide who was to go to that high school?

Mrs. Smith. Each high school has its own district, so that the people that lived in Lakeview went to Beauregard. If you lived in Gentilly, you couldn't go to Beauregard unless you got a permit from the school board.

26 Mr. Liebeler. What kind of neighborhood was it? What kind of a district was it that Beauregard drew its students from back in 1954, and 1955?

Mrs. Smith. Well, it's a nice neighborhood, it still is today.

Mr. Liebeler. Has it changed much since then?

Mrs. Smith. No; I don't think so.

Mr. Liebeler. Would you say that it draws from an upper-middle class or middle-class neighborhood?

Mrs. Smith. Middle-class neighborhood.

Mr. Liebeler. You don't have any idea where Lee Oswald lived during the time that he went to Beauregard, do you?

Mrs. Smith. No; sir.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you ever know that he lived in Exchange Alley?

Mrs. Smith. No, sir; not until I seen it in the paper.

Mr. Liebeler. Off the record a minute.

(Discussion off the record)

Mr. Liebeler. You said that after you graduated from Beauregard Junior High School you went to Warren Easton High School? Is that correct?

Mrs. Smith. Yes, sir.

Mr. Liebeler. Now does Warren Easton High School also draw from a particular district, or is that operated on a different principle than Beauregard?

Mrs. Smith. That draws from a district too.

Mr. Liebeler. And that district included the district encompassed by Beauregard Junior High School?

Mrs. Smith. Yes; and also, well, around Easton.

Mr. Liebeler. It includes other districts aside from the Beauregard Junior High School District, does it not?

Mrs. Smith. Well, all the kids that went to Beauregard automatically went to Easton, of course, unless they moved out of the district, but it drew kids that lived around Easton too. I mean the district widened, it got larger like from Beauregard to Easton, you know.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you know that Lee Oswald attended Warren Easton High School?

Mrs. Smith. I can remember seeing him there. My girl friends didn't, but I remembered seeing him, you know, walking down the hall or walking outside of school.

Mr. Liebeler. But nothing else?

Mrs. Smith. But as far as recalling anything about him at Warren Easton other than that, I don't.

Mr. Liebeler. There wasn't any event that he was involved in that stands out in your mind?

Mrs. Smith. No, sir.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you remember when you saw Lee Oswald at Warren Easton? Was it immediately after you started Warren Easton after graduating from Beauregard Junior High School?

Mrs. Smith. Yes; it was right after we had started at Warren Easton.

Mr. Liebeler. You yourself did graduate from Warren Easton, did you not?

Mrs. Smith. Yes, sir.

Mr. Liebeler. You actually attended Warren Easton for three years? Is that right?

Mrs. Smith. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you remember seeing Lee Oswald over a long period of time at Warren Easton, or was it just for a part?

Mrs. Smith. No; just—I may have just seen him once or twice at the beginning of the school year.

Mr. Liebeler. Did Warren Easton students come from pretty much the same kind of family background or the same kind of economic and social background as the people who went to Beauregard Junior High School?

Mrs. Smith. I think so, but there were a few kids—well, boys—that were——

Mr. Liebeler. Of a somewhat rougher nature, shall we say?

Mrs. Smith. Yes; I wouldn't want to say hoodlums, but they were, you know.

Mr. Liebeler. There were people from a different class or different group of society?

27 Mrs. Smith. There were rumors that some of them took dope. Of course, I don't know how true it is, but that is what they say.

Mr. Liebeler. You never had any knowledge of anything like that or heard any rumors about that at Beauregard, did you?

Mrs. Smith. No; I never have.

Mr. Liebeler. If you can think of anything else about Lee Oswald that I haven't asked you about, we would appreciate it very much if you would set it forth on the record now. Can you think of anything else that we haven't covered?

Mrs. Smith. There isn't anything else I can think of.

Mr. Liebeler. I have no other questions at this point. I do want to thank you for coming down and cooperating with us to the extent that you have, and, on behalf of the Commission I want to thank you very much.

TESTIMONY OF FREDERICK S. O'SULLIVAN

The testimony of Frederick S. O'Sullivan was taken on April 7–8, 1964, at the Old Civil Courts Building, Royal and Conti Streets, New Orleans, La., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Frederick S. O'Sullivan, having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows:

Mr. Liebeler. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am a member of the legal staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination of President Kennedy. Staff members have been authorized to take the testimony of witnesses by the Commission pursuant to authority granted to the Commission by Executive Order No. 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137.

I understand that Mr. Rankin wrote to you last week telling you that I would be in touch with you concerning the taking of your testimony, and that he enclosed with his letter a copy of the Executive order and the joint resolution just referred to, as well as a copy of the rules of procedure of the Commission relating to the taking of testimony of witnesses. Did you receive the letter?

Mr. O'Sullivan. Yes, sir.

Mr. Liebeler. The documents I referred to were enclosed with it; were they not?

Mr. O'Sullivan. Yes, sir.

Mr. Liebeler. One of the things the Commission is interested in is the background of Lee Harvey Oswald, the alleged assassin, to the extent that knowledge of his background can assist the Commission in evaluating Mr. Oswald's possible motive, if it is true, as it was alleged, that he was the assassin. Before we get into the knowledge that you may have of Oswald, would you state your full name for the record.

Mr. O'Sullivan. Frederick Stephen Patrick O'Sullivan.

Mr. Liebeler. What is your address, Mr. O'Sullivan?

Mr. O'Sullivan. 413 Heritage Avenue, Gretna, La.

Mr. Liebeler. You are a member of the New Orleans Police Department, as I understand. Is that correct?

Mr. O'Sullivan. I am.

Mr. Liebeler. You are a detective on the vice squad?

Mr. O'Sullivan. Right.

Mr. Liebeler. How long have you been with the New Orleans Police Department?

Mr. O'Sullivan. Six years.

Mr. Liebeler. You were born here in New Orleans? Is that correct?

Mr. O'Sullivan. I was.

Mr. Liebeler. And how old are you now?

Mr. O'Sullivan. Twenty-six.

28 Mr. Liebeler. I understand that you knew Lee Oswald when he attended a junior high school here in New Orleans. Is that correct?

Mr. O'Sullivan. Yes; Beauregard Junior High.

Mr. Liebeler. Beauregard Junior High?

Mr. O'Sullivan. On Canal Street.

Mr. Liebeler. Your own education included attendance at Beauregard Junior High School?

Mr. O'Sullivan. It did.

Mr. Liebeler. How long did you go to Beauregard?

Mr. O'Sullivan. One year.

Mr. Liebeler. And where did you go prior to that time?

Mr. O'Sullivan. St. Dominic's.

Mr. Liebeler. St. Dominic's?

Mr. O'Sullivan. Elementary school.

Mr. Liebeler. Here in New Orleans?

Mr. O'Sullivan. In Lakeview in New Orleans.

Mr. Liebeler. After you left Beauregard, where did you go?

Mr. O'Sullivan. I went to Warren Easton Senior High School.

Mr. Liebeler. Is that here in New Orleans also?

Mr. O'Sullivan. Yes.

Mr. Liebeler. And did you graduate from Warren Easton High School?

Mr. O'Sullivan. I did.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you attend college at any place?

Mr. O'Sullivan. Yes; I am in college in Loyola right now through a police department scholarship.

Mr. Liebeler. Tell us everything that you can remember about Oswald when you knew him at Beauregard Junior High School, how you met him, what contacts you had with him, just the whole story.

Mr. O'Sullivan. All right. I was a cadet in Civil Air Patrol, and while I was in Beauregard we were having a recruiting drive to get more cadet members in the New Orleans squadron, and there were three fellows at the school that I talked to in particular about joining that. One was Joseph Thompson, one was Edward Voebel—I am not sure how that name is spelled—and Lee Harvey Oswald. My reason for asking Oswald to join was I noticed—we had a drill team, we were real proud of our drill team.

Mr. Liebeler. This was a marching team?

Mr. O'Sullivan. A marching unit; yes, sir, and Oswald carried himself always erect, always gave the impression that he could be marching, that he may be marching, eyes straight ahead, head straight, shoulders back, so he impressed me as the sort of a fellow that would really fit well on the drill team. He seemed like he could—well, he even gave the impression that he would make a pretty good leader if he ever got into the squadron, so with this recruiting drive I asked the three of them to come out to the airport. I explained what we did out there, marching and flying on the weekends and so forth to them at school. Joseph Thompson and Oswald and Voebel all three came out to the airport. Joe Thompson stayed in the squadron, and Oswald came to one or two meetings, possibly three, along with Voebel. However, Voebel then joined the Civil Air Patrol at Moisant Airport, and because he was a closer friend of Oswald, he evidently talked Oswald into coming out to the squadron he had joined.

Mr. Liebeler. At Moisant Field?

Mr. O'Sullivan. At Moisant Airport.

Mr. Liebeler. Right.

Mr. O'Sullivan. Yes. Incidentally, Oswald—I didn't know this until I read it in the paper—lived only a half a block from me for a short time. I lived in Lakeview at 800 French Street, I believe, and he lived either in the 800 or the 700 block of French Street.

Mr. Liebeler. That would have been in 1963 when he came here to New Orleans? Is that correct?

Mr. O'Sullivan. Oh, I didn't live there at that time. No, I moved from French Street around 1957.

29 Mr. Liebeler. Can you remember anything else about Oswald at the time he was in Beauregard Junior High School with you, about his friendships? Did he have many friends at that time, or do you recall?

Mr. O'Sullivan. No; I believe he and I, because of the spelling of our last names, were possibly in the same homeroom in the morning, but I really don't recall anything. I don't recall much about any of the students at Beauregard or at Warren Easton. I sort of—I was an athlete, and we stayed away from the rest of the students. They had a thing that they kept us away from the rest of the students pretty much.

Mr. Liebeler. You say you were an athlete at Beauregard?

Mr. O'Sullivan. Yes, sir.

Mr. Liebeler. What particular sport were you involved in?

Mr. O'Sullivan. Football and track, and the same at Warren Easton.

Mr. Liebeler. Did Oswald, as far as you know, ever have anything to do with sports activities?

Mr. O'Sullivan. No.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you remember whether Oswald and Voebel were close acquaintances at that time, or do you know?

Mr. O'Sullivan. Only in that Voebel left the New Orleans squadron and went out to Moisant and evidently—or I believe he talked Oswald into coming out there with him.

Mr. Liebeler. Now you don't know of your own knowledge whether or not Oswald ever did join the Civil Air Patrol, do you?

Mr. O'Sullivan. No; I don't know that he signed any papers or had uniforms or anything. I know that he came out to New Orleans Airport and attended some of the meetings, but whether he just—you see, a lot of time people would come out and sit in the classes to decide whether they wanted to join or not. We will allow this, hoping to get more cadets. I don't know that he ever signed any papers or joined. You can check with the Louisiana Wing Headquarters and they can give it to you.

Mr. Liebeler. You don't know whether Oswald ever did actually go out to Moisant Field to Civil Air Patrol meetings at that place?

Mr. O'Sullivan. No.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you have rifles as a part of your Civil Air Patrol program? Did you have rifle practice and drill with rifles?

Mr. O'Sullivan. We didn't drill with rifles, but we did belong to the NRA and we did fire rifles on the range, and also when we went to summer camp we would fire on the range.

Mr. Liebeler. NRA is the National Rifle Association? Is that correct?

Mr. O'Sullivan. Correct.

Mr. Liebeler. What kind of rifles did you fire when you went to summer camp?

Mr. O'Sullivan. Now I am getting summer camp mixed up with the National Guard. I believe we fired .22's in the CAP.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you ever observe Oswald engage in rifle practice of any kind in connection with CAP activities?

Mr. O'Sullivan. No, sir.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you know whether or not Oswald ever did engage in any rifle practice in connection with the CAP?

Mr. O'Sullivan. No, sir.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you know David Ferrie, F-e-r-r-i-e?

Mr. O'Sullivan. Yes, sir; I know him.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you know of any connection between Oswald and David Ferrie?

Mr. O'Sullivan. No; I have no personal knowledge of anything.

Mr. Liebeler. Ferrie was involved with the CAP squadron at New Orleans Airport at the time Voebel and Oswald came out to join it? Is that correct?

Mr. O'Sullivan. Ferrie was in charge of the squadron, and then there was a Captain Hinton. Now I was in the squadron for 6 years, so I am not sure who was in charge at what particular time. I am not sure. He could have been. He may have been, but I am not sure. I know that when he left the New Orleans squadron, Ferrie did have something to do with the Moisant30 squadron, so he may have. If he wasn't in charge when Oswald was out at New Orleans Airport, he may have been in charge when he went to Moisant Airport.

Mr. Liebeler. But you don't know of any time that Oswald associated with or knew Ferrie through the Civil Air Patrol?

Mr. O'Sullivan. No; I am not sure of any.

Mr. Liebeler. Now you said that you had no personal knowledge or no direct knowledge of any relationship between Oswald and Ferrie?

Mr. O'Sullivan. No.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you have any information that would lead you to believe that there was a relationship between these two men?

Mr. O'Sullivan. Only that when all of this broke with Oswald, I went through all of the old CAP files that were available, trying to get some information for the Secret Service, the people who had called me up at home, and——

Mr. Liebeler. Where were these files located?

Mr. O'Sullivan. These files are in the possession of one Robert Boylston.

Mr. Liebeler. Who was he?

Mr. O'Sullivan. He was also a member of the CAP at the time we all were, at New Orleans.

Mr. Liebeler. How did the records come to be in his possession?

Mr. O'Sullivan. He is a senior member now. He has maybe recently dropped out, but he was a senior member and these records were just turned over to him in the whole filing cabinet. They are all old records. I am trying to get the thing straight in my mind. Of course, I have been trying to get it straight in my mind, just what I know and what I have heard. It gets kind of confusing when you read so much. Sometimes you remember things that you don't really remember, you know.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you find anything in these files that related to Ferrie or Oswald?

Mr. O'Sullivan. Well, we found papers signed by Ferrie but nothing in relation to Oswald. His name wasn't mentioned in anything at all that we could find, so we assumed at that time that Oswald was in the Moisant squadron. I believe they even had in the paper the dates, and we checked those particular dates and it turned out that Ferrie was in a transition between the New Orleans squadron and the Moisant squadron in these dates, so he could have been involved either way with Oswald. I don't know if he was involved, he could have been.

Mr. Liebeler. But you found nothing in the files?

Mr. O'Sullivan. Nothing concrete.

Mr. Liebeler. That you investigated as to the relation between Oswald and Ferrie?

Mr. O'Sullivan. No.

Mr. Liebeler. Am I correct in understanding that there has been publicity here in the New Orleans area concerning a possible relationship between Oswald and Ferrie?

Mr. O'Sullivan. Yes, sir; I believe Captain Ferrie was arrested. I am sure he was arrested, and I believe it was in connection with this Oswald situation. He was booked at the first district station. I don't know just what he was charged with, I believe just 107, under investigation of whatever it was, I don't know.

Mr. Liebeler. Now you go ahead.

Mr. O'Sullivan. Lieutenant Dwyer, Paul Dwyer, from the New Orleans Police Department, intelligence division, I accompanied him out to New Orleans Airport where we found Dave Ferrie's airplane. We wanted to check it to see if it was flyable, to see possibly whether he had been flying it lately, with the thought that he may have transported Oswald to Dallas. This isn't my thought, this was brought up to me, and we found his plane, but his plane was not in flyable condition. It had flat tires, instruments missing, needed a paint job. We also checked to see if he had rented an aircraft from any of the companies out there, and one company in particular said that they wouldn't rent him an airplane.

Mr. Liebeler. Did they tell you why?

Mr. O'Sullivan. No.

31 Mr. Liebeler. You are a detective on the vice squad? Is that correct?

Mr. O'Sullivan. Yes, sir.

Mr. Liebeler. Are you assigned to a particular aspect of vice activities here in New Orleans?

Mr. O'Sullivan. No, sir; there are only nine of us to cover the whole city. Therefore, we handle any vice, gambling, prostitution, homosexuals, handbooks. Anything that comes under the vice laws, we handle.

Mr. Liebeler. You have never had any contact with Ferrie in connection with your activities on the vice squad? Is that correct?

Mr. O'Sullivan. No; Ferrie lives or he did live in Jefferson Parish. We have no authority in Jefferson Parish. [Deletion.]

Mr. Liebeler. Now see if you can recall or think back to your experiences in the Beauregard Junior High School, and tell us if you can remember anything else or if there is anything else that you want to add what you have already said about your knowledge of Oswald and his activities at the time he was at Beauregard Junior High School.

Mr. O'Sullivan. Well, I have put quite a bit of thought on this ever since it all happened, especially since I have gotten this correspondence relative to what I know about it, and as much as I would like to help you as much as I can, I just can't think of anything else. I don't want to say something I am not sure of. Well, actually, even if I thought of something, I would tell you and tell you I am not sure, but there is nothing else I can think of.

Mr. Liebeler. All right. I have no other questions at this time, and if there is nothing else that you want to add to the record, on behalf of the Commission, I want to thank you very much for your cooperation.

Mr. O'Sullivan. Yes, sir; thank you.

TESTIMONY OF MRS. MILDRED SAWYER

The testimony of Mrs. Mildred Sawyer was taken on April 7–8, 1964, at the Old Civil Courts Building, Royal and Conti Streets, New Orleans, La., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mrs. Mildred Sawyer, having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows:

Mr. Liebeler. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am a member of the legal staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination of President Kennedy. The Commission staff members have been authorized to take the testimony of witnesses by the Commission pursuant to authority to the Commission by Executive Order No. 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137.

I understand that Mr. Rankin wrote to you last week and told you that we would be in touch with you about the taking of your testimony.

Mrs. Sawyer. Yes.

Mr. Liebeler. And that he enclosed with that letter a copy of the Executive order and the congressional resolution to which I have just referred, and also a copy of the Commission's rules governing the taking of testimony of witnesses. Is that correct?

Mrs. Sawyer. That is correct. At the time that I spoke to your Mr. Gerrets last night, I hadn't gone through some mail that was in my place and had been picked up by my aunt when she came by and picked up the mail on that Saturday morning, and I hadn't even bothered going through it, because most of the time the mail I have is just bills or some advertisements, and it is very inconsequential, so, as a result, after hearing that I was supposed to have a letter, I became a little curious and looked, and I found that there was one.

Mr. Liebeler. Good. Technically, witnesses are entitled to 3 days' notice before being required to appear. I don't think you had quite 3 days' notice,32 but you can waive that if you want to. As long as you are here, I assume you will want to go ahead.

Mrs. Sawyer. Certainly. I will be very glad to, because I am afraid there is very little I know.

Mr. Liebeler. I don't think we will take very long, actually, but one of the things the Commission is trying to do is develop as much background knowledge about Lee Harvey Oswald as it possibly can, in the hope that it might give some insight into his possible motive, if in fact he did assassinate the President.

Mrs. Sawyer. I see.

Mr. Liebeler. Would you state your full name for the record?

Mrs. Sawyer. Mildred Sawyer.

Mr. Liebeler. Where do you live?

Mrs. Sawyer. I live in Lakeview; 6306 Louisville Street; part of the time with my father, and then I have a little place on Exchange Place where I kept my husband's books and things, where we always worked, more or less a little office, and when the weather was bad or when I felt too pressed with work, or if I am tired and don't feel like going to dad's, I stay there. My husband and I had the place arranged so, whenever we wanted to, we could stay there.

Mr. Liebeler. Your husband is deceased? Is that correct?

Mrs. Sawyer. Yes.

Mr. Liebeler. How long have you lived at the Exchange Place apartment?

Mrs. Sawyer. Oh, whenever the Monteleone Hotel took over the place where we were living, which belonged to Mr. Saussaye, on Royal Street, and he owned that building there, and the Monteleone Hotel—you remember when they tore it down and remodeled to make a parking garage there? We had to leave at that time, and then we were looking for some little place to store all our books and everything—my husband was an engineer and we had a lot of things that we worked on, and he was in and out of the city, so when he came in it was very convenient to have someplace like that where we could work sometimes, if we felt like it, way past midnight, and that would have disturbed my father, who was quite old—he is 91, in fact—so that is how we started looking around, and we found this little place and took it, and I have been going back and forth ever since.

Mr. Liebeler. That would have been in the 1950's sometime?

Mrs. Sawyer. I am trying to recall the year, but really I can't without looking at my receipts. It would be hard for me to remember that. My husband died 2 years ago in November, and we were there at least 3 years or 4 years, I think. I am not certain of the time. I mean it is kind of hard for me to reconstruct, to go back. Anyway, whatever it was, when we moved there these people, this Mrs. Oswald and her son, were living there in the apartment below the one that we took, and they remained there a short while, and they moved away after that and I never heard any more or anything until then, and I had forgotten all about the name of the people or anything until finally your men called.

Mr. Liebeler. You mean you were interviewed by someone from the FBI sometime back in November?

Mrs. Sawyer. Yes. There was an FBI man who called me sometime back, and that is when I realized that they were the same people.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you become acquainted with Mrs. Oswald to any extent during the time that you lived at this Exchange Place?

Mrs. Sawyer. Not really, because—well, she was old enough to be my mother, I might say, and our working all the time—and so was my husband—and then I was connected with the opera group here and I was out most of the time, and when we met it was usually on the stairway or in and out the door, once in awhile talking on the steps, perhaps. About the most we did was bid each other the time of day, and that is about all, and, of course, the little boy the same thing. And I say "little boy" because to me he was a child when I saw him. I can vaguely remember, or I have a mental picture of, a little boy with blond, curly hair and rather nice looking, and that is about all I can say, and once in a while if he happened to be going out or coming in at the time I was going, he would always open the door and hold the door for me, and he seemed quite polite.

33 Mr. Liebeler. He was about 14 years old?

Mrs. Sawyer. I would say he must have been about 14. I say he was a little boy because I am sure he was an early teenager. Of course, as I say, I have lost track of time then. I was wondering how old he actually is or was.

Mr. Liebeler. Is the address of this place 126 Exchange Place?

Mrs. Sawyer. Yes.

Mr. Liebeler. It is not in Exchange Alley?

Mrs. Sawyer. It is Exchange Place, and Exchange Place and Exchange Alley are one and the same thing. Years ago they used to be called Exchange Alley.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you know what Mrs. Oswald did for a living?

Mrs. Sawyer. Yes. That much I do know, because I believe she was working as a clerk in Kreeger's, but I am not positive. I have been trying to think since I had to come here, and she left there, and I believe she either went to Goldring's or Godchaux's—I don't remember which—because she met me on the street one day and asked if I was buying any clothes and would I not come by and buy from her so that she might get the commission or show me something I might be interested in. In fact, I never did go; I never did buy, though. I never did go to her for anything.

Mr. Liebeler. The only two people that lived in the apartment were Mrs. Oswald and this boy? Is that right?

Mrs. Sawyer. That is all.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you know how big an apartment it was?

Mrs. Sawyer. Well, I imagine it consisted of about the same size or same things as the one that we have; that is, a large living room, combination dining room or a little dining alcove, and a small bath, a small kitchen, and a rather large bedroom with large closet space, and I am sure—seeing it, well, I would say the stretch of the building going up the stairway, I would say that it was the same thing, or close to it anyway. I am sure it had the same dimensions.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you remember anything about Lee Oswald, the boy that lived there? I think you told the FBI that he would always get home before his mother and he was very quiet.

Mrs. Sawyer. Well, I say I am not certain that he always got home before his mother. I imagine he came home from school, because, as I say, occasionally I met him going up and down the stairway or at the door or something like that, but he was not a boisterous child and undoubtedly he was not an unruly child, because I am sure if he had been and she had scolded him we would have heard it unless it was very low voiced and——

Mr. Liebeler. And you never did hear any arguments between them or any scolding?

Mrs. Sawyer. No.

Mr. Liebeler. Did he seem to be polite?

Mrs. Sawyer. Yes; quite polite. I mean, in fact, that was one of the things that impressed me about him, because most kids these days, especially the teenagers, are usually so abrupt. They don't think very much of manners, but, in fact, if I happened to come in and he was out at the doorway, he held the door and closed it after me, or something like that, and I thought it was rather nice, but I never got into any conversations with him, because I make it a point that, outside of my own circle of friends, I don't really care to become friendly with other people, and I think neighbors especially.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you know whether he had any friends from school or anyplace come to visit him, people his own age? Did you see anyone come and go?

Mrs. Sawyer. I never did, but then, like I say, I am out from 8 o'clock in the morning until maybe 5:30, 6, or 7 in the evening, and sometimes I get a snack and go back to work again and work until maybe 9 o'clock or so.

Mr. Liebeler. What were you doing at that time? Were you working?

Mrs. Sawyer. Secretary.

Mr. Liebeler. Secretarial work?

Mrs. Sawyer. Yes.

Mr. Liebeler. Are you employed as a secretary now, too?

Mrs. Sawyer. I do secretarial work or general or anything like that that I am qualified to do. Well, anything along those lines.

34 Mr. Liebeler. Are you employed at the present time?

Mrs. Sawyer. Yes.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you remember the circumstances under which the Oswalds left the Exchange Place apartment? Did they tell you where they were going or anything?

Mrs. Sawyer. No; I didn't—I don't recall her saying anything about where she was going particularly. I know one day my husband told me that she was packing furniture or something and preparing to leave, and shortly after that evidently her things were picked up, because when I came back, well, they were gone.

Mr. Liebeler. As far as you can recall, there was nothing peculiar or particularly outstanding about this boy that would call notice to him to distinguish him from other boys his age?

Mrs. Sawyer. Really, no; I wouldn't say anything that I can think of, and, as I say, I never came in contact with him long enough or spoke to him, and they were just average people. She just seemed like a very average mother, and I rather imagined in my own mind that she worked and probably did all she could to take care of him as any mother would. About the only thing I remembered about him was the fact that he was rather a nice-looking little boy, and his blond, curly hair.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you know of any friends that Mrs. Oswald had during that time?

Mrs. Sawyer. No; I don't, and, of course, I could venture to say that she probably had friends at the stores where she worked.

Mr. Liebeler. But you didn't know any of them?

Mrs. Sawyer. I didn't know any of them, because I made no contacts.

Mr. Liebeler. I don't think I have any more questions, Mrs. Sawyer. If you can think of anything else that you want to add or anything that you think we ought to know, that we haven't asked you about, or if you can remember anything else about the Oswalds that we haven't covered——

Mrs. Sawyer. No; well, about the only thing I can tell you is that apparently she was a very kindly person, because the day that we moved into the place, when we had so many books and things to take up, and it was rather a struggle and stairs to climb, and I guess we might have been pretty tired—well, she came out of her doorway and brought coffee to both of us right there on the stairway, and that was the first contact we had with her that we had ever seen her, and——

Mr. Liebeler. She seemed to be friendly?

Mrs. Sawyer. She seemed to be a pleasant person, a friendly person, but I would say very average, I would think. She seemed to be well spoken, I would say average education, possibly not college or anything like that. I was really quite amazed at such a thing happening to this little boy, because, as I said, my picture of him, my mental picture I did remember seemed to be such a pleasant one that something like that came as pretty much of a shock that a child who seemed to be so nice would be involved in anything like that.

Mr. Liebeler. Did he ever talk about politics with you, or did you ever hear him talking about politics to anybody?

Mrs. Sawyer. No, no; because, as I said, I never met him any more than just saying good morning—and he did say that—or good evening or something like that, but I never engaged in any conversations with him at all. I considered him just a child, and I would hardly think at 14 years old he would have engaged in political talk, or else he would have been quite——

Mr. Liebeler. Precocious?

Mrs. Sawyer. True.

Mr. Liebeler. Well, if you don't have anything else that you can think of, I have no more questions. We want to thank you very much for coming over.

Mrs. Sawyer. Well, you are quite welcome.

Mr. Liebeler. And for waiting until we got to you, both for myself personally, and the Commission through me expresses its thanks for the cooperation that you have given us.

Mrs. Sawyer. Well, you are quite welcome. I am sorry that all I know is so vague and such a little bit.

35

TESTIMONY OF MRS. ANNE BOUDREAUX

The testimony of Mrs. Anne Boudreaux was taken on April 7, 1964, at the Old Civil Courts Building, Royal and Conti Streets, New Orleans, La., by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mrs. Anne Boudreaux, 831 Pauline Street, New Orleans, La., after first being duly sworn, testified as follows:

Mr. Jenner. You are Mrs. Anne Boudreaux, is that right?

Mrs. Boudreaux. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And your husband's name is Edward?

Mrs. Boudreaux. That's right.

Mr. Jenner. Mrs. Boudreaux, you received a letter from the general counsel of the Commission, did you not?

Mrs. Boudreaux. Yes, I did.

Mr. Jenner. In which was enclosed a copy of Senate Joint Resolution 137, which authorized the creation of the Commission to investigate the assassination of President John Fitzgerald Kennedy, is that right?

Mrs. Boudreaux. Yes; I have the letter with me.

Mr. Jenner. And the order of Lyndon B. Johnson, the President of the United States, bringing the Commission into existence and fixing its powers and duties?

Mrs. Boudreaux. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And a copy of our rules and regulations under which we take testimony before the Commission and also by way of deposition, such as this one?

Mrs. Boudreaux. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. All right. I therefore take it you understand from those documents that the Commission was authorized and appointed to investigate all the facts and circumstances surrounding the assassination of President John Fitzgerald Kennedy on the 22d of November 1963?

Mrs. Boudreaux. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. I am Albert E. Jenner, Jr., member of the legal staff, of the Commission, and I would like to inquire of you a little bit to see if you can't give us some information that will help the Commission in its investigation.

Mrs. Boudreaux. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. We are seeking to elicit from those who came into contact with Lee Harvey Oswald and his brothers and his mother and others, information that may be helpful to the Commission in its work, and the Commission very much appreciates your coming down here today, because these are always a little inconvenient, of course.

Mrs. Boudreaux. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. All right. Now, Mrs. Boudreaux, you live at 831 Pauline Street, is that right?

Mrs. Boudreaux. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. How long have you lived at 831 Pauline?

Mrs. Boudreaux. Since 1932—no, I beg your pardon, 1942; since June 15, 1942.

Mr. Jenner. 1942, rather than 1932?

Mrs. Boudreaux. Yes, that's right. I wasn't thinking right.

Mr. Jenner. By the way, are you a native of this part of the country?

Mrs. Boudreaux. Yes, I am.

Mr. Jenner. You were born here and reared here?

Mrs. Boudreaux. I was born in Louisiana, yes.

Mr. Jenner. And your husband?

Mrs. Boudreaux. My husband too.

Mr. Jenner. And you have a family?

Mrs. Boudreaux. Yes, I do.

Mr. Jenner. How many children?

Mrs. Boudreaux. I have five children.

Mr. Jenner. What are their ages, Mrs. Boudreaux?

Mrs. Boudreaux. 22, 17, two 16's, and one 11.

Mr. Jenner. Two 16's?

36 Mrs. Boudreaux. That's right.

Mr. Jenner. Now, who was the previous occupant of your home, if you know?

Mrs. Boudreaux. Mrs. Oswald.

Mr. Jenner. That's Mrs. Marguerite Oswald?

Mrs. Boudreaux. Yes, Marguerite Oswald.

Mr. Jenner. Did you become acquainted with her?

Mrs. Boudreaux. No, I did not.

Mr. Jenner. You did not?

Mrs. Boudreaux. No, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Do you know to where she moved when you took over that house?

Mrs. Boudreaux. No, I do not.

Mr. Jenner. That home is a single family dwelling, is it not?

Mrs. Boudreaux. It's a double house.

Mr. Jenner. A double house?

Mrs. Boudreaux. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Is that up and down, or side by side?

Mrs. Boudreaux. Two sides.

Mr. Jenner. Side by side with a common party wall, I suppose?

Mrs. Boudreaux. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Who occupies the other house?

Mrs. Boudreaux. On the other side?

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mrs. Boudreaux. It's a Mr. Russo.

Mr. Jenner. Mr. Russo?

Mrs. Boudreaux. Him and his wife, but they were living there when I moved in.

Mr. Jenner. When you moved in?

Mrs. Boudreaux. Yes, sir; they were there already.

Mr. Jenner. Did you learn of any particular circumstances which brought about or played a part in Mrs. Oswald's leaving those premises?

Mrs. Boudreaux. No; I didn't. I didn't hear anything like that.

Mr. Jenner. Did you become acquainted with someone who in turn had some experiences with Lee Oswald?

Mrs. Boudreaux. Yes, sir; like I told the detective that came to see me, that was Mrs. Roach; she's dead now.

Mr. Jenner. Mrs. Roach?

Mrs. Boudreaux. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Where did she live?

Mrs. Boudreaux. She lived with them for about 2 weeks. She was their babysitter.

Mr. Jenner. Oh, babysitter for Mrs. Oswald?

Mrs. Boudreaux. Yes, sir; for the baby.

Mr. Jenner. She baby-sat for Lee Oswald then, is that right?

Mrs. Boudreaux. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Did she live in that neighborhood?

Mrs. Boudreaux. Yes. She used to live on Lesseps Street.

Mr. Jenner. That is where with respect to your home; about how far away?

Mrs. Boudreaux. Well, about 6 blocks, I guess. It's right about a block from the Port of Embarkation.

Mr. Jenner. And she would come over and babysit for Lee, is that right?

Mrs. Boudreaux. Well, she stayed with Mrs. Oswald for 2 weeks.

Mr. Jenner. She actually moved into the home?

Mrs. Boudreaux. Yes, for 2 weeks she moved in.

Mr. Jenner. When was that?

Mrs. Boudreaux. Well, that was right before Mrs. Oswald moved out, and I moved in.

Mr. Jenner. Shortly before that?

Mrs. Boudreaux. Yes, it wasn't long before that. In fact, it was through her that I knew the house was going to be empty.

Mr. Jenner. Through Mrs. Roach?

Mrs. Boudreaux. Yes.

37 Mr. Jenner. You had been acquainted with her for some time?

Mrs. Boudreaux. Mrs. Roach?

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mrs. Boudreaux. Oh, yes. I had known Mrs. Roach since I was a little bitty girl. She was in the Oswald home either in the early part of June or the latter part of May 1942.

Mr. Jenner. She was?

Mrs. Boudreaux. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Did you have some conversations with her at the time with respect to Lee's conduct?

Mrs. Boudreaux. Who, Mrs. Roach?

Mr. Jenner. Yes; with respect to Lee's conduct while she was babysitting?

Mrs. Boudreaux. Yes; she usually talked about things like that, you know, and she said the reason why she had to leave was because he was bad, and he wouldn't listen, and things like that.

Mr. Jenner. The reason why Mrs. Roach had to leave?

Mrs. Boudreaux. Yes, sir; she said she just couldn't take it any more.

Mr. Jenner. Lee then would have been about 2½ years old, is that right?

Mrs. Boudreaux. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. A little more than that?

Mrs. Boudreaux. Yes. She said she just couldn't take it any longer.

Mr. Jenner. Tell me as best you can what Mrs. Roach recalled in that conversation with you.

Mrs. Boudreaux. Well, she said he wouldn't listen, and he was bad. She said he had a little toy gun, and he threw it at her and broke the chandelier in the bedroom, and things like that.

Mr. Jenner. Of course, at that age he wouldn't know whether it was a gun or not, or what a gun was, would he?

Mrs. Boudreaux. No, but you know, she said it was just a little toy gun, but he threw it at her when he got mad, and she had an awful time with him.

Mr. Jenner. She thought he exhibited fits of temper?

Mrs. Boudreaux. Yes. She said he was a, I mean, a bad child; that's what she said.

Mr. Jenner. Did she say anything about the other two boys.

Mrs. Boudreaux. No, she didn't. In fact, I didn't even know about the other boys until the man told me who he was. I didn't know she had other boys.

Mr. Jenner. That man who told you that, was he from the FBI or the Secret Service?

Mrs. Boudreaux. Yes; he came out three times to see me.

Mr. Jenner. When you moved into that home, what was the reputation in the neighborhood or community with respect to Mrs. Oswald?

Mrs. Boudreaux. Well, nobody ever talked about her. You know, neighbors sort of keep to themselves. I mean, that's a neighborhood that whoever moves in they keep to themselves. They don't make up to you too quickly, I mean.

Mr. Jenner. But as far as the general reputation is concerned, what was her reputation for truth and veracity, for example?

Mrs. Boudreaux. Well, they have never spoken about that, at least to me, I mean, the neighbors.

Mr. Jenner. You never heard anything bad about her?

Mrs. Boudreaux. No, I never did, and as far as her being a good mother to her children, well, I have never heard anything other than good. I have never heard anything spoken about her.

Mr. Jenner. When her son Lee was 2½ years old, was she working at that time?

Mrs. Boudreaux. I think she was.

Mr. Jenner. Is that why she had to have a babysitter.

Mrs. Boudreaux. Yes; that's why she had had the babysitter. I mean, the lady that could tell you all about that, she's dead—Mrs. Roach. She's deceased. She could have told you a lot more about all that.

Mr. Jenner. What did you learn as to how long she had been living there?

Mrs. Boudreaux. Well, I don't know how long she had been living there when I moved in.

38 Mr. Jenner. Where is 831 Pauline Street with respect to 1012 Bartholomew?

Mrs. Boudreaux. That would be about 4 blocks, I would say, from where I live.

Mr. Jenner. From 1012 Bartholomew to where you live would be about 4 blocks?

Mrs. Boudreaux. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Did you learn that she lived at one time at 1010 Bartholomew?

Mrs. Boudreaux. No; I didn't. I don't know where she lived after she left there.

Mr. Jenner. Were these rented homes, or could you purchase them?

Mrs. Boudreaux. The one where I was living?

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mrs. Boudreaux. They were rented, but now I own my home.

Mr. Jenner. But they were being rented at that time?

Mrs. Boudreaux. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. The former landlady, is she alive?

Mrs. Boudreaux. No; she's not.

Mrs. Jenner. She's dead?

Mrs. Boudreaux. Yes; she's dead.

Mr. Jenner. Until this tragic event occurred last fall, had you heard of any of the Oswalds from the time they moved away?

Mrs. Boudreaux. No; I didn't know until the FBI man told me—until he got to questioning me, that it was the boy who lived in that house. I didn't realize that until he told me. The only other contact I had—I don't know if it's important or not——

Mr. Jenner. Well, you let us decide what is important and what isn't. We want to get all the information we can possibly get as to the facts and circumstances surrounding this matter; so you go right ahead.

Mrs. Boudreaux. Well, I bought the boy's baby bed, and I gave Mrs. Roach the money to pay for it, and she left the bed in the house, and then they never came back for the money, I don't think.

Mr. Jenner. In advance of moving in, you purchased their baby bed?

Mrs. Boudreaux. Yes; I bought the bed, which I still have, and I raised all my children with it.

Mr. Jenner. Is that right?

Mrs. Boudreaux. Yes; I raised my five children with it, and I intend to give it to them even though this happened. Like I say, it wasn't concerning them at all.

Mr. Jenner. Now, these depositions will be written up by the court reporter, and you have the privilege, if you wish, of reading your deposition and signing it, but you can waive that if you want so as to avoid the inconvenience of coming down here again, but if you wish to read it and sign it, that's your privilege. If you decide to waive the reading and signing of the deposition, the court reporter will transcribe it, and it will be sent by the U.S. attorney to Washington to be read by the members of the Commission conducting this investigation.

Mrs. Boudreaux. I don't need to sign it. All I was saying was the truth, and that's all I can do.

Mr. Jenner. Then I take it you would just as soon waive the necessity of reading and signing the deposition?

Mrs. Boudreaux. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Very well; thank you very much for appearing here voluntarily and giving us your statement.

TESTIMONY OF MRS. VIOLA PETERMAN

The testimony of Mrs. Viola Peterman was taken on April 7, 1964, at the Old Civil Courts Building, Royal and Conti Streets, New Orleans, La., by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

39

Mrs. Viola Peterman, 1012 Bartholomew Street, New Orleans, La., after first being duly sworn, testified as follows:

Mr. Jenner. This is Mrs. Mildred Peterman, is that right?

Mrs. Peterman. No; that's Milfred.

Mr. Jenner. Milfred?

Mrs. Peterman. Yes; that's M-i-l-f-r-e-d. That's my husband's name.

Mr. Jenner. It's Mrs. Milfred Peterman?

Mrs. Peterman. That's correct.

Mr. Jenner. What is your given name, Mrs. Peterman?

Mrs. Peterman. Viola.

Mr. Jenner. Is that V-i-o-l-a?

Mrs. Peterman. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. You received a letter recently from Mr. Rankin; is that correct?

Mrs. Peterman. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. The general counsel of the Warren Commission?

Mrs. Peterman. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. There was enclosed with the letter three documents, weren't there?

Mrs. Peterman. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. One was the Senate joint resolution authorizing the creation of the Presidential Commission to investigate the assassination of President John Fitzgerald Kennedy; another was the Executive order of President Johnson appointing that Commission and fixing its powers and its duties, and the other was a copy of the rules and regulations under which we take depositions, such as this one, and have testimony before the Commission; is that right?

Mrs. Peterman. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Do you understand from those documents, Mrs. Peterman, that the Commission is directed by the President to investigate the facts and circumstances surrounding the assassination of President Kennedy?

Mrs. Peterman. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. In that connection, we of the Commission's legal staff, in addition to presenting evidence before the Commission itself, are deposing various people around the country whose lives came into contact with Lee Harvey Oswald and with other individuals involved, or possibly involved, in the assassination, and we understand that you have some information that might be helpful to us; is that right, Mrs. Peterman?

Mrs. Peterman. Well, I can only tell you what I know.

Mr. Jenner. That's all we ask, Mrs. Peterman. First, let me ask, are you a native of this part of the country?

Mrs. Peterman. Yes; New Orleans, La.

Mr. Jenner. You were born here?

Mrs. Peterman. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And was your husband likewise born here?

Mrs. Peterman. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And what is his business or occupation?

Mrs. Peterman. Well, he's retired now. He was taking care of the building and things over at LSU, but he retired last year.

Mr. Jenner. He retired last year?

Mrs. Peterman. Yes; since March last year.

Mr. Jenner. Now, I understand you were acquainted with Marguerite Oswald, mother of Lee Oswald; is that right?

Mrs. Peterman. Yes; she lived right next door to me, at 1010 Bartholomew. I live at 1012 Bartholomew, but, gee, that was 23 years ago that they lived there.

Mr. Jenner. She lived at 1010 Bartholomew, right next door to you?

Mrs. Peterman. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. How long have you lived at 1012 Bartholomew, Mrs. Peterman?

Mrs. Peterman. Well, let's see—I moved there in 1941; that's been 23 years ago that I moved there.

Mr. Jenner. Was she already living there when you moved there?

Mrs. Peterman. Yes; she was there, I would say, well, it couldn't have been more than a month before we moved there, because both of the houses was sold40 at the same time, but we bought ours after she did, because she was in there first.

Mr. Jenner. Were these relatively new houses?

Mrs. Peterman. No; they were old places.

Mr. Jenner. They had been lived in before?

Mrs. Peterman. Oh, yes.

Mr. Jenner. When you say you lived next door to each other, was that across the street from each other, or right next door, on the same side of the street?

Mrs. Peterman. Right next door. There were three single homes on two lots, you see.

Mr. Jenner. Three single-family dwellings on two lots?

Mrs. Peterman. Yes; on two city lots.

Mr. Jenner. Are they identical houses?

Mrs. Peterman. Well, they were when we bought them, but everybody fixed theirs up different, you see.

Mr. Jenner. Describe those houses for me.

Mrs. Peterman. What do you mean?

Mr. Jenner. Were they four-room, five-room, or six-room dwellings, and so forth—give me just a general idea of how they were composed, and how large.

Mrs. Peterman. Well, they had four rooms and a bath is all; just straight houses.

Mr. Jenner. Four rooms and a bath?

Mrs. Peterman. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Of what construction; wood?

Mrs. Peterman. Wood; yes.

Mr. Jenner. Did you have any children, Mrs. Peterman?

Mrs. Peterman. I had four children.

Mr. Jenner. What were their ages around that time?

Mrs. Peterman. When she moved there and we moved there; right around that time, you mean?

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mrs. Peterman. Well, let's see; my oldest girl was 21; my boy was 12; my next girl was 10; and the other one was 8.

Mr. Jenner. Your eldest child was a boy or girl?

Mrs. Peterman. A girl.

Mr. Jenner. And her present name?

Mrs. Peterman. She's a Herrmann now. She married Felix Herrmann.

Mr. Jenner. How do you spell that—Herrmann?

Mrs. Peterman. I think it's H-e-r-r-m-a-n-n.

Mr. Jenner. What's her first name?

Mrs. Peterman. Marian is her first name.

Mr. Jenner. Does she still live in New Orleans?

Mrs. Peterman. Well, she lives down in Chalmette.

Mr. Jenner. Is that near here?

Mrs. Peterman. That's down in St. Bernard; below, in St. Bernard.

Mr. Jenner. Is that a city?

Mrs. Peterman. What, Chalmette?

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mrs. Peterman. I wouldn't call it a city; it's a different part of St. Bernard.

Mr. Jenner. But it's in the vicinity of New Orleans?

Mrs. Peterman. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. She's now what; 45?

Mrs. Peterman. No; she's going to be 46, I think; I am pretty sure she will be 46.

Mr. Jenner. Was she living at home at that time?

Mrs. Peterman. You mean when Marguerite was living next door to us?

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mrs. Peterman. Yes; she was.

Mr. Jenner. Your next was then 12 years old; is that right?

Mrs. Peterman. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Was that a boy or girl?

Mrs. Peterman. Boy.

41 Mr. Jenner. His name?

Mrs. Peterman. Emile.

Mr. Jenner. Where does he live now?

Mrs. Peterman. He lives, I think it's 13 St. Claude Court.

Mr. Jenner. St. Claude Court?

Mrs. Peterman. Yes; that's right.

Mr. Jenner. Is that in New Orleans?

Mrs. Peterman. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Then your next was a 10-year-old; right?

Mrs. Peterman. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. What was her name?

Mrs. Peterman. Myra; another girl.

Mr. Jenner. Myra?

Mrs. Peterman. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Myra is now married; is that right?

Mrs. Peterman. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. What's her married name?

Mrs. Peterman. Davis.

Mr. Jenner. What's the name of her husband?

Mrs. Peterman. Eddie.

Mr. Jenner. Edward?

Mrs. Peterman. No, Eddie; E-d-d-i-e is how they spell it.

Mr. Jenner. Does he work here?

Mrs. Peterman. Yes; at Public Service.

Mr. Jenner. Where do they live?

Mrs. Peterman. They live on Cedar Avenue—713 Cedar Avenue, in Metairie.

Mr. Jenner. Metairie?

Mrs. Peterman. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Is that part of New Orleans?

Mrs. Peterman. Yes; that's in Jeff Parish, but it's part of New Orleans. It runs into it, I mean.

Mr. Jenner. All right; and then your youngest?

Mrs. Peterman. Let me explain about her.

Mr. Jenner. Go right ahead.

Mrs. Peterman. She wasn't really my own. She was my husband's sister's child. I didn't adopt her, but I raised her. The father and mother both died, and I raised her from 5 years old. She went by her own name.

Mr. Jenner. What was that?

Mrs. Peterman. Her name was—when she was single, Welbrock, but she married, and now it's Kushler.

Mr. Jenner. And that's the one that you said was 8 years old at the time?

Mrs. Peterman. Yes; at that time, yes.

Mr. Jenner. What was her first name?

Mrs. Peterman. Cecelia.

Mr. Jenner. And she's married, and her name is now Kushler?

Mrs. Peterman. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And they reside where?

Mrs. Peterman. 3207 Rabbit Street, Gentilly.

Mr. Jenner. Rabbit Street in Gentilly?

Mrs. Peterman. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Is that a part of New Orleans?

Mrs. Peterman. Yes; it's the part out by the lake.

Mr. Jenner. Which lake?

Mrs. Peterman. Lake Pontchartrain.

Mr. Jenner. All right; now, Emile; how old is he now?

Mrs. Peterman. Emile?

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mrs. Peterman. He will be 34; no, 35. He will be 35 in September. He's 34 right now.

Mr. Jenner. He's 34 now?

Mrs. Peterman. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And Myra will be how old?

42 Mrs. Peterman. She made 32 in February.

Mr. Jenner. And Cecelia?

Mr. Peterman. She will be 30 this month—I mean, in May—May 15.

Mr. Jenner. So at that time, Emile, Myra and Cecelia were attending elementary school, is that right?

Mrs. Peterman. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Did they all attend the same school?

Mrs. Peterman. They went to Washington, yes.

Mr. Jenner. Washington Elementary School?

Mrs. Peterman. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Where is that?

Mrs. Peterman. St. Claude and Alvar.

Mr. Jenner. And your son Felix; had he graduated from both elementary school and high school at that time?

Mrs. Peterman. Who is that?

Mr. Jenner. Oh, I'm sorry; your daughter Marian. Did she graduate from high school?

Mrs. Peterman. No; she went through Washington, and then she went to high school 3 weeks or thereabouts.

Mr. Jenner. You became acquainted with Marguerite Oswald immediately when you moved into those houses, I assume; did you?

Mrs. Peterman. No, I wouldn't say that. She was a person that kept to herself, and I did the same. She must have lived there about 3 years, maybe a little less, but I didn't bother her and she didn't bother me. I had my hands full with my children, and she had three little ones herself, so she had her hands full. We would speak, but that was about all.

Mr. Jenner. But you did become acquainted with her?

Mrs. Peterman. Oh, yes; I would say that.

Mr. Jenner. You were aware that she had three children?

Mrs. Peterman. Three boys, yes. The oldest one was John Pic, because she married his father before she married Oswald. She told me that herself, but now whether she was divorced from him or whether he was dead, I don't know.

Mr. Jenner. All right. Now, one of her boys was John Pic, is that right?

Mrs. Peterman. Yes, P-I-C-K.

Mr. Jenner. Well, I think it's P-I-C, and her second boy was——

Mrs. Peterman. Robert.

Mr. Jenner. And the third?

Mrs. Peterman. Lee.

Mr. Jenner. Lee was the third one?

Mrs. Peterman. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Now, at this particular time John and Robert were about within the age range of your three younger children; that's Emile, Myra and Cecelia; is that right?

Mrs. Peterman. Well, they were more around Cecelia's age.

Mr. Jenner. Around Cecelia's age?

Mrs. Peterman. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Lee, however, was considerably younger, was he not?

Mrs. Peterman. Yes. He must have been not quite 18 months when she moved there, maybe less; that's 23 years ago, you know, and it's hard to recall all of that, to be exact.

Mr. Jenner. That's all right. We want you to just give us the information as you recall it. Now, Robert was about what age at that time?

Mrs. Peterman. I really couldn't say, but I imagine about 4 or 5. I really don't know to be exact on that.

Mr. Jenner. And John?

Mrs. Peterman. He must have been at least 7 or 8, because he was going to school.

Mr. Jenner. So she had Lee, who was a baby infant, you might say, is that right?

Mrs. Peterman. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And another child who was not yet of school age, and that would be Robert?

43 Mrs. Peterman. That's right.

Mr. Jenner. And John, her eldest. Was John attending Washington Elementary at that time?

Mrs. Peterman. I am almost sure he did, but I wouldn't swear to that; I am not positive.

Mr. Jenner. So as I get it, during the 3 years that they lived there, Robert eventually entered Washington Elementary School, is that right?

Mrs. Peterman. Well, I couldn't say that. In fact, I think she moved before that, because she didn't stay there long. I don't think it was 3 years.

Mr. Jenner. About 2 years maybe?

Mrs. Peterman. Maybe along in there; she moved before 3 years, I know.

Mr. Jenner. You say she was inclined to keep to herself most of the time?

Mrs. Peterman. Yes, she was.

Mr. Jenner. You didn't regard that as strange, did you?

Mrs. Peterman. No; I am a person like that myself. I don't bother much with the neighbors.

Mr. Jenner. I take it from what you have told me, Mrs. Peterman, that Marguerite Oswald was unmarried at the time, that she had just divorced her husband, or been divorced by him, is that right?

Mrs. Peterman. Well, the first one I don't know, but the second one was dead. He died and left her a widow. She told me that herself when she moved there. Now, her first husband, I didn't know whether he was dead, living, or what. She never mentioned him.

Mr. Jenner. When did you say you moved into that house?

Mrs. Peterman. In 1941.

Mr. Jenner. You moved there in 1941?

Mrs. Peterman. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. All right. Well, in any event she was unmarried at that time, is that right?

Mrs. Peterman. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Do you know how she supported herself?

Mrs. Peterman. Well, at first I don't. I know she told me that she sold her house, where they came from, but how much that was or anything I don't know. She might have had insurance from him; I don't know. Then later she opened a little dry goods store.

Mr. Jenner. A dry goods store?

Mrs. Peterman. I won't say a dry goods store—more like a grocery store, I guess you would say—just a small place there in the front room. She sold bread, milk, candy, and things like that.

Mr. Jenner. Where was that?

Mrs. Peterman. In her front room.

Mr. Jenner. The front room of her house?

Mrs. Peterman. Yes; it was a little grocery store.

Mr. Jenner. Would the local city ordinances permit that?

Mrs. Peterman. I don't know about that, but she did operate it for a short time—not too long. Finally she gave that up, but as far as I know that was the only money she had coming in at that time.

Mr. Jenner. Give me your impression of Mrs. Oswald, would you please; what kind of person she was.

Mrs. Peterman. Well, like I said—I don't know how to explain it, but she was a person who was not overfriendly, and she wasn't no snob either. I can't say that, but I don't know. She was the kind of a person that—I don't know how to say it. I mean, I had no trouble with her, and she was a good mother to her children.

Mr. Jenner. She was?

Mrs. Peterman. That she was, and she would always keep, like I say, to herself. She didn't do much talking, that is, to me; but now whether she did to the other neighbors, I don't know.

Mr. Jenner. You didn't regard her conduct as strange?

Mrs. Peterman. No; nothing like that. Like I told you, I am the kind of person who keeps to myself too. I have been right now 23 years in that neighborhood, I—there are some people living around there right now that I couldn't44 tell you their name. I am always inside. I never go out, you know, but I have nothing to say against her in any kind of way.

Mr. Jenner. She seemed to be industrious and a good mother, is that right?

Mrs. Peterman. Yes, sir; she was good to her children, and she kept them all, you know, nice and clean, but I don't know anything about her business at all.

Mr. Jenner. What was your reaction to the two older boys, John and Robert?

Mrs. Peterman. Well, they were like all kids, I guess, you know, having a good time, but I will say that they were not running like the kids do today.

Mr. Jenner. What do you mean by that?

Mrs. Peterman. I mean children back in those days were not like children are today, and I know, because I have grandchildren now, and they are altogether different now. Even Lee, he was a good little child, and he didn't do things like the boys do today. That's why I just can't see how this all came about. I can't understand it. We didn't even know anything about it until the man found me, you know. We all thought maybe it was Lee, but we just, you know, couldn't believe it.

Mr. Jenner. Do you recall the names of any other children in the neighborhood who were about the ages of Robert and John?

Mrs. Peterman. No; I don't think so.

Mr. Jenner. Would your daughter Cecelia still have a recollection of those boys, do you think?

Mrs. Peterman. I doubt it, because she was only 8 then. She was small. My older ones might remember them.

Mr. Jenner. That would be Myra and Emile?

Mrs. Peterman. Yes; Myra and Emile.

Mr. Jenner. All right. Is there anything else that occurs to you that might be helpful to the Commission that I haven't asked you about, either because I don't know about it or I have neglected to ask you about it, or anything you might want to contribute?

Mrs. Peterman. No; if there was anything else, I would be glad to tell you about it. Like I say, he was such a little bitty fellow, and after she moved away we lost track of them.

Mr. Jenner. After they moved away from there, you never heard of them and you never saw them until this tragic event occurred, is that right?

Mrs. Peterman. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And even then you didn't believe it was them until, as you said, the man found you?

Mrs. Peterman. I really didn't. Lee was a good little child, and Marguerite took good care of him.

Mr. Jenner. All right. I very much appreciate your coming down with your husband to talk to us.

Now, these depositions that we are taking will be sent by the U.S. attorney back to Washington, and you have the privilege, if you wish, to read over your deposition and to sign it.

You don't have to do that unless you wish, but I would appreciate knowing what you prefer to do, because if you wish to read your deposition and to sign it, then we will have to have the reporter write it out promptly and have the U.S. attorney call you in and then you may come down and read your deposition and sign it.

Mrs. Peterman. Well, as far as I can; I have told the truth about everything, you know, as much as I remember. Like I said, about the ages of the children and all, I am not positive. This was so long ago.

Mr. Jenner. Well, I think you were pretty close.

Mrs. Peterman. After 23 years you can't remember like just yesterday, or the day before.

Mr. Jenner. Well, all right then, as far as you are concerned, you would just as soon waive the signing of the deposition, is that right? You don't want to read it over and sign it?

Mrs. Peterman. Yes, sir; I waive it.

Mr. Jenner. Very well, and thank you again for coming down, Mrs. Peterman.

45

TESTIMONY OF MRS. MYRTLE EVANS

The testimony of Mrs. Myrtle Evans was taken on April 7, 1964, at the Old Civil Courts Building, Royal and Conti Streets, New Orleans, La., by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mrs. Myrtle Evans, 1910 Prytania Street, New Orleans, La., after first being duly sworn, testified as follows:

Mr. Jenner. You are Mrs. Myrtle Evans, is that right?

Mrs. Evans. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And your husband is Julian Evans, and he accompanied you here today, is that right?

Mrs. Evans. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. He is waiting outside until you complete your deposition?

Mrs. Evans. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Mrs. Evans, are you a native of New Orleans?

Mrs. Evans. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And your husband?

Mrs. Evans. Yes; he was born in New York, but he was raised in New Orleans.

Mr. Jenner. And you were born here?

Mrs. Evans. Yes; I was.

Mr. Jenner. And you have no family, is that right?

Mrs. Evans. That's right. Well, I have no immediate family. I have brothers and sisters, but I don't have any children.

Mr. Jenner. All right. Are you acquainted with a person named Marguerite Oswald?

Mrs. Evans. Yes; she was a very good friend of mine.

Mr. Jenner. When did you first become acquainted with her?

Mrs. Evans. In about 1930.

Mr. Jenner. About 1930?

Mrs. Evans. Something like that.

Mr. Jenner. She was then about 26 or 27 years old, is that right?

Mrs. Evans. Well, I guess that's about right.

Mr. Jenner. She is either 56 or 57 right now.

Mrs. Evans. Well, yes; she was about that then, I guess. I had met her between 1925 and 1930, about that time. I played cards with her.

Mr. Jenner. What kind of cards? Bridge?

Mrs. Evans. We played bridge, yes.

Mr. Jenner. How did you become acquainted with her?

Mrs. Evans. Well, through a friend, a mutual friend—hers and mine, and we used to play bridge together.

Mr. Jenner. Was she married then?

Mrs. Evans. She was separated from her first husband.

Mr. Jenner. Where did she live then, do you know?

Mrs. Evans. I think at that particular time she had a little apartment on North Carrollton. I never did visit her residence, so I don't know much about that. At that time she was living with her sister that lived right off of City Park, but it seems she had a basement apartment on North Carrollton. I don't think she was living there at that particular time. She did move in with her sister later, and from time to time she was with her, but at that particular time I don't think she was.

Mr. Jenner. What's her sister's name?

Mrs. Evans. Oh, I forget.

Mr. Jenner. Murret?

Mrs. Evans. Yes; Mrs. Murret.

Mr. Jenner. Lillian Murret?

Mrs. Evans. Yes; her first name is Lillian; yes, that's right.

Mr. Jenner. Did that acquaintance continue for some years?

Mrs. Evans. Well, I sort of quit playing cards, and I went and took an accounting course and went back to work, and I had not seen her for a while, and she remarried—to Oswald.

Mr. Jenner. You learned of that, did you?

46 Mrs. Evans. Yes; to Oswald.

Mr. Jenner. Did you see her from time to time in that interim?

Mrs. Evans. Well, I wasn't playing cards during that time or anything, but I might have run into her—I imagine I did, on the street, but I lost contact with her, sort of, and then—it was either just before Lee's birth or just after his birth; I can't remember; it has been so many years, but I met her on the corner of Canal and St. Charles. I think that was after Lee's birth. I think her husband had died, and I think she had just taken the baby to the doctor, or something. I think she told me they had wanted to have a little girl, but I can't remember all of that just the way it happened, you know. That's been such a long time ago, but I can remember meeting her; I just can't remember though if it was after her husband died, or if she was expecting a baby, or if she was the one that wanted a little girl. I can't remember if that was after the child was born. Most likely it was that she hoped they would have a little girl. Now, a lot of this was told to me after we became friends again, as to what happened.

I didn't attend her husband's funeral or anything, and I didn't start seeing a good deal of her again until—let's see; she finally went to work downtown, and I happened to run into her, or something like that. She was working for, I think, Pittsburgh Plate Glass Co., and I was a widow and she was a widow, and we again sort of regained our friendship.

Mr. Jenner. Your husband in the meantime had died?

Mrs. Evans. Yes; I am married now to Mr. Evans.

Mr. Jenner. Your first husband, was he also a native-born American?

Mrs. Evans. Oh, yes; now, I met Lee's aunt one day at a card party.

Mr. Jenner. That's Mrs. Murret?

Mrs. Evans. Yes, Lillian Murret, and I hadn't seen her in years. I am Catholic and she is Catholic, you see, and so they had this card party or some kind of an affair over at the Fontainebleau Motel, and a number of ladies were present, and it was for charity, and we played bingo and canasta and things, and she was selling aprons, and so she said, "Oh, Myrtle, did you hear about Lee; he gave up his American citizenship and went to Russia, behind the iron curtain," and I said "My God, no," and she said, "Yes."

Well, after that I didn't hear any more about it. I lost contact.

Mr. Jenner. When was this, 1959, 1960?

Mrs. Evans. Well, I would say 2 to 3 years ago, about 3 years ago, because I have been to those affairs, I think, twice since.

Mr. Jenner. Was that the first you knew or had become aware of the fact that Lee Harvey Oswald was living in Russia?

Mrs. Evans. Yes; now, it was undoubtedly in the newspapers and on TV, but I sometimes get to doing a million things, and I don't get a chance to read the newspaper. I just skip it. And if I don't get around to it, I skip the news on TV too, even the late news. So a lot of times I don't know what's going on, but she said, "Did you hear about Lee?" and I said, "No, what about Lee?" and she said, "You didn't see it in the paper? Lee has done gone and given up his United States citizenship," and I said, "Poor Marguerite; that's terrible; I feel so sorry for her."

Mr. Jenner. You knew Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mrs. Evans. Yes; I knew him very well. I knew his mother before he was born, and I knew him since he was a little tyke. Lillian took care of him for a while, you see. She had two boys, one by her first marriage, and it wasn't her fault that they got a divorce. He didn't want the child, and he wanted her to destroy the child.

Mr. Jenner. When you say she had two boys, you are talking about Marguerite Oswald, is that right?

Mrs. Evans. Yes; Marguerite had a terrificly sad life, and she was just a wonderful, gorgeous wife. She married this John Pic and had his boy, and he didn't want any children at all, and so she left him and went to live with her sister, and Oswald, I think, was a Virginia Life Insurance salesman. He collected insurance from the sister. They lived right off of City Park, and so one day Margie was strolling with Robert in front of City Park, and Oswald bumped into them, and he asked them how about him riding them home.

Mr. Jenner. What did she say to him?

47 Mrs. Evans. Well, she let him. You see, he had been collecting insurance at the house, and had spoken to Margie.

Mr. Jenner. At whose house?

Mrs. Evans. At the Murret house, and he had played with the baby. No, let's see, John was the baby at that time, and she was separated or divorced from her husband. I forget which now. But he supported John.

Mr. Jenner. You mean Mr. Pic supported John? You are talking about John Pic now?

Mrs. Evans. Yes; he continued to support him and he sent a baby crib, and he did everything like that, but he didn't want to live with her because of the child, so John never did see his father until he was, oh, about 18 years old, or something like that, so that's why those two boys were so close in age, you see, because she met Oswald, and he started taking her out. He asked her if she would go out to dinner with him, and she had been away from her husband for a year and a half or 2 years, and so she did, and then she married him, and she had this baby right away, which is Robert, and they bought a home out around Alvar somewhere. She never told me all this now; some of it I heard from other sources, like her sister and others, but she did tell me a lot of it, because we got to be real good friends.

She bought that home, and they had the two boys, and they were very happy, and then one day he was out mowing the lawn, and he had this terrific pain, and she was several months pregnant with Lee. She called the doctor right away, but before the doctor could get there, the man was dead. He had a blood clot, so he left her with two babies and one on the way.

Now, he left her with $10,000, I think, in insurance, so she sold her home, and by that time her two boys were old enough, so she put them in this home—Evangeline, I think it is, but I'm not sure about that, and she bought a home over on—what's the name of that street back off of St. Claude?

Mr. Jenner. Bartholomew?

Mrs. Evans. Yes; I guess that's it. Now, she put the boys in this home.

Mr. Jenner. The Bethlehem home?

Mrs. Evans. Yes, Bethlehem; that's it. That's when I became friendly with her again. She was living with her sister for a while, and Lee was with her, and the two older boys were at the home. She was paying her sister board. But now after her husband died, she went to work, and she had a woman taking care of the little boy.

Mr. Jenner. You mean Lee?

Mrs. Evans. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Why did she live there, do you know?

Mrs. Evans. You mean on Bartholomew Street?

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mrs. Evans. Well, it was cheaper. She bought a cheaper home. She had lived on Alvar after she married Oswald. But after Oswald's death she moved to Bartholomew. Wait a minute—I might be getting those streets confused. No, I guess that's right. Anyway, when Oswald died he left her this $10,000 in insurance, and now I don't know whether the home was completely paid for or not, but she immediately put these boys in that home and went to work.

Mr. Jenner. Is it your information that she immediately went to work rather than try to live for a while without working?

Mrs. Evans. She might have lived for a month or two, or something, without working, because I wasn't in contact with her, you see, but she had got this couple to come and stay with Lee, and someone said——

Mr. Jenner. What couple was that?

Mrs. Evans. I don't know what couple it was—somebody; she had put an ad in the paper or something—some young couple. I don't know their names. She said people told her that when Lee was in the high chair, that he used to cry a lot, and they thought they were whipping little Lee, so she came home unexpectedly one night, and the child had welts on his legs, and she told them to get out and get out now.

So then from there she bought another house and sold that, and—now, this is48 what she told me; she told me that she bought this little double house, and she ran a sweet shop for a while in the front room there.

Mr. Jenner. She told you that she sold that house and bought a double?

Mrs. Evans. Yes, as I recall, she did.

Mr. Jenner. What's a "double"?

Mrs. Evans. That's really two houses, side by side; you have a door here and a door here, two entrances. They call them flats or duplexes some places, but we call them doubles.

Mr. Jenner. O.K. I just wanted to make sure the record is clear on that.

Mrs. Evans. She bought that little house, and they moved in there with her three children.

Mr. Jenner. Was that over at 831 Pauline Street?

Mrs. Evans. Well, that sounds like the address. I never went there myself. I don't even know where Pauline Street is, to tell you the truth. It's downtown some place. Then she left there, and Lee, I think, still was with the aunt, and the two boys were down at the other place—that home, and she got this job managing the hosiery store on Canal Street, and that's when I started seeing her again, and that was between 1939 and 1940, somewhere in there; around in there—the early 1940's, I would say.

Mr. Jenner. At that time she was living where now?

Mrs. Evans. She was living with her sister then, I think, and Lee was with her, and the two boys were boarding at the Bethlehem Home. She would go down on Sundays to see her two boys.

Mr. Jenner. How long did she remain with her sister?

Mrs. Evans. Well, I don't know how long she had been with her sister, but after she took this position, she finally went to Texas, and I don't know—I couldn't tell you how long, because I just started seeing her, well, we would see each other on Saturday afternoon or Sunday, something like that, you know, just go around a bit together.

Mr. Jenner. How old was Lee at about that time, about 3 or 2, or what?

Mrs. Evans. He was 3 or 4 years old then.

Mr. Jenner. He eventually was placed in the Bethlehem Home also, wasn't he?

Mrs. Evans. Well, she might have finally got him in, because her sister, as you know, had a big family of her own, and I think maybe she might have finally put him in there too.

You see, they only take them at these places after a certain age, generally about three, I think. They have to be trained and all, and that's why Lee was always with her before that, and all her love, I think, she dumped on Lee after her husband died.

You know, she felt awful sorry for Lee, because he never knew his father. He was born after his father died, and he was his baby, and she always sort of felt sorry for Lee for that reason, I think, and sort of leaned toward Lee. She felt sorry for Lee because he never knew his father, I think, just as any mother would.

Mr. Jenner. Now, we have information that from sometime in 1939 to 1941, she resided on Alvar Street in New Orleans; does that square with your recollection?

Mrs. Evans. Well, Alvar, that was where she had her home, wasn't it, on Alvar?

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mrs. Evans. I was told it was in that subdivision.

Mr. Jenner. And do you recall her selling that house?

Mrs. Evans. No; she told me she sold it, but I wasn't too friendly with her at the time, and I didn't know anything about that. I was working, and I didn't play cards then, you see.

She was a friend of a friend of mine actually, that I played cards with, and I wasn't too friendly with the girl at first, but only through cards, but at the time I was sorry for her when I first learned what her husband had done to her, but later on I lost contact with her all the way up till just about the time she went to Texas, or maybe it was about a year before she went to Texas. It's49 hard to recall those dates, to tell what year this happened and what year that happened.

Mr. Jenner. That would have been around 1945, or 1944, somewhere in there?

Mrs. Evans. Yes; along in there.

Mr. Jenner. Do you recall her living on Atlantic Avenue in Algiers, La.?

Mrs. Evans. Atlantic Avenue?

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mrs. Evans. No; I don't.

Mr. Jenner. But you do recall a period when her two older boys, John and Robert, were in the Bethlehem Orphans School?

Mrs. Evans. Oh, yes; I went there once with her, in fact.

Mr. Jenner. At that time she was with the Murrets, is that right, Mrs. Evans?

Mrs. Evans. That's right.

Mr. Jenner. Then she moved to Texas?

Mrs. Evans. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. With her children, of course?

Mrs. Evans. That's right.

Mr. Jenner. What occurred about that time?

Mrs. Evans. She married again.

Mr. Jenner. She married, and was that why she moved to Texas?

Mrs. Evans. That's why. She married a very, very fine man.

Mr. Jenner. Do you recall what his name was?

Mrs. Evans. You know it; I will give it to you—Ekdahl.

Mr. Jenner. Do you know how to spell that, Ekdahl?

Mrs. Evans. I don't remember, but I knew her during that period all right.

Mr. Jenner. Did you become acquainted with him, Mr. Ekdahl?

Mrs. Evans. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. What kind of man was he, Mrs. Evans?

Mrs. Evans. He was very high caliber, a very fine man, and he had a very fine position. The papers said she was dragged from pillar to post, but that wasn't true. It was his work that took them to places. That's why she went to New York, because of his position. He didn't drag her from pillar to post at all. I don't know what happened to them then, because I didn't see them again. He died, and that's when she moved back to New Orleans, and they stayed in my apartment building. Now, I visited her in Dallas, and I knew Eddie Ekdahl.

Mr. Jenner. Did you know Mr. Ekdahl before he married her?

Mrs. Evans. I did.

Mr. Jenner. That was his second marriage, isn't that right?

Mrs. Evans. Yes; so she said. He had been separated from his wife for many years, but had never gotten a divorce, I don't think, so then he did get a divorce and married Margie.

Mr. Jenner. Do you remember where he was from originally?

Mrs. Evans. Boston, I think.

Mr. Jenner. Is it your recollection that they moved to Dallas, Tex.?

Mrs. Evans. They did.

Mr. Jenner. Did you visit them in Dallas?

Mrs. Evans. I did.

Mr. Jenner. Was that address 4801 Victor?

Mrs. Evans. I don't remember that, because I went there with a friend of mine, to the Baker Hotel, I think it was. I used to go around with this friend of mine. She was with Mary Douglas Perfumes, and Margie was living there with her husband at the time, and the two children, when I visited her.

Mr. Jenner. Her husband and her two children?

Mrs. Evans. Well, her three children, I mean, were with her.

Mr. Jenner. Including Lee?

Mrs. Evans. Yes; I went and stayed a few days with her, but the address I don't remember. We didn't correspond during those years, but that could have been the address. It was a duplex, I know, and she lived downstairs, and she rented out the upstairs.

Mr. Jenner. At that time Lee was around 6 years old, is that right?

50 Mrs. Evans. Yes; just about at the kindergarten stage. Let's see—yes, she lived downstairs, and she rented out the upstairs.

Mr. Jenner. When you visited there, were the two boys, John and Robert, living at the home?

Mrs. Evans. Yes; they all lived together.

Mr. Jenner. And Lee, too?

Mrs. Evans. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. The nature of Mr. Ekdahl's work was such that he had to travel, you say?

Mrs. Evans. Oh, yes; he had to do a lot of traveling. I think he was a geologist; that's what my husband said he was. He was with some big company that he was top man with, and he was a good deal older than Margie, and a very fine, handsome, big man, but he had a blood clot, and that's how they got to be married as quick as they did, because of that. You see, he was at the Roosevelt Hotel, and he had nobody, and he had this blood clot and everything, and at that time he was taking Margie out, and he wasn't too well a man because of this blood clot and all, but he wanted to marry Margie, and so she married him, and they went from Dallas to, I think, San Antonio, and then I think they went to New York, and sometime after that, of course, Margie came down here, and she took an apartment with me.

Mr. Jenner. Before we get into that, Mrs. Evans, if you don't mind, let's go back a bit and see if I have this clear in my mind. You say you visited them once in Texas, is that right?

Mrs. Evans. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Other than that visit, you had no contact with her, that is, visually, in person, while she was in Texas?

Mrs. Evans. No; I didn't. Now, after she was married to Ekdahl and went to Covington, she had her other two boys with her. This was in the summertime, of course. She had them in the boarding school over there, even after she married Ekdahl, this was. She kept Lee with her all the time she was married to Ekdahl, of course, so that they would all three be together on these business trips he had to take, and they would stay in the best hotels, of course, and they had the best of everything, but that didn't seem to work out too well, having Lee with them all the time like that.

Mr. Jenner. This was when she was married to Mr. Ekdahl, that she had the boys over at Covington?

Mrs. Evans. Yes. Her two older sons were in boarding school, and in the summer they would all be together over at this place in Covington.

Mr. Jenner. Was this in 1946?

Mrs. Evans. Well, I don't know just what year that would have been, but I would say it was around there. I don't remember the exact years for a lot of this stuff, but I can just tell you the way I remember it happening.

Mr. Jenner. That's all right. Just go on the way you have been. The pieces will all fit together eventually, and that's what the Commission wants before it brings this investigation to its conclusion.

Mrs. Evans. I have had so many people pass through my life, it would take something to remember all of those details.

Mr. Jenner. Did you see the boys during that period?

Mrs. Evans. Oh, yes; she would visit me for about 3 or 4 days, I remember one time, and Lee was about 7 years old then. He was a little fellow.

Mr. Jenner. What was your impression of Lee as of that time, Mrs. Evans?

Mrs. Evans. Well, I would say Lee was a spoiled little boy, because naturally his mother kept him, and I think Margie would have had a better life if she had put him in boarding school with the other two boys, because then she would have lived with Ekdahl. I understand they were separated and divorced before he died, but you know how a mother can throw her entire life on a child and spoil that child and let the child ruin her life for her, and Margie clung to Lee regardless, but in that respect she was a wonderful mother. You couldn't find a better woman. Of course, when she married Ekdahl, she didn't want him to support her children. She tried to support them herself.

Mr. Jenner. That was her own decision?

Mrs. Evans. Oh, yes; it was her decision. She wanted Ekdahl to take51 her and Lee, and she kept Lee with them all the time, and I think that's one of the things that contributed to their divorce. She was too close to Lee all the time, and I don't guess Ekdahl liked that too much.

Now, when Margie lived in Dallas, she kept her three boys with her, but after she married Ekdahl, she put the two boys in boarding school, and she still kept Lee with them. Of course, they had to leave Dallas on these trips that Mr. Ekdahl made in connection with his work, but Lee would be with them every time, and like I said, it hurt their marriage because they never could be alone. Lee was spoiled. He was just a spoiled boy. I'll put it this way: He was her baby, and she loved him to death, and she spoiled him to death. One of the older boys, or maybe both of them—I don't remember, but I think they both went into the Marines——

Mr. Jenner. Well, one of them went into the Coast Guard.

Mrs. Evans. Well, they went into the service, and both of her older boys were very, very fine boys. John Pic was a lovely boy, but of course he never did see his father. His father never did care to see the child, the way I understand it, and at 18 I think he quit supporting him, or something like that. Now, when Margie decided to come back to New Orleans, I think she came here from San Antonio or Fort Worth, one of those places, and she went to her sister's——

Mr. Jenner. Would you wait a minute now, ma'am? Was Marguerite working at that time, either in Texas, or did she go to work after she came back to New Orleans?

Mrs. Evans. Well, she might have tried her hand at real estate at one time, and of course she had worked in different department stores, and at the time I caught up with her and ran into her, I think she said she was working then for the Pittsburgh Plate Glass Co. She said she answered a blind ad in the paper, and she got this job, and she opened Jean's Hoisery Shop, and that's when we would meet and go to lunch on a Saturday afternoon, and we got to be friendly.

Mr. Jenner. And you were working at that time also?

Mrs. Evans. Yes, sir; I was in the government then. I am an accountant, and I was with the government. We would meet, like on Thursday evenings and have dinner, and shop around, and on Saturday afternoon, usually at those times, and we became pretty friendly again, but then of course she went back to Texas.

I used to travel with this friend of mine who was with Mary Douglas Perfumes, and she traveled out of California, and she was going to be in Dallas for a show—some kind of display show, I guess it was, and I went with her, and during that trip I guess I stayed about a week with Margie.

Mr. Jenner. What kind of housekeeper was Margie?

Mrs. Evans. A very good housekeeper, very tasty; she could take anything and make something out of it, and something beautiful. She had a lot of natural talent that way, and she was not lazy. She would work with things by the hour for her children, and she kept a very neat house, and she was always so lovely herself. That's why, when I saw her on TV, after all of this happened, she looked so old and haggard, and I said, "That couldn't be Margie," but of course it was, but if you had known Margie before all this happened, you would see what I mean. She was beautiful. She had beautiful wavy hair.

Mr. Jenner. What about Lee?

Mrs. Evans. Well, Lee was a smart boy. He was no dummy. He was a bit of a bookworm, I would say.

Mr. Jenner. Tell me more about that.

Mrs. Evans. Well, he had hair like his mother for example, but he was a loner. That's what the children all said, but of course, I didn't pay too much attention to that, but he didn't bring boys in the house, I mean, and he would always seem to prefer being by himself.

Mr. Jenner. He wouldn't bring boys into the house?

Mrs. Evans. No; he never did, that I know of. He would come home, and he would get his books and his music, and then when he wanted supper, or something to eat, he would scream like a bull. He would holler, "Maw, where's my supper?" Some of the time Margie would be downstairs talking to me or52 something, and when he would holler at her, she would jump up right away and go and get him something to eat. Her whole life was wrapped up in that boy, and she spoiled him to death. Lee was about 13 about that time, I think, along in there.

Mr. Jenner. Was this while he was living with his mother at one of your apartments?

Mrs. Evans. Yes, this was the last time I knew anything about Lee, when they lived at my apartment.

Mr. Jenner. Was this after or before she had gone to New York City?

Mrs. Evans. Oh, this was all after her trip to New York. She wasn't with Ekdahl any more when she came back here.

Mr. Jenner. I wonder if you would hold that for a minute now. I would like to have you give me your impression of Lee up to the time they returned from New York?

Mrs. Evans. Well, I couldn't give you too much about the child, because I didn't know him too much. He seemed just like a normal boy. I mean, he didn't seem to be any different than his brothers, as far as that goes, but the way he kept to himself just wasn't normal, I don't think. I guess that's why they called him a loner, because he was alone so much. He didn't seem to want to be with any other children. Now, when she was over in Covington in the summer months, she would be there the full 3 months, I think, and they seemed to be a very happy family. They would go swimming and eat watermelon, and they had a couple of dogs, I think, in the backyard, and they would just have a good time. I would say they were really a happy family in those days.

Mr. Jenner. They were a happy family?

Mrs. Evans. As far as I could see, they were very happy, very closely knit, very much in love with each other, and these boys knew that their mother was putting them through school, and giving them what they needed, as best she could. She was a very good provider for her children, and a very decent woman. I mean, she wasn't a loose woman at all. She was very decent, a very fine woman.

Mr. Jenner. Well, that squares with everything we have found. I don't think any mother could do more than she did for them, as far as we have been able to find out.

Mrs. Evans. That's right. Nobody could have done any more for their children than she did, I mean, with what she had to work with. She was never well off, I mean, financially. She always worked and saved and made do the best she could.

Mr. Jenner. When she moved to New York City, did you lose touch with Margie then?

Mrs. Evans. Yes; I lost complete touch with Margie.

Mr. Jenner. Did you hear from her while she was in New York?

Mrs. Evans. No; I don't think so. She might have written me a postal card or something, but I don't think so.

Mr. Jenner. Then the first time that you again began seeing her was when she came back to New Orleans, is that right?

Mrs. Evans. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Did you hear from her or hear about her while she was living in Texas, before she went to New York?

Mrs. Evans. Oh, yes; like I said, I was over there in Dallas with her for a week, and I kept pretty well in touch with what she was doing. For a time she lived—what's the name of that little town?

Mr. Jenner. Do you mean Benbrook?

Mrs. Evans. It could have been that. Anyway, I heard from her again, that she was traveling a lot with her husband. She was still living with Ekdahl then. They were living in hotels and traveling, and Lee was right with them all the time.

Mr. Jenner. She kept Lee with her on all these trips with Mr. Ekdahl?

Mrs. Evans. As far as I know, she did, yes.

Mr. Jenner. As far as you know, did she have Lee with her all the time?

Mrs. Evans. I don't think that she ever parted with Lee for a minute. If53 she did, I don't know about it, but when she came back, the way she talked, I figured that Lee was with them the whole time, and they had lived in hotels and things like that while Mr. Ekdahl was traveling.

Mr. Jenner. Do you recall when her marriage to Ekdahl took place, Mrs. Evans?

Mrs. Evans. Well, it was when she went to Texas, just about at that time.

Mr. Jenner. Around 1945, would that have been, in maybe 1944?

Mrs. Evans. Along in there; yes. She married him, I think, in Dallas, Tex., or maybe it was Fort Worth. I can't recall that for sure.

Mr. Jenner. But he had been here in New Orleans, and that's when they struck up this acquaintanceship, here in New Orleans, is that right?

Mrs. Evans. That's right.

Mr. Jenner. She said that he had had a heart attack, is that right?

Mrs. Evans. Yes; she did.

Mr. Jenner. And he was courting her during this time?

Mrs. Evans. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. His sister came down from Boston, is that right, to sort of see how he was getting along here, is that correct?

Mrs. Evans. That's right. I guess that's what prompted her to come down here, because he had had this trouble, and I guess she was concerned about him.

Mr. Jenner. And that courtship between him and Marguerite ripened into marriage then; is that right?

Mrs. Evans. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Did Ekdahl's sister approve of Marguerite?

Mrs. Evans. Oh, yes; she wanted her to marry Ekdahl, and before she went back to Boston, Margie made her a promise that she would look after him.

Mr. Jenner. Then Margie moved to Texas with Mr. Ekdahl; is that right?

Mrs. Evans. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And you say you visited them over there, in Dallas; is that right?

Mrs. Evans. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. Jenner. And you think you might have heard from her at different times when she was traveling with her husband?

Mrs. Evans. That's right—you know, postal cards and such.

Mr. Jenner. And then you didn't hear from her for a while; is that right?

Mrs. Evans. That's right.

Mr. Jenner. And then you said you heard from her again?

Mrs. Evans. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Would you give me the circumstances of that now, please?

Mrs. Evans. Well, she called me, most likely. She was at her sister's. She was looking for an apartment.

Mr. Jenner. Excuse me, but when you say "her sister's," who do you mean?

Mrs. Evans. Lillian Murret. She had only that one sister here. She was a good many years older than Margie. Margie was the baby of the family. She took care of her father, that is, until his death, and she kept house for her father, too. I guess there is about 10 years difference between the two. That's why I guess they have not been too close. But anyway, she called me and asked about an apartment, and I told her I could give her an apartment, and that I would let her have it cheaper than I would somebody else that I didn't know. Now, they didn't have any furniture, but there were a few pieces left in the apartment, and her sister provided some things and I found a few things for her, so she made out with that.

Mr. Jenner. Do you remember what year that was?

Mrs. Evans. Well, I remodeled that apartment about 10 years ago, so I would say that that was around 1954, along in there, in the early spring, I think it was.

Mr. Jenner. In the early spring?

Mrs. Evans. Well, it might have been a little later. It could have been in May or June of 1954, but possibly a little earlier than that. I can't remember that well enough to be definite on the month.

Mr. Jenner. Where was this apartment?

54 Mrs. Evans. 1454 St. Mary Street, apartment 6, but now finally Margie decided that she couldn't afford that apartment, and moved, despite the fact that I was renting it to her for less than I would have anybody else, and I told her that.

She came in one day and told me, "Myrtle, I am going to give the apartment up." She told me that she had seen a house out around St. Bernard that would be cheaper. She said she had rode around and looked at the house, and she thought that she would take it.

Mr. Jenner. She had an automobile?

Mrs. Evans. No; she rode the bus out there.

Mr. Jenner. She had no complaints about your apartment, did she? She just had found a cheaper place to move to?

Mrs. Evans. Oh, she was perfectly happy in the apartment. She said she liked it, but that she just couldn't afford it.

Mr. Jenner. Who else was in the apartment besides Marguerite?

Mrs. Evans. Just her and Lee.

Mr. Jenner. You did see Lee after they returned from New York?

Mrs. Evans. Oh, yes; they lived at my house for, oh, I guess about 6 months.

Mr. Jenner. Including Lee?

Mrs. Evans. Oh, yes.

Mr. Jenner. She and Lee lived in your home for 6 months?

Mrs. Evans. In this apartment, yes.

Mr. Jenner. In the No. 6 apartment?

Mrs. Evans. Yes; you see, I had this great big house with about 27 rooms or more.

Mr. Jenner. It was just one big building; is that right?

Mrs. Evans. Yes; but it was converted into modern apartments, and they took one of them, you see—one of the smaller apartments. I had had one tenant prior to her, so she was the second tenant in this little apartment.

Mr. Jenner. And that was at 1454 St. Mary Street?

Mrs. Evans. Correct.

Mr. Jenner. So she and her son Lee occupied that apartment for approximately 6 months, is that right?

Mrs. Evans. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And that was in 1954, you say?

Mrs. Evans. Yes; maybe not exactly that year, but along about there.

Mr. Jenner. Did you get to see both of them frequently?

Mrs. Evans. Practically every day.

Mr. Jenner. All right. Now, tell me about this period while they lived at your home. Just transport yourself back to 10 years ago. What did Lee Oswald look like?

Mrs. Evans. What did he look like?

Mr. Jenner. Yes; and what did he do? What impression did he make on you then, not what you heard, but what you remember now about him?

Mrs. Evans. Well, he was more spoiled.

Mr. Jenner. More than before?

Mrs. Evans. Yes; he had gotten older, and he wanted his way, and he was a teenager then, and like all teenagers, he was very difficult. Of course, I guess all teenagers are that way, because they are not yet grown and they are not a child either. The best of them are very trying, and it is hard to keep them in line. In that respect Lee wasn't any different than any other teenaged boy, I guess.

Mr. Jenner. Now, this was the period after which Lee returned from New York; is that right?

Mrs. Evans. Yes; after they came here from New York.

Mr. Jenner. With his mother?

Mrs. Evans. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. What did they say to you as to why they returned from New York and came to New Orleans?

Mrs. Evans. Well, I don't know that they said anything, but it seems to me now that they came right from Texas over to New Orleans then, not right from55 New York. I could be mistaken there, but I think they went back to Texas from New York.

Maybe they did come right from New York, but I can't remember that far back. I know that they had divorced, and although no one told me, I just put two and two together, and it was my opinion that Lee evidently was just so spoiled and demanded so much of his mother's attention that they didn't get along—I mean, her and Ekdahl, because of Lee. Now, that's my opinion. She never told me why.

Mr. Jenner. That's just your surmise?

Mrs. Evans. Yes, sir; I can't help feeling that if she had put Lee in a boarding school, she might have hung onto her meal ticket, and considering Mr. Ekdahl's condition and everything, if all that hadn't happened, she would have been sitting on top of the world. She wouldn't have had another worry in her life, as far as money goes, but instead her children came first, I mean, Lee. She just poured out all her love on him, it seemed like.

Mr. Jenner. Did she ever say anything to you about her experiences in New York City?

Mrs. Evans. No.

Mr. Jenner. She never said anything to you that would have given you an indication as to whether she had come from New York rather than Texas, or vice versa?

Mrs. Evans. No; not that I recall, but it is my distinct feeling that she stayed in New York awhile and then moved to Texas again, and then over to New Orleans—Fort Worth, I think, but I can't say that for sure.

Mr. Jenner. Did she say anything to you about any trouble that Lee had had in school in New York City?

Mrs. Evans. No; she never did. But I knew Ekdahl, and I knew he was a man that was set in his ways. He was older than Margie, and he wanted, evidently, a wife. He wanted her to be with him evidently, and if you've got a kid dragging behind, you know it makes a difference, but now whether that caused the break or not, I don't know. I couldn't tell you that.

Mr. Jenner. The point I am getting at is, she didn't say anything to you about any problem or difficulties she had had with Lee in New York City?

Mrs. Evans. None whatever.

Mr. Jenner. You were aware that she had been in New York City, of course?

Mrs. Evans. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. But she didn't say anything to you about it?

Mrs. Evans. No.

Mr. Jenner. Now, at that time Lee was about 15 years old; is that right?

Mrs. Evans. He was, somewhere around there—maybe 13 or 14. I don't know exactly.

Mr. Jenner. At any rate, you had a period here of several years between the time you saw him and he lived in your apartment with his mother, and the time you had previously seen him, so could you compare what he was like and how he acted when you saw him in 1954, as against when you had seen him before that?

Mrs. Evans. Well, like I said, he was more spoiled than he was when he was younger. He was just a little boy when I first saw him, and this time he was quite grown up, a teenager, like I said, so I would say he was a lot more difficult this time to understand or control than he was when he was younger.

The main thing that seems to stand out in his conduct was the way he demanded to be fed when he would come from school. Margie would be downstairs maybe, talking to me or something, and he would come to the head of the stairs and yell for her to come up and fix him something to eat. He would just stand up there and yell, "Maw, how about fixing me something to eat?" and she would jump up right away and go running upstairs to get something for him.

Now, he liked records. He didn't want to see any television, but he would lock himself up in his bedroom sometimes and play these records, and listen to the radio, and read. He was a hard one to try to figure out. But other than that, he was, I would say, just an average, spoiled teenage kid that wanted what he wanted. There are very few of them that aren't that way.

Mr. Jenner. Would you say he was more spoiled than the average teenager?

Mrs. Evans. Well, he was spoiled maybe more because he didn't have a father56 to pull him down a bit. When you are raising a child alone, it's a hard row—I mean, with just the mother, because, you know, they are getting bigger all the time, and a woman can't keep control over them like a man can.

Mr. Jenner. You mean physically?

Mrs. Evans. Yes; physically.

Mr. Jenner. Did she register him in school here in New Orleans when they came to live in your apartment?

Mrs. Evans. Well, I don't know who registered him. That I don't know.

Mr. Jenner. But he did go to school?

Mrs. Evans. Oh, yes; he went to school.

Mr. Jenner. Which school was that?

Mrs. Evans. That was Beauregard, and I might say that she used her sister's address so she could get him in that school. It's a good school, and she wanted him to go there, and also at that time I believe she was living with her sister, so that was in that school district. That's the way I understand it anyway. I think there has been some confusion about that address that was given at the school, but it is my understanding that that's why she used it. If she hadn't used her sister's address, he couldn't have gone to Beauregard probably, I mean, if she had moved to another district. So since she wanted him in Beauregard, that was the easiest way to do it.

Mr. Jenner. In order to get him in Beauregard, she used her sister's address, and that was the reason, as you understand it; is that right?

Mrs. Evans. Yes; that was a good school. I guess it still is, but she wanted him in there. Otherwise he would have had to go to another school.

Mr. Jenner. That's Beauregard Junior High School; is that right?

Mrs. Evans. Yes; and, like I said, a good school; a very fine school.

Mr. Jenner. Was Lee a good student, according to information you received in that regard, if you did receive any such information?

Mrs. Evans. Well, I never saw his report cards, but I think he was a pretty good student. I really couldn't tell you that.

Mr. Jenner. Did you notice during this period that you had this recent, close acquaintanceship with him, that he was still retiring, and that he was inclined to be by himself?

Mrs. Evans. Yes; he liked books, and he liked music, and he would come home from school, of course, a couple of hours before Margie, and he would have crossword puzzles and books and music, and he seemed to entertain himself very well.

Mr. Jenner. He didn't go out and play with the other children?

Mrs. Evans. No; he didn't.

Mr. Jenner. Now, they had this change in 1955 from 1454 to 1452 St. Mary. Was that in the same building?

Mrs. Evans. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Was that a different apartment, then?

Mrs. Evans. I will tell you what happened there. There was this young couple that wanted that apartment, and I still hear from them. She sold them her furniture. They were the tenants after her, and she sold them some of the things in the apartment, because at that time she told me she was going to take this house way up on the other side of town, and she came back the next day and told me that she changed her mind and wanted her apartment back, but I told her that I had already rented her apartment to this young couple. I said, "Margie, what happened to the house you were going to get?" and she said, "I looked it over," and she said, "It's too far from a grocery store. I have no way of getting my groceries; too many blocks to walk, and it's too inconvenient."

I told her, "Well, I've already rented the apartment to this young couple," and she said, "I want to keep my apartment," and I said, "But, Margie, I have rented the apartment already, and you even sold them some furniture," and she said, "Well, they can have the furniture," but she said, "Just tell them you can't let them have the apartment; that I have got to keep it."

Well, that was how we sort of fell out, was over this deal. I told her, I said, "Margie, I just can't do that." To tell you the truth, the way Lee was acting up and all—he was very noisy, I didn't particularly want to do it. I knew, in the first place, that the girl simply couldn't afford it, and it would be just a matter of months until she would be behind in her rent and everything. I think she was57 already about a month in arrears on the rent, and I just figured it would be better if I didn't give her the apartment back, so I told her that I couldn't do it, because I had already rented it to this couple. I knew that, even if she could pay the rent for that month, it would be just a matter of time until she couldn't make it, and she would be struggling all the time and trying to make it, and it would maybe be more hard feelings if I let it go on that way, so I decided that it would be better to let it go the way it was going. It seemed to be the best way out of it. I thought we would be better friends maybe if they would go ahead and move now, rather than later, so I told her, I said, "Margie, if you want, you can move next door, and it will be a little cheaper," and so, they did move next door. Now, I had told her that I was going to fix up that little apartment she had occupied, just to sort of let her down easy—you know, have it painted, and so forth, so she went ahead and moved next door for a while.

Mr. Jenner. Was that 1452 St. Mary; this place next door?

Mrs. Evans. Yes; right next door. You see—I think I have skipped something. I told her that I wanted to get the apartment that she had been in fixed up, and that's how I talked her into taking the place next door, but then she started complaining and saying I was charging her too much rent for this place next door, and I wasn't getting the apartment fixed up that she had been in, and in the meantime Lee had gotten to the point where he was noisier and more determined with his mother, and it was getting a little unbearable.

Mr. Jenner. What do you mean, he was getting "more determined?" In what respects was he more determined?

Mrs. Evans. Well, he would yell, "Maw, come and fix my supper," and he had a loud voice, and I could hear him more and more up there, and it got to be quite disturbing, actually. It seemed to be a situation that was getting worse all the time; so I thought maybe it would be better if I didn't have them around; so, since the apartment wasn't fixed up anyway, and she wasn't very happy next door, she up and moved, and that's when she went to Exchange Alley.

Mr. Jenner. O.K. That was in April of 1955; is that right?

Mrs. Evans. Yes, and I never saw her after that.

Mr. Jenner. You never saw her again?

Mrs. Evans. No; I didn't.

Mr. Jenner. You didn't see her at Exchange Alley?

Mrs. Evans. No.

Mr. Jenner. She never came to visit you?

Mrs. Evans. No; she was angry about the apartment, because I made her give it up. I mean I wouldn't give it back to her after she moved away. I don't think she ever got over that.

Mr. Jenner. She didn't come to visit you any more at all?

Mrs. Evans. No; she didn't.

Mr. Jenner. She didn't get in touch with you at all?

Mrs. Evans. No.

Mr. Jenner. When was the next time you heard from or heard about, Margie or Lee?

Mrs. Evans. The next thing I heard, they had moved back to Texas. They had left town.

Mr. Jenner. Where did you hear that?

Mrs. Evans. Well, her sister, Lillian, I saw her in Holmes or—let's see, maybe it was at the Fontainbleau, at a card party we were having—yes; I think that was it; she asked me if I had seen Margie, and I said, "No; I haven't seen or heard from Margie," and that's when she told me that she had heard Margie had moved back to Texas. I didn't know that at all. I had heard from several people that they had seen Margie downtown. She worked at three or four different places—you know, hosiery, and so forth, and someone would run into me every once in a while that I knew, and would say they had seen Margie downtown at some store or other, but I didn't see her, and then the next thing I knew she was supposed to be back in Texas, and then I ran into Lillian again later and she told me—this was at the Fontainbleau. Now, I have that straight. She told me then about the trouble Lee was in.

Mr. Jenner. Where did you run into Lillian at that time?

Mrs. Evans. At a benefit card party.

58 Mr. Jenner. At the Fontainbleau?

Mrs. Evans. That's right.

Mr. Jenner. And what did Lillian tell you about Lee on that occasion?

Mrs. Evans. She told me that Lee was in Russia.

Mr. Jenner. That Lee had defected to Russia?

Mrs. Evans. That's right.

Mr. Jenner. Then, when was the next thing you heard about any of the Oswald family?

Mrs. Evans. Well, that was when Lee came to town, and they took an apartment up on Magazine Street. I can't remember that date now, but Lee got here a day or two before his wife came in.

Mr. Jenner. Would that have been in May of 1963?

Mrs. Evans. Well, I don't remember the date, but it seems like it was about the middle of May; maybe about May 16, or somewhere close to that.

Mr. Jenner. Was that when he took the apartment at 4905 Magazine Street?

Mrs. Evans. Yes. Was that May 16?

Mr. Jenner. No; I think it was a little earlier than that, according to our information.

Mrs. Evans. Well, whatever date that was, that was the next time I saw him. I don't know if it was April or May, or even March; I don't know what date it was, but I got the apartment for him, and he moved in on the day he rented it, or the next day, I think.

Mr. Jenner. He moved in on the 10th; would that be about right; the day after he rented the apartment?

Mrs. Evans. Well, if he rented it on the 9th, then that would be about right. He moved in the day after, I think it was.

Mr. Jenner. On the 9th of May?

Mrs. Evans. I guess so; yes. That's when I saw him, on the 9th of May, and then he moved in on the 10th.

Mr. Jenner. Tell me the circumstances that led to his renting that apartment, Mrs. Evans.

Mrs. Evans. Well, the doorbell rang, and my husband hadn't gone to work. He says he recognized him then, but I don't remember it that way, but anyway this young man was at the door, and he said he wanted an apartment, and did I have an apartment to rent, and I didn't have anything in this building, but I told him about another building I was fixing up, and I told him I might be able to find something for him, and he told me he had a wife and child over in Texas, and that he was going to bring them over here as soon as he could find an apartment, and that he had to find something right now. He said, "I want something right away."

When we were walking down the steps, I looked at him real hardlike, and I didn't recognize him, but something made me ask him, "I know you, don't I?" and he said, "Sure; I am Lee Oswald; I was just waiting to see when you were going to recognize me." I said, "Lee Oswald, what are you doing in this country? I thought you were in Russia. I thought you had given up your American citizenship and gone behind the Iron Curtain," and he said, "No," he said, "I went over there," he said, "but I didn't give up my citizenship." He said he had been back in the States for quite a while, and that he had brought his Russian wife back with him; so I told him I would help him look for a place; so I rang up this friend of mine, and I asked her, I said, "Vickie, do you happen to know where I can rent an apartment for a young couple with one little baby?" and she said, "Yes; Myrtle, I will take children. This is a little duplex," she said, and she said, "This is a nice little apartment, and I think they will like it," and I said, "How much?" and she said, "$65," and I said, "Well, he can't spend too much; he is just getting a new job."

Mr. Jenner. What's her name?

Mrs. Evans. Mrs. Maynard—Vickie Maynard.

Mr. Jenner. Do you know her husband's first name?

Mrs. Evans. Charles—Charlie Maynard. She only saw him for about 15 minutes; she has no bearing on this.

Mr. Jenner. Oh, I see.

Mrs. Evans. So she said, "Myrtle, bring him over, and I'll see you in about59 10 minutes," and I said, "We'll come up and see it," so we got in the car and went up and looked at it, but it wasn't too impressive. It was an upper, and they had no laundry facilities, or anything. They did have a little spare room that he could have made into a nursery for the baby, but Lee wasn't satisfied with it after we looked at it. He told me that he would rather get something on the first floor, and with laundry facilities, having the baby and all, so I said, "Well, come on, Lee; I don't know anybody that will take children," I said, "but we will just ride up and down the streets and see what we can find." So we rode in and out and all around Baronne and Napoleon and Louisiana Avenue, and Carondelet, you know, just weaving in and out the streets, and looking for any signs of apartments for rent, so we finally rode down Magazine Street, and I said, "You might as well get as close to your work as possible if you are going to get an apartment."

Mr. Jenner. Had you learned in the meantime that he had a job with the Reily Coffee Co.?

Mrs. Evans. Yes. He told me that he had just got a job with the Reily Coffee Co., and that he wanted his wife to come over here. In fact, he was going to phone her to come over that Saturday, I believe he said.

Mr. Jenner. Did he say what kind of job he had with Reily?

Mrs. Evans. No; he just told me he was going to work for the Reily Coffee Co., and that he had been staying at Lillian's, and that he was anxious for his wife to come to New Orleans, and he said a friend was going to drive her over here; so we were coming down Magazine Street, and all of a sudden he said, "Oh, there's a sign," and I said, "Good," so I pulled up around the corner, and we got out and read the sign, and then we went up and rang the doorbell, and they showed us two apartments, and this one apartment was very good for the money.

It was really the most for your money, I'd say, so I said, "Lee," I said, "this is a very nice apartment for the money; you can't afford too much," and I said, "This is the best you can do," and I said, "If I were you, I would take it," and it had a living room that was a tremendous room.

Mr. Jenner. Larger than this room?

Mrs. Evans. Well, no; not quite that wide, but really long, and they had a bedroom here, and a kitchen that went this way, in other words, and it had a front screened porch, and a yard, and the yard was long, and it had a Page fence.

Mr. Jenner. What kind of fence was that?

Mrs. Evans. A Page fence—an iron fence, like they use around New Orleans. You may call them storm fences, but down here they call them Page fences.

Mr. Jenner. Can you see through them?

Mrs. Evans. Oh, yes; it's just that a child couldn't get in the street. I mean they are good fences, but they are not solid. You can see through them—these sort of diagonals, I guess you would call them. Now, the people that ran the place that he rented it from were sort of caretakers. She lived on one side, and she ran the apartment on the other side that they rented.

Mr. Jenner. What was her name; the lady who lived next door?

Mrs. Evans. I don't know. I had her phone number and her name, and I was going to call her—I did call her once that I remember, but, nevertheless, I told Lee to give her the money for the gas and light, in other words, the deposit, so she could get the electricity turned on, because he wanted his wife to come for Saturday. I think this must have been about Wednesday or Thursday that we were there. He said it would be night before they got there, because this friend of his wife, who talked Russian, was going to bring her over to New Orleans, and bring the baby bed, bring everything, and that way, with the extra room and everything, that the lady could stay overnight, this friend of his wife, so we went on back and got in the car and rode on home, and I think I went out and got some luncheon meat and some things, and I think I ran to the grocery store, too, and got a pound of ham and some stuff, and we sat and ate lunch, and he drank a coke, I think, and we talked, and I asked him, I said, "Well, how does it feel to be back in New Orleans?" and he said, "I have wanted to move back to New Orleans." He said, "New Orleans is my home," and he60 said, "I felt like I just wanted to come back," and he said, "You know, I like the old high ceilings and the trees and the French Quarter, and everything in New Orleans," and he said, "You know, in Russia the buildings are brand new," and we talked a little about Russia—not too much, but he did tell me how men over in Russia can't rent an apartment if they are not married; that they have to live in rooms, so many men to a room; that you have to be married to have an apartment; and he said that they were all modern, and they are given to you by the Government, but that you can only have an apartment if you are married; so we talked some more about Russia, and about him giving up his citizenship and things.

Mr. Jenner. Tell me what he said about giving up his citizenship. I want to hear all about that.

Mrs. Evans. What he told me?

Mr. Jenner. Yes; what did he say about defecting to Russia; anything he said about that?

Mrs. Evans. He said he didn't give up his American citizenship; that that was ridiculous. He told me that he just wanted to see the country over there, and he had gotten work over there, and that he had fallen in love with this girl, and we talked about the difference in the housing here and over there, and he told me that they didn't pay any rent, and they had a modern apartment, I think, about on the fourth floor.

Mr. Jenner. Did he say it was only one room; that there was only one room to this apartment?

Mrs. Evans. Well, he said they had a living room, a bedroom, a dining room.

Mr. Jenner. Is that what he said?

Mrs. Evans. Yes; he said they had a nice place to live over there.

Mr. Jenner. He said that?

Mrs. Evans. Yes; he told me it was an apartment, but he said he had to live with other men in one room prior to the time he was married.

Mr. Jenner. When he said apartment, you assumed that he meant several rooms—a bedroom, kitchen, and so forth; isn't that right?

Mrs. Evans. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. But you don't know that, do you, Mrs. Evans?

Mrs. Evans. Oh, no; I don't know that. I have never been to Russia. All I know is what he told me.

Mr. Jenner. But do you remember him distinctly telling you that his apartment had all of these rooms?

Mrs. Evans. No; I don't remember that. He just said it was a modern apartment. I remember him saying that. It could have been just one room.

Mr. Jenner. It could have been one room?

Mrs. Evans. Well, like I say, I just don't know. He said it was a modern apartment, but other than that I don't know what else he said, I mean, whether he described it any more than that or not, or whether I even asked him any more about it.

Mr. Jenner. But he did use the word "apartment," is that right?

Mrs. Evans. Yes; he said they had an apartment; I remember that very plainly, and he said it was modern, but other than that I don't know.

Mr. Jenner. But he didn't describe the apartment, as far as you can recall?

Mrs. Evans. That's right; I don't remember him doing that.

Mr. Jenner. And he didn't deny at any time to you that he had attempted to defect, but that he had failed?

Mrs. Evans. No; he said he never did.

Mr. Jenner. Did he say he had not attempted to defect?

Mrs. Evans. Well, he said that he did not want to give up his American citizenship, and that he never intended to do so. He said, "I am an American," and he said, "I just went over there, just messing around."

Mr. Jenner. Did he express to you then or at any subsequent time his opinion of Russia and his reaction to the life he had in Russia?

Mrs. Evans. Well, he didn't seem to think they had treated him too bad. I guess he was just a young man in love with this Russian girl, but he did say now that he had decided not to come back to the States until he could bring her with him. He did say that, so from that conversation I gathered that he evidently61 wanted to come back, but he had married into a Russian family, and he had to get out the best way he could.

Now, this Russian woman, I don't know if she was Russian born or not, but the paper said that this woman was a teacher, and that she taught Russian.

Mr. Jenner. You mean Mrs. Paine? You are talking about Mrs. Paine now?

Mrs. Evans. Yes; I didn't even remember her name.

Mr. Jenner. You mean the lady that brought Marina over to New Orleans from Texas?

Mrs. Evans. Yes; the one that brought Marina and the baby to New Orleans.

Mr. Jenner. Well, we will get into that in a minute, Mrs. Evans; she's not a Russian woman, by the way. She's a girl from Columbus, Ohio, that was a Quaker.

Mrs. Evans. Is that right?

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mrs. Evans. Well, she did speak Russian, and she was the lady friend of Marina that was going to bring Marina and the baby to New Orleans.

Mr. Jenner. Well, that's right; she does speak Russian?

Mrs. Evans. He told me that his wife didn't speak American.

Mr. Jenner. Did he say why she didn't speak English?

Mrs. Evans. Why she didn't?

Mr. Jenner. Yes; did he give you any reason for that, why she wasn't learning the English language since she was living over here?

Mrs. Evans. No; he didn't say anything about that.

Mr. Jenner. What impression did you have of Lee as of that visit, Mrs. Evans, because you were with him for quite a while there on this apartment hunting tour? What did you think of Lee?

Mrs. Evans. Well, he was, I would say, sort of arrogant. He seemed to think of himself as being sort of apart from everybody else, and he carried himself so straight, and the way he had of avoiding people, and keeping within himself, and, you know, not talking too much—I noticed all that. I asked him how his mother was, and he said his mother was fine, and I asked him about his brothers, because his brothers were both in Texas, and I believe one of them has a child or two, or something like that, and he said as far as he knew they were all right. We were just sort of talking, you might say, on the surface. You know how you do, riding along, and all the time looking for something—like we were looking for apartment signs. We were getting out and looking, and getting back in, and just driving around looking and talking about things in general.

Mr. Jenner. Now, you used the expression "arrogant." What did you mean by that?

Mrs. Evans. Well, you know—I don't know, just the way he talked, and walked around, I guess. I don't know what gives you that feeling when you are around somebody like that. He was just different.

Mr. Jenner. Do you think he considered himself superior to anybody else, or to his fellow Americans, or anything like that?

Mrs. Evans. Well, I wouldn't say he acted like he was superior to anybody else. He acted normal in that respect, I guess, but he talked about Russia and he talked about the way they lived, and then he said, "It's good to be back in the United States," and he said he would have come back before he did if it had not been for this Russian girl that he married. He said he had been in Texas 8 months then, and I said, "Well, what made you come back to New Orleans?" and he said, "Well, you know, this is my home, and I wanted to see my family."

Mr. Jenner. The Oswald family?

Mrs. Evans. Yes. He said he wanted to see if he could locate any of his family, that he didn't know who any of them were any more.

Mr. Jenner. Did he say anything at all as to whether he was happy or unhappy in Russia?

Mrs. Evans. No; he didn't say anything about that, except he said he would have come back sooner if he hadn't married this girl, and he had to wait until he could bring her out of the country.

Mr. Jenner. Did he say anything about having been in the service?

Mrs. Evans. No; he didn't say anything about that, but I found that out.

62 Mr. Jenner. Did he say anything about what his ambitions were, what his objectives were in life now that he was back home?

Mrs. Evans. No.

Mr. Jenner. Did he have any luggage with him?

Mrs. Evans. Not when he came to my house. He said he had been staying at his aunt's.

Mr. Jenner. Did he talk about any of his old friends?

Mrs. Evans. No.

Mr. Jenner. When he was a teenager, did he ever smoke?

Mrs. Evans. No.

Mr. Jenner. Did you ever know him to smoke?

Mrs. Evans. No.

Mr. Jenner. Or drink?

Mrs. Evans. No.

Mr. Jenner. Would you say he was temperate with respect to smoking?

Mrs. Evans. No; he was very deep; a very deep boy, and he liked to dig into things, and he liked music and books.

Mr. Jenner. Would you say he was a voracious reader?

Mrs. Evans. Yes; he liked to read, and he liked to listen to the radio.

Mr. Jenner. What kind of music drew his attention, classics?

Mrs. Evans. Well, symphony—more of the highbrow stuff, I guess you would say. I don't really remember because this was so many years ago, and I didn't go up to their apartment that much, you know; she would come down to my apartment.

Mr. Jenner. Who would?

Mrs. Evans. His mother, but I know he liked to listen to his records a lot, and he had a lot of books all over the place, you know. His mother would come downstairs in the evening sometime, you know, and we would sit and talk, and sometimes even when she would just come in from work, she would have dinner with me, or something like that, and that's the way it was with Margie and me until we had this sort of falling out, I guess you would call it.

Then after they moved to Texas, like I said, I didn't hear from them for quite awhile, and then Lee came back and came to the house, and we did all of that apartment hunting until we found him one, and then after he had moved in, he called me one day and wanted to know if I could come up and meet Marina.

Mr. Jenner. How long was this after he had moved into the apartment, can you remember?

Mrs. Evans. Oh, I'd say about a week or so, and anyway I thought it would be nice to go up and meet Marina, and I told him we would try to come up, because I would like to meet his wife, and he said, "Just come anytime." He said she was anxious to meet me. Well, of course, I was busy, so I didn't go, so one night while we were sitting and looking at television here his face comes glaring up on the television screen, and he had been arrested for passing out some kind of handbills or something, and it told about this scuffling over this Cuban thing.

Mr. Jenner. Let me interrupt you there for a minute now. That's the first you ever heard, or the first knowledge you had, that Lee Oswald was mixed up in any way with this sort of activity, is that right?

Mrs. Evans. Oh, yes; I had no idea that he was mixed up in anything like this, and I was shocked when I saw his face come on the screen passing out these handbills in connection with this Cuban thing, so I told my husband, "Well, they said he went to Russia to give up his American citizenship; well, maybe he has." I said, "I am certainly not going up there now," so I didn't go, and I don't know whether this was before that or after that, but I called up the lady that had rented the apartment to them—I had asked her for her phone number at the time, and I told her at the time that I would try to send her some tenants, so she did give me the number, so I called one time to see how the Oswalds were getting along. Evidently this must have been after that. I don't remember. So anyway I called and said——

Mr. Jenner. Would that have been Mrs. Garner?

Mrs. Evans. Yes; that's right; Garner. I told her, I said, "This is Myrtle63 Evans, who helped Lee Oswald get that apartment; how are the Oswalds getting along," and she said, "You know, they are a queer kind of people," and she said, "I just told him, 'After all, how do you expect your wife and your child ever to speak the English language when all you ever talk to them is in Russian'?" She said, "I told him, 'This girl doesn't know a word of English, and I can't converse with her at all'," and she said, "I asked him why he didn't talk to her in English and let her learn some English so that she can talk to the people that live here in this country, instead of always in Russian."

Mr. Jenner. What did she say he said when she said that?

Mrs. Evans. Well, she said he didn't say anything. She said she tried to help them in different ways, but they didn't seem to want her to help them, and that the girl couldn't talk a word of English, so she couldn't understand her anyway. She said that Lee had for some reason always talked to her in Russian. She said she told him, "She will never learn to speak English if you keep talking to her in Russian." Now, that must have been prior to the time that I saw this deal on television, and then the next thing I knew about Lee, it was all over television, that he had killed the President, and the rest of it you know. I didn't even know he was back in Texas. I thought he was still living on Magazine Street and working at the Reily Coffee Co.

Mr. Jenner. You didn't know he was back in Texas?

Mrs. Evans. No; because I never did go back when I saw this flash about the Cuban situation on TV and Lee's picture all over the screen. I said "If he is Russian, I don't want to get dragged into it. Maybe they will think I had something to do with it."

Mr. Jenner. So you just stayed away, is that right?

Mrs. Evans. That's right; I didn't want to take a chance in getting involved in anything like that. However, I will say this, I would have loved to meet Marina. Maybe you can call it curiosity, or something, but I did want to meet her. She seems to be such a lovely person. I couldn't tell you where they lived in Texas. I never heard from them any more after that. I would have liked to tell his mother how sorry I felt for the loss of her son, and things like that, but I just don't know how to go about something like that now. I guess it's just one of those things, but I sure do feel sorry for her.

Mr. Jenner. Tell me this: In the time that you knew Lee, did he pretty much get his own way? Would you be able to say as to that?

Mrs. Evans. Well, I would say he did; definitely. She would try to give him everything he wanted—that she could, I mean, and do everything he wanted her to do. I've seen that happen many times in the time that I knew them and especially while they lived at my house. I mean, she couldn't give him a lot of material things. She just didn't have much, you know, but she would try to pacify him. That boy was so inclined to be within himself, that it was hard to figure him out. I guess no one will be able to tell what was really in his mind. They called him a "loner", and I guess that's about the best description you can give him. He was certainly a quiet type boy.

Mr. Jenner. What did you observe with respect to his relations with other children? Just how did he regard them?

Mrs. Evans. Well, to be truthful with you, I never really saw him with anyone except his mother practically.

Mr. Jenner. Do you recall when you had a discussion with Marguerite with respect to her leaving Lee with a couple?

Mrs. Evans. Oh, yes. Marguerite told me that she had this couple at her home looking after Lee. Lee wasn't 3 at that time, you see, and so he wasn't old enough to put in a nursery, but then the neighbors began telling her that they were cruel to her child when she wasn't home, and that the child was doing a lot of crying, and so she came home from work early one day, and she said her baby was screaming, and he had welts on his legs, and that this man had beat her baby, and so she put them out that night. Now, who they were or what their names where, I don't know, but she said that no one would take Lee, and she just didn't know what to do with him while she was working, so that's why she got this couple in the first place.

Mr. Jenner. Why wouldn't anybody take Lee?

64 Mrs. Evans. Well, I mean, she couldn't put him in a home.

Mr. Jenner. Because he was too young?

Mrs. Evans. Because he was too young, that's right. The older boys could be put in a home—in fact, of course, they were, but Lee was not yet 3 years old, and they have to be 3 before a home will take them.

She didn't want to go to the welfare, because once the welfare goes into a case and gets hold of a child, you have nothing but red tape and everything, and sometimes you have a hard job getting your child back, so she didn't want to fool with them, and yet she couldn't put him in the home, so she said there was nothing else for her to do but to try to get somebody to take care of him, which she did, and she was sorry she ever did that.

Mr. Jenner. You say Lee denied to you during your discussion with him that he had ever tried to give up his American citizenship?

Mrs. Evans. Yes; he said that he never intended to do that, but he just wanted to see the country, over in Russia, and see how they live and how the country looks, and so he went into Russia and got a job there and was working, and then he met this girl, and they got married, and he told me he would have been back sooner if he had figured out some way to get her out of the country. Actually he didn't seem to want to talk too much about it, and I didn't try to pump him too much, but I was just curious to see if he had had any change of mind, and what had really happened. I do feel that he was sympathetic with the Communist system of government, I mean, of the Russian system, but now I was only with him a few hours, and we just generally talked about his mother and his brothers, and his job, and looking for an apartment, and he didn't even tell me at the time that his wife was expecting another baby, and I was surprised when I heard that.

Mr. Jenner. What did he say about his brothers and his mother?

Mrs. Evans. Well, he said the boys where in Texas, and that his mother was fine, and that she was in Texas, and I think Robert, or one of them, had a couple of children. I think that was Robert that had a couple of children, and we just talked generally about things like that, you know.

Mr. Jenner. Did you get the impression that he was patriotic toward the United States, or what kind of an impression did you get in talking to Lee?

Mrs. Evans. Well, like I said, he seemed to be sympathetic toward Russia, but he told me that he was glad to be back in the United States, and that the only reason he was in Russia working at all was because he had married this Russian girl and wanted to get her out of the country, or he would have been back sooner.

Mr. Jenner. Did he say anything about his having served in the Marines, anything about how he felt about that service, or did you know he was in the Marines?

Mrs. Evans. Well, I sort of half way knew about it, maybe from his aunt; I don't know, but I don't even remember if Lee mentioned that fact in our discussion that day. I don't really remember that. I do know that he always wanted to go in the Marines.

Mr. Jenner. He always wanted to go into the Marines?

Mrs. Evans. Yes; he did.

Mr. Jenner. Tell me about that. How do you know that?

Mrs. Evans. Well, because when he was going to Beauregard, he wanted to be a marine.

Mr. Jenner. He expressed that to you?

Mrs. Evans. Yes; he always wanted to be a marine. He often said that.

Mr. Jenner. Do you recall a period of time when he wasn't in high school, but he still lived there?

Mrs. Evans. You mean in my apartment?

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mrs. Evans. No; because they moved from my house, and I lost contact with them.

Mr. Jenner. But while they were living in your apartment, did he actually express a desire to go into the Marines?

Mrs. Evans. Yes; he was always ambitious to be a marine, as far as I know.

65 Mr. Jenner. Did he ever express a desire to be like his brother, since it wound up that they were both in the Marines?

Mrs. Evans. Well, yes; I think he wanted to be like his brothers; they were both in the service, you know. I think John was a marine, but I can't remember what branch of the service Robert was in.

Mr. Jenner. Well, John was in the Coast Guard, I think.

Mrs. Evans. Well, the Coast Guard, and so Robert must have been in the marines.

Mr. Jenner. That's right.

Mrs. Evans. As long as I have known Lee though, he has wanted to be in the Marines. That's one of the things he said he always wanted to do.

Mr. Jenner. Did you learn anything as to the mother's attitude in that respect, about her boys going into the service, and particularly Lee?

Mrs. Evans. No; but Margie was satisfied that her children were going into the service, because she didn't have the money to send them to college, so they could graduate and all that, so it was natural that they would go in the service after they got out of high school.

Mr. Jenner. Did you ever meet Mrs. Paine?

Mrs. Evans. No; you mean the lady who brought Marina to New Orleans?

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mrs. Evans. No; because I never even met his wife. I never went there at all. He called me, like I said, and told me that his wife had come to New Orleans, and he said he would like for me to come up and visit them and meet her, and I said, "Lee, I am going to try to come," and I said, "You-all come to see us," and he said, "Come just any time." He said Marina was anxious to meet me, and to come up and visit them at any time.

Mr. Jenner. I have no further questions, but I would like to ask you this general question, Mrs. Evans:

Does anything occur to you that might be helpful to the Commission that I haven't asked you about, either because I neglected to do so or because I haven't learned about it? If you can think of anything, I will appreciate it if you will tell me at this time, any incident or occurrence that took place during the time that you knew the Oswalds.

Mrs. Evans. No; I can't think of anything else.

Mr. Jenner. Would you say his character, and I'm talking about Lee now, would you say it was strong or weak, or what? For example, did he give way quickly to anger, or on the contrary was he a man of self-control?

Mrs. Evans. Well, he could get angry with his mother. That was when he was in his teens, of course, the way he would holler at her when he wanted to eat, or something like that, and when he would holler, she would jump up and practically run to do whatever he wanted her to do. Of course, I don't know anything about his manhood, because I was only in his company about 3 or 4 hours then.

Mr. Jenner. Would you say he was a pleasant and inviting individual with whom you yourself would seek to be in his presence, or be with him, or just what sort of emotions did he display generally? That's what I'm getting at.

Mrs. Evans. Well, he didn't laugh too much, and he wasn't a light type of person. He was what I would call deep. He wasn't real friendly. To like him, you would have to know him. I mean, even as a child, you didn't warm to him, because he was very quiet and deep, and of course I didn't have too much contact with him. Most of my contact with with his mother.

Mr. Jenner. All right, Mrs. Evans, I appreciate very much your coming in and giving me this information, and I know it will be helpful to the Commission in its evaluation of all the evidence with regard to this matter.

Now, in the taking of this deposition, it is your privilege to read your deposition over and to sign it. It is also your privilege to waive that. In other words, you don't have to read and sign it unless you want to. You can waive that privilege, and the reporter will go ahead and transcribe your testimony, and it will be sent on to Washington, but if you prefer to read and sign it, the reporter will transcribe it, and you will be notified by the United States Attorney here when to come in and read and sign it.

66 As I have told you before, your testimony will not be disclosed other than by the Commission when and if the Commission deems it necessary.

What is your pleasure on that now, Mrs. Evans? Do you want to read and sign your deposition, or do you want to waive that?

Mrs. Evans. Oh, I will waive it. I have just told what I know about it, and that's all I can tell you.

Mr. Jenner. You wish to waive the reading and signing and trust to the reporter's ability and competence in transcribing your deposition, is that right?

Mrs. Evans. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. All right; thank you again, Mrs. Evans, for appearing here voluntarily, and giving us this information.

TESTIMONY OF JULIAN EVANS

The testimony of Julian Evans was taken on April 7, 1964, at the Old Civil Courts Building, Royal and Conti Streets, New Orleans, La., by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Julian Evans, 1910 Prytania Street, New Orleans, La., after first being duly sworn, testified as follows:

Mr. Jenner. You are Julian Evans, husband of Myrtle Evans, is that right?

Mr. Evans. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Mrs. Evans just left this room after giving her deposition, is that right?

Mr. Evans. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And you live at 1910 Prytania Street, New Orleans, is that right?

Mr. Evans. That's right.

Mr. Jenner. Mr. Evans, you are a native-born American, is that correct, sir?

Mr. Evans. Correct.

Mr. Jenner. Where were you born?

Mr. Evans. New York.

Mr. Jenner. New York City?

Mr. Evans. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. How long have you lived in this area?

Mr. Evans. New Orleans?

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mr. Evans. Well, about 54 years.

Mr. Jenner. What is your business or occupation, Mr. Evans?

Mr. Evans. D. H. Holmes; salesman—major appliances.

Mr. Jenner. How long have you lived on Prytania, at that address?

Mr. Evans. Let's see—it's going on 15 years now.

Mr. Jenner. And you are Mrs. Evans' second husband, is that right, sir?

Mr. Evans. That's right.

Mr. Jenner. Were you married before?

Mr. Evans. No.

Mr. Jenner. During your lifetime you came to know the Oswald family, is that right?

Mr. Evans. Yes; the boy and his mother.

Mr. Jenner. Marguerite and Lee?

Mr. Evans. Yes; and there was another brother—two other brothers.

Mr. Jenner. John Pic and Robert Lee Oswald, is that right?

Mr. Evans. That's right. I met them for the first time when we were across the lake, around Covington, La.—the three boys and Marguerite, and Pic—no; I mean Ekdahl; that was before she married him.

Mr. Jenner. Mr. Ekdahl was over there with them?

Mr. Evans. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Do you know where Mr. Ekdahl was from?

Mr. Evans. From Boston. That was the first time I ever saw any of the boys.

67 Mr. Jenner. They were then living over in Covington, and that was during the summer, is that right?

Mr. Evans. That's right.

Mr. Jenner. Do you know what that address was over there?

Mr. Evans. No; I don't remember that address. I think they rented a place over there.

Mr. Jenner. This was in 1946, is that right?

Mr. Evans. That's about right.

Mr. Jenner. Now, there are two addresses given for that place, 611 West 24th Street, Covington, La., and 311 Vermont Street, is that right?

Mr. Evans. Well, I don't know the address. We didn't go to the house.

Mr. Jenner. You went to a picnic, is that right?

Mr. Evans. Yes; we went to a picnic over there.

Mr. Jenner. And Mr. Ekdahl was there with Marguerite and the children, is that right?

Mr. Evans. Yes, he was there, and I talked to him. He was a lot older than she was, you know.

Mr. Jenner. Mr. Ekdahl was a lot older than Marguerite?

Mr. Evans. Yes; he was.

Mr. Jenner. What was your impression of Mr. Ekdahl at that time?

Mr. Evans. Very well; a fine gentleman, well educated. He seemed to know his business. He talked about rocks and ore and things like that, and I enjoyed talking to him. That's the only time I have ever seen him.

Mr. Jenner. I forgot, Mr. Evans, but you did receive a letter from Mr. Rankin, general counsel for the Commission, did you not?

Mr. Evans. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And enclosed with that letter was Senate Joint Resolution 137, authorizing the creation of the Commission to investigate the assassination of the late President John Fitzgerald Kennedy, is that right?

Mr. Evans. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And Executive Order No. 11130 of Lyndon B. Johnson, appointing that Commission and fixing its powers and duties?

Mr. Evans. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And a copy of the rules and regulations under which we take testimony before the Commission and also by way of deposition, such as in your case; is that right?

Mr. Evans. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. You became aware, I take it, from these documents that you received that the Commission was empowered and directed to investigate the circumstances surrounding the assassination of President John Fitzgerald Kennedy; is that right?

Mr. Evans. That's right.

Mr. Jenner. I am Albert E. Jenner, Jr., and I represent the legal staff of the Commission, along with Mr. Liebeler, and our purpose for being here is to ask you questions concerning any contact you might have had with the Oswald family, and particularly Lee Oswald, during his lifetime, and we understand that both you and Mrs. Evans did have some contact with the Oswalds, is that right?

Mr. Evans. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Now, you appeared voluntarily here today, is that right?

Mr. Evans. Right.

Mr. Jenner. Did you and Mrs. Evans stay over at Covington more than a day on this occasion that you began to tell me about?

Mr. Evans. No.

Mr. Jenner. You just visited over there on one occasion?

Mr. Evans. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Did you visit at Covington on any other occasions?

Mr. Evans. No.

Mr. Jenner. And this was in 1946, so Lee would have been 6 or 7 years old, is that right?

Mr. Evans. I guess; he was pretty small.

Mr. Jenner. And the other two boys were also with her, you say?

68 Mr. Evans. Yes; they were all with her over there.

Mr. Jenner. Were they in school at the time, do you know?

Mr. Evans. I think they were in school. They were on vacation, I believe, because this was during the summer; I am pretty sure they were on vacation over there.

Mr. Jenner. The two boys, that is, John and Robert, they were in a school that was different from the school that Lee was attending, if he was attending school, is that right?

Mr. Evans. Well, I don't know if he was attending school or not, but I don't think they went to the same school. These other boys went to an out-of-town school, I think.

Mr. Jenner. That's what I was getting at. I was trying to have you say it voluntarily, rather than me say it. Do you understand that they were attending a military school over in Mississippi?

Mr. Evans. Those two boys; yes.

Mr. Jenner. The two older boys?

Mr. Evans. Yes; I'm pretty sure that that's right.

Mr. Jenner. And Lee was with his mother; he stayed with her?

Mr. Evans. Yes; with his mother and Mr. Ekdahl—you mean in Covington now?

Mr. Jenner. No; in Texas; this was just a summer vacation over in Covington, isn't that right?

Mr. Evans. Yes; that's right.

Mr. Jenner. What impression did you get as to the life and habits and personality of Mr. Ekdahl and Marguerite and Lee, that is, when they were not on vacation—when they were moving from place to place in the pursuit of Mr. Ekdahl's line of business, from city to city?

Mr. Evans. Well, I think Marguerite and Ekdahl got along pretty well, except for the kid. I mean, he wanted his own way about everything.

Mr. Jenner. You noticed that?

Mr. Evans. Oh, yes.

Mr. Jenner. That was quite apparent to you even though this was vacation time when you saw them over in Covington?

Mr. Evans. I don't understand that.

Mr. Jenner. I said, was this apparent to you even when they were on this picnic over in Covington that you told us about?

Mr. Evans. Yes; you could notice that. It seemed like all his life, Lee wanted his way, and that's what he wanted.

Mr. Jenner. Well, you are expressing that opinion from what you have heard and read, in addition to what you saw yourself, are you not?

Mr. Evans. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. But you did notice that yourself?

Mr. Evans. Oh, yes, I did; definitely I noticed it.

Mr. Jenner. Was that the first time that you had met either Marguerite or Ekdahl?

Mr. Evans. Yes; that's the first time. I may have met Marguerite before but not Ekdahl, and not the boys either, but Marguerite was working on Canal Street in some hosiery shop, and I might have seen her there. I know Myrtle knew her for quite a few years, so I probably had met her before. I just don't remember now.

Mr. Jenner. What kind of a person was she?

Mr. Evans. She was a very fine person, a nice looking woman—well educated, soft spoken, a very, very nice woman; wonderful.

Mr. Jenner. Did you get the impression that Mr. Ekdahl and she, apart from this vacation, traveled a lot?

Mr. Evans. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Because of his work?

Mr. Evans. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Living in hotels?

Mr. Evans. That's right; they lived in hotels and also they took Lee with them.

Mr. Jenner. They took Lee with them?

69 Mr. Evans. Yes; everywhere.

Mr. Jenner. In traveling on his job?

Mr. Evans. That's right. They were living in Texas for awhile, I believe, and then he did some traveling in Texas, New York, and other places, but they would always take the boy with them when they went.

Mr. Jenner. You and Mrs. Evans maintained somewhat of a friendship with Marguerite, did you not?

Mr. Evans. That's right. Of course, my wife knew her more years than I did. She knew her a long time before she was even married.

Mr. Jenner. That's right; our information shows that.

Mr. Evans. She knew her when she lived down on Alvar Street.

Mr. Jenner. That was before you had any contact with the Oswald family, is that right?

Mr. Evans. That's right.

Mr. Jenner. Has your wife given you any of the details regarding the background of the Oswald family?

Mr. Evans. Yes; over the years we have discussed it.

Mr. Jenner. Well, I wouldn't be interested right now in what your wife told you, because we have taken her deposition, but I just want to know what you know of the family and your impressions of them, and so forth.

Mr. Evans. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Were you married to Mrs. Evans when the Oswalds lived at 1454 St. Mary?

Mr. Evans. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. You were?

Mr. Evans. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Tell me about that. How did that come about? How did you first come to know them.

Mr. Evans. Well, she came to town, and she wanted an apartment.

Mr. Jenner. From where did she come?

Mr. Evans. Well, she was living here with her sister, and they couldn't get along, or something.

Mr. Jenner. Lillian Murret, is that who you are talking about?

Mr. Evans. Yes; her sister; she lives downtown.

Mr. Jenner. Lillian Murret?

Mr. Evans. That's right.

Mr. Jenner. And she is Marguerite's sister?

Mr. Evans. Yes; I think her and the boys were living there, and they couldn't get along, or something, so they looked for an apartment, and she asked my wife if she knew about a place anywhere that she might rent, or if she had a place, and so then they moved into the apartment right next to us, and there was some disagreement about the apartment, or something, and my wife told her she could give her the apartment, but not for the same amount of money, or something like that—I don't know exactly how all that took place, but my wife can tell you that, but anyway she got mad and left, and they moved down in the French Quarter.

Mr. Jenner. Do you know where?

Mr. Evans. Well, it's some little short street down in the French Quarter, you know, right off of Canal. It's not such a good neighborhood, a lot of poolrooms and places like that.

Mr. Jenner. Would that be Exchange Alley?

Mr. Evans. Exchange Alley, yes; that's it. We took them on vacation one time on a week end across the lake with us.

Mr. Jenner. You did?

Mr. Evans. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Tell me about that.

Mr. Evans. We took them over to my sister-in-law's place, across the lake.

Mr. Jenner. When you say across the lake, which lake is that?

Mr. Evans. Lake Pontchartrain.

Mr. Jenner. And where's your sister-in-law's place across the lake?

Mr. Evans. At Sun, La. They are in the sand and gravel business over there, and they have a private pond to fish in, you know, and they stock it themselves70 and they have some nice fish in there, and so Lee and the boys were down there fishing, but Lee didn't talk to the other kids or anything. He just seemed to want to be alone, and he just fished by himself, and the odd part of his behavior that we all thought was very strange was the way he would just let the fish die on the bank after he would catch them. Now, the other small boys would catch them and, and if there was enough for eating and everything, they would throw the others back, but not Lee. He would pull them in and just throw them down on the river—I mean on the bank by the pond and just let them lay there, and when he got through he just walked off and left them there. Something like that is hard to understand. He didn't catch them for eating, and he didn't want to throw them back in. He just left them on the bank and walked off after he got tired of fishing. We couldn't understand that at all. It showed how totally inconsiderate he was of everything. It was a good example of how he acted, and his general attitude.

Mr. Jenner. How old was he at that time?

Mr. Evans. He was just a young fellow.

Mr. Jenner. About 13, 14 or 15 years old, would you say?

Mr. Evans. Yes; somewhere around there. I believe he was going to Warren Easton at the time, or he went to Easton shortly after that.

Mr. Jenner. He first went to Beauregard Junior High School, is that right?

Mr. Evans. Yes; and then he went to Warren Easton when he was about 14, I think. He wouldn't talk much. If you talked to him, maybe he would answer you and maybe he wouldn't, but you had to speak to him first. That's the last time I saw him until he came back from Texas looking for a place to stay.

Mr. Jenner. When Lee was living in the apartment with his mother, what did you notice, or observe, with relationship to his mother? I mean, did he seem to respect her authority, or was he impervious and arrogant?

Mr. Evans. He was arrogant.

Mr. Jenner. Can you remember some incident that would illustrate that for us?

Mr. Evans. Well, his mother would be in our apartment talking to my wife, for example, and if he came home from school or somewhere, he would holler real loud, "Maw, how about something to eat?"

Mr. Jenner. He would be demanding, you mean?

Mr. Evans. Yes; real demanding, and loud. He wanted her to come right now, and he had absolutely no patience with her at all, it seemed.

Mr. Jenner. It was just not raising his voice to let his mother know he was home, or anything like that?

Mr. Evans. No; it was real demanding. He would know where she was when she was talking to my wife, and when he hollered at her, she would have to go right now.

Mr. Jenner. Did he ever get home early from school, or was it about the regular time?

Mr. Evans. Oh, about the regular time, I think. I don't think he ever stayed away from school. I think he went to school all right, but, I mean, he was arrogant, and nobody liked him. That was the thing.

Mr. Jenner. Did he ever associate with any of the children in the neighborhood?

Mr. Evans. No; he didn't. He didn't associate with anybody.

Mr. Jenner. Do you remember anything about his habits? Did he stay in the apartment, or go out, or what?

Mr. Evans. He stayed mostly in the apartment. Now, when he lived upstairs in the apartment, he would go out on the front porch and read. He always had a few books around, paper covered books.

Mr. Jenner. Paperbacks?

Mr. Evans. Yes; paperbacks. He had a lot of them.

Mr. Jenner. Did he go to the public library and get books?

Mr. Evans. Well, I don't know. I can't answer that, but he did a lot of reading, but, you know, it was mostly this cheap stuff, I think.

Mr. Jenner. Would you say he was a voracious reader?

71 Mr. Evans. Yes, he read; he read all the time. I mean, from what I noticed by him being around the apartment.

Mr. Jenner. Did you notice any other traits about him that you wondered about, or that you thought unusual or strange?

Mr. Evans. He seemed to be in deep thought a lot of times—always thinking. He was hard to get to.

Mr. Jenner. He was hard to get to?

Mr. Evans. Yes; that's right.

Mr. Jenner. Did you ever feel that you ever got to know Lee Oswald, Mr. Evans.

Mr. Evans. No; I can't say that I ever did. I don't think anybody did. I don't think anybody even came close to it, because the way he was nobody could figure him out. It was hard to get to him or to understand him. He didn't want you to get too close to him, for one thing. He never went out of his way to make friends, I mean, from what I knew of him.

Mr. Jenner. He sort of shied away from friends, or people who might have become friends, or who might have tried to be friendly with him?

Mr. Evans. Yes; that's it. You would try to be nice to him, but he wouldn't appreciate it, and he didn't mind showing you that he didn't appreciate it. My sister-in-law's children tried to be friendly with him when we had him across the lake to their house. They asked him to go swimming with them, and everything, but he just wanted to be by himself. Finally, the kids got so that they just didn't pay any attention to him. Kids are like that, you know. If he wanted to be that way, that was all right with them. They just went ahead and enjoyed themselves, and to heck with him. They didn't let him bother them at all with the way he acted.

Mr. Jenner. As I gather it, they tried to be friendly with him, but when he wouldn't reciprocate, then they said, in effect, "OK, we won't be friendly; see if we care"; is that right?

Mr. Evans. That's right.

Mr. Jenner. Now, when they lived at your apartment, the address was given there as 1454 and then later it was changed to 1452; what was that all about? Could you explain that?

Mr. Evans. Well, there was nothing to that. They just moved from upstairs to downstairs. We were remodeling the apartment upstairs, and so she moved downstairs, really next door, and when she found out that she wasn't going to be permitted by my wife to move back upstairs, that's when she got mad and left, but, really, Lee had become very noisy and loud, and we just decided that we would rather not have him back in that apartment for that reason—because he was actually disturbing everybody around there with his loudness. You could really tell when he was home.

Mr. Jenner. You could?

Mr. Evans. Oh, yes; in fact, Lee couldn't talk to his mother in a soft voice or a low voice; it was always a very loud, insolent voice, and it seemed like he got to raising his voice all the time, and he didn't seem to care who heard him or what he said. You knew he was home, all right.

Mr. Jenner. Did some friction arise between Mrs. Evans, the landlady, and Mrs. Oswald about that time?

Mr. Evans. Yes; it was about the apartment, and my wife told her that she just couldn't let her move back upstairs, and she didn't like that at all, and then she moved away.

Mr. Jenner. Would you say that Lee was a very impervious fellow?

Mr. Evans. Yes; I would say that. He had what I would call a foghorn voice, and he didn't seem to make any effort at all to control it. He would just blare out, and it did disturb others around the house. He had a good speaking voice, though; I will say that; very good.

Mr. Jenner. Now, after this incident in which Marguerite took over other quarters and moved out with her son, when next did you hear about or have any contact with either Marguerite or Lee Oswald?

Mr. Evans. When he came back there to look for an apartment.

Mr. Jenner. That would have been last spring?

Mr. Evans. Yes.

72 Mr. Jenner. Is that right?

Mr. Evans. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. May?

Mr. Evans. Around May.

Mr. Jenner. May of 1963?

Mr. Evans. Yes, sir; we were eating breakfast at the time, I think, and I was about to leave for work, because I was due at work pretty soon, but my wife talked to him and showed him around later, she told me, and she helped him get an apartment.

Mr. Jenner. Did you notice anything unusual about Lee when you first met him that day?

Mr. Evans. Well, when I shook hands with him, his hand was so soft; it was just like there was nothing there, no bones or anything.

Mr. Jenner. A fishy handshake, was it?

Mr. Evans. That's right; just soft, like no bones in his hand; that's the way he shook hands.

Mr. Jenner. You mean he didn't have a firm handclasp; is that right?

Mr. Evans. That's right. His hand was not solid, like the average person that you shake hands with. It was soft. I had understood that he had been fooling around with machinery, but he didn't have the hand of a mechanic.

Mr. Jenner. Had you heard anything about him before he came to your house that day?

Mr. Evans. You mean in connection with this Cuban thing?

Mr. Jenner. Yes; anything about that?

Mr. Evans. No; that came after that.

Mr. Jenner. All right; we'll get to that in a minute. When he got to your apartment, he rang the bell, and your wife let him in; is that right?

Mr. Evans. Yes; she answered the door?

Mr. Jenner. She answered the door?

Mr. Evans. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Did he make an inquiry about an apartment, as to whether he could find one, or what?

Mr. Evans. Yes; he did, and she said to come on in, and he came in, and they sat down and we talked a few minutes before I had to leave.

Mr. Jenner. Did you and your wife recognize him then?

Mr. Evans. Oh, yes.

Mr. Jenner. Immediately?

Mr. Evans. He hadn't changed. He was talking a little more. I noticed that right away, and about his physical appearance, though, it was about the same, except that he was taller, but you could tell it was the same Lee Oswald.

Mr. Jenner. You recognized him right away; is that right?

Mr. Evans. Yes; I recognized him. We talked for a little bit, but I had to leave after we had had a couple of shots of coffee, because I had to get to work. I was on my way, in fact, when he came to the door; so I didn't get to see him for very long that morning. When I left, my wife was talking to him about the possibilities of getting him an apartment, and at that point I had to leave. I left then and went to the office. Later that day my wife told me that she had found him an apartment, and she also told me that he told her that he had found a job with the Reily Coffee Co.

Mr. Jenner. He had found a job with the Reily Coffee Co.?

Mr. Evans. That's what my wife told me he said, and she said he seemed to he very happy about it, because he was going to bring his wife over from Texas, and they were going to live here in an apartment, and my wife said he wanted to call her right away, as soon as they found the apartment, and that a friend was going to drive her over.

Mr. Jenner. Did your wife question him in your presence about his alleged attempt to defect to Russia, and whether or not he had renounced his American citizenship?

Mr. Evans. Well, yes; she did ask him about that, but he denied it. He said he was only a tourist in Russia, or something like that. He said he just wanted to see the country and how they lived, and that he did not intend to ever give up his American citizenship. The next thing we knew, we were watching television,73 and his picture came on there, as big as life, and it showed him passing out leaflets or something. I think it was on Canal Street—no; I think that was on Bolivar. Anyway, the signs read, "Free Cuba," or something like that.

Mr. Jenner. Could that have been "Fair Play for Cuba"?

Mr. Evans. That's right.

Mr. Jenner. What was your reaction when you saw this on the screen?

Mr. Evans. Well, we didn't know what to think; whether he was in this by himself, or whether he had accomplices, or what, and my wife had planned to go up and visit his wife up at their apartment up on Magazine, but after that came on the screen, and all, she decided not to go. She said she didn't know what he was getting himself involved in, but that she had better not go up there, and she didn't.

Mr. Jenner. Then neither you nor your wife visited them at their apartment on Magazine Street; is that right?

Mr. Evans. That's right.

Mr. Jenner. You did not?

Mr. Evans. No.

Mr. Jenner. And they never did visit you after that, either; is that right?

Mr. Evans. That's right. They didn't visit us, and we didn't visit them.

Mr. Jenner. Was there any discussion of President Kennedy at this breakfast that you had with your wife and Lee that morning he first showed up—at least, before you left for work?

Mr. Evans. No.

Mr. Jenner. Was anything like that mentioned at all as long as you were there, at least?

Mr. Evans. No. Like I said, I just finished a cup of coffee and left. I had to get to the office.

Mr. Jenner. Did you ever see Lee Oswald in any fits of temper, so to speak?

Mr. Evans. No; I didn't. I never did actually see anything like that, but I could hear him all right, the way he would shout at his mother and so forth. I mean, but I never did actually see him at times like that. He would be up in the apartment. From what I could hear, though, I could tell that he was very demanding of her.

Mr. Jenner. Very demanding of his mother?

Mr. Evans. Yes; he was.

Mr. Jenner. What other impressions did you have of this boy?

Mr. Evans. Well, I thought he was a psycho. I really did. He was so young to be acting the way he did. Of course, there is no doubt that his mother really spoiled him. She would do just about anything he wanted, if it was possible to be done, like giving him money or anything like that, and I understand that he was the cause of his mother's divorce from Ekdahl. Ekdahl said that Lee was more demanding of his mother than he was, and he was her husband.

Mr. Jenner. You had the impression that Lee came between her and Mr. Ekdahl?

Mr. Evans. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Give me your impression of Marguerite Oswald.

Mr. Evans. Marguerite?

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mr. Evans. I think she's a fine woman, myself, a fine woman; intelligent, very soft spoken—a beautiful woman, with black hair streaked with a little gray, but when you saw her on television since this thing happened, she really looked awful; nothing at all like she used to look. She has really aged. She looked like a charwoman, compared to what she used to look like. She used to be a fashion plate. She dressed beautifully, but when we saw her on television just recently, after all this happened, she looked awful. There's no other way to describe it, the change that has come over her. You wouldn't have recognized her if they hadn't told you who she was; she looked that different. Where her hair used to be black, now it's entirely gray, and she really looks old.

Mr. Jenner. Well, she's 57, I believe.

Mr. Evans. That's right; she's the same age as my wife, but she looks about 70 now. That's about all I can remember about her, and then I saw this thing74 on television when the President was assassinated, and when it showed her picture, we just couldn't believe it was Marguerite.

Mr. Jenner. Were you home when her picture came on television, along with this news of the President's assassination and Oswald's arrest?

Mr. Evans. No; I was at the store at the time. It was on television there.

Mr. Jenner. What did you do when you saw it?

Mr. Evans. I immediately called my wife, and I said, "Do you have the television on?" and she said, "No," and I said, "Well, put it on." I said, "They are holding Lee Oswald as the assassin," and she said, "No; that can't be!" and I said, "Turn on the television and see for yourself."

Mr. Jenner. Did you ever observe anything about Lee Oswald that would lead you to believe that he had any propensity toward acts of violence on the person of anybody else?

Mr. Evans. No; he was a good talker.

Mr. Jenner. He was a good talker?

Mr. Evans. Yes; he was. He had a good vocabulary; pretty good for his age, anyway; so I guess all that reading he did must have accounted for that. Also, he had a pretty good memory, for one thing, and his expressions were good, but he was very noisy and would talk in a loud voice all the time, especially when he wanted something from his mother or wanted her to do something for him. I used to think it was pretty awful the way he used to yell at her, but she didn't seem to mind. She would jump up the minute he yelled, and she did everything for him that she could. But he did have a booming voice. You don't see a voice in a kid like that, at 13 years old, very often. His voice was just about changing then, at that early age.

Mr. Jenner. Did he seem aggressive in that respect, at least with other children?

Mr. Evans. Yes; I would say so.

Mr. Jenner. What was your impression of this man in general when he came back to New Orleans in 1963 and you had occasion to see him?

Mr. Evans. In what way?

Mr. Jenner. Well, say, with respect to money; what was his financial status?

Mr. Evans. You mean this boy?

Mr. Jenner. Yes, Oswald; what was his status with relation to income or the amount of money he possessed, or anything like that? What did you learn about that?

Mr. Evans. Well I don't think he had any money.

Mr. Jenner. That was your impression; that he had no money, or any outside source of money?

Mr. Evans. Yes. He couldn't even afford a nice apartment for his wife and child. He had to get the cheapest apartment he could find, because we had friends that had other places that he could have gotten, but he couldn't afford anything better. He did not have money; that's what seemed to be so odd, to our way of thinking, when we heard those rumors and reports that he was getting money from other sources to do all of this stuff that he seemed to be getting into. We just figured if he was getting any other money, then he would be living in a better place and taking better care of his family, but he couldn't afford to pay for anything.

Mr. Jenner. Then you saw no evidence of him having any money?

Mr. Evans. No.

Mr. Jenner. Do you think it possible that he might have received any substantial quantities from any other source?

Mr. Evans. No; I don't. Even his clothing was bad, all worn, and he didn't have a coat on that I ever saw.

Mr. Jenner. No coat?

Mr. Evans. Just a sport shirt is all, when I saw him. I don't know of any other income he could have had. Of course, his mother might have been helping him. If it was possible, I know she would have helped him. I don't think his brothers helped him any.

Mr. Jenner. Does anything else occur to you that might be helpful to the Commission in its investigation; anything that I might not have asked you about,75 or that I just didn't know about, and that you think might be of assistance to us in this investigation?

Mr. Evans. No; not a thing.

Mr. Jenner. Now, this deposition will be transcribed by the reporter, and you have the privilege under the law of reading and signing your deposition. However, you don't have to do that. You can waive that right and let the reporter transcribe the deposition, and it will be forwarded direct to Washington, to the Commission. Now, what is your preference in that regard?

Mr. Evans. I will waive that.

Mr. Jenner. You will waive that privilege?

Mr. Evans. Yes; I can't think of anything else besides what I have already told you. I didn't actually know Lee too well, because he just wasn't the type of man you could get close to. He just sort of lived in his own world, I guess you would say, and he didn't want friends, or at least that was my impression, and I did have enough contact with him that I could arrive at my own opinion.

Mr. Jenner. All right, Mr. Evans. Thank you very much for coming in voluntarily and answering these questions.

TESTIMONY OF PHILIP EUGENE VINSON

The testimony of Philip Eugene Vinson was taken at 2 p.m., on April 1, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. Liebeler. Would you rise and I will administer the oath. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. Vinson. I do.

Mr. Liebeler. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am a member of the legal staff of the President's Commission To Investigate the Assassination of President Kennedy. I have been authorized to take the testimony of witnesses by the Commission pursuant to authority granted to it by Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137.

The Commission's rules require that a witness be given 3 days' notice prior to the time that he can be required to testify. I don't think you have been given 3 days' notice, but you are entitled to waive that notice if you want to.

I assume that as long as you are here, you are perfectly willing to waive it and go ahead.

Mr. Vinson. That's right.

Mr. Liebeler. I want to give you now a copy of the Executive order that I just mentioned, plus the Resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of procedure, which rules have been adopted to govern the taking of testimony from witnesses. You may keep those documents and refer to them as you wish.

The Commission understands that you were a classmate of Lee Harvey Oswald in the second grade?

Mr. Vinson. Yes.

Mr. Liebeler. While that may not seem to have too much relationship to the events of last November, one of the purposes of the Commission is to try to determine, assuming Oswald's guilt, his motive. In that area it might be that the kind of person he was when he was in the second grade or younger than that, throughout his youth, may have some relevance.

Mr. Liebeler. Before we get into the details of that, however, I would like you to state your full name.

Mr. Vinson. Philip Eugene Vinson.

Mr. Liebeler. Where do you live, Mr. Vinson?

Mr. Vinson. 4325 Baell Street, Fort Worth, Tex.

76 Mr. Liebeler. You are presently employed as a reporter for a Fort Worth newspaper, is that correct?

Mr. Vinson. That's right.

Mr. Liebeler. Which newspaper?

Mr. Vinson. The Fort Worth Star Telegram.

Mr. Liebeler. How long have you been employed by them?

Mr. Vinson. Since July 15, 1963.

Mr. Liebeler. What kind of work have you been doing for them?

Mr. Vinson. Reporter.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you have any particular specialty, or just a general reporter; what kind of work are you actually doing?

Mr. Vinson. We have a bureau in Arlington, Tex., which specializes in covering suburban news in the community between Dallas and Fort Worth, and we have two reporters assigned to this bureau, and I am one of the two reporters in this bureau at this time.

Mr. Liebeler. So you are actually presently located or based in Arlington; is that correct?

Mr. Vinson. That's right. We have an office in Arlington.

Mr. Liebeler. Have you been doing this same work ever since you went to work for the newspaper?

Mr. Vinson. No.

Mr. Liebeler. What other jobs have you had?

Mr. Vinson. When I started, I was given the routine work that most beginner reporters assume. You start out writing obituaries and just general assignments on the city side or working through the city editor, and I did that for about 6 weeks.

During this time I was doing this 4 days a week, while on Saturday they were training me to take over the police reporters job. And I worked 4 days out of the main office and 1 day from the police station for about 6 weeks.

And then around the first of September I became a full-time police reporter for the Evening Star Telegram, and I worked as a police reporter until about October the 1—excuse me, until about, I would say, around October 20, the latter part of October. I don't know the dates exactly, but I stayed as a police reporter for a little less than 2 months. Then the management decided that they were going to establish this bureau in Arlington, and I was chosen along with another reporter to come out to work in Arlington.

Mr. Liebeler. How old are you, Mr. Vinson?

Mr. Vinson. Twenty-three.

Mr. Liebeler. When were you born?

Mr. Vinson. July 6, 1940.

Mr. Liebeler. Where?

Mr. Vinson. Childress, Tex.

Mr. Liebeler. Where is that?

Mr. Vinson. It is just at the beginning of the Panhandle. It is about 120 miles west of Wichita Falls and about 150 miles southeast of Amarillo, just at the base of the Panhandle.

Mr. Liebeler. How long did you live there?

Mr. Vinson. I lived there until the summer of 1947, with one exception. We moved to Fort Worth in 1945, 1946, for a short time, about 3 months, and my father was working in Fort Worth, but my mother and I, there was this big housing shortage after the war and we couldn't find a place to live, so we moved back to Childress until my father was able to find us a place to live. That was in the summer of 1946, as I recall now, because I started to school in the first grade in Childress that fall.

Mr. Liebeler. Then you and your mother finally moved to Fort Worth?

Mr. Vinson. Yes; in the summer of 1947, we moved to Fort Worth, and that fall I started to school in Fort Worth, and that would have been the second grade.

Mr. Liebeler. You went to the first grade in Childress?

Mr. Vinson. Yes.

Mr. Liebeler. And you went to the second grade in what school?

Mr. Vinson. Lily B. Clayton Elementary School.

77 Mr. Liebeler. Where did you live in Fort Worth at that time?

Mr. Vinson. 661 Seventh Avenue.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you have any brothers or sisters?

Mr. Vinson. I have one brother.

Mr. Liebeler. Older or younger?

Mr. Vinson. Younger.

Mr. Liebeler. How old is he?

Mr. Vinson. Three.

Mr. Liebeler. While you were in attendance at the Lily B. Clayton School, did you know another student by the name of Lee Oswald?

Mr. Vinson. I did.

Mr. Liebeler. Can you remember when you first met him?

Mr. Vinson. No.

Mr. Liebeler. Why don't you tell us everything that you can in your own words about what you remember about Lee Oswald as you knew him in the second grade?

Mr. Vinson. Well, I have no idea when I first saw him or actually became acquainted with him. The best I remember, he was there when I got there, and it was my understanding that he had already been there before I got there.

In other words, all the other kids knew him from the previous year.

The thing that stands out most in my mind about him is that when we would go outside for unsupervised play, when we weren't engaged in games supervised by the teacher, where we were just turned loose and allowed to do what we wanted to, we would break down into little groups, and I remember the boys called them gangs.

We used to say, "Are you in so-and-so's gang", and there were several key people, all boys in the class, who seemed to, I don't know if they were organizers, or just somehow assumed the responsibility of being the leaders.

But there were, I couldn't say how many, maybe three or four boys who, you know, acted as leaders of these gangs, as we called them, and I recall fairly vividly that Lee Oswald was one of the leaders of one of these gangs. And we would do, one gang would start chasing the other gang. It was just a bunch of horseplay, horsing around.

Mr. Liebeler. How many kids were involved in this altogether?

Mr. Vinson. Well, the boys in our class.

Mr. Liebeler. The boys in your second grade?

Mr. Vinson. In our second grade class, and I venture to say there may be 15 or so.

Mr. Liebeler. Fifteen?

Mr. Vinson. Well, now, you mean in the class?

Mr. Liebeler. Yes.

Mr. Vinson. I imagine from the way classes generally run, they were—there were probably about 30 students in our room, in our class, and I can't remember whether the boys outnumbered the girls or not, but I would say maybe 15 or 16, or maybe a little less boys.

And maybe these so-called gangs would just include two or three people in addition to the leader. This has been so long ago that it is very vague, but I do remember this.

And I remember that Oswald was pretty stocky and well built, and it seemed that the other boys used to look up to his—let me start over. They seemed to look up to him because he was so well built and husky and everything and it seemed like all the rest of us were a bunch of little guys, but I remember we would make reference to Lee being big and strong and this sort of thing. And this could be because, from what I judge, he was a little bit older than most of the boys, almost a year. The age makes a little more difference at that period than later on.

And it seemed that this so-called gang that he was head of seemed to be the top one, and all the boys would look up to anybody that was a member of his little group.

And they seemed to look up to him and he was considered sort of a tough-guy type, although not as a bully.

Mr. Liebeler. He wasn't a bully?

78 Mr. Vinson. Not that I remember. I don't think he was at all because I remember several other boys who were, and I just don't recall that he had any tendencies like that.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you remember him getting into any fights with anybody?

Mr. Vinson. No; none other than just playful fights, just wrestling out on the schoolground. Really not out of anger.

Mr. Liebeler. He never had any occasion to fight with these other boys who you have described as bullies?

Mr. Vinson. Not that I recall.

Mr. Liebeler. Were you a member of Oswald's gang?

Mr. Vinson. No; I wasn't.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you remember the names of any of the fellows who were?

Mr. Vinson. No; I don't. Like I say, this was just a playlike sort of thing, you know, and I don't know that.

Mr. Liebeler. Can you remember anything else about Oswald and these out-of-school activities?

Mr. Vinson. I don't remember anything about him out of school.

Mr. Liebeler. I mean out of the classroom?

Mr. Vinson. Out of the classroom, no; I don't know. In the classroom, I don't think he was a discipline problem at that time, because the teacher we had was pretty much of a hot-headed lady. Or maybe I shouldn't say that. Maybe not hot headed, but she was a teacher and she had a big paddle and she kept that in the cloakroom, and I remember that certain boys repeatedly got the treatment, and I don't remember Oswald ever having this happen to him.

He might have been called down for talking or something. Of course just about everybody is for one time or another, but he seemed very—my recollection of him, he seemed fairly quiet. Just he didn't make a lot of noise. He didn't brag or shoot off his mouth a lot. He just seemed to be a quiet type of kid.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you think that his position as gangleader or one of the gangleaders was the result of just his physical size?

Mr. Vinson. Yes; I think that had a great deal to do with it. I think he was not tall. I was looking at our class picture, and there were several others that were taller and actually all around bigger than he was, but he was just sort of solidly built, just sort of stocky. And this is something that I don't really remember. I was talking to our teacher later on who, incidentally, said she did not remember him at all.

Mr. Liebeler. What is her name?

Mr. Vinson. Mrs. Florine Murphy, and she still teaches the second grade at that school, and she said she had talked to another boy in the class who had remembered him.

Mr. Liebeler. Did she tell you what his name was?

Mr. Vinson. Bill Barnes.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you know Barnes?

Mr. Vinson. I know who he is. I remember that he was in my room that year. We moved from that area uptown, and I only went to that school 1 year, and I remember his name, and I remember who he was, and I had occasion to see him several other times in Fort Worth.

He went to TCU over there, and I think he was a cheerleader or something, and I saw him at the TCU football games, and I just had run across him several times, but recently not to speak to him. I just saw him and remembered that he was in my room at grade school.

Mr. Liebeler. Have you discussed with him his recollection of Oswald?

Mr. Vinson. No; I didn't. I couldn't get hold of him.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you try?

Mr. Vinson. Yes; I think I didn't try hard enough. I think I just didn't get an answer at the house or something.

Mr. Liebeler. Did Mrs. Murphy tell you what conversation she had with Barnes about Oswald?

Mr. Vinson. Let me back up a minute. I believe she told me that she talked to Barnes' mother rather than Barnes himself, and Barnes' mother repeated something that Barnes had told her about remembering Oswald.

79 Mr. Liebeler. Well, for whatever it is worth, what did Mrs. Murphy tell you that Mrs. Barnes had told her, that Bill Barnes had told his mother about Oswald?

Mr. Vinson. Well, this really apparently has no bearing on the thing, but it just goes along with the whole business. Barnes said that he remembered Oswald, and he remembered that the boy used to always ask him why he was so big and strong and he replied in the manner of Popeye, "I eat me spinach".

That I do remember, although as far as Oswald speaking is concerned, I recall that I thought his dialect was a little unusual, and he would say things like "Give me dat," or "dis" for this, and I took somehow I took, or associated this with New England or New York or Brooklyn or something, and I think this sort of substantiated my opinion of him as a tough guy, because at that time all the gangster movies, all the gangsters were always from Brooklyn and talked with a Brooklyn or sort of dialect, and somehow I thought this made him tough.

But I later found out, of course, that he had lived in New Orleans and possibly this had something to do with it, or possibly there was a speech impediment. I don't know, but I do remember that was what—was one thing that I do recall about him was the way he spoke.

Mr. Liebeler. Apparently from what you have told us, he didn't have any particular difficulty getting along with the other boys?

Mr. Vinson. Not that I recall at all. Now, I don't know what he did after—outside of school. Like I say, to my knowledge, I knew a good many of the boys in the class, and to my knowledge, none of them ever played with him or went to his house for anything after school. They could have, but I don't know.

Mr. Liebeler. Did that seem strange to you at all, in view of the fact that Oswald was referred to as a leader on the school ground?

Mr. Vinson. It didn't at the time. However, it did later, it seemed strange now. I don't recall that I thought anything at all about it at the time.

Mr. Liebeler. But you knew of none of the boys who ever went to Oswald's house or associated with him outside of the classroom or outside of the playground, at that time?

Mr. Vinson. I knew of none, that is right.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you know where Oswald lived?

Mr. Vinson. I didn't, but I somehow had the notion perhaps I had seen him walking home, but I had an idea about where he lived, about where I thought he lived, however, I don't know. I never went to his house or I never knew anyone who did, or anything like that.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you know whether Oswald had any brothers or sisters?

Mr. Vinson. No.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you ever see Oswald after you left the second grade at Lily B. Clayton School and moved away to another section at Fort Worth?

Mr. Vinson. If I did, I don't recall. It is possible, because I do recall that I ran across several of the kids that I had gone to school with over there after I moved away, but I don't know whether he was one of them. I just don't remember.

Mr. Liebeler. What school did you go to? What school after you left Lily B. Clayton?

Mr. Vinson. G. E. Talldy Elementary School.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you go to high school from elementary school?

Mr. Vinson. No. I went to that school from the third grade to the sixth grade, and then to junior high for 3 years.

Mr. Liebeler. What junior High.

Mr. Vinson. Meadowbrook Junior High.

Mr. Liebeler. Is that in Fort Worth, also?

Mr. Vinson. Yes.

Mr. Liebeler. And from there you went to high school?

Mr. Vinson. Polytechnic High School.

Mr. Liebeler. Also in Fort Worth?

Mr. Vinson. Yes.

Mr. Liebeler. Have you gone to college?

80 Mr. Vinson. Yes.

Mr. Liebeler. Where?

Mr. Vinson. I went to two colleges. I went to Arlington State College.

Mr. Liebeler. For how long?

Mr. Vinson. Well, it is broken up into a couple of segments. I went there in the fall of 1958, and the spring of 1959. The fall of 1959 and the spring of 1960. Part of the summer of 1960. Half of the summer, one semester. I did not go to college at all in the fall of 1960.

Then in the spring of 1961 I went back to Arlington State College, and in the fall of 1961, I went to Arlington State College, and the spring of 1962 I transferred to North Texas University in Denton. I went there that semester, both semesters, all of 1962, and the spring of 1962. The spring of 1963—excuse me, and half of the summer of 1963.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you graduate from that school?

Mr. Vinson. Yes.

Mr. Liebeler. What did you major in?

Mr. Vinson. Journalism.

Mr. Liebeler. Have you ever met anybody since you moved away from Lily B. Clayton that knew Oswald either at Lily B. Clayton or anywhere else?

Mr. Vinson. I talked on the telephone to Richard Garrett. I wrote an article in the Star Telegram dealing with the fact that I had gone to school with Oswald in the second grade, and I couldn't pin it down and we really went off half-cocked without being certain when I wrote the story, when the story was published, although I did remember the name, and I had the class picture, and we compared it with some later class pictures, and we were all convinced it was the same person, although I could never find the teacher that—the day I was trying to do this and I couldn't get access to any records showing that he had gone there in the second grade.

But nevertheless, I went ahead and did the article, but I was trying to contact everyone I could who had known him, to see if they could help me, and I talked to Richard Garrett who is mentioned in the Life Magazine story. He had known of Oswald in the sixth grade, and he had seen Oswald again when Oswald came to Arlington Heights High School for a short time, and he told me just a few things.

I didn't talk to him long. I asked him, of course, if he recalled what elementary schools he had gone to, and he said that he didn't, although he knew that he had gone to some others in Fort Worth.

Mr. Liebeler. He, being Oswald?

Mr. Vinson. Yes.

Mr. Liebeler. Where did Garrett know of Oswald in the sixth grade?

Was that Lily B. Clayton?

Mr. Vinson. No. Oswald left Lily B. Clayton, according to Don Jackson who wrote this Life article. He did some real extensive research on it. I see you have a copy there.

Mr. Liebeler. You are referring to the article on Oswald which appears in the February 21, 1964, issue of Life Magazine, is that correct?

Mr. Vinson. Yes. On page 69, it quotes Garrett. It was the fifth and sixth grades. I was trying to find which school it was. I believe it was Ridglea West Elementary School.

Mr. Liebeler. Did Garrett tell you this or you just said this on the basis of the article?

Mr. Vinson. Yes, he told me this, too. Well, actually, I can't remember offhand, but I was just trying to refer to this to see if this is accurate, and I feel sure, I believe it was Ridglea West.

Mr. Liebeler. Would it be the George Clark Elementary School?

Mr. Vinson. No. That was another year.

Mr. Liebeler. I believe Oswald did originally go to that school?

Mr. Vinson. Yes. Ridglea West Elementary was Mrs. Clyde Livingston. And then it mentioned his fourth grade marks revealed a downward trend.

Mr. Liebeler. What else did you talk to Garrett about?

Mr. Vinson. Well, as far as the school is concerned, I don't remember offhand. I think it was Ridglea West. Garrett told me that he had known Oswald81 in the fifth and sixth grades, or I believe that is what he says in here. I believe he told me specifically the sixth, and then he said that he saw him again in high school when Oswald came to high school at Arlington Heights High School. And he said he approached him, that Oswald approached Garrett something to the effect that, asked him if he remembered him from grade school, and I believe Garrett said that he didn't at first, but after awhile, he finally thought back and remembered who he was. And he told me that Oswald mentioned something about communism to him somehow. He was trying to sell Garrett on the idea of communism.

Mr. Liebeler. That was while Oswald was in the Arlington High School?

Mr. Vinson. That was what Garrett said, and Garrett said he went to the principal about this, and he said that a few days later he did not see Oswald any more, and he didn't know if he had been withdrawn or expelled or what the situation was.

Mr. Liebeler. He never associated with Oswald to any particular degree at this point?

Mr. Vinson. Not at this point. He said he "shied away from him after he gave me this communism pitch."

Mr. Liebeler. Did Garrett tell you when this was? What grade in high school he was in?

Mr. Vinson. If he did, I don't recall. I think it was the sophomore year in high school, the 10th grade. It says in this article, but if this has got to come from my recollection, I would think it was the 10th grade.

Mr. Liebeler. Did Garrett tell you anything else?

Mr. Vinson. That is all. I just let him go because he couldn't help me much. Somebody else was already doing the story on him and what he remembered about him, and I was just trying to pin down what school Oswald went to in the second grade, at that time.

Mr. Liebeler. You said that you yourself wrote an article in the Fort Worth newspaper about your own acquaintanceship with Oswald in the second grade?

Mr. Vinson. Yes.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you have a copy of that with you?

Mr. Vinson. No; I don't. I thought about bringing one, but I don't know if that would be needed or not, since what I am telling you is in effect what I said in there. I don't think there is anything I haven't told you that is in there, with the exception, I think I mentioned something in there that it seemed to me that he didn't make very good grades.

Now this was just something I am not sure of, but that is just the way it seemed. And I mentioned something else that to the best of my memory he read fairly well when the students were called on to read aloud. I don't recall that he had any difficulty, because I remember several who did, and he was not among those that I recall as having trouble along those lines.

Mr. Liebeler. Other than Garrett, had you ever met anybody or talked to anybody who knew Oswald?

Mr. Vinson. No; I hadn't. Well, excuse me, yes, I have, too, on the telephone. I talked to Mrs. Livingston who is mentioned in this story. Some people from Life contacted me that saw the story I had in the Star Telegram, and asked me to help try to locate some of the people in Fort Worth for their story, and I made a few phone calls for them, and I did talk to Mrs. Livingston. But what I talked to her about was not about Oswald himself, but rather we were trying to locate a class picture, and we didn't talk about his personality or anything. It was just who had a picture that Life could borrow.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you find one?

Mr. Vinson. Yes. Don Jackson, the author of the story came down, and at that time she said she didn't know of any. However, Jackson came down and went and talked to her and he turned up with these two down at the bottom of the page. One which shows him on the playground, and the other which shows Mrs. Livingston with a dog that Oswald had given her.

Mr. Liebeler. You are referring to pages 68-B and 69, of the Life Magazine which we mentioned above?

Mr. Vinson. Right.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you recognize the scene in this picture on page 68-B?

82 Mr. Vinson. No; because that was not when I was in the second grade, or in the same school with him. I believe that was in the fourth grade. Maybe the third.

Mr. Liebeler. The scene is not familiar to you and does not appear to be near the Lily B. Clayton School?

Mr. Vinson. No; it doesn't.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you talk to Jackson personally in connection with this article?

Mr. Vinson. Yes.

Mr. Liebeler. You told him essentially what you have told us and what he has reported to you as having said on page 68-B? In the article, is that correct?

Mr. Vinson. Yes. Excuse me, could you ask me that again I am not sure I understand.

Mr. Liebeler. You told him essentially what you have told us and what he has reported you as having said on page 68-B, in the article, is that correct?

Mr. Vinson. What he reported to me as having said is taken from the story that I wrote in the Star Telegram.

Mr. Liebeler. You did not tell him this personally?

Mr. Vinson. I did tell him in effect in my own words, but rather than use what I told him, I don't know why, for some reason he just quoted from my story. He didn't attribute that statement to the story. However, I noticed——

Mr. Liebeler. But it is a direct quote of what you had said in your story in the Fort Worth Star?

Mr. Vinson. I believe the story is slightly changed toward the end of the paragraph. Let me look at it. Where it says according to our code, I believe the wording was, "According to the code of us 7- and 8-year olds being in Lee's gang was a high honor." I believe that is about the only big change.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you have any other conversations with Jackson about Oswald other than what we have discussed here about Oswald?

Mr. Vinson. Well, about what I knew of Oswald?

Mr. Liebeler. Yes.

Mr. Vinson. Well, one day he came by the office in Arlington and talked to me for about an hour, and I told him what I have told you about what I remembered about Oswald, and then I gave him the information that I had gathered about some other people who possibly had pictures. And this was something else I was getting around to. I did talk to some of the people named in this story, in Fort Worth, in an attempt to get some pictures, and he went to—went ahead and contacted them anyway after I had already talked to them. He was a little more persistent than I was, and it is his story and his job, and I was just doing it in my spare time, but I didn't get too far in locating any pictures, and he decided to go ahead and try a little harder with some of the people that I had already talked to. One of whom was Nick Ruggieri, who at that time, or at the time Oswald came to high school, was B-team football coach at Arlington Heights High School, and Oswald had come out for football. Now this is not what Ruggieri told me. This is what Jackson told me and what I have read in the story.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you talk to Ruggieri?

Mr. Vinson. Yes; I did.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you discuss this with him?

Mr. Vinson. Yes. And he told me he barely remembered the kid, something to that effect. He said he had come out for a few days and just didn't show up after awhile. There is something in the story I think, that gives that, and I think it quotes another coach who said he quoted Oswald as saying it was a free country, or something, that he didn't have to run sprints, if he didn't want to, or something to that effect.

Mr. Liebeler. When you talked to Ruggieri, he didn't mention anything about that, did he?

Mr. Vinson. No; he didn't. He just brushed it aside very hurriedly. He didn't remember much about it except he had come out for the B-team and he had disappeared after a few days.

Mr. Liebeler. On page 72, of the article, Ruggieri is quoted as saying, "I83 told the boy myself that if he wanted to play, he had to finish practice with a sprint, just like the others.

"He gave me the same answer. I told him to hand in his cleats."

The answer refers to a statement that Oswald is reported to have made to Ruggieri that he, Oswald, would not sprint with the other boys, saying that this was a free country and he didn't have to run if he didn't want to.

Did you ever discuss this subject with Ruggieri?

Mr. Vinson. No; I didn't. I don't know if he was just being evasive and didn't want to answer me, or what. But like I say, I didn't press him for any direct information about Oswald, but I just casually asked if he knew him.

I believe I didn't even ask him anything specifically about Oswald.

I called him and told him who I was and that Life Magazine asked me to try to locate some pictures for them of Oswald, and I asked him did he know of any existing that I might be able to make arrangements for Life to get ahold of, and I think he just volunteered that he didn't remember much about Oswald, and I didn't press it.

But apparently Jackson talked to him and he was a little more free to speak with Jackson than he was with me.

Mr. Liebeler. Has the FBI ever talked to you?

Mr. Vinson. No.

Mr. Liebeler. Secret Service?

Mr. Vinson. The only time the Secret Service talked to me was last night when he called and asked me to come over here.

Mr. Liebeler. Can you think of anything else that we haven't covered that you think would be helpful to the Commission's work as far as your knowledge of Oswald is concerned, or your discussions with others about Oswald?

Mr. Vinson. The only thing that I can think of offhand, this has probably been brought to your attention, I don't know—I feel sure it has—of the allegation by another magazine that this picture on the cover of Life is a composite picture and is not really the actual thing, that they somehow acquired the picture of somebody else holding the rifle and somehow got ahold of the picture of his head and glued it on. I didn't read this. This was in Newsweek. I didn't read it. I was told about it.

Mr. Liebeler. Yes; that matter has already come to the attention of the Commission.

Mr. Vinson. There was one other thing that I noticed also. Maybe I am wrong and I should possibly go back and reread this before I make any statements but I notice in the picture there is a scope on the rifle, and it was my understanding that the rifle came to him without a scope, and he didn't buy a scope until the fall of 1963, and it says in the magazine this picture was made in the spring of 1963, apparently shortly after he bought the rifle. I think it says he bought it in March.

Mr. Liebeler. Where did you learn that the rifle did not have a scope on it when he bought it?

Mr. Vinson. I think this just was something that came out in my discussion with some other reporters, or just in casual conversation just—somebody just made the observation.

Mr. Liebeler. Have you seen a newspaper report to the effect that a telescopic sight was mounted on the rifle for somebody by the name of Oswald by the Irving Sports Shop?

Mr. Vinson. No. The only one I know about was the place in Grand Prairie, unless I got my facts all crossed up. I was thinking the only scope I knew about was mounted, I thought was mounted at the range out in Grand Prairie. Is that correct? Was there one mounted there?

Mr. Liebeler. Not as far as anybody else knows.

Mr. Vinson. Maybe I am confused. I guess I am confused about it, but I think there was something in this article that mentioned him having the scope mounted on his rifle at a specific time, which I thought was in the fall of '63.

Mr. Liebeler. There may well be something to that effect, but that doesn't necessarily make it so.

Mr. Vinson. I know.

Mr. Liebeler. But you have no direct knowledge, you haven't talked to anybody84 that ever mounted a scope or claimed to have mounted a scope for Oswald?

Mr. Vinson. No. My connection with the whole thing has not amounted to anything. I came to Dallas the day of the assassination because my newspaper sent practically everybody over here. I was at the police station. I am not a photographer. However, I carry a camera, and I was sent to the Dallas Police Station to take pictures, because I was the only one in the vicinity with a camera at that time. And I stayed there until the photographer arrived, with my camera, and just sort of generally ran errands. I didn't do any actual reporting, but that was when it first came to my attention.

Well, let me rephrase that. When I heard the name Lee Oswald, when the reporter said that the best suspect they had in custody was Lee Oswald, immediately it rang a bell, and almost immediately I remembered when I had heard it, and I associated it with my second grade class, and I even mentioned it to some of the reporters over there that day, over here that day.

Mr. Liebeler. Unless there is anything else that you can remember about your contacts with Oswald or your conversations with others about him that you think would be helpful, I have no other questions at this point, I would like to thank you for coming over from Fort Worth on such short notice.

Mr. Vinson. I am happy to do it.

Mr. Liebeler. The Commission appreciates your cooperation.

TESTIMONY OF HIRAM CONWAY

The testimony of Hiram Conway was taken at 11:50 a.m., on April 1, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Robert T. Davis, assistant attorney general of Texas, was present.

Mr. Jenner. Would you mind rising and being sworn. Do you in the testimony you are about to give swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?

Mr. Conway. I do.

Mr. Jenner. I am Albert E. Jenner, Jr. I am a member of the legal staff of the Warren Commission about which you have heard. The Warren Commission was authorized by a Senate joint resolution of the Congress of the United States to be created to investigate the circumstances leading to and surrounding the assassination of our late President John Fitzgerald Kennedy. Pursuant to that legislation President Lyndon B. Johnson by Executive Order 11130, November 1963, appointed the Commission to investigate the assassination of President Kennedy. The Chief Justice of the United States, the Honorable Earl Warren is the Chairman of that Commission and the Commission has come to be known as the Warren Commission.

The Commission is charged with sifting out the facts from fiction and to inquire into many, many details, one of which deals with a man whose name is Lee Harvey Oswald, during his lifetime. We understand you had some contact with a man by that name?

Mr. Conway. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And we want to ask you a few questions about it.

Mr. Conway. I will be glad to answer them.

Mr. Jenner. All right. Mr. Conway, you are Hiram Conway and you are a native Texan, are you?

Mr. Conway. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. What is your age?

Mr. Conway. I'm 57, will be 58 next month.

Mr. Jenner. I will be 57 next June. You reside in Fort Worth, Tex.?

Mr. Conway. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And your business, occupation, or profession is what?

Mr. Conway. Tool inspector for General Dynamics.

Mr. Jenner. The General Dynamics Corp.?

85 Mr. Conway. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Off the record.

(Discussion between Counsel Jenner and the witness Conway off the record.)

Mr. Jenner. Back on the record. How long have you held that position as tool inspector for GD?

Mr. Conway. I am sorry—will take me a moment to think.

Mr. Jenner. All right.

Mr. Conway. It was in 1945, August 25, when I went to work there—in 1945—August 23, 1945, and sometime in November, I believe the 16th, is when I went into tool inspection. That's approximate.

Mr. Jenner. Do you have any connection with Leslie Welding Co., at any time?

Mr. Conway. With what?

Mr. Jenner. With Leslie Welding Co.? [Spelling] L-e-s-l-i-e.

Mr. Conway. No, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Do you know a man by the name of Tommy Bargas?

Mr. Conway. I can't recall—I don't recall that name Tom Bargas—I don't recall the name.

Mr. Jenner. Did you ever become acquainted with or have any contact with a man known as Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. Conway. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Would you tell us the circumstances and what occurred?

Mr. Conway. Well, he was a child when he moved into our neighborhood.

Mr. Jenner. In Fort Worth?

Mr. Conway. Yes; where I live at the present time, and he moved in two doors from me, 7408, I believe it was two houses.

Mr. Jenner. Ewing?

Mr. Conway. Ewing; yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And that is a single-family frame dwelling?

Mr. Conway. Yes, sir; two bedrooms and a single bath, kitchen and dining room together.

Mr. Jenner. All right.

Mr. Conway. I'm not absolutely sure when they moved in there.

Mr. Jenner. You say "they," who is that?

Mr. Conway. His mother and his older brother, who is a half brother.

Mr. Jenner. John Pic?

Mr. Conway. Yes; his oldest brother, and then Robert Oswald.

Mr. Jenner. So, there were three boys and a mother?

Mr. Conway. That's right.

Mr. Jenner. Was there a husband or father?

Mr. Conway. No; there was no man about the house. John was the oldest one on the place.

Mr. Jenner. And about how old was he at that time?

Mr. Conway. I believe he was around 8 or 9.

Mr. Jenner. Let's see, let's see—what year was that?

Mr. Conway. Oh, it must have been—I'm not quite sure, but I moved there in 1948, and I'm not sure—I moved there in September or October.

Mr. Jenner. October of 1948?

Mr. Conway. And I'm not sure whether they moved there before the end of the year or not, but it was just shortly after I moved there.

Mr. Jenner. He was born October 18, 1939, so in 1948, at the time you are talking about, he would be approximately 9 years old.

Mr. Conway. Approximately—yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. You had children at that time?

Mr. Conway. I had one daughter.

Mr. Jenner. Age?

Mr. Conway. Well, at that time, I'm almost ashamed—I don't know exactly when my daughter was born—1933, I believe, so that would be 15.

Mr. Jenner. About 15 years old?

Mr. Conway. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. So your daughter would have had little or no contact with Lee who was then 9 years old?

86 Mr. Conway. No; very little. She was associated quite a bit with John. She and John were approximately the same age. I believe John might have been slightly older than her, maybe 1½ or 2 years, I'm not quite sure.

Mr. Jenner. Your daughter is now married?

Mr. Conway. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. What is her married name?

Mr. Conway. Mrs. J. C. Bell (Spelling) B-e-l-l.

Mr. Jenner. Where does she live?

Mr. Conway. She lives on Santa Fe, I think, it's 2904.

Mr. Jenner. Do you recall her telephone number?

Mr. Conway. CI 4-2394, it would be—Circle. I'm almost sure that's right.

Mr. Jenner. Is Mrs. Conway living?

Mr. Conway. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. How long did the family live there?

Mr. Conway. How long did they live there?

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mr. Conway. I think almost 4 years—it was in the vicinity of 4 years. It might have been just a little over or a little under, but it was approximately 4 years.

Mr. Jenner. And did these boys come to your attention?

Mr. Conway. Oh, yes; John was a real nice kid and he was a friend of mine, you know, a young friend. I taught him to play chess.

Mr. Jenner. You did?

Mr. Conway. Yes; I did, and he made an excellent player, I understand. I think he's runner-up in the championship at Lackland Air Force Base.

Mr. Jenner. Is that so?

Mr. Conway. I think so—John is a fine fellow.

Mr. Jenner. And because of your relationship especially with John Pic, you came to know the other boys, too?

Mr. Conway. Yes, sir; fairly well.

Mr. Jenner. In and around the neighborhood?

Mr. Conway. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. But having in mind Lee Oswald, at the age of 9, and by the time he left, he was 13, you had less contact with him?

Mr. Conway. I had very little contact with him, just to see him in the neighborhood was all.

Mr. Jenner. Did that contact in the neighborhood enable you to form a judgment as to his general disposition?

Mr. Conway. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Would you describe that and tell us something—some incidents about it?

Mr. Conway. Well, he was quick to anger and he was, I would say, a vile nature—he was mean when he was angry, just ornery—he was vicious almost, you might say, is the best word I can describe it.

Mr. Jenner. Did it come to your particular attention as contrasted with his two brothers, Robert and John?

Mr. Conway. Yes; John was a very genuine character, a fine boy.

Mr. Jenner. What about Robert?

Mr. Conway. Robert was much more spunky than John, but Robert didn't very often get into much trouble.

Mr. Jenner. Nothing like Lee?

Mr. Conway. No; he didn't walk up and down the street looking for children to throw stones at, like Lee did. He was a bad kid.

Mr. Jenner. Did he get into kid fights and encounters with children in the neighborhood?

Mr. Conway. Yes; he would become angry with them but as far as actually seeing him fight—the children didn't fight with him much, they got out of his way. They would hide or move on and it would be pretty hard to catch him in a fight because it would be pretty hard for him to have caught one of them.

Mr. Jenner. Was this a persistent sort of thing over a period of 4 years or were they isolated incidences?

87 Mr. Conway. Naturally, it's hard to say, but I would see those things not too often, but you know that was just the picture it built in my mind. I didn't see him very often—I have seen him try to fight with his half brother and his brother and he would tear into them and they would hold him off to try to keep him out of trouble and he would try to kick their shins, just all sort of things like that—I don't—it's been a long time.

Mr. Jenner. Was he left alone a good deal?

Mr. Conway. Yes, sir; quite a lot.

Mr. Jenner. Describe that circumstance, will you please?

Mr. Conway. That would be hard for me to describe to you too accurately because no more than I know about it, but I do know he would get home—I would hear the boys, one of them say to the other one, "Where is Lee," and they would say, "He's in the house," or something like that and that's about all I would know. But I would see him in and out. He had a dog that he was very fond of, Lee did, and I would see him play with the dog around the place and I would have reason for accurate knowledge that there was no one there but him, but so far as just being absolutely sure—I'm not.

Mr. Jenner. Do you have a recollection now whether Mrs. Oswald, his mother, worked?

Mr. Conway. Yes, sir; she did work and I have heard my wife speak of where she worked, but I don't recall. She worked days and I usually worked nights—I usually worked nights.

Mr. Jenner. So you were around the neighborhood, was that true, of this 4-year period as a rule?

Mr. Conway. I believe it was. I'm not absolutely sure but I believe it was.

Mr. Jenner. At least off and on during the 4-year period you did work nights?

Mr. Conway. I'm almost sure that I did.

Mr. Jenner. So that you would get to see these boys in the daytime and after school at least?

Mr. Conway. It's funny, but I'm not so—not absolutely sure what year I started working nights. I know I worked nights before I moved to Fort Worth and I moved to Fort Worth from Grand Prairie in 1948, and that was the—was before the Oswalds came, and I know I worked nights before they moved into that neighborhood and I took a preference to the second shift, so I did work the second shift at all times when it was possible since that time. It's more than likely that I was on the second shift almost all times they were there.

Mr. Jenner. Did a time come when the family moved?

Mr. Conway. Yes; and I don't remember exactly what year it was but it must have been in 1951 or 1952.

Mr. Jenner. If they came in 1948, and they were there 4 years, that would be 1952.

Mr. Conway. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Now; had either of the older boys already left before the family moved?

Mr. Conway. Well——

Mr. Jenner. Take this boy who you took a particular interest in—John Pic.

Mr. Conway. John went into the Coast Guard at sometime and it seems to me that he joined the Coast Guard before they moved away, but I'm awful cloudy on that.

Mr. Jenner. Well, have you exhausted your recollection on that?

Mr. Conway. Well, I don't know—I remember talking to John—John, when he is in this part of the country, he comes to my house and I remember talking to him about it and he was quite enthusiastic about the Coast Guard, but that's after he had been in the service sometime. I believe he left before his mother did. He left and went into the Coast Guard before his mother moved away.

Mr. Jenner. You—could you refresh your recollection that he did leave before the mother and Lee left?

Mr. Conway. I believe I remember that.

Mr. Jenner. And he was in the Coast Guard and stationed in New York?

Mr. Conway. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. New York City, Staten Island, as a matter of fact?

88 Mr. Conway. Well, I didn't know. He married a girl in New York City and I believe—I believe my wife told me that Mrs. Oswald told her that she was going to New York on account of John being there. After John left, I didn't have much contact with them at all, because John was my contact with them.

Mr. Jenner. Do you recall whether Robert was still with the family when Mrs. Oswald picked up and left? Or had he also entered the service?

Mr. Conway. That, I don't recall.

Mr. Jenner. You would be very helpful to us, if you would give us the names of some children at or about his age, who are still around this vicinity, whom you think might recall him.

Mr. Conway. What year did you say he was born in?

Mr. Jenner. 1939, October 18.

Mr. Conway. 1939——

Mr. Jenner. If he were alive, he would be approaching 25 years of age—this would be his 24th year and he would be 25 years old next October.

Mr. Conway. Well, I have discussed it with the Masseys, they live across the street.

Mr. Jenner. Give me their full name and address and telephone number, if you will?

Mr. Conway. And they don't remember it. It is H. R. Massey. What I was fixing to say, I was trying to eliminate the neighborhood house by house. The Masseys don't remember—I don't believe Barbara Anne does, Barbara Anne would be their daughter and she is approximately his age, but I heard her say that she didn't remember him at all.

Mr. Jenner. Is Barbara Anne living with her folks?

Mr. Conway. No, sir; she's married now. I don't know what her last name is.

Mr. Jenner. Well, maybe I could find out from her mother, Mr. and Mrs. H. R. Massey.

Mr. Conway. [Spelling] M-a-s-s-e-y.

Mr. Jenner. And they live across the street from you?

Mr. Conway. That's right—they live at 7425 Ewing.

Mr. Jenner. Do I have your permission to talk with Mrs. Conway?

Mr. Conway. Oh, yes; I suggested that she come with me and save a trip.

Mr. Jenner. Yes, that would have been nice.

Mr. Conway. I don't know why she wouldn't but she knows what she wants to do.

Mr. Jenner. I probably would like to have her come down tomorrow, if she is free, tomorrow afternoon.

Mr. Conway. Well, my wife's brother passed away last week, and it has been a considerable shock to her and she is on tranquilizers and her memory isn't as good as it would be if she wasn't in such a strain.

Mr. Jenner. Well, you mention it to her when you get home and I'll call out home sometime tonight?

Mr. Conway. All right.

Mr. Jenner. And we will leave it up to her?

Mr. Conway. I'm sure she would be glad to do all she could.

Mr. Jenner. Can you think of any others?

Mr. Conway. The Turners, they just live—oh, Bill Bridges would be the age of John Pic. He was just another one of the kids in the neighborhood that I taught to play chess at the same time, but he was older and there was no other children in that range, and John is as old as my daughter.

Mr. Jenner. Well, I might talk with him on the telephone.

Mr. Conway. I don't know where he lives. He is with Halliburton, I believe, and when he is in town he comes by to see me, too.

Mr. Jenner. Is that Halliburton, Tex.?

Mr. Conway. No; that's Halliburton Oil Co. I don't know where the home office is.

Mr. Jenner. Have you seen him around Fort Worth?

Mr. Conway. Bill?

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mr. Conway. The last time I saw him he came to my house and brought his family and it's been quite a little while ago.

89 Mr. Jenner. His first name is William and his last name is what?

Mr. Conway. Bridges (spelling) B-r-i-d-g-e-s.

Mr. Jenner. Well, we will look in the telephone book and maybe we can find him that way.

Mr. Conway. He is with Halliburton, I remember the last time I talked to him.

Mr. Jenner. The older boys were attending high school and Lee was attending elementary school, what elementary school is that?

Mr. Conway. I'm sorry—I don't know.

Mr. Jenner. And the high school?

Mr. Conway. It would be Arlington Heights. These schools are changing so rapidly and increasing so until I just don't know.

Mr. Jenner. During this period of time, did you become acquainted with Marguerite Oswald, the mother of Lee Oswald?

Mr. Conway. Yes; I knew Mrs. Oswald. She was in my house a few times.

Mr. Jenner. I wish you would give me, if you can, your impression of Mrs. Oswald, particularly with respect to the—to her care of these boys and Lee Oswald during this 4-year period.

Mr. Conway. Well, I think she was—my impression was that she felt burdened with them and I think she showed a selfish attitude towards her children.

Mr. Jenner. Selfish?

Mr. Conway. Selfish—yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Would you elaborate on that, what do you mean by that?

Mr. Conway. Well, I don't have words for it except that it appeared to me that she didn't dress them as well as she might. She didn't care—they were embarrassed about their dress.

Mr. Jenner. They were?

Mr. Conway. Some of them were—John, especially and sometimes Robert, I think, but they were very stoical, they could take it, they were good kids about it, you know.

Mr. Jenner. Did John speak to you on that subject?

Mr. Conway. No, sir; John wouldn't ever say anything against his mother. My daughter told me that someone said something about—hearsay, you see, is about all I know about such things, but my daughter told me that she heard some of the kids mention to him that his mother should buy him better clothes or shoes or something and they didn't know why she didn't, or something like that and he shouldn't give her as much of the money he made when he was doing whatever work he did and he said, "She's my mother." He stood up for her and that's all he would say.

Mr. Jenner. I take it from this remark that you just made that the boys, at least John, certainly John, did some work after school?

Mr. Conway. John sold shoes, I think, he worked in a shoe store for a time. It seems to me at that time is when they were inaugurating this distributive education thing and I believe that's how he got his job.

Mr. Jenner. And did Robert work also?

Mr. Conway. I don't know.

Mr. Jenner. What about Lee?

Mr. Conway. I don't think so. Robert would have if he could have gotten a job.

Mr. Jenner. What was your impression of Lee on that score, was he industrious or not?

Mr. Conway. Yes; he was—you mean Robert?

Mr. Jenner. No; I mean Lee.

Was he industrious?

Mr. Conway. I don't rightly know, I have lost contact with them and he was too small.

Mr. Jenner. Do you have any impression as to whether this was an emotional child?

Mr. Conway. Yes; he would become very angry and his face would flush and he would just storm at other children.

Mr. Jenner. He was quick to anger?

90 Mr. Conway. Yes; quite quick.

Mr. Jenner. And did he seem to be a sensitive, an overly sensitive child?

Mr. Conway. I suppose so—I thought he was a very strange type of person and at the time I thought he was considerably above the average in intelligence around that age—being 9 or 10 or 11, I mean, to catch on and to notice and be able to learn to do little things.

Mr. Jenner. What is your middle initial, do you have one?

Mr. Conway. P. (Spelling) P-i-e-r-c-e.

Mr. Jenner. You probably wondered why I asked you about Leslie Welding Co. Do you know a man by the name of Hiram L. Conway with Leslie Welding in Fort Worth?

Mr. Conway. No, I don't. I knew there was a Hiram—that—there's more than one Hiram Conway, about three or four in Fort Worth, I understand. I never heard of Leslie Welding.

Mr. Jenner. Oswald worked for Leslie Welding at one time.

Mr. Conway. He did?

Mr. Jenner. We have an FBI report on an interview with Hiram L. Conway and that's why I started out with you on that.

Mr. Conway. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. From the time that the Oswalds left Fort Worth in 1952, from that time on, did you ever see Lee Oswald?

Mr. Conway. Never saw him again.

Mr. Jenner. Or John?

Mr. Conway. Oh, yes; I see John.

Mr. Jenner. He comes to visit you occasionally?

Mr. Conway. John never comes to Fort Worth without coming to see me.

Mr. Jenner. And Robert?

Mr. Conway. Robert never comes to see me.

Mr. Jenner. Robert lives in Fort Worth.

Mr. Conway. Well, I don't ever see him at all.

Mr. Jenner. He never comes back to pay you a visit?

Mr. Conway. No.

Mr. Jenner. And Marguerite, have you seen her since they left?

Mr. Conway. Since when——

Mr. Jenner. Since 1952?

Mr. Conway. My wife has talked with her since then. Just briefly.

Mr. Jenner. Since November 22d?

Mr. Conway. No, it was just shortly before that, it wasn't but just a few days before that. I wouldn't think it was over 5 or 6 weeks. She ran into her in a department store. No, I don't believe that I saw Mrs. Oswald at all, but I'm not sure. I've seen her so many times on television and she looks just like she always did except a little heavier and a little older, but I don't recall having seen her, but I remember my wife did and she mentioned it to me.

Mr. Jenner. Does anything occur to you that I haven't been stimulated to ask you that you think might be of assistance to the Commission in its work?

Mr. Conway. When you were talking on the phone, I was trying to think of anything, but I don't recall anything, even worth mentioning or even to go with what you have.

When I said that Lee appeared to be a child that learned rapidly, he had picked up chess from Bill Bridges and John—you see, I taught Bill and John to play chess and Robert picked it up from them and then Lee picked it up from them, and I think I remember hearing the boys say Lee would beat them once in a while and he would become angry when he would lose a game.

Mr. Jenner. You heard that, too?

Mr. Conway. Yes, I have heard he would become angry.

Mr. Jenner. Mr. Conway, you have the privilege of reading your deposition after Miss Oliver has written it up and to sign it or to waive that privilege.

Mr. Conway. Well, I don't care anything about reading it—I know what I have said.

Mr. Jenner. If there is nothing else, this will conclude your deposition. I certainly appreciate your coming in.

91

TESTIMONY OF MRS. LILLIAN MURRET

The testimony of Mrs. Lillian Murret was taken on April 6, 1964, at the Old Civil Courts Building, Royal and Conti Streets, New Orleans, La., by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mrs. Lillian Murret, 757 French Street, New Orleans, La., after first being sworn by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, testified as follows:

Mr. Jenner. Mrs. Murret, you received, did you not, a letter from Mr. Rankin, general counsel of the President's Commission?

Mrs. Murret. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Asking you voluntarily to appear here for the taking of your deposition.

Mrs. Murret. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And there was enclosed with that letter, was there not, three documents.

Mrs. Murret. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. One was Senate Joint Resolution No. 137, which is the legislation authorizing the creation of the Presidential Commission to investigate the assassination of John Fitzgerald Kennedy, our President; another was the Executive order of President Johnson appointing the Commission and empowering it to proceed, the Executive Order being No. 11130, and a copy of the rules and regulations for the taking of testimony, adopted by the Commission itself. Did you receive those?

Mrs. Murret. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Now, if you can remember, Mrs. Murret—and don't feel offended by this—but ordinarily witnesses do nod or shake their heads and that doesn't get into the record, so if you will answer right out, then it will be in the record. Do you understand that?

Mrs. Murret. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Experienced court reporters like this gentleman do catch head nodding and head wagging, but technically they are not supposed to interpret the intent of the witness. Do you understand that, Mrs. Murret?

Mrs. Murret. I understand.

Mr. Jenner. All right. I assume that you gathered from these documents that the Commission was created and appointed to investigate all of the facts and circumstances surrounding the tragic event of November 22, 1963, did you not?

Mrs. Murret. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Mr. Liebeler and myself, we are attorneys on the legal staff of the Commission. It is our task to investigate the life of Lee Harvey Oswald from the time of his birth until his demise on the 24th of November, which was on a Sunday, 1963, which gives our Commission a pretty broad area of investigation, so to speak, and one of our purposes in particular is to take the depositions of people such as you who in any way touched the life of Lee Harvey Oswald or those with whom he was acquainted perhaps, either directly or collaterally. We understand from the FBI reports and otherwise, from FBI interviews with you, that you will be able to help us.

Mrs. Murret. Well, I will if I can.

Mr. Jenner. All right. Now, just sit back and relax. There's nothing going to happen to you. We just want to ask you what you know about Oswald, his mother, and others with whom he came in contact, to your knowledge.

Mrs. Murret. Do you just want me to tell you what I know about his life?

Mr. Jenner. Yes; as far as you know. I will just ask you questions, and I believe it will help us if you just answer them to the best of your knowledge. I wonder if we might get the lady a glass of water.

(Glass of water given to witness.)

Mrs. Murret, let me orient you for a moment. You are the sister of Lee Harvey Oswald's mother, are you not?

Mrs. Murret. Yes; I am.

Mr. Jenner. First, what was your maiden name, Mrs. Murret?

Mrs. Murret. Claverie.

92 Mr. Jenner. How do you spell that?

Mrs. Murret. C-L-A-V-E-R-I-E.

Mrs. Jenner. And your first name is Lillian?

Mrs. Murret. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Were you born in New Orleans yourself?

Mrs. Murret. New Orleans; yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And you have always lived in New Orleans; is that right?

Mrs. Murret. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Were your brothers and sisters born here?

Mrs. Murret. They were.

Mr. Jenner. In New Orleans?

Mrs. Murret. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. So that you all are native-born Americans; is that right?

Mrs. Murret. Yes, sir; native to Louisiana—Cajuns.

Mr. Jenner. Cajun and American?

Mrs. Murret. That's right.

Mr. Jenner. Then all of the family are native-born Americans; is that right?

Mrs. Murret. Well, not my grandparents.

Mr. Jenner. Not your grandparents?

Mrs. Murret. No. On my father's side were from France, and my grandparents on my mother's side were from Germany.

Mr. Jenner. Now, Mrs. Murret, once in a while I may have to ask you a question which is a little personal, but please accept my word that it is in good faith and that it is pertinent to this investigation, and my first personal question is, would you tell us what your age is?

Mrs. Murret. What my age is?

Mr. Jenner. How old are you?

Mrs. Murret. I will be 64 in May, May 17.

Mr. Jenner. And how old is Marguerite?

Mrs. Murret. I think she should be 57.

Mr. Jenner. Marguerite, I should say, is the sister of Mrs. Murret.

Now, I would like to have you tell me something about her, how many times she was married, to whom, in chronological order.

Mrs. Murret. Well, I will tell you all I know about her. I have known her all her life, you know. She was first married to Edward John Pic.

Mr. Jenner. Edward John Pic?

Mrs. Murret. That's right.

Mr. Jenner. Is that P-I-C?

Mrs. Murret. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. I think we have that as John Edward Pic. Is there an explanation for that, do you think?

Mrs. Murret. Well, I think they just reversed the name around because the child is John Edward, but I think the father's name was Edward John, because I think they always called him Eddie. Now, I don't know which way it is.

Mr. Jenner. All right. Do you happen to recall when that marriage took place?

Mrs. Murret. Well, I wouldn't remember what year, you know, or anything like that, when the marriage took place. I know about how long they were married. I think they were married about 2 years, but I'm not really too accurate as to years.

Mr. Jenner. Well, as closely as you can come to it.

Mrs. Murret. I know what happened, but the dates I just don't recall exactly, because I had my own affairs to take care of, so I can't remember dates in her life, but anyway, she was married to Eddie for 2 years, we'll say——

Mr. Jenner. Let me interrupt you for a minute. Tell me something about that marriage. Who was he? Did the marriage, take place here? Were you present? What do you know about that marriage?

Mrs. Murret. I don't know too much about the marriage. I don't think it took place here. I just don't know anything about that. It might have taken place over on the Gulf Coast. I don't know if I am right on that or not. That has been so long ago, but Marguerite did know Eddie a very long time.

Mr. Jenner. She had known him for some time before she married him?

93 Mrs. Murret. Oh, yes.

Mr. Jenner. Had you known him for some time before she married him?

Mrs. Murret. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. What was his business or occupation?

Mrs. Murret. Well, Eddie worked for Smith. I think they are stevedores.

Mr. Jenner. What did he do as a stevedore?

Mrs. Murret. Well, I don't know what type of work he did. I think it was clerical work. I think he is still with the same people.

Mr. Jenner. He is alive?

Mrs. Murret. Oh, yes. I think it's T. B. Smith, or something like that. I don't know what the initials stand for.

Mr. Jenner. T. as in Thomas?

Mrs. Murret. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And B. as in Benny?

Mrs. Murret. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Smith?

Mrs. Murret. Smith, yes.

Mr. Jenner. And you think Edward John Pic is still employed by them?

Mrs. Murret. Yes; he is—some kind of clerical work, as far as I know. The reason I know he is is because Mr. Murret, who works on the river, saw him out there, but it was from a distance.

Mr. Jenner. Your husband works on the riverfront, does he?

Mrs. Murret. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Were you married to your husband before or after Marguerite married Edward John Pic?

Mrs. Murret. I was already married.

Mr. Jenner. You were already married then?

Mrs. Murret. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And your husband does have an acquaintance with Edward John Pic, does he?

Mrs. Murret. Oh, no. He just maybe occasionally will see him from a distance, but he has never spoken with him. In fact, I don't think I would know Eddie Pic if I saw him on the street. That has been so long ago. I don't think I would recognize him myself. Eddie Pic was a very peculiar type of boy, you might say a person who did not talk unless you spoke to him, and they would come over to my home for dinner or something, and he would sit there all day long and he wouldn't say anything. Now, I don't know whether all of this is important. I don't guess some of it is.

Mr. Jenner. Don't you worry about whether you think it is important or not, Mrs. Murret. We will decide that once we get all this information assembled. You just tell me what you know about all of this, anything that comes to your mind that you think might be important to the Commission in this investigation.

Mrs. Murret. Well, at the beginning when she married Eddie, she said he wasn't fair. He told Marguerite that he was making more money than he was over there, and she had to go back to work. She worked for Mr. Sere. He was one of the lawyers in a law firm at that time, and Marguerite worked for him. It was the firm of Goldberg, Kammer and somebody else—lawyers.

Mr. Jenner. Was Sere a lawyer?

Mrs. Murret. Yes; they were all lawyers. They were three lawyers together. He was secretary there at first, but then he became a lawyer too.

Mr. Jenner. How do you spell his name?

Mrs. Murret. Mr. Sere?

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mrs. Murret. S-E-R-E.

Mr. Jenner. Is Mr. Sere still alive?

Mrs. Murret. He is not.

Mr. Jenner. He is dead?

Mrs. Murret. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. All right. Just go ahead now with what you know about Marguerite's first marriage.

Mrs. Murret. Well, the way I understood it, and this is only what she told94 me now, I know nothing, you know, other than that—but she said Eddie had lied to her about how much money he was making at this place, and that it was a very small salary that he made. He went out and rented a house in the City Park section, which was very high rent, and then it seems like he signed a lease and all that, and then after that Eddie must have told her in the meantime what he was making over at that place, and they couldn't possibly have stayed there and paid that rent on his salary, so she had to ask for her job back again, so they took her back again and then they paid for furniture that they got and so forth while she was working.

Mr. Jenner. How old was she then?

Mrs. Murret. Well, let's see—John must be about 31 years old now.

Mr. Jenner. You mean her son John?

Mrs. Murret. Yes. They were married, I think, about maybe 4 years before John was born. I don't know the dates or the times or anything, but you can figure that she is 57 now, and John is 31.

Mr. Jenner. Well, she would have been 26 when he was born, would that be about right?

Mrs. Murret. Twenty-six—I don't think she was that old; I don't know.

Mr. Jenner. Well, 31 from 57 is 26.

Mrs. Murret. Yes. Well, she could have been, but I didn't think she was that old. I thought maybe she might have been around 23 years old. Let's see—well, John wasn't born until 4 years after she was married, you see.

Mr. Jenner. Oh—well, that would be 26 less 4, so that would be 22 years.

Mrs. Murret. Yes; I think she was 22 about then, 22 or 23, somewhere in there. I didn't think she was 26 yet.

Mr. Jenner. So we can say that she was married when she was about 22 years old; is that right?

Mrs. Murret. Yes; I think that's about right.

Mr. Jenner. What was her formal education?

Mrs. Murret. She had a high school education.

Mr. Jenner. Here in New Orleans?

Mrs. Murret. Yes; McDonogh High School. She lived with Mr. Pic, say about 2 years, and then they moved into another location.

Mr. Jenner. They first were in this apartment in the City Park area?

Mrs. Murret. Well, that was during the time that she left Mr. Pic, previous to that.

Mr. Jenner. Let's start back. You said something about his having lied to her as to his income, did you not?

Mrs. Murret. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Then I believe you said he rented an apartment in the City Park area; is that right?

Mrs. Murret. That's right.

Mr. Jenner. And she found when they went out there, or whatever occurred, that he was not able to pay the rent on the salary he was making; is that right?

Mrs. Murret. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And so she went back to work.

Mrs. Murret. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Now, she remained married to him and lived with him, didn't she?

Mrs. Murret. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. All right. They lived in the City Park area how long?

Mrs. Murret. I don't know how long they lived there. I really don't, but I was thinking of another time when she lived in the City Park area. That was when I was referring to.

Mr. Jenner. We can come to that later. Let's just keep this in sequence, if you don't mind, and we'll cover all of it.

Mrs. Murret. Yes, sir; so then, they rented a house in another section. I have forgotten which section that was.

Mr. Jenner. Here in New Orleans?

Mrs. Murret. Oh, yes; and it was during that time when she became pregnant.

Mr. Jenner. Was that when they had the house?

Mrs. Murret. Yes; while they were in this regular home, you know, that they95 rented. It was in the lower section. I forget what section it was, probably somewhere up in the Carrollton section.

Mr. Jenner. Carrollton?

Mrs. Murret. Yes, sir; so then during that time she became pregnant, and I remember she came over to my house and she told me that she was pregnant, and asked what she was to do, that Eddie refused to support her. She said that he refused to give her any money because of the fact that she was pregnant.

Mr. Jenner. He didn't want any children?

Mrs. Murret. He didn't want any children, that's right.

Mr. Jenner. This would have been when they were married approximately 3 years; would that be about right?

Mrs. Murret. About 3 years married, yes, sir; about that.

Mr. Jenner. Were you and Marguerite generally, fairly close?

Mrs. Murret. We were very close.

Mr. Jenner. Very close?

Mrs. Murret. Yes. When my mother died, she left six children, and we were all young. My brother was the eldest, and I came next, and Marguerite was about 3 or 4 years old at that time, I think.

Mr. Jenner. Maybe at this point we should get the names of all your brothers and sisters. Your father died when?

Mrs. Murret. My father?

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mrs. Murret. Well, he died about 33 years ago.

Mr. Jenner. Thirty-three years ago?

Mrs. Murret. About that; yes.

Mr. Jenner. That would be approximately 1932; is that about right?

Mrs. Murret. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Leaving your mother and you children, is that right?

Mrs. Murret. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Now, when did your mother die?

Mrs. Murret. My mother died about 1911.

Mr. Jenner. Oh, she preceded your father?

Mrs. Murret. Oh, yes.

Mr. Jenner. So when your father died, you children were then orphans; is that right?

Mrs. Murret. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. At that time, when your father died, you were around 34 years of age?

Mrs. Murret. I was married when my father died. I had three children when my father died. One child was a baby.

Mr. Jenner. Now, could I have the names of just your family, that is yourself, your sisters, and your brothers?

Mrs. Murret. I have two brothers.

Mr. Jenner. Two brothers?

Mrs. Murret. And we were four sisters.

Mr. Jenner. All right, now give me the brothers' names.

Mrs. Murret. Their names are Charles and John.

Mr. Jenner. Charles Claverie and John Claverie?

Mrs. Murret. That's right.

Mr. Jenner. Are they alive?

Mrs. Murret. No; they died while at a very young age. They died 5 months apart.

Mr. Jenner. Were they teenagers?

Mrs. Murret. No. One boy was around possibly 23 years old, and the other one was about around 18 years old. The elder one contracted tuberculosis. That was during World War I. He was in the Navy.

Mr. Jenner. Was that Charles or John?

Mrs. Murret. Charles, and then John died; he also had TB.

Mr. Jenner. And he died at age 18?

Mrs. Murret. Around that; yes.

Mr. Jenner. And you had four sisters, you say?

Mrs. Murret. Including myself.

96 Mr. Jenner. Yes; including yourself.

Mrs. Murret. That's right.

Mr. Jenner. All right. One sister was Marguerite.

Mrs. Murret. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And yourself, Lillian.

Mrs. Murret. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Who else?

Mrs. Murret. Aminthe.

Mr. Jenner. Is that A-M-I-N-T-H-E?

Mrs. Murret. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Is that pronounced Aminthe?

Mrs. Murret. Yes, sir; Aminthe.

Mr. Jenner. That sounds French, is it?

Mrs. Murret. Yes; it's French.

Mr. Jenner. All right, what's the other sister's name?

Mrs. Murret. Pearl. She died.

Mr. Jenner. Pearl is dead?

Mrs. Murret. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Where is Aminthe living at the present time?

Mrs. Murret. Aminthe is living in Knoxville.

Mr. Jenner. Knoxville, Tenn.?

Mrs. Murret. Tennessee, yes.

Mr. Jenner. I take it Charles was the oldest?

Mrs. Murret. Yes; and I was next.

Mr. Jenner. You were next?

Mrs. Murret. Yes; John was next.

Mr. Jenner. John was next?

Mrs. Murret. Yes; and then Pearl and then Marguerite, and then Aminthe.

Mr. Jenner. Now, let me get those down by number. Number one was Charles, number two, that would be you, Lillian.

Mrs. Murret. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. John was third.

Mrs. Murret. John was third, that's right.

Mr. Jenner. Marguerite was fourth?

Mrs. Murret. Fourth, and Aminthe was fifth.

Mr. Jenner. How about Pearl?

Mrs. Murret. Oh, let's see—that's wrong. Aminthe was sixth.

Mr. Jenner. And Pearl was fifth?

Mrs. Murret. Yes; Pearl was fifth. No; that's still wrong. Aminthe was sixth. Marguerite was fifth, and Pearl was fourth.

Mr. Jenner. All right. Now, I've got it. I will recite it now just so that we will have it straight in the record. There was Charles, Lillian, then John, then Pearl, then Marguerite, and then Aminthe; is that right?

Mrs. Murret. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. How old was Pearl when she died?

Mrs. Murret. She died recently. She was about 54.

Mr. Jenner. She was in her fifties?

Mrs. Murret. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Did she die of natural causes?

Mrs. Murret. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. I mean, she didn't have tuberculosis, or anything like that?

Mrs. Murret. No.

Mr. Jenner. What was the occupation of your father?

Mrs. Murret. My father was a motorman for New Orleans Public Service. He worked for them approximately around 40 years.

Mr. Jenner. When you say motorman, do you mean streetcar motorman?

Mrs. Murret. Yes. They had those handbrakes at that time, and he taken out the first mule car, I think—when they had mule cars, before they had the handbrakes on the cars.

Mr. Jenner. All right. Now, did any of you children have a formal education, beyond high school?

97 Mrs. Murret. No.

Mr. Jenner. Did you all attend and finish high school, other than John who died when he was 18?

Mrs. Murret. No.

Mr. Jenner. Well, did John finish high school?

Mrs. Murret. No.

Mr. Jenner. Did Charles?

Mrs. Murret. No. Charles went in the Navy during the wartime. He made about, oh, I don't know how many trips through Germany, and he was on this transport when the United States seized the "Frederick Digross," and he wrote a beautiful history of his trip, and I loaned it out to someone, and I never did get it back.

Mr. Jenner. How unfortunate.

Mrs. Murret. Yes; I never did get it back. It was really everything that happened on the trip coming and going from New York to Germany, you know, back and forth. He was a gunner.

Mr. Jenner. On the transport, or a battleship or destroyer or cruiser?

Mrs. Murret. On the transport.

Mr. Jenner. He was a gunner on a transport?

Mrs. Murret. Transport; yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Now, Marguerite is alive and you are alive and Aminthe is alive; is that right?

Mrs. Murret. That's right. Aminthe is alive too.

Mr. Jenner. Did you complete high school?

Mrs. Murret. I did not. I didn't even go to high school.

Mr. Jenner. You did not?

Mrs. Murret. No.

Mr. Jenner. Did you complete elementary school?

Mrs. Murret. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. Jenner. What about Pearl?

Mrs. Murret. I don't think she went to high school. If she did, it was probably just a year or so. She was married at an early age.

Mr. Jenner. I think you said that Marguerite did complete high school, or did she?

Mrs. Murret. I can't remember if she completed high school or not, but she may have. I really don't remember that. If she said she did, then she did. I can't remember because, you see, we were six children, and my mother died, and my father's sisters lived here and we had some cousins who used to come over and help us, you know, and of course, I being the eldest, I was pretty busy with everything in those days. We were just trying to keep the family together more or less.

You see, my father wouldn't give any of the children up, and so forth, and so they used to come over and help us out and cook, and when I got old enough I took over, and when the others got old enough they would help out, and that went on and on. We did pretty well. We were a happy family. We were singing all the time, and I often say that we were much happier than the children are today, even though we were very poor. My father was a very good man. He didn't drink, and he was all for his family. He didn't make much salary, but we got along all right.

Mr. Jenner. The reason I am inquiring into these things is that all of this will assist the Commission in getting the background of the family and relatives of Lee Harvey Oswald. The reason I am saying that is I don't want you to think I am just being curious.

Mrs. Murret. No; I understand.

Mr. Jenner. I am trying to find out the family background so that we can ascertain to what extent all of you were involved with Lee Harvey Oswald. You understand?

Mrs. Murret. Yes. It's nothing I'm ashamed of. I'm glad I had the life I did, because I have something to look back to, because we were very happy. We didn't have anything and we just did the best we could, but we were all together and we worked together, and we made out all right.

98 Mr. Jenner. I understand. Now, was Marguerite happy, or would you say she was resentful to any extent about anything, or what was her attitude and demeanor, as you recall it? Just tell me about her personality.

Mrs. Murret. No; I don't think she was resentful in any way. She was a very pretty child, a very beautiful girl, and she doesn't look today at all like she used to, you know. You wouldn't recognize her.

Mr. Jenner. I think she's nice looking.

Mrs. Murret. Well, not like she was years ago. She was a very pretty girl, and I don't think that she was resentful of anybody.

Mr. Jenner. There seems to be some inability on her part to get along with people. That's really what I am driving at. What do you know about that?

Mrs. Murret. Well, I found that I didn't get along with her myself all the time, because our ideas were different on things, and of course she was a person who if you disagreed with her or if you expressed an opinion that she didn't agree with, then she would insist that you were wrong.

Mr. Jenner. How do you and Marguerite get along now?

Mrs. Murret. Well, we get along very well, if one or the other don't say nothing. You see, I am forgiving, but she is not.

Mr. Jenner. Tell me more about that. Tell me about when you were girls, and how you got along then.

Mrs. Murret. Well, when we were girls, we got along.

Mr. Jenner. Well, did you have to give in in order to get along with her, anything like that?

Mrs. Murret. I guess I was too busy taking care of five children to think about anything like that. I mean, I didn't realize anything like that. We did get along pretty well.

Mr. Jenner. Now, let's get to the period after your girlhood, when you had your own families. Let's start with during the time of her marriage to Edward John Pic. Did your relations remain fully cordial, or did you begin to find that there were times when you would have to yield, whether or not you were careful about what you said so as not to excite her or get in an argument with her, or anything like that?

Mrs. Murret. Well, I don't think I had to be careful with what I said. Maybe if I thought she wasn't right, I would tell her she wasn't right. I never did feel I had to be afraid to tell her anything, you know, just to keep peace or something like that. If I thought she was wrong, I would just tell her why she was wrong, why I thought she was wrong, because there were things where we just didn't think alike.

Mr. Jenner. You did not?

Mrs. Murret. No; we didn't think alike, and of course she thought I was wrong.

Mr. Jenner. She thought you were wrong?

Mrs. Murret. Yes; she did, so then I would, you know, forget about it, in other words, but it didn't seem like she could forget about anything. She would just, you know, fly off.

Mr. Jenner. You would forgive her, but she wouldn't, was that it?

Mrs. Murret. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. This propensity on her part not to forget, was that a source of irritation, and did that evidence itself in your avoiding controversy, and others in your family avoiding controversy, with her?

Mrs. Murret. Oh, no.

Mr. Jenner. All right. Now, coming to later years, was there any change? Did you avoid any difference of opinion with her, or anything that you can recall of that nature?

Mrs. Murret. Well, in later years, whatever dissensions we had or whatever it was that we would have a controversy over, she would just go off, and she wouldn't write or anything, and we wouldn't hear from her, and so forth, you know, until something turned up where she probably needed assistance or a place to stay, or she was coming to New Orleans and for us to put her up and everything. I never did hold anything in, you know what I mean, things like that.

99 Mr. Jenner. The remainder of your family, your other brothers and sisters, I think they remained in and about the New Orleans area; is that right?

Mrs. Murret. Well, they did for a while.

Mr. Jenner. Well, they all remained in and about New Orleans except for your sister Aminthe; isn't that right?

Mrs. Murret. Yes; she moved. She married and moved to Knoxville.

Mr. Jenner. But the rest of your family stayed here in the New Orleans area?

Mrs. Murret. Well, my brother stayed. They were very young, and of course long before I was married, they died, so there wasn't really anyone left, you know, except Marguerite and I. She lived with me when I first got married, she stayed with me then.

Mr. Jenner. Marguerite lived with you during your marriage?

Mrs. Murret. Yes; my father and my husband and myself, we all stayed together.

Mr. Jenner. You and your husband and your father and your sister Marguerite stayed together?

Mrs. Murret. Yes; we lived on Esplanade and Roman.

Mr. Jenner. What is the business or occupation of your husband?

Mrs. Murret. What is his occupation?

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mrs. Murret. He's a clerk for, well, he works for different companies, but mostly for Mr. Jackson. He works at different wharves, in other words.

Mr. Jenner. Different what?

Mrs. Murret. At different wharves on the riverfront. You see, he doesn't belong to a union so, therefore, he doesn't stay at one wharf. He transfers to where they have work, and sometimes if one don't have work, he will work for someone else.

Mr. Jenner. Tell me what else you know about John Pic.

Mrs. Murret. What else?

Mr. Jenner. Yes, about Edward John Pic.

Mrs. Murret. Well, about all I know about him is what she told me. She said John wasn't supporting her because, she told me, that she was pregnant and he refused to give her any money. It was a payday, I think, when she told me that, and I spoke to John, but John didn't give me any satisfaction whatever. He didn't say a thing, why or anything, what was the reason or anything.

Mr. Jenner. Did you discuss with him his refusal to support Marguerite?

Mrs. Murret. No; she left John.

Mr. Jenner. Did she leave him?

Mrs. Murret. Oh, yes. You see, she was that way, very quick. She would do things on the spur of the minute, where maybe somebody else would think it over before acting. I always think over things to give it a chance to cool off before I do something, but not Marguerite. When she left him she didn't get a divorce. She just separated. He got half of the furniture, and she got half of the furniture, I think.

Mr. Jenner. Before they were divorced?

Mrs. Murret. Before they were divorced; yes.

Mr. Jenner. Now if I may return a minute, you said she was very quick.

Mrs. Murret. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Would you elaborate on that a little?

Mrs. Murret. Yes; if I can.

Mr. Jenner. I am trying to find out as much as I can about her personality. Now, when you said she was quick, do I get an inference from that that she was hasty, or that she was impulsive, or that she would act without thinking things over?

Mrs. Murret. Yes; she would do that. She was quick in making up her mind about anything that happened. She made her decisions very fast without sleeping on them, not like me. I always try to sleep over a problem if I have to make a decision, because a lot of times I will have a different outlook on the thing the next day, but not Marguerite. She would just act right now regardless of the consequences once she made up her mind. That's what I100 mean. In other words, when she would find something that she just didn't like, that was it. She made quick decisions.

Mr. Jenner. Was this a personality trait that she had as a young girl as well as a mature lady?

Mrs. Murret. I don't remember anything like that before she was married, I mean, as we lived as sisters in the same home; no.

Mr. Jenner. It was after she left the home then, would you say, that she began to develop that trait, or that you began to detect this quick acting in her personality?

Mrs. Murret. Yes; I would say so.

Mr. Jenner. And you think she failed to think things over, that she didn't sleep on them, which was an illustration you gave a few minutes ago, but that she acted quickly when something happened or when she needed to reach a decision, is that it?

Mrs. Murret. Yes; that's right.

Mr. Jenner. She failed to sleep on something before she acted; is that right?

Mrs. Murret. Yes; she was too quick. I would have thought things over before I did them, but she wouldn't.

Mr. Jenner. In other words, she was impulsive? Would you call it that?

Mrs. Murret. You can call it that if you like.

Mr. Jenner. Well, I am just trying to shape this up into what you really knew about Marguerite and about her personality behavior. I don't mean to put words in your mouth now, and any time that I show a tendency to do that, it is inadvertent, and if that does happen I want you to say that that isn't quite the way you meant it.

Mrs. Murret. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. I want you to put it in your own words. Do you understand?

Mrs. Murret. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Would you elaborate now a little more on this personality characteristic that we have discussed? I am interested in that.

Mrs. Murret. Well, she went to live in Carrollton, which is in the City Park section, in Carrollton.

Mr. Jenner. Would you spell that for me, please?

Mrs. Murret. C-a-r-r-o-l-l-t-o-n.

Mr. Jenner. Carrollton?

Mrs. Murret. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. You will have to forgive my midwest accent, which differs from yours.

Mrs. Murret. Yes; my southern drawl.

Mr. Jenner. Well, I wouldn't call it a southern drawl. You have a distinct Louisiana accent. It's different. The Louisiana accent is not a lazy sort of thing. It has a reasonable sharpness of enunciation which you don't find, say, in Mississippi and some parts of Louisiana. I just came from Dallas, and they pronounce words with a drawl that's as long as your arm.

I happen to be a midwesterner myself, so my accent is hard, I mean, with a sharp enunciation.

Mrs. Murret. Well, during that time she was suing Eddie for a divorce.

Mr. Jenner. Now, was she working at that time?

Mrs. Murret. No; she was not working then.

Mr. Jenner. How was she being supported?

Mrs. Murret. Eddie was supporting her.

Mr. Jenner. Even though they were separated, he was supporting her?

Mrs. Murret. Well, I don't know now if he was supporting her by that time or not, but I know during the course of the divorce he had to pay Marguerite alimony, and he contributed a very fair amount, and he contributed a very good amount to John Edward, which he received until he was 18 years old.

Mr. Jenner. Well, that was pursuant to a decree of the court, I suppose.

Mrs. Murret. Yes; of course, during that time, when John was about 2 years old, she married Mr. Oswald.

Mr. Jenner. I will get to that in a minute.

Mrs. Murret. Yes.

101 Mr. Jenner. Did you have the feeling that this experience with Edward Pic embittered her?

Mrs. Murret. I really couldn't say. I don't think so, though. She seemed to be pretty happy with Mr. Oswald.

Mr. Jenner. Before we get to Oswald now, did she complain or did she show any reaction from the divorce or anything, or was she getting along all right on what he was giving her and what he was giving John?

Mrs. Murret. Well, she was getting along on what she was getting from him for herself and John, I think, and she would come over to our home. We lived on Dumaine Street at that time, but very near there, and I would give her all the help I could, and they would come over to dinner and things, but then I remember one time when John was sick, when he was a baby, he had this ear infection and she sent for Eddie. She said she was getting tired of staying up all night long, and for him to come over and stay a while, and he did.

Well, I think they had it out at that time. I don't know about that, but anyway, I think that was about the only time that Eddie saw John, was during the time that he had this ear trouble, when he was an infant. She wouldn't let John see Eddie. For myself, I thought that was cruel, because I don't believe in that.

Mr. Jenner. Now I am interested in that, Mrs. Murret. You say she refused to permit her former husband to see the child?

Mrs. Murret. Well, now I don't know whether he even asked to see the child or not. I don't know.

Mr. Jenner. Well, you did say without prompting from me that she wouldn't permit him to see the child, didn't you?

Mrs. Murret. That's right, she wouldn't.

Mr. Jenner. I draw the inference from that to mean that he might have desired to see the child, but she wouldn't permit him, but you don't know that?

Mrs. Murret. No; I don't know if he asked to see the child or not.

Mr. Jenner. But you do have a recollection that she would not let Eddie see the child; is that right?

Mrs. Murret. That's right. John never saw him after that, I don't think, not after he was a child.

Mr. Jenner. But you said she was opposed to him seeing the child; is that right?

Mrs. Murret. Oh, yes; I imagine she was.

Mr. Jenner. Did anything else occur in this marriage up to the time of Marguerite's marriage to Oswald, anything else that you would say was unusual insofar as personality is concerned?

Mrs. Murret. No; not that I can think of.

Mr. Jenner. You have mentioned a couple of aspects already.

Mrs. Murret. No; I don't know of anything else. That would be about all I know. When she became pregnant and they separated, you know, it was just probably a day after that, whatever it was, but then she sued for a divorce and went to live in Carrollton, and the divorce was granted, and she got the child, and he supported John for 18 years. He sent him a good amount. He never failed to make one payment, and of course she got alimony for herself.

Of course, living the way we did as children, we knew how to economize and live on a small amount of money, where people who have always had a lot wouldn't know how to do that.

Mr. Jenner. Of course I gather from what you have said—as a matter of fact, you said it, but had you said otherwise I would have been surprised, that your father was rearing six children, and he was a motorman on the streetcar lines here; is that right?

Mrs. Murret. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And you were necessarily poor people.

Mrs. Murret. Yes; he made $90 a month. We paid $12 a month house rent, or $14 a month house rent—I forget which—and every day he would give us each $1 to do the marketing with, and we would have something left out of the $1, believe it or not.

My sister Pearl, when she would have anything left, she would go to the102 store and buy some material and sit down and make herself a dress by hand, with what she had left from the $1, because whatever was left out of the $1 he gave us, if we had anything left, it didn't matter. We could buy anything for ourselves and so forth, that we wanted.

Mr. Jenner. You mean he gave $1 to each of you each day?

Mrs. Murret. $1 to feed the family; yes sir. We ate beans and rice and spinach and vegetables and bananas and things like that, but we didn't have big household expenses, you see. We didn't have a gas stove. We had a furnace and things like that. There were no electric lights. In the very beginning there weren't, and all of those expenses, you see, were out.

I have no bitterness toward my life as a child. In fact, I like to talk about it, because we were always so happy. We went skating. We had skates, and when we were teenagers, we would go skating around Jackson Square and the French Quarter, and so forth, and my aunt would let us take up her rug any time we wanted to dance, and she had a piano and we would go over there and dance and play the piano, and I might say that Marguerite was able to do different things. She was very entertaining. She could sing very well, not you know, to be a professional singer, but she had a good voice, and then when we had a piano that my father bought for $5 she learned to play by ear on the piano, so we really had a lot of fun.

We cooked our beans and ate our beans, and drank our coffee and ate our bread, and the rest of the time we didn't have to do all that children have to do today.

I find children today are under a great strain. Their parents want their children to grow up long before their years. They don't let them just take things in stride any more like they used to. Now, they go to the Blue Room and places like that, and they apparently think that's the thing to do.

Mr. Jenner. What's the Blue Room?

Mrs. Murret. That's in the Roosevelt Hotel.

Mr. Jenner. Is it a place of entertainment?

Mrs. Murret. Yes; entertainment, and of course they have to go bowling and they have to be baton twirlers, and they have to go to dances and all kinds of school events, and it's constantly going and coming all the time, and they just don't ever seem to relax like they used to.

They have children in my block who never stop. They have poor people around there, but they never seem to relax. They don't know how to relax apparently. My own children, well, I'm glad they didn't live like that either.

Mr. Jenner. All right now, when John Edward Pic was approximately 2 years old, your sister, Marguerite, married Mr. Oswald; is that right?

Mrs. Murret. That's right. Now, there's something else that happened during that time. She told me this, and I don't know whether it's true or not, but I guess it's true because I have never found my sister to lie about anything.

Mr. Jenner. You never have?

Mrs. Murret. No.

Mr. Jenner. Have you ever found her to have hallucinations, that things didn't actually occur that she thought had occurred, or that she had a tendency to exaggerate or overstate something?

Mrs. Murret. I would say, when you put it that way—I would say if she expected a person to do what she was thinking and a person didn't do that, well, then that was the wrong thing.

Mr. Jenner. When that happened, did she get excited about it or angry, or show any emotional trait at all?

Mrs. Murret. No; I don't think so. Now, maybe she may have appeared excited. I don't know if she was excited or not. I just always felt that she was really too quick. She would fly off too quick, and if you didn't think the way she did about anything and you tried to explain to her, you would just be wrong. You just couldn't get along with her if something would come up like that. Of course, it could be you who was at fault, so I'm not saying that she was at fault every time or anything like that. Maybe she was right, but you just couldn't reason with her if she thought she was right, and I don't think anybody can be right all the time.

103 Mr. Jenner. Tell me some more about that. You said she was unable to get along with people. Now, I would like to know more about that, just as you recall it, any incident that might have happened or anything that you noticed about Marguerite in connection with any incidents like that.

Mrs. Murret. Well, I mean, if people don't do things right, maybe it's because they have been doing some wrong things which they had no control over or something, you see what I mean, but at other times things might occur where they weren't wrong, and if she didn't see eye to eye with you, then you couldn't reason with her about it. You couldn't explain things to her, I mean. If she thought differently, then you were just wrong.

Mr. Jenner. And she was sufficiently vociferous about it?

Mrs. Murret. She was very independent, in other words. She was very independent. She didn't think she needed anyone at any time, I don't think, because no matter how much anyone would try to help her or how much they would try to do for her, she never thought that anyone was actually helping her. So often I have helped her out, quite a lot of times, but sooner or later it seemed like she would just take one little word or something that she would think was wrong, and we would have these little differences.

Mr. Jenner. You mean she would fly off the handle, so to speak?

Mrs. Murret. Yes; she would fly off, and go and that was it, and when she would do that you wouldn't hear from her or anything, and all you could do was just let things ride until she would come to New Orleans again, or something like that, and then usually she would call or if accidentally I would meet her on the street or something, and I would go ahead and give her help again.

Mr. Jenner. It would occur that when she would fly off the handle sometimes you wouldn't see her for a while?

Mrs. Murret. Oh, yes.

Mr. Jenner. Is that about the pattern of what happened when these incidents would arise?

Mrs. Murret. Yes; I think so.

Mr. Jenner. Did you make efforts to get along with her, since you were the older sister and really head of the family?

Mrs. Murret. Yes; I did.

Mr. Jenner. Did you try to mollify her and tell her that she shouldn't act that way?

Mrs. Murret. Well, that was all in later years. That was after her marriage and after my marriage, naturally. She might not like something my children were doing and so forth, and I told her that I always believed my children, whatever they told me. She asked me if I did that, and I said yes; I did, and that I had reason to believe them. I had faith in them, and I felt they would always do the right thing.

Mr. Jenner. She questioned that?

Mrs. Murret. With me, yes; I mean, about the children.

Mr. Jenner. She questioned you to the extent that she thought it was unwise, or she didn't get it that you should have faith in your children?

Mrs. Murret. That's right. She told me at one time, and I can remember this incident that happened if you want me to tell it.

Mr. Jenner. Go ahead and tell me about it.

Mrs. Murret. The incident was just recently, I may say. My son John was just married October 5.

Mr. Jenner. Of what year?

Mrs. Murret. This year, 1963—this past year.

Mr. Jenner. Your son John?

Mrs. Murret. Yes; well, she was over at the house——

Mr. Jenner. Who are you talking about now?

Mrs. Murret. Marguerite

Mr. Jenner. All right, Marguerite was over at the house, and what happened?

Mrs. Murret. Before he married this girl that he did marry, there was a young lady that he would invite over to our home quite often, you see, so Marguerite was over at the house at that time.

Mr. Jenner. You are talking about your house?

Mrs. Murret. Yes; my house; and she was just visiting alone, and it was104 a rainy day, and John and this girl friend—we were all in the front room, so to pass the time, they were passing notes to one another, and so the next day she told me about that, and she said that they were passing notes about her, so I questioned John about it, and he laughed. He has a very good disposition, and he laughed and he said, "Well, of all things," and he said, "We were passing notes telling each other what our bad traits are." He said, "She would pass me a note telling me about a bad trait I had, and then I would pass a note back to her and tell her a bad trait that she had." They were getting a big bang out of that, but Marguerite was under the impression that they were talking about her, and so I told her, I said, "Well, I believe John," and she said, "Do you believe everything they tell you?" and I said, "Yes; I believe what they tell me." Now, this was just last fall that was.

Mr. Jenner. Was that just this last fall, in October?

Mrs. Murret. No. Now, John was married in October, but I hadn't seen—this was quite a while previous to that—maybe 2 years.

Mr. Jenner. Oh, this incident occurred then back in 1961, would you say?

Mrs. Murret. About the time Lee defected to Russia. Probably about that time, or after.

Mr. Jenner. Was it after 1959? That's when Oswald defected.

Mrs. Murret. Let's see. I can't remember when that was now.

Mr. Jenner. He was mustered out in September of 1959, and he went to Russia right after that.

Mrs. Murret. I just can't remember that.

Mr. Jenner. Now, would you tell me about the Oswald marriage?

Mrs. Murret. Well, I knew Lee Oswald. He was an insurance collector on my route.

Mr. Jenner. Lee Oswald was an insurance collector?

Mrs. Murret. For Metropolitan; yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. He collected insurance premiums?

Mrs. Murret. For the Metropolitan Life Insurance Co.

Mr. Jenner. Was that weekly or monthly, or what?

Mrs. Murret. Weekly or monthly or yearly, sometimes semiannually, and so forth. He collected policy payments for them. He was a very good insurance man, I think.

Mr. Jenner. He was an energetic man?

Mrs. Murret. He was.

Mr. Jenner. When you first knew him, he was married; is that right?

Mrs. Murret. No; he was already divorced from his wife when he collected in my area.

Mr. Jenner. He was already divorced from his wife?

Mrs. Murret. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Had he had any children of that marriage?

Mrs. Murret. I don't think he did.

Mr. Jenner. What is your recollection as to how Lee Oswald and Marguerite became acquainted?

Mrs. Murret. Well, I guess he just liked Marguerite enough to marry her, and I believe Oswald was a Catholic—I'm not too sure of that—and Marguerite was a Lutheran, so he had to leave his church, naturally.

Mr. Jenner. He had to leave the church?

Mrs. Murret. Because he was divorced; yes. He was not recognized in the Catholic church. He couldn't receive the sacraments, in other words. He could go to mass.

Mr. Jenner. He happened to be Catholic?

Mrs. Murret. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Are you Catholic?

Mrs. Murret. Yes; I am.

Mr. Jenner. All right. So am I, and I just wondered if you were. Go ahead.

Mrs. Murret. So they were married in a Lutheran Church, Lee Oswald and Marguerite. They were married at the Lutheran Church on Canal Street.

Mr. Jenner. I was going to ask you what your family was by way of religion. You are Catholic.

Mrs. Murret. Yes.

105 Mr. Jenner. Have you always been Catholic?

Mrs. Murret. Well, not always. I wasn't always a Catholic. My father was Catholic, and my mother was a Lutheran, and we were baptized in the Lutheran religion.

Mr. Jenner. You were baptized in the Lutheran religion?

Mrs. Murret. Yes; and my father, who was Catholic, he always saw that we went to Sunday school.

Mr. Jenner. He would see to it that you went to the Lutheran Sunday school, to the Lutheran church?

Mrs. Murret. Yes; he did. I always thought of my father as St. Joseph. I don't know why, but I guess it was because he was so close to us children. He would take us on Christmas eve night over to church, and he probably did a lot better than a lot of women do today with a family.

Mr. Jenner. Well, he was undoubtedly quite a tolerant man then.

Mrs. Murret. Oh, yes.

Mr. Jenner. Your mother had begun to rear her children as Lutherans, so he continued that?

Mrs. Murret. Yes; he did.

Mr. Jenner. He didn't attempt to induce any of you to become converted?

Mrs. Murret. No. John Pic—rather, Eddie Pic was a Lutheran too. About the marriage to Lee Oswald, she seemed to be happy. He had everything she wanted. They lived on Taft Place in the City Park section, and then after that they built a home on Alvar Street. That was a new section then. Right now it looks awful, but at that time it was a growing section, and this was a new house, a little single house right opposite a school, and it was a very nice place.

Mr. Jenner. What's the name of the school?

Mrs. Murret. William T. Frantz, they call it.

Mr. Jenner. How do you spell Frantz?

Mrs. Murret. F-R-A-N-T-Z, I think it is.

Mr. Jenner. There were two children born of that marriage; is that right?

Mrs. Murret. Yes, sir; two children, Robert, and then Lee was born after his father died.

Mr. Jenner. Well, his father died in August 1939, and Lee was born on October 18, 1939, about 2 months after; is that right?

Mrs. Murret. Yes. Lee Oswald wanted to adopt John Edward, but my sister wouldn't hear to an adoption by him, because she said he had a father, and she was receiving this allotment for him from him, and she didn't want to change his name.

Mr. Jenner. When she married Lee Oswald, I assume her alimony terminated, did it?

Mrs. Murret. I think so, but John still received his.

Mr. Jenner. The child support continued?

Mrs. Murret. Oh, yes; now, what came in between there is what I started to tell you, about John Pic. That was after she married Oswald. There was a colored girl working in the grocery store, and John was in there—he was about 2 or a little over 2 at the time, and this young woman was in the store——

Mr. Jenner. Let me interrupt you there a moment. When you say John, are you referring to John Pic?

Mrs. Murret. Yes; that was the Pic child, and this colored woman was working in the store—you see, Marguerite didn't have any children then, because she was just recently married or something, so this young woman said to John—he was just a baby, and she said, "You're a cute little boy. What's your name?" And he said, "My name is John Edward Pic," like a child will do, drawing it out so that everybody could hear it, and she asked this colored girl, "Whose child is this?" and the colored girl told her, "That's Mrs. Oswald's boy," so that's how that happened. I gather that she didn't know anything about the Pic child, and so forth, so anyway, this young woman went home and she told her mother that a very strange thing had happened in the grocery store, and she said there was a darling little child in there, and she asked him his name and he said he was John Edward Pic, and she said, "By any chance, do you think he would be related to Eddie?" And she had married Eddie, and Eddie didn't tell her that he had a child, or that he was married or anything, and then this marriage106 was annulled—an aunt of mine saw the annullment in the paper, because she used to read everything in the paper, you know, and she's the one who knew about it. My sister did tell me the story about that.

Mr. Jenner. That marriage was a happy marriage, was it?

Mrs. Murret. The Oswald marriage?

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mrs. Murret. I think so, as far as I know. I mean, I didn't get to go over there very often, but we would visit. I had a lot of children, and naturally I had to take care of them, and we never did have anything, and of course they had a car and everything, and at times they would drop by, but we didn't visit too often.

Mr. Jenner. They had a car and they had a home?

Mrs. Murret. What's that?

Mr. Jenner. They had an automobile, you say, and they also had their own home on Alvar Street?

Mrs. Murret. Well, they were buying the home on Alvar Street, and during that time was when Mr. Oswald was cutting the grass, I think, and he took a severe pain in his arm, and she gave him some aspirin, and in the meantime she called the doctor, and he said that was the right thing to do, to give him aspirin and to rub his arm, so then it seemed like he got worse, and while she was calling the doctor to come out, he just toppled over.

Of course, the house wasn't paid for, and it seems like they had insurance on their house that Lee never did take care of, or whatever it was, and I think if they had done that, I think they would have been safe in the house, but he neglected to do that, so they didn't have no insurance on the house, or whatever it was.

Then she lived in the house, I think, over 2 years while Lee was a baby, in this house, and then she sold it. I think she sold it, and she bought another smaller house somewhere in that area. I don't remember where, and then she sold that.

Mr. Jenner. Well, hold that for a minute. We will get to that later on. When Mr. Oswald had his heart attack and died in August of 1939, did your sister return to work?

Mrs. Murret. Not right away.

Mr. Jenner. Not right away?

Mrs. Murret. No; I think Lee was around 3 years old when she returned to work. I never did ask her, you know anything about the insurance, but he probably had a good amount of insurance on himself, being an insurance man himself, I imagine. I don't know about that.

Mr. Jenner. Well, was that your impression, anyhow, that she did return to work after a period of about 3 years?

Mrs. Murret. About 3 years; yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. That would have been around 1942, approximately; is that right?

Mrs. Murret. I guess so. Now, I can't recollect what happened with Lee after that, when she went to work, or where she worked. I know I took care of Lee when he was that age.

Mr. Jenner. All right, I would like for you to tell me about that.

Mrs. Murret. When Lee was a very small child?

Mr. Jenner. Around that period when he was 3 years old, during that 3-year period, was that during the period you took care of him?

Mrs. Murret. Yes; that's when I took care of him. I offered to take care of Lee for her. It seemed like he was—I don't know how that came along, but it seems like there was someone else, I think, some lady and her husband—I couldn't tell you who they were or anything like that, but they were crazy about the child. She had told me about that and so forth, but then I met her in town one day and she was telling me how they felt about the child, but I told her, I said, "Well, I'll keep Lee for a while, you know, as long as I could." I offered to keep Lee at an age when he was a very beautiful child. Now, I wouldn't say he was smarter than any other child his age. He might have been smarter than some 3-year-olds and so forth, but he was really a cute child, very friendly, and so I kept him and I would take him to town, and when I107 would he would have on one of these little sailor suits, and he really looked cute, and he would holler, "Hi," to everybody, and people in town would stop me and say, "What an adorable child he is," and so forth, and he was always so friendly, and, of course, I did the best I could with him. The children at home liked him. John Edward and Robert are the same age as my fourth and fifth children, so—in other words, I had five children in 7 years, making them all around the same age, from 7 to 19 months apart, so, of course, everybody was of school age, grammar school. I had to get my own five children ready for school, and I didn't have any help on that and it kept me pretty busy, and that's why I guess it was that Lee started slipping out of the house in his nightclothes and going down the block and sitting down in somebody's kitchen. He could slip out like nobody's business. You could have everything locked in the house, and he would still get out. We lived in a basement house, and we had gates up and everything, but he would still get out.

Mr. Jenner. What do you mean by a basement house?

Mrs. Murret. Oh, that's one that's raised off the ground. The house has a few steps going up to the door, and it has a basement underneath, which a lot of people make into living quarters, underneath.

Mr. Jenner. All right. He was 3 years old when he was living with you at your house, and at that time she had gone back to work; is that right?

Mrs. Murret. She had gone back to work; yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. What sort of work did she do?

Mrs. Murret. She was a saleswoman. I think she worked in quite a few of the stores in town.

Mr. Jenner. Here in New Orleans?

Mrs. Murret. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. I assume her earnings were small?

Mrs. Murret. What's that?

Mr. Jenner. I assume her earnings were small?

Mrs. Murret. Oh, yes; they don't pay too much.

Mr. Jenner. What did she do with John Edward and Robert at this time?

Mrs. Murret. Well, at that time John Edward and Robert were placed in a home across the river some place. I wouldn't know the name of the home. I visited with her one time, and she didn't like it too much, and so she took them because they weren't keeping their clothes clean and so forth. The children didn't look the way she wanted them to, and she put them in the Bethlehem home. That's a Lutheran home.

Mr. Jenner. Is the Bethlehem home for Lutheran orphans?

Mrs. Murret. No; it's not exactly an orphanage. It's for children who have one parent.

Mr. Jenner. I think we will take a recess now for lunch, and we can be back here at 2 o'clock.

(Whereupon the proceeding was recessed.)

TESTIMONY OF MRS. LILLIAN MURRET RESUMED

The proceeding reconvened at 2 p.m.

Mr. Jenner. As I understand it now, Mrs. Murret, Marguerite maintained the house for approximately 2 or 3 years and reared the boy there and did not work, and at the end of that period of time, she went to work, and she lodged Lee with you and your husband and your children; is that right?

Mrs. Murret. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And that extended over a period of how long? How long did you have him?

Mrs. Murret. Oh, I think it was pretty near the time that she married Mr. Ekdahl. I think she married him about that time.

Mr. Jenner. That was 1948; is that right?

Mrs. Murret. It might have been. Now, it might have been a little before she married Ekdahl. I really can't remember that. I really didn't know Mr. Ekdahl. I met him one time. Now, I am trying to orient myself.

108 Mr. Jenner. That's all right; take your time. Do you recall about when that was?

Mrs. Murret. When she married Mr. Ekdahl?

Mr. Jenner. No; that you had the care of Lee in your home.

Mrs. Murret. That I had what?

Mr. Jenner. When Lee came to live with you temporarily; when was that?

Mrs. Murret. Oh, when he was about 3 years old.

Mr. Jenner. That would have been about 1942; is that right?

Mrs. Murret. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And he stayed with you until about the time that Marguerite married Mr. Ekdahl; is that right?

Mrs. Murret. Around that time, or a little before. She might have taken him a little bit before, a few months before she married Ekdahl. I don't recall exactly how that was now.

Mr. Jenner. She married Ekdahl in 1948; so at that time Lee would have been 9 years old; isn't that right?

Mrs. Murret. Yes; that's right. Well, then I didn't have Lee that long; not from 3 years old. He wasn't with me all that time.

Mr. Jenner. How long do you think it was that you had Lee in your home on that occasion?

Mrs. Murret. Well, I might have had Lee about 2 years.

Mr. Jenner. Would that have been from 1942 to 1943, or 1944; somewhere in there?

Mrs. Murret. Yes sir.

Mr. Jenner. He was 3 years old when he came with you; is that right?

Mrs. Murret. What's that?

Mr. Jenner. He was 3 years old?

Mrs. Murret. About 3; yes.

Mr. Jenner. When he came with you?

Mrs. Murret. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. How old was he when he left?

Mrs. Murret. Well, he was about 5 or pretty near that age, when he left me.

Mr. Jenner. Well, that keys in with this information I have. When he was about 5 years old, did he join his brothers out at the Bethlehem orphanage?

Mrs. Murret. He did. He was out there for a while.

Mr. Jenner. Did he come from your home to the orphanage?

Mrs. Murret. I really don't know that.

Mr. Jenner. I thought there might have been some incident as to why he was placed in the orphanage with his two brothers.

Mrs. Murret. Well, the incident could have been—I don't know if it was that or not, but maybe it was just that I couldn't take care of him any more, or something like that; I don't know.

Mr. Jenner. You don't have any clear recollection on that score?

Mrs. Murret. No; I don't.

Mr. Jenner. But you do have a sufficient recollection that he was about 5 years old?

Mrs. Murret. About; yes.

Mr. Jenner. When he left your home?

Mrs. Murret. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And you do remember Lee being lodged at the Bethlehem orphanage home with his two brothers, do you?

Mrs. Murret. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Did you visit the boys out there at any time?

Mrs. Murret. I visited out there with Marguerite.

Mr. Jenner. And that was on what; a weekend?

Mrs. Murret. I think it was. They had a party for the home out there, and the children themselves seemed to be very happy out there. It's an old place, but a very nice place, and it was run by a man and his wife. The children were included in everything, and the doors were kept open. In other words, the children were allowed to go out and play marbles on the outside, and they109 went to school, you know, to school in that neighborhood. I mean they weren't confined or shut in, and they seemed to have a good program of discipline. Even though they could go out and play in the immediate area, they would come in when the bell rang for supper, but I mean they were not closed in or kept locked up or anything. She also contributed to that home, I think. I don't think they would keep those boys there free.

Mr. Jenner. You're right. In the meantime she was working; is that right?

Mrs. Murret. What was that?

Mr. Jenner. She was working?

Mrs. Murret. She was working; yes.

Mr. Jenner. In some department store or something like that here in New Orleans?

Mrs. Murret. She at one time, but I don't know whether this was the time, but she worked at a hosiery shop on Canal Street. It might have been one of these Jean's—what they call Jean's Hosiery Shop over there on Canal Street. In fact, she was manager of that store at the time, as I recall, this hosiery store where she worked. I don't know what happened after she left that place. That was the time she married Ekdahl, in between there, and she left New Orleans and went to Texas.

Mr. Jenner. Do you know how long she had known Lee Oswald—that is, the father of Lee Harvey Oswald—before they were married?

Mrs. Murret. Well, John Edward was 2 years old when she married him, so I figured she must have known him about a year or more. Myself, I knew him, because he collected at my house, but I don't know whether she knew him at that time or not.

Mr. Jenner. Do you know whether she knew him before she and her husband, Edward John Pic, separated?

Mrs. Murret. I doubt it.

Mr. Jenner. Do you know whether she knew him during the period of the separation and before the divorce?

Mrs. Murret. That must have been it. She must have known him during that time.

Mr. Jenner. Give me your reaction to Mr. Oswald a little more, if you will. What kind of man was he?

Mrs. Murret. Well, he was a very outward man, a man that smiled a lot, I might say. He smiled a lot, and he seemed aggressive.

Mr. Jenner. Would you say he was energetic?

Mrs. Murret. Oh, yes; very much. He was a good worker for Metropolitan, one of their top salesmen.

Mr. Jenner. And he was an outgoing person, you say?

Mrs. Murret. He seemed to be.

Mr. Jenner. Would you call him an extrovert?

Mrs. Murret. Yes; of course, I don't know what happened at home. I can only tell you from what I noticed when I saw him, you know, but he seemed to be very aggressive and energetic, and they seemed to be getting along all right, so far as I could tell.

Mr. Jenner. During that period of time of her marriage to Lee Oswald, did you have much contact with your sister Marguerite?

Mrs. Murret. No; not very much. Like I said, I had five children myself, and we didn't have a car; so we stayed at home a lot. Mr. Murret is a man who don't care to visit relatives too much, and we didn't visit them. They came over when they would be out riding around; in other words, they might stop by or something like that, but we didn't do much visiting.

Mr. Jenner. Your husband's given name is Charles F.; is that right?

Mrs. Murret. Yes, sir; they call him "Dutz."

Mr. Jenner. That's his nickname?

Mrs. Murret. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Is that D-u-t-z?

Mrs. Murret. Yes; and they put it in the telephone book that way, because he was in the fight game years ago. He managed some fighters, and they have a lot of contact with sportswriters, and they knew him by the name of "Dutz,"110 so that's why he went and put it in the telephone book, rather than Charles, so that they would know who he was, I guess.

Mr. Jenner. Does he still use that name?

Mrs. Murret. He does.

Mr. Jenner. Is your telephone listed in that name?

Mrs. Murret. Yes; that's what I said. It's still listed that way. His uncle gave him that nickname when he was a small child, and I always knew him by the name of "Dutz." I never call him anything else but that, but his family always called him Charles.

Mr. Jenner. What business is he in?

Mrs. Murret. What's that?

Mr. Jenner. What is your husband's business again?

Mrs. Murret. He works as a clerk.

Mr. Jenner. Is there anything else you can remember about Lee Oswald, the father of Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mrs. Murret. I don't remember anything else; no. I didn't know anything about him at all other than being an insurance clerk and coming around the house to collect insurance. He sort of maybe seemed to be a little forward maybe, I thought, but, like a lot of insurance men, maybe it helps on the debits, you know.

Mr. Jenner. He was aggressive in collecting the accounts; do you mean?

Mrs. Murret. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. But not forward in any other respect?

Mrs. Murret. No; not that I know of.

Mr. Jenner. I mean he was a gentleman?

Mrs. Murret. As far as I know.

Mr. Jenner. Do you know anything about his family?

Mrs. Murret. I know nothing about the Oswald family. I only met one brother who was the godfather of Lee—little Lee Oswald, you know—and I think his name was Harvey, maybe. I wouldn't be sure about that.

Mr. Jenner. Harvey?

Mrs. Murret. I believe that's what it was, but that's about all I know about the Oswald family. He's the only one I knew or ever saw.

Mr. Jenner. Do you know where Harvey Oswald is now?

Mrs. Murret. He's dead now. I just saw him one time, and that was after Lee was born. He came over to the house, and I think they were friendly with Marguerite and all, but all of a sudden there was no more friendship. I don't know why.

Mr. Jenner. Did this friendship terminate while the marriage still existed, or was it afterward?

Mrs. Murret. I think afterward. I don't know whether there was any friendship with the Oswald family during this marriage or not. I couldn't say. She never spoke about it, but I do know, after the death of the brother, they had some dissension about something. I don't know what, but that ended that friendship with the Oswalds.

Mr. Jenner. As far as you know or were advised, that was never repaired, was it?

Mrs. Murret. I don't think so.

Mr. Jenner. Your sister married Mr. Ekdahl?

Mrs. Murret. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And your recollection of that event is what?

Mrs. Murret. What do you mean?

Mr. Jenner. What do you remember about that incident?

Mrs. Murret. Well, I don't know anything about the marriage at all, other than what you have told me about it. I only met Mr. Ekdahl one time, and they were about to be married about that time it seems like, and they say that Mr. Ekdahl was a sick man and had a bad heart, and he was a little older than she was, and she didn't seem very enthusiastic about marrying Mr. Ekdahl, and that's when his sister came down here and she liked Marguerite a lot, and she said, "Why don't you go ahead and marry him? He is lonesome," and so forth, so she just decided, I guess, to marry Ed.

Mr. Jenner. His name was Edward Ekdahl?

111 Mrs. Murret. Yes; his name was Edward Ekdahl.

Mr. Jenner. And it is your best recollection that you met him once before the marriage?

Mrs. Murret. That's all I saw him; yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Had your sister talked to you about him prior to the marriage?

Mrs. Murret. She spoke to me about him, I think. He was a high salaried man, that I know, and he did research work for Texas Electric, I think, and of course I don't think things worked out maybe too well for them, I mean, about his way of giving her money and so forth.

I guess she thought things would be different after their marriage. You see, he was sort of tight, I think, with his money. She would go to the grocery store, but he would hold the money, and of course she didn't like that part of it, I guess you know, so then she went around with Mr. Ekdahl in his travels for the company and she also took Lee with her wherever she had to go. And then Lee became of school age, and she had these other two boys in the Chamberlin-Hunt College in Mississippi.

Mr. Jenner. Is that a military school?

Mrs. Murret. Yes; and it's a high-priced military school, with beautiful uniforms and so forth, and she used her own money for these boys to go to military school. Mr. Ekdahl didn't take on that responsibility. He didn't take on any obligation like that at all, as far as I know. She said he didn't even take Lee as an obligation.

Now, whether this was all her idea or not, I don't know, because she is very independent about things. I don't know, but that's the way I understood it was, so then anyway, Lee traveled with her all over until he became of school age.

During the summertime she rented a place at Covington so that she could have her other two boys with her on vacation.

Mr. Jenner. Where is Covington?

Mrs. Murret. Covington is right out of New Orleans, not too far away, over the causeway. People more or less use it as a summer resort, and they rent homes there, just like at Biloxi and Gulfport, and so forth.

Mr. Jenner. Oh, it's off in that direction?

Mrs. Murret. Yes; so she rented a place over there, and she stayed there with the boys in the summer.

Mr. Jenner. Now, this was when she was married to Ekdahl; is that right?

Mrs. Murret. Yes, sir; she was married to Ekdahl then.

Mr. Jenner. Did they visit you once in a while?

Mrs. Murret. With Mr. Ekdahl?

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mrs. Murret. No; never. She was living in Texas at that time, but this was during the summer that she stayed at Covington.

Mr. Jenner. Where was Mr. Ekdahl during the summer when she was at Covington?

Mrs. Murret. Mr. Ekdahl was traveling for the company, but she couldn't travel with him because she had the boys during vacation time, and then Lee became of school age and he had to go to school. Now, at that time houses were hard to get, and even hotel rooms, I mean, when you were traveling and so forth, so she agreed to stay over in Covington and send Lee to school in Covington rather than go back to Texas. Now, whether she stayed with Lee when he went to school or not, I don't know.

The next I heard, well, she was back in Texas. Now, I don't know about that, how that came about, but she had this duplex. Now, if she had bought this duplex or not at one time herself, I don't know, but she had spoke something about buying a duplex.

Mr. Jenner. Here in New Orleans?

Mrs. Murret. No; in Texas, Fort Worth. So it seems like—this is what she told me; that's how I knew so much of her family life, from what she told me. So then, she told me that when they left Covington, they went back to Texas to this duplex, and now, she lived either in the upper or lower part of this duplex, but anyway, one morning she was outside in the yard and this lady who lived either in the upper or lower, whichever way it was, came out into the yard and my sister112 introduced herself as Mrs. Ekdahl, and this lady answered instead, "You are not the Mrs. Ekdahl that I know."

Well, you can put two and two together there. Now, I am only repeating what she told me, so then she got sort of scouting around, you know what I mean, and she found out different things around there, and she accused him of having someone in this house while she was over in Covington. So then she got after him and he denied everything about that, so then she said, "Well," and she just kept eyeing up the situation, you know, and one time she found something in his pockets. He had a train ticket to go on one of his trips, and she called the place and found out that he had gotten two tickets, so she told him that she would drive him to the train station, and he insisted that she not drive him, that he could go alone, but she said, well, no, she wanted to take him, and he said, no, that that would be too much trouble and silly. Well, anyway, I think she did drive him there, and when they got to the train station, I think she thought that whoever it was holding the other ticket had already picked it up, this other ticket, and was already on the train, so Mr. Ekdahl picked up his ticket and went on, and I guess she always thought he wasn't true to her after that, you see, so she said one night she followed Mr. Ekdahl——

Mr. Jenner. Who?

Mrs. Murret. She did in her car, or somebody's car, and John, and I don't know if it was one of John's friends or Robert's, but anyway they followed Mr. Ekdahl, and they saw him go into this house, and she waited a few minutes on the outside, and then she had one of the boys run up the steps, and he hollered, "Western Union," and when he hollered, "Western Union," this woman opened the door, and when she opened the door, pushed the door back, Mr. Ekdahl was sitting in the living room. When he left her, he was fully dressed, but his coat and tie and shirt was off, and he had his athletic shirt on. He had his coat and top shirt off and so forth, and he was sitting in there, so she questioned him about that, and he said he was there on business, which was absurd, because you know you don't disrobe yourself on business, so that's what started off the Ekdahl case, and then of course she wanted to get a divorce from him right away, you see, and that's why I say she's quick, you see, because I would not have gotten a divorce. I would have got a separation, because he was making a big salary, and so forth, but anyway, she wanted a divorce it seemed like, but it seemed like he had connections and he must have gone to get the divorce before she could get it, or whatever it was. She had gone to her pastor and told her pastor about it, and her pastor told her that if she would press this case against Ekdahl, that he would have a heart attack and that would make her a murderer, that she would be the cause of him dying, so he was in the hospital, I think, so she went to the hospital to see him, and I think they had a roarup there at the hospital. I don't know what that was all about because, you see, I don't know anything about all of that except what she told me. So then she got a divorce from Mr. Ekdahl, and she settled for not too very much and it wasn't very long before Mr. Ekdahl died, so that was the end of the Ekdahl affair.

Mr. Jenner. All right. Now, let me take you back to the beginning now for a few moments, if you will. We had Lee over at the Bethlehem orphanage after he left the house; is that right?

Mrs. Murret. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. He was there when he was five years old, and he stayed there until she married Mr. Ekdahl; is that right?

Mrs. Murret. Well, he was in the home awhile first. I mean, he was at my house, I would say, between 1½ and 2 years, and then I couldn't keep him any more. I guess there must have been some dissension or something.

Mr. Jenner. What kind of dissension?

Mrs. Murret. She got angry or something, and I might have told her to take her child, you know, or whatever it was, so she put him in with the other two boys in the home then.

Mr. Jenner. She was quick tempered, would you say?

Mrs. Murret. Well, that's what I mean; yes.

Mr. Jenner. She would flare up in a moment; is that right?

Mrs. Murret. Yes; you see, she was always right. She couldn't take anything113 from anybody, in other words, or you might say she was not reasonable, and especially in some things that are right, because you can keep doing and doing and doing, but then you get to the point where the other party never seems to be doing anything.

Mr. Jenner. She didn't seem to exhibit a full measure of appreciation that was warranted, is that what you mean?

Mrs. Murret. Well, I didn't keep the child for anything like that. I kept him for himself and for the love of God, and so forth, and we liked the child, but of course we had our own obligation with our own children, and this was her life. She made her own life.

Of course, I do say that maybe she made it, and then she didn't make it, because you see, it's just the way things happened. Now, whether she was the cause of these things happening or not, I don't know, but she seemed to be a victim of all these circumstances.

Mr. Jenner. But they kept repeating themselves, a number of them; isn't that right?

Mrs. Murret. Yes; they kept coming along; that's right.

Mr. Jenner. Now, she then married Mr. Ekdahl; is that right?

Mrs. Murret. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And you had met him only once, I believe you said?

Mrs. Murret. Once; that's right.

Mr. Jenner. Were you at the wedding?

Mrs. Murret. Oh, no; I didn't go to the wedding. They were married in Texas.

Mr. Jenner. Were you advised that she was about to marry him?

Mrs. Murret. I don't think I knew that she was about to marry him; no, sir. I just received a picture of her and Ekdahl on their wedding trip, and she had written on it, "Happily married," and she sent a picture of the house that they lived in. It was a very nice place, and they seemed to be doing O.K., you know.

Mr. Jenner. Were they married here in New Orleans, or were they married in Texas?

Mrs. Murret. I imagine they were married in Texas. Mr. Ekdahl was a divorced man. I guess he was a divorced man. He had to be. I don't know, but I don't think he could get married without being divorced. He had a son.

Mr. Jenner. Yes; I know he did, and his people were Boston people, were they not?

Mrs. Murret. Yes. I know she met his sister. It was her, his sister, that sort of persuaded her that she ought to go ahead and marry him. She went up to see them, I think.

Mr. Jenner. In Boston?

Mrs. Murret. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. You think his sister influenced her a lot?

Mrs. Murret. Yes; I think so.

Mr. Jenner. But she was somewhat disappointed in Mr. Ekdahl insofar as his handling of the family funds was concerned; is that right?

Mrs. Murret. Well, I imagine she was.

Mr. Jenner. Well, I don't want you to imagine. What impression did you get from what she said to you?

Mrs. Murret. Well, she just said that she thought things would be different, that since he was a high-salaried man, she didn't think she would have the kind of life she was living, like pinching pennies, and having to ask him for everything that she wanted. I think she was under the impression that he would give her so much, or I don't know anything about the amounts, you know, but that's what I gathered from what she told me.

Mr. Jenner. All right. Now, I think you said that he did not assume responsibility for any of the three children; is that right?

Mrs. Murret. That's what she said.

Mr. Jenner. And she told you when she placed her two boys, John and Robert, in the military school, what was the name of that?

Mrs. Murret. Chamberlin-Hunt Academy.

Mr. Jenner. That she was assuming the responsibility of paying their way?

Mrs. Murret. Yes; she did. She always had a lot of character. That I can114 say about her, you know, for a woman alone. She would have never done anything she wasn't supposed to do, even though she was in dire circumstances, and so forth, but one thing would come on like that, and she would just act up very quickly, like I told you, if she didn't like something happening or something you did or said, something like that. Of course, there are always two sides to every story, and I don't know the other side. I only know one side.

Mr. Jenner. Would you say that Lee lived with you from about 1939 to 1941?

Mrs. Murret. Yes; I guess it was along in there. It's hard to remember those dates exactly, that's been so long ago.

Mr. Jenner. Did he live at any time at 1010 Bartholomew Street in New Orleans?

Mrs. Murret. Yes; they did. That's the house I was trying to recollect that she bought, I think, after she left this Alvar Street residence. She bought this house on Bartholomew.

Mr. Jenner. And she lived there about a year; is that right?

Mrs. Murret. I don't know how long she lived there.

Mr. Jenner. Do you recall her living at 2136 Broadway in New Orleans?

Mrs. Murret. What street?

Mr. Jenner. Broadway.

Mrs. Murret. No; I don't.

Mr. Jenner. 2136 Broadway?

Mrs. Murret. No.

Mr. Jenner. That was just a month, about the middle of August to about the 10th of September 1942.

Mrs. Murret. I know nothing of that.

Mr. Jenner. Do you recall their residing at 227 Atlantic Avenue in Algiers?

Mrs. Murret. No, I don't. That's possibly where the boys were over there. Is that an orphanage, or whatever it was?

Mr. Jenner. I don't know. Is there an orphanage over at Algiers?

Mrs. Murret. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. That's not the Bethlehem place, is it?

Mrs. Murret. No, I don't know what orphanage that was, but they were over there in Algiers, and then they were transferred from Algiers to Bethlehem down here in New Orleans.

Mr. Jenner. Where is Bethlehem located, this Bethlehem institution?

Mrs. Murret. It's way down off of St. Claude Street somewhere, way down on the other end of town. I don't think it's there any more. It could be. It was a very old place.

Mr. Jenner. I have said that she married Mr. Ekdahl in 1948. I am afraid I am wrong about that. I think that was 1945 that she married him, which squares more with your recollection.

Mrs. Murret. Yes, I think so, because that's what I thought. Lee was around 5, and you had him down as 8, and I couldn't recollect having him at 8 years old.

Mr. Jenner. You were right in your recollection. Now, what town in Texas was it that they moved to?

Mrs. Murret. I think it was Fort Worth.

Mr. Jenner. They moved to Fort Worth?

Mrs. Murret. Yes, I think so.

Mr. Jenner. Was that address 4801 Victor? Does that refresh your recollection on that?

Mrs. Murret. Well, she lived a couple of places, you know. Do you mean after she married Mr. Ekdahl and moved to Texas, to Fort Worth?

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mrs. Murret. I don't know the address at that time. I just don't recollect that address, because she lived in some other places too. I really don't know.

Mr. Jenner. Do you recall whether she ever lived in Dallas?

Mrs. Murret. I never knew she lived in Dallas.

Mr. Jenner. Is the town of Benbrook, Tex., familiar to you?

Mrs. Murret. No; you see, I hadn't heard from her. You see, she went from New York to Texas. That was about 2 years later, I think. I just don't know that. I remember her saying that she bought some property some place in Texas, and she couldn't keep it up, and she probably mortgaged it to this man on a115 rental basis, or something like that, and they had some trouble with that; I don't know. Don't you get tired listening to this merry-go-round?

Mr. Jenner. Mrs. Murret, lawyers don't get tired.

Mrs. Murret. It would be too bad if you did.

Mr. Jenner. We are under the impression that they moved to Dallas, Tex., first and lived on Victor Street, 4801 Victor Street, in 1945 up until 1946, and then they moved to Fort Worth.

Mrs. Murret. Oh.

Mr. Jenner. I am not attempting to give you information, now; I am just asking if you recall that, or if you ever knew that?

Mrs. Murret. Well, that could be; yes, sir; but I thought they had gone to Fort Worth myself. That's what I thought.

Mr. Jenner. You didn't hear much from her during that time, did you?

Mrs. Murret. No; during those years I didn't hear much from her. Maybe she would send a card or a picture or something like that, but we didn't correspond.

Mr. Jenner. You say she sent you a picture of the house where she was living with Mr. Ekdahl?

Mrs. Murret. Yes; and she sent me a picture of herself and the boys around Christmas time, and that's about all.

Mr. Jenner. Do you have any pictures of the family, album pictures or snapshots of Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mrs. Murret. Of Lee Harvey?

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mrs. Murret. No; I don't.

Mr. Jenner. Or Mr. Ekdahl.

Mrs. Murret. I have her picture with Mr. Ekdahl when they were married.

Mr. Jenner. I wonder if you would give that to your husband and let him bring that in the morning when he comes in?

Mrs. Murret. The snapshot?

Mr. Jenner. Yes; and will you look hard and see if you have any other pictures with your children taken when they were small with Lee, and that sort of thing? (The snapshot of Mr. and Mrs. Ekdahl was produced by Mrs. Murret and was marked and admitted in evidence on her affidavit as Lillian Murret Exhibit No. 1.)

Mrs. Murret. No; I don't have any of my children with Lee when he was living with us. I have Mr. and Mrs. Ekdahl. She sent that picture, where she wrote on it, "Happily married." Like I say, I can't recollect her living in Dallas, in that home in Dallas. I always thought it was Fort Worth.

Mr. Jenner. It appears now that at least during or sometime in 1946, she lived in Covington, La., at 600 West 24th Street, and at 311 Vermont Street in Covington. Now, your recollection of that is that this was in the summer of 1946; is that right?

Mrs. Murret. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And she brought her three boys together with her there; is that right?

Mrs. Murret. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. At this time, her husband Ekdahl had not joined her, had he?

Mrs. Murret. Not that I know of. I assume he was out on his business, you know, while they were spending the summer over there. He came in periodically every 2 weeks, or every week, or whatever it was; I don't know.

Mr. Jenner. It was your impression that he was a research man for what company?

Mrs. Murret. A sick man?

Mr. Jenner. No; a research man.

Mrs. Murret. He did research for Texas Electric, and she told me his salary was over $1,000 a month.

Mr. Jenner. Which is a substantial amount of money; right?

Mrs. Murret. Oh, I imagine so, but sometimes you can get along on $250 better than $1,000.

Mr. Jenner. That's right. Now, let me delve into that a little bit. If it was $1,000 a month, she at that time regarded it as a very substantial income; is that right?

116 Mrs. Murret. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And you people as well would regard that as a substantial income; is that right?

Mrs. Murret. We people?

Mr. Jenner. Yes, the Murret family.

Mrs. Murret. My family?

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mrs. Murret. Yes, sir; we would think we were millionaires if we had that much money, but still I think we always did a lot with our money. Our main reason was for our family. That's why my husband wanted to educate his children. That was his main reason, because he knew how tough it is in the outside world, so he wanted them at least to have that much. Of course, these are children who liked to go to school and who liked to study. You take this girl out there, she is studying all the time.

Mr. Jenner. You mean your daughter who is outside waiting for you now?

Mrs. Murret. Yes, sir; she is still studying, and Gene he is still studying. Like I said before, we all worked together to see that everybody got his chance. John was a top athlete in school, and then he went to St. Louis U.

Mr. Jenner. St. Louis?

Mrs. Murret. Yes; he was one of the few boys that ever got a scholarship to St. Louis U. for basketball, but he only went there for about a year, and they wanted him to play at Loyola, and they kept after him when he came here on a visit, so he left St. Louis and went to Loyola.

Mr. Jenner. Loyola of Chicago?

Mrs. Murret. No; Loyola of New Orleans.

Mr. Jenner. I see.

Mrs. Murret. St. Louis University, the coach there wouldn't let him play baseball, and baseball was his love. He was a very good basketball player too, but he loved to play ball. He even played with the St. Louis Cardinals on a farm team, but he saw he would never really get anywhere as an outfielder, so he quit.

Mr. Jenner. But he was good enough to play on one of the St. Louis Cardinals farm teams; is that right?

Mrs. Murret. Yes. He was a good athlete. He was good at ball, baseball and basketball, and in fact, he went to Murray, Ky. He was one of the boys selected from the South. They had a North and South game, and he was selected from the southern section. It was an all-star game of some kind. He just won a trip to Rome with the Swift Co.

Mr. Jenner. He works for the Swift Co. now?

Mrs. Murret. Yes. He and his wife are leaving this Saturday.

Mr. Jenner. How nice.

Mrs. Murret. He earned it. I mean, he didn't win it; he earned it.

Mr. Jenner. Now, you say that while Marguerite was in Covington with the three boys in the summer of 1946, that Mr. Ekdahl continued in his travels in connection with his business?

Mrs. Murret. I assume he did; that's what he said. I don't know.

Mr. Jenner. At least he wasn't there with her and the boys?

Mrs. Murret. No.

Mr. Jenner. That was your information, that she had her boys at Covington in the summer of 1946, during vacation, but that her husband Mr. Ekdahl was not in Covington that summer; is that right?

Mrs. Murret. I don't think he was. I can't say whether he was or not, because I don't know, but she said he wasn't. I assume he was on one of these trips he made in his business, and that's why she was over there with the boys, but I don't know any of that myself. I don't think I even knew she was in Covington until I met her 1 day in town.

Mr. Jenner. Here in New Orleans?

Mrs. Murret. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And was that during that summer vacation period?

Mrs. Murret. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And she told you then that they were in Covington?

Mrs. Murret. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Had she not tried to reach you in the meantime?

117 Mrs. Murret. No; she had not.

Mr. Jenner. Is Covington very far away?

Mrs. Murret. No.

Mr. Jenner. How far away is it?

Mrs. Murret. Oh, about 100-some-odd miles. It isn't very far away.

Mr. Jenner. Did she say anything to you at that time as to how she was getting along with her husband?

Mrs. Murret. Nothing. She just mentioned the boys being on vacation over there, and Lee becoming of school age, and she thought she would just stay there while he went to school.

Mr. Jenner. You mean the fall term, when she would put him in school in Covington, La.?

Mrs. Murret. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And did she do that?

Mrs. Murret. I couldn't say whether he went to school there or not. The next I heard is when she left Ekdahl.

Mr. Jenner. When she left Ekdahl?

Mrs. Murret. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Then to summarize her life with Ekdahl, she married him and she took the boys out, the two older boys, out of the orphanage and put them in military school in Mississippi; is that right?

Mrs. Murret. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. At her own expense?

Mrs. Murret. So she said.

Mr. Jenner. Yes; so she said. That's what she told you?

Mrs. Murret. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. She kept Lee with her; is that right?

Mrs. Murret. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Was he at that time around 5 years old?

Mrs. Murret. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Or maybe a little older?

Mrs. Murret. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And she had accompanied her husband at least for a time in his travels; is that right?

Mrs. Murret. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And she had the boy Lee with her and Mr. Ekdahl; is that right?

Mrs. Murret. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. It is your impression that Ekdahl did not support Lee, but that she had to support him; is that right?

Mrs. Murret. I thought, at least she told me, that he did not support Lee either. I thought she told me that. I may be wrong on that.

Mr. Jenner. Was Ekdahl a man of formal education beyond grammar school?

Mrs. Murret. I don't know anything about Ekdahl.

Mr. Jenner. You don't know?

Mrs. Murret. No.

Mr. Jenner. But it was your impression that he was previously married and had a son; is that right?

Mrs. Murret. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. She met him here in New Orleans; is that right?

Mrs. Murret. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. You don't know under what circumstances, though, do you?

Mrs. Murret. I don't know; no, sir.

Mr. Jenner. She spoke to you nothing about the fact that he had a bad heart?

Mrs. Murret. Oh, she told me that. She said he had a bad heart; a very bad heart, I believe she said.

Mr. Jenner. And the man's sister had come down from Boston, and she approved of Marguerite, and she urged Mr. Ekdahl to marry her; is that right?

Mrs. Murret. That's right.

Mr. Jenner. And they did marry?

Mrs. Murret. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. No children were born of that marriage?

Mrs. Murret. No; I don't think she was married to him very long.

118 Mr. Jenner. They were divorced in 1948, I believe; is that right?

Mrs. Murret. Well, I don't know about the date on that.

Mr. Jenner. But they weren't married very long, and that marriage was not, as far as you know, an entirely smooth one, was it?

Mrs. Murret. Well, I only know what she told me. She told me what went on.

Mr. Jenner. And you have already told us about that.

Mrs. Murret. Yes; that was the reason for the divorce.

Mr. Jenner. Had she sold her house that she had here in New Orleans at the time she married Ekdahl?

Mrs. Murret. Yes; I think she did. She sold the Alvar Street home and moved into the Bartholomew Street home, which was a small house. It was a very low-priced residence.

Mr. Jenner. At 1010 Bartholomew?

Mrs. Murret. Yes; that's right.

Mr. Jenner. And then she sold that at a profit; is that right?

Mrs. Murret. Well, that's what she said, and that was something else about her; she started sort of getting into the business of buying property and selling it and making money off of it and so forth, but things don't just work out the way you want them to sometimes, the way you would like them to work out.

Mr. Jenner. Did she also undertake to sell insurance at one time?

Mrs. Murret. She said she did. The last time she was here, she said she was selling insurance, but whether or not she did I don't know.

Mr. Jenner. You mean last fall; when she was here last fall?

Mrs. Murret. I guess it was in the fall that she was here; yes.

Mr. Jenner. That was before the assassination?

Mrs. Murret. Oh, yes.

Mr. Jenner. She said then that she was selling insurance?

Mrs. Murret. Yes. That was after we hadn't heard from them for a very long time. I didn't even know that Lee was in the service, and so forth, and then one day he called me up from the bus station here, but during that time we hadn't heard from them until he called me from the bus station here and said he was in town and wanted a place to stay. Now, my daughter's husband was going over to Texas to a coaching school, I think to coach at Beaumont High, so we asked him if he would call them when he got over there and maybe visit and find out how they were getting along, and he did telephone, but he wasn't able to go out to the house, but they told him that there had been an accident; that she had been working in a candy shop and a glass jar fell on her nose, and that she had sustained other injuries. So he told us about that, and I wrote to her, and I sent her money, and I made up a box of clothing of whatever I thought she might need and so forth, a lot of things, and sent them to her, and every week I would send what I could, $5, $10, or whatever it was.

Mr. Jenner. When was that, Mrs. Murret? Was that in 1962 or 1963?

Mrs. Murret. That was while he was in the Marines, still in the Marines, because she said at that time she was trying to get Lee out of the Marines, but his time was nearly up, and she was pleading a hardship case, to get Lee out so he could give her some support. Now, that was over the telephone, I think.

Mr. Jenner. That was a telephone conversation you had with her?

Mrs. Murret. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Was this then in this spring; the late spring of 1959?

Mrs. Murret. Yes; I think so.

Mr. Jenner. Because he got out of the service in September of 1959.

Mrs. Murret. That's right, because after he defected here, she visited here. Now, when I talked to her over the telephone, and she told me what it was costing her financially and everything, that's when they let him out of the service, right after that, I think.

Mr. Jenner. Yes; in September of 1959.

Mrs. Murret. Yes, sir, and so then Lee came home, and she was living in this one room; so Lee stayed there 1 or 2 days, whatever it was, and then he said, "Well, this is not for me."

Mr. Jenner. Who said that?

119 Mrs. Murret. Lee said that. Lee had money that he had saved. He had saved over $1,000 or $1,400—I don't know the amount—but after he got home and stayed there 1 day, he said, "Well, this is not for me; I'm leaving."

Mr. Jenner. Lee said that?

Mrs. Murret. Yes; so he left. She thought he was coming to New Orleans; so she called me and she said that he had left by bus, and that she thought he was coming to New Orleans, and that he had worked as a runner when he was here for a while for Tujague's, and she thought he might be coming here for that reason, and that he may stop at my house, but not to tell him that she had called me, but Lee never did stop at the house. If he did, I didn't know it.

Mr. Jenner. Did he call you?

Mrs. Murret. No; he didn't call. I never heard from him, and I was waiting, and I have always felt that if he had only stopped at the house, you know, this might not have happened.

Mr. Jenner. What do you think would have happened if he had stopped by or called?

Mrs. Murret. I think we might have been able to help him get a job, or maybe we couldn't have done anything; I don't know.

Mr. Jenner. Well, you would have tried, anyhow.

Mrs. Murret. Yes; anyway, we didn't see Lee, and I had to go out that afternoon and I was under the impression, I thought maybe he did come, you know, pass by, and I asked some children in the block if they had seen somebody in the house and they said yes, that they saw someone with a small suitcase, but afterward I thought it was the Fuller brush man. I thought that afterward. So then I didn't know anything any more about Lee.

Mr. Jenner. Could we stop there a minute and go back over this? After the divorce from Ekdahl, did she continue to live in Texas?

Mrs. Murret. Yes, and that's another thing. We felt that if she could have gotten along with Ekdahl, that they would have all been together. Lee would have had someone to look up to as a father, and so forth, and things might have been different, but you can't go by what could have happened. I guess sometimes you make your own troubles.

Mr. Jenner. In any event, after Ekdahl left and they were divorced, then she remained in touch with you, but she didn't return here?

Mrs. Murret. No.

Mr. Jenner. And then, at that time, she would have had her son, Lee, and her son, John, and her son, Robert, with her; is that right?

Mrs. Murret. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. All living in in their home in Fort Worth?

Mrs. Murret. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. What, if anything, did Marguerite tell you about the way she brought Lee up; I mean with regard to whether he was to stay in the house after school, and things like that?

Mrs. Murret. Yes; she told me that she had trained Lee to stay in the house; to stay close to home when she wasn't there; and even to run home from school and remain in the house or near the house. She said she thought it would be safer to have him just do a few chores in the house, like taking the garbage cans out and things like that, than to have him outside playing when she wasn't there. She figured he wouldn't get in any trouble in the house. Maybe she thought she was making it safer for him by doing that, rather than being out with other children, but I don't know. I guess that's what happened. He just got in the habit of staying alone like that. That's probably the time that he got like that; he was with himself so much.

Mr. Jenner. I take it, however, you heard from your sister from time to time?

Mrs. Murret. What's that?

Mr. Jenner. You heard from your sister from time to time during all of this period, didn't you?

Mrs. Murret. Well, every now and then, but after she had left Ekdahl, I didn't hear from her too much. I don't know what went on. I think Robert worked at some supermarket, and so forth. He had to support the family, or120 whatever it was, and then I believe he graduated from high school, Robert did, and then I think he was in love with some little Italian girl who was a crippled girl, and she told me that the family liked Robert a lot and they were trying to get the two together to get married, but she wanted to break that up because the girl was crippled, but Robert said he loved the girl, but she was thinking that he was young and he just thought he loved the girl, and maybe if he did marry her he would find out that he didn't like her because of her being handicapped, and all that happened in there. I don't know all the details, but, anyway, Robert went in the Marines, and that ended that. He went in the Marines on his 17th birthday, as I recall.

Mr. Jenner. The same as Lee Harvey?

Mrs. Murret. Yes, sir; that must have been right after graduation. Robert was sort of a nice-looking boy, I think, but, anyway, she told me that these Italian people were trying to make a marriage between Robert and this handicapped girl. That's what she said. I don't know anything about that, really; so then Robert went in the marines, and she got a job in New York. They went to New York about that time, and she got a job with the same people that she had been working for here.

Mr. Jenner. Hosiery?

Mrs. Murret. Yes; it was the same people, but Lee didn't want to go to school over there; so he was a sort of a problem by not going to school, and one day when she was at work they came to the apartment and they got him and they took him off and put him in this place, and she had to get a lawyer, and the lawyer got him out of the place, and he told her that she had better get out of New York as fast as she could with this boy, and that's all I know about that story. And then it must have been on the way back—I didn't even know she had went to New York, but anyway, on the way back she must have come looking for a place to stay here in New Orleans, and she came to my house and we put her up for I don't know how long. It was during that time that Robert was getting out of the marines, because Robert met her at my house after she had been staying there a couple of weeks or a month, or whatever it was, and they all went back to Texas, and I didn't hear from them for a while.

Mr. Jenner. Let me interrupt you here a minute, Mrs. Murret. I will get back to that again in a moment. According to your story, when Ekdahl died, they remained in Texas until they went to New York; is that right?

Mrs. Murret. Well, I imagine that was after she separated and after Robert graduated from high school. I assume that was the time she went to New York. I don't know if I'm right on that or not.

Mr. Jenner. Does the late summer of 1952 refresh your recollection as to when she went to New York?

Mrs. Murret. 1952?

Mr. Jenner. Yes; 1952, when she went to New York.

Mrs. Murret. Well, she was living here—let's see——

Mr. Jenner. Well, she was living in Fort Worth before going to New York, I believe. Do you think that would have been in the summer of 1952?

Mrs. Murret. I can't recollect that. Maybe if you give me a lead, I might remember.

Mr. Jenner. Is the name of Ewing Street in Fort Worth, Tex., familiar to you?

Mrs. Murret. No; I don't know that one.

Mr. Jenner. Does Eighth Avenue refresh your recollection any as to an address where they lived in Fort Worth?

Mrs. Murret. I never heard from her at that address, unless that was the house that she bought, and she was having trouble with the party that bought it.

Mr. Jenner. You mean she was having trouble with the purchaser?

Mrs. Murret. Yes; he was supposed to pay rent to her. You see, she always wanted to do everything herself, and he wasn't paying her the rent, and I don't think they was paying the other, and they lost out on the deal.

Mr. Jenner. She reported that to you?

Mrs. Murret. Yes; she told me about that. Now, I don't know if that's the121 same place, the same house or not, but that was one house that she spoke about.

Mr. Jenner. Is the name Mrs. Beverly Richardson familiar to you?

Mrs. Murret. I never heard of her.

Mr. Jenner. Mrs. Llewellyn Merritt?

Mrs. Murret. I never heard of her.

Mr. Jenner. Patricia Aarons?

Mrs. Murret. I never heard of her.

Mr. Jenner. Herman Conway?

Mrs. Murret. No.

Mr. Jenner. Thomas W. Turner?

Mrs. Murret. I never heard of him.

Mr. Jenner. While Mr. Ekdahl was living with her, of course, he was supporting the family, but after he left, then that was left up to her; is that right?

Mrs. Murret. What?

Mr. Jenner. She had to support the family when Mr. Ekdahl left; is that right?

Mrs. Murret. That's right.

Mr. Jenner. She got some assistance from her sons, did she?

Mrs. Murret. Well, I think Robert was working at a supermarket, and she had to make him give her his salary, and I don't know whether John was in the Coast Guard at the time or not. I don't think he contributed anything—John, but I don't know.

Mr. Jenner. Was it your impression that about that time she was becoming increasingly despondent with life?

Mrs. Murret. I wouldn't say that. She seemed to be a person, or rather, she was a person who adjusted very easily to situations.

Mr. Jenner. She adjusted easily?

Mrs. Murret. She knew she had to do something about these things; that she had to get out and work, and so forth, to buy these boys things that they needed and to keep them going. Of course, I guess it was hard, naturally. It's hard for any woman, you know, to try to support three boys, and I don't think they ever appreciate what you do for them.

Mr. Jenner. What makes you say that?

Mrs. Murret. Well, she told me that the boys weren't helping out, I mean, John. Now, I don't know if John was married right about then or not, but I don't think he was helping out at home at all. If it had been my son, I know he would have stayed with me. He wouldn't have run out. Of course, maybe John had a family and maybe he couldn't help, I don't know.

Mr. Jenner. Did she talk to you about that, or seem despondent because her children didn't help her?

Mrs. Murret. Yes; she told me about it. Now, after Robert got married, she stayed with Robert for a while, but I think there was a little friction between her and his wife, or something. I don't know about that, except what she told me. Of course, there are always two sides to every story. I don't know. You can only repeat what one party tells you. In a way, I don't think those children showed the proper respect for their mother, and I don't think that's right regardless of the hard time she was having raising them, because I guess she was a little demanding on them at times, and I think children should have the proper respect for their parents. I know no matter what my children did, I would still love them. Mr. Murret is a good family man too, and there's nothing he wouldn't do for his children, and I have heard him tell them that no matter what happens don't you ever talk about anybody's mother, and things like that.

Mr. Jenner. Was it during this period before she moved to New York that she told you she had, as you put it, trained Lee to stay in the house?

Mrs. Murret. Well, I don't know exactly when you would say that was, but I think that's one reason why I know that Lee was so quiet; he was so much by himself, without playing with other children. She did tell me that she told Robert to come right home from school and things like that, because she thought it would be safer than being outside playing, but I don't know exactly when it was she was telling me that. I think that was while they were living122 over in Fort Worth, but anyway, she was having a hard time of it over there, and she either wrote me or called me—I don't remember which, but anyway, I told her that I would help her out, to send Lee down here for a while, and she sent Lee by train over here, and the train was about 2 hours late.

Mr. Jenner. Where did he come from at that time, from Texas?

Mrs. Murret. From Texas; yes, sir, and I asked him, I said, "Lee did you meet anyone on the train? Did you talk to anybody?" And he said, "No, I didn't talk to anybody. My mother told me not to talk to anybody." Of course, that's a good thing sometimes, not to talk to strangers, but I guess that was one of the reasons he was so much by himself. Anyway, he stayed with us for a while.

Mr. Jenner. For how long?

Mrs. Murret. About 2 weeks, 3 weeks, maybe more, until she got on her feet, and we took Lee out to ball games and bought him things, and we tried to make him happy, but it seemed like he just didn't want to get out of the house. I mean, he wouldn't go out and play. He would just rather stay in the house and read or something.

Mr. Jenner. He wouldn't want to go out and play with the other children?

Mrs. Murret. No, he wouldn't. We didn't have a television. Even though I had a husband, my sister always seemed to have more than I had. She was working, and somehow she had an automobile and a television and things that I didn't have. It was years after television had come out before we had one. We did have a radio, and Lee would take it in the back room and listen to the radio and read. He would read funnybooks and I would try to get him to go outside and play with the other children, but he wouldn't go out, so finally I just made him get out, so he did for a day or so, but then he came right back in and would go right back to reading and listening to the radio, and I practically pushed him out again, because I didn't think it was healthy for him to stay in the house all the time, just to stay in that room by himself, but finally I decided that that was what he wanted, that that was his way of life, what he wanted to do, and there wasn't much I could do about it.

We took him out after that, but he didn't seem to enjoy himself, so finally I told her to come and get him, that we didn't like for him to be there any more, because we had tried to do all we could for him. Now, maybe she thought we didn't like him, but that wasn't it. It was just that he wouldn't go out and play, and he wanted to be alone in that room all the time, and he wouldn't even talk to the other children, and he was obviously very unhappy, but anyway she came down and got him. In fact, he told her to come and get him.

Mr. Jenner. How do you know that?

Mrs. Murret. Because I saw the letter.

Mr. Jenner. He wrote a letter to her asking her to come and get him?

Mrs. Murret. Yes; I wasn't supposed to see the letter, but I did.

Mr. Jenner. You saw the letter before it was mailed?

Mrs. Murret. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And he expressed in that letter some discomfort in being at your home, did he?

Mrs. Murret. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And he was under the impression that you didn't like him?

Mrs. Murret. I guess so, because he wrote and told her that nobody around there liked him, and here everyone was knocking themselves out for him.

Mr. Jenner. Where was your sister living at that time, in Fort Worth?

Mrs. Murret. I think so; yes.

Mr. Jenner. On the occasion that she came from New York and stopped off in New Orleans, did she stay with you for a few days?

Mrs. Murret. Well, she stayed with me until she found an apartment.

Mr. Jenner. That was in your home at 757 French Street?

Mrs. Murret. Yes, sir; and that address was changed to 809 French Street.

Mr. Jenner. How was that?

Mrs. Murret. Well, it was the same house, but they changed the numbering of that block, but it was the same residence. They changed it to the 700 block.

Mr. Jenner. And how long did she stay with you on that occasion?

123 Mrs. Murret. Well, that must have been 2 weeks, 3 weeks. She was looking for a place to stay, and Robert was coming out of the service, and so that's when she found this place over on Exchange Alley before Robert came in, and she met Robert at my house, and they went right over to the apartment at Exchange Alley that she had found, but Robert left. He wouldn't stay in New Orleans.

Mr. Jenner. How many days were you looking for an apartment for her?

Mrs. Murret. Oh, I would say about a week.

Mr. Jenner. Until she found this place on Exchange Alley?

Mrs. Murret. That's right.

Mr. Jenner. What was Lee doing during that time?

Mrs. Murret. He was going to school.

Mr. Jenner. When they came back from New York and stopped at your home and lived with you temporarily, did he go to school?

Mrs. Murret. Yes; he did. That's when she enrolled him at Beauregard Junior High.

Mr. Jenner. Would that have been in January 1954?

Mrs. Murret. I don't know.

Mr. Jenner. Well, they left New York City, I think, either on the fifth or the seventh of January 1954. Now, we have an address here in New Orleans of 1464 St. Mary Street.

Mrs. Murret. Oh, that was before the Exchange Place. She rented that from this lady who was a friend of hers.

Mr. Jenner. Was that Myrtle Evans?

Mrs. Murret. Yes; Myrtle Evans. She was a friend of hers.

Mr. Jenner. I believe she also lived for a time at 1910 Prytania, didn't she?

Mrs. Murret. I think that's right. I'm not sure about those different places, I mean, how she would move from one to the other, but she was at several places up in there before she went to Exchange Place.

Mr. Jenner. Well, we appear from our records to have them living on St. Mary Street in New Orleans in May or June of 1954, until about February 1955.

Mrs. Murret. Well, I don't know anything about that. I know Myrtle Evans was managing that apartment where she lived.

Mr. Jenner. Do you know how it was that she went to live at 126 Exchange Place in New Orleans?

Mrs. Murret. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Was that 1954 or 1955?

Mrs. Murret. I don't know—whatever you have down there probably is the right year, but they lived at Myrtle's house first.

Mr. Jenner. Could it have been that Myrtle Evans lived, in the spring of 1954, at 1454 St. Mary Street?

Mrs. Murret. I don't know. Maybe that's right. I know this was a very old house where she lived. I was told that she had a family home—Myrtle—and that she had renovated it into a lot of apartments for tenants.

Mr. Jenner. How long did they stay at your house?

Mrs. Murret. At my house?

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mrs. Murret. Well, like I said, 2 weeks or 3 weeks at the most, somewhere in there.

Mr. Jenner. And you are pretty sure that they moved directly from your house into this place on Exchange Alley?

Mrs. Murret. Well, either there or to Myrtle's apartment. I don't know which, to be truthful with you.

Mr. Jenner. Now, tell me about Lee Harvey Oswald during the couple of weeks that he spent at your house. Did you notice any change in him from the time you had known him previously? He would now have been about 3 years older; isn't that right?