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Title: Warren Commission (7 of 26): Hearings Vol. VII (of 15)

Author: The President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy

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Language: English

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INVESTIGATION OF
THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY

HEARINGS
Before the President's Commission
on the Assassination
of President Kennedy

Pursuant To Executive Order 11130, an Executive order creating a Commission to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of the late President John F. Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of the man charged with the assassination and S.J. Res. 137, 88th Congress, a concurrent resolution conferring upon the Commission the power to administer oaths and affirmations, examine witnesses, receive evidence, and issue subpenas

Volume
VII

UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE

WASHINGTON, D.C.


U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE, WASHINGTON: 1964

For sale in complete sets by the Superintendent of Documents, U.S. Government Printing Office Washington, D.C., 20402


iii

PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION
ON THE
ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT KENNEDY

Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman

Biographical information on the Commissioners and the staff can be found in the Commission's Report.

A Mr. Willens also acted as liaison between the Commission and the Department of Justice.


v

Preface

The testimony of the following witnesses is contained in volume VII: Johnny Calvin Brewer, Julia Postal, Warren H. Burroughs, Bob K. Carroll, Thomas Alexander Hutson, C. T. Walker, Gerald Lynn Hill, J. M. Poe, John Gibson, James Putnam, Rio S. Pierce, Calvin Bud Owens, William Arthur Smith, George Jefferson Applin, Jr., Ray Hawkins, Sam Guinyard, and Helen Markham, who were present either in the vicinity of the Tippit crime scene or at the Texas Theatre, where Lee Harvey Oswald was arrested; L. D. Montgomery, Marvin Johnson, Seymour Weitzman, W. R. Westbrook, Elmer L. Boyd, Robert Lee Studebaker, C. N. Dhority, Richard M. Sims, Richard A. Stovall, Walter Eugene Potts, John P. Adamcik, Henry M. Moore, F. M. Turner, Guy F. Rose, W. E. Perry, Richard L. Clark, Don R. Ables, Daniel Gutierrez Lujan, C. W. Brown, L. C. Graves, James R. Leavelle, W. E. Barnes, J. B. Hicks, Harry D. Holmes, James W. Bookhout, Manning C. Clements, Gregory Lee Olds, H. Louis Nichols, and Forrest V. Sorrels, who participated in or observed various aspects of the investigation into the assassination; William J. Waldman and Mitchell J. Scibor, who testified concerning the purchase of the rifle used in the assassination; Heinz W. Michaelis, who testified concerning the purchase of the revolver used to kill Officer Tippit; J. C. Cason, Roy S. Truly, Warren Caster, Eddie Piper, William H. Shelly, and Mrs. Donald Baker, employees at the Texas School Book Depository Building; Edward Shields, an attendant at a parking lot near the TSBD; Thomas J. Kelley and John Joe Howlett of the Secret Service and J. C. Day, J. W. Fritz, and Marrion L. Baker of the Dallas police, all of whom participated in the investigation into the assassination; Mary Jane Robertson, a secretary with the Dallas police; Lyndal L. Shaneyfelt, a photography expert with the Federal Bureau of Investigation; James C. Cadigan, a questioned document expert with the Federal Bureau of Investigation; Earlene Roberts, housekeeper in the roominghouse occupied by Lee Harvey Oswald at the time of the assassination; Senator Ralph W. Yarborough, who was riding in the motorcade; Kenneth O'Donnell, Lawrence F. O'Brien, and David F. Powers, assistants to President Kennedy, who were riding in the motorcade and testified concerning the planning of the Dallas trip and the motorcade; Clifton C. Carter, assistant to President Johnson, Earle Cabell, former Mayor of Dallas, and Mrs. Earle Cabell, all of whom were riding in the motorcade; Philip L. Willis, James W. Altgens, and Abraham Zapruder, who took pictures of the motorcade during the assassination, and Linda K. Willis, Philip L. Willis' daughter; Buell Wesley Frazier, who drove Oswald home on the evening of November 21, and back to work on the morning of November 22; Joe Marshall Smith, Welcome Eugene Barnett, Eddy Raymond Walthers, James Thomas Tague, Emmett J. Hudson, and Edgar Leon Smith, Jr., who were present at the assassination scene; Perdue William Lawrence, a Dallas police captain who testified concerning the positioning of policemen along the motorcade route; Ronald G. Wittmus, a fingerprint expert with the Federal Bureau of Investigation; Robert A. Frazier, Cortlandt Cunningham, and Charles L. Killion, firearms identification experts with the Federal Bureau of Investigation; Robert Brock, Mary Brock, and Harold Russell, who were present in the vicinity of the Tippit crime scene; and David Goldstein, the owner of a firearms store in Dallas.


vii

Contents

  Page
Preface v
Testimony of—
Johnny Calvin Brewer 1
Julia Postal 8
Warren H. Burroughs 14
Bob K. Carroll 17
Thomas Alexander Hutson 26
C. T. Walker 34
Gerald Lynn Hill 43
J. M. Poe 66
John Gibson 70
James Putnam 74
Rio S. Pierce 76
Calvin Bud Owens 78
William Arthur Smith 82
George Jefferson Applin, Jr 85
Ray Hawkins 91
L. D. Montgomery 96
Marvin Johnson 100
Seymour Weitzman 105
W. R. Westbrook 109
Elmer L. Boyd 119
Robert Lee Studebaker 137
C. N. Dhority 149, 380
Richard M. Sims 158
Richard S. Stovall 186
Walter Eugene Potts 195
John P. Adamcik 202
Henry M. Moore 212
F. M. Turner 217
Guy F. Rose 227
W. E. Perry 232
Richard L. Clark 235
Don R. Ables 239
Daniel Gutierrez Lujan 243
C. W. Brown 246
L. C. Graves 251
James R. Leavelle 260
W. E. Barnes 270
J. B. Hicks 286
Harry D. Holmes 289, 525
James W. Bookhout 308
viiiManning C. Clements 318
Gregory Lee Olds 322
H. Louis Nichols 325
Forrest V. Sorrels 332, 592
William J. Waldman 360
Mitchell J. Scibor 370
Heinz W. Michaelis 372
J. C. Cason 379
Roy S. Truly 380, 591
Warren Caster 386
Eddie Piper 388
William H. Shelley 390
Edward Shields 393
Sam Guinyard 395
J. C. Day 401
Thomas J. Kelley 403, 590
J. W. Fritz 403
Mary Jane Robertson 404
Lyndal L. Shaneyfelt 410
James C. Cadigan 418
Earlene Roberts 439
Hon. Ralph W. Yarborough 439
Kenneth P. O'Donnell 440
Lawrence F. O'Brien 457
David F. Powers 472
Clifton C. Carter 474
Earle Cabell 476
Mrs. Earle Cabell 485
Philip L. Willis 492
Linda Kay Willis 498
Helen Markham 499
Mrs. Donald Baker 507
James W. Altgens 515
Buell Wesley Frazier 531
Joe Marshall Smith 531
Welcome Eugene Barnett 539
Eddy Raymond Walthers 544
James Thomas Tague 552
Emmett J. Hudson 558
Edgar Leon Smith, Jr 565
Abraham Zapruder 569
Perdue William Lawrence 577
Ronald G. Wittmus 590
Robert A. Frazier 590
Cortlandt Cunningham 591
Charles L. Killion 591
John Joe Howlett 592
Marrion L. Baker 592
Robert Brock 593
Mary Brock 593
Harold Russell 594
David Goldstein 594

ix

EXHIBITS INTRODUCED

  Page
Baker Exhibit No. 1 512
Barnes Exhibit:
A 273
B 273
C 273
D 273
E 273
F 275
Brock (Mary) Exhibit A. 593
Brock (Robert) Exhibit A. 593
Cabell Exhibit No. 1 476
Cadigan Exhibit No.:
1 419
2 419
3 419
3-A 420
4 420
5 421
6 421
7 421
8 421
9 421
10 421
11 423
12 424
13 424
14 425
15 428
16 428
17 428
18 428
19 428
20 429
21 429
22 431
23 432
24 432
25 436
26 437
27 437
28 437
29 437
30 437
Dhority Exhibit:
A 154
B 154
Gibson Exhibit A 71
Hill Exhibit:
A 50
B 52
C 53
Holmes Exhibit No.:
1 292
1-A 527
2 294
2-A 528
3 295
3-A 529
4 297
5 307
6 307
Hudson Exhibit No. 1 562
Kelley Exhibit A 403
Lawrence Exhibit No.:
1 579
2 585
3 586
4 589
Leavelle Exhibit A. 270
Markham Exhibit No.:
1 500
2 505
Michaelis Exhibit No.:
1 374
2 377
3 377
4 378
5 378
Moore Exhibit No. 1 214
Nichols Exhibit A 332
Potts Exhibit:
A-1 198
A-2 198
B 202
C 202
Putnam Exhibit No. 1 75
Robertson Exhibit No.:
1 406
2 406
3 409
Russell Exhibit A 594
Shaneyfelt Exhibit No.:
1 410
2 410
3 410
4 410
5 413
6 416
7 417
Sims Exhibit A 182
Sorrels Exhibit No.:
4 341
5 360
Stovall Exhibit:
A 190
B 193
C 195
D 195
Studebaker Exhibit:
A 139
B 139
C 140
D 141
E 142
F 144
xG 145
H 146
I 146
J 147
Tague Exhibit No. 1 556
Turner Exhibit No. 1 222
Waldman Exhibit No.:
1 361
2 363
3 363
4 364
5 364
6 366
7 366
8 366
9 367
10 367
Weitzman Exhibit:
D 108
E 108
F 108
Westbrook Exhibit:
A 114
B 117
C 117
D 117
Willis Exhibit No. 1 497
Yarborough Exhibit A 440

1

Hearings Before the President's Commission
on the
Assassination of President Kennedy

TESTIMONY OF JOHNNY CALVIN BREWER

The testimony of Johnny Calvin Brewer was taken at 3:15 p.m., on April 2, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. Belin. Will you stand and raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. Brewer. I do.

Mr. Belin. Would you please state your name for the record?

Mr. Brewer. Johnny Calvin Brewer.

Mr. Belin. How old are you, Mr. Brewer?

Mr. Brewer. Twenty-two.

Mr. Belin. Where do you live?

Mr. Brewer. 512 North Lancaster, apartment 102.

Mr. Belin. What city and state?

Mr. Brewer. Dallas, Tex.

Mr. Belin. Were you born in Texas?

Mr. Brewer. Born in Miami, Okla.

Mr. Belin. In Oklahoma?

Mr. Brewer. Yes.

Mr. Belin. When did you move to Texas?

Mr. Brewer. About 2 years after I was born. My father was foreman on a construction company and we moved to Texas.

Mr. Belin. Where did you go to school in Texas, please, sir?

Mr. Brewer. I went first year in Lockhart. The second year we moved to Houston, for a year, and we moved back to Lockhart, and I went there 10 years in Lockhart.

Mr. Belin. You graduated from high school?

Mr. Brewer. Yes.

Mr. Belin. Did you go to school after you graduated from high school?

Mr. Brewer. I went to Southwest Texas State Teachers College in San Marcos a year, and a year in Nixon Clay Business College in Austin.

Mr. Belin. Then what did you do?

Mr. Brewer. I got married and quit school and went to work for Hardy's Shoe Store. I—that was in September, and I got married in December. And I have been with them ever since.

Mr. Belin. When did you go to work for Hardy's Shoe Store?

Mr. Brewer. In September of 1961.

Mr. Belin. Do they assign you to any particular store?

Mr. Brewer. I worked at the Capital Plaza Shopping Center in Austin for about 10 months, and then they transferred me to Dallas and gave me a store down on Jefferson.

Mr. Belin. In Austin were you just a shoe salesman?

Mr. Brewer. I was assistant manager.

2 Mr. Belin. And they transferred you to a shop on Jefferson?

Mr. Brewer. Yes.

Mr. Belin. In Dallas?

Mr. Brewer. Yes.

Mr. Belin. What is the address of that shop in Dallas?

Mr. Brewer. 213 West Jefferson.

Mr. Belin. They made you the manager of that shop?

Mr. Brewer. Yes.

Mr. Belin. How long have you been manager?

Mr. Brewer. Since August of 1962.

Mr. Belin. From August 1962 on?

Mr. Brewer. Yes.

Mr. Belin. Until the present time?

Mr. Brewer. Until the day I was made manager of the downtown store.

Mr. Belin. Today is the 2d of April, or the 3d?

Mr. Brewer. Second.

Mr. Belin. You were made manager of the Hardy's Downtown Shoe Store?

Mr. Brewer. Yes, sir. It wasn't April Fool's. I thought they were firing me, but it turned out they weren't.

Mr. Belin. Did he call you in yesterday to tell you?

Mr. Brewer. Day before yesterday and told me to get ready for an audit, that I would be going to town, if I wanted it, and I said yes.

Mr. Belin. Would this be considered a promotion?

Mr. Brewer. A better store, more volume, and make more money. It would be considered a promotion.

Mr. Belin. Any children at all, Mr. Brewer?

Mr. Brewer. No.

Mr. Belin. I want to take you back to November 22, 1963. This was the day that President Kennedy was assassinated. How did you find out about the assassination, Mr. Brewer?

Mr. Brewer. We were listening to a transistor radio there in the store, just listening to a regular radio program, and they broke in with the bulletin that the President had been shot. And from then, that is all there was. We listened to all of the events.

Mr. Belin. Did you hear over the radio that the President had died?

Mr. Brewer. I heard a rumor. They said that—one of the Secret Service men said that the President had died, and said that was just a rumor.

Mr. Belin. Do you remember hearing anything else over the radio concerning anything that happened that afternoon?

Mr. Brewer. Well, they kept reconstructing what had happened and what they had heard, and they talked about it in general. There wasn't too much to talk about. They didn't have all the facts, and just repeated them mostly. And they said a patrolman had been shot in Oak Cliff.

Mr. Belin. Is Oak Cliff the area in which your shoe store was located?

Mr. Brewer. Yes, sir.

Mr. Belin. All right, would you describe what happened after you heard on the radio that an officer had been shot?

Mr. Brewer. Well, there was heard a siren coming down East Jefferson headed toward West Jefferson.

Mr. Belin. What is the dividing street between East and West Jefferson?

Mr. Brewer. Beckley.

Mr. Belin. How far is Beckley from your store?

Mr. Brewer. Two blocks.

Mr. Belin. Two blocks to the east or to the west?

Mr. Brewer. There is Zangs to the east. The first street is Zangs and the next street is Beckley.

Mr. Belin. The first street east is Zangs Boulevard and the next street is Beckley?

Mr. Brewer. Yes, right.

Mr. Belin. Is your store located to the north or south side of Jefferson?

Mr. Brewer. On the north.

3 Mr. Belin. All right.

Mr. Brewer. I looked up and out towards the street and the police cars——

Mr. Belin. When you looked up, did you step out of the store at all?

Mr. Brewer. No; I was still in the store behind the counter, and I looked up and saw the man enter the lobby.

Mr. Belin. When you say the lobby of your store, first let me ask you to describe how is—how wide is your store, approximately?

Mr. Brewer. About 20 feet.

Mr. Belin. All right, is the entrance to your store right on the sidewalk?

Mr. Brewer. The entrance to the store is about 15 feet from the sidewalk, front doors.

Mr. Belin. The front doors?

Mr. Brewer. Yes; they are recessed, and then there is windows, show windows on each side.

Mr. Belin. This would be, if we were—if we would take a look at the letter "U," or see the letter "V," your doorway would be at the bottom part of the letter and the show cases would be at the sides of the letter, is that correct?

Mr. Brewer. Yes.

Mr. Belin. What you call this lobby, that is the area between the sidewalk and your front door, is that correct?

Mr. Brewer. Yes, sir.

Mr. Belin. All right, you saw a man going into what you referred to as this lobby area?

Mr. Brewer. Yes; and he stood there with his back to the street.

Mr. Belin. When did he go in now? What did you hear at the time that he stepped into this lobby area?

Mr. Brewer. I heard the police cars coming up Jefferson, and he stepped in, and the police made a U-turn and went back down East Jefferson.

Mr. Belin. Where did he make the U-turn?

Mr. Brewer. At Zangs.

Mr. Belin. Do you remember the sirens going away?

Mr. Brewer. Yes; the sirens were going away. I presume back to where the officer had been shot, because it was back down that way. And when they turned and left, Oswald looked over his shoulder and turned around and walked up West Jefferson towards the theatre.

Mr. Belin. Let me hold you a minute. You used the word Oswald. Did you know who the man was at the time you saw him?

Mr. Brewer. No.

Mr. Belin. So at the time, you didn't know what his name was?

Mr. Brewer. No.

Mr. Belin. Will you describe the man you saw?

Mr. Brewer. He was a little man, about 5'9", and weighed about 150 pounds is all.

Mr. Belin. How tall are you, by the way?

Mr. Brewer. Six three.

Mr. Belin. So you say he was about 5'9"?

Mr. Brewer. About 5'9".

Mr. Belin. And about 150?

Mr. Brewer. And had brown hair. He had a brown sports shirt on. His shirt tail was out.

Mr. Belin. Any jacket?

Mr. Brewer. No.

Mr. Belin. What color of trousers, do you remember?

Mr. Brewer. I don't remember.

Mr. Belin. Light or dark?

Mr. Brewer. I don't remember that either.

Mr. Belin. Any other clothing that you noticed?

Mr. Brewer. He had a T-shirt underneath his shirt.

Mr. Belin. Was his shirt buttoned up all the way?

Mr. Brewer. A couple of buttons were unbuttoned at the time.

Mr. Belin. Light complexioned or dark?

Mr. Brewer. Light complexioned.

4 Mr. Belin. All right. After you saw him in the lobby of your store there, what you call a lobby area, which is really kind of an extension of the sidewalk, then you saw him leave?

Mr. Brewer. Yes, he turned and walked up toward——

Mr. Belin. Had the police sirens subsided at the time he turned, or not?

Mr. Brewer. No; you could still hear sirens.

Mr. Belin. Did they sound like they were coming toward you or going away?

Mr. Brewer. They were going away at that time.

Mr. Belin. Going the other way?

Mr. Brewer. Yes.

Mr. Belin. How could you tell?

Mr. Brewer. They were getting further in the distance.

Mr. Belin. Then what did you see this man do?

Mr. Brewer. He turned and walked out of the lobby and went up West Jefferson toward the theatre, and I walked out the front and watched him, and he went into the theatre.

Mr. Belin. What theatre is that?

Mr. Brewer. Texas Theatre.

Mr. Belin. Why did you happen to watch this particular man?

Mr. Brewer. He just looked funny to me. Well, in the first place, I had seen him some place before. I think he had been in my store before. And when you wait on somebody, you recognize them, and he just seemed funny. His hair was sort of messed up and looked like he had been running, and he looked scared, and he looked funny.

Mr. Belin. Did you notice any of his actions when he was standing in your lobby there?

Mr. Brewer. No; he just stood there and stared.

Mr. Belin. He stared?

Mr. Brewer. Yes.

Mr. Belin. Was he looking at the merchandise?

Mr. Brewer. Not anything in particular. He was just standing there staring.

Mr. Belin. Well, would you state then what happened? You said that you saw him walk into the Texas Theatre?

Mr. Brewer. He walked into the Texas Theatre and I walked up to the theatre, to the box office and asked Mrs. Postal if she sold a ticket to a man who was wearing a brown shirt, and she said no, she hadn't. She was listening to the radio herself. And I said that a man walked in there, and I was going to go inside and ask the usher if he had seen him.

So I walked in and Butch Burroughs——

Mr. Belin. Who was Burroughs?

Mr. Brewer. He was behind the counter. He operated the concession and takes tickets. He was behind the concession stand and I asked him if he had seen a man in a brown shirt of that description, matching that description, and he said he had been working behind the counter and hadn't seen anybody.

And I asked him if he would come with me and show me where the exits were and we would check the exits. And he asked me why.

I told him that I thought the guy looked suspicious.

Mr. Belin. Could you tell whether or not he bought a ticket?

Mr. Brewer. No; he just turned and walked right straight in.

Mr. Belin. When he walked right straight in, could you see the box office?

Mr. Brewer. Well, the box office is right in the middle in front of the theatre, and he turned right at the corner and went in. You could see him if he was buying a ticket, because the box office is flush with all the other buildings.

Mr. Belin. If he had purchased a ticket, would you have seen him purchasing the ticket from where you were standing or walking?

Mr. Brewer. I could have seen him, yes; standing in front of the box office.

Mr. Belin. Then did you know when you saw him walk in and when you walked up to Julia Postal that he had not bought a ticket?

Mr. Brewer. I knew that he hadn't.

5 Mr. Belin. Why did you ask Julia Postal whether he had or hadn't?

Mr. Brewer. I don't know.

Mr. Belin. You just asked her?

Mr. Brewer. Just asked her whether he had bought or she had seen him go in.

Mr. Belin. She—did she say whether she had seen him, or don't you remember?

Mr. Brewer. She said she couldn't remember a man of that description going in.

Mr. Belin. All right. You saw this person Butch?

Mr. Brewer. Yes, sir.

Mr. Belin. You say he is the usher, too?

Mr. Brewer. Yes.

Mr. Belin. What did you and Butch do?

Mr. Brewer. We walked down to the front of the theatre to the stage. First we checked the front exit, and it hadn't been opened. We went to the back and it hadn't been opened.

Mr. Belin. How could you tell that it hadn't been opened?

Mr. Brewer. Well, you open it from the inside, and you raise a bar, and a rod sticks into a hole at the bottom and then you open it. When you close it, it doesn't fall back in. You have to raise the rod again to close it from the inside.

Mr. Belin. In other words, you have to close it from the inside?

Mr. Brewer. You can close it from the outside, but it won't lock.

Mr. Belin. It was locked when you got there?

Mr. Brewer. Yes.

Mr. Belin. So you knew that no one had left?

Mr. Brewer. Yes.

Mr. Belin. Then what did you do?

Mr. Brewer. We went back up front and went in the balcony and looked around but we couldn't see anything.

Mr. Belin. Now you first looked on the bottom floor and you did not see him?

Mr. Brewer. Yes.

Mr. Belin. How many patrons were in the theatre at that time?

Mr. Brewer. I couldn't really tell. There weren't many, but it was dark and we couldn't see how many people were in there. There were 15 or 20. I would say, at the most, upstairs and downstairs.

Mr. Belin. Together, 15 or 20?

Mr. Brewer. Yes.

Mr. Belin. Then you went upstairs. Did you see him upstairs?

Mr. Brewer. No; I couldn't see anything upstairs.

Mr. Belin. Did you hear any noises there?

Mr. Brewer. When we first went down to the exit by the stage, we heard a seat pop up, but couldn't see anybody. And we never did see him.

But we went back and upstairs and checked, and we came down and went back to the box office and told Julia that we hadn't seen him.

Mr. Belin. Julia Postal is the cashier?

Mr. Brewer. Yes; and she called the police, and we went—Butch went to the front exit, and I went down by the stage to the back exit and stood there until the police came.

Mr. Belin. Then what happened?

Mr. Brewer. Well, just before they came, they turned the house lights on, and I looked out from the curtains and saw the man.

Mr. Belin. Where was he when you saw him?

Mr. Brewer. He was in the center section about six or seven rows, from the back, toward the back.

Mr. Belin. Toward the back? Are you sure? Mr. Brewer, do you know exactly which row he was in from the back?

Mr. Brewer. No; I don't know which row.

Mr. Belin. Then what did you see?

Mr. Brewer. He stood up and walked to the aisle to his right and then he turned around and walked back and sat down and at this time there was no place I could see.

6 Mr. Belin. Did he sit down in the same seat he had been in to begin with?

Mr. Brewer. I don't remember if it was the same seat or not.

Mr. Belin. Then what happened?

Mr. Brewer. I heard a noise outside, and I opened the door, and the alley, I guess it was filled with police cars and policemen were on the fire exits and stacked around the alley, and they grabbed me, a couple of them and held and searched me and asked me what I was doing there, and I told them that there was a guy in the theatre that I was suspicious of, and he asked me if he was still there.

And I said, yes, I just seen him. And he asked me if I would point him out.

And I and two or three other officers walked out on the stage and I pointed him out, and there were officers coming in from the front of the show, I guess, coming toward that way, and officers going from the back.

Mr. Belin. Then what did you see?

Mr. Brewer. Well, I saw this policeman approach Oswald, and Oswald stood up and I heard some hollering, I don't know exactly what he said, and this man hit Patrolman McDonald.

Mr. Belin. You say this man hit Patrolman McDonald. Did you know it was Patrolman McDonald?

Mr. Brewer. I didn't know his name, but I had seen him quite a few times around Oak Cliff. But I didn't know his name.

Mr. Belin. Then you later found out this was Patrolman McDonald?

Mr. Brewer. Yes.

Mr. Belin. Did you say this man was the same man?

Mr. Brewer. The same man that had stood in my lobby that I followed to the show.

Mr. Belin. Who hit who first?

Mr. Brewer. Oswald hit McDonald first, and he knocked him to the seat.

Mr. Belin. Who knocked who?

Mr. Brewer. He knocked McDonald down. McDonald fell against one of the seats. And then real quick he was back up.

Mr. Belin. When you say he was——

Mr. Brewer. McDonald was back up. He just knocked him down for a second and he was back up. And I jumped off the stage and was walking toward that, and I saw this gun come up and—in Oswald's hand, a gun up in the air.

Mr. Belin. Did you see from where the gun came?

Mr. Brewer. No.

Mr. Belin. You saw the gun up in the air?

Mr. Brewer. And somebody hollered "He's got a gun."

And there were a couple of officers fighting him and taking the gun away from him, and they took the gun from him, and he was fighting, still fighting, and I heard some of the police holler, I don't know who it was, "Kill the President, will you." And I saw fists flying and they were hitting him.

Mr. Belin. Was he fighting back at that time?

Mr. Brewer. Yes; he was fighting back.

Mr. Belin. Then what happened?

Mr. Brewer. Well, just in a short time they put the handcuffs on him and they took him out.

Mr. Belin. Did you see police officers hit him after they got the handcuffs on him?

Mr. Brewer. No; I didn't see them.

Mr. Belin. Did you see any police officer hit Oswald after Oswald stopped fighting?

Mr. Brewer. No.

Mr. Belin. Did you hear Oswald say anything?

Mr. Brewer. As they were taking him out, he stopped and turned around and hollered. "I am not resisting arrest," about twice. "I am not resisting arrest." And they took him on outside.

Mr. Belin. Then what happened?

Mr. Brewer. Well, then, the police officers and plainclothesmen, whoever they were, got everybody that was in the theatre and set them aside, and7 another officer was taking their names and addresses of all the people that were in the theatre.

Mr. Belin. When you first saw this man, when you saw him leave what you referred to as the lobby of your shoestore building, what is it, marble or concrete?

Mr. Brewer. Terrazzo.

Mr. Belin. Terrazzo between the sidewalk and your front door?

Mr. Brewer. Yes.

Mr. Belin. Where were you when you first saw him?

Mr. Brewer. I was behind the counter there by the hose bar.

Mr. Belin. About how far were you from the front door?

Mr. Brewer. Ten feet.

Mr. Belin. Could you see through there to get a good view?

Mr. Brewer. Yes; the doors are solid glass.

Mr. Belin. Then you saw this man leave?

Mr. Brewer. Yes.

Mr. Belin. Then what did you do?

Mr. Brewer. I went out the front door and stood in front of the store and watched him.

Mr. Belin. You stood in front of the door?

Mr. Brewer. Yes.

Mr. Belin. Where was he walking when you first saw him? As you got out in front of your store?

Mr. Brewer. He was, I would say, he was in front of the furniture store. What is the name of that?

Mr. Belin. Would that be Thompson's Furniture Store?

Mr. Brewer. Yes.

Mr. Belin. Did you know—notice how fast this man was walking?

Mr. Brewer. Just a little faster than usual.

Mr. Belin. Faster than usual walk?

Mr. Brewer. Yes.

Mr. Belin. Then about how far were you behind him?

Mr. Brewer. Well, I stood there until he walked into the theatre. I don't really know what I was thinking about.

Mr. Belin. You stood in front of your store as he walked into the theatre?

Mr. Brewer. Yes.

Mr. Belin. About how far is the entrance of the theatre from your store?

Mr. Brewer. I would say 50 or 60 feet—yards.

Mr. Belin. Then after you saw him turn into the theatre, what did you do?

Mr. Brewer. Then I walked toward the theatre.

Mr. Belin. At an average pace, or above average?

Mr. Brewer. I don't know.

Mr. Belin. You don't remember? About how long after you got to the theatre did the police come in, if you can remember?

Mr. Brewer. I don't remember that either.

Mr. Belin. Do you remember about what time it was when the police came in?

Mr. Brewer. No.

Mr. Belin. Is there anything else you can think of that in any way bears on this?

Mr. Brewer. No.

Mr. Belin. Mr. Brewer, I am handing you what has been marked "Commission Exhibit 150," and ask you to state whether or not that looks like the shirt you saw the man wear?

Mr. Brewer. That looks like the shirt, yes.

Mr. Belin. Did you notice whether the man that wore it had any holes in the elbows at all, or not?

Mr. Brewer. I didn't notice.

Mr. Belin. But this Exhibit 150, looks like the shirt?

Mr. Brewer. It looks like the shirt.

Mr. Belin. Was he wearing a jacket? I believe you answered that before.

Mr. Brewer. No, he didn't have on a jacket.

8 Mr. Belin. Did you hear this man as he was in the theatre say anything other than "I am not resisting arrest."?

Mr. Brewer. No.

Mr. Belin. Did he say anything, or could you not understand it?

Mr. Brewer. He said something, but I couldn't understand what it was.

Mr. Belin. When he said, "I am not resisting arrest," was this before or after they had the handcuffs on him?

Mr. Brewer. After.

Mr. Belin. Mr. Brewer, you have the right, if you want, to come back and read this deposition and sign it, or you can just waive the signing of it and let the court reporter send it directly to us in Washington. Do you have any preference on it?

Mr. Brewer. No.

Mr. Belin. Do you want to waive it?

Mr. Brewer. Yes.

Mr. Belin. We want to thank you for all of your cooperation on this. I might ask one other question. We chatted for a few minutes when we first met before we started taking this deposition, did we not?

Mr. Brewer. Yes.

Mr. Belin. Is there anything we talked there about that isn't recorded in this written testimony?

Mr. Brewer. No.

Mr. Belin. Is there anything you said which is different insofar as stating the facts and what you have stated here on the record?

Mr. Brewer. No.

Mr. Belin. When we first met, what is the fact as to whether or not I just asked you to tell your story, or whether or not I tried to tell you what I thought the story was?

Mr. Brewer. You asked me to tell the story first.

Mr. Belin. Is that what you did?

Mr. Brewer. Yes.

Mr. Belin. Anything else you can think of?

Mr. Brewer. No.

Mr. Belin. Please thank Hardy's Shoe Store for us for letting you take the time to be here. We thank you very much.

Mr. Brewer. Okay.


TESTIMONY OF JULIA POSTAL

The testimony of Julia Postal was taken at 3 p.m., on April 2, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. Ball. Will you stand and hold up your hand, please and be sworn?

Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give before this Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mrs. Postal. I do.

Mr. Ball. Will you state your name, please?

Mrs. Postal. Julia Postal.

Mr. Ball. What is your address, please?

Mrs. Postal. 2728 Seevers.

Mr. Ball. Will you tell me something about yourself, where you were born and what your education was, what your occupation has been, just in general.

Mrs. Postal. Was born here in Dallas and I went through all school here to my first year at Adamson, and went to California and finished up out there.

Mr. Ball. Finished high school there?

Mrs. Postal. Went through 4 years of it.

Mr. Ball. In California?

9 Mrs. Postal. In California, and then I lived there for 12 years and came back here. I have been here ever since.

Mr. Ball. What has been your occupation?

Mrs. Postal. Well, basically it has been theatre, cashier, and officework in connection with theatres.

Mr. Ball. You have been to California? Did you work in theatres there?

Mrs. Postal. Yes, sir; I worked at the Paramount Theatre, and Graumans, and R.K.O. Used to work for the Pantages. Worked for the Wilshire in the office.

Mr. Ball. How long have you been back from California, to Dallas?

Mrs. Postal. Oh, me, I have been there 11 years, 14 or 15 years; really, I don't remember.

Mr. Ball. Have you been working? You are now working where?

Mrs. Postal. With the Texas—really, it is United Theatres, Inc., at the Texas Theatre.

Mr. Ball. How long have you been working there?

Mrs. Postal. It was 11 years last November 24.

Mr. Ball. Same theatre?

Mrs. Postal. Same theatre.

Mr. Ball. What were your hours of work last fall?

Mrs. Postal. Last fall? Well, let's see, I worked in the office, and then started cutting down personnel and I worked in the office until they opened the box office at 12:45, and then come down to the box office and worked until 5.

Mr. Ball. When you say worked in the box office, is that take tickets?

Mrs. Postal. Sell tickets.

Mr. Ball. Sell tickets. Is there a ticket taker inside the theatre?

Mrs. Postal. Yes, sir; now, during the slack period like this with school, just an usher who works the concession and tears the tickets, because it is just straight through.

Mr. Ball. On November 22, Friday, November 22, 1963, what time did your box office open?

Mrs. Postal. We open daily at 12:45, sometimes may be 5, 4 minutes later or something, but that is our regular hours.

Mr. Ball. On this day you opened on 12:45, November 22?

Mrs. Postal. Uh-huh.

Mr. Ball. And on that day, did you have the ticket taker working around 12:45, 1 o'clock?

Mrs. Postal. Just the usher, which, as I said, works the concession and ticket.

Mr. Ball. What was his name?

Mrs. Postal. Warren Burroughs. Call him Butch.

Mr. Ball. Butch Burroughs?

Mrs. Postal. Uh-huh.

Mr. Ball. Was he stationed inside the door, the entrance to the theatre?

Mrs. Postal. Yes, sir; he stays, actually, behind the concession counter, but as I said, the concession runs for the entire way as you go in the door and it runs this way so that you can see the door and steps insides, and tears tickets.

Mr. Ball. Now, did you have a radio in your ticket office?

Mrs. Postal. Uh-huh, a transistor.

Mr. Ball. Had you heard that the President had been shot?

Mrs. Postal. Yes; my daughter had called me at the office before we opened up and said it was on the TV, so I then turned the little transistor on right away, and of course it verified the—they were saying again that he had been shot.

Mr. Ball. And did you find out that he had died here? That President Kennedy was dead or——

Mrs. Postal. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. Ball. You didn't hear that?

Mrs. Postal. I was listening to KLIF, and I was down in the little box office, and they kept saying that Parkland hadn't issued an official report, that he had been removed from the operating table, and everyone wanted to surmise, but still hope, and it was after this that they came out and said that he was officially dead.

10 Mr. Ball. But, you didn't hear that when you were in the box office, did you?

Mrs. Postal. Yes, I did. In fact, I was just about—it was just about the time all chaos broke loose.

Mr. Ball. Now, did many people go into the theatre from the time you opened at the box office until about 1:15 or so?

Mrs. Postal. Some.

Mr. Ball. How many? Can you give me an estimate?

Mrs. Postal. I believe 24.

Mr. Ball. Twenty-four?

Mrs. Postal. Fourteen or twenty-four. I believe it was 24. Everything was happening so fast.

Mr. Ball. You had sold about that many tickets?

Mrs. Postal. That's right.

Mr. Ball. What was the price of admission?

Mrs. Postal. We had three. Adults 90 cents, teenager with a card is 50 cents, and a child is 35, and you have a pass ticket.

Mr. Ball. It is cheaper that time of day than other times of day?

Mrs. Postal. No, sir; we don't change prices. Used to, but we don't.

Mr. Ball. Same price?

Mrs. Postal. Uh-huh.

Mr. Ball. Now, did you see anybody go in the theatre—well, did you see any activity on the street?

Mrs. Postal. Now, yes, sir; just about the time we opened, my employer had stayed and took the tickets because we change pictures on Thursday and want to do anything, he—and about this time I heard the sirens—police was racing back and forth.

Mr. Ball. On Jefferson?

Mrs. Postal. On Jefferson Boulevard, and then we made the remark, "Something is about to bust," or "pop," or something to that effect, so, it was just about—some sirens were going west, and my employer got in his car. He was parked in front, to go up to see where they were going. He, perhaps I said, he passed Oswald. At that time I didn't know it was Oswald. Had to bypass him, because as he went through this way, Oswald went through this way and ducked into the theatre there.

Mr. Ball. Let me see. Had you ever seen this man before then at that particular theatre?

Mrs. Postal. Not that I know of, huh-uh.

Mr. Ball. A police car had gone by just before this?

Mrs. Postal. Yes, sir; going west.

Mr. Ball. Its siren on?

Mrs. Postal. Yes; full blast.

Mr. Ball. And after you saw the police car go west with its siren on, why at the time the police car went west with its siren on, did you see the man that ducked? This man that you were——

Mrs. Postal. This man, yes; he ducked into the box office and—I don't know if you are familiar with the theatre.

Mr. Ball. Yes; I have seen the theatre.

Mrs. Postal. You have? Well, he was coming from east going west. In other words, he ducked right in.

Mr. Ball. Ducked in, what do you mean? He had come around the corner——

Mrs. Postal. Yes; and when the sirens went by he had a panicked look on his face, and he ducked in.

Mr. Ball. Now, as the car went by, you say the man ducked in, had you seen him before the car went by, the police went by?

Mrs. Postal. No, sir; I was looking up, as I say, when the cars passed, as you know, they make a tremendous noise, and he ducked in as my boss went that way to get in his car.

Mr. Ball. Who is your boss?

Mrs. Postal. Mr. John A. Callahan.

Mr. Ball. Where did you say he was?

Mrs. Postal. Yes; I say, they bypassed each other, actually, the man ducked in this way and my employer went that-a-way, to get in his car.

11 Mr. Ball. When you say "ducked in," you mean he entered the door from the street?

Mrs. Postal. No, sir; just ducked into the other—into the outer part of it.

Mr. Ball. I see, out in the open space?

Mrs. Postal. Yes, sir; just right around the corner.

Mr. Ball. Just right around the corner?

Mrs. Postal. Yes.

Mr. Ball. And your boss passed him, did he?

Mrs. Postal. Yes; they went—one came one way, and one went the other way just at the same time.

Mr. Ball. What did you see him do after he came around the corner?

Mrs. Postal. Well, I didn't actually—because I stepped out of the box office and went to the front and was facing west. I was right at the box office facing west, because I thought the police were stopping up quite a ways. Well, just as I turned around then Johnny Brewer was standing there and he asked me if the fellow that ducked in bought a ticket, and I said, "No; by golly, he didn't," and turned around expecting to see him.

Mr. Ball. And he had ducked in?

Mrs. Postal. And Mr. Brewer said he had been ducking in at his place of business, and he had gone by me, because I was facing west, and I said, "Go in and see if you can see him," it isn't too much people in there. So, he came and says, well, he didn't see him, and I says, "Well, he has to be there." So I told him to go back and check—we have exit doors, behind—one behind the stage and one straight through, and asked him to check them, check the lounges because I knew he was in there. Well, he just had to be.

Mr. Ball. The last time you had seen him before he ducked in, he was just standing outside of the door, was he?

Mrs. Postal. No, sir; he was still just in—just off of the sidewalk, and he headed for the theatre.

Mr. Ball. Were the doors of the theatre open?

Mrs. Postal. No, sir.

Mr. Ball. It was closed?

Mrs. Postal. It was closed.

Mr. Ball. And you didn't see him actually enter the theatre then?

Mrs. Postal. No, sir.

Mr. Ball. You hadn't seen him go by you?

Mrs. Postal. I knew he didn't go by me, because I was facing west, and Johnny, he had come up from east which meant he didn't go back that way. He had come from east going west.

Mr. Ball. All right, now what happened after that?

Mrs. Postal. Well, I, like—I told him—asked him to check everything.

Mr. Ball. Did you ask Butch Burroughs if he had seen him?

Mrs. Postal. No, sir; I told Johnny this, don't tell him, because he is an excitable person, and just have him, you know, go with you and examine the exits and check real good, so, he came back and said he hadn't seen anything although, he had heard a seat pop up like somebody getting out, but there was nobody around that area, so, I told Johnny about the fact that the President had been assassinated. "I don't know if this is the man they want," I said, "in there, but he is running from them for some reason," and I said "I am going to call the police, and you and Butch go get on each of the exit doors and stay there."

So, well, I called the police, and he wanted to know why I thought it was their man, and I said, "Well, I didn't know," and he said, "Well, it fits the description," and I have not—I said I hadn't heard the description. All I know is, "This man is running from them for some reason." And he wanted to know why, and told him because everytime the sirens go by he would duck and he wanted to know—well, if he fits the description is what he says. I said, "Let me tell you what he looks like and you take it from there." And explained that he had on this brown sports shirt and I couldn't tell you what design it was, and medium height, ruddy looking to me, and he said, "Thank you," and I called the operator and asked him to look through the little hole and see if he could see anything and told him I had called the police, and what was happening, and12 he wanted to know if I wanted him to cut the picture off, and I says, "No, let's wait until they get here." So, seemed like I hung up the intercom phone when here all of a sudden, police cars, policemen, plainclothesmen, I never saw so many people in my life. And they raced in, and the next thing I knew, they were carrying—well, that is when I first heard Officer Tippit had been shot because some officer came in the box office and used the phone, said, "I think we have got our man on both accounts." "What two accounts?" And said, "Well, Officer Tippit's," shocked me, because Officer Tippit used to work part time for us years ago. I didn't know him personally.

Mr. Ball. You mean he guarded the theatre?

Mrs. Postal. On Friday nights and Saturdays, canvass the theatre, you know, and that—then they were bringing Oswald out the door over there and——

Mr. Ball. Well, now, was this before they had gone into the theatre that this officer used the phone?

Mrs. Postal. No, sir.

Mr. Ball. It was after?

Mrs. Postal. There was not one man walked through this theatre. They were running.

Mr. Ball. Did the officers go in the front of the theatre?

Mrs. Postal. Yes. Definitely.

Mr. Ball. Did you go in?

Mrs. Postal. No, sir; I stayed at the box office.

Mr. Ball. You didn't see anything that happened inside?

Mrs. Postal. No, sir.

Mr. Ball. Did you see them bring a man out?

Mrs. Postal. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. How many men had hold of him?

Mrs. Postal. Well, I—like I said, the public was getting there at that time, and the streets, sidewalk and around the streets and everything and they brought him out the double doors here [indicating]. I remember, the officer had his hands behind him with his chin back like this [indicating] because I understand he had been using some profuse (sic) language which—inside. I'd say four or five.

Mr. Ball. Was he handcuffed?

Mrs. Postal. I don't know, sir, because the officers were all around him and from the rear there and his hands were to his back.

Mr. Ball. They were?

Mrs. Postal. Uh-huh.

Mr. Ball. And an officer had hold of him from the side?

Mrs. Postal. Yes, sir; this way.

Mr. Ball. With his arm underneath his chin?

Mrs. Postal. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Did he have any bruises or cuts? Did Oswald have any bruises or cuts on his face?

Mrs. Postal. No.

Mr. Ball. You didn't see any?

Mrs. Postal. No; huh-uh.

Mr. Ball. Was he saying anything?

Mrs. Postal. No, sir; as I said, that was my understanding, that is the reason that they had him like that, because he was screaming.

Mr. Ball. But, you didn't hear him say anything?

Mrs. Postal. No, sir. He couldn't possibly say anything the way they had him.

Mr. Ball. What happened then?

Mrs. Postal. That is when I really started shaking. I had never seen a live mob scene, that——

Mr. Ball. Well——

Mrs. Postal. They said, "What is going on?" And someone said, "Suspect," and they started in this way, just about that time I got out to the box office, back to the box office, and they started screaming profuse language and—"Kill the so-and-so," and trying to get to him, and this and that and the officers were trying to hold on to Oswald—when I say, "Oswald," that man, because as I said, I13 didn't know who he was at that time and they was trying to hold him, because he was putting up a struggle, and then trying to keep the public off, and on the way to the car, parked right out front, one of the officers was—at that time I thought he was putting his hat on the man's face to try to keep the public from grabbing him by the hair, but I later read in the paper it was to cover his face and then he got him in the car, and all bedlam, so far as the public, broke.

Mr. Ball. They drove away with him, did they?

Mrs. Postal. Yes, sir; that one car did; uh-huh.

Mr. Ball. Did you ever go down to the police station?

Mrs. Postal. Police station?

Mr. Ball. Yes; later the city hall or police office?

Mrs. Postal. Yes; I went down to the homicidal bureau.

Mr. Ball. When?

Mrs. Postal. Well, let's see, that was a Friday. I believe it was the Thursday following.

Mr. Ball. You didn't go down there that day?

Mrs. Postal. No, sir.

Mr. Ball. Did you go down there the next day?

Mrs. Postal. No, sir.

Mr. Ball. According to your affidavit, it shows that you signed it on the 4th of December. Would that be about right?

Mrs. Postal. Was that on Thursday?

Mr. Ball. Yes; I think.

Mrs. Postal. I can't remember. I think it was a Thursday.

Mr. Ball. That was after Oswald was dead?

Mrs. Postal. Yes; well, yes; because he was killed on the 24th, yes; because I know I didn't go down until the following week.

Mr. Ball. Now, was it after Oswald, the man brought out on—out of the theatre was taken away in the car that the officer called and said, "I'm sure we have got our man——"?

Mrs. Postal. No, sir; that officer came out of the theatre and grabbed at the phone and made the call about simultaneously as they were bringing Oswald out.

Mr. Ball. And that was when you heard that Officer Tippit had been shot?

Mrs. Postal. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Why didn't Warren Burroughs see him get in, get in there? Do you have any idea?

Mrs. Postal. We talked about that, and the concession stand is along here, and if he came in on the other end, which we summarized that is what Oswald did, because the steps, immediately as you open the door there. It has been done before with kids trying to sneak in, run right on up in the balcony.

Mr. Ball. You asked Warren Burroughs why he didn't see him, did you?

Mrs. Postal. Yes; we kidded him quite a bit anyway, because some people do then get by him.

Mr. Ball. What did he say?

Mrs. Postal. Ah, he said at first that he had seen him, and I says, "Now, Butch, if you saw him come in—" says, "Well, I saw him going out." But he didn't really see him. So, he just summarized that he ran up in the balcony, because if he had come through the foyer, Butch would have seen him.

Mr. Ball. He was arrested, though, down in the orchestra, the second row from the——

Mrs. Postal. Third.

Mr. Ball. Third?

Mrs. Postal. Three rows down, five seats over.

Mr. Ball. I was trying to say the third row. How could he get from the balcony down there?

Mrs. Postal. Oh, that is very easy. You can go up in the balcony and right straight down, those steps come back down, and that would bring you into it. He wouldn't have to go by Butch at all.

Mr. Ball. Oh, I see. And he could get into the balcony without Butch's seeing him?

Mrs. Postal. Yes; if Butch was down in the other end getting something.

14 Mr. Ball. And he could go in?

Mrs. Postal. He could have gotten in.

Mr. Ball. All right. I show you an Exhibit 150, a shirt. Does that look anything like the shirt he had on?

Mrs. Postal. Yes, it was something like this shirt. I couldn't say it is the same except it was brown and it was hanging out.

Mr. Ball. Outside his pants?

Mrs. Postal. Uh-huh.

Mr. Ball. Wasn't tucked into his pants?

Mrs. Postal. Huh-uh.

Mr. Ball. When he went in was it tucked in his pants when he went in?

Mrs. Postal. No, sir; because I remember he came flying around the corner, because his hair was and shirt was kind of waving.

Mr. Ball. And his shirt was out?

Mrs. Postal. Uh-huh.

Mr. Ball. You say——

Mrs. Postal. It was hanging out.

Mr. Ball. Mrs. Postal, this will be written up and you can read it and sign it if you wish, or you can waive signature and we will send it on to the Commission without your signature. Now, how do you feel about it? Do you want to do that?

Mrs. Postal. I don't know. I mean, this is all new to me anyway.

Mr. Ball. Would you just as leave waive your signature?

Mrs. Postal. Well, I see no reason why not.

Mr. Ball. Okay. Fine.

Then you don't have to come down and sign it. We will send it without your signature. Thank you, very much for coming in.


TESTIMONY OF WARREN H. BURROUGHS

The testimony of Warren H. Burroughs was taken at 9:15 a.m., on April 8, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. Ball. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give before the Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. Burroughs. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. State your name for the record, please.

Mr. Burroughs. Warren H. Burroughs.

Mr. Ball. Where do you live, Mr. Burroughs?

Mr. Burroughs. 407 Montreal.

Mr. Ball. Where were you born?

Mr. Burroughs. Dallas.

Mr. Ball. Where did you go to school?

Mr. Burroughs. Well, I'm going to private school 2 days a week. I stopped going to public school in the ninth grade.

Mr. Ball. You quit in the ninth grade?

Mr. Burroughs. I stopped in the ninth grade, but I'm going to private school 2 days a week over in Highland Park.

Mr. Ball. You are now?

Mr. Burroughs. Yes; I am now.

Mr. Ball. How old are you?

Mr. Burroughs. Twenty-two.

Mr. Ball. What have you been doing most of your life—what kind of work have you been doing?

Mr. Burroughs. I worked at the Texas Theatre and I helped my dad out as an apprentice, he is an electrician.

15 Mr. Ball. Were you ever in the Army?

Mr. Burroughs. No, sir—they tried to get me, but I couldn't pass—I passed the physical part, but the mental part—I didn't make enough points on the score, so the board sent me a card back and classifying me different.

Mr. Ball. On November 22, 1963, you were working at the Texas Theatre, were you?

Mr. Burroughs. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. What kind of job did you have?

Mr. Burroughs. During the week I worked behind the concession. On weekends I usher.

Mr. Ball. On weekends you usher?

Mr. Burroughs. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. During the week?

Mr. Burroughs. I am behind the concession.

Mr. Ball. During the afternoon of the week—do you take tickets too?

Mr. Burroughs. Yes—I take tickets every day.

Mr. Ball. You do?

Mr. Burroughs. Yes.

Mr. Ball. And, run the concession?

Mr. Burroughs. Yes.

Mr. Ball. If anybody comes in there without a ticket, what do you do, run them off?

Mr. Burroughs. I make it a point to stop them and ask them to go out and get a ticket. I just failed to see him when he slipped in.

Mr. Ball. We will get to that in a minute—I want to see what you usually do if somebody comes in without a ticket.

Mr. Burroughs. I stop them and have them go out to the box office and get an admission ticket.

Mr. Ball. On this day of November 22, 1963, what time did you go to work?

Mr. Burroughs. I went to work at 12.

Mr. Ball. You went to work that day at 12?

Mr. Burroughs. That day at 12 o'clock—yes.

Mr. Ball. And you later saw a struggle in the theatre between a man and some officers, didn't you?

Mr. Burroughs. Yes.

Mr. Ball. Did you see that man come in the theatre?

Mr. Burroughs. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. Ball. Do you have any idea what you were doing when he came in?

Mr. Burroughs. Well, I was—I had a lot of stock candy to count and put in the candy case for the coming night, and if he had came around in front of the concession out there, I would have seen him, even though I was bent down, I would have seen him, but otherwise—I think he sneaked up the stairs real fast.

Mr. Ball. Up to the balcony?

Mr. Burroughs. Yes, sir—first, I think he was up there.

Mr. Ball. At least there was a stairway there?

Mr. Burroughs. Yes, there was two.

Mr. Ball. Is there a stairway near the entry?

Mr. Burroughs. Of the door—yes. Yes, it goes straight—you come through the door and go straight—you go upstairs to the balcony.

Mr. Ball. Did anybody come in there that day? Up to the time of the struggle between the man and the police—who didn't have a ticket?

Mr. Burroughs. No, sir.

Mr. Ball. Later on the police came in your place?

Mr. Burroughs. Yes.

Mr. Ball. They asked you if you had seen a man come in there without a ticket?

Mr. Burroughs. Yes.

Mr. Ball. What did you tell him?

Mr. Burroughs. I said, "I haven't seen him myself. He might have, but I16 didn't see him when he came in. He must have sneaked in and run on upstairs before I saw him."

Mr. Ball. Later on, did somebody point out a man in the theatre to you?

Mr. Burroughs. No—I got information that a man—the police were cruising up and down Jefferson hunting for Oswald, and he ran to a shoestore and then came out and came on up to the Texas, and the man came in and told me that a man fitting that description came in the show and he wanted me to help him find him, and we went and checked the exit doors, he was up in the balcony, I imagine, and then we went back out and the police caught him downstairs.

Mr. Ball. You went to check the exit doors?

Mr. Burroughs. Yes.

Mr. Ball. With the shoe salesman?

Mr. Burroughs. Yes.

Mr. Ball. And were the police out at the exit doors?

Mr. Burroughs. They came on—somehow they came in—one came in through the back and the rest of them came in through the front.

Mr. Ball. Did you see them come in through the back when you were back there?

Mr. Burroughs. I saw one of them.

Mr. Ball. The exit doors you are talking about were in the back or in the front?

Mr. Burroughs. They are at the back—they have one main one going out to the alley and they have one down here by the stage going out to the parking lot, and the other two are upstairs.

Mr. Ball. Did you see any struggle or fight between this man and any police officer?

Mr. Burroughs. No; not exactly, because I just had one door open and that was the middle door, and I couldn't see them—that was the main thing.

Mr. Ball. Where were you?

Mr. Burroughs. I was back behind the concession.

Mr. Ball. How do you get from the exit door in the rear of the theatre to behind the concession?

Mr. Burroughs. Well, the concession is right here [indicating] and the doors are right here, and the theatre is inside, and exit door No. 1 is straight down this way and another one is straight down this way.

Mr. Ball. Tell me what you did after you went to the exit door with the shoe salesman; what did you do?

Mr. Burroughs. Well, he went down to this door and I stayed at this door.

Mr. Ball. You mean at the rear of the theatre?

Mr. Burroughs. Yes—he went down to the rear of the theatre, and I stayed at this door in case he went out one of the exit doors.

Mr. Ball. You stayed there, did you?

Mr. Burroughs. I stayed there for about 5 minutes and I came back out to the concession.

Mr. Ball. Down the main aisle?

Mr. Burroughs. Yes.

Mr. Ball. Were there police in there at that time?

Mr. Burroughs. They were in there checking to see where he was.

Mr. Ball. Was there any struggle going on when you came back from the exit door to the concession?

Mr. Burroughs. No.

Mr. Ball. There was not?

Mr. Burroughs. No.

Mr. Ball. Did you hear or see any trouble between this man and the police?

Mr. Burroughs. Well, I heard a struggle from outside, but I really couldn't tell.

Mr. Ball. What did you hear?

Mr. Burroughs. Well, I couldn't hear anything on the inside, but when they brought him out, he was hollering and raising, "I demand my rights," and all that.

Mr. Ball. What else did you hear?

17 Mr. Burroughs. That's about all.

Mr. Ball. Tell me what his appearance was as they brought him out?

Mr. Burroughs. Well, he didn't seem—he seemed like he was mad at everybody.

Mr. Ball. He was?

Mr. Burroughs. Yes.

Mr. Ball. Did he shout in a loud voice?

Mr. Burroughs. Yes; like—"I demand my rights" [witness holding up both hands above his head.]

Mr. Ball. Anything else?

Mr. Burroughs. Well, they carried him out to the car and there was a mob of people out there—more people than I have ever seen before and they put him in the car and went off.

Mr. Ball. How many officers were with him? When you saw them take him from the theatre?

Mr. Burroughs. I believe about three or four.

Mr. Ball. Did any of them have ahold of him?

Mr. Burroughs. Yes; they had ahold of him—they were dragging him out—I mean they had ahold of him—two on each side.

Mr. Ball. Was he walking or were they dragging him?

Mr. Burroughs. He was walking, but he was kind of urged on out the door into the car.

Mr. Ball. Was he handcuffed?

Mr. Burroughs. Yes.

Mr. Ball. Were his hands behind him or in front of him?

Mr. Burroughs. They were behind him.

Mr. Ball. Did you ever see a police officer strike him?

Mr. Burroughs. No.

Mr. Ball. Did you see a police officer with his arm around the neck of this man, who arrested him?

Mr. Burroughs. I don't believe so.

Mr. Ball. Did you ever see a police officer strike this man with the butt of a shotgun?

Mr. Burroughs. No, sir.

Mr. Ball. Were any of the officers in the theatre armed with shotguns?

Mr. Burroughs. No, sir; I don't believe so.

Mr. Ball. I think that's all, Mr. Burroughs, and this will be written up and you can go down and sign it if you wish, or you can waive your signature right now. Which do you prefer?

Mr. Burroughs. I want to come down and sign it.

Mr. Ball. All right. You will be notified to come down and you can read it over and sign it. Thank you very much for coming down here.

Mr. Burroughs. Thank you. I hope I helped you some.

Mr. Ball. Yes; I hope you did, too.

Mr. Burroughs. I'll see you later.

Mr. Ball. All right. Goodby.


TESTIMONY OF BOB K. CARROLL

The testimony of Bob K. Carroll was taken at 9 a.m., on April 3, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. Ball. Mr. Carroll, would you stand up please and take the oath.

Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give before this Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. Carroll. I do.

18 Mr. Ball. Will you state your name, please?

Mr. Carroll. Bob K. Carroll.

Mr. Ball. And what is your residence address?

Mr. Carroll. 814 Redbud, Duncanville, Tex.

Mr. Ball. And what is your occupation?

Mr. Carroll. Detective, Dallas Police Department.

Mr. Ball. How long have you been with the Dallas Police Department?

Mr. Carroll. Ten years and three months.

Mr. Ball. Tell me something about yourself? Where were you born?

Mr. Carroll. I was born here in Dallas.

Mr. Ball. Where did you go to school?

Mr. Carroll. Sunset High.

Mr. Ball. And did you go beyond high school?

Mr. Carroll. No, sir.

Mr. Ball. What did you do after you got out of high school?

Mr. Carroll. Actually, I quit high school in 1947 and went to work at Vitalic Battery Co. [spelling] V-i-t-a-l-i-c. I worked there off and on, sometimes I believe during the seasonal layoffs and I would go back when they started rehiring, and I worked there until I went on active duty with the Marine Corps March 1, 1952, and I was released from active duty in May of 1953, and when I returned to Dallas I went to work for James A. Lewis Engineering Co., and I worked for them for approximately 18 months and then I worked 2 months for the Texas Highway Department on a survey crew, and then I joined the Dallas Police Department.

Since I have been in the Dallas Police Department, I have worked the radio and patrol divisions, the accident prevention bureau and the special service bureau. While assigned to the special service bureau, I worked with the narcotics section, the criminal intelligence section and the vice section and the administrative section.

Mr. Ball. On November 22, 1963, were you on duty?

Mr. Carroll. Yes, sir; I was.

Mr. Ball. What were your hours of work that day?

Mr. Carroll. We were instructed to be in the assembly room at 10 a.m. for briefing prior to the arrival of President Kennedy, and at that time I was in the assembly room at 8 a.m.

Mr. Ball. What job was assigned to you that day?

Mr. Carroll. I was assigned to the 700 block of Main Street.

Mr. Ball. Along the curb—did you stand along the sidewalk?

Mr. Carroll. Yes, sir; to be there, and, of course, there were uniform officers also assigned in that block, but I think they had one detective for each block.

Mr. Ball. How far is 700 Main Street from Houston and Main?

Mr. Carroll. That would be roughly about three blocks—three or four blocks, maybe.

Mr. Ball. Did you hear the sound of any shots?

Mr. Carroll. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. Ball. When did you first hear that the President had been shot?

Mr. Carroll. I had walked around to a tavern around the corner. I was walking down the street and I passed this person I know and I stepped in this tavern to speak to him and I heard it—they turned on the TV just as I walked in the door and I heard it on the TV set.

Mr. Ball. What did you do then?

Mr. Carroll. I left and went to the office, and when I got to the office I called the dispatcher and they told me to go to the scene and I left the office and went to the garage, which is two blocks from city hall and got a car and reported to the School Book Depository.

Mr. Ball. About what time did you get to the School Book Depository?

Mr. Carroll. Let's see—approximately—let's see, the shooting occurred—it was 12:30, I believe, it was approximately 1 o'clock—maybe a little before, but right around 1 o'clock, and after I got to the Depository, they started organizing search details and I was assigned to search the basement. Well, I went19 into the basement and we determined that we needed some light in the basement, so I came back upstairs to get some lights, and when I got upstairs I heard that an officer had been shot in Oak Cliff, and no one had any information on it and the people I talked to had no information, so I got on the phone, and I called the dispatcher's office. The dispatcher stated it was Officer Tippit who was shot and he was dead, and so when I come back out of the office where I had used the phone, I requested permission to go to Oak Cliff and permission was granted and I took K. E. Lyons, and he and I left for Oak Cliff.

Mr. Ball. Is K. E. Lyons a detective?

Mr. Carroll. He is a patrolman assigned to the special service bureau. He doesn't work in uniform.

Mr. Ball. He works in plain clothes?

Mr. Carroll. He works in plain clothes, but his rank is patrolman, but we were in the 300 block of East Jefferson when the call came out on the radio that a suspect had been seen going into the Texas Theatre. We went immediately to the Texas Theatre, which is about five blocks away—I think it is in the 200 block of West Jefferson, and ourselves and the radio patrol unit were the first units to arrive at the theatre, and we pulled to the curb and parked directly in front of the entrance to the theatre, and the radio patrol car pulled into the head-in parking behind us. When Lyons and I went in, a lady that was in the theatre—I don't know who she was—she said he was upstairs, and that was all the conversation I heard from her.

Mr. Ball. Do you know who the lady was?

Mr. Carroll. No, sir; I have no idea.

Mr. Ball. Was it the girl who sells tickets?

Mr. Carroll. I don't know, sir, whether it was or not.

Mr. Ball. Have you ever met Julia Postal?

Mr. Carroll. No, sir; I never have.

Mr. Ball. And where was the lady when you talked to her?

Mr. Carroll. I didn't actually talk to her, sir, but when we went through the door, she just more or less—she just made a statement that he was upstairs, and as far as having any direct conversation with her, we did not. She said upstairs and we immediately went up to the balcony. All of the house lights were turned on.

Mr. Ball. You and Lyons went in the front door then?

Mr. Carroll. Yes, sir; and we went into the balcony and we had—or rather I had satisfied myself with the fact that he wasn't in the balcony.

Mr. Ball. Was there anyone in the balcony?

Mr. Carroll. Well, there were people sitting around there.

Mr. Ball. How did you satisfy yourself that he was in the balcony?

Mr. Carroll. Well, we went in and had more or less a vague idea—well, the people that I saw up in the balcony were either real young or older people and so we started back down——

Mr. Ball. Had you had a description of the man you were looking for?

Mr. Carroll. They gave me a vague one on the telephone when I called and checked about the officer.

Mr. Ball. Who are "they"?

Mr. Carroll. Whoever was on duty at the dispatcher's office—I don't know who it was at that time.

Mr. Ball. What was the description that he gave you?

Mr. Carroll. He just gave a general height description and age—just generally.

Mr. Ball. Tell me what he said.

Mr. Carroll. I'm trying to recall now exactly—he gave the height and I can't recall now exactly how he said it—it's been so long ago, and it was all—I know he gave roughly, just a rough description. It wasn't a detailed description at all, and I'm trying to remember now exactly how he worded it.

Mr. Ball. Can you give me the approximate age—around?

Mr. Carroll. I believe he said he was between 20 or 25 or something, like that, I'm not quite sure, because everything moved real fast and everything like that.

20 Mr. Ball. And you don't have anything from which you can refresh your memory, I suppose?

Mr. Carroll. No, sir; not as to that.

Mr. Ball. You didn't make a note of it?

Mr. Carroll. It was just strictly a telephone conversation—no, sir.

Mr. Ball. At any rate, when you looked at the balcony, did you see anyone who fitted this vague description that had been given you over the telephone by the dispatcher?

Mr. Carroll. Not that I thought fit it.

Mr. Ball. What did you do then?

Mr. Carroll. Well, I started down the stairs and was going back down to the lower floor when I heard someone holler something—I believe it was "Here he is," or something like that. I mean, it was a loud holler, you could tell it wasn't just someone talking, and I started running, and Lyons fell—he sprained his ankle—and I started running and I came up to the right of Oswald. I came up to the right and Sergeant Hill to the left, and then Ray Hawkins was in the aisle behind him—he come up in the aisle behind from the left.

Mr. Ball. You came from the left aisle, did you, down the row of seats?

Mr. Carroll. No, sir; facing the screen, I came from the right aisle and then come up on Oswald's right.

Mr. Ball. Who came from Oswald's left, facing the screen?

Mr. Carroll. Jerry Hill—Sgt. Jerry Hill.

Mr. Ball. And then, who came from behind?

Mr. Carroll. Ray Hawkins.

Mr. Ball. Where were you when you heard the sound "I've got him"?

Mr. Carroll. Just coming off of the stairs from the balcony.

Mr. Ball. And you ran to the orchestra entrance—did you—to the aisle?

Mr. Carroll. To the aisle from the lobby—you come downstairs into the lower lobby and the aisles lead off the lower lobby, and I come through the lobby and he was sitting rather close, I don't know exactly which row of seats it was, but it was back close to the back of the theatre.

Mr. Ball. And how many seats in from the right aisle, as you faced the screen?

Mr. Carroll. It was approximately—close to the center of the second bunch of seats.

Mr. Ball. What did you see when you came into the entrance to the aisle?

Mr. Carroll. I saw standing up at the time—Oswald was standing up there at that time. Several of us were converging at the same time upon him.

Mr. Ball. Where was McDonald?

Mr. Carroll. He was on Oswald's, let me see, the first time I think I saw Nick was, I believe he was on Oswald's right side.

Mr. Ball. Were they struggling?

Mr. Carroll. Everyone was struggling with him—yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. I mean, were Oswald and McDonald struggling together?

Mr. Carroll. Yes, sir; and then when I got up close enough, I saw a pistol pointing at me so I reached and grabbed the pistol and jerked the pistol away and stuck it in my belt, and then I grabbed Oswald.

Mr. Ball. Who had hold of that pistol at that time?

Mr. Carroll. I don't know, sir. I just saw the pistol pointing at me and I grabbed it and jerked it away from whoever had it and that's all, and by that time then the handcuffs were put on Oswald.

Mr. Ball. Who put them on him?

Mr. Carroll. I'm not sure who actually put the handcuffs on—I think it was Ray Hawkins.

Mr. Ball. Put them on from behind?

Mr. Carroll. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Did——

Mr. Carroll. They were behind him.

Mr. Ball. Did you see anybody strike Oswald with his fist?

Mr. Carroll. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. Ball. We had one witness testify yesterday that he saw a man with a shotgun strike Oswald in the back with the butt of the gun; did you see that?

21 Mr. Carroll. No, sir; I didn't see that.

Mr. Ball. Did you see anybody strike him?

Mr. Carroll. I didn't see anybody strike him—it's possible that someone did, but I didn't see it because I was busy just trying to get him.

Mr. Ball. Did you grab some part of Oswald?

Mr. Carroll. Yes, sir; I grabbed him.

Mr. Ball. Where?

Mr. Carroll. It was below his shoulders, I think I grabbed him by his arm, trying to get one arm behind him or something.

I mean, it all happened so fast—as far as me sitting down and detailing it—I believe it was his right arm.

Mr. Ball. Was Oswald saying anything during this struggle?

Mr. Carroll. Not that you could understand, you know; he was making sounds like normally they will do when you are engaged in some kind of a vigorous scuffle or something like that.

Mr. Ball. What happened then after that?

Mr. Carroll. Well, after we got the handcuffs on him—it was McDonald and Jerry Hill, Ray Hawkins and myself, and I believe there was—I think it was Hutson—we started out of the theatre and we took him out through the main lobby to our car, which was parked right in front where we had left it—where Lyons and I pulled up, and we put him in our car in the back seat and I was driving and Jerry Hill was riding next to me and somewhere after this deal, someway or other—I don't know exactly when it was—Paul Bentley had joined the crowd, and he got into the car in the right-front seat and then Oswald and Hutson, I believe, were in the back seat, and we left there and drove to the police station.

Mr. Ball. After Oswald had been handcuffed, did he say anything?

Mr. Carroll. Yes, sir; as we were bringing him out of the theatre, he hollered that he was going to protest this police brutality. I believe those were his words—the latter part—"Protest the police brutality" were his exact words. The rest of it was what he had done and that he hadn't done nothing and stuff like that.

Mr. Ball. Did he say he hadn't done anything?

Mr. Carroll. The best I remember that was it—after we had him in the car. We were coming down to the station and he said that he hadn't done anything and he said, "I did have a pistol and I know that that's wrong, but I haven't done anything." That's the best I recall of what he said.

Mr. Ball. Did you see any marks on Oswald's face?

Mr. Carroll. Yes—there was one, I believe it was on the left—right eye—I can't recall which one it was—I know he had a mark up here, somewhere up here, I believe it was over his left eye—I'm not real sure.

Mr. Ball. Where was Oswald the first time you saw the mark over his eye?

Mr. Carroll. The first time I remember was after we got him in the car. Of course, I wasn't paying too much attention to the marks or anything right there, we was trying to get him subdued.

Mr. Ball. As he came out of the theatre, was he shouting in a loud voice or speaking softly?

Mr. Carroll. Well, when we came out the door, it was rather difficult because there was quite a crowd there outside the theatre and it was pretty noisy and several people were hollering, you know—"Kill him," or "Let us have him, and we'll kill him." It was rather noisy, and after we come out of the theatre—I couldn't hear, you know, if he said anything I couldn't actually hear it.

Mr. Ball. Did you shut Oswald up any way—did you do anything to keep his mouth shut?

Mr. Carroll. No, sir.

Mr. Ball. A witness testified yesterday—he said that as Oswald came out of the theatre, that there were two men on each side of him and one man behind him that had his arm underneath his chin so as to tilt his head back and close his mouth; do you remember anything like that?

Mr. Carroll. I don't remember anything like that. I was in front—when we came out of the theatre, I was directly in front of Oswald, and I say "directly"—just almost right in front of him and there were two people, I know,22 one each side of him had him by his arms, but I did not see anyone holding his mouth or trying to keep his mouth shut.

Mr. Ball. On the way down to the police station, did anyone in the car ask Oswald if he had shot the President?

Mr. Carroll. I don't think—I don't think they asked him if he shot the President. I don't recall asking him if he shot the President. I think most of the conversation was about Tippit at that time.

Mr. Ball. What do you remember as to that conversation about Tippit at the time?

Mr. Carroll. Like—he said he hadn't done anything except, well, he said, "I had a pistol, and that's all I've done—just carry a pistol."

Mr. Ball. Did any one officer state to Oswald that he had killed Tippit?

Mr. Carroll. I don't recall him just coming out openly and saying, "You killed him," or anything like that. Of course, questions were being asked. I don't remember now who was asking them then, but I was driving the car and I was trying to get him from out there down here as fast as we could.

Mr. Ball. After you took the pistol, what did you do with it?

Mr. Carroll. The pistol?

Mr. Ball. Yes.

Mr. Carroll. After I took the pistol, I stuck it in my belt immediately. Then, after we got into the car and pulled out from the theater over there, I gave it to Jerry Hill, Sgt. Jerry Hill.

Mr. Ball. And he was sitting in the front seat?

Mr. Carroll. In the front seat right beside me and in the middle, I think Paul Bentley was sitting on the right side and Jerry was sitting there.

Mr. Ball. And you went down to the police station?

Mr. Carroll. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. What did you do when you got there?

Mr. Carroll. When we got down in the basement and brought Oswald up, I was in front with everyone else surrounding him and we walked directly from the car to the elevator, got on the elevator and went up to the third floor to the homicide and robbery office and took him right into the homicide and robbery office and took him into one of our interrogation rooms, where we released him to the homicide and robbery office.

Mr. Ball. Whom did you release him to?

Mr. Carroll. I don't recall which one of the officers it was—there were several standing around there, but they would just take him and hand him to one particular officer. We just put him in the room and they more or less come in and we would back off.

Mr. Ball. Where did you go?

Mr. Carroll. I went into the police personnel office.

Mr. Ball. Who went in there with you?

Mr. Carroll. There was Jerry Hill, Ray Hawkins, McDonald, Hutson, Bentley, Lyons, and myself. Oh, by the way, Lyons was in the car with us also when we came from the theatre to the police department. I don't remember whether he was sitting in the front or back seat, though, but he did come down with us.

Lyons had sprained his ankle and Paul Bentley also had sprained his ankle, and shortly after we went into the police personnel office Lyons and Bentley left and went to Parkland to have their legs checked and taken care of.

Mr. Ball. Had you looked at the pistol to see if it was loaded before you got to the personnel office?

Mr. Carroll. Yes, sir; when I gave it to Jerry Hill, he unloaded it.

Mr. Ball. He unloaded it there in the car?

Mr. Carroll. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. And were you able to see that?

Mr. Carroll. Wait just a minute—I know he checked the cylinder and I don't recall whether he actually unloaded it at the time or whether he waited to unload it downtown, but I believe he unloaded it there at the car.

Mr. Ball. Anyway, you know it was unloaded in your presence?

Mr. Carroll. Yes; and I saw the bullets.

Mr. Ball. It was unloaded in your presence?

23 Mr. Carroll. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. And how many bullets were there in the cylinder?

Mr. Carroll. Just—the cylinder was full—six.

Mr. Ball. Six bullets?

Mr. Carroll. Yes, sir. Yes; I believe it was full.

Mr. Ball. Was McDonald there at that time?

Mr. Carroll. I don't recall whether he was right there at that moment or not.

Mr. Ball. Did you examine these bullets?

Mr. Carroll. I looked at them, yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Did you see anything unusual about any one of them?

Mr. Carroll. Not—just at a glance. No, sir; they just looked like bullets.

Mr. Ball. Did you examine them more carefully at a later time?

Mr. Carroll. Someone made mention that one of the caps, you know, had a small indent on it, and I looked at it and I could see what looked to me like a hammer might have fallen on it.

Mr. Ball. On the firing pin?

Mr. Carroll. Yes—the firing pin looked like where the firing pin might have fallen on the cap.

Mr. Ball. It looked like the firing pin had fallen on the cap?

Mr. Carroll. That's right.

Mr. Ball. And did you see that with your naked eye or did you need a glass?

Mr. Carroll. Well, when I looked at it, it looked to me like it was just a real light indent.

Mr. Ball. That was without a glass?

Mr. Carroll. Yes.

Mr. Ball. Did you look at it as you were there in the personnel department?

Mr. Carroll. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Was McDonald there that day?

Mr. Carroll. I'm sure he was—I don't actually recall him sitting there. He was there most of the time.

Mr. Ball. Did you see McDonald make a mark on the gun?

Mr. Carroll. Yes; I saw him make a mark.

Mr. Ball. When was this done?

Mr. Carroll. It was up in the personnel police office.

Mr. Ball. At this meeting that you were just describing?

Mr. Carroll. Yes; when we were all in there together.

Mr. Ball. And tell me briefly who was present when you saw McDonald make the mark on the gun?

Mr. Carroll. Well, let's see—there was myself, Mack, I think Ray Hawkins was there, and I believe Hutson was there, and I believe Bentley and Lyons had already gone out to have their feet checked, and I don't recall whether Captain Westbrook was in there at the time or not. There were so many people—I would have to kind of explain that—I know it sounds vague, but there were so many people in and out of there and there were about no less than anywhere from half a dozen to a dozen newspaper reporters in and out and they were bringing in mikes and it was just a big mess of confusion. You couldn't just sit down and detail this thing and say this man was at this particular spot at this time. It was so jumbled up there.

Mr. Ball. Whom did you give the gun to finally?

Mr. Carroll. After I gave it to—Jerry Hill—that was the last time I had possession of it—possession of the gun.

Mr. Ball. And did you know who took possession of the bullets?

Mr. Carroll. I don't recall, sir. I don't recall even seeing the gun or the bullets turned over to anyone by Hill.

Mr. Ball. But you know in the personnel department after you had delivered Oswald to the homicide squadron, you saw the gun and six bullets?

Mr. Carroll. Yes sir.

Mr. Ball. With this group of officers?

Mr. Carroll. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. And you examined them?

Mr. Carroll. Yes.

24 Mr. Ball. I think that's all.

Mr. Carroll, this will be written up by the shorthand reporter and you have the privilege of looking it over and making any corrections and signing it, if you wish, or you can waive signature and we will send it on to the Commission.

Mr. Carroll. Yes, sir; all right, sir.

Mr. Ball. Do you want to waive signature?

Mr. Carroll. No, sir; I will sign it.

Mr. Ball. All right, then, if you want to sign it, we'll get in touch with you and tell you what time it will be ready and you can come down and look it over.

Mr. Carroll. All right.

Mr. Ball. All right, fine. Thank you very much for coming in.

Mr. Carroll. All right, thank you.


TESTIMONY OF BOB K. CARROLL RESUMED

The testimony of Bob K. Carroll was taken at 10 30 a.m., on April 9, 1984, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. Belin. Will you rise and be sworn, please. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. Carroll. I do, sir.

Mr. Belin. Your name is?

Mr. Carroll. Bob K. Carroll.

Mr. Belin. You previously had your deposition taken here in Dallas by the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy, have you not?

Mr. Carroll. Yes, sir.

Mr. Belin. Did Mr. Ball take that?

Mr. Carroll. It was Mr. Ball; yes, sir.

Mr. Belin. About what day was that?

Mr. Carroll. It was on a Friday, last, I believe. I don't know what day that would be.

Mr. Belin. Well, today is the following Thursday. At that time we didn't have some of the exhibits here, Officer Carroll, and since then they have come in. I now want to hand you one of the exhibits which has been marked as Commission Exhibit 143 and ask you to state what that is?

Mr. Carroll. Yes, sir. It is a .38 caliber revolver with a blue steel 2" barrel with wooden handle.

Mr. Belin. Have you ever seen this before?

Mr. Carroll. Yes; I have.

Mr. Belin. Where did you first see it?

Mr. Carroll. I first saw it in the Texas Theatre on November 22, 1963.

Mr. Belin. Would you just tell us about this weapon, when you first saw it?

Mr. Carroll. The first time I saw the weapon, it was pointed in my direction, and I reached and grabbed it and stuck it into my belt.

Mr. Belin. What did you happen to be doing at the time?

Mr. Carroll. At the time, I was assisting in the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. Belin. Do you know whose hand was on the gun when you saw it pointed in your direction?

Mr. Carroll. No; I do not.

Mr. Belin. You just jumped and grabbed it?

Mr. Carroll. I jumped and grabbed the gun; yes, sir.

Mr. Belin. Then what did you do with it?

Mr. Carroll. Stuck it in my belt.

Mr. Belin. And then?

25 Mr. Carroll. After leaving the theatre and getting into the car, I released the pistol to Sgt. Jerry Hill.

Mr. Belin. Sgt. G. L. Hill?

Mr. Carroll. Yes, sir.

Mr. Belin. Who drove the car down to the station?

Mr. Carroll. I drove the car.

Mr. Belin. Did you give it to him before you started up the car, or after you started up the car, if you remember?

Mr. Carroll. After.

Mr. Belin. How far had you driven when you gave it to him?

Mr. Carroll. I don't recall exactly how far I had driven.

Mr. Belin. Did you put any identification mark at all on this weapon?

Mr. Carroll. Yes, sir; I did. The initials B. C., right above the screw on the inside of the butt of the pistol.

Mr. Belin. That is about an inch or so from the bottom of the pistol?

Mr. Carroll. Approximately an inch from the bottom of the butt of the pistol.

Mr. Belin. As you hold the pistol pointing, that metal strip is pointing up also, is that correct?

Mr. Carroll. That's correct.

Mr. Belin. Where did you put the initials?

Mr. Carroll. Where was I, or where did I put the initials on the pistol?

Mr. Belin. Where were you?

Mr. Carroll. I was in the personnel office of the city of Dallas police department.

Mr. Belin. With Sergeant Hill?

Mr. Carroll. Yes, and others who were present.

Mr. Belin. Did you see Sergeant Hill take it out of his pocket or wherever he had it, or not?

Mr. Carroll. Yes, sir.

Mr. Belin. What day did you put your initials on it?

Mr. Carroll. November 22, 1963.

Mr. Belin. During the drive down from the Texas Theatre, to the police station, do you remember any conversation with Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. Carroll. Some. He stated that he had not done anything that—he said, "Well, I was carrying a pistol, but that is all."

Mr. Belin. Was he ever asked his name?

Mr. Carroll. Yes, sir; he was asked his name.

Mr. Belin. Did he give his name?

Mr. Carroll. He gave, the best I recall, I wasn't able to look closely, but the best I recall, he gave two names, I think. I don't recall what the other one was.

Mr. Belin. Did he give two names? Or did someone in the car read from the identification?

Mr. Carroll. Someone in the car may have read from the identification. I know two names, the best I recall, were mentioned.

Mr. Belin. Were any addresses mentioned?

Mr. Carroll. Not that I recall; no, sir.

Mr. Belin. Did you talk at any time to Oswald in the car?

Mr. Carroll. No, sir; I had no conversation with him personally.

Mr. Belin. You were driving the car?

Mr. Carroll. Yes. If I looked at him, I would have to turn around.

Mr. Belin. Did you talk to him after you got downtown to the station?

Mr. Carroll. No, sir.

Mr. Belin. Did you hear him say anything after he got downtown to the station?

Mr. Carroll. No; I didn't hear him say anything.

Mr. Belin. Did you ever hear anyone say anything about his having an address on North Beckley or on Beckley Street?

Mr. Carroll. I heard later, but I couldn't say who it was that said it.

Mr. Belin. When you say later, you mean later than what?

Mr. Carroll. Later that day.

26 Mr. Belin. Was this after you relinquished custody of Oswald?

Mr. Carroll. Yes.

Mr. Belin. Up to that time had you heard it?

Mr. Carroll. I don't recall hearing it prior to the time I was in the city hall.

Mr. Belin. Anything else you can think of, whether we have discussed this or not, that in any way might be relevant?

Mr. Carroll. No, sir; because when we brought him out of the car, we took him straight up to the homicide and robbery office and there left him in custody of a homicide and robbery officer.

Mr. Belin. When this gun, Commission Exhibit 143, was taken by you and then subsequently given to Hill, did you at any time notice whether it was or was not loaded?

Mr. Carroll. I observed Sergeant Hill unload the gun.

Mr. Belin. How many bullets were in it?

Mr. Carroll. It was full. I believe there was six bullets, the best I recall.

Mr. Belin. All right, sir; we thank you again for making the second trip down, and we are sorry we didn't have the exhibit here when you first testified.

You have an opportunity, if you like, to read your deposition and sign it before it goes to Washington, or you can waive.

Mr. Carroll. I will sign it.

Mr. Belin. All right, you will be contacted.

Mr. Carroll. All right, fine.


TESTIMONY OF THOMAS ALEXANDER HUTSON

The testimony of Thomas Alexander Hutson was taken at 9 a.m., on April 3, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. Belin. Would you stand and raise your right hand, please. Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. Hutson. I do.

Mr. Belin. Will you please state your name?

Mr. Hutson. Thomas A. Hutson.

Mr. Belin. And your occupation?

Mr. Hutson. Police officer for the city of Dallas.

Mr. Belin. How old are you, Mr. Hutson?

Mr. Hutson. Thirty-five years.

Mr. Belin. How long have you been a police officer?

Mr. Hutson. Nine years.

Mr. Belin. Go to school here in Dallas?

Mr. Hutson. Yes, sir.

Mr. Belin. High school?

Mr. Hutson. Yes, sir.

Mr. Belin. Graduate of high school or not?

Mr. Hutson. Yes, sir.

Mr. Belin. What school?

Mr. Hutson. Forest Avenue High School.

Mr. Belin. Where did you go when you got out of high school?

Mr. Hutson. Went to work for Texas & Pacific Railway in the general office at Elm and Griffin Street as a mail clerk.

Mr. Belin. How long was that?

Mr. Hutson. That was in 1947, in July—that is in January of 1947, and I worked there continuously until July of 1948, when I enlisted in the U.S. Army.

Mr. Belin. How long did you serve in the Army?

Mr. Hutson. Four years.

Mr. Belin. What did you do there?

Mr. Hutson. I went to Fort Ord, Calif., for basic training, and from there27 I went to Germany and joined the 1st Infantry Division, and I joined them in October of 1948.

I landed in Germany and I stayed with them in Germany until May of 1951, when I returned to the United States and was stationed at Fort Sam Houston.

Mr. Belin. What did you do, basically, in Germany?

Mr. Hutson. I started out in the Infantry, and when I left Germany I was in a more or less administrative part of my Infantry company, doing mail and administrative work in the sergeant's office. Plus, of course, you are primarily an Infantry soldier anyway.

Mr. Belin. You got back to the States?

Mr. Hutson. Right. In May of 1951, and I went to Fort Sam Houston, Tex., where I was promoted to Infantry sergeant, platoon sergeant, and there I gave instructions in Infantry tactics.

Mr. Belin. And eventually you were discharged?

Mr. Hutson. I went to Camp Pickett, Va., and we were there—this was during the Korean war when I started to train men in Camp Pickett, Va., and I got an extended year from a 3-year enlistment, and I was discharged in July of 1952.

Mr. Belin. Honorable discharge?

Mr. Hutson. Yes, sir.

Mr. Belin. Then what did you do?

Mr. Hutson. I returned to Dallas and went back to work for Texas & Pacific Railway as an interchange clerk in the accounting office.

Mr. Belin. How long did you stay with them?

Mr. Hutson. I stayed with Texas & Pacific for approximately a year, and at this time I resigned and a lifelong friend and I went into the service station business at Harwood and Grand here in Dallas.

Mr. Belin. How long did you stay in the service station business?

Mr. Hutson. We stayed in the service station business 18 months. I sold my interest to him around February the 5th, and I went to work for the Dallas Police Department.

Mr. Belin. What year?

Mr. Hutson. 1955.

Mr. Belin. What were your duties in the Dallas Police Department in the fall of 1963?

Mr. Hutson. I was a 3-wheel motorcycle officer.

Mr. Belin. Would that have included November 22, 1963?

Mr. Hutson. Yes, sir; it would.

Mr. Belin. Did you have anything to do in connection with the Presidential motorcade on November 22?

Mr. Hutson. Yes; I did.

Mr. Belin. What did you do?

Mr. Hutson. I was in charge of "no parking" on all of North Harwood Street and Main Street to Field on both sides of the street.

Mr. Belin. After the motorcade passed down Main, what did you do?

Mr. Hutson. I was at Main and Ervay Avenue, and after the motorcade passed, I began to pick up my "No-parking" signs.

Mr. Belin. Were you at Main and Ervay when the motorcade passed?

Mr. Hutson. Right.

Mr. Belin. To direct traffic?

Mr. Hutson. I was trying—we were trying to hold the noon crowds back that was surging in the street.

Mr. Belin. After the motorcade passed, then you started picking up the signs?

Mr. Hutson. Yes.

Mr. Belin. What did you do after that?

Mr. Hutson. As I was picking up the signs, I heard a Signal 19, involving the President of the United States at Elm and Houston.

Mr. Belin. Now had you heard anything ahead of that time?

Mr. Hutson. I saw this squad car go by me with the siren on.

Mr. Belin. All right.

Mr. Hutson. And as I got back to my motorcycle from picking up the signs, I heard the Signal 19, involving the President of the United States at Elm and Houston. I immediately made an emergency run to this location.

28 Mr. Belin. What did you do when you got there?

Mr. Hutson. I pulled up in front of the Texas School Book Depository and got off my motorcycle and took a position up on the sidewalk in front of the main entrance.

Mr. Belin. Now there are a few steps between the sidewalk and the main entrance. Were you at the bottom of the steps?

Mr. Hutson. Yes; I was at the bottom of the steps.

Mr. Belin. What did you do at the bottom of the steps?

Mr. Hutson. I stopped people and screened them from trying to enter, and prevented anyone from leaving if he got through the other two officers.

Mr. Belin. You were there with two more officers?

Mr. Hutson. Yes, sir.

Mr. Belin. Where were they?

Mr. Hutson. They were at the top of the stairs at the door.

Mr. Belin. Do you know the names of these officers?

Mr. Hutson. I am not positive, but the best of my knowledge, it was J. B. Garrick and H. R. Freeman.

Mr. Belin. Were those officers there when you got there?

Mr. Hutson. Yes, sir.

Mr. Belin. Were they motorcycle officers or not?

Mr. Hutson. Solo motorcycle officers.

Mr. Belin. How long did you stay there?

Mr. Hutson. I don't know the exact amount of time that I stayed there.

Mr. Belin. What is your best judgment?

Mr. Hutson. Thirty minutes.

Mr. Belin. Why did you leave?

Mr. Hutson. I was relieved by my sergeant.

Mr. Belin. Did you let people go in that said they were employees within the building?

Mr. Hutson. No, sir. One lady came up that was an employee. I refused to let anyone enter except police officers.

Mr. Belin. Did you see anyone leave the building?

Mr. Hutson. No, sir.

Mr. Belin. Was your back to the building?

Mr. Hutson. Yes, sir.

Mr. Belin. Now there were lots of people milling around at that time, I assume?

Mr. Hutson. Not at the entrance, there wasn't when I first got there. There wasn't a big crowd around that building, but all the sirens coming in, that is what brought the big crowd.

Mr. Belin. Could you hear any witnesses say they had seen a rifle or anything from the building?

Mr. Hutson. No; I didn't.

Mr. Belin. Well, you left. What did you do when you were relieved from duty?

Mr. Hutson. As I was being released, I heard the radio dispatcher come on the radio and give a Signal 19, and that a shooting involving a police officer in the 500 block of East Jefferson, and he came back on shortly and said to check both 500 East Jefferson and East Tenth, that they weren't sure on the exact location.

Mr. Belin. Was this at about the time you were being released?

Mr. Hutson. Yes, sir.

Mr. Belin. Now when you first got the signal to go to Elm and Houston, did he say Elm and Houston?

Mr. Hutson. Elm and Houston, that is the location I heard.

Mr. Belin. How long do you feel that it took you to get from where you were on Main at that time?

Mr. Hutson. I was in the 1800 block of Main Street, eastbound, and I made a turn and used my siren and red lights, and the maximum amount of time it could have taken me would be 3 minutes.

Mr. Belin. So you got there in 3 minutes, and within 3 minutes after you heard the signal you were stopping people from going in?

29 Mr. Hutson. Yes.

Mr. Belin. You are nodding your head, yes?

Mr. Hutson. Yes.

Mr. Belin. Do you know how many minutes after the shooting you heard the first notice over the police radio?

Mr. Hutson. No, I don't.

Mr. Belin. At times you were working away from your police radio while you were picking up the signs, is that correct?

Mr. Hutson. Yes; and you can't hear the radio from a distance.

Mr. Belin. When you heard this news about this shooting in Oak Cliff—by the way, where was your regular station ordinarily?

Mr. Hutson. I worked west of Vernon on Jefferson.

Mr. Belin. Is that Oak Cliff?

Mr. Hutson. Yes; that is West Jefferson Boulevard.

Mr. Belin. What did you do after you heard about the shooting?

Mr. Hutson. I got on my motorcycle and I proceeded down through the triple underpass and up onto R. L. Thornton Freeway to Oak Cliff.

Mr. Belin. Where did you go?

Mr. Hutson. I exited off Jefferson and went to the 400 block of East Jefferson Boulevard and began a search of the two-story house behind 10th Street where the officer had been shot.

Mr. Belin. All right.

Mr. Hutson. And after we searched this area, I got in the squad car with Officer Ray Hawkins, who was driving, and Officer Baggett was riding in the back seat.

Mr. Belin. Why did you get inside the squad car?

Mr. Hutson. The clutch on my motorcycle was burned out and I couldn't get any speed, and I just barely made it over there, and I didn't know whether I would be able to start and go or not.

Mr. Belin. Then what did you do?

Mr. Hutson. We proceeded west on 10th Street to Beckley, and we pulled into the Mobil gas station at Beckley and 10th Street.

Mr. Belin. That is a Mobil gas station?

Mr. Hutson. Yes.

Mr. Belin. All right.

Mr. Hutson. And Officer Ray Hawkins and Officer Baggett went inside of the Mobil gas station. And I am not positive, but I think they used the telephone to call in.

I am not positive, but I believe they gave us a call for us to call. I mean their number to call in.

At the time they were in the service station, I heard the dispatcher give a call that the suspect was just seen running across the lawn at the Oak Cliff Branch Library at Marsalis and Jefferson.

I reached over and blew the siren on the squad car to attract the officers' attention, Officers Baggett and Hawkins, and they came running out of the service station and jumped in the car, and I told them to report to, I can't remember, Marsalis and Jefferson, the suspect was seen running across the lawn at the library.

We proceeded south on Beckley to Jefferson, and east on Jefferson to Marsalis, where we hit the ground and searched the area at the library for the suspect who was—a teenager had run across the lawn and into the basement of the library.

At this time, after we found out that this person wasn't involved, we returned to the squad car and began to drive west on Jefferson, west on East Jefferson, and as we approached the 100 block of East Jefferson, the dispatcher said on the radio, that a suspect was just seen entering the Texas Theatre.

Mr. Belin. Now the suspect in the library, do you know who he was?

Mr. Hutson. No; I don't. There were several officers at the location, including some constables from the constable's office in Oak Cliff at Beckley and 12th, and there were four or five persons that came out from the basement with their hands over their head.

30 One of them was a young boy there, and another officer or two checked him. A sergeant was there.

Mr. Belin. Was that young boy the one that they thought was a suspect?

Mr. Hutson. Yes.

Mr. Belin. Do you know what the young boy said he was doing there?

Mr. Hutson. No, sir; I didn't interrogate him or talk to him.

Mr. Belin. Then you heard about another report on the suspect, you say?

Mr. Hutson. Yes, sir. Then we left that location as we were proceeding west on East Jefferson, and as we approached the 100 block of East Jefferson, the radio dispatcher said that a suspect had just entered the Texas Theatre.

Mr. Belin. All right, now, prior to that time had there been any recovery of any items of clothing?

Mr. Hutson. Yes, sir.

Mr. Belin. When did that occur?

Mr. Hutson. That occurred while we were searching the rear of the house in the 400 block of East Jefferson Boulevard at the rear of the Texaco station. Behind cars parked on a lot at this location, a white jacket was picked up by another officer. I observed him as he picked it up, and it was stated that this is probably the suspect's jacket. The original description was that he was wearing a white jacket.

Mr. Belin. What kind of jacket was it?

Mr. Hutson. It looked like a white cloth jacket to me.

Mr. Belin. Was it the zipper type?

Mr. Hutson. I didn't see it that close. I was approximately 25 yards away from the officer who picked it up.

Mr. Belin. All right, go ahead, continue with your story. You heard about the suspect going into the Texas Theatre?

Mr. Hutson. Yes, sir.

Mr. Belin. Then what happened?

Mr. Hutson. I told Officer Hawkins to drive west on Jefferson. He didn't know the exact location of the Texas Theatre. And from west on Jefferson to north on South Zangs Boulevard, and to make a left turn to travel west on West Sunset the wrong direction, which is a one-way street, and then to cut back in across the parking lot at the rear of the theatre to the fire exit doors at the rear.

Mr. Belin. All right.

Mr. Hutson. We pulled up to this location and I was the first out of the car to hit the ground. As I walked up to the fire exit doors, Officer Hawkins and Baggett were getting out of the car, and the door to the theatre opened, and this unknown white male was exiting.

I drew my pistol and put it on him and told him to put up his hands and not to make a move, and he was real nervous and scared and said: "I am not the one. I just came back to open the door. I work up the street at the shoestore, and Julia sent me back to open the door so you could get in."

I walked up and searched him briefly and I could see by the description and his clothes that he wasn't the person we were looking for.

Then I entered the theatre from this door, and Officer Hawkins with me, and Officer Baggett stayed behind to cover the fire exit door.

We walked down the bottom floor of the theatre, and I was joined there by Officer Walker by me, and as we walked up the north aisle from the center section, I observed Officer McDonald walking up the south aisle from the center section, and we observed two suspects sitting near the front in the center section.

Mr. Belin. You were on the right center or the left center?

Mr. Hutson. I was on the left center.

Mr. Belin. That would be the left center, and McDonald on the right center aisle?

Mr. Hutson. Yes; and Officer Walker was with me on the left center aisle.

Officer McDonald and Walker searched these two suspects, had them stand up and searched them while I covered.

As soon as they were searched—well, I left out that part about the number31 of people sitting in the theatre on the lower floor. When I walked in, I noticed there were seven people I observed sitting on the lower floor.

Mr. Belin. Did you count them?

Mr. Hutson. Yes, sir; I counted them.

Mr. Belin. All right, seven people. There were two people you noticed toward the front of the center section, right?

Mr. Hutson. Right.

Mr. Belin. Then where were the other five?

Mr. Hutson. There was two sitting in the center section near the front, and directly behind them, five rows from the back, and three seats over, I am not sure whether that was the third row—I put it in my report——

Mr. Belin. You say you put it in your report. Is that your report dated December 3, 1963?

Mr. Hutson. The third row from the back and the fifth seat.

Mr. Belin. Was there another person there?

Mr. Hutson. That was another person.

Mr. Belin. Who was that?

Mr. Hutson. That was Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. Belin. You didn't know it at the time?

Mr. Hutson. I didn't know who it was; no, sir.

Mr. Belin. Then who else?

Mr. Hutson. And directly behind him sitting against the back of the theatre was another man.

Mr. Belin. In the back of the last row of the center section?

Mr. Hutson. Yes.

Mr. Belin. That accounts for four people. Where were the others?

Mr. Hutson. There were two young boys.

Mr. Belin. Where were they?

Mr. Hutson. They were sitting back on the same row as that man, back row.

Mr. Belin. Right center or left center?

Mr. Hutson. They were sitting in the left as you face the screen, left center section.

Mr. Belin. All right, that accounts for six of them, and the only other people was one person sitting over here to the right side toward the rear?

Mr. Hutson. Yes; toward the rear.

Mr. Belin. Do you remember how many people were upstairs, or didn't you count?

Mr. Hutson. I couldn't tell, so many people up there, and so many policemen when I looked up. I don't have any idea.

Mr. Belin. Then what happened after you saw these two people towards the front of the center section? Were they searched?

Mr. Hutson. Yes, sir.

Mr. Belin. Then what?

Mr. Hutson. Then I proceeded up the aisle toward the back of the theatre, and McDonald was walking toward the back of the theatre in the right center section aisle.

As he approached this person sitting in the same row of seats, he approached this person. I approached from the row behind.

Mr. Belin. You approached from the second row from the back?

Mr. Hutson. Yes, sir.

Mr. Belin. All right, then what did you see happen?

Mr. Hutson. I saw this person stand up, and McDonald and him became engaged in a struggle.

Mr. Belin. Did you see who hit whom first?

Mr. Hutson. No.

Mr. Belin. You are shaking your head, no.

Mr. Hutson. No, I didn't.

Mr. Belin. Okay.

Mr. Hutson. The lights were down. The lights were on in the theatre, but it was dark.

Mr. Belin. All right.

32 Mr. Hutson. Visibility was poor.

Mr. Belin. Then what did you see happen?

Mr. Hutson. I saw McDonald down in the seat beside this person, and this person was in a half standing crouching position pushing down on the left side of McDonald's face, and McDonald was trying to push him off.

Mr. Belin. This person was right-handed?

You have used a motion here that he was pushing on the left side of McDonald's face?

Mr. Hutson. Right.

Mr. Belin. All right.

Mr. Hutson. And McDonald was trying to hold him off with his hand.

Mr. Belin. All right.

Mr. Hutson. I reached over from the back of the seat with my right arm and put it around this person's throat.

Mr. Belin. All right.

Mr. Hutson. And pulled him back up on the back of the seat that he was originally sitting in.

At this time Officer C. T. Walker came up in the same row of seats that the struggle was taking place in and grabbed this person's left hand and held it.

Mr. Belin. Okay.

Mr. Hutson. McDonald was at this time simultaneously trying to hold this person's right hand.

Somehow this person moved his right hand to his waist, and I saw a revolver come out, and McDonald was holding on to it with his right hand, and this gun was waving up toward the back of the seat like this.

Mr. Belin. Now you had your left hand, or was it McDonald's left hand, on the suspect's right hand?

Mr. Hutson. McDonald was using both of his hands to hold onto this person's right hand.

Mr. Belin. Okay.

Mr. Hutson. And the gun was waving around towards the back of the seat, up and down, and I heard a snapping sound at one time.

Mr. Belin. What kind of snapping sound was it?

Mr. Hutson. Sounded like the snap of a pistol, to me, when a pistol snaps.

Mr. Belin. Do you know which way the pistol was pointing when you heard the snap?

Mr. Hutson. Was pointing toward the back of the seat.

Mr. Belin. It was pointing toward the back of the seat?

Mr. Hutson. Yes; toward the screen in the front of the theatre, in that direction.

Mr. Belin. Wait a minute, now. Toward the screen?

Mr. Hutson. Right.

Mr. Belin. Toward the front of the theatre, or the back of the theatre?

Mr. Hutson. Toward the front of the theatre, we will call, facing the screen.

Mr. Belin. Was it aiming at anyone in particular?

Mr. Hutson. No; not any officer in particular. The only one that could have came in the line of fire was Officer Ray Hawkins, who was walking up in the row of seats in front.

Mr. Belin. Did you hear any people say anything? Did you hear the suspect say anything?

Mr. Hutson. I don't remember hearing anybody say anything.

Mr. Belin. Did you hear Officer McDonald say anything?

Mr. Hutson. No.

Mr. Belin. You are shaking your head no.

Mr. Hutson. No, sir.

Mr. Belin. All right, what happened then?

Mr. Hutson. The gun was taken from the suspect's hand by Officer McDonald and somebody else. I couldn't say exactly. They were all in on the struggle, and Officer Hawkins, in other words, he simultaneously, we decided to handcuff him.

We had restrained him after the pistol was taken, but he was still resisting arrest, and we stood him up and I let go of his neck at this time and took hold33 of his right arm and attempted to bring it back behind him, and Officer Hawkins and Walker and myself attempted to handcuff him.

At this time Sgt. Jerry Hill came up and assisted as we were handcuffing.

Then Captain Westbrook came in and gave the order to get him out of here as fast as you can and don't let anybody see him, and he was rushed out of the theatre.

I was in the row of seats behind. I saw Officer Walker and Sgt. Jerry Hill had ahold of him, and that is the last I ever saw him.

Mr. Belin. Did you ever see him down at the police station thereafter?

Mr. Hutson. Oswald?

Mr. Belin. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hutson. No, sir; I never did see him again.

Mr. Belin. How do you know this was Oswald?

Mr. Hutson. After we finished up in the theatre, I went downtown and went into the office where they were writing up the report, and to tell them the part I took in the arrest of him, to get the information, and at this time they had his name, Lee Harvey Oswald, but all we knew is, he was probably the suspect that shot the officer.

Mr. Belin. In the theatre did you know that he had any connection with the assassination?

Mr. Hutson. No, sir.

Mr. Belin. When did the police stop hitting him?

Mr. Hutson. I never did ever see them hit him.

Mr. Belin. You never saw any police hit him?

Mr. Hutson. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. Belin. Is there anything else that you can think of about this incident that you haven't related here?

While you are thinking about it, I am going to get a piece of clothing here for a minute and I will be back.

Anything else, Officer, you can think of?

Mr. Hutson. I can't think of anything else right now.

Mr. Belin. I am showing you Commission Exhibit 162, which appears to be a jacket with a zipper. Does that look like the jacket you saw?

Mr. Hutson. That looks like the jacket that was picked up by the officer behind the Texaco service station, behind the cars parked on the lot.

Mr. Belin. How far were you from the officer when he picked it up?

Mr. Hutson. Approximately 25 yards.

Mr. Belin. Did you hear what he said when he picked it up?

Mr. Hutson. I heard something—someone make the statement that that looks like the suspect's jacket. He has thrown it down. He is not wearing it now.

Mr. Belin. Where is this Texaco station?

Mr. Hutson. It is in the 400 block of East Jefferson at the intersection. It is on the northeast corner of the intersection of Crawford and Jefferson.

Mr. Belin. How far north of Jefferson would this jacket have been when it was found?

Mr. Hutson. One-half block.

Mr. Belin. Do you know the name of the officer that found it?

Mr. Hutson. No, sir; I don't know.

Mr. Belin. What happened to the jacket?

Mr. Hutson. The last time I saw this jacket, the officer had it in his possession.

Mr. Belin. Do you know who he gave it to?

Mr. Hutson. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. Belin. You don't know if he gave it to Captain Westbrook?

Mr. Hutson. I don't know. Captain Westbrook was there behind the house with us, and he was there at the time this was picked up with the man, but I don't know who had it in their hands. The only time I saw it was when the officer had it.

Mr. Belin. Showing you Commission Exhibit 150, have you ever seen this before, or not?

34 Mr. Hutson. It looks like the shirt that the person was wearing that we arrested in the theatre.

Mr. Belin. Officer, you have the right, if you want, to come back and read your deposition and sign it, or you can waive the signing and let the court reporter send it to us directly in Washington. Do you desire to do either one?

Mr. Hutson. I will go ahead and sign it.

Mr. Belin. The court reporter can get in touch with you at the Dallas Police Department, is that correct?

Mr. Hutson. Yes.

Mr. Belin. We want to thank you very much for your cooperation, and please convey my thanks to your sergeant or captain, whoever is in charge.

Mr. Hutson. All right, nice to have seen you all.


TESTIMONY OF C. T. WALKER

The testimony of C. T. Walker was taken at 1:30 p.m., on April 3, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. Belin. Do you want to stand and raise your right hand and be sworn?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. Walker. I do.

Mr. Belin. What is your name, please?

Mr. Walker. C. T. Walker.

Mr. Belin. What is your occupation, Mr. Walker?

Mr. Walker. Accident investigations at the Dallas Police Department.

Mr. Belin. How old are you?

Mr. Walker. I am 31 years old.

Mr. Belin. Married?

Mr. Walker. Yes.

Mr. Belin. Family?

Mr. Walker. One child. One girl.

Mr. Belin. How long have you been with the Dallas Police Department?

Mr. Walker. Five years in July.

Mr. Belin. What did you do prior to that?

Mr. Walker. I worked in Chance Vought Aircraft, in Grand Prairie.

Mr. Belin. Where were you born?

Mr. Walker. Stephenville, Tex.—I wasn't born there, I am sorry. I was born in Slaton, Tex.

Mr. Belin. Where were you born?

Mr. Walker. Slaton, Tex.

Mr. Belin. Where did you go to school?

Mr. Walker. Stephenville, Tex.

Mr. Belin. Did you you go to high school there?

Mr. Walker. I didn't finish high school.

Mr. Belin. How far did you finish?

Mr. Walker. Tenth grade.

Mr. Belin. Then what did you do?

Mr. Walker. I went to work at that time for Consolidated Aircraft in Fort Worth, Tex.

Mr. Belin. How long did you work for them?

Mr. Walker. Approximately 2 years.

Mr. Belin. What did you do?

Mr. Walker. Aircraft mechanic work.

Mr. Belin. Then what did you do?

Mr. Walker. I worked—I went back to Slaton, Tex., and worked for my uncle there for 1 year drilling irrigation wells.

35 Mr. Belin. After that what did you do?

Mr. Walker. I came back to Grand Prairie and went to work there and worked there 5 years.

Mr. Belin. Doing what?

Mr. Walker. Aircraft mechanic and electrical work.

Mr. Belin. Then what did you do?

Mr. Walker. I came to work for the Dallas Police Department.

Mr. Belin. When was that?

Mr. Walker. 1959, July the 27th.

Mr. Belin. And you have been there ever since?

Mr. Walker. Yes, sir.

Mr. Belin. Were you on duty on November 22, 1963?

Mr. Walker. Yes; I was.

Mr. Belin. Will you state where you were on duty around 12 or 12:30 or so on that day?

Mr. Walker. I was at Jefferson and Tenth Street at the fire station.

Mr. Belin. Is that in the Oak Cliff section there?

Mr. Walker. Yes; it is.

Mr. Belin. What were you doing there?

Mr. Walker. I was cruising the area and I had heard on the radio about the disturbance downtown, so I checked out at the fire station. I didn't check out. I just stopped and went in and listened to the news broadcast to find out in more detail what happened.

Mr. Belin. Were you cruising alone at that time?

Mr. Walker. Yes.

Mr. Belin. Is it general procedure for officers cruising in the daytime to work alone or in pairs?

Mr. Walker. Accident investigations, we work alone. That is day and night.

Mr. Belin. Day and night?

Mr. Walker. Yes.

Mr. Belin. What about nonaccident investigation? Do you know offhand?

Mr. Walker. Radio patrol work, one man during the day. Second and third platoon, they work two men.

Mr. Belin. That would be the second platoon would come to work about 4 in the afternoon?

Mr. Walker. Yes, sir.

Mr. Belin. Did you know Officer J. D. Tippit?

Mr. Walker. Yes.

Mr. Belin. Ever work with him at all?

Mr. Walker. I believe I have. I can't recall. I worked at the same substation he did before I transferred downtown, and I knew him quite well. I talked to him. He worked at Austin, and I have talked to him there.

Mr. Belin. Well, let's leave Officer Tippit for the moment and return to the fire station. You were there and you say you called in around shortly after you heard the news?

Mr. Walker. Yes. I went directly there. I was about a block away or might have been in the block I don't recall exactly.

Mr. Belin. You mean a block away from the fire station?

Mr. Walker. Yes.

Mr. Belin. Then what did you do when you called in?

Mr. Walker. I didn't call in. I just went in there and looked. They have a television there, and they broadcast that the President had been shot.

I had my radio up so I could hear from the door, and I went back out to my car. They were sending squads downtown, Code 3.

And I don't recall, I don't believe they actually sent me. I just went on my own because they normally don't send us in this type of call.

Mr. Belin. So you went on your own where?

Mr. Walker. I went to the Texas School Book Depository.

Mr. Belin. That is at Elm and Houston?

Mr. Walker. Yes.

Mr. Belin. Where did you park your car?

Mr. Walker. Right in front of the building.

36 Mr. Belin. What did you do after you got your car parked?

Mr. Walker. Went inside the building.

Mr. Belin. Where did you go inside?

Mr. Walker. I went right inside the front doors there and the hallway there and I stayed in there.

Mr. Belin. What did you do?

Mr. Walker. Well, there was squads of police upstairs supposedly searching the building out, and someone said they have enough upstairs, so I didn't go upstairs.

Mr Belin. What did you do when you were downstairs?

Mr. Walker. We were checking persons as they came in the building.

Mr. Belin. Did you keep people from coming in or going out, or what?

Mr. Walker. We didn't let anyone in or out except policemen.

Mr. Belin. About how soon after you saw the telecast do you think you got down there?

Mr. Walker. Ten or fifteen minutes.

Mr. Belin. Was the building sealed off at that time?

Mr. Walker. Yes; it was.

Mr. Belin. Did anyone tell you when they got it sealed off, or not?

Mr. Walker. No; they didn't.

Mr. Belin. What did you do after that?

Mr. Walker. I heard that an officer had been killed in Oak Cliff, had been shot, and I got back in my car and started off. A newsman ran up to the window and said, "Can I ride with you," and I let him get in the car and I went to Oak Cliff and 10th Street, and drove by the scene.

In fact, there was two newspapermen, but one got out at the scene where Officer Tippit was killed.

Mr. Belin. Was Officer Tippit's car still there?

Mr. Walker. Yes; it was still there.

Mr. Belin. Do you have any recollection—did you take a look at the car or not?

Mr. Walker. I didn't really look real close.

Mr. Belin. Did you talk to any witnesses there?

Mr. Walker. No; I didn't get out.

Mr. Belin. What did you do then?

Mr. Walker. I started up cruising the area, and I went up the street that runs north and south and faces the, runs into the library at Jefferson and Marsalis, and I saw a white male running east across the lawn of the library.

I was still approximately three-fourths of the block from Jefferson, and he was even south of Jefferson.

Mr. Belin. How far would he have been from you then when you saw him?

Mr. Walker. He was over a block.

Mr. Belin. All right.

Mr. Walker. I put out a broadcast on the air that there was a person fitting the description on the air that was seen running in front of the library, and I gave the location and said I will be around at the back. I ran around to the back of the library and other squads then surrounded the library.

Mr. Belin. You were not the one that put out the first description of the suspect they sought?

Mr. Walker. I didn't. The newspaperman was still with me at that time.

Mr. Belin. What was the description, if you remember, over the radio as to what you were looking for?

Mr. Walker. A white male, slender build, and had on a light-colored coat or shirt, and that is the best I can recall.

Mr. Belin. All right.

Mr. Walker. About 30 years old, I think he said.

Mr. Belin. Then what did you do? Did you go into the library?

Mr. Walker. As soon as the squads got there, I walked around with the other squads to the west entrance of the building, and we ordered everyone out of the building. They all came out with their hands up.

Mr. Belin. Was this the upstairs?

37 Mr. Walker. No; it is the downstairs. You had to go downstairs to get to it.

Mr. Belin. Something like a basement?

Mr. Walker. Yes. It is a semibasement, I would call it. And everyone came out, and I saw the person that had run in there, and he said that he had ran there to tell the other people about the shooting. And let's see, that he worked there, he told me he worked there and everything. I soon determined he wasn't the one.

Mr. Belin. Then what happened?

Mr. Walker. I got back in my car and started cruising the area again. I went up and down the alleys and streets. And there was one incident that really didn't have anything to do with it. I guess I was cruising up the alley with the newspaperman in the car, and I saw a man in long white sleeves, white shirt, walking across the parking lot there of the church, and I couldn't see below his legs, and there was a picket fence there, and when he got about 30 feet from me, I stopped the car, and he was walking toward me, and I had my gun in my lap at the time, and I said, "What is your name?" And he just looked at me. And at that time I didn't know whether he had a rifle or what he had, and he just looked at me, and he bent over, and I stuck my gun in the window and he raised up and had a small dog and he said, "What did you say?" And of course that newspaperman said, "My God, I thought he was going to shoot us."

I said, "I thought he was reaching down for a rifle."

Of course, he reached down and picked up a little dog.

Then we got around to Beckley and 10th Street, still cruising the area, when I heard the call come over the radio that the suspect was supposed to be at the theatre on Jefferson.

Mr. Belin. Was this the Texas Theatre?

Mr. Walker. Texas Theatre; yes.

Mr. Belin. Then what did you do?

Mr. Walker. I went in the alley up to the back door. When I arrived there, there was several officers there. There was a plainclothesman up on the ladder back there. I don't know what he was doing up there, but he was up on the ladder that goes up that door that is in the back. And there were several officers around the back of the theatre, and myself, and McDonald, and Officer Hutson went in the back door. And this man told us, or this boy told us that there was someone, said the person that he had seen was inside the theatre, and that he had changed seats several times, and he thought he was out there in the middle now.

Mr. Belin. Did he say that he had seen him? Did he tell you what he had seen him do, or not?

Mr. Walker. He said he seen him duck into the store where he worked, kind of looked back, and looked like he was running, and just run into the theatre.

Mr. Belin. Did he say why he seemed to duck in the store at all?

Mr. Walker. No; he didn't. He said he looked like he was scared.

Mr. Belin. Then do you remember this man's name that you talked to?

Mr. Walker. No; it was just for a second, and I went on past him.

Mr. Belin. All right, this was at the back of the theatre?

Mr. Walker. Yes.

Mr. Belin. Did anyone have a gun drawn when this man came?

Mr. Walker. I had my gun out. I had my gun out when I walked in the back of the theatre.

Mr. Belin. Did you have your gun as you continued walking through the back of the theatre?

Mr. Walker. I walked—McDonald and I walked across the stage, and he walked across the farthest away. It would be the south aisle. And I jumped off there where the north aisle runs east and west, and we started up. Hutson went down the steps in front of both of us, and he was slightly in front of me.

Mr. Belin. You are speaking about Officer T. A. Hutson and Officer M. N. McDonald and yourself?

Mr. Walker. Yes, sir.

Mr. Belin. The three of you came in from the back?

Mr. Walker. Yes; and there were probably a couple more, but I just don't remember.

38 Mr. Belin. Those are the three you remember?

Mr. Walker. Yes.

Mr. Belin. Now as you faced the screen, were you going up the right center or the left center aisle?

Mr. Walker. As I faced the screen, I would be going up the left.

Mr. Belin. Was it the left center aisle or was it the far left aisle that you were going up?

Mr. Walker. Be the far left aisle, I believe.

Mr. Belin. Next to the wall?

Mr. Walker. No; there is no aisle exactly against the wall. There is a row of seats, and then an aisle, and the middle aisle, and then another row of seats.

Mr. Belin. So you would be in the aisle, as you faced the screen, which would be to the left of the center row of seats?

Mr. Walker. That's right.

Mr. Belin. Okay; just tell what happened.

Mr. Walker. There were two white males sitting approximately in the center of the show. The lights had come on, and I don't know at what point they come on.

Mr. Belin. About how many people was seated down on the first floor?

Mr. Walker. There were two in the middle, and then there was Oswald, who turned out to be Oswald—I didn't know at that time it was him—and two behind him, I believe. I think there was one in the aisle, in the seats to the right of the right aisle. I don't know how you describe it, south of the south aisle, what I call it.

Mr. Belin. You were coming up the north aisle?

Mr. Walker. And this other person was sitting over on the other side of the show.

Mr. Belin. Do you recall then a total of six people?

Mr. Walker. That is all I recall seeing.

Mr. Belin. The people behind the man that you later found out to be Oswald, how far were they behind?

Mr. Walker. They were about three or four or five seats behind him.

Mr. Belin. In what row were they?

Mr. Walker. I believe they were in the last row, or maybe the next to the last.

Mr. Belin. What row was Oswald in, to the best of your recollection?

Mr. Walker. The best I recall, fourth or fifth aisle from me, from the back.

Mr. Belin. Fourth or fifth row from the back?

Mr. Walker. Yes.

Mr. Belin. All right, now, you mentioned there were two people sitting together in the center?

Mr. Walker. Yes.

Mr. Belin. You came up and approached those people?

Mr. Walker. McDonald approached them from the——

Mr. Belin. Right?

Mr. Walker. Right center aisle, and I approached from the left center aisle.

Mr. Belin. Did you have your gun drawn?

Mr. Walker. I had it drawn, and I put it back in my holster.

Mr. Belin. Why did you do that?

Mr. Walker. I had to search him. As I got up to him, we had him stand up and we searched him with their hands up, and I had my gun in the holster. I searched the one on the left, and McDonald searched the one on the right.

Mr. Belin. Were you looking at other people?

Mr. Walker. I looked around. Of course, I didn't recognize anybody. I didn't know who they were.

Mr. Belin. Then what?

Mr. Walker. I walked back up to the aisle that I had been going down, and McDonald walked out the aisle he had been walking down, and we approached the aisle where Oswald was sitting. McDonald approached him from his aisle, and Hutson, which was in front of me on the same aisle, had started in the seat toward Oswald, in the seat that runs behind him.

Mr. Belin. You mean the row of seats that ran behind him?

39 Mr. Walker. And he started down that way, and I was walking toward him slightly behind him in the same row of seats that Oswald was sitting.

Mr. Belin. So you approached Oswald from Oswald's left, and McDonald approached Oswald from Oswald's right?

Mr. Walker. That's right.

Mr. Belin. Was Oswald sitting closer to McDonald, or you?

Mr. Walker. Closer to McDonald. He was sitting in the third seat from McDonald's aisle.

Mr. Belin. All right, then, what happened?

Mr. Walker. McDonald approached him, and he said, I don't know exactly, I assumed he said, "Stand up!" And Oswald stood up.

Mr. Belin. Did you hear Oswald say anything?

Mr. Walker. No.

Mr. Belin. Was Oswald facing you as he stood up?

Mr. Walker. No; he faced McDonald.

Mr. Belin. All right.

Mr. Walker. He put his hand up, not exactly as you would raise your hands to be searched, but more or less showing off his muscles, what I call it, kind of hunching his shoulders at the same time, and McDonald put his hand down to Oswald's pocket, it looked like to me, and McDonald's head was tilted slightly to the right, looking down in the right hand.

Mr. Belin. Looking in whose?

Mr. Walker. McDonald's right hand as he was searching, and he felt of his pocket, and Oswald then hit him, it appeared, with his left hand first, and then with his right hand. They was scuffling there, and Officer Hutson and I ran toward the back of Oswald and Hutson threw his arm around his neck, and I grabbed his left arm, and we threw him back over the seat.

At this time I didn't see any gun that was involved. I don't know whether we pulled Oswald away from McDonald for a split second or what, but he was thrown back against the seat, and then the next thing I saw, Oswald's hand was down on the gun in his belt there, and McDonald had came forward again and was holding his, Oswald's hand.

Mr. Belin. When you saw Oswald's hand by his belt, which hand did you see by his belt?

Mr. Walker. I saw his right hand. I had his left hand, you see.

Mr. Belin. When you saw Oswald's hand by his belt, which hand did you see then?

Mr. Walker. He had ahold of the handle of it.

Mr. Belin. Handle of what?

Mr. Walker. The revolver.

Mr. Belin. Was there a revolver there?

Mr. Walker. Yes; there was.

Mr. Belin. All right.

Mr. Walker. And it stayed there for a second or two. He didn't get it out. McDonald had come forward and was holding his hand.

Ray Hawkins was behind me to my left at that time, and whether or not he came at the same time we did or not, but he was there, and there was a detective.

Oswald had ahold of my shirt and he practically pulled off my nameplate by gripping it with his hand, and I was bent over, and I was in an awkward position, and I could see several hands on the gun.

The gun finally got out of his belt, and it was about waist high and pointed out at about a 45 angle.

I turned around and I was holding Oswald trying to get his arm up behind him in a hammerlock, and I heard it click. I turned around and the gun was still pointing at approximately a 45 angle. Be pointed slightly toward the screen, what I call.

Now Hawkins was in the general direction of the gun.

Mr. Belin. When you heard a click, what kind of click was it?

Mr. Walker. A real light click, real light.

Mr. Belin. Was it a click of the seat?

Mr. Walker. Well, I assume it was a click of a revolver on the shell, and40 that is when the gun was doing the most moving around. It was moving around in the general area, and they were still fighting. And some one said, "Let go of the gun," and Oswald said, "I can't."

And a detective, I don't recall who it was, there were so many people around by that time, the area was bursting with policemen, and it appeared to me that he reached over and pulled the gun away from everybody, pulled it away from everyone, best I can recall.

Mr. Belin. Okay, what happened then?

Mr. Walker. Ray Hawkins was on my left. He said, "Bring his arm around," and said, "I have the handcuffs."

He said, "Bring his arm around so I can get the cuffs on him."

I finally got his left arm around and I snapped the cuffs on it, and Hawkins went over the seat there and picked up, someone pulled his right arm around there, and Hawkins snapped the handcuffs on him, and turned him around and faced him, Oswald, north.

And Detective Bentley got on his left arm and I took his right arm, and we went out the aisle that I, which would be the left aisle, that I had came in, with Oswald, and walked him out the front.

He was hollering, "I protest this police brutality."

Mr. Belin. All right. Let me ask you this. What is the fact as to whether you had seen police officers hitting Oswald?

Mr. Walker. The only person I saw was McDonald. They were exchanging blows, and if he actually came in contact. He was to my back.

Mr. Belin. Did you see anyone other than McDonald hit Oswald?

Mr. Walker. No; I didn't.

Mr. Belin. Did you hit Oswald?

Mr. Walker. No; I didn't.

Mr. Belin. Did Hutson hit Oswald?

Mr. Walker. No, sir; he didn't.

Mr. Belin. All right, go ahead. Did Oswald say, "I am not resisting arrest"? Do you remember him saying that at all, or don't you remember?

Mr. Walker. The only thing he said later, I know, was, "I fought back there, but I know I wasn't supposed to be carrying a gun."

Mr. Belin. In any event, you brought him down the lobby of the theatre?

Mr. Walker. When we went out the front door, he started hollering, "I protest this police brutality."

People out there were hollering, "Kill the s.o.b." "Let us have him. We want him."

Mr. Belin. At that time, did anyone connect him with the assassination of the President?

Mr. Walker. Not unless the crowd had assumed that is who we were after, I don't know.

Mr. Belin. When you were after him, you were after him for what?

Mr. Walker. For the killing of Officer Tippit.

Mr. Belin. All right, go ahead.

Mr. Walker. There was a plain car, police car out in front. The right door was open, and Bentley went in first, and Oswald come and then I. We sat in the back seat with him.

Sgt. Jerry Hill in the front, and two more detectives that I don't know who they were, that rode down, too.

There were five officers and Oswald in the car. We took him down.

Mr. Belin. Any conversation take place? First of all, anything up until the time you got in the car that you think is important in any way?

Mr. Walker. Not that I recall, no.

Mr. Belin. All right, you got in the car and went down to the police station?

Mr. Walker. As we were driving down there, yes; he said——

Mr. Belin. Who was he?

Mr. Walker. Oswald said, "What is this all about?" He was relating this all the time. He said, "I know my rights." That is what he was saying, "I know my rights."

And we told him that the police officer, that he was under arrest because the police officer, he was suspected in the murder of a police officer.

41 And he said, "Police officer been killed?"

And nobody said nothing. He said, "I hear they burn for murder."

And I said, "You might find out."

And he said, "Well, they say it just takes a second to die."

And that is all I recall.

Now we talked some more going down, but that is the thing that I recall.

Mr. Belin. Do you recall any other conversation that you had with him, or not?

Mr. Walker. No; he was just denying it, and he was saying that all he did was carry a gun, and the reason he fought back in the theatre is, he knew he wasn't supposed to be carrying a gun, and he had never been to jail.

Mr. Belin. Did he say anything about why he was at the theatre?

Mr. Walker. No.

Mr. Belin. Did he say why he was carrying the gun?

Mr. Walker. No; he didn't.

Mr. Belin. Do you remember what clothes he had on?

Mr. Walker. He had on a white T-shirt under a brown shirt, and a pair of black pants.

Mr. Belin. How would you describe Oswald? About how tall?

Mr. Walker. About 5'8" about 150 pounds, or 155 pounds, something like that.

Mr. Belin. What color hair?

Mr. Walker. I would say sandy, the best I can recall.

Mr. Belin. Sandy, by that, you mean blond?

Mr. Walker. Darker than blonde. I just don't recall this for sure.

Mr. Belin. Some shade of brown?

Mr. Walker. It wasn't what you call blond. It was darker than blond, in my opinion.

Mr. Belin. Was it some shade of brown?

Mr. Walker. Yes; the best I can recall.

Mr. Belin. Anything else about him on your way to the police station?

Mr. Walker. He was real calm. He was extra calm. He wasn't a bit excited or nervous or anything. That was all the conversation I can recall going down.

Mr. Belin. After you got down there, what did you do with him?

Mr. Walker. We took him up the homicide and robbery bureau, and we went back there, and one of the detectives said put him in this room.

I put him in the room, and he said, "Let the uniform officers stay with him." And I went inside, and Oswald sat down, and he was handcuffed with his hands behind him.

I sat down there, and I had his pistol, and he had a card in there with a picture of him and the name A. J. Hidell on it.

Mr. Belin. Do you remember what kind of card it was?

Mr. Walker. Just an identification card. I don't recall what it was.

Mr. Belin. All right.

Mr. Walker. And I told him, "That is your real name, isn't it?"

Mr. Belin. He—had he earlier told you his name was Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. Walker. I believe he had.

Mr. Belin. All right.

Mr. Walker. And he said, "No, that is not my real name."

And I started talking to him and I asked him, I said, "Why did you kill the officer?"

And he just looked at me. And I said, "Did you kill the officer because you were scared of being arrested for something?"

And he said, "I am not ascared of anything. Do I look like I am scared now?"

Mr. Belin. Did he look like he was scared?

Mr. Walker. No; he didn't look like he was scared. He was calm. Not a bit nervous.

Mr. Belin. Any other thing that you can remember that took place during that time that he was with you?

Mr. Walker. No; I can't recall.

Mr. Belin. Were you asked ever to make a report of any conversation you had with him?

Mr. Walker. No; they called me on the phone a couple of days after, and some42 supervisor asked me, there had been a rumor got out that Oswald had said, "Well, I got me a President and a cop. I should have got me two more." Or something like that.

But that conversation was never said, because I was with him from the time that he was arrested until the time the detectives took him over.

I made a written report on the arrest about a week after it happened, and that is the only conversation I had with anyone.

Mr. Belin. In that report you didn't put any conversation that Oswald had, did you?

Mr. Walker. No; I didn't put any conversation. I just put the details of the arrest.

Mr. Belin. Were you asked just to make a report on your arrest of Oswald?

Mr. Walker. That is normal procedure, just what we call a "Dear Chief" letter.

Just describe the arrest and other officers involved, and we never did put what conversation we had.

Mr. Belin. Anything else that Oswald said in your presence, or that you said to him?

Mr. Walker. Not that I recall.

Mr. Belin. At any time prior to the time you left him, did you find out he was a suspect in the assassination?

Mr. Walker. When I got to the jail office and talk was going there that he was the suspect.

Mr. Belin. Did you ask him any questions about the assassination?

Mr. Walker. No; I didn't tie him in at that time with the actual killing of the President.

Mr. Belin. Is there anything else you can think of now that might be relevant?

Mr. Walker. No.

Mr. Belin. Now we chatted a little bit at the beginning prior to this deposition, and you said that you knew Officer Tippit, is that correct?

Mr. Walker. Yes.

Mr. Belin. How long had you known Officer Tippit?

Mr. Walker. Ever since I have been on the police department. When I first came to work, I was assigned to the Oak Cliff substation and worked there until I went to traffic investigation, and he was there all the time.

I am sure I worked with him when I first started out and was training and stuff like that. But I had worked with him prior to his death for, I know, maybe 2 or 3 years.

Mr. Belin. Now at the time of the Tippit shooting, there had been no call for Lee Harvey Oswald as an individual, although there was a call for—I mean there was an announcement of a general description of the suspect in the assassination?

Mr. Walker. Yes.

Mr. Belin. Just from your knowledge of the way Tippit operated, do you have any reason to think whether that general call might have affected his perhaps stopping this man on the street at the time of the shooting?

Mr. Walker. I believe the type of officer Tippit was, that he was suspicious of him as a suspect.

Mr. Belin. Why do you believe that?

Mr. Walker. Well, Officer Tippit was an exceptional officer. He made good arrests. It was known around the station that he was exceptionally good with investigative work and just general police work. He was above normal.

Mr. Belin. Why do you think he stopped this man?

Mr. Walker. I believe that the description given on the radio, that he probably stopped just to check him out as a general procedure, as we do.

Mr. Belin. Well, if he stopped him for that reason, this man, he would have stopped him because the man was a suspect for perhaps the assassination, why wouldn't he have had his gun out when he stopped him?

Mr. Walker. Well, there are a lot of people of that description, and it is just not police practice to pull your gun on a person because he fits the description of someone, unless you are positive almost that it is the suspect. You just don't do it.

43 Mr. Belin. Let me ask you, did you have anything to do on November 22, or anything more to do on November 22, with either the Tippit shooting or investigation or apprehension of Oswald or the assassination of the President's investigation?

Mr. Walker. No. I stayed down in Captain Westbrook's office for a while until I got off.

Mr. Belin. How about November 23, did you have anything to do that day?

Mr. Walker. That would have been Saturday.

Mr. Belin. Or did you work on Saturday?

Mr. Walker. Yes, I worked on Saturday. I didn't follow up on any investigation of any kind.

Mr. Belin. Were you going back to accident investigation?

Mr. Walker. Yes, I went back to the accident investigation.

Mr. Belin. You didn't have anything to do with anything connected with the assassination after November 22?

Mr. Walker. No.

Mr. Belin. Is there anything that we haven't covered here that you can think of at this time, Officer Walker?

Mr. Walker. Not that I can think of. It's been a long time, and I just don't recall. I think there was more conversation with Oswald, but I can't recall all of it. I just remember what I considered the high points of it.

Mr. Belin. Did he ever ask for a lawyer in your presence?

Mr. Walker. I don't recall. I think he said—I know he was repeating, "I know my rights." I don't recall him actually asking for a lawyer.

Mr. Belin. Did he say where he got the gun?

Mr. Walker. No, he didn't say where he got the gun.

Mr. Belin. Did he admit that it was his gun?

Mr. Walker. Never did ask him actually whether it was his gun. He said he knew he was carrying a gun and he wasn't supposed to, so I assumed it was his gun.

Mr. Belin. Well, we certainly appreciate your taking the time to come down here to testify before us, and we want to thank you very much for your cooperation.

Mr. Walker. Okay. I know you've got a problem here.

Mr. Belin. Have I asked you whether or not you care to read the deposition? I don't believe I have. You have an opportunity here to either read the deposition and then sign it, or else waive the signing of it and have the court reporter, Helen Laidrich, send it directly to us in Washington?

Mr. Walker. I will go ahead and sign it.

Mr. Belin. All right, Miss Laidrich will get in touch with you at the Dallas Police Department, I assume.

Mr. Walker. Yes. Do you want me to sign it now?

Mr. Belin. I am talking about when she gets it typed up. Do you want to read it or have her send it to us directly?

Mr. Walker. Do I have to come, down here to read it here?

Mr. Belin. Yes, you have to come down and read it here.

Mr. Walker. I will come down and read it and sign it.

Mr. Belin. All right, fine. Thank you, sir.


TESTIMONY OF GERALD LYNN HILL

The testimony of Gerald Lynn Hill was taken at 4:15 p.m., on April 8, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. Belin. Sergeant, would you stand and raise your right hand, please.

Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

44 Mr. Hill. I do.

Mr. Belin. All right. Sergeant, could you please state your name.

Mr. Hill. Gerald Lynn Hill.

Mr. Belin. What is your occupation?

Mr. Hill. Sergeant in the Dallas Police Department.

Mr. Belin. How long have you been with the Dallas Police Department?

Mr. Hill. Since March 7, 1955.

Mr. Belin. How old are you, Sergeant Hill?

Mr. Hill. Thirty-four.

Mr. Belin. Where were you born?

Mr. Hill. Ferris, Tex.

Mr. Belin. Did you go to school there?

Mr. Hill. No, sir; I went to school in Dallas.

Mr. Belin. How far did you get through school?

Mr. Hill. Went through high school.

Mr. Belin. Then what did you do when you got out of high school?

Mr. Hill. Went to work for the Dallas Times Herald. Worked there from January of 1948 until April of 1954.

At the time I resigned there, I was radio-television editor for the paper.

Went from there to the Dallas Bureau of WBAP-TV in Fort Worth, and worked for them until March the 21st, 1958.

The last 2 weeks I was working for them, I was attending the police academy for the police department.

Mr. Belin. Then you went in the police department?

Mr. Hill. I went with the police prior to quitting. I turned in my notice with WBAP and they let me work it out while I attended the police school, because I was actually hired on a Saturday, and the police school started on Monday, and I wanted to leave on good terms with one place and start to school on time with the other, so they worked out an agreement with me.

Mr. Belin. Were you on duty on November 22, 1963?

Mr. Hill. Yes, sir; I was.

Mr. Belin. Where were you on duty?

Mr. Hill. I was on special assignment, detached from the police patrol division, and assigned to the police personnel office investigating applicants for the police department.

Mr. Belin. Where was this?

Mr. Hill. On that particular day, I was at the city hall in the personnel office, and did not have an assignment of any kind pertaining to the President's trip or any other function other than the investigation of police applicants.

Mr. Belin. When did you leave the city hall?

Mr. Hill. The President had passed the corner of Commerce or—excuse me, Main and Harwood, turned off Harwood onto Main, and proceeded west on Main.

I had watched it from the personnel office window, which is on the third floor of the police and courts building, and Capt. W. R. Westbrook, who was my commander, had apparently been on the streets watching the parade, and he came back in and we were discussing some facts about how fast it passed and the police unit in it, and we had seen the chief's car in it, and how Mrs. Kennedy was dressed, and we were sitting in the office when a lady by the name of Kemmey, I believe is the way she spelled it, came in and said that the President had been shot at Main and Lamar.

Our first reaction was one of disbelief, but a minute later—she just made the statement and walked out—and a minute later Captain Westbrook said, "She wasn't kidding."

And I said, "When she you mean?"

And he said, "When she is kidding, she can't keep a straight face."

And figuring it was true, the dispatcher's office would be packed to the gills, so I walked down to the far end of the hall on the third floor where there is an intercom box connected to the radio from the dispatcher's office, and also you can hear the field side of the intercom of anything that is said to the police radio, and this is down in the press room.

I stood there for a minute and I heard a voice which I am almost sure was45 Inspector Sawyer—but being I didn't see a broadcast, I couldn't say for sure—saying we think we have located the building where the shots were fired from at Elm and Houston Streets, and send us some help.

At this time I went back to the personnel office and told the captain that Inspector Sawyer requested assistance at Elm and Houston Streets. The captain said, "Go ahead and go."

And he turned to another man in the office named Joe Fields and told him to get on down there.

I got on the elevator on the third floor and went to the basement and saw a uniformed officer named Jim M. Valentine, and I asked Jim what he was doing, and he said, "Nothing in particular."

And I said, "I need you to take me down to Elm Street."

"The President has been shot."

We started out of the basement to get in his car, and a boy named Jim E. Well, with the Dallas Morning News, had parked his car in the basement and was walking up and asked what was going on, and we told him the President was shot.

And he said, "Where are you going?"

And we said, "Down to Elm and Houston where they think the shots came from."

And he said, "Could I go with you?"

So we took him in the back seat of the car. And I don't remember what the number was.

We came out of the basement on Commerce, went to Central, turned left, went over on Elm, ran into a traffic jam on Elm, went down as far as Pearl Street and turned back to the left on Pearl and went to Jackson Street, went west on Jackson to Houston Street, and turned back to the right and pulled up in front of the Book Depository at Elm and Houston, jumped out of the car and Inspector Sawyer was there.

I asked him did he have enough men outside to cover the building properly, and he said, "Yes; I believe so."

And I said, "Are you ready for us to go in and shake it down?"

And he said, "Yes, let's go in and check it out."

About this time Captain Fritz and two or three more detectives from homicide, a boy named Roy Westphal, who works for the special service bureau, and a couple of uniformed officers, and a couple of deputy sheriffs came up.

Now you identified them to me the other day, the two boys that were on the sixth floor from the sheriff's office.

Mr. Belin. I think when we chatted briefly the other day, I believe I said Boone and Mooney. Does that sound familiar?

Mr. Hill. I wouldn't know, but I know they identified themselves to us as deputy sheriffs, and some more people knew them.

So we went into the building, and Captain Fritz and his men said they would start at the first floor and work up, and they asked several of us to go to the top floor and work down.

We went up to the seventh floor on the elevator and I believe the elevator ran to the sixth, and we cut around the stairway and got to seven and shook it down.

At this time there were the two deputy sheriffs and I and one uniformed officer up there.

Mr. Belin. You went to the top floor of the building?

Mr. Hill. Right.

Mr. Belin. Do you know whether or not the elevator went all the way up, or did you climb?

Mr. Hill. I think we climbed a flight of stairs. In fact, I am almost sure.

Mr. Belin. Do you think you climbed a flight of stairs because the elevator went no further?

Mr. Hill. I think it either went to fifth or sixth, but I am almost positive it didn't go to seventh. I may be wrong, but I didn't particularly take notice.

But I think they told us we were going to have to walk up a couple of flights because the elevator didn't go all the way.

Mr. Belin. Where did you take this elevator?

46 Mr. Hill. Walked in the front door of the Book Depository and turned to the right. Took the passenger elevator. We did not take the freight elevator. The freight elevator goes all the way, I believe.

Mr. Belin. You took a passenger elevator?

Mr. Hill. Yes.

Mr. Belin. When you got off the passenger elevator, what did you do?

Mr. Hill. We asked them where the stairway was to the top floor, and if this was on the fifth, we walked through—there is a little office section near the elevator. We walked over past it and through a large room to the stairway, and then went all the way as high as the stairway would take us, which would have been on seven.

In the middle of the floor on the seventh floor there was a ladder leading up into an area they called the penthouse, which was used mainly for storage.

Westphal went up this ladder, I know, and the uniformed officer went up it.

The rest of us were checking around the boxes and books.

So on file we verified that there was not anyone on the seventh floor, and we didn't find any indication that the shots had been fired from there.

Mr. Belin. Then what did you do?

Mr. Hill. Left the uniformed officer there, and these two deputies and I went down to sixth.

I started to the right side of the building.

Mr. Belin. When you say the right side, you mean——

Mr. Hill. Well, it would have been the west side.

Mr. Belin. All right, they moved over to the east side?

Mr. Hill. We hadn't been there but a minute until someone yelled, "Here it is," or words to that effect.

I moved over and found they had found an area where the boxes had been stacked in sort of a triangle shape with three sides over near the window.

Two small boxes with Roller books on the side of the carton were stacked near the east side of the window.

Mr. Belin. Let's talk about which window now, sir. First of all, what side of the building? Was it on the north, east, south, or west?

Mr. Hill. It would have been on the south side near the east wall. It would have been the window on the southeast corner of the building facing south.

Mr. Belin. Would it have been the first window next to the east wall or the second window, or what, if you remember?

Mr. Hill. As near as I can remember, it was the first window next to the east wall, but here again it is—I stayed up there such a short time that—yes, that is the one I am going to have to say it was, because as near as I can remember, that is the one it was.

Mr. Belin. What did you see over there?

Mr. Hill. There was the boxes. The boxes were stacked in sort of a three-sided shield.

That would have concealed from general view, unless somebody specifically walked up and looked over them, anyone who was in a sitting or crouched position between them and the window. In front of this window and to the left or east corner of the window, there were two boxes, cardboard boxes that had the words "Roller books," on them.

On top of the larger stack of boxes that would have been used for concealment, there was a chicken leg bone and a paper sack which appeared to have been about the size normally used for a lunch sack. I wouldn't know what the sizes were. It was a sack, I would say extended, it would probably be 12 inches high, 10 inches long, and about 4 inches thick.

Then, on the floor near the baseboard or against the baseboard of the south wall of the building, in front of the second window, in front of the, well, we would have to say second window from the east corner, were three spent shells.

This is actually the jacket that holds the powder and not the slug. At this point, I asked the deputy sheriff to guard the scene, not to let anybody touch anything, and I went over still further west to another window about the middle of the building on the south side and yelled down to the street for them to send us the crime lab. Not knowing or not getting any indication from the street47 that they heard me, I asked the deputies again to guard the scene and I would go down and make sure that the crime lab was en route.

When I got toward the back, at this time I heard the freight elevator moving, and I went back to the back of the building to either catch the freight elevator or the stairs, and Captain Fritz and his men were coming up on the elevator.

I told him what we found and pointed out the general area, pointed out the deputies to them, and told him also that I was going to make sure the crime lab was en route.

About the time I got to the street, Lieutenant Day from the crime lab was arriving and walking up toward the front door. I told him that the area we had found where the shots were fired from was on the sixth floor on the southeast corner, and that they were guarding the scene so nobody would touch anything until he got there. And he said, "All right."

And he went on into the building, and I went over to tell Inspector Sawyer, who was standing almost directly in front of the building across the little service drive there at what would actually be Elm and Houston. About this time I saw a firetruck come up, but I didn't pay any attention.

I was talking to Inspector Sawyer, telling him what we found, when Sgt. C. B. Owens of Oak Cliff—he was the senior sergeant out there that day, and actually acting lieutenant—came up and wanted to know what we wanted him to do, being that he had been dispatched to the scene.

Mr. Belin. Let me stop you right there. Who dispatched him to the scene?

Mr. Hill. Apparently the dispatcher. Now his call number that day could have been 19.

Mr. Belin. Okay, go ahead, Sergeant Hill.

Mr. Hill. We were standing there with Inspector Sawyer and Assistant District Attorney Bill Alexander came up to us, and we had been standing there for a minute when we heard the strange voice on the police radio that said something to the effect that, if I remember right, either the first call that came out said that they were in the 400 block of East Jefferson, and that an officer had been shot, and the voice on the radio, whoever it was, said he thought he was dead.

At this point Sergeant Owens said something to the effect that this would have been one of his men. And prior, on our way to the location from the city hall, a description had been broadcast of a possible suspect in the assassination.

With the description, as I remember, it was a white male, 5'8", 160 pounds, wearing a jacket, a light shirt, dark trousers, and sort of bushy brown hair. Captain Sawyer said, "Well, as much help as we have here, why don't you go with Sergeant Owens to Oak Cliff on that detail." And Bill Alexander said, "Well, if it is all right, I will go with you." And the reporter, Jim Ewell, came up, and I said an officer had been shot in Oak Cliff, and he wanted to go with us also.

In the process of getting the location straight, and I think it was at this point I was probably using 19 call number, because I was riding with him, we got the information correctly that the shooting had actually been on East 10th, and we were en route there.

We crossed the Commerce Street viaduct and turned, made a right turn to go under the viaduct on North Beckley to go up to 10th Street. As we passed, just before we got to Colorado on Beckley, an ambulance with a police car behind it passed us en route to Methodist Hospital.

We went on to the scene of the shooting where we found a squad car parked against the right or the south curb on 10th Street, with a pool of blood on the left-hand side of it near the side of the car.

Tippit had already been removed. The first man that came up to me, he said, "The man that shot him was a white male about 5'10", weighing 160 to 170 pounds, had on a jacket and a pair of dark trousers, and brown bushy hair."

At this point the first squad rolled up, and that would have been squad 105, which had been dispatched from downtown. An officer named Joe Poe, and I believe his partner was a boy named Jez.

I told him to stay at the scene and guard the car and talk to as many witnesses as they could find to the incident, and that we were going to start checking the area.

48 Mr. Belin. Now, let me interrupt you here, sergeant. Do you remember the name of the person that gave you the description?

Mr. Hill. No. I turned him over to Poe, and I didn't even get his name.

Mr. Belin. Had anyone at anytime given you any cartridge cases of any kind?

Mr. Hill. No; they had not. This came much later.

Mr. Belin. Go ahead if you would, please.

Mr. Hill. All right, I took the key to Poe's car. Another person came up, and we also referred him to Poe, that told us the man had run over into the funeral home parking lot. That would be Dudley Hughes' parking lot in the 400 block of East Jefferson—and taken off his jacket.

Mr. Belin. You turned this man over to Poe, too?

Mr. Hill. Yes, sir.

Mr. Belin. I notice in the radio log transcript, which is marked Sawyer Deposition Exhibit A, that at 1:26 p.m., between 1:26 p.m., and 1:32 p.m., there was a call from No. 19 to 531. 531 is your home number, I believe? Your radio home station?

Mr. Hill. Yes.

Mr. Belin. That says, "One of the men here at the service station that saw him seems to think he is in this block, 400 block East Jefferson, behind his service station. Give me some more squads over here." "Several squads check out." Was that you?

Mr. Hill. That was Owens.

Mr. Belin. Were you calling in at all?

Mr. Hill. No. That is Bud Owens.

Mr. Belin. You had left Owens' car at this time?

Mr. Hill. I left Owens' car and had 105 car at this time.

Mr. Belin. Where did you go?

Mr. Hill. At this time, about the time this broadcast came out, I went around and met Owens. I whipped around the block. I went down to the first intersection east of the block where all this incident occurred, and made a right turn, and traveled one block, and came back up on Jefferson.

Mr. Belin. All right.

Mr. Hill. And met Owens in front of two large vacant houses on the north side of Jefferson that are used for the storage of secondhand furniture.

By then Owens had information also that some citizen had seen the man running towards these houses.

At this time Sergeant Owens was there; I was there; Bill Alexander was there; it was probably about this time that C. T. Walker, an accident investigator got there; and with Sergeant Owens and Walker and a couple more officers standing outside, Bill Alexander and I entered the front door of the house that would have been to the west—it was the farthest to the west of the two—shook out the lower floor, made sure nobody was there, and made sure that all the entrances from either inside or outside of the building to the second floor were securely locked.

Then we went back over to the house next door, which would have been the first one east of this one, and made sure it was securely locked, both upstairs and downstairs. There was no particular sign of entry on this building at all. At this point we came back out to the street, and I asked had Owens received any information from the hospital on Tippit.

And he said they had just told him on channel 2 that he was dead. I got back in 105's car, went back around to the original scene, gave him his car keys back, and left his car there, and at this point he came up to me with a Winston cigarette package.

Mr. Belin. Who was this?

Mr. Hill. This was Poe.

Mr. Belin. You went back to the Tippit scene?

Mr. Hill. Right.

Mr. Belin. You went back to 400 East 10th Street?

Mr. Hill. Right. And Poe showed me a Winston cigarette package that contained three spent jackets from shells that he said a citizen had pointed out to him where the suspect had reloaded his gun and dropped these in the49 grass, and that the citizen had picked them up and put them in the Winston package.

I told Poe to maintain the chain of evidence as small as possible, for him to retain these at that time, and to be sure and mark them for evidence, and then turn them over to the crime lab when he got there, or to homicide.

The next place I went was, I walked up the street about half a block to a church. That would have been on the northeast corner of 10th Street in the 400 block, further west of the shooting, and was preparing to go in when there were two women who came out and said they were employees inside and had been there all the time. I asked them had they seen anybody enter the church, because we were still looking for possible places for the suspect to hide. And they said nobody passed them, nobody entered the church, but they invited us to check the rest of the doors and windows and go inside if we wanted to.

An accident investigator named Bob Apple was at the location at that time, and we were standing there together near his car when the call came out that the suspect had been seen entering the Texas Theatre.

Mr. Belin. What did you do then?

Mr. Hill. We both got in Apple's car and went to Jefferson, made a right on Jefferson, headed west from our location, and pulled up as close to the front of the theatre as we could. There were already two or three officers at the location. I asked if it was covered off at the back.

They said, "We got the building completely covered off."

I entered the right or the east most door to the south side of the theatre, and in the process or in the meantime, from the time we heard the first call to the time we got to the theatre, the call came on over the radio that the suspect was believed to be in the balcony.

We went up to the balcony, ran up the stairs, which would have been also on the east side. And the picture was still on. I remember yelling to either the manager or the assistant manager or an employee, maybe just an usher, to turn on as many lights as they could. Went up to the balcony, and Detective Bentley was up there, and a uniform officer, and here again there was another deputy sheriff. He was a uniform man.

There were some six people in the balcony, and we checked them out and none of them appeared to fit the physical description that we had of the man that shot Tippit.

I went over and opened the fire escape door or fire exit door and stepped out on the fire escape, and Capt. C. E. Talbert was down on the ground. He said, "Did you find anything?"

And I said, "Not up here."

He said, "Have you checked the roof?"

There was a ladder leading from the fire escape that goes on up to the top of the roof, and the deputy sheriff said, "I will get that for you." And he started up it.

The captain said words to the effect that, "Make sure you don't overlook him in there." So we went back inside and we didn't find him in the balcony. We started downstairs and these would have been the west stairs on the west side of the balcony. About the time I got to the lower floor, I heard a shout similar to a "I've got him," which came from the lower floor. And I ran through the west door from the lobby into the downstairs part of the theatre proper.

Mr. Belin. Let me stop you right there. When you say it is the west door, as I remember this theatre, the entrance faces to the south, is that correct?

Mr. Hill. Right.

Mr. Belin. But then when you walked in, you walked in straight headed north, and then you had to turn to the right?

Mr. Hill. So once you turned, I went up. That would have made me come down the north, go up the south stairway to the balcony, and come down the north stairway.

Mr. Belin. All right. Now, you got down to the first floor. As you go in to face the screen, the right side of the theatre when you are facing the screen, you are facing roughly east?

Mr. Hill. Right side of the theatre would have been south.

50 Mr. Belin. South as you face the screen. All right, now.

Mr. Hill. So I went through the north lower door.

Mr. Belin. All right.

Mr. Hill. Came down the north stairway, and the commotion would have been to my right or just south of the center of the theatre near the back. Went over, and as I ran to them I saw some officers struggling with a white male.

I reached out and grabbed the left arm of the suspect, and just before I got to him I heard somebody yell, "Look out, he's got a gun."

I was on the same row with the suspect. The man on the row immediately behind him was an officer named Hutson. McDonald was on the other side of the suspect from me in the same aisle.

Two officers, C. T. Walker and Ray Hawkins, were in the row in front of us holding the suspect from the front and forcing him backwards and down into the seat. And to McDonald's right reaching over, and I don't recall which row he was on, was an officer named Bob Carroll. And then Paul Bentley and K. E. Lyons, who was Carroll's partner, they were both in the special service bureau, also was there. They came up at various intervals while all this was going on.

We finally got the man subdued to the point where we had control of him and his legs pinned and his arms pinned. I said, "Let's handcuff him." And being that I was working in plainclothes and working in personnel, didn't have a pair of handcuffs, and I asked Hawkins if he had. And he said, "Yes."

And I said, "Let's get them."

And Hawkins and I handcuffed him while the others held him.

Mr. Belin. You said you were working in plainclothes?

Mr. Hill. Yes.

Mr. Belin. Did you have any hat on?

Mr. Hill. Yes; I did have a hat.

Mr. Belin. I want to hand you what I will mark as G. L. Hill Deposition Exhibit A, and ask you to state if you know what this is.

Mr. Hill. Yes, sir; this is a picture that was made about the time when we were actually putting the handcuffs on the suspect in the theatre. That may have been a split second before or a split second after, or right as we completed the putting on of the handcuffs.

Mr. Belin. Do you recognize any people in there?

Mr. Hill. This would have been the suspect [pointing].

Mr. Belin. Now, the suspect is a man who you can see parts of the profile from the left side of his face. He appears to be seated or lower than the others?

Mr. Hill. Lower than the other people in the picture.

Mr. Belin. Then there is a person with a hat on to the right.

Mr. Hill. To the immediate right of the suspect, and that is me.

Mr. Belin. Then there is a man with a cigar who is looking over the suspect?

Mr. Hill. That is Detective Paul Bentley.

Mr. Belin. Now there is a person with light-colored hair that appears to have his hands——

Mr. Hill. That would be C. T. Walker.

Mr. Belin. Then there is another person that is in the extreme left-foreground part of the picture. Do you know who that is?

Mr. Hill. Capt. W. R. Westbrook.

Mr. Belin. Then a party with a hat on. Do you know who that is?

Mr. Hill. I have no idea.

Mr. Belin. That is to the left?

Mr. Hill. No, sir.

Mr. Belin. Then there is, you can barely see maybe a police hat. Is that anything you can recognize?

Mr. Hill. Not from that; no, sir.

Mr. Belin. All right, go ahead, sir.

You say that you and Ray Hawkins handcuffed the suspect?

Mr. Hill. At about this time Captain Westbrook and a man who was later in the day identified to me as, I believe his name was Barnett, an FBI agent——

51 Mr. Belin. Would it be Barrett?

Mr. Hill. Yes.

Mr. Belin. Do you remember his first name?

Mr. Hill. Bob was identified to me later in the day by Captain Westbrook. Came in from, I presume they came in from the north fire exit, which would have actually been coming in from outside, and came over to us, and Captain Westbrook instructed us to get the man out of there as soon as possible.

And at the same time instructed some of the other uniform officers to stay there and protect the scene, and call the crime lab. This was the actual scene where the arrest was made.

Mr. Belin. Let me stop you right there. Do you know how this FBI agent happened to be there at the time?

Mr. Hill. I heard later, and—but not actually to my own knowledge, that he was riding with Captain Westbrook.

To my knowledge, I don't know this, but I understand he had ridden out from town with Captain Westbrook, that he was gravitating toward the incident in Oak Cliff, and had arrived at the theatre just possibly before we came in, or right after we went in, and was still outside.

Mr. Belin. All right.

Mr. Hill. We started moving the suspect down the aisle, which would have been walking him north to the exit on that side until we got to the aisle that would have been dividing the center section and the north section of the theatre.

And there we formed a more or less wedge formation with C. T. Walker in front, Bob Carroll, I believe was on the suspect's left, K. E. Lyons was on his right, and Paul Bentley and I were to the rear.

I was on the left. I would have been to the suspect's left-rear side.

Paul Bentley would have been to the right-rear side.

At this point this is the first time I remember encountering any newspapermen or cameras, but as we walked into the lobby there was a man shooting movies.

Mr. Belin. Movies?

Mr. Hill. He was from channel 8, but who he was, I don't know. He was a short, rather heavy-set fellow with kinky hair. This I remember about him.

We walked the suspect out the right front or the north door. No, wait a minute, we have lost our directions again. We walked him out the west door of the theatre into a squad car, which was out front. Some of the officers that were still outside had the crowd parted back to where nobody got to us or to the suspect.

But there were shouts at this time from the crowd of, "That is him. We ought to kill him. String him up. Hang him.", et cetera and so on.

Mr. Belin. Any other calls from the crowd?

Mr. Hill. Not that I can recall. There was quite a bit of confusion, but we kept moving.

Mr. Belin. Let me stop you right there. You mentioned that when you were coming down from the balcony to the first floor, or in the process of going into the first floor, you heard an officer or someone yell something along the effect, "I've got him."

Mr. Hill. Right.

Mr. Belin. Did you hear anyone else yell or make any other statements?

First, I will ask you this. Did you hear the suspect make any statement of any kind?

Mr. Hill. Not any distinguishable statement that I can specifically recall. Later in the course of trying to piece this thing together for a report, I believe it was McDonald and Hutson that stated, and we put it in the report that way, that the suspect yelled, "This is it."

Mr. Belin. Did you hear that with your own ears? That you can remember?

Mr. Hill. No, sir; not as a distinguishable specific "This is it," no.

As much confusion and all going on, I didn't distinguish that. Now if we can back up a little bit to where we made the, got him handcuffed in the theatre, before we started moving out with him, he started, Oswald or the suspect at this point, we didn't know who he was, so we will keep on calling him the suspect,52 started making statements about "I want a lawyer. I know my rights. Typical police brutality. Why are you doing this to me."

As as we continued to move him down the aisle out to the aisle dividing the two sections, out into the lobby of the theatre, he began yelling words similar to, "Typical police brutality."

And once we got actually outside the door of the theatre, from there to the period of time that we got to the car, with all the crowd and commotion and all, I don't recall any further statements of his until we got in the car.

Mr. Belin. All right, let me stop there before you testify about getting into the car. Do you have anything else to add to the statement prior to getting into the car?

Mr. Hill. Not that I can recall.

Mr. Belin. Did you hear the suspect say anything while you were trying to subdue him, or, "I am not resisting arrest?"

Mr. Hill. No; I don't recall a statement to that effect.

Mr. Belin. Did you hear any officer say anything to the suspect?

Mr. Hill. About the time we got him subdued and handcuffed, I know that Hutson asked me about did I hear the gun click.

Hutson was the one that was behind him and was pulling him backward, off balance. He was probably, as near as I could determine from the position, was probably the second officer to him.

In other words, McDonald made the initial contact, and then Hutson and then probably Walker and Hawkins with Walker, and then Hawkins, in that order, getting into the scuffle attempting to subdue him and keep him from using the gun.

Mr. Belin. What did you reply to this question?

Mr. Hill. I told him no. Because apparently this had happened in the interim from the time of the first yell until I got there, and with the scuffling of feet, unless you would be right at it, I don't know that you would hear it.

Mr. Belin. Did you hit the suspect at all?

Mr. Hill. No; I did not.

Mr. Belin. Did anyone else hit the suspect?

Mr. Hill. No one that I know of. When we got him subdued, he had a small laceration on the left eyebrow, and what appeared to be a bruise on the upper-left eyebrow and down along his check, but an actual lick, to see this done, I did not see.

Mr. Belin. Did you hear any police officer make any remark such as "Kill a policeman, will you," or something along that line?

Mr. Hill. No, sir; not at this point I didn't. There was a—you want——

Mr. Belin. Let's stop there before we get in the car.

Mr. Hill. There were some statements made in the car similar to this, in talking about killing a policeman, but I didn't hear any at the time in the theatre or from the theatre to the car.

Mr. Belin. I want to try to cut off this thing in segments. Did you hear any policeman make any other statements to him during this scuffle?

Mr. Hill. No; everybody was saying, "Look out," and "Get this arm," or "Watch that leg," or "Make sure you've got a good hold on him."

But as far as any direct quotes to the suspect, or him being called anything such as a cop killer or statements that you have killed a police officer, you have killed a cop, or anything of that type, I did not hear any.

Mr. Belin. Did you see the suspect hitting any police officer?

Mr. Hill. Did I see the suspect hitting a police officer?

Mr. Belin. Yes.

Mr. Hill. No, sir; I did not. I saw his left arm flying about wildly about the time when I got there. That is what I latched on to, but I didn't actually identify any direct blows.

Mr. Belin. Did you see any movements of the suspect other than the left arm flailing?

Mr. Hill. He was fighting and turning and making an attempt to free himself of the hold that the officers had on him. As to actually hitting anybody or to actually seeing the suspect with a gun in his hand, I did not.

53 Mr. Belin. I hand you what has been marked as "G. L. Hill Deposition Exhibit B." State if you know what this is.

Mr. Hill. This is known to be a picture that was made still inside the theatre as we were moving down the aisle, I believe, to get him to the aisle that divided the two sections.

Now specifically, the exact point in the theatre where this was made, I don't know.

Mr. Belin. Do you recognize anything?

Mr. Hill. There are three people in this picture that I recognize. The officer with the white uniform hat on that is in the foreground looking at the picture, would be to the left side, is C. T. Walker. The suspect, and what is an open collar, and what appears to be a T-shirt from here, looking almost directly at the camera with his face practically covered by the officer's cap, is a man later identified to us as Lee Harvey Oswald.

And the man in the suit looking at the camera with a cigar in his mouth is Detective Paul Bentley.

There is, to Mr. Bentley's left, part of another officer that is apparently wearing a suit with only part of his suit and his shirt and his left hand showing. That cannot be recognized, but I will have to admit I think it is me.

And there is a faint image there, if you get the light—that is what I am trying to see—very faintly—if we had a—yes, that is going to be me. What we need is to get the light in at an angle.

Mr. Belin. If you hold it a little bit to your right?

Mr. Hill. Yes; that is going to be me.

Mr. Belin. Do you know who this person is with the helmet at the extreme left of the person with the helmet?

Mr. Hill. I do not recognize him specifically, but just trying to identify that much of him, I would say it could be an officer named L. E. Gray, but I can't make positive identification.

Mr. Belin. Okay, sergeant.

By the way, what is the suspect wearing? You mentioned a T-shirt in the picture.

Do you remember what else he had on?

Mr. Hill. He had on a dark—I don't recall it being a solid brown—shirt, but it was a dark-brownish-looking sports shirt, and dark trousers. This I specifically remember.

Mr. Belin. Any jacket?

Mr. Hill. No, sir; he didn't have a jacket on at this time.

Mr. Belin. All right, go ahead.

Mr. Hill. I understand a light-colored jacket was found in the parking lot of the funeral home, as a man had previously stated, but I don't recall actually seeing this jacket.

Mr. Belin. All right, anything else that anyone else said prior to the time you got to the car?

Mr. Hill. Not that I can recall, sir; other than, as I was saying, as we went out, the crowd was jeering, making some threats and calling out things.

If at this time the suspect said anything, I didn't hear him.

And we were moving quite rapidly to get him into the car.

Mr. Belin. Handing you what has been marked "G. L. Hill Exhibit C," I will ask you to state if you know what this is?

Mr. Hill. This is a picture of the Texas Theatre on West Jefferson, and it is a picture that I believe was made after we left the location with the suspect.

Mr. Belin. Why do you say that?

Mr. Hill. Because the car that we left with the suspect in was parked right here.

Mr. Belin. You are pointing to a position ahead of the Dallas Police Car No. 151, which appears in the picture?

Mr. Hill. That's right.

Mr. Belin. Would that be about the size of the crowd that was there, as you remember it?

Mr. Hill. The crowd was split up into two groups at that time, on each side of the theatre entrance.

54 Mr. Belin. You mean by the time you brought the suspect out?

Mr. Hill. Yes; the area immediately in front of the theatre looking to the car was open at the time.

Mr. Belin. Who opened it?

Mr. Hill. The crowd had been kept back by some officers who had been left outside to cover off the front of the theatre when the rest of us entered.

Mr. Belin. Apart from the fact that the crowd was split when you led the suspect out, does this appear to be about the number of people there?

Mr. Hill. No, sir. I would say probably this picture appears to me to contain 75 to 100 people, and I would say probably at the time that we came out of the theatre, by just glancing on both sides as we moved between the two groups to the car, I would estimate the crowd was probably about 200.

Mr. Belin. All right; anything else up to the time you got to the car that anyone said or did that you haven't related, that you can remember now?

Mr. Hill. Not that I can recall, sir.

Mr. Belin. All right; now, let's pick up what happened from the time you started, with the time you opened the doors of the car to put the suspect in the car.

Mr. Hill. Officer Bentley—the suspect was put in the right rear door of the squad car and was instructed to move over to the middle. C. T. Walker got into the rear seat and would have been sitting on the right rear.

Paul Bentley went around the car and got in the left rear door and sat on that side.

Mr. Belin. That would have been from the left to the right, Bentley, Oswald, and Walker? Or Bentley, the suspect, and Walker?

Mr. Hill. K. E. Lyons got in the right front. I entered the door from the driver's side and got in the middle of the front seat.

Mr. Belin. And being that he had the keys to the car, Bob Carroll drove the vehicle.

Mr. Hill. As he started to get in the car, he handed me a pistol, which he identified as the one that had been taken from the suspect in the theatre.

Mr. Belin. When did he identify this to you?

Mr. Hill. I asked him was this his. He said, "No, it is the suspect's"

Mr. Belin. When did he do that?

Mr. Hill. As soon as he handed it to me.

Mr. Belin. When was that?

Mr. Hill. Right as I sat down in the car, he apparently had it in his belt, and as he started to sit down, he handed it to me. I was already in the car and seated.

Mr. Belin. Now I am going to hand you what has been marked Commission Exhibit 143. Would you state if you know what this is?

Mr. Hill. This is a .38 caliber revolver. Smith & Wesson, with a 2" barrel that would contain six shells. It is an older gun that has been blue steeled, and has a worn wooden handle.

Mr. Belin. Have you ever seen this gun before?

Mr. Hill. I am trying to see my mark on it to make sure, sir. I don't recall specifically where I marked it, but I did mark it, if this is the one. I don't remember where I did mark it, now.

Here it is, Hill right here, right in this crack.

Mr. Belin. Officer, you have just pointed out a place which I will identify as a metal portion running along the butt of the gun. Can you describe it any more fully?

Mr. Hill. It would be to the inside of the pistol grip holding the gun in the air. It would begin under the trigger guard to where the last name H-i-l-l is scratched in the metal.

Mr. Belin. Who put that name in there?

Mr. Hill. I did.

Mr. Belin. When did you do that?

Mr. Hill. This was done at approximately 4 p.m., the afternoon of Friday, November 22, 1963, in the personnel office of the police department.

Mr. Belin. Did you keep that gun in your possession until you scratched your name on it?

55 Mr. Hill. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. Belin. Was this gun the gun that Officer Carroll handed to you?

Mr. Hill. And identified to me as the suspect's weapon.

Mr. Belin. This is what has now been marked as Commission Exhibit 143, is that correct?

Mr. Hill. Yes, sir; that is what it says.

Mr. Belin. It also says the number on this sack in kind of a red ink or something "C15" on it, too, is that right?

Mr. Hill. It has C15, and on the other side it has 176-G, whatever that is.

Mr. Belin. And then we have marked Commission Exhibit 143?

Mr. Hill. Right.

Mr. Belin. Now, you said as the driver of the car, Bob Carroll, got in the car, he handed this gun to you?

Mr. Hill. Right, sir.

Mr. Belin. All right, then, would you tell us what happened? What was said and what was done?

Mr. Hill. Then I broke the gun open to see how many shells it contained and how many live rounds it had in it.

Mr. Belin. How many did you find?

Mr. Hill. There were six in the chambers of the gun. One of them had an indention in the primer that appeared to be caused by the hammer. There were five others. All of the shells at this time had indentions.

All of the shells appeared to have at one time or another scotch tape on them because in an area that would have been the width of a half inch strip of scotch tape, there was kind of a bit of lint and residue on the jacket of the shell.

Mr. Belin. Did you ever mark those?

Mr. Hill. I can say that I marked all six of them.

Mr. Belin. I am first going to hand you what has been marked Q-178 on the lead portion. It is 178 or 170. It appears to be Q-178, with the initials JH running together and CK, and then another initial R, with a dash behind it.

Do you see any identification mark of yours on there at all?

Mr. Hill. Yes, sir; on the side of the jacket of the bullet there is the name scratched H-i-l-l, and also the initials BC. I scratched the H-i-l-l on this shell, and Bob Carroll scratched the BC on it in my presence in the personnel office of the police department on the third floor.

Mr. Belin. What is that?

Mr. Hill. This is one of the shells which is a .38 special shell that was removed from the suspect's weapon, removed from the weapon that was taken from the suspect at the time of his arrest.

Mr. Belin. When was it removed?

Mr. Hill. They were not taken out of the gun, as I recall, sir, until we arrived at the station.

Mr. Belin. Who took it out of the gun?

Mr. Hill. I took it out of the gun.

Mr. Belin. Did you keep it in your possession until you put on your initials?

Mr. Hill. All six shells remained in my possession until I initialed them.

Mr. Belin. Was this an empty shell or live bullet?

Mr. Hill. That is a live round.

Mr. Belin. For what caliber?

Mr. Hill. A .38 caliber.

Mr. Belin. I am going to hand you another bullet which has been marked Q-177.

Mr. Hill. That appears to be Q-177.

It's also on the what appears to be the copper tip has the initial JH running together, the initials CK on it also.

It is a Western .38 special bullet. It has not been fired. It is a copper-colored slug. On the case of this shell is also the name H-i-l-l, which was placed there on November 22.

Mr. Belin. Let the record show that I believe that these are Exhibit 145, but I am not sure. I mean Commission Exhibit 145, and therefore, I identified them by the "Q" number which is on the bullet itself.

56 Was this also something that you took out?

Mr. Hill. This would have been another of the shells, and the gun.

Mr. Belin. I hand you four more bullets which have been marked as, I believe they are Commission Exhibit 518, but again I will withhold that identification.

I see the markings on this—let me see if I can see some "Q" numbers.

I see one Q-79. Do you see that, sergeant?

Mr. Hill. Now that I know where to look, I can find it. It is going to be Q-79.

It has the initials CK. That is distinguishable on it. It has two X's near the identification number that are legible.

And it has other markings that is R something or "R-" that is apparently on some of the others.

Mr. Belin. Do you see your name on that?

Mr. Hill. My name is also on this, on the metal jacket portion of the shell.

Mr. Belin. What kind of bullet is that?

Mr. Hill. This is another Western .38 special with a copper-colored coating on the lead inside the bullet.

Mr. Belin. Handing you Q-78.

Mr. Hill. This is a .38 caliber Western shell with the identification mark Q-78, with the other markings of JH and CK on it, and also on the shell casing near the rear of the bullet is the name H-i-l-l, with which I marked it.

Mr. Belin. Handing you Q-80.

Mr. Hill. Okay. This is an R.-P. .38 shell with the identification number Q-80.

The initials CK and JH near the "Q" number on the jacket of this one. Also is the name H-i-l-l scratched into the metal, which I placed on it. And this one also is a plain lead shell.

Mr. Belin. Handing you Q-81, do you see Q-81, on there?

Mr. Hill. This is an R and P shell with the identification number Q-81, with the initials CK and JH scratched near the "Q" number.

On the side of this shell also is the word H-i-l-l, which was placed on this shell by me.

This is a .38 lead slug.

Mr. Belin. What is the fact as to whether or not all of these slugs were removed from this gun which has been marked as Exhibit 143?

What is the fact as to whether or not all of those six were removed?

Mr. Hill. All six of the slugs that were identified immediately previous to this point were removed from the gun, identified as Commission Exhibit 143, by me.

Mr. Belin. What is the fact as to whether or not from the time this gun was handed to you until the time you removed these six bullets, this gun was in your possession?

Mr. Hill. The gun remained in my possession until it, from the time it was given to me until the gun was marked and all the shells were marked. They remained in my personal possession. After they were marked, they were released by me to Detective T. L. Baker of the homicide bureau. He came to the personnel office and requested that they be given to him, and I marked them and turned them over to him at this point.

Mr. Belin. All right, now, I want to return to the car, Sergeant Hill.

You stated that this gun was handed to you by——

Mr. Hill. Detective Bob Carroll.

Mr. Belin. Detective Bob Carroll when he got in?

Mr. Hill. Yes.

Mr. Belin. All right.

After he handed you—handed the gun to you, will you tell us what happened inside the car, or whether anyone made any remarks? And if you can, what happened in the car?

Mr. Hill. We mostly got the car in motion, traveled to the first corner where we could make a right turn, made a right turn, traveled one block, made another right turn, continued down this street, and at this point we would have been going east until we reached Zangs Boulevard, and turned left onto Zangs.

57 Within, I would say seconds—this is just a guess—after we got in the car, I picked up the radio and used the call number 550, car 2, which No. 550 is the number assigned to the personnel office, and because I knew the captain was out in the field and he would be using 550, if he got on the radio.

I used call 550, car 2, and made the statement, "We have suspect and weapon and are en route to the station."

Mr. Belin. Now I want to hand you what has been marked Sawyer Deposition Exhibit A, which is the transcript of the police log, and I notice that at 1:52 p.m., there was a 550-2-531, with the notation, "Suspect on shooting of police officer is apprehended en route to the station." Was that——

Mr. Hill. Well, that would have generally been—that would have been——

Mr. Belin. Would have been you?

Mr. Hill. That would have been me.

Mr. Belin. It is marked "Westbrook-Batchelor." Is that because of the No. 2 on it?

Mr. Hill. Yes.

Possibly Batchelor's call is 2, and Westbrook's is 550, so apparently they showed Westbrook was talking to Chief Batchelor, which at this point——

Mr. Belin. Someone else put this handwriting in. That is, "Westbrook-Batchelor," but is that the time that you called in?

Mr. Hill. Yes, sir; I don't remember the exact words, but I did get on the radio as soon as we got to the car and it got moving, notifying that we were en route to the station with the suspect. That would have been possibly right.

Mr. Belin. It goes on to say, "From the Texas Theatre."

And, "caught him on the lower floor of the Texas Theatre after a fight."

Did you say that?

Mr. Hill. This would have been the dispatcher to me asking the question did we have him in the Texas Theatre. Was that where we arrested him?

Mr. Belin. That is 531-550-2?

Mr. Hill. In other words, it is dispatcher to 550 car 2.

Mr. Belin. All right.

Mr. Hill. And he was finding out for sure if we had arrested him at the theatre.

Mr. Belin. Then it goes to 550.

Mr. Hill. Car 2 would have been my answer to the dispatcher.

Mr. Belin. It says, "Caught him on the lower floor of the Texas Theatre after a fight." And then 531-2-3.

Mr. Hill. That would have been the dispatcher talking to——

Mr. Belin. Someone?

Mr. Hill. Chief Batchelor and Chief Stevenson.

Mr. Belin. Two and three?

Mr. Hill. Then 531 again would have been the dispatcher advising 305, which is a homicide unit that the apprehension had been made.

And then the 550 car 2, to 531 would have been me telling him that we had 223, who was Walker—that is Walker's call number, and 492, which was Carroll, and Lyons' call number in the car with me.

And we later had to make arrangements for somebody to go back and pick up 223 car and take it back.

Mr. Belin. That last call then was made at 1:53 p.m., in which you advised who was in the car?

Mr. Hill. With us en route to the station.

Mr. Belin. And the first one that you made after you got to the car was at 1:52 p.m.?

Mr Hill. Yes, sir.

Mr. Belin. Now, also turning to Sawyer Deposition Exhibit A, I notice that there is another call on car No. 550-2. Was that you at that time, or not, at 1:40 p.m.?

Would that have been someone else?

Mr. Hill. That probably is R. D. Stringer.

Mr. Belin. That is not you, then, even though it has a number 550-2?

Mr. Hill. Yes; because Stringer quite probably would have been using the same call number, because it is more his than it was mine, really, but I didn't58 have an assigned call number, so I was using a number I didn't think anybody would be using, which is call 550-2, instead of the Westbrook to Batchelor as it indicates here.

Mr. Belin. Now after, from the time you started in motion until the time you called in, do you remember anyone saying anything at all in the car?

Mr. Hill. The suspect was asked what his name was.

Mr. Belin. What did he say?

Mr. Hill. He never did answer. He just sat there.

Mr. Belin. Was he asked where he lived?

Mr. Hill. That was the second question that was asked the suspect, and he didn't answer it, either.

About the time I got through with the radio transmission, I asked Paul Bentley, "Why don't you see if he has any identification."

Paul was sitting sort of sideways in the seat, and with his right hand he reached down and felt of the suspect's left hip pocket and said, "Yes, he has a billfold," and took it out.

I never did have the billfold in my possession, but the name Lee Oswald was called out by Bentley from the back seat, and said this identification, I believe, was on the library card.

And he also made the statement that there was some more identification in this other name which I don't remember, but it was the same name that later came in the paper that he bought the gun under.

Mr. Belin. Would the name Hidell mean anything? Alek Hidell?

Mr. Hill. That would be similar. I couldn't say specifically that is what it was, because this was a conversation and I never did see it written down, but that sounds like the name that I heard.

Mr. Belin. Was this the first time you learned of the name?

Mr. Hill. Yes; it was.

Mr. Belin. All right; when did you learn of his address?

Mr. Hill. There were two different addresses on the identification.

One of them was in Oak Cliff. The other one was in Irving. But as near as I can recall of the conversation in the car, this was strictly conversation, because I didn't read any of the stuff. It didn't have an address on Beckley, that I recall hearing.

Mr. Belin. Let me ask you this. Now from the time you got in the car to the time you got to the station, I believe you said that at least the second question asked was where do you live, and the man didn't answer?

Mr. Hill. The man didn't answer.

Mr. Belin. Was he ever asked again where he lived, up to the time you got to the station?

Mr. Hill. No; I don't believe so, because when Bentley got the identification out, we had two different addresses. We had two different names, and the comment was made, "I guess we are going to have to wait until we get to the station to find out who he actually is."

After about the time Bentley reached in his pocket and got his billfold, the suspect made the statement, "I don't know why you are treating me like this. The only thing I have done is carry a pistol in a movie."

Then there was a remark made something to the effect, "Yes, sir; you have done a lot more. You have killed a policeman."

And then the suspect made a remark similar to "Well, you fry for that," or something to that effect.

Mr. Belin. Something to what effect?

Mr. Hill. Well, now, he either made the statement, "You only fry for that," or "You can fry for that," or a similar statement. Now the exact words of it, I don't recall.

Mr. Belin. All right; then what was said?

Mr. Hill. Some more questions were asked as to where he had been prior to going to the movie, which he did not answer. Some more questions were asked as to what was his true name, and in neither case did he ever answer them. He did make a comment, if I recall, about the handcuffs, about, "I don't see why you handcuffed me." And here again he repeated the statement, "The only crime I have committed was carrying a pistol in a movie."

59 We got the suspect to the city hall as rapidly as possible without using the siren and red light, but we took advantage of every open spot we had to make a little speed, and we explained to him this—I did, before we got into the basement, that there would probably be some reporters and photographers and cameramen waiting in the basement when we got to the station, and that if he so desired, we would hold him in a way that he could hide his face if he wanted to, and also told him he did not have to speak to the press if he didn't want to.

He didn't comment on this at this point, but as we pulled into the basement from the Main Street side, we were wanting to get out and get organized enough that we would set up our wedge again to get him in the station through the basement, and so we pulled over to what would have been the southeast side of the basement, got out of the car, and formed a wedge in the same position that we left the theatre, and told the suspect again he could hide his face if he wanted to.

And he said, "Why should I hide my face. I haven't done anything to be ashamed of."

And with that we started walking him up the aisle of the basement and walked him through the door into the basement of the city hall proper, put him on the elevator, stayed on the elevator with him, put him back behind the wall, and sort of formed a wall around him.

Some of the press pushed into the elevator with us.

Got him out on the third floor, walked him into the homicide and robbery office, placed him in the first interrogation room inside the homicide and robbery office, and left Officer Walker there with him.

At this point I stood in the door of the, or at the door of the room he was in.

Reporters wanted to see the pistol. I held it up to them but never relinquished control of it. I asked Baker at this time, who was Detective T. L. Baker, if he wanted the pistol, and he said, "No; hold on to it until later."

I explained to him that this was the suspect on Tippit and did he want us to make up the arrest sheet, or would they make them up.

We were trying to get together to decide who was going to make the offense report and get all the little technicalities out of the way when a detective named Richard Stovall and another one, G. F. Rose, came up, and the four of us were standing when Captain Fritz walked in.

He walked up to Rose and Stovall and made the statement to them, "Go get a search warrant and go out to some address on Fifth Street," and I don't recall the actual street number, in Irving, and "pick up a man named Lee Oswald."

And I asked the captain why he wanted him, and he said, "Well, he was employed down at the Book Depository and he had not been present for a roll call of the employees."

And we said, "Captain, we will save you a trip," or words to that effect, "Because there he sits."

And with that, we relinquished our prisoner to the homicide and robbery bureau, to Captain Fritz.

Walker, Bentley, Lyons, Carroll, and I knew that the prisoner had received a laceration and bruises while effecting his arrest, and that an officer had been scratched while effecting the arrest, and that Bentley had sprained an ankle, and Lyons had sprained an ankle while effecting the arrest—they were fixing to have to make a whole bushel basket of reports—we adjourned to the personnel office, which was further down the hall from homicide and I sat down and started to try to organize the first report on the arrest.

I originally had the heading on it, "Injuries sustained by suspect while effecting his arrest in connection with the murder of Officer J. D. Tippit," and a few minutes later Captain Westbrook came in the office and said that our suspect had admitted being a Communist. This is strictly hearsay. I did not hear it myself.

He himself also said a few minutes later he had previously been in the Marine Corps, had a dishonorable discharge, had been to Russia, and had had some trouble with the police in New Orleans for passing out pro-Castro literature.

This still is all hearsay because I didn't actually hear it firsthand myself.60 And at about this point Captain Westbrook suggested that I change the heading of my report to include arrest of the suspect in the assassination of the President and in the murder of Officer J. D. Tippit, which I did.

I originally wrote the report for Bob Carroll's signature and for my signature, and left it with the captain to be typed while we moved over in another office to get a cup of coffee and sort of calm down and recap the events.

By then McDonald was there, and we had added some information that he could give us such as the information about "This is it." Which the suspect allegedly said as he came into contact with him.

The exact location of the officers and who was there on the original arrest and everything, and we were waiting around for the secretary to finish the report.

When we got it back ready to sign, Carroll and I were sitting there, and it had Captain Westbrook's name for signature, and added a paragraph about he and the FBI agent being there, and not seeing that it made any difference, I went ahead and signed the report.

Actually, they were there, but I didn't make any corrections.

And as far as the report, didn't allege what they did, but had added a paragraph to our report to include the fact that he was there, and also that the FBI agent was there.

Now as to why this was done, your guess is as good as mine.

Mr. Belin. Were they there at the time?

Mr. Hill. They were there. They got there inside where we were about the time he was being handcuffed.

Mr. Belin. All right, let me go back a minute now.

You left the suspect in the custody of homicide?

Mr. Hill. Right.

Mr. Belin. In what office was he left?

Mr. Hill. He was still in the interrogation room and still in the homicide and robbery bureau office.

Mr. Belin. Who was in there with him when you left?

Mr. Hill. When I left the office, Captain Fritz, who was the commander of the bureau was there, and I had assumed, being that he was the officer in charge, the highest ranking man there, and it was his bureau and his office, theoretically he was in possession of the prisoner.

However, now as to specifically who went in and took him out of the interrogation room and took him to the captain's office, I don't know.

Mr. Belin. Was Captain Fritz in the interrogation office?

Mr. Hill. Captain Fritz was in the hall. There was a little small hallway to the door here, and there is a hallway just big enough to pass through. The suspect was in the interrogation room and Captain Fritz immediately in front of him.

Mr. Belin. Was anyone else in the interrogation room when you left?

Mr. Hill. No; Walker was, and when we turned him over to homicide, Walker came out and Fritz and his people had control of the prisoner.

Mr. Belin. So when you and Walker left, the nearest office to him was Fritz'?

Mr. Hill. As far as I know; yes, sir.

Mr. Belin. At any time up to the time you left, did you ever get any address on the suspect as to where he lived other than the statement of Captain Fritz that he had this address on Fifth Street somewhere in Irving?

Mr. Hill. Paul Bentley called off two addresses. One, as I recall, in Irving, and another one in Oak Cliff, when he was reading from information inside the suspect's billfold. But neither of these addresses was an address on 10th or on Beckley.

As to exactly what they were, I don't recall, as I didn't see the identification.

Mr. Belin. Would one of them have been an address on Neely Street?

Mr. Hill. It very possibly could be. In fact I believe it was.

Mr. Belin. To the best of your knowledge, did anyone in the car in which you were riding down to the police station ever mention any Beckley Street address for the suspect?

Mr. Hill. No.

61 Mr. Belin. To the best of your knowledge, when the suspect was brought into the police station, up to the time you left him with Captain Fritz there, had anyone mentioned a Beckley Street address?

Mr. Hill. No.

Mr. Belin. What else did the suspect say, if anything?

Mr. Hill. Other than the statement he made about brutality in the theatre, and other than the statements he made in the car about "Why are you treating me this way? The only thing I have done is carry a gun," and "Why are you handcuffing me, the only thing I have done is carry a gun," and when the comment was made about something of killing an officer, and he said something to the extent that you can only fry for that, and the man showed absolutely no emotion.

He gave the appearance of being arrogant, and yet he didn't make boastful statements. He was silent almost the entire time he was in the car except for the flareup of the brutality in the theatre, and the two statements or the three statements that he made in the car. He was silent almost the entire time until we got to the basement when he made the statement that he didn't know why he should hide his face, he didn't have anything to be ashamed of.

Mr. Belin. When the comment was made about frying, did any police officer in the car say in substance, "Maybe you will find out," or something like that?

Do you remember anything like that being said?

Mr. Hill. There was probably a sarcastic remark to that made, but as to the exact words of it, "You will find out," or "You will get a chance to find out," but I am sure there was an answer to his question, and I don't recall who said it.

But as near as I can remember, it came from the back seat.

Mr. Belin. Was there any reply by the suspect along the lines of "Well, I understand it only takes a minute," or something like that?

Did you hear him say anything like that?

Mr. Hill. I don't recall that statement. It could have been made, because there were about half a dozen conversations actually going on in the car.

At one point after I opened the pistol, and I did open it in the car, and found that one of the slugs or one of the shells did have an indention to the primer that could have been caused by the hammer, we made a comment that he tried or he did pull the trigger, and this was in line with what Hutson had asked me, in the theatre, had I heard the gun click.

Mr. Belin. Anything else that happened in the car?

Mr. Hill. Not that I can recall of specific detail.

There was quite a bit of excitement.

Everybody had been in the little scuffle and were huffing and puffing, and especially me, as fat as I am, but there weren't any, I don't recall any more direct statements. There was nothing ever said in the car that I can recall that would have put it at this time. We didn't have enough to be sure that maybe the two were tied together.

Mr. Belin. Anything else about the demeanor of the witness at all?

Mr. Hill. Other than as I said, he gave the appearance of arrogance, but yet he did not talk boastfully. In fact, he talked very little. This was one of the things that stuck out most about him in my mind, was how quiet he did keep.

His commenting or relating the statement that the only crime he had committed was carrying a gun in the theatre, and the refusal to answer questions as to what his name was and where he lived, this is not unusual immediately after an arrest, because when a man is arrested, he is keyed up too, and probably thinks that the best thing that they can do is keep their mouth shut, and he had previously in the theatre said he wanted his attorney.

Mr. Belin. He had said this in the theatre?

Mr. Hill. Yes; when we arrested him, he wanted his lawyer. He knew his rights.

Mr. Belin. Did he ever say he requested an attorney on the way down to the police station?

Mr. Hill. I do not recall.

I was going to say that by making the statement earlier, it is possible, it is a62 possibility that he decided the best thing to do was keep his mouth shut; that is a supposition on my part, and I couldn't prove it as to the reason he didn't say any more on the way to the police station.

Mr. Belin. Where did the police get ahold of his address on Beckley?

Mr. Hill. I don't know. This apparently came from homicide later, and once we turned him over to homicide, with the exception of seeing him walking down the hall again in front of several TV people later in the day, I had nothing else to do with the man. I never saw him again.

Mr. Belin. Sergeant Hill, from the time he was handcuffed until the time you turned him over to Captain Fritz, except for the moments that he was in the room with Officer Walker in the interrogation room, were you with the suspect at all times?

Mr. Hill. Yes; and I was also with him when I was standing in the doorway of the room when he was there, with Walker. The door was never closed.

Mr. Belin. The door was never closed?

Mr. Hill. No.

Mr. Belin. While you were standing in the doorway with Walker, did the man, suspect, say anything at all, or not?

Mr. Hill. Not that I recall, sir. At this time when I was in the doorway, I was talking to Baker and had my attention more on him and what he was saying, because at that point we were trying to decide if he wanted the gun, if we were going to make the offense, or homicide, or the officers that stayed out at the scene to wait for the crime lab. We were talking trying to get the paperwork straight.

Mr. Belin. How far was the suspect from you at this time?

Mr. Hill. Sitting across the table, about as wide as this, and maybe 2 more feet to the door.

Mr. Belin. About how far would that be?

Mr. Hill. About 6 feet.

Mr. Belin. How close was the other officer to you?

Mr. Hill. The other officer was at the end of the table here. He was probably 4 feet from me and 4 feet from the suspect.

Mr. Belin. Did you hear the other officer say anything to the suspect?

Mr. Hill. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. Belin. Did you hear the suspect say anything at all?

Mr. Hill. I didn't hear the suspect say anything at all. Other than the statement he made in the basement, I didn't hear him utter another word.

Mr. Belin. If the suspect had told anyone his address from the time he was apprehended until the time he was turned over to Captain Fritz, would you have been in a position to hear that statement made?

Mr. Hill. With my attention diverted talking to Baker, it is possible that he could have given his address to Walker without me hearing it, but I can't say for sure.

Mr. Belin. Apart from what he may have said to Walker, if there was anything else that he could have said except for during that period, would you have heard it if he said anything about living on North Beckley?

Mr. Hill. I am sure until the time that the suspect was turned over to Fritz, other than maybe a couple of words exchanged between Walker and the suspect while I was standing in the door talking to Baker, I am sure I would have heard it, and I never did hear the address North Beckley mentioned until much later in the day, and this was strictly hearsay, sir.

Mr. Belin. Well, did you hear any Beckley Street address mentioned?

Mr. Hill. I didn't hear anything on Beckley mentioned until probably 7 or 8 o'clock that night.

Mr. Belin. Did you talk to Walker after he left the interrogation room?

Mr. Hill. Talked to Walker after he left the interrogation room. He came into the personnel office with us, and we sat down and made sure that—we just talked over our story and made sure that we had all the details as to who was where in the arrest, what door the man came in into the theatre, where they were when the original contact was made, how Bentley hurt his foot, how Lyons hurt his foot, and all this, and decided, well, rather than have to get everybody back together and round them up and all six or seven people sign the one63 report, it was decided that Carroll and I would be the only two that signed it, and that Bentley would go on to the hospital and get his foot fixed, and Lyons would go to the hospital and get his foot fixed, and after McDonald finally got down there to the station and we sent him over to the city hall to get the scratch on his face treated, and then the rest of the time, with the exception of going across the hall for a cup of coffee, probably I didn't get out of the office to almost 5 o'clock.

Mr. Belin. Did Walker ever mention to you any conversation he had with Oswald in the interrogation room?

Mr. Hill. No, sir.

Mr. Belin. Did you and he discuss all the conversations that were had with the prisoner?

Mr. Hill. With the exception of getting some information from McDonald as to what Oswald actually said at the time of his contact with him in the theatre, the statement to the effect, "This is it," I figured that I had been in on the conversation when he was discussing the brutality and the statements he made in the car, and the statement he made in the basement when we were telling him he could duck his head if he wanted to, enough that I had all the information that I needed for the report, so I never did discuss any of the conversation that could possibly have taken place between Walker and the suspect in the interrogation room.

Mr. Belin. Over what period of time span would that have been that he was in the interrogation room and you were standing in the doorway there?

Mr. Hill. Probably 3 or 4 minutes.

Mr. Belin. Now, when you were going down to the station in the car, I believe the question was asked of the suspect to give his name and his address and he refused, is that correct?

Mr. Hill. He didn't answer either question. He didn't say, "I am not going to tell you anything." He just didn't answer, that is all.

Mr. Belin. But at least Officer Walker never told you that he finally answered that question, did he?

Mr. Hill. No.

Mr. Belin. Well, you had one report that you entitled "The arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald," which pertained to the Texas Theatre. Did you have any other report that you made at all, or not?

Mr. Hill. I had to make one later about a telephone call that I made from San Antonio to Dallas when we got the flash down there on Sunday morning that Oswald had been shot. I was attending a meeting down there.

Mr. Belin. Well, apart from that, anything?

Mr. Hill. Also, I made a statement to the FBI concerning the fact that I had known Jack Ruby prior to this thing. But as far an another report, other than the original report that afternoon on the arrest of the suspect, I don't recall writing any other report after that one report that was signed by Carroll and I and Captain Westbrook is the only one I wrote on the actual arrest.

Mr. Belin. I see one 2-page report that is signed by you.

Mr. Hill. Can I look at it?

Mr. Belin. You bet you can.

[Handing to witness.]

Mr. Hill. This was later when they wanted a report from each individual officer. Yes, sir; I did write this.

Mr. Belin. You are referring to a report dated what?

Mr. Hill. This would have been dated November 22, sir, and it is signed by Captain Westbrook and Bob Carroll and myself. I do not have it with me, but in case it is not in there, I have a carbon copy of it with all three signatures on it.

Mr. Belin. Did you have anything to do with either the assassination investigation or the Tippit investigation on Saturday, November 23?

Mr. Hill. No, sir; I was off that day.

And then on Sunday the 24th, I had flown out of Dallas that morning on a Braniff flight to San Antonio with a sergeant from Dallas and captain from Garland and captain from Denison to attend a state board meeting of the Texas Municipal Police Association in San Antonio at the International Building, and64 we took a coffee break somewhere around 11:30 or 12, I don't know the exact time.

Mr. Belin. When was the last time you saw Jack Ruby prior to the shooting of Oswald?

Mr. Hill. It was probably 6 to 8 weeks, and that was a contact that I was walking by a garage one night about the time he came down to get his car, and we talked for a minute and that is all.

Mr. Belin. Do you remember what you said or what he said at all, or not?

Mr. Hill. It just was a greeting. We hadn't seen each other in quite a while. In the interim, I had been on—normally when I was on a rotating schedule of working evenings and deep nights, the Carousel Club was located in the district that I worked quite often, and I would stop in there once in a while, and I had been on a special assignment for about 2 months working straight days, in town and out of town, and I hadn't been by or hadn't seen him, and this particular night we ran into each other, and he wanted to know what I was doing, and I told him I was working in personnel.

And he said, I haven't been much around much lately, and I said, "I am staying home."

Mr. Belin. When was the last time you saw him prior to that meeting?

Mr. Hill. Probably the last time, I was in his place on duty, maybe 3 or 4 weeks before this.

Mr. Belin. I wonder if you would describe the situation in the police department on the third floor with regard to reporters or what have you during the period of time that you brought Oswald in and during the rest of the time you might have been there on the afternoon of November 22?

What did you find when you got there?

Mr. Hill. There wasn't anybody except the ones that were down in the basement waiting for us to bring him in, and they were standing in the doorway, that if you turned to the right, you go in the jail office.

If you go straight, you go into the basement of the building.

Some of them rode up on the elevator with us. When we started off the elevator, they got ahead of us and shot us walking down the hall and took pictures of us going to homicide.

We carried him into the interrogation room and they followed us into the homicide office.

At this time probably there were six or seven people, Jim Underwood from KRLD was one of them, and I don't recall any more specifically by name.

But as time went by in the afternoon, more and more people came in until I would say about 6:45 or 7 o'clock that night, the night of the 22d, when I left, there were some 70- or 80-odd reporters and floodlights and two or three live cameras and several more cameras on tripods, and out-of-town reporters, and local reporters, and everything else, that officers were on duty and in uniform to keep the halls open as much as possible.

And if you wanted to go from the elevator entrance on back toward homicide or to any of the other detective offices, you had to drag your way through TV cables and bodies of people, seesawing your course to get through there.

Mr. Belin. Now you have stated when we first started this deposition that you had some background in either newspaper or radio or television?

Mr. Hill. Yes, sir.

I worked at the Herald both as a police reporter, as a newswriter, and a radio-TV editor, and left there and went with WBAP as a member of their Dallas Bureau, covering the, working out of an office in the police station here in Dallas, and covering police news and all other types of news also.

Mr. Belin. Was there any request ever made to the press people to clear the hall or clear the floor at all?

Mr. Hill. Not to my personal knowledge; no, sir. It could have been made when I wasn't there, or it could have been made before I got there, or after I left or while I was in an office or something, but I don't know that a direct order was ever given to get everybody out.

Mr. Belin. Could you tell us what general discussion there was among the officers, the line officers, without quoting any names that might embarrass anyone, about all of these people and paraphernalia there?

65 Mr. Hill. As to the situation, we commented that it was a bad thing that we didn't have a space big enough to put everybody and make press releases to them like they did in some of the eastern cities.

I think somebody brought up the fact that in New York you wouldn't do what was done here because everybody had to go to one place and when they got ready to tell you something, they would come in and make a formal announcement, and if they wanted to throw it open for questions they did, and if they didn't they would walk out.

There was commenting on the smallness of the space that we had to work in and the inconvenience there, and the building, had it been Brooklyn, it wouldn't have created as much congestion and all.

But there was a feeling of congeniality between the police and the press, and I observed some of the officers that did have to go ask somebody to move or get out of the way, or not block a door, or so, or not block this, and the press was very nice about cooperating and doing at that time what they were asked to do.

What happened Saturday and Sunday, I don't know. But it was rather crowded, I will make that statement.

Mr. Belin. Sergeant Hill, I have handed you these six bullets that you previously identified with your signature on it here, and asked you to examine and try to find which one, if any, had a scratch that you talked about, and you picked out what might properly be the one.

What is the fact as to whether or not this depression was a deep one or was one that you found difficult to see?

Mr. Hill. It was one that I found difficult to see at the time.

However, the bullets had not been handled as much at that time, and they were less shiny, and evidence would have been a little better on a dull shell where a new marking had been made on it rather than one that had been handled a few times.

Mr. Belin. The two that you picked out are marked, I believe, "Q-80" and the other one is "Q-177," is that it?

Mr. Hill. That's right.

Mr. Belin. I think you said as between the two of them, you saw——

Mr. Hill. Q-80 would be the one.

Mr. Belin. Now, Sergeant Hill, we met one time earlier here, I think, a couple of days ago, is that correct?

Mr. Hill. I believe it was Friday afternoon, sir.

Mr. Belin. Friday afternoon?

Mr. Hill. Yes.

Mr. Belin. Originally we had your deposition set for Friday afternoon, is that correct?

Mr. Hill. That's right.

Mr. Belin. You came and I had an airplane flight, an 8 o'clock flight, that was canceled?

Mr. Hill. That left.

Mr. Belin. I left at 5:30—and now it is past 7 o'clock—and I told you I didn't think we had a chance to get your deposition.

At that time I believe I asked you just to state what general areas of work you had worked in so we could try and see whether or not we had time to take your deposition in half an hour, and I believe you described your work at the Texas School Book Depository in general terms, and in general terms your being at the Texas Theatre, but did we go into any details at that time?

Mr. Hill. The only specifics we discussed were this.

You were asking Officer Hicks if either one recalled seeing a sack, supposedly one that had been made by the suspect, in which he could have possibly carried the weapon into the Depository, and I at that time told you about the small sack that appeared to be a lunchsack, and that that was the only sack that I saw, and that I left the Book Depository prior to the finding of the gun.

Or the section, if it was found up there on the sixth floor, if it was there, I didn't see it.

Then you asked me some statement, if I had heard it in the car, but I don't recall what statement it was.

66 But I told you at that time there was remarks made, but I didn't recall hearing that. I don't remember what it was.

Perhaps your memory on that is better than mine.

Mr. Belin. Was there anything else in specific that we discussed at that time?

Mr. Hill. Not that I recall.

Mr. Belin. Otherwise, that is our only conversation that we had?

Mr. Hill. Yes, sir; it was just very general and very limited due to the stress of time.

Mr. Belin. By the way, did you search the suspect that you brought in from the Texas Theatre?

Mr. Hill. As to any other possible weapon?

Mr. Belin. Yes; or ammunition?

Mr. Hill. I did not search him, and being that he was handcuffed, and being that they were moving him out hurriedly, I don't recall anyone else searching him after he was placed under arrest.

Mr. Belin. Is there anything else you can think of, whether I have asked it or not, that is in any way relevant to this area of inquiry pertaining to the investigation of the assassination, or the investigation of the Tippit murder?

Anything else you can think of that you would like to comment on at this time?

Mr. Hill. Not that I can recall, sir.

Mr. Belin. Sergeant Hill, we want to thank you very much for your splendid cooperation, and for the cooperation of the entire police department here, and you particularly.

You had to make two trips, because of the fact that the one airplane of mine was canceled.

Mr. Hill. They were both on duty, so I don't mind.

Mr. Belin. You have an opportunity, if you like, to read the typewritten transcript of this deposition and sign it, or else you can waive the signing and have it go directly to Washington without your reading.

Do you have any preference?

Mr. Hill. Sir, if it would be all right, I would like to run by and sign it?

If you will just let me know when, I will be here.

Mr. Belin. They will contact you and again we want to thank you very much.

Mr. Hill. It is my pleasure. Anytime I can help, let me know.


TESTIMONY OF J. M. POE

The testimony of J. M. Poe was taken at 10:30 a.m., on April 9, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. Ball. Would you stand and be sworn, please.

Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give before this Commission shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. Poe. Yes.

Mr. Ball. State your name.

Mr. Poe. J. M. Poe [spelling]. P-o-e.

Mr. Ball. And your address?

Mr. Poe. 1716 Cascade Street.

Mr. Ball. And your occupation?

Mr. Poe. Police officer, city of Dallas.

Mr. Ball. All right, what is your rank in the department?

Mr. Poe. Patrolman.

Mr. Ball. How long have you been in the department?

67 Mr. Poe. Nine years and one month.

Mr. Ball. And where were you born?

Mr. Poe. Winnsboro, Tex.

Mr. Ball. Where did you go to school?

Mr. Poe. Winnsboro, Stephensville, and Edgewood.

Mr. Ball. How far through school did you go?

Mr. Poe. Graduated from high school.

Mr. Ball. Then what did you do?

Mr. Poe. Then went into the Navy.

Mr. Ball. How long did you stay there?

Mr. Poe. Three years.

Mr. Ball. Then what did you do?

Mr. Poe. I was what we called a "snipe," diesel mechanic.

Mr. Ball. How long did you do that work?

Mr. Poe. About 2 years.

Mr. Ball. Then what did you do?

Mr. Poe. I was in construction work. I was the carpenter when I got out of the Service.

Mr. Ball. You worked as a "snipe," in the Service, is that right?

Mr. Poe. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Then you got out of the Service and worked as a construction worker?

Mr. Poe. Yes.

Mr. Ball. And then what did you do?

Mr. Poe. I joined the police force.

Mr. Ball. What kind of work do you do on the police force?

Mr. Poe. Patrol work.

Mr. Ball. Patrolman?

Mr. Poe. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. In a car?

Mr. Poe. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. In a radio car?

Mr. Poe. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Were you on duty on the 22d of November 1963?

Mr. Poe. Yes, sir; I was.

Mr. Ball. What time of day?

Mr. Poe. From 7 in the morning until 3 in the afternoon.

Mr. Ball. Were you alone?

Mr. Poe. No, sir.

Mr. Ball. Who was with you?

Mr. Poe. L. E. Jez.

Mr. Ball. [Spelling.] J-a-s-s.

Mr. Poe. No; it is J-e-z.

Mr. Ball. What district do you patrol?

Mr. Poe. I had two districts to patrol. District 105 and district 106.

Mr. Ball. Where are they located?

Mr. Poe. In the western end of the downtown section.

Mr. Ball. You were a downtown patrolman?

Mr. Poe. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Did you hear of the assassination of the President over the radio? The fact that the President had been shot?

Mr. Poe. We heard the call come out on the radio. There was a signal 19, which would be a shooting of the President, at Elm and Houston Streets.

Mr. Ball. What did you do?

Were you told to go some place?

Mr. Poe. We reported the scene; yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. To where?

Mr. Poe. To Elm and Houston.

Mr. Ball. When—what did you do there?

Mr. Poe. We helped cover off the building and control the crowd.

Mr. Ball. Then you went where?

Mr. Poe. From there to Oak Cliff, to the scene of the Tippit shooting.

68 Mr. Ball. How did you happen to go out there?

Mr. Poe. I was standing close to the squad car using the squad car as part of the block to keep the crowd back and had run out of rope, and heard a citizen, I presume, get on the radio, and—because he didn't know radio procedure, called and said a police officer was shot out there. At first give the wrong address, and come back and changed it to another address, and I believe he left us in the 400 block of East Ninth, the last time, and we went out there.

Mr. Ball. You went there?

Mr. Poe. Yes.

Mr. Ball. And what did you find when you got there?

Mr. Poe. We found——

Mr. Ball. What did you see?

Mr. Poe. Found the squad car parked toward the curb, and a pool of blood at the left-front wheel of the car. The ambulance had already picked him up and the officer had left the scene when we arrived. We had—I don't know how many people there were. Looked like 150 to 200 people around there, and Mrs. Markham, I talked to her first and we got a description of the man that shot Tippit.

Mr. Ball. Do you know what the description was?

Mr. Poe. Sir?

Mr. Ball. Do you know what the description was?

Mr. Poe. White male, about 25, about 5 feet 8, brown hair, medium, and I believe she said had on a white jacket at the time.

Mr. Ball. What did you do then?

Mr. Poe. We gave the description to several of the officers at the scene. You couldn't get on the radio at the time, there was so much traffic on the radio, and the last—the direction he was seen leaving, and then I talked to several more witnesses around there.

Mr. Ball. Did you ever put that description on the radio?

Mr. Poe. I believe we did. But I couldn't swear to it.

Mr. Ball. And what happened after that?

Mr. Poe. I talked to a Spanish man, but I don't remember his name. Dominique, I believe.

Mr. Ball. Domingo Benavides?

Mr. Poe. I believe that is correct; yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. What did he tell you?

Mr. Poe. He told me, give me the same, or similar description of the man, and told me he was running out across this lawn. He was unloading his pistol as he ran, and he picked the shells up.

Mr. Ball. Domingo told you who was running across the lawn?

Mr. Poe. A man, white man.

Mr. Ball. What was he doing?

Mr. Poe. He was unloading his pistol as he run.

Mr. Ball. And what did he say?

Mr. Poe. He said he picked the two hulls up.

Mr. Ball. Did he hand you the hulls?

Mr. Poe. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Did you put any markings on the hulls?

Mr. Poe. I couldn't swear to it; no, sir.

Mr. Ball. What did you do with the hulls?

Mr. Poe. I turned the hulls into the crime lab, which was at the scene.

Mr. Ball. Do you know the name of the man with the crime lab or from the crime lab?

Mr. Poe. I couldn't swear to it. I believe Pete Barnes, but I wouldn't swear to it.

Mr. Ball. Did you talk to any people there?

Mr. Poe. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Who?

Mr. Poe. Talked to Mrs. Markham.

Mr. Ball. Did you talk to the two Davis girls?

Mr. Poe. I talked to one of them, but I can't recall talking to two Davis girls.

69 Mr. Ball. Do you remember what a Detective Dhority there at the scene did?

Mr. Poe. I remember Detective Leavelle at the scene.

Mr. Ball. Leavelle?

Mr. Poe. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Did the Davis girls give you anything? Either one of the Davis girls hand you anything?

Mr. Poe. She give me the same general description of the suspect as Mrs. Markham.

Mr. Ball. What was that?

Mr. Poe. White male, and in his early 20's, around 5'7" or 8", about 145 pounds, and I believe she said had on a white jacket.

Mr. Ball. There is a—off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. Ball. We have here a broadcast by Walker. Do you know Walker?

Mr. Poe. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Was Walker there at the scene?

Mr. Poe. Yes, sir; he came by the scene after I got there.

Mr. Ball. What is his full name?

Mr. Poe. I don't know. I want to say C. T., but I am not positive on that.

Mr. Ball. At 1:22 p.m., on the transcript of the radio log, I note it says, "Have a description of suspect on Jefferson. Last seen about the 300 block of East Jefferson. White male, 30's; 5'8", black hair, slender built, wearing white shirt, black slacks."

Do you know whether you gave Walker that description?

Mr. Poe. I remember giving Walker a description. My partner got in the car with Walker.

Mr. Ball. Did you give Walker a description similar to that?

Mr. Poe. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Well, the only difference I see between the description you said you gave the other officer and this was that you said he was in his 20's or 25, and this says about 30. Otherwise it is about the same.

Mr. Poe. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Who told you he had on a white jacket?

Mr. Poe. Mrs. Markham told me first.

Mr. Ball. She did?

Mr. Poe. Yes, sir; Mrs. Markham was awfully excited, and she was—looked like about to faint, and I tried to calm her down as much as I could at first and get as much as I could out of her.

Mr. Ball. How many cartridges, or empty cartridges or shells were given to you?

Mr. Poe. There were two in an empty Winston cigarette package.

Mr. Ball. Did you save the Winston cigarette package?

Mr. Poe. I turned it in with the two cartridges.

Mr. Ball. To the crime lab?

Mr. Poe. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Now, I have here a package which has been marked "Q"—FBI lab. Q-74 to Q-77. Would you look those over and see if there is any identification on there by you to indicate that those were the hulls given to you by Benavides?

Mr. Poe. I want to say these two are mine, but I couldn't swear to it.

Mr. Ball. Did you make a mark?

Mr. Poe. I can't swear to it; no, sir.

Mr. Ball. But there is a mark on two of these?

Mr. Poe. There is a mark. I believe I put on them, but I couldn't swear to it, I couldn't make them out any more.

Mr. Ball. Now, the ones you said you made a mark on are—you think it is these two? Q-77 and Q-75?

Mr. Poe. Yes, sir; those two there.

Mr. Ball. Both marked Western Special? They both are marked Western Special. How long did you stay there?

Mr. Poe. At the scene?

Mr. Ball. Uh-huh.

70 Mr. Poe. I stayed there until Leavelle and his partner from the crime lab got there.

Mr. Ball. Then you left?

Mr. Poe. Yes, sir; I got out and helped try to find the suspect.

Mr. Ball. Were you at the Texas Theatre?

Mr. Poe. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Did you see him apprehended?

Mr. Poe. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. Ball. You were out?

Mr. Poe. At the back.

Mr. Ball. At the back?

Mr. Poe. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. I think that is all, Mr. Poe.

This will be written up and submitted to you for your signature, and you can sign it if you wish, or waive your signature.

Which do you prefer?

Mr. Poe. Well, sir; I don't have anything to hide. I will tell the truth.

Mr. Ball. Do you want to give your signature?

Mr. Poe. I will sign it.

Mr. Ball. Okay. We'll do that. We can notify you and you can come up here and sign it.

Mr. Poe. All right.


TESTIMONY OF JOHN GIBSON

The testimony of John Gibson was taken at 3:45 p.m., on April 8, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. Ball. Will you please rise and hold up your hand and be sworn?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give before the Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. Gibson. I do.

Mr. Ball. Will you state your name, please?

Mr. Gibson. John Gibson.

Mr. Ball. What is your occupation?

Mr. Gibson. I am manager of a retail store.

Mr. Ball. What kind of retail store is that?

Mr. Gibson. It's Elko Camera store.

Mr. Ball. What is the address of the Elko Camera Store?

Mr. Gibson. 239 West Jefferson.

Mr. Ball. Near the Texas Theatre?

Mr. Gibson. I'm four doors from the Texas Theatre.

Mr. Ball. Where were you born, Mr. Gibson?

Mr. Gibson. I was born in Brashear, Tex.

Mr. Ball. Where did you go to school?

Mr. Gibson. Woodrow Wilson High School.

Mr. Ball. Here in Dallas?

Mr. Gibson. In Dallas.

Mr. Ball. Well, what have you done since you got out of school?

Mr. Gibson. Well, after I got out of school I went in service in the Navy and stayed in there 2 years and came back and went to work for Snap-Shots, Inc., and then went to work for Hermetic Seal in Garland, and then went to work for Elko.

Mr. Ball. On November 22, 1963, did you go to a picture show that day?

Mr. Gibson. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. About what time of day?

Mr. Gibson. It was at 1 o'clock.

71 Mr. Ball. Do you go to the picture show very often—that particular theatre—the Texas Theatre?

Mr. Gibson. Like I said—that's on Friday and that is depending on business.

Mr. Ball. About what time of day do you usually go on Friday?

Mr. Gibson. About 1 o'clock—the same time I always go to lunch.

Mr. Ball. Where did you sit on this Friday, November 22, 1963?

Mr. Gibson. I sat in the first chair from the rear on the far right-hand side.

Mr. Ball. Is that where you always sit?

Mr. Gibson. That's where I always sit—that's my chair.

Mr. Ball. I have a picture here of the theatre, which I will have marked as Exhibit A, and will you look at that picture? Does that look like the interior of the Texas Theatre to you?

Mr. Gibson. Yes, sir; it's got more light on it than I've seen most of the time—that looks like it.

(Instrument marked by the reporter as Gibson Exhibit No. A, for identification.)

Mr. Ball. Is the seat in which you usually sit shown in that picture?

Mr. Gibson. No, sir.

Mr. Ball. Where is that seat with reference to the picture?

Mr. Gibson. Further to the left—from the main seating in the very back—it would be just past him.

Mr. Ball. There's a man sitting in the back in the first seat in the center aisle?

Mr. Gibson. Right, and I would be—to his right.

Mr. Ball. In the same row?

Mr. Gibson. In the same row.

Mr. Ball. To his right facing the screen?

Mr. Gibson. Yes.

Mr. Ball. And on the other aisle, is that correct?

Mr. Gibson. Right.

Mr. Ball. Did you see the lights come on in that theatre?

Mr. Gibson. Yes.

Mr. Ball. Had you paid any attention to other people who had come in the theatre before the lights came on?

Mr. Gibson. No.

Mr. Ball. Tell me what happened after the lights came on?

Mr. Gibson. Well, when the lights came on, of course, as I said before, I know most of the people that work there in the show and I got up and started to the front to ask where the head usher or the girl was that works these lights—if something was wrong—I thought maybe they had a fire.

Mr. Ball. You say you started to the front, you mean you started into the lobby?

Mr. Gibson. I started to the lobby, and just before I got to the door there were two or three—anyway the first police officer that got to me was carrying a shotgun, I remember that, and he says, "Is there anybody in the balcony?"

I said, "I don't know." He went on up into the balcony and I stood around out in the lobby for—I don't know—a minute or something, I guess, and they kept coming in and I stepped back inside the theatre just standing just behind where I had been sitting and I would say there were at least six or possibly more policemen downstairs. The rest of them were going upstairs.

Mr. Ball. What did you see happen?

Mr. Gibson. Well, I was standing there watching all this going on and then the policeman started down the aisle—I would say there was another—I don't know, maybe six or eight—started down the aisles.

Mr. Ball. When you say "down the aisles," you mean all of the aisles?

Mr. Gibson. Toward the screen—I don't know if they were going down all of them or not. I don't believe there was any—there was one policeman standing, it seems to me like, right on the other side of me, in the far aisle—just behind me—I don't think there was anybody going down the far aisle next to the wall on my side.

Mr. Ball. What aisles did you see policemen going down?

Mr. Gibson. I saw them going down what I would call the two big center72 aisles, and then the next thing was—Oswald was standing in the aisle with a gun in his hand.

Mr. Ball. That's the next thing you saw?

Mr. Gibson. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Was there anybody with him—near him?

Mr. Gibson. I couldn't swear to that—I don't know—you mean other policemen?

Mr. Ball. That's what I mean—was he in the aisles?

Mr. Gibson. Well, he was in the aisle when I saw him.

Mr. Ball. What was he doing?

Mr. Gibson. Well, he had this pistol in his hand.

Mr. Ball. Was anybody near him?

Mr. Gibson. Just the officers.

Mr. Ball. What was the officer doing—did you say officers or police officer?

Mr. Gibson. Officers.

Mr. Ball. Plural, officers?

Mr. Gibson. Yes; there were more than one.

Mr. Ball. What were they doing?

Mr. Gibson. Well, they were going toward him.

Mr. Ball. Did they have ahold of him at the time?

Mr. Gibson. No; I don't believe so.

Mr. Ball. Did anyone have ahold of him at that time?

Mr. Gibson. I don't think so.

Mr. Ball. Did you see any officer grab hold of Oswald?

Mr. Gibson. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Which one—can you describe where he was and what he did—just tell us in your own words what you saw him do?

Mr. Gibson. Well, just like—I guess you have heard this a lot of times—the gun misfired—it clicked and about the same time there was one police officer that positively had him.

Mr. Ball. What do you mean—"had him"?

Mr. Gibson. Well, I mean he grabbed ahold of him.

Mr. Ball. Did he grab ahold of him before you heard the click or afterwards?

Mr. Gibson. Gee, that's a question that's kind of hard to answer because I would say possibly seconds before or a second—maybe at the precise time the gun clicked. It happened pretty fast and like I say, I just went in to eat a hot-dog for lunch and I wasn't expecting any of this.

Mr. Ball. Did you see any officer strike Oswald?

Mr. Gibson. No, sir; not directly; I saw them take him to the floor.

Mr. Ball. Did you see Oswald strike any officer?

Mr. Gibson. [Shaking head for negative answer.]

Mr. Ball. You did not?

Mr. Gibson. Not that I saw.

Mr. Ball. Did you hear anybody say anything?

Mr. Gibson. Well, I heard the officers, but I don't remember what they said—I couldn't tell you if my life depended on it.

Mr. Ball. Did you hear Oswald say anything?

Mr. Gibson. No.

Mr. Ball. You mentioned the fact that they took him to the floor, you mean they actually went down in the floor of the theatre or close to it?

Mr. Gibson. Well, from where I was standing and looking across—they took him to the floor.

Mr. Ball. Were there any seats in the way when they fell?

Mr. Gibson. No; I was standing up—yes; there was seats in the way, but I was looking at an angle.

Mr. Ball. Did Oswald fall on the seats or on the floor?

Mr. Gibson. They fell on the floor as best I could tell.

Mr. Ball. Then what did you see happen?

Mr. Gibson. I didn't see anything happen—I walked back to the front.

Mr. Ball. Did you see Oswald leave the theatre?

Mr. Gibson. Yes; I saw the officers bring him out.

73 Mr. Ball. Describe what you saw at that time—I want to know how they had ahold of him?

Mr. Gibson. Well, right after they took him to the floor, as I said, he had a gun in his hand and I turned around and walked back into the lobby, the front part of the theatre, and just right after I walked out into the lobby, one of the policemen yelled, "Lock the doors," and so I walked up and started locking the doors and the head usher, Butch, came running out and he started at one end and I started at the other end. There was six or eight doors in the front, and we locked them up and then they brought Oswald through the door—there was two police officers that had ahold of him, and his arms were bent around behind him—like so [indicating].

Mr. Ball. And did the officer have his arm around his neck?

Mr. Gibson. I don't know—I don't think so—he did have a black eye and his shirt was about halfway torn off of him.

Mr. Ball. Did you hear Oswald say anything?

Mr. Gibson. Yes.

Mr. Ball. What did he say?

Mr. Gibson. He said, "I protest police brutality."

Mr. Ball. At any time did you see an officer, while the officers were struggling, with Oswald, did you see an officer strike Oswald with the butt of a shotgun?

Mr. Gibson. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. Ball. Did you see a shotgun in the hands of any of the officers who were struggling with Oswald?

Mr. Gibson. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. Ball. Did you see any officer in possession of a shotgun in the theatre?

Mr. Gibson. Oh—yes, yes; I saw quite a few in possession of a shotgun.

Mr. Ball. Were there any officers with shotguns near Oswald when he was struggling with these other officers?

Mr. Gibson. Gee, I don't know—that, I couldn't say—because like I say, when they took him down to the floor, all I could—or I should say down—I turned around and went back to the front.

Mr. Ball. Did you see the police talk to the other patrons of the theatre?

Mr. Gibson. Well, as I said, the only thing that they said to me—the first policeman that I saw in the theatre was right after the lights came on and he asked me if there was anyone upstairs, but I can't definitely say I saw them talking to anybody.

Mr. Ball. Well, did any officers talk to you afterwards and get your name and address?

Mr. Gibson. No.

Mr. Ball. Did you see them take the name and address of anybody else?

Mr. Gibson. No, sir; right after they put Lee Oswald in the police car and drove off, I walked outside and went back over to the store.

Mr. Ball. I understood that one group of the police headed for Oswald?

Mr. Gibson. Well, I don't believe they really headed for him—I believe they just started down through the theatre. From what the boy told me—Johnny Pardis told me, he followed him into the theatre and he went upstairs, and I believe this is why all the policemen went upstairs. I don't think they really headed for him. I mean, they just evidently, as I said, all of them went upstairs, with the exception of a small majority, say 6 or 8, maybe 12 downstairs and inside the theatre there.

Mr. Ball. Did they pass you on their way?

Mr. Gibson. You mean up the stairs?

Mr. Ball. No; the smaller party that was downstairs.

Mr. Gibson. No; I was standing on this far side right next to the wall.

Mr. Ball. And they were in an aisle over there?

Mr. Gibson. Well, actually, they were two or three aisles over—there's two big main aisles, and then there's another small aisle that runs down the wall.

Mr. Ball. Was there any other patron of the theatre along the way that they went?

Mr. Gibson. I don't know this, as I said, for a fact—this is what a lady at the show told me. She sent Butch, the head usher up on the stage to guard the exit back there and where he come from I don't know, because as I said,74 when they took him to the floor, then I turned around and walked out into the lobby and one officer hollered, "Lock the doors," and Butch came through there to the doors.

Mr. Ball. But you didn't see other officers go up to any other patrons of the theatre over there on their way to Oswald?

Mr. Gibson. No.

Mr. Ball. As they went along—they finally walked up and outside?

Mr. Gibson. No; they were just looking in general it appeared to me.

Mr. Ball. Was there anyone who was sitting closer to them than Oswald was?

Mr. Gibson. Gosh—I don't know—it's hard to remember, when you try.

Mr. Ball. You don't know why they went up to him and not someone else?

Mr. Gibson. Well, as I said—I don't think they went up to him. As I said, the first time I saw him in the theatre definitely was when he was standing in the aisle with a gun in his hand. Now, somebody told me that Oswald jumped up and whirled around and said, "This is it," but this is something I don't know, so this is hearsay.

Mr. Ball. But would you think he stood up first before any police officer got to him? Or that near him?

Mr. Gibson. He had to, because they took him from a standing position to the floor and he was standing up.

Mr. Ball. Did you see them before they came up to him?

Mr. Gibson. Yes; I was watching them there, I was just standing in the corner—as I said, just looking around the corner—there is a chance you can see in the corner and I was looking around it and as I said, I don't know whether he got up and whirled around or what he did, but when I saw him he was facing the police with a gun in his hand.

Mr. Ball. The first you saw him he was standing?

Mr. Gibson. He was standing.

Mr. Ball. And you didn't hear him say anything except on his way out?

Mr. Gibson. Except on his way out—is the only thing I heard him say.

Mr. Ball. This will be written up and you can come down and sign it if you want to, or you can waive your signature. What would you like to do?

Mr. Gibson. Well, I said it, I might as well sign it.

Mr. Ball. Okay. You will be called in to come down and sign it.

Mr. Gibson. Thanks very much.

Mr. Ball. Thank you.


TESTIMONY OF JAMES PUTNAM

The testimony of James Putnam was taken at 11 a.m., on April 9, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. John Hart Ely, member of the staff of the President's Commission.

Mr. Ely. Would you stand up and be sworn, please?

Mr. Putnam. All right.

Mr. Ely. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. Putnam. I do.

Mr. Ely. Would you state your name, please?

Mr. Putnam. James Putnam.

Mr. Ely. And where do you live?

Mr. Putnam. 2015 Joan Drive.

Mr. Ely. What is your occupation?

Mr. Putnam. Police officer—sergeant of police.

Mr. Ely. How long have you been with the Dallas Police Department?

Mr. Putnam. Ten years and four months.

Mr. Ely. Could you give us something of your background before you started75 to work for the police department—where you went to school and what you did before you became a policeman?

Mr. Putnam. Is this pertinent?

Mr. Ely. Where did you go to school?

Mr. Putnam. Is this pertinent to the deposition? Well, if you want it, I will give it to you. I went to school at Charleston, S.C. and I was in the Navy for about 7 years.

Mr. Ely. And did you go directly from the Navy to the police department?

Mr. Putnam. No; from the Navy I went to work for Lone Star Gas Co. here in Dallas. From there I went to work for Prudential Insurance Co. from which I was recalled into the Navy again, and when I was released, I went back to the insurance company, and from there I applied for employment with the Dallas Police Department.

Mr. Ely. Thank you, sergeant. Now, on November 22, 1963, were you on duty with the police department?

Mr. Putnam. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ely. Did your duties on that day involve you in any way in the investigation of the assassination of President Kennedy?

Mr. Putnam. Yes.

Mr. Ely. What was the nature of your involvement with that investigation?

Mr. Putnam. Just to assist in covering of the Book Depository Building and aiding in searching the building.

Mr. Ely. Did your duties involve you in any way in the investigation of the shooting of Officer Tippit?

Mr. Putnam. No.

Mr. Ely. Could you state the nature of your specialty with the police department? What sort of work do you specialize in?

Mr. Putnam. My assignment then and now is sergeant of police, supervising patrolmen in the radio patrol division.

(Instrument marked by the reporter as "Putnam Exhibit No. 1," for identification.)

Mr. Ely. Sergeant, I will show you first a map which is designated Putnam Deposition Exhibit No. 1, and I will also show you two documents designated Sawyer Exhibits A and B, which purport to be transcripts of radio logs from the 22d of November. Now, although you would have no personal knowledge of where Officer Tippit was assigned that day, assume for purposes of my questioning that his original assignment on the 22d of November was within the area marked 78 on Putnam Exhibit 1. Can you tell me within which district the corner of Lancaster and Eighth Street is?

Mr. Putnam. District 109.

Mr. Ely. And is it correct that here on the exhibit marked Sawyer Deposition Exhibit A there is a call recorded at 12:54 p.m., from 78 to 531 reporting he was at Lancaster and 8th?

Mr. Putnam. Yes; there is.

Mr. Ely. Now, assuming that Officer Tippit was originally assigned to the district numbered 78, taking into account the report that at 12:54 he was within the district marked 109, and also assuming that he later was shot within the district marked 91, would you look at these radio logs and tell us if you find on either one of them any calls which would account for the fact that he had thus come in toward the center of town from the district he was originally assigned to? Feel free to draw upon your general knowledge of the custom in the Dallas Police Department for leaving, or remaining in, one's assigned district.

Mr. Putnam. One transmission here on channel 1, that would be the normal channel that Tippit would be listening to, at 12:43 p.m. on Sawyer's Deposition Exhibit B, is to the attention of all squads in the downtown area, code 3 to Elm and Houston, and with Officer Tippit being assigned to district 78 and allowed the discretion that is allowed in the Dallas Police Department—he would start in the direction of the downtown area. A feasible route would bring him to district 109 and that vicinity.

Mr. Ely. Is there any special reason why that would be a feasible route?

Mr. Putnam. This Houston Street, if you will notice right in this corner—76Houston Street adjoins district 109. It is one of the routes you can use to cross the river into the downtown area. This would be the normal procedure as far as Officer Tippit was concerned, to come in toward the downtown area, unless disregarded and a later transmission on channel 2, after getting his location, advised him to remain at large in the Oak Cliff area. "At large," would indicate that he would feel free to go nearer in the Oak Cliff area, with the idea in mind that he would be looking for any suspect or any suspicious circumstance that might be related to the shooting.

Mr. Ely. Are districts 78, 109, and 91 all located within the Oak Cliff area?

Mr. Putnam. They are located in the Oak Cliff area.

Mr. Ely. All right, thank you, Sergeant Putnam, I believe that's all.


TESTIMONY OF LT. RIO S. PIERCE

The testimony of Lt. Rio S. Pierce was taken at 11:25 a.m., on April 9, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. John Hart Ely, member of the staff of the President's Commission.

Mr. Ely. Would you stand and be sworn?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. Pierce. I do.

Mr. Ely. Lieutenant, I am here as a representative of the President's Commission which is looking into all the facts surrounding the assassination of President Kennedy, and we have been informed that you might have information which would help us in this inquiry.

Mr. Ely. Would you state your full name, please?

Mr. Pierce. Rio Sam Pierce.

Mr. Ely. And where do you live?

Mr. Pierce. 3227 South Edgefield.

Mr. Ely. Could you tell us what your occupation is?

Mr. Pierce. Officer—police officer.

Mr. Ely. And what rank do you hold?

Mr. Pierce. Lieutenant.

Mr. Ely. You are a lieutenant with the Dallas Police Department?

Mr. Pierce. That's right.

Mr. Ely. Could you tell us something about what you did before you started to work for the police department?

Mr. Pierce. Well, I was raised on a farm out in West Texas and engaged in farming practically all of my life up until I went in the Marine Corps. After I got out of the Marine Corps in 1946, in April I believe it was, I came to the Dallas Police Department in August 1946.

Mr. Ely. Could you tell us, please, what your job is? What do you specialize in with the police department?

Mr. Pierce. I am assigned as a lieutenant in the patrol division out of the central station.

Mr. Ely. Now, were you on duty on November 22, 1963?

Mr. Pierce. I was not.

Mr. Ely. Were you in Dallas on that date?

Mr. Pierce. Part of the day. I went to Ennis, Tex., early that morning and returned to Dallas about—oh, it was approximately 1 or 1:30 p.m.

Mr. Ely. Did you have anything to do with the investigation of the killing of either President Kennedy or Officer Tippit?

Mr. Pierce. No, sir.

Mr. Ely. I will show you three exhibits, one is a map designated Putnam Exhibit No. 1. The other two are designated Sawyer Deposition Exhibits A and B, and are copies of the Dallas Police Department's radio logs for November 22, 1963.

77 If you will for the moment assume that Officer Tippit was assigned to patrol the district marked No. 78 on Putnam Exhibit No. 1. Can you explain why, subsequent to the shooting of the President, Officer Tippit would be in the district marked 109—specifically at the corner of Lancaster and Eighth—at 12:54 p.m., and then would later have proceeded into district 91, which is the area in which he was shot and killed?

Will you look at these radio logs to see if you can find any calls which would lead him to take this route? Use any other information at your disposal to explain to us why he would have gone out of district 78 and over into Nos. 109 and 91?

Mr. Pierce. Well, I see one transmission here that I think would have alerted any officer knowing the fact that the President was in town, at 12:43—I believe this occurred on channel 1—this was taken from channel 1 recordings at 12:43. It says, "Attention all squads of downtown area, code 3 to Elm and Houston with caution."

Mr. Ely. Explain what code 3 means.

Mr. Pierce. That's an emergency. In other words, that is, we have code 1, which is normal driving; we have code 2, and a code 3. In other words, code 3 is your top—proceed with haste and caution. The transmission followed that at 12:44, "Attention all squads, the suspect in the shooting at Elm and Houston is reported to be an unknown white male," and gives the description here—would also be an indication to the squads, and reading this—and I assume that this is the way it came out—a man would have to draw his own judgment, because it hasn't told you yet that the President has been shot, but I would think that any normal police officer would assume that there had been something pertaining to that, probably, and it would be normal procedure for him working in the district he is working in to pull into a closer area to the downtown area, and this district 109, which is, I believe you stated, that as being at Eighth and Lancaster—it doesn't show here on your map, but you have no viaduct—that's about the only place you can cross that river, unless you want to wade.

Mr. Ely. Could you mark on the exhibit with your red pencil where that viaduct would be?

Mr. Pierce. Well, you see, Cadiz Street over here in the downtown area—it also crosses this river and comes on out—may or may not be nearly correct—it isn't too far from wrong—I don't think so—there is two viaducts.

Mr. Ely. The red mark you have just drawn is what?

Mr. Pierce. The red mark is one viaduct that crosses that river and the area where he was at that time, I will just have to use this—Lancaster Street comes in something like that—it isn't marked on here.

Mr. Ely. All right.

Mr. Pierce. But, he wouldn't be too far from that Cadiz Street viaduct. Anyway, they come over that Cadiz Street viaduct, and also you have quite a few apartment houses along there on Lancaster and Marsalis. In other words, there is a large number of people that live over in there. That seemed to me like he was probably using pretty good judgment in getting in that particular area because he would have a chance there to assist from the downtown area there.

Mr. Ely. This transmission to which you referred, the one appearing at 12:43 p.m. on Sawyer Deposition Exhibit B, purports to be directed only to all squads in the downtown area?

Mr. Pierce. That's right.

Mr. Ely. But you think it would be normal even for those squads not located in the downtown area to react?

Mr. Pierce. I would have to call on my experience in the Dallas Police Department. Under normal police procedure we request that the squads stay in their district, but under any emergency situation we do not require that they stay in their district.

Mr. Ely. So, you would characterize this as a normal course of behavior?

Mr. Pierce. It looks like a normal procedure to me.

Mr. Ely. All right. Do you think of anything else that you would want to mention in connection with this, or do you think that just about covers it?

78 Mr. Pierce. Well, like I say, I was on my day off and I would just have to assume what was happening, but I don't know anything in connection with Tippit, but in this location, if that is what you are interested in, that would not be unusual.

Mr. Ely. Well, that's what we are interested in. Thank you very much.

Mr. Pierce. All right, thank you.


TESTIMONY OF CALVIN BUD OWENS

The testimony of Calvin Bud Owens was taken at 11:50 a.m., on April 9, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. John Hart Ely, member of the staff of the President's Commission.

Mr. Ely. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. Owens. I do.

Mr. Ely. Sergeant, I am here as a representative of the President's Commission, which is investigating all of the circumstances surrounding the assassination of President Kennedy, and we have reason to believe that you might be able to give us some information which would help us.

Mr. Owens. All right.

Mr. Ely. Could you state your full name, please?

Mr. Owens. Calvin Bud Owens.

Mr. Ely. And where do you live, sir?

Mr. Owens. 1830 Melbourne [spelling] M-e-l-b-o-u-r-n-e.

Mr. Ely. In Dallas?

Mr. Owens. That's right.

Mr. Ely. What is your occupation?

Mr. Owens. I am a police officer.

Mr. Ely. And what rank do you hold in the police department?

Mr. Owens. Sergeant.

Mr. Ely. How long have you been with the police department?

Mr. Owens. Twenty-three and a half years.

Mr. Ely. Could you give us a general idea of what you did before you went with the department?

Mr. Owens. How far back?

Mr. Ely. Starting with your schooling, let's say.

Mr. Owens. Most of my schooling was in Dallas. I was born in Madill [spelling] M-a-d-i-l-l, Okla. I started school in Wilburton, Okla., and from there to Shawnee, Okla., and from there to Ennis, Tex., and then to Dallas, and then I went through Winnetka. I'll say I graduated from City Park Grammar School and Forest Avenue High School. After I got out of school in the depression, I went to work at the Baker Hotel as a bellhop. I left there and went up to Oklahoma for approximately a year, came back and went to work at Sears, Roebuck and worked there 2 years, and then went to work for the public works department in construction, as a chainman in a survey crew until, let's see, that was in 1938. I worked their until the spring of 1940. I worked 2 months in the fire department, left, and went back to engineers. In October 1940, I went to work in the police department. December 1, 1942, I went in the Navy and got out January 6, 1946, and I returned to the police department.

Mr. Ely. And you have been there ever since?

Mr. Owens. Yes.

Mr. Ely. Were you on duty on November 22, 1963?

Mr. Owens. I was.

Mr. Ely. And what was the nature of your assignment on that date?

Mr. Owens. Acting lieutenant, Oak Cliff substation.

Mr. Ely. Because you were acting lieutenant in the Oak Cliff substation, would that mean that Officer Tippit would be under your supervision?

79 Mr. Owens. That's true.

Mr. Ely. When and how did you first hear that there had been an incident involving the President of the United States?

Mr. Owens. I had eaten lunch and I was on the way back to the substation—channel 1 was not working properly—some mike—or some radio transmitter had left the mike open and I couldn't hear, and I switched over to channel 2 and heard what sounded like Chief Curry say, "It looks like the President has been hit," so, not knowing what he had been hit with, I go in the substation and hear on the radio where they are sending squads downtown to Elm and Houston, and I called the dispatcher's office and wanted to know if they wanted me downtown. They were very busy and never did answer me, so from that, I assumed that there was a big incident involved and maybe the President had been shot, so I leave 4020 West Illinois where the substation is located and proceed to Elm and Houston, code 3.

Mr. Ely. And what does code 3 mean?

Mr. Owens. It means emergency with red lights and siren on.

Mr. Ely. Thank you.

Mr. Owens. I arrived at Elm and Houston, which is the location of the Texas School Book Depository. Before I arrived, the squad was dispatched to pick up a man—an officer on Stemmons, who had a colored man, who had information regarding the shooting. Since I was close, I stopped and picked up a colored man, a lady and two children, and take them to Elm and Houston, and notified Inspector Sawyer of what I had. He informed me to send them to the sheriff's office where they had set up this interrogation room. I turned them over to a patrolman there with the instructions to take them over to the sheriff's office. I stayed with Inspector Sawyer until I was informed that there was a shooting in Oak Cliff involving a police officer.

Mr. Ely. Do you recall the name of this colored man?

Mr. Owens. No. I told Inspector Sawyer that I was assigned to Oak Cliff and an officer was involved in the shooting, and I was taking off, so I proceeded—I got in my car, and Captain Westbrook and Bill Alexander, an assistant district attorney, also was in the car with me and we started out to—I think the call came out at 400 East 10th or 400 East Jefferson. There was confusion there where the situation was. It was corrected and we went to the scene of the shooting.

Now, right there—here's where I'm not quite sure—I don't know whether I was given the gun and all—but I believe I was given the gun and this was Tippit's gun and shells.

Mr. Ely. Do you recall who gave them to you?

Mr. Owens. No; some officer, but I don't know who it was.

Mr. Ely. And how long did you have the gun and shells in your custody?

Mr. Owens. Well, I had them at the hospital and we put them in a paper envelope, a large paper envelope with some more of his possessions.

Mr. Ely. Did you make any identifying marks on them?

Mr. Owens. No; they were his city issued—his own gun.

Mr. Ely. And do you recall whom you gave them to eventually?

Mr. Owens. No; I believe it was Barton—I'm not sure. I couldn't say positively who I gave them to, to go put them in the property room. In fact, I don't even know whether I gave them to anybody. I might have taken them out to the Oak Cliff substation and put them in our property room—I don't know.

Mr. Ely. Now, you were back at the stage where somebody had given you the gun, and let's go on from there.

Mr. Owens. Yes—we were informed by a man whom I do not know, that the suspect that shot Officer Tippit had run across a vacant lot toward Jefferson, and thrown down his jacket, I think he said, white, I'm not sure. Not finding anybody that had seen him come out of that area, we blocked off that square block.

Mr. Ely. Can you tell us specifically what block you blocked off?

Mr. Owens. I believe it was the 400 block of East Jefferson—the 400 or 500 block. It was this block bound by Jefferson, 10th, Patton, and Denver—I believe that was the area. Then we started searching the buildings and houses—there are some old two-story houses there used as businesses.

80 Mr. Ely. What was the nature of your search of these buildings? Did you just look through the halls?

Mr. Owens. Well, I didn't go in. I was standing on the outside and the other officers were going in. I was covering off. Then, we heard over the radio that some officer, who by the number, I took to be a three-wheeler motorcycle officer had seen someone answering the description, go into the basement of the library, which is on the corner of Marsalis and Jefferson, which was about two blocks away. Quite a few of us left that area we were at and proceeded to the library, covered it off, and they brought out the one that they thought was the suspect, but he fit the general description, but he was not the one we were looking for. He was an employee of the library that heard the President had gotten shot and he had been to lunch and he was running over there to tell them that the President got shot.

Mr. Ely. In other words, someone saw this employee run into the library, and that's the reason you came in. He had just run into the library?

Mr. Owens. That's the man that had run across Jefferson and run into the basement of the library, so I went back to the scene of the shooting of Officer Tippit and another call had come and some of my men yelled to me that they had a suspect in the Texas Theatre, and everyone left there, but nobody was left to help guard the scene except the crime lab man, so I remained at the scene, and everybody else went to the Texas Theatre.

Mr. Ely. Do you remember who the crime lab man was who was there?

Mr. Owens. At the time I thought it was Captain Doughty [spelling] D-o-u-g-h-t-y. They finished up taking the pictures and I left the scene and went to Methodist Hospital where Officer Tippit had been taken, and I was taken back to the room where he was taken, and in just a brief examination of the body I saw where one bullet had entered his right chest about the pocket and went through a package of cigarettes. Another one hit him about the center of the chest and hit a button, and another one, I believe, was in his right temple, I'm not sure which temple it was, but those three wounds, I did see. I don't know whether he was shot any more or not. I remained at the hospital for quite a time, and then I went back to the Oak Cliff substation where I was assigned.

Mr. Ely. And because you were assigned to the Oak Cliff substation, you at no time during these 2 days or so went into the main police headquarters; is that correct?

Mr. Owens. What, now?

Mr. Ely. You didn't go to the main police headquarters because you were assigned to the Oak Cliff substation?

Mr. Owens. No; that's right.

Mr. Ely. Now, I show you a map which is labeled Putnam Deposition Exhibit No. 1. Could you tell us what sort of a map this is?

Mr. Owens. It is what we call a district map of the various districts of the city of Dallas.

Mr. Ely. The various districts to which patrolmen are assigned, is that correct?

Mr. Owens. It is what it was set up for. Now, there isn't a squad for each numbered district. Some squads have two or more numbers. I mean, the districts cover that.

Mr. Ely. And could you tell us to which district or districts on that map Officer Tippit was assigned on November 22, 1963?

Mr. Owens. He was assigned to district 78. Now, I don't know whether we were short any squads that day or not, and if we were, he would be assigned to cover another district also. His call number would still be 78.

Mr. Ely. Would his call number be 78 even if he were outside the district?

Mr. Owens. Oh, yes.

Mr. Ely. I show you now one of the radio logs which is designated "Sawyer Deposition Exhibit A." Am I correct in saying that at 12:54 p.m., according to this log, Officer Tippit reported by radio that he was then at the corner of Lancaster and Eighth?

Mr. Owens. That's right.

81 Mr. Ely. Now, in which district on this map would the corner of Lancaster and Eighth fall?

Mr. Owens. In district 109.

Mr. Ely. That would be district 109. In which district on the map was Officer Tippit shot?

Mr. Owens. In district 91.

Mr. Ely. Now, we would like to have your opinion as to why Officer Tippit, who was assigned to district 78, would have been in district 109 at 12:54 p.m. and then later in district 91? In giving us your answer, please feel free to refer to both of these radio logs, which are Sawyer Deposition Exhibits A and B, and also draw upon your experience with the Dallas Police Department and the common procedure for reacting to an emergency.

Mr. Owens. It says here on channel 1, this is Sawyer Deposition Exhibit B, "Attention all squads in the downtown area, code 3, to Elm and Houston with caution," and knowing that the President's parade was going to be down in that area and also at 12:44 this: "attention all squads, the suspect in the shooting, Elm and Houston, is reported to be an unknown white male, approximately 30, slender build, height, 5 feet 6 inches, weight, 165 pounds, reported to be armed with what is thought to be a .30 caliber rifle, no further description or information at this time;" and then it recites at 12:45 signal 19 involving the President—that was at 12:45——

Mr. Ely. And signal 19 means what?

Mr. Owens. A shooting—anything of that magnitude in the shooting of the President is one of the greatest magnitudes, and any officer would proceed as near that location as possible to try to apprehend whoever had done it.

Mr. Ely. Well, would somebody in an outlying district head for Elm and Houston itself, or would he just come in closer?

Mr. Owens. He would move in that direction, and when they had ordered all downtown squads to proceed to Elm and Houston, knowing that he was going to have to answer calls in the downtown area while they are there, and if you know that in all probability you may get called in, and—instead of the district you are in, you are going to head down there so it won't take you near as long, and also you can still be in the area if the suspect comes your way, you will have a better chance of apprehending him.

Mr. Ely. So, you think Tippit might have been filling in for the people whom he knew had been pulled in to Elm and Houston?

Mr. Owens. That's what I think—not only filling in, but also looking for the suspect, because he heard about the shooting and the general description of the suspect, and not knowing which way he went, but he could have gone any way, then he is going to head downtown as soon as possible so if he sees someone answering that description, he can apprehend him.

Mr. Ely. You would say it would be normal procedure for an officer in district 78, which is located out in the outlying districts, to head downtown in any emergency?

Mr. Owens. That's true.

Mr. Ely. Could you perhaps give us an explanation of why he headed over toward 109 and 91? That doesn't seem to be the most direct route.

Mr. Owens. According to this map—it doesn't show all the things on there—it looks like you would have to zigzag quite a bit, but you wouldn't. You could go down Corinth Street and go across the viaduct, but that would get him down on Industrial, which would still be a lot of traffic to go through. He could go down Clarendon to Marsalis and go North Ewing and then get over to Lancaster, and a would give him a straight shoot to the Houston Street viaduct, which would take him right to Elm and Houston.

Mr. Ely. So that you think a path of going from 78 to 109 to 91 would be a more or less logical route for getting into the center of town?

Mr. Owens. Yes; I do.

Mr. Ely. On the 22d of November, did you, yourself, have an area which you were patroling?

Mr. Owens. I was supervising all of the Oak Cliff area, and since I was acting lieutenant, and I made the assignments for that day, I was at the station at 4020 West Illinois at the time.

82 Mr. Ely. In which numbered area is that located?

Mr. Owens. That would be on district 97, and no one sent me, but when I heard all of this—so many squads getting called to report there, then I went.

Mr. Ely. You headed toward the downtown area yourself?

Mr. Owens. Yes; I went to Elm and Houston myself.

Mr. Ely. Even though you didn't have a specific order to go in there either?

Mr. Owens. That's right—that's true.

Mr. Ely. Officer McDonald, who testified before the Commission, told us that he went to the corner of Elm and Houston, do you know which numbered area on this map he was assigned to?

Mr. Owens. He was working district 95, which covers district 95 and 96.

Mr. Ely. Off the record.

(Discussion off the record between Counsel Ely and the witness Owens.)

Mr. Owens. I don't know what district Officer J. L. Angel was working, but it was my understanding that he also went to Elm and Houston.

Mr. Ely. Well, he was working somewhere in the Oak Cliff area, was he?

Mr. Owens. Yes; he was working in the Oak Cliff area under the same sergeant that Officer Tippit was working under, so he would be in the same general area which covers these districts in here.

Mr. Ely. That would be districts 82 and 85?

Mr. Owens. No—81, 82, 85, 86, 87, or 76, 77, 78, or 79—that's that sergeant's district.

Mr. Ely. All right, thank you very much, sergeant.

Mr. Owens. I don't know of anything else—as I say, I couldn't remember where they handed me the gun. I knew it was at the scene because my wife said she saw it on television and I had his gun, and when I asked her about it she said it wasn't the suspect's gun she knew because she has been a policeman's wife long enough to know I wouldn't be handling a gun like that if it was the suspect's.

Mr. Ely. All right, Sergeant, thank you very much.

Mr. Owens. All right, thank you.


TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM ARTHUR SMITH

The testimony of William Arthur Smith was taken at 4:25 p.m., on April 2, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. Ball. Mr. Smith, stand up and raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear that the evidence you are about to give before the Commission shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. Smith. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Sit down.

Mr. Ball. State your name, please.

Mr. Smith. William Arthur Smith.

Mr. Ball. And where do you live?

Mr. Smith. 328 East Davis.

Mr. Ball. What is your age?

Mr. Smith. Twenty.

Mr. Ball. You live with whom? Whom do you live with?

Mr. Smith. My mother.

Mr. Ball. At this address?

Mr. Smith. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Tell me something about yourself, where you were born and where you went to school.

Mr. Smith. I was born in Pine Bluff, Ark., and went to school Wason Chapel.

Mr. Ball. How far through school did you go?

Mr. Smith. Three months into the 12th grade.

83 Mr. Ball. Three months into the 12th grade?

Mr. Smith. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. What did you do after that?

Mr. Smith. Been working ever since, most of the time.

Mr. Ball. What kind of work do you do? Have you done?

Mr. Smith. Corrugated box.

Mr. Ball. Beg your pardon?

Mr. Smith. Corrugated box.

Mr. Ball. That is where you are working now?

Mr. Smith. No, sir; working at a metal shop.

Mr. Ball. Any metal shop?

Mr. Smith. Yes.

Mr. Ball. Have you ever been in trouble with the police?

Mr. Smith. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. What kind of trouble did you get in?

Mr. Smith. Auto theft.

Mr. Ball. You're on probation now, aren't you?

Mr. Smith. Two years.

Mr. Ball. Two years? Ever have any other trouble?

Mr. Smith. Tickets.

Mr. Ball. Just tickets? Traffic tickets?

Mr. Smith. Two right now.

Mr. Ball. You ever have any trouble as a juvenile?

Mr. Smith. No, sir.

Mr. Ball. Now, on November 22, 1963, were you working any place?

Mr. Smith. No, sir.

Mr. Ball. Didn't have a job?

Mr. Smith. No, sir.

Mr. Ball. Where did you spend the day that day?

Mr. Smith. 505 East 10th.

Mr. Ball. Why were you there?

Mr. Smith. Visiting a friend.

Mr. Ball. What is his name?

Mr. Smith. Jimmy Burt.

Mr. Ball. When did you go over there that day?

Mr. Smith. In the morning. In the morning.

Mr. Ball. In the morning?

Mr. Smith. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. What time did you leave there that day?

Mr. Smith. In the evening.

Mr. Ball. So, you spent the whole day there?

Mr. Smith. Yes.

Mr. Ball. Did something happen a little after 1 o'clock there that day that you noticed?

Mr. Smith. Yes, sir; policeman got shot.

Mr. Ball. Now, at the time the policeman was shot, where were you?

Mr. Smith. In the front yard, at 505 East 10th.

Mr. Ball. Who was with you?

Mr. Smith. Jimmy Burt.

Mr. Ball. That was about how far from where the policeman got shot?

Mr. Smith. One block.

Mr. Ball. That would be about a block east, wouldn't it?

Mr. Smith. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Policeman was shot in the 400 block?

Mr. Smith. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. And you were in the 500 block?

Mr. Smith. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. What called your attention to this incident?

Mr. Smith. I heard some shots.

Mr. Ball. And what? You looked down that way?

Mr. Smith. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. What did you see?

84 Mr. Smith. Saw Oswald running and policeman falling.

Mr. Ball. Did you see his face, or just his back?

Mr. Smith. Saw the side of him, the side and back of him when he was running.

Mr. Ball. Did you see him before he ran?

Mr. Smith. Yes.

Mr. Ball. Saw the side of his face?

Mr. Smith. Yes.

Mr. Ball. And he ran in what direction?

Mr. Smith. West.

Mr. Ball. Did you follow him?

Mr. Smith. No, sir.

Mr. Ball. Did you go down to where the policeman was shot?

Mr. Smith. Yes.

Mr. Ball. What did you see?

Mr. Smith. Saw the policeman lying on the ground. I mean on the street.

Mr. Ball. And did a crowd gather around there?

Mr. Smith. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. How long did you stay there?

Mr. Smith. About 45 minutes.

Mr. Ball. Did you give your name to the police?

Mr. Smith. No, sir.

Mr. Ball. Why?

Mr. Smith. Because I was on probation. I thought it might hurt my probation record.

Mr. Ball. All right; you did tell someone you had seen it, didn't you?

Mr. Smith. Yes.

Mr. Ball. Who?

Mr. Smith. This boy I ran around with.

Mr. Ball. What's his name?

Mr. Smith. James Markham.

Mr. Ball. Is he the son of Helen Markham?

Mr. Smith. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Did you talk to her?

Mr. Smith. No, sir; she talks to me.

Mr. Ball. Mrs. Markham talked to you?

Mr. Smith. Yes.

Mr. Ball. And did you tell Mrs. Markham?

Mr. Smith. I told her what I saw and that is the reason I am here, I a——

Mr. Ball. Did the police come out and see you?

Mr. Smith. The FBI.

Mr. Ball. The FBI did? Did you tell them the same story you told me?

Mr. Smith. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Now, did you see Oswald on television?

Mr. Smith. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. On the night of the shooting?

Mr. Smith. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Did it appear to you to be the same man you had seen?

Mr. Smith. He had lighter hair than he did when I saw him.

Mr. Ball. Well, now, wait a minute. You mean the man you saw on television——

Mr. Smith. Had lighter hair.

Mr. Ball. Mr. Smith—than the man you saw running away?

Mr. Smith. Yes.

Mr. Ball. Is that right?

Mr. Smith. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. What color hair did the man have that you saw running away?

Mr. Smith. Brown, brownish-black. It was dark.

Mr. Ball. How did the hair appear on television?

Mr. Smith. Looked blond.

Mr. Ball. Were you later shown a picture of Oswald?

Mr. Smith. Yes, sir.

85 Mr. Ball. By whom?

Mr. Smith. FBI agent.

Mr. Ball. What was the color of the hair in the picture?

Mr. Smith. Brown.

Mr. Ball. What did you see? What did you tell the FBI agent about the appearance of the man in the picture?

Mr. Smith. I said it looked more like him than it did on television.

Mr. Ball. And did you think when he showed you the picture that it looked anything like the man you had seen running away?

Mr. Smith. What I saw of him; yes.

Mr. Ball. First time you ever saw this man was after you heard these shots?

Mr. Smith. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Is that right? You had never seen him walking?

Mr. Smith. No.

Mr. Ball. You hadn't seen him walking in front of the house——

Mr. Smith. No, sir.

Mr. Ball. Where you were standing?

Mr. Smith. No, sir.

Mr. Ball. What kind of clothes did he have on when he shot the officer?

Mr. Smith. He had on dark pants—just a minute. He had on dark pants and a sport coat of some kind. I can't really remember very well.

Mr. Ball. I will show you a coat——

Mr. Smith. This looks like it.

Mr. Ball. This is Commission's Exhibit 162, a grey, zippered jacket. Have you ever seen this before?

Mr. Smith. Yes, sir; that looks like what he had on. A jacket.

Mr. Ball. That is the jacket he had on?

Mr. Smith. Yes.

Mr. Ball. Now, when the deposition is completed it will be written up and you will have a right to look it over and sign it, or if you want to you can waive your signature. They will accept your waiver and send it on to the Commission without it. Do you have any choice on that?

Mr. Smith. I will sign it. It don't make any difference to me.

Mr. Ball. Would you just as leave waive your signature?

Mr. Smith. Ever what that means.

Mr. Ball. That means you don't have to sign it.

Mr. Smith. I will sign it.

Mr. Ball. Do you want to sign it?

Mr. Smith. Yes; I will sign it.

Mr. Ball. Okay. Do you have a telephone number?

Mr. Smith. No, sir.

Mr. Ball. Well, the young lady will notify you when you can come in and sign it.

I thank you very much.


TESTIMONY OF GEORGE JEFFERSON APPLIN, JR.

The testimony of George Jefferson Applin, Jr. was taken at 4:05 p.m., on April 2, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. Ball. Will you stand up, Mr. Applin, and we—raise your right hand to be sworn, please.

Mr. Applin. Yes.

Mr. Ball. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give for this Commission will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. Applin. I do.

Mr. Ball. Will you be seated, please, and state your name for the record.

86 Mr. Applin. George Jefferson Applin, Jr.

Mr. Ball. Where do you live?

Mr. Applin. 714 East Hull, Denison, Tex.

Mr. Ball. What is your occupation?

Mr. Applin. Well, my occupation, common laborer, but I am working for Phillips 66 there in Denison, service station.

Mr. Ball. You have come into Dallas from Denison, haven't you?

Mr. Applin. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Well, that is about 68 miles?

Mr. Applin. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. And you are entitled to get compensation for your transportation?

Mr. Applin. Yes.

Mr. Ball. And we'll have your name and address in the record, and I will try to make arrangements for that information to take care of your expenses. You came in when? This morning?

Mr. Applin. No; it was about 15 minutes after 2 o'clock, when I came in here.

Mr. Ball. Came into Dallas?

Mr. Applin. Yes.

Mr. Ball. And——

Mr. Applin. No; I was here at 2 o'clock, but I had a flat and my car stalled on me about three or four blocks over.

Mr. Ball. And you intend to return home tonight, do you?

Mr. Applin. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. So, you won't have any hotel expense, will you?

Mr. Applin. No, sir.

Mr. Ball. Now, tell me something about yourself, where you were born and where you went to school, and how far in school, what you have done since then?

Mr. Applin. Well, I was born in Madona Hospital in Denison, and lived there pretty near all my life.

Mr. Ball. How old are you?

Mr. Applin. Twenty-two.

Mr. Ball. Did you go to school?

Mr. Applin. Yes, sir; I went to LaMar School and junior high.

Mr. Ball. And how far did you go? Finished junior high?

Mr. Applin. No, sir; I went to the eighth grade.

Mr. Ball. Have you been beyond the eighth grade?

Mr. Applin. No, sir.

Mr. Ball. What did you do after that?

Mr. Applin. Well, I helped my daddy some, and got odd jobs and stuff.

Mr. Ball. Live with your mother now?

Mr. Applin. Yes, sir; I do. I live with my parents.

Mr. Ball. Your mother and father?

Mr. Applin. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. You have been doing mostly common labor, have you?

Mr. Applin. Yes, sir; mostly common labor.

Mr. Ball. Ever been in trouble with the law of any sort?

Mr. Applin. Yes, sir; I have.

Mr. Ball. What kind of trouble?

Mr. Applin. Burglary.

Mr. Ball. When was that?

Mr. Applin. In 1963.

Mr. Ball. Did you do any time?

Mr. Applin. No, sir; I got a probated sentence for it.

Mr. Ball. That is the only trouble you have ever had?

Mr. Applin. Well, for—except for minor traffic violations.

Mr. Ball. Outside of that you haven't had any trouble?

Mr. Applin. No, sir.

Mr. Ball. Now, November 22, 1963, were you in Dallas?

Mr. Applin. Yes; I believe I was.

Mr. Ball. What were you doing here?

Mr. Applin. Well, I was working for the Rollform Corp.

Mr. Ball. How do you spell it?

87 Mr. Applin. Well, I have got one of their checks—check stubs here in my pocket, I believe. At least I think I have. Here it is [indicating].

Mr. Ball. What were you doing in Dallas?

Mr. Applin. Working.

Mr. Ball. Working here in Dallas?

Mr. Applin. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. What kind of work?

Mr. Applin. Well, I was working as, open-head crane operator, and painter and front-end loader.

Mr. Ball. Did you go to the picture show that afternoon?

Mr. Applin. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. Ball. How did you happen to be off duty that day?

Mr. Applin. They was installing a new cutting press for the rollers, and they did not need me, so, they let me off for 2 days.

Mr. Ball. For 2 days?

Mr. Applin. For 2 days.

Mr. Ball. What did you do? Go to the picture show?

Mr. Applin. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. Ball. What time of day did you go there?

Mr. Applin. Well, actually, I went to—I was over in Oak Cliff, around about, I guess, about 12 o'clock, I imagine is what time it was. I was there and the show hadn't opened up, so, I was sitting in my car listening to the radio up until the time that the show opened.

Mr. Ball. You went in the show when it opened?

Mr. Applin. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Paid your way?

Mr. Applin. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. And where did you take your seat? What part of the theatre?

Mr. Applin. About six rows down, I got in the middle aisle, about the middle of the chairs.

Mr. Ball. Middle aisle, six rows from the rear?

Mr. Applin. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. And you were how far from the middle aisle into the row of seats?

Mr. Applin. Well, about—seemed quite a little while since I thought about this. I guess I was about four or five seats over from the aisle.

Mr. Ball. From the aisle. Now, did something happen there during that showing of that picture that you remember?

Mr. Applin. Well, I know this much, Audie Murphy introduced the picture.

Mr. Ball. Then some police officers came in there?

Mr. Applin. No, sir; the lights came on.

Mr. Ball. Then what do you remember happening?

Mr. Applin. I seen the officers come down the right-hand aisle.

Mr. Ball. From the rear, or from the front?

Mr. Applin. From the rear.

Mr. Ball. Come in from the screen side, or the place you enter?

Mr. Applin. Where you enter it.

Mr. Ball. From your rear?

Mr. Applin. Yes, sir; came in on the right-hand aisle over against the wall.

Mr. Ball. Did he have anything in his hands?

Mr. Applin. Yes; I believe he had a shotgun. Might have been a rifle.

Mr. Ball. What else did you see?

Mr. Applin. Well, when I seen him, I was wondering what was the matter and what about the lights.

Mr. Ball. You got up and ran up to the front?

Mr. Applin. Went to the front to find out what was happened—was happened—happening. As I was going up an officer passed me going down and I stopped to find out.

Mr Ball. Did you ask him?

Mr. Applin. No, sir; he passed me before I got a chance to ask him.

Mr. Ball. What did he do?

Mr. Applin. Went to the front and turned around and started back up.

88 Mr. Ball. Started back up the aisle?

Mr. Applin. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Towards you?

Mr. Applin. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. And what did you see him do?

Mr. Applin. Well, he stopped and asked two boys sitting down in the front, asked them to stand up and——

Mr. Ball. Did he search them?

Mr. Applin. Yes, sir; they shuffled them down.

Mr. Ball. Did he search you?

Mr. Applin. No, sir; they came on up to Oswald, where he was sitting.

Mr. Ball. Where was he sitting?

Mr. Applin. I—he was sitting, I guess, about 3 or 4 rows down.

Mr. Ball. You mean from the rear of the theatre?

Mr. Applin. From the rear.

Mr. Ball. And how far over from the aisle?

Mr. Applin. I guess that would be about three seats. They was sitting about two or three seats.

Mr. Ball. What did you see him do?

Mr. Applin. He—started off, the officer said, "Will you stand up, please?" And he stood up.

Mr. Ball. How close were you to the officer and this man when you heard the officer say, "Stand up"?

Mr. Applin. I guess it was about—it was not over four seats down from the back, rear.

Mr. Ball. Were you at the rear?

Mr. Applin. Yes, sir; I was at the rear of the show.

Mr. Ball. You were at the rear of the show?

Mr. Applin. Yes, sir; well, there was a partition here. A partition here [indicating], and there was about, oh, I guess about four rows down from me.

Mr. Ball. All right. In other words, the officer hadn't reached you yet, when he asked Oswald to stand up?

Mr. Applin. No, sir.

Mr. Ball. You stood up and went toward the rear of the theatre, did you?

Mr. Applin. Yes.

Mr. Ball. And going to ask the officer what was going on?

Mr. Applin. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Then, you were about four rows away from where Oswald was——

Mr. Applin. Apprehended.

Mr. Ball. And did you hear the officer, what he said?

Mr. Applin. Yes, sir; heard mainly what both of them said.

Mr. Ball. What did the officer say?

Mr. Applin. The officer said, "Will you stand up, please."

Mr. Ball. What did the man say?

Mr. Applin. Well, he just stood up.

Mr. Ball. Did he say anything?

Mr. Applin. No, sir; I didn't hear him say anything at that time.

Mr. Ball. And what happened then?

Mr. Applin. Well, when he stood up, the officer stepped over to search him down. The officer, Oswald, or the man, took a swing at him. When he did, the officer grabbed him.

Mr. Ball. Took a swing at him with his fist?

Mr. Applin. Yes, sir; he did.

Mr. Ball. With his left or right?

Mr. Applin. Right fist.

Mr. Ball. Took a swing at him and what happened then?

Mr. Applin. Well, the officer, I heard him say, "Here he is." And during the proceeding of that, I guess about 5 or 10 seconds later, there was another—I think it was two officers, or one, passed me and ran down there to him.

Mr. Ball. Did you see a gun?

Mr. Applin. Well, the gun didn't come into view until after about four or five officers were there.

89 Mr. Ball. Then did you see a gun?

Mr. Applin. Yes, sir; but only—there was one gun. The pistol. It came into view before any of the other officers got there.

Mr. Ball. That is what I mean. What do you say happened about that? Who pulled a gun?

Mr. Applin. Well, anyhow, the officer was facing this way [indicating] and Oswald was facing this way [indicating]. And then the gun was pointed out that way [indicating].

Mr. Ball. Wait a minute. I can't follow you when you say it was "this way," and "this way," sir. You told me that this officer asked Oswald to stand up?

Mr. Applin. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Did he stand up?

Mr. Applin. Yes, sir; he did.

Mr. Ball. Then did he put his hand some place on Oswald?

Mr. Applin. Yes, sir; along about——

Mr. Ball. Where?

Mr. Applin. I guess about his hips.

Mr. Ball. Then what did Oswald do?

Mr. Applin. He took a right-hand swing at him.

Mr. Ball. What did the officer do?

Mr. Applin. The officer grabbed him then.

Mr. Ball. Had you seen the pistol up to that time?

Mr. Applin. No, sir; there was not one in view then.

Mr. Ball. How soon after that did you see the pistol?

Mr. Applin. I guess it was about—I guess it was about 2 or 3 seconds.

Mr. Ball. Who pulled the pistol?

Mr. Applin. I guess it was Oswald, because—for one reason, that he had on a short sleeve shirt, and I seen a man's arm that was connected to the gun.

Mr. Ball. What did the officer do?

Mr. Applin. Well, the officer was scuffling with him there, and——

Mr. Ball. Did you hear anything?

Mr. Applin. Well, about the only thing I heard was the snap of the gun and the officer saying, "Here he is."

Mr. Ball. You heard the snap of a gun?

Mr. Applin. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Are you familiar with guns?

Mr. Applin. Well, yes, sir; I am familiar with a few guns.

Mr. Ball. Pistols? Have you ever shot a pistol?

Mr. Applin. Yes, sir; I have shot my daddy's nine-shot .22 pistol.

Mr. Ball. Sounded like a hammer of a pistol falling?

Mr. Applin. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Then what happened after that? You say several officers came down?

Mr. Applin. Yes, sir; they started wrestling and scuffling with him.

Mr. Ball. How many of them?

Mr. Applin. Well, there was about five officers, I believe.

Mr. Ball. Did you see any officers strike him?

Mr. Applin. I seen one strike him with a shotgun.

Mr. Ball. How did he do it?

Mr. Applin. He grabbed the muzzle of the gun and drawed it back and swung and hit him in the back.

Mr. Ball. With what?

Mr. Applin. With the butt end of the gun.

Mr. Ball. Looked like a hard blow?

Mr. Applin. Yes, sir; it—I guess it was. You could—yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. And he struck Oswald where?

Mr. Applin. In the back.

Mr. Ball. What part of the back?

Mr. Applin. Well, somewheres along in the middle of the back, somewheres.

Mr. Ball. With the butt end of a shotgun?

Mr. Applin. Yes, sir.

90 Mr. Ball. Did you see the officer strike Oswald with his fist?

Mr. Applin. No, sir; I do not believe so.

Mr. Ball. Now, how many officers were struggling with Oswald when you saw the officer strike him with the butt end of the shotgun?

Mr. Applin. I believe about four.

Mr. Ball. Did you ever see them handcuff Oswald?

Mr. Applin. Uhuh?

Mr. Ball. Did you see them handcuff the man?

Mr. Applin. No, sir; I didn't actually see the handcuffing.

Mr. Ball. What did you see them do after the struggle?

Mr. Applin. Well, they were scuffling, and they were over to the middle, about the far side of the aisle, and come up the other side of the aisle.

Mr. Ball. With the man?

Mr. Applin. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. And then when they went out, did they come out through the doors?

Mr. Applin. Yes, sir; they came up through and one of the officers hollered out, "Don't let nobody see him," and they came in right behind me.

Mr. Ball. In behind you?

Mr. Applin. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. And went on out?

Mr. Applin. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. And did you go out and follow them out?

Mr. Applin. No, sir; I went out to the candy counter out there and the officer said, if there's anybody in there that seen it—and asked—there was about two or three, the candyman himself, and said—that one boy said that he seen him, through the front—I mean out from behind the picture where it came out—supposed to came out behind the picture.

Mr. Ball. Did you give them your name there?

Mr. Applin. He asked my name and address and where I was staying at the time.

Mr. Ball. Later did you go down to the police station and make a statement?

Mr. Applin. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. Ball. When?

Mr. Applin. Well, it was after—I guess after they got everybody's name. I rode down with three officers.

Mr. Ball. That same day, did you?

Mr. Applin. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. You didn't go back to the picture show?

Mr. Applin. Yes, sir; I did. There was a patrolman that carried me back out and I was going to see the rest of it, but I never did get back in time to.

Mr. Ball. You didn't get to see the show?

Mr. Applin. Well, I seen part of it, but I didn't get to see all of it.

Mr. Ball. Did you ever see the man they arrested at the theatre?

Mr. Applin. No, sir; I didn't see him after that.

Mr. Ball. Now, I have talked to you a little while before we took your deposition, didn't I?

Mr. Applin. I wasn't actually; no, sir.

Mr. Ball. Well, I mean, you and I came up——

Mr. Applin. Oh, yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. And we sat and talked a few minutes?

Mr. Applin. Yes, sir; we did.

Mr. Ball. And you have told us everything that you told me before——

Mr. Applin. This was taken here?

Mr. Ball. Before it was taken.

Mr. Applin. Yes; I believe I did.

Mr. Ball. This will be written up, and you will have a chance to read it and sign it. You can waive your signature and we'll forward it to the Commission just as you have said it here in the way this young lady has written it up. Does it make any difference to you now?

Mr. Applin. No, sir; it don't make any difference. Anyway you do it.

Mr. Ball. You are waiving your signature then, are you?

Mr. Applin. Well, I will sign it if you want me to.

91 Mr. Ball. You don't have to if you don't want to. In other words, but you may if you want to.

Mr. Applin. I can sign it. If I sign it then you won't have any trouble with it, will you?

Mr. Ball. Well, no.

Mr. Applin. Well, then, I will sign it for you then.

Mr. Ball. Okay, fine, that is all, Mr. Applin.

Mr. Applin. But, there is one thing puzzling me.

Mr. Ball. What is that?

Mr. Applin. And I don't even know if it has any bearing on the case, but there was one guy sitting in the back row right there where I was standing at, and I said to him, I said, "Buddy, you'd better move. There is a gun." And he says—just sat there. He was just back like this. Just like this. Just watching.

Mr. Ball. Just watching the show?

Mr. Applin. No; I don't think he could have seen the show. Just sitting just like this, just looking at me.

Mr. Ball. Did you know the man?

Mr. Applin. No; I didn't.

Mr. Ball. Ever seen him since?

Mr. Applin. No, sir; didn't. I tapped him on the shoulder and said, "Buddy, you'd better move," and——

Mr. Ball. Were you scared?

Mr. Applin. Well, when I seen the gun I was.

Mr. Ball. Did you tell the police officer about this man?

Mr. Applin. No, sir; at the time, I didn't think about it, but I did tell—I didn't even think about it when I went before the Secret Service man, but I did tell one of the FBI men about it.

Mr. Ball. Okay. I guess that is all, Mr. Applin. Thank you very much.

Mr. Applin. All right.


TESTIMONY OF RAY HAWKINS

The testimony of Ray Hawkins was taken at 9:50 a.m., on April 3, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. Ball. Will you raise your hand and take the oath, please?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give before this Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. Hawkins. I do.

Mr. Ball. Will you state your name, please?

Mr. Hawkins. Ray Hawkins.

Mr. Ball. And your address, where do you live now?

Mr. Hawkins. 7319 Cortland as of today. I am moving today.

Mr. Ball. What is your business or occupation?

Mr. Hawkins. I am with the Dallas Police Department. I am an accident investigator.

Mr. Ball. How long have you been with the Dallas Police Department?

Mr. Hawkins. It will be 11 years in June.

Mr. Ball. Tell me something about yourself—where you were born and your education and what you have done?

Mr. Hawkins. I was born in Dallas at Parkland Hospital. I attended the Dallas schools except for 2 years when I lived in Denison and I served 3 years and 4 months in the Coast Guard. I worked at the post office after getting out of the service and then I worked for Dallas Power & Light before coming to the police department some 11 years ago. I have been in the traffic division 892 years last month, which my primary duty is accident investigation. Before this time I served about 3 years in the radio patrol division.

Mr. Ball. On November 22, 1963, you were on duty, were you?

Mr. Hawkins. Yes, sir; I was.

Mr. Ball. What were your hours of duty?

Mr. Hawkins. I was working the 7 a.m. to 3 p.m. shift that day.

Mr. Ball. And were you assigned some special duty because of the presence of the President in the city?

Mr. Hawkins. No, sir; on this day I was working accidents, which is my regular duty. I was working with an officer by the name of Elmer Baggett who had just transferred back into accident and I was giving him a refresher course in the regular duties of accident investigation.

Mr. Ball. Do you work in uniform?

Mr. Hawkins. Yes, sir; I do.

Mr. Ball. In the regular patrolman's uniform?

Mr. Hawkins. Yes.

Mr. Ball. Of the Dallas Police Department?

Mr. Hawkins. Yes—the regular patrolman uniform.

Mr. Ball. You drive an automobile?

Mr. Hawkins. Yes; I do.

Mr. Ball. Is it a marked police car?

Mr. Hawkins. Yes—it is the blue and white marked police car.

Mr. Ball. And where were you around 1 o'clock?

Mr. Hawkins. I'm not sure on the time—around it—if it was about the time of the assassination—I was—we were on an accident in the 2500 block of North Industrial, or in that vicinity, the first I had heard anything about this accident.

Mr. Ball. You and your partner?

Mr. Hawkins. Yes.

Mr. Ball. And did you hear the President had been killed?

Mr. Hawkins. Yes, I did.

Mr. Ball. Now, did you later hear that Officer Tippit had been killed?

Mr. Hawkins. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. Ball. Did you make a note of the time, or do you have any memory of the approximate time that you heard that report?

Mr. Hawkins. I would say in the vicinity of around 1 p.m.—I'm not sure what time it was, because I didn't make any notes. As I said, we were on an accident at the time—I cleared from the call about the time we heard this information.

Mr. Ball. And you got that information over the police radio?

Mr. Hawkins. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. Ball. Tell me, did you receive any instructions as to what to do?

Mr. Hawkins. No, sir; I did not. They called—I heard a citizen come in on the radio and state that an officer had been shot and it looked like he was dead. We had just finished the accident at this time and I was driving an officer, Baggett, and I proceeded to Oak Cliff to the general vicinity of the call after checking out with the dispatcher, stating that we were proceeding in that direction.

We arrived in Oak Cliff and there were several squads in the general vicinity of where the shooting had occurred—different stories had come out that the person was—the suspect had been seen in the immediate vicinity.

Mr. Ball. Did you go to 10th and Patton?

Mr. Hawkins. We drove by 10th and Patton—we didn't stop at the location.

Mr. Ball. Where did you go then?

Mr. Hawkins. We circled the vicinity around Jefferson and Marsalis and in that area, talking to several people on the street, asking if they had seen anyone running up the alley or running down the street, and then they received a call, or I believe Officer Walker put out a call that he had just seen a white man running to the Oak Cliff Library, at which time we proceeded to this location. Officer Hutson had gotten into the car with us when we arrived in Oak Cliff, and there were three of us in the squad car—Officer Baggett, Officer Hutson, and myself.

Mr. Ball. Hutson is also a patrolman?

93 Mr. Hawkins. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. A uniformed patrolman?

Mr. Hawkins. Yes, sir; he is a three-wheel officer. We went to the library and this turned out to be an employee of the library who had heard of the news and was apparently running in the library to tell the other employees there.

We then, after this checked out, we then continued circling in the area around 10th and Patton and Marsalis and Jefferson.

We then heard on the police radio that a suspicious person was at the Texas Theatre, and at this time we proceeded to the theatre.

Mr. Ball. Where did you park?

Mr. Hawkins. I parked my squad car in the alley at the rear of the theatre.

Mr. Ball. Then, what did you do?

Mr. Hawkins. Officer—I believe Officer McDonald was at the back door at the time and Officer Hutson and Captain Westbrook and Officer Walker and myself went in the rear door, all went to the rear door, and at this time we saw a white male there and began talking to him and he identified himself as being the manager of a shoe store next door and that he was the person who had noted the suspicious acting on the suspect, and he at that time was brought into the rear of the theatre and on the stage and he pointed the person out sitting about three or four rows from the back of the theatre on the right hand or the south side.

Mr. Ball. That would be near the right aisle as you face the screen?

Mr. Hawkins. Yes, sir; near the right aisle as you face the screen about four rows from the rear of the theatre.

Mr. Ball. And how many seats over from the right aisle?

Mr. Hawkins. I would say probably three or four—I don't remember exactly.

Mr. Ball. Now, at that time you were standing behind the screen, were you?

Mr. Hawkins. No; we had walked out onto the stage itself and could see the people sitting in the show—the house lights had been turned on—the show was still going on, but we did walk out onto the stage.

Mr. Ball. And did you later learn that the man's name was Brewer?

Mr. Hawkins. The man whom I had been talking to?

Mr. Ball. Yes; the shoe salesman.

Mr. Hawkins. I don't remember what his name is, but I think he did identify himself and we did have his name.

Mr. Ball. Were you armed?

Mr. Hawkins. Yes, sir; I was.

Mr. Ball. With what?

Mr. Hawkins. I had my Service .38 revolver.

Mr. Ball. Did you have it out or was it in your holster?

Mr. Hawkins. I believe I had it out.

Mr. Ball. What did you do with it?

Mr. Hawkins. At that time, after he pointed out the person, Officer McDonald had started up the left aisle and he stopped and talked to two boys who were sitting about three rows in front of where Oswald was sitting. I continued up the north aisle or the left aisle as you would walk toward the screen, and then Officer McDonald had walked on back to this person who was seated back there.

Mr. Ball. He was—he walked over to the right aisle, did he?

Mr. Hawkins. He walked from the right aisle and came in from the person's right. I was about three rows from—still in the same aisle, on the left aisle and about three rows from McDonald and Oswald when I heard him say, "I've got him," or "This is it," or some words to that effect.

Mr. Ball. Did you hear Oswald say anything?

Mr. Hawkins. Not at that time; no, sir; I did not.

Mr. Ball. What happened then?

Mr. Hawkins. They had a scuffle and I immediately ran to the location. Officer Hutson had come in the aisle behind Oswald and McDonald and Officer Walker had come in on the left-hand side and I came up in the front. I grabbed his left hand and then immediately took my handcuffs out and put them on his left hand and we brought his right arm around as soon as the gun had been removed and handcuffed his right arm with both hands behind his back.

Mr. Ball. Now, did you see Oswald strike Officer McDonald?

94 Mr. Hawkins. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. Ball. With what—with his fist?

Mr. Hawkins. It appeared he struck him with his fist.

Mr. Ball. Which one?

Mr. Hawkins. Right fist.

Mr. Ball. What was Officer McDonald doing at that time?

Mr. Hawkins. I remember seeing him standing beside Oswald, and when I arrived where they were, both of them were down in the seat—Oswald and McDonald had both fallen down into the seat, and very shortly after I got there, a gun was pulled, came out of Oswald's belt and was pulled across to their right, or toward the south aisle of the theatre.

Officer McDonald grabbed the pistol, and the best I can remember, Sergeant Hill, who had gotten there, said, "I've got the gun," and he took the gun and we handcuffed Oswald.

Mr. Ball. Did you hear any snap of the hammer?

Mr. Hawkins. I heard something that I thought was a snap. I didn't know whether it was a snap of a pistol—I later learned that they were sure it was. I didn't know whether it was a snap of the gun or whether it was in the seats someone making the noise.

Mr. Ball. There was some noise you heard?

Mr. Hawkins. Yes, sir; there was.

Mr. Ball. You couldn't identify it?

Mr. Hawkins. No, sir; I don't think so—I don't think I could say for sure.

Mr. Ball. Did you see anybody strike Oswald with his fist?

Mr. Hawkins. No, sir; I didn't see anyone strike him. They had, as I said, they had gotten back into the seat and officer Hutson had grabbed Oswald from behind and Officer Walker had him by the left arm and the gun went across and McDonald had grabbed him by the right hand and Sergeant Hill grabbed the gun and at this time I handcuffed his left hand. There were several officers shortly after that arrived at the scene.

Mr. Ball. Did you see any officer there with a shotgun?

Mr. Hawkins. I don't recall any officers. I know I had seen some officers with a shotgun, but I don't recall whether any officer had one, but it is possible that they did have.

Mr. Ball. The men who were struggling with Oswald were first, McDonald, and you——

Mr. Hawkins. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. And who was the other man?

Mr. Hawkins. Now, Officer Hutson had gotten behind Oswald prior to the time I got there and then also Walker was on the left-hand side—on the left hand.

Mr. Ball. Oswald's left?

Mr. Hawkins. Oswald's left.

Mr. Ball. And who was on the right?

Mr. Hawkins. McDonald.

Mr. Ball. And what about Bob Carroll, did he come in there too?

Mr. Hawkins. Well, I'm sure Bob was in there. I couldn't say where he was exactly or—I do remember Sergeant Hill being there, and I believe he said, "I've got the gun." I think I read an account of where Bob Carroll may have had the gun, but I was under the impression it was Sergeant Hill. I'm sure Bob was there, but I don't know exactly—it was all happening pretty fast.

Mr. Ball. Did any one of these men you have described around Oswald have a shotgun?

Mr. Hawkins. I don't believe any of them—at the time that they were standing directly around Oswald, had a shotgun—I may be mistaken.

Mr. Ball. A witness testified yesterday that while they were struggling with Oswald, a police officer took a gun and took it by the muzzle and struck Oswald in the back with the rifle butt; did you see anything like that?

Mr. Hawkins. No; I did not. I couldn't say that it did not happen. I didn't see from the back, but I do know that Officer Hutson was standing behind him and had grabbed him around the neck and I'm sure that he did not have a gun.

Mr. Ball. Hutson did not have a shotgun?

95 Mr. Hawkins. No, sir; he did not.

Mr. Ball. Did Oswald say anything during this struggle?

Mr. Hawkins. I don't recall anything he said during the struggle—I do recall some remarks that he made about—that he had certain rights and that he would see "about this police brutality" or some remark he made about—that he had rights and he wasn't being handled right or something of this nature.

Mr. Ball. Did you see anybody strike Oswald during the struggle except in the grabbing and holding of him—I know you grabbed him and held him, but did you see anybody strike him a blow?

Mr. Hawkins. No, sir; I did not see anyone strike him a blow.

Mr. Ball. Afterwards, did you notice any marks on Oswald's face?

Mr. Hawkins. I did notice, not at that time, but I did notice, however, after I saw him on television that he had a bruise on the right side of his face.

Mr. Ball. Did you see that bruise there at the theatre?

Mr. Hawkins. Not at the theatre; no, sir.

Mr. Ball. Were you with the group of officers that took him from the theatre?

Mr. Hawkins. I was walking with the group—I was not immediately beside Oswald. At this time, I believe, Officer Walker and possibly Officer Lyons and Paul Bentley and I don't remember, but I believe those three were one of the three and maybe Sergeant Hill. We handcuffed him and after we had handcuffed him we walked him out to the left and immediately to the car in front. They put him in the car—I was standing beside the car and then I worked traffic for them to get out.

Mr. Ball. As he was going out of the theatre, was he shouting or yelling?

Mr. Hawkins. Was he?

Mr. Ball. Yes.

Mr. Hawkins. I don't remember him saying anything except this about that he had certain rights and the police brutality.

Mr. Ball. Did he say that as he was leaving the theatre, or did he say that in the theatre?

Mr. Hawkins. It seemed like we were still in the theatre. After we got outside, I couldn't hear him say anything. There was a large crowd out front and they all started yelling when we came out the front door.

Mr. Ball. A witness testified yesterday that as the police brought Oswald from the theatre to the car, that two men were standing beside him, were walking beside him, and that another officer had his arm around his neck and under his chin so as to close his mouth—did you see anything like that?

Mr. Hawkins. I don't remember seeing this. I walked out—the best I can remember—I was behind the group and there were at least three officers, I am sure, directly around him and maybe more, but I was behind him and walked up behind him—I don't recall anyone having him around the neck at that time.

Mr. Ball. Did you do any more work on the investigation of the assassination of the President or the killing of Tippit?

Mr. Hawkins. No, sir; the only thing I did following this—we went to the personnel bureau and made a statement, or wrote a report on the arrest, and that was the last thing I had done.

Mr. Ball. Did you see the pistol at the personnel bureau?

Mr. Hawkins. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. Ball. Did you see McDonald mark it?

Mr. Hawkins. Did I see McDonald mark it?

Mr. Ball. Yes.

Mr. Hawkins. Yes, sir; McDonald, and I believe Sergeant Hill marked it or possibly Bob Carroll. There were, I believe, two people who marked it.

Mr. Ball. Did you see anybody unload the gun?

Mr. Hawkins. No, sir; not unload it. I believe the gun was unloaded whenever I got there, but they put Oswald in the car and three or four men rode with him and then Officer Baggett and I came back to the station and it was probably 30 to 45 minutes after they got there that we arrived at the station.

Mr. Ball. Did you see the bullets?

Mr. Hawkins. I saw the bullets—yes, sir.

96 Mr. Ball. Did you ever examine them closely?

Mr. Hawkins. I looked at them and one of them appeared to have a small indentation where it looked like it might have been struck and did not fire.

Mr. Ball. I think that's all, officer.

Now, this will be written up and you can read it and sign it, or you can waive signature—just as you wish—which do you prefer?

Mr. Hawkins. I would just as soon sign it.

Mr. Ball. All right, we will have you sign it.

Mr. Hawkins. All right.

Mr. Ball. Thank you very much.

Mr. Hawkins. Will you notify me when you want me to sign it?

Mr. Ball. We will give you a telephone call.

Mr. Hawkins. You will give me a telephone call?

Mr. Ball. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hawkins. All right.

Mr. Ball. Thank you very much.


TESTIMONY OF L. D. MONTGOMERY

The testimony of L. D. Montgomery was taken at 4:50 p.m., on April 6, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Messrs. Joseph A. Ball, John Hart Ely, and Samuel A. Stern, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Dr. Alfred Goldberg, historian, was present.

Mr. Ball. Will you stand up and be sworn?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give before the Commission will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. Montgomery. I do.

Mr. Ball. Be seated and state your name, please.

Mr. Montgomery. L. D. Montgomery.

Mr. Ball. And what is your occupation?

Mr. Montgomery. Police officer.

Mr. Ball. You are called before the Commission to give such information as you have as to the assassination of President Kennedy, and you have been advised by your superiors, have you, that we have requested your presence here?

Mr. Montgomery. I have been over here twice now already.

Mr. Ball. You have been here before?

Mr. Montgomery. Yes; I gave one deposition on this.

Mr. Ball. And that had to do with what subject?

Mr. Montgomery. Well, they covered about all of it, really.

Mr. Ball. Have you already testified as to the search of this Texas State Book Depository?

Mr. Montgomery. Well, sir; some of that was in there—yes, sir. Mr. Griffin took it.

Mr. Ball. Did he ask you about the time you went down to the sixth floor of the Texas State Book Depository?

Mr. Montgomery. Yes; I discussed all that, but I don't believe it's in that deposition; now, I don't believe it was in the typed deposition.

Mr. Ball. I had better ask you the questions now.

How long have you been on the police force?

Mr. Montgomery. I have been on down there 9 years.

Mr. Ball. What is your job?

Mr. Montgomery. Detective in the homicide bureau.

Mr. Ball. On November 22, 1963, were you on duty?

Mr. Montgomery. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. What time did you go to work that day?

97 Mr. Montgomery. Let me see, that morning I was working 8 to 4.

Mr. Ball. And to what work were you assigned?

Mr. Montgomery. Well, that particular morning at that time we was trying to round up some hijackers.

Mr. Ball. Were you sent down to the Texas State Book Depository?

Mr. Montgomery. Yes, sir; I was.

Mr. Ball. What time did you get there?

Mr. Montgomery. I got there, I guess—it was about 12:40 or 12:45.

Mr. Ball. And what did you do when you got there?

Mr. Montgomery. I reported to the sixth floor there.

Mr. Ball. Did you take part in the search of the sixth floor?

Mr. Montgomery. Well, first I reported to Captain Fritz, my partner and I, and he assigned us to this position over there where the boxes were.

Mr. Ball. Where was that?

Mr. Montgomery. It would be what—the southeast corner of the building—over there from where the shooting took place.

Mr. Ball. Well, was that before the cartridges had been found or afterwards?

Mr. Montgomery. No, sir; they had been found when we got there.

Mr. Ball. When you got there they had been found already?

Mr. Montgomery. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. What about the rifle, had it been found?

Mr. Montgomery. No, sir; it hadn't.

Mr. Ball. The rifle was found after you got there?

Mr. Montgomery. Yes.

Mr. Ball. Did you see anything else over in the southeast corner of that sixth floor?

Mr. Montgomery. Well, sir, as I say, there was a lot of boxes and there was a sack and there was this pieces of chicken.

Mr. Ball. Was there a piece of chicken over there?

Mr. Montgomery. Yes, sir—there was chicken bones and what not—it looked like somebody had been eating chicken there.

Mr. Ball. Where was that?

Mr. Montgomery. It was right there with the boxes—right there on the floor.

Mr. Ball. On the floor?

Mr. Montgomery. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. All right.

Mr. Montgomery. Well, let me see, there was one piece of chicken on a box and there was a piece on the floor—just kind of scattered around right there.

Mr. Ball. Where was the paper sack?

Mr. Montgomery. Let's see—the paper sack—I don't recall for sure if it was on the floor or on the box, but I know it was just there—one of those pictures might show exactly where it was.

Mr. Ball. I don't have a picture of the paper sack.

Mr. Montgomery. You don't? Well, it was there—I can't recall for sure if it was on one of the boxes or on the floor there.

Mr. Ball. It was over in what corner?

Mr. Montgomery. It would be the southeast corner of the building there where the shooting was.

Mr. Ball. Did you turn the sack over to anybody or did you pick it up?

Mr. Montgomery. Yes—let's see—Lieutenant Day and Detective Studebaker came up and took pictures and everything, and then we took a Dr. Pepper bottle and that sack that we found that looked like the rifle was wrapped up in.

Mr. Ball. Now, where was the Dr. Pepper bottle?

Mr. Montgomery. It was over a little more to the west of that window.

Mr. Ball. There was a sack of chicken bones with that—near that Dr. Pepper bottle?

Mr. Montgomery. No; the Dr. Pepper bottle, the best I can recall, was sitting over there by itself.

Mr. Ball. Where was the sack with the chicken in it?

98 Mr. Montgomery. It was right around where the boxes were—where the hulls there were.

Mr. Ball. The picture was taken of the sack by Mr. Studebaker, and he said it was the third set of windows near the little two-wheel truck?

Mr. Montgomery. Over there by the Dr. Pepper bottle.

Mr. Ball. Correct.

Mr. Montgomery. I was thinking it was right there—it was probably that other sack I'm thinking about—the one we found on the floor there that was used.

Mr. Ball. Here are two pictures, which are Exhibits H and I in the Studebaker depositions, which show the paper sack and the Dr. Pepper bottle and a two-wheel truck, and that is in Exhibit H, and Exhibit I shows the Dr. Pepper bottle and a two-wheel truck.

Mr. Montgomery. Is this the sack right here, now?

Mr. Ball. That's right—do you remember that?

Mr. Montgomery. I don't remember the sack being right there—I remember it was there somewhere, but exactly—I don't.

Mr. Ball. Evidently you don't know?

Mr. Montgomery. No, sir.

Mr. Ball. Now, was there some more chicken some place there also?

Mr. Montgomery. Yes—there would be some more chicken over here around where the hulls were found.

Mr. Ball. Now, I will show you a picture of——

Mr. Montgomery. I know there was one piece laying up on top of the box there.

Mr. Ball. I show you a picture which is Exhibit J, which shows some boxes in the picture that's in the southeast corner there.

Mr. Montgomery. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Can you tell me where the chicken was?

Mr. Montgomery. I believe it was right up on these boxes right along in there. There's some boxes coming along in there.

Mr. Ball. Coming along in there—you mean it's outside of the view of the pictures?

Mr. Montgomery. Yes, sir; right along in here.

Mr. Ball. And that would be to the north, of that point?

Mr. Montgomery. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. And what did you see on top of those boxes?

Mr. Montgomery. There was one piece of chicken there.

Mr. Ball. Partially eaten?

Mr. Montgomery. Yes; I believe it was partially eaten—on that picture right there—I was just looking at.

Mr. Ball. That's Exhibit J.

Mr. Montgomery. Right over here is where we found that long piece of paper that looked like a sack, that the rifle had been in.

Mr. Ball. Does that have a number—that area—where you found that long piece of paper?

Mr. Montgomery. It's No. 2 right here.

Mr. Ball. You found the sack in the area marked 2 on Exhibit J to the Studebaker deposition. Did you pick the sack up?

Mr. Montgomery. Which sack are we talking about now?

Mr. Ball. The paper sack?

Mr. Montgomery. The small one or the larger one?

Mr. Ball. The larger one you mentioned that was in position 2.

Mr. Montgomery. Yes.

Mr. Ball. You picked it up?

Mr. Montgomery. Wait just a minute—no; I didn't pick it up. I believe Mr. Studebaker did. We left it laying right there so they could check it for prints.

Mr. Ball. Did you question any witnesses that day?

Mr. Montgomery. Let's see—that particular day—no, sir; I don't believe I talked to a witness that day.

Mr. Ball. Did you talk to any witnesses at any time?

99 Mr. Montgomery. Not to the assassination—no, sir.

Mr. Ball. Did you talk to witnesses that had anything to do with the shooting of Tippit?

Mr. Montgomery. Well, we went out and got two of them and brought them down.

Mr. Ball. Who were they?

Mr. Montgomery. Let's see, there was a taxicab driver—Whaley—one of them was Mr. Whaley and there was another one.

Mr. Ball. Was there a Mr. Scoggins?

Mr. Montgomery. That could be his name—I just don't recall.

Mr. Ball. Do you have a report that you made of what you did?

Mr. Montgomery. I didn't take an affidavit from him—no, sir; I took one from Mr. Whaley.

Mr. Ball. Now, did you attend a showup?

Mr. Montgomery. No, sir; I didn't attend any showups.

Mr. Ball. You didn't?

Mr. Montgomery. No.

Mr. Ball. But you took an affidavit from Mr. Whaley?

Mr. Montgomery. From Mr. Whaley—yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Were you ever present at any time when Oswald was questioned?

Mr. Montgomery. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Where was that?

Mr. Montgomery. That would be the Sunday morning of the 24th, just prior to transferring him.

Mr. Ball. Where was that?

Mr. Montgomery. That would be in Captain Fritz' office in the city hall.

Mr. Ball. Who was present, if you remember?

Mr. Montgomery. Well, there was Detective Leavelle, Detective Graves, Detective Dhority, Captain Fritz, and Mr. Sorrels, and Mr. Kelley.

Mr. Ball. Do you know what was said?

Mr. Montgomery. Yes, sir; they just asked him several questions there as to why he shot the President and he said he didn't shoot the President, and Captain Fritz asked Mr. Sorrels if he would like to ask him a question and Mr. Sorrels would ask him one and then Mr. Kelley would ask him one—they would ask him about life in Russia.

Mr. Ball. Do you remember anything else?

Mr. Montgomery. No, sir; that's about all the questions I recall.

Mr. Ball. Then, was Oswald handcuffed at that time, during the questioning?

Mr. Montgomery. At that time, I don't believe he was—no, sir.

Mr. Ball. Did you leave with him?

Mr. Montgomery. Did I leave with who—now?

Mr. Ball. Leave Fritz' office with him.

Mr. Montgomery. When we started to transfer him, of course, we all went down on the elevator with him.

Mr. Ball. He was handcuffed to whom?

Mr. Montgomery. Detective Leavelle.

Mr. Ball. And were you with the group that was taking him, transporting him?

Mr. Montgomery. Yes.

Mr. Ball. And you have already testified, I guess, as to what happened there?

Mr. Montgomery. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. I think that's all. This will be reduced to writing and it can be submitted to you for your signature, or you can waive signature, if you wish. Which do you prefer?

Mr. Montgomery. It doesn't make any difference to me.

Mr. Ball. Do you want to waive your signature?

Mr. Montgomery. I can waive it and save having to come back and sign it

Mr. Ball. That will be all right with you?

Mr. Montgomery. Yes, sir; that's fine.

Mr. Ball. Thank you very much for coming back.

Mr. Montgomery. You bet.


100

TESTIMONY OF MARVIN JOHNSON

The testimony of Marvin Johnson was taken at 4 p.m., on April 6, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. Belin. Would you want to stand and raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. Johnson. I do.

Mr. Belin. Would you please state your name?

Mr. Johnson. Marvin Johnson.

Mr. Belin. Where do you live, Mr. Johnson?

Mr. Johnson. Route 3, Box 279, Terrell, Tex.

Mr. Belin. What is your occupation?

Mr. Johnson. Police officer.

Mr. Belin. For whom?

Mr. Johnson. Employed by the city of Dallas.

Mr. Belin. Were you born and raised in Texas?

Mr. Johnson. Yes, sir.

Mr. Belin. Go to school in Texas?

Mr. Johnson. Yes, sir.

Mr. Belin. How far did you go through high school?

Mr. Johnson. I finished the eighth grade.

Mr. Belin. You finished the eighth grade?

Mr. Johnson. Yes.

Mr. Belin. Then what did you do?

Mr. Johnson. Went to work.

Mr. Belin. By way of general background, what kind of work did you do?

Mr. Johnson. I started out working with a dairy, and dairy farm. And went from that to ice route. From there I went to work at North American Aircraft, and then the Army.

Mr. Belin. When did you go in the Army?

Mr. Johnson. Infantry.

Mr. Belin. When was that?

Mr. Johnson. 1944. September 1944.

Mr. Belin. Then you were discharged in 1946?

Mr. Johnson. February 1946; yes, sir.

Mr. Belin. Honorably discharged?

Mr. Johnson. Yes, sir.

Mr. Belin. Then what did you do?

Mr. Johnson. Then I went back to Aircraft.

Mr. Belin. How long did you work in Aircraft?

Mr. Johnson. I worked there 11 months that time, and they had a layoff. I got laid off, and I went back to peddling ice, and peddled ice for about 6 months. Well, one summer. Then that is when I went to Terrell and went in the dairy business for myself.

Mr. Belin. You went what?

Mr. Johnson. I went to Terrell and went in the dairy business for myself.

Mr. Belin. Yes.

Mr. Johnson. Then I had that 5 years, and then came here.

Mr. Belin. So you have been with the Dallas Police Department since what year?

Mr. Johnson. 1953.

Mr. Belin. How old are you?

Mr. Johnson. Forty-three.

Mr. Belin. What was your position with the Dallas Police Department in November of 1963?

Mr. Johnson. Detective, assigned to the homicide and robbery bureau.

Mr. Belin. Are you still assigned to that bureau today?

101 Mr. Johnson. Yes, sir.

Mr. Belin. As a detective?

Mr. Johnson. Yes, sir.

Mr. Belin. On November 22, 1963, were you on duty?

Mr. Johnson. Yes, sir.

Mr. Belin. Did you have anything to do with the Presidential motorcade?

Mr. Johnson. No, sir.

Mr. Belin. At approximately what time did you find out about the shooting of the President, to the best of your recollection?

Mr. Johnson. Must have been about 12:40, I guess.

Mr. Belin. What did you do after you found out about it?

Mr. Johnson. Returned to the office.

Mr. Belin. Returned to your office?

Mr. Johnson. Yes.

Mr. Belin. Had you been out on duty in a patrol car away from the office at the time?

Mr. Johnson. Yes, sir. We had just made an arrest prior to checking out on a hijacking.

Mr. Belin. Did you have a chance to eat that day or not? I mean lunch.

Mr. Johnson. No, sir; didn't eat lunch.

Mr. Belin. Well, you got back to the office. Then what did you do?

Mr. Johnson. I was instructed by Lieutenant Wells to go to the Texas Book Depository.

Mr. Belin. To go to the Texas Book Depository?

Mr. Johnson. Yes.

Mr. Belin. About what time did you get there?

Mr. Johnson. Around 1 o'clock.

Mr. Belin. Where did you go when you got there?

Mr. Johnson. To the sixth floor.

Mr. Belin. Any particular reason why you went to the sixth floor?

Mr. Johnson. When we first arrived, we asked—we walked into the building and there was a uniform officer on duty there at the door, and we asked him if Captain Fritz was there, and he said yes.

And we asked him where, and he said he went on up to the sixth floor.

So at that time we were interested really in contacting Captain Fritz for any particular assignment he might want to give us, so we went on up to the sixth floor, and he was there, and that is when he assigned L. D. Montgomery, my partner and myself to the scene where the shooting occurred.

Mr. Belin. When he assigned it to you, did he say anything that this was the scene where the shooting occurred, or did he just assign an area at that time which you later found out to be the scene from which the shooting occurred?

Mr. Johnson. We had already been there a few minutes when he told us to stay there and preserve the scene. Actually at the time he told us that, we knew that that was where the shooting had occurred, because that is, the hulls were on the floor. We knew all that already.

Mr. Belin. In other words, when you got there, or when you talked to Captain Fritz, the hulls, the three hulls had already been found in a particular portion of the sixth floor, is that correct?

Mr. Johnson. Yes, sir; I had heard somebody already say. I had already seen them.

Mr. Belin. You mentioned the No. 3, is that how many there were?

Mr. Johnson. Yes.

Mr. Belin. Do you know or remember what portion of the sixth floor this was?

Mr. Johnson. Well, yes; they were underneath a window right near a window.

Mr. Belin. On what side of the building was the window on, north, east, south, or west?

Mr. Johnson. That is east. The window is actually on the south side of the building, and the window is the farthest east.

Mr. Belin. The window would be the furtherest east window on the south side of the building, is that correct?

102 Mr. Johnson. Yes.

Mr. Belin. Would you call that the southeast corner of that floor?

Mr. Johnson. Yes.

Mr. Belin. How soon after the hulls were found did you go over to see them?

Mr. Johnson. I couldn't say.

Mr. Belin. Were you there when they actually found it?

Mr. Johnson. Well, Captain Fritz was already there. There is a possibility—I am pretty sure they already found that when we got up there.

Mr. Belin. What did Captain Fritz instruct you to do?

Mr. Johnson. To remain there and protect the scene.

Mr. Belin. All right. Handing you what has already been marked "RLS Deposition Exhibit G"—the RLS stands for R. L. Studebaker—I would ask you to state if you know, whether or not these shell cases appear to be in the same position as they were when you saw them there?

Mr. Johnson. There is only two that show in that photograph, that I see.

Mr. Belin. Well, I see one, two right by the window. You see those two?

Mr. Johnson. Yes.

Mr. Belin. Then there is one over here, which would be the west, by a box that is marked from "Scott Foresman & Company." See that there?

Mr. Johnson. Yes, I see it. All I can say, at the time these hulls were mentioned, I went over there and looked. I don't remember them being that far out.

Mr. Belin. What I am asking is your best recollection. Let's take the hulls one by one. There are two hulls that appear to be right next to the bricks?

Mr. Johnson. Next to the wall; yes, sir.

Mr. Belin. Do they appear to be in the approximate position when you first saw them?

Mr. Johnson. Yes.

Mr. Belin. Does the one which is the farthest to the east appear to be as close to the next one lying at the brick wall as it was?

Mr. Johnson. Well, of course, I couldn't remember exactly how far. It was my impression that they were all three next to the wall. I could have been wrong.

Mr. Belin. Your impression, at least the best of your recollection is that this third shell which is in the picture next to the book carton, was closer to the wall?

Mr. Johnson. I thought they were all three closer to the wall.

Mr. Belin. When Captain Fritz told you to preserve the scene, what did you do?

Mr. Johnson. Now you got to remember he told L. D. Montgomery, my partner, and I to preserve the scene, and we remained there near that corner.

Now over to the right, which would be back toward the west of the window, there was a lunch sack—a brown paper bag—and some remnants of fried chicken, and a pop bottle.

And I stayed closer to that pop bottle while we were waiting for the crime lab to finish their work.

Mr. Belin. Now there was a sack and a pop bottle. Was there anything else other than the sack and the pop bottle?

Mr. Johnson. And the remnants of fried chicken.

Mr. Belin. The remnants of fried chicken, was that right by that window, or was it by another set of windows?

Mr. Johnson. That was by some other window.

Mr. Belin. Now there are, I believe, on the south side of the building, seven pairs of windows?

Mr. Johnson. I didn't count them. I couldn't say.

Mr. Belin. Would you say it was toward the east, or the west, or the center?

Mr. Johnson. Where the sack was?

Mr. Belin. Yes.

Mr. Johnson. It would be toward the west. I believe the next set of windows to my—I am pretty sure it was.

103 Mr. Belin. You said it would be in the second pair of windows counting from the east wall?

Mr. Johnson. To the west.

Mr. Belin. Is where you found it, was it between the second and the third set of windows or between the first and the second, or right by the second?

Mr. Johnson. Right by the second pair of windows.

Mr. Belin. Now you stayed over there?

Mr. Johnson. Yes, sir.

Mr. Belin. And your partner, Detective Montgomery, stayed over by the first pair of windows?

Mr. Johnson. By the corner.

Mr. Belin. By the corner window, southwest corner of the sixth floor?

Were you there when Lieutenant Day and Studebaker came in to take pictures?

Mr. Johnson. Yes, sir.

Mr. Belin. Do you know of your own personal knowledge whether anything had been moved prior to the time that they took the first set of pictures up there?

Mr. Johnson. No, sir; as far as I know, they hadn't been moved. They weren't supposed to have been, and that was our job to keep them out of there, and nobody came in there, I am pretty sure.

Mr. Belin. All right. Now, a rifle was found on the sixth floor, was it not?

Mr. Johnson. Yes, sir.

Mr. Belin. When the rifle was found, did you leave your post?

Mr. Johnson. No, sir.

Mr. Belin. What about Detective Montgomery?

Mr. Johnson. No, sir.

Mr. Belin. Did you find anything else up in the southeast corner of the sixth floor? We have talked about the rifle, we have talked about the shells, we have talked about the chicken bones and the lunch sack and the pop bottle by that second pair of windows. Anything else?

Mr. Johnson. Yes, sir. We found this brown paper sack or case. It was made out of heavy wrapping paper. Actually, it looked similar to the paper that those books was wrapped in. It was just a long narrow paper bag.

Mr. Belin. Where was this found?

Mr. Johnson. Right in the corner of the building.

Mr. Belin. On what floor?

Mr. Johnson. Sixth floor.

Mr. Belin. Which corner?

Mr. Johnson. Southeast corner.

Mr. Belin. Do you know who found it?

Mr. Johnson. I know that the first I saw of it, L. D. Montgomery, my partner, picked it up off the floor, and it was folded up, and he unfolded it.

Mr. Belin. When it was folded up, was it folded once or refolded?

Mr. Johnson. It was folded and then refolded. It was a fairly small package.

Mr. Belin. Now do you know where this sack was with relation to the first window, counting from the east portion of the south side of the building?

Mr. Johnson. It still would be over toward the east from the windows.

Mr. Belin. It would be east of the windows?

Mr. Johnson. Yes; right at the corner. Of course, those windows are not too far from the east wall, but that sack was right in the corner.

Mr. Belin. Handing you what has been marked "RLS Deposition Exhibit"—that appears to be G—it is picture No. 26, there are some pipes that appear to be in that picture, is that correct? Some vertical pipes?

Mr. Johnson. Yes, sir.

Mr. Belin. Where would the sack have been found with reference to those vertical pipes? These vertical pipes, I believe, on the south side of the sixth floor near the east corner?

Mr. Johnson. That sack would be over near the corner of the building here [pointing].

Mr. Belin. Would all the sack be east of the pipes, or would part of the sack be sticking out west of the pipes?

Mr. Johnson. The way it was folded, it would all have to be over here.

104 Mr. Belin. Your testimony then is that all the sack would have been east of the pipes. Is that correct?

Mr. Johnson. I would say that the sack was folded up here and it was east of the pipes in the corner. To the best of my memory, that is where my partner picked it up. I was standing there when he picked it up.

Mr. Belin. You were standing there when he picked it up?

Mr. Johnson. Yes, because the Crime Lab was already finished where I was, and I had already walked off to where he was.

Mr. Belin. Now there was a book carton located, one standing by itself in that picture—it would be located northeast of the pipes. Is that correct?

Mr. Johnson. Yes.

Mr. Belin. Did the sack appear to be as long as that book carton was?

Mr. Johnson. I didn't compare it to that book carton.

Mr. Belin. Let me ask you this. Do you remember book cartons there to the north of where the sack was found?

Mr. Johnson. Yes, sir. Actually, these cartons were stacked all the way around this thing.

I don't know, this book carton right here, unless that is the one that is stacked there, if I had a picture showing this whole scene—you see, there was some other cartons stacked in front of this window. Now I don't know whether this is the one that was behind them or not. This might be just one sitting out over there out of the way.

Mr. Belin. We don't have a picture here that shows all of the cartons, at least I don't have it right here at the time we are taking this deposition, that shows all of the cartons, but let me——

Mr. Johnson. Just from memory, I would say that that sack would be a little longer than those book cartons.

Mr. Belin. All right, what is the fact as to whether or not the penned rectangle on RLS Deposition Exhibit G—does any portion of that rectangle represent the place where the paper was found, assuming that is the southeast corner?

Mr. Johnson. It looks like somebody penned that in to show the sack was laying there. That would show it unfolded.

Mr. Belin. Well, what you would say then is that the penned portion is actually longer than the sack before it was unfolded, is that what you are saying?

Mr. Johnson. Yes. It shows to be here, if you are taking this as actual size.

Mr. Belin. Right. Of course, this is photographed at an angle and sometimes this can be inaccurate insofar as perspective. But would this penned in be the approximate same distance from the south wall that you saw the sack?

Mr. Johnson. Well, I couldn't say exact distance. All I know is my partner picked that up right out of that corner, and how far it was from the wall in either direction, I don't know.

Mr. Belin. Would it be somewhere in the location of where the penned in rectangle is on RLS Deposition Exhibit G?

Mr. Johnson. Yes; it would be in this corner, in the southeast corner of the building, and there were some pipes on that side. It would be in that corner—in the southeast corner of that building.

Mr. Belin. All right, is there anything else you can remember about that sack?

Mr. Johnson. No; other than like I said, my partner picked it up and we unfolded it and it appeared to be about the same shape as a rifle case would be. In other words, we made the remark that that is what he probably brought it in.

That is why, the reason we saved it.

Mr. Belin. Did you find anything else up in the sixth floor that you feel might be relevant insofar as the investigation of the assassination is concerned?

Mr. Johnson. No; I don't remember anything right off. Anything else that was preserved as evidence?

105 Mr. Belin. Yes.

Mr. Johnson. Other than I know we kept the lunch sack and the Dr. Pepper bottle.

Mr. Belin. You did keep the lunch sack?

Mr. Johnson. Sir?

Mr. Belin. You did keep the lunch sack?

Mr. Johnson. Yes, sir.

Mr. Belin. Where is it?

Mr. Johnson. We turned it into the crime lab.

Mr. Belin. You mean your police department crime lab?

Mr. Johnson. Yes, sir.

Mr. Belin. Did you ever dust it for prints or not, or do you know?

Mr. Johnson. Well, now, the lunch sack itself, sir?

Mr. Belin. Yes.

Mr. Johnson. I don't know whether they did or not. Now that sack we are talking about, it was dusted right there at the scene.

Mr. Belin. That is the long paper sack you found in the southeast corner? I mean as far as the lunch sack is concerned?

Mr. Johnson. No, the lunch sack, I don't know. We turned it in, but I never did hear after that what he did with it. I am pretty sure they did use it for something.

Mr. Belin. Anything else you can think of that is relevant in any way whatsoever to the investigation of the assassination?

Mr. Johnson. No; I don't remember anything else.

Mr. Belin. Well, we surely want to thank you for your cooperation, Mr. Johnson.

You have the right, if you desire, to read the transcription of your testimony here and then sign the deposition, or you can waive the signing and have the court reporter send it to us directly in Washington. Do you care to read it, or do you want to waive the signing of it?

Mr. Johnson. I'd better read it.

Mr. Belin. All right, you will be contacted when it is ready.


TESTIMONY OF SEYMOUR WEITZMAN

The testimony of Seymour Weitzman was taken at 2:15 p.m., on April 1, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. Ball. Mr. Weitzman, I'm Joe Ball and this is Lillian Johnson, the court reporter. Will you please stand and raise your right hand?

Mr. Weitzman. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give before this Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. Weitzman. I do.

Mr. Ball. Will you state your name?

Mr. Weitzman. Seymour Weitzman.

Mr. Ball. What is your occupation?

Mr. Weitzman. Deputy constable, Dallas County.

Mr. Ball. What is the location of your place of business?

Mr. Weitzman. Precinct 1 which is the old courthouse, third floor, room 351.

Mr. Ball. Where were you born?

Mr. Weitzman. Dallas, Tex.

Mr. Ball. Were you educated here in this State?

Mr. Weitzman. Partially here and Indiana.

Mr. Ball. How far did you go through school?

Mr. Weitzman. I went through college, graduated in engineering, 1945.

106 Mr. Ball. When did you come to Texas?

Mr. Weitzman. Do you mean back to Texas?

Mr. Ball. Back to Texas.

Mr. Weitzman. Right after the service was over and when I came out of the service.

Mr. Ball. Did you graduate from school before you went into the service?

Mr. Weitzman. I finished up after I received my discharge. I went back to Indiana to engineering school in South Bend and finished my degree in 1945.

Mr. Ball. What school?

Mr. Weitzman. Allison Division of General Motors Engineering School.

Mr. Ball. What did you do when you went to Dallas?

Mr. Weitzman. Went in business for myself.

Mr. Ball. What kind of business?

Mr. Weitzman. Dresses, garments, ladies garments.

Mr. Ball. What did you do after that?

Mr. Weitzman. I went on the road as district supervisor and manager for Holly's Dress Shops in New York, 115 Fifth Avenue, and I supervised 26 stores for them for approximately 15 years.

Mr. Ball. Then what did you do?

Mr. Weitzman. I took over as general manager of the Lamont Corp. which is a discount operation and the headquarters, which was Galveston, Tex. We had stores in Dallas, Fort Worth, Louisiana, Phoenix and Tucson, Ariz. At the end of 1960, I closed up all the stores, retired from the discount operation and went to work for Robie Love in Dallas County, precinct 1.

Mr. Ball. You've been there ever since as deputy constable?

Mr. Weitzman. That's right.

Mr. Ball. On November 22, 1963, around noon, where were you?

Mr. Weitzman. I was standing on the corner of Main and Houston.

Mr. Ball. Were you alone?

Mr. Weitzman. No, sir; I was with another deputy, Bill Hutton.

Mr. Ball. A deputy constable?

Mr. Weitzman. Yes, sir; he and I were standing there.

Mr. Ball. Did you see the President's car pass?

Mr. Weitzman. Yes, sir; we did. We watched the President pass and we turned and started back to the courthouse when we heard the shots.

Mr. Ball. You say you turned and were starting back to the courthouse—what courthouse and what is the location of that courthouse?

Mr. Weitzman. Sitting on Main, Houston, Record and so forth. We were at the back side and we turned around and were going into the Main Street entrance. We made maybe three or four steps when we heard what we thought at that time was either a rifle shot or a firecracker, I mean at that second.

Mr. Ball. How many shots did you hear?

Mr. Weitzman. Three distinct shots.

Mr. Ball. How were they spaced?

Mr. Weitzman. First one, then the second two seemed to be simultaneously.

Mr. Ball. You mean the first and then there was a pause?

Mr. Weitzman. There was a little period in between the second and third shot.

Mr. Ball. What was the longest, between the first and second or the second and third shot; which had the longest time lapse in there?

Mr. Weitzman. Between the first and second shot.

Mr. Ball. What did you do then?

Mr. Weitzman. I immediately ran toward the President's car. Of course, it was speeding away and somebody said the shots or the firecrackers, whatever it was at that time, we still didn't know the President was shot, came from the wall. I immediately scaled that wall.

Mr. Ball. What is the location of that wall?

Mr. Weitzman. It would be between the railroad overpass and I can't remember the name of that little street that runs off Elm; it's cater-corner—the section there between the—what do you call it—the monument section?

Mr. Ball. That's where Elm actually dead ends?

107 Mr. Weitzman. Yes, sir; I scaled the wall and, apparently, my hands grabbed steampipes. I burned them.

Mr. Ball. Did you go into the railroad yards?

Mr. Weitzman. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. What did you notice in the railroad yards?

Mr. Weitzman. We noticed numerous kinds of footprints that did not make sense because they were going different directions.

Mr. Ball. Were there other people there besides you?

Mr. Weitzman. Yes, sir; other officers, Secret Service as well, and somebody started, there was something red in the street and I went back over the wall and somebody brought me a piece of what he thought to be a firecracker and it turned out to be, I believe, I wouldn't quote this, but I turned it over to one of the Secret Service men and I told them it should go to the lab because it looked to me like human bone. I later found out it was supposedly a portion of the President's skull.

Mr. Ball. That you picked up off the street?

Mr. Weitzman. Yes.

Mr. Ball. What part of the street did you pick this up?

Mr. Weitzman. As the President's car was going off, it would be on the left-hand side of the street. It would be the——

Mr. Ball. The left-hand side facing——

Mr. Weitzman. That would be the south side of the street.

Mr. Ball. It was on the south side of the street. Was it in the street?

Mr. Weitzman. It was in the street itself.

Mr. Ball. On the pavement?

Mr. Weitzman. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Anywhere near the curb?

Mr. Weitzman. Approximately, oh, I would say 8 to 12 inches from the curb, something like that.

Mr. Ball. Off the record.

(Off record discussion.)

Mr. Ball. What did you do after that?

Mr. Weitzman. After that, we entered the building and started to search floor to floor and we started on the first floor, second floor, third floor and on up, when we got up to the fifth or sixth floor, I forget, I believe it was the sixth floor, the chief deputy or whoever was in charge of the floor, I forget the officer's name, from the sheriff's office, said he wanted that floor torn apart. He wanted that gun and it was there somewhere, so myself and another officer from the sheriff's department, I can't remember his name, he and I proceeded until we——

Mr. Ball. Was his name Boone?

Mr. Weitzman. That is correct, Boone and I, and as he was looking over the rear section of the building, I would say the northwest corner, I was on the floor looking under the flat at the same time he was looking on the top side and we saw the gun, I would say, simultaneously and I said, "There it is" and he started hollering, "We got it." It was covered with boxes. It was well protected as far as the naked eye because I would venture to say eight or nine of us stumbled over that gun a couple times before we thoroughly searched the building.

Mr. Ball. Did you touch it?

Mr. Weitzman. No, sir; we made a man-tight barricade until the crime lab came up and removed the gun itself.

Mr. Ball. The crime lab from the Dallas Police Department?

Mr. Weitzman. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Lieutenant Day and Captain Fritz?

Mr. Weitzman. I'm not sure what the lieutenant's name was, but I remember Captain Fritz.

Mr. Ball. Did you see Captain Fritz remove anything from the gun?

Mr. Weitzman. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. Ball. What did you do after that?

Mr. Weitzman. After that, I returned to my office and I was called down to the city that afternoon later to make a statement on what I had seen.

108 Mr. Ball. I have three pictures here which I have marked, respectively, D, E, F. I show you D first. Does that look anything like the location where you found the gun?

Mr. Weitzman. Yes, sir; this is taken the opposite side the flat I was looking under.

Mr. Ball. Looking from the top side of this picture?

Mr. Weitzman. Well, I would be looking over—Boone was looking the top side; I was looking under the flat. We were looking over everything. I was behind this section of books. I believe there were more books in here [indicating].

Mr. Ball. What do you mean "in here"?

Mr. Weitzman. In this area [indicating] because at the time we found the gun there were no boxes protruding over the gun.

Mr. Ball. In this area, you mean protruding over the gun?

Mr. Weitzman. Yes, sir; it was more hidden than there.

Mr. Ball. I show you the picture marked E. Does that look anything like the area where the gun was found?

Mr. Weitzman. Yes, sir; it does.

Mr. Ball. I show you the picture marked F. Is that another picture of the same area?

Mr. Weitzman. Yes, sir; as well as I remember, the gun was right in here [indicating].

Mr. Ball. Would you mind making a mark there with a pen? That is on F. Draw on Exhibit F, draw an arrow. The arrow in ink on F shows the location?

Mr. Weitzman. Down on the floor.

Mr. Ball. Shows the location of the gun on the floor?

Mr. Weitzman. Yes.

Mr. Ball. Was there anything between the place the gun was found; were there any boxes between where the gun was found and the stairway?

Mr. Weitzman. Yes, sir; there was a row of boxes between the stairway and the gun because we came up the stairway and we couldn't help but see it if it was in the open.

Mr. Ball. Take E here and make a mark on E as to the location of the place where the gun was found.

Mr. Weitzman. Same area.

Mr. Ball. The same area and the arrow marks the place where the gun was found?

Mr. Weitzman. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Off the record.

(Off record discussion.)

Mr. Ball. In the statement that you made to the Dallas Police Department that afternoon, you referred to the rifle as a 7.65 Mauser bolt action?

Mr. Weitzman. In a glance, that's what it looked like.

Mr. Ball. That's what it looked like—did you say that or someone else say that?

Mr. Weitzman. No; I said that. I thought it was one.

Mr. Ball. Are you fairly familiar with rifles?

Mr. Weitzman. Fairly familiar because I was in the sporting goods business awhile.

Mr. Ball. What branch of service were you in?

Mr. Weitzman. U.S. Air Force.

Mr. Ball. Did you handle rifles?

Mr. Weitzman. Mostly Thompson machine guns and pistols.

Mr. Ball. In the Air Force, what were you?

Mr. Weitzman. I started out as a flying sergeant.

Mr. Ball. You flew the plane?

Mr. Weitzman. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. How did you end up?

Mr. Weitzman. I ended up flying them; ended up in a prison camp.

Mr. Ball. Where?

Mr. Weitzman. I was overseas in Japan.

109 Mr. Ball. You also said at the time the rifle was found at 1:22 p.m., is that correct?

Mr. Weitzman. I believe that is correct. I wouldn't commit myself there because I am not sure; I'm not positive that was it.

Mr. Ball. In this statement, it says Captain Fritz took charge of the rifle and ejected one live round from the chamber.

Mr. Weitzman. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. He did eject one live round?

Mr. Weitzman. Yes, sir; he did eject one live round, one live round, yes, sir. You said remove anything from the rifle; I was not considering that a shell.

Mr. Ball. I understand that. Now, in your statement to the Federal Bureau of Investigation, you gave a description of the rifle, how it looked.

Mr. Weitzman. I said it was a Mauser-type action, didn't I?

Mr. Ball. Mauser bolt action.

Mr. Weitzman. And at the time I looked at it, I believe I said it was 2.5 scope on it and I believe I said it was a Weaver but it wasn't; it turned out to be anything but a Weaver, but that was at a glance.

Mr. Ball. You also said it was a gun metal color?

Mr. Weitzman. Yes.

Mr. Ball. Gray or blue?

Mr. Weitzman. Blue metal.

Mr. Ball. And the rear portion of the bolt was visibly worn, is that worn?

Mr. Weitzman. That's right.

Mr. Ball. And the wooden portion of the rifle was what color?

Mr. Weitzman. It was a brown, or I would say not a mahogany brown but dark oak brown.

Mr. Ball. Rough wood, was it?

Mr. Weitzman. Yes, sir; rough wood.

Mr. Ball. And it was equipped with a scope?

Mr. Weitzman. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Was it of Japanese manufacture?

Mr. Weitzman. I believe it was a 2.5 Weaver at the time I looked at it. I didn't look that close at it; it just looked like a 2.5 but it turned out to be a Japanese scope, I believe.

Mr. Ball. Didn't you, when you went over to the railroad yard, talk to some yardman?

Mr. Weitzman. I asked a yardman if he had seen or heard anything during the passing of the President. He said he thought he saw somebody throw something through a bush and that's when I went back over the fence and that's when I found the portion of the skull. I thought it was a firecracker portion; that's what we first were looking for. This was before we knew the President was dead.

Mr. Ball. Did the yardman tell you where he thought the noise came from?

Mr. Weitzman. Yes, sir; he pointed out the wall section where there was a bunch of shrubbery and I believe that's to the right where I went over the wall where the steampipe was; that would be going north back toward the jail.

Mr. Ball. I think that's all. Do you have any desire to read this over and sign it or will you waive signature?

Mr. Weitzman. I will waive my signature. I don't think the Government is going to alter my statement any.


TESTIMONY OF CAPT. W. R. WESTBROOK

The testimony of Capt. W. R. Westbrook was taken at 9 a.m., on April 6, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Messrs. Joseph A. Ball, John Hart Ely, and Samuel A. Stern, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Dr. Alfred Goldberg, historian, was present.

110 Mr. Ball. Would you please stand up and be sworn?

Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give before the Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. Westbrook. I do.

Mr. Ball. Will you state your name, please?

Mr. Westbrook. W. R. Westbrook.

Mr. Ball. And what is your address?

Mr. Westbrook. At the present time it is 7642 Daingerfield, Apartment C, and another address is Route 2, Quinton. I live at both of them.

Mr. Ball. What is your business or occupation?

Mr. Westbrook. Captain of police.

Mr. Ball. The Commission has asked us to put something in the record about everybody's past experience. Can you tell me about where you were born—they don't get to take a look at you, so they would like to read about you.

Mr. Westbrook. I was born in Benton, Ark., November 9, 1917. I was a farm boy and came to Dallas in 1937, and went on the police department June 13, 1941, and I served as a radio patrolman for approximately 4 years, promoted to sergeant, and was a sergeant for about 6 or 7 years, and was promoted to captain in 1952, and have held that position since.

Mr. Ball. What are your duties in general, captain?

Mr. Westbrook. At the present time I am personnel officer. We conduct all background investigations of applicants, both civilian and police, and then we make—we investigate all personnel complaints—not all of them, but the major ones.

Mr. Ball. Do you wear a uniform?

Mr. Westbrook. Well, it is optional. I don't wear one.

Mr. Ball. On November 22, 1963, were you assigned any special duty?

Mr. Westbrook. No, sir; other than just my own routine duties.

Mr. Ball. What were those duties that day?

Mr. Westbrook. 8:15 to 5:15.

Mr. Ball. And were you in uniform on that day?

Mr. Westbrook. No, sir.

Mr. Ball. Where were you when you heard the President had been shot?

Mr. Westbrook. I was in my office and Mrs. Kinney, one of the dispatchers, came into the office and told us, and of course—it's the same as everybody says—we didn't believe it until a second look at her and I realized it was so, and so, there's a little confusion right here because everybody became rather excited right quick, but somebody, and I don't know who it was, came into my office and said they needed some more men at this Texas Depository Building.

You know, I didn't review my report before I came over here—I didn't have a chance. I just came off of vacation and they hit me with this this morning as soon as I got to the office. I can't recall whether or not it was the dispatcher's office, but I think it was—somebody in the dispatcher's office had told us they needed some more men at the Texas Depository Building, so I sent the men that were in my office, which were then Sergeants Stringer and Carver, and possibly Joe Fields and McGee, if they were in there—it seems like McGee was, and I think—I sent them to the building, and then I walked on down the hall spreading the word and telling the other people that they needed some men down there, and practically everybody left immediately. I sat around a while—really not knowing what to do because of the—almost all of the commanding officers and supervisors were out of the city hall and I finally couldn't stand it any longer, so I started to the Texas Depository Building, and believe it or not, I walked. There wasn't a car available, and so I walked from the city hall to the Depository Building, and I would stop on the way down where there would be a group of people listening to somebody's transistor radio and I would stop and catch a few false reports, you might say, at that time, until I reached the building.

Do you want me to continue on?

Mr. Ball. Go right ahead, sir.

Mr. Westbrook. After we reached the building, or after I reached the building,111 I contacted my sergeant Sgt. R. D. Stringer, and he was standing in front and so then I went into the building to help start the search and I was on the first floor and I had walked down an aisle and opened a door onto an outside loading dock, and when I came out on this dock, one of the men hollered and said there had been an officer killed in Oak Cliff.

Well, then, of course, I ran to my radio because I am the personnel officer and that then became, of course, my greatest interest right at that time, and so, Sergeant Stringer and I and some patrolman—I don't recall his name—then drove to the immediate vicinity of where Officer Tippit had been shot and killed.

Of course, the body was already gone, the squad car was still there, and on one occasion as we were approaching this squad car, a call came over the radio that a suspicious person had been sighted running into the public library at Marsalis and Jefferson, so we immediately went to that location and it was a false—it was just one of the actually—it was one of the employees of the library who had heard the news somewhere on the radio and he was running to tell the other group about Kennedy.

So, we returned to the scene and here I met Bob Barrett, the FBI agent, and Sergeant Stringer and Barrett and I were together, and then an eyewitness to the shooting of the officer from across the street, a lady, came to the car, and she was telling us how this happened.

Mr. Ball. Where was your car parked at that time?

Mr. Westbrook. It wasn't my car—we didn't have one. I don't know where this officer went after he let us out at the scene.

Mr. Ball. An officer drove you down to the scene?

Mr. Westbrook. An officer drove us to the scene.

Mr. Ball. Where were you when this lady came up who was an eyewitness?

Mr. Westbrook. We were at the squad car—Tippit's squad car—it had never been moved.

Mr. Ball. You were near 10th and Patton?

Mr. Westbrook. And she was telling us what had occurred.

Mr. Ball. Do you remember her name?

Mr. Westbrook. No; the other officers got it.

Mr. Ball. Was it a Mrs. Markham?

Mr. Westbrook. It could have been, sir; I don't recall, because I directed someone there to be sure and get her name for the report, but she lived directly across the street, and she told us—or was in the process of telling us how it occurred—what she had seen, when someone hollered a patrolman hollered—"It's just come over the radio that they've got a suspicious person in the Texas Theatre."

Then, Sergeant Stringer, I, and Agent Barrett got in another squad car, and I don't know what officer was driving this one, but then when we arrived and were approaching the theatre, I directed the patrolman to turn down into the alley instead of going around to the front because I figured there would be a lot of cars at the front. There were two or three at the back.

So, I and Barrett—Stringer went to another door, and I and Barrett—we stopped at the first one—we got out and walked to this first entrance that was nearest us, and as we walked into the door we met an employee of the theatre.

Again, I do not know his name, but it was taken, and he pointed—I don't think I said anything to him—I think he told me, he said, "The man you are looking for—" Now, right here, Barrett and I became separated for a short minute or two. I think he was on the other side of the stage, and I'm not for sure, but this boy reported—he pointed to a man that was sitting about the middle—the middle row of seats pretty close to the back and he said, "That is the man you are looking for."

And I started toward him and I had taken about two or three steps—down the steps.

Mr. Ball. Down the steps from the stage?

Mr. Westbrook. From the stage—yes, sir. Now, I feel sure, and at the time I think I knew—I'm not sure if I included that in the report, but I think Barrett was going down the other steps. I think we separated right there and he got on the other side.

Mr. Ball. Which side were you on?

112 Mr. Westbrook. I was facing the audience—I would be on the right side.

Mr. Ball. Facing the audience—that would be on the right side?

Mr. Westbrook. I was on the right side.

Mr. Ball. And if you were facing the screen you would have been on the left?

Mr. Westbrook. I would have been on the left.

Mr. Ball. The man that was pointed out to you was sitting next to the aisle, if you were facing the screen?

Mr. Westbrook. Well, he was sitting in the middle row of seats, and I don't know just exactly which—it was the third or fourth row from the back, it seemed like.

Mr. Ball. And near what aisle?

Mr. Westbrook. He was about the middle of the aisle.

Mr. Ball. He was about the middle of the aisle?

Mr. Westbrook. Yes; about the middle of the aisle. So, about the time I reached the first step or maybe the second step, I noticed then Officer McDonald—of course, the stage was still dim, but I could tell it was McDonald. I know him. He used to work for me when I was radio patrolman, and I seen him go down the aisle and this boy come up and made a contact, and they started struggling.

Mr. Ball. You say "the boy come up," what did he do?

Mr. Westbrook. He got up from the seat and they started fighting.

Mr. Ball. Were the lights on in the theatre?

Mr. Westbrook. Very dim ones; the picture was still running, but the lights were on very dim.

Mr. Ball. They started fighting—what sort of fighting did you see?

Mr. Westbrook. Well, I know that I seen Oswald swing at McDonald and McDonald grab him.

Mr. Ball. Oswald swung with which arm, would you say?

Mr. Westbrook. I would say it would be his left fist, because from the way he was sitting facing me—I would say it would be his left fist.

Mr. Ball. Then what did you see?

Mr. Westbrook. Well, the next thing, of course, then I started running and there was probably six or seven officers that just converged on him just like that. Barrett was, I think, directly behind me in the aisle—he got there at the same time I did.

I yelled about two or three times, "Has somebody got his gun," and finally some officer—I don't know which one it was—says, "Yes; I have the gun."

Mr. Ball. Were you close enough to hear anything said by either McDonald or anyone else?

Mr. Westbrook. I heard Oswald say something about police brutality—Oswald yelled something about police brutality.

Mr. Ball. When McDonald first approached the man in the seats did you hear McDonald say anything?

Mr. Westbrook. I probably couldn't have heard this, Mr. Ball, from where I was.

Mr. Ball. Did you hear the man say anything?

Mr. Westbrook. The word "brutality" or "police brutality" and I think that was just all he yelled—was said while I was in the aisle walking down to the group. There was about six or seven ahold of him at that time.

Mr. Ball. Were the handcuffs on him at the time you arrived?

Mr. Westbrook. They were putting the handcuffs on him—they had one handcuff on one hand and they were trying to find the other one, and they were having difficulty in locating it because there were so many hands there.

Mr. Ball. How many officers were there?

Mr. Westbrook. In fact—that was one of the only humorous things about the whole thing—somebody did get ahold of the wrong arm and they were twisting it behind Oswald's back and somebody yelled—I remember that, "My God, you got mine." I think it was just an arm that come up out of the crowd that somebody grabbed.

Mr. Ball. Did you see any police officer strike Oswald?

Mr. Westbrook. No; I did not.

113 Mr. Ball. You didn't?

Mr. Westbrook. No, I didn't.

Mr. Ball. We had a witness here Thursday, a patron of the theatre at the time, who said that at the time the officers were struggling with Oswald he saw another officer who had a shotgun take the shotgun and grab it by the muzzle and strike Oswald in the back with the butt of the shotgun; did you see that?

Mr. Westbrook. No, sir; I didn't see that. It could have happened without me seeing it because half of my view was blocked from the struggle.

Mr. Ball. Did anybody ever tell you that story before?

Mr. Westbrook. That's the first time I've heard that.

Mr. Ball. That's the first time you have ever heard it?

Mr. Westbrook. That's the first time I have ever heard any shotgun was in play.

Mr. Ball. Did any of the men who were approaching Oswald or who approached Oswald have a gun in their hand?

Mr. Westbrook. I didn't see a gun, Mr. Ball; no, sir.

Mr. Ball. Did you see any men with shotguns in the theatre?

Mr. Westbrook. In the theatre—I didn't.

Mr. Ball. Did you see any at any other time?

Mr. Westbrook. Yes, sir; I had one myself at the library.

Mr. Ball. But did you enter the theatre with a gun?

Mr. Westbrook. Oh, no.

Mr. Ball. Did you see any officer either in uniform or out of uniform within the theatre itself that was armed with a shotgun?

Mr. Westbrook. No, sir—not that I recall, but of course at that time I wasn't looking for one. You know, if I had been looking for one, I probably would have seen one, because I feel sure there must have been somebody come in with a shotgun.

Mr. Ball. Were you in uniform at that time?

Mr. Westbrook. No, sir.

Mr. Ball. What happened after that, Officer Westbrook?

Mr. Westbrook. Well, after Oswald was handcuffed, and I was then—some way I got in the aisle in front of Oswald—where this was going on, and I looked right into his face, closer than you and I, about like this——

Mr. Ball. That's close to a foot?

Mr. Westbrook. Yes; I'd say 10 inches.

Mr. Ball. Ten inches.

Mr. Westbrook. And I asked him his name and he didn't answer, and so that was the only thing. Then I yelled—there was so much confusion and it was rather loud, and I yelled at the top of my voice, I said, "Get him out of here. Get him in the squad car and head straight to the city hall and notify them you are on the way." And so they immediately left with him.

Mr. Ball. Were you the senior officer there?

Mr. Westbrook. Possibly—I don't think there was another captain there. There was a lieutenant and then I ordered all of them to be sure and take the names of everyone in the theatre at that time.

Mr. Ball. We have asked for names of people in the theatre and we have only come up with the name of George Applin. Do you know of any others?

Mr. Westbrook. He possibly might have been the only one in there at the time—the rest of them might have been working there, because I'm sure at that time of day you would have more employees than you would have patrons.

Mr. Ball. You didn't take the names of any of the patrons?

Mr. Westbrook. No, sir.

Mr. Ball. Did you see any marks on Oswald's face as you looked at him, as close to him as you did in the theatre?

Mr. Westbrook. It seemed like there was a scratch or something—I don't remember exactly—when I looked at him—maybe a slight discoloration, or it might have been bleeding slightly.

Mr. Ball. Under the right eye?

Mr. Westbrook. I believe it would be—you—yes, sir; it would be under the right eye.

Mr. Ball. Here is a picture, and who are the officers in the picture?

114 Mr. Westbrook. Sergeant Warren on the right——

Mr. Ball. What is his full name?

Mr. Westbrook. Wilson F. Warren, and this kid on the left—I don't know—I don't know his name. Of course, I know him.

Mr. Ball. That's Sergeant Warren on the right?

Mr. Westbrook. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. What is his assignment?

Mr. Westbrook. He is jail supervisor.

Mr. Ball. And do you know when the picture was taken?

Mr. Westbrook. No, sir.

Mr. Ball. And in this picture it looks like there was some mark on Oswald's face.

Mr. Westbrook. Yes, it looks like it might have been a little discoloration there—I think in the mug shot that shows up quite a bit more so than it does there, but you can see some.

Mr. Ball. And also on the left eye and right forehead, is that right?

Mr. Westbrook. Well, I don't recall anything, but that little bruise.

Mr. Ball. The bruise under the eye?

Mr. Westbrook. The bruise under the eye whenever I looked at him.

Mr. Ball. Under which eye?

Mr. Westbrook. I think it was the right eye—no, wait a minute, that would be the left eye—left eye.

Mr. Ball. You do recall that?

Mr. Westbrook. The one that was facing me—he was facing me.

Mr. Ball. Do you recall a bruise under the left eye—when?

Mr. Westbrook. When I looked at him in the theatre, but why, as many officers as there were ahold of him, how he got out from under all the group without more than that, I don't know. Just accidentally trying to straighten up, with as many officers as there were there—I don't know.

Mr. Ball. And you think you do recall that bruise under the left eye?

Mr. Westbrook. Maybe I should put that this way, Mr. Ball, a bruise under the eye, because I can't be definite about which eye, but just from the picture I see, but I know I saw that bruise and due to the fact that he had hollered "brutality"—well I'm getting ahead of myself here, so I'll just quit.

Mr. Ball. Go right ahead.

Mr. Westbrook. Due to the fact that he had hollered "brutality," as soon as Mr. McDonald had arrived at the city hall with the scratch on his face, I sent him on upstairs.

Mr. Ball. As soon as Oswald arrived?

Mr. Westbrook. No; as soon as McDonald arrived. I had nothing to do with Oswald after he got to the city hall.

Mr. Ball. Did you also see a scratch on McDonald's face?

Mr. Westbrook. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Where?

Mr. Westbrook. I don't remember which side, but it was a rather long scratch and I had him to go to the Bureau and have his picture made—there is a picture of that, which you may have in your possession.

Mr. Ball. That was Officer McDonald—you had his picture taken immediately of his face?

Mr. Westbrook. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. We will mark this as "Exhibit A" in your deposition.

(Instrument marked by the reporter as "Westbrook's Exhibit A," for identification.)

Mr. Ball. What happened after that?

Mr. Westbrook. Well, from there on I had nothing to do with him—with Oswald.

Mr. Ball. Did you see him taken from the theatre?

Mr. Westbrook. No, sir; because I went the other way.

Mr. Ball. You went to the back?

Mr. Westbrook. Yes; he went out the front and I never saw Oswald again—that's the last time I saw him.

115 Mr. Ball. Now, what did you do after that?

Mr. Westbrook. I went back to the city hall and resumed my desk.

Mr. Ball. Did you ever find some clothing?

Mr. Westbrook. That was before, Mr. Ball.

Mr. Ball. When was that?

Mr. Westbrook. Actually, I didn't find it—it was pointed out to me by either some officer that—that was while we were going over the scene in the close area where the shooting was concerned, someone pointed out a jacket to me that was laying under a car and I got the jacket and told the officer to take the license number.

Mr. Ball. When did this happen? You gave me a sort of a resume of what you had done, but you omitted this incident.

Mr. Westbrook. I tell you what—this occurred shortly—let me think just a minute. We had been to the library and there is a little bit more conversation on the radio—I got on the radio and I asked the dispatcher about along this time, and I think this was after the library situation, if there had been a command post set up and who was in charge at the scene, and he told me Sergeant Owens, and about that time we saw Sergeant Owens pass.

Mr. Ball. What do you mean by "command post"?

Mr. Westbrook. Well, the definition—the way we place a command post—maybe I can use another illustration.

If there is some disaster, generally, as in this particular case, there should have been a central person in charge, which was Sergeant Owens, as he had said. The actual command post had not been established, but let me better explain a command post by a disaster area, like a fire.

In other words, you set it up at a certain location on the corner of Eighth and Seventh, and you work from there. Now, in this case we didn't have such a command post set up because one of the main reasons was because it wasn't defined a disaster area as we normally put it, but then I got out of the car after we got back in the car at the library and finally I got out of the car over on Jefferson Street—I would say about the 300 or 400 block of East Jefferson. No; that would be West Jefferson—because 10th comes through—yes; that would be West Jefferson.

Mr. Ball. Was that before you went to the scene of the Tippit shooting?

Mr. Westbrook. Yes, sir; that was before we went to that scene.

Mr. Ball. That was after you left the library?

Mr. Westbrook. After we left the library. I got out of the car and walked through the parking lot.

Mr. Ball. What parking lot?

Mr. Westbrook. I don't know—it may have been a used-car lot.

Mr. Ball. On what street?

Mr. Westbrook. It was actually on Jefferson, but the place where this jacket was found would have been back closer to the alley, Mr. Ball.

Mr. Ball. The alley of what?

Mr. Westbrook. Between Jefferson and whatever the next street is over there.

Mr. Ball. Tenth Street is the street north.

Mr. Westbrook. What street?

Mr. Ball. You see, the street directly north of Jefferson is 10th Street.

Mr. Westbrook. It would be between Jefferson and 10th Street?

Mr. Ball. And where with reference to Patton?

Mr. Westbrook. Well, it would be toward town or it would be north of Patton—I guess it would be east of Patton.

Mr. Ball. It would be west of Patton, wouldn't it? Or would it be toward Patton?

Mr. Westbrook. Toward town—if I could see a map?

Mr. Ball. Well, here is a map [handed instrument to the witness].

Mr. Westbrook. I used to be very familiar with that.

Mr. Ball. There is a map and you can look at it and tell us.

Mr. Westbrook. [Examining instrument.] Now, I've got it located—here is the Texas Theatre and I'm on Jefferson now. It would be Cumberland, Storey, and Crawford—I would say it would be between Crawford and Storey.

116 Mr. Ball. Between Crawford and Storey on Jefferson?

Mr. Westbrook. On Jefferson, between 10th and Jefferson there.

Mr. Ball. That would be west of Patton.

Mr. Westbrook. That would be west of Patton—yes, sir; toward the theatre.

Mr. Ball. Now, you came from the library—where is that library?

Mr. Westbrook. The library is at Marsalis and Jefferson, sir. It must be here on Turner Plaza right here.

Mr. Ball. You drove west on Jefferson, did you?

Mr. Westbrook. We drove west on Jefferson.

Mr. Ball. And you got out of the car where?

Mr. Westbrook. We got out of the car about here [indicating].

Mr. Ball. At what street?

Mr. Westbrook. It was between two streets, and I would say it was between this Storey and Crawford.

Mr. Ball. Why did you get out of the car at that time?

Mr. Westbrook. Just more or less searching—just no particular reason—just searching the area.

Mr. Ball. You were just looking around to see what you could see?

Mr. Westbrook. Yes; and at this time I had a shotgun—I had borrowed a shotgun from a patrolman.

Mr. Ball. Where did you go when you got out of the car?

Mr. Westbrook. I walked through, and this is a car lot or a parking area, right along in here, and I don't know whether I am wrong on my location or not, but I think I'm right.

Mr. Ball. You walked through a car lot, did you?

Mr. Westbrook. Yes, sir; and I think I came out—is that a church—there's a church right there close by.

Mr. Ball. Was there a station anywhere near there, a service station?

Mr. Westbrook. Oh, there could have been—yes, sir. There was either a used-car lot or a parking lot—that I don't know.

Mr. Ball. Well, I show you some pictures here.

Mr. Westbrook. I would recognize it in the picture.

Mr. Ball. This is a picture of a Texaco station at the intersection of Crawford and Jefferson.

Mr. Westbrook. At Crawford and Jefferson?

Mr. Ball. There is a parking area behind that.

Mr. Westbrook. This looks more like it.

Mr. Ball. The Texaco station?

Mr. Westbrook. Yes—the Texaco station; and I think where this jacket was found was right along in here [indicating].

Mr. Ball. Now, the picture you are looking at is identified as a parking lot, and on a parking area behind the Texaco service station at the corner of Crawford and Jefferson?

Mr. Westbrook. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. You walked through there, did you?

Mr. Westbrook. I walked through from Jefferson.

Mr. Ball. From Jefferson?

Mr. Westbrook. There is an old house—the only thing—I come down by this station there—there is an old house there and some of the officers were looking it over. They had seen somebody go in it and there was quite a few officers there so I didn't pay any further attention to it. So, I walked on, and possibly—this may be it—it appears to be it right here in the corner.

Mr. Ball. Put an arrow showing the old house.

Mr. Westbrook. I think this is it right here—I can't be positive, but I think that's it.

Mr. Ball. Make an arrow with a pen.

Mr. Westbrook. The arrow marks the point of an old house.

Mr. Ball. That you walked toward, is that right?

Mr. Westbrook. Yes.

Mr. Ball. And you have marked that old house?

Mr. Westbrook. Yes.

117 Mr. Ball. Now, what did you do and what did you see?

Mr. Westbrook. Well, there were several officers—there were some at the back and there were some in the front, and so I just hesitated a moment and then I walked on.

Mr. Ball. You walked where?

Mr. Westbrook. I think I come up this way.

Mr. Ball. By "this way" you mean towards the parking lot?

Mr. Westbrook. Towards the parking lot—yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Behind the Texaco service station?

Mr. Westbrook. Yes; behind the Texaco service station, and some officer, I feel sure it was an officer, I still can't be positive—pointed this jacket out to me and it was laying slightly under the rear of one of the cars.

Mr. Ball. What kind of a car was it?

Mr. Westbrook. That, I couldn't tell you. I told the officer to take the make and the license number.

Mr. Ball. Did you take the number yourself?

Mr. Westbrook. No.

Mr. Ball. What was the name of the officer?

Mr. Westbrook. I couldn't tell you that, sir.

Mr. Ball. I offer this as Exhibit B, which is identified as "37. Parking area behind Texaco station," and on which the witness has marked "old house."

(Instrument marked by the reporter as "Westbrook Exhibit No. B," for identification.)

(Instrument marked by the reporter as "Westbrook Exhibit No. C," for identification.)

Mr. Ball. I show you another picture which is identified as "38. Place where jacket found behind Oldsmobile, License No. NL 95."

Does that look anything like the area where you saw the jacket?

Mr. Westbrook. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Where?

Mr. Westbrook. I would say that the jacket probably, if this is the area, was probably right along in here.

Mr. Ball. Put a circle there in the general area.

(Witness complied with request of Counsel Ball.)

Mr. Ball. The jacket was underneath a car?

Mr. Westbrook. But, I am guessing on this—slightly underneath a car.

Mr. Ball. What do you mean you are guessing on this—what are you guessing about?

Mr. Westbrook. About where the jacket was found in this picture.

Mr. Ball. You mean it was under——

Mr. Westbrook. It was under a car, but I don't know whether it was under the one I put it under or not.

Mr. Ball. It might have been under one or the other of the cars, you couldn't swear which?

Mr. Westbrook. Yes, it could have been under any of the other cars, but I think it was kind of along in the middle of the parking lot.

Mr. Ball. I offer this as Exhibit B of Captain Westbrook's deposition.

Now, you don't know the name of the officer?

Mr. Westbrook. No; I probably knew his name, but we see so many things that were happening so fast.

Mr. Ball. Do you recognize anything in that picture?

Mr. Westbrook. (Examining instrument referred to.) No; I don't.

Mr. Ball. This is No. 39, which I identify for the record.

(Instrument marked by the reporter as "Westbrook Exhibit No. D," "39. View of alley behind Texaco station parking lot.")

Mr. Westbrook. I still think this is the house here—I think this is the old house and this is the parking lot and I would say the jacket was found behind this row of cars. It seemed to me like there was some—more room from where the cars were from what is shown there—back this way.

Mr. Ball. Point out the old house.

Mr. Westbrook. This one.

118 Mr. Ball. Mark it.

(Witness marked instrument referred to as requested by Counsel Ball.)

Mr. Ball. Point out the row of cars where the jacket was found.

Mr. Westbrook. Well, that, I don't believe I could do——

Mr. Ball. Was it near the alley?

Mr. Westbrook. It was near—but not this close—it don't seem to me.

Mr. Ball. Not as close as shown in the picture?

Mr. Westbrook. It don't seem to me—I can't remember for sure.

Mr. Ball. I offer this exhibit, Westbrook No. D.

Mr. Westbrook. Now, I did, when I left this scene, I turned this jacket over to one of the officers and I went by that church, I think, and I think that would be on 10th Street.

Mr. Ball. I show you Commission Exhibit 162, do you recognize that?

Mr. Westbrook. That is exactly the jacket we found.

Mr. Ball. That is the jacket you found?

Mr. Westbrook. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. And you turned it over to whom?

Mr. Westbrook. Now, it was to this officer—that got the name.

Mr. Ball. Does your report show the name of the officer?

Mr. Westbrook. No, sir; it doesn't. When things like this happen—it was happening so fast you don't remember those things.

Mr. Ball. Then, it was after that you went over to 10th and Patton?

Mr. Westbrook. To 10th and Patton—yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. And from there you went to the theatre?

Mr. Westbrook. Yes; from there we went to the theatre, and I can't remember exactly how that I got back with Bob Barrett and Stringer, but anyway, we got together again—probably at 10th and Patton.

Mr. Ball. Were you in the personnel office at a time that a gun was brought in?

Mr. Westbrook. Yes, sir; it was brought to my office when it shouldn't have been.

Mr. Ball. But it was brought to your office?

Mr. Westbrook. Yes; it was.

Mr. Ball. And it was marked by some officer?

Mr. Westbrook. It was marked by Officer Jerry Hill and a couple or three more, and when they come in with the gun, I just went on down and told Captain Fritz that the gun was in my office and he sent a man up after it. I didn't take it down.

Mr. Ball. Did you see McDonald mark it?

Mr. Westbrook. He possibly could have—he was in there.

Mr. Ball. Did you see the gun unloaded?

Mr. Westbrook. No, sir; I didn't see it unloaded. When I saw it, the gun was laying on Mr. McGee's desk and the shells were out of it.

Mr. Ball. Did you look at any of the shells?

Mr. Westbrook. No, sir.

Mr. Ball. Did you look the gun over?

Mr. Westbrook. No, sir.

Mr. Ball. Do you have any questions?

Mr. Ely. Yes; I have one. Captain, you mentioned that you had left orders for somebody to take the names of everybody in the theatre, and you also stated you did not have this list; do you know who has it?

Mr. Westbrook. No; possibly Lieutenant Cunningham will know, but I don't know who has the list.

Mr. Ely. That's all.

Mr. Westbrook. And I'm sorry that I'm so vague on names, but it's just—the only reason that I knew Sergeant Stringer, I think, that day he worked with me.

Mr. Ball. Do you have any questions?

Mr. Stern. No, sir.

Mr. Ball. I think that's all. Thank you very much, captain.

Mr. Westbrook. Thank you, sir, Mr. Ball, it has been a pleasure.


119

TESTIMONY OF ELMER L. BOYD

The testimony of Elmer L. Boyd was taken at 11 a.m., on April 6, 1964, in the office of the U. S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Messrs. Joseph A. Ball, John Hart Ely and Samuel A. Stern, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Dr. Alfred Goldberg, historian, was present.

Mr. Ball. Mr. Boyd, do you swear that the testimony you are about to give before this Commission shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. Boyd. I do.

Mr. Ball. Will you state your name, please?

Mr. Boyd. Elmer L. Boyd.

Mr. Ball. And what is your occupation?

Mr. Boyd. I am a detective in the homicide and robbery bureau for the Dallas Police Department.

Mr. Ball. You received a letter asking you to appear here today, didn't you?

Mr. Boyd. I think they received one over at the office and they notified me.

Mr. Ball. And you have been told the purpose of this investigation is to inquire into the facts and circumstances surrounding the assassination of President Kennedy?

Mr. Boyd. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. I'm going to ask you what you learned during the course of your investigation.

Mr. Boyd. All right.

Mr. Ball. Now, can you tell me something about yourself, where you were born and where you went to school and what you have done most of your life?

Mr. Boyd. Well, yes, sir. I can tell you I was born in Navarro County—the particular place was Blooming Grove, Tex., and it's about 15 miles west of Corsicana, and I was raised up about 7 miles north of there. I attended school, well, I started at a little country school—it was Pecan, was the name of the school. I went there 2 years and then they sent me to Blooming Grove and I started to school in my second grade. The reason I was in the second grade—I had to go through a primer before I got in the first grade—I didn't fail—I just had to go through this primer before I got in the first grade, and I graduated from high school at Blooming Grove in 1946 and I went into the Navy and served for 2 years, I believe I served about 22 months in the Navy—I joined and I went through boot training at San Diego, went from there to Newport, R. I., and caught my first ship, the USS Kenneth D. Bailey. I don't recall just how many months I spent on that—somewhere around 15 or 16 months, I've forgotten, and then they sent me to—I transferred from that ship and went on the USS Cone, that's another destroyer [spelling] C-o-n-e, and along about the first part of January, I believe, in 1948, they transferred me to Pensacola where I caught my third destroyer, the USS Forrest Royal, and we operated in and out of there until I got out of the Navy, and I believe it was about the first day of April 1948, when I was discharged, and I came to Dallas and I have been here in Dallas ever since.

I went to work on the police department May 19, 1952. Prior to that I worked, I believe, about 3 years for the gas company and I started out reading gas meters, and then I went into collecting, and I was a collector for the gas company when I came on the police department. I think I worked a couple of more places before then—one for a printing company down here on Cockrell, down here by Sears & Roebuck for a while, but I didn't stay there long.

Mr. Ball. How long have you been in homicide?

Mr. Boyd. I came in there on October 15, I believe, in 1957.

Mr. Ball. November 22, 1963, what were your hours of duty?

Mr. Boyd. Well, my hours of duty on November 22, 1963, I believe, was 4 to midnight.

Mr. Ball. So, on that day you went to work earlier?

Mr. Boyd. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. Ball. What time?

120 Mr. Boyd. I came to work at 9 o'clock. Is it all right for me to go by this?

Mr. Ball. I see you have there a report that is entitled "Report on Officer's Duty in Regard to the President's Murder, R. M. Sims, No. 629, and E. L. Boyd, No. 840."

Mr. Boyd. Yes; we are partners.

Mr. Ball. Did you prepare that report yourself?

Mr. Boyd. He and I together prepared it.

Mr. Ball. When did you prepare it?

Mr. Boyd. Let me see—the last part of November—I'm not sure of the date.

Mr. Ball. Was it within a week after the events took place that are recorded there?

Mr. Boyd. I would say so; yes.

Mr. Ball. You dictated it to a secretary?

Mr. Boyd. Well, I wrote it out in longhand and carried it to the secretary and she typed it up.

Mr. Ball. It was written out in your longhand?

Mr. Boyd. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Do you have those longhand notes?

Mr. Boyd. No, sir; I do not.

Mr. Ball. This report has already been attached to Officer Sims' deposition as Exhibit A, so we have read it.

Mr. Boyd. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. During the course of your work, did you make notes of what you were doing in a notebook?

Mr. Boyd. Well, I made notes, and I believe I had a notebook.

Mr. Ball. Did you make it a habit of carrying a notebook with you?

Mr. Boyd. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. When you work?

Mr. Boyd. Yes.

Mr. Ball. And you just jot things down as they occur?

Mr. Boyd. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Do you have that notebook with you?

Mr. Boyd. No; I do not.

Mr. Ball. Do you know where it is?

Mr. Boyd. No, sir; right offhand, I don't know where it is. Part of the time, you know, I just took a sheet of paper and put down the particular times, you know, and after I fixed this—I don't recall what I did with it. I may have torn it up.

Mr. Ball. You didn't have a regular notebook that you kept with you at all times?

Mr. Boyd. I had a regular notebook, but I didn't put everything in it, I'm sure.

Mr. Ball. This notebook that you had on November 22, 1963, have anything in it with respect to what you did on the 22d and the 23d of November?

Mr. Boyd. Of 1963—I don't recall if I have these showups in there or not—it seems like I did.

Mr. Ball. Do you have it with you?

Mr. Boyd. No; I do not.

Mr. Ball. Can you get it for me?

Mr. Boyd. I probably could if I have it.

Mr. Ball. Will you look it up?

Mr. Boyd. I will look for it.

Mr. Ball. I'll be down to the police department tomorrow morning at 10 o'clock and will you look it up between now and then and then let me see it if you still have it?

Mr. Boyd. All right.

Mr. Ball. I'll be up there in your department—near Captain Fritz' office.

Mr. Boyd. What time—at 10 o'clock?

Mr. Ball. At 10 o'clock in the morning.

Mr. Boyd. I'll be there—I come on at 10.

Mr. Ball. You come on at 10?

Mr. Boyd. Yes.

Mr. Ball. Then, I'll see you in the morning.

121 Mr. Boyd. All right.

Mr. Ball. On this morning of November 22, you had been ordered to work early; why was that?

Mr. Boyd. Well, President Kennedy was coming into Dallas and I was assigned to work with Captain Fritz and Detective Sims out at the Trade Mart.

Mr. Ball. Where did you hear that the President had been shot?

Mr. Boyd. Yes; I heard that.

Mr. Ball. You heard that over the radio, didn't you?

Mr. Boyd. Well, I believe it was around 12:40 when Chief Stevenson called and he talked to Captain Fritz out at the Trade Mart and he told him that—Captain Fritz told me that Chief Stevenson told him that the President had been involved in an accident down at the triple underpass and was on his way to Parkland.

Mr. Ball. Did you go over there?

Mr. Boyd. When we got out of the car, we checked, I believe, with—Mr. Sims called in on the radio and they told us he had been shot and we went to Parkland Hospital and pulled up to the emergency and saw there were a lot of people out there, but we saw Chief Curry out in front of the emergency there and he advised us to go back down to the scene of where we thought the shooting had occurred, down at the Texas Book Depository, and Mr. Sims and Captain Fritz and Sheriff Decker was also out there, and he rode back down with us.

Mr. Ball. And you went to the School Depository Building, did you?

Mr. Boyd. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. And you were told by Chief Curry to go to the School Depository Building at that time?

Mr. Boyd. Yes; down at the scene and that's where we had heard that they thought that the shot came from—from the Texas Book Store.

Mr. Ball. Where were you when you first heard that?

Mr. Boyd. We were at the Trade Mart when we heard that—pulling out—we were on our way to Parkland Hospital from the Trade Mart, pulling out in the car.

Mr. Ball. Now, when you arrived down here at the building, what did you do?

Mr. Boyd. Well, we went outside the building and we made two or three stops going up, you know, at different floors, and when we got up to the top floor—I believe it was the top one—I think it's the seventh floor, and someone called us and said they had found some hulls, rifle hulls, down on the sixth floor, I believe it was the sixth floor.

Mr. Ball. And you were with whom at that time?

Mr. Boyd. I was with Captain Fritz and Detective Sims.

Mr. Ball. Did you go down to the sixth floor?

Mr. Boyd. We stopped at the sixth floor—you say, did we go down to the sixth floor?

Mr. Ball. When you heard that they found some hulls, just tell us what you did.

Mr. Boyd. We went down to the sixth floor and found the hulls over on the southeast corner of the building and they had some books, I suppose it was books—boxes of books stacked up back over there that way.

Mr. Ball. Did you see the hulls on the floor?

Mr. Boyd. Yes.

Mr. Ball. Did you see anything else around there where the hulls were on the floor?

Mr. Boyd. Well, over to the west there was some paper sacks, and I think some chicken bones up on top of some boxes.

Mr. Ball. That was west?

Mr. Boyd. Right; yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Near the windows?

Mr. Boyd. Yes, sir; they were near the windows.

Mr. Ball. How far west from where the hulls were located?

Mr. Boyd. Oh, I would say roughly between 30 and 40 feet, probably.

Mr. Ball. Where, with reference to the rows of windows—there are pairs of windows—how many pairs of windows away from where the hulls were located did you see the paper sack and chicken bones?

Mr. Boyd. Let me see—I don't recall just how many rows of windows from122 there it was. They are in rows of two, now, I'm not sure, I think it was in front of the third or fourth window over from the southeast corner.

Mr. Ball. Third or fourth?

Mr. Boyd. Yes.

Mr. Ball. Pair of windows?

Mr. Boyd. Yes, sir; now—pair of windows—let's see.

Mr. Ball. The windows are in pairs on that side, on the Elm Street side—now, what sort of sack was it?

Mr. Boyd. The best I remember it was just a brown paper sack—it looked like a lunch sack.

Mr. Ball. About the size of a lunch sack?

Mr. Boyd. Yes.

Mr. Ball. Did you see any other paper sack around there?

Mr. Boyd. I don't recall any if I did.

Mr. Ball. Did you see any brown wrapping paper near the window where the hulls were found, near the windows alongside which the hulls were found?

Mr. Boyd. I don't believe I did.

Mr. Ball. What else did you see?

Mr. Boyd. I just saw those stacks of books up there, and after we had been up there a while, I saw a rifle back over toward the southwest corner over there.

Mr. Ball. Where was that located?

Mr. Boyd. It was down between some boxes.

Mr. Ball. Now, did you see any pictures taken of the hulls, photographs taken of the hulls?

Mr. Boyd. Well, let's see, Detective Studebaker and Lieutenant Day, I believe, came up there and they were taking pictures over there at the scene of the hulls.

Mr. Ball. And what about where the rifle was found, did you see pictures taken there?

Mr. Boyd. Yes; I saw pictures taken over there.

Mr. Ball. By whom?

Mr. Boyd. Lieutenant Day.

Mr. Ball. Did you see anything else on the sixth floor there?

Mr. Boyd. I saw a lot of officers.

Mr. Ball. Did you find anything yourself?

Mr. Boyd. Not on the sixth floor—I don't believe so.

Mr. Ball. What time did you leave there?

Mr. Boyd. Well, I think I've got it down here somewhere—near 2 o'clock—I believe, but let me check to make sure. It would have been between 1:30 and 2 o'clock.

Mr. Ball. Where were you when you heard the rifle had been found?

Mr. Boyd. I was over near the scene of where the shells had been found.

Mr. Ball. Did you see Captain Fritz handle the rifle after it had been found?

Mr. Boyd. I don't believe so.

Mr. Ball. Did you see him eject anything from it?

Mr. Boyd. Let me see, now, I believe they did get a shell out of it after Lieutenant Day came over there.

Mr. Ball. Did you see it, or are you just telling us what you heard?

Mr. Boyd. Well, I don't believe I saw him get it out.

Mr. Ball. You heard about it?

Mr. Boyd. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. You left there and went up to the police department, didn't you?

Mr. Boyd. Well, when we left there, we started to go to Irving, but someone—when we got downstairs—someone told Captain Fritz that Sheriff Decker wanted to see him over in his office.

Mr. Ball. You say you started to go where?

Mr. Boyd. Irving, Tex.

Mr. Ball. Where did you get the address in Irving, Tex., or the place to go to in Irving, Tex.?

Mr. Boyd. Captain Fritz got it from some man there on the sixth floor. He came up and talked to him a minute and then he told Mr. Sims and I that we should check this Lee Harvey Oswald out, and that was the address they gave us—it was in Irving, Tex.

123 Mr. Ball. And what did you do then?

Mr. Boyd. We started to go over there and when we got downstairs, like I said, someone told Captain Fritz that Sheriff Decker wanted to see him a minute before he left, and we went in there and while we were in there we learned that the man that had shot Officer Tippit, we thought was the man, was on his way up to our office and Captain Fritz wanted to go by there and we carried him there.

Mr. Ball. You were in Decker's office when you heard that a man had been arrested for the murder of Tippit?

Mr. Boyd. Yes; we heard about Tippit getting shot when we were up on the sixth floor.

Mr. Ball. Then, Fritz told you to go to Irving, didn't he?

Mr. Boyd. Yes, sir; we started to Irving.

Mr. Ball. Where were you when you heard the man had been arrested, the suspect for the murder of Tippit?

Mr. Boyd. Well, I think we was still in the Texas Book Depository when we heard about him being arrested over there.

Mr. Ball. Did you go to Decker's office with Fritz?

Mr. Boyd. Yes sir.

Mr. Ball. And then you went with Fritz up to your office?

Mr. Boyd. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. And did Fritz send somebody else out to Irving, or do you remember?

Mr. Boyd. I think later on, I believe, he sent someone else out there.

Mr. Ball. He told you to stay there at the police department, did he?

Mr. Boyd. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. What did you do when you got there?

Mr. Boyd. Well, we went in and there was a good many people there—I don't recall who all was there—I know we talked to Lieutenant Baker, and he told us that the man that shot Tippit was in the interrogation room and about 5 minutes or so after we were in the office, we took Lee Harvey Oswald out of there and brought him into Captain Fritz' office and he talked to him in there.

Mr. Ball. Tell us about what time of day that was?

Mr. Boyd. I believe it was around 2:20 when we took him out in there; yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. And who was there in the room with Oswald at that time?

Mr. Boyd. With Oswald at that time—?

Mr. Ball. You took Oswald into Fritz' office about 2:20?

Mr. Boyd. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Who was there besides Oswald?

Mr. Boyd. Well, Captain Fritz, and let me see, there was some FBI agents.

Mr. Ball. Do you remember their names?

Mr. Boyd. I know one came in just shortly thereafter and I remember Mr. Bookhout and Mr. Hosty came in right after we got in there.

Mr. Ball. And who else was there?

Mr. Boyd. Mr. Hall and Mr. Sims; M. G. Hall is our other partner.

Mr. Ball. He's your other partner?

Mr. Boyd. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. And Sims was there, and was there a Secret Service man in there?

Mr. Boyd. Let me see—I think there was a Secret Service man there, but I don't recall—I don't know what his name was.

Mr. Ball. Do you remember what was said?

Mr. Boyd. Well, I don't remember exactly what was said.

Mr. Ball. Well, in general, what was the substance of what was said?

Mr. Boyd. Well——

Mr. Ball. Give me the substance.

Mr. Boyd. Well, I knew Captain Fritz asked him his name.

Mr. Ball. What did he say?

Mr. Boyd. I think he told us his name. I think when he asked him—I'm sure he told him his name because he would talk for a while and then he would quit.

124 Mr. Ball. Did he ask him where he lived?

Mr. Boyd. Yes, sir; I think he asked him where he lived.

Mr. Ball. What did he say?

Mr. Boyd. He said he lived over on Beckley.

Mr. Ball. Did he give the address?

Mr. Boyd. I believe that he said, well, I know he gave an address—I know he gave an address but he didn't say if it was north or south—I remember that—he didn't say if it was North Beckley or South Beckley and I remember another thing—Mr. Hosty came in and identified him himself, you know, as he came in.

Mr. Ball. What do you mean "identified him"?

Mr. Boyd. He took his identification out of his pocket and put it down there in front of him and told him who he was with.

Mr. Ball. He told Oswald his name and who he was with?

Mr. Boyd. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. What else happened?

Mr. Boyd. Well, they participated in the interrogation—Mr. Hosty asked him some questions and he was pretty upset with Mr. Hosty.

Mr. Ball. What do you mean by that, what gave you that impression—what happened?

Mr. Boyd. Well, just by Oswald's actions, he said he had been to his house two or three times talking to his wife and he didn't appreciate him coming out there when he wasn't there.

Mr. Ball. Is that what he said to Hosty?

Mr. Boyd. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Anything else?

Mr. Boyd. I don't recall—I know Mr. Hosty asked him several questions and finally he jumped up and hit the desk, Oswald did, and sat down, and like I say, he was pretty upset.

Mr. Ball. Was he handcuffed at that time?

Mr. Boyd. Yes; I believe he was handcuffed.

Mr. Ball. Was he handcuffed with his hands behind him?

Mr. Boyd. No, sir.

Mr. Ball. Had his hands been handcuffed behind him before he came into the room?

Mr. Boyd. I couldn't say if they had or not—they could have been.

Mr. Ball. Do you know whether the handcuffs were changed after he got in the room?

Mr. Boyd. They could have been changed after he got in the room—I'm not certain.

Mr. Ball. Who changed them?

Mr. Boyd. I don't recall.

Mr. Ball. Now, when Oswald jumped up and struck the desk, he struck the desk with what? With his hand?

Mr. Boyd. With his hands.

Mr. Ball. What did Hosty ask him before that?

Mr. Boyd. He had asked him about a trip to Mexico City?

Mr. Ball. Who did?

Mr. Boyd. Mr. Hosty.

Mr. Ball. What did Oswald say?

Mr. Boyd. He told him he hadn't been to Mexico City.

Mr. Ball. What else?

Mr. Boyd. I don't recall just exactly—I think that the words that he used when he was talking to Mr. Hosty was that he had been out there and accosted his wife, I believe that's the words that he used and like I said, after he talked to him, he said he didn't appreciate him coming out there to his house.

Mr. Ball. What was it that Hosty said before Oswald got up and struck the desk with his hand—what question did he ask?

Mr. Boyd. I don't remember what the question was. I know it had something to do with—let me see—I'm not sure if he was still talking to him about his wife or the trip to Mexico City.

Mr. Ball. You remember he did ask him if he took a trip to Mexico?

125 Mr. Boyd. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Oswald said he had not?

Mr. Boyd. He said he had not been to Mexico.

Mr. Ball. And what did Hosty say to that?

Mr. Boyd. He asked him if he denied being to Mexico City—I've just forgotten—it wasn't too awful long before that—I don't recall just exactly what time that he said—I know it was something recent.

Mr. Ball. What did Oswald say?

Mr. Boyd. He said he had not been there.

Mr. Ball. Do you remember anything else that was said?

Mr. Boyd. No, sir; right offhand—I don't.

Mr. Stern. Did he ask him anything about Russia?

Mr. Boyd. Yes, sir; something was asked him—I don't recall who asked him about that, and he told us about going over to Russia, I believe he was there in 1959, or something like that—about 1959. I'll tell you, I didn't keep notes in there because of the fact I was sitting right beside Oswald—right in front of him—more or less.

Mr. Ball. Did anybody keep notes?

Mr. Boyd. I saw the FBI man writing—they had a little book—across the table over there.

Mr. Ball. Did you have any microphones in there to record the conversation?

Mr. Boyd. No, sir.

Mr. Ball. Do you as a practice record the interrogations of your prisoners?

Mr. Boyd. No, sir; we don't.

Mr. Ball. How long did this take—how long was he questioned at this time?

Mr. Boyd. Let me see—we took him down to the first showup right after 4 o'clock, I think I have the exact time here—4:05 is when we left.

Mr. Ball. Was he in Captain Fritz' office from the time you took him in there—what time was that?

Mr. Boyd. At 2:15–2:20.

Mr. Ball. From 2:20 until 4 o'clock?

Mr. Boyd. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Now, you took him into the first showup, did you?

Mr. Boyd. Yes, we left Captain Fritz' office at 4:05.

Mr. Ball. Who picked the men to go in the showup with him?

Mr. Boyd. Who picked the men?

Mr. Ball. Yes.

Mr. Boyd. I don't recall who picked those men.

Mr. Ball. Did you?

Mr. Boyd. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. Ball. Did Sims?

Mr. Boyd. I don't recall if he did—I don't recall who picked those men.

Mr. Ball. Who were the men in this showup?

Mr. Boyd. Well, one of them's names was—we call him Bill Perry, his name is William E. Perry, he's a police officer and he was No. 1; and we had Lee Oswald, was No. 2; and R. L. Clark was No. 3; and Don Ables was No. 4.

Mr. Ball. The No. 4 man was a clerk there in the jail, was he?

Mr. Boyd. I believe he was a clerk down in the jail office.

Mr. Ball. Is it usual to have police officers show up with prisoners?

Mr. Boyd. Well, I have seen them in there before—I mean—it isn't done real often.

Mr. Ball. It's unusual to use officers to showup with prisoners?

Mr. Boyd. Well, I would say so, but I know that there has been officers.

Mr. Ball. Is that usual to use Don Ables, the clerk, in a showup?

Mr. Boyd. No, sir.

Mr. Ball. It is unusual?

Mr. Boyd. Yes.

Mr. Ball. The usual thing is to have other prisoners come in handcuffed with the suspect, isn't it?

Mr. Boyd. Yes.

Mr. Ball. Do you know why that wasn't done in this case?

Mr. Boyd. No; I do not.

126 Mr. Ball. When did you first learn that officers were going to go with you and with Oswald into the showup?

Mr. Boyd. When we got ready for the showup.

Mr. Ball. Did you hear anybody direct them to go into the showup with Oswald?

Mr. Boyd. No, sir.

Mr. Ball. You say when you got ready for the showup, that would mean where—where were you when you heard that officers were going to take part in the showup?

Mr. Boyd. Well, I guess it was down in the jail office. We took Lee Oswald down on the elevator and met the rest of them there in the jail office in the lobby there, to the best of my recollection.

Mr. Ball. Before you went into the showup, did you search Oswald?

Mr. Boyd. Yes; I did.

Mr. Ball. And what did you find?

Mr. Boyd. I found five .38 shells, I believe it was five.

Mr. Ball. Live? Live shells?

Mr. Boyd. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. What did you do with them?

Mr. Boyd. Well, I put them in an envelope and put them with the rest of the property up there to be turned in.

Mr. Ball. Did you put any mark on them?

Mr. Boyd. Let me see—I can look and see.

Mr. Ball. I will show you Commission Exhibit 592 in an envelope, will you take a look at that—at the cartridges?

Mr. Boyd. Yes—I got my mark on them.

Mr. Ball. You have your mark on all five of them?

Mr. Boyd. I have my mark on the first three—yes, sir—I have my mark on all of them.

Mr. Ball. On all five of them?

Mr. Boyd. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. You put those marks on there, did you?

Mr. Boyd. Yes, I did.

Mr. Ball. Now, looking those cartridges over, can you tell me whether these five cartridges, which constitute Commission Exhibit 592, are the cartridges which you took from Oswald?

Mr. Boyd. Yes; they are.

Mr. Ball. And where were you when you put the mark on them?

Mr. Boyd. I was back up in my office.

Mr. Ball. When you first took them from Oswald, where did you put them?

Mr. Boyd. I put them in my pocket.

Mr. Ball. And after you were back in the office, you put a mark on them, did you?

Mr. Boyd. Yes.

Mr. Ball. And turned them over to whom?

Mr. Boyd. Well, let me see—it seems like we had a drawer there where we had some more property, where we put it all in there—you know, where they had the other stuff—I have forgotten just exactly where it would be.

Mr. Ball. You turned them over to someone in the police department?

Mr. Boyd. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Now, the showup was conducted and what side of the showup were you on? Stage side or out front?

Mr. Boyd. I was right next to the door on the inside, where you go into that showup room from the room leading into the jail office.

Mr. Ball. Who asked the questions?

Mr. Boyd. Let me see—at one of the showups—I've forgotten whether it was on this particular one—whether it was someone out from—Sims asked him some questions in one of those showups.

Mr. Ball. Did you ever ask any questions?

Mr. Boyd. Not that I recall—I don't believe I did.

Mr. Ball. How were these men dressed that were in this showup?

127 Mr. Boyd. Well, let me think—some of them had coats and slacks and one of them—let's see—I don't recall what color, but some of them—I don't believe any of them had a tie on—the officers had taken their ties off and I think Ables, I believe, was in his shirt sleeves.

Mr. Ball. Without a tie—did he have a tie on?

Mr. Boyd. No, sir; I don't believe so.

Mr. Ball. Ables was in his shirt sleeves. What about the two officers, Perry?

Mr. Boyd. Now, I remember Perry had on a coat, but he didn't have his shirt buttoned back up at the top, I remember that.

Mr. Ball. What about Clark?

Mr. Boyd. As I remember, Clark had on a white shirt. Now, I'm not sure—well, I'm not sure if he had on a coat or not, but I remember seeing him in a white shirt as he came in.

Mr. Ball. Were they manacled—handcuffed?

Mr. Boyd. Yes; they were handcuffed.

Mr. Ball. All four of them?

Mr. Boyd. Yes—handcuffed together.

Mr. Ball. What did Oswald have on?

Mr. Boyd. Well, he had on some—I believe it was dark slacks—it seems like it was a brown shirt he had on—he had on a long-sleeved shirt. It seems like he had on a jacket when he first came up there—I'm not too sure about that jacket—I know he had on a sport shirt and slacks.

Mr. Ball. Well, his clothes were a little rougher in character than the other three, weren't they?

Mr. Boyd. Well, could have been.

Mr. Ball. The other three were better dressed than Oswald, would you say?

Mr. Boyd. Well, yes, sir; I would say they probably were.

Mr. Ball. Oswald had a shirt that had a frayed elbow, didn't he, a hole in the elbow, didn't he?

Mr. Boyd. I don't recall if he did or not—I'm not sure.

Mr. Ball. Now, when they asked questions of Oswald at this showup, did he reply?

Mr. Boyd. I believe he did at that one—I believe he did reply.

Mr. Ball. Was he angry?

Mr. Boyd. I don't believe he was too angry.

Mr. Ball. Did he shout or yell in a loud voice?

Mr. Boyd. I don't recall him shouting.

Mr. Ball. He didn't shout or speak in a loud voice at this time?

Mr. Boyd. No.

Mr. Ball. Did he at some other showup protest?

Mr. Boyd. I heard he did, but I don't know.

Mr. Ball. Were you present?

Mr. Boyd. I wasn't present at that one.

Mr. Ball. You weren't present at any time in which he made any protest of the type of showup?

Mr. Boyd. No, sir; I don't believe so.

Mr. Ball. This day—this first showup—did he protest that it was not a fair showup?

Mr. Boyd. I don't recall if he did.

Mr. Ball. Did he at any time tell you after the showup that he didn't think it was fair to put those men in with him?

Mr. Ball. He didn't tell me that—no, sir.

Mr. Ball. Did he ever tell you that any showup had been unfair?

Mr. Boyd. Not that I recall.

Mr. Ball. Now, did you hear any conversation that went on in the audience part of the showup?

Mr. Boyd. No, sir; I couldn't—I don't recall any of it—I couldn't hear anything.

Mr. Ball. Did you know any of the witnesses that were out there?

Mr. Boyd. I couldn't see them.

Mr. Ball. Did you take any witnesses' statements from people who were out in the audience?

128 Mr. Boyd. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. Ball. What did you do after that showup?

Mr. Boyd. I took him back—I took Lee Oswald back to Captain Fritz' office.

Mr. Ball. What time did you get him back there?

Mr. Boyd. Well, we left in there, I think it was 4:20—I believe—yes; that was by my watch. I was just going by my watch; it could have been off.

Mr. Ball. Who was present at that interrogation?

Mr. Boyd. Well, let me see—I don't recall who was up there—I think there was an FBI agent and I think a Secret Service man was up there and I don't recall the names of the ones that was there.

Mr. Ball. Was there only one FBI agent at that interrogation?

Mr. Boyd. Well, it seems like that's all there was up there—just one. I think another one came in—now, I never did know—there was another one that came in—now, I never did know—then there was another one that came in, but I didn't ever know if he was Secret Service or an FBI man—I never did know. But someone—I believe, called him back out right after he got in there, but I'm not sure.

Mr. Ball. Do you know the names of the FBI agents?

Mr. Boyd. No, sir.

Mr. Ball. How about the Secret Service?

Mr. Boyd. I don't know their names.

Mr. Ball. Was there a Secret Service man there?

Mr. Boyd. I think there was a Secret Service man there.

Mr. Ball. More than one?

Mr. Boyd. Just one.

Mr. Ball. Do you know his name?

Mr. Boyd. Let me see if I have it here.

Mr. Ball. Was Kelley there?

Mr. Boyd. Mr. Kelley was there at one interrogation.

Mr. Ball. How long did this one last that started at 4:20?

Mr. Boyd. Let me see—I don't know, but at 6:20 we took him back downstairs for another showup.

Mr. Ball. Do you think it lasted 2 hours, the interrogation in Fritz' office?

Mr. Boyd. Well, no, sir; I don't think they were in there that long.

Mr. Ball. Did you feed Oswald at any time?

Mr. Boyd. Mr. Hall—I don't know—I believe someone asked him if he wanted anything and he said he didn't. Mr. Hall finally gave him a cup of coffee—he finally took a cup of coffee from Mr. Hall—I don't recall just exactly the time—that's M. G. Hall.

Mr. Ball. He's one of your partners?

Mr. Boyd. Yes, sir [spelling] H-a-l-l, and I think—let me see—I know that he gave him a cup of coffee.

Mr. Ball. Well, from the time that you first took Oswald into your custody after 2:15 or so, you said, until you put him in jail that night about 12:20, or 12:30, did he have anything to eat?

Mr. Boyd. I don't believe so because he said he didn't want anything.

Mr. Ball. Did you eat?

Mr. Boyd. I ate real late that night—I don't remember just what time it was.

Mr. Ball. How late?

Mr. Boyd. I think I ate around 9 o'clock—I'm not sure about that—it could have been 10.

Mr. Ball. Now, in this interrogation that started about 4:20, do you remember what was said?

Mr. Boyd. No, sir; I sure don't.

Mr. Ball. Was Oswald handcuffed?

Mr. Boyd. Yes, sir; I think he was handcuffed.

Mr. Ball. Were the handcuffs in front or behind?

Mr. Boyd. They were in front of him, I believe, still.

Mr. Ball. Do you remember anything that took place at that interrogation—anything that was said?

Mr. Boyd. No, sir—I sure don't.

Mr. Ball. Now, at 6:20 there was another showup?

129 Mr. Boyd. Yes.

Mr. Ball. And who was present at that showup?

Mr. Boyd. We had the same showup as we had had before and they were numbered the same as they were before.

Mr. Ball. Were the men dressed any differently?

Mr. Boyd. No, sir; they were dressed like they were before.

Mr. Ball. And do you know who conducted the showup—asked the questions?

Mr. Boyd. Now, I believe that this is the one that Mr. Sims asked some questions.

Mr. Ball. Do you know who it was that asked the questions at the first showup that afternoon?

Mr. Boyd. No, sir; I do not.

Mr. Ball. Was there a Mr. Leavelle on duty that day?

Mr. Boyd. Mr. Leavelle was down there, I believe, on that day.

Mr. Ball. Did he ask questions at any of the showups?

Mr. Boyd. I think he did, but I'm afraid to say for sure because I don't really know.

Mr. Ball. At the second showup, did Oswald answer the questions—at 6:20?

Mr. Boyd. Yes; I think he answered the questions.

Mr. Ball. Was he angry?

Mr. Boyd. I don't recall him being angry.

Mr. Ball. Did he talk louder than the other three men?

Mr. Boyd. Not especially that I noticed.

Mr. Ball. Did you hear any of the conversation that went on in the audience part of the showup?

Mr. Boyd. No, sir.

Mr. Ball. Did you hear anything that was said to the witnesses, or what they said to the officers?

Mr. Boyd. No, sir.

Mr. Ball. What did you do after that showup?

Mr. Boyd. We took him back up to Captain Fritz' office.

Mr. Ball. That was about what time?

Mr. Boyd. I think it was 6:30 or 7 when we left the showup room when we took him there.

Mr. Ball. Who was present in Captain Fritz' office at that time?

Mr. Boyd. Well, that was when Justice of the Peace David Johnston [spelling] J-o-h-n-s-t-o-n, and our assistant district attorney, Bill Alexander, William F. Alexander, I believe is his true name—they came in with Captain Fritz.

Mr. Ball. Oswald was there too, was he?

Mr. Boyd. Yes.

Mr. Ball. What took place there?

Mr. Boyd. Well, Captain Fritz signed a murder complaint against Lee Harvey Oswald and that was for the murder of J. D. Tippit.

Mr. Ball. Was there some conversation that took place there at that time in front of Oswald?

Mr. Boyd. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. What was it, that you can remember?

Mr. Boyd. Well, I believe Judge Johnston, I believe, read the charge to Oswald, and—well, I don't recall the rest of that conversation.

Mr. Ball. Do you remember what Oswald said?

Mr. Boyd. No, sir.

Mr. Ball. At any time in any of the interrogations did you ever hear of anyone accuse Oswald of having shot Officer Tippit?

Mr. Boyd. Yes, sir—I heard—I believe I heard Captain Fritz talk to him about shooting Officer Tippit—I don't remember what interrogation it was in.

Mr. Ball. What did Oswald say?

Mr. Boyd. He said he didn't shoot anyone.

Mr. Ball. Did you ever hear anybody accuse Oswald of shooting the President, President Kennedy?

Mr. Boyd. I remember hearing them talk to him about shooting the President.

Mr. Ball. Who talked to him about it?

Mr. Boyd. I believe it was Captain Fritz.

130 Mr. Ball. What did Oswald say?

Mr. Boyd. He said he didn't shoot anyone.

Mr. Ball. Now, do you remember what Oswald said when Judge Johnston read the charge to Oswald? The charge of murder of Tippit, if he said anything?

Mr. Boyd. I think he said something, but I cannot tell you what it was.

Mr. Ball. You don't recall that?

Mr. Boyd. No, sir.

Mr. Ball. Oswald did make some statement, though?

Mr. Boyd. I believe he said something—yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Did he ask for a lawyer?

Mr. Boyd. Well, let me see, he wanted to get in touch with a lawyer—I believe it was a lawyer by the name of Abt [spelling] A-b-t in New York City.

Mr. Ball. When did he say that? When did he tell you that?

Mr. Boyd. It was—either right before the first showup, or right after the first showup.

Mr. Ball. What did you tell him?

Mr. Boyd. Captain Fritz said he would—he didn't ask me, he was talking to Captain Fritz—yes.

Mr. Ball. This was in Captain Fritz' office?

Mr. Boyd. Yes.

Mr. Ball. What did Fritz say?

Mr. Boyd. He said he would see if he could make arrangements later on for him to use the telephone later on and call him.

Mr. Ball. Was anything said about who would pay for the call?

Mr. Boyd. No, sir.

Mr. Ball. No mention of that?

Mr. Boyd. I think he said he would call collect—I'm not sure.

Mr. Ball. Who said that—Oswald?

Mr. Boyd. Oswald.

Mr. Ball. Now, after the murder complaint was signed, what did you do?

Mr. Boyd. Well, let me see, I believe after that was signed, Mr. Clements—I believe, came in there.

Mr. Ball. In where?

Mr. Boyd. In Captain Fritz' office, and started talking to Lee Oswald.

Mr. Ball. And do you remember what he asked him?

Mr. Boyd. Well, I know he asked him about his name and I think he asked him where he was born, I think, and he asked him about his life in Russia—when he went to Russia and when he came back—I don't recall all of that.

Mr. Ball. And Oswald answered the questions?

Mr. Boyd. Yes, sir; I'll tell you—Oswald, he answered his questions until he finally—well, this interrogation was interrupted by another showup, and after we came back up Mr. Clements continued his interrogation and finally Oswald told him he was just tired talking and he thought he had talked long enough and he didn't have anything else to say.

He came in there and he wanted to get a little—well, he told him he wanted to get a little of his personal history and background, and Oswald finally got up and said, "What started out to be a short interrogation turned out to be rather lengthy," and he said, "I believe I have answered all the questions I have cared to answer, and I don't care to say anything else."

And sat back down.

Mr. Ball. He stood up and said that, did he?

Mr. Boyd. Yes; he stood up and said it. He just sat back in the chair and said, "I don't care to talk any more."

Mr. Ball. The first interrogation by Clements was interrupted, wasn't it?

Mr. Boyd. Yes.

Mr. Ball. That was interrupted by a showup, and that would be the third showup that you participated in?

Mr. Boyd. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. And that took place at what time?

Mr. Boyd. It was 7:30, let me see, no—7:40.

131 Mr. Ball. And who took part in that showup?

Mr. Boyd. You mean the officers?

Mr. Ball. No; who were the parties in the showup?

Mr. Boyd. Well, the first one was Richard Walter Borchgardt, and No. 2 was Lee Harvey Oswald, and No. 3 was—I have the wrong name in here—I have the last name—I just asked him his name as he came out in the showup room there and I understood him to say it was Braswell but it was Brazel.

Mr. Ball. Brazell—how do you spell that?

Mr. Boyd. [Spelling.] Brazel. B-r-a-z-e-l.

Mr. Ball. What is his full name?

Mr. Boyd. Ellis Carl Brazel.

Mr. Ball. He was the third man?

Mr. Boyd. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Who was the fourth man?

Mr. Boyd. Don Ables was the fourth.

Mr. Ball. Was there some reason why you changed the parties to the showup?

Mr. Boyd. I don't know any reason.

Mr. Ball. Who directed that?

Mr. Boyd. I don't know—we met them down in the jail office and they had those three men down there.

Mr. Ball. What is the usual thing—when you are going to have a showup and you are in charge of investigation, who picks the people who appear in the showup?

Mr. Boyd. Well, most of the time we call down to the jail office and have them send us down—if he's already in jail, we just have them send up there and get him and just how many we want in the showup and we will tell them to give us this particular one—or three or four men—whatever the case may be.

Mr. Ball. Who picks them?

Mr. Boyd. The jailers upstairs.

Mr. Ball. Do you tell them to get them all the same color?

Mr. Boyd. Yes, sir; we always tell them to get them all the same color. I never have had too much trouble getting them all the same color.

Mr. Ball. What about the size and weight?

Mr. Boyd. Now, we always tell them to get them as near the same size and age and weight as they can. Sometimes they do and sometimes they don't.

Mr. Ball. In this case you didn't pick the men for the showup?

Mr. Boyd. I didn't know them—no, sir.

Mr. Ball. Or any of the showups?

Mr. Boyd. No, sir.

Mr. Ball. Now, this third showup took place at what time?

Mr. Boyd. We left the office at 7:40 and it takes, like I say, 2 or 3 minutes to get downstairs, and we got him back—we left down there to go back up at 7:55.

Mr. Ball. Who conducted the questioning on this third showup which you attended?

Mr. Boyd. I don't recall who did.

Mr. Ball. What about Oswald's manner in the third showup?

Mr. Boyd. I don't recall him being any different in that showup than the first two.

Mr. Ball. What about the appearance of the men in this showup—let's take the No. 1 man—what was his coloring and weight and size?

Mr. Boyd. Well, let's see—this is that Richard Walter Borchgardt. He was born May 30, 1940, and our records show him to be 5' 9", and 161 pounds.

Mr. Ball. That's [spelling] B-o-r-c-h-g-a-r-d-t?

Mr. Boyd. That's [spelling] B-o-r-c-h-g-a-r-d-t.

Mr. Ball. 161 pounds?

Mr. Boyd. Yes, sir; he had brown hair and blue eyes and fair complexion.

Mr. Ball. What was he in for, do you know?

Mr. Boyd. Yes, he was in for CPW and investigation of burglary and theft.

Mr. Ball. Then, the second man was who?

Mr. Boyd. Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. Ball. And the third man—was who?

132 Mr. Boyd. Ellis Carl Brazel [spelling] B-r-a-z-e-l.

Mr. Ball. That's [spelling] B-r-a-z-e-l—just one "l"?

Mr. Boyd. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. He was No. 3 and what is his description?

Mr. Boyd. He was born November 24, 1941, and it shows him to be 5' 10", 169 pounds, green eyes, blond hair, ruddy complexion.

Mr. Ball. What was he in for?

Mr. Boyd. I think he was in for tickets.

Mr. Ball. You mean, going too fast—speeding?

Mr. Boyd. Yes, sir; I believe that's right, or having some overdue tickets—he could have been in for something else, but that's what I think he was in for.

Mr. Ball. And Don Ables is the fourth man?

Mr. Boyd. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. He was the No. 4 man in the first two shows, too?

Mr. Boyd. This shows him to be 5' 9", 165 pounds.

Mr. Ball. What do you have Oswald down for?

Mr. Boyd. I don't have his description down, but I think he told me he was 5' and 8" or 9" and weighed 140-something pounds—I believe that is what he told me.

Mr. Ball. Do you know what happened to Borchgardt?

Mr. Boyd. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. Ball. Or to Brazel?

Mr. Boyd. No, sir.

Mr. Ball. Now, in this showup, the third showup, was Oswald's manner any different than it had been the first two showups?

Mr. Boyd. I don't recall it being any different.

Mr. Ball. Did he shout, yell, or anything of the sort?

Mr. Boyd. I don't believe, because when he got back upstairs there, he started talking to Mr. Clements again and he didn't get upset.

Mr. Ball. How long did he talk to Mr. Clements? This last time?

Mr. Boyd. Well, let's see—he didn't talk to him but for about half an hour.

Mr. Ball. Then, after that what happened?

Mr. Boyd. Well, after Mr. Clements left, well, in a few minutes Detective Johnny Hicks and R. L. Studebaker from the crime lab came down to the office, that's Captain Fritz' office, and Detective Hicks fingerprinted Oswald and Sgt. Pete Barnes came in, and shortly afterward Capt. George Doughty came down and stayed just a few minutes and went back up, and he left out and I don't know where he went.

Mr. Ball. What did Barnes do?

Mr. Boyd. Well, he helped Johnny Hicks make some paraffin casts of Oswald's hands and the right side of his face.

Mr. Ball. You were there when that happened?

Mr. Boyd. I was in and out—I was in more than I was out. I was in and out at the time that was going on.

Mr. Ball. Then what happened—what did you do after that?

Mr. Boyd. About 11:30 Mr. Sims and I made out some arrest sheets on Lee Oswald.

Mr. Ball. And where was Oswald then?

Mr. Boyd. He was still up in the homicide office.

Mr. Ball. Did you question him again?

Mr. Boyd. No, sir.

Mr. Ball. And what did you do after that?

Mr. Boyd. Well, shortly after that Chief Curry and Captain Fritz came in, and Chief Curry asked us to take Lee Oswald back down into the assembly room and to take him out in front of the showup stage, and he told us not to let anyone get near to him or touch him—if they did—if anyone even tried it, to take him immediately to jail.

Mr. Boyd. What did you do then?

Mr. Boyd. We went down there and stayed, I'll say, 5 minutes or so.

Mr. Ball. What happened when you stayed the 5 minutes—describe what you did?

Mr. Boyd. Well, there was a bunch of news reporters down there.

133 Mr. Ball. Television cameras?

Mr. Boyd. I believe there was some cameras in there—I'm not sure about the cameras—I know that there was a lot of reporters down there. They had some cameras on the outside.

Mr. Ball. What did you do with Oswald?

Mr. Boyd. We took him up there and some of them asked him some questions and he talked back and forth there for a minute and finally we got him and took him up in the jail office and carried him on up and put him in the jail.

Mr. Ball. Was Oswald angry?

Mr. Boyd. Part of the time he was.

Mr. Ball. What was said—can you remember?

Mr. Boyd. I remember somebody hollering out back there, "Why did you shoot the President?"

Mr. Ball. What did he say?

Mr. Boyd. He said, "I didn't shoot anyone."

Mr. Ball. You took him on up there, then, did you?

Mr. Boyd. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. And you put him in jail for the night, did you?

Mr. Boyd. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. And then you went home and went to bed?

Mr. Boyd. Later on I did.

Mr. Ball. What time did you go to work the next day—that would be November 23.

Mr. Boyd. I think I got in around 9 o'clock.

Mr. Ball. Then what did you do?

Mr. Boyd. I arrived at 9:30 and I stayed around the office until 10:25 and Mr. Sims, Hall, and myself went up and got Lee Oswald out of jail again and brought him down to my office.

Mr. Ball. Who told you to do that?

Mr. Boyd. Captain Fritz.

Mr. Ball. What did you do when you brought him down to your office?

Mr. Boyd. Well, Mr. Fritz and the FBI and Mr. Robert Nash, the U.S. marshal, and Mr. Kelley of Secret Service were in Captain Fritz' office at that time.

Mr. Ball. Who else was in the office?

Mr. Boyd. Let me see—I believe Mr. Sims and Hall, and Captain Fritz were there.

Mr. Ball. Now, Sims said he didn't stay there.

Mr. Boyd. Well, he came back out after we got him down there—that's right.

Mr. Ball. You stayed there, didn't you?

Mr. Boyd. Yes.

Mr. Ball. And you heard what was said?

Mr. Boyd. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Tell us what you heard.

Mr. Boyd. Well, I know Mr. Nash asked him a question or two.

Mr. Ball. What were they?

Mr. Boyd. I don't recall what questions he asked.

Mr. Ball. Who else asked questions?

Mr. Boyd. Captain Fritz talked to him and—let me see—I don't remember if Mr. Bookhout—it seemed like Mr. Bookhout asked a question or two—I believe all of them asked him something.

Mr. Ball. Do you know what they asked?

Mr. Boyd. No, sir.

Mr. Ball. Do you remember what Oswald said?

Mr. Boyd. Well, let me see—no, sir; I can't recall what he said; like I say, I didn't keep notes there because I was sitting right near Oswald.

Mr. Ball. Was Oswald handcuffed?

Mr. Boyd. Yes; he was handcuffed.

Mr. Ball. Were the handcuffs in the front or in the back?

Mr. Boyd. They were in the front of him.

Mr. Ball. How long did this questioning last?

Mr. Boyd. It didn't last too awful long—about an hour or so, I believe, and we took him back to the jail at 11:30.

134 Mr. Ball. Then what did you do?

Mr. Boyd. Then Mr. Sims and Hall and Mr. Dhority, who is another detective in our bureau—went out to 1026 North Beckley to recheck Oswald's room out there.

Mr. Ball. Did you go out there then?

Mr. Boyd. Yes.

Mr. Ball. Did you have a search warrant?

Mr. Boyd. Let me see—I'm not sure if I had a search warrant—I know the landlady was there and let us in there. I didn't have the search warrant myself, I'll say that. One of the other officers might have had a search warrant.

Mr. Ball. But you didn't have one?

Mr. Boyd. I didn't have one.

Mr. Ball. You don't know whether you had one or not?

Mr. Boyd. I know there was a search warrant gotten but I didn't get it.

Mr. Ball. Well, there was a search warrant issued to search 1026 North Beckley the day before?

Mr. Boyd. Yes.

Mr. Ball. And it was searched the day before—you knew that, didn't you?

Mr. Boyd. Yes.

Mr. Ball. When you searched it this day, what did you find?

Mr. Boyd. Nothing.

Mr. Ball. Did you take anything with you?

Mr. Boyd. No, sir.

Mr. Ball. You took nothing out?

Mr. Boyd. I don't believe so. I think it was pretty clean.

Mr. Ball. What kind of furnishings did you see in there?

Mr. Boyd. Well, I saw a little bed, just a little small dresser—it barely would go in there and you barely did have room enough to walk between the dresser and the wall. The fact is the whole works were—wasn't any wider than that—just about that wide [indicating].

Mr. Ball. The whole room?

Mr. Boyd. The whole room.

Mr. Ball. It wasn't any wider than how many feet?

Mr. Boyd. I would say it wasn't over about 12 feet long and about 5 feet wide or something like that.

Mr. Ball. Did it have curtains on the windows?

Mr. Boyd. Well, it had—let's see, I'm not sure if it was curtains or blinds. It had one little bed in there and it barely did have room enough to get in there and go to bed.

Mr. Ball. You don't recall whether it had curtains or blinds?

Mr. Boyd. No, sir; I do not.

Mr. Ball. Did you see Oswald again that day?

Mr. Boyd. I don't believe I did—let me see.

Mr. Ball. Well, it says in your report you brought him in at 6:30.

Mr. Boyd. I didn't do that.

Mr. Ball. You didn't do it? You were off duty?

Mr. Boyd. I wasn't off duty, but I just wasn't at the office at that time.

Mr. Ball. You don't think you saw him again?

Mr. Boyd. I don't believe so.

Mr. Ball. What about November 24?

Mr. Boyd. I worked late on the night of the 23d so I wouldn't have to come back early the next morning.

Mr. Ball. Then, you were with him on the 24th?

Mr. Boyd. I wasn't with him on the 24th—I was watching on the TV at home—I wasn't at home—I was out at my mother-in-law's at Irving, Tex., and I called Lieutenant Baker right after I learned about Oswald.

Mr. Ball. I want to ask you a question about Oswald's appearance when you first saw him. Did he have any marks on his face?

Mr. Boyd. He had one markup—I believe it was on his left eye—the thing that I noticed or was noticeable. And I asked him where he got that and he said, "Well, I struck an officer and he struck me back." He said, "Which he should have done."

Mr. Ball. Did he say "He should have done that?" Did Oswald say that?

135 Mr. Boyd. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. I want the exact words, not your version—give me the exact words.

Mr. Boyd. I'll tell you—I asked him how he got this place on his eye, and he says, "Well, I struck an officer and the officer struck me back, which he should have done."

Mr. Ball. Those were the exact words?

Mr. Boyd. Those were the exact words.

Mr. Ball. Was there anything else said about that?

Mr. Boyd. No, sir; he didn't seem too much upset about it.

Mr. Ball. Did he ever complain to you that he had been abused by the officers at the time of the arrest?

Mr. Boyd. No, sir.

Mr. Ball. Did he ever use the term that "police brutality"—did he ever use that term to you?

Mr. Boyd. I don't remember him ever using the term "police brutality".

Mr. Ball. Did he ever ask you to get him a lawyer?

Mr. Boyd. No, sir; he didn't ask me to get him one.

Mr. Ball. Were you present at any time when a lawyer visited Oswald?

Mr. Boyd. No, sir; I wasn't present—we asked him, did he want a lawyer here—Captain Fritz the next morning had asked him, and he said he didn't want a lawyer, he wanted Mr. Abt.

Mr. Ball. Do you have some questions?

Mr. Stern. What was your impression of Oswald—the way he handled himself, what kind of a man did he seem to you?

Mr. Boyd. I'll tell you, I've never saw another man just exactly like him.

Mr. Stern. In what way?

Mr. Boyd. Well, you know, he acted like he was intelligent; just as soon as you would ask him a question, he would just give you the answer right back—he didn't hesitate about his answers. I mean, as soon as you would pop him a question, he would shoot you an answer right back and, like I said, I never saw a man that could answer questions like he did.

Mr. Stern. Did he seem to be under stress or calm in those terms?

Mr. Boyd. Well, at times he was just as calm as could be, then once in a while he would—I don't know just how to tell you, but every now and then he would be talking and he would be just as calm and the next minute he would just liable to be—I mean his attitude, you know, would change, you know, rather frequently, but most of the time when he would be talking to you he was rather calm.

Mr. Stern. When it changed, was it for any noticeable reason or did it change apparently?

Mr. Boyd. Well, most of the time, you know, it was just when somebody would say something—some little something he didn't like, and he would—he didn't become mad, but the worst thing he did was when he jumped up and slapped the desk.

Mr. Stern. During the Hosty interrogation?

Mr. Boyd. Yes, sir.

Mr. Stern. He seemed to you to understand generally his rights?

Mr. Boyd. Yes, sir.

Mr. Stern. And do you know that he wasn't required to answer?

Mr. Boyd. Yes, sir.

Mr. Stern. Of course, this was a long day for everybody—did he seem by the end of the day still to be in command of himself, or did he appear tired or particularly worn out?

Mr. Boyd. Well, he didn't appear to be as tired as I felt—he didn't appear to be, because I imagine he could have been tired—he didn't show it.

Mr. Stern. This is quite unnatural—really rather exceptional; this is, of course, why you say somewhat unusual, a man accused of killing two people, one of them the President of the United States, and at the end of the day, he is pretty well in command?

Can you tell us in any other respect about the kind of person he seemed to you—anything else that you observed about him, as you now recall?

136 Mr. Boyd. I don't know—he just struck me as being the man, you know, who liked to move around a lot—I don't know that he did, but he just struck me as being a man that acted like he was not satisfied and—in one place.

Mr. Ball. When you participated in the search of Oswald and found five pistol cartridges in his pants pocket, was there any discussion of these bullets with him; did he say anything, or did you say anything to him about it?

Mr. Boyd. I just asked him, "What were they doing in there," and he said, "I just had them in my pocket."

Mr. Stern. The memorandum mentions the cartridges—bus transfer, except that he had a ring on his finger which he took off and he gave it to Mr. Sims, Do you remember any other items that he had that you got from him during this search?

Mr. Boyd. No, sir; I know that Mr. Sims did get the bus transfer and took his ring—he took his ring off and give it to Mr. Sims, and I got those five shells, and that's all that I recall being taken from him.

Mr. Stern. Do you remember an identification bracelet in the course of that investigation?

Mr. Boyd. Let me see—I'm trying to think if he had an identification bracelet.

When we were up in Captain Fritz' office the first time—I recall—I don't recall if I saw that bracelet then or not—it seemed like I did. I know I saw a little card with his picture on it.

Mr. Stern. But this was not something you obtained in your search?

Mr. Boyd. No; I didn't.

Mr. Stern. That had been obtained earlier, apparently.

That's all. Do you have anything else?

Mr. Ely. Yes. Mr. Boyd, when you first saw Oswald when you went to the interrogation room and got him—do you remember that?

Mr. Boyd. Yes.

Mr. Ely. Who was with him in the interrogation room prior to your arrival?

Mr. Boyd. I am not positive about who was with him—there's some uniformed men in there and I believe there was Officer K. E. Lyons, but I would be afraid to say for sure, because I'm not positive, but I believe that's who it was.

Mr. Ely. Do you know whether whoever it was there with them, were they talking to him or questioning him, or don't you know?

Mr. Boyd. Well, I don't know. I just took it that they were the ones that brought him into—into the office up there. They were more or less just waiting for somebody.

I just assumed they were part of the officers that were out in the Texas Theatre where they arrested him and transferred down to our office from Oak Cliff.

Mr. Ely. Now, referring to the press conference Friday night, I believe you mentioned that part of the time Oswald seemed angry to you, do you know what it was that upset him?

Mr. Boyd. When someone called to him and asked him why he shot the President, that seemed like that's what upset him.

Mr. Ely. Do you know if there is anyone who could tell us who picked the people in the various lineups—you don't know exactly, but did you know, is there anybody you could tell us?

Mr. Boyd. I just don't know who it would be.

Mr. Ely. On Friday night, about what time did you check Oswald into the jail there?

Mr. Boyd. I think it was around 12:20 in the morning, I believe. According to my watch, I believe that's what I went by—that's what the time would be, of course, it could be a few minutes off. We turned him over to the jailers at 12:23 a.m.

Mr. Ely. Do you know whether he was checked out of the jail again after that time? Late at night—I realize you checked him out the next morning.

Mr. Boyd. No sir; I don't know.

Mr. Ely. You I don't know?

Mr. Boyd. No.

Mr. Ely. I believe that's all I have.

Mr. Ball. Well, Mr. Boyd, this will be written up and it will be submitted to137 you and you can read it over and correct it and sign it if you wish. That's one procedure you can follow.

Or, this young lady will write it up and we'll send it on to the Commission as it is if you waive your signature. You have your option—you can do either one.

Mr. Boyd. I think she probably got it down all right—I'll trust her.

Mr. Ball. Then, you are waiving your signature?

Mr. Boyd. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Thank you very much, and I am glad to have met you.

Mr. Boyd. Glad to have met you, Mr. Ball.


TESTIMONY OF ROBERT LEE STUDEBAKER

The testimony of Robert Lee Studebaker was taken at 3:45 p.m., on April 6, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Messrs. Joseph A. Ball, John Hart Ely, and Samuel A. Stern, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Dr. Alfred Goldberg, historian, was present.

Mr. Ball. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you give before this Commission to be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. Studebaker. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Will you state your name, please?

Mr. Studebaker. R. L. Studebaker—Robert Lee.

Mr. Ball. And you have been requested to appear here to give testimony in this inquiry, have you not, by your Chief of Police, who told you that we had a matter requiring your testimony?

Mr. Studebaker. Yes.

Mr. Ball. The subject of the testimony is the assassination of President Kennedy.

You made certain investigations on November 22 and 23 and 24 with respect to that, did you not?

Mr. Studebaker. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. What I want to ask you is what you did at that time. Can you tell me something about yourself, where you were born, where you went to school, and what your training is?

Mr. Studebaker. I was born in Niles, Mich., and attended several schools and have been in Dallas and I have been in the Air Force and came to Dallas in 1950, and have been in the Police Department since February 8, 1954, and right now I am a detective in the Crime Scene Service Section of the ID Bureau of the Dallas Police Department.

Mr. Ball. What sort of training did you have for the crime lab work that you are doing?

Mr. Studebaker. It's just on-the-job training—you go out with old officers and learn how to dust for prints and take pictures and fingerprints.

Mr. Ball. Have you had any special training in identification fingerprints?

Mr. Studebaker. No, sir; we don't classify prints too much where we are. We just compare them.

Mr. Ball. What is the technique of lifting a print, as you call it?

Mr. Studebaker. Well, it's just using the regular dusting powder that we have and if you find something that you want to dust, you dust for the print. We used on this special case up there on those boxes and things, we have a special powder that we used on that.

Mr. Ball. Then you take a picture of the print—a photograph?

Mr. Studebaker. Of this area, we just taped it to preserve it. We just lift the print and then tape it to preserve it.

Mr. Ball. By "lifting a print," you mean to make it stand out?

Mr. Studebaker. Raising it up; yes, sir.

138 Mr. Ball. By means of your dusting powder?

Mr. Studebaker. By a chemical, yes. This certain print that was up there, we used this special powder for cardboard and paper. That's what it's used for.

Mr. Ball. Now, on the 22d of November 1963, were you on duty that day?

Mr. Studebaker. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. What time did you go to work?

Mr. Studebaker. 7 a.m.

Mr. Ball. In the morning?

Mr. Studebaker. Yes.

Mr. Ball. What are your hours—7 to 3?

Mr. Studebaker. 7 to 3.

Mr. Ball. Did you get a call to go down to the Texas School Book Depository?

Mr. Studebaker. Yes.

Mr. Ball. What time did you go down there?

Mr. Studebaker. I believe we got the call about 1:05—we was down there about 1:15.

Mr. Ball. And whom did you go with?

Mr. Studebaker. Lieutenant Day and I answered the call.

Mr. Ball. What equipment did you take with you?

Mr. Studebaker. We took our camera and fingerprint kits and our truck. We have a truck that is equipped with all that stuff—a station wagon.

Mr. Ball. Each one of you had a camera, did you?

Mr. Studebaker. No, sir; we just had one camera.

Mr. Ball. What kind of camera was it?

Mr. Studebaker. It's a Graflex, a 4 by 5 Speed Graflex.

Mr. Ball. Have you had some experience in operating a camera?

Mr. Studebaker. Yes.

Mr. Ball. How much?

Mr. Studebaker. Well, on this certain camera?

Mr. Ball. Yes.

Mr. Studebaker. About 2 months.

Mr. Ball. But you have had photography in your crime lab work?

Mr. Studebaker. Yes.

Mr. Ball. For how long?

Mr. Studebaker. Was about 2 months.

Mr. Ball. How long have you done photography altogether?

Mr. Studebaker. In my lifetime?

Mr. Ball. No, as one of the assistants in the crime lab, what period of years?

Mr. Studebaker. 2 months. I went to the crime lab in October, the 1st of October.

Mr. Ball. You did—had you done any photography before that?

Mr. Studebaker. Just home photography.

Mr. Ball. And the fingerprint equipment, is that the dusting powder you mentioned?

Mr. Studebaker. Yes.

Mr. Ball. And what else?

Mr. Studebaker. Just anything we had in the truck. We have the truck complete.

Mr. Ball. You have different kinds of fingerprint dusting powder for different substances?

Mr. Studebaker. Yes.

Mr. Ball. How many different kinds of powder do you have?

Mr. Studebaker. Well, we have a gray powder that we use for lifting prints and use under an ultra-violet light and we have a black volcano powder that we use on white or grey surfaces, and then just recently we purchased this new powder—it's a magnetic powder. It's a new type of powder that you just use something like a pen to lift your powder out of the jar that it's in and it will lift a print off of a paper better than your regular dusting powder. It's more accurate in lifting a print than anything I have ever seen. It's a new type powder—a magnetic powder is what it is, and they have a jet black and a gray and a silver-gray and different types of powder in there that you can use on different types surfaces.

139 Mr. Ball. By "lifting the prints," you mean it stands out?

Mr. Studebaker. Raising the print up, raising the invisible print which is a latent print and it will raise the moisture out of the paper that it is pressed on. It takes 7 pounds of pressure to leave a latent fingerprint and the moisture in your fingers, in the pores of your skin, is what leaves the print on the paper, but it is invisible until you put your powder on there and then it raises it.

Mr. Ball. Now, on this day when you went to the Texas School Book Depository Building, did you go directly to some particular floor?

Mr. Studebaker. We went to the entrance and they said it was on the sixth floor and we went directly to the sixth floor.

Mr. Ball. Then, were you directed to some place on the sixth floor, as soon as you arrived there?

Mr. Studebaker. No; they hadn't found anything when we got there.

Mr. Ball. After you were there a little while, did somebody find something?

Mr. Studebaker. They found the empty hulls in the southeast corner of the building—they found three empty hulls and we went over there and took photographs of that.

Mr. Ball. Do you have that photograph with you?

Mr. Studebaker. Yes.

Mr. Ball. Could I see it, please?

Mr. Studebaker. Now, I took two of the photographs and Lieutenant Day took two. We took double shots on each one. These are the ones I took myself—these pictures. There's the two pictures that I took. This one was right before anything was moved. There is a hull here, a hull here, and a hull over here.

Mr. Ball. Now, this picture you have just identified as the picture you took, we will mark it as Exhibit "A" in your deposition.

Mr. Studebaker. Yes, sir.

(Instrument referred to marked by the reporter as "Studebaker Exhibit A," for identification.)

Mr. Studebaker. Yes, sir; now, on this negative right down here in the bottom corner of this negative, there is another hull—you can just barely see the tip of it right here, and when this picture was printed, the exposure of the printing left this out, but I have one—I didn't know this was like that, but I have another one that shows this hull this way.

You see these boxes all right stacked up here, and you couldn't get over here to take another picture in that way, without getting up on everything and messing everything up. This is exact before anything was ever moved or picked up.

There are just two different views there. You probably got one or two recopies. We printed a bunch of them.

Mr. Ball. Is this the same picture?

Mr. Studebaker. That's the same picture, only you don't have it there either.

Mr. Ball. It doesn't show it?

Mr. Studebaker. It doesn't show the third hull laying beside this box.

Mr. Ball. We have a picture which shows the three hulls, which is Exhibit A, and a picture showing the two hulls, will be marked "Exhibit B."

(Instrument referred to marked by the reporter as "Studebaker Exhibit B," for identification.)

Mr. Studebaker. The first pictures was shots on the southeast facing west, and this one here is facing east.

Mr. Ball. In other words, Exhibit A was filmed from the east, with the camera facing west?

Mr. Studebaker. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. And Exhibit B is what?

Mr. Studebaker. Facing east.

Mr. Ball. You are facing east?

Mr. Studebaker. We have a jacket we made up that has all of those pictures numbered in there, and I believe he made an explanation on every one of those.

Mr. Ball. We will identify your Exhibit A as your No. 20 and your Exhibit B as your No. 19. Now, what other pictures did you take?

Mr. Studebaker. Of the rifle?

140 Mr. Ball. Yes.

Mr. Studebaker. Yes, sir; that's why, right after these were taken, they said they had found a rifle and to bring the cameras over to the northwest corner of the building where the rifle was found and I loaded everything up and carried it over there.

Mr. Ball. Did you take a picture of that?

Mr. Studebaker. Yes, sir; on these, Lieutenant Day also took pictures of those, and he also took pictures of this gun. We took two shots apiece.

Mr. Ball. Let's see the shots you took of the place where the gun was located?

Mr. Studebaker. I know it's mine because my knees are in the picture.

Mr. Ball. Do you remember the name of the deputy sheriff that found the gun?

Mr. Studebaker. No, I don't.

Mr. Ball. You have handed me a picture now that I will have marked as "Exhibit C" and it is your No. 22.

(Instrument marked by the reporter as "Studebaker Exhibit C," for identification.)

Mr. Ball. That is a picture taken by you of the location of the gun—that was before anyone moved it?

Mr. Studebaker. Yes.

Mr. Ball. Do you have another shot of that other picture?

Mr. Studebaker. No, we took two from the same location when we was up on top of the stack of boxes shooting down at it, before they picked it up. Actually, there was four negatives of them of the gun, but they are all in the same location, shooting straight down and they were taken on different exposures.

Mr. Ball. You took some other pictures, didn't you?

Mr. Studebaker. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Did you take a picture of the window in the southeast corner?

Mr. Studebaker. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Were there any boxes on the ledge of this window?

Mr. Studebaker. Yes.

Mr. Ball. Did you take some pictures showing those boxes?

Mr. Studebaker. Yes.

Mr. Ball. Was that before any of them were moved?

Mr. Studebaker. That picture right there is the one that shows them, and the other pictures show them before they were moved.

Mr. Ball. You mean Exhibit A and B?

Mr. Studebaker. A and B.

Mr. Ball. Do you have a picture that shows the boxes themselves, just a shot of those boxes in the window?

Mr. Studebaker. This one, Exhibit A, shows that—this is the exact—now, this print here isn't too good, but you can see the indentation in this box right here. This is before it was ever moved, and right down below here, you can see a staple on another box or another negative, this isn't too good a negative here. If I had known what you wanted, I would have brought you a better print—picked out a better print.

Mr. Ball. Now, you say on Exhibit A it shows a box in the window?

Mr. Studebaker. These boxes [indicating], yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Is that the way they were piled up?

Mr. Studebaker. Yes, just exactly like that.

Mr. Ball. And you say there is an indentation on that box?

Mr. Studebaker. Right here.

Mr. Ball. That shows in the picture.

Mr. Studebaker. Yes.

Mr. Ball. Will you take this pen and sort of surround that and make it look a little heavier?

Mr. Studebaker. (Marked exhibit as requested by Counsel Ball.)

Mr. Ball. There was an indentation in the box, was there?

Mr. Studebaker. Yes, and you can tell on these boxes. We checked them all over and this box is a Second Rolling Readers—that was carried from the fourth aisle over here to over here (indicating) and there is another box that was taken off of this stack—this stack right here.

141 Mr. Ball. Is it shown in the picture?

Mr. Studebaker. It will show on another negative.

Mr. Ball. You see, somebody reading this can't tell what you mean by "another box taken from this stack here."

Mr. Studebaker. Well, there is a box right under this.

Mr. Ball. Right under what?

Mr. Studebaker. Right under this box.

Mr. Ball. You mean the box that's shown in the window ledge, you mean the little Rolling Readers?

Mr. Studebaker. There are two boxes stacked up here—here's one, and here's one.

Mr. Ball. Were they both Rolling Readers?

Mr. Studebaker. Yes; two small boxes, and then a large box with these books was underneath.

Mr. Ball. It's marked "books"?

Mr. Studebaker. It's marked "books" and it was underneath this box.

Mr. Ball. Now, the box marked "books" was underneath the box marked "Rolling Readers"?

Mr. Studebaker. Yes; Second Rolling Readers.

Mr. Ball. Now, there were two Rolling Readers boxes, weren't there?

Mr. Studebaker. Yes.

Mr. Ball. Where were they taken from?

Mr. Studebaker. They were taken from the fourth aisle and put there.

Mr. Ball. Where were they stacked in the window?

Mr. Studebaker. Well, this shows as much as you can before anything was moved, and at that time, we went over to this other place——

Mr. Ball. Did you take this picture?

Mr. Studebaker. Yes, sir; that was after the boxes were dusted.

Mr. Ball. That's after they were moved?

Mr. Studebaker. Yes, sir; that's when we was trying to get some prints right there.

Mr. Ball. Do you have any pictures of the boxes before they were moved other than those you have showed me?

Mr. Studebaker. Just these two.

Mr. Ball. Just the two that show the cartons, and those are Exhibits A and B?

Mr. Studebaker. We have probably got one down there I can get you that is a lot better print than that. If you want a better print, I can get it for you.

Mr. Ball. Then, you don't have any pictures taken of the boxes before they were moved?

Mr. Studebaker. No.

Mr. Ball. Now, I will show you another picture which we will mark as "Exhibit D," was that taken by you?

Mr. Studebaker. Yes.

(Instrument marked by the reporter as "Studebaker Exhibit D," for identification.)

Mr. Ball. Does that show the position of the boxes before or after they were moved?

Mr. Studebaker. That's after they were dusted—there's fingerprint dust on every box.

Mr. Ball. And they were not in that position then when you first saw them?

Mr. Studebaker. No.

Mr. Ball. Now, take a look at it and tell me where were they with reference to the left window sill, were there boxes over close to the left window sill or in the center, or close to the right of the window sill?

Mr. Studebaker. Where is your other picture—and I will show you? See this box right here—this box?

Mr. Ball. We are referring now to the box shown in Exhibit B.

Mr. Studebaker. That's one of these Rolling Readers there in Exhibit B, you can read it right here—it's upside down. It says, "Second Rolling Readers."

Mr. Ball. That says 10.

Mr. Studebaker. No; it says Second; that's that little Rolling Reader—it says "Second Rolling Readers". They don't go by this up there, they go by this142 right here, this little print. Now, this box was turned over on its side and you see the tape right here, the way it is wrapped around—that was laying in the window like this on the top box.

Mr. Ball. "In the window like this," you mean as shown on Exhibit B?

Mr. Studebaker. It is Exhibit B.

Mr. Ball. It was on the window ledge?

Mr. Studebaker. It was on the window ledge, just like it is right there, and then this other box was beside it, and this box was turned up on end.

Mr. Ball. You say "this box turned up on end," you've got to give us a description of "this box"—you mean the box marked "books"?

Mr. Studebaker. The box marked "books"—now, we have—this thing is stapled here some place along this edge and you can see the staples in this other print. You can't see it in this print.

Mr. Ball. What other print?

Mr. Studebaker. When you make a negative, you have to put it on your exposure when you expose the thing, and you see, you lose part of your negative.

Mr. Ball. First, let me get back to what we were talking about first.

Mr. Studebaker. Well, this box was sitting right here—the first box in Exhibit A.

Mr. Ball. Wait just a minute—let me direct your attention to Exhibit B, does it show a box on the window ledge?

Mr. Studebaker. This box—the Second Rolling Readers.

Mr. Ball. That picture was taken before the box was moved?

Mr. Studebaker. Yes.

Mr. Ball. That box shown in the window ledge in Exhibit B was the Rolling Readers box?

Mr. Studebaker. Yes.

Mr. Ball. And underneath that was another box?

Mr. Studebaker. Another Rolling Reader box?

Mr. Ball. And underneath that sitting on the floor was another box?

Mr. Studebaker. A box marked "books".

Mr. Ball. It was larger in size?

Mr. Studebaker. It was larger in size.

Mr. Ball. Than the Rolling Readers box?

Mr. Studebaker. Yes.

Mr. Ball. Now, the one marked "books", how was that standing, was it on its end or on its side?

Mr. Studebaker. It was on its end. You see, these staples right along here, these staples show in another print. They don't show in this print—this is just a bad print.

Mr. Ball. When you say "in this," what is it?

Mr. Studebaker. This is Exhibit—what is it?

Mr. Ball. This is Exhibit A.

Mr. Studebaker. Exhibit A—it was standing on end.

Mr. Ball. Now, in Exhibit A—can you tell me looking at Exhibit A whether or not these boxes were over near the left-hand corner of the sill, to the left of the sill, looking out of the window, at the center, or over at the right.

Mr. Studebaker. They were in the left-hand corner of the window looking towards Elm Street.

Mr. Ball. How close to the edge of the sill?

Mr. Studebaker. Right at the edge.

Mr. Ball. Right at the edge?

Mr. Studebaker. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Now, you show an indentation or a mark on the top of the box shown in Exhibit A, is that a little Rolling Reader box?

Mr. Studebaker. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Now, we have a picture here which we will mark "Exhibit E."

(Instrument marked by the reporter as "Studebaker Exhibit E," for identification.)

Mr. Ball. This is a picture of the fifth and sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository taken by a photographer right after shots were fired at President Kennedy.

143 Can you tell me whether or not the Rolling Readers box you identified in Exhibit A is shown in that picture?

Mr. Studebaker. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Where?

Mr. Studebaker. That's the top corner.

Mr. Ball. Where?

Mr. Studebaker. That's this corner right here.

Mr. Ball. Let's put a circle around that so we can identify that.

Mr. Studebaker. Have you got a ballpoint pen?

(Witness Studebaker marks the instrument referred to as requested by Counsel Ball.)

Mr. Ball. The circle surrounds that box, is that correct?

Mr. Studebaker. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. There is another box shown in Exhibit E here over to the right of the window as you stand looking out of the window.

Mr. Studebaker. It would be these boxes back over in here—it would be the top of those boxes.

Mr. Ball. How far were they away from the window?

Mr. Studebaker. I would have to look at the measurements—I have the measurements down here. This is the box you see right there, in that picture. You see, these boxes were stacked all up on top of each one.

Mr. Ball. You are referring to Exhibit A?

Mr. Studebaker. Exhibit A.

Mr. Ball. And it is the row of boxes?

Mr. Studebaker. Behind this window—that's the top of that box—that's all it is.

Mr. Ball. It is the top of a box that is shown in this picture?

Mr. Studebaker. Yes.

Mr. Ball. And they were set back from the window 2 or 3 feet, were they?

Mr. Studebaker. Yes, they were about 18 inches is all that was.

Mr. Ball. Let's make two circles—one circle around the top of the Rolling Readers and one circle around the top of the other box. So, the people who read this can understand it, make the Rolling Readers circle an "X" circle and mark it out here—mark "X" and the other circle a "Y" circle.

(Witness Studebaker marked the exhibit referred to as requested by Counsel Ball.)

Mr. Ball. Now, the Rolling Readers box, which is shown in the "X" circle on this Exhibit E, where was that with reference to the window sill itself?

Mr. Studebaker. Sitting right on the sill.

Mr. Ball. And the box that is shown in the picture as around the "Y" circle of Exhibit E, that was how far from the window itself?

Mr. Studebaker. Approximately 18 inches from the inside brick of the window.

Mr. Ball. And that little aisleway is shown on Exhibits A and B?

Mr. Studebaker. Yes, on A and B.

Mr. Ball. Now, did you at any time see any paper sack around there?

Mr. Studebaker. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Where?

Mr. Studebaker. Storage room there—in the southeast corner of the building—folded.

Mr. Ball. In the southeast corner of the building?

Mr. Studebaker. It was a paper—I don't know what it was.

Mr. Ball. And it was folded, you say?

Mr. Studebaker. Yes.

Mr. Ball. Where was it with respect to the three boxes of which the top two were Rolling Readers?

Mr. Studebaker. Directly east.

Mr. Ball. There is a corner there, isn't it?

Mr. Studebaker. Yes, sir; in the southeast corner.

Mr. Ball. It was in the southeast corner?

Mr. Studebaker. I drew that box in for somebody over at the FBI that144 said you wanted it. It is in one of those pictures—one of the shots after the duplicate shot.

Mr. Ball. Let's mark this picture "Exhibit F."

(Instrument marked by the reporter as "Studebaker Exhibit F," for identification.)

Mr. Ball. Do you know who took that picture?

Mr. Studebaker. No; I don't.

Mr. Ball. Do you recognize the diagram?

Mr. Studebaker. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Did you draw the diagram?

Mr. Studebaker. I drew a diagram in there for the FBI, somebody from the FBI called me down—I can't think of his name, and he wanted an approximate location of where the paper was found.

Mr. Ball. Does that show the approximate location?

Mr. Studebaker. Yes.

Mr. Ball. Where you have the dotted lines?

Mr. Studebaker. Yes.

Mr. Ball. Now, there is something that looks like steam pipes or water pipes in the corner there?

Mr. Studebaker. Yes.

Mr. Ball. Where was that with reference to those pipes—the paper wrapping?

Mr. Studebaker. Laying right beside it—right here.

Mr. Ball. Was it folded over?

Mr. Studebaker. It was doubled—it was a piece of paper about this long and it was doubled over.

Mr. Ball. How long was it, approximately?

Mr. Studebaker. I don't know—I picked it up and dusted it and they took it down there and sent it to Washington and that's the last I have seen of it, and I don't know.

Mr. Ball. Did you take a picture of it before you picked it up?

Mr. Studebaker. No.

Mr. Ball. Does that sack show in any of the pictures you took?

Mr. Studebaker. No; it doesn't show in any of the pictures.

Mr. Ball. Was it near the window?

Mr. Studebaker. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Which way from the window?

Mr. Studebaker. It was east of the window.

Mr. Ball. Over in the corner?

Mr. Studebaker. Over in the corner—in the southeast corner of the building, in the far southeast corner, as far as you can get is where it was.

Mr. Ball. You say you dusted it?

Mr. Studebaker. With that magnetic powders.

Mr. Ball. Did you lift any prints?

Mr. Studebaker. There wasn't but just smudges on it—is all it was. There was one little ole piece of a print and I'm sure I put a piece of tape on it to preserve it.

Mr. Ball. Well, then, there was a print that you found on it?

Mr. Studebaker. Yes; just a partial print.

Mr. Ball. The print of a finger or palm or what?

Mr. Studebaker. You couldn't tell, it was so small.

Mr. Ball. But you did dust it and lift some print?

Mr. Studebaker. Yes.

Mr. Ball. When you say you taped it, what did you do, cover it with some paper?

Mr. Studebaker. We have—it's like a Magic Mending Tape, only we use it just strictly for fingerprinting.

Mr. Ball. Let's stick with the paper.

Mr. Studebaker. Well, on the paper I put a piece of 1 inch tape over it—I'm sure I did.

Mr. Ball. After you dusted the print, you put a 1 inch tape over it?

Mr. Studebaker. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Now, did you also lift a print off of the box?

145 Mr. Studebaker. Yes.

Mr. Ball. You lifted a print off of a box?

Mr. Studebaker. Yes.

Mr. Ball. Where was the box?

Mr. Studebaker. The box was due north of the paper that was found, and it was, I believe, we have it that it was—I can read the measurements off of one of these things—how far it was.

Mr. Ball. Fine, do that.

Mr. Studebaker. It was 16 inches from the—from this wall over here (indicating).

Mr. Ball. Which wall are you talking about?

Mr. Studebaker. It was from the south wall of the building.

Mr. Ball. Did you take a picture of that box in place before it was moved?

Mr. Studebaker. Yes.

Mr. Ball. The box from which you lifted the prints?

Mr. Studebaker. This box never was moved.

Mr. Ball. That box never was moved?

Mr. Studebaker. That box never was moved.

Mr. Ball. And you took a picture of it?

Mr. Studebaker. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. And that was the location of it when you lifted the print of it?

Mr. Studebaker. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. And may I have that, please, and we will mark it Exhibit G.

Mr. Studebaker. I was with them in the corner all the time—they were with me, rather, I guess Captain Fritz told them to stay with us and help us in case they were needed.

Mr. Ball. Johnson and Montgomery?

Mr. Studebaker. Johnson and Montgomery—they were with me all the time over in that one corner.

Mr. Ball. Now, we have here a picture which we will mark "G."

(Instrument marked by the reporter as "Studebaker Exhibit G," for identification.)

Mr. Ball. This is your No. 26, and that shows the box, does it?

Mr. Studebaker. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. And that was its location with reference to the corner?

Mr. Studebaker. Yes, sir; that's the exact location.

Mr. Ball. Can you draw in there showing us where the paper sack was found?

(Witness Studebaker drew on instrument as requested by Counsel Ball.)

Mr. Ball. That would be directly south?

Mr. Studebaker. That would be directly south of where the box was.

Mr. Ball. You have drawn an outline in ink on the map in the southeast corner. Now, that box is how many inches, as shown in this picture?

Mr. Studebaker. It is 16 inches from the south wall.

Mr. Ball. You say you lifted a print there off of this box?

Mr. Studebaker. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. And now, is that shown in the picture?

Mr. Studebaker. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. What shows in the picture, can you tell me what shows in the picture? Describe what you see there.

Mr. Studebaker. Well, there is a box with a partial print on the—it would be the northwest corner of the box.

Mr. Ball. Was that a palm print or a fingerprint?

Mr. Studebaker. A palm.

Mr. Ball. It was a palm print?

Mr. Studebaker. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. And does it show the direction of the palm?

Mr. Studebaker. Yes.

Mr. Ball. Which way?

Mr. Studebaker. West.

Mr. Ball. It would be made with the hand——

Mr. Studebaker. With the right hand sitting on the box.

Mr. Ball. And the fingers pointed west, is that it?

146 Mr. Studebaker. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Now, you outlined that before you took the picture, did you?

Mr. Studebaker. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. And that is the outline shown in this picture?

Mr. Studebaker. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Now, in Exhibit F, does that also show—did you attempt to show the diagram of the palm in Exhibit F; did you do that?

Mr. Studebaker. No; could I?

Mr. Ball. Did you?

Mr. Studebaker. Did I do this?

Mr. Ball. Yes.

Mr. Studebaker. No.

Mr. Ball. But, does that correspond with your opinion as to the direction of the hand, the position of the hand at the time the palm print was made?

Mr. Studebaker. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. There were no fingers shown in that print, just the palm print?

Mr. Studebaker. No, sir; just the palm print.

Mr. Ball. Now, do you have some more pictures there to show me?

Mr. Studebaker. Well, I've got a bunch of them. I made this diagram of the whole sixth floor of that building. This isn't the original, and J. B. Hicks and I measured this thing and I drew the diagram.

Mr. Ball. Now, did you find a two-wheeled truck up there?

Mr. Studebaker. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. And did you take a picture of it?

Mr. Studebaker. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Let me see that one.

Mr. Studebaker. All right—it has the Dr. Pepper bottle and the paper sack that was sitting there in the picture.

Mr. Ball. Let me see that one.

Mr. Studebaker. (Handed instrument to Counsel Ball.)

There are two different views of it—there's one and here's one. That was before anything was touched and before it was dusted. This is a shot—I believe that's in the third aisle and let's see what it is marked—it's the sixth floor of 411 Elm Street looking south and the third aisle from Houston Street on the south side of the building. That was taken looking directly into that—this is the sack with those chicken bones and all that mess was in there too.

Mr. Ball. Is the sack shown there?

Mr. Studebaker. Yes; it's a little ole brown sack—yes; it's right there.

Mr. Ball. We will mark this as "Exhibit H," which is your No. 6.

(Instrument marked by the reporter as "Studebaker Exhibit H," for identification.)

Mr. Ball. That's the sack, is that right?

Mr. Studebaker. Yes.

Mr. Ball. And it shows—it has some chicken bones in it?

Mr. Studebaker. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Any chicken bones in any other place?

Mr. Studebaker. No.

Mr. Ball. None outside the sack?

Mr. Studebaker. No; they were all inside the sack, wrapped up and put right back in. It had a little piece of Fritos in the sack, too.

Mr. Ball. Then, we will have the next picture marked Exhibit I, which shows the Dr. Pepper bottle with the two-wheeler, is that right?

Mr. Studebaker. Yes, sir.

(Instrument marked by the reporter as "Studebaker Exhibit I," for identification.)

Mr. Ball. And that's your No. 7.

Mr. Studebaker. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. That's the third row over?

Mr. Studebaker. That's the third aisle from Houston Street.

Mr. Ball. That would be the third set of windows?

Mr. Studebaker. That would be the third set of windows—it would be—one, two, three.

147 Mr. Ball. The third set of windows from Houston Street—you mark it.

Mr. Studebaker. Yes.

(Instrument marked by the witness Studebaker as requested by Counsel Ball.)

Mr. Ball. Now, did you see a chicken bone over near the boxes in the southeast corner, over near where you found the cartridges and the paper sack?

Mr. Studebaker. I don't believe there was one there.

Mr. Ball. You didn't see any. One witness, a deputy sheriff named Luke Looney said he found a piece of chicken partly eaten up on top of one of the boxes; did you see anything like that?

Mr. Studebaker. No.

Mr. Ball. Was anything like that called to your attention?

Mr. Studebaker. I can't recall anything like that. It ought to be in one of these pictures, if it is.

Mr. Ball. You made a map of that sixth floor and identified pictures by numbers, did you not?

Mr. Studebaker. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. You made a measurement of the distance from the window ledge to the sidewalk, didn't you?

Mr. Studebaker. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. How many feet?

Mr. Studebaker. Let me see—61 feet from the window ledge to the sidewalk.

Mr. Ball. Now, this is such a good set of pictures, can we have them?

Mr. Studebaker. You will have to see Chief Curry. He gave orders that no pictures were to be released without his permission. You can call him, if you want to.

Mr. Ball. Well, I already have taken some of them.

Mr. Studebaker. I'm sure he will. We have printed about 10,000 of them—it seems like that and I don't imagine that two or three more would make any difference. This is out of a master set—all of these pictures you have here.

Mr. Ball. The picture of the boxes; this is after they were moved?

Mr. Studebaker. Yes, sir; they were moved there. This is exactly the position they were in.

Mr. Ball. It is?

Mr. Studebaker. Yes—not—this was after they were moved, but I put them back in the same exact position.

Mr. Ball. Were they that close—that was about the position?

Mr. Studebaker. Yes.

Mr. Ball. Let's take one of these pictures and mark it the next number, which will be "Exhibit J."

(Instrument marked by the reporter as "Studebaker Exhibit J," for identification.)

Mr. Ball. After the boxes of Rolling Readers had been moved, you put them back in the same position?

Mr. Studebaker. Yes.

Mr. Ball. And took a picture?

Mr. Studebaker. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. And this is Exhibit J, is it, is that right?

Mr. Studebaker. Exhibit J, yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Now, the box that had the print on it is shown?

Mr. Studebaker. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Let's put a few hieroglyphics on here—a few numbers on here. Let's put the box with the print that was found as 1.

Mr. Studebaker. You want 1 marked on this box?

(Witness Studebaker marked instrument as requested by Counsel Ball.)

Mr. Ball. And the place where the paper sack was found as No. 2 and the box that had the indentation on it, let's mark it No. 3.

Mr. Studebaker. (Marked instruments as requested by Counsel Ball.)

Mr. Ball. And outline the indentation with a circle.

Mr. Studebaker. (Witness executed outline as requested by Counsel Ball.)

Mr. Ball. Was there any other indentation on that box besides that which is shown in the circle on 3?

Mr. Studebaker. No.

148 Mr. Ball. That's the only one?

Mr. Studebaker. Yes, you see, I dusted these first, because I figured he might have stacked them up.

Mr. Ball. Did you find any prints?

Mr. Studebaker. No prints, and then I was standing right there and I told Johnson and Montgomery that there should be a print, and I turned around and figured he might have been standing right in there, and I dusted all these poles here and there wasn't no prints on any of it and started dusting this big box, No. 1 here, and lifted the print off of that box.

Mr. Ball. Did you later examine that print that you lifted off of that box in your crime lab?

Mr. Studebaker. I was up in that building until 1 o'clock that morning and got there at 1 and left at 1 and they had seized all of our evidence and I haven't seen it since.

Lieutenant Day compared the print before it was released to Oswald's print.

Mr. Ball. He did?

Mr. Studebaker. He compared it as Oswald's right palm print.

Mr. Ball. Did you put some masking tape over that bit of cardboard before you moved it?

Mr. Studebaker. As soon as the print was lifted, you see, I taped it and then they took the print down there. They just took the top corner of this box down there.

Mr. Ball. They just took the top part of the box down there?

Mr. Studebaker. Yes, and when we took this picture, we took it back—that stuff has been up there and back until I was so confused I don't know what was going on.

Mr. Ball. You mean, when you took the picture which is marked Exhibit J——

Mr. Studebaker. This picture has the palm print on it.

Mr. Ball. It has the palm print—it had been removed and had been identified and brought back and put in the box?

Mr. Studebaker. It had been brought back and put in the box and as being Oswald's right palm print.

Mr. Ball. So, in Exhibit J, you put the cardboard back on the box?

Mr. Studebaker. On the box, yes, sir; where it was found.

Mr. Ball. Where you had found it? You put the Rolling Readers boxes back where you first saw them?

Mr. Studebaker. Yes.

Mr. Ball. And then you took a picture?

Mr. Studebaker. Yes.

Mr. Ball. So, this Exhibit J, gives us the scene as you saw it?

Mr. Studebaker. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Before the boxes were moved?

Mr. Studebaker. Yes.

Mr. Ball. And before the palm print was identified?

Mr. Studebaker. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Did you find any prints on that sack that had the chicken bones in it?

Mr. Studebaker. No.

Mr. Ball. Did you find any prints on boxes around where that sack was found?

Mr. Studebaker. No, no prints.

Mr. Ball. Or the two-wheeler truck?

Mr. Studebaker. No.

Mr. Ball. No prints?

Mr. Studebaker. No.

Mr. Ball. You dusted around there for them?

Mr. Studebaker. I dusted everything around that area. There was just smears and smudges on the bottom.

Mr. Ball. Did you dust the rifle?

Mr. Studebaker. No, sir; Lieutenant Day handled the rifle part of it. I didn't mess with the rifle at all. He took it down to the city hall and they worked on it down there at the lab.

149 Mr. Ball. Do you have the measurements of the boxes?

Mr. Studebaker. Yes, I have all the measurements.

Mr. Ball. Where?

Mr. Studebaker. Down at the city hall.

Mr. Ball. Let's take Exhibit J—how did the height of the little Rolling Reader box on the window sill compare with the height of the box you have marked "3" that had the indentation on it?

Mr. Studebaker. It was lower, approximately 3 or 4 inches lower than the box marked "Exhibit 3, or No. 3" in the picture.

Mr. Ball. Which box was lower, tell us which box was lower?

Mr. Studebaker. The box on the sill was lower than the box—do you want to mark it "4"—the box in the window?

Mr. Ball. The box in the window, you mark it "4," if you wish.

Mr. Studebaker. (Marked instrument as requested by Counsel Ball.)

Mr. Ball. Now, tell us which box, identifying it by number.

Mr. Studebaker. Box No. 4 in the window was approximately 3 to 4 inches lower than Box No. 3 pictured in the picture of Exhibit J.

Mr. Ball. Now, do you have any questions to ask him on any other subject matters, and if you do go ahead and ask him.

Mr. Stern. Perhaps this is not the witness to establish it, but I think it might be useful to know if he has any opinion as to why the boxes were placed that way?

Mr. Studebaker. A good gun rest.

Mr. Stern. In that arrangement?

Mr. Studebaker. Yes, it was a good gun rest.

Mr. Stern. With the box in front lower than the box behind?

Mr. Studebaker. In other words, it's like this—you see—it would be down on a level like this—it shows where the butt of the gun was up behind him here. He was down like this—nobody could see him from the street. He was behind this window. He didn't shoot this way because everybody would be looking right at him.

Mr. Ball. Now, how big was this paper that you saw—you saw the wrapper—tell me about how big that paper bag was—how long was it?

Mr. Studebaker. It was about, I would say, 3 to 4 feet long.

Mr. Ball. The paper bag?

Mr. Studebaker. Yes.

Mr. Ball. And how wide was it?

Mr. Studebaker. Approximately 8 inches.

Mr. Ball. Mr. Studebaker, this testimony will be written up and it will be submitted to you if you wish, for your signature. You can read it over and sign it, or it is your option that you can waive your signature and we will send it right on up to the Commission.

Which do you prefer?

Mr. Studebaker. Whichever is the easiest for you.

Mr. Ball. It is easier for you if you don't have to read it, of course, but you have a right to read it and sign it, whichever you want to do.

Mr. Studebaker. Well, I will read it and sign it.

Mr. Ball. All right. She will notify you.

Mr. Studebaker. Okay.

Mr. Ball. Thank you very much.

Mr. Studebaker. Yes, sir.


TESTIMONY OF C. N. DHORITY

The testimony of C. N. Dhority was taken at 2:45 p.m., on April 6, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Messrs. Joseph A. Ball, John Hart Ely, and Samuel A. Stern, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Dr. Alfred Goldberg, historian was present.

150 Mr. Ball. My name is Joe Ball. Will you stand up and be sworn?

Do you solemnly swear that the evidence you are about to give before the Commission shall be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. Dhority. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Will you state your name, please?

Mr. Dhority. C. N. Dhority.

Mr. Ball. And what is your occupation?

Mr. Dhority. Detective with the Dallas Police Department.

Mr. Ball. You understand, don't you, that we are inquiring here as to the facts surrounding the assassination of President Kennedy, do you not?

Mr. Dhority. Yes.

Mr. Ball. And you have been requested to come up here and give your testimony?

Mr. Dhority. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. And you are willing to testify to such matters that came to your attention during your investigation of that assassination, are you not?

Mr. Dhority. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Will you tell me something about yourself, where you were born and what your education is, and how long you have been here with the Department?

Mr. Dhority. Well, I was born in Tuscumbia, Ala., in August 1923, and lived there until I was about 10 years old, and have been in Dallas the rest of the time.

I have been on the police department since August 24, 1946.

Mr. Ball. What department do you work with?

Mr. Dhority. I work for Captain Fritz.

Mr. Ball. Homicide?

Mr. Dhority. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. How long have you been in the Homicide Department?

Mr. Dhority. Since 1955.

Mr. Ball. On November 22, 1963, what time did you go to work?

Mr. Dhority. Oh, I believe it was around 2 p.m.

Mr. Ball. Was that the time you usually went to work?

Mr. Dhority. No, I was off that day.

Mr. Ball. Well, how did you happen to go to work that day?

Mr. Dhority. Lt. Wells called me and told me to come to work.

Mr. Ball. And you went to work at the main office of the Police Department?

Mr. Dhority. Yes.

Mr. Ball. You arrived at about 2 p.m.?

Mr. Dhority. Yes.

Mr. Ball. Do you usually work with another detective?

Mr. Dhority. Yes. H. H. Blessing.

Mr. Ball. Was he on duty that day with you?

Mr. Dhority. I don't believe so. He got shot last December and has been in pretty bad shape. He just works sometimes and I don't know whether he was there that day.

Mr. Ball. Did you work with anybody that day, November 22, after you came to work?

Mr. Dhority. I worked part of the day with C. W. Brown; he's a patrolman temporarily assigned to that bureau.

Mr. Ball. What is the first thing you did that day after you came to work?

Mr. Dhority. I started answering telephones, I believe; they were all ringing.

Mr. Ball. And did you later see Lee Oswald?

Mr. Dhority. Yes.

Mr. Ball. About what time was the first time you saw him?

Mr. Dhority. I don't recall exactly what time it was—he was in Captain Fritz' office.

Mr. Ball. On November 22, did you ever sit in on the questioning, sit in a group where Oswald was questioned?

Mr. Dhority. No, sir.

Mr. Ball. What was the first thing that you did that day with respect to the investigation of the President's assassination?

151 Mr. Dhority. Around 6 p.m., Detective Brown and myself went out and got Mr. McWatters from the bus in front of the city hall there and brought him into the lineup and took an affidavit off of him.

Mr. Ball. You were with Mr. McWatters, were you, in the lineup during the showup?

Mr. Dhority. Yeah.

Mr. Ball. That was about what time?

Mr. Dhority. About 6:30. I don't recall.

Mr. Ball. You two men were with him?

Mr. Dhority. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. There was some other people there also at that time, weren't there; some other witnesses?

Mr. Dhority. Quite a few down there as well as I recall, in the showup room.

Mr. Ball. At the showup room?

Mr. Dhority. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Did you talk to any of them?

Mr. Dhority. No, sir.

Mr. Ball. Did you talk to a man named W. W. Whaley at that time?

Mr. Dhority. Whaley, that's a cabdriver?

Mr. Ball. The cabdriver.

Mr. Dhority. I don't believe that was that night—I was thinking that was the next day.

Mr. Ball. Well, did you at some time talk to Whaley?

Mr. Dhority. Well, briefly, I took him back down to the cab company down there.

Mr. Ball. Did you talk to a fellow at this showup at 6:30, did you talk to anybody named Sam Guinyard? Or Ted Callaway?

Mr. Dhority. I don't recall the names.

Mr. Ball. But at this showup at 6:30 you and Brown were with McWatters, were you not?

Mr. Dhority. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Was there a Leavelle there, J. R. Leavelle—a detective?

Mr. Dhority. I don't recall—he could have been—there was quite a few officers there.

Mr. Ball. Do you remember what occurred at the showup?

Mr. Dhority. Yes, sir; he identified Oswald as the No. 2 man in the four-man lineup.

Mr. Ball. Were any questions asked of the men in the lineup?

Mr. Dhority. I don't recall—I wasn't holding the showup. I was just with him and viewing the lineup. I believe that someone up there did that.

Mr. Ball. What did McWatters say to you?

Mr. Dhority. He identified him as the man that rode on the bus and said he wasn't for sure exactly where he picked him up, but he said he believed that he got off shortly after he got on the bus, but after he identified him he went upstairs and looked at a transfer that Detective Sims had took out of Oswald's pocket, and he positively identified the transfer as his transfer.

Mr. Ball. You took McWatters' affidavit after that, didn't you?

Mr. Dhority. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Right after he had made an identification?

Mr. Dhority. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Of Oswald?

Mr. Dhority. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. At that time, and I'll show you a copy of an affidavit by McWatters, and will you take a look at that, please?

Mr. Dhority. [Examined instrument referred to.]

Mr. Ball. Mr. Dhority, after the showup, did you take the affidavit from Mr. McWatters?

Mr. Dhority. Yes, I did.

Mr. Ball. Now, in the affidavit here he says he picked up a man on the lower end of town on Elm and Houston and went out on Marsalis and picked up a woman, and then he mentions that as he went out, "This man was152 grinning and never did say anything. The woman said that it was not a grinning matter. I don't remember where I let this man off. This man looks like the No. 2 man I saw in a lineup tonight."

Now, you read that, didn't you?

Mr. Dhority. Yes.

Mr. Ball. Now, you say he identified Oswald, he identified him as a man that he had seen before doing what—did he tell you?

Mr. Dhority. No, I just asked him if he saw the man there that he picked up, and he said it was the No. 2 man.

I don't know whether you've talked to him or not.

Mr. Ball. Yes, I have.

Mr. Dhority. But to me, he is the type of person that the longer you talk to him—he just goes and he will try, to me, he will try to say, "Well, I'm sure it was," but then he would go on with something else.

Mr. Ball. Well, what I want to know is this—he identified Oswald, but did he tell you where he had seen Oswald before and what Oswald had done?

Mr. Dhority. Well, just like that affidavit there, he says he thought he picked him up down there close to the Book Depository on Elm.

Mr. Ball. Did he tell you that? As he went out on Marsalis that some man on the bus had grinned at a woman when the woman mentioned that the President had been shot?

Mr. Dhority. I don't know exactly for word to word—it's in the affidavit there.

Mr. Ball. This is the story he told you that's in the affidavit; is that right?

Mr. Dhority. Yes, sir; after he gave me the affidavit and we were walking back across the street to the bus, he said. "Well, I think he went out on Marsalis with me." He said, "He could have got off sooner."

Mr. Ball. Well, I want to read this affidavit into the record. It says:

"The State of Texas, County of Dallas

"Before me, Patsy Collins, a Notary Public in and for said County, State of Texas, on this day personally appeared Cecil J. McWatters, 2523 Blyth, DA 1-2999, Dallas, Texas, Business Address: Dallas Transit Company.

"Who, after being by me duly sworn on oath deposes and says: Today, November 22, 1963, about 12:40 p.m. I was driving Marsalis Bus No. 1213. I picked up a man on the lower end of town on Elm around Houston. I went on out Marsalis and picked up a woman. I asked her if she knew the President had been shot and she thought I was kidding. I told her if she did not believe me to ask the man behind her that he had told me the President was shot in the temple. This man was grinning and never did say anything. The woman said that it was not a grinning matter. I don't remember where I let this man off. This man looks like the #2 man I saw in a lineup tonight. The transfer #004459 is a transfer from my bus with my punch mark."

Is that about what McWatters told you?

Mr. Dhority. That's what he told me when I was taking the affidavit from him. Like I say, when I was walking back across the street with him to the bus he said he wasn't for sure that he did ride down on Marsalis.

Mr. Ball. Now, on this same night, did you show him this transfer No. 004459?

Mr. Dhority. Yes.

Mr. Ball. Issued by the Dallas Transit Co?

Mr. Dhority. Yes.

Mr. Ball. And what did he tell you about that?

Mr. Dhority. He said it was definitely a transfer that he issued and showed me his punch that he carried and he matched the punch on the transfer.

Mr. Ball. Now, did Captain Fritz give you some rifle shells to deliver to somebody?

Mr. Dhority. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. About what time of the night or day was that?

Mr. Dhority. I don't recall when it was, but, from his office there I took them up to the crime lab.

Mr. Ball. Were there three spent 6.5 rifle shells, is that right?

Mr. Dhority. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Did you return any shells to Captain Fritz?

153 Mr. Dhority. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. All of them or one of them?

Mr. Dhority. No; he told me to bring him one back.

Mr. Ball. You brought one back in an envelope?

Mr. Dhority. Yes.

Mr. Ball. And Lieutenant Day kept two; is that right?

Mr. Dhority. That's right.

Mr. Ball. Were you present when paraffin casts were made of Oswald's hands and his face?

Mr. Dhority. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Who made them?

Mr. Dhority. I believe that was Pete Barnes and Johnny Hicks, as well as I remember.

Mr. Ball. Did you attend another showup?

Mr. Dhority. Yes.

Mr. Ball. When was that?

Mr. Dhority. That was about, oh, approximately an hour later after the McWatters showup and there was a Mrs. Davis there.

Mr. Ball. That was the same day?

Mr. Dhority. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Tell me, did somebody send you out to her house?

Mr. Dhority. Yes; Lieutenant Wells sent me out there.

Mr. Ball. What was her first name?

Mr. Dhority. Well, there were two of them—I don't recall for sure—as well as I remember—it was Mrs. Jeanette Davis.

Mr. Ball. There were two girls—Virginia and Jeanette?

Mr. Dhority. Virginia and Jeanette Davis, and I took the affidavit from Virginia, as well as I recall it.

Mr. Ball. You went from the police department out to the Oak Cliff region someplace, didn't you?

Mr. Dhority. Yes.

Mr. Ball. Where?

Mr. Dhority. 400 East 10th.

Mr. Ball. Who sent you out there?

Mr. Dhority. Lieutenant Wells.

Mr. Ball. Who went with you?

Mr. Dhority. C. W. Brown.

Mr. Ball. And what address did you go to?

Mr. Dhority. 400 East 10th.

Mr. Ball. Who did you see there?

Mr. Dhority. Well, there were quite a few people in the house there, but we were told to contact Virginia Davis and her sister, Jeanette Davis.

Mr. Ball. And, did you talk to them?

Mr. Dhority. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Did they give you anything?

Mr. Dhority. Virginia gave me a .38 hull.

Mr. Ball. Did she tell you where she got it?

Mr. Dhority. I believe that she said that she found it in her front yard, as well as I remember.

Mr. Ball. What did you do after that?

Mr. Dhority. We carried them down to the police department and took affidavits off of them and they went to the lineup.

Mr. Dhority. They identified Oswald as the No. 2 man in the lineup.

Mr. Dhority. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. With them?

Mr. Dhority. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. That was about what time of the night?

Mr. Dhority. The lineup—I imagine was about 7:30.

Mr. Ball. 7:30 at night. And who was in the lineup?

Mr. Dhority. They identified Oswald as the No. 2 man in the lineup.

Mr. Ball. Who else was in the lineup?

Mr. Dhority. I don't know.

154 Mr. Ball. You didn't have that?

Mr. Dhority. No; I didn't hold the lineup.

Mr. Ball. What do you call that lineup, is that the number showup in your report?

Mr. Dhority. I don't have a report showing any numbers.

Mr. Ball. Were you with Virginia and Jeanette Davis, standing with them?

Mr. Dhority. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. And that was about what time of night, you said, 7:30?

Mr. Dhority. Yes.

Mr. Ball. Your records show that on November 22, 1963, there was a showup at 7:55 p.m.

Mr. Dhority. Well, I don't recall exactly what time it was.

Mr. Ball. Anyway, tell me how that showup was conducted, what did you say to these people?

Mr. Dhority. Well, I was there with them and there at the time of the showup, and they both were——

Mr. Ball. I know—but how was it conducted—did somebody ask questions?

Mr. Dhority. Well, as I recall, somebody was holding the showup and there was other people there at the same time looking at them.

Mr. Ball. Did somebody ask questions of the men in the showup?

Mr. Dhority. I think they did.

Mr. Ball. Did you?

Mr. Dhority. No, sir.

Mr. Ball. Did you show these two Davis girls a picture of anybody before they went in there, did you ever show them Oswald's picture?

Mr. Dhority. No; I didn't; no, sir.

Mr. Ball. What did you tell them at the house, what did you tell them before you brought them down?

Mr. Dhority. I just told them I wanted to take an affidavit off of them and to take them down to a showup.

Mr. Ball. Down to a showup?

Mr. Dhority. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. When you were in the showup, did you say anything to them?

Mr. Dhority. Did I say anything to them?

Mr. Ball. During the showup, did you say anything to the two girls?

Mr. Dhority. I don't recall saying anything to them at all.

Mr. Ball. What did they tell you?

Mr. Dhority. They said that the No. 2 man looked like the man, as well as I remember.

Mr. Ball. "Looked like the man"—looked like the man what?

Mr. Dhority. I believe she said that run across her yard, as well as I remember. It's in the affidavit.

Mr. Ball. Who took the affidavit?

Mr. Dhority. I took the one from Virginia, I believe.

Mr. Ball. And who took the one from Jeanette?

Mr. Dhority. I believe Brown took that one.

Mr. Ball. Now, what did you do with the empty hull that was given to you, that Virginia gave you?

Mr. Dhority. I gave it to Lieutenant Day in the crime lab.

Mr. Ball. Do you know whether or not Virginia or Jeanette Davis found an empty shell—did she tell you she found an empty shell—Jeanette Davis?

Mr. Dhority. I don't recall—it seems like she told me she had found one earlier and gave it to the police out there, as well as I remember.

Mr. Ball. Gave it to the police that day?

Mr. Dhority. Yes; I believe so.

Mr. Ball. I have here an affidavit signed "Mrs. Virginia Davis," is that a copy of the affidavit that you took from Virginia that day?

Mr. Dhority. [Reads instrument referred to.] Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. I would like to have this and the preceding affidavits marked as Exhibits Nos.—Mr. McWatters' will be Dhority "Exhibit No. A," and Mrs. Davis' affidavit will be "Exhibit No. B," of Mr. Dhority's deposition.

155 (Instruments referred to marked by the reporter as Dhority "Exhibits Nos. A and B," for identification.)

Mr. Ball. Did you do anything more that day, Friday the 22d? You told us you watched the preparation of the paraffin casts.

Mr. Dhority. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Is there anything more you did that day?

Mr. Dhority. I don't recall anything particularly. I did quite a bit of telephone answering of the telephone there at the city hall—there was so much going on at the city hall, I can't recall everything.

Mr. Ball. Now, on the next day, November 23, you took part in a showup, didn't you?

Mr. Dhority. I didn't take part in the one on the cabdriver there.

Mr. Ball. Were you present?

Mr. Dhority. I was present—what it was—they wanted me to take the cabdriver's—me and Brown, to take the cabdriver back down to the station, and I believe we walked into the showup room while there was a showup—the showup had just started or was going on and we walked in there and Mr. Alexander from the district attorney's office was also there.

Mr. Ball. Did you talk to Whaley?

Mr. Dhority. No; I did not.

Mr. Ball. Was there a cab driver there named Scoggins [spelling] S-c-o-g-g-i-n-s also?

Mr. Dhority. I believe there was—there was two cabdrivers there and I know Mr. Alexander, down at the district attorney's office, told us they identified him.

Mr. Ball. Did Whaley ever tell you he identified him?

Mr. Dhority. No, sir.

Mr. Ball. Did you take an affidavit from Whaley?

Mr. Dhority. No, sir.

Mr. Ball. Now, were you present at some time on the 24th when Oswald was in Captain Fritz' office?

Mr. Dhority. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. That would be Sunday, November 24.

Mr. Dhority. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Tell us about what you did that day, on the 24th of November.

Mr. Dhority. Well, on—I went up to jail along with Leavelle and Graves and got him and brought him down to Captain Fritz' office that morning.

Mr. Ball. Who was present in Captain Fritz' office that day?

Mr. Dhority. Well, Captain Fritz and Mr. Kelley and Mr. Sorrels.

Mr. Ball. Mr. Sorrels of the Secret Service?

Mr. Dhority. And Mr. Holmes.

Mr. Ball. And Holmes is what?

Mr. Dhority. Of the Post Office Department.

Mr. Ball. What time did you bring him into Fritz' office?

Mr. Dhority. About 9:30 in the morning.

Mr. Ball. What time did you leave there?

Mr. Dhority. Oh, I imagine it was shortly after 11 o'clock when Captain Fritz gave me the keys to his car and told me to go get it down there in front of the jail office to move Oswald down to the County in.

Mr. Ball. What was said there in Fritz' office that day—do you remember any of the conversations?

Mr. Dhority. There was a lot of conversation.

Mr. Ball. What did they talk about—the people in there?

Mr. Dhority. Well, they were talking to Oswald and Mr. Kelley talked to him and Mr. Sorrels talked to him—I don't think Mr. Holmes talked to him too much. I think he recorded most of the interviews, as well as I remember.

Mr. Ball. Do you remember what was said?

Mr. Dhority. I couldn't remember all that was said.

Mr. Ball. Did you make any notes?

Mr. Dhority. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. Ball. Was your deposition taken before?

Mr. Dhority. Yes, sir.

156 Mr. Ball. By Mr. Hubert?

Mr. Dhority. I don't know—it was some FBI man, as well as I remember.

Mr. Ball. But you weren't sworn under oath, just your statement?

Mr. Dhority. Yes; I wasn't sworn under oath—no, sir.

Mr. Ball. After they questioned Oswald, what did you do?

Mr. Dhority. Well, I believe we gave him a sweater to put on. I think it was kind of cool—one of his sweaters.

Mr. Ball. Was he handcuffed?

Mr. Dhority. Yes; Leavelle handcuffed himself to Oswald just before I left the office.

Mr. Ball. Had he been handcuffed during the questioning in Fritz' office that morning?

Mr. Dhority. I don't recall—I didn't have my handcuffs on him.

Mr. Ball. Just before you left the office, Leavelle handcuffed him—did he put one cuff on Oswald and one on Leavelle; is that it?

Mr. Dhority. Yes.

Mr. Ball. Fritz gave you instructions to do what?

Mr. Dhority. He gave me the keys to his car and told me to go down and get his car and back it up front of the jail door to put Oswald in.

Mr. Ball. Is that what you did?

Mr. Dhority. I went downstairs and got his car, unlocked his car, and was in the process of backing it up there—in fact—I was just about ready to stop, when Captain Fritz came out and Leavelle and Oswald and Graves and Johnson and Montgomery came out the jail door.

Captain Fritz reached over to the door of the car and I was turned around to see—backing it up—still had the car moving it along and I saw someone run across the end of the car real rapid like. At first, I thought it was somebody going to take a picture and then I saw a hand come out and I heard the shot.

Mr. Ball. Graves and Leavelle were there beside Oswald, were they?

Mr. Dhority. Yes; beside Oswald.

Mr. Ball. Oswald was between Graves and Leavelle?

Mr. Dhority. That's right.

Mr. Ball. Any questions?

Mr. Ely. Yes, I have one or two.

I would like to go back if I can to these lineups. You say you were present at three of them and I have taken one by one—the first one was at 6:36 p.m. on Friday, the one where Mr. McWatters identified Oswald. Did you at that time observe the men who were lined up with Oswald?

Mr. Dhority. No; I didn't pay any attention to them, really.

Mr. Ely. Do you have any recollection of how their size and appearance compared with Oswald?

Mr. Dhority. No; I didn't study it.

Mr. Ely. And you don't remember what they were wearing either?

Mr. Dhority. I sure don't.

Mr. Ely. Do you remember anything unusual about Oswald's behavior at that lineup, did he make a lot of noise, or did he behave just like at the other three, as far as you can remember?

Mr. Dhority. I don't recall.

Mr. Ely. Now, do you remember how Mr. McWatters indicated his choice, in other words, did he do it in such a way that the other people present could hear who he was choosing?

Mr. Dhority. No; he did not—it was very low.

Mr. Ely. He said it to you, but he said it quietly so that they couldn't hear?

Mr. Dhority. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ely. What about the other two people, did they indicate their choices out loud, or did they also indicate them quietly?

Mr. Dhority. It was also quietly.

Mr. Ely. In other words, none of the men could hear what the other two were saying?

Mr. Dhority. No.

Mr. Ely. Now, the lineup where Jeannette Davis made the identification, did157 you observe anything about the appearance or clothing of the other men in that lineup?

Mr. Dhority. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. Ely. Do you remember how Jeanette and Virginia Davis indicated their choices to you?

Mr. Dhority. Just standing there by them—very quietly told me.

Mr. Ely. In more or less the same procedure as the other one?

Mr. Dhority. Yes.

Mr. Ely. Did Oswald do anything unusual at that lineup?

Mr. Dhority. I don't recall anything unusual.

Mr. Ely. And the one Saturday morning with Mr. Whaley—I realize you didn't participate in this one, but you were present. Do you not remember anything about that?

Mr. Dhority. I don't recall anything unusual about it at all—I sure don't.

Mr. Ely. Do you remember whether at that one Oswald was yelling about something?

Mr. Dhority. It seems like that at that one he shook his hands up and made some comment about being handcuffed. Of course, they were all handcuffed—it was something like that—I can't recall for sure, but as far as any outburst or anything like that, I don't recall anything like that.

Mr. Ely. Now, your report states that you were present in Captain Fritz' office Friday evening when the paraffin casts were made. Could you estimate from what time to what time you were in Fritz' office on Friday evening?

Mr. Dhority. I sure don't have any idea.

Mr. Ely. Do you know about how long you were there?

Mr. Dhority. I sure don't.

Mr. Ely. Was it just while they were having the paraffin tests?

Mr. Dhority. Yes.

Mr. Ely. Were you there for any of the interrogation of Friday evening?

Mr. Dhority. No.

Mr. Ely. None at all?

Mr. Dhority. No.

Mr. Ely. Is it correct that you were at the police station until 2 a.m. on Saturday morning, is that what time you went home?

Mr. Dhority. That sounds about right.

Mr. Ely. Do you know what time Oswald was checked into the jail on Friday night?

Mr. Dhority. I sure don't.

Mr. Ely. You had nothing to do with it, taking him up there?

Mr. Dhority. No.

Mr. Ely. How would you characterize Oswald's behavior on Sunday morning when you were present in Fritz' office? Was he at that time—did he seem calm or excited?

Mr. Dhority. Very calm.

Mr. Ely. Did he seem fatigued to you, or did he seem to be about the same?

Mr. Dhority. He was very calm and fresh.

Mr. Ely. Just one more thing I would like to cover and that is the conditions in the police station surrounding Fritz' office, I mean, special with regard to newspapermen being present—were the corridors filled with newspapermen—do you recall how much of a crowd was there?

Mr. Dhority. When?

Mr. Ely. Well, let's say when you were there on Friday evening.

Mr. Dhority. They were so thick you couldn't walk through them. You had to shove your way through them to get in and out of the office. There wasn't any in the office at all, but from the elevator to the office, cameras and lights were set up so thick you just had to work your way through.

Mr. Ely. All right, Mr. Ball, I don't believe I have anything else.

Mr. Ball. Mr. Dhority, this will be written up.

Mr. Dhority. The only other thing that I had to do with that that we didn't go into—now, I rode in the ambulance with Oswald to the hospital.

Mr. Ball. Did he say anything?

Mr. Dhority. Well, I held his pulse all the way out there. It was very, very158 weak all the way and as we was turning into the hospital, the only time he showed any signs of life and he started a muscle reaction then——

Mr. Ball. He was unconscious, was he?

Mr. Dhority. He was unconscious all the time, and when he went into the operating room, Detective Graves went in with him there and Captain Fritz left and told me to arrange for the security of Oswald in the hospital, and I was talking to Mr. Price, who is the administrator of the hospital, and we were looking over a wing, when we got word that he was dead, so I went back then and contacted Captain Fritz by 'phone and then got Oswald's clothing and had Oswald's mother and wife look at Oswald's body and then carried him to the morgue where I got Dr. Rose to photograph him with color pictures before he did the autopsy.

Mr. Ball. Now, this will all be written up and it will be submitted to you if you wish, and you can read it over and correct it and sign it if you want to, or you have the option to waive your signature, and in which event this young lady will write it up and send it on to the Commission.

Mr. Dhority. Well, I will just waive my signature.

Mr. Ball. All right. Fine. Thank you very much.


TESTIMONY OF RICHARD M. SIMS

The testimony of Richard M. Sims was taken at 10:20 a.m., on April 6, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Messrs. Joseph A. Ball, John Hart Ely, and Samuel A. Stern, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Dr. Alfred Goldberg, historian, was present.

Mr. Ball. Will you stand up and be sworn?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you will give before the Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. Sims. I do.

Mr. Ball. Will you state your name, please?

Mr. Sims. Richard M. Sims.

Mr. Ball. And what is your business or occupation?

Mr. Sims. Police department, city of Dallas.

Mr. Ball. And what is your position with the police department?

Mr. Sims. Detective in the homicide and robbery bureau since August 2, 1948.

Mr. Ball. Will you tell me something about yourself, where you were born and educated and what you have done before you went with the police department?

Mr. Sims. I was born and raised here in Dallas and I went to school—grade school in Dallas, but moved out to a little city called Hutchins, south of Dallas, and finished my education out there, and joined the Navy when I was 17, and was discharged when I was 21, and I came to work down here when I was 23.

Mr. Ball. With the police department?

Mr. Sims. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. And you have been with them ever since?

Mr. Sims. Yes.

Mr. Ball. And you have been with homicide how long?

Mr. Sims. Since September 1957.

Mr. Ball. On November 22, 1963, what were your hours of duty?

Mr. Sims. Well, actually, my hours of duty were from 4 to midnight, but because the President was going to be in Dallas, I came to work early because we was assigned with Captain Fritz to be down at the Trade Mart when the President arrived.

Mr. Ball. What time did you go to the Trade Mart?

Mr. Sims. It was around 10 o'clock, I believe.

Mr. Ball. In the morning?

Mr. Sims. Yes, sir; 10 a.m.—Captain Fritz and Boyd and I.

159 Mr. Ball. Where were you when you heard the President had been shot?

Mr. Sims. We were at the President's table. Chief Stevenson called Captain Fritz over and told him the President had been involved in an accident.

Mr. Ball. That was about what time of day?

Mr. Sims. That was about 12:40, I believe, sir.

Mr. Ball. What did you do then?

Mr. Sims. Chief Stevenson told us to go to the hospital. Parkland Hospital, so we did.

Mr. Ball. Whom did you go with?

Mr. Sims. Captain Fritz and Boyd and I, and I drove.

Mr. Ball. Captain Fritz is the head of homicide squadron, isn't he?

Mr. Sims. Yes.

Mr. Ball. And Boyd is your partner?

Mr. Sims. Yes; Boyd is my partner since 1957.

Mr. Ball. And what did you do over there when you got to Parkland?

Mr. Sims. Well, we arrived at Parkland and we saw that Chief Curry was there in front of the hospital, so he directed us back to the Depository Store, down to the Book Store.

Mr. Ball. Tell me this—what did he say—what did he tell you to do?

Mr. Sims. I don't remember the exact words, but he told us to go back to the store at the triple underpass—I don't remember what it was—I couldn't say for sure.

Mr. Ball. Did anybody tell you at that time that there had been anyone in the Texas Depository Book Building that had done the shooting?

Mr. Sims. No, sir; I think at that time it was strictly speculation from where the shot had been fired.

Mr. Ball. He just told you to go back to the scene of the shooting?

Mr. Sims. Yes—as I said, I couldn't say for sure.

Mr. Ball. Did you go back there—back to Elm and Houston?

Mr. Sims. Yes, sir; we went directly to the Book Store and Sheriff Bill Decker rode back with us.

Mr. Ball. And you went right to the building?

Mr. Sims. Yes, sir; and pulled up in front of it there—in front of the building.

Mr. Ball. On the way back, did you hear anything over the radio?

Mr. Sims. Yes, sir; we heard them mention the Book Store.

Mr. Ball. What did they say—what did you hear?

Mr. Sims. Well, now, I don't know.

Mr. Ball. You heard something about it?

Mr. Sims. Yes, sir; we went there for some reason—I know that.

Mr. Ball. Was it something you heard over the radio that directed you to go there?

Mr. Sims. We went directly to the store and parked there in front.

Mr. Ball. What did you do after that?

Mr. Sims. Well, we took our rifles out of the car and shotgun, and proceeded to the building, went in the building.

Mr. Ball. What door of the building did you go in?

Mr. Sims. The front door.

Mr. Ball. Who was with you?

Mr. Sims. Captain Fritz and Boyd and I.

Mr. Ball. Could you tell me about what time you got to the building?

Mr. Sims. Yes, sir; I got it here—about 12:58—about 1 o'clock.

Mr. Ball. The radio log of that day at 12:36 shows that the following was broadcast from the police radio log: "The witness says shots came from the fifth floor of the Texas Book Depository Store at Houston and Elm. I have him with me now and we are sealing off the building."

Do you think you heard that?

Mr. Sims. No, sir; I wouldn't have heard that. We didn't hear about the shooting until 12:40, but we had to have heard something or we wouldn't have went directly to the Book Store like we did.

Mr. Ball. At 12:45, there was a broadcast that stated: "All the information we have received indicates it did come from the fifth floor of that building."

"Which building?"

160 "The Texas Depository Building at Elm and Houston."

Do you know whether you could have heard that?

Mr. Sims. Well, our radio was on—I could have heard, that; yes, sir. We got to the hospital, I guess, about that time and we did have our radio on.

Mr. Ball. When you went in the front door, who was with you?

Mr. Sims. Captain Fritz, Boyd, and I.

Mr. Ball. Where did you go?

Mr. Sims. We went directly to the elevator.

Mr. Ball. Which elevator?

Mr. Sims. The main passenger elevator.

Mr. Ball. It was a freight elevator, wasn't it?

Mr. Sims. No, sir; I think the passenger elevator goes to about the third floor and then the freight elevator takes over.

Mr. Ball. You went up in the passenger elevator in the front of the building?

Mr. Sims. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. And you went as far as it could go, did you?

Mr. Sims. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. What did you do then?

Mr. Sims. Then, we caught the freight elevator.

Mr. Ball. That would be in another part of the building?

Mr. Sims. Yes; I think it's on the north end of the building.

Mr. Ball. Did somebody direct you where to go to get the freight elevator?

Mr. Sims. I believe—I'm not positive whether they did or not.

Mr. Ball. And where did you go from there?

Mr. Sims. Well, we got off on the third floor and there were officers there, so we went all the way up and we started to the seventh floor, actually, and there was officers on every floor as we went up.

Mr. Ball. And where did you go first?

Mr. Sims. Well, we stopped at the second floor, first.

Mr. Ball. Now, were you on the elevator at that time?

Mr. Sims. No, sir—it was full of officers.

Mr. Ball. Do you know who some of the officers were?

Mr. Sims. Yes; I don't know which ones I can remember, but Lieutenant Revill was there, I believe.

Mr. Ball. At 2:35, you mentioned two officers.

Mr. Sims. Lieutenant Revill and Detective Westphal was over there with us.

Mr. Ball. Are they with homicide?

Mr. Sims. No, sir; they are with the special service bureau.

Mr. Ball. What is the special service bureau?

Mr. Sims. Well, it's a combination of vice, narcotics, and undercover work.

Mr. Ball. Now, you got, you said, up to the third floor?

Mr. Sims. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. And where did you go then?

Mr. Sims. Well, let's see, we got off—we stopped at the second floor and went to the third floor and some officer there had a key to a room and we made a hurried search of it and there was a bunch of officers on that floor and we went on to the fourth floor, and I don't know if we got off at the fourth or not, but anyway, we got off at the seventh floor—each floor as we passed would have officers on it, and we hadn't been on the seventh floor very long—for just a while—until someone hollered that they had found the hulls on the sixth floor, so we went back to the sixth floor.

Mr. Ball. Someone on the seventh floor told you they had found the hulls?

Mr. Sims. No, sir; someone hollered from the sixth floor that the hulls had been found.

Mr. Ball. And you could hear them?

Mr. Sims. Yes, sir; you could hear them.

Mr. Ball. Did you go down the stairway?

Mr. Sims. No, sir; we went back down the elevator, as well as I remember.

Mr. Ball. And where did you go when you got off of the elevator?

Mr. Sims. We may have had to climb the stairs from six to seven—I don't remember how high that elevator goes. I know we went back to the sixth floor.

Mr. Ball. And where did you go when you got off at the sixth floor?

161 Mr. Sims. We went over to the corner window there.

Mr. Ball. Which corner?

Mr. Sims. It would be the one on Houston and Elm, that corner there—it would be the southeast corner.

Mr. Ball. It was the southeast corner?

Mr. Sims. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. And what did you see?

Mr. Sims. We saw the boxes stacked up about—I don't know—three or four stacks high and found three empty hulls laying there next to the wall of the Elm Street side of the building, the front of the building.

Mr. Ball. Who was there when you saw them?

Mr. Sims. Well, there was two or three officers was there when we got there, and I believe the officer that found them was still there. I have his name here someplace.

Mr. Ball. Was he a deputy sheriff?

Mr. Sims. Yes, he was a deputy sheriff.

Mr. Ball. And who else—Luke Mooney?

Mr. Sims. Yes—there was two or three officers there besides us—I don't know who all.

Mr. Ball. And did Luke tell you whether or not he had moved the hulls or not?

Mr. Sims. He said he had left them like he had found them.

Mr. Ball. Did you take a picture of those hulls?

Mr. Sims. Lieutenant Day did, I believe.

Mr. Ball. Was he there right at the time?

Mr. Sims. No, sir; he didn't get there until a few minutes later.

Mr. Ball. Did you see the picture taken of the hulls?

Mr. Sims. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. You saw Day take the pictures, did you?

Mr. Sims. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. He was the cameraman, was he?

Mr. Sims. Well, there was another one there too. Actually, it was Detective Studebaker that works for him.

Mr. Ball. Studebaker and Day?

Mr. Sims. I believe it was Studebaker.

Mr. Ball. Did they both have cameras?

Mr. Sims. I don't remember if they both had cameras or not.

Mr. Ball. You saw one of them at least take a picture?

Mr. Sims. Yes; I know pictures was being taken.

Mr. Ball. When the picture was taken, were the hulls in the same position as when you had first seen them?

Mr. Sims. Yes, sir; they were.

Mr. Ball. What else did you see that day?

Mr. Sims. Well, someone then hollered—we started a search of the sixth floor then, going from east to west—all the officers, and someone had found the rifle over by the stairway.

Mr. Ball. That would be in what corner of the building?

Mr. Sims. That would be in actually the northwest corner of the building.

Mr. Ball. And what happened then?

Mr. Sims. Then, we went over to where the rifle was found.

Mr. Ball. Did you see the rifle?

Mr. Sims. Yes; I saw the rifle.

Mr. Ball. Where was the rifle?

Mr. Sims. It was laying there near a stairway, partially covered by some paper.

Mr. Ball. Did you see any pictures taken of that? Of the rifle at that location?

Mr. Sims. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. Ball. Who took that picture?

Mr. Sims. Well, it was either Studebaker or Lieutenant Day.

Mr. Ball. Who saw the picture taken—did you?

Mr. Sims. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. And then what did you do?

Mr. Sims. Then we finished there and went—started to go to the city hall.

162 Mr. Ball. You said you finished there, did you see anything of significance there besides these hulls and the rifle?

Mr. Sims. No, sir.

Mr. Ball. Did you ever see a paper bag?

Mr. Sims. Well, we saw some wrappings—a brown wrapping there.

Mr. Ball. Where did you see it?

Mr. Sims. It was there by the hulls.

Mr. Ball. Was it right there near the hulls?

Mr. Sims. As well as I remember—of course, I didn't pay too much attention at that time, but it was, I believe, by the east side of where the boxes were piled up—that would be a guess—I believe that's where it was.

Mr. Ball. On the east side of where the boxes were—would that be the east?

Mr. Sims. Yes, sir; it was right near the stack of boxes there. I know there was some loose paper there.

Mr. Ball. Was Johnson there?

Mr. Sims. Yes, sir; when the wrapper was found Captain Fritz stationed Johnson and Montgomery to observe the scene there where the hulls were found.

Mr. Ball. To stay there?

Mr. Sims. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. That was Marvin Johnson and L. D. Montgomery who stayed by the hulls?

Mr. Sims. Yes, sir; they did. I was going back and forth, from the wrapper to the hulls.

Mr. Ball. Was the window open in the southeast corner?

Mr. Sims. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Were there any boxes near the window?

Mr. Sims. Yes, sir; there was enough room for someone to stand between the boxes and the window.

Mr. Ball. Were there any boxes anywhere near the window ledge?

Mr. Sims. Yes; there was, I believe, I'm not positive about this, a couple of boxes, one stacked on the other right at the left of the window and then there was a stack of boxes directly behind the window about 3 or 4 feet high, I guess.

Mr. Ball. Did you see anybody take a picture of the boxes in the window—what position they were on the window ledge?

Mr. Sims. Well, Lieutenant Day took a picture of all the surrounding area there.

Mr. Ball. How long were you on the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mr. Sims. Well, sir; let's see—at the time the hulls were found, I think the hulls were found about 1:15, so we were down there just a minute or two. Let's see—we got back to the city hall at 2:15 and we went over and talked to Sheriff Decker 10 or 15 minutes.

Mr. Ball. Now, when you left, you say that Captain Fritz told Johnson and Montgomery to stay near the place where the hulls were located?

Mr. Sims. Yes.

Mr. Ball. Was that after the picture had been taken of the hulls?

Mr. Sims. I believe it was during—before Lieutenant Day got up there, I believe.

Mr. Ball. And it was after that that you went to the place where the rifle was found?

Mr. Sims. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Then did you go back to the place where the hulls were located on the floor?

Mr. Sims. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. That's when the picture was taken?

Mr. Sims. No, sir; he was making pictures during that time.

Mr. Ball. Who picked up the hulls?

Mr. Sims. Well, I assisted Lieutenant Day in picking the hulls up.

Mr. Ball. There were three hulls?

Mr. Sims. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Now, what kind of a receptacle did you put them in?

Mr. Sims. He had an envelope.

163 Mr. Ball. Did he take charge of the hulls there?

Mr. Sims. I don't know.

Mr. Ball. Did he take them in his possession, I mean?

Mr. Sims. I don't remember if he took them in his possession then or not.

Mr. Ball. But you helped him pick them up?

Mr. Sims. I picked them up from the floor and he had an envelope there and he held the envelope open.

Mr. Ball. You didn't take them in your possession, did you?

Mr. Sims. No, sir; I don't believe I did.

Mr. Ball. When the rifle was found, were you there?

Mr. Sims. No, sir; we we still on the sixth floor where the hulls were, I believe.

Mr. Ball. Did you see anyone pick the rifle up off the floor?

Mr. Sims. Yes, sir; I believe Lieutenant Day—he dusted the rifle there for fingerprints.

Mr. Ball. And did you see Fritz do anything?

Mr. Sims. Yes, sir; he took it and ejected a live round of ammunition out of the rifle.

Mr. Ball. Do you know who took possession of that live round?

Mr. Sims. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. Ball. Now, you left the building about what time?

Mr. Sims. Well, we arrived at the city hall around 2 o'clock—I'll have to look at the record—on this—about 2:15—we left there evidently about 2 o'clock.

Mr. Ball. You and who?

Mr. Sims. Captain Fritz and Boyd.

Mr. Ball. Then where did you go?

Mr. Sims. Captain Fritz went over and talked to Sheriff Decker. He sent word he wanted to talk to Captain Fritz, so we talked to the sheriff and then we went to the city hall.

Mr. Ball. Where was Decker when he said he wanted to talk to Fritz?

Mr. Sims. Well, I didn't go inside the sheriff's office—I stayed out in the corridor there.

Mr. Ball. The sheriff's office is just a half a block from the Texas School Depository Building?

Mr. Sims. Yes, sir; it's across the street.

Mr. Ball. And the city hall where your office, the police offices are located, is how far from the corner of Elm and Houston?

Mr. Sims. Well, that's the 500 block there and the city hall is, let's see, in the 2000 block, I believe, so it would be 15 blocks.

Mr. Ball. A couple of miles—a mile and a half?

Mr. Sims. I don't know what it is.

Mr. Ball. When you went back to your offices, was Fritz there at that time?

Mr. Sims. No, sir; he went back with Boyd and I.

Mr. Ball. After you left Decker's?

Mr. Sims. He went back with Boyd and I.

Mr. Ball. What happened when you went back to your office?

Mr. Sims. Well, sir; we got to the office and, of course, it was full of people and I think——

Mr. Ball. You say it was full of people?

Mr. Sims. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. You mean the floor was full of people?

Mr. Sims. Our office was—I don't remember about the people.

Mr. Ball. What people?

Mr. Sims. Officers—police officers, I don't know who all was up there, all I know is that there was a lot of people.

Mr. Ball. Had the press moved in and the television cameras at that time?

Mr. Sims. I don't remember what time they had moved in—I don't remember.

Mr. Ball. Tell me what happened when you got back?

Mr. Sims. Well, sir, I think he talked to a detective then—he's a lieutenant now—Captain Fritz talked to Baker and said, "While we was up in the Book Depository Store we heard Officer Tippit had been shot," and so Baker, I believe, told Captain Fritz that they had the man that had shot Officer Tippit, in the interrogation room.

164 Mr. Ball. Who was that Baker?

Mr. Sims. He was a detective then, but he's a lieutenant now. He has been in the office there for several years.

Mr. Ball. Baker told Fritz that Tippit had been shot?

Mr. Sims. No, sir; that we had heard that on the sixth floor of the Book Store, but he told Captain Fritz that the man that shot Officer Tippit was there in the interrogation room, or something to that effect.

Mr. Ball. What happened then?

Mr. Sims. Well, I don't know, let's see, we took Oswald at 2:20, Boyd and I, took Oswald from the interrogation room to Captain Fritz' office.

Mr. Ball. You and Boyd?

Mr. Sims. Yes.

Mr. Ball. At 2:20 took Oswald—that's the first time you saw Oswald?

Mr. Sims. Yes, sir; that's right, he was there in that interrogation room.

Mr. Ball. And who was in Fritz' office at that time?

Mr. Sims. Well, let's see, during the interrogation, there was Mr. Bookhout, that's Jim Bookhout, and Mr. Hosty, and Boyd and I and Captain Fritz.

Mr. Ball. Did you make notes of what was said at that time?

Mr. Sims. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. Ball. Did your partner, Boyd, make notes, do you think?

Mr. Sims. I don't know if he did or not.

Mr. Ball. Do you have anything from which you can refresh your memory as to what was said in that interrogation?

Mr. Sims. No, sir.

Mr. Ball. You have some memory of what was said, don't you?

Mr. Sims. Well, not the exact wording or the exact questions.

Mr. Ball. Give us your memory of the substance of what was said there at that time.

Mr. Sims. Well, I couldn't say that. I know that it consisted of his name and where he lived and things of that nature, and where he worked.

Mr. Ball. Now, tell us all you can remember, even though it is not complete, just tell us as much as you can remember?

Mr. Sims. I don't remember—I know, like I say, he asked him his name and where he worked and things of that nature.

Mr. Ball. Did they ask him whether or not he had killed Tippit?

Mr. Sims. Yes, sir; I believe he did.

Mr. Ball. What did he say?

Mr. Sims. He said, "No."

Mr. Ball. Did they ask him if he had shot the President?

Mr. Sims. I don't remember now what—I wouldn't want to say for sure what questions he did ask him.

Mr. Ball. Who did the questioning?

Mr. Sims. Captain Fritz.

Mr. Ball. Did anyone else ask him questions?

Mr. Sims. Well, I don't know if they did or not.

Mr. Ball. Did you ask him any questions?

Mr. Sims. No, sir.

Mr. Ball. Well——

Mr. Sims. Not at this time here, I didn't but I talked to him later on that evening.

Mr. Ball. But you didn't ask him any questions at the time you were there then?

Mr. Sims. No, sir; I never did actually do any interrogation myself then.

Mr. Ball. Was he handcuffed at that time?

Mr. Sims. I don't remember if he was or not.

Mr. Ball. Wasn't he handcuffed with his handcuffs behind his back, and didn't he ask to be more comfortable?

Mr. Sims. I don't remember.

Mr. Ball. Do you remember any incident where Oswald said he would be more comfortable if he could get his hands from behind his back, or something of that sort?

Mr. Sims. No, sir; I don't.

165 Mr. Ball. Do you remember changing his handcuffs at any time so that he could put his hands in front of him.

Mr. Sims. Of course, when he took the paraffin cast of his hands, he wasn't handcuffed?

Mr. Ball. But that was late that evening?

Mr. Sims. Yes; it was around—it was after dark, I believe.

Mr. Ball. Now, I'm talking about—only about the interrogation that commenced about 2:20 in the afternoon of November 22.

Mr. Sims. I just don't remember.

Mr. Ball. You don't remember changing the handcuffs?

Mr. Sims. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. Ball. How long was he in Captain Fritz' office?

Mr. Sims. Well, let's see, we first went in there at 2 and we stayed in there evidently—this says here that the Secret Service and the FBI took part in the interrogation of Oswald with Captain Fritz, and we took him down to the first showup at 4:05.

Mr. Ball. Then, would you say he was in Captain Fritz' office from about 2:20 until 4 o'clock?

Mr. Sims. Well, he had to be either in Captain Fritz' office or the interrogation room—that's the only two places that he was kept.

Mr. Ball. All right, do you have any memory of how long he was in Captain Fritz' office the first time for the interrogation?

Mr. Sims. No, sir; I don't recall if he stayed in there from 2:20 until showup time at 4:05 or not. He may have stayed in there all that time or he may have been put back in the interrogation room, which is right next door.

Mr. Ball. Where is the interrogation room from Captain Fritz' office?

Mr. Sims. It's in the same office, but just a different room—there's just a hall separating them.

Mr. Ball. And in the interrogation room, were you with Oswald?

Mr. Sims. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. You and Boyd?

Mr. Sims. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. When he was in the interrogation room for the first showup, did you ask him any questions?

Mr. Sims. Yes; we talked to him.

Mr. Ball. Do you remember what you said to him?

Mr. Sims. No, sir; I don't remember—it was just—I know I asked him about his—later on I asked him about his life in Russia and about him being in the service and things of that nature.

Mr. Ball. Did you ask him that at this time? Before the first showup at 4:05?

Mr. Sims. I don't remember what time it was.

Mr. Ball. There was sometime then that you asked him about his life in Russia?

Mr. Sims. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Are you able to tell us about what time that was?

Mr. Sims. No, sir; I sure don't know what time it was.

Mr. Ball. Could it have been after he had been in Captain Fritz' office and and before the first showup?

Mr. Sims. It was after he had been in Captain Fritz' office; yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. And it was in the interrogation room?

Mr. Sims. I—well, I don't know—I have talked to him both places, and I don't know—I know he wouldn't talk at all about the assassination of the President or of Officer Tippit, but he would talk about his life in Russia and some things over here and about his family and things.

Mr. Ball. Now, you say he wouldn't talk about the assassination of the President, what do you mean?

Mr. Sims. Well, he would just deny knowledge of it.

Mr. Ball. And you say he wouldn't talk about Officer Tippit's death, what do you mean by that; what would he say, if anything?

Mr. Sims. Well, he would make some remark and he just wouldn't talk about it.

166 Mr. Ball. Well, did he ever deny that he had anything to do with it?

Mr. Sims. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. He did?

Mr. Sims. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Did he ever make any admission to you that he had any knowledge of Officer Tippit's death?

Mr. Sims. Not at all; no, sir.

Mr. Ball. Did he ever make any admission to you that he had any knowledge of the shooting of the President at all?

Mr. Sims. None at all.

Mr. Ball. When he did talk to you about his life in Russia, what did you say?

Mr. Sims. Well, I would ask him where he lived and he told me.

Mr. Ball. What did he tell you?

Mr. Sims. Well, I've forgotten the name of the town he said he lived in.

Mr. Ball. Irving, Tex.?

Mr. Sims. No, sir; in Russia.

Mr. Ball. Oh, in Russia—I see—what did he say?

Mr. Sims. Well, it was some town I didn't know about it, but he did say he lived in Moscow, I believe it was.

Mr. Ball. Anything else?

Mr. Sims. Well, he said he worked in a factory and he liked everything over there except the weather.

Mr. Ball. Do you remember anything else he said?

Mr. Sims. Well, no, sir; we talked about—just a general discussion about the cars over there and the appliances, and just talked to him about it.

Mr. Ball. Did he tell you about his wife?

Mr. Sims. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. What did he say?

Mr. Sims. I don't remember what he said about his wife—he wouldn't talk about her much.

Mr. Ball. Or his children?

Mr. Sims. He said he had some children; yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Did he say anything else except he had some children?

Mr. Sims. I believe he said he had—I don't know if he told me he had a brother or not.

Mr. Ball. There was one time there that you learned that he had a room at 1026 North Beckley—when did you learn that?

Mr. Sims. I don't know when that was, now, that was found out that first day, I believe. Another officer went out and searched his room and also went to Irving, I believe.

Mr. Ball. The officers went out and searched the room sometime that afternoon, around 3:30.

Mr. Sims. That's right, I believe so.

Mr. Ball. Can you tell me whether or not you are the one that found out he had a room at 1026 North Beckley?

Mr. Sims. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. Ball. He didn't tell you that?

Mr. Sims. No, sir; I don't believe he did.

Mr. Ball. All right. Did he tell you that his wife lived in Irving, Tex.?

Mr. Sims. I don't remember if he told me that or not.

Mr. Ball. Now, the first showup was at what time?

Mr. Sims. At 4:05.

Mr. Ball. How did you conduct that showup?

Mr. Sims. Well, we took Oswald down with us with the two police officers.

Mr. Ball. What two police officers?

Mr. Sims. Clark and Perry.

Mr. Ball. You say you took him down—where was he when you took him down?

Mr. Sims. He was in our office, Captain Fritz' office.

Mr. Ball. That would be on the second floor?

Mr. Sims. Third floor.

Mr. Ball. On the third floor?

167 Mr. Sims. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. And where did you take him?

Mr. Sims. Well, we walked out of our door and turned left, and you go a few feet and go to the elevator—where the waiting room for the elevator is—it's a locked door, and then go from there to the basement of the city hall and then go from the elevator there to the holdover room next to the stage, the showup stage.

Mr. Ball. You have a special place for showups, do you?

Mr. Sims. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. And would you describe it?

Mr. Sims. Yes, sir; in front of it is the detail room, where the officers get their assignments every day before they go out in the squads, and the platform is a raised platform—I guess it's 2 or 2 or 3 feet raised above the floor and it has got a black—some type of a cloth screen with floodlights at the top and down at the bottom.

Mr. Ball. Is it a cloth screen between the——

Mr. Sims. Between the suspects and the witnesses we have.

Mr. Ball. The stage and the outer part of the room?

Mr. Sims. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Are there seats in the room?

Mr. Sims. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. What kind of seats?

Mr. Sims. They are just a regular chair—with a long desk, something like this here.

Mr. Ball. You say you took Oswald down with a couple of the officers?

Mr. Sims. Yes, sir; two of the officers went with us—Perry and Clark.

Mr. Ball. And they are Dallas Police Department officers, are they?

Mr. Sims. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. And why did you have to have them come down with you?

Mr. Sims. I don't know why they did.

Mr. Ball. Who instructed them to go with you?

Mr. Sims. I don't know that. I know they said they were there for the showup so we went with them.

Mr. Ball. During the showup, were they part of the showup?

Mr. Sims. Yes; they participated in the showup; they were with Oswald and this jailer.

Mr. Ball. How were they dressed?

Mr. Sims. I believe one of them pulled his coat off, and I don't know how they were dressed, but one of them pulled his coat off—I know.

Mr. Ball. Were they handcuffed?

Mr. Sims. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. They were handcuffed together?

Mr. Sims. Yes; all of them was handcuffed.

Mr. Ball. Now, there were four of them altogether?

Mr. Sims. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. In the showup?

Mr. Sims. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. What were their names?

Mr. Sims. They were—well, it would be Clark and Perry and Oswald.

Mr. Ball. Give their full names, if you will.

Mr. Sims. All right.

Mr. Ball. And what their position is with the Dallas Police Department.

Mr. Sims. No. 1 was Bill Perry, W. E. Perry, he was No. 1, with the Dallas Police Department, and No. 2 was Lee Harvey Oswald, and No. 3 was R. L. Clark with the Dallas Police Department, and No. 4 was Don Ables, who is a civilian jail clerk.

Mr. Ball. And who selected Don Ables to be in the showup?

Mr. Sims. I don't know who selected him.

Mr. Ball. Does he have his office in the jail?

Mr. Sims. Well, yes, sir; the jail office—he works in there.

Mr. Ball. Can you give me just a general description of what these fellows look like?

168 Mr. Sims. Yes, sir; W. E. Perry, he is 34 years of age, 5'10 1/2" and about 170, I believe and that's a guess, now. He has brown hair, blue eyes, and dark complexion. Richard L. Clark is 31, 5'9 3/4", 170, has blond hair, blue eyes, and ruddy complexion.

Now, these weights could be different now—I don't know. Don Ables is 26, 5'9", 165, and brown hair.

Mr. Ball. What kind of complexion does Don Ables have?

Mr. Sims. I don't have that here—I believe he's just ruddy complexion, I believe.

Mr. Ball. Now, in the showup, where were you, on the stage or in the audience?

Mr. Sims. I was on the stage.

Mr. Ball. And did you hear anything that was said from the audience part of the showup?

Mr. Sims. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. What did you hear?

Mr. Sims. Well, someone was asking each one in the showup a few questions.

Mr. Ball. Do you know who that was that asked the questions in the first showup?

Mr. Sims. I'm not positive, but I believe it was Detective Leavelle in our office conducted the first showup.

Mr. Ball. And what questions did they ask?

Mr. Sims. I couldn't say the exact questions, but as a rule, his age and address and where he went to school and where he was born and just a few questions like that, just to have them say a few words.

Mr. Ball. Did Leavelle ask all of the questions?

Mr. Sims. He asked all four of the men in the showup.

Mr. Ball. How did Oswald act at this showup; tell me what he did and what he said?

Mr. Sims. Well, he just acted more or less like the other—acted natural.

Mr. Ball. Answered the questions?

Mr. Sims. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Did he protest any?

Mr. Sims. No, sir.

Mr. Ball. Did he say that he had a T-shirt on and no one else had a T-shirt on?

Mr. Sims. No, sir; now, I think the showup that I didn't conduct the next day, I believe he refused to answer questions or said something about a T-shirt or something.

Mr. Ball. He didn't say anything of that sort?

Mr. Sims. No, sir; he acted normal, with the other showups I was in.

Mr. Ball. He answered the questions?

Mr. Sims. Yes, sir; he did.

Mr. Ball. Did you hear anything else from the audience side of the showup?

Mr. Sims. No, sir.

Mr. Ball. Do you know the names of any witnesses that were out there?

Mr. Sims. No, sir; I didn't know who was out there.

Mr. Ball. Did you talk to any of the witnesses that were out there?

Mr. Sims. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. Ball. Either before or after the showup, did you talk to any of the witnesses out there?

Mr. Sims. I don't believe I did—I don't believe so.

Mr. Ball. Did you take any statements from any of the witnesses in this showup?

Mr. Sims. No, sir.

Mr. Ball. After this showup, what did you do?

Mr. Sims. We brought Oswald back to the office there.

Mr. Ball. To the interrogation room?

Mr. Sims. No, sir; back to Captain Fritz' office at 4:20.

Mr. Ball. At 4:20?

Mr. Sims. Yes.

Mr. Ball. Who was present in Captain Fritz' office at that time?

169 Mr. Sims. The FBI agents and Secret Service agents talked to Oswald some more.

Mr. Ball. What were their names?

Mr. Sims. I don't know their names.

Mr. Ball. You didn't record the names of the Secret Service officers?

Mr. Sims. No, sir.

Mr. Ball. Now, do you remember how long this interrogation of Oswald took place?

Mr. Sims. Well, sir, we took him back to the second showup at 6:20, so that would be a matter of 2 hours. Now, whether he was in Captain Fritz' office all this time or in the interrogation room some of the time or Captain Fritz' office all the time, I don't remember.

Mr. Ball. Now, at this second interrogation at Captain Fritz' office beginning at 4:20, was Oswald handcuffed?

Mr. Sims. Well, now, I can't tell you—I don't remember if he were handcuffed or not.

Mr. Ball. Did you make any notes of what was said at that time?

Mr. Sims. No, sir; I never did make any notes of any of the interrogation.

Mr. Ball. Do you remember anything that was said at 4:20?

Mr. Sims. No, sir; I couldn't.

Mr. Ball. Do you have any memory at all?

Mr. Sims. No.

Mr. Ball. Could you make any kind of an attempt to testify to what you heard there?

Mr. Sims. No, sir; I couldn't say for sure what was said or what he told Captain Fritz or the agents either.

Mr. Ball. Did you ask any questions?

Mr. Sims. No, sir; the only time I would talk to him would be when Captain Fritz would be out of the office and then Boyd and I, or whoever was in the office with him would talk to him.

Mr. Ball. But at this time when the Secret Service and the FBI were in Captain Fritz' office, did you ask any questions at that time?

Mr. Sims. No.

Mr. Ball. Did anyone—any Secret Service man or any FBI man ask him questions at that time?

Mr. Sims. Yes; they asked him questions.

Mr. Ball. Did you know those men?

Mr. Sims. Well, I know a good many of them here—I didn't have their names—I don't remember who it was.

Mr. Ball. You don't remember who was in there at the time?

Mr. Sims. No, sir.

Mr. Ball. Now, at 6:20 there was another showup, was there?

Mr. Sims. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. And where was Oswald before you took him to that showup?

Mr. Sims. He would be there in Captain Fritz' office there in the city hall.

Mr. Ball. And you took him where?

Mr. Sims. Back down to the same stage—on the stage there.

Mr. Ball. Who was in this second showup?

Mr. Sims. The same officers and the jail clerk that was with him on the first one.

Mr. Ball. Mention their names again.

Mr. Sims. All right, the second showup was at 6:20, approximately, and there was W. E. Perry, police officer, Richard Clark, police department, and Don Ables, jail civilian clerk.

Mr. Ball. Were these men handcuffed at this time?

Mr. Sims. Yes, sir; they were handcuffed.

Mr. Ball. Were they dressed the same?

Mr. Sims. I believe so; yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Were they dressed differently than Oswald?

Mr. Sims. Yes; I know they didn't have the color of clothes on or things like that.

Mr. Ball. Did they have ties on?

170 Mr. Sims. I don't recall if they did or not.

Mr. Ball. Oswald had a T-shirt on, didn't he?

Mr. Sims. He had on a brown shirt, some kind of a brown shirt, and he had a white T-shirt on underneath that.

Mr. Ball. Underneath that?

Mr. Sims. Yes; underneath that.

Mr. Ball. His clothes were rougher looking than the other men?

Mr. Sims. Well, I don't imagine that he would be dressed as nice as the officers were, as far as their clothes.

Mr. Ball. Well, the other three men that were in the showup, did they have coats on—did anyone have a coat on?

Mr. Sims. Well, I don't believe—Mr. Ables—I'm pretty sure he didn't have a coat on and don't believe any of the officers had them on—I don't remember how they was dressed as far as their coats go.

Mr. Ball. Do you remember whether or not they had ties on?

Mr. Sims. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. Ball. Who conducted the showup?

Mr. Sims. Well, the second showup, I'm not positive, but I believe I conducted the second showup.

Mr. Ball. How did you conduct it?

Mr. Sims. Well, they are all under a number and I would have them—one, two, three, and four, and No. 1 stand on that center back square there and give their names and age and address and if they own a car, where they went to school, where they were born, where they were raised.

Mr. Ball. Did you know who was out in the audience with the witnesses?

Mr. Sims. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. Ball. Do you know the names of any of the witnesses?

Mr. Sims. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. Ball. Did you hear any conversation that came from the audience side of the showup?

Mr. Sims. None that I can recall.

Mr. Ball. Now, did you give us in your first showup the numbers assigned to these people?

Mr. Sims. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Nos. 1, 2, 3, and 4?

Mr. Sims. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. All right.

Mr. Sims. I'm sure I did.

Mr. Ball. Well, I wasn't sure you did, but give us the numbers assigned to the second showup.

Mr. Sims. The first showup at 4:05 was No. 1, Bill Perry, Lee Oswald, R. L. Clark, and Don Ables.

Mr. Ball. That was the order—one, two, three, four?

Mr. Sims. Yes, sir; one, two, three, four.

Mr. Ball. Now, give us the order of the second showup?

Mr. Sims. Numbered the same for the second showup.

Mr. Ball. The same numbers?

Mr. Sims. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. The same men?

Mr. Sims. Same men and same numbers.

Mr. Ball. After that showup, what did you do?

Mr. Sims. We went back to Captain Fritz' office, and let me see, at 6:37, we left the showup and went back to Captain Fritz' office.

Mr. Ball. And what did you do then?

Mr. Sims. We stayed with Oswald.

Mr. Ball. Now, in your report, you mentioned that a murder complaint was signed by Fritz that evening?

Mr. Sims. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Were you present when that happened?

Mr. Sims. Yes.

Mr. Ball. Was Oswald present also?

171 Mr. Sims. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. He was present when the murder complaint was signed?

Mr. Sims. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Where did this take place?

Mr. Sims. In Captain Fritz' office.

Mr. Ball. And who was present?

Mr. Sims. Well, let me see—Justice of the Peace Dave Johnston, and Assistant District Attorney Bill Alexander, and I don't know who else was there—I don't know who else was present.

Mr. Ball. Was the judge there—the justice judge—the J.P., Dave Johnston?

Mr. Sims. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. And Bill Alexander and Fritz?

Mr. Sims. Yes.

Mr. Ball. And you? And Boyd?

Mr. Sims. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. And Oswald was there?

Mr. Sims. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Was anything said to Oswald about the signing of a murder complaint?

Mr. Sims. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. What was said, and who said it?

Mr. Sims. I don't remember what was said—I know Judge Johnston talked to him and Captain Fritz talked to him.

Mr. Ball. And did Alexander talk to him?

Mr. Sims. I believe he did, but I'm not positive about that.

Mr. Ball. Do you remember what Judge Johnston said?

Mr. Sims. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. Ball. Do you remember what Oswald said?

Mr. Sims. No, sir.

Mr. Ball. Did anyone tell him that a murder complaint was being filed against him?

Mr. Sims. I believe so; yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. For what murder?

Mr. Sims. For Officer Tippit.

Mr. Ball. Do you remember what Oswald said?

Mr. Sims. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. Ball. Then what did you do with Oswald after that?

Mr. Sims. At 7:40 we entered the third showup.

Mr. Ball. Now, at 7:30 an FBI agent came in, didn't he, according to your records?

Mr. Sims. Yes, sir; at 7:30—we sat in the office with Oswald and Mr. Clements of the FBI came in and interrogated Oswald.

Mr. Ball. You and Boyd were there?

Mr. Sims. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. What did Clements ask him?

Mr. Sims. I don't remember the questions he asked him.

Mr. Ball. Did you hear what Oswald said?

Mr. Sims. Yes, sir; but I don't remember what the answers were.

Mr. Ball. Then, when was the next showup?

Mr. Sims. At 7:40.

Mr. Ball. And who were the men in the third showup?

Mr. Sims. Well, the third showup was No. 1—a Richard Walker [spelling] B-o-r-c-h-g-a-r-d-t.

Mr. Ball. Borchgardt—what is his address; do you have that?

Mr. Sims. No, sir; I don't have his address. He was a city prisoner.

Mr. Ball. Do you know what he was charged with at that time?

Mr. Sims. No, sir—I have his arrest number and his I.D. number.

Mr. Ball. And then was he No. 1?

Mr. Sims. No. 1——

Mr. Ball. And who else?

Mr. Sims. No. 2 was Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. Ball. Who was three?

172 Mr. Sims. Ellis Carl Brazel.

Mr. Ball. Who was he?

Mr. Sims. He was a city prisoner.

Mr. Ball. Do you know what he was charged with?

Mr. Sims. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. Ball. Do you know his address?

Mr. Sims. No, sir.

Mr. Ball. Do you know what happened to him?

Mr. Sims. I believe he's in the penitentiary.

Mr. Ball. Brazel is in the penitentiary?

Mr. Sims. I believe so—I'm not positive.

Mr. Ball. Who was No. 4?

Mr. Sims. No. 4 was Don Ables.

Mr. Ball. That's the jail clerk?

Mr. Sims. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Do you remember how these men were dressed?

Mr. Sims. No, sir; I don't, I don't remember how they were dressed.

Mr. Ball. Did they have coats on?

Mr. Sims. I don't remember if they had coats on or not.

Mr. Ball. Were they all handcuffed?

Mr. Sims. Yes.

Mr. Ball. Together?

Mr. Sims. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Who conducted this showup?

Mr. Sims. I don't remember who actually had the suspects to talk or who was out in front.

Mr. Ball. You were on the stage side?

Mr. Sims. Still on the stage side; yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. And did someone from the audience side conduct the showup and ask the questions?

Mr. Sims. Yes.

Mr. Ball. Did Oswald answer the questions?

Mr. Sims. Yes.

Mr. Ball. Was he dressed differently than the other three at that time?

Mr. Sims. Well, he was dressed differently but I don't know—how differently he was dressed.

Mr. Ball. What did he have on?

Mr. Sims. He still had on the same clothes he was arrested in, so far as I know.

Mr. Ball. In all three showups he had on the same clothes you described before?

Mr. Sims. I believe he did.

Mr. Ball. Here is Commission No. 150, is that the shirt he had on?

Mr. Sims. Yes; that's the color shirt he had on.

Mr. Ball. And then he had on a T-shirt?

Mr. Sims. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Is that the shirt he had on?

Mr. Sims. Well—one that color—yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Now, in this showup, did you know any of the witnesses that were in the audience side?

Mr. Sims. Well, I knew about them, but I didn't know who was out there—no, sir.

Mr. Ball. Did you talk to them?

Mr. Sims. No, sir.

Mr. Ball. Did you ever take a witness' statement from any of the witnesses at either of the three showups?

Mr. Sims. Never did——

Mr. Ball. After that showup, what did you do?

Mr. Sims. Well, we took him back up to Captain Fritz' office.

Mr. Ball. About what time was this?

Mr. Sims. 7:55.

Mr. Ball. And who was there at that time?

173 Mr. Sims. Mr. Clements, and he continued his interrogation of Oswald for about another half hour.

Mr. Ball. And were you present?

Mr. Sims. I probably was; yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Who was present besides you?

Mr. Sims. I couldn't say—I know Boyd was and I was present, but I don't know if he was in there all the time or not.

Mr. Ball. Now, during this time, or sometime during this period—sometime between these three showups, you searched Oswald, didn't you?

Mr. Sims. The first one; yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. And that was what time?

Mr. Sims. It was 4:05, I believe, but I will have to check my record here and see [checking his record referred to].

Mr. Ball. That was after the second showup?

Mr. Sims. No, sir; the first one.

Mr. Ball. After the first showup?

Mr. Sims. It was before the first showup.

Mr. Ball. It was before the first showup—the 4:05?

Mr. Sims. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. And that was after the first interrogation?

Mr. Sims. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. And where were you when you first searched him?

Mr. Sims. We was in the holdover, in other words, the showup room.

Mr. Ball. When you took Oswald down for the first showup and waited in the room outside, the showup room, you searched him?

Mr. Sims. Yes; Boyd and I.

Mr. Ball. What did you find?

Mr. Sims. I found a bus transfer slip in his shirt pocket.

Mr. Ball. And what else?

Mr. Sims. Well, Boyd found some .38 cartridges in his pocket.

Mr. Ball. How many?

Mr. Sims. I don't know—I have it here—I believe it's five rounds of .38 caliber pistol shells in his left front pocket.

Mr. Ball. Left-front shirt pocket?

Mr. Sims. No, sir; they were in his pants pocket.

Mr. Ball. Left front?

Mr. Sims. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Where was the transfer?

Mr. Sims. The transfer was in his shirt pocket.

Mr. Ball. Would that be on the left side, I suppose?

Mr. Sims. I don't know if he's got two pockets or not.

Mr. Ball. Let's take a look at it.

Mr. Sims. (Examined Exhibit hereinafter referred to).

Mr. Ball. Commission Exhibit 150 is being exhibited for the witness' examination.

Mr. Sims. Well, he's got two pockets in here and let's see if I have it on here—what pocket it was—I didn't say—I don't remember what pocket he had that in.

Mr. Ball. What did you do with the transfer?

Mr. Sims. I went back up to the office and I believe initialed it and placed it in an envelope for identification.

Mr. Ball. Who did you turn it over to?

Mr. Sims. I don't remember.

Mr. Ball. You don't remember?

Mr. Sims. No, sir; it was either in the lieutenant's desk or Captain Fritz' desk.

Mr. Ball. Lieutenant who?

Mr. Sims. We have two in there—Lieutenant Wells and Lieutenant Bohart.

Mr. Ball. And what about the five rounds of live ammunition, what did you do with those?

Mr. Sims. It was also placed in the envelope.

Mr. Ball. And turned over to whom—Fritz?

Mr. Sims. I don't know who that was turned over to.

Mr. Ball. Did you ever talk to a busdriver named McWatters?

174 Mr. Sims. No, sir; I remember a busdriver coming up there but I don't think I talked with him.

Mr. Ball. Did you ever examine the transfer for the punchmark date?

Mr. Sims. The busdriver did. He identified that as coming from his punch-card.

Mr. Ball. I know, but I want to know about you—did you look at the transfer?

Mr. Sims. Yes, sir; I looked at it.

Mr. Ball. Did you look at the date and the time that it was punched on the transfer?

Mr. Sims. I don't remember if I did or not. I'm sure I looked at it but I don't remember.

Mr. Ball. You say it was shown to a busdriver and he made some remarks about it; were you there when it was shown to the busdriver?

Mr. Sims. No, sir.

Mr. Ball. So, you are just telling me what some other officer told you?

Mr. Sims. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. All right.

Mr. Sims. I didn't see actually the busdriver, I don't believe, identify his transfer.

Mr. Ball. Do you know the officer that showed the transfer to the busdriver?

Mr. Sims. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. Ball. Did you see any identification bracelet on Oswald?

Mr. Sims. Yes, sir; he had an identification bracelet.

Mr. Ball. Did he have that on at the time of the showup?

Mr. Sims. Yes.

Mr. Ball. Did you ever remove that?

Mr. Sims. Yes, sir; when they were getting his paraffin cast on his hands.

Mr. Ball. And what did you do with that identification bracelet?

Mr. Sims. I placed it in the property room cardsheet.

Mr. Ball. Did you examine that identification bracelet?

Mr. Sims. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. What did it have on it, if you remember?

Mr. Sims. It had his name on it.

Mr. Ball. And what was it made out of? What material?

Mr. Sims. It was, I guess, sterling silver. It was a regular G.I. identification bracelet with a chain and then his nameplate across the top.

Mr. Ball. Now, we are up to the time after the last showup when Mr. Clements interrogated Oswald for about half an hour; what happened after the interrogation by Mr. Clements?

Mr. Sims. At 8:55 Detective Johnny Hicks and R. L. Studebaker of the crime lab came to Captain Fritz' office.

Mr. Ball. What did they do?

Mr. Sims. Hicks fingerprinted Oswald and then Sgt. Pete Barnes came in.

Mr. Ball. What is his name?

Mr. Sims. Pete Barnes. He is working with the crime lab also.

Mr. Ball. And what did Barnes do?

Mr. Sims. Well, he may have assisted in the fingerprinting—I don't know for sure.

Mr. Ball. Is he a crime lab man also?

Mr. Sims. Yes, sir, and then shortly later, Capt. George Doughty came in, he's in charge of the crime lab.

Mr. Ball. And what did he do?

Mr. Sims. He just stayed a few minutes.

Mr. Ball. How do you spell his name?

Mr. Sims. (spelling). D-o-u-g-h-t-y—George Doughty.

Mr. Ball. Now, did they make paraffin tests?

Mr. Sims. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. They made casts at that time?

Mr. Sims. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Of what?

175 Mr. Sims. (reading from instrument in his possession). "He and Barnes made paraffin casts of both hands and also the right side of his face."

Mr. Ball. That "he and Barnes"—who is "he"?

Mr. Sims. That would be Johnny Hicks, I think.

Mr. Ball. That was Johnny Hicks and Lieutenant Barnes?

Mr. Sims. Yes, sir; and Barnes is a sergeant.

Mr. Ball. Sergeant Barnes and Johnny Hicks made the paraffin casts?

Mr. Sims. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Of both hands and what side of his face?

Mr. Sims. And also the right side of his face.

Mr. Ball. Of whose face?

Mr. Sims. Oswald's face.

Mr. Ball. Were you there when they were made?

Mr. Sims. I was in the room—most of the time I was.

Mr. Ball. What time were these paraffin casts made?

Mr. Sims. We started the fingerprinting at 8:55, I believe, they lasted a good long while—I don't know how long.

Mr. Ball. What time were the paraffin casts made?

Mr. Sims. I don't have any idea—it was sometime after 8:55.

Mr. Ball. Can you give me an outside limit on it?

Mr. Sims. Well, sir, they started the fingerprinting at 8:55, I guess—that would take—just a rough guess, 10 or 15 minutes to do that, and they had to heat their wax first and make the preparations then for the paraffin tests.

Mr. Ball. Would you say that the paraffin tests were made not later than 10 o'clock that day?

Mr. Sims. Not later than 10?

Mr. Ball. Yes, sir.

Mr. Sims. No, sir; I couldn't say. I know that they were in the office there all this time making these paraffin casts of his hands and his face.

Mr. Ball. Then what happened?

Mr. Sims. Well, at 11:30 p.m., Barratt and I made out the arrest sheets on Oswald.

Mr. Ball. Where was Oswald then?

Mr. Sims. He was there and he was still in the office there.

Mr. Ball. Did you make the arrest sheets out in front of him while he was there in the office?

Mr. Sims. I don't know if he was present when we did it or not.

Mr. Ball. But he was still in the interrogation room of Captain Fritz' office?

Mr. Sims. Yes, sir; he was in one or the other; yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Who had charge of him when you made out the arrest sheets?

Mr. Sims. I don't know who that would be.

Mr. Ball. What did you do after that?

Mr. Sims. We made out the arrest sheets on Oswald and shortly afterwards Chief Curry and Captain Fritz came into the office there, came back to the office, and told us to take Oswald down out in front of the stage at the showup room.

Mr. Ball. Why did you do that?

Mr. Sims. Because we were told to.

Mr. Ball. Was that usual to do that?

Mr. Sims. Is it usual?

Mr. Ball. Yes.

Mr. Sims. Yes; it's unusual.

Mr. Ball. Unusual to do it?

Mr. Sims. Yes.

Mr. Ball. He didn't tell you why he did it?

Mr. Sims. No, sir.

Mr. Ball. What did you do it for?

Mr. Sims. Just for the press, I believe.

Mr. Ball. For the press?

Mr. Sims. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. What did you do?

Mr. Sims. We—shortly before midnight—we took him down to the—they176 call it—it's where the officers meet there, where the showup room is—the assembly room.

Mr. Ball. And was he on the stage?

Mr. Sims. No, sir.

Mr. Ball. Where was he?

Mr. Sims. He was in front of the stage.

Mr. Ball. And—in front of the stage?

Mr. Sims. Yes.

Mr. Ball. And what happened?

Mr. Sims. Well, he had—the room was full of newspapermen.

Mr. Ball. And what did they do?

Mr. Sims. Well, I believe they had a little short interview there with him.

Mr. Ball. Did they ask him questions?

Mr. Sims. Yes.

Mr. Ball. Did he answer?

Mr. Sims. He answered; yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Were the television cameras in there also?

Mr. Sims. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. And this was about what time?

Mr. Sims. Well, it would be about 12—we kept him in there about 5 minutes and went to the jail office about 12:20, so that would have been about, I guess, about 12:15.

Mr. Ball. Tell me exactly what Chief Curry told you before you took him down there—what were his exact instructions?

Mr. Sims. I don't believe Chief Curry said anything to me.

Mr. Ball. Captain Fritz told you to take him down there?

Mr. Sims. We were told to take him down to the press—to the police assembly room.

Mr. Ball. Who gave you those specific orders?

Mr. Sims. Well, I couldn't say who gave me those specific orders.

Mr. Ball. Do you think it was Fritz?

Mr. Sims. I just don't remember who it was.

Mr. Ball. You have stated in your notes that Chief Curry came to Fritz' office and told you to take Oswald down in front of the stage at the showup room?

Mr. Sims. Let's see (reading from instrument in his possession) "* * * shortly afterwards Chief Curry and Captain Fritz came to Captain Fritz' office and told us to take Oswald down out in front of the stage at the showup room."

Mr. Ball. Does that look like it was Curry that told you that?

Mr. Sims. I don't know which one of them told us.

Mr. Ball. Did one of the two tell you?

Mr. Sims. Yes; evidently they did.

Mr. Ball. And what else did they tell you?

Mr. Sims. (Reading from instrument in his hand.) "Chief Curry gave us instructions not to let anyone touch Oswald, and if they attempted to do so, for us to take him to jail immediately."

Mr. Ball. This was in connection with the press interview with Oswald, wasn't it?

Mr. Sims. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Do you remember what questions were asked Oswald?

Mr. Sims. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. Ball. Did they ask him whether or not he had shot the President?

Mr. Sims. I believe that was asked—yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. What did he tell them?

Mr. Sims. He told them "no."

Mr. Ball. Did they ask him if he had killed Tippit or shot Tippit?

Mr. Sims. I don't remember if they did or not—it was just a bunch of them hollering at him—that's all I remember.

Mr. Ball. A bunch of them doing what?

Mr. Sims. A bunch of them hollering at him—talking to him.

Mr. Ball. Were they talking loud?

Mr. Sims. Yes, sir; it was pretty noisy.

177 Mr. Ball. Now, you took him back to the jail office at 12:20?

Mr. Sims. Yes; we took him back to the jail office at 12:20 a.m. on November the 23d.

Mr. Ball. And you turned him over to the jailer?

Mr. Sims. No, sir; we took him up to the fourth floor.

Mr. Ball. And what did you do then?

Mr. Sims. We turned him over to the jailers there.

Mr. Ball. You turned him over to the jailers on the fourth floor?

Mr. Sims. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Now, the next day, did you see him?

Mr. Sims. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. What time did you go to work?

Mr. Sims. Well, let's see, I arrived for work at 9:30 a.m.

Mr. Ball. And when did you first see Oswald?

Mr. Sims. We checked at 10:25 a.m.—we checked—Boyd and I checked Lee Harvey Oswald out of jail and brought him to Captain Fritz' office for questioning.

Mr. Ball. Who was present at that time?

Mr. Sims. Let's see, Mr. Bookhout of the FBI and Robert Nash who is the U.S. marshal, Mr. Kelley of the Secret Service.

Mr. Ball. And who else?

Mr. Sims. And that was all.

Mr. Ball. And yourself?

Mr. Sims. No, sir; I believe it says here—"Boyd and Hall stayed in the office during the interrogation."

Mr. Ball. You weren't in there?

Mr. Sims. No, sir.

Mr. Ball. Do you know why you left—did you have something else to do?

Mr. Sims. No, sir; I don't know if I was called out or what.

Mr. Ball. And how long did that interrogation take?

Mr. Sims. We returned him back to the jail at 11:30 a.m.

Mr. Ball. What did you do after that?

Mr. Sims. Then, shortly afterward, myself and Boyd and Hall and Detective C. N. Dhority, (spelling) D-h-o-r-i-t-y—we went to Oswald's room at 1026 North Beckley.

Mr. Ball. Who told you to do that?

Mr. Sims. Captain Fritz.

Mr. Ball. And what did you do out there?

Mr. Sims. We made another search of his room.

Mr. Ball. What do you mean by "search"—did you have a search warrant?

Mr. Sims. I don't remember if we had a search warrant or not.

Mr. Ball. You went in the house, did you?

Mr. Sims. Yes; we went in the house.

Mr. Ball. Did you talk to the owner, Mrs. Johnson?

Mr. Sims. Yes; we talked to him.

Mr. Ball. Mr. or Mrs.—which one?

Mr. Sims. I believe both of them was there; I'm not positive about that.

Mr. Ball. And you went into Oswald's room, didn't you?

Mr. Sims. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. And what did you see?

Mr. Sims. I think all we found in there was a paper clip or something of that nature. I don't remember what it was.

Mr. Ball. A paper clip?

Mr. Sims. We didn't find anything.

Mr. Ball. Did you take anything away with you?

Mr. Sims. Yes, sir; we took the paper clip and a rubber band or something—I don't know what it was—it wasn't anything to speak of, I know, the room was clean.

Mr. Ball. What time did you arrive and what time did you leave?

Mr. Sims. Well, shortly after 11:30 we left—we arrived at 11:59 and left at 12:30.

Mr. Ball. What did you do after that?

178 Mr. Sims. Well——

Mr. Ball. In the afternoon, did you work on this case? On the Oswald case?

Mr. Sims. Yes; I'm sure we did.

Mr. Ball. Do you remember what you did?

Mr. Sims. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. Ball. Did you talk to any witnesses?

Mr. Sims. No, sir; I didn't talk to any.

Mr. Ball. Did you take any statements?

Mr. Sims. No.

Mr. Ball. When was the next time you saw Oswald?

Mr. Sims. At 6 o'clock.

Mr. Ball. What did you do then?

Mr. Sims. We brought him back to Captain Fritz' office.

Mr. Ball. Who are "we"?

Mr. Sims. Myself, M. G. Hall, and Detective L. C. Graves.

Mr. Ball. Where was Boyd when you did that?

Mr. Sims. I don't know.

Mr. Ball. He wasn't with you at that time?

Mr. Sims. No, sir.

Mr. Ball. Where did you get Oswald?

Mr. Sims. From the jail.

Mr. Ball. You took him to Fritz' office?

Mr. Sims. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. How long did you stay there?

Mr. Sims. We returned him at—myself, Hall, and Graves—returned him at 7:15 to the jail.

Mr. Ball. Now, were you in Captain Fritz' office during that interrogation?

Mr. Sims. No; I don't believe I was.

Mr. Ball. Do you know what you did after that?

Mr. Sims. No, sir; I don't know what I did after that.

Mr. Ball. Did you ever see Oswald again?

Mr. Sims. No, sir; I never did see him again.

Mr. Ball. Were you on duty on the 24th?

Mr. Sims. No, sir; I was off that day.

Mr. Ball. And you heard of Oswald's death over the radio; is that right?

Mr. Sims. Over the television.

Mr. Ball. You watched it over television, did you?

Mr. Sims. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Do you fellows have any suggestions for questions—you might go ahead and ask him any questions if you have any?

Mr. Stern. Yes; I have a few things I would like to ask him with reference to this—I'm not sure that we identified his notes and I believe we ought to do that.

You were reading from or referring to a memorandum that you made when, Mr. Sims?

Mr. Sims. In regards to the President's assassination and the killing of Officer Tippit.

Mr. Stern. When did you make the memorandum?

Mr. Sims. I don't know—it was shortly after the 24th.

Mr. Stern. Within 3 or 4 days?

Mr. Sims. The same week—yes, sir.

Mr. Stern. And you made it with your partner, Officer Boyd, the two of you?

Mr. Sims. Yes, sir.

Mr. Stern. You worked it out together?

Mr. Sims. Yes, sir.

Mr. Stern. Let the record show that this is a memorandum that appears as Commission Document 81-B, at pages 234 through 240. Was this memorandum made from notes that you noted at various times as the things occurred?

Mr. Sims. Notes and memory.

Mr. Stern. They were made from your notes and memory?

Mr. Sims. From my notes and memory.

179 Mr. Stern. And those notes were destroyed when the memorandum was prepared?

Mr. Sims. Mr. Boyd may have his—I don't have mine.

Mr. Stern. You don't have your notes?

Mr. Sims. No, sir; I don't have mine.

Mr. Stern. The memorandum quotes a number of times—a very specific figure—is this because you had some record of these times?

Mr. Sims. We keep records of the time that things happen.

Mr. Stern. To the nearest minutes?

Mr. Sims. Yes.

Mr. Stern. And that's why you can be so precise in your memorandum?

Mr. Sims. That's right.

Mr. Stern. The information you gave us a little earlier describing the two police and the jail clerk that were in the first two lineups, your statement there was based upon notes that you brought here with you; is that right?

Mr. Sims. You mean their descriptions?

Mr. Stern. Yes; their descriptions.

Mr. Sims. Yes, sir; I got the descriptions after I was notified to be over here.

Mr. Stern. Do you know these individuals?

Mr. Sims. Yes; I know them.

Mr. Stern. And these descriptions are accurate?

Mr. Sims. Well, I don't know about the weight. I got this off of their descriptions we have up there in the ID bureau in the personnel file—that weight, I believe, Perry's—I just guessed at the weight.

Mr. Stern. Do you have the same descriptions available for the two city prisoners?

Mr. Sims. Yes, sir; I have those.

Mr. Stern. Would you tell us what those are?

Mr. Sims. Yes, sir. Richard Walter Borchgardt, he is 23 years of age, 5' 9", 161 pounds, blue eyes, blond hair, and ruddy complexion.

Ellis Carl Brazel [spelling] B-r-a-z-e-l, he's 22 years of age, 5' 10", 169 pounds. Now, this weight could be one way or the other because this was at the time that they were arrested when they got this description.

Mr. Stern. This information was obtained from police records?

Mr. Sims. Yes, sir. He has green eyes, blond hair, and ruddy complexion.

Mr. Stern. As far as you now remember, does it accurately describe the two?

Mr. Sims. I couldn't say. I know it was what we had in our identification jacket—these are their descriptions.

Mr. Stern. But you have no independent recollection now of their description?

Mr. Sims. No, sir.

Mr. Stern. At page 3 of your memorandum, in describing events at the School Book Depository, the memorandum states, and this occurred just after Lieutenant Day picked up the rifle and dusted it for fingerprints—the memorandum states: "Some man then called Captain Fritz, and he walked over to where the man was. This man gave Captain Fritz the name of Lee Harvey Oswald and his home address in Irving, Tex."

Would you give me something more about that—how Oswald's name came up and in what context the name was given?

Mr. Sims. Yes, sir; this man, I believe, was some supervisor there at the store, and he gave Captain Fritz Oswald's name and address.

Mr. Stern. Do you know why he gave it to him? In what connection he gave it to him?

Mr. Sims. I'm not positive about this, but I believe that Oswald was missing.

Mr. Stern. I see.

Mr. Sims. In other words, most of the employees returned back to their jobs after the assassination.

Mr. Stern. Do you know whether any other employees were missing?

Mr. Sims. No; I don't.

Mr. Stern. But as far as you know, that was the only name mentioned? Mentioned by the supervisor at the Book Depository?

Mr. Sims. As far as I know; yes.

180 Mr. Stern. Now, the search in which you participated of Oswald at 4:05 on Friday, just before the first showup—you have told us that either you or Mr. Boyd found five live rounds of .38 caliber pistol shells, and a bus transfer slip, and an identification bracelet, according to your memorandum—Oswald took his ring off and gave it to you?

Mr. Sims. That's right.

Mr. Stern. Do you recall that?

Mr. Sims. Yes, sir.

Mr. Stern. Do you remember anything else that was found on Oswald at that time?

Mr. Sims. No, sir; I don't remember anything else.

Mr. Stern. A wallet or identification card?

Mr. Sims. No, sir; that had been taken off of him.

Mr. Stern. That had been taken off of him upon his arrest at the time of his arrest?

Mr. Sims. Well, I don't know when, but he didn't have it on.

Mr. Stern. Did you say anything to him at that time about the ownership of these things, about the ownership of the pistol shells—cartridges—did you comment on that?

Mr. Sims. No, sir.

Mr. Stern. Did he say anything about it?

Mr. Sims. No, sir; there was no comment at all.

Mr. Stern. Or on the bus transfer slip?

Mr. Sims. No, sir; he was asked something about it—I don't remember what I asked or what he said.

Mr. Stern. Mr. Sims, what was your impression of Oswald during Friday and Saturday, what kind of man did he seem to you—what was his demeanor like, what impression did you get about him and the way he was conducting himself?

Mr. Sims. Well, he conducted himself, I believe, better than anyone I have ever seen during interrogation. He was calm and wasn't nervous.

Mr. Stern. He knew what questions he wanted to answer and what questions he didn't?

Mr. Sims. He had the answers ready when you got through with the questions.

Mr. Stern. Did he complain at any point about his treatment during the course of the day?

Mr. Sims. No, sir; I asked him if he wanted a cigarette, and I asked him if he wanted a drink of water or to go to the rest room and things of that nature, and I don't believe he ever accepted any of them.

Mr. Stern. But he was never complaining about his treatment?

Mr. Sims. Oh, he complained two or three times—I don't know what it was about—about not having a lawyer or something. He said he wanted a lawyer, and things of that nature.

Mr. Stern. But not about his physical treatment?

Mr. Sims. No; I believe he told us that—he was talking about his eye, and he told us that he deserved to get hit in the eye—I believe he said he deserved being hit in the eye.

Mr. Stern. Why was that?

Mr. Sims. Because the officer had a right to do that—I believe that's what he told us.

Mr. Stern. What about obtaining a lawyer, what did he say about that?

Mr. Sims. He said he wanted to obtain a lawyer. He named some lawyer up in New York.

Mr. Stern. He said that to you or to Captain Fritz in your presence?

Mr. Sims. Well, I heard it—I don't know whether he said it to me—whether he told it to Captain Fritz or he may have told it to me.

Mr. Stern. What was the response from the police officer in charge at any time he mentioned getting a lawyer?

Mr. Sims. I don't know what it was. I believe he used the telephone.

Mr. Stern. Did he seem tired to you in the course of the interrogations? Or showups?

Mr. Sims. No, sir.

181 Mr. Stern. By the time of your last contact with him, a little after 12 that night, was he still in possession of his—have all his wits about him?

Mr. Sims. Yes, sir.

Mr. Stern. Would you still describe him the way you did before?

Mr. Sims. Yes, sir; he was still alert—quick.

Mr. Stern. Calm?

Mr. Sims. Yes, sir.

Mr. Stern. Could you describe the conditions in the corridor and other areas around Captain Fritz' office and the room in which the interrogations were taking place? During the day Friday and Saturday.

Mr. Sims. Well, of course, our office—Captain Fritz' office was crowded.

Mr. Stern. With officials?

Mr. Sims. Official FBI, Secret Service, and Government officials and city officials—Texas Rangers and State officials.

Mr. Stern. Was this making interrogation more difficult?

Mr. Sims. Well, I don't know if it would or not. A number was in Captain Fritz' office during the interrogation—I believe during all of the interrogations.

Mr. Stern. Were the interrogations conducted so that one person asked all the questions, or were several people asking questions during the course of the same interrogation?

Mr. Sims. Several people conducted the interrogation. Of course, there wasn't two or three speaking at one time—one of them would speak to him and more or less ask him questions.

Mr. Stern. How about the conditions outside the offices, in the corridor, as to people who were not officials?

Mr. Sims. Well, it was a problem getting through. It was crowded.

Mr. Stern. Because of the——

Mr. Sims. Photographers and newsmen.

Mr. Stern. Were there television cameras in the corridor at that time?

Mr. Sims. Yes.

Mr. Stern. Do you know when they were brought in, were you present when they were installed?

Mr. Sims. No; I don't know when they were installed.

Mr. Stern. As I understand it, you had to bring Oswald through part of this crowd of newspapermen to get him to the interrogation room, when you brought him to and from?

Mr. Sims. No, sir; the interrogation room was all in room 317, but when we would have to go through the crowd would be to take him to a showup, and the next day when we would bring him from the jail to Captain Fritz' office, it would be a matter of 20 or 30 feet there in the hall.

Mr. Stern. And in the course of those trips through the crowd, would people try to ask him questions?

Mr. Sims. Yes, sir.

Mr. Stern. And tried to get him to make statements on the microphone?

Mr. Sims. Yes; they would.

Mr. Stern. Would he respond—do you recall—ever?

Mr. Sims. Sometimes he would and sometimes he wouldn't.

Mr. Stern. Did this have any effect on him, did it seem to irritate him in any way, or did he also take this calmly?

Mr. Sims. Well, I didn't notice anything different.

Mr. Stern. No noticeable difference?

Mr. Sims. No, sir.

Mr. Stern. Would you describe his demeanor on Saturday as being the same as it was on Friday, was he still calm and in complete self-control?

Mr. Sims. I was not around him a lot Saturday, I don't believe, but he still was calm and alert and everything.

Mr. Stern. How about his demeanor at the press conference Friday night when he was taken down to the showup room to meet the press?

Mr. Sims. Well, he was—during the press interview—he was pretty snappy. He made some quick answers—I don't know what all it involved—he denied knowledge of the President's assassination, I believe, and he denied knowledge of killing Officer Tippit.

182 Mr. Stern. And he was snappy and arrogant and hostile?

Mr. Sims. Yes; a form of arrogance, yes, sir.

Mr. Stern. But was he harassed by this or was he still calm and in control?

Mr. Sims. Well, he had control of himself; yes, sir.

Mr. Stern. So that his snappiness was, would you say, his way of expressing his feelings?

Mr. Sims. Well, I don't know—I don't know, but he was snappy at that time—at that press interview.

Mr. Stern. That's all. Thank you.

That's all I have, Mr. Ball.

I believe Mr. Ely has a question or two.

Mr. Ely. There's one thing maybe you can help us clear up now. You took—I'm referring to late Friday night or let's say early Saturday morning.

Mr. Sims. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ely. You took Oswald up to the jail office on the fourth floor—about what time?

Mr. Sims. I took him up to the jail office approximately 12:20.

Mr. Ely. And is that the last time you saw him before going home?

Mr. Sims. Yes; and we turned him over to the jailers up there on the fourth floor at 12:23.

Mr. Ely. And about what time did you leave to go home for the night?

Mr. Sims. Well, I believe—I'm not positive about this, but I believe that night Boyd and I worked later than the other officers did.

Mr. Ely. Would you have any knowledge as to whether Oswald was checked out of the jail again after 12:23?

Mr. Sims. Not to my knowledge. He was checked out later on in the day.

Mr. Ely. Right, but I'm speaking of now of sometime around 12:30 again—a quarter of 1 or something like that—you wouldn't know anything about that?

Mr. Sims. No, sir; I didn't know about that, but I checked him out later on that day. I don't know what time it was. I checked him out at 12:25 a.m.—I believe that's 10:25 a.m. is when I checked him out on the 23d.

Mr. Ely. That's all I have, Mr. Ball.

Mr. Ball. We have been attaching these as exhibits just for illustration, and do you mind if we mark it and make it part of your deposition?

Mr. Sims. No, sir; that will be fine.

Mr. Ball. All right. That will be Exhibit A of this deposition.

(Instrument marked by the reporter as "Sims Exhibit A," for identification.)

Mr. Ball. That is the written report you made to the police department of the events of the investigation on Friday, November 22, and Saturday, November 23?

Mr. Sims. Yes, sir; and the day of Oswald's murder on the 24th.

Mr. Ball. That was the 24th?

Mr. Sims. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. This will be written up by the shorthand reporter and you can read it if you wish and make any changes you wish and sign it, or you can waive your signature and we will send it on to the Commission as you have here testified as she has taken it down.

Do you have any preference on that?

Mr. Sims. No, sir.

Mr. Ball. Do you want to waive your signature?

Mr. Sims. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Fine. That will be all right. Thanks a lot.

Mr. Sims. Yes, sir.


TESTIMONY OF RICHARD M. SIMS RESUMED

The testimony of Richard M. Sims was taken at 10 a.m., on April 8, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

183 Mr. Belin. Will you stand and raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. Sims. I do.

Mr. Belin. You are Detective Richard M. Sims?

Mr. Sims. Yes, sir.

Mr. Belin. Of the Dallas Police Department?

Mr. Sims. Yes, sir.

Mr. Belin. Detective Sims, the day before yesterday you gave testimony in front of or before Joseph A. Ball?

Mr. Sims. Yes.

Mr. Belin. At that time the matter came up concerning cartridge case hulls that were found on the southeast corner of the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository Building on November 22, 1963. Do you remember that he asked about those?

Mr. Sims. Yes, sir.

Mr. Belin. Just for continuity of the record, would you tell us just how you came to see those hulls?

Mr. Sims. Yes, sir; Captain Fritz, Boyd, and I, my partner, were on the seventh floor, and someone called us to the sixth floor and said the hulls had been found.

So we took the freight elevator, I believe, or the stairs, and went to the sixth floor. Went to the southeast corner and three hulls were laying there by the window on the floor.

Mr. Belin. Did you pick up the hulls at that time?

Mr. Sims. No, sir.

Mr. Belin. What did you do?

Mr. Sims. Waited for the arrival of Lieutenant Day with the crime lab to take pictures of the scene.

Mr. Belin. Do you know who came with Lieutenant Day, if you can remember?

Mr. Sims. Yes, sir. I believe it was Studebaker. I am not positive about that.

Mr. Belin. Did you watch that area up until the time the pictures were taken?

Mr. Sims. No, sir; I didn't stay there all the time.

Mr. Belin. After the pictures were taken, what did you do?

Mr. Sims. I was over there, I believe, when they finished up with the pictures, and I picked the three hulls up and laid them on what I believed to be a box of books there near the window, and Lieutenant Day dusted them for fingerprints.

Mr. Belin. Then when your testimony was taken, did you specifically remember what you did with those hulls?

Mr. Sims. I didn't remember who brought the hulls to the city hall.

Mr. Belin. Since that time have you had an opportunity to refresh your recollection as to what happened to the hulls?

Mr. Sims. Yes, sir; I talked to Captain Fritz and E. L. Boyd, my partner, and refreshed my memory.

Mr. Belin. What was said, and what do you now say happened?

Mr. Sims. Captain Fritz told me to get the hulls after Lieutenant Day finished with them and to take possession of them.

Mr. Belin. What did you do?

Mr. Sims. I did that.

Mr. Belin. How did you take possession of them?

Mr. Sims. I placed them in an envelope and put them in my coat pocket.

Mr. Belin. Do you remember which pocket?

Mr. Sims. No, sir.

Mr. Belin. Then what did you do with them?

Mr. Sims. When we got to the city hall, I gave them to Captain Fritz in his office.

Mr. Belin. Do you remember what time that was, possibly?

184 Mr. Sims. No, sir; they took my notes the other day. I couldn't say. Whenever we arrived back at the city hall, they have what time that was.

Mr. Belin. Do you remember what the occasion was of your going down to the city hall there? Is that why you happened to go down to the city hall that afternoon?

Mr. Sims. Yes, sir; we were going to get started on Oswald.

Mr. Belin. Were you on your way down there to investigate whether or not he had any record?

Mr. Sims. I didn't know what he had at the time. I don't remember. I was driving, and captain, we stopped at the sheriff's office for a few minutes, and then went directly from there to the city hall.

Mr. Belin. Why were you going to get started on Oswald?

Mr. Sims. I don't know. Captain Fritz said go to the city hall.

Mr. Belin. Did he tell you that they were going to get started on Oswald?

Mr. Sims. No. He said go to the city hall.

Mr. Belin. And that is what you did?

Mr. Sims. Yes.

Mr. Belin. When you got to the city hall, did you go directly to Captain Fritz' office?

Mr. Sims. Yes, sir.

Mr. Belin. When you got there, was anyone inside?

Mr. Sims. Yes, sir.

Mr. Belin. Who was there?

Mr. Sims. His office was full of people.

Mr. Belin. Was Lee Oswald one of them?

Mr. Sims. Yes.

Mr. Belin. In Captain Fritz' office?

Mr. Sims. No. He was, I believe, now in the interrogation room. I am not positive. He wasn't in Captain Fritz' office.

Mr. Belin. What did you do with that envelope when you got to Captain Fritz' office?

Mr. Sims. I laid it on his desk and told him there was the hulls, or either gave it to him.

Mr. Belin. You don't remember which one?

Mr. Sims. No.

Mr. Belin. Now what caused you to remember now what you actually did with the hulls? I mean, what refreshed your recollection as to that?

Mr. Sims. Talked to Captain Fritz, and I remember we was going over to where the rifle, someone had found the rifle in the meantime, and we was walking over to where the rifle was found, and he told me to be sure and get the hulls.

Mr. Belin. What did you do then?

Mr. Sims. Well, I went over to where the rifle was found, and went back later to where the hulls were.

Mr. Belin. Were the hulls still in the location you left them for being dusted for fingerprints?

Mr. Sims. Yes, sir; they were still taking pictures.

Mr. Belin. Were they still taking pictures, or dusting them?

Mr. Sims. I hadn't picked them up. They were still, as far as I can remember, taking pictures, because Captain Fritz left two officers to preserve the scene.

Mr. Belin. When you got back, what did you do after they got through with the pictures?

Mr. Sims. When he got through with the scenery I picked the hulls up.

Mr. Belin. Was it then that he dusted them, or what?

Mr. Sims. Yes, sir.

Mr. Belin. Now, did Captain Fritz tell you that this is what you did, or Boyd tell you?

Mr. Sims. No, I remembered the other day when I testified I wasn't too sure who brought them down, and then after I talked to Captain Fritz and Boyd, I remembered definitely we were walking over to where the rifle was found, and he told me to be sure and get the hulls, so I did that.

Mr. Belin. Did Captain Fritz tell you, or the other, Day, that you were the one that brought the hulls, or did you independently remember?

185 Mr. Sims. I remembered putting them in my coat pocket.

Mr. Belin. Now, Detective Sims, just so that I can have a complete understanding of the process by which you refreshed your recollection, you talked to Captain Fritz about this after you testified here on Monday?

Mr. Sims. Yes, sir.

Mr. Belin. What did he say and what did you say, if you remember?

Mr. Sims. I told him I couldn't remember for sure about who brought the hulls up there to his office or what happened to the hulls, and then I talked to him.

Mr. Belin. What did he say?

Mr. Sims. He said, "Well, remember I told you to get the hulls and bring them to the office."

And I talked to Boyd, my partner, and he said that Captain Fritz had said that, too, so I remembered exactly about where I was when he told me this.

Mr. Belin. In other words, Captain Fritz told you on Monday, that back on November 22, he had told you to get the hulls? Is that what Captain Fritz told you on this past Monday?

Mr. Sims. No, not the past Monday. Now this was——

Mr. Belin. Well, today is Wednesday. Could it have been on Tuesday, or Monday?

Mr. Sims. I don't know if it was yesterday or Monday.

Mr. Belin. Was it either late Monday, April 6, or Tuesday, April 7?

Mr. Sims. Yes, sir.

Mr. Belin. That Captain Fritz told you that back on November 22, he had told you to get the hulls and bring them down?

Mr. Sims. Yes, sir.

Mr. Belin. And you also discussed this with Detective Boyd either on April 6 or 7?

Mr. Sims. Yes.

Mr. Belin. You are nodding your head yes?

Mr. Sims. Yes.

Mr. Belin. All right. Now, after they told you this, what is the fact as to whether you then do or do not independently remember actually putting these shells in an envelope?

Mr. Sims. I do, yes, sir; I remember putting them in an envelope.

Mr. Belin. What is the fact as to whether or not you now independently remember putting that envelope in your pocket?

Mr. Sims. I do, yes, sir.

Mr. Belin. Did Captain Fritz tell you that he saw you put them in your pocket?

Mr. Sims. No; he didn't say anything about the envelope or pocket. I remember he told me to be sure and get the hulls.

Mr. Belin. What about Boyd, did he say anything about an envelope? Or pocket?

Mr. Sims. I don't believe he did, no, sir.

Mr. Belin. Do you remember what color envelope it was?

Mr. Sims. I believe it was a brown, something brown envelope.

Mr. Belin. You are pointing to a brown manilla envelope on top of the desk here?

Mr. Sims. Yes, sir.

Mr. Belin. Do you remember how big an envelope it was?

Mr. Sims. No, sir; I don't. We have two different sizes, and I don't remember what size.

Mr. Belin. Do you remember from whom you got the envelope?

Mr. Sims. Lieutenant Day had it. When he goes to a scene, he has envelopes.

Mr. Belin. Did Lieutenant Day or anyone else see you put that envelope in your pocket?

Mr. Sims. I don't know if he saw me put the envelope in my pocket, but he was there when I took possession of the hulls.

Mr. Belin. He was?

Mr. Sims. Yes, sir; I am not sure, I don't know if the other crime lab officer was present or not. That would be Studebaker, I believe.

186 Mr. Belin. Where were these hulls when you last saw them, or saw the envelope in which they were?

Mr. Sims. In Captain Fritz' office, I believe.

Mr. Belin. Were they just laying on his desk, or in his physical possession?

Mr. Sims. In this envelope.

Mr. Belin. Was the envelope on his desk?

Mr. Sims. I don't remember if I actually gave them to him or put them there on the desk in front of him.

Mr. Belin. But he was there when you left there?

Mr. Sims. Yes.

Mr. Belin. And that is the last time you saw them?

Mr. Sims. Yes.

Mr. Belin. Do you remember whether or not you ever initialed the hulls?

Mr. Sims. I don't know if I initialed the hulls or not.

Mr. Belin. If you would have initialed the hulls, what initials would you have used?

Mr. Sims. As a rule, RMS.

Mr. Belin. RMS?

Mr. Sims. Yes, sir; but I believe I initialed the hulls or the envelope that I put them in.

Mr. Belin. Would you have initialed the outside or the inside of the hull? By that, do you understand what I mean?

Mr. Sims. Yes, sir; it all depends. I would initial the outside of the hulls, I imagine, or put a mark directly inside of the hull.

Mr. Belin. Either on the outside or directly inside the top part of the hull?

Mr. Sims. No, sir; the end.

Mr. Belin. On the end of the hull?

Mr. Sims. Yes, the spent end.

Mr. Belin. The spent end?

Mr. Sims. Yes, sir.

Mr. Belin. Anything else you can think of that might be relevant?

Mr. Sims. No, sir; but I do definitely remember him telling me about be sure and get the hulls.

Mr. Belin. You definitely remember getting the hulls?

Mr. Sims. Yes, sir; sure do.

Mr. Belin. Have you and I ever talked before you walked through the door?

Mr. Sims. No.

Mr. Belin. As soon as you walked through the door, I had you raise your right hand and you started testifying, is that correct?

Mr. Sims. Yes.

Mr. Belin. Do you want to read this deposition, or are you going to sign the other deposition?

Mr. Sims. No, sir; just go ahead.

Mr. Belin. Ship it on in?

Mr. Sims. Yes.

Mr. Belin. All right, thank you, sir.


TESTIMONY OF RICHARD S. STOVALL

The testimony of Richard S. Stovall was taken at 11 a.m., on April 3, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. Ball. Would you please stand up, Mr. Stovall, and be sworn.

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give before this Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. Stovall. I do.

Mr. Ball. Will you please state your name for the record?

187 Mr. Stovall. Richard S. Stovall.

Mr. Ball. And what is your address, please?

Mr. Stovall. 3211 Grayson Drive, Dallas.

Mr. Ball. And what is your occupation?

Mr. Stovall. Detective with the Homicide Bureau, City Police Department.

Mr. Ball. How long have you been with the Dallas Police Department?

Mr. Stovall. Approximately 10 years—it will be 10 years this May.

Mr. Ball. Now, the Commission has asked us to ask every witness to tell us about where he was born and his education and what he has done, because they are unable to see you and they would like to know something about you.

Can you tell me that, please?

Mr. Stovall. Yes, I was born here in Dallas in 1928. I was born in a frame house over here on West Page—329 West Page. I went to grade school at Winnetka Elementary School and I attended W. E. Greiner Junior High School over here on South Edgefield. I went to high school at Sunset High out on Jefferson Boulevard. After I left high school, I went to the Navy for 2 years, which was just after World War II and I quit high school, by the way, and after I got out of the Navy I came back to summer school Tech and finished.

After that, I went to work for the post office. After a few other jobs I had been with for just a short period of time—I went to work at the post office and I worked there for them for approximately 5 years, I believe; I think it was from 1949 to 1954, and in 1954 I quit the post office and went to the Police Department and I have been there since then.

Mr. Ball. You are a detective, are you?

Mr. Stovall. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. You work in plain clothes?

Mr. Stovall. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. How long have you been in this particular department?

Mr. Stovall. I have been in this department since approximately August 15, 1962—about 18 months, I guess.

Mr. Ball. What do you call your department of the Detective Bureau?

Mr. Stovall. It's Homicide-Robbery Bureau.

Mr. Ball. Do you work under Captain Fritz?

Mr. Stovall. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. On November 22, 1963, had you been assigned a special duty, in view of the President's visit to Dallas?

Mr. Stovall. Yes, sir; I had—after I got to work.

Mr. Ball. At what time was that?

Mr. Stovall. It was around 2 o'clock—I was watching television that morning and heard the deal on television.

Mr. Ball. You were not on duty at the time the President was shot?

Mr. Stovall. No, sir.

Mr. Ball. You went to work at 2 o'clock?

Mr. Stovall. Well, I was scheduled to go to work at 4 that day, I believe, but as soon as I heard that I got cleaned up and got ready for work and went on in.

Mr. Ball. Were you given an assignment as soon as you got down there?

Mr. Stovall. No, sir; I wasn't—as soon as I got there.

I got there and one of my partners, G. F. Rose, got there about the same time. We were talking to a witness that had seen all the people standing out there—he didn't actually see anything, so we didn't even take an affidavit from him because he didn't see anything.

While talking to him, the officers brought Lee Harvey Oswald into the Homicide Bureau and put him into an interrogation room we have there at the bureau. After we finished talking to this witness, we went back there and talked to him briefly.

Mr. Ball. Do you remember what was said to him and what he said to you?

Mr. Stovall. I don't recall exactly—I went in and asked him for his identification, asked him who he was and he said his name was Lee Oswald, as well as I remember. Rose and I were both in there at the time. He had his billfold and in it he had the identification of "A. Hidell," which was on a selective service card, as well as I remember.

188 Mr. Ball. That's [spelling] H-i-d-e-l-l, isn't it?

Mr. Stovall. I'm not positive on that—I believe it was [spelling] H-i-d-e-l-l, I'm not sure.

And he also had identification of Lee Harvey Oswald, and I believe that was on a Social Security card and at that time Captain Fritz opened the door to the office there and sent Rose and I to go out to this address in Irving at 2515 West Fifth Street in Irving.

That was—I don't know where the Captain got the address, but it was an address where he was supposed to be staying part of the time.

Mr. Ball. The captain had you get another man to go with you?

Mr. Stovall. Yes; we got J. P. Adamcik to go with us.

Mr. Ball. Is he a detective?

Mr. Stovall. Yes; he is.

Mr. Ball. And you did that, did you, you drove out there to Irving?

Mr. Stovall. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. The three of you?

Mr. Stovall. Yes; the three of us—we went out to the location and parked, oh, a block or half block from the house. We were supposed to meet some county officers out there.

Mr. Ball. Why were you to meet the county officers out there?

Mr. Stovall. Well, Irving is out of our jurisdiction, actually, we had to either have the Irving police or the county officers with us.

Mr. Ball. Would that be within the jurisdiction of the sheriff's office?

Mr. Stovall. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. And did you meet some county officers there?

Mr. Stovall. Yes, sir; they arrived about 30 to 45 minutes after we did—after we got out there; yes.

Mr. Ball. Did you wait for them?

Mr. Stovall. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Where did you wait for them?

Mr. Stovall. This was about one-half a block or a block from the house address.

Mr. Ball. Had you arranged to meet the county officers at this spot?

Mr. Stovall. Yes, yes, no, sir; we hadn't. We told them we were down the street about half a block. Of course when they came out there they could see us parked in the car down the street.

Mr. Ball. And what county officers did you meet out there?

Mr. Stovall. Well, there was Harry Weatherford and the other two—one name was Oxford, and I don't recall the other one's name.

Mr. Ball. How about Walthers—does Buddy Walthers sound like it?

Mr. Stovall. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. He was the third one.

Mr. Stovall. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. And then after you met them, what did you do?

Mr. Stovall. We went on down to them and drove up in front of the house and parked and got out and walked up to the front door and Adamcik and two of the officers went to the back and Rose and I went, and the other officers went to the front door and we knocked on the door, we could see some people inside the house and we could see through the front door, the door was open and the television was playing and Ruth Paine came to the door and identified herself to us. She said, "Yes; you are here about this mess that's on television."

Mr. Ball. What did you tell her about that?

Mr. Stovall. At that time we told her that we wanted to search the house. We explained to her that we did not have a search warrant but if she wanted us to get one we would, and she said, "That won't be necessary"—for us to come right on in, so we went on in the house and started to search out the house, and the part of the house that I searched was the front bedroom where Marina Oswald was staying. There are quite a few items on the list of property I have—I believe you have a copy of it. There are two that were taken out of that bedroom there—a bunch of camera equipment, for one thing.

Mr. Ball. Now, I want to go backward at the moment—have you identified that property from your list, and can you tell me what was the division of labor189 there between you officers when you were permitted to search the house, you went into the bedroom; who went with you?

Mr. Stovall. I don't believe there was anybody went with me at the time I went in. I heard—I think Rose started to the back bedroom, which would be Ruth Paine's bedroom and Ruth Paine was standing there talking to him—I could hear her talking to him and she told him that Marina suggested that he look out into the garage and so they looked and they were out of my sight then.

Mr. Ball. You heard Ruth say to Rose that Marina had suggested he look in the garage?

Mr. Stovall. Yes.

Mr. Ball. Did you hear Ruth Paine tell him why Mariana had made that suggestion—what her reasons for it were?

Mr. Stovall. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. Ball. So, you think that Rose went to the garage?

Mr. Stovall. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. What did Adamcik do?

Mr. Stovall. Well, Adamcik was out in the back. Now, before I went into the bedroom, I went to the back door and opened it and Adamcik and the two county officers came inside, but where Adamcik went, I couldn't tell you for sure. I know that he looked through some of the stuff in what I would call the den, which is adjoining the kitchen there.

Mr. Ball. Off the record.

(Discussion between Counsel Ball and the Witness Stovall off the record.)

Mr. Ball. Getting back on the record.

Mr. Stovall. Shortly after that, Rose came back in carrying this blanket, as well as I remember, it was tied at one end and the other end was open.

Mr. Ball. It was tied with what kind of material?

Mr. Stovall. It was tied with a white cord, as well as I remember.

Mr. Ball. A white what?

Mr. Stovall. A white twine—it was thicker than a kite twine that you see or use on kites—more like this they use for wrapping large packages and tying them and he showed me that end, of course, he told me——

Mr. Ball. What did he tell you?

Mr. Stovall. He told me that when he went to the garage, Marina had pointed to the blanket there and she said something to Ruth Paine and Ruth Paine told him that that was where Lee kept his rifle.

Mr. Ball. And the search that you made was in Marina's bedroom?

Mr. Stovall. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Now, do you have a list of the articles that were taken from Marina's bedroom?

Mr. Stovall. Yes, I do. I've got a list of all the articles we took from the house.

Mr. Ball. Give me that list first.

Mr. Stovall. [Witness handed list to Counsel Ball.]

Mr. Ball. This list was made up by you men on the site or after you got back into the squad car?

Mr. Stovall. No, this list was made the next day after we came back to work. This stuff was all put in boxes and put in the trunk of the car and put back in one of our interrogation rooms there.

Mr. Ball. And the next day you made a list of it, did you?

Mr. Stovall. Yes, Rose and I and there were two FBI agents that went over the property at the same time. We initialed the property, that is, we went over it—this list here.

Mr. Ball. This list here?

Mr. Stovall. Yes, this list here is a list of the property taken.

Mr. Ball. A list of the property taken from Ruth Paine's home at 2515 West Fifth Street, Irving, Tex.?

Mr. Stovall. That was on the 22d.

Mr. Ball. On the 22d at about 3:30 p.m.?

Mr. Stovall. 3:30 or 4—somewhere in there.

190 Mr. Ball. I'll go into that later, and this was the list that was made up by you and Rose and two FBI agents the next day at the police department?

Mr. Stovall. Yes.

Mr. Ball. I'd like to have this marked as "Stovall Exhibit A," and it consists of page 1 and page 2 for the deposition.

(Instrument referred to marked as "Stovall Exhibit No. A," for identification.)

Mr. Stovall. As well as I remember, Detective Senkel, S-e-n-k-e-l [spelling] and Detective Potts were both there too.

Mr. Ball. Now, look at Exhibits A-1 and A-2 for the purpose of refreshing your memory, will you mark on that those items which you have found in Marina's bedroom—do you think you remember those?

Mr. Stovall. [Marked instruments referred to.]

Mr. Ball. All right, after you check them, we will go over them and you can make an explanation for the record.

Mr. Stovall. All right, fine.

Mr. Ball. Now, since we have gone back on the record—Exhibit A-1 and A-2 have been marked—have you marked those things which were taken from Marina's room?

Mr. Stovall. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. You have an explanation to make as to certain of those, haven't you?

Mr. Stovall. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. What is that?

Mr. Stovall. On this list here—where it has 1963 Kodachrome transparent slides, you have it coded at the top, I have one brown pasteboard box filled with camera film slides. One of those, I believe, came out of the back room, which would be Ruth Paine's bedroom, and the other came out of the chest of drawers in Marina Oswald's bedroom, but I'm not sure which came from which place.

Mr. Ball. Do you know where the other articles that were on that list that have not been checked, were found?

Mr. Stovall. Some of them I do, and some of them I'm not positive on.

Mr. Ball. Did you find them, or did some other officer find those other items—those other articles?

Mr. Stovall. Well, it's hard to say. I don't remember for sure where these came from. I know that I went through the front bedroom there and when we started—I went to the back bedroom and looked at some of the stuff in there and Rose was also in there and Adamcik came in there too.

Mr. Ball. Give us, from your memory, then, the other articles that are not checked there? Take a look at them, and then tell us, if you can, from your memory, just where you found those articles.

Mr. Stovall. There was one box of Kodaslides in the single name of Ruth Hyde, another yellow box of Kodaslides, single—I'm not sure where they came from. I believe they came out of Ruth Paine's bedroom. I have listed one book from Sears Tower slide projector.

Mr. Ball. You don't make a check on it if you didn't find it in Marina's bedroom.

Mr. Stovall. No, sir; I missed one up there when we checked them.

Mr. Ball. All right, very well.

Mr. Stovall. That one, I'm not sure which bedroom it came from—I know it came from one of the bedrooms, but I don't know which one. I've got listed "one grey metal file box, which is 12 inches by 6 inches; youth pictures and literature." I've got, "One black and gray metal box 10 inches by 4 inches, letters, etc., one box brown Keystone projector." Let's stop just a minute and let me tell you about this.

These two metal boxes came out of Ruth Paine's bedroom. This Keystone projector came out of the closet in the hall. Then, I have listed, "Three brown metal boxes 12 inches by 4 inches containing phonograph records." They came out of Ruth Paine's bedroom.

I've got listed, "One Blue Check telephone index book (addresses)"—I'm not sure which bedroom that came from. And, I've got listed "One bracket (instruction191 for mounting)" and I believe that came out of Marina's bedroom—I'm not sure. The next is not checked and I'm not sure, but it is "1963 Kodachrome transparency slides," which I explained a while ago. The next one I don't have checked is "One envelope with women's book entitled 'Simplicity'". I'm not sure which bedroom that came out of. Then I've got "One Russian book."

We took several books from Marina's bedroom and I don't recall taking any books from Ruth Paine's bedroom, but I don't remember the particular ones—it's very possible I did, I can't be sure, but that's the last one I don't have checked.

Mr. Ball. Did you search any other part of the house besides Marina's bedroom?

Mr. Stovall. I assisted in searching the back bedroom. I searched the hall closet and I also looked at several things in the living room and the kitchen and the den.

Mr. Ball. Did you search the garage?

Mr. Stovall. No, sir; not that day, I did the next day.

Mr. Ball. Rose searched the garage that day?

Mr. Stovall. Yes, sir; he was out in the garage. We were going over the stuff pretty hastily at that time—that day.

Mr. Ball. How long were you there that day—how long were you there?

Mr. Stovall. I would say for approximately 2 to 2 hours, if that long.

Mr. Ball. Now, when you first went in, did Ruth Paine say anything to you about expecting you, or something of that sort?

Mr. Stovall. Yes, sir; when we first came to the door and knocked on the door, she came to the door and she says, and we identified ourselves, she said "I have been expecting you. You are here about this mess that's on television," and the "mess that's on television" at the time she was talking about was when they were talking about the President's murder.

Mr. Ball. And Oswald had been apprehended at that time?

Mr. Stovall. Yes, he had, but he had been apprehended before we got there.

Mr. Ball. Before you got there Oswald had been arrested and brought into the office?

Mr. Stovall. They had brought him into the office after I was there.

Mr. Ball. Later on, did her husband come in there—come in the house?

Mr. Stovall. Yes, I guess we had been there approximately 15 minutes when Michael Paine came out and said he had taken off from work and he said he heard about the President's murder on television and he thought he would come right on out and see if he could be of any help.

Mr. Ball. Did he say whether or not he had heard about it on radio or television?

Mr. Stovall. No, sir; I don't recall him saying where he said he heard about it—I don't recall him saying that.

Mr. Ball. Did you ask him any questions at that time?

Mr. Stovall. No, sir; I can't recall asking him anything at that time. However, I did talk to him but I don't remember what the conversation was.

Mr. Ball. Did a Mrs. Randle come in the house also?

Mr. Stovall. No, sir; she didn't. While we were loading this stuff into our car and into the sheriff's deputy's car, we were on the outside, and you know, going in and out, and she had stopped Adamcik and was talking to him and he came over and talked to me and went on back and talked to her and she said that her brother had taken Oswald to work that morning and she said that she had seen him put some kind of a package in the back seat of her brother's car. She told us it could have been a rifle—is what she said. She said it was either in a brown paper box or wrapped in brown paper.

Mr. Ball. What time did you leave there that day?

Mr. Stovall. It must have been around 5:30, because it was—I believe it was 6 when we got back to the office.

Mr. Ball. Did you bring somebody back with you?

Mr. Stovall. Yes, we brought Michael Paine—he rode with the sheriff's deputies and we brought Ruth Paine and Marina Oswald and Marina's two children.

Mr. Ball. And did you take them into the offices of the police?

192 Mr. Stovall. Yes, we did. We took them into the Homicide and Robbery Bureau.

Mr. Ball. Did you talk to them after that?

Mr. Stovall. No, sir; not that day—I didn't. We took them from there into the Forgery Bureau because there was so many people in our office up there.

Mr. Ball. Into which bureau?

Mr. Stovall. Into the Forgery Bureau—we took them from the Homicide Bureau into the Forgery Bureau because they had room in there where we could leave them.

Mr. Ball. What did you do the rest of that day?

Mr. Stovall. After that we went—we called on the phone—Rose did—trying to find this Wesley Frazier, who was this Mrs. Randle's brother to talk to him about this package that his sister said Oswald had put in his car that morning. Rose checked around and finally located him at a clinic in Irving. He called and found out where Wesley Frazier was—he called the Irving Police Department and talked to Detective McCabe out there and told him what the situation was and McCabe told us to call him back later and he would see if he couldn't get ahold of him out there and so we called him back in 15 or 20 minutes, I guess, and he said that he had the boy at the Police Department out there.

Mr. Ball. You went out there and talked to him?

Mr. Stovall. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. And you also searched their home, didn't you?

Mr. Stovall. Yes, we did.

Mr. Ball. And then you brought Linnie Randle and Wesley Frazier into Dallas and took statements from them?

Mr. Stovall. Yes, sir; we didn't take the affidavits from them, but I don't recall who did, but after the affidavits were taken, we started back to Irving with them, they also had a minister from their church with them, I believe. We started back to Irving and we got about halfway, I guess, and they called us on the radio to return to the station with the witnesses and we came back and Rose called the captain from the basement phone down there and he said he wanted to take Wesley Frazier up and run him on the polygraph, and he agreed to this and so we took him up there, and we didn't have a man on the polygraph at that time. I think he left around 9 o'clock and so we called him on the phone and he came back down and got there around 11:15 or 11:30.

Mr. Ball. And it was about 12:10 when you ran the polygraph on Frazier, wasn't it?

Mr. Stovall. No, sir; it was about 12:10 when we finished, I think, when he finished running it.

Mr. Ball. About 12:10 when you finished the polygraph on Frazier?

Mr. Stovall. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Then, what did you do?

Mr. Stovall. Then, we went back down to the basement. We had left Frazier's sister and the minister down in the basement, as well as I remember. And we took him back down there and then we went on back out to Irving and left them.

Mr. Ball. When you took the polygraph, you were present during the polygraph examination of Frazier, were you?

Mr. Stovall. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. And during this examination, did you have before you the affidavit which Frazier had made?

Mr. Stovall. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. Ball. You didn't at that time?

Mr. Stovall. No, sir.

Mr. Ball. Who did the questioning?

Mr. Stovall. R. D. Lewis, he's the polygraph operator.

I might explain that to you—in our polygraph room we've got a two-way mirror there and in another room behind it, so that the officer that is investigating the case, if he wants to, can watch the examination being given, and you can hear the questions and the answers.

Mr. Ball. Did you go home, then, after that?

Mr. Stovall. Yes, sir; after we took them back to Irving we went home.

193 Mr. Ball. The next day, you made another search of the Paine home, didn't you?

Mr. Stovall. Yes, we did.

Mr. Ball. About what time?

Mr. Stovall. Must have been around 1 o'clock, just past noon, 1:00 p.m.

Mr. Ball. And did you obtain a search warrant first this day?

Mr. Stovall. Yes, we did.

Mr. Ball. From what judge?

Mr. Stovall. From J. B. Brown, Jr.

Mr. Ball. Who went out on the search party?

Mr. Stovall. Detectives Moore, Rose, Adamcik and myself. We went by the Irving Police Department and picked up Detective McCabe and he went with us.

Mr. Ball. Moore is also a detective attached to the Dallas Police Department?

Mr. Stovall. Yes, Homicide Bureau.

Mr. Ball. And that day you arrived at the Paine home about what time?

Mr. Stovall. I would judge roughly around 1:30 or 2 o'clock.

Mr. Ball. And did you knock on the door?

Mr. Stovall. Yes, we did, and Ruth Paine, I believe was the only one there at the time.

Mr. Ball. And what did you say and what did she say to you?

Mr. Stovall. We told her that we returned, we wanted to, to make a further search of the house and we showed her the search warrant at the time, and I believe she said we didn't need that, to come on in and that we could search the house anytime we wanted to.

Mr. Ball. And did you search the house?

Mr. Stovall. Yes, we did. We mainly concentrated our search of the garage this time, because the first search of the garage had been a rather quick one, and not having been in the garage on the first search at all, and I know Rose hadn't spent much time out there because he didn't have time to on the length of time we spent at the house. So, we searched the garage and concentrated our search there.

Ruth Paine came out into the garage and I told you Ruth Paine was the only one there awhile ago—I remember Michael Paine was in the garage. I think he came up after we got there—I'm not sure—it's possible that he got there after we got there, but I don't recall, but both of them came out in this garage and showed us the stuff that belonged to Lee Oswald and Marina Oswald and showed us the stuff that belonged to them and they left.

Mr. Ball. Do you mean they left you in the garage?

Mr. Stovall. Yes, they got in the car and drove off. They left their house.

Mr. Ball. You have made a report of what you did that day?

Mr. Stovall. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. And you have that before you, Mr. Stovall?

Mr. Stovall. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Have you refreshed your memory from the report?

Mr. Stovall. I glanced over this—I've read this first and I haven't read this one.

Mr. Ball. Do you want to take some time to look over that report of your search on the 23d of November 1963?

Mr. Stovall. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. You stayed in the garage how long?

Mr. Stovall. It seems like we were in that garage about 1 or 2 hours. We might have been there longer than that. We made a thorough search of the garage.

Mr. Ball. Was there some reason you went out there the second time?

Mr. Stovall. To the garage?

Mr. Ball. No, to the Paine home on the Irving Street address?

Mr. Stovall. Yes, sir; the main reason we went out there—we wanted to make a more thorough search of the place. The first search that—we didn't actually have time to stay as long as we needed to, to check the whole house.

Mr. Ball. Were you given any specific instructions by anyone from your department as to what to look for?

194 Mr. Stovall. No, sir; not that I recall.

Mr. Ball. Now, did you make a list of what you had found and took with you on that day?

Mr. Stovall. Yes, we did.

Mr. Ball. Is this the list?

Mr. Stovall. Yes, it is.

Mr. Ball. And where was that made?

Mr. Stovall. That was made down at the city hall in the Homicide Bureau.

Mr. Ball. I would like to mark this as "Stovall Exhibit B."

(Instrument referred to marked as "Stovall Exhibit B," for identification.)

Mr. Ball. Now, at that time did you find any snapshots that appeared to be Oswald in the photograph?

Mr. Stovall. Yes, sir; Rose did, and when he looked at them, he said, "Look at this." At the time he said that—he showed us the snapshots and the negatives to me.

Mr. Ball. Did they show you what appeared to be Oswald in the snapshots?

Mr. Stovall. Yes.

Mr. Ball. He had the negatives and snapshots?

Mr. Stovall. Yes.

Mr. Ball. And he showed Oswald—what was significant about the photograph?

Mr. Stovall. He was in a standing position just outside of the house holding a rifle in one hand and he was wearing a pistol in a holster on his right hip and he was holding two papers in the other hand.

Mr. Ball. Did you take the snapshots?

Mr. Stovall. Yes, we took the snapshots.

Mr. Ball. And the negatives?

Mr. Stovall. Yes.

Mr. Ball. Where are they listed on this exhibit—this Exhibit B?

Mr. Stovall. I believe we listed them where we've got "Miscellaneous photographs and maps." There were several other photographs that we took when we were there.

Mr. Ball. They were in the garage, were they?

Mr. Stovall. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. And where were they in the garage that you saw?

Mr. Stovall. As well as I remember, they were in a brown cardboard box about, I guess, 2 feet by a foot and a half or something like that.

Mr. Ball. What was in the box with them?

Mr. Stovall. There were, as well as I remember, a few books in there and letters and papers and photographs.

Mr. Ball. Now, you also found some bags, didn't you?

Mr. Stovall. Yes, sir; there were some seabags.

Mr. Ball. What color?

Mr. Stovall. One of them was—I think both of them were a kind of an Army color—olive drab, whatever you call it.

Mr. Ball. And suitcases?

Mr. Stovall. Yes, sir; there were some blue suitcases and I think a brown one.

Mr. Ball. Made out of what kind of material?

Mr. Stovall. It appeared to be a leather material.

Mr. Ball. You said there were three—you've mentioned blue and brown, is there any other color?

Mr. Stovall. There was, as well as I remember—one of the brown ones was a leather appearing suitcase and the other was more of a—some kind of a paper or cardboard suitcase, as well as I remember that thing. It was partially torn, I mean, it had been well used and was coming apart.

Mr. Ball. And were there three?

Mr. Stovall. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. And what was the color of the third one?

Mr. Stovall. I believe it was brown also.

Mr. Ball. Leather or paper or cardboard?

Mr. Stovall. No; this was paper—it was some kind of a paper deal or cardboard.

195 Mr. Ball. Now, you also found a magazine advertisement from Klein's Department Store, Klein's in Chicago?

Mr. Stovall. Yes, sir; that was in the same box with the photographs.

Mr. Ball. Just for illustration of your testimony, I would like to have marked as an exhibit to the deposition your report of the search of November 22, 1963, as your Exhibit No. C, and your report of the search of November 23, 1963, of the Paine residence as Exhibit No. D.

(Instruments referred to marked by the reporter as "Stovall Exhibits C and D," for identification.)

Mr. Ball. You mention in there a map—what kind of map or maps did you find there?

Mr. Stovall. I don't recall just what kind of maps they were.

Mr. Ball. What time did you leave there that day?

Mr. Stovall. Must have been around 4:30 or 5, I believe.

Mr. Ball. Did Mrs. Paine or Mr. Paine say anything more to you than you have already told us?

Mr. Stovall. No, sir; as well as I recall, Mr. and Mrs. Paine were both gone from the house when we left there.

Mr. Ball. You took these materials with you that you have on this list?

Mr. Stovall. Yes.

Mr. Ball. You took them down to where?

Mr. Stovall. We took them down to our office.

Mr. Ball. And you made a list of them that day, did you?

Mr. Stovall. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Now, did you do anything else on this investigation?

Mr. Stovall. No, sir; that's all I can recall that I did on the investigation. I might add, there was—well, you have that on the list—some property.

Mr. Ball. What is that?

Mr. Stovall. When we took this identification off of Lee Oswald that had this selective service card, the name Hidell, and he also had his own identification—at the time we were in the garage we found some negatives out there that appeared that he had make a snapshot of a selective service card, and on the back of the negatives it was where the name would have been typed in—there was some stuff on the back of the negatives to block out the name when it was reprinted, and there were some selective service cards that he had printed himself out there from a negative that were blank and which appeared to be the same that he had on him at the time, on the 22d of November, that had the name of "A. Hidell" typed in on it.

Mr. Ball. Did you appear at any showups of Oswald?

Mr. Stovall. No, sir.

Mr. Ball. Were you at any of the interrogations of Oswald?

Mr. Stovall. No, sir.

Mr. Ball. Well, I think that's all, Mr. Stovall. Thank you very much for coming over here.

Mr. Stovall. Okay, thank you.

Mr. Davis. Thank you so much, Mr. Stovall, we appreciate your coming by.

Mr. Stovall. I hope it was of some help to you.


TESTIMONY OF WALTER EUGENE POTTS

The testimony of Walter Eugene Potts was taken at 11:45 a.m., on April 3, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. Ball. Will you hold up your right hand and be sworn, please?

Mr. Potts. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give196 before the Commission shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. Potts. I do.

Mr. Ball. Will you state your name, please?

Mr. Potts. Walter Eugene Potts.

Mr. Ball. What business or occupation are you in?

Mr. Potts. I am a detective with the police department, homicide, Dallas.

Mr. Ball. How long have you been with the police department in Dallas?

Mr. Potts. Since October 21, 1947.

Mr. Ball. And how long have you been with the homicide department?

Mr. Potts. June 6, 1956.

Mr. Ball. Can you tell me something about where you were born and where you were educated and what you have done since then?

Mr. Potts. I was born at Sherman, Tex., April 28, 1922, and I came to Dallas in 1924 and was raised here in Dallas, attended public schools in Dallas, graduated from this Dallas—it's Crozier Tech now, but it was Dallas Technical High School right here on Bryan Street in 1941, and when I graduated I went to work for Southwest Airmotive at Love Field, and I worked for Taycee Badgett Aviation in 1942 and 1943, in Shreveport, La., and I took an aviation cadet mental and physical down there and came back to Dallas to be inducted into the service, and I worked for Lockheed at Love Field before I went in the service, and I went in the service in July 1945. I was discharged in January 1947. I was in the 796th Military Police Battalion in Vienna, Austria, and also the 505th there.

I came back and went to work for the Taylor Publishing Co. just before I went to work for the police department. My mother and father, they still live here out on Brookfield and my sister lives here. I am one of the very few native boys in this police department down here—that's raised right here.

Mr. Ball. And on November 22, 1963, you had the day off, didn't you?

Mr. Potts. Yes, sir; that was my day off.

Mr. Ball. And did you hear on the radio the President had been shot?

Mr. Potts. Well, my wife and I had gone to the cleaners up there at Jim Miller and Military, and I suppose it was around 12:30 or a quarter to 1—around 1 o'clock and we pulled up in front of the cleaners there and Mr. Wright at the barbershop came out to the car and he said, "Have you heard about the President getting shot?"

You know, I thought he was joking and I thought he was kidding and I turned on my car radio and there it was.

We went on back home and I called the office immediately and talked to Detective Baker, he's a lieutenant now, and he said he was calling all the men back and I started to get dressed—get ready, and I told him I would be there as soon as I could, and I got dressed and got there within the hour, which was around 2 or before.

Mr. Ball. What did you do when you first got there?

Mr. Potts. When I was walking across the street there, I parked my car over at the Scottish Rite parking lot there and it's the Masonic lot and when I come across the street there at Commerce and Harwood this officer on the corner there said, "Did you hear about Tippit getting killed?" I said, "No; I didn't hear about that." He said, "Yes; I understand he got killed on a disturbance call over in Oak Cliff." That's the first I had heard about Tippit and when I got to the office, I walked in and Baker told me, "We have some people here from the Texas School Book Depository—there are four or five of them back there," and he said, "Would you go back there and take some affidavits from them?" And I said, "Sure," and I went back there and took one from this Arce, and I was in the process of taking one from this Jack Dougherty when I heard some officers coming in the door there, and I heard one of them say, "We've got the man that killed Tippit."

So, they brought him on back in while we were sitting back in the squadroom and I was sitting back there with Dougherty and Arce, and they came by and put him in the side interrogation room back there. As you walk in the door, there is an interrogation room right straight ahead and then you turn right to197 go back in the squadroom and you go on back in the squadroom, and this Mr. Dougherty looked at me and he said, "I know that man."

He said, "He works down there in that building—the Texas School Book Depository Building." He said, "I don't know his name, but I know him." So did Arce—he said, "Yes, he works down there."

So, I went ahead and took those affidavits from them—from those people and we got them notarized.

Mr. Ball. You mean Arce and Dougherty?

Mr. Potts. Arce and Dougherty. There were some more officers back there taking affidavits from some of the others—some of those other people—I don't know—you know, time and all the confusion around there, you don't exactly know what time, but my partner, Bill Senkel, and F. M. Turner—we work a three-man squad, and Bill came around and he talked to Captain Fritz, and he said "Come on, let's go. We are going out to 1026 North Beckley."

He came around and told me, he said—he asked me if I had finished taking the affidavits, and I told him, "Yes," and he said, "Captain Fritz wants you and I to go out to Oswald's or Hidell's or Oswald's room."

On his person—he must have had—he did have identification with the name Alex Hidell and Oswald—Lee Harvey Oswald, but Lt. E. L. Cunningham of the forgery bureau, who used to be a member of the homicide and robbery bureau before he made lieutenant, he went with us and we went out there.

Mr. Ball. Before you went out there, did you get a search warrant?

Mr. Potts. No; we didn't—we didn't get a search warrant at that time. We went to the location and talked to the people there.

Mr. Ball. That's Lt. E. L. Cunningham?

Mr. Potts. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. And who else?

Mr. Potts. B. L. Senkel.

Mr. Ball. And yourself?

Mr. Potts. And myself.

Mr. Ball. And you went out to where?

Mr. Potts. 1026 North Beckley.

Mr. Ball. What happened when you got there?

Mr. Potts. We got there and we talked to this Mrs.—I believe her name was Johnson.

Mr. Ball. Mrs. A. C. Johnson?

Mr. Potts. Mrs. Johnson and Mrs. Roberts.

Mr. Ball. Earlene Roberts?

Mr. Potts. Yes; and they didn't know a Lee Harvey Oswald or an Alex Hidell either one and they couldn't—they just didn't have any idea who we were talking about, so the television—it is a rooming house, and there was a television——

Mr. Ball. Did you check their registration books?

Mr. Potts. Yes, sir; we looked at the registration book—Senkel, I think, or Cunningham—well, we all looked through the registration book and there wasn't anyone by that name, and the television was on in the living room. There's an area there where the roomers sit, I guess it's the living quarters—it flashed Oswald's picture on there and one of the women, either Mrs. Roberts or Mrs. Johnson said, "That's the man that lives here. That's Mr. Lee—O. H. Lee." She said, "His room is right here right off of the living room."

Senkel or Cunningham, one of them, called the office and they said that Turner was en route with a search warrant and we waited there until 4:30 or 5 that afternoon. We got out there about 3.

Mr. Ball. You waited there in the home?

Mr. Potts. We waited there in the living quarters.

Mr. Ball. You did not go into the small room that had been rented by Lee?

Mr. Potts. No; we didn't—we didn't search the room at all until we got the warrant.

Mr. Ball. Who brought the warrant out?

Mr. Potts. Judge David Johnston.

Mr. Ball. The judge issued it, but who brought it out?

198 Mr. Potts. Well, F. M. Turner and H. M. Moore was with him, and Judge David Johnston was there, and also Assistant District Attorney Bill Alexander.

Mr. Ball. Did David L. Johnston go too, the justice of the peace?

Mr. Potts. Yes, the judge was there in person.

Mr. Ball. He was?

Mr. Potts. Yes; and also Assistant District Attorney Bill Alexander—they all came in the same car.

Mr. Ball. What did you do then?

Mr. Potts. Well, after we showed Johnson the search warrant, I think it was Johnson, we went on in the room and continued to search the room, and we took everything in there that we could find.

Mr. Ball. Would you describe the room, the appearance of the room?

Mr. Potts. Well, the room was off—as you walk into the house, the living area, the room was right there at the front door, and it was off to the left of the living room. It was a real small room. It was, oh, I don't suppose it was 6 to 8 feet wide, and maybe 10 feet long. It was a real small room. It had a half bed in there and back in the back there it had a shelf—some shelves and stuff that he had some food and stuff back there in.

Mr. Ball. How was it furnished?

Mr. Potts. Well, it just had the bed in there, and I believe, if remember, it might have had a chair—I'm not sure. So, Moore, Senkel, Cunningham and all of us—we searched that room—we took everything in there all but—there was some food on the shelf we didn't take and we went through the trash can and there was some banana peelings and stuff, but everything in there—we took everything in there we could find. We even took the pillow cases off of one of the pillows and put stuff in it. He had one of those little zipper-type bags and he had a lot of stuff in it.

Mr. Ball. What color was the bag?

Mr. Potts. I don't recall the color of that bag.

Mr. Ball. Did you bring it with you—you picked it up too, and brought it in, too?

Mr. Potts. Yes, sir; we brought everything out of the room we could find.

Mr. Ball. Were there curtains on the windows?

Mr. Potts. Yes, sir; I think so.

Mr. Ball. Hanging on rods?

Mr. Potts. If I remember correctly, I think there was curtains on the walls, but we looked behind the curtains and everything—and looked behind the blinds and everything.

Mr. Ball. Now, did you see anything of a leather holster?

Mr. Potts. A .38 leather holster—I have a list there of all the stuff we brought out of there.

Mr. Ball. Could I see that, please?

Mr. Potts. Yes, sir; you sure can. This is a list Mr. Turner and Mr. Moore and myself compiled after we brought it into the office.

Mr. Ball. You brought the stuff into the office?

Mr. Potts. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. We'll mark this as "Potts Exhibit A."

(Instrument referred to marked by the reporter as "Potts Exhibit A," for identification.)

Mr. Potts. You can have that if you would like.

Mr. Ball. This will be two exhibits—A-1 and A-2.

(The instruments referred to marked by the reporter as "Potts Exhibits A-l and A-2," for identification.)

Mr. Ball. Did you ask Mrs. Johnson whether or not she had ever seen the holster before?

Mr. Potts. I don't recall asking her that.

Mr. Ball. Did you ever ask Mrs. Earlene Roberts if she had seen the holster before?

Mr. Potts. I don't recall talking to her about that. They weren't too familiar with what was in that room. I didn't talk to them too much about it.

Mr. Ball. You recovered a Dallas city map, too, didn't you?

Mr. Potts. Yes, sir; that had some markings on it in pencil.

199 Mr. Ball. All right, go ahead.

Mr. Potts. There was a red notebook there that had a lot of names in it and addresses in it and a lot of Russian writing—and it had a diagram of the Red Square in there, I suppose, that's what it looked like to me. I suppose that's what it was, but, of course, it was all written in Russian and about half of that book I didn't understand.

Mr. Ball. You brought all of this property to the city hall?

Mr. Potts. Yes; we did.

Mr. Ball. And you made the inventory we have had marked here as "Exhibits A-1 and A-2"?

Mr. Potts. Yes; Mr. Moore and Turner and I compiled it.

Mr. Ball. Now, on that same day, did you do anything more?

Mr. Potts. Let me say—later on in the afternoon—we worked the rest of that night, up until—I don't recall what time I did leave there—it was pretty late.

Mr. Ball. I have here a document which has been marked as "Commission Exhibit No. 426." Did you find this document at the 1026 North Beckley address that day, do you remember?

Mr. Potts. I recall seeing this; yes, I do. I don't know which one of the officers picked it up.

Mr. Ball. Do you remember where it was?

Mr. Potts. No; I don't.

Mr. Ball. Do—you don't know where it was kept?

Mr. Potts. No, sir.

Mr. Ball. But was it brought from the room?

Mr. Potts. Yes; it was—here's my initial in the right hand corner, and here is Mr. Moore's.

Mr. Ball. What does that initial mean?

Mr. Potts. That's my initial, "W. E. P."

Mr. Ball. And there is "11-22-63"—what does that mean?

Mr. Potts. That means—we initial all of the evidence we bring out of there. At the time—this was going to court, and if this was brought out in court that would be my initials right there—I recovered this.

Mr. Ball. Did you initial it right there in the room?

Mr. Potts. We initialed it after we brought it to the station.

Mr. Ball. These are the initials of the men who were there with you?

Mr. Potts. That's H. M. Moore and I guess it's F. M. Turner—"F. M. T."—that's my partner. Yes, sir; for the purpose of identification in court, we initialed everything we could possibly write on.

Mr. Ball. Now, did you, on the 23d of November, take part in the investigation of either the death of Oswald or the shooting of the President?

Mr. Potts. Well, I reported to work at 10 o'clock in the morning and we worked until midnight that night—it was mostly telephone conversations—they had to put extra phones in our office. We were swamped—I talked to people from England, Canada, Peru—all over was just calling in there—just a continual call—call—call—and it kept most of us real busy answering telephone calls that day.

Mr. Ball. Did you take part in any showup of Oswald?

Mr. Potts. I believe I did—was that the 23d—at 2:15 that afternoon on the 23d, I was in on one.

Mr. Ball. Who was with you?

Mr. Potts. Mr. Senkel and I went to the jail and stood by the jail elevator and waited until the showup came down, and I was thinking there was M. G. Hall and Charlie Brown and a jailer or two that brought that showup down. They were all handcuffed together, as I recall.

Mr. Ball. Who is M. G. Hall?

Mr. Potts. He is a detective in our bureau.

Mr. Ball. And who is Charlie Brown?

Mr. Potts. Charlie Brown is also an officer assigned to the bureau. Now, I might be wrong about that, but it seems to me like they were the two that showed up then, but they might not have been.

Mr. Ball. Now, did you have anything to do with the selection of the men who were to be in the showup?

200 Mr. Potts. No, sir; all I did was just to go down to the jail door and walk with the showup out to the stage, and I stood out on the stage while the showup was conducted.

Mr. Ball. How was it conducted? Describe it.

Mr. Potts. Well, there is an anteroom before you get to the showup stage. Now, the witnesses were out front behind this transparent black nylon screen. There's a light set at an angle on the stage where the person on the stage can't see the people out in the audience. They brought them out handcuffed together and this John Thurman Horne went in first—no, that's wrong—Lujan went on first, because he would be No. 4. You see, they're got numbers above the—above them higher up there.

Mr. Ball. What is his full name?

Mr. Potts. Daniel Lujan, and then Oswald was No. 3, Knapp No. 2.

Mr. Ball. What is Knapp's full name?

Mr. Potts. David Knapp and John Thurman Horne was No. 1.

Mr. Ball. And what happened then, after they went out on the stage?

Mr. Potts. Well, Detective Leavelle—now, I don't know who the witness was that they were showing them to—the showup to.

Mr. Ball. Did you hear Leavelle?

Mr. Potts. I heard Leavelle question each one of the men. There is a black square on the floor and he tells each one of them to take one step forward and they have a microphone above, and I don't recall exactly what he asked them—It was just to get them to talk and identify themselves. We conduct them different—sometimes we ask them their names and their address and their occupation.

Mr. Ball. Did you ask the questions?

Mr. Potts. No, sir.

Mr. Ball. Did Leavelle ask the questions?

Mr. Potts. Yes; he was up there.

Mr. Ball. And, did he direct his questions to the men on the stage?

Mr. Potts. Yes; to the men on the stage.

Mr. Ball. Did you hear them?

Mr. Potts. Yes; I heard them answer.

Mr. Ball. Did Oswald speak up or not?

Mr. Potts. Well, he was complaining all during the showup. He had on a T-shirt and the rest of them didn't have on T-shirts, and he was complaining, "Well, everybody's got on a shirt and everything, and I've got a T-shirt on"—he was very belligerent about the showup. He wouldn't cooperate in any way. He was just making all kinds of commotion out there and he was doing more of the talking than anybody.

Mr. Ball. What kind of commotion was he making?

Mr. Potts. Well, he was doing a lot of talking about him being in a T-shirt, and "nobody else has got on a T-shirt and I've got on a T-shirt, this is unfair," and all that—just generally talking and after the showup was over, we just accompanied them back from the stage out to the anteroom door and just walked along with them and the elevator—took them on the elevator, and that's all we had to do with the show.

Mr. Ball. That's all you had to do with it?

Mr. Potts. Yes.

Mr. Ball. What were the appearances of the four men who came out?

Mr. Potts. They were similar in size—I didn't pick them—I don't know who did, but they were generally the same size, and, of course, the ages are a little different here.

Mr. Ball. What ages were they, do you know?

Mr. Potts. Well, Horne was 17—he was born November 6, 1945, I believe that's right.

Mr. Ball. John Thurman Horne?

Mr. Potts. Yes; and this David Edmond Knapp, he was 18. He was born October 22, 1945, and this Daniel Lujan, he was 26, and he was born February 15, 1937.

Mr. Ball. And do you have the addresses of these three men?

201 Mr. Potts. Yes; I do—now, I got the addresses off of—out of our records bureau—off of their arrest cards. I don't know whether they gave a fictitious address or not.

Mr. Ball. Yes.

Mr. Potts. Now, Horne is 2942 Ann Arbor.

Mr. Ball. 2942 Ann Arbor?

Mr. Potts. Yes.

Mr. Ball. And that's Dallas?

Mr. Potts. Yes; that's in Oak Cliff.

Mr. Ball. And what was he charged with—why was he in jail?

Mr. Potts. Traffic tickets—he had a number of traffic tickets.

Mr. Ball. Traffic tickets?

Mr. Potts. Yes; he had a stack of them—all on the same arrest date.

Mr. Ball. He did?

Mr. Potts. Yes—red lights and so on.

Mr. Ball. And what about David Knapp, what was he in for?

Mr. Potts. He was in for investigation of theft and he lived at 2922 Alabama. That's in Oak Cliff.

Mr. Ball. And he was in for investigation?

Mr. Potts. Investigation of burglary and theft.

Mr. Ball. Was he convicted?

Mr. Potts. Well, I don't know anything about that.

Mr. Ball. You don't know where he is now?

Mr. Potts. No, sir; I have never seen those men since.

Mr. Ball. You don't know whether he was convicted or not?

Mr. Potts. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. Ball. What about Lujan?

Mr. Potts. Daniel Lujan—[spelling] L-u-j-a-n, I guess that's the way you pronounce it. He was born February 15, 1937, and gave the address of 1804 Lear [spelling] L-e-a-r Street, and he was in for investigation of violation of State narcotic laws.

Mr. Ball. And was he convicted, or do you know?

Mr. Potts. I don't know.

Mr. Ball. Do you know if any one of these men has ever been convicted of a felony?

Mr. Potts. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. Ball. You know nothing about that?

Mr. Potts. I know nothing about them at all. In fact, that's the first time I have ever seen them and I suppose the last time.

Mr. Ball. Now, did you take any further part in the investigation?

Mr. Potts. That Presidential assassination—I think that's about all I done on that.

Mr. Ball. I think that one day you went out and talked to Mr. Fischer?

Mr. Potts. Yes; I talked to a boy named Fischer—on the 25th of November. Of course, you know I was off duty on the Ruby thing.

Mr. Ball. Yes; I know that.

Mr. Potts. I was at home then and I was sitting there and my wife said, "They are going to televise this transfer of Oswald." I said, "I've seen enough of that and I don't want to look at it." And she said, "We need milk and bread for lunch," and so I got up and got in the car and went to Safeway and was standing in line to check out there and a woman—well, it looked like a woman—came out and said, "Oswald has just been shot." Well, I thought that was a big joke, too, and went back out there and turned on the car radio and there that was. I came on back on duty that day.

Mr. Ball. When you went out to see Mr. Fischer——

Mr. Potts. Now, Mr. Turner had this information about this Fischer man. He and Mr. Senkel—they were in the motorcade that day. In fact, they were in the lead car.

Mr. Ball. Senkel was?

Mr. Potts. Senkel, Turner, and Chief Lumpkin were in the lead car in the motorcade, and I think Turner had gotten this information about this Fischer fellow. I had never heard about him until Turner asked me, he said, "Let's go202 out and talk to this Mr. Fischer." He said, "He is supposed to have been standing down there watching the parade go by and he saw this man in this window," and he wanted to know—we took a picture of Lee Harvey Oswald out there to see if he could identify him as being the man he saw in the window, and we went out there on the 25th of November with Lee Harvey Oswald's picture to 4007 Flamingo Street in Mesquite. That's where this Ronald Fischer lives, and he works for the county auditor's office down there. He was working that day and most of the county employees stood out on the street to watch the parade, and we took his picture out there and he said, "I can't say for sure that's the man that I saw in that window up there, but it looks like him." He said he saw him up there just a few minutes before he heard the shots fired.

Mr. Ball. Now, you made written reports of these investigations you are testifying about?

Mr. Potts. Yes.

Mr. Ball. And you have refreshed your memory from them—from your own handwritten notes?

Mr. Potts. That's right—I have.

Mr. Ball. I would like to have marked your report on your officer's duty on Friday, November 22, and also on the 23d and 25th of November, being two sheets, numbered 230 and 231, as the next exhibit, and page 3 of your report, being No. 232, being a report of your participation in the showup on November 23, 1963, at 2:15—as the next exhibit.

(Instrument referred to marked by the reporter as "Potts Exhibits B and C," respectively, for identification.)

Mr. Ball. I think that's all and I do want to thank you very much.

Mr. Potts. You are certainly welcome.

Mr. Ball. This will be written up and you can come down and read it and sign it or you can waive your signature and we will send it on to the Commission. You can tell me what you want to do.

Mr. Potts. Oh, I will sign it.

Mr. Ball. All right, then you will be notified when it is ready for you to sign.


TESTIMONY OF JOHN P. ADAMCIK

The testimony of John P. Adamcik was taken at 10 a.m., on April 3, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. Belin. Would you want to stand and raise your right hand, sir?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. Adamcik. I do.

Mr. Belin. Would you please state your name?

Mr. Adamcik. John P. Adamcik.

Mr. Belin. Where do you live?

Mr. Adamcik. I live right now at 4621 Samuell Boulevard, apartment 166.

Mr. Belin. Where is that?

Mr. Adamcik. That is over in the eastern part of Dallas.

Mr. Belin. In Dallas, Tex.?

Mr. Adamcik. It is in Dallas, Tex.

Mr. Belin. How old are you, sir?

Mr. Adamcik. I am 26.

Mr. Belin. What is your occupation?

Mr. Adamcik. I am a detective with the Dallas Police Department.

Mr. Belin. Did you go to school in Dallas?

Mr. Adamcik. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. Belin. Where did you go to high school?

Mr. Adamcik. LaGrange, Tex.

203 Mr. Belin. LaGrange High School?

Mr. Adamcik. Right.

Mr. Belin. Then what did you do?

Mr. Adamcik. I worked there in LaGrange for a short period of time, and came to Dallas and worked for Temco Aircraft Co.

Mr. Belin. What did you do for them?

Mr. Adamcik. I was an assembler.

Mr. Belin. Then what did you do?

Mr. Adamcik. Then I went in the Marine Corps for a short period of time.

Mr. Belin. How long were you in the Marine Corps?

Mr. Adamcik. I was in there approximately 2 months, got out on a hardship discharge.

Mr. Belin. You mean family?

Mr. Adamcik. Yes.

Mr. Belin. Was it an honorable discharge?

Mr. Adamcik. Yes; I got an honorable discharge—hardship discharge.

Mr. Belin. Then what did you do?

Mr. Adamcik. I went home and assisted the family, because my father was injured. That was the reason I got the discharge.

And I don't know, I got everybody going in shape which would be, I think it was probably around a year, and I came back to Dallas and got on the police department.

Mr. Belin. And you have been in the police department ever since?

Mr. Adamcik. Every since, except I took another 6-month leave of absence and I spent 6 months on active duty with the U.S. Army Reserves. After the hardship ended, I went back in the Army for 6 months.

Mr. Belin. Your position with the Dallas Police Department is now what?

Mr. Adamcik. Detective in the homicide and robbery bureau.

Mr. Belin. Are you married?

Mr. Adamcik. Yes.

Mr. Belin. Family?

Mr. Adamcik. One-month-old baby.

Mr. Belin. A month old baby. Boy or girl?

Mr. Adamcik. Boy.

Mr. Belin. You must be pretty proud?

Mr. Adamcik. Yes.

Mr. Belin. What is his name?

Mr. Adamcik. Mark Allen.

Mr. Belin. Your wife taking good care of that baby?

Mr. Adamcik. Oh, yes.

Mr. Belin. Officer, first I want to talk about November 22, 1963. Were you on duty on that date?

Mr. Adamcik. No, sir; I wasn't, not at the time pertaining to this.

Mr. Belin. Not at the time of the assassination?

Mr. Adamcik. No; I wasn't.

Mr. Belin. You were off duty?

Mr. Adamcik. I was at home, off duty.

Mr. Belin. When did you get on duty that day?

Mr. Adamcik. I was supposed to go on at 3. However, when I heard of the assassination—I was supposed to go to court at 2 o'clock, and I reported down to the courts and the courts were closed, so I immediately reported to my office, which was about 2 or so.

Mr. Belin. You were at the office the rest of the afternoon?

Mr. Adamcik. No, sir. I stayed at the office a short period of time. I wasn't there over an hour when Oswald was brought in by the arresting officers and we were asked—Detectives Stovall and Rose and myself were asked by Captain Fritz and the supervisor to go to his residence in Irving, to the Paine residence.

Mr. Belin. Did Oswald give them that address?

Mr. Adamcik. I don't know. I don't recall whether he gave them the address or they found it on his person in evidence as identification.

Mr. Belin. What was the address?

Mr. Adamcik. 2515 West Fifth Street, Irving. I don't have any idea how204 that came about at all. All I remember is that we were told to go to this address. I don't even remember whether we had a name, a definite name. We were told to go to this address, that this was the address he had on his person, or something similar to that, and we did what we were told.

Mr. Belin. About what time was this?

Mr. Adamcik. This was approximately 2:30. Could I use my report?

Mr. Belin. Sure. You take your report out and refresh your recollection.

Mr. Adamcik. I have it on here, the times mainly. This would be approximately 2:30.

Mr. Belin. All right, did you have a search warrant when you went out there?

Mr. Adamcik. No, sir; we did not.

Mr. Belin. Any particular reason why you didn't?

Mr. Adamcik. Well, at the time, we didn't know what we would find. We didn't have any idea what this address meant to us, and we were mainly going over to see who was there.

We decided if we were not allowed in the house, invited in, that we could get a search warrant later to go in, whereas at the time we didn't have any idea that that address actually had any connection with these people or with Oswald.

Mr. Belin. Who did you go with?

Mr. Adamcik. I went with Detectives Rose and Stovall, and we were met by three county officers there at the scene before we went up, because being out of the city limits of Dallas, we had three county officers go along with us, because it was in their jurisdiction.

Mr. Belin. What time did you get there?

Mr. Adamcik. I would say that it didn't take us over, it probably took us half an hour to get there. I would say it would be approximately 3 o'clock.

Mr. Belin. What did you do when you got there?

Mr. Adamcik. We waited a few minutes for the county officers to get there, and when they got there we came outside, and I went with one of the county officers or two of the county officers to the back door, and one of the county officers and Detectives Rose and Stovall went to the front door.

Mr. Belin. Then what did you do?

Mr. Adamcik. We waited until Detectives Rose and Stovall and the county officers got inside the house, which was a period of time of maybe 3 or 4 minutes when they were invited in, and they came to the back door and opened it up and asked us to come in.

Mr. Belin. Who asked you to come in?

Mr. Adamcik. Detectives Rose and Stovall, plus—because Mrs. Paine was in the house at the time standing next to them.

Mr. Belin. Then what did you do?

Mr. Adamcik. Well, we started looking around the house. I think Detectives Rose and Stovall handled most of the interrogation. They asked the questions of Mrs. Paine, and Mrs. Oswald, after we found out who they were—and I didn't do any interrogating at the time at all, I just sort of stood and listened, and we started looking around.

We asked them where Mr. Oswald was, and various things, and we looked around.

Mr. Belin. What did Mrs. Oswald say about whether or not you could see her room?

Mr. Adamcik. She never did say anything at all. In fact, she showed us where the room was and showed us several things in the room.

Mr. Belin. What did Mrs. Paine do?

Mr. Adamcik. She didn't object at all. They were really very cooperative.

Mr. Belin. Do you remember what the interrogation was? Who said what?

Mr. Adamcik. No; I don't recall. I assume it was, you know, they asked her who she was.

Mr. Belin. Did anyone ask when was the last time they saw Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. Adamcik. Oh, yes; I heard it asked.

Mr. Belin. What was the answer given, if you remember?

205 Mr. Adamcik. I don't recall.

Mr. Belin. Well, did they take you out to the garage?

Mr. Adamcik. Not me. They took two of—some of the officers. I think it was Detectives Stovall and Rose, to the garage. I think it was through Mrs. Oswald that she went ahead and told Mrs. Paine something, and Mrs. Paine drew their attention to the garage.

Mr. Belin. Did anyone say anything about a rifle?

Mr. Adamcik. I didn't hear it. I wasn't present when they went in the garage at all.

Mr. Belin. All right, what did you do?

Mr. Adamcik. Well, we stayed in the house for a good while, and we called, or one of our men called in the office, I didn't, and asked them what they should do. And of course they told them to bring the people in, that they wanted to talk to them at the office. And we told them about it and they agreed that they would go. And of course our problem was the children. There was some children, both of Mrs. Oswald's children were there, and I don't remember, I believe Mrs. Paine's were there, and we wondered where they would stay, or make some arrangements for the neighbors to keep them or not, and if I remember correctly, after we were there a while, Michael Paine, Mrs. Paine's husband came in. We have it here someplace what time it was.

Mr. Belin. Did you hear what Michael Paine said when he came in?

Mr. Adamcik. Yes. He came in about 3:45 and told his wife that he heard the President was shot and he came over to see whether he could help, and they were surprised.

Mr. Belin. When he said he heard the President was shot and he came over to see if he could help, why would he help her if the President was shot?

Mr. Adamcik. I don't know. Apparently in the affidavit, I was present.

Later on he said that his first idea when he heard that the President was shot was that Oswald could have been the one that done it, when he found out about the location, so apparently he figured that somebody would be over there questioning them.

Mr. Belin. All right, then what happened?

Mr. Adamcik. Well, we went through the house, if I remember correctly, and I believe the other detectives found some property. I know they found this blanket that was rolled up in the garage.

Mr. Belin. Were you there when they saw the blanket?

Mr. Adamcik. No; I wasn't there. I saw the blanket later.

Mr. Belin. Where was it when you first saw it?

Mr. Adamcik. I believe they took it in the house. I am pretty sure.

Mr. Belin. Had they unrolled the blanket when they took it in the house?

Mr. Adamcik. No; they had a string still tied around it. Apparently had two strings, and just one of the strings were cut.

Mr. Belin. One of the strings was cut?

Mr. Adamcik. Yes.

Mr. Belin. Who cut it, do you know?

Mr. Adamcik. I don't have any idea.

Mr. Belin. Had it been cut by an officer of the Dallas Police Department?

Mr. Adamcik. No; it definitely wasn't.

Mr. Belin. Pardon?

Mr. Adamcik. Definitely wasn't. As far as I know, it wasn't.

Mr. Belin. How was the blanket rolled, do you know, offhand, approximately?

Mr. Adamcik. It appeared to be 4 or 5 feet, maybe.

Mr. Belin. Was there anything in the blanket?

Mr. Adamcik. Not that I could see.

Mr. Belin. Was the blanket stiff or limp?

Mr. Adamcik. It was a regular wool blanket, and it wasn't fairly stiff. Just from being rolled that way, it didn't appear like it was real stiff. Just normal.

Mr. Belin. Did you see anyone carrying the blanket?

Mr. Adamcik. No; I didn't.

Mr. Belin. Did you lift the blanket up?

Mr. Adamcik. No; I never did lift the blanket up.

Mr. Belin. What happened after it was brought inside?

206 Mr. Adamcik. I don't recall then at all. I left the house after awhile and went with, I believe it was, Mrs. Paine. I went with her to one of the neighbor houses to see about the children, leaving the children there. I left and went with her.

Mr. Belin. Then what did you do?

Mr. Adamcik. Coming back, Mrs. Frazier, I believe it was, drove up to the house as I was coming back with—no, it was Mrs. Bill Randle. She (Mrs. Randle) was a neighbor there and she was driving up to the house, so I asked her whether she knew anything about what had happened, and whether she had seen Lee Oswald, and she did tell me that Lee Oswald rode to work with her brother, which is Wesley Frazier, who was staying with her, and he rode to work with him that morning.

She told me that she saw—she was up early in the morning and was drinking coffee, and saw Lee Harvey Oswald go across the front yard, across the yard carrying like a long package wrapped in something, carrying it from the Paine house to Wesley's car.

Mr. Belin. Did she say how he was carrying the package?

Mr. Adamcik. No; she didn't. I think we got an affidavit. In fact, I know we did, but I didn't take it.

Mr. Belin. Did she say about how long the package was?

Mr. Adamcik. No; she said it was long and wrapped in a paper or a box. That is all I remember her saying.

Mr. Belin. Anything else on there? Did she say anything that it was unusual for Oswald to be home at all during the week?

Mr. Adamcik. Yes; she did say that. That Oswald usually spent the weekends over there, and it was unusual for him to be there on a Thursday night and go to work with him on Friday.

Mr. Belin. Anything else you remember offhand?

Mr. Adamcik. No; I don't believe I do.

Mr. Belin. Then what did you do?

Mr. Adamcik. By then we went ahead and took these people and put them in a car. I think Mrs. Oswald took both the children. Mrs. Paine got a neighbor to keep her children and Mrs. Oswald and her two children were put in our car, the city police car, and Mrs. Paine also went with us, and Michael Paine, Mrs. Paine's husband, went with the county officer, and we proceeded to go to the city police station.

Mr. Belin. Then what?

Mr. Adamcik. We took them up to the homicide and robbery bureau office and conditions were very crowded there, so we moved up to the forgery bureau next door, and we put them in the interrogation room and waited a pretty good while.

By this time it was approximately 6 p.m., and I think they were trying to get an interpreter and question Mrs. Oswald. That was the reason for the wait.

Mr. Belin. All right.

Mr. Adamcik. Oh, yes, after talking to this Mrs. Randle, we wanted to talk to Wesley Frazier, and she said that he was at Parkland visiting his sick daddy.

So when we got back to the station, we checked with Parkland and couldn't find anybody by that name over there, so we checked with the clinic there in Irving, I believe it was, Irving Professional Center, and found out that he was there. The nurse checked the room, and he was there at the time, so some of the detectives called out there and had him placed in custody at that time so we could get an affidavit from him or question him.

Mr. Belin. All right.

Mr. Adamcik. However, I didn't go back over there and get him.

Mr. Belin. When you got down to the station, you were with Mrs. Paine?

Mr. Adamcik. Right. When we got to the station, there was Mrs. Paine, Mrs. Oswald and her two children, and Michael Paine.

Mr. Belin. Was Mrs. Oswald questioned at all or not?

Mr. Adamcik. Mrs. Oswald, yes; she was. She was questioned that same evening.

Mr. Belin. What did she say?

207 Mr. Adamcik. Well, she was questioned through an interpreter, and an affidavit was gotten from her also. I know she was showed the rifle in my presence.

I was there with Captain Fritz and myself and Detective Senkel, and the rifle was showed to her then, and she looked at it, and I remember her saying through an interpreter that it did look like the rifle, but she didn't say, but it did look like the rifle that Lee Oswald, that was in the garage previous to finding the blanket eventually.

Mr. Belin. When you say finding the blanket eventually, did she say the blanket was there?

Was it simply that when you showed the blanket to the officers, apparently she made some remark that about a week or so previous to that her husband's rifle had been wrapped in a blanket?

Mr. Adamcik. I can't remember exactly how long. I don't remember when she said the last time was she saw it.

Mr. Belin. Did Mrs. Paine indicate she ever saw the rifle there?

Mr. Adamcik. I can't remember. I took an affidavit, and I know I questioned her about the rifle, and I can't remember whether she ever said.

I would have to see the affidavit. I don't have a copy. I don't believe she said she seen the rifle. I believe that she said she saw the blanket there, but I am sure that that would be in the affidavit. That would be in the affidavit, though.

Mr. Belin. Now anything else happen there?

Mr. Adamcik. No; after Mrs. Oswald was questioned, I took an affidavit from Mrs. Paine.

Mr. Belin. Then what did you do?

Mr. Adamcik. I think this other detective, I think Senkel, probably took one from Mrs. Oswald.

Mr. Belin. You mean Marina, Lee Oswald's wife?

Mr. Adamcik. That's right, the wife.

Mr. Belin. Then what?

Mr. Adamcik. Shortly after we got through with him, with this, I believe Lee Oswald's mother came in. I don't remember whether she had been in previous and was in some other office, but I know they brought her in the same office we were in at that time, and after we got through, they were all sitting in the same room together, Mrs. Oswald, Lee's mother, and the wife, and the children, and Mrs. Paine, and Michael Paine.

Mr. Belin. Did Lee Oswald's mother say anything?

Mr. Adamcik. No; she kind of didn't say anything definite. She kind of had the feeling—I don't know how to explain it—just like this, well, she didn't realize what really happened and just couldn't quite understand it, or something. She didn't say.

Mr. Belin. What about Lee Oswald's brother?

Mr. Adamcik. To me, he was in there, too. I didn't break that up. He seemed rather calm to me. He was real calm and real collected.

Mr. Belin. Did he say anything at all?

Mr. Adamcik. Not to me, not in my presence.

Mr. Belin. All right, then, what did you do?

Mr. Adamcik. I was asked by Captain Fritz to take these people home, and he wanted me to take someone with me, and I took Lieutenant McKinney, who was one of the lieutenants in the forgery bureau. I used his car, and he went along with me to take these people home.

Mr. Belin. Then what did you do? First of all, did they say anything more on the way home about the incident or not?

Mr. Adamcik. No; I believe the only thing I definitely remember is that Marina Oswald kept saying, telling Mrs. Oswald that this was her home, and she still decided she would like to stay here. She didn't want to go back to Russia. I remember her saying that.

Mr. Belin. Do you remember someone saying that through an interpreter?

Mr. Adamcik. Right. Mrs. Paine was there, and she could interpret.

Mr. Belin. All right.

Mr. Adamcik. She wasn't real good, but she could speak enough Russian to interpret a little bit.

208 Mr. Belin. Then what did you do?

Mr. Adamcik. We took them to Irving, to the Paine house. At this time I believe Mrs. Oswald was the only other person that we took back there to the Paine house that didn't come down to the station with us originally.

Mr. Belin. You mean the mother?

Mr. Adamcik. Yes; the mother, she went back with us.

Mr. Belin. Then what did you do?

Mr. Adamcik. Well, this was fairly late. I guess it was around 10 o'clock when we got back, so apparently it was around 9 when we started taking them to Irving, and got back about 10.

We just dropped them off at the house and went on back to the office.

Mr. Belin. What did you do when you got back to the office?

Mr. Adamcik. Went to the office and I stayed there a while, and I guess it was around 11 o'clock, I mean the interrogation room in the captain's office, and spent about 15 minutes.

Mr. Belin. Why did you go in the interrogation room?

Mr. Adamcik. Well, at that time I think somebody else just finished talking to him, and I think the captain had to go see somebody or something, and nobody was in the room at the time, and he told us to go on in there for a little while and see whether we could talk to Oswald.

I think Detective Montgomery went in there with me, I am not sure.

Mr. Belin. Were you the only two in there at that time?

Mr. Adamcik. Yes; I think so. The ID Bureau came in there and either fingerprinted him or done something. When they came in there, I left. It was just a short period of time.

Mr. Belin. Do you remember any conversation that took place there?

Mr. Adamcik. No; except I asked him whether he drove a car. I did ask him that. And I remember him saying something that he didn't.

Mr. Belin. That he did or did not?

Mr. Adamcik. That he did not. And I asked him how long he was in Russia and whether he liked it there, and I remember him telling me how long he was there. I think it was two years, or something like that.

Mr. Belin. Well——

Mr. Adamcik. I don't remember exactly what he said, and he liked it okay, and that is just about it.

Mr. Belin. Did you talk about the assassination at all?

Mr. Adamcik. No; it wasn't anything at all concerned with the assassination.

Mr. Belin. Did you ask him any questions?

Mr. Adamcik. We did.

Mr. Belin. Like what kind of questions?

Mr. Adamcik. Like where were you at the time this assassination occurred; and he just wouldn't say anything.

Mr. Belin. Did he just keep quiet?

Mr. Adamcik. He just sat there and stared straight ahead.

Mr. Belin. Didn't talk at all?

Mr. Adamcik. No.

Mr. Belin. Did he ask for an attorney while you were there?

Mr. Adamcik. Not in my presence.

Mr. Belin. Did you ask him any questions about Officer Tippit's murder?

Mr. Adamcik. No; I don't believe that I did.

Mr. Belin. Anyone else there that did?

Mr. Adamcik. I didn't hear anybody.

Mr. Belin. All right, then what happened?

Mr. Adamcik. Well, I just stayed at the office until about 2 o'clock in the morning.

Mr. Belin. Ever see Oswald again?

Mr. Adamcik. I seen him being led out of the office from the interview, I believe. I didn't go down there.

Mr. Belin. What interview?

Mr. Adamcik. I think they had—I don't know whether it was an interview or some kind of press conference down in the assembly room.

Mr. Belin. When would that have been?

209 Mr. Adamcik. It would have been about midnight.

Mr. Belin. Do you know if Oswald requested it or if someone else did?

Mr. Adamcik. I don't recall.

Mr. Belin. Then what happened?

Mr. Adamcik. I stayed in the office after Captain Fritz and the other men came back. He told us to go on home and come back the next morning about 10 o'clock.

Mr. Belin. Then what happened?

Mr. Adamcik. Well, I went home, and about 10 or shortly before 10, I came in, and Captain Fritz asked Detectives Rose and Stovall; and Detective Moore—at this time he was a regular partner of Rose and Stovall—asked me, since I was there the previous day, to go along back to Mrs. Paine's house for a little more complete search.

Mr. Belin. Did you have a search warrant at this time?

Mr. Adamcik. Yes; we stopped by and got a search warrant from Judge Joe B. Brown, Jr., over in Oak Cliff, and came by his house and picked up the search warrant.

Mr. Belin. What did you do when you got to the house?

Mr. Adamcik. We got out to the house. I didn't have a search warrant. One of the other detectives did. They told us to come on in, and they were there.

I remember at the time we came in, that they were going grocery shopping, and they left and just told us to look at anything we wanted to.

Mr. Belin. The previous day had you taken anything out of the house?

Mr. Adamcik. I didn't.

Mr. Belin. Did any of the officers take anything out of the house?

Mr. Adamcik. Yes; some of the other officers did.

Mr. Belin. What did they take?

Mr. Adamcik. I don't recall. I believe they took some camera equipment. It might have been a movie camera or projector. I didn't take anything. I know they took some items.

Mr. Belin. Anything else that you remember?

Mr. Adamcik. No; there weren't too many items the first day.

Mr. Belin. What about the second day?

Mr. Adamcik. The second day we made a pretty complete search. We went mainly in the garage. We had also an Irving police officer. It was, I think, Detective McCabe from the Irving police department. And we went through the house and garage.

Mr. Belin. What did you take with you?

Mr. Adamcik. Well, we picked up—I got a list of it, also, which we turned over to the FBI, but we picked up items such as letters and pictures and oh, just a whole bunch of items.

Mr. Belin. Did you find the picture of Oswald with the rifle?

Mr. Adamcik. I didn't find it. It was found while I was back in the garage.

Mr. Belin. That was found in the garage?

Mr. Adamcik. Right.

Mr. Belin. Any comments about that at all?

Mr. Adamcik. Naturally, when somebody found it, we all looked at it, and everybody said, "That looks like the rifle that was used in the assassination."

Mr. Belin. Was Mrs. Paine or Mrs. Oswald there?

Mr. Adamcik. No. At that time they weren't there. They were grocery shopping.

Mr. Belin. Did you show the picture to them later on?

Mr. Adamcik. The picture was shown to them, but it wasn't there at the scene, and it was shown at the office, I understand.

Mr. Belin. You weren't there when it was done?

Mr. Adamcik. No; I wasn't.

Mr. Belin. Anything else?

Mr. Adamcik. Well, no other than—I didn't even begin to tell you what all we found. It was books and pictures and they found some of his stuff from the Marine Corps when he was in the Marine Corps, and a lot of Russian, I think210 they were books on the Russian language, and some vaccination certificates and stuff like that.

A lot of stuff was written in Russian, and we didn't have any idea what it said. Even the letters, a lot of them were written in Russian.

Mr. Belin. Anything else?

Mr. Adamcik. No; I don't recall anything pertaining to the search at all. I know that everything we—at the time, that we felt it was important, as far as investigation of the murder of the President and Officer Tippit was concerned, we took with us. There might have been some things we didn't take, but at the time the search was conducted, it was conducted more or less for each person at the same time, for the murder.

Mr. Belin. Was an inventory made of the items taken?

Mr. Adamcik. There was. Yes; there was, definitely.

Mr. Belin. You put that on file with the Dallas Police Department?

Mr. Adamcik. There was an inventory made, and there was receipts for all the property, and it is itemized. Everything is itemized.

Mr. Belin. Anything else that you can think of?

Mr. Adamcik. No; I know the search took a pretty good while. We didn't get back to the office until about 4 p.m., so I assume we got there probably around 11 or 11:30, and we stayed there 3 or 4 hours.

Mr. Belin. Anything else at all that you can think of that is important?

Mr. Adamcik. I don't know who found it. It was either Stovall or Rose.

Mr. Belin. Officer Adamcik, I will hand you what appears to be a document from the Dallas Police Department entitled, "Property clerk's invoice or receipt." It is an inventory. It commences with page No. 11177G through 11193G, and ask you to state if this appears to be a copy of the inventory that you picked up out on your search there?

Mr. Adamcik. Let me see if I can see all these. Yes; it is.

Mr. Belin. All right, rather than offer it in this deposition, I believe you said that—who was the senior officer out there among you, or wasn't there any?

Mr. Adamcik. Yes; there was. I was not the senior officer conducting the search. Probably Detective Rose, although I believe Detective Moore might have been previous, but since Detective Rose was there the previous day, he was spokesman for the group.

Mr. Belin. Did Stovall work more with you or with Rose?

Mr. Adamcik. With Rose.

Mr. Belin. I believe Mr. Ball is about to take the deposition of R. S. Stovall, and I think what we will do is give this inventory to Mr. Ball and let him introduce it in that deposition.

Mr. Adamcik. That first day I couldn't tell you anything because I was out of the house trying to take care of the kids.

Mr. Belin. Is there anything else you can think of, officer, that we haven't discussed here?

Mr. Adamcik. No. The only thing is, after we finished conducting the search and got back to the office, I remember the previous day we didn't take an affidavit from Michael Paine, so Detective Moore and myself went back to Irving—should be around 5 o'clock, and picked up Mr. Paine and brought him back to the office for somebody to take an affidavit from him.

Mr. Belin. Did he say anything, that you remember, when you were taking the affidavit, about the rifle or the blanket?

Mr. Adamcik. He did. I was present when he said it, and it is in the affidavit, about seeing the blanket in which the rifle was wrapped in, or he assumed it was the blanket in which the rifle was wrapped.

Mr. Belin. Did he know that it contained a rifle?

Mr. Adamcik. I don't think so. But he said he had seen it several times previous to the assassination.

Mr. Belin. Did he say anything about why he came to his wife's residence that day of the assassination?

Mr. Adamcik. Yes, sir; he did. I brought that out in the affidavit, and I remember something about him saying when he heard that the President got killed, well, knowing where it occurred and where Lee Oswald worked, and211 knowing his background, well, he said that Oswald's name came into his mind immediately.

Mr. Belin. Did he say it came into his mind?

Mr. Adamcik. He said, knowing about his background and all—I remember just about what he said—that he knew that he would be asked to be considered a suspect, and—or that we would consider him a suspect, something. He didn't say who, but the way the situation was.

Mr. Belin. Did he say what it was in his background that would make him considered to be a suspect?

Mr. Adamcik. It is in the affidavit, and I can't remember what he said. Whether he said it was because he was in Russia at one time, or something about him being a Russian citizen, or whether it was because for some other reason.

Anyway, it is in the affidavit. I can't think exactly what he said. It is worded pretty well, because he signed the affidavit and it is in his words. I can look at it.

Mr. Belin. Here is an affidavit that appears to be signed by Michael Paine. He says that he felt concern for his wife, is that correct?

Mr. Adamcik. Right; he did say that.

Mr. Belin. He says that he saw a heavy pipelike object wrapped in a blanket, tied with a string. Is that what he said?

Mr. Adamcik. That is what he said.

Mr. Belin. He said, "I picked it up to get it out of the way of the powersaw."

Mr. Adamcik. That is what he said.

Mr. Belin. Did he say he had a lot of tools, and he mentioned he picked up this object and put it out of the way of his powersaw?

Mr. Adamcik. That's right.

Mr. Belin. And it says in the affidavit he thought it was tenting equipment. Is that what he said?

Mr. Adamcik. That's right.

Mr. Belin. He says later in the affidavit that he heard the President was shot while he was at work, is that correct?

Mr. Adamcik. That's correct.

Mr. Belin. He said he heard the shots were from the Texas School Book Depository, and he said that he knew that Oswald worked there, and immediately thought of him, and wondered if he might have shot the President?

Mr. Adamcik. That is what he said.

Mr. Belin. He says he wondered if he should call the FBI. Is that what he says in the affidavit?

Mr. Adamcik. That's right, exactly.

Mr. Belin. He says he thought it unlikely that he shot the President. Did he say that he thought it was unlikely that Oswald shot the President?

Mr. Adamcik. Yes; he said that. And then he explained why he didn't call the FBI. He said he figured that—he did mention that the FBI knew about Oswald and that they would probably have contacted him and would consider him a suspect without him having to call them.

Mr. Belin. Did he say why the FBI knew about Oswald?

Mr. Adamcik. No; he didn't.

Mr. Belin. Anything else you can think of, sir?

Mr. Adamcik. No; I believe that is it. After we picked him up and took this affidavit just shortly after, I went on home and that was the end of it, until Sunday. Sunday I was off, and everything happened down there, luckily.

Mr. Belin. Luckily you were off?

Mr. Adamcik. Yes.

Mr. Belin. Sir; we want to thank you for your cooperation for coming down here. You have an opportunity to either let the deposition go directly to Washington, or you can come back and read it and sign it. You can waive the signing, or come back and read it and sign it, whatever you want to do.

Mr. Adamcik. About how long would it be before it is ready?

Mr. Belin. Several days. You want to sign, or just let her send it on to us?

Mr. Adamcik. I would kind of like to look at it.

Mr. Belin. All right, this lady will get in touch with you and you can take a look at it.

Mr. Adamcik. Okay.


212

TESTIMONY OF HENRY M. MOORE

The testimony of Henry M. Moore was taken at 11 a.m., on April 3, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. Belin. Would you stand and raise your right hand and I will swear you here.

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. Moore. I do.

Mr. Belin. Mr. Moore, would you please state your name for the reporter.

Mr. Moore. Henry M. Moore.

Mr. Belin. What is your occupation, Mr. Moore?

Mr. Moore. Police officer, city of Dallas.

Mr. Belin. You were raised in Texas?

Mr. Moore. Yes.

Mr. Belin. How old are you?

Mr. Moore. I am 39.

Mr. Belin. Married?

Mr. Moore. Yes.

Mr. Belin. Family?

Mr. Moore. Five children.

Mr. Belin. Your wife has her hands full with them?

Mr. Moore. Sure does.

Mr. Belin. Did you go to high school here in Dallas?

Mr. Moore. No; Ennis, Ennis High School.

Mr. Belin. Where is that located?

Mr. Moore. That is south of Dallas bout 35 miles.

Mr. Belin. Were you a graduate from high school?

Mr. Moore. No, I didn't graduate.

Mr. Belin. How far did you get through high school?

Mr. Moore. Eighth.

Mr. Belin. Then what did you do?

Mr. Moore. Went in the Service.

Mr. Belin. Into the Armed Services?

Mr. Moore. Yes.

Mr. Belin. Army or Navy?

Mr. Moore. Paratroopers; Army.

Mr. Belin. How long were you in the Paratroopers?

Mr. Moore. Three years.

Mr. Belin. When did you get out?

Mr. Moore. January 11, 1946.

Mr. Belin. Do you remember that day?

Mr. Moore. Very well.

Mr. Belin. Honorably discharged?

Mr. Moore. Yes.

Mr. Belin. Then what did you do after that?

Mr. Moore. Oh, I fooled around on the farm about 3 years, and then I came to Dallas.

Mr. Belin. Had you worked on the farm before you went into the Service?

Mr. Moore. Yes.

Mr. Belin. Between the time you got out of school and the time you went into the Service?

Mr. Moore. No.

Mr. Belin. You went direct from school to the Service?

Mr. Moore. Shortly afterward.

Mr. Belin. You were on the farm for a while, and then what did you do?

Mr. Moore. Came to Dallas Police Department.

Mr. Belin. What year was that?

Mr. Moore. January 31, 1949.

213 Mr. Belin. And you have been there ever since?

Mr. Moore. Yes.

Mr. Belin. What is your position there right now?

Mr. Moore. Detective.

Mr. Belin. Were you on duty on November 22 around noon?

Mr. Moore. No.

Mr. Belin. When were you to report to work that day?

Mr. Moore. Four; 4:00 p.m.

Mr. Belin. When did you report for work that day?

Mr. Moore. Shortly after the assassination, soon as I could get to town.

Mr. Belin. How shortly after?

Mr. Moore. 1 or 1:30, somewhere around there. Maybe 2.

Mr. Belin. You reported down at the main police station?

Mr. Moore. Yes, sir.

Mr. Belin. What did you do when you got there?

Mr. Moore. Well, I helped answer telephones mostly for, oh, I don't know, until the time I went out to North Beckley to search Oswald's room.

Mr. Belin. At 1026 North Beckley?

Mr. Moore. Yes; I believe that is right.

Mr. Belin. About when was that?

Mr. Moore. I am going to guess around 6 or so in the evening. The notes may show a little closer time.

Mr. Belin. Did you have a search warrant?

Mr. Moore. Yes.

Mr. Belin. Do you know who got it?

Mr. Moore. The Judge issued it. Judge David Johnston.

Mr. Belin. Did he go with you there, too?

Mr. Moore. Yes.

Mr. Belin. Who else went?

Mr. Moore. District Attorney Bill Alexander and Detective F. M. Turner.

Mr. Belin. You went to that address, and did the landlady—let me ask you this. You got to the door at 1026 North Beckley?

Mr. Moore. Yes; we met some other officers there. They were already inside.

Mr. Belin. At that time they found out that Lee Harvey Oswald lived there?

Mr. Moore. I believe they had; yes.

Mr. Belin. What did you do when you got there?

Mr. Moore. We searched his room.

Mr. Belin. Then what did you do?

Mr. Moore. Brought everything in the room to the city hall.

Mr. Belin. You made a list of what you found there?

Mr. Moore. Yes.

Mr. Belin. Anything in particular that you found there?

Mr. Moore. Yes; one map, city of Dallas map, and it had several marks located on it.

Mr. Belin. Anything else?

Mr. Moore. Personal effects, clothing, radio, and gun scabbard.

Mr. Belin. What do you mean by that?

Mr. Moore. A holster.

Mr. Belin. What kind of gun?

Mr. Moore. .38 pistol, I believe it was.

Mr. Belin. Did you find the gun itself, or just the holster?

Mr. Moore. No; just the holster. I believe they had recovered the gun from him earlier in the day.

Mr. Belin. Anything else there that you can establish?

Mr. Moore. I believe I mentioned his clothing, personal effects?

Mr. Belin. Some letters?

Mr. Moore. Yes; I'm sure there were some letters and papers.

Mr. Belin. Pamphlets?

Mr. Moore. I am not sure. I believe there was some. I am not sure, though.

Mr. Belin. I am going to hand you a copy which appears to be a photostatic copy of a property clerk's invoice or receipt. By the way, how many times did you go to 1026 North Beckley?

214 Mr. Moore. I only went one time.

Mr. Belin. Did anyone else search the room next day, or do you know?

Mr. Moore. I don't know. I don't remember. I can't see any point. We brought everything that was in the room.

Mr. Belin. You brought everything there? I am handing you pages marked on this police department, "City of Dallas property clerk's invoice or receipt No. 11194G through 11199G." Does this appear to be a copy of the inventory here?

Mr. Moore. Yes; I believe it is.

Mr. Belin. We will call that Moore Deposition Exhibit No. 1. I might state for the record that this appears to be—what was the last number I gave there—it looks like 11200G, and I might state for the record that these appear also in the Dallas police report file which is known in the President's Commission files as document 81B, pages 280–286, inclusive.

I note then on this list it states that the search warrant is dated November 23, 1963, which is 1 day later than the date that you made the search. Do you have any explanation for that?

Mr. Moore. No; I wouldn't.

Mr. Belin. Did you see the original search warrant at all, or not?

Mr. Moore. I don't know.

Mr. Belin. I also notice there appears to be included in these articles a driver's handbook of the State of Texas. Do you remember whether or not that was there?

Mr. Moore. It would be hard to say any one personal item of that nature.

Mr. Belin. In other words, you couldn't remember anything specifically there except you do know that you put down on the list, or participated in putting down on the list everything that was picked up there?

Mr. Moore. Yes.

Mr. Belin. Is there anything on this list, to the best of your knowledge, that was not picked up out at 1026 North Beckley?

Mr. Moore. No.

Mr. Belin. I noticed that there is an envelope which is marked "Envelope containing receipt for post office box 6225, Dallas, Tex., dated November 11, 1963, for the period ending December 31, 1963." Do you have any independent recollection of that being there?

Mr. Moore. No.

Mr. Belin. By that, you mean you cannot specifically recall now except you do know that someone put it down on the list as being obtained from