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Title: Warren Commission (6 of 26): Hearings Vol. VI (of 15)

Author: The President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy

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Language: English

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INVESTIGATION OF
THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY

HEARINGS
Before the President's Commission
on the Assassination
of President Kennedy

Pursuant To Executive Order 11130, an Executive order creating a Commission to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of the late President John F. Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of the man charged with the assassination and S.J. Res. 137, 88th Congress, a concurrent resolution conferring upon the Commission the power to administer oaths and affirmations, examine witnesses, receive evidence, and issue subpenas

Volume
VI

UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE

WASHINGTON, D.C.


U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE, WASHINGTON: 1964

For sale in complete sets by the Superintendent of Documents, U.S. Government Printing Office Washington, D.C., 20402


iii

PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION
ON THE
ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT KENNEDY

Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman

Biographical information on the Commissioners and the staff can be found in the Commission's Report.

A Mr. Willens also acted as liaison between the Commission and the Department of Justice.


v

Preface

The testimony of the following witnesses is contained in volume VI: Drs. Charles J. Carrico, Malcolm Oliver Perry, William Kemp Clark, Robert Nelson McClelland, Charles Rufus Baxter, Marion Thomas Jenkins, Ronald Coy Jones, Don Teel Curtis, Fouad A. Bashour, Gene Coleman Akin, Paul Conrad Peters, Adolph Hartung Giesecke, Jr., Jackie Hansen Hunt, Kenneth Everett Salyer, and Martin G. White, who attended President Kennedy at Parkland Hospital; Drs. Robert Roeder Shaw, Charles Francis Gregory, George T. Shires, and Richard Brooks Dulany, who attended Governor Connally at Parkland Hospital; Ruth Jeanette Standridge, Jane Carolyn Wester, Henrietta M. Ross, R. J. Jimison, and Darrell C. Tomlinson, who testified concerning Governor Connally's stretcher; Diana Hamilton Bowron, Margaret M. Henchliffe, and Doris Mae Nelson, who testified concerning President Kennedy's stretcher; Charles Jack Price, the Administrator of Parkland Hospital; Malcolm O. Couch, Tom C. Dillard, James Robert Underwood, James N. Crawford, Mary Ann Mitchell, Barbara Rowland, Ronald B. Fischer, Robert Edwin Edwards, Jean Lollis Hill, Austin L. Miller, Frank E. Reilly, Earle V. Brown, Royce G. Skelton, S. M. Holland, J. W. Foster, J. C. White, Joe E. Murphy, Roger D. Craig, George W. Rackley, Sr., James Elbert Romack, Lee E. Bowers, Jr., B. J. Martin, Bobby W. Hargis, Clyde A. Haygood, E. D. Brewer, D. V. Harkness, J. Herbert Sawyer, and Gerald Dalton Henslee, who were present at the assassination scene; William H. Shelley, Nat A. Pinkston, Billy Nolan Lovelady, Frankie Kaiser, Charles Douglas Givens, Troy Eugene West, Danny G. Arce, Joe R. Molina, Jack Edwin Dougherty, Eddie Piper, Victoria Elizabeth Adams, Geneva L. Hine, and Doris Burns, employees of the Texas School Book Depository; Mary E. Bledsoe, William W. Whaley, and Mrs. Earlene Roberts, who gave testimony concerning Oswald's movements following the assassination; and Domingo Benavides, and Mrs. Charles Davis, who were present in the vicinity of the Tippit crime scene.


vii

Contents

  Page
Preface v
Testimony of—
Charles J. Carrico 1
Malcolm Oliver Perry 7
William Kemp Clark 18
Robert Nelson McClelland 30
Charles Rufus Baxter 39
Marion Thomas Jenkins 45
Ronald Coy Jones 51
Don Teel Curtis 57
Fouad A. Bashour 61
Gene Coleman Akin 63
Paul Conrad Peters 68
Adolph Hartung Giesecke, Jr 72
Jackie Hansen Hunt 76
Kenneth Everett Salyer 80
Martin G. White 82
Robert Shaw 83
Charles Francis Gregory 95
George T. Shires 104
Richard Brooks Dulany 113
Ruth Jeanette Standridge 115
Jane Carolyn Wester 120
Henrietta M. Ross 123
R. J. Jimison 125
Darrell C. Tomlimson 128
Diana Hamilton Bowron 134
Margaret M. Henchliffe 139
Doris Mae Nelson 143
Charles Jack Price 148
Malcolm O. Couch 153
Tom C. Dillard 162
James Robert Underwood 167
James N. Crawford 171
Mary Ann Mitchell 175
Barbara Rowland 177
Ronald B. Fischer 191
Robert Edwin Edwards 200
Jean Lollis Hill 205
Austin L. Miller 223
Frank E. Reilly 227
Earle V. Brown 231
viiiRoyce G. Skelton 236
S. M. Holland 239
J. W. Foster 248
J. C. White 253
Joe E. Murphy 256
Roger D. Craig 260
George W. Rackley, Sr 273
James Elbert Romack 277
Lee E. Bowers, Jr 284
B. J. Martin 289
Bobby W. Hargis 293
Clyde A. Haygood 296
E. D. Brewer 302
D. V. Harkness 308
J. Herbert Sawyer 315
Gerald Dalton Henslee 325
William H. Shelley 327
Nat A. Pinkston 334
Billy Nolan Lovelady 336
Frankie Kaiser 341
Charles Douglas Givens 345
Troy Eugene West 356
Danny G. Arce 363
Joe R. Molina 368
Jack Edwin Dougherty 373
Eddie Piper 382
Victoria Elizabeth Adams 386
Geneva L. Hine 393
Doris Burns 397
Mary E. Bledsoe 400
William W. Whaley 428
Earlene Roberts 431
Domingo Benavides 444
Mrs. Charlie Virginia Davis 454

EXHIBITS INTRODUCED

Bowron Exhibit No.: Page
2 138
3 138
4 138
Brewer Exhibit A 304
Brown Exhibit A 236
Davis Exhibit No.:
1 457
2 463
3 465
Dillard Exhibit:
A 166
B 166
C 166
D 166
Dougherty Exhibit:
A 382
B 382
C 382
Edwards Exhibit A 205
Fischer Exhibit No. 1 198
Foster Exhibit:
A 249
B 253
Giesecke Exhibit No. 1 73
Gregory Exhibit No. 1 100
Hill Exhibit No. 5 223
Holland Exhibit:
A 242
ixB 242
C 243
D 245
Jenkins Exhibit No. 36 50
Jones Exhibit No. 1 55
Kaiser Exhibit:
A 344
B 344
C 344
Miller Exhibit A 227
Molina Exhibit A 368
Murphy Exhibit A 260
Nelson Exhibit No. 1 147
Piper Exhibit A 386
Price Exhibit No.
2 148
3 149
4 149
5 150
6 150
7 150
8 150
9 150
10 151
11 151
12 151
13 151
14 151
15 151
16 151
17 151
18 151
19 151
20 151
21 151
22 151
23 151
24 151
25 151
26 152
27 152
28 152
29 152
30 152
31 152
32 152
33 152
34 152
35 152
Reilly Exhibit A 231
Sawyer Exhibit:
A 318
B 322
Skelton Exhibit A 239
Tomlinson Exhibit No. 2 134
Whaley Exhibit A 430
White Exhibit A 254

1

Hearings Before the President's Commission
on the
Assassination of President Kennedy

TESTIMONY OF DR. CHARLES J. CARRICO

The testimony of Dr. Charles J. Carrico was taken at 9:30 a.m., on March 25, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. Specter. May the record show that Dr. Charles J. Carrico is present in response to a letter request for him to appear so that his deposition may be taken in connection with the proceedings of the President's Commission on the Investigation of the Assassination of President Kennedy in connection with the inquiry into all phases of that assassination, including medical care rendered at Parkland Memorial Hospital.

Dr. Carrico has been asked to testify relating to the treatment which he rendered the President at Parkland Hospital. With that preliminary statement of purpose, Dr. Carrico, would you please stand up and raise your right hand.

Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give before the President's Commission in this deposition proceeding will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Dr. Carrico. I do.

Mr. Specter. Would you state your full name for the record, please?

Dr. Carrico. Charles James Carrico.

Mr. Specter. What is your profession, sir?

Dr. Carrico. Physician.

Mr. Specter. Are you duly licensed by the State of Texas to practice medicine?

Dr. Carrico. Yes.

Mr. Specter. And would you outline briefly your educational background, please?

Dr. Carrico. I attended grade school and high school in Denton, Tex.; received a Bachelor of Science in Chemistry from North Texas State College in 1957, and an M.D. from Southwestern Medical School in 1961, and served an internship at Parkland Memorial Hospital from 1961 to 1962, and a year of Fellowship in Surgery at Southwestern, followed by my residency here.

Mr. Specter. Are you working toward any specialty training, Doctor?

Dr. Carrico. I am engaged in a general surgery residency which will qualify me for my boards in general surgery.

Mr. Specter. And what were your duties on November 22, 1963, at Parkland Hospital?

Dr. Carrico. At that time I was assigned to the elective surgery service and was in the emergency room seeing some patients for evaluation for admission to the hospital.

Mr. Specter. And what were you doing specifically around 12 o'clock noon?

Dr. Carrico. Approximately 12 noon or shortly thereafter I was in the clinic and was called to come into the emergency room to see these people and evaluate them for admission and treatment.

Mr. Specter. Were you notified that there was an emergency case on the way to the hospital at approximately 12:30?

2 Dr. Carrico. Yes.

Mr. Specter. In which President Kennedy was involved?

Dr. Carrico. At that time I was in the emergency room seeing these patients and the call was received that the President had been shot and was on his way to the hospital.

Mr. Specter. What is your best recollection as to what time it was when you received that call?

Dr. Carrico. This was probably shortly after 12:30.

Mr. Specter. And how long after that call was received did the President's party actually arrive at Parkland?

Dr. Carrico. An estimation would be 2 minutes or less.

Mr. Specter. Describe what occurred upon the arrival of the President's party at Parkland, please.

Dr. Carrico. We were in the emergency room preparing equipment in response to the call we had received when the nurse said over the intercom that they were here. Governor Connally was rolled in first and was taken to one of the trauma rooms.

Mr. Specter. And what identification was given to the trauma room to which Governor Connally was taken?

Dr. Carrico. Trauma room 2.

Mr. Specter. Who was present at the time that Governor Connally came into the emergency area?

Dr. Carrico. As I recall, Dr. Richard Dulany, myself, several of the nurses, Miss Bowron is the only one I can definitely remember. Don Curtis, oral surgery resident, and I believe Martin White, the intern, was there. These are the only people I remember being present at that time. We had already sent out a call for Dr. Baxter and Dr. Perry and the rest of the staff.

Mr. Specter. Did Dr. Dulany take any part in the treatment of President Kennedy?

Dr. Carrico. No, no, sir; he didn't.

Mr. Specter. Did Dr. Martin White take any part in the treatment of President Kennedy?

Dr. Carrico. I believe he was in there and did the—he helped Dr. Curtis with the cutdown, the initial cutdown.

Mr. Specter. What did Dr. Dulany do?

Dr. Carrico. Dr. Dulany and I initially went to see the Governor, as I said, and he stayed with the Governor while I went to attend to the President, care for the President.

Mr. Specter. Who was the first doctor to reach President Kennedy on his arrival at Parkland Hospital?

Dr. Carrico. I was.

Mr. Specter. And who else was with President Kennedy on his arrival, as best you can recollect it?

Dr. Carrico. Mrs. Kennedy was there, and there were some men in the room, who I assumed were Secret Service men; I don't know.

Mr. Specter. Can you identify any nurses who were present, in addition to Miss Bowron?

Dr. Carrico. No, I don't recall any of them.

Mr. Specter. What did you observe as to the President's condition upon his arrival?

Dr. Carrico. He was lying on a carriage, his respirations were slow, spasmodic, described as agonal.

Mr. Specter. What do you mean by "agonal" if I may interrupt you for just a moment there, Doctor?

Dr. Carrico. These are respirations seen in one who has lost the normal coordinated central control of respiration. These are spasmodic and usually reflect a terminal patient.

Mr. Specter. Would you continue to describe your observations of the President?

Dr. Carrico. His—the President's color—I don't believe I said—he was an3 ashen, bluish, grey, cyanotic, he was making no spontaneous movements, I mean, no voluntary movements at all. We opened his shirt and coat and tie and observed a small wound in the anterior lower third of the neck, listened very briefly, heard a few cardiac beats, felt the President's back, and detected no large or sucking chest wounds, and then proceeded to the examination of his head. The large skull and scalp wound had been previously observed and was inspected a little more closely. There seemed to be a 4–5 cm. area of avulsion of the scalp and the skull was fragmented and bleeding cerebral and cerebellar tissue. The pupils were inspected and seemed to be bilaterally dilated and fixed. No pulse was present, and at that time, because of the inadequate respirations and the apparent airway injury, a cuffed endotracheal tube was introduced, employing a larynzo scope. Through the larynzo scope there seemed to be some hematoma around the larynx and immediately below the larynx was seen the ragged tracheal injury. The endotracheal tube was inserted past this injury, the cuff inflated, and the tube was connected to a respirator to assist the inadequate respiration. At about this point the nurse reported that no blood pressure was obtained.

Mr. Specter. Dr. Carrico, with respect to this small wound in the anterior third of the neck which you have just described, could you be any more specific in defining the characteristics of that wound?

Dr. Carrico. This was probably a 4–7 mm. wound, almost in the midline, maybe a little to the right of the midline, and below the thyroid cartilage. It was, as I recall, rather round and there were no jagged edges or stellate lacerations.

Mr. Specter. You said you felt the President's back?

Dr. Carrico. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Would you describe in more detail just what the feeling of the back involved at that time?

Dr. Carrico. Without taking the time to roll him over and look or to wash off the blood and debris, and while his coat and shirt were still on his arms—I just placed my hands at about his beltline or a little above and by slowly moving my hands upward detected that there was no large violation of the pleural cavity.

Mr. Specter. Why did you not take the time to turn him over?

Dr. Carrico. This man was in obvious extreme distress and any more thorough inspection would have involved several minutes—well, several—considerable time which at this juncture was not available. A thorough inspection would have involved washing and cleansing the back, and this is not practical in treating an acutely injured patient. You have to determine which things, which are immediately life threatening and cope with them, before attempting to evaluate the full extent of the injuries.

Mr. Specter. Did you ever have occasion to look at the President's back?

Dr. Carrico. No, sir. Before—well, in trying to treat an acutely injured patient, you have to establish an airway, adequate ventilation and you have to establish adequate circulation. Before this was accomplished the President's cardiac activity had ceased and closed cardiac massage was instituted, which made it impossible to inspect his back.

Mr. Specter. Was any effort made to inspect the President's back after he had expired?

Dr. Carrico. No, sir.

Mr. Specter. And why was no effort made at that time to inspect his back?

Dr. Carrico. I suppose nobody really had the heart to do it.

Mr. Specter. You had begun to describe some of the action taken in order to endeavor to revive the President. Will you continue with that description, please?

Dr. Carrico. I believe we were to where the endotracheal tube had been inserted. After this, the President—his respirations were assisted by the Bennett machine. We again listened to his chest to attempt to evaluate the respirations. Breath sounds were diminished, especially on the right, despite the fact that the endotracheal tube was in place and the cuff inflated, there continued to be some leakage around the tracheal wound. For this reason Dr. Perry elected to perform a tracheotomy, and instructed some of the other physicians in the room to4 insert chest tubes, thoracotomy tubes. At the beginning of the resuscitation attempt intravenous infusions had been started using polyethylene catheters by venesection, lactated renger solution, and uncross-matched type O Rh negative bloods were administered and 300 mg. of hydrocortisone were administered. Shortly after the completion of the tracheotomy, Dr. Bashour arrived and had connected the cardiac monitor. Although I never saw evidence of cardiac activity, electrical cardiac activity, Dr. Clark stated that there was a perceptible electrical beat which shortly thereafter disappeared, and closed cardiac massage was instituted. The cardiac massage was successful in maintaining carotid and radial pulses, but the patient's state rapidly deteriorated and at approximately 1 o'clock he was pronounced dead.

Mr. Specter. What, in your opinion, was the cause of death?

Dr. Carrico. A head injury.

Mr. Specter. Have you now described all the treatment which was given to the President as best you recollect it?

Dr. Carrico. As I recall; yes, sir; that's all—I'm sorry.

Mr. Specter. Did you have any occasion or opportunity to examine the President's clothing?

Dr. Carrico. We did not do that.

Mr. Specter. And was no examination of clothing made, Dr. Carrico?

Dr. Carrico. Again, this was a matter of time. The clothes were removed by the nurses, as is the usual practice, and the full attention was devoted to trying to resuscitate the President.

Mr. Specter. On the examination of the President's back which you described that you performed, did you note any bleeding from the back?

Dr. Carrico. There was considerable blood on the cart and on his back. I could not tell if this came from his back or had fallen down from the head injury. There was also some cerebral tissue there.

Mr. Specter. What did your examination by feeling disclose with respect to whether he had any back wound?

Dr. Carrico. I did not feel any. Now, this certainly wouldn't detect a small bullet entrance. All this examination is designed to do is to establish the fact that there is no gross injury to the chest posteriorly.

Mr. Specter. Is that a routine type of examination, to ascertain whether there is a gross injury to the chest posteriorly?

Dr. Carrico. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. What did you observe as to the President's clothing with respect to the presence of a back brace, if any?

Dr. Carrico. There was, on removing the President's shirt and coat, we noted he was wearing a standard back support.

Mr. Specter. Would you describe that back support, please?

Dr. Carrico. As I recall, it was white cotton or some fibrous support, with staves, bones and if I remember buckled in the front.

Mr. Specter. How wide was it?

Dr. Carrico. How wide?

Mr. Specter. Yes, sir.

Dr. Carrico. I don't know; I didn't examine below—you see—as I recall, it came about to his umbilicus—navel area.

Mr. Specter. Was there any Ace bandage applied to the President's hips that you observed?

Dr. Carrico. No; I didn't remove his pants.

Mr. Specter. Did you have any opportunity to observe that area of his body when his pants were removed?

Dr. Carrico. I had the opportunity, but I didn't look.

Mr. Specter. What doctors were involved in the treatment of President Kennedy?

Dr. Carrico. Well, of course, Dr. Perry, Dr. Clark, Dr. Baxter, Dr. McClelland, Dr. Peters was in the room, Dr. Bashour, Dr. Ronald Jones, Dr. Curtis, I believe, Dr. White was there—initially, at least, I don't recall right offhand anyone else. There were other doctors in there, I just can't specifically remember—there were 10 or 15 people in the room before it was over.

5 Mr. Specter. Do you have an opinion, Dr. Carrico, as to the cause of the punctate wound in the President's throat?

Dr. Carrico. No; I really don't—just on the basis of what I know. We didn't make an attempt, as you know, to ascertain the track of the bullets.

Mr. Specter. I can't hear you.

Dr. Carrico. As you know, we didn't try to ascertain the track of the bullets.

Mr. Specter. And why did you not make an effort to determine the track of the bullets?

Dr. Carrico. Again, in trying to resuscitate the President, the time to do this was not available. The examination conducted was one to try to establish what life threatening situations were present and to correct these.

Mr. Specter. Was there any discussion among the doctors who attended President Kennedy as to the cause of the neck wound?

Dr. Carrico. Yes; after that afternoon.

Mr. Specter. And what conversations were there?

Dr. Carrico. As I recall, Dr. Perry and I talked and tried after—later in the afternoon to determine what exactly had happened, and we were not aware of the missile wound to the back, and postulated that this was either a tangential wound from a fragment, possibly another entrance wound. It could have been an exit wound, but we knew of no other entrance wound.

Mr. Specter. Was the wound in the neck consistent with being either an entry or exit wound, in your opinion?

Dr. Carrico. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Or, did it look to be more one than the other?

Dr. Carrico. No; it could have been either, depending on the size of the missile, the velocity of the missile, the tissues that it struck.

Mr. Specter. Dr. Carrico, assume these facts, if you will—first, that President Kennedy was struck by a 6.5-mm. missile which entered the upper-right posterior thorax, just above the scapula, being 14 cm. from the tip of the right acromion, a-c-r-o-m-i-o-n (spelling) process, and 14 cm. below the tip of the right mastoid process, and that the missile traveled between two strap muscles, proceeded through the fascia channel without violating the pleural cavity, striking the side of the trachea and exiting in the lower third of the anterior throat. Under the circumstances which I have just described to you, would the wound which you observed on the President's throat be consistent with the damage which a 6.5-mm. missile, traveling at the rate of approximately 2,000 feet per second, that being muzzle velocity, with the President being 160 to 250 feet away from the rifle, would that wound be consistent with that type of a weapon at that distance, with the missile taking the path I have just described to you?

Dr. Carrico. I certainly think it could.

Mr. Specter. And what would your thinking be as to why it could produce that result?

Dr. Carrico. I think a missile of this size, traveling in such a direction that it had very little deformity, struck nothing which would cause it to begin tumbling, and was slowed very little by passing through this relatively easy traversed planes, would not expend a great deal of energy on exit and would very likely not tumble, thus producing a small, round, even wound.

Mr. Specter. What has been your experience, if any, with gunshot wounds?

Dr. Carrico. In working in the emergency room at Parkland, we have seen a fairly good number of gunshot wounds, and with .22 and .25 caliber weapons of somewhat, possibly somewhat lower velocity but at closer range, we have seen entrance and exit wounds of almost the same size, especially the same size, when passing through superficial structures.

Mr. Specter. And what superficial structures did those missiles pass through to which you have just referred?

Dr. Carrico. The ones I was referring to in particular were through the muscles of the leg superficially.

Mr. Specter. Approximately how many missile wounds, bullet wounds, have you had an opportunity to observe in your practice, Doctor?

Dr. Carrico. I would guess 150 or 200.

Mr. Specter. Would you describe as precisely for me as possible the nature of the head wound which you observed on the President?

6 Dr. Carrico. The wound that I saw was a large gaping wound, located in the right occipitoparietal area. I would estimate to be about 5 to 7 cm. in size, more or less circular, with avulsions of the calvarium and scalp tissue. As I stated before, I believe there was shredded macerated cerebral and cerebellar tissues both in the wounds and on the fragments of the skull attached to the dura.

Mr. Specter. Did you notice any other opening in the head besides the one you have just described?

Dr. Carrico. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. Specter. Specifically, did you notice a bullet wound below the large gaping hole which you described?

Dr. Carrico. No, sir.

Mr. Specter. What is your opinion, Doctor, if you have one, as to how many bullets were involved in the injuries inflicted on the President?

Dr. Carrico. As far as I could tell, I would guess that there were two.

Mr. Specter. Prior to today, have you ever been interviewed by any representative of the Federal Government?

Dr. Carrico. Yes, sir; the Secret Service talked to us shortly after the President's death.

Mr. Specter. Do you recall who talked to you on that occasion?

Dr. Carrico. No; I don't recall his name.

Mr. Specter. What was the content of that interview?

Dr. Carrico. We spoke to him in Dr. Shires' office in the medical school concerning the President's death, mostly my part was just a statement that the written statement that I had submitted was true.

Mr. Specter. I now call your attention, Doctor, to a document heretofore identified as Commission Exhibit No. 392, to a 2-page summary which purports to bear your signature, and dated November 22, 1963, 1626 hours, and ask you first of all if that is a photostatic copy of a report which you submitted?

Dr. Carrico. Yes; it is.

Mr. Specter. And, is that your signature at the end?

Dr. Carrico. Yes.

Mr. Specter. And are the facts set forth in there true and correct?

Dr. Carrico. They are.

Mr. Specter. With respect to this notation of a ragged wound of the trachea, which is contained in your report, could you describe that in more specific detail?

Dr. Carrico. In inserting the endotracheal tube, a larynzo scope was inserted and it was noted that there was some discoloration at the lateral edge of the larynx and there appeared to be some swelling and hematoma and in looking through the chords which were partially open, a ragged tissue and some blood was seen within the trachea itself. This was the extent of what I saw.

Mr. Specter. Would that specific portion of the wound give any indication as to direction of the bullet?

Dr. Carrico. No; it wouldn't.

Mr. Specter. Was there any characteristic within the neck area to give any indication of the direction of the bullet?

Dr. Carrico. No, sir.

Mr. Specter. Did the Secret Service man whom you just described ask you any questions beyond whether the contents of your report were true?

Dr. Carrico. I can't recall any specific questions. He did ask some others and they did concern the wounds, and what we felt the wounds were from, the direction, and so forth.

Mr. Specter. And what response did you make to those inquiries?

Dr. Carrico. Essentially the same as I have here. I said I don't remember specifically.

Mr. Specter. Have you talked to any other representative of the Federal Government prior to today?

Dr. Carrico. Not in connection with this.

Mr. Specter. Well, have you talked to someone in connection with something else?

Dr. Carrico. Just some Government employment—Civil Service.

7 Mr. Specter. But the only time you talked to anyone about your treatment of President Kennedy and your observations relating to that treatment was on this one occasion with the Secret service?

Dr. Carrico. Yes; except I just recalled since that time, another Secret Service Agent—I did speak to him briefly. He asked me if I had any other information and I said "no".

Mr. Specter. Is that the total contents of that conversation?

Dr. Carrico. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Prior to the time we went on the record here before you were sworn in, did you and I have a brief conversation about the purpose of this disposition, and the general nature of the questions which I would ask you?

Dr. Carrico. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. And was the information which you gave me at that time the same as that to which you have testified here on the record?

Dr. Carrico. Yes; it was.

Mr. Specter. Have you ever changed any of your opinions regarding your treatment and observations of President Kennedy?

Dr. Carrico. Not as I recall.

Mr. Specter. By the way, Dr. Carrico, how old are you at the present time?

Dr. Carrico. Twenty-eight.

Mr. Specter. Was any bullet found in the President's body.

Dr. Carrico. Not by us.

Mr. Specter. Do you have any other notes or written record of any sort concerning your treatment of President Kennedy?

Dr. Carrico. Not concerning the treatment. I have a note I wrote to my children for them to read some day, but it doesn't concern the treatment.

Mr. Specter. What does that concern?

Dr. Carrico. It just concerns the day and how I felt about it and why it happened—maybe.

Mr. Specter. Personal observations on your part?

Dr. Carrico. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Did you participate in any of the press conferences?

Dr. Carrico. No.

Mr. Specter. Do you have anything to add which you think might be of assistance in any way to the President's Commission?

Dr. Carrico. No, sir; I don't believe I do.

Mr. Specter. Dr. Carrico, have I made available to you a letter requesting your appearance on Monday, March 30, before the Commission, and do you acknowledge receipt of that?

Dr. Carrico. I do.

Mr. Specter. And would it be possible for you to attend and testify at that time?

Dr. Carrico. I certainly can.

Mr. Specter. Washington, D.C.

Dr. Carrico. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Thank you very much, Dr. Carrico.

Dr. Carrico. Yes, sir.


TESTIMONY OF DR. MALCOLM OLIVER PERRY

The testimony of Dr. Malcolm Oliver Perry was taken at 3:25 p.m., on March 25, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. Specter. May the record show that Dr. Malcolm O. Perry is present in response to a letter request that he appear here to have his deposition taken in connection with the proceedings of the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy, which is now inquiring into all facets of the8 shooting, including the medical attention received by President Kennedy at Parkland Hospital, in which Dr. Perry participated.

With that preliminary statement of purpose, would you please stand up, Dr. Perry, and raise your right hand?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give before the President's Commission in these deposition proceedings will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Dr. Perry. I do.

Mr. Specter. All right. Would you state your full name for the record, please?

Dr. Perry. Malcolm Oliver Perry.

Mr. Specter. What is your profession, sir?

Dr. Perry. Physician and surgeon.

Mr. Specter. And how old are you?

Dr. Perry. Thirty-four.

Mr. Specter. Are you duly licensed to practice medicine in the State of Texas?

Dr. Perry. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Would you outline briefly your educational background, please?

Dr. Perry. Starting with high school?

Mr. Specter. That will be fine.

Dr. Perry. I attended high school at Allen High School and at Plano High School, graduating from the latter in 1947. I entered the University of Texas from whence I duly graduated with a degree of Bachelor of Arts in 1951. I went to Southwestern Medical School of the University of Texas for the subsequent 4 years, graduating in 1955 with a degree of Doctor of Medicine. I interned at Letterman's Army Hospital in San Francisco, and returned to a residency in surgery at Parkland Hospital in July 1958. I finished that residency in June 1962, and then returned to San Francisco and spent 1 year as additional specialization in vascular surgery. I then returned in September 1963, to Southwestern Medical School of the University of Texas as an assistant professor of surgery.

Mr. Specter. What were your duties on November 22, 1963?

Dr. Perry. Well, as is accustomed, I was at that time on two services, both a general surgery service and a vascular surgery service as a consultant and attending surgeon.

Mr. Specter. And, what were you doing specifically shortly after noontime on November 22?

Dr. Perry. Well, at the time of the incident in question, I was having lunch in the main dining room with the chief resident, Dr. Ronald Jones, in preparation for the usual Friday rounds at 1 o'clock with the residents.

Mr. Specter. And what occurred during the course of that luncheon?

Dr. Perry. Dr. Jones, as I say, and I were having lunch when an emergency call came over the speaker system for Dr. Tom Shires, who is the chief of surgery. I knew that Dr. Shires was in Galveston giving a paper and was not in the hospital, so Dr. Jones picked up the page to see if he or I could be of assistance. We were informed by the hospital operator that Mr. Kennedy had been shot and was being brought to Parkland Hospital for care.

Mr. Specter. And what action did you take as a result of learning those factors?

Dr. Perry. The dining room was located one floor up from the emergency room, so Dr. Jones and I went immediately to the emergency room to render what assistance we could.

At the time of our arrival in the emergency room, the President was already there, and as I entered trauma room No. 1, Dr. James Carrico, the surgical resident on duty, had just placed an endotracheal tube to assist respiration.

Mr. Specter. Who was present in addition to Dr. Carrico, if you recall, at that time?

Dr. Perry. I cannot with accuracy relate all the people that were there—Dr. Carrico, I saw and spoke to briefly. There were several other people in the room. There were several nurses there—I don't know at this time who they were. Mrs. Kennedy was in the room and there was a gentleman with her and9 there were several other gentlemen both in the door and right outside the door to the room. Some of them, I assume, part of the legal force.

Mr. Specter. Did you observe any other doctors in the room at that time?

Dr. Perry. No, sir; I did not. There was somebody else in the room, but I don't know who it was. I remember only Dr. Carrico—I had the impression that one of the interns was in the room, but this may be an impression gathered after the fact.

Mr. Specter. What did you observe as to the President's condition at the time you first saw him?

Dr. Perry. He was lying supine on the emergency cart directly in the center of the room under the overhead lamp. His shirt had, been removed, and intravenous infusion was being begun in the right leg, I believe. Dr. Carrico was at the head of the table attaching the oxygen apparatus to assist in respiration.

I noted there was a large wound of the right posterior parietal area in the head exposing lacerated brain. There was blood and brain tissue on the cart. The President's eyes were deviated and dilated and he was unresponsive. There was a small wound in the lower anterior third in the midline of the neck, from which blood was exuding very slowly.

Mr. Specter. Will you describe that wound as precisely as you can, please?

Dr. Perry. The wound was roughly spherical to oval in shape, not a punched-out wound, actually, nor was it particularly ragged. It was rather clean cut, but the blood obscured any detail about the edges of the wound exactly.

Mr. Specter. What was the condition of the edges of the wound, if you can recollect?

Dr. Perry. I couldn't state with certainty, due to the fact that they were covered by blood and I did not make a minute examination. I determined only the fact that there was a wound there, roughly 5 mm. in size or so.

Mr. Specter. Have you now described it as precisely as you can; that wound?

Dr. Perry. I think so.

Mr. Specter. What else, if anything, did you observe as to the condition of the President?

Dr. Perry. Spasmodic respiratory efforts were obvious, but I did not detect a pulse nor a heart beat on a very rapid examination. It was apparent that respirations were ineffective, even with the use of the endotracheal tube and oxygen. At that point I asked Dr. Carrico if this was a wound in his neck or had he begun the tracheotomy, and he said it was a wound and I, at that point, asked someone to get me a tracheotomy tray, and put on some gloves and initiated the procedure.

Mr. Specter. Now, have you described everything that you can recollect about your observations of the President before you started to work on him?

Dr. Perry. There was no evidence to that cursory examination of any other wound. I did not move the President. I did not turn him over.

Mr. Specter. Why did you not turn him over?

Dr. Perry. At that point it was necessary to attend to the emergent procedure and a satisfactory effective airway is uppermost in such a condition. If you are unable to obtain an effective airway, then the other procedures are to be of no avail.

Mr. Specter. Well, on the subject of turning him over, did you ever turn him over?

Dr. Perry. I did not.

Mr. Specter. Why didn't you turn him over after you had taken the initial action on him?

Dr. Perry. After the tracheotomy tube was in place and we were breathing for him, Dr. Clark and I had begun external cardiac massage, since we had been unable to detect a heart beat, blood pressure, or pulse. I continued with the cardiac massage while Dr. Clark examined the head wound, and he and Dr. Jenkins conferred in regard to the electrocardiogram. It was determined that none of the resuscitative measures were effective and the procedures were then abandoned.

I had no further business in the room at that point, and I left the room momentarily. I returned within a minute or so, because I had left my coat10 where I dropped it and asked one of the nurses to hand me my coat, and I left the room and went to the operating suite from there.

Mr. Specter. And did that conclude your participation in the treatment of President Kennedy?

Dr. Perry. It did.

Mr. Specter. What is your best estimate as to the time you arrived in the Emergency Room?

Dr. Perry. I really don't know the time. It was about 12:30 or so when I was eating and the call must have come thereabouts, and I didn't look at my watch at that time, nor did I have an opportunity to look at it again until after I had left the room.

Mr. Specter. What is your best estimate as to the time which elapsed from the point that you knew it was 12:30, until the time you arrived at the emergency room?

Dr. Perry. It must have been within the next few minutes. I really don't know. As I say, we were sitting there eating and I had no occasion to look at my watch again. At that time I was much too busy to consult it further.

Mr. Specter. What is your best estimate as to the time you left the emergency room after finishing your treatment and work on the President?

Dr. Perry. After I left trauma room No. 1, I went outside and washed my hands and then I retrieved my coat and I sat down for a few minutes in a chair there in the emergency room for probably 10 or 15 minutes, I suppose, and then I went from there to the operating suite to assist in the care of the Governor, so I must have left the emergency room probably somewhere around 1:15 or 1:20, I would gather.

Mr. Specter. At approximately what time was the President pronounced to be dead?

Dr. Perry. I don't know this for a fact, other than what was related to me by Dr. Clark, and he tells me that this was at 1 o'clock. Once again, I did not verify the time.

Mr. Specter. Have you described all of the efforts which were made to revive the President?

Dr. Perry. There were other procedures done that I did not do during this period. I did not describe in detail the performance of the tracheotomy. It seems that that is really not necessary at this time, unless you want it.

Mr. Specter. Will you describe it in detail, the procedures which were followed in the efforts to save the President's life?

Dr. Perry. All right. Well, to regress, then, at the time I began the tracheotomy, I made an incision right through the wound which was present in the neck in order to gain complete control of any injury in the underlying trachea.

I made a transverse incision right through this wound and carried it down to the superficial fascia, to expose the strap muscles overlying the thyroid and the trachea. There was an injury to the right lateral aspect of the trachea at the level of the external wound. The trachea was deviated slightly to the left and it was necessary to divide the strap muscles on the left side in order to gain access to the trachea. At this point, I recall, Dr. Jones right on my left was placing a catheter into a vein in the left arm because he handed me a necessary instrument which I needed in the performance of the procedure.

The wound in the trachea was then enlarged to admit a cuffed tracheotomy tube to support respiration. I noted that there was free air and blood in the superior right mediastinum.

Although I saw no injury to the lung or to the pleural space, the presence of this free blood and air in this area could be indicative of a wound of the right hemithorax, and I asked that someone put a right chest tube in for seal drainage. At the time I did not know who did this, but I have been informed that Dr. Baxter and Dr. Paul Peters inserted the chest tube and connected it to underwater drainage.

Blood transfusions and fluid transfusions were being given at this time, and through the previous venesections that had been done by Dr. Jones and Dr. Carrico.

Also, the President had received 300 mg. of Solucortef in order to support11 his adrenal glands, since it was common medical knowledge that he suffered from adrenal insufficiency.

Of course, oxygen and pressure breathing were being effected under the guidance of Dr. Jenkins and Dr. Giesecke, who were handling the anesthesia machine at the head of the table.

Dr. Bashour and Dr. Seldin, in addition to Dr. Clark, had arrived and also assisted in monitoring cardiac actions, as indicated by the oscilloscope and the cardiotachioscope.

Mr. Specter. Have you now described all of the operative procedures performed on the President?

Dr. Perry. Yes, all that I am familiar with.

Mr. Specter. Are there any doctors who participated other than those whom you have already identified in the course of your description?

Dr. Perry. Yes, sir; immediately on arriving there, and as I say, Dr. Jones and I, and I saw Dr. Carrico, and I have the impression there was another physician there, but I don't know who it was. I asked that an emergency call be placed for Dr. Kemp Clark, chief of neurosurgery, for Dr. Robert McClelland, and Dr. Charles Baxter, assistant professors of surgery. They responded immediately. I don't know how long it took them to get there, but they were probably there within the next few minutes. My first recollection of Dr. McClelland and Dr. Baxter being there was when I was doing the tracheotomy, they suddenly were there assisting me. I don't know when they came in the room, nor do I know when Dr. Clark or the other gentlemen arrived, and there must have been 10 or 12 doctors all told by then.

Mr. Specter. Are there any others whom you could identify?

Dr. Perry. Dr. Peters—I previously mentioned, Dr. Paul Peters, assistant professor of urology, Dr. Fouad Bashour, associate professor of medicine, and chief of cardiology, and Dr. Don Seldin, chief of medicine.

I mentioned Dr. M. T. Jenkins, chief of anesthesia, and Dr. Giesecke, his assistant professor of anesthesiology—that's the only people that I saw directly.

Mr. Specter. Could the first doctor whom you saw have been Dr. Don Curtis?

Dr. Perry. That's entirely possible—I don't recall.

Mr. Specter. Was Dr. Dulany there?

Dr. Perry. I have initially had the impression that Dr. Dulany was in the room when I came in there, but as I understand it, he actually was just going into the room across the hall, but he was there by the door when I came in, but I had the impression he was leaving that room, but I understand he was not, that actually he was going—just going in the room across the hall with the Governor, although I initially thought Dr. Dulany was there.

Mr. Specter. What did you observe, if anything with respect to bruising in the interior portion of the President's neck?

Dr. Perry. There was considerable hematoma in the right lateral portion of the neck and the right superior mediastinum, as I noted. As for bruising, per se, it would be difficult to describe that, since by definition, hematoma would be a collection of blood, and there was so much blood that the tissues were discolored. I did not attempt to ascertain trajectory or path of the bullet at the time, but directed myself to obtaining an adequate airway and carried my examination no further down than it was necessary to assure myself that the trachea was controlled and that there was no large vessel injury at that level.

Mr. Specter. Were there sufficient facts available to you for you to reach a conclusion as to the cause of the wound on the front side of the President's neck?

Dr. Perry. No, sir, there was not. I could not determine whether or how this was inflicted, per se, since it would require tracing the trajectory.

Mr. Specter. What did you observe as to the President's head, specifically?

Dr. Perry. I saw no injuries other than the one which I noted to you, which was a large avulsive injury of the right occipitoparietal area, but I did not do a minute examination of his head.

Mr. Specter. Did you notice a bullet hole below the large avulsed area?

Dr. Perry. No; I did not.

Mr. Specter. Dr. Perry, earlier I asked you whether you turned over the12 President at any time during the course of your treatment or examination of him, and you indicated that you had not, and I then asked you why, and you proceeded to tell me of the things that you did in sequence, as being priority items to try to save his life. Why did you not turn him over at the conclusion of those operative procedures?

Dr. Perry. Well, actually, I didn't have a specific reason, other than it had been determined that he had expired. There was nothing further that I could do and it was not my particular prerogative to make a minute examination to determine any other cause. I felt that that was a little bit out of my domain.

Mr. Specter. Did you have any occasion to examine the President's clothing to ascertain direction of the missile?

Dr. Perry. No; I did not. The only aspect of clothing that I know about—I happen to recall pushing up the brace which he had on in an attempt to feel a femoral pulse when I arrived, and I could not, but the shirt had been removed by the personnel there in the emergency room, I assume.

Mr. Specter. What did you observe as to the description of that brace?

Dr. Perry. I couldn't give you a description. I just saw and felt the lower edge of one, and I reached to feel the left femoral pulse.

Mr. Specter. Did you see whether the President was wearing any sort of an Ace bandage on the midsection of his body when his trousers were taken down?

Dr. Perry. There was evidence of an Ace bandage—I saw it sticking out from the edge on the right side, as I recall. I don't believe it was on the midsection, although it may have been. I believe it was on his right leg—his right thigh.

Mr. Specter. Do you know whether it was on the left leg and thigh as well?

Dr. Perry. No, I don't. I just saw that briefly when I was reaching for that pulse and I didn't do any examination at all of the lower trunk or lower extremities.

Mr. Specter. Did you personally make any examination by feeling, or in any other way, of the President's back?

Dr. Perry. I did not.

Mr. Specter. Did you participate in a press conference or press conferences following the death of the President?

Dr. Perry. Yes.

Mr. Specter. And when was the first of such press conferences?

Dr. Perry. I don't know the exact time, Mr. Specter. It must have been within the hour, I would say; I don't know exactly.

Mr. Specter. And who was present at that press conference by way of identifying, if you can, the members of the news media?

Dr. Perry. I have no idea. The press conference was held in classrooms 1 and 2 combined here at Parkland. The room was quite full of people. I remember noting some surprise how quickly they had put in a couple of telephones at the back. There were numerous cameras and lights, and flashbulbs, and I went there with one of the administrators, Mr. Landregan, and Dr. Kemp Clark and Mr. Hawkes, who was identified to me as being with the White House Press. I don't know—there were numerous people of the press.

Mr. Specter. What doctors appeared and spoke at that press conference?

Dr. Perry. Dr. Clark, myself, and Dr. Baxter was also there. He arrived a little bit late. I called him just before I went down and asked him and Dr. McClelland to come. I could not find Dr. McClelland. He apparently was busy with a patient at the time. I recall Dr. Baxter came in after the press conference had begun, but I don't believe he said anything. Dr. Clark and I answered the majority of the questions.

Mr. Specter. Well, what questions were asked of you and what responses did you give at that press conference?

Dr. Perry. Well, there were numerous questions asked, all the questions I cannot remember, of course. Specifically, the thing that seemed to be of most interest at that point was actually trying to get me to speculate as to direction of the bullets, the number of bullets, and the exact cause of death.

The first two questions I could not answer, and my reply to them was that I did not know, if there were one or two bullets, and I could not categorically state about the nature of the neck wound, whether it was an entrance or an13 exit wound, not having examined the President further—I could not comment on any other injuries.

As regards the cause of death, Dr. Clark and I concurred that massive brain trauma with attendant severe hemorrhage was the underlying cause of death, and then there were questions asked in regard to what we did, and I described as I have for you, although not in such detail—essentially the resuscitative measures that were taken at that time; namely, the reinfusion of a balanced salt solution of blood, Solucortef, assisting of respiration with oxygen and pressure apparatus, the tracheotomy, and the chest tubes and the monitoring with the cardiotachioscope.

Mr. Specter. Did you express a view as to what might have happened with respect to the number of bullets?

Dr. Perry. I was asked by several of the people of the press, initially, if there were one or two or more bullets, and to that, Dr. Clark and I both replied that we could not say. I was then asked if it was conceivable that it could have been caused by one bullet, and I replied in the affirmative, that I did not know, but it was conceivable.

Mr. Specter. Did you elaborate on how it could have been caused by one bullet?

Dr. Perry. I was asked if this were one bullet, how would it occur, and I said, "It is conceivable or possible that a bullet could enter and strike the spinal column and be deviated superiorly to exit from the head."

Mr. Specter. And where would that point of entry have been?

Dr. Perry. The surmise was made that if the point of entry were in the neck, how would it have happened, and that is the way I would have reconstructed it. Again, this was speculation.

Mr. Specter. Did you denominate it clearly as speculation?

Dr. Perry. I did.

Mr. Specter. Or, what could have been as opposed to what your opinion was?

Dr. Perry. I did. I said this was conceivable—this was possible, but again, Dr. Clark and I emphasized again that we did not know whether there was one or two bullets.

Mr. Specter. Did you express any view as to whether it might have been one bullet or two bullets or either, or what?

Dr. Perry. I said I did not know.

Mr. Specter. And were you asked any other questions at that press conference that you can recollect as being important at this time?

Dr. Perry. Someone did ask us about Mrs. Kennedy, and I recall that I mentioned that I did not speak to her, but that she was very composed and very quiet.

Mr. Specter. Now, were you a part of any other press conferences?

Dr. Perry. Yes; I was.

Mr. Specter. And when did the next one occur?

Dr. Perry. There were several organized press conferences that occurred in the administration suite in the hospital, Mr. Specter, and I don't know the exact times of these. There were several later that afternoon. There were some the following day, on Saturday, also held in the administrator's office, and then there were subsequent conferences in relation to the other incident that occurred on Sunday with Mr. Oswald. I don't know how many there were.

Mr. Specter. Were all these conferences set up by the administration of the hospital?

Dr. Perry. They were all conducted here. They weren't necessarily—I wouldn't say—set up by the administration. They were done here at the hospital, with one exception, of which you are aware, that I spoke with you about the gentleman that came to me when I was out of town.

Mr. Specter. Will you elaborate upon what occurred on that occasion, please?

Dr. Perry. I had taken the course of complying with the press insofar as was possible about what I could speak that was common knowledge and which had already been covered at the initial press conference. I had done that in the administrative suite or in the hospital or in the medical school under an organized situation as opposed to doing it, say, at home.

14 I left town Monday following the incident on Sunday with Oswald, in order to secure a little bit of rest for myself and my family, and approximately 36 hours later, members of the press had located me and requested an interview, which I granted, denying any photographs and the interview consisted of essentially the same thing that I had given to the previous press conference at the hospital.

Mr. Specter. Where was that interview conducted?

Dr. Perry. That was in McAllen, Tex.

Mr. Specter. In the course of all of these press conferences did you say anything other than that which you have already related you said during the course of the first press conference?

Dr. Perry. That would require a little bit of thought. I don't think in essence I said anything different. Of course, the wording certainly would have been different. I subsequently had a little bit more knowledge about the initial episode attendant of course upon my discussions with the other doctors and the writing out of our statements, knowledge which I did not have initially, which may have made subsequent statements perhaps more accurate as regards to time and people, but in essence, things that I did and things that I said that I did are essentially the same in all of these.

Mr. Specter. Dr. Perry, I now show you a group of papers heretofore identified as Commission Exhibit No. 392, and I turn to two sheets which are dated November 22, 1963, which have the name "Perry" beside the doctor and purport to bear your signature, and the time—1630 hours, 22 November 1963, and I ask you if this is a photostatic copy of the handwritten report which you submitted concerning the attention you gave to the President on the day of the assassination?

Dr. Perry. Yes; it is.

Mr. Specter. Is this your signature appearing on the second sheet?

Dr. Perry. That is my signature.

Mr. Specter. And are the facts set forth herein true and correct?

Dr. Perry. They are, to the best of my knowledge, correct.

Mr. Specter. Dr. Perry, have contents of the autopsy report conducted at Bethesda Naval Hospital been made available to you?

Dr. Perry. They have.

Mr. Specter. And are the findings in the autopsy report consistent with your observations and conclusions concerning the source and nature of the President's wounds?

Dr. Perry. Yes; they are. I think there are no discrepancies at all. I did not have that information initially, and as a result was somewhat confused about the nature of the wounds, as I noted—I could not tell whether there was one or two bullets, or from whence they came, but the findings of the autopsy report are quite compatible with those findings which I noted at the time that I saw the President.

Mr. Specter. And have you noted in the autopsy report the reference to the presence of a wound on the upper right posterior thorax just above the upper border of the scapula, being 7 by 4 mm. in oval dimension and being located 14 cm. from the tip of the right acromion process and 14 cm. below the tip of the right mastoid process?

Dr. Perry. Yes; I saw that.

Mr. Specter. Assuming that was a point of entry of a missile, which parenthetically was the opinion of the three autopsy surgeons, and assuming still further that the missile which struck the President at that spot was a 6.5-mm. jacketed bullet shot from a rifle at a distance of 166 to 250 feet, having a muzzle velocity of approximately 2,000 feet per second, and that upon entering the President's body, the bullet traveled between two strap muscles, through a fascia channel, without violating the pleural cavity, striking the trachea, causing the damage which you testified about being on the interior of the President's throat, and exited from the President's throat in the wound which you have described in the midline of his neck, would your findings and observations as to the nature of the wound on the throat be consistent with the set of facts I just presented to you?

Dr. Perry. It would be entirely compatible.

15 Mr. Specter. And what is the basis for your conclusion that the situation that I presented to you would be entirely compatible with your observations and findings?

Dr. Perry. The wound in the throat, although as I noted, I did not examine it minutely, was fairly small in nature, and an undeformed, unexpanded missile exiting at rather high speed would leave very little injury behind, since the majority of its energy was expended after it had left the tissues.

Mr. Specter. And would the hole that you observed on the President's throat then be consistent with such an exit wound?

Dr. Perry. It would. There is no way to determine from my examination as to exactly how accurately I could depict an entrance wound from an exit wound, without ascertaining the entire trajectory. Such a wound could be produced by such a missile.

Mr. Specter. Were any facts on trajectory available to you at the time of the press conferences that you described?

Dr. Perry. They were not.

Mr. Specter. In response to an earlier question which I asked you, I believe you testified that you did not have sufficient facts available initially to form an opinion as to the source or direction of the cause of the wound, did you not?

Dr. Perry. That's correct, although several leading questions were directed toward me at the various conferences.

Mr. Specter. And to those leading questions you have said here today that you responded that a number of possibilities were present as to what might have happened?

Dr. Perry. That's correct. I had no way of ascertaining, as I said, the true trajectory. Often questions were directed as to—in such a manner as this: "Doctor, is it possible that if he were in such and such a position and the bullet entered here, could it have done that?" And my reply, "Of course, if it were possible, yes, that is possible, but similarly, it did not have to be so, necessarily."

Mr. Specter. So that, from the physical characteristics which you observed in and of themselves, you could not come to any conclusive opinion?

Dr. Perry. No, sir; I could not, although I have been quoted, I think, as saying, and I might add parenthetically, out of context, without the preceding question which had been directed, as saying that such was the case, when actually, I only admitted that the possibility existed.

Mr. Specter. And in the hypothetical of the rather extended nature that I just gave you that your statement that that is consistent with what you found, is that also predicated upon the veracity of the factors, which I have asked you to assume?

Dr. Perry. That is correct, sir. I have no way to authenticate either by my own knowledge.

Mr. Specter. Has your recollection of the nature of the President's neck wound changed at any time from November 22 to the present time?

Dr. Perry. No, sir. I recall describing it initially as being between 3 and 5 cm. in size and roughly spherical in shape, not unlike a rather large puncture wound, I believe is the word I used initially.

Mr. Specter. Have you ever changed your opinion on the possible alternatives as to what could have caused the President's wounds?

Dr. Perry. No, sir; I have no knowledge even now of my own as to the cause of the wounds. All I can report on is what I saw, and the wound is that as I have described it. It could have been caused conceivably by any number of objects.

Mr. Specter. So, that the wound that you saw on the President's neck would be consistent with an exit wound under the factors that I described to you?

Dr. Perry. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Or, it might be consistent with an entry wound under a different set of factors?

Dr. Perry. That's correct, sir. I, myself, have no knowledge of that. I do not think that it is consistent, for example, with an exit wound of a large expanded bullet—voluntarily I would add that.

Mr. Specter. Well, would a jacketed 6.5-mm. bullet fit the description of a large expanded bullet?

16 Dr. Perry. No, sir; it would not.

Mr. Specter. Based on the information in the autopsy report about a 6- by 15-mm. hole in the lower part of the President's skull on the right side in conjunction with the large part of the skull of the President which you observed to be missing, would you have an opinion as to the source of the missile which inflicted those wounds?

Dr. Perry. Since I did not see the initial wound which you mentioned, the smaller one, and only saw the large avulsive wound of the head and the scalp, there is no way for me to determine from whence it came.

Mr. Specter. Well, if you assume the presence of the first small wound, taking as a fact that there was such a wound, now, would that present sufficient information for you to formulate an opinion as to source or trajectory?

Dr. Perry. Well, I couldn't testify as to exact source, but if the wound, the smaller wound that you noted were present, it could certainly result in the large avulsive wound as it exited from the skull. As to the ultimate source, there would still be no way for me to tell.

Mr. Specter. Well, could you tell sufficient to comment on whether it came from the front or back of the President?

Dr. Perry. In the absence of other wounds of the head, the presence of the small wound which you described, in addition to the large avulsive wound of the skull and the scalp which I observed would certainly indicate that the two were related and would indicate both an entrance and an exit wound, if there were no other wounds.

Mr. Specter. And which would be the wound of entrance, then?

Dr. Perry. The smaller wound—the smaller wound.

Mr. Specter. Now, did you have occasion to talk via the telephone with Dr. James J. Humes of the Bethesda Naval Hospital?

Dr. Perry. I did.

Mr. Specter. And will you relate the circumstances of the calls indicating first the time when they occurred.

Dr. Perry. Dr. Humes called me twice on Friday afternoon, separated by about 30-minute intervals, as I recall. The first one, I, somehow think I recall the first one must have been around 1500 hours, but I'm not real sure about that; I'm not positive of that at all, actually.

Mr. Specter. Could it have been Saturday morning?

Dr. Perry. Saturday morning—was it? It's possible. I remember talking with him twice. I was thinking it was shortly thereafter.

Mr. Specter. Well, the record will show.

Dr. Perry. Oh, sure, it was Saturday morning—yes.

Mr. Specter. What made you change your view of that?

Dr. Perry. You mean Friday?

Mr. Specter. Did some specific recollection occur to you which changed your view from Friday to Saturday?

Dr. Perry. No, I was trying to place where I was at that time—Friday afternoon, and at that particular time, when I paused to think about it, I was actually up in the operating suite at that time, when I thought that he called initially. I seem to remember it being Friday, for some reason.

Mr. Specter. Where were you when you received those calls?

Dr. Perry. I was in the Administrator's office here when he called.

Mr. Specter. And what did he ask you, if anything?

Dr. Perry. He inquired about, initially, about the reasons for my doing a tracheotomy, and I replied, as I have to you, during this procedure, that there was a wound in the lower anterior third of the neck, which was exuding blood and was indicative of a possible tracheal injury underlying, and I did the tracheotomy through a transverse incision made through that wound, and I described to him the right lateral injury to the trachea and the completion of the operation.

He subsequently called back—at that time he told me, of course, that he could not talk to me about any of it and asked that I keep it in confidence, which I did, and he subsequently called back and inquired about the chest tubes, and why they were placed and I replied in part as I have here. It was somewhat more detailed. After having talked to Drs. Baxter and Peters and I identified them17 as having placed it in the second interspace, anteriorly, in the midclavicular line, in the right hemithorax, he asked me at that time if we had made any wounds in the back. I told him that I had not examined the back nor had I knowledge of any wounds of the back.

Mr. Specter. Would you relate the circumstances surrounding an article which appeared about you in the Saturday Evening Post, Dr. Perry?

Dr. Perry. The Saturday Evening Post contacted the department of surgery here, and talked with Dr. Tom Shires, chief of surgical services, in regard to a possible article on the treatment of the President. This was declined by us, and we requested that no such article be printed, and Dr. Shires informed me shortly thereafter about this conversation. Subsequently, an article was printed, which apparently was a copyrighted item. It first appeared in the New York Herald Tribune. It contained my picture and a picture of trauma room No. 1, and described the incidents surrounding the treatment of the President. Some of that information was obtained by personal interview of myself and Dr. Shires on Saturday morning, and I assume that the rest of it was obtained from various people here.

Mr. Specter. Was the content of that story accurate?

Dr. Perry. There were certain inaccuracies—the overall content was fairly consistent—there were inaccuracies in identification of participants and there were some inaccuracies in regards to conversations purported to have been held, and I do not, however, have knowledge about some of the other references made in the article, since they were apparently based on interviews with people other than myself.

Mr. Specter. Dr. Perry, have you talked to any representatives of the Federal Government about this matter prior to today?

Dr. Perry. Yes, I have.

Mr. Specter. Would you relate whom you have talked to and on what occasions? As best you can recollect it.

Dr. Perry. Well, I talked to several people, and I regret that I did not keep a record of it, and I find at this time that a lot of these things such as Dr. Humes' call, I suppose I should have kept a little better record, since everything was so kaleidoscopic that I have a very difficult time putting the proper sequence on it. I talked to several people who identified themselves both by name and with credentials as being affiliated with the Secret Service.

Mr. Specter. On how many occasions have you talked with Secret Service personnel?

Dr. Perry. At least three times, sir. Now, I can't give you the exact dates of these, and unfortunately the last two gentlemen, I can't even remember their names now.

Mr. Specter. How about the first gentleman?

Dr. Perry. No, his either. I was trying to think of the last two. I indicated that they both had the same last name, but at the present time it escapes me.

Mr. Specter. What did you tell them in essence?

Dr. Perry. Essentially what I have told you in regard to my impressions and my care of the President.

Mr. Specter. Has there ever been any variation in the information which you have given the Federal investigators?

Dr. Perry. No, sir; not in essence. There may have been a variation in wording or sequence of my presentation, but the treatment as I outlined it to you and as I outlined it to them, to the best of my knowledge, has been essentially consistent.

Mr. Specter. Have you talked to any other representatives of the Federal Government besides the Secret Service men?

Dr. Perry. I talked to two gentlemen initially within—who identified themselves as being with the Federal Bureau of Investigation. I do not recall their names either.

Mr. Specter. What did they ask you about?

Dr. Perry. Essentially the same questions in regard to what I might speculate as to the origin of the missiles and their trajectory, and I replied to them as I have to you that I could not ascertain this of my own knowledge, and described the wounds to the extent I saw them.

18 Mr. Specter. Have you set forth here today the same information which you gave to the FBI?

Dr. Perry. Yes, I think this is considerably in more detail, being essentially the same thing.

Mr. Specter. Have you now told me about all of the talks you have had with representatives of the Federal Government prior to today?

Dr. Perry. I think I have.

Mr. Specter. And did you and I sit down and talk about the purpose of this deposition and the questions which I would be asking you on the record, before this deposition started?

Dr. Perry. Yes; we did.

Mr. Specter. And did you give me the same information which you provided on the record here today?

Dr. Perry. I have.

Mr. Specter. Do you have anything to add which you think might be helpful in any way to the President's Commission?

Dr. Perry. No, sir.

Mr. Specter. Dr. Perry, we appreciate your coming for your deposition today, and I have given you a letter requesting your presence in Washington on Monday morning at 9 o'clock and I would ask you, for the record, to acknowledge receipt of letter, if you will, please.

Dr. Perry. Yes; I have the letter here and I will be there.

Mr. Specter. Thank you, very much, sir. Let me ask you one more question, Dr. Perry, for the record, before we terminate this deposition. What experience have you had, if any, with gunshot wounds?

Dr. Perry. I think in the course of my training here at Parkland, which is a city-county hospital and handles the great majority of the trauma cases that occur in Dallas County, that I have seen a fairly considerable number of traumatic wounds caused by knives, automobile accidents, gunshot wounds of various types.

Mr. Specter. Have you had any experience with gunshot wounds, in addition to that obtained here at Parkland?

Dr. Perry. You mean, in the service?

Mr. Specter. Yes, sir.

Dr. Perry. No, I had occasion to see only one gunshot wound while I was in the service.

Mr. Specter. Can you estimate how many gunshot wounds you have seen while you have been at Parkland?

Dr. Perry. Probably it would be numbered in the hundreds.

Mr. Specter. Have you had any formal training in ballistics?

Dr. Perry. No, other than the fact that I do some hunting and amateur hand loader.

Mr. Specter. Amateur what?

Dr. Perry. Amateur hand loader—hand load ammunition.

Mr. Specter. Thank you very much.

Dr. Perry. All right. Thank you.


TESTIMONY OF DR. WILLIAM KEMP CLARK

The testimony of Dr. William Kemp Clark was taken at 11:50 a.m., on March 21, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. Specter. Would you stand up please, Dr. Clark, and raise your right hand?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you will give before the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy in this deposition19 proceeding will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Dr. Clark. I do.

Mr. Specter. You may be seated.

Dr. Clark. Thank you.

Mr. Specter. The President's Commission is investigating all facts related to the Assassination of President Kennedy, and you have been asked to testify in this deposition proceeding relating to the medical treatment received by President Kennedy at Parkland Memorial Hospital and all facts incident thereto.

Dr. Clark, have you received a letter from the President's Commission enclosing a copy of the Executive Order establishing the Commission and a copy of a Senate and House Joint Resolution about the Commission, and a letter relating to the taking of testimony by the Commission?

Dr. Clark. I have.

Mr. Specter. And are you willing to proceed with this deposition today, even though 3 days have not elapsed between the time you received the letter and this morning?

Dr. Clark. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Would you state your full name for the record, please?

Dr. Clark. William Kemp Clark.

Mr. Specter. Will you outline in a general way your educational background, please?

Dr. Clark. Yes. I graduated from the University of Texas in Austin, 1944. I graduated from the University of Texas Medical Branch at Galveston in 1948. I interned at Indiana University Medical Center and was a resident in surgery there from 1948 to 1950. I spent 2 years in the Air Force and then took my residency in neurological surgery at Columbia Presbyterian Hospital in New York City. This was from 1953 to 1956, at which time I came to the University of Texas, Southwestern Medical School, as chairman of the division of neurological surgery.

Would you like the professional qualifications?

Mr. Specter. Yes; may I have the professional qualifications in summary form, if you will, please.

Dr. Clark. I am board certified by the American Board of Neurological Surgery. I am a Fellow with the American College of Surgeons. I am a member of the Harvey Cushing Society.

Mr. Specter. What is the Harvey Cushing Society, by the way?

Dr. Clark. It is the largest society of neurological surgeons in the world.

Mr. Specter. And what do your duties consist of with respect to the Southwestern Medical School of the University of Texas?

Dr. Clark. I am in charge of the division of neurological surgery and carry the responsibility of administering this department or this division, to arrange the instruction of medical students in neurological surgery and to conduct research in this field.

Mr. Specter. What were your duties back on November 22, 1963?

Dr. Clark. Essentially these. I also, as chairman of the division, have the responsibility as director of neurological surgery at Parkland Memorial Hospital which is the major teaching hospital of the medical school.

Mr. Specter. Did you receive notification on November 22, 1963, that the President had been wounded and was en route to this hospital?

Dr. Clark. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. Specter. Do you know at approximately what time you got that notification?

Dr. Clark. Approximately 12:20 or 12:30.

Mr. Specter. And what action, if any, did you take as a result of receiving that notification?

Dr. Clark. I went immediately to the emergency room at Parkland Hospital. I was in the laboratory at Southwestern Medical School when this word reached me by phone from the hospital.

Mr. Specter. And at approximately what time did you then arrive at the emergency room?

20 Dr. Clark. I would estimate it took a minute and a half to two minutes, so I would guess that I arrived approximately 12:30.

Mr. Specter. And who was present, if anyone, upon your arrival, attending to the President?

Dr. Clark. Dr. Jenkins, that is M. T. Jenkins, I suppose I ought to say, Dr. Ronald Jones, Dr. Malcolm Perry, Dr. James Carrico; arriving either with me or immediately thereafter were Dr. Robert McClelland, Dr. Paul Peters, and Dr. Charles Baxter.

Mr. Specter. What did you observe the President's condition to be on your arrival there?

Dr. Clark. The President was lying on his back on the emergency cart. Dr. Perry was performing a tracheotomy. There were chest tubes being inserted. Dr. Jenkins was assisting the President's respirations through a tube in his trachea. Dr. Jones and Dr. Carrico were administering fluids and blood intravenously. The President was making a few spasmodic respiratory efforts. I assisted in withdrawing the endotracheal tube from the throat as Dr. Perry was then ready to insert the tracheotomy tube. I then examined the President briefly.

My findings showed his pupils were widely dilated, did not react to light, and his eyes were deviated outward with a slight skew deviation.

I then examined the wound in the back of the President's head. This was a large, gaping wound in the right posterior part, with cerebral and cerebellar tissue being damaged and exposed. There was considerable blood loss evident on the carriage, the floor, and the clothing of some of the people present. I would estimate 1,500 cc. of blood being present.

As I was examining the President's wound, I felt for a carotid pulse and felt none. Therefore, I began external cardiac massage and asked that a cardiotachioscope be connected. Because of my position it was difficult to administer cardiac massage. However, Dr. Jones stated that he felt a femoral pulse.

Mr. Specter. What is a femoral pulse?

Dr. Clark. A femoral artery is the main artery going to the legs, and at the junction of the leg and the trunk you can feel the arterial pulsation in this artery. Because of my position, cardiac massage was taken over by Dr. Malcolm Perry, who was more advantageously situated.

Mr. Specter. What did the cardiotachioscope show at that time?

Dr. Clark. By this time the cardiotachioscope, we just call it a cardiac monitor for a better word——

Mr. Specter. That's a good word.

Dr. Clark. The cardiotachioscope had been attached and Dr. Fouad Bashour had arrived. There was transient electrical activity of the President's heart of an undefined type. Approximately, at this time the external cardiac massage became ineffectual and no pulsations could be felt. At this time it was decided to pronounce the President dead.

Mr. Specter. At what time was this fixed?

Dr. Clark. Death was fixed at 1 p.m.

Mr. Specter. Was that a precise time or an approximate time, or in what way did you fix the time of death at 1 o'clock?

Dr. Clark. This was an approximation as it is, first, extremely difficult to state precisely when death occurs. Secondly, no one was monitoring the clock, so an approximation of 1 o'clock was chosen.

Mr. Specter. Who was it who actually fixed the time of death?

Dr. Clark. I did.

Mr. Specter. And did you have any part in the filling out of the death certificate?

Dr. Clark. Yes.

Mr. Specter. And what did you do with respect to that?

Dr. Clark. I filled out the death certificate at the request of Dr. George Burkley, the President's physician at the White House, signed the death certificate as a registered physician in the State of Texas, and gave this to him to accompany the body to Washington.

21 Mr. Specter. Did you advise anyone else in the Presidential party of the death of the President?

Dr. Clark. Yes; I told Mrs. Kennedy, the President's wife, of his death.

Mr. Specter. And what, if anything, did she respond to you?

Dr. Clark. She told me that she knew it and thanked me for our efforts.

Mr. Specter. Were any bullets or parts of bullets found in the President's body?

Dr. Clark. Not by me, nor did I see any such missiles recovered at Parkland Hospital.

Mr. Specter. Were you a part of any press conference which followed on the day of the assassination?

Dr. Clark. Yes, sir; I was.

Mr. Specter. And who made the arrangements for the press conference?

Dr. Clark. Mr. Malcolm Kilduff, the Presidential press secretary.

Mr. Specter. At what time did the press conference occur?

Dr. Clark. Approximately 2:30.

Mr. Specter. Where was it held?

Dr. Clark. It was held in room 101–102, Parkland Hospital.

Mr. Specter. What mechanical instruments were used, if any, by the press at the conference?

Dr. Clark. Tape recorders and television cameras, as well as the usual note pads and pencils, and so forth.

Mr. Specter. And who was interviewed during the course of the press conference and photographed?

Dr. Clark. Dr. Malcolm Perry and myself.

Mr. Specter. No one else?

Dr. Clark. No.

Mr. Specter. What, if anything, did you say then in the course of that press conference?

Dr. Clark. I described the President's wound in his head in very much the same way as I have described it here. I was asked if this wound was an entrance wound, an exit wound, or what, and I said it could be an exit wound, but I felt it was a tangential wound.

Mr. Specter. Which wound did you refer to at this time?

Dr. Clark. The wound in the head.

Mr. Specter. Did you describe at that time what you meant by "tangential"?

Dr. Clark. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. Specter. What definition of "tangential" did you make at that time?

Dr. Clark. As I remember, I defined the word "tangential" as being—striking an object obliquely, not squarely or head on.

Mr. Specter. Will you describe at this time in somewhat greater detail the consequences of a tangential wound as contrasted with another type of a striking?

Dr. Clark. Let me begin by saying that the damage suffered by an organ when struck by a bullet or other missile——

Mr. Specter. May the record show that I interrupted the deposition for about 2 minutes to ascertain what our afternoon schedule would be here because the regular administration office ordinarily closes at 12 o'clock, which was just about 15 minutes ago, and then we resumed the deposition of Dr. Clark as he was discussing the concept of tangential and other types of striking.

Go ahead, Doctor.

Dr. Clark. The effects of any missile striking an organ or a function of the energy which is shed by the missile in passing through this organ when a bullet strikes the head, if it is able to pass through rapidly without shedding any energy into the brain, little damage results, other than that part of the brain which is directly penetrated by the missile. However, if it strikes the skull at an angle, it must then penetrate much more bone than normal, therefore, is likely to shed more energy, striking the brain a more powerful blow.

Secondly, in striking the bone in this manner, it may cause pieces of the bone to be blown into the brain and thus act as secondary missiles. Finally, the bullet itself may be deformed and deflected so that it would go through or penetrate parts of the brain, not in the usual direct line it was proceeding.

22 Mr. Specter. Now, referring back to the press conference, did you define a tangential wound at that time?

Dr. Clark. Yes.

Mr. Specter. And what else did you state at the press conference at 2:30 on November 22?

Dr. Clark. I stated that the President had lost considerable blood, that one of the contributing causes of death was this massive blood loss, that I was unable to state how many wounds the President had sustained or from what angle they could have come.

I finally remember stating that the President's wound was obviously a massive one and was insurvivable.

Mr. Specter. What did Dr. Perry say at that time, during the course of that press conference, when the cameras were operating?

Dr. Clark. As I recall, Dr. Perry stated that there was a small wound in the President's throat, that he made the incision for the tracheotomy through this wound. He discovered that the trachea was deviated so he felt that the missile had entered the President's chest. He asked for chest tubes then to be placed in the pleural cavities. He was asked if this wound in the throat was an entrance wound or an exit wound. He said it was small and clean so it could have been an entrance wound.

Mr. Specter. Did he say anything else that you can recollect now in response to the question of whether it was a wound of entrance or exit?

Dr. Clark. No, sir; I cannot recall.

Mr. Specter. Were you a part of a second press conference, Dr. Clark?

Dr. Clark. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. And when did that second press conference occur?

Dr. Clark. On Saturday, the 23d.

Mr. Specter. At about what time?

Dr. Clark. Sometime in the morning, as I recall.

Mr. Specter. Going back to the first press conference for just a minute, which television networks were involved on that?

Dr. Clark. Without sounding facetious, everyone, including some I had never heard of.

Mr. Specter. Can you recollect any besides the three major networks—ABC, CBS, and NBC?

Dr. Clark. This is all I remember. I remember seeing in the room two reporters from Dallas newspapers whom I know and the radio and television stations were also present.

Mr. Specter. Now, going back to the second conference which I had started asking you about, had you had an opportunity to tell me what time of day that was?

Dr. Clark. It was in the morning, as I recall.

Mr. Specter. And what television stations or networks were involved in that conference?

Dr. Clark. Again, all three major networks, and I believe through our local affiliates. It does not seem as though this one was as jammed and as full as the first one.

Mr. Specter. And who arranged that press conference?

Dr. Clark. That press conference was arranged by Mr. Steve Landregan, assistant administrator and public relations officer for the hospital. This is his office.

Mr. Specter. And who spoke at that press conference while the television cameras were grinding?

Dr. Clark. Dr. Perry and myself.

Mr. Specter. And what did you say at that time?

Dr. Clark. Essentially the same thing as I had on the first press conference, again defining tangential, and again describing the President's wound as being massive and unsurvivable.

Mr. Specter. And what did Dr. Perry, at that time, say?

Dr. Clark. Dr. Perry said very little. He described the President's condition as he first saw him, when he was first called, and he described the manner in which he was called to the emergency room.

23 Mr. Specter. Did he say anything about whether the neck wound was a point of entry or exit?

Dr. Clark. I do not remember—I specifically discussed this—may I add something to what I said in the first press conference?

Mr. Specter. Yes; please do, if you find something that comes to mind, please feel free to add that.

Dr. Clark. All right. Let me check what I remember Dr. Perry said at the first press conference. He was asked if the neck wound could be a wound of entrance or appeared to be a wound of exit, and Dr. Perry said something like "possibly or conceivably," or something of this sort.

Mr. Specter. And, did he elaborate as to how that projectory would have been possible in that press conference?

Dr. Clark. He did not elaborate on this. One of the reporters with gestures indicated the direction that such a bullet would have to take, and Dr. Perry quite obviously had to agree that this is the way it had to go to get from there to the top of his head.

Mr. Specter. But that was a possible trajectory under the circumstances?

Dr. Clark. Yes.

Mr. Specter. How would that have been postulated in terms of striking specific parts of the body?

Dr. Clark. Well, on a speculation, this would mean that the missile would have had to have been fired from below—upward or that the President was hanging upside down.

Me. Specter. Did Dr. Perry discuss anything with you prior to that second conference about a telephone call from Washington, D.C.?

Dr. Clark. Yes; he did.

Mr. Specter. Would you relate briefly what Dr. Perry told you about that subject?

Dr. Clark. Yes; Dr. Perry stated that he had talked to the Bethesda Naval Hospital on two occasions that morning and that he knew what the autopsy findings had shown and that he did not wish to be questioned by the press, as he had been asked by Bethesda to confine his remarks to that which he knew from having examined the President, and suggested that the major part of this press conference be conducted by me.

Mr. Specter. Was anyone else present when he expressed those thoughts to you?

Dr. Clark. I believe that Mr. Price and Dr. Shires were present. I could be wrong on that.

Mr. Specter. Now, were you a part of a third press conference?

Dr. Clark. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. And when did that occur?

Dr. Clark. During the following week—I have forgotten exactly the day.

Mr. Specter. And what networks were involved at that time?

Dr. Clark. It was CBS.

Mr. Specter. Was that a television conference?

Dr. Clark. Yes; this was filmed.

Mr. Specter. And who arranged that conference?

Dr. Clark. Again, Mr. Landregan.

Mr. Specter. And who spoke at that conference?

Dr. Clark. Dr. Shaw, Dr. Shires, Dr. Baxter, Dr. McClelland, Dr. Jenkins, Dr. Gieseke, and myself.

Mr. Specter. Was Dr. Perry there at that time?

Dr. Clark. Yes; Dr. Perry was there.

Mr. Specter. Would you outline briefly what you said at that time, if it differed in any way from what you said before?

Dr. Clark. No, sir; it did not.

Mr. Specter. What did Dr. Perry say at that time?

Dr. Clark. Essentially the same thing that he had said before, describing the wound in the throat, describing the condition of the President, how he was called and so forth.

Mr. Specter. Did he comment at that time as to whether it was an entrance wound or an exit wound or what?

24 Dr. Clark. I don't remember.

Mr. Specter. And what did Dr. Shaw say at that time?

Dr. Clark. Dr. Shaw described Governor Connally's chest wound. He described what was done for him, the operation in some detail. He described the fact that Governor Connally was conscious up until the time he was anesthetized in the operating room.

Mr. Specter. And what did Dr. Shires say at that time?

Dr. Clark. Dr. Shires described the wounds suffered by Oswald and what was done in an attempt to save him.

Mr. Specter. And how about Dr. Gieseke, what did he say?

Dr. Clark. Dr. Gieseke corroborated Dr. Shaw's statements regarding Governor Connally's condition and his remaining conscious until he was anesthetized by Dr. Gieseke.

Mr. Specter. What did Dr. Baxter say at that conference?

Dr. Clark. Dr. Baxter described President Kennedy's condition as he saw it, stated that he had assisted in the placing in the chest tubes on President Kennedy, and that he had been present at Oswald's operation.

Mr. Specter. Did Dr. Baxter describe the neck wound that President Kennedy suffered with specific respect as to whether it was point of entry or exit?

Dr. Clark. I don't remember—I don't believe he did.

Mr. Specter. Now, have we covered all the doctors who spoke at that press conference?

Dr. Clark. Except Dr. Jenkins.

Mr. Specter. And what did Dr. Jenkins say at that time?

Dr. Clark. Dr. Jenkins described being called to attend President Kennedy, how he got there with his anesthesia machine, that he found an endotracheal tube had already been inserted. He hooked up and he described the activities in the emergency room, operating room No. 1, and he described the stopping of the President's heart and the decision to pronounce him dead. He went ahead to describe the operation on Mr. Oswald and the extent of blood loss, etc., which he had sustained.

Mr. Specter. Now, were you involved in still a subsequent press conference?

Dr. Clark. Yes, sir; I was.

Mr. Specter. And with whom was that press conference?

Dr. Clark. This was with NBC and was approximately 2 weeks after the assassination.

Mr. Specter. And who arranged that press conference?

Dr. Clark. Mr. Landregan.

Mr. Specter. And was that filmed?

Dr. Clark. Yes, that was also filmed.

Mr. Specter. And who spoke at that time?

Dr. Clark. I spoke alone as a representative of the department and so stated in the conference.

Mr. Specter. And what did you say at that time?

Dr. Clark. Essentially the same thing as had been stated before.

Mr. Specter. Now, were you a part of still another press conference?

Dr. Clark. Yes.

Mr. Specter. When was that?

Dr. Clark. The week after the assassination.

Mr. Specter. And with whom was that press conference?

Dr. Clark. With BBC.

Mr. Specter. Who arranged that?

Dr. Clark. Mr. Landregan, again.

Mr. Specter. And did anyone else participate in that press conference with you?

Dr. Clark. No.

Mr. Specter. And was that televised, filmed, or simply recorded?

Dr. Clark. It was simply recorded.

Mr. Specter. And what did you say at that time?

Dr. Clark. Exactly the same thing as I have said at the previous conferences, describing the President's condition, his wound, and what transpired after I arrived.

25 Mr. Specter. At any of the press conferences were you asked about a hole on the left side of the President's head?

Dr. Clark. Yes.

Mr. Specter. At which conference or conferences?

Dr. Clark. I was asked about this at the CBS conference and I stated that I personally saw no such wound.

Mr. Specter. And who asked you about it at that time, if you recall?

Dr. Clark. The man who was conducting the conference. This was brought up by one of the physicians, I think Dr. McClelland, that there was some discussion of such a wound.

Mr. Specter. Did Dr. McClelland say that he had seen such a wound?

Dr. Clark. No.

Mr. Specter. What was the origin, if you know, as to the inquiry on the wound, that is, who suggested that there might have been a wound on the left side?

Dr. Clark. I don't recall—I don't recall.

Mr. Specter. Had there been some comment that the priests made a comment that there was a wound on the left side of the head?

Dr. Clark. I heard this subsequently from one of the reporters who attended the press conference with NBC.

Mr. Specter. Were priests actually in trauma room 1?

Dr. Clark. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. Where were they in relation to the President at that time?

Dr. Clark. They were on the right side of the President's body.

Mr. Specter. Now, you described the massive wound at the top of the President's head, with the brain protruding; did you observe any other hole or wound on the President's head?

Dr. Clark. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. Specter. Did you observe, to make my question very specific, a bullet hole or what appeared to be a bullet hole in the posterior scalp, approximately 2.5 cm. laterally to the right, slightly above the external occipital protuberant, measuring 15 by 6 mm.

Dr. Clark. No, sir; I did not. This could have easily been hidden in the blood and hair.

Mr. Specter. Did you observe any bullet wounds or any other wound on the back side of the President?

Dr. Clark. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. Specter. Was the President ever turned over while he was in the emergency room?

Dr. Clark. Not in my presence; no, sir.

Mr. Specter. And did you leave before, with, or after all the other doctors who were in attendance?

Dr. Clark. I left after all the other doctors who were in attendance, because I stayed with Dr. Burkley until we had the death certificate signed and the arrangements had been made to transport the President's body out of Parkland Hospital.

Mr. Specter. You say Dr. Burkley or Buckley?

Dr. Clark. Dr. Burkley.

Mr. Specter. That's the President's private physician?

Dr. Clark. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Dr. Clark, would your observations be consistent with some other alleged facts in this matter, such as the presence of a lateral wound measuring 15 by 6 mm. on the posterior scalp approximately 2.5 cm. laterally to the right and slightly above the external occipital proturberant—that is to say, could such a hole have been present without your observing it?

Dr. Clark. Yes, in the presence of this much destruction of skull and scalp above such a wound and lateral to it and the brief period of time available for examination—yes, such a wound could be present.

Mr. Specter. The physicians, surgeons who examined the President at the autopsy specifically, Commander James J. Humes, H-u-m-e-s (spelling); Commander J. Thornton Boswell, B-o-s-w-e-l-l (spelling), and Lt. Col. Pierre A. Finck, F-i-n-c-k (spelling), expressed the joint opinion that the wound which26 I have just described as being 15 by 6 mm. and 2.5 cm. to the right and slightly above the external occipital protuberant was a point of entrance of a bullet in the President's head at a time when the President's head was moved slightly forward with his chin dropping into his chest, when he was riding in an open car at a slightly downhill position. With those facts being supplied to them in a hypothetical fashion, they concluded that the bullet would have taken a more or less straight course, exiting from the center of the President's skull at a point indicated by an opening from three portions of the skull reconstructed, which had been brought to them—would those findings and those conclusions be consistent with your observations if you assumed the additional facts which I have brought to your attention, in addition to those which you have personally observed?

Dr. Clark. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. Dr. Clark, in the line of your specialty, could you comment as to the status of the President with respect to competency, had he been able to survive the head injuries which you have described and the total wound which he had?

Dr. Clark. This, of course, is a question of tremendous importance. Just let me state that the loss of cerebrellar tissue would probably have been of minimal consequence in the performance of his duties. The loss of the right occipital and probably part of the right parietal lobes would have been of specific importance. This would have led to a visual field deficit, which would have interfered in a major way with his ability to read, not the interpretation of reading matter per se, but the acquisition of information from the printed page. He would have had specific difficulty with finding the next line in a book or paper. This would have proven to be a specific handicap in getting information on which, as the President of the United States, he would have to act.

How much damage he would have had to his motor system, that is, the ability to control or coordinate his left extremities, I would not know. This conceivably could have been a problem in enabling him to move about, to appear in public, et cetera. Finally, and probably most important, since the brain, as far as at its higher levels, largely as a unit, the loss of this much brain tissue likely would have impaired his ability in abstract reasoning, imagination; whereas, the part of the President's brain struck is not that part specifically concerned with these matters. The effect of loss of considerable brain tissue does affect the total performance of the organ in these matters. There would be grave doubts in my mind as to our ability as physicians to give a clear answer regarding his ability to function as President of the United States.

Our ability to judge this is sometimes sorely tried when dealing with people with considerably less intellectual and moral demands made upon them.

Mr. Specter. Doctor, did you prepare certain written reports based on your participation in the treatment of President Kennedy?

Dr. Clark. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. Specter. And I now show you a document which has been supplied to the President's Commission, which we have marked as Commission Exhibit No. 392, and I now show you the second and third sheets, which purport to be the summary made by you and ask if that was prepared by you?

Dr. Clark. Yes, sir; it was.

Mr. Specter. And, are the facts set forth in those two sheets true and correct?

Dr. Clark. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. And I now show you a 2-page summary which purports to bear your signature, being dated November 22, 1963, and I ask you if that, in fact, is your signature?

Dr. Clark. Yes; it is.

Mr. Specter. And, was, in fact, this report made in your own hand concerning the treatment which you rendered to the President?

Dr. Clark. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. And are the facts set forth therein true and correct?

Dr. Clark. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. Have you made any other written report or other writings of any sort concerning this matter?

27 Dr. Clark. No; I have not.

Mr. Specter. Have you been interviewed or discussed this matter with any Federal representative prior to today?

Dr. Clark. Yes, sir; I have.

Mr. Specter. And whom did you talk to?

Dr. Clark. I talked to an FBI agent a few days after the assassination, in Mr. Jack Price's office.

Mr. Specter. And who is Mr. Price, for the record at this point?

Dr. Clark. He is the administrator of Parkland Memorial Hospital. This agent asked me if I had recovered any missiles or fragments of missiles from the President's body. I said I did not, and he asked me if I knew of anyone in Parkland Hospital who had recovered such evidence and I assured him I did not.

Mr. Specter. Did he ask you anything further?

Dr. Clark. No, sir.

Mr. Specter. Did you tell him anything further?

Dr. Clark. No, sir. I offered to answer any questions he might have asked and he said that was all he wished to know.

Mr. Specter. And did you talk to any other representative of the Federal Government at any time before today?

Dr. Clark. Yes; I talked to a member of the Secret Service approximately a month after the assassination. I talked to him on two occasions, once by phone, and he asked me if I had a copy of the written report submitted by Dr. Ronald Jones, and I told him I did not.

I subsequently talked to him in person. He showed me the summary that I prepared and sent to Dr. Burkley, the same document I just identified here, and my own handwritten report of the events of the afternoon of the 22d of November. He asked me if I prepared these and I told him I had. He asked me if I had any other written records. I told him I did not. He said, "Do you have any additional information than you have written?" I said I did not. He thanked me very much for coming.

Mr. Specter. Have you now summarized all of the conversations you have had with any representative of the Federal Government prior to today?

Dr. Clark. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. And have you had any conversations with any representative of the State government prior to today?

Dr. Clark. No, sir.

Mr. Specter. Before you were sworn in to have your deposition taken, did you and I have a discussion about this matter?

Dr. Clark. Yes, sir; a pleasant discussion of what the function of this Commission is.

Mr. Specter. And, also, all of what I would be asking once the record was open and we started taking your deposition?

Dr. Clark. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. And have we covered on the record with the court reporter transcribing all the subjects which you and I discussed informally and prior to the start of the more formal session here?

Dr. Clark. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. Do you have anything which you would care to add, which you think might possibly be helpful to the Commission in any way, Dr. Clark?

Dr. Clark. No, sir; I'm afraid I don't.

Mr. Specter. Thank you very much for coming. We surely appreciate it, Dr. Clark. Thank you, Dr. Clark.

Dr. Clark. Thank you.


28

TESTIMONY OF DR. KEMP CLARK RESUMED

The testimony of Dr. Kemp Clark was taken at 12:05 p.m., on March 25, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. Specter. May the record show that Dr. Kemp Clark has returned to have a few additional questions asked of him following the deposition which was taken on March 21.

Dr. Clark, the purpose of this additional deposition is the same as the first one, except that I am going to ask you a few additional questions based upon a translation of an article which appeared in "L' Express", which has been provided to me since the deposition of last Saturday.

Would you please stand up again and raise your right hand?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you will give before the President's Commission in this deposition proceeding will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Dr. Clark. I do.

Mr. Specter. Dr. Clark, I have made available to you, have I not, what purports to be a translation from French of the "L' Express" issue of February 20, 1964?

Dr. Clark. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. And let me read for the record and for you this excerpt.

"On his part according to the New York Times of November 27, 'Dr. Kemp Clark, who signed the Kennedy death certificate, declared that a bullet hit him right where the knot of his necktie was.' He added," apparently referring to you, "'this bullet penetrated into his chest and did not come out'. The surgeon went on to say that the second wound of the President was 'tangential' and that it had been caused by a bullet which hit 'the right side of his head'".

Dr. Clark, my first question is—what, if anything, did you say to a New York Times representative or anyone, for that matter, with respect to whether a bullet hit the President where the knot of his necktie was.

Dr. Clark. I remember using the phrase to describe the location of a wound in the President's throat as being at the point of his knot of his necktie. I do not recall ever specifically stating that this was an entrance wound, as has been said before. I was not present when the President arrived and did not see this wound. If any statement regarding its entrance or exit was made by me, it was indicating that there was a small wound described there by the physicians who first saw the President.

A specific quotation regarding entrance or exit, I feel, is a partial quotation or incompletely quoted from me. The part pertaining to the bullet entering the President's chest rests on the reasons for the placing of the chest tubes which were being inserted when I arrived. It was the assumption, based on the previously described deviation of the trachea and the presence of blood in the strap muscles of the neck that a wound or missile wound might have entered the President's chest.

Mr. Specter. Well, what was there, Dr. Clark, in the deviation of the trachea and the presence of blood in the strap muscles of the neck which so indicated?

Dr. Clark. Assuming that a missile had entered the pleural space, if there had been bleeding into the pleural space, the trachea would have been deviated or had there been leakage of air into the pleural space, the trachea would have been deviated, as it is the main conduit of air to the two lungs. Collapse of a lung would have produced, or will produce deviation of the trachea. There being a wound in the throat, there being blood in the strap muscles and there being deviation of the trachea in the presence of a grievously wounded patient without opportunity for X-ray or other diagnostic measures, Dr. Perry assumed that the findings in the neck were due to penetration of the missile into the chest. For this reason, he requested chest tubes to be placed.

Mr. Specter. Well, is the deviation of the trachea and the presence of bleeding on the strap muscles of the neck and the other factors which you have recited equally consistent with a wound of exit on the neck?

Dr. Clark. Yes, sir. Furthermore, let me say that the presence of the deviation of the trachea, with blood in the strap muscles, are by no means diagnostic of penetration of the chest, and the placing of the chest tubes was prophylactic had such an eventuality occurred.

Mr. Specter. Was there any external indication that there was a missile in the chest?

29 Dr. Clark. No, sir.

Mr. Specter. Was it the preliminary thought that the missile might have been in the chest by virtue of the fact that this wound was noted on the neck?

Dr. Clark. Yes; with the other factors I have enumerated.

Mr. Specter. And at that time, not knowing what the angle might have been or any of the surrounding circumstances, then you proceeded to take precautionary measures as if there might have been a missile in the chest at some point?

Dr. Clark. That is correct. Measures were taken, assuming the worst had happened.

Mr. Specter. As the quotation appears in the issue of "L' Express," "This bullet penetrated into his chest and did not come out," would that then be an accurate quotation of something that you said, Dr. Clark?

Dr. Clark. No, sir.

Mr. Specter. Dr. Clark, while you are here again, I would like to ask you a few additional questions.

Let the record show that since I have taken your deposition, I have taken the depositions of many additional witnesses and none has been transcribed, so I am not in a position to refer to a record to see what I asked you before or to frankly recollect precisely what I asked you before, so, to some extent these questions may be overlapping.

Did you observe the President's back at that time when he was in the emergency room?

Dr. Clark. No, sir.

Mr. Specter. What was the reason for your not looking at his back?

Dr. Clark. First, the duration of time that the President was alive in the emergency room was a brief duration. All efforts were bent toward saving his life rather than inspection for precise location of wounds. After his death it was not our position to try to evaluate all of the conceivable organs or areas of the body, knowing that an autopsy would be performed and that this would be far more meaningful than a cursory external examination here.

Mr. Specter. Was there any bleeding wound in the President's back?

Dr. Clark. In the back of his head.

Mr. Specter. But how about on the back of his body, was there any bleeding wound noted?

Dr. Clark. Since we did not turn the President over, I cannot answer that specifically. We saw none, as I previously stated.

Mr. Specter. Did you undertake any action to ascertain whether there had been a violation to a major extent of the back part of his body?

Dr. Clark. No, sir.

Mr. Specter. That is, none was taken by you personally?

Dr. Clark. That's correct.

Mr. Specter. Dr. Carrico testified earlier today, being the first doctor to reach him, that he felt the President's back to determine whether there was any major violation of that area.

Would that be a customary action to take to ascertain whether there was any major wound, by the doctor who first examined the patient?

Dr. Clark. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. Assuming that the President had a bullet wound of entry on the upper right posterior thorax, just above the upper border of the scapula, 14 cms. from the right acromion process, 14 cm. below the tip of the right mastoid process, would there have been a bloody type wound?

Dr. Clark. I'm sorry—your question?

Mr. Specter. Would such a wound of entry by a missile traveling approximately 2,000 feet per second, approximately 6.5 mm. in diameter, cause a bloody type of a wound?

Dr. Clark. No, sir. Such a wound could have easily been overlooked in the presence of the much larger wound in the right occipital region of the President's skull, from which considerable blood loss had occurred which stained the back of his head, neck and upper shoulders.

Mr. Specter. Dr. Clark, I want to ask you a question as it is raised here in "L' Express".

30 "How did the practitioner who signed the death certificate of the President fail to take the trouble to turn him over?"

Of course, that refers to you and will you give me your answer to that question, as the news media has posed it?

Dr. Clark. Quite simply, as I previously stated, the duration of time the President was alive was occupied by attempts to save his life. When these failed, further examination of the patient's body was not done, as it was felt that little could be gained or learned that would be helpful in deciding the course of events leading up to his assassination, that is, examination by me, as I knew an autopsy would be performed which would be far more meaningful and revealing than any cursory external examination conducted in the emergency room by me.

Mr. Specter. Now, was the action taken by you in signing the death certificate based upon the examination which you made in accordance with what you believed to be good medical practice?

Dr. Clark. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. So that the characterization here of "L' Express" that the failure to turn the President over would not constitute gross negligence in your professional judgment, as they have characterized it here.

Dr. Clark. No, sir. One other point, if I may here?

Mr. Specter. Yes.

Dr. Clark. In order to move the President's body to Bethesda where the autopsy was to be performed, a death certificate had to be filled out in conformance with Texas State law to allow the body to be transported. This is the second part of the signing of the death certificate.

Mr. Specter. Do you have anything to add, Dr. Clark, which you think might be helpful at all in the inquiry being made by the President's Commission?

Dr. Clark. No; I don't think so.

Mr. Specter. And did you and I chat for just a moment or two about the questions I would ask you on this supplemental deposition before it went on the record?

Dr. Clark. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. And have you talked to any representative of the Federal Government between the time I took your deposition last Saturday and this Wednesday morning?

Dr. Clark. No, sir.

Mr. Specter. Thank you very much, Dr. Clark.

Dr. Clark. All right.


TESTIMONY OF DR. ROBERT NELSON McCLELLAND

The testimony of Dr. Robert Nelson McClelland was taken on March 21, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. Specter. Will you raise your right hand?

Dr. McClelland. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give in these proceedings will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Dr. McClelland. I do.

Mr. Specter. Dr. McClelland, the purpose of this proceeding is to take your deposition in connection with an investigation which is being conducted by the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy, and the specific purpose of our requesting you to answer questions relates to the topic of the medical care which President Kennedy received at Parkland Memorial Hospital.

Dr. McClelland, will you tell us your full name for the record, please?

Dr. McClelland. Robert Nelson McClelland.

31 Mr. Specter. Have you received a letter from the Commission which enclosed a copy of the Executive order creating the Commission, and a copy of the Congressional Resolution pertaining to the Commission, and a copy of the procedures for taking testimony under the Commission?

Dr. McClelland. Yes.

Mr. Specter. And is it satisfactory with you to answer these questions for us today, even though you haven't had the 3 days between the time of the receipt of the letter and today?

Dr. McClelland. Yes.

Mr. Specter. What is your profession, Doctor?

Dr. McClelland. I am a doctor of medicine.

Mr. Specter. Would you outline briefly your educational background, starting with your graduation from college, please?

Dr. McClelland. Since graduation from college I attended medical school at the University of Texas, medical branch in Galveston, Tex., and received the M.D. degree from that school in 1954. I then went to Kansas City, Kans., where I did a rotating internship at the University of Kansas Medical Center from June 1954 to June 1955. Following that period I was a general medical officer in the Air Force for 2 years in Germany, and subsequent to my release from active duty, I became a general surgery resident at Parkland Memorial Hospital in Dallas in August of 1957. I remained at Parkland from that date to August 1959, at which time I entered private practice for ten months, and then reentered my general surgery training program at Parkland in June 1960. I completed my 4 years of general surgical training in June 1962. Following that time I became a full-time instructor of surgery on the staff of the University of Texas, Southwestern Medical School, and I am at the present time an associate professor of surgery at that school.

Mr. Specter. Dr. McClelland, in connection with your duties at Parkland Hospital, or before, have you had any experience with gunshot wounds?

Dr. McClelland. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Where in your background did you acquire that experience?

Dr. McClelland. Largely during residency training and subsequent to that in my capacity here on the staff.

Mr. Specter. And what has provided the opportunity for your experience here at Parkland in residency training and on the staff with respect to acquiring knowledge of gunshot wounds?

Dr. McClelland. Largely this has been related to the type of hospital which Parkland is; namely, City-County Hospital which receives all of the indigent patients of this county, many of whom are involved frequently in shooting altercations, so that we do see a large number of that type patient almost daily.

Mr. Specter. Could you approximate for me the total number of gunshot wounds which you have had an opportunity to observe?

Dr. McClelland. I would estimate that it would be in excess of 200.

Mr. Specter. What was your duty assignment back on November 22, 1963?

Dr. McClelland. At that time I was showing a film on surgical techniques to a group of students and residents on the second floor of Parkland Hospital in the surgical suite, where I was notified of the fact that President Kennedy was being brought to the Parkland emergency room after having been shot.

Mr. Specter. And what action, if any, did you take following that notification?

Dr. McClelland. Immediately upon hearing that, I accompanied the Resident, Dr. Crenshaw, who brought this news to me, to the emergency room, and down to the trauma room 1 where President Kennedy had been taken immediately upon arrival.

Mr. Specter. And approximately what time did you arrive in Emergency Room 1?

Dr. McClelland. This is a mere approximation, but I would approximate or estimate, rather, about 12:40.

Mr. Specter. And who was present, if anyone, at the time of your arrival?

Dr. McClelland. At the time I arrived, Dr. Perry—would you like the full names of all these?

Mr. Specter. That would be fine, I would appreciate that.

32 Dr. McClelland. Dr. Malcolm Perry, Dr. Charles Baxter, Dr. Charles Crenshaw, Dr. James Carrico, Dr. Paul Peters.

Mr. Specter. Were they all present at the time you arrived?

Dr. McClelland. They were not present when I arrived.

Mr. Specter. Will you start with the ones who were present?

Dr. McClelland. Starting with the ones who were present, I'm sorry, the ones who were present when I arrived were Drs. Carrico, Perry and Baxter. The others I mentioned arrived subsequently or about the same time that I did.

Mr. Specter. Then, what other doctors, if any, arrived after you did, in addition to those whom you have already mentioned?

Dr. McClelland. In addition, the ones that arrived afterwards, were Dr. Kenneth Salyer.

Mr. Specter. S-a-l-y-e-r?

Dr. McClelland. S-a-l-y-e-r, Dr. Fouad, F-o-u-a-d Bashour, Dr. Donald Seldin----

Mr. Specter. S-e-l-d-i-n?

Dr. McClelland. S-e-l-d-i-n—I believe that's all.

Mr. Specter. What did you observe as to President Kennedy's condition at that time?

Dr. McClelland. Well, on initially coming into the room and inspecting him from a distance of only 2 or 3 feet as I put on a pair of surgical gloves, it was obvious that he had sustained a probably mortal head injury, and that his face was extremely swollen and suffused with blood appeared cyanotic——

Mr. Specter. "Cyanotic"—may I interrupt—just what do you mean by that in lay terms?

Dr. McClelland. This mean bluish discoloration, bluish-black discoloration of the tissue. The eyes were somewhat protuberant, which is usually seen after massive head injuries denoting increased intracranial pressure, and it seemed that he perhaps was not making, at the time at least, spontaneous respiratory movements, but was receiving artificial respiration from a machine, an anesthesia machine.

Mr. Specter. Who was operating that machine?

Dr. McClelland. The machine—there was a changeover, just as I came in, one of the doctors in the room, I don't recall which one, had been operating what we call an intermittent positive pressure breathing machine.

Mr. Specter. Had that machine been utilized prior to your arrival?

Dr. McClelland. It was in use as I arrived, yes, and about the same time I arrived—this would be one other doctor who came in the room that I forgot about—Dr. Jenkins, M. T. Jenkins, professor of anesthesiology, came into the room with a larger anesthesia machine, which is a better type machine with which to maintain control of respiration, and this was then attached to the tube in the President's tracheotom; anyway, respiratory movements were being made for him with these two machines, which were in the process of being changed when I came in.

Then, as I took my post to help with the tracheotomy, I was standing at the end of the stretcher on which the President was lying, immediately at his head, for purposes of holding a tracheotom, or a retractory in the neck line.

Mr. Specter. What did you observe, if anything, as to the status of the neck wound when you first arrived?

Dr. McClelland. The neck wound, when I first arrived, was at this time converted into a tracheotomy incision. The skin incision had been made by Dr. Perry, and he told me—although I did not see that—that he had made the incision through a very small, perhaps less than one quarter inch in diameter wound in the neck.

Mr. Specter. Do you recall whether he described it any more precisely than that?

Dr. McClelland. He did not at that time.

Mr. Specter. Has he ever described it any more precisely for you?

Dr. McClelland. He has since that time.

Mr. Specter. And what description has he given of it since that time?

Dr. McClelland. As well as I can recall, the description that he gave was essentially as I have just described, that it was a very small injury, with clear33 cut, although somewhat irregular margins of less than a quarter inch in diameter, with minimal tissue damage surrounding it on the skin.

Mr. Specter. Now, was there anything left for you to observe of that bullet wound, or had the incision obliterated it?

Dr. McClelland. The incision had obliterated it, essentially, the skin portion, that is.

Mr. Specter. Before proceeding to describe what you did in connection with the tracheostomy, will you more fully describe your observation with respect to the head wound?

Dr. McClelland. As I took the position at the head of the table that I have already described, to help out with the tracheotomy, I was in such a position that I could very closely examine the head wound, and I noted that the right posterior portion of the skull had been extremely blasted. It had been shattered, apparently, by the force of the shot so that the parietal bone was protruded up through the scalp and seemed to be fractured almost along its right posterior half, as well as some of the occipital bone being fractured in its lateral half, and this sprung open the bones that I mentioned in such a way that you could actually look down into the skull cavity itself and see that probably a third or so, at least, of the brain tissue, posterior cerebral tissue and some of the cerebellar tissue had been blasted out. There was a large amount of bleeding which was occurring mainly from the large venous channels in the skull which had been blasted open.

Mr. Specter. Was he alive at the time you first saw him?

Dr. McClelland. I really couldn't say, because as I mentioned in the hectic activity—I really couldn't say what his blood pressure was or what his pulse was or anything of that sort. The only thing I could say that would perhaps give evidence—this is not vital activity—at most, is that maybe he made one or two spontaneous respiratory movements but it would be difficult to say, since the machine was being used on him, whether these were true spontaneous respirations or not.

Mr. Specter. Would you now describe the activity and part that you performed in the treatment which followed your arrival?

Dr. McClelland. Yes; as I say, all I did was simply assist Dr. Perry and Dr. Baxter in doing the tracheotomy. All three of us worked together in making an incision in the neck, tracting the neck muscles out of the way, and making a small opening into the trachea near the spot where the trachea had already been blasted or torn open by the fragment of the bullet, and inserting a large metal tracheotomy tube into this hole, and after this the breathing apparatus was attached to this instead of the previous tube which had been placed here.

Mr. Specter. In conducting that operation, did you observe any interior damage to the President?

Dr. McClelland. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Will you describe that for me, please?

Dr. McClelland. That damage consisted mainly of a large amount of contusion and hematoma formation in the tissue lateral to the right side of the trachea and the swelling and bleeding around this site was to such extent that the trachea was somewhat deviated to the left side, not a great deal, but to a degree at least that it required partial cutting of some of the neck muscles in order to get good enough exposure to put in the tracheotomy tube, but there was a good deal of soft tissue damage and damage to the trachea itself where apparently the missile had gone between the trachea on the right side and the strap muscles which were applied closely to it.

Mr. Specter. What other treatment was given to President Kennedy at the time you were performing the procedures you have just described?

Dr. McClelland. To the best of my knowledge, the other treatment had consisted of the placement of cutdown sites in his extremities, namely, the making of incisions over large veins in the arms and, I believe, in the leg; however, I'm not sure about that, since I was not paying too much attention to that part of the activity, and large plastic tubes were placed into these veins for the giving of blood and fluids, and as I recall, he received a certain amount of blood, but I don't know exactly how much, since I was not actually giving the blood.

34 In addition to that, of course, while we were working on the tracheotomy incision, the other physicians that I have mentioned were attaching the President rapidly to a cardiac monitor, that is to say, an electrocardiogram, for checking the presence of cardiac activity, and in addition, chest tubes were being placed in the right and left chest—both, as I recall.

Mr. Specter. Do you recall who was placing those tubes?

Dr. McClelland. One of the tubes, I believe, was placed by Dr. Peters. The other one, I'm not right certain, I don't really recall—I perhaps better not say.

Mr. Specter. Do you know about how long that took in placing those chest tubes?

Dr. McClelland. As well as I am aware, the tubes were both placed in. What this involves is simply putting a trocar, a large hollow tube, and that is put into the small incision, into the anterior chest wall and slipping the tube into the chest between a group of ribs for purposes of relieving any collection of air or fluid which is present in the lungs. The reason this was done was because it was felt that there was probably quite possibly a mediastinal injury with perhaps suffusion of blood and air into one or both pleural cavities.

Mr. Specter. What effect did this medical treatment have on President Kennedy?

Dr. McClelland. As near as we could tell, unfortunately, none. We felt that from the time we saw him, most of us agreed, all of us agreed rather, that this was a mortal wound, but that in spite of this feeling that all attempts possible should be made to revive him, as far as establishing the airway breathing for him, and replacing blood and what not, but unfortunately the loss of blood and the loss of cerebral and cerebellar tissues were so great that the efforts were of no avail.

Mr. Specter. Was he conscious at that time that you saw him?

Dr. McClelland. No.

Mr. Specter. And, at what time did he expire?

Dr. McClelland. He was pronounced dead at 1 p.m. on November 22.

Mr. Specter. What was the cause of death in your opinion?

Dr. McClelland. The cause of death, I would say, would be massive head injuries with loss of large amounts of cerebral and cerebellar tissues and massive blood loss.

Mr. Specter. Did you observe anything in the nature of a wound on his body other than that which you have already described for me?

Dr. McClelland. No.

Mr. Specter. In what position was President Kennedy maintained from the time you saw him until the pronouncement of death?

Dr. McClelland. On his back on the cart.

Mr. Specter. On his what?

Dr. McClelland. On his back on the stretcher.

Mr. Specter. Was he on the stretcher at all times?

Dr. McClelland. Yes.

Mr. Specter. In the trauma room No. 1 you described, is there any table onto which he could be placed from the stretcher?

Dr. McClelland. No; generally we do not move patients from the stretcher until they are ready to go into the operating room and then they are moved onto the operating table.

Mr. Specter. Well, in fact, was he left on the stretcher all during the course of these procedures until he was pronounced dead?

Dr. McClelland. That's right.

Mr. Specter. Then, at any time was he positioned in a way where you could have seen the back of his body?

Dr. McClelland. No.

Mr. Specter. Did you observe any gunshot wound on his back?

Dr. McClelland. No.

Mr. Specter. Have you had discussions with the other doctors who attended President Kennedy as to the possible nature of the wound which was inflicted on him?

Dr. McClelland. Yes.

Mr. Specter. And what facts did you have available either to you or to the35 other doctors whom you talked this over with, with respect to the nature of the wound, source of the wounds, and that sort of thing?

Dr. McClelland. Immediately we had essentially no facts. We knew nothing of the number of bullets that had supposedly been fired. We knew nothing of the site from which the bullet had been fired, essentially none of the circumstances in the first few minutes, say, 20 or 30 minutes after the President was brought in, so that our initial impressions were based upon extremely incomplete information.

Mr. Specter. What were your initial impressions?

Dr. McClelland. The initial impression that we had was that perhaps the wound in the neck, the anterior part of the neck, was an entrance wound and that it had perhaps taken a trajectory off the anterior vertebral body and again into the skull itself, exiting out the back, to produce the massive injury in the head. However, this required some straining of the imagination to imagine that this would happen, and it was much easier to explain the apparent trajectory by means of two bullets, which we later found out apparently had been fired, than by just one then, on which basis we were originally taking to explain it.

Mr. Specter. Through the use of the pronoun "we" in your last answer, to whom do you mean by "we"?

Dr. McClelland. Essentially all of the doctors that have previously been mentioned here.

Mr. Specter. Did you observe the condition of the back of the President's head?

Dr. McClelland. Well, partially; not, of course, as I say, we did not lift his head up since it was so greatly damaged. We attempted to avoid moving him any more than it was absolutely necessary, but I could see, of course, all the extent of the wound.

Mr. Specter. You saw a large opening which you have already described?

Dr. McClelland. I saw the large opening which I have described.

Mr. Specter. Did you observe any other wound on the back of the head?

Dr. McClelland. No.

Mr. Specter. Did you observe a small gunshot wound below the large opening on the back of the head?

Dr. McClelland. No.

Mr. Specter. Based on the experience that you have described for us with gunshot wounds and your general medical experience, would you characterize the description of the wound that Dr. Perry gave you as being a wound of entrance or a wound of exit, or was the description which you got from Dr. Perry and Dr. Baxter and Dr. Carrico who were there before, equally consistent with whether or not it was a wound of entrance or a wound of exit, or how would you characterize it in your words?

Dr. McClelland. I would say it would be equally consistent with either type wound, either an entrance or an exit type wound. It would be quite difficult to say—impossible.

Mr. Specter. Dr. McClelland, I show you now a statement or a report which has been furnished to the Commission by Parkland Hospital and has been identified in a previous Commission hearing as Commission Exhibit No. 392, and I direct your attention specifically to a page, "Third Report", which was made by you, and I would ask you first of all if this is your signature which appears at the bottom of Page 2, and next, whether in fact you did make this report and submit it to the authorities at Parkland Hospital?

Dr. McClelland. Yes.

Mr. Specter. And are all the facts set forth true and correct to the best of your knowledge, information and belief?

Dr. McClelland. To the best of my knowledge, yes.

Mr. Specter. Dr. McClelland, did you and I sit down together for just a few minutes before I started to take your deposition today?

Dr. McClelland. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. And I discussed this matter with you?

Dr. McClelland. Yes.

36 Mr. Specter. And, during the course of our conversations at that time, did we cover the same material in question form here and to which you have responded in answer form with the court reporter here today?

Dr. McClelland. Yes.

Mr. Specter. And has the information which you have given me on the record been the same as that which you gave me off of the record in advance?

Dr. McClelland. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Do you have any interest, Dr. McClelland in reading your testimony over or signing it at the end, or would you be willing to waive any such signature of the testimony?

Dr. McClelland. I would be willing to waive my signature.

Mr. Specter. Thank you so much for coming and giving us your deposition today.

Dr. McClelland. All right, thank you.


TESTIMONY OF DR. ROBERT M. McCLELLAND RESUMED

The testimony of Dr. Robert M. McClelland was taken at 3:25 p.m., on March 25, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. Specter. May the record show that Dr. Robert M. McClelland has returned to have a brief additional deposition concerning a translation of "L' Express" which has been called to my attention in the intervening time which has elapsed between March 21, when I took Dr. McClelland's deposition on the first occasion, and today.

Dr. McClelland, will you raise your right hand? Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you will give to the President's Commission in this deposition proceeding will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Dr. McClelland. I do.

Mr. Specter. Dr. McClelland, I show you a translation from the French, of the magazine, "L' Express" issue of February 20, 1964, and ask you if you would read this item, with particular emphasis on a reference to a quotation or statement made by you to a reporter from the St. Louis Post Dispatch.

Dr. McClelland. (Examined instrument referred to.)

Mr. Specter. Now, have you had an opportunity to read over that excerpt?

Dr. McClelland. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Did you talk to a reporter from the St. Louis Post Dispatch about this matter?

Dr. McClelland. Yes.

Mr. Specter. And what was his name?

Dr. McClelland. Richard Dudman.

Mr. Specter. And when did you have that conversation with Mr. Dudman?

Dr. McClelland. As well as I recall, it was the day after the assassination, as nearly as I can recall, but I'm not certain about that.

Mr. Specter. Will you tell me as closely as you remember what he said to you and you said to him, please?

Dr. McClelland. The main point he seemed to be making was to attempt to define something about the wound, the nature of the wound, and as near as I can recall, I indicated to him that the wound was a small undamaged—appearing punctate area in the skin of the neck, the anterior part of the neck, which had the appearance of the usual entrance wound of a bullet, but that this certainly could not be—you couldn't make a statement to that effect with any complete degree of certainty, though we were, as I told him, experienced in seeing wounds of this nature, and usually felt that we could tell the difference between an entrance and an exit wound, and this was, I think, in essence what I told him about the nature of the wound.

37 Mr. Specter. Now, had you actually observed the wound prior to the time the tracheotomy was performed on that neck wound?

Dr. McClelland. No; my knowledge of the entrance wound, as I stated, in my former deposition, was merely from what Dr. Perry told me when I entered the room and began putting on a pair of surgical gloves to assist with the tracheotomy.

Dr. Perry looked up briefly and said that they had made an incision and were in the process of making an incision in the neck, which extended through the middle of the wound in question in the front of the neck.

Mr. Specter. Now, you have just characterized it in that last answer as an entrance wound.

Dr. McClelland. Well, perhaps I shouldn't say the wound anyway, not the entrance wound—that might be a slip of the tongue.

Mr. Specter. Do you have a firm opinion at this time as to whether it is an entrance wound or exit wound or whatever?

Dr. McClelland. Of course, my opinion now would be colored by everything that I've heard about it and seen since, but I'll say this, if I were simply looking at the wound again and had seen the wound in its unchanged state, and which I did not, and, of course, as I say, it had already been opened up by the tracheotomy incision when I saw the wound—but if I saw the wound in its state in which Dr. Perry described it to me, I would probably initially think this were an entrance wound, knowing nothing about the circumstances as I did at the time, but I really couldn't say—that's the whole point. This would merely be a calculated guess, and that's all, not knowing anything more than just seeing the wound itself.

Mr. Specter. But did you, in fact, see the wound prior to the time the incision was made?

Dr. McClelland. No.

Mr. Specter. So that any preliminary thought you had even, would be based upon what you had been told by Dr. Perry?

Dr. McClelland. That's right.

Mr. Specter. Now, did you tell Mr. Dudman of the St. Louis Post Dispatch that you did not in fact see the wound in the neck, but your only information of it came from what Dr. Perry had told you?

Dr. McClelland. I don't recall whether I told him that or not. I really don't remember whether I said I had seen the wound myself or whether I was merely referring to our sort of collective opinion of it, or whether I told him I had not seen the wound and was merely going by Dr. Perry's report of it to me. I don't recall now, this far away in time exactly what I said to him.

Mr. Specter. Dr. McClelland, I want to ask you a few additional questions, and some of these questions may duplicate questions which I asked you last Saturday, and the reason for that is, we have not yet had a chance to transcribe the deposition of last Saturday, so I do not have before me the questions I asked you at that time and the answers you gave, and since last Saturday I have taken the depositions of many, many doctors on the same topics, so it is not possible for me to be absolutely certain of the specific questions which I asked you at that time, but permit me to ask you one or several more questions on the subject.

First, how many bullets do you think were involved in inflicting the wounds on President Kennedy which you observed?

Dr. McClelland. At the present time, you mean, or at the immediate moment?

Mr. Specter. Well, take the immediate moment and then the present time.

Dr. McClelland. At the moment, of course, it was our impression before we had any other information from any other source at all, when we were just confronted with the acute emergency, the brief thoughts that ran through our minds were that this was one bullet, that perhaps entered through the front of the neck and then in some peculiar fashion which we really had, as I mentioned the other day, to strain to explain to ourselves, had coursed up the front of the vertebra and into the base of the skull and out the rear of the skull.

This would have been a very circuitous route for the bullet to have made, so that when we did find later on what the circumstances were surrounding the38 assassination, this was much more readily explainable to ourselves that the two wounds were made by two separate bullets.

Mr. Specter. And what is your view or opinion today as to how many bullets inflicted the injuries of President Kennedy?

Dr. McClelland. Two.

Mr. Specter. Now, what would be the reason for your changing your opinion in that respect?

Dr. McClelland. Oh, just simply the later reports that we heard from all sources, of all the circumstances surrounding the assassination. Certainly no further first-hand information came to me and made me change my mind in that regard.

Mr. Specter. Dr. McClelland, let me ask you to assume a few additional facts, and based on a hypothetical situation which I will put to you and I'll ask you for an opinion.

Assume, if you will, that President Kennedy was shot on the upper right posterior thorax just above the upper border of the scapula at a point 14 cm. from the tip of the right acromion process and 14 cm. below a tip of the right mastoid process, assume further that that wound of entry was caused by a 6.5-mm. missile shot out of a rifle having a muzzle velocity of approximately 2,000 feet per second, being located 160 to 250 feet away from President Kennedy, that the bullet entered on the point that I described on the President's back, passed between two strap muscles on the posterior aspect of the President's body and moved through the fascial channel without violating the pleura cavity, and exited in the midline lower third anterior portion of the President's neck, would the hole which Dr. Perry described to you on the front side of the President's neck be consistent with the hole which such a bullet might make in such a trajectory through the President's body?

Dr. McClelland. Yes; I think so.

Mr. Specter. And what would your reasoning be for thinking that that would be a possible hole of exit on those factors as I have outlined them to you?

Dr. McClelland. Well, I think my reasoning would be basically that the missile was traveling mainly through soft tissue, rather than exploding from a bony chamber and that by the time it reached the neck that it had already lost, because of the distance from which it was fired, even though the muzzle velocity was as you stated—would have already lost a good deal of its initial velocity and kinetic strength and therefore would have perhaps made, particularly, if it were a fragment of the bullet as bullets do sometimes fragment, could have made a small hole like this in exiting. It certainly could have done that.

Mr. Specter. What would have happened then to the other portion of the bullet if it had fragmented?

Dr. McClelland. It might have been left along, or portions of it along the missile track—sometimes will be left scattered up and down this. Other fragments will maybe scatter in the wound and sometimes there will be multiple fragments and sometimes maybe only a small fragment out of the main bullet, sometimes a bullet will split in half—this is extremely difficult for me to say just what would happen in a case like that.

Mr. Specter. Well, assuming this situation—that the bullet did not fragment, because the autopsy report shows no fragmentation, that is, it cannot show the absence of fragmentation, but we do know that there were no bullets left in the body at any point, so that no fragment is left in.

Dr. McClelland. I think even then you could make the statement that this wound could have resulted from this type bullet fired through this particular mass of soft tissue, losing that much velocity before it exited from the body. Where you would expect to see this really great hole that is left behind would be, for instance, from a very high velocity missile fired at close range with a heavy caliber bullet, such as a .45 pistol fired at close range, which would make a small entrance hole, relatively, and particularly if it entered some portion of the anatomy such as the head, where there was a sudden change in density from the brain to the skull cavity, as it entered. As it left the body, it would still have a great deal of force behind it and would blow up a large segment of tissue as it exited. But I don't think the bullet of this nature fired from that distance and going through this large area of homogenous soft tissue would necessarily39 make the usual kind of exit wound like I just described, with a close range high velocity heavy caliber bullet.

This is why it would be difficult to say with certainty as has been implied in some newspaper articles that quoted me, that you could tell for sure that this was an entrance or an exit wound. I think this was blown up a good deal.

Mr. Specter. Dr. McClelland, why wasn't the President's body turned over?

Dr. McClelland. The President's body was not turned over because the initial things that were done as in all such cases of extreme emergency are to first establish an airway and second, to stop hemorrhage and replace blood, so that these were the initial things that were carried out immediately without taking time to do a very thorough physical examination, which of course would have required that these other emergency measures not be done immediately.

Mr. Specter. Did you make any examination of the President's back at all?

Dr. McClelland. No.

Mr. Specter. Was any examination of the President's back made to your knowledge?

Dr. McClelland. Not here—no.

Mr. Specter. Do you have anything to add which you think might be helpful in any way to the Commission?

Dr. McClelland. No; I think not except again to emphasize perhaps that some of our statements to the press about the nature of the wound may have been misleading, possibly—probably because of our fault in telling it in such a way that they misinterpreted our certainty of being able to tell entrance from exit wounds, which as we say, we generally can make an educated guess about these things but cannot be certain about them. I think they attributed too much certainty to us about that.

Mr. Specter. Now, have you talked to anyone from the Federal Government about this matter since I took your deposition last Saturday?

Dr. McClelland. No.

Mr. Specter. And did you and I chat for a moment or two with my showing you this translation of "L' Express" prior to the time we went on the record here?

Dr. McClelland. Yes.

Mr. Specter. And is the information which you gave to me in response to my questions the same that we put on the record here?

Dr. McClelland. To the best of my knowledge—yes.

Mr. Specter. Thank you very much, Dr. McClelland.

Dr. McClelland. All right. Thank you.


TESTIMONY OF DR. CHARLES RUFUS BAXTER

The testimony of Dr. Charles Rufus Baxter was taken at 11:15 a.m., on March 24, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. Specter. May the record show that Dr. Charles Baxter is present in response to a letter requesting him to appear and give his deposition. For the record I shall state that the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy is investigating all facets of the shooting, including the medical treatment performed on President Kennedy.

Dr. Baxter has been asked to give a deposition on his participation in connection with the care and medical treatment of President Kennedy, and with that statement of purpose, would you please stand up, Dr. Baxter, and raise your right hand.

Do you solemnly swear the testimony you give before the President's Commission in the course of this deposition proceeding will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

40 Dr. Baxter. I do.

Mr. Specter. Would you state your full name, please?

Dr. Baxter. Charles Rufus Baxter.

Mr. Specter. What is your profession, sir?

Dr. Baxter. I am a medical doctor of surgery, general surgeon.

Mr. Specter. Will you outline briefly your educational background?

Dr. Baxter. University of Texas—1948 through 1950. Southwestern Medical School, 1950 through 1954, 1955 straight medicine internship, 1956 medicine residency—internal medicine residency. 1956 through 1958, surgical research at Brooke Army Medical Center, 1958 through 1964—surgical residency, and 1964 through the present—this is 1964, I got out of the Army—in 1958, 1958 through 1962—surgery residency, and 1962 until now, assistant professor of surgery.

Mr. Specter. And are you board certified, Doctor?

Dr. Baxter. Yes.

Mr. Specter. And what boards have you passed?

Dr. Baxter. The American Board of Surgeons.

Mr. Specter. And what year were you so certified?

Dr. Baxter. 1963.

Mr. Specter. And what is your specific title at the medical school?

Dr. Baxter. Assistant professor of surgery.

Mr. Specter. Did you have occasion to aid in the treatment of President Kennedy at Parkland Hospital?

Dr. Baxter. Yes.

Mr. Specter. And will you outline briefly the circumstances surrounding your being called to render such assistance?

Dr. Baxter. I was conducting the student health service in the hours of 12 to 1 and was contacted there by the supervisor of the emergency room, who told me that the President was on the way to the emergency room, having been shot.

I went on a dead run to the emergency room as fast as I could and it took me about 3 or 4 minutes to get there.

Mr. Specter. Approximately what time did you arrive at the emergency room?

Dr. Baxter. I think it was 12:40—thereabouts.

Mr. Specter. And who was present at that time?

Dr. Baxter. Dr. Carrico and Dr. Jones and Dr. Jenkins—several nurses.

Mr. Specter. Can you identify the nurses?

Dr. Baxter. Yes; Mrs. Nelson—and who else? There were two or three others whose names—Miss Henchliffe was there.

Mr. Specter. Miss Bowron?

Dr. Baxter. Who?

Mr. Specter. Was Miss Bowron there?

Dr. Baxter. Yes; I believe so.

Mr. Specter. Were any other nurses there?

Dr. Baxter. One or two more, but I'm not sure of their names.

Mr. Specter. Can you identify any other doctors who were there at that time?

Dr. Baxter. Oh, let's see—I'm not sure whether the others came before or after I did. There was Crenshaw, Peters, and Kemp Clark, Dr. Bashour finally came. I believe Jackie Hunt—yes—she was, I believe she was the anesthesiologist who came.

Mr. Specter. Was Dr. Don Curtis there?

Dr. Baxter. I'm not sure—I just don't remember.

Mr. Specter. When you arrived, what did you observe as to the condition of the President?

Dr. Baxter. He was very obviously in extremis. There was a large gaping wound in the skull which was covered at that time with blood, and its extent was not immediately determined. His eyes were bulging, the pupils were fixed and dilated and deviated outward, both pupils were deviated laterally. At that time his breathing was being assisted so that whether he was breathing on his own or not, I couldn't determine.

Mr. Specter. In what way was his breathing being assisted?

Dr. Baxter. With an anesthesia machine.

41 Mr. Specter. Would you continue to describe what you observed as to his condition?

Dr. Baxter. There were no pulses that I could feel present. The anesthesiologist told me that he did still have a heartbeat.

Mr. Specter. Who is that who said that to you?

Dr. Baxter. Well, I believe this was Carrico who said that his heart was still beating. There was present at the time two intravenous catheters in place with fluids running. We were informed at that time—well, having looked over the rest of the body, the only other wound was in his neck, that we saw.

Dr. Carrico said that he had observed a tracheal laceration. At that moment Dr. Jones, I believe, was placing in a left anterior chest tube because of this information. We proceeded at that time with a tracheotomy.

Mr. Specter. Who performed the tracheotomy?

Dr. Baxter. Dr. Perry and myself, with the assistance of Dr. McClelland, and I believe that's all—there may have been one more person that held the retractor.

Mr. Specter. What else, if anything, did you do for President Kennedy at that time?

Dr. Baxter. During the tracheotomy, I helped with the insertion of a right anterior chest tube, and then helped Dr. Perry complete the tracheotomy. At that point none of us could hear a heartbeat present. Apparently this had ceased during the tracheotomy and the chest tube placement.

We then gave him or Dr. Perry and Dr. Clark alternated giving him closed chest cardiac massage only until we could get a cardioscope hooked up to tell us if there were any detectible heartbeat electrically present, at least, and there was none, and we discussed at that moment whether we should open the chest to attempt to revive him, while the closed chest massage was going on, and we had an opportunity to look at his head wound then and saw that the damage was beyond hope, that is, in a word—literally the right side of his head had been blown off. With this and the observation that the cerebellum was present—a large quantity of brain was present on the cart, well—we felt that such an additional heroic attempt was not warranted, and we did not pronounce him dead but ceased our efforts, and awaited the priest and last rites before we pronounced him dead.

Mr. Specter. Did the priest then arrive to perform the last rites?

Dr. Baxter. Yes.

Mr. Specter. At what time was he pronounced dead?

Dr. Baxter. As I recall, it was 1:08, I'm not sure, it may have been that that was Oswald.

Mr. Specter. But it was approximately 1 o'clock? Then, could the time of death be fixed with any precision?

Dr. Baxter. I don't think so—the time elapsing in all of this resuscitation and the time the heart actually ceased, I don't think one could be very sure of it. It was sometime between a quarter to 1 and 1 o'clock.

Mr. Specter. Have you now described all of the efforts which were made to save the life of the President?

Dr. Baxter. Only with the exception, I think, of the fluids that were administered. He was given hydrocortisone because of his previous medical condition. He was given no negative blood because the blood loss was rather fierce and, I believe that's all.

Mr. Specter. What other doctors arrived during the course of the treatment, in addition to those whom you have already mentioned?

Dr. Baxter. I don't recall—I know that there were more doctors present in the room, but their names, I'm not sure of. The reason I'm not sure is because we had some of the same crew and a different crew on the Governor and on Oswald, and I'm afraid that I've gotten them mixed up.

Mr. Specter. Now, will you describe in as much particularity as you can the nature of the head wound?

Dr. Baxter. The only wound that I actually saw—Dr. Clark examined this above the manubrium of the sternum, the sternal notch. This wound was in temporal parietal plate of bone laid outward to the side and there was a large area, oh, I would say 6 by 8 or 10 cm. of lacerated brain oozing from this wound,42 part of which was on the table and made a rather massive blood loss mixed with it and around it.

Mr. Specter. Did you notice any bullet hole below that large opening at the top of the head?

Dr. Baxter. No; I personally did not.

Mr. Specter. Will you describe with as much particularity as you can the wound which you noticed on the President's neck?

Dr. Baxter. The wound on the neck was approximately an inch and a half above the manubrium of the sternum, the sternal notch. This wound was in my estimation, 4 to 5 mm. in widest diameter and was a spherical wound. The edges of it—the size of the wound is measured by the hole plus the damaged skin around the area, so that it was a very small wound. And, it was directly in the midline. Now, this wound was excised in the performance of the tracheotomy and on the entry into the deeper tissues of the neck, there was considerable contusion of the muscles of the anterior neck and a moderate amount of bleeding around the trachea. The trachea was deviated slightly, I believe, to the left.

Our tracheotomy incision was made in the second tracheal ring which was immediately above the area of damage—where we thought the damaged area of the trachea was, which we did not dissect out, but once the endrotracheal tube was placed, the tracheotomy tube was placed into the trachea, it was below this tear in the trachea, and gave us good control or perfect control of respiration.

Mr. Specter. Were the characteristics of the wound on the neck sufficient to enable you to form an opinion with reasonable medical certainty as to what was the cause of the hole?

Dr. Baxter. Well, the wound was, I think, compatible with a gunshot wound. It did not appear to be a jagged wound such as one would expect with a very high velocity rifle bullet. We could not determine, or did not determine at that time whether this represented an entry or an exit wound. Judging from the caliber of the rifle that we later found or become acquainted with, this would more resemble a wound of entry. However, due to the density of the tissues of the neck and depending upon what a bullet of such caliber would pass through, the tissues that it would pass through on the way to the neck, I think that the wound could well represent either exit or entry wound.

Mr. Specter. Assuming some factors in addition to those which you personally observed, Dr. Baxter, what would your opinion be if these additional facts were present: First, the President had a bullet wound of entry on the right posterior thorax just above the upper border of the scapula with the wound measuring 7 by 4 mm. in oval shape, being 14 cm. from the tip of the right acromion process and 14 cm. below the tip of the right mastoid process—assume this is the set of facts, that the wound just described was caused by a 6.5 mm. bullet shot from approximately 160 to 250 feet away from the President, from a weapon having a muzzle velocity of approximately 2,000 feet per second, assuming as a third factor that the bullet passed through the President's body, going in between the strap muscles of the shoulder without violating the pleura space and exited at a point in the midline of the neck, would the hole which you saw on the President's throat be consistent with an exit point, assuming the factors which I have just given to you?

Dr. Baxter. Although it would be unusual for a high velocity missile of this type to cause a wound as you have described, the passage through tissue planes of this density could have well resulted in the sequence which you outline; namely, that the anterior wound does represent a wound of exit.

Mr. Specter. What would be the considerations which, in your mind, would make it, as you characterized it, unlikely?

Dr. Baxter. It would be unlikely because the damage that the bullet would create would be—first its speed would create a shock wave which would damage a larger number of tissues, as in its path, it would tend to strike, or usually would strike, tissues of greater density than this particular missile did and would then begin to tumble and would create larger jagged—the further it went, the more jagged would be the damage that it created; so that ordinarily there would have been a rather large wound of exit.

43 Mr. Specter. But relating the situation as I hypothesized it for you?

Dr. Baxter. Then it is perfectly understandable that this wound of exit was not of any greater magnitude than it was.

Mr. Specter. Dr. Baxter, is there a channel through which the bullet could have passed in the general direction which I have described to you where there would be very few tissues and virtually no tissues of great density?

Dr. Baxter. Yes; passing through the fascial plane which you have described, it could well not have these things happen to it, so that it would pass directly through—almost as if passing through a sheet of paper and the wound of exit would be no larger than the wound we saw.

Mr. Specter. What would the situation there be as to the shock wave which you have heretofore described?

Dr. Baxter. There would be a large amount of tissue damage which is not ordinarily seen immediately after a bullet has passed through. This is damage that is recognized several days later.

Mr. Specter. What causes the shock waves there, Doctor?

Dr. Baxter. This is just the velocity imparting pressure to surrounding tissues which damages them. It does not show, however, in the early course after a missile has passed through.

Mr. Specter. Well, would the shock waves have any effect upon the size, and nature of the hole of exit?

Dr. Baxter. No.

Mr. Specter. And if the bullet passed through the fascial plane without striking tissues of great density, would it have a tendency to tumble at all?

Dr. Baxter. No, it would not.

Mr. Specter. What has your experience been, if any, Doctor, with gunshot wounds?

Dr. Baxter. For the past 6 years—we admit and treat, I would estimate, around 500 gunshot wounds per year—thereabouts.

Mr. Specter. Have you ever had any formal training in gunshot wounds?

Dr. Baxter. Only that I received in the Army, with demonstration of various velocities and that type missile wounds.

Mr. Specter. Where was President Kennedy lying when you first saw him, Dr. Baxter?

Dr. Baxter. On the cart, on the emergency cart in trauma room 1.

Mr. Specter. Was he ever taken off of that cart from the time you first saw him until the time he was pronounced dead?

Dr. Baxter. No.

Mr. Specter. Was he ever turned over?

Dr. Baxter. No.

Mr. Specter. Would your examination have been conducted in any different way had this particular victim not been the President of the United States?

Dr. Baxter. I think—yes—in that we would have, particularly, postmortem examined the body much more carefully than we did. We would certainly have undressed him completely and determined all of the direction of the wounds at the time. This did not seem feasible under the circumstances.

Mr. Specter. Why was it not feasible under the circumstances?

Dr. Baxter. Mrs. Kennedy was in the room, there was a large number of people in the room by that time—Secret Service Agents, the priests and so on. As soon as the President was pronounced dead, the Secret Service more or less—well, requested that we clear the room and leave them with the President's body, which was done. Everything that the Secret Service wished was carried out.

Mr. Specter. What was that?

Dr. Baxter. Everything that the Secret Service asked us to do, we did, as rapidly as possible and this was one of their requests.

In addition, I must say that the emotional condition of all of us at that time was such that probably we would not—we didn't feel that we should do any more, since we were certain that autopsy would take care of all that we were going to miss.

Mr. Specter. Did the emotional situation have any effect in your professional opinion on the quality of the medical care which was rendered to the President?

44 Dr. Baxter. No; none at all. We, I think, everyone present in the room was certainly emotionally involved in the care of the President, but in no instance did I see less than the most meticulous and best judgment used in the care of the President.

Mr. Specter. And what, in your opinion, was the cause of death, Dr. Baxter?

Dr. Baxter. Gunshot wound to the head.

Mr. Specter. Would you have an opinion as to whether or not President Kennedy would have survived the gunshot wound which you observed in the neck?

Dr. Baxter. We saw no evidence that it had struck anything in the neck that would not be well taken care of by simply—by the tracheotomy and chest tubes.

Mr. Specter. Did you find any bullets in the President's body?

Dr. Baxter. No, we did not.

Mr. Specter. Any fragments of bullets in the President's body?

Mr. Baxter. No, sir.

Mr. Specter. Dr. Baxter, I now show you Commission Exhibit 392, which has been heretofore identified in Commission Proceedings as the report from Parkland Memorial Hospital, and I now call your attention to a page which purports to bear your signature, and a written report which you rendered under date of November 22, 1963. I ask you, first of all, if that is your signature?

Dr. Baxter. Yes.

Mr. Specter. And, if this is the report which you submitted?

Dr. Baxter. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Do you have any other writings or notes of any sort concerning your care of President Kennedy?

Dr. Baxter. No.

Mr. Specter. Will you read into the record, Dr. Baxter, the contents of your report, because it is a little hard to read in spots?

Dr. Baxter. "I was contacted at approximately 12:40 that the President was on the way to the Emergency Room, having been shot. On arrival there, I found an endotracheal tube in place with assisted respirations, a left chest tube being inserted, and cutdowns going in one leg and in the left arm.

The President had a wound in the midline of the neck. On first observation of the remaining wounds, the temporal and parietal bones were missing and the brain was lying on the table with extensive lacerations and contusions. The pupils were fixed and deviated laterally and dilated. No pulse was detectable, respirations were (as noted) being supplemented. A tracheotomy was performed by Dr. Perry and I and a chest tube inserted into the right chest (second interspace anteriorly). Meanwhile, 2 pints of O negative blood was administered by pump without response. When all of these measures were complete, no heartbeat could be detected, closed chest massage was performed until a cardioscope could be attached, which revealed no cardiac activity was obtained.

Due to the extensive and irreparable brain damage which was detected, no further attempt to resuscitate the heart was made."

Mr. Specter. And that bears your signature?

Dr. Baxter. Charles R. Baxter, M.D., assistant professor of surgery, Southwestern Medical School, University of Texas.

Mr. Specter. Dr. Baxter, has any representative of the Federal Government ever talked to you about this matter prior to today?

Dr. Baxter. The only person was a Secret Service Agent about—approximately three weeks ago who asked me if I had any additional written comments anywhere or had made any writings on the medical treatment of the President, and the answer was "No."

Mr. Specter. Now, prior to the time that the court reporter started to transcribe my questions and your answers, did you and I briefly discuss this deposition proceeding, its purpose and the questions which I would ask you?

Dr. Baxter. Yes.

Mr. Specter. And are the answers given on the record here the same as you gave me in our brief conversation before the transcription was started?

Dr. Baxter. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Do you have anything to add which you think might be helpful in any way to the work of the Commission?

45 Dr. Baxter. No.

Mr. Specter. Thank you very much for coming, Dr. Baxter.

Dr. Baxter. Thank you.


TESTIMONY OF DR. MARION THOMAS JENKINS

The testimony of Dr. Marion Thomas Jenkins was taken at 5:30 p.m., on March 25, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. Specter. May the record show that Dr. M. T. Jenkins has appeared in response to a letter request in connection with the inquiry of the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy, to testify concerning his observations and medical treatment performed by him on President Kennedy, and with this preliminary statement of purpose, would you stand up, please, Dr. Jenkins, and raise your right hand.

Do you solemnly swear the testimony you give before the President's Commission in this deposition proceeding, will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Dr. Jenkins. I do.

Mr. Specter. Would you state your full name for the record, please?

Dr. Jenkins. Marion Thomas Jenkins.

Mr. Specter. What is your profession, please?

Dr. Jenkins. I'm a physician.

Mr. Specter. Are you licensed by the State of Texas to practice medicine?

Dr. Jenkins. Yes.

Mr. Specter. And what is your specialty, Dr. Jenkins?

Dr. Jenkins. Anesthesiology.

Mr. Specter. Will you outline your educational background for me, please?

Dr. Jenkins. I am a graduate of the University of Texas in 1937. I have a B.A. degree and an M.D. degree from the University of Texas Medical Branch at Galveston in 1940, rotating internship at the University of Kansas Hospital, Kansas City, Kans., 1940–41; Assistant Residency in Internal Medicine, John Sealy Hospital in Galveston, Tex., 1941–42; active duty in the U.S. Navy as a Medical Officer, 1942 to 1946; Resident in Surgery—Parkland Hospital, Dallas, 1946–47; Resident in anesthesiology in the Massachusetts General Hospital, Boston, 1947–48; and Director of the Department of Anesthesiology, Parkland Hospital and Parkland Memorial Hospital, 1948 to the present; Professor and Chairman of the Department of Anesthesiology, University of Texas, Southwestern Medical School—since 1951. Diplomate—other certification, do you want this?

Mr. Specter. Yes, what Boards are you certified?

Dr. Jenkins. I am a Diplomate of the American Board of Anesthesiology and also fellow of the American College of Anesthesiologists.

Mr. Specter. And what year were you certified by the American Board?

Dr. Jenkins. 1952.

Mr. Specter. Did you have occasion to assist in the treatment of President Kennedy on November 22, 1963?

Dr. Jenkins. Yes.

Mr. Specter. And will you relate briefly the circumstances surrounding your being called into that case?

Dr. Jenkins. Well, I was in the dining room with other members of the hospital staff when we heard the Chief of Surgery, Dr. Tom Shires, being paged "Stat." This is a rather unusual call, for the Chief of any service to be called "Stat" as this is the emergency call.

Mr. Specter. What does that mean, "Stat"?

Dr. Jenkins. "Stat" means emergency, that's just a code word that has been used for years in medical terms. He was paged twice this way, and one of the46 surgical residents, Dr. Ronald Jones, answered the phone, thinking something bad must be up and that he would call the Chief of Surgery. I was sitting near the telephone and Dr. Jones immediately came back by with a very anguished look and the color was drained from his face—I'm sure I had that impression, and he said, "The President has been shot and is on his way to the hospital." At the same time we heard the sirens of the ambulance as they turned into the driveway from Harry Hines into the hospital drive, and it was obvious that this was the car coming in because the ambulance sirens usually stop in the street, but these came on clear to the building.

Mr. Specter. That's Harry Hines Boulevard right in front of the hospital?

Dr. Jenkins. Yes; I ran up the stairs to the Anesthesia Department, that's on the second floor—one floor above the dining room, where I was, and notified two members of the Department, the first two I saw, my Chief Associate, Dr. A. H. Giesecke, Jr., and Dr. Jackie Hunt, that the President had been shot and was being brought to the emergency room and for them to bring all the resuscitative equipment we have including an anesthesia machine. The emergency room is set up well, but we are used to working with our own equipment and I asked them to bring it down and I ran down the back stairs, two flights down, and I arrived in the emergency room just after or right behind him being wheeled in, I guess.

Mr. Specter. At about what time did you arrive at the emergency room?

Dr. Jenkins. Oh, this was around 12:30–12:35 to 12:40. I shouldn't be indefinite about this—in our own specialty practice, we watch the clock closely, and there are many things we have to keep up with, but I didn't get that time exactly, I'll admit.

Mr. Specter. Who was present at the time of your arrival in the emergency room, if anyone?

Dr. Jenkins. The hallway was loaded with people.

Mr. Specter. What medical personnel were in attendance?

Dr. Jenkins. Including Mrs. Kennedy, I recognized, and Secret Service men, I didn't know whether to block the way or get out of it, as it turned out. Dr. James Carrico and Dr. Dulany—Dick Dulany, I guess you have his name, and several nurses were in the room.

Mr. Specter. Could you identify the nurses?

Dr. Jenkins. Well, not really. I could identify them only having later looked around and identified from my own record that I have, the names of all who were there later. Now, whether they are the same ones when I first went there, I don't know. I have all the names in my report, it seemed to me.

Mr. Specter. Could you now identify all of the nurses from your later observations of them?

Dr. Jenkins. Well, I can identify who was in there at the close of the procedure, that is, the doctors, as well as those who were helping.

Mr. Specter. Fine, would you do that for us, please?

Dr. Jenkins. These included a Mrs. or Miss Patricia Hutton and Miss Diana Bowron, B-o-w-r-o-n (spelling), and a Miss Henchliffe—I don't know her first name, but I do know it is Henchliffe.

Mr. Specter. Margaret?

Dr. Jenkins. Margaret—certainly. Those three—there were probably some student nurses too, whom I didn't recognize. Shall I continue?

Mr. Specter. Yes, please. Have you now covered all the people you recollect as being in the room?

Dr. Jenkins. Well, as I came into the room, I saw only the—actually—you know, in the haste of the coming of the President, two doctors whom I recognized, and there were other people and I have identified all I remember.

Mr. Specter. What did you observe as to the President's condition when you arrived in the emergency room?

Dr. Jenkins. Well, I was aware of what he was in an agonal state. This is not a too unfamiliar state that we see in the Service, as much trauma as we see, that is, he had the agonal respiratory gasp made up of jerking movements of the mylohyoid group of muscles. These are referred to sometimes as chin jerk, tracheal tug or agonal muscles of respiration. He had this47 characteristic of respiration. His eyes were opened and somewhat exophthalmic and color was greatly suffused, cyanotic—a purplish cyanosis.

Still, we have patients in the state, as far as cyanosis and agonal type respiration, who are resuscitatable. Of course, you don't stop at this time and think, "Well, this is a hopeless circumstance,"—because one in this state can often be resusciated—this represents the activities prior to one's demise sometimes, and if it can be stopped, such as the patient is oxygenated again and circulation reinstituted, he can be saved.

Dr. Carrico had just introduced an endotracheal tube, I'm very proud of him for this because it's not as easy as it sounds. At times and under the circumstances—it was harder—he had just completed a 3-month rotation on the anesthesiology service, and I thought this represented good background training for a smart individual, and he told me he had a cuff on the endotracheal tube and he introduced it below the wound.

The reason I said this, of course, this is a reflex—there is a tube, the endotracheal tube, if it is pushed down a little too far it can go into the right main stem of the bronchus impairing respiration from both lungs, or both chests.

There was in the room an intermittent positive pressure breathing apparatus, which can be used to respire for a patient. As I connected this up, however, Dr. Carrico and I connected it up to give oxygen by artificial respiration, Dr. Giesecke and Dr. Hunt arrived on the scene with the anesthesia machine and I connected it up instead with something I am more familiar with—not for anesthesia, I must insist on that—it was for the oxygenation, the ability to control ventilation with 100 percent oxygen.

As I came in there, other people came in also. This is my recollection. Now, by this time I was in familiar surroundings, despite the anguish of the circumstance.

Despite the unusual circumstance, in terms of the distinguished personage who was the patient, I think the people who had gathered or who had congregated were so accustomed to doing resuscitative procedures of this nature that they knew where to fit into the resuscitation team without having a preconceived or predirected plan, because, as obviously—some people were doing things not necessarily in their specialty, but there was the opening and there was the necessity for this being done.

There were three others who came in as I did who recognized at once the neck wound, in fact, where the wound was, would indicate that we would have serious pulmonary problems unless a tracheotomy tube was put in. This is one way of avoiding pushing air out through a fractured trachea and down into each chest cavity, which would cause a pneumothorax or a collapse of the lungs. These were doctors Malcolm Perry, Charley Baxter, and Robert McClelland, who with Dr. Carrico's help, I believe, started the tracheotomy.

About this time Drs. Kemp Clark and Paul Peters came in, and Dr. Peters because of the appearance of the right chest, the obvious physical characteristics of a pneumothorax, put in a closed chest drainage—chest tube. Because I felt no peripheral pulse and was not aware of any pulse, I reported this to Dr. Clark and he started closed chest cardiac massage.

There were other people—one which started an I.V. in a cutdown in the right leg and one a cutdown in the left arm. Two of my department connected up the cardioscope, in which we had electrical silence on the cardioscope as Dr. Clark started closed chest massage. That's the sequence of events as I reconstructed them that day and dictated them on my report, which you have here, I think.

Mr. Specter. Speaking of your report, Dr. Jenkins, permit me to show you a group of papers heretofore identified as Commission Exhibit No. 392 which has also been identified by Mr. Price, the hospital Administrator, as being photostatic copies of original reports in his possession and controlled as Custodian of Records, and I show you what purports to be a report from you to Mr. Price, dated November 22, 1963, and ask you if in fact this 2-page report was submitted by you to Mr. Price?

Dr. Jenkins. Yes; it was.

Mr. Specter. Now, going back to the wound which you observed in the neck, did you see that wound before the tracheotomy was performed?

48 Dr. Jenkins. Yes; I did, because I was just connecting up the endotracheal tube to the machine at the time and that's when Dr. Carrico said there was a wound in the neck and I looked at it.

Mr. Specter. Would you describe that wound as specifically as you can?

Dr. Jenkins. Well, I'm afraid my description of it would not be as accurate, of course, as that of the surgeons who were doing the tracheotomy, because my look was a quick look before connecting up the endotracheal tube to the apparatus to help in ventilation and respiration for the patient, and I was aware later in the day, as I should have put it in the report, that I thought this was a wound of exit because it was not a clean wound, and by "clean" clearly demarcated, round, punctate wound which is the usual wound of an entrance wound, made by a missile and at some speed. Of course, entrance wounds with a lobbing type missile, can make a jagged wound also, but I was of the impression and I recognized I had the impression it was an exit wound. However, my mental appreciation for a wound—for the wound in the neck, I believe, was sort of—was overshadowed by recognition of the wound in the scalp and skull plate.

Mr. Specter. Have you now described the wound in the neck as specifically as you can at this moment?

Dr. Jenkins. I believe so.

Mr. Specter. Now, will you now describe the wound which you observed in the head?

Dr. Jenkins. Almost by the time I was—had the time to pay more attention to the wound in the head, all of these other activities were under way. I was busy connecting up an apparatus to respire for the patient, exerting manual pressure on the breathing bag or anesthesia apparatus, trying to feel for a pulse in the neck, and then reaching up and feeling for one in the temporal area, seeing about connecting the cardioscope or directing its being connected, and then turned attention to the wound in the head.

Now, Dr. Clark had begun closed chest cardiac massage at this time and I was aware of the magnitude of the wound, because with each compression of the chest, there was a great rush of blood from the skull wound. Part of the brain was herniated; I really think part of the cerebellum, as I recognized it, was herniated from the wound; there was part of the brain tissue, broken fragments of the brain tissue on the drapes of the cart on which the President lay.

Mr. Specter. Did you observe any wounds immediately below the massive loss of skull which you have described?

Dr. Jenkins. On the right side?

Mr. Specter. Yes, sir.

Dr. Jenkins. No—I don't know whether this is right or not, but I thought there was a wound on the left temporal area, right in the hairline and right above the zygomatic process.

Mr. Specter. The autopsy report discloses no such development, Dr. Jenkins.

Dr. Jenkins. Well, I was feeling for—I was palpating here for a pulse to see whether the closed chest cardiac massage was effective or not and this probably was some blood that had come from the other point and so I thought there was a wound there also.

Mr. Specter. At approximately what time was President Kennedy pronounced dead?

Dr. Jenkins. Well, this was pronounced, we know the exact time as 1300, according to my watch, at least, at the time.

Mr. Specter. And what, in your opinion, was the cause of death?

Dr. Jenkins. Cerebral injury—brain injury.

Mr. Specter. Was President Kennedy ever turned over during the course of this treatment at Parkland?

Dr. Jenkins. No.

Mr. Specter. Why was he not turned over, Dr. Jenkins?

Dr. Jenkins. Oh, I think this was beyond our prerogative completely. I think as we pronounced the President dead, those in attendance who were there just sort of melted away, well, I guess "melted" is the wrong word, but we felt like we were intruders and left. I'm sure that this was considerably beyond our prerogative, and the facts were we knew he had a fatal wound, and I think my49 own personal feeling was that this was—would have been meddlesome on anybody's part after death to have done any further search.

Mr. Specter. Was any examination of his back made before death, to your knowledge?

Dr. Jenkins. No, no; I'm sure there wasn't.

Mr. Specter. Did he remain on the stretcher cart at all times while he was being cared for?

Dr. Jenkins. Yes, sir.

Can I say something that isn't in the report here, or not?

Mr. Specter. Yes; let's go off the record a minute.

(Discussion off the record between Counsel Specter and the witness, Dr. Jenkins.)

Mr. Specter. May the record show that we are back on the record and Dr. Jenkins has made an interesting observation about the time of the declaration of death, and I will ask you, Dr. Jenkins, for you to repeat for the record what you have just said off the record.

Dr. Jenkins. As the resuscitative maneuvers were begun, such as "chest cardiac massage," there was with each compression of the sternum, a gush of blood from the skull wound, which indicated there was massive vascular damage in the skull and the brain, as well as brain tissue damage, and we recognized by this time that the patient was beyond the point of resuscitation, that he was in fact dead, and this was substantiated by getting a silent electrical pattern on the electrocardiogram, the cardioscope that was connected up.

However, for a period of minutes, but I can't now define exactly, since I didn't put this in a report, after we knew he was dead, we continued attempted resuscitative maneuvers.

When we saw the two priests who arrived in the corridor outside the emergency room where this was taking place, I went to the door and asked one of those—after turning over my ventilation, my respiration job to another one of my department—and asked him what is the proper time to declare one dead. That is, I am not a Catholic and I was not sure of the time for the last rites. As I remember now, he said, "The time that the soul leaves the body—is not at exactly the time that medical testimony might say that death was declared." There would be a period of time and so if we wished to declare him dead at that time they would still have the final rites.

Mr. Specter. Did they then have the final rites after the time he was declared dead medically?

Dr. Jenkins. Well, just a minute now—I suspect that was hazy to me that day—I'm not sure, it's still hazy. This was a very personal—on the part of the very anguished occasion, and Mrs. Kennedy had come back into the room and most of the people were beginning to leave because they felt like this was such a grief stricken and private affair that they should not be there. It was real intrusion even after they put forth such efforts at resuscitation and I'm not sure now whether the priests came in while I was still doing the resuscitative procedure, respiration at least, and while Dr. Clark was still doing the other. My memory is that we had stopped. I was still present, however, and that's the reason I'm not clear, because I hadn't left the room and I was still there as the rites were performed and a prayer was said.

Mr. Specter. Dr. Jenkins, would your observation of the wound and your characterization of it as an exit hole be consistent with a set of facts which I will ask you to assume for purposes of giving me your view or opinion.

Assume, first of all, if you will, that President Kennedy had a wound on the upper right posterior thorax just above the upper border of the scapula, measuring 14 cm. from the tip of the right acromion process and 14 cm. below the tip of the right mastoid process, and that the missile was a 6.5 mm. jacketed bullet fired from a weapon having a muzzle velocity of approximately 2,000 feet per second and approximately 160 to 250 feet from the President, and that after entering the President's body at the point indicated, the missile traveled between two strap muscles and through a fascia plane without violating the pleura cavity, and then struck the right side of the trachea and exited through50 the throat, would the throat wound which you observed be consistent with such a wound inflicted in the manner I have just described?

Dr. Jenkins. As far as I know, it wouldn't be inconsistent with it, Mr. Specter.

Mr. Specter. What has your experience been with gunshot wounds, that is, to what extent have you had experience with such wounds?

Dr. Jenkins. Well, having been Chief of the Anesthesia Service here for this 16 years, we have a rather large trauma emergency service, and so I see gunshot wounds many times a week. I'm afraid I couldn't hazard a guess at the moment as to how many we see a year, and I'm afraid probably if I knew, I would not like to admit to this number, but I do go further in saying that my main interest is not in the tracks of the wounds. My main interest is what physiological changes that they have caused to the patient that I am to anesthetize or a member of the department is to anesthetize, what has happened to the cardiovascular system, respiratory, and neurological, and so I am aware of the wounds of entrance and exit only by a peripheral part of my knowledge and activities during the time.

Mr. Specter. Have you ever had any formal training in ballistics or in exit wounds or entrance wounds—bullet wounds?

Dr. Jenkins. No, I have not.

Mr. Specter. Have you talked to any representative of the Federal Government at any time prior to today?

Dr. Jenkins. Oh, there was a man whose name I don't remember now, who showed what looked like the proper credentials from the FBI, who came to ask only whether the report I had submitted to Mr. Price for the hospital record or for Mr. Price's record constituted all the reports I had. That's the only time, and that was the extent of our conversation, I think.

Mr. Specter. And is that the only written record you have of your participation in the treatment of the President?

Dr. Jenkins. Oh, I submitted one to the Dean of the Medical School, essentially the same, and a very little more. I don't think you have that. I don't know whether you want it or not.

Mr. Specter. Yes, I would like to see it.

Dr. Jenkins. It is essentially the same report—however—can I ask you something off of the record here?

Mr. Specter. Sure.

(Discussion between Counsel Specter and the witness, Dr. Jenkins, off the record.)

Mr. Specter. The record will show that we have been off the record on a couple of matters which I am going to now put on the record, but I will ask the court reporter to identify this as Dr. Jenkins' Exhibit No. 36.

(Instrument referred to marked by the Reporter as Dr. Jenkins' Exhibit No. 36, for identification.)

Mr. Specter. I will ask you, Dr. Jenkins, for the record to identify this as a report which you submitted to Dean Gill.

Dr. Jenkins. Yes, it is.

Mr. Specter. And is this in conjunction with the report you submitted to Mr. Price—do these reports constitute all the writings you have on your participation in the treatment of President Kennedy?

Dr. Jenkins. Yes; that's right.

Mr. Specter. One of the comments we were just discussing off the record—I would like to put on the record, Dr. Jenkins, is the question as to whether or not the wound in the neck would have been fatal in your opinion, absent the head wound. What would your view of that be?

Dr. Jenkins. Well, from my knowledge of the wound in the neck, this would not have been fatal, except for one thing, and that is—you have not told me whether the wound with its point of entrance and point of exit had contacted the vertebral column in its course?

Mr. Specter. It did not.

Dr. Jenkins. In that case I would not expect this wound to have been fatal.

Mr. Specter. What is your view, Dr. Jenkins, as to whether the wounds which you observed were caused by one or two bullets?

51 Dr. Jenkins. I felt quite sure at the time that there must have been two bullets—two missiles.

Mr. Specter. And, Dr. Jenkins, what was your reason for that?

Dr. Jenkins. Because the wound with the exploded area of the scalp, as I interpreted it being exploded, I would interpret it being a wound of exit, and the appearance of the wound in the neck, and I also thought it was a wound of exit.

Mr. Specter. Have you ever changed any of your original opinions in connection with the wounds received by President Kennedy?

Dr. Jenkins. I guess so. The first day I had thought because of his pneumothorax, that his wound must have gone—that the one bullet must have traversed his pleura, must have gotten into his lung cavity, his chest cavity, I mean, and from what you say now, I know it did not go that way. I thought it did.

Mr. Specter. Aside from that opinion, now, have any of your other opinions about the nature of his wounds or the sources of the wounds been changed in any way?

Dr. Jenkins. No; one other. I asked you a little bit ago if there was a wound in the left temporal area, right above the zygomatic bone in the hairline, because there was blood there and I thought there might have been a wound there (indicating).

Mr. Specter. Indicating the left temporal area?

Dr. Jenkins. Yes; the left temporal, which could have been a point of entrance and exit here (indicating), but you have answered that for me. This was my only other question about it.

Mr. Specter. So, that those two points are the only ones on which your opinions have been changed since the views you originally formulated?

Dr. Jenkins. Yes, I think so.

Mr. Specter. On the President's injuries?

Dr. Jenkins. Yes, I think so.

Mr. Specter. Is the conversation you had with that Secret Service Agent the only time you were interviewed by anyone from the Federal Government prior to today about this subject?

Dr. Jenkins. As far as I remember—I don't believe so.

Mr. Specter. Now, you say that was the only time you were interviewed?

Dr. Jenkins. Yes, as far as I remember—I have had no formal interviews. I have been asked—there have been some people calling on the phone. As you know, there were many calls from various sources all over the country after that, wanting to know whether we had done this method of treatment or some other method and what principles we followed.

Mr. Specter. But the only one you can identify as being from the Federal Government is the one you have already related from the Secret Service?

Dr. Jenkins. Yes.

Mr. Specter. And did you and I have a very brief conversation before the deposition started today, when you gave me some of your views which you expounded and expanded upon during the course of the deposition on the record?

Dr. Jenkins. Yes.

Mr. Specter. And is there anything which you think of to add that you believe would be of some assistance or any assistance to the President's Commission in its inquiry?

Dr. Jenkins. I believe not, Mr. Specter.

Mr. Specter. Well, thank you very much, Dr. Jenkins.

Dr. Jenkins. All right.


52

TESTIMONY OF DR. RONALD COY JONES

The testimony of Dr. Ronald Coy Jones was taken at 10:20 a.m., on March 24, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. Specter. May the record show at this point that Dr. Ronald Jones has arrived in response to a letter of request to give his deposition for the President's Commission on the assassination of President Kennedy.

Dr. Jones, the purpose of the President's Commission is to investigate all the facts relating to the shooting and subsequent medical treatment of President Kennedy and we have asked you to appear to testify concerning your knowledge of that treatment.

With that statement of purpose, will you stand up and raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you give before the President's Commission during the course of this deposition proceeding will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Dr. Jones. I do.

Mr. Specter. Would you state your full name for the record, please?

Dr. Jones. Ronald Coy Jones.

Mr. Specter. What is your profession, sir?

Dr. Jones. General Surgery—resident physician.

Mr. Specter. Are you duly licensed by the State of Texas to practice medicine?

Dr. Jones. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Will you outline briefly your educational background?

Dr. Jones. I graduated—I went to undergraduate school at the University of Arkansas from 1950 to 1953, in pre-med. From 1953 through 1957, I went to medical school and graduated from the University of Tennessee in Memphis, and in 1957 through 1958 I took an internship in Los Angeles County General Hospital.

From there I went to the University of Oklahoma and took a 2-year general practice residency, 1 year, the first year, entailing a year of internal medicine and its subspecialties, and a second year of surgery and its subspecialties, which was approved by the American Board of Surgeons for 1 year of surgical training, and from 1960 until the present time I have taken an additional 4 years of general surgery at Parkland, and have served as Chief Resident of Surgery.

Mr. Specter. Did you have occasion to aid in the medical treatment of President Kennedy on November 22, 1963?

Dr. Jones. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. Would you relate briefly the circumstances surrounding your being called into the case?

Dr. Jones. I was eating lunch with Dr. Perry and I heard the operator page Dr. Tom Shires of the staff on two occasions, and the second time I answered the phone and the operator told me that the President had been shot and was being brought to the emergency room.

I turned around and immediately notified Miss Audrey Bell, who is the operating room supervisor so that any arrangements could be made for immediate surgery, and Dr. M. T. Jenkins, who is the Chief of the Anesthesiology Department. From there I went across the room and notified Dr. Perry of the shooting and we both went together to the emergency room, and it was at that time we arrived shortly after the President had been brought in.

Mr. Specter. What is your best estimate as to the time you arrived at the emergency room?

Dr. Jones. It was, I would say, around 23 or 25 minutes until 1.

Mr. Specter. And who was present, if anyone, at the time you arrived?

Dr. Jones. Dr. James Carrico, and possibly Dr. Richard Dulany, and I'm not sure that he was there or was there for just a few minutes after we arrived. I do recall seeing him there as one of the first ones.

Mr. Specter. Was any nurse present at that time?

Dr. Jones. The head nurse in the emergency room was present and——

Mr. Specter. Do you know her name?

Dr. Jones. It's left my mind right now—I know her.

Mr. Specter. Could that be Miss Henchliffe?

Dr. Jones. She was there, I believe.

Mr. Specter. Mrs. Bowron?

Dr. Jones. No—just the—

Mr. Specter. Mrs. Nelson?

53 Dr. Jones. Nelson.

Mr. Specter. Was anyone else present then, other than those whom you have already mentioned at the time you arrived?

Dr. Jones. There were three nurses there—Mrs. Nelson, Miss Henchliffe and Miss Bowron.

Mr. Specter. And were any other doctors present when you arrived?

Dr. Jones. Dr. Carrico was the only doctor other than possibly Dr. Dulany, and I do know Dr. Carrico was there when I arrived.

Mr. Specter. Was Dr. Don Curtis there when you arrived?

Dr. Jones. I didn't see him.

Mr. Specter. And who arrived with you, if you recall?

Dr. Jones. Dr. Perry.

Mr. Specter. And what did you observe the President's condition to be upon your arrival?

Dr. Jones. He appeared to be terminal, if not already expired, and Dr. Carrico said that he had seen some attempted respirations, agonal respirations, and with that history, we went ahead with emergency measures to try to restore the airway.

Mr. Specter. When you say "attempted agonal respiration," do you mean an effort by the President?

Dr. Jones. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Or, an effort by someone else to induce respiration?

Dr. Jones. No, these apparently were as Dr. Carrico saw the President was attempting to respire on his own, however, I did not personally see this in the brief seconds that I stood there before I went ahead and started work.

Mr. Specter. What is the lay definition for agonal respiration?

Dr. Jones. These are the respirations that are somewhat of a strain, that is, seen in a patient who is expiring—just very short, irregular type respirations.

Mr. Specter. Would you continue now to describe what you observed to be the President's condition?

Dr. Jones. We felt that he was in extreme shock, merely by the fact that there was no motion, that he was somewhat cyanotic, his eyes were—appeared to be fixed; there was no evidence of motion of the eyes; and we noticed that he did not have a satisfactory airway or was not breathing on his own in a satisfactory way to sustain life so that we felt that either an endotracheal tube had to be instituted immediately, which was done by Dr. Carrico. We felt that this was not adequate and since tracheotomy equipment was in the room, we felt that he would profit more by tracheotomy and that we could be certain that he was getting adequate oxygen.

Mr. Specter. What was done with respect to applying oxygen to the President then?

Dr. Jones. Well, a tracheotomy was done, and then an adapter was fitted to this tube, and we had an anesthesia machine there by this time with Dr. Jenkins available so that he could give him straight oxygen from the machine.

Mr. Specter. Did you observe anything else with respect to the President's condition at that time?

Dr. Jones. You mean as far as wounds—that he had?

Mr. Specter. Did you observe any wounds?

Dr. Jones. As we saw him the first time, we noticed that he had a small wound at the midline of the neck, just above the suprasternal notch, and this was probably no greater than a quarter of an inch in greatest diameter, and that he had a large wound in the right posterior side of the head.

Mr. Specter. When you say "we noticed," whom do you mean by that?

Dr. Jones. Well, Dr. Perry and I were the two that were there at this time observing.

Mr. Specter. Did Dr. Perry make any comment about the nature of the wound at that time? Either wound?

Dr. Jones. Not that I recall.

Mr. Specter. Will you describe as precisely as you can the nature of the head wound?

Dr. Jones. There was large defect in the back side of the head as the President lay on the cart with what appeared to be some brain hanging out of this54 wound with multiple pieces of skull noted next with the brain and with a tremendous amount of clot and blood.

Mr. Specter. Will you describe as precisely as you can the wound that you observed in the throat?

Dr. Jones. The wound in the throat was probably no larger than a quarter of an inch in diameter. There appeared to be no powder burn present, although this could have been masked by the amount of blood that was on the head and neck, although there was no obvious amount of powder present. There appeared to be a very minimal amount of disruption of interruption of the surrounding skin. There appeared to be relatively smooth edges around the wound, and if this occurred as a result of a missile, you would have probably thought it was a missile of very low velocity and probably could have been compatible with a bone fragment of either—probably exiting from the neck, but it was a very small, smooth wound.

Mr. Specter. Did you notice any lump in the throat area?

Dr. Jones. No; I didn't.

Mr. Specter. Was there any blood on the throat area in the vicinity of the wound which you have described of the throat?

Dr. Jones. Not a great deal of blood, as if in relation to the amount that was around the head—not too much.

Mr. Specter. What further action was taken by the medical team in addition to that which you have described on the tracheotomy?

Dr. Jones. Well, as Dr. Perry started the tracheotomy, I started the cut down in the left arm to insert a large polyethylene catheter, to give an I.V. so that we could give I.V. solutions as well as blood, and at the same time another doctor or two were doing some cutdowns in the lower extremities around the ankle. We made the cutdown in the left arm in the cephalic vein very rapidly and I.V. fluids were started immediately and as I was doing this, Dr. Perry was performing the tracheotomy, and it was about this time that Dr. Baxter came in and went ahead to assist Dr. Perry with the tracheotomy, and as they made a deeper incision in the neck to isolate the trachea, they thought they saw some gush of air and the possibility of a pneumothorax on one side or the other was entertained, and since I was to the left of the President, I went ahead and put in the anterior chest tube in the second intercostal space.

Mr. Specter. Was that tube fully inserted, Doctor?

Dr. Jones. I felt that the tube was fully inserted, and this was immediately connected to underwater drainage.

Mr. Specter. What do you mean by "connected to underwater drainage", Dr. Jones?

Dr. Jones. The tube is connected to a bottle whereby it aerates in the chest from a pneumothorax and as the patient breathes, the air is forced out under the water and produces somewhat of a suction so that the lung will reexpand and will not stay collapsed and this will give adequate aeration to the body, and we decided to go ahead and put in a chest tube on the opposite side; since I could not reach the opposite side due to the number of people that were working on the President. Dr. Baxter was over there helping Dr. Perry on that side, as well as Dr. Paul Peters, the assistant head of urology here, and the three of us then inserted the chest tube on the right side, primarily done by Dr. Baxter and Dr. Peters on the right side.

Mr. Specter. Then what other treatment, if any, was afforded President Kennedy?

Dr. Jones. After the tracheotomy was done, the intravenous fluid, blood was started—I believe that the President was also administered some hydrocortisone because of his history of adrenal insufficiency, and at this time an electrocardiogram had been connected and it showed no evidence of a heartbeat. Closed cardiac massage was then first begun by Dr. Perry and then I believe that after about 5 minutes no significant or no myocardial activity was present and he was pronounced dead.

Mr. Specter. What history did you refer to of President Kennedy's adrenal insufficiency?

Dr. Jones. As I recall, there had been in news that the President had several years ago been on some type of steroid therapy and that he possibly had55 Addison's disease. We had no documented evidence that he did or did not, but caution was taken nonetheless in case his insufficiency was of severe enough nature, because at the time of severe trauma a patient with adrenal insufficiency often goes into a rapid degree of adrenal insufficiency and can expire from lack of steroids being produced from the adrenal gland in such a stressed situation.

Mr. Specter. Did you obtain that history from Mrs. Kennedy, or any other person on the scene?

Dr. Jones. No.

Mr. Specter. You just relied upon what had been occurring in the news?

Dr. Jones. Yes.

Mr. Specter. What would that reaction cause, if anything, if the President had no adrenal insufficiency?

Dr. Jones. This would not cause severe effects on any organ at all if the adrenal gland were producing enough steroids.

Mr. Specter. Did any other doctors arrive during the time this treatment was going on, other than those whom you have already mentioned?

Dr. Jones. Several doctors did subsequently appear in the room—Dr. McClelland appeared shortly after Dr. Baxter, within a matter of just a very few minutes, as well as Dr. Kemp Clark, who is head of neurosurgery here.

Mr. Specter. Any other doctors?

Dr. Jones. Dr. Jenkins was there and I think these are primarily the ones that actually had any part, as far as taking care of the President, although there were some other doctors in the room.

Mr. Specter. Dr. Jones, I now hand you a report which purports to bear your signature, labeled "Summary of treatment of the President," dated November 23, 1963, which I shall now ask the Court Reporter to mark as Dr. Jones' Exhibit No. 1.

(Instrument mentioned marked by the Reporter as Dr. Jones' Exhibit No. 1, for identification.)

Mr. Specter. I ask you if this in fact is your signature?

Dr. Jones. Yes.

Mr. Specter. And I ask you if this was the report which you submitted concerning your participation of the treatment of President Kennedy?

Dr. Jones. Yes; it was.

Mr. Specter. In this report, Dr. Jones, you state the following, "Previously described severe skull and brain injury was noted as well as a small hole in anterior midline of the neck thought to be a bullet entrance wound." What led you to the thought that it was a bullet entrance wound, sir?

Dr. Jones. The hole was very small and relatively clean cut, as you would see in a bullet that is entering rather than exiting from a patient. If this were an exit wound, you would think that it exited at a very low velocity to produce no more damage than this had done, and if this were a missile of high velocity, you would expect more of an explosive type of exit wound, with more tissue destruction than this appeared to have on superficial examination.

Mr. Specter. Would it be consistent, then, with an exit wound, but of low velocity, as you put it?

Dr. Jones. Yes; of very low velocity to the point that you might think that this bullet barely made it through the soft tissues and just enough to drop out of the skin on the opposite side.

Mr. Specter. What is your experience, Doctor, if any, in the treatment of bullet wounds?

Dr. Jones. During our residency here we have approximately 1 complete year out of the 4 years on the trauma service here, and this is in addition to the 2 months that we spend every other day and every other night in the emergency room during our first year, so that we see a tremendous number of bullet wounds here in that length of time, sometimes as many as four and five a night.

Mr. Specter. Have you ever had any formal training in bullet wounds?

Dr. Jones. No.

Mr. Specter. Have you ever had occasion to observe a bullet wound which was inflicted by a missile at approximate size of a 6.5 mm. bullet which passed56 through the body of a person and exited from a neck without striking anything but soft tissue from the back through the neck, where the missile came from a weapon of the muzzle velocity of 2,000 feet per second, and the victim was in the vicinity of 160 to 250 feet from the weapon?

Dr. Jones. No; I have not seen a missile of this velocity exit in the anterior portion of the neck. I have seen it in other places of the body, but not in the neck.

Mr. Specter. What other places in the body have you seen it, Dr. Jones?

Dr. Jones. I have seen it in the extremity and here it produces a massive amount of soft tissue destruction.

Mr. Specter. Is that in the situation of struck bone or not struck bone or what?

Dr. Jones. Probably where it has struck bone.

Mr. Specter. In a situation where it strikes bone, however, the bone becomes so to speak a secondary missile, does it not, in accentuating the soft tissue damage?

Dr. Jones. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Dr. Jones, did you have any speculative thought as to accounting for the point of wounds which you observed on the President, as you thought about it when you were treating the President that day, or shortly thereafter?

Dr. Jones. With no history as to the number of times that the President had been shot or knowing the direction from which he had been shot, and seeing the wound in the midline of the neck, and what appeared to be an exit wound in the posterior portion of the skull, the only speculation that I could have as far as to how this could occur with a single wound would be that it would enter the anterior neck and possibly strike a vertebral body and then change its course and exit in the region of the posterior portion of the head. However, this was—there was some doubt that a missile that appeared to be of this high velocity would suddenly change its course by striking, but at the present—at that time, if I accounted for it on the basis of one shot, that would have been the way I accounted for it.

Mr. Specter. And would that account take into consideration the extensive damage done to the top of the President's head?

Dr. Jones. If this were the course of the missile, it probably—possibly could have accounted for it, although I would possibly expect it to do a tremendous amount of damage to the vertebral column that it hit and if this were a high velocity missile would also think that the entrance wound would probably be larger than the one that was present at the time we saw it.

Mr. Specter. Did you observe whether or not there was any damage to the vertebral column?

Dr. Jones. No, we could not see this.

Mr. Specter. Did you discuss this theory with any other doctor or doctors?

Dr. Jones. Yes; this was discussed after the assassination.

Mr. Specter. With whom?

Dr. Jones. With Dr. Perry—is the only one that I recall specifically, and that was merely as to how many times the President was shot, because even immediately after death, within a matter of 30 minutes, the possibility of a second gunshot wound was entertained and that possibly he had been shot more than once.

Mr. Specter. Did you observe any wound on the President's back?

Dr. Jones. No.

Mr. Specter. Was the President ever turned over?

Dr. Jones. Not while I was in the room.

Mr. Specter. What was he on when you first saw him?

Dr. Jones. He was on an emergency room cart, which is on wheels and can be changed to varying heights and also varying positions, as far as elevating the head or elevating the feet, lowering the head and so forth.

Mr. Specter. Was he ever taken off that cart from the time he was brought into the emergency room to the time he was pronounced to be dead?

Dr. Jones. No.

Mr. Specter. Doctor, are you working toward board certification at this time?

57 Dr. Jones. Yes.

Mr. Specter. And what is your status on your progress with that, generally?

Dr. Jones. I will finish my formal training in surgery in July of this year, which will complete 5 years of general surgery residency.

Mr. Specter. How old are you at the present time, Dr. Jones?

Dr. Jones. Thirty-one.

Mr. Specter. Have you discussed this matter with any representatives of the Federal Government prior to today?

Dr. Jones. Yes, I believe the Secret Service has been here on at least two occasions.

Mr. Specter. And what did they ask you on those occasions?

Dr. Jones. I think, primarily, to verify that what I had written was true and that I had been one of the first doctors to be in the room with the President.

Mr. Specter. Did they ask you anything else other than that?

Dr. Jones. On one occasion they asked if there were any other pieces of paper that had been written on as to the care that had been administered to the President that I had not turned in, and I told them "No."

Mr. Specter. And did you and I sit down and talk for a few minutes before we went on the record in this deposition, with me indicating to you the general purpose and the line of questioning, and you setting forth the same information which we have put on the record here today?

Dr. Jones. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. Do you have anything to add which you think might be helpful to the Commission in any way?

Dr. Jones. No, sir.

Mr. Specter. That concludes the deposition. Thank you very much, Dr. Jones.

Dr. Jones. All right.


TESTIMONY OF DR. DON TEEL CURTIS

The testimony of Dr. Don Teel Curtis was taken at 9:25 a.m., on March 24, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. Specter. Let the record show that present are Dr. Don Curtis and the court reporter, in connection with the deposition proceeding being conducted by the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy, which is inquiring into all facets of the assassination, including the medical treatment performed for President Kennedy.

Dr. Don Curtis is appearing here this morning in response to a letter requesting him to testify concerning his knowledge of that medical treatment of President Kennedy. With that preliminary statement of the general objective of the Commission and the specific objective of this deposition proceeding, Dr. Curtis, will you rise and raise your right hand, please?

Do you solemnly swear the testimony you give before this Presidential Commission in this deposition proceeding will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Dr. Curtis. I do.

Mr. Specter. Would you state your full name for the record, please?

Dr. Curtis. Dr. Don Teel, T-e-e-l (spelling) Curtis.

Mr. Specter. And what is your occupation or profession?

Dr. Curtis. Oral surgeon.

Mr. Specter. Would you outline briefly your educational background?

Dr. Curtis. I attended my freshman year at Boulder, Colo., Colorado University, 2 subsequent years of undergraduate work at Texas University, 4 years at Baylor Dental College, and I have been interning here for a year and a half.

58 Mr. Specter. What year did you graduate from Baylor Dental College?

Dr. Curtis. 1962.

Mr. Specter. What is your age at the present time?

Dr. Curtis. Twenty-six.

Mr. Specter. And what has your work consisted of here at Parkland Hospital?

Dr. Curtis. I have functioned as an intern in oral surgery and also now am a resident this year in oral surgery.

Mr. Specter. Are you a licensed dentist?

Dr. Curtis. Yes.

Mr. Specter. And when did you obtain that status in the State of Texas?

Dr. Curtis. I think in August of 1962.

Mr. Specter. Did you have occasion to assist in the medical treatment of President John F. Kennedy on November 22, 1963?

Dr. Curtis. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Would you outline briefly the circumstances surrounding your call or your joining in the participation in that medical effort?

Dr. Curtis. I was—do you want me to tell from the time that I got to the emergency room?

Mr. Specter. Yes—how did you happen to get to the emergency room?

Dr. Curtis. I was in our out-patient clinic and saw the President's car, or I saw that it had arrived at the emergency room entrance, and I went over there as a matter of curiosity and was directed into the emergency room and there was directed by a policeman into the room where President Kennedy was.

Mr. Specter. About what time was that?

Dr. Curtis. I don't know—it was shortly after he arrived.

Mr. Specter. Approximately how long after he arrived?

Dr. Curtis. I would say it was within—I would say within a minute after he arrived at the trauma room, although there's no way for me to know that.

Mr. Specter. Who was present in the trauma room at that time?

Dr. Curtis. Dr. Carrico and a nurse, I believe.

Mr. Specter. Do you know the identity of the nurse?

Dr. Curtis. No.

Mr. Specter. What did you observe, if anything, as to the condition of President Kennedy at that time?

Dr. Curtis. I observed that he was in a supine position, with his head extended, and I couldn't see on my arrival—I couldn't see the nature of the wounds, however, Dr. Carrico was standing at the patient's head. Dr. Carrico had just placed an endotracheal tube and I participated in applying the Bird machine respirator into the endotracheal tube for artificial respiration.

Mr. Specter. How does it happen that you would participate to that effect in view of the fact that you are an oral surgeon?

Dr. Curtis. We participate in the emergency room on traumatic injuries of both the face and the entire patient, because the face is hooked onto a patient. We have a tour through anesthesia. We spend time on general anesthesia where we learn management of the patient's airway which makes us, I would say, qualified, for airway management. In our training here at the hospital we many, many times have patients on intravenous infusion and so we are well acquainted with the procedures attendant with the management of I.V. fluids.

Mr. Specter. Is there always someone from oral surgery available at the trauma area?

Dr. Curtis. One of the oral surgeons is on call at the emergency room at all times and we try to stay within a very short distance from the emergency room. We see many patients in the emergency room area.

Mr. Specter. Is that for the purpose of rendering aid for someone who would be injured in a way which would call for an oral surgeon?

Dr. Curtis. Yes—maxillofacial injuries.

Mr. Specter. And in addition, you help out in a general way when there is an emergency situation?

Dr. Curtis. Yes.

59 Mr. Specter. Now, was there anything in President Kennedy's condition which called for the application of your specific specialty?

Dr. Curtis. No; there wasn't.

Mr. Specter. So, you aided in a general way in the treatment of him as an emergency case?

Dr. Curtis. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Now, would you continue to tell me what you have observed with respect to his condition when you first saw him, including what you noted, if anything, with respect to his respiration.

Dr. Curtis. It is very difficult to say whether or not the President was making a respiratory effort, but I'm not sure that he wasn't making a respiratory effort.

Mr. Specter. Do you think that he was making a respiratory effort?

Dr. Curtis. He could have been, and that's as far as I can go on it.

Mr. Specter. Did you observe movements of the chest?

Dr. Curtis. I thought I did.

Mr. Specter. What was his coloring?

Dr. Curtis. He was pink—he wasn't cyanotic when I saw him.

Mr. Specter. And will you explain in lay terms what cyanotic means for the record at this point?

Dr. Curtis. When the hemoglobin of the blood is reduced, it turns a blue color and the patient becomes blue, when a certain percentage of the hemoglobin is reduced. That's not a lay term either, but when the patient is in oxygen need or oxygen want, cyanosis would be apparent.

Mr. Specter. And how does that manifest itself in the patient?

Dr. Curtis. The patient will be a blue, gray, ashen color.

Mr. Specter. What action was Dr. Carrico taking upon your arrival?

Dr. Curtis. He had placed an endotracheal tube in the President's trachea for artificial respiration.

Mr. Specter. Was he doing anything else?

Dr. Curtis. Yes; he was applying the Bird machine.

Mr. Specter. Will you describe what other steps he was taking, if any?

Dr. Curtis. He directed that a tracheotomy setup be brought to the emergency room, and I think it was Dr. Carrico directed me to start the I.V. fluids.

Mr. Specter. And what, if anything, did you do in response to his direction?

Dr. Curtis. I assisted him in fitting the tube from the Bird machine to the endotracheal tube and I assisted in removing some of the President's clothes and did the cutdown on his leg.

Mr. Specter. And what, specifically, did you do pursuant to the cutdown on his leg?

Dr. Curtis. A small incision was made on the ankle and a vein is bluntly dissected free, small holes placed in the vein and a venous catheter is placed in this vein and a purse string ligature is then tied around the catheter at one end, and then the wound was closed with sutures.

Mr. Specter. Now, did you do anything else to the President following that operative procedure?

Dr. Curtis. Then, the initial cutdown that I started was ineffective and infiltrated into the tissues. I think possibly I cut the knot too close of the purse string ligature, so I was getting ready to do another one and it was decided since fluids were going in the other leg, it wouldn't be necessary.

Mr. Specter. What other action did you take, if any, in the treatment of the President?

Dr. Curtis. That's all.

Mr. Specter. Did you remain in the trauma room No. 1?

Dr. Curtis. I did until he was pronounced dead.

Mr. Specter. What action was taken by anyone else in the trauma room while you were there?

Dr. Curtis. My attention was focused on what I was doing, so I wasn't aware—I knew that a cutdown was being performed and that is about all I could see. I mean, I knew that a tracheotomy was being performed.

Mr. Specter. What other doctors were present there at that time?

Dr. Curtis. I know that Dr. Perry was there and I know Dr. Baxter was60 there, and then I recall Dr. Jenkins from the Anesthesia Department, and Dr. Seldin, Dr. Crenshaw, and that's about all the doctors—I could think of others probably, but I can't remember now.

Mr. Specter. Can you identify any other nurses who were there?

Dr. Curtis. No; I can't—I wasn't paying attention to the nurses.

Mr. Specter. During the course of your presence near President Kennedy, did you have any opportunity to observe any wounds on his body?

Dr. Curtis. After I had completed the cutdown, I went around to the right side of the patient and saw the head wound.

Mr. Specter. And what did you observe there?

Dr. Curtis. Oh—fragments of bone and a gross injury to the cranial contents, with copious amounts of hemorrhage.

Mr. Specter. Did you observe any other wound on the President?

Dr. Curtis. No; I didn't. As I said before, I noticed the mass in the pre-tracheal area.

Mr. Specter. And when you say "as you said before," you mean in our previous discussions prior to going on the record here?

Dr. Curtis. Yes.

Mr. Specter. And will you state now for the record what you did notice with respect to the tracheal area?

Dr. Curtis. The President's head was extended or hyperextended and I noticed that in the suprasternal notch there was a mass that looked like a hematoma to me, or a blood clot in the tissues.

Mr. Specter. How big was that hematoma?

Dr. Curtis. Oh, I think it was 5 cm. in size.

Mr. Specter. What color was it?

Dr. Curtis. It had no color—there was just skin overlying it.

Mr. Specter. What did it appear to be?

Dr. Curtis. Probably a hematoma.

Mr. Specter. Did you observe any perforation or hole in the President's throat?

Dr. Curtis. No; I didn't. But that doesn't mean it wasn't there.

Mr. Specter. Did you have an opportunity to look closely for it?

Dr. Curtis. I focused my attention on his neck for an instant, and that's all.

Mr. Specter. Did you hear any discussion among any of the doctors about an opening on his neck?

Dr. Curtis. No; I didn't.

Mr. Specter. Did you make any written report concerning your activity on the President?

Dr. Curtis. No; I didn't.

Mr. Specter. Have you any notes or writings of any sort concerning your work with the President?

Dr. Curtis. No.

Mr. Specter. Have you talked to any representatives of the Federal Government about your participation in treating President Kennedy before today?

Dr. Curtis. No; I haven't.

Mr. Specter. Prior to the time that we went on the record here with the court reporter, did you and I have a very brief conversation concerning the purpose of the deposition and the general questions which I would ask you on the record?

Dr. Curtis. Yes.

Mr. Specter. And is the information which you have provided on the record the same as that which you gave me before the court reporter started taking notes?

Dr. Curtis. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Do you have anything to add which you think would be helpful to the Commission in its work?

Dr. Curtis. No; I don't think so.

Mr. Specter. Thank you very much, Dr. Curtis, for coming here today.

Dr. Curtis. All right.


61

TESTIMONY OF DR. FOUAD A. BASHOUR

The testimony of Dr. Fouad A. Bashour was taken at 1:15 p.m., on March 25, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. Specter. May the record show that Dr. Fouad Bashour has appeared pursuant to a letter of request from the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy, in connection with the Commission's inquiry into all of the factors surrounding the assassination of the President, including medical treatment received at Parkland Hospital, and Dr. Bashour's knowledge, if any, as related to the treatment in the emergency room.

With that preliminary statement of purpose, Dr. Bashour, would you mind rising and then raise your right hand?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give before the President's Commission in this deposition proceeding will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Dr. Bashour. I do.

Mr. Specter. Would you state your full name for the record, please?

Dr. Bashour. F-o-u-a-d (spelling), Fouad A. Bashour.

Mr. Specter. What is your profession, sir?

Mr. Bashour. I am an internist with a specialization in cardiology. I am associate professor of medicine.

Mr. Specter. Are you duly licensed by the State of Texas to practice medicine here?

Dr. Bashour. Yes.

Mr. Specter. And are you board certified at the present time?

Dr. Bashour. No, sir; I don't have my board because I am not yet a citizen. I will be taking my citizenship this year, I hope, and then I will be able to sit for the board.

Mr. Specter. Did you have occasion to assist in the treatment of President Kennedy back on November 22, 1963?

Dr. Bashour. Yes; we were called from the dining room, the doctors' dining room, and we went directly to the President Kennedy room.

Mr. Specter. When you say "we" whom do you mean by that?

Dr. Bashour. Dr. Seldin and myself—we left the dining room and went right straight down to the President's room.

Mr. Specter. And what is Dr. Seldin's first name?

Dr. Bashour. Donald.

Mr. Specter. And what is his specialty, if any?

Dr. Bashour. He's chairman of the department of medicine and professor of medicine. He is a specialist and a recognized famous specialist in renal diseases.

Mr. Specter. And what, in lay language, does that facet of medicine involve?

Dr. Bashour. Kidney diseases.

Mr. Specter. Did Dr. Seldin accompany you into the emergency room where President Kennedy was located?

Dr. Bashour. We went to the room together and then I was left alone because this is a problem—a heart problem.

Mr. Specter. Did Dr. Seldin remain in the room with you?

Dr. Bashour. Well, he came and stayed for—he just left the room after we came in.

Mr. Specter. How long did he stay in the room?

Dr. Bashour. A few seconds.

Mr. Specter. Who was present in the room when you arrived?

Dr. Bashour. When I arrived, Dr. Kemp Clark was doing the cardiac massage on the President, Dr. Jenkins was in charge of controlling artificial respiration of the President, and the probably there were some three or four—I don't remember.

Mr. Specter. And what did you observe the President's condition to be at the time you arrived?

Dr. Bashour. The President was lying on the stretcher, the head wound was62 massive, the blood was dripping from the head, and at that time the President had an endotracheal tube, and his pupils were dilated, his eyes were staring, and they were not reactive, there was no pulsations, his heart sounds were not present, and his extremities were cold.

Then, we attached the scope—the cardioscope and there was a flip, this was probably artificial. Upon stopping the cardiac machine, there was no cardiac activity. That means the heart was standing still. We continued cardiac massage and still there was no cardiac activities, so the President was declared dead shortly thereafter.

Mr. Specter. At approximately what time was he declared dead?

Dr. Bashour. Well, according to my notes, we said here, "Declared dead about 12:55," or so.

Mr. Specter. Was that a precise time fixed or was that just a general approximation?

Dr. Bashour. No, sir; approximation.

Mr. Specter. When you refer to the "flip" what do you mean by that, Dr. Bashour?

Dr. Bashour. On the scope—some change in the baseline of the scope.

Mr. Specter. Did that indicate some activity in the President's heart?

Dr. Bashour. No, sir; not necessarily.

Mr. Specter. What else could have accounted for the flip besides that?

Dr. Bashour. Anything extraneous could have accounted for that.

Mr. Specter. So, you require a number of flips before you inquire if there is heart activity?

Dr. Bashour. Well, it depends on the configuration of the flip—if the flip resembles an electrocardiogram activity—it shows cardiac activity.

Mr. Specter. Was that configuration of the flip like heart activity or not?

Dr. Bashour. It wasn't, as far as I know.

Mr. Specter. That is your field, is it not, you read those flips?

Dr. Bashour. Well, it's my field to see the electrocardiograms; yes.

Mr. Specter. And, in your professional opinion, the flip which you saw was not a conclusive indicator of heart activity?

Dr. Bashour. As a matter of fact, when he removed his hand, there was nothing.

Mr. Specter. And who is "he"?

Dr. Bashour. Dr. Clark, who was doing the cardiac massage.

Mr. Specter. What else was done to the President, if anything, in addition to those things you have already mentioned after you arrived on the scene?

Dr. Bashour. Really, as far as I know, it was the end of the scene—nothing was done afterward.

Mr. Specter. Did you observe any wound besides the head wound which you have just described?

Dr. Bashour. No; I did not observe any wounds.

Mr. Specter. What was the condition of the front part of the President's neck upon your arrival?

Dr. Bashour. The only thing—it was covered with the endotracheal tube—I did not really pay attention to it.

Mr. Specter. Did you have an opportunity to see the neck wound before the tracheotomy was performed?

Dr. Bashour. No; I came after everything was done to him.

Mr. Specter. Doctor, I show you a group of papers heretofore marked as "Commission Exhibit No. 392," and I call your attention to the photostatic copy of a sheet which purports to be a report made by you on November 22, 1963, at 4:45 p.m., is that your report?

Dr. Bashour. Yes.

Mr. Specter. And is that in fact your signature?

Dr. Bashour. Yes.

Mr. Specter. And are the facts set forth therein the essence of what you observed and what you know about this matter?

Dr. Bashour. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Have you talked to anyone from the Federal Government prior to today about your treatment of President Kennedy?

63 Dr. Bashour. There was a security officer or something called me on the phone one day and said did I write any note besides this note on the chart, and I said "No." I don't know his name even.

Mr. Specter. What note was he referring to?

Dr. Bashour. This note here.

Mr. Specter. He asked you if you wrote what?

Dr. Bashour. Other notes than this.

Mr. Specter. If you had any other notes?

Dr. Bashour. Yes.

Mr. Specter. And do you have any other notes other than the one I have just shown you?

Dr. Bashour. No.

Mr. Specter. Did the Secret Service agent ask you anything else other than that?

Dr. Bashour. No.

Mr. Specter. And did you talk to any other representative of the Federal Government on any occasion prior to today?

Dr. Bashour. No, sir.

Mr. Specter. And, did you and I talk for a few minutes about the type of questions I would be asking you during this deposition?

Dr. Bashour. Yes.

Mr. Specter. And is the information which you have given me on the record here and written down by the court reporter the same as you told me before she arrived?

Dr. Bashour. Yes.

Mr. Specter. And, will you give me just an outline of your educational background, Doctor?

Dr. Bashour. I got my baccalaureate from French Government in 1941—first part. I got my second part, baccalaureate in mathematics and science in 1942, I got my B.A. degree in 1944 from the American University of Beirut, my M.D. degree in 1949, and my Ph. D. in 1957 from the University of Minnesota. I came back to this country in 1959 from the American University of Beirut, as an instructor, and from 1959 to 1963 I jumped from instructor to assistant professor to associate professor in February 1963.

Mr. Specter. Do you have anything to add which you think will be helpful in any way to the President's Commission?

Dr. Bashour. No, sir.

Mr. Specter. Thank you very much for coming, Dr. Bashour.

Dr. Bashour. Thank you very much.


TESTIMONY OF DR. GENE COLEMAN AKIN

The testimony of Dr. Gene Coleman Akin was taken at 11:30 a.m., on March 25, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. Specter. May the record show that Dr. Gene Akin is present in response to a letter request that he appear to have his deposition taken in connection with an inquiry being conducted by the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy. Dr. Akin is being asked to appear here today to testify concerning his knowledge, if any, about the condition of President Kennedy on arrival in Parkland Hospital and his treatment here.

With that preliminary statement of purpose, Dr. Akin, will you rise and raise your right hand, please?

Do you solemnly swear the testimony you shall give before the President's Commission in this deposition proceeding will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Dr. Akin. I do.

64 Mr. Specter. Will you state your full name, please?

Dr. Akin. Gene Coleman Akin.

Mr. Specter. What is your profession?

Dr. Akin. Medicine.

Mr. Specter. Are you duly licensed to practice in Texas, to practice medicine?

Dr. Akin. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Do you have any specialty?

Dr. Akin. Anesthesiology.

Mr. Specter. And are you board-certified?

Dr. Akin. No.

Mr. Specter. Are you working toward board-certification?

Dr. Akin. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Would you outline briefly your educational background?

Dr. Akin. Premedical school at University of Texas in Austin, medical school, Southwestern Medical School Branch of the University of Texas, internship, Dallas Methodist Hospital, and anesthesiology residence at Parkland Memorial Hospital, starting in July 1962.

Mr. Specter. And, in what year did you graduate from medical school?

Dr. Akin. 1961.

Mr. Specter. And how old are you at the present time, Doctor?

Dr. Akin. Thirty-four.

Mr. Specter. Did you have occasion to render assistance to President John F. Kennedy on November 22, 1963?

Dr. Akin. Briefly.

Mr. Specter. Would you state how you came to be called into the case?

Dr. Akin. I was notified while I was on duty in the operating suite of the hospital that anesthesia assistance was needed in the emergency room. President Kennedy supposedly had been shot and had been brought to the emergency room, and I immediately went down the back elevator to the emergency room to see if I could be of assistance, and when I walked in, a tracheotomy was being performed. President Kennedy still had an endotracheal tube, an oro-tracheal tube in place, and the connector from this to the Bird respirator was removed. The anesthesia machine had been simultaneously rolled into the room and Dr. Jenkins connected the anesthesia machine to the oro-tracheal tube and it stayed there for a brief period, until the tracheotomy tube was placed in the tracheotomy, at which time I connected the breathing tubes from the anesthesia machine to the tracheotomy and held this in place while Dr. Jenkins controlled the ventilation with 100-percent oxygen from the anesthesia machine.

Mr. Specter. Did you assist Dr. Jenkins then in his work?

Dr. Akin. Only insofar as I held the endotracheal connector in place into the tracheotomy tube.

Mr. Specter. What doctors in addition to Dr. Jenkins then were present, if any, at the time of your arrival?

Dr. Akin. You mean everybody in the room? I don't know that I can name all of them.

Mr. Specter. Name as many as you can, if you will, please?

Dr. Akin. There was Dr. Jenkins, there was myself for a brief period, there was Dr. Giesecke, Dr. Jackie Hunt—they left shortly after arriving. I heard later that they had gone across the hall to Governor Connally's room to assist him; Dr. Malcolm Perry, Dr. Charles Baxter, Dr. Kemp Clark, Dr. Bob McClelland, Dr. James Carrico, Dr. Ron Jones, was there. I think, shortly after I arrived, and Dr. Fouad Bashour came in from cardiology; Dr. Don Seldin walked in briefly, I can't remember the team that worked on the cutdowns on the legs—I can't remember that. This is sort of hazy, because it was a couple of days later we went through the same business over again and I am liable to say that there was somebody there that worked on Kennedy that actually had worked on Oswald, because I was on the Oswald mess too. This is all that I remember were positively there. I remember their being there, but there were others that I am not sure of.

Mr. Specter. What did you observe as to the President's condition?

Dr. Akin. He looked moribund in my medical judgment.

65 Mr. Specter. Did you observe any wounds on him at the time you first saw him?

Dr. Akin. There was a midline neck wound below the level of the cricoid cartilage, about 1 to 1.5 cm. in diameter, the lower part of this had been cut across when I saw the wound, it had been cut across with a knife in the performance of the tracheotomy. The back of the right occipitalparietal portion of his head was shattered, with brain substance extruding.

Mr. Specter. Returning to the wound which you first described, can you state in any more detail the appearance of it at the time you first saw it?

Dr. Akin. I don't think I could—this is about all I noticed. I noticed this wound very briefly and it was a matter of academics as to how he sustained the wound. My attention, because of my standing on the right side of the patient who was lying supine, my attention was very soon directed to the head wound, and this was my major concern.

Mr. Specter. And as to the neck wound, did you have occasion to observe whether there was a smooth, jagged, or what was the nature of the portion of the neck wound, which had not been cut by the tracheotomy?

Dr. Akin. It was slightly ragged around the edges.

Mr. Specter. And when you said that——

Dr. Akin. No powder burns; I didn't notice any powder burns.

Mr. Specter. What was the dimension of the punctate wound, without regards to the tracheotomy which was being started?

Dr. Akin. It looked—it was as you said, it was a punctate wound. It was roughly circular, about, I would judge, 1.5 cm. in diameter.

Mr. Specter. What did you mean when you just made your reference to the academic aspect with the wound, Dr. Akin?

Dr. Akin. Well, naturally, the thought flashed through my mind that this might have been an entrance wound. I immediately thought it could also have been an exit wound, depending upon the nature of the missile that made the wound.

Mr. Specter. What would be the circumstances on which it might be one or the other?

Dr. Akin. Well, if the President had been shot with a low velocity missile, such as fire from a pistol, it was more likely to have been an entrance wound, is that what you mean?

Mr. Specter. Yes.

Dr. Akin. If, however, he had been shot with a high velocity military type of rifle, for example, it could be either an entrance wound or an exit wound.

Mr. Specter. Why do you say it could be either an entrance wound or an exit wound with respect to the rifle?

Dr. Akin. Well, because a high velocity missile coming from a military rifle, especially if the missile were a jacketed missile, a copper- or steel-jacketed missile, itself, the missile itself is not distorted when it passes through soft tissue, and the wound made when the bullet leaves the body, is a small wound, much like the wound of entrance, but like I said, I didn't devote much time to conjecture about this.

Mr. Specter. How much experience have you had, if any, on gunshot wounds, doctor?

Dr. Akin. I can't really give you, say, how many cases a week I see of this. Most of my experience with this is in an anesthetic situation with patients coming into the hospital, having sustained gunshot injuries, most of them are injured with low velocity missiles, smaller caliber—.22 caliber to .38 caliber, and most of them are not injured in a through and through fashion. In other words, I don't see too many exit wounds, the bullets are slow moving, and they enter the body and don't leave it. They usually stay in it, so consequently I could not be considered an expert in exit wounds.

Mr. Specter. Is that the general line of bullet wounds which come into Parkland Hospital, would you say?

Dr. Akin. What I have just described, you mean?

Mr. Specter. Yes.

Dr. Akin. Yes; I think so. Most of the people seem to be shot with cheap ammunition fired out of inferior weapons.

66 Mr. Specter. Would your experience with the type of bullet wounds you have just described be about the same as the other doctors have here at Parkland, or would there be some difference between what you have seen on bullet wounds and what the other doctors have seen?

Dr. Akin. I think so, except there is one difference—I am not ordinarily on duty in the emergency room, so I am not very often the first doctor to see one of these people injured in this fashion. When I see them they are people who have sustained a gunshot injury, but who lived to make it to the operating room. We, I'm sure, have a lot of people who are shot and who are dead on arrival at the emergency room, and they are examined by the emergency room physicians, and I never see them, so there would be a lot of people down there that I never have seen. They might be injured with a hunting rifle or a good quality ammunition, and I would not have seen them.

Mr. Specter. Dr. Akin, permit me, if you will, to give you a set of facts which I will ask you to assume for the purpose of giving me an opinion, if you are able to formulate one. Assume that the President was struck by a 6.5 mm. missile which had a muzzle velocity of approximately 2,000 feet per second at a time when the President was approximately 160 to 250 feet away from the weapon. Assume further that the bullet entered the President's body in the upper right posterior thorax just above the upper border of the scapula at a point 14 cm. from the tip of the right acromion process and 14 cm. below the tip of the right mastoid process. Assume further that the missile traveled through or in between, rather, the strap muscles without penetrating either muscle but going in between the two in the area of his back and traveled through the fascial channel without violating the pleura cavity, and that the bullet struck the side of the trachea and exited from the throat in the position of the punctate wound which you have described you saw, would the wound you saw be consistent with a wound of exit under the factors that I have just outlined to you?

Dr. Akin. As far as I know, it is perfectly compatible from what you have described, except when you say it passed through without injuring the strap muscles, are you talking about the anterior strap muscles of the neck or are you talking about the posterior muscles of the neck?

Mr. Specter. The anterior strap muscles of the neck.

Dr. Akin. It's a matter of clarification because there are no strap muscles posterior, by my terminology. Yes, this is perfectly consistent with what I know about, or what I have been told by military experts, concerning high velocity missile injuries.

Mr. Specter. And what is the basis of your information from the military experts you just referred to?

Dr. Akin. Military rifle demonstrations when I was a senior student at Brooks Air Force Base in San Antonio. We took a brief two day tour there with demonstrations of high velocity missile injury.

Mr. Specter. With respect to the head wound, Dr. Akin, did you observe below the gaping wound which you have described any other bullet wound in the back of the head?

Dr. Akin. No; I didn't. I could not see the back of the President's head as such, and the right posterior neck was obscured by blood and skull fragments and I didn't make any attempt to examine the neck.

Mr. Specter. Did you have any opportunity to observe the President's clothes?

Dr. Akin. I noticed them.

Mr. Specter. With respect to examining the shirt, for example, to see what light that would shed, if any, on the trajectory of the bullet?

Dr. Akin. No; I didn't. The front of the chest was uncovered, the pants had been loosened and lowered below the iliac crest, and the only article of clothing I noticed in particular was his back corset.

Mr. Specter. What did you observe with respect to the back corset which you just mentioned?

Dr. Akin. It had been loosened and was just lying loose.

Mr. Specter. Can you describe the corset, indicating how wide it was?

Dr. Akin. The only portion I saw was the front portion of the corset and67 it was about, I'd say, 5 or 6 inches in width, and made out of some white heavy fabric with the usual straps and buckles.

Mr. Specter. Did you notice any Ace bandage strapping the President's buttocks area?

Dr. Akin. No.

Mr. Specter. Was that area of his anatomy visible to you?

Dr. Akin. Not his buttocks, he was lying supine.

Mr. Specter. Was President Kennedy ever turned over, to your knowledge?

Dr. Akin. Not while I was there.

Mr. Specter. And how long were you there altogether, Dr. Akin?

Dr. Akin. Oh, probably 15, maybe 20—perhaps 20 minutes.

Mr. Specter. Were you present when he was pronounced to be dead?

Dr. Akin. Yes—I didn't leave until Dr. Clark and Dr. Jenkins had mutually agreed that nothing else could be done.

Mr. Specter. What time was he pronounced dead?

Dr. Akin. 1300 hours.

Mr. Specter. And what, in your opinion, was the cause of death?

Dr. Akin. Massive gunshot injury to the brain—primary cause.

Mr. Specter. You have already described some of the treatment which was performed on the President; could you supplement that by describing what else was done for the President?

Dr. Akin. Other than the placement of chest tubes, artificial respiration, brief external cardiac massage—I don't know. Anything else I said would be hearsay, and I understand that he did receive some cortisone. He received so much Ringer's lactate, but this is not of my own personal knowledge.

Mr. Specter. How many bullets were involved in the wounds inflicted on the President, Dr. Akin?

Dr. Akin. Probably two.

Mr. Specter. Have you ever changed any of your original opinions in connection with your observations of the President or any opinions you formed in connection with what you saw?

Dr. Akin. You mean as to how he was injured?

Mr. Specter. Yes, as to how he was injured.

Dr. Akin. Well, no; not really because I didn't have any opinions, necessarily. Any speculation that I might have done about how he was injured was just that, it was just speculation. I didn't form an opinion until it was revealed where he was when he was injured and where the alleged assassin was when he fired the shots, so I didn't have any opinions. It was my immediate assumption that when I saw the extent of the head wound, I assumed at that point that he had probably been hit in the head with a high velocity missile because of the damage that had been done. The same thing happened to his head and would happen to a sealed can of sauerkraut that you hit with a high velocity missile.

Mr. Specter. Did you have any opinion as to the direction that the bullet hit his head?

Dr. Akin. I assume that the right occipitalparietal region was the exit, so to speak, that he had probably been hit on the other side of the head, or at least tangentially in the back of the head, but I didn't have any hard and fast opinions about that either.

Mr. Specter. Have you been interviewed by any representative of the Federal Government prior to today?

Dr. Akin. You mean concerning this matter?

Mr. Specter. Concerning this matter.

Dr. Akin. I think I was probably interviewed by a member of the Secret Service some weeks ago.

Mr. Specter. What did you say to him?

Dr. Akin. Virtually the same thing, as I recall—I didn't make as long a statement, he just wanted to know where I was and what I did and I told him briefly and that seemed to satisfy him.

Mr. Specter. And is that the only time you have been interviewed by any representative of the Federal Government concerning this matter prior to today?

68 Dr. Akin. Yes; as far as I can remember.

Mr. Specter. And before I started to take your deposition, did you and I have a very brief discussion about the nature of the deposition and the questions I would ask you?

Dr. Akin. Yes.

Mr. Specter. And did you give me about the same information, exactly the same information you have put on the record here this morning?

Dr. Akin. To my knowledge; yes.

Mr. Specter. Do you have anything to add which you think might be of assistance to the President's Commission in their inquiry?

Dr. Akin. No; I don't think so. I don't know exactly if there is any disagreement or discrepancy in the testimony from the various people who have testified, so I don't know. This is all I saw.

Mr. Specter. That's fine. Thank you very much, Dr. Akin.

Dr. Akin. That's all right, thank you.


TESTIMONY OF DR. PAUL CONRAD PETERS

The testimony of Dr. Paul Conrad Peters was taken at 4 p.m., on March 24, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. Specter. May the record show that Dr. Paul Peters is present, having responded to a request to have his deposition taken in connection with the investigation of the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy, which is investigating all aspects of the assassination, including the medical treatment of President Kennedy at Parkland Memorial Hospital, and for the latter sequence of events we have asked Dr. Peters to appear and testify what he knows, if anything, concerning that medical attention.

With that statement of purpose in calling you, Dr. Peters, may I ask you to rise and raise your right hand?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give before the President's Commission in this deposition proceeding will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Dr. Peters. I do.

Mr. Specter. Now, will you state your full name for the record, please?

Dr. Peters. Paul Conrad Peters.

Mr. Specter. And what is your profession, sir?

Dr. Peters. Doctor of medicine.

Mr. Specter. And will you outline for me briefly your educational background?

Dr. Peters. I went to college at Indiana University in Bloomington, Ind., and received an A.B. degree from Indiana University in 1950, and received an M.D. degree from Indiana University in 1953. I took my internship at the Philadelphia General Hospital, 1953 and 1954. I took my residency in Urological Surgery at Indiana University from 1954 to 1957, and from 1957 to 1963 I was chief of Urology at U.S.A.F. Hospital, Carswell, which is the largest hospital in SAC, and I was regional consultant to the surgeon general in Urological surgery. Since July 1963, I have been assistant professor of Urology at Southwestern Medical School.

Mr. Specter. And are you board certified, Dr. Peters?

Dr. Peters. I am certified by the American Board of Urology—1960.

Mr. Specter. Did you have occasion to render medical services to President John Kennedy on November 22, 1963?

Dr. Peters. Yes.

Mr. Specter. And would you outline briefly the circumstances relating to your arriving on the scene where he was?

Dr. Peters. As I just gave you a while ago?

Mr. Specter. Yes.

69 Dr. Peters. I was in the adjacent portion of the hospital preparing material for a lecture to the medical students and residents later in the day, when I heard over the radio that the President had been shot and there was a great deal of confusion at the time and the extent of his injuries was not immediately broadcast over the radio, and I thought, because of the description of the location of the tragedy he would probably be brought to Parkland for care, and so I went to the emergency room to see if I could render assistance.

Mr. Specter. And at about what time did you arrive at the emergency room?

Dr. Peters. Well, could I ask a question or two?

Mr. Specter. Sure.

Dr. Peters. As I recall, he was shot about 12:35 our time; is that correct?

Mr. Specter. I believe that's been fixed most precisely at 12:30, Dr. Peters.

Dr. Peters. So, I would estimate it was probably about 12:50 when I got there, I really don't know for certain.

Mr. Specter. Whom did you find present, if anyone, when you arrived?

Dr. Peters. When I arrived the following people I noted were present in the room: Drs. Perry, Baxter, Ron Jones, and McClelland. The first thing I noticed, of course, was that President Kennedy was on the stretcher and that his feet were slightly elevated. He appeared to be placed in a position in which we usually treat a patient who is in shock, and I noticed that Dr. Perry and Dr. Baxter were present and that they were working on his throat. I also noticed that Dr. Ron Jones was present in the room. I took off my coat and asked what I could do to help, and then saw it was President Kennedy. I really didn't know it was President Kennedy until that time. Dr. Perry was there and he and Dr. Baxter were doing the tracheotomy and we asked for a set of tracheotomy tubes to try and get one of the appropriate size. I then helped Dr. Baxter assemble the tracheotomy tube which he inserted into the tracheotomy wound that he and Dr. Perry had created.

Mr. Specter. Were there any others present at that time, before you go on as to what aid you rendered?

Dr. Peters. I believe Dr. Carrico——

Mr. Specter. Any other doctors present?

Dr. Peters. And Dr. Jenkins was present.

Mr. Specter. Have you now covered all of those who were present at that time?

Dr. Peters. And Dr. Shaw walked into the room and left—for a moment—but he didn't stay. He just sort of glanced at the President and went across the hall. Mrs. Kennedy was in the corner with someone who identified himself as the personal physician of the President—I don't remember his name.

Mr. Specter. Dr. Burkley?

Dr. Peters. I don't know his name. That's just who he said he was, because he was asking that the President be given some steroids, which was done.

Mr. Specter. He requested that.

Dr. Peters. That's right, he said he should have some steroids because he was an Addisonian.

Mr. Specter. What do you mean by that in lay language?

Dr. Peters. Well, Addison's disease is a disease of the adrenal cortex which is characterized by a deficiency in the elaboration of certain hormones that allow an individual to respond to stress and these hormones are necessary for life, and if they cannot be replaced, the individual may succumb.

Mr. Specter. And Dr. Burkley, or whoever was the President's personal physician, made a request that you treat him as an Addisonian?

Dr. Peters. That's right—he recommended that he be given steroids because he was an Addisonian—that's what he said.

Mr. Specter. Were there any nurses present at that time?

Dr. Peters. I don't remember a nurse being in the room all the time, but they were coming in and out.

Mr. Specter. Have you identified all the people who were present to the best of your recollection?

Dr. Peters. Did I mention Dr. Robert McClelland, he was also there.

Mr. Specter. Was Dr. Dulany there?

Dr. Peters. I don't remember him, he may have been.

70 Mr. Specter. Who else was there, if anyone, that you can recall, or have you now given me everyone you can recall?

Dr. Peters. Well, I am giving you my impression of the situation as I walked in and those are the ones I remember right now. Dr. Kemp Clark also came in during the maneuvering.

Mr. Specter. Well, who else came in during the course of the operative procedures?

Dr. Peters. The anesthesiologists, Drs. Jenkins and Gene Akin, I believe, came in.

Mr. Specter. Did anyone else come in?

Dr. Peters. I am not certain of anyone else.

Mr. Specter. Now, tell us what aid was rendered to President Kennedy.

Dr. Peters. Dr. Perry and Dr. Baxter were doing the tracheotomy and a set of tracheotomy tubes was obtained and the appropriate size was determined and I gave it to Baxter, who helped Perry put it into the wound, and Perry noted also that there appeared to be a bubbling sensation in the chest and recommended that chest tubes be put in. Dr. Ron Jones put a chest tube in on the left side and Dr. Baxter and I put it in on the right side—I made the incision in the President's chest, and I noted that there was no bleeding from the wound.

Mr. Specter. Did you put that chest tube all the way in on the right side?

Dr. Peters. That's our presumption—yes.

Mr. Specter. And what else was done for the President?

Dr. Peters. About the same time—there was a question of whether he really had an adequate pulse, and so Dr. Ronald Jones and I pulled his pants down and noticed that he was wearing his brace which had received a lot of publicity in the lay press, and also that he had an elastic bandage wrapped around his pelvis at—in a sort of a figure eight fashion, so as to encompass both thighs and the lower trunk.

Mr. Specter. What was the purpose of that bandage?

Dr. Peters. I presume that it was—my thoughts at the time were that he probably had been having pelvic pain and had put this on as an additional support to stabilize his lower pelvis. It seemed quite interesting to me that the President of the United States had on an ordinary $3 Ace bandage probably in an effort to stabilize his pelvis. I suppose he had been having some back pain and that was my thought at the time, but we removed this bandage in an effort to feel a femoral pulse. We were never certain that we got a good pulse.

Mr. Specter. Would you describe in as much detail as you can the type of brace he was wearing?

Dr. Peters. Well, it appeared similar to a corset.

Mr. Specter. How thick was it?

Dr. Peters. I would estimate it was one-eighth of an inch.

Mr. Specter. An eighth of an inch thick?

Dr. Peters. Yes.

Mr. Specter. And how high was it?

Dr. Peters. Well, it completely encompassed his midsection.

Mr. Specter. It encompassed his midsection?

Dr. Peters. His circumference—yes—and it was probably, I would guess about 8 to 11 inches.

Mr. Specter. In width?

Dr. Peters. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Running in his waist area at the top of his hips up to the lower part of his chest?

Dr. Peters. I would estimate that it went from the lower part of his chest to the pelvic girdle. About this time it was noted also that he had no effective heart action, and Dr. Perry asked whether he should open the chest and massage the heart. In the meantime, of course, the tracheotomy had been done and completed and had been hooked on to apparatus for assisting his respiration.

Mr. Specter. And what action, if any, was taken on the open-heart massage?

Dr. Peters. It was pointed out that an examination of the brain had been done. Dr. Jenkins had observed the brain and Dr. Clark had observed the brain and it was pointed out to Dr. Perry that it appeared to be a mortal wound, and71 involving the brain, and that open-heart massage would probably not add anything to what had already been done, and that external cardiac massage is known to be as efficient as direct massage of the heart itself.

Mr. Specter. Was there any further treatment rendered to the President?

Dr. Peters. Yes, Dr. Perry began immediate external compression of the chest in an effort to massage the heart, even before he asked the question as to whether the thoracotomy should be done. As soon as there was a question as to whether there was a pulse or not, he immediately began external chest compression.

Mr. Specter. What other action was taken to aid the President, if any?

Dr. Peters. Well, cut downs were done on the extremities, and tubes were inserted in the veins, and I know on the right ankle anteriorly, and I believe in the left arm and also in the left leg, in order to administer fluid and blood which he did receive.

Mr. Specter. Have you now described all of the medical attention given the President?

Dr. Peters. Well, I believe I have.

Mr. Specter. And was the President subsequently pronounced dead?

Dr. Peters. That's correct.

Mr. Specter. And about what time was that pronouncement made?

Dr. Peters. I could not give you the time within 5 or 10 minutes—I can tell you this much, though, I know what actually did happen.

Mr. Specter. Tell me that.

Dr. Peters. I was—we pronounced him dead and I was in the room, present while the priest gave him the last rites, during which time there was Dr. Jenkins and Dr. Baxter and Dr. McClelland, Mrs. Kennedy, the priest, and myself. Dr. Perry had left, as had most of the others by that time.

Mr. Specter. Why did you remain?

Dr. Peters. Well, I just hadn't gotten out of the door when the priest first came in and Dr. Jenkins asked everyone to leave except those people I have just named.

Mr. Specter. Why did he exclude those from the group which were to leave?

Dr. Peters. Well, I think they were nurses, and several other people he thought just best not remain and I'm sure that there was no intention to personally exclude anyone behind his request. He just sort of looked around and saw who appeared to be there and asked the others to leave.

Mr. Specter. What did you observe as to the nature of the President's wound?

Dr. Peters. Well, as I mentioned, the neck wound had already been interfered with by the tracheotomy at the time I got there, but I noticed the head wound, and as I remember—I noticed that there was a large defect in the occiput.

Mr. Specter. What did you notice in the occiput?

Dr. Peters. It seemed to me that in the right occipitalparietal area that there was a large defect. There appeared to be bone loss and brain loss in the area.

Mr. Specter. Did you notice any holes below the occiput, say, in this area below here?

Dr. Peters. No, I did not and at the time and the moments immediately following the injury, we speculated as to whether he had been shot once or twice because we saw the wound of entry in the throat and noted the large occipital wound, and it is a known fact that high velocity missiles often have a small wound of entrance and a large wound of exit, and I'm just giving you my honest impressions at the time.

Mr. Specter. What were they?

Dr. Peters. Well, I wondered whether or not he had been shot once or twice—that was my question at the time.

Mr. Specter. When you say "we speculate," whom do you mean by that?

Dr. Peters. Well, the doctors in attendance there.

Mr. Specter. Any doctor specifically?

Dr. Peters. I wouldn't mention anyone specifically, we all discussed it. I did not know whether or not he had been shot once or twice.

72 Mr. Specter. Did you have an opportunity to observe the wound on his neck prior to the time the tracheotomy was performed?

Dr. Peters. No, I did not. The tracheotomy was already being done by Dr. Baxter and Dr. Perry when I got in the room. I did not see the wound on his neck.

Mr. Specter. Did you make any written reports on the treatment of President Kennedy?

Dr. Peters. No, I did not; no one asked me to.

Mr. Specter. Did you prepare any notes of any sort, or do you have any notes of any sort?

Dr. Peters. No; I do not.

Mr. Specter. What was the cause of death in your opinion?

Dr. Peters. I would assume that it was irreversible damage to the centers in the brain which control the heart and respiration.

Mr. Specter. Have you talked to any representatives of the Federal Government about this matter prior to today?

Dr. Peters. No; I have not.

Mr. Specter. And prior to the time the court reporter came in, did you and I have a brief discussion as to the nature of this deposition and the questions that I would ask you?

Dr. Peters. No; I was not informed as to any specific questions. I knew the general nature of the testimony which I would give.

Mr. Specter. From the discussion?

Dr. Peters. From the letter I had received from the counsel signed by Mr. Rankin.

Mr. Specter. And did you and I have a brief conversation here in this room today before the court reporter came in?

Dr. Peters. Yes; we did.

Mr. Specter. Do you have anything to add which you think might be of assistance to the President's Commission in its investigation?

Dr. Peters. I do not—regarding the immediate condition of the President.

Mr. Specter. Thank you very much for coming, Dr. Peters, we are very much obliged to you.

Dr. Peters. Thank you.


TESTIMONY OF DR. ADOLPH HARTUNG GIESECKE, JR.

The testimony of Dr. Adolph Hartung Giesecke, Jr., was taken at 1:40 p.m., on March 25, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the Presidents Commission.

Mr. Specter. May the record show that Dr. A. H. Giesecke, Jr., is present in response to a letter request from the Commission to appear at this deposition proceeding in connection with the President's Commission to Investigate the Assassination of President Kennedy, including his medical treatment at Parkland Hospital.

Dr. Giesecke has been asked to appear to testify about his knowledge of the treatment that President Kennedy and Governor Connally received at Parkland Hospital on November 22, and with that preliminary statement of purpose and objective, would you please stand up, Dr. Giesecke, and raise your right hand?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give before this President's Commission in these deposition proceedings will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Dr. Giesecke. Yes; I do.

Mr. Specter. Will you state your full name, please, for the record?

Dr. Giesecke. Adolph Hartung Giesecke, Jr. H-a-r-t-u-n-g (spelling).

Mr. Specter. What is your profession?

Dr. Giesecke. I am a physician and anesthesiologist.

73 Mr. Specter. Are you duly licensed to practice medicine in the State of Texas?

Dr. Giesecke. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Are you board-certified?

Dr. Giesecke. No, sir.

Mr. Specter. Are you working for board-certification?

Dr. Giesecke. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Will you outline briefly your educational background, please?

Dr. Giesecke. I graduated—how far back do you want me to go?

Mr. Specter. Start with college, graduation from college, if you would, please.

Dr. Giesecke. I was on an accelerated plan through the University of Texas but have no college degree. I matriculated to medical school in 1953, September 1953, graduated May 30, 1957, from the University of Texas Medical Branch at Galveston, Tex. I did my internship at William Beaumont Army Hospital at El Paso, following which I served 24 months on active duty in the Army as an aviation medical officer. I was stationed primarily at the Presidio at San Francisco, Calif. Upon discharge from the Army, I came to Parkland Hospital, completed a 3-year residency in anesthesiology in July 1963. Since that time I have been an assistant professor on the anesthesiology staff at Southwestern Medical School.

Mr. Specter. Did you have occasion to render medical attention to President Kennedy on November 22, 1963?

Dr. Giesecke. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Will you outline the circumstances under which you were called into that matter?

Dr. Giesecke. I was eating lunch in the cafeteria when Dr. Jenkins approached the table and told me that the President had been shot and asked me to bring some resuscitative equipment from the operating room to the emergency room, which I did.

Mr. Specter. And at what time did you arrive at the emergency room, approximately?

Dr. Giesecke. Can I look and see when I induced the Governor?

Mr. Specter. Yes. May the record show that Dr. Giesecke is now referring to a letter from A. H. Giesecke, Jr., M.D., to Mr. C. J. Price, administrator, dated November 25, 1963, which I will ask the reporter to mark as "Dr. Giesecke's Exhibit No. 1."

(Instrument referred to marked by the reporter as "Dr. Giesecke Exhibit No. 1," for identification.)

Mr. Specter. Let me ask you a question or two, first about this, Dr. Giesecke, to qualify—is this a copy of the report which you submitted to Mr. Price?

Dr. Giesecke. Yes, that is a real copy.

Mr. Specter. And all the facts contained in this report are true and correct?

Dr. Giesecke. Yes.

Mr. Specter. And do they concern the treatment which was rendered by you to President Kennedy and Governor Connally?

Dr. Giesecke. That's correct.

Mr. Specter. Now, refer to that if you wish, if it will help you answer the last question.

Dr. Giesecke. I arrived in the emergency room at 12:40 p.m., between 12:40 and 12:45.

Mr. Specter. And who was present at the time you arrived?

Dr. Giesecke. Dr. Jenkins was present, Dr. Carrico, Dr. Dulany, Dr. Baxter, Dr. Perry, Dr. McClelland, and Drs. Akin and Hunt arrived at the same time that I did.

Mr. Specter. Were there any other people present, such as nurses?

Dr. Giesecke. Mrs. Kennedy was in the room—I could not say—I can't say who else was there. There may have been a nurse there, I just don't remember. It seemed to me there was a Secret Service man there too, with Mrs. Kennedy.

Mr. Specter. Are you sure Dr. Dulany was there, as distinguished from being with Governor Connally?

74 Dr. Giesecke. Perhaps—perhaps—I'm shaky on that.

Mr. Specter. The reason I asked you about that specifically is because Dr. Carriro testified this morning that he and Dr. Dulany were on duty and Dr. Dulany went immediately with Governor Connally and Dr. Carrico went to President Kennedy.

Dr. Giesecke. That may well be.

Mr. Specter. What was the condition of the President when you arrived?

Dr. Giesecke. There was a great deal of blood loss which was apparent when he came in the room—the cart was covered with blood and there was a great deal of blood on the floor. There was—I could see no spontaneous motion on the part of the President. In other words, he made no movement during the time that I was in the room. As I moved around towards the head of the emergency cart with the anesthesia machine and the resuscitative equipment and helped Dr. Jenkins to hook the anesthesia machine up to the President to give him oxygen, I noticed that he had a very large cranial wound, with loss of brain substance, and it seemed that most of the bleeding was coming from the cranial wound.

Mr. Specter. What did you observe specifically as to the nature of the cranial wound?

Dr. Giesecke. It seemed that from the vertex to the left ear, and from the browline to the occiput on the left-hand side of the head the cranium was entirely missing.

Mr. Specter. Was that the left-hand side of the head, or the right-hand side of the head?

Dr. Giesecke. I would say the left, but this is just my memory of it.

Mr. Specter. That's your recollection?

Dr. Giesecke. Right, like I say, I was there a very short time—really.

Mr. Specter. Did you observe any other wound or bullet hole below the large area of missing skull?

Dr. Giesecke. No; when I arrived the tracheotomy was in progress at that time and so I observed no other wound except the one on the cranium.

Mr. Specter. On the cranium itself, did you observe another bullet hole below the portion of missing skull?

Dr. Giesecke. No, sir; this was found later by Dr. Clark—I didn't see this.

Mr. Specter. What makes you say that that hole was found later by Dr. Clark?

Dr. Giesecke. Well, this is hearsay—I wasn't there when they found it and I didn't notice it.

Mr. Specter. Well, Dr. Clark didn't observe that hole.

Dr. Giesecke. Oh, he didn't—I'm sorry.

Mr. Specter. From whom did you hear that the hole had been observed, if you recollect?

Dr. Giesecke. Oh—I must be confused. We talked to so many people about these things—I don't remember.

Mr. Specter. Now, with respect to the condition of the President's neck, what was its status at the time you first observed it?

Dr. Giesecke. Well, like I say, they were performing the tracheotomy, and I personally saw no wound in the neck other than the tracheotomy wound. As soon as the tracheotomy was completed, we removed the endotracheal tube and hooked the anesthesia machine to the tracheotomy tube and efforts were made then to put in a chest tube, an anterior chest tube.

Mr. Specter. How long were you with President Kennedy altogether?

Dr. Giesecke. Approximately 5 minutes.

Mr. Specter. Have you now described everything which was done during the time you were there?

Dr. Giesecke. No—after having assisted Dr. Jenkins in establishing a ventilation, I then hooked up a cardiotachioscope or an electronic electrocardiographic monitor to the President by putting needles in the skin and plugging the thing in the wall, plugging the monitor in the wall. Before the machine had sufficient time to warm up to see if there were any electrical activity, then I was called out of the room.

75 Mr. Specter. And did you have any occasion to return to the room where the President was?

Dr. Giesecke. No.

Mr. Specter. And where were you called to?

Dr. Giesecke. I was called across the hall where Governor Connally was being moved out of the emergency treatment room and toward the operating room.

Mr. Specter. And what action did you take at that time, if any?

Dr. Giesecke. I had my equipment with me—I had taken my equipment with me from the room where the President was, having ascertained that Dr. Jenkins didn't need anything that I had, and so I proceeded to the elevator. We moved the equipment and the Governor—the Governor went on the first elevator and I caught the second one.

Mr. Specter. And where did you go on the second elevator?

Dr. Giesecke. To the second floor where the operating suite is, moved off of the elevator and down to operating room 5, which was being set up for the Governor. The Governor had arrived and I obtained from the anesthesia orderly an anesthesia machine, checked it for safe operation, and discussed the Governor's condition a little bit with him, and determined that he was conscious and that he could respond to questions and that he hadn't eaten in the previous several hours, and proceeded to induce an anesthesia.

Mr. Specter. Now, are all the details of your activity in connection with Governor Connally's operation contained in the report marked "Dr. Giesecke's Exhibit No. 1"?

Dr. Giesecke. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Now, you mentioned a few minutes ago that you talked about this matter with a number of people—whom have you talked to, Dr. Giesecke?

Dr. Giesecke. Well, of course, we discussed it with Dr. Jenkins and various members of the anesthesia staff. We have discussed it with—I've forgotten that gentleman's name, but he was from the American Medical Association, as a historian. We discussed it with Dr. Mike Bush, who then reported it in the Anesthesiology Newsletter, which is a publication of the American Society of Anesthesiologists, and then discussed it with the Secretary of—may I retract that. That's about it—that's the extent of the discussion, except with other members of the surgical staff and the anesthesia staff and these people.

Mr. Specter. Have you ever discussed this matter with any representative of the Federal Government prior to today?

Dr. Giesecke. Yes; there was a well documented Secret Service man here who said he was from the Warren Commission about a month ago, I imagine.

Mr. Specter. What do you mean by "well documented"?

Dr. Giesecke. Well, I mean he had a badge and a card and he seemed to be legitimate.

Mr. Specter. And what did you tell him, if anything?

Dr. Giesecke. He was asking rather specifically if we had made other notes than the reports that we had already submitted, so in essence it was just a matter of telling him, "No, I didn't have any other information written down except what I had already given."

Mr. Specter. And what had you already given—that letter report?

Dr. Giesecke. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. That is marked "Giesecke Exhibit No. 1"?

Dr. Giesecke. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Has any other representative talked to you from the Federal Government about this matter?

Dr. Giesecke. No.

Mr. Specter. This afternoon prior to the time we went on the record, did I ask you a few questions and discuss the nature of this deposition proceeding, and did you give me information just as you have on the record here after the court reporter started to take everything down?

Dr. Giesecke. Yes; that's correct. She was out of the room for a few minutes before we started.

Mr. Specter. Do you have anything to add which you think might be helpful to the Warren Commission in its investigation?

76 Dr. Giesecke. No, I think that pretty well covers what I did.

Mr. Specter. May I thank you very much, Dr. Giesecke? That's fine.

Dr. Giesecke. Thank you.


TESTIMONY OF DR. JACKIE HANSEN HUNT

The testimony of Dr. Jackie Hansen Hunt was taken at 1:12 p.m., on March 24, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. Specter. May the record show that Dr. Jackie H. Hunt is present, and may I show for the record that the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy is conducting an inquiry into all the facts surrounding the assassination of the President, and the medical care performed on President Kennedy at Parkland Memorial Hospital.

Dr. Hunt appears here today in response to a letter requesting that her deposition be taken, and may the record reflect the additional fact that Dr. Hunt is a lady doctor.

Would you at this time, Dr. Hunt, stand up and raise your right hand?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give before the President's Commission in this deposition proceeding will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Dr. Hunt. I do, sir.

Mr. Specter. Will you state your full name, please?

Dr. Hunt. Jackie Hansen Hunt, H-a-n-s-e-n (spelling).

Mr. Specter. And what is your profession?

Dr. Hunt. Medical doctor.

Mr. Specter. And, are you duly licensed to practice medicine by the State of Texas?

Dr. Hunt. I am.

Mr. Specter. And in what year were you so licensed?

Dr. Hunt. 1950.

Mr. Specter. Will you outline briefly your educational background, please?

Dr. Hunt. I graduated from medical school at Tulane College of Medicine in 1949. I had a year of rotating internship followed by a year of pediatric residency. In 1961 I started a residency in anesthesiology, which I completed in 1963, and I am now a fellow in anesthesiology.

Mr. Specter. Are you board certified, then, Dr. Hunt, at this time?

Dr. Hunt. No.

Mr. Specter. Are you working toward board certification?

Dr. Hunt. Yes, I am. I am eligible and will take the first part in June.

Mr. Specter. Did you have occasion on November 22 to render medical aid to the late President Kennedy?

Dr. Hunt. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Will you relate briefly the circumstances surrounding your being called into the case?

Dr. Hunt. I was in Parkland Hospital on duty with the anesthesiology department and was notified by our chief of staff, Dr. M. T. Jenkins, that the President had been shot. Together with Dr. Giesecke and Dr. Akin, I got an anesthesia machine and put it on an elevator and checked it out and set it up on the way to the emergency room and took it into the emergency room where the President was and he had been intubated, and I helped Dr. Jenkins connect the anesthesia machine to the endotracheal tube which at that time was being run, I believe, by a Bird machine, and after making certain that the connections were properly done, I placed the equipment in Dr. Jenkins' hands.

Mr. Specter. What doctors were present when you arrived there, Dr. Hunt?

Dr. Hunt. Dr. Jenkins, Dr. Malc Perry—quite a number of others—I just can't remember who was there today.

77 Mr. Specter. Were any nurses present?

Dr. Hunt. Yes—I don't know the names of any of them.

Mr. Specter. What, if anything, did you observe as to the condition of President Kennedy?

Dr. Hunt. The first good look I took at him I noticed that his eyes were opened and that the pupils were widely dilated and fixed and so I assumed that he was in essence dead.

Mr. Specter. At approximately what time did you arrive in the emergency room?

Dr. Hunt. I don't know—it would have been—I would think near 12:45, but I have really never even thought about it and I frankly don't remember.

Mr. Specter. And how long after you arrived did you have an opportunity to observe the President in the way which you have just described?

Dr. Hunt. How long was it from the time I came in until I looked at him?

Mr. Specter. Yes, ma'am.

Dr. Hunt. A minute—2 minutes.

Mr. Specter. Did you have any other observations at that time?

Dr. Hunt. No—other than that everyone was working on him. They were doing cardiac massage, closed chest massage, I.V.'s were running, and others were being started.

Mr. Specter. I.V.'s?

Dr. Hunt. Intravenous fluids and, of course, our department was breathing for him.

Mr. Specter. And when you say "breathing for him," what do you mean by that?

Dr. Hunt. Ventilating him—an endotracheal tube down into the trachea attached to an anesthesia machine with 100 percent oxygen going, and by manual compression of the bag, ventilating him.

Mr. Specter. Did you observe any wounds on the President?

Dr. Hunt. I actually did not see the wounds.

Mr. Specter. Did you at any time see a wound to the head?

Dr. Hunt. No; I didn't see it.

Mr. Specter. And was there something obscuring your view from seeing the head wound?

Dr. Hunt. Yes; I could see his face and I could also see that a great deal of blood was running off of the table from his right side and I was on his left side.

Mr. Specter. Were you near his head or foot or the middle of the body?

Dr. Hunt. I was about midbody actually, well, no—more at his shoulder, when I leaned over to look at him.

Mr. Specter. Did you ever observe any wound in the neck?

Dr. Hunt. I did not actually see the wound in the neck. I say that because I assumed there was a wound—someone's hand was there and there was blood present, but there was blood on nearly everyone.

Mr. Specter. What was the condition of his throat when you first observed him, if you did observe it at all?

Dr. Hunt. I couldn't—I don't know—I can't say. You mean, as far as inside or outside?

Mr. Specter. Outside.

Dr. Hunt. I don't actually remember seeing anything except someone's hands were using a sponge or something was present in the area.

Mr. Specter. What medical operation, if any, was performed on his throat?

Dr. Hunt. I don't know.

Mr. Specter. Did you observe a tracheotomy being performed on his throat?

Dr. Hunt. No—that's not to say that they were not doing one.

Mr. Specter. What else was done for the President other than that which you have already described?

Dr. Hunt. Well, let's see, I don't—as far as actual observation, I didn't—other things were done—I left at this time and went to Governor Connally.

Mr. Specter. At about what time did you leave President Kennedy?

Dr. Hunt. I was probably in the room no more than 4 minutes at the most.

Mr. Specter. Had he been pronounced dead by the time you left?

78 Dr. Hunt. No; he had not.

Mr. Specter. And where did you go when you left the President's room?

Dr. Hunt. Straight across to operating room 2.

Mr. Specter. And what did you find in operating room 2 when you arrived there?

Dr. Hunt. Governor Connally was present there and——

Mr. Specter. What doctors, if any, were present when you arrived?

Dr. Hunt. Red Duke—I'm sorry, I just don't remember who the others were. There were three or four.

Mr. Specter. What action was being taken with respect to Governor Connally upon your arrival there?

Dr. Hunt. They were placing chest tubes, as a matter of fact, they had one in and were putting the other one in, and were—they had an I.V. going, I believe someone had done a cutdown, and they were checking other wounds. He had a wound on his arm and another wound down on his leg, I think, and that was about it—preparing to take him promptly up to surgery.

Mr. Specter. And what did you do on that occasion?

Dr. Hunt. I walked in and Dr. Duke looked up and the first thing I did was to look at the Governor—I took his pulse and he spoke to me and said something, and noted his color.

Mr. Specter. What did the Governor say to you?

Dr. Hunt. He said something like, "It hurts," not anything real specific, but he did at least speak, and it was a conscious thought type of thing, so that he was more or less alert, responding, so then I stepped back into the hall and signaled a fellow, a medical student who has been in our department, that is rotating through anesthesia, and I happened to see him just outside the door, and I asked him to please go upstairs and bring me another unit of equipment and then came back in and told Dr. Duke I had sent for equipment, although I didn't believe the Governor was going to need it, and he said that he was very glad that I had and he, too, didn't think he would need it, but he should have it as a standby, and then they brought me a machine and my table down and I stayed with the Governor until he was ready to go upstairs, but he did not require any respiratory aid because he was not that critical.

Mr. Specter. Did you participate any further with the treatment of Governor Connally?

Dr. Hunt. When we were ready to go upstairs, I went back to the room where the President was and Dr. Giesecke, who is a staff member from our department, appeared relatively free and I asked him if he would come and go upstairs with the Governor and I came on upstairs in a different route. I didn't go in the elevator with the Governor—Dr. Giesecke went with him, and helped Dr. Giesecke get under way with the surgery.

Mr. Specter. How did you go upstairs, by what route?

Dr. Hunt. I don't know—I don't remember.

Mr. Specter. Is there any other elevator going up to the operating rooms?

Dr. Hunt. Yes; there are four elevators.

Mr. Specter. But do those lead from the emergency rooms?

Dr. Hunt. No; you come down this long hallway up to those of the ground floor.

Mr. Specter. Is there more than one elevator for the stretcher to go through from the emergency room up to the second floor operating rooms?

Dr. Hunt. Yes; they can—they come up to these.

Mr. Specter. What route would they have to take to do this?

Dr. Hunt. They would have to come directly out of the emergency room and down this main hallway to this front bank of elevators.

Mr. Specter. That would be a pretty long route, would it not?

Dr. Hunt. Actually, it isn't very long. I don't know in yards or paces even, but there are three elevators there.

Mr. Specter. What route did Governor Connally use?

Dr. Hunt. I think they took him by the back elevator, the one that comes down into the emergency room.

Mr. Specter. Is that the one they customarily use to take people from the emergency area into the operating room?

79 Dr. Hunt. Yes; if there is an emergency it goes straight up—they usually use that one.

Mr. Specter. You say you went back to President Kennedy's room?

Dr. Hunt. Yes.

Mr. Specter. And what did you observe there at that time?

Dr. Hunt. At that time I did notice, and possibly this was there earlier, I noticed that they had gotten more monitoring equipment in and connected the electronic equipment for monitoring the electrocardiogram.

Mr. Specter. At what time did you return to President Kennedy's room?

Dr. Hunt. I don't know—it would probably have been maybe 3 or 4 or 5 minutes from the time I stepped out, because I went across the hall—I didn't know the Governor was there, and someone told me and I went in and just took a brief look at him to sort of size up his condition, and stepped out and sent for my equipment and went back in and stayed until they brought my equipment. It would have been a little longer than 4 or 5 minutes because they had to bring the equipment down the elevator and it had arrived and been there a few minutes—3 or 4 minutes before we were ready to take him upstairs.

Mr. Specter. And what was going on in the President's room when you returned there?

Dr. Hunt. Well, there were still a goodly number of people, oh, at least 10 people, possibly there were more—I'm not real sure, but there were still—at that time there were, I know, at least three anesthesiologists in there—Dr. Jenkins, Dr. Akin, and Dr. Giesecke, and I believe Dr. Baxter was in there, and Dr. Perry was still there.

Mr. Specter. Were they still working on the President at that time?

Dr. Hunt. Yes, sir; I don't know what they were doing.

Mr. Specter. How long did you stay on that occasion?

Dr. Hunt. Just, oh, a minute—just long enough to catch Dr. Giesecke's eye and let him know I was there and going out.

Mr. Specter. And did you ever return to the President's room?

Dr. Hunt. No; I don't believe I did—no; I'm sure I didn't, because I came on upstairs with Governor Connally.

Mr. Specter. And did you participate then with Governor Connally's operation?

Dr. Hunt. I helped Dr. Giesecke during the induction of anesthesia.

Mr. Specter. Have you talked to any representative of the Federal Government prior to today?

Dr. Hunt. No; I haven't.

Mr. Specter. Did you make any written report of your participation in the care of Governor Connally and President Kennedy?

Dr. Hunt. Not directly. Dr. Giesecke called me one day and said that, I think it was the A.M.A. was here and just wanted to verify my movements for the day, which I told him and he in turn told them that—I did not appear before them.

Mr. Specter. Did you make any written reports yourself?

Dr. Hunt. No.

Mr. Specter. Do you have any notes of any sort concerning your participation?

Dr. Hunt. None whatsoever.

Mr. Specter. Prior to the time the court reporter started to take down the transcript of my questions and your answers, did you and I have a brief discussion about the purpose of this deposition?

Dr. Hunt. Yes.

Mr. Specter. And the questions I would ask you?

Dr. Hunt. Yes.

Mr. Specter. And is the information which you have provided on the record the same as you told me before the written deposition started?

Dr. Hunt. Elaborated somewhat.

Mr. Specter. Do you have anything to add which you think might be of aid to the Commission in its investigation?

Dr. Hunt. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. Specter. Thank you very much for appearing, Dr. Hunt.

Dr. Hunt. Thank you.


80

TESTIMONY OF DR. KENNETH EVERETT SALYER

The testimony of Dr. Kenneth Everett Salyer was taken at 6:15 p.m., on March 25, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. Specter. May the record show that Dr. Kenneth Salyer is present in response to an inquiry that he appear to have his deposition taken in connection with the inquiries being conducted by the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy, which is looking into all facts of the shooting, including the wounds of the President and the care he received at Parkland Hospital.

With that preliminary statement of purpose, Dr. Salyer, will you stand up and raise your right hand?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you will give before the President's Commission in the course of this deposition will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Dr. Salyer. I do.

Mr. Specter. Have you had an opportunity to examine the document or the Executive order creating the President's Commission and Rules for the taking of testimony?

Dr. Salyer. Yes; I have.

Mr. Specter. And are you willing to have your deposition taken today without having the formal three days of written notice, which you have a right to, if you wish?

Dr. Salyer. Yes.

Mr. Specter. You are willing to waive that right, is that right?

Dr. Salyer. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Would you state your full name for the record, please?

Dr. Salyer. Kenneth Everett Salyer.

Mr. Specter. What is your profession?

Dr. Salyer. Physician.

Mr. Specter. Are you duly licensed to practice medicine by the State of Texas?

Dr. Salyer. Yes; I am.

Mr. Specter. And would you outline briefly your educational background, please?

Dr. Salyer. A B.S. degree at the University of Kansas, an M.D. degree at the University of Kansas, and internship at Parkland, and now a first year resident in surgery at Parkland Hospital.

Mr. Specter. In what year did you graduate from the University of Kansas Medical School?

Dr. Salyer. 1962.

Mr. Specter. And how old are you, Dr. Salyer?

Dr. Salyer. I am 27.

Mr. Specter. Will you relate briefly the circumstances surrounding your being called in to assist in the treatment of President Kennedy?

Dr. Salyer. Well, for the month of November, as part of our rotation on surgery, I spent that month on neurosurgery, and being on call that day for any emergencies which come in to our emergency room related to neurosurgical problems, we would be called down to the emergency room to see these, and I was upstairs viewing a movie when I heard that the President had arrived and so I thought I should go down to the emergency room and see what the situation was.

Mr. Specter. And, upon your arrival at the emergency room, who was present?

Dr. Salyer. Oh, I don't recall—I know that there were a room full of doctors—I could list specific ones that I remember if you would like.

Mr. Specter. Would you please?

Dr. Salyer. I don't really think I could give you every one, but I remember Dr. Jenkins and Dr. Perry and Dr. Baxter, and also Dr. Bob McClelland and Dr. Carrico and Dr. Crenshaw, and I think a Dr. Gene Akin was there also—at that time, when I first came in.

81 Mr. Specter. Can you think of any others?

Dr. Salyer. No; I don't recall any others—there could have been some, there were a lot of people sort of moving in and out. There certainly were a lot of nurses in there at that time.

Mr. Specter. Can you identify any of the nurses who were there?

Dr. Salyer. No; I can't.

Mr. Specter. What was the President's condition at the time you arrived?

Dr. Salyer. It was critical.

Mr. Specter. What did you observe about him with respect to any wounds he may have sustained?

Dr. Salyer. Well, I observed that he did have some sucking wound of some type on his neck, and that he also had a wound of his right temporal region—these were the two main wounds.

Mr. Specter. Did you have an opportunity to observe his throat?

Dr. Salyer. No; I really did not. I think there were a lot of people—a lot of doctors more closely around him. I might mention also, I think just right after I came in the room Dr. Clark and Dr. Grossman also arrived.

Mr. Specter. Doctor who?

Dr. Salyer. Dr. Grossman, just briefly. He's a neurosurgeon also.

Mr. Specter. What is his name?

Dr. Salyer. Dr. Grossman—Bob Grossman. He was just there, I think, briefly.

Mr. Specter. How long was he there?

Dr. Salyer. I couldn't say—I'm not sure he came in the room. I know they were together—I cannot say that for sure.

Mr. Specter. To what extent did Dr. Crenshaw participate?

Dr. Salyer. Dr. Crenshaw participated about the extent that I did. We were occupied in making sure an I.V. was going and hanging up a bottle of blood.

Mr. Specter. Is the—is Dr. Crenshaw a resident?

Dr. Salyer. Yes, he is third-year resident. That's the reason I remember him specifically because we were sort of working there together on that.

Mr. Specter. I had asked you a moment ago whether you had an opportunity to observe the condition of the President's throat.

Dr. Salyer. Right.

Mr. Specter. What was your answer to that question?

Dr. Salyer. The answer was—there were a lot of doctors standing around, and I didn't really get to observe the nature of the wound in the throat.

Mr. Specter. At approximately what time did you arrive at the emergency room where the President was situated?

Dr. Salyer. I really don't know.

Mr. Specter. What was done for the President by way of treatment that you observed?

Dr. Salyer. Well, an adequate airway eventually, of course, some external cardiac massage—he had I.V.'s—intravenous fluids going in a number of sites, and all of the acute measures we administered him.

Mr. Specter. I didn't hear you at the end of your answer.

Dr. Salyer. I said—all of the many other measures that we administered—I don't recall specifically some of the other details as far as medications and so forth.

Mr. Specter. What did you observe with respect to the head wound?

Dr. Salyer. I came in on the left side of him and noticed that his major wound seemed to be in his right temporal area, at least from the point of view that I could see him, and other than that—nothing other than he did have a gaping scalp wound—cranial wound.

Mr. Specter. Has anyone from the Federal Government talked to you about your observations of this matter?

Dr. Salyer. No one has.

Mr. Specter. Do you have anything to add which you think may be of aid to the President's Commission in its inquiry?

Dr. Salyer. No, I believe not.

Dr. Specter. Thank you very much, Dr. Salyer.

Dr. Salyer. Thank you.


82

TESTIMONY OF DR. MARTIN G. WHITE

The testimony of Dr. Martin G. White was taken at 6:35 p.m., on March 25, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. Specter. May the record show that Dr. Martin White is present in response to a request that he appear to have his deposition taken because he has been identified in prior depositions as being one of the doctors in attendance on President Kennedy.

Dr. White, have you had an opportunity to examine the Executive order creating the Presidential Commission?

Dr. White. Yes.

Mr. Specter. And have you had an opportunity to examine the resolution setting forth the rules for taking depositions?

Dr. White. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Are you willing to have your deposition taken without the 3-day notice to which you have a right under the rules, if you wish to receive formal written notice? And have three days after mailing before you appear to have your deposition taken?

Dr. White. No, I want to have it taken now.

Mr. Specter. You are willing to waive that requirement?

Dr. White. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Will you stand up, then, and raise your right hand?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give before the President's Commission in this deposition proceeding will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Dr. White. I do.

Mr. Specter. Would you state your full name for the record, please?

Dr. White. Martin G. White.

Mr. Specter. What is your profession, sir?

Dr. White. M.D.—physician.

Mr. Specter. Are you duly licensed in the State of Texas to practice medicine?

Dr. White. In this institution.

Mr. Specter. What is your educational background, please?

Dr. White. I have a bachelor of medicine degree from Northwestern University and a master of science degree from Northwestern University and a doctor of medicine degree from Northwestern University.

Mr. Specter. How old are you, Doctor?

Dr. White. Twenty-five.

Mr. Specter. Were you in attendance when President Kennedy was being treated on November 22, 1963?

Dr. White. I was.

Mr. Specter. And what were the circumstances of your being called into the case?

Dr. White. I was the intern assigned to the surgery section of the emergency room on that day and was there when the President's body was brought into the emergency room.

Mr. Specter. And what did you do in connection with the President's treatment?

Dr. White. I put an intervenous cutdown in the President's right foot.

Mr. Specter. Did you have an opportunity to observe any of his wounds?

Dr. White. I saw the wound in his head as he was brought into the trauma room where he was treated.

Mr. Specter. Did you observe any other wounds?

Dr. White. No, I did not see any other.

Mr. Specter. Did you observe specifically a wound in the neck?

Dr. White. I did not look and did not observe any.

Mr. Specter. How long were you present while the President was being treated?

Dr. White. I would estimate about 10 to 15 minutes.

83 Mr. Specter. And did you leave prior to the time he was pronounced to be dead?

Dr. White. Yes; I did.

Mr. Specter. Why did you leave?

Dr. White. My duties had been completed and there was work elsewhere, with the Governor, to be done.

Mr. Specter. Who was present at the time you were there, Dr. White?

Dr. White. As best I can recall, Dr. Carrico and I were the physicians immediately present when the President's body was brought in, plus a number of individuals who accompanied the cart on which his body was lying, and the only individual who I knew in that group was his wife, Mrs. Kennedy.

Mr. Specter. And what doctors were present at the time you left the room?

Dr. White. Well, it would be impossible for me to tell you all the people that were there, but I knew Dr. Carrico, Dr. Baxter, Dr. Perry and Dr. Zedelitz, Z-e-d-e-l-i-t-z (spelling)—I know they were there.

Mr. Specter. Doctor who—what is his first name?

Dr. White. William Zedelitz.

Mr. Specter. To what extent did he participate?

Dr. White. I don't believe that he had any—I don't know what he did other than the fact that when I was doing the cutdown he assisted me by just placing some tape over the catheters we used to do this with.

Mr. Specter. Is he an intern as you are?

Dr. White. He is a surgical resident here at this hospital.

Mr. Specter. Who else was present?

Dr. White. I can't be sure that I saw anyone else, although, as I say—many people were there whose faces I can't recall.

Mr. Specter. Can you identify any of the nurses who were present?

Dr. White. Yes; one of the nurses—there were two there, Jeanette, and her last name—I don't know at the present time, and she is chief nurse in the emergency room.

Mr. Specter. Doris Nelson?

Dr. White. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Jeanette Standridge?

Dr. White. Yes; Jeanette Standridge was the other nurse.

Mr. Specter. Do you have anything to add which you think might be of help to the Commission?

Dr. White. No; I don't.

Mr. Specter. Thank you very much, Dr. White for coming.

Dr. White. All right, thank you.


TESTIMONY OF DR. ROBERT SHAW

The testimony of Dr. Robert Shaw was taken at 6 p.m., on March 23, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. Specter. May the record show that Dr. Robert Shaw is present, having responded to a request to have his deposition taken in connection with the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy, which is investigating all facts relating to the medical care of President Kennedy and Governor Connally, and Dr. Shaw has been requested to appear and testify concerning the treatment on Governor Connally.

Dr. Shaw, will you rise and raise your right hand, please.

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give before the President's Commission in the course of this deposition proceeding will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Dr. Shaw. I do.

Mr. Specter. Will you state your full name for the record, please?

84 Dr. Shaw. Robert Roeder Shaw.

Mr. Specter. And what is your profession, sir?

Dr. Shaw. Physician and surgeon.

Mr. Specter. Will you outline briefly your educational background, please?

Dr. Shaw. I received my B.A. degree from the University of Michigan in 1927 and M.D. degree in 1933. My surgical training was obtained at Roosevelt Hospital in New York City, July 1934 to July 1936, and my training in thoracic surgery at the University Hospital, Ann Arbor, Mich., July 1936 to July 1938. Do you want me to say what happened subsequent to then?

Mr. Specter. Yes; will you outline your medical career in brief form subsequent to that date, please?

Dr. Shaw. I entered private practice, limited to thoracic surgery, August 1, 1938. I have continuously practiced this specialty in Dallas, with the exception of the period from June 1942 to December 1945, when I was a member of the Medical Corps of the Army of the United States, serving almost all of this period in the European theatre of operations. I was again absent from Dallas from December 1961 until June 1963, when I headed the medico team and performed surgery at the Avicenna Hospital at Kabul, Afghanistan.

Mr. Specter. Are you Board certified, Dr. Shaw?

Dr. Shaw. Yes. I am certified by the Board of Thoracic Surgery, date of certification—1948. At the present time I am professor of thoracic surgery and chairman of the division of thoracic surgery at the University of Texas, Southwestern Medical School.

Mr. Specter. Did you have occasion to perform any medical care for President Kennedy on November 22, 1963?

Dr. Shaw. No.

Mr. Specter. Did you have occasion to care for Governor Connally?

Dr. Shaw. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Would you relate the circumstances of your being called in to care for the Governor, please?

Dr. Shaw. I was returning to Parkland Hospital and the medical school from a conference I had attended at Woodlawn Hospital, which is approximately a mile away, when I saw an open limousine going past the intersection of Industrial Boulevard and Harry Hines Boulevard under police escort. As soon as traffic had cleared, I proceeded on to the medical school. On the car radio I heard that the President had been shot at while riding in the motorcade. Upon entering the medical school, a medical student came in and joined three other medical students. He stated that President Kennedy had been brought in dead on arrival to the emergency room of Parkland Hospital and that Governor Connally had been shot through the chest. Upon hearing this, I proceeded immediately to the emergency room of the hospital and arrived at the emergency room approximately 5 minutes after the President and Governor Connally had arrived.

Mr. Specter. Where did you find Governor Connally at that time, Dr. Shaw?

Dr. Shaw. I found Governor Connally lying on a stretcher in emergency room No. 2. In attendance were several men, Dr. James Duke, Dr. David Mebane, Dr. Giesecke, an anesthesiologist. As emergency measures, the open wound on the Governor's right chest had been covered with a heavy dressing and manual pressure was being applied. A drainage tube had been inserted into the second interspace in the anterior portion of the right chest and connected to a water-sealed bottle to bring about partial reexpansion of the collapsed right lung. An intravenous needle had been inserted into a vein in the left arm and intravenous fluid was running.

I was informed by Dr. Duke that blood had already been drawn and sent to the laboratory to be crossmatched with 4 pints of blood, to be available at surgery. He also stated that the operating room had been alerted and that they were merely waiting for my arrival to take the Governor to surgery, since it was obvious that the wound would have to be debrided and closed.

Mr. Specter. At what time did the operation actually start, Dr. Shaw?

Dr. Shaw. That, I would have to refresh my memory on that—now, this, of course—the point he began the anesthesia—that would be about right—but I have to refresh my memory.

85 Mr. Specter. Permit me to make available on the record for you the operative record which has been heretofore marked as Commission Exhibit No. 392, with the exhibit consisting of the records of Parkland Hospital on President Kennedy as well as Governor Connally and I call your attention to a 2-page report which bears your name as the surgeon, under date of November 22, 1963, of thoracic surgery for Governor Connally, and, first, I ask you if in fact this report was prepared by you?

Dr. Shaw. It was.

Mr. Specter. Now, with that report, is your recollection refreshed as to the starting time of the operation on Governor Connally's chest?

Dr. Shaw. Yes; the anesthesia was begun at 1300 hours.

Mr. Specter. Which would be 1 p.m.?

Dr. Shaw. 1 p.m., and the actual incision was made at 1335 or 1:35 p.m.

Mr. Specter. And what time did that operation conclude?

Dr. Shaw. My operation was completed at 1520 hours, or 3:20.

Mr. Specter. Will you describe Governor Connally's condition, Dr. Shaw, directing your attention first to the wound on his back?

Dr. Shaw. When Governor Connally was examined, it was found that there was a small wound of entrance, roughly elliptical in shape, and approximately a cm. and a half in its longest diameter, in the right posterior shoulder, which is medial to the fold of the axilla.

Mr. Specter. What is the axilla, in lay language, Dr. Shaw?

Dr. Shaw. The arm pit.

Mr. Specter. Dr. Shaw, will you describe next the wound of exit?

Dr. Shaw. Yes; the wound of exit was below and slightly medial to the nipple on the anterior right chest. It was a round, ragged wound, approximately 5 cm. in diameter. This wound had obviously torn the pleura, since it was a sucking wound, allowing air to pass to and fro between the pleura cavity and the outside of the body.

Mr. Specter. Define the pleura, please, Doctor, in lay language.

Dr. Shaw. The pleura is the lining of the chest cavity with one layer of pleura, the parietal pleura lining the inside of the chest wall, diaphragm and the mediastinum, which is the compartment of the body containing the heart, its pericardial sac, and great vessels.

Mr. Specter. What were the characteristics of these two bullet wounds which led you to believe that one was a wound of entry and one was a wound of exit, Dr. Shaw?

Dr. Shaw. The wound of entrance is almost invariably the smaller wound, since it perforates the skin and makes a wound approximately or slightly larger than the missile. The wound of exit, especially if it has shattered any bony material in the body, will be the larger of the wounds.

Mr. Specter. What experience, Doctor, have you had, if any, in evaluating gunshot wounds?

Dr. Shaw. I have had considerable experience with gunshot wounds and wounds due to missiles because of my war experience. This experience was not only during the almost 2 years in England, but during the time that I was head of the Thoracic Center in Paris, France, for a period of approximately a year.

Mr. Specter. Would you be able to give an approximation of the total number of bullet wounds you have had occasion to observe and treat?

Dr. Shaw. Considering the war experience and the addition of wounds seen in civilian practice, it probably would number well over a thousand, since we had over 900 admissions to the hospital in Paris.

Mr. Specter. What was the line of trajectory, Dr. Shaw, between the point in the back of the Governor and the point in the front of the Governor, where the bullet wounds were observed?

Dr. Shaw. Considering the wound of entrance and the wound of exit, the trajectory of the bullet was obliquely downward, considering the fact that the Governor was in a sitting position at the time of wounding.

Mr. Specter. As an illustrative guide here, Dr. Shaw——

Dr. Shaw. May I add one sentence there?

Mr. Specter. Please do.

86 Dr. Shaw. The bullet, in passing through the Governor's chest wall struck the fifth rib at its midpoint and roughly followed the slanting direction of the fifth rib, shattering approximately 10 cm. of the rib. The intercostal muscle bundle above the fifth rib and below the fifth rib were surprisingly spared from injury by the shattering of the rib, which again establishes the trajectory of the bullet.

Mr. Specter. Would the shattering of the rib have had any effect in deflecting the path of the bullet from a straight line?

Dr. Shaw. It could have, except that in the case of this injury, the rib was obviously struck so that not too dense cancellus portion of the rib in this position was carried away by the bullet and probably there was very little in the way of deflection.

Mr. Specter. At this time, Dr. Shaw, I would like to call your attention to an exhibit which we have already had marked as Dr. Gregory's Exhibit No. 1, because we have used this in the course of his deposition earlier today and this is a body diagram, and I ask you, first of all, looking at Diagram No. 1, to comment as to whether the point of entry marked on the right shoulder of Governor Connally is accurate?

Dr. Shaw. Yes. The point of entry as marked on this exhibit I consider to be quite accurate.

Mr. Specter. Is the size and dimension of the hole accurate on scale, or would you care to make any adjustment or modification in that characterization by picture?

Dr. Shaw. As the wound entry is marked on this figure, I would say that the scale is larger than the actual wound or the actual depicting of the wound should be. As I described it, it was approximately a centimeter and a half in length.

Mr. Specter. Would you draw, Dr. Shaw, right above the shoulder as best you can recollect, what that wound of entry appeared at the time you first observed it? Would you put your initials right beside that?

(The witness, Dr. Shaw, complied with the request of Counsel Specter.)

Mr. Specter. Now, directing your attention to the figure right beside, showing the front view, does the point of exit on the lower chest of the figure there correspond with the point of exit on the body of Governor Connally?

Dr. Shaw. Yes; I would say that it conforms in every way except that it was a little nearer to the right nipple than depicted here.

Off the record, just a minute.

(Discussion between Counsel Specter and the witness, Dr. Shaw, off the record.)

Mr. Specter. Dr. Shaw, in our off-the-record conversation, you called my attention to your thought that the nipple line is incorrectly depicted on that figure, would you, therefore, in ink mark on there the nipple line which would be more accurate proportionately to that body?

Dr. Shaw. Yes; I feel the nipple line as shown on this figure is a little high and should be placed at a lower point on the body, which would bring the wound of exit, which I feel is in the proper position, more in line with the actual position of the nipple.

Mr. Specter. Now, with the wound of exit as it is shown there, does that correspond in position with the actual situation on Governor Connally's body as you have redrawn the proportion to the nipple line?

Dr. Shaw. It does.

Mr. Specter. Would you put an "X" through the old nipple line so we have obscured that and put your initials beside those two marks, if you would, please?

Dr. Shaw. By the "X-1"?

Mr. Specter. Yes, please.

(The witness, Dr. Shaw, complied with request of Counsel Specter in drawing on the figure heretofore mentioned.)

Mr. Specter. Now, as to the proportion of the hole depicting the point of exit, is that correct with respect to characterizing the situation on Governor Connally?

Dr. Shaw. It is, and corresponds with the relative size of the two wounds as I have shown on the other figure.

87 Mr. Specter. Would you at this time, right above the right shoulder there, draw the appearances of the point of exit as nearly as you can recollect it on Governor Connally?

Dr. Shaw. This is right.

Mr. Specter. You say the hole which appears on Governor Connally is just about the size that it would have been on his body?

Dr. Shaw. Yes; it is drawn in good scale.

Mr. Specter. In good scale to the body?

Dr. Shaw. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Would you draw it on another portion of the paper here in terms of its absolute size?

Dr. Shaw. Five cm. it would be—about like that—do you want me to mark that?

Mr. Specter. Put your initials right in the center of that circle.

Dr. Shaw. I'll just put "wound of exit."

Mr. Specter. Fine—just put "wound of exit—actual size" and put your initials under it.

(The witness, Dr. Shaw, complied with request of Counsel Specter.)

Mr. Specter. Let the record show that Dr. Shaw has marked "wound of exit—actual size" with his initials R.R.S. on the diagram 1.

Now, looking at diagram 2, Dr. Shaw, does the angle of declination on the figure correspond with the angle that the bullet passed through Governor Connally's chest?

Dr. Shaw. It does.

Mr. Specter. Is there any feature of diagram 3 which is useful in further elaborating that which you have commented about on diagram 1?

Dr. Shaw. No. Again off the record?

Mr. Specter. All right, off the record.

(Discussion between Counsel Specter and the witness, Dr. Shaw, off the record.)

Mr. Specter. You have just commented off the record, Dr. Shaw, that the wound of entry is too large proportionately to the wound of exit, but aside from that, is there anything else on diagram 3 which will be helpful to us?

Dr. Shaw. No.

Mr. Specter. Is there anything else on diagram 4 which would be helpful by way of elaborating that which appeared on diagram 2?

Dr. Shaw. No.

Mr. Specter. Now as to the treatment or operative procedure which you performed on Governor Connally, would you now describe what you did for him?

Dr. Shaw. As soon as anesthesia had been established and an endotracheal tube was in place so that respiration could be controlled with positive pressure, the large occlusive dressing which had been applied in the emergency room was removed. This permitted better inspection of the wound of exit, air passed to and fro through the damaged chest wall, there was obvious softening of the bony framework of the chest wall as evidenced by exaggerated motion underneath the skin along the line of the trajectory of the missile.

The skin of the chest wall axilla and back were thoroughly cleaned and aseptic solution was applied for further cleaning of the skin, the whole area was draped so as to permit access to both the wound of exit and the entrance wound. Temporarily, the wound of entrance was covered with a sterile towel.

First an elliptical incision was made to remove the ragged edges of the wound of exit. This incision was then extended laterally and upward in a curved direction so as to not have the incision through the skin and subcutaneous tissue directly over the line of the trajectory of the bullet where the chest had been softened.

It was found that approximately 10 cm. of the fifth rib had been shattered and the rib fragments acting as secondary missiles had been the major contributing factor to the damage to the anterior chest wall and to the underlying lung.

Mr. Specter. What do you mean, Doctor, by the words "fragments acting as secondary missiles"?

88 Dr. Shaw. When bone is struck by a high velocity missile it fragments and acts much like bowling pins when they are struck by a bowling ball—they fly in all directions.

Mr. Specter. Will you continue now and further describe the treatment which you performed?

Dr. Shaw. The bony fragments were removed along with all obviously damaged muscle. It was found that the fourth and fifth intercoastal muscle bundles were almost completely intact where the rib had been stripped out. There was damage to the latissimus dorsi muscle, but this was more in the way of laceration, so that the damage could be repaired by suture. The portion of parietal pleura which had not been torn by the injury was opened along the length of the resected portion of the fifth rib. The jagged ends of the fifth rib were cleaned with a rongeur; approximately 200 cc. of clot and liquid blood was removed from the pleura cavity; inspection of the lung revealed that the middle lobe had a long tear which separated the lobe into approximately two equal segments. This tear extended up into the hilum of the lobe, but had not torn a major bronchus or a major blood vessel. The middle lobe was repaired with a running No. 3 O chromic gut approximating the tissue of the depths of the lobe, with two sutures, and then approximating the visceral pleura on both the medial and lateral surface with a running suture of the same material—same gut.

Upon repair of the lobe it expanded well upon pressure on the anesthetic bag with very little in the way of peripheral leak.

Attention was next turned to the lower lobe. There was a large hematoma in the anterior basal segment of the right lower lobe extending on into the median basal segment. At one point there was a laceration in the surface of the lobe approximating a centimeter in length, undoubtedly caused by one of the penetrating rib fragments. A single mattress suture No. 3 O chromic gut on an atromitac needle was used to close this laceration from which blood was oozing.

Next, the diaphragm and all parts of the right mediastinum was examined but no injury was found.

The portion of the drainage tube which had already been placed in the second interspace in the anterior axillary line which protruded into the chest was cut away, since it was deemed to be longer than necessary. A second drainage tube was placed through a stab wound in the eighth interspace in the posterior axillary line and both of these tubes were connected to a water sealed bottle. The fourth and fifth intercoastal muscle bundles were then approximated with interrupted sutures of No. O chromic gut.

The remaining portion of the serratus anterior muscle was then approximated across the closure of the intercostal muscles. The laceration at the latissimus dorsi muscle was then approximated with No. O chromic guts suture. Before closing the skin and subcutaneous tissue a stab wound approximately 2 cm. in length was made near the lower tip of the right scapula and a latex rubber drain was drawn up through this stab wound to drain subscapular space. This drain was marked with a safety pin. The subcutaneous tissue was then closed with interrupted sutures of No. O chromic gut, inverting the knots. The skin was closed with interrupted vertical mattress sutures of black silk.

Attention was next turned to the wound of entrance. The skin surrounding the wound was removed in an elliptical fashion, enlarging the incision to approximately 3 cm. Examination of the depths of this wound reveal that the latissimus dorsi muscle alone was injured, and the latex rubber drain could be felt immediately below the laceration in the muscle. A single mattress suture was used to close the laceration in the muscle. The skin was then closed with interrupted vertical mattress sutures of black silk. The drainage tubes going into the pleura cavity were then secured with safety pins and adhesive tape and a dressing applied to the entire incision. This concluded the operation for the wound of the chest, and at this point Dr. Gregory and Dr. Shires entered the operating room to care for the wounds of the right wrist and left thigh.

Mr. Specter. What did you observe, Dr. Shaw, as to the wound of the right wrist?

Dr. Shaw. Well, I would have to say that my observations are probably not accurate. I knew that the wound of the wrist had fractured the lower end of89 the right radius and I saw one large wound on the—I guess you would call it the volar surface of the right arm and a small wound on the dorsum of the right wrist.

Mr. Specter. Which appeared to you to be the point of entrance, Dr. Shaw?

Dr. Shaw. To me, I felt that the wound of entrance was the wound on the volar surface or the anterior surface with the hand held in the upright or the supine position, with the wound of exit being the small wound on the dorsum.

Mr. Specter. What were the characteristics of those wounds which led you to that conclusion?

Dr. Shaw. Although the wound of entrance, I mean, although the wound that I felt was a wound of entrance was the larger of the two, it was my feeling that considering the large wound of exit from the chest, that this was consistent with the wound that I saw on the wrist. May we go off the record?

Mr. Specter. Sure.

(Discussion between Counsel Specter and the witness Dr. Shaw off the record.)

Mr. Specter. Now, let's go back on the record.

Dr. Shaw. I'll start by saying that my examination of the wrist was a cursory one because I realized that Dr. Gregory was going to have the responsibility of doing what was necessary surgically for this wrist.

Mr. Specter. Had you conferred with him preliminarily to starting your operation on the chest so that you knew he would be standing by, I believe as you testified earlier, to perform the wrist operation?

Dr. Shaw. Yes—Dr. Gregory was in the hallway of the operating room before I went in to operate on Governor Connally and while I was scrubbing preparatory to the operation, I told him that there was a compound comminuted fracture of the radius of the Governor's right hand that would need his attention.

Mr. Specter. Let the record show that while we were off the record here a moment ago, Dr. Shaw, you and I were discussing the possible angles at which the Governor might have been sitting in relation to a trajectory of a bullet consistent with the observations which you recollect and consistent with what seems to have been a natural position for the Governor to have maintained, in the light of your view of the situation. And with that in mind, let me resume the questioning and put on the record very much of the comments and observations you were making as you and I were discussing off the record as this deposition has proceeded.

Now, you have described a larger wound on the volar or palm side of the wrist than was present on the dorsal or back side of the wrist, and you have expressed the opinion that it was the point of entry on the volar side of the wrist as opposed to a point of exit on the back side of the wrist, even though as you earlier said, ordinarily the point of entry is smaller and the point of exit is larger.

Now, will you repeat for the record, Dr. Shaw, the thinking—your thinking which might explain a larger point of entry and a smaller point of exit on the wrist.

Dr. Shaw. Yes. As a matter of fact, when I first examined Governor Connally's wrist, I did not notice the small wound on the dorsum of the wrist and only saw the much larger wound on the radial side of the volar surface of the wrist. I didn't know about the second small wound until I came in when Dr. Gregory was concluding his operation on the wrist. He informed me that there was another small wound through the skin through which a missile had obviously passed.

Mr. Specter. Now, which wound was that, Dr. Shaw?

Dr. Shaw. This was the wound on the dorsum or the dorsal surface of the wrist.

Mr. Specter. Did you then observe that wound?

Dr. Shaw. Yes; I saw this wound.

Mr. Specter. And where was that wound located to the best of your recollection?

Dr. Shaw. This wound was slightly more distal on the arm than the larger wound and located almost in the midportion of the dorsum of the wrist.

90 Mr. Specter. Would that correspond with this location which I read from Dr. Gregory's report on the dorsal aspect of the right wrist over the junction of the distal fourth of the radius and shaft approximately 2 cm. in length.

Dr. Shaw. The wound was approximately 2 cm. in length?

Mr. Specter. Yes; would that correspond with the wound which you observed?

Dr. Shaw. Yes; I saw it at the time that he was closing it and that would correspond with the wound I observed.

Mr. Specter. He has described that as what he concluded to be the wound of entry on the dorsal aspect of the right wrist, but your thought was that perhaps that was the wound of exit?

Dr. Shaw. Yes; in trying to reconstruct the position of Governor Connally's body, sitting in the jump seat of the limousine, and the attitude that he would assume in turning to the right—this motion would naturally bring the volar surface of the right wrist in contact with the anterior portion of the right chest.

Mr. Specter. Well, is your principal reason for thinking that the wound on the dorsal aspect is a wound of exit rather than a wound of entry because of what you consider to be the awkward position in having the dorsal aspect of the wrist either pointing upward or toward the chest?

Dr. Shaw. Yes, I think I am influenced a great deal by the fact that in trying to assume this position, I can't comfortably turn my arm into a position that would explain the wound of the dorsal surface of the wrist as a wound of entrance, knowing where the missile came out of the chest and assuming that one missile caused both the chest wound and the arm wound.

Mr. Specter. Might not then that conclusion be affected if you discard the assumption that one missile caused all the wounds?

Dr. Shaw. Yes, if two missiles struck the Governor, then it would not be necessary to assume that the larger wound is the wound of entrance.

Mr. Specter. Now, would not another explanation for the presence of a wound on the dorsal aspect of the wrist be if the Governor were sitting in an upright position on the jump seat with his arm resting either on an arm rest inside the car or on a window of the car with the elbow protruding outward, and as he turned around, turning in a rotary motion, his wrist somewhat toward his body so that it was present in an angle of approximately 45 degrees to his body, being slightly moving toward his body.

Dr. Shaw. Well, I myself, am not able to get my arm into that position. If the wound, as I assume to be in the midportion of the forearm here and the wound of exit would be here (illustrating) I can't get my arm into that position as to correspond to what we know about the trajectory of the bullet into the chest.

Mr. Specter. Assuming that the bullet through the chest then also went through the wrist?

Dr. Shaw. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Now, aside from the trajectory and the explanation of one bullet causing all the damage and focusing just on the nature of the wound on the wrist, what conclusion would you reach as to which was the point of entrance and which was the point of exit?

Dr. Shaw. I would feel that the wound on the volar surface of the wrist was the wound of entrance and that perhaps the bullet being partially spent by its passage through the chest wall, struck the radius, fragmenting it, but didn't pass through the wrist, and perhaps tumbled out into the clothing of Governor Connally with only a small fragment of this bullet passing on through the wrist to go out into the left thigh.

Mr. Specter. Now, would that be consistent with a fragment passing through the wrist which was so small that virtually the entire missile, or 158 grains of it, would remain in the central missile?

Dr. Shaw. Yes. The wound on the volar surface, I'm sorry, on the dorsum of the wrist and the wound in the thigh which was obviously a wound of entrance, since the fragment is still within the thigh, were not too dissimilar in size.

Mr. Specter. Was the wound in the thigh itself, that is, aside from the size91 of the fragment which remains in the leg, as small as the hole on the dorsal aspect of the wrist?

Dr. Shaw. My memory is that the wound in the thigh through the skin was about the same as the mound on the skin of the dorsum of the wrist, but I didn't make an accurate observation at the time.

Mr. Specter. Would your thinking on that be affected any if I informed you that Dr. Shires was of the view and had the recollection that the wound on the thigh was much larger than a hole accounted for by the size of fragments which remained in the femur.

Dr. Shaw. Of course, Dr. Shires actually treated and closed this wound, but since this wound was made through the skin in a tangential manner——

Mr. Specter. Now, you are referring to the wound of the thigh?

Dr. Shaw. I am referring to the wound of the thigh—was made in a tangential manner, it did not go in at a direct right angle, the slit in the skin in the thigh could be considerably longer than the actual size of the missile itself, because this is a sharp fragment that would make a cutting—it would cause a laceration rather than a puncture wound.

Mr. Specter. So, the hole in the thigh would be consistent with a very small fragment in the femur?

Dr. Shaw. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Now, a moment ago I asked you what would be your opinion as to the point of entry and the point of exit based solely on the appearances of the holes on the dorsal and volar aspects of the wrist, and you responded that you still thought, or that you did think that the volar aspect was the point of entry with the additional thought that the missile might not have gone through the wrist, but only a fraction having gone through the wrist—now, my question is in giving that answer, did you consider at that time the hypothesis that the wound on the wrist was caused by the same missile which went through the Governor's chest, or was that answer solely in response to the characteristics of the wound on the wrist alone?

Dr. Shaw. I have always felt that the wounds of Governor Connally could be explained by the passage of one missile through his chest, striking his wrist and a fragment of it going on into his left thigh. I had never entertained the idea that he had been struck by a second missile.

Mr. Specter. Well, focusing for just a minute on the limited question of the physical characteristics of the wounds on the wrist, if you had that and nothing more in this case to go on, what would your opinion be as to which point was entry and which point was exit?

Dr. Shaw. Ordinarily, we usually find the wound of entrance is smaller than the wound of exit. In the Governor's wound on the wrist, however, if the wound on the dorsum of the wrist is the wound of entrance, and this large missile passed directly through his radius, I'm not clear as to why there was not a larger wound of exit than there was.

Mr. Specter. You mean on the volar aspect?

Dr. Shaw. Yes; if a whole bullet hit here——

Mr. Specter. Indicating the dorsal aspect?

Dr. Shaw. Yes; and came out through here, why it didn't carry more bone out through the wrist than it did, and the bone was left in the wrist—the bone did not come out. In other words, when it struck the fifth rib it made a hole this big around (indicating) in the chest in carrying bone fragments out through the chest wall.

Mr. Specter. Wouldn't that same question arise if it went through the volar aspect and exited through the dorsal aspect?

Dr. Shaw. It wouldn't if you postulated that the bullet did not pass through the wrist, but struck the wrist.

Mr. Specter. That would be present in either event, though, if you postulated if the bullet struck the dorsal aspect of the wrist, and did not pass through, but only a missile passed through the volar aspect.

Dr. Shaw. Yes; in that case, however, considering the wound of exit from the chest, and if that same bullet went on through the wrist, I would still expect a pretty good wound of entrance.

Mr. Specter. You see, I am trying now, Dr. Shaw, to disassociate the thought92 that this is the same missile, so that I'm trying to look at it just from the physical characteristics of the appearance of the wounds on the two sides of the wrist.

Dr. Shaw. May we go off the record just a minute?

Mr. Specter. Sure—off the record.

(Discussion between Counsel Specter and the witness, Dr. Shaw, off the record.)

Mr. Specter. Let us go back on the record and let the record reflect that we have been discussing another aspect concerning Dr. Shaw's thought that if the main missile had gone through the entire radius, that there would have been more damage, presumably, to the arteries and tendons on the underside of the wrist, and I then called Dr. Shaw's attention to one additional factor in Dr. Gregory's testimony which is reflected in his report that "on the radial side of the arm, small fine bits of cloth consistent with fine bits of mohair were found," which was one of the reasons for Dr. Gregory's thinking that the path was from the dorsal aspect to the volar aspect.

Dr. Shaw. Yes.

Mr. Specter. And Dr. Shaw's reply, if this is correct, Doctor, that you would know of no readily available explanation for that factor in the situation?

Dr. Shaw. Except that it might have been carried by the small fragment which obviously passed through the wrist and attached to that.

Mr. Specter. But could the fragment have carried it from the radial side on it if it had been traveling from the volar side to the radial side?

Dr. Shaw. Yes; it could have carried it through and deposited it on the way through.

Mr. Specter. I see, so it might have started on the volar aspect and could have gone on through.

Dr. Shaw. You know, if we could get that suit of his, it would help a lot.

Mr. Specter. Well, we are going to examine clothing if at all possible.

Dr. Shaw. Because, I think it would have been almost impossible—I think if you examine the clothing and if you had a hole here in his coat and no hole on this side——

Mr. Specter. Indicating a hole on the femur side——

Dr. Shaw. That would almost clear that thing up.

Mr. Specter. Yes; it would be very informational in our analysis of the situation.

Dr. Shaw. I doubt if there is a hole in both sides of the sleeve—the sleeve wouldn't be quite that long, I don't think.

Mr. Specter. Dr. Shaw, my next question involves whether you have ever had a conversation with Governor Connally about the sequence of events of the day he was shot?

Dr. Shaw. Yes, we have talked on more than one occasion about this. The Governor admits that certain aspects of the whole incident are a bit hazy. He remembers hearing a shot. He recognized it as a rifle shot and turned to the right to see whether President Kennedy had been injured. He recognized that the President had been injured, but almost immediately, he stated, that he felt a severe shock to his right chest. He immediately experienced some difficulty in breathing, and as he stated to me, he thought that he had received a mortal wound.

Mr. Specter. Did he tell you why he thought the wound was mortal?

Dr. Shaw. He just knew that he was badly hit, as he expressed it.

Mr. Specter. Did he comment on whether or not he heard a second shot before he felt this wound in his chest?

Dr. Shaw. He says that he did not hear a second shot, but did hear—no, wait a minute, I shouldn't say that. He heard only two shots so that he doesn't know which shot other than the first one he did not hear. He only remembers hearing two shots, his wife says distinctly she heard three.

Mr. Specter. Mrs. Connally said she heard three?

Dr. Shaw. Mrs. Connally distinctly remembered three shots.

Mr. Specter. And, Governor Connally said he heard two shots?

Dr. Shaw. Two shots.

Mr. Specter. Would that not be consistent with a situation where he was hit by the second shot and lost consciousness?

93 Dr. Shaw. Yes; the shock of the wounding might have prevented him from hearing the rifle report.

Mr. Specter. Would you have expected him to hear a third shot after he was wounded by a second shot?

Dr. Shaw. He didn't lose consciousness at that time, although he said he did lose consciousness during a part of the trip from the point of wounding to the hospital.

Mr. Specter. Did Governor Connally tell you whether or not he heard President Kennedy say anything?

Dr. Shaw. He said that all he heard was the President say, "Oh," that's the only thing he told me.

Mr. Specter. Did Mrs. Connally state whether or not she heard the President say anything?

Dr. Shaw. My memory isn't good for that. I don't remember what Mrs. Connally told me on that.

Mr. Specter. Are you continuing to treat Governor Connally at the present time?

Dr. Shaw. Yes, although the treatment of the chest is practically at an end, because the chest has reached a satisfactory state of healing.

Mr. Specter. Did you continue to treat the Governor all during his stay at Parkland Hospital?

Dr. Shaw. Yes, I attended him several times daily.

Mr. Specter. Dr. Shaw, would you think it consistent with the facts that you know as to Governor Connally's wounds that he could have been struck by the same bullet which passed through President Kennedy, assuming that a missile with the muzzle velocity of 2,000 feet per second, a 6.5-millimeter bullet, passed through President Kennedy at a distance of 160 to 250 feet from the rifle, passing through President Kennedy's body, entering on his back and striking only soft tissue and exiting on his neck; could that missile have also gone through Governor Connally's chest in your opinion?

Dr. Shaw. Yes, taking your description of the first wound sustained by the President, which I, myself, did not observe, and considering the position of the two men in the limousine, I think it would be perfectly possible for the first bullet to have passed through the soft tissues of the neck of President Kennedy and produced the wounds that we found on Governor Connally.

Mr. Specter. Could that bullet then have produced all the wounds that you found on Governor Connally?

Dr. Shaw. Yes, I would still be postulating that Governor Connally was struck by one missile.

Mr. Specter. Now, as you sit here at the moment on your postulation that Governor Connally was struck by one missile, is that in a way which is depicted by diagram No. 5 on the exhibit heretofore marked as "Dr. Gregory's Exhibit No. 1?"

Dr. Shaw. Yes; I feel that the line of trajectory as marked on this diagram is accurate as it could be placed from my memory of this wound.

Mr. Specter. And, on that trajectory, how do you postulate the bullet then passed through the wrist from dorsal to volar or from volar to dorsal?

Dr. Shaw. My postulation would be from volar to dorsal.

Mr. Specter. Now, then, going back to diagram No. 1, Dr. Shaw, there is one factor that we did not call your attention to or have you testify about, and that is—the marking that the exit is on the volar side and the entry is on the dorsal side as it was remarked by Dr. Gregory, that would then be inconsistent of your view of the situation, would it not?

Dr. Shaw. Yes, it would be.

Mr. Specter. And similarly on diagram No. 3, where the exit is marked on the volar, and the entry is marked on the dorsal, that would also be inconsistent with your view of the situation?

Dr. Shaw. Yes—he has the wound on the back being quite a bit larger than the wound on the front here, doesn't he?

Mr. Specter. Yes, the wound as it appears here on the diagram is larger.

Dr. Shaw. That wasn't my memory.

94 Mr. Specter. But I don't think that that is necessarily as to scale in this situation. Would it be possible from your knowledge of the facts here, Dr. Shaw, that President Kennedy might have been struck by the bullet passing through him, hitting nothing but soft tissues, and that bullet could have passed through Governor Connally's chest and a second bullet might have struck Governor Connally's wrist?

Dr. Shaw. Yes; this is a perfectly tenable theory.

Mr. Specter. And, then, the damage to Governor Connally's thigh might have come from either of the bullets which passed through the chest or a second bullet which struck the wrist?

Dr. Shaw. That is true—as far as the wounds are concerned, this theory, I feel, is tenable. It doesn't conform to the description of the sequence of the events as described by Mrs. Connally.

Mr. Specter. In what respect Dr. Shaw?

Dr. Shaw. Well she feels that the Governor was only struck by one bullet.

Mr. Specter. Why does she feel that way; do you know, sir?

Dr. Shaw. As soon as he was struck she pushed him to the bottom of the car and got on top of him and it would mean that there would be a period of—well if there were 5 seconds between the three shots, there would be a couple seconds there that would have given her time to get him down into the car, and as she describes the sequence, it is hard to see how he could have been struck by a second bullet.

Mr. Specter. If she pushed him down immediately after he was shot on the first occasion?

Dr. Shaw. Yes.

Mr. Specter. But if her reaction was not that fast so that he was struck twice, of course then there would be a different situation, depending entirely on how fast she reacted.

Dr. Shaw. I think if he had been struck first in the wrist and not struck in the chest, he would have known that. He only remembers the hard blow to the back of his chest and doesn't remember being struck in the wrist at all.

Mr. Specter. Might he not have been struck in the chest first and struck by a subsequent shot in the wrist?

Dr. Shaw. Yes; but that's hard to postulate if he was down in the bottom of the car.

Mr. Specter. Dr. Shaw, have you been interviewed by any representatives of the Federal Government prior to today?

Dr. Shaw. Yes.

Mr. Specter. And who talked to you about this case?

Dr. Shaw. I don't have his name. I perhaps could find it. It was a member of the Secret Service.

Mr. Specter. On how many occasions were you talked to by a Secret Service man?

Dr. Shaw. Once.

Mr. Specter. And what did you tell him?

Dr. Shaw. I told him approximately the same that has been told in this transcript.

Mr. Specter. And prior to the time we started to go on the record with the court reporter taking this down verbatim, did you and I have a discussion about the purpose of the deposition and the questions that I would ask you?

Dr. Shaw. Yes.

Mr. Specter. And were the answers which you provided me at that time the same as those which you have testified to on the record here this afternoon?

Dr. Shaw. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Do you have any other written record of the operation on Governor Connally other than that which has been identified here in Commission Exhibit No. 392?

Dr. Shaw. No; this is a copy of the operative record that went on to the chart of Governor Connally which is in the possession of the record room of Parkland Hospital.

Mr. Specter. Do you have anything else which you could tell us which you think might be helpful to the Commission in any way, Dr. Shaw?

95 Dr. Shaw. No; I believe that we have covered all of the points that are germane to this incident. Anything else that I would have would actually be hearsay.

Mr. Specter. Thank you very much, sir, for appearing.

Dr. Shaw. All right, you are welcome.

Mr. Specter. Off the record.

(Discussion between Counsel Specter and the witness, Dr. Shaw, off the record.)

Mr. Specter. Dr. Shaw, permit me to ask you one or two more questions. Did you find any bullets in Governor Connally's body?

Dr. Shaw. No.

Mr. Specter. Did you find any fragments of bullets in his chest?

Dr. Shaw. No; only fragments of shattered rib.

Mr. Specter. And did you find, or do you know whether any fragment was found in his wrist or the quantity of fragments in his wrist?

Dr. Shaw. It is my understanding that only foreign material from the suit of Governor Connally was found in the wrist, although in the X-ray of the wrist there appeared to be some minute metallic fragments in the wrist.

Mr. Specter. As to the wound on the back of Governor Connally, was there any indication that the bullet was tumbling prior to the time it struck him?

Dr. Shaw. I would only have to say that I'm not a ballistics expert, but the wound on his chest was not a single puncture wound, it was long enough so that there might have been some tumbling.

Mr. Specter. You mean the wound on his back?

Dr. Shaw. The wound on his back—yes, it was long enough so that there might have been some tumbling. In other words, it was not a spherical puncture wound.

Mr. Specter. So it might have had some tumbling involved, or it might not have?

Dr. Shaw. Yes; I don't know whether the clothes would have occasioned this or not.

Mr. Specter. My question would be that perhaps some tumbling might have been involved as a result of decrease in velocity as the bullet passed through President Kennedy, whether there was any indication from the surface of the wound which would indicate tumbling.

Dr. Shaw. The wound entrance was an elliptical wound. In other words, it had a long diameter and a short diameter. It didn't have the appearance of a wound caused by a high velocity bullet that had not struck anything else; in other words, a puncture wound.

Now, you have to also take into consideration, however, whether the bullet enters at a right angle or at a tangent. If it enters at a tangent there will be some length to the wound of entrance.

Mr. Specter. So, would you say in net that there could have been some tumbling occasioned by having it pass through another body or perhaps the oblique character of entry might have been occasioned by the angle of entry.

Dr. Shaw. Yes; either would have explained a wound of entry.

Mr. Specter. Fine, thank you very much, Doctor.

Dr. Shaw. Thank you.


TESTIMONY OF DR. CHARLES FRANCIS GREGORY

The testimony of Dr. Charles Francis Gregory was taken at 2:30 p.m., on March 23, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. Specter. May the record show that at the start of this session that I have here at the moment Dr. Charles Gregory, who has appeared here in response to a letter of request from the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy.

96 May I say to you, Dr. Gregory, that the purpose of the Commission is to investigate all facets relating to the assassination, including the wounding of President Kennedy, and the wounding of Governor Connally, and we have asked you to appear here for the purpose of testifying concerning your treatment of Governor Connally. Our rules specify that we make a brief statement of the purpose of the Commission, and the purpose of our calling on you.

Now, will you stand up and raise your right hand?

Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give before the President's Commission in this deposition proceeding will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Dr. Gregory. I do.

Mr. Specter. Will you state your full name for the record, please?

Dr. Gregory. Dr. Charles Francis Gregory.

Mr. Specter. And what is your profession, sir?

Dr. Gregory. I am a physician and surgeon.

Mr. Specter. Will you outline your educational background, please?

Dr. Gregory. Yes; I received a bachelor of science degree from Indiana University in 1941, and a doctor of medicine in 1944. I have completed 5 years of post-graduate training in orthopedic surgery at the Indiana University Medical Center in 1951. I remained there excepting for an interlude with the U.S. Navy in 1953 and 1954, until 1956. In 1956 I assumed my present position, which is that of professor of orthopedic surgery and chairman of the division of orthopedic surgery at the Southwestern Medical School, University of Texas.

Mr. Specter. Dr. Gregory, are you certified by the American Board?

Dr. Gregory. I am certified by the American Board of Orthopedic Surgery; yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. And what year were you so certified?

Dr. Gregory. In 1953. I am now a member of the American Board of Orthopedic Surgery, as a matter of fact.

Mr. Specter. Dr. Gregory, what experience, if any, have you had in the treatment of gunshot wounds?

Dr. Gregory. My experience with the treatment of gunshot wounds began with my training in orthopedic surgery, but its greatest impetus occurred in 1953 and 1954 in the Korean theatre of operations with the U.S. Navy. Since that time here at the Parkland Hospital in Dallas our service has attended a considerable number of such injuries, plus my experience is continuing.

Mr. Specter. Could you approximate the total number of gunshot wounds you have had experience with?

Dr. Gregory. I have had personal experience with, I suppose, in approximately 500 such missile wounds.

Mr. Specter. Dr. Gregory, back on November 22, 1963, did you have occasion to treat Governor Connally?

Dr. Gregory. I did.

Mr. Specter. Will you relate briefly the circumstances surrounding your call to treat the Governor?

Dr. Gregory. I had been seeing patients in the health service at the medical school building on the morning of November 22 and was there when word was received that the President had been shot. I did not then know that the Governor had also been injured. I came to the emergency room of Parkland Hospital and upon gaining entrance to it, inquired as to whether or not Mr. Kennedy's wounds were of a nature that would require my assistance.

I was advised that they were not. I then took a number of persons from the emergency room area with me away from it in order to reduce the confusion, and I went to the orthopedic ward on the fifth floor west of Parkland Hospital. After attending some of the patients on that ward, I was preparing to leave the hospital and went by the operating room area to see whether or not I could be of any other assistance, and was apprised then that a page was out for me. At that time Dr. Shaw advised me that Governor Connally had been wounded and that among his wounds were those to the right forearm and the left thigh. He had asked that I stay and attend those wounds after he had completed care of the Governor's chest wound.

97 Mr. Specter. At approximately what time did you have that conversation with Dr. Shaw?

Dr. Gregory. To the best of my knowledge, that conversation must have been about between 1 and 1:15 in the afternoon of November 22.

Mr. Specter. And that conversation was with Dr. Shaw?

Dr. Gregory. Dr. Robert Shaw.

Mr. Specter. Now, what part did Dr. Robert Shaw have in the treatment of Governor Connally in a general way?

Dr. Gregory. Well, Dr. Robert Shaw attended the most serious wound that the Governor sustained, which was one to his right chest, and it was his operation which took precedence over all others.

Mr. Specter. And, was that operation completed before your operation commenced?

Dr. Gregory. Yes; Dr. Shaw's operation had been completed before we even arranged the Governor's right arm and left thigh for definitive care.

Mr. Specter. At approximately what time did your operation of Governor Connally begin?

Dr. Gregory. My operation on Governor Connally began about 4 o'clock p.m. on Friday, November 22.

Mr. Specter. And approximately how long did it last?

Dr. Gregory. The better part of an hour—I should judge—45 to 50 minutes.

Mr. Specter. Who, if anyone, assisted you in that operation?

Dr. Gregory. I was assisted by the junior orthopedic resident, Dr. William Osborne, and the orthopedic intern, Dr. John Parker.

Mr. Specter. What was Governor Connally's condition when you first saw him with respect to his chest wounds, first, if you will, please tell us?

Dr. Gregory. I did not see Governor Connally myself until he had been taken into the operating room and had had an endotracheal tube placed in his larynx and had been anesthetized. Having accomplished this, the very precarious mechanics of respiration had been corrected and his general status at that time was quite satisfactory.

Mr. Specter. What observations did you have with respect to his wound in the chest?

Dr. Gregory. I had none, really, for the business of prepping and draping was underway at that time, and I did not intrude other than to observe very casually, and I don't remember any details of it.

Now, I did see in the course of the operation the wound in his chest, the wound of entry, and its posterior surface and the wound of exit on the anterior surface.

Mr. Specter. What did the wound of entry look like, Doctor?

Dr. Gregory. It appeared to me that the wound of entry was sort of a linear wound, perhaps three-quarters of an inch in length with a rounded central portion. Whereas, the wound of exit was rather larger than this, perhaps an inch and a half across.

Mr. Specter. And at approximately what part of the body was the wound that you described as the wound of entry?

Dr. Gregory. In view of the drapes that were on the Governor at the time, I will have to speculate, but as I recall best, it was in an area probably 2 inches below and medial to the right nipple.

Mr. Specter. Is that the wound of entry or exit?

Dr. Gregory. That's the wound of exit.

Mr. Specter. How about the wound of entry?

Dr. Gregory. The wound of entry was too obscure for me to identify, since it was just in general over the posterior aspect of his chest.

Mr. Specter. What did you observe with respect to the wound of his wrist?

Dr. Gregory. I didn't see the wound of his wrist until after the chest operation had been completed, because his arm was covered by the operation drapes, the surgical drapes for the chest procedure.

Mr. Specter. And when you did have an opportunity to observe the wound of the wrist, what did you then see?

Dr. Gregory. I observed the wound on the dorsal aspect of his wrist, which was about 2 cm. in length, ragged, somewhat irregular, and lay about an inch98 and a half or 2 inches above the wrist joint. It was a little to the radial side of the wrist area.

There was a second wound in the wrist on the volar surface, about a centimeter and a half proximal to the distal flexion crease and this wound was a transverse laceration no more than a centimeter in length and did not gape.

Mr. Specter. When you say on the dorsal aspect, what is that?

Dr. Gregory. In lay terms, that's equivalent to the back of the hand.

Mr. Specter. And the volar is equivalent to what?

Dr. Gregory. The palm surface of the hand.

Mr. Specter. What conclusion, if any, did you reach as to which was the wound of entry and exit on the wrist?

Dr. Gregory. Based on certain findings in the wound at the time the debridement was carried out——

Mr. Specter. Will you define debridement before you proceed with that?

Dr. Gregory. Yes; debridement is a surgical term used to designate that procedure in attending a wound which removes by sharp excision all nonvital tissue in the area together with any identifiable foreign objects.

In attending this wound, it was evident early that clot had been carried into the wound from the dorsal surface to the bone and into the fracture. This would imply that an irregular missile had passed through the wrist from the dorsal to the volar aspect.

Mr. Specter. Now, were there any characteristics in the volar aspect which would indicate that it was a wound of exit?

Dr. Gregory. No; there were none, really. It was my assumption that the missile had expended much of its remaining energy in passing through the radius bone, which it did before it could emerge through the soft tissues.

Mr. Specter. Did you observe any foreign objects identifiable as bits of fragments or portions of a bullet missile?

Dr. Gregory. A preliminary X-ray had indicated that there were metallic fragments or at least metallic fragments which cast metallic shadows in the soft tissues around the wounded forearm. Two or three of these were identified and were recovered and were observed to be metallic in consistency. These were turned over to appropriate authorities for further disposition.

Mr. Specter. Approximately how large were those fragments, Dr. Gregory?

Dr. Gregory. I would judge that they were first—flat, rather thin, and that their greatest dimension would probably not exceed one-eighth of an inch. They were very small.

Mr. Specter. Would you have sufficient experience with gunshot wounds to comment as to whether a 6.5-mm. bullet could have passed through the Governor's wrist in the way you have described, leaving the fragments which you have described and still have virtually all the bullet missile intact, or having 158 grains of a bullet at that time?

Dr. Gregory. Well, I am not an expert on ballistics, but one cannot escape certain ballistic implications in this business.

I would say, first of all, that how much of the missile remains intact as a mass depends to some extent on how hard the metal is. Obviously, if it is very soft, as lead, it may lose more fragments and therefore more weight and volume than it might if it is made of a harder material or is jacketed in some way.

Now, the energy in the missile is a product, not so much of its mass as it is of its velocity, for by doubling the velocity, you can increase the kinetic energy in the force it transmits, fourfold, since the formula for determining energy in these cases is a matter of mass times velocity squared, rather than just linear functional velocity. So, some knowledge of how much of the cartridge force might have been behind the missile would be useful here too.

Mr. Specter. For the purpose of this consideration, I am interested to know the the metal which you found in the wrist was of sufficient size so that the bullet which passed through the wrist could not have emerged virtually completely intact or with 158 grains intact, or whether the portions of the metallic fragments were so small that that would be consistent with having virtually the entire 6.5-mm. bullet emerge.

Dr. Gregory. Well, considering the small volume of metal as seen by X-ray, and the very small dimensions of the metal which was recovered, I think several99 such fragments could have been flaked off of a total missile mass without reducing its volume greatly.

Now, just how much, depends of course upon what the original missile weighed. In other words, on the basis of the metal left behind in Governor Connally's body, as far as I could tell, the missile that struck it could be virtually intact, insofar as mass was concerned, but probably was distorted.

Mr. Specter. Would you have any idea at all as to what the fragments which you observed in the Governor's wrist might weigh, Doctor?

Dr. Gregory. No, not really, but it would have been very small—very small.

Mr. Specter. What treatment or action did you take with respect to treating the Governor's wrist for him, Dr. Gregory?

Dr. Gregory. Upon completing the debridement, we were then faced with a decision as to whether we should suture his wound in the conventional manner or not, and we chose not to, leaving the wound open in deference to potential infection that might be produced by retained fragments of clothing. Having decided upon that course of action, the fractured radius bone was then manipulated into a reduced position and the entire limb was encased in a plaster-paris cast.

Mr. Specter. Did that complete your operative procedure?

Dr. Gregory. That completed my operative procedure for that day for Governor Connally—yes.

Mr. Specter. What other wounds, if any, did you notice on the Governor at that time?

Dr. Gregory. In addition to the chest wound and the wound just described in his right forearm there was a wound in the medical aspect of his left thigh. This was almost round and did not seem to have disturbed the tissues badly, but did definitely penetrate and pass through the skin and to the fascia beneath. I could not tell from the superficial inspection whether it had passed through the fascia. An X-ray was made of his thigh at that time and there was not present in his thigh any missile of sufficient magnitude, in my opinion, to have produced the wound observed on his medial aspect. Repeat X-rays failed to reveal any such missile and an additional examination failed to reveal any wound of exit.

Mr. Specter. What did the X-rays reveal with respect to the presence of a missile?

Dr. Gregory. In the thigh there was a very small shadow, perhaps 1 mm. by 2 mm. in dimension, lying close to the medial aspect of the femur, that is, the thigh bone, but was in my opinion much too small to have accounted for the dimensions of the wound on the medial aspect of his thigh or a wound of that character.

Mr. Specter. What were the dimensions of the wound on the medial aspect of his thigh.

Dr. Gregory. I would say that that wound was about a centimeter in diameter, much larger than the identifiable fragment of metal in the thigh. I might add that this prompted some speculation on our part, my part, which was voiced to someone that some search ought to be made in the Governor's clothing or perhaps in the auto or some place, wherever he may have been, for the missile which had produced this much damage but which was not resident in him.

Mr. Specter. Approximately what type of a missile would it have taken to produce a wound which you have described on his thigh?

Dr. Gregory. Well, it would take a fragment of metal of approximately the same diameter—a centimeter, and in general—round.

Mr. Specter. Would that correspond with the measurement of a 6.5-mm. missile?

Dr. Gregory. I will have to guess—I don't know what dimension—of a 6.5-mm.—yes, a 6.5-mm. would be .65 cm., approximately, yes, that could have very well have occurred from such a missile, yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. Dr. Gregory. I now show you two typewritten pages which are a portion of a document identified as Commission Exhibit No. 392, which in its total aspect constitutes all of the medical records from Parkland Hospital on President Kennedy and Governor Connally and the two pages to which I direct your attention relate an operation on Governor Connally, where you are100 listed as the surgeon, and I ask you if you will take a minute and look those over and tell us whether or not that is your report on the operation which you have just been describing.

Dr. Gregory. (Examining instrument referred to.) Yes, this appears to be the essence of the report which I dictated at the conclusion of my operation on Governor Connally.

Mr. Specter. And are the facts contained in this report the same as those to which you have testified here today?

Dr. Gregory. I think they are—I hope so.

Mr. Specter. Now, will you describe in a general way what treatment you have given Governor Connally following the time when you completed this report on November 22, 1963?

Dr. Gregory. The Governor remained in Parkland Hospital for some 2 weeks after his admission. On the 5th day after the operation, in the Governor's hospital room, the wound on the dorsal surface of his wrist was closed by wire sutures and this was carried out in the room. On the 10th day, I believe it was, the 10th day from injury, the Governor was taken back to the operating room and there under a light general anesthesia, his wounds were dressed and inspected, and a new plaster of paris cast was applied at that time.

The Governor was then permitted up and about with his arm in a sling, and shortly thereafter returned to the Governor's Mansion in Austin. I visited Governor Connally in the Governor's Mansion in Austin about 1 week after his discharge from the hospital, simply for check-up examination and I found things to be in a satisfactory state.

I saw the Governor again about 1 month after his discharge, in the office of Dr. Robert A. Dennison in Austin, Tex., and another examination this time, including an X-ray, was made, and again the condition of his right forearm and of the fractured bone were considered to be satisfactory.

Now, I've got to think of the next date—off of the record or on as you wish—

Mr. Specter. All right, we will go off of the record, Doctor, while you are thinking that through.

Dr. Gregory. All right.

(Discussion between Counsel Specter and the Witness Gregory off the record.)

Mr. Specter. All right, Dr. Gregory.

Dr. Gregory. I'll say on or about February 14, the Governor came to Dallas and on that occasion we removed his cast, obtained an X-ray, found his fracture to be healing satisfactorily, and so we applied a new cast. The Governor wore that cast until 1 week ago, when he again came to Dallas. The cast was removed, and X-ray revealed satisfactory healing of his fracture, and the cast, as a continuous form of treatment, was discontinued.

At the present time the Governor is on a regiment of exercises, and he wears a demountable splint, whenever it looks as though the electorate may be over enthusiastic by shaking his hand.

Mr. Specter. Do you anticipate any future cast for Governor Connally?

Dr. Gregory. I anticipate probably an uneventful, though slow, recovery of normal function in his right arm and wrist and hand.

I think he will have some permanent impairment, but I think he will have a very minimal amount of disability, and I do not at this time anticipate any need for any further surgical intervention. That will have to become manifest by the appearance of some other as yet unanticipated symptom.

I would like to add that on each of the examination interviews here in Dallas, the Governor was also checked over by Dr. Robert Shaw, from the point of view of recovery from his chest wound.

Mr. Specter. Dr. Gregory, I now show you a series of diagrams which are a part of reports bearing Commission No. 326 and may the record show these differ from Commission Exhibit numbers, reflecting the number assigned to reports.

I am going to ask the Court Reporter to mark this particular copy as Dr. Gregory's Exhibit No. 1.

(Instrument marked by the Reporter as Dr. Gregory's Exhibit No. 1, for identification.)

101 Mr. Specter. I am going to ask you, pointing first to Diagram No. 1, whether or not this accurately depicts the wounds of Governor Connally?

Dr. Gregory. This one does not.

Mr. Specter. In what respect?

Dr. Gregory. In the respect that the wound of entry is shown to exist on the volar surface of the forearm, whereas, it was on the dorsal surface of the forearm in my view—in my opinion—and the reverse holds for the wound of exit.

Mr. Specter. Will you take my pen and correct those as they should be, Doctor Gregory?

Dr. Gregory. (Complied with request of Counsel Specter.)

Mr. Specter. Now, turning to Exhibit, Diagram No. 2 on this exhibit, and calling your attention specifically to the point of entry and the point of exit on the diagram of a man standing, does that correspond with the angle of declination on Governor Connally's wound?

Dr. Gregory. To the best of my knowledge, this would fairly accurately depict that angle. If I were to have any reservation at all, it would be with reference to the height or the position of the wounds of entry, as being marked a little high, but this is recalling from memory, and it may not be correct.

Mr. Specter. I now call your attention to Diagram No. 3 on this sequence and ask if this accurately depicts the condition of the Governor's wounds?

Dr. Gregory. I think that this one comes more closely into line with their actual location, especially with reference to the wound of entry in the posterior aspect of the chest. It is a little lower here, as I recall it to be. Those of the wrist, I think are accurately depicted, and that of the thigh are believed to be accurately depicted.

Mr. Specter. And on these wrist wounds, do they show the point of entry to be on the dorsal aspect and the point of exit to be on the volar aspect?

Dr. Gregory. According to the anatomical position, I believe that they do; yes.

Mr. Specter. Now, looking at Diagram No. 4, does this again correspond with your recollection of the angle of decline on Governor Connally?

Dr. Gregory. Again, if I have a reservation it would be to the wound of entry and the posterior aspect as being shown a little higher than it actually existed.

Mr. Specter. Now, Dr. Gregory, I turn to Diagram No. 5, which depicts a seated man and what does Diagram No. 5 depict to your eye with respect to what action is described on the seated man?

Dr. Gregory. Well, I should say that this composite has alined the several parts of the body demonstrated in such a way that a single missile following a constant trajectory could have accounted for all of the wounds which are shown.

Moreover, this is consistent with the point of entry which is depicted on the side views showing the angle of declination. I submit that the angle of declination in passing through the chest could be very simply altered by having an individual lean forward a few degrees, and similarly could be made much deeper by having him lean backward, without really changing the basic relationship between the parts, nor in any way affecting the likelihood that all parts could have come into this same trajectory.

Mr. Specter. Would you consider it possible, in your professional opinion, for the same bullet to have inflicted all of the wounds which you have described on Governor Connally?

Dr. Gregory. Yes; I believe it very possible, for a number of reasons. One of these—is the apparent loss of energy manifested at each of the various body surfaces, which I transected, the greatest energy being at the point of entry on the posterior aspect of the chest and of the fifth rib, where considerable destruction was done and the least destruction having been done in the medial aspect of the thigh where the bullet apparently expended itself.

Mr. Specter. What destruction was done on the fifth rib, Dr. Gregory?

Dr. Gregory. It is my understanding from conversations with Dr. Shaw, and I believe his medical reports bear this out, that the fifth rib was literally shattered by the missile.

102 We know that high velocity bullets striking bone have a strong tendency to shatter bones and the degree to which the fifth rib was shattered was considerably in excess of the amount of shattering which occurred in the radius—the forearm.

Mr. Specter. And what conclusion, if any, did you draw as to the velocity of the missile, as to the time it struck each of those bony portions?

Dr. Gregory. I think that the missile was continually losing velocity with each set of tissues which it encountered and transected, and the amount of damage done is progressively less from first entrance in the thorax to the last entrance in the thigh.

Mr. Specter. Do you think it possible that Governor Connally was shot by two bullets, with one hitting in the posterior part of his body and the second one striking the back side of his wrist?

Dr. Gregory. The possibility exists, but I would discount it for these reasons—ordinarily, a missile in flight—I'll qualify that—a high velocity missile in flight does not tend to carry organic material into the wound which it creates.

I believe if you will inspect the record which was prepared by Dr. Shaw, there is no indication that any clothing or other organic material was found in the chest wound.

An irregular missile can carry debris into a wound and such debris was carried into the wound of the wrist.

I would have expected that an undistorted high velocity missile striking the wrist would not have carried material into it.

Mr. Specter. Was there any other characteristic which led and leads you to conclude that the wrist was not the initial point of impact of a single high velocity bullet?

Dr. Gregory. Yes. Based on our experience with high velocity missile wounds of the forearm produced by rifles of the deer hunting calibre, there is tremendous soft tissue destruction as well as bone fragmentation which not infrequently culminates in amputation of the part.

I do not believe that the missile wound in Governor Connally's right forearm was produced by a missile of such magnitude at the time it struck him. It either had to be one of lower initial energy or a missile which had been partially expended elsewhere before it struck his wrist.

Mr. Specter. Would that opinion apply if you assumed that the missile had initial velocity when leaving the muzzle of the weapon of 200 feet per second?

Dr. Gregory. That's not a very high velocity missile.

Mr. Specter. Pardon me—2,000 feet per second.

Dr. Gregory. I should say that a missile at 2,000 feet per second that strikes the forearm is likely to blow it very nearly off, if it is a missile of any mass as well.

Mr. Specter. Well, assume that you have a muzzle velocity of 2,000 feet per second and assume the mass is 6.5 mm., and assume further that the distance between the muzzle and the wrist is approximately 160 to 250 feet away, what would you expect, based on your experience, that the consequences would be on that wrist?

Dr. Gregory. I will have to say that most of the high velocity rifle wounds that I have seen of the forearm have, in fact, been at a closer range than that which you have stipulated, but I doubt that a range of 155 or 200 feet would seriously reduce the energy, and I would expect a similar wound, under the circumstances which you have described.

Mr. Specter. Let me add another possibility in this sequence, Dr. Gregory, and ask you your opinion with respect to an additional intervening victim in the path of the same bullet to this effect—assume that President Kennedy was riding in an open automobile directly behind Governor Connally, and that at a distance of approximately 175 feet President Kennedy was struck by a bullet from a weapon with a muzzle velocity of 2,000 feet per second, carrying a 6.5 mm. missile and that the missile entered in the upper right of the President's back very near the neckline and passed through his body, striking no bony material, and emerged from the throat of the President. Is it possible that missile could have then entered the back of the Governor and inflicted the chest wound which you have described?

103 Dr. Gregory. I would have to concede that that would be possible—yes.

Mr. Specter. What would your professional opinion be, if you can formulate one, as to whether or not that actually did happen in this situation?

Dr. Gregory. I really couldn't formulate an objective opinion about it. Only, for this reason, that it would then become a question simply of trajectories, and lining the two bodies up in such a way that this sequence of events could have occurred. I would hazard one guess, that is, that had the missile that struck Governor Connally passed through President Kennedy first, that though the missile would not have been distorted necessarily, it would very probably have begun to tumble. Now, if you like, I will define that for you.

Mr. Specter. Would you please?

Dr. Gregory. A tumbling is a second—it actually is a third component of motion that a missile may go through in its trajectory. First, there is a linear motion from muzzle to target on point of impact. In order to keep a missile on its path, there is imparted to it a rotary motion so that it is spinning. Now, both of these are commensurate with the constant trajectory. A third component, which is tumbling, and is literally the end over end motion, which may be imparted to a missile should it strike something in flight that deflects but does not stop it—in this circumstance the wound of entry created by such a missile usually is quite large and the destruction it creates is increased, as a matter of fact, by such tumbling, and I would have therefore expected to see perhaps some organic material carried into a large wound of entry in Governor Connally's back.

These are only theoretical observations, but these are some of the reasons why I would believe that the missile in the Governor behaved as though it had never struck anything except him.

Mr. Specter. Did you observe the nature of the wound in the Governor's back?

Dr. Gregory. Only so far as I saw it as Dr. Shaw was preparing to operate on it, but I was unable to see the nature of the wound as he carried out his operation. I did, however, specifically question him about this matter of containing foreign material, clothing, etc.

Mr. Specter. What did he say about that?

Dr. Gregory. Well, as I recall it, he said none was found, and I would not have expected any to be found as I explained to you, if this was the initial impact of that missile.

Mr. Specter. Well, wouldn't you think it possible, bearing in mind that my last question only went as to whether the same bullet could have gone through President Kennedy and inflicted the wound on Governor Connolly's chest, would you think it possible that the same missile could have gone through President Kennedy in the way I described and have inflicted all three of the wounds, that is, the entry and exit on the chest, the entry and exit on the wrist, and the entry into the thigh which you described.

Dr. Gregory. I suspect it's possible, but I would say it would have to be a remarkably powerful missile to have done so.

Mr. Specter. Dr. Gregory, have you been interviewed about this matter prior to today by any representative of the Federal Government?

Dr. Gregory. Yes; on two or three occasions I have talked to a properly identified member of the Secret Service, Mr. Warren, I believe it was.

Mr. Specter. And what was the nature of the information which you gave to Mr. Warren on those occasions?

Dr. Gregory. Essentially the same thing as I have told you here, but in much less detail.

Mr. Specter. And have you ever talked to anyone besides Mr. Warren and me about these matters, from the Federal Government?

Dr. Gregory. No; not that I know of. I was on a day or so after the assassination spoken to in these offices by a member of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, but it was a very brief interview.

Mr. Specter. What was that about?

Dr. Gregory. And I think it was the question of whether or not I had been able to recover any metal from Governor Connally which they might use for ballistic analysis.

104 I regret to say I don't know the gentleman's name, but he too was properly identified.

Mr. Specter. And prior to the time when the Court Reporter started to transcribe the deposition which you have been kind enough to provide us with, had you and I been talking about the same subjects which you have answered questions on all during the course of this deposition?

Dr. Gregory. Yes.

Mr. Specter. And during the time that you first were interviewed by the Secret Service down through the present moment, have you had the same general opinion concerning the matters which you have testified about here today?

Dr. Gregory. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Do you have anything to add which you think would be helpful in any way to the work of the Commission?

Dr. Gregory. No; not really. This is the only articulation I have had with this whole episode concerning Governor Connally's wound and his subsequent recovery and none other.

Mr. Specter. Thank you very much, Dr. Gregory, for coming.

Dr. Gregory. Very well.


TESTIMONY OF DR. GEORGE T. SHIRES

The testimony of Dr. George T. Shires was taken at 4:35 p.m., on March 23, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. Specter. Let the record show that as we are reconvening this session and about to commence the deposition of Dr. George T. Shires, that the preliminary statement is being made that this is pursuant to the investigation being conducted by the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy to determine all the facts relating to the shooting, including the treatment rendered to Governor Connally as well as President Kennedy, and that Dr. Shires has appeared here today in response to a letter of request from the President's Commission to testify concerning his knowledge of the treatment which he and other medical personnel at Parkland Hospital performed on Governor Connally.

Will you rise, please, Dr. Shires and raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you will give before the President's Commission in this deposition proceeding will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Dr. Shires. I do.

Mr. Specter. Would you state your full name, please, for the record?

Dr. Shires. George Thomas Shires.

Mr. Specter. And what is your profession, sir?

Dr. Shires. Professor of Surgery and Chairman of the Department of Surgery, University of Texas, Southwestern Medical School.

Mr. Specter. And you are a medical doctor by profession, I assume?

Dr. Shires. Yes; M.D.

Mr. Specter. Would you outline briefly your educational background?

Dr. Shires. Undergraduate education at the University of Texas in Austin, Tex.; graduate medical education at the University of Texas, Southwestern Medical School in Dallas; internship, Massachusetts Memorial Hospital in Boston, Mass.; surgical residency—Parkland Memorial Hospital in Dallas, Tex.; two tours of active duty in the United States Navy, first as research investigator at the Naval Medical Research Institute, National Naval Medical Center, Bethesda, Md.; second as Associate Surgeon, United States Naval Hospital Ship Haven—do you want staff positions?

Mr. Specter. Please, give me those, as well.

105 Dr. Shires. Subsequently, Clinical Instructor in Surgery, University of Texas, Southwestern Medical School, progressing through Assistant Professor of Surgery, Associate Professor of Surgery, Professor of Surgery, and Chairman of the Department of Surgery.

Mr. Specter. What was your year of graduation from college, Dr. Shires?

Dr. Shires. This was premedical, and at that time the war was on, so it was a premedical 3 years—it was 1944.

Mr. Specter. And what year did you receive your medical degree?

Dr. Shires. 1948.

Mr. Specter. Are you Board certified at the present time?

Dr. Shires. Yes.

Mr. Specter. And, in what year were you so certified?

Dr. Shires. I was certified by the American Board of Surgery in 1956.

Mr. Specter. Did you have occasion to render any medical treatment for President Kennedy back on November 22, 1963?

Dr. Shires. No; I was not in town at the time the shooting occurred. I was in Galveston, Tex., at the meeting of the Western Surgical Association.

Mr. Specter. Did you have occasion to render medical attention and services to Governor Connally, Dr. Shires?

Dr. Shires. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Will you state briefly the circumstances under which you were called into this case?

Dr. Shires. After the President and the Governor were brought to Parkland Hospital, it was determined—well—all aid was given to the President that was available, and it was determined that Governor Connally's injuries were multiple, the primary injury to Governor Connally was to the chest.

Dr. Shaw, who is the professor of surgery—I don't need to tell their titles—you will have all that?

Mr. Specter. Yes—correct.

Dr. Shires. Dr. Shaw ascertained the condition of Governor Connally, instituted therapy, and had the hospital notify me in Galveston of the status of the President and also the Governor.

Mr. Specter. Were you able to return then to Dallas in time to assist in the operative procedures on Governor Connally?

Dr. Shires. Yes.

Mr. Specter. And at approximately what time did you return to Dallas?

Dr. Shires. Approximately 3 p.m.

Mr. Specter. And what participation did you have in the operative procedures on Governor Connally?

Dr. Shires. At the time I returned, the chest procedure was in progress. The orthopedic procedure on the arm and the leg debridement were ready to be started. I scrubbed and performed the leg procedure.

Mr. Specter. What did you observe, if anything, as to the condition of Governor Connally's chest wound?

Dr. Shires. At the time I arrived, the chest wound had been debrided and was being closed. His general condition at that point was very good. He was receiving blood and the arm and leg wounds were being prepared for surgery.

Mr. Specter. Did you have any opportunity to observe the wound on his back?

Dr. Shires. Not at that time.

Mr. Specter. Did you have any opportunity to observe a wound on his chest?

Dr. Shires. Once again, not at that time—later, but not at that time.

Mr. Specter. Well, what did you observe at a later time concerning the wound on his back and on his chest?

Dr. Shires. Well, in part of his postoperative care, which was a large part of the treatment, we were concerned, of course, with all the wounds, and he had several chest wounds. These, at the time I saw them, had been debrided and were the site of draining, so that their initial appearance was completely altered by having had surgical debridement, so they were clean postsurgical wounds with drainage, at the time I first saw them.

106 Mr. Specter. Would their alteration and condition preclude you from giving an opinion as to whether they were points of entry or points of exit?

Dr. Shires. They would—really.

Mr. Specter. What did you observe at the time you arrived at the hospital as to the condition of his wrist, if anything?

Dr. Shires. At that point his wrist was being prepared for surgery, and although I did not examine this in detail, since I was concerned with the thigh wound, there appeared to be a through and through wound of the wrist which looked like a missile wound.

Mr. Specter. Were you able to formulate any opinion as to the point of entry or the point of exit?

Dr. Shires. No; since I didn't examine it in detail; no, not really.

Mr. Specter. And what did you observe as to the wound on the thigh?

Dr. Shires. The wound on the thigh was a peculiar one. There was a 1 cm. puncate missile wound over the junction of the middle and lower third of the leg and the medial aspect of the thigh. The peculiarity came in that the X-rays of the left leg showed only a very small 1 mm. bullet fragment imbedded in the femur of the left leg. Upon exploration of this wound, the other peculiarity was that there was very little soft tissue damage, less than one would expect from an entrance wound of a centimeter in diameter, which was seen on the skin. So, it appeared, therefore, that the skin wound was either a tangential wound or that a larger fragment had penetrated or stopped in the skin and had subsequently fallen out of the entrance wound.

Mr. Specter. What size fragment was there in the Governor's leg at that time?

Dr. Shires. We recovered none. The small one that was seen was on X-ray and it was still in the femur and being that small, with no tissue damage after the debridement, it was thought inadvisable to remove this small fragment.

Mr. Specter. Is that fragment in the bone itself at the present time?

Dr. Shires. Yes.

Mr. Specter. What would your best estimate be as to the size of that fragment?

Dr. Shires. One millimeter in diameter—one to two.

Mr. Specter. Would you have any estimate as to how much that might weigh in grains?

Dr. Shires. In grains—a fraction of a grain, maybe, a tenth of a grain—very small.

Mr. Specter. A tenth of one grain?

Dr. Shires. Yes.

Mr. Specter. What size bullet would it take to create the punctate hole which you described in the thigh?

Dr. Shires. This would depend entirely on the angle and the speed and weight of the bullet. For example, a small missile on a tangent may create a surprisingly large defect. A large bullet with fast or a relatively slow velocity will create the same defect.

Mr. Specter. What operative procedures did you employ?

Dr. Shires. Progressive debridement from skin, fat, fascia, muscle, irrigation, and through and through enclosure with stainless steel alloy wire and removable sutures.

Mr. Specter. Does that complete a general description of what you did to Governor Connally?

Dr. Shires. In the operating room, yes.

Mr. Specter. Approximately what time did that operation start?

Dr. Shires. Approximately 1 o'clock.

Mr. Specter. The operation that you were concerned with?

Dr. Shires. Oh, the operation that I was concerned with must have started at 3:30 or 4 o'clock, I guess it was.

Mr. Specter. And about what time did it end?

Dr. Shires. My portion of it—about 20 minutes later.

Mr. Specter. And who, if anyone, assisted you in that portion of the operation?

Dr. Shires. Doctors Robert McClelland, Charles Baxter, and Ralph Don Patman.

Mr. Specter. Dr. Shires, I am showing you a document identified heretofore107 as Commission Exhibit No. 392, which is the report of Parkland Hospital on the treatment of President Kennedy and Governor Connally, and I show you a Parkland Memorial Hospital operative record, dated November 22, 1963, which lists you as the surgeon, and ask you whether or not this represents the report made by you on the operative procedures on Governor Connally?

Dr. Shires. Yes; it does.

Mr. Specter. And, are those the same as the matters which you have heretofore described during the course of this deposition as to what you did?

Dr. Shires. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Now, what treatment, if any, have you performed on Governor Connally subsequent to November 22?

Dr. Shires. A tremendous amount—postoperative care was of the essence here in that he had multiple injuries, massive blood and fluid replacement, so that to describe the care is really a detail of postoperative—I don't know how much of this you want—in other words, he had clotting defects—I don't know whether you want to take this down—I just want to ask you how much detail you would like?

Mr. Specter. Start off with a general description—perhaps, I will direct your attention to some specific areas to abbreviate it.

First of all, how frequently did you see him after November 22, 1963?

Dr. Shires. For the first several days I saw him approximately every 2 to 4 hours for an hour or so each visit, and many times for 6 and 8 hours at a stretch.

Mr. Specter. And after that time how frequently did you see him?

Dr. Shires. Decreasing frequency over the next 3 weeks—never less than three or four times a day, even after he was convalescing.

Mr. Specter. How long was he in the hospital?

Dr. Shires. I don't really know the number of days he was in the hospital.

Mr. Specter. After he left the hospital, have you seen him?

Dr. Shires. Yes; I saw him again approximately 2 weeks, I guess it was, after he left the hospital, in Austin. He developed a superficial saphenous thrombophlebitis in the right leg, not the one that the injury occurred in. This was undoubtedly incident to a catheter cutdown having been placed in this leg for administration of blood and fluids while he was in the hospital. He unequivocably had a clot in the saphenous vein and at this time was placed on bed rest, antibiotics, anticoagulants and responded very satisfactorily.

Mr. Specter. Do you anticipate seeing him in the future?

Dr. Shires. Do I?

Mr. Specter. Yes.

Dr. Shires. Not for his wounds. No—the only followup care that he really requires at the moment is the bone—the orthopedic followup, which incidentally is also completely healed.

Mr. Specter. Doctor, look, if you will, at a document which we have marked Dr. Gregory X-1, used in the course of the deposition of Dr. Gregory, which immediately preceded yours and directing your attention first to Diagram Number 1, would the entry and exit holes on Governor Connally's back and chest, being entry and exit, respectively, and the exit and entry on the wrist with the entry being on the back side of the wrist and the exit on the front side of the wrist, correspond with your observations of Governor Connally?

Dr. Shires. Yes; they would.

Mr. Specter. Now, going to Diagram 2, which depicts a man standing, would that correspond to the angle of the entry and exit wounds?

Dr. Shires. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Now, going to Diagram No. 3, would that diagram correspond with the wounds on Governor Connally as you recollect them to be?

Dr. Shires. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Going now to Diagram 4, would that again correspond with the wounds on Governor Connally?

Dr. Shires. Yes.

Mr. Specter. And as to Diagram No. 5, what does that represent?

Dr. Shires. This, at the time of the discussion of Governor Connally's injuries with his wife, before he really regained consciousness from surgery, was the108 apparent position that he was in in the car, which would explain one missile producing all three wounds.

Mr. Specter. Did you have a discussion with Mrs. Connally?

Dr. Shires. Yes; with Mrs. Connally.

Mr. Specter. And when was that discussion?

Dr. Shires. Right after the surgery—this was the 22d, late in the afternoon.

Mr. Specter. And what, if anything, did she tell you as to the Governor's position?

Dr. Shires. She had thought, and I think correctly so, that he had turned to his right after he heard the first shot, apparently, to see what had happened to the President, and he then later confirmed this, that he heard the first shot, turned to his right, and then was hit.

I forgot about that a moment ago, incidentally. He definitely remembers turning after hearing the first shot, before he was struck with a bullet. I forgot about that.

Mr. Specter. When did Governor Connally tell you that?

Dr. Shires. Oh, several days later.

Mr. Specter. While he was in the hospital?

Dr. Shires. Oh, yes—4 or 5 days later and we were constructing the events.

Mr. Specter. What was the occasion for your conversation with him?

Dr. Shires. In part of his routine care one morning, as he was reconstructing his memory of events, because his memory was quite hazy, since he had a sucking wound of the chest and came in here relatively in anoxia, he had some cyanosis, as you know.

Mr. Specter. What is cyanosis?

Dr. Shires. Not enough oxygen of the tissues and this means they turn blue.

Mr. Specter. Would that affect his memory?

Dr. Shires. Yes; sure would and did, and he remembers very little after he fell over in the car—he is very hazy, until, oh, probably the second day post-operatively.

Mr. Specter. Would that affect his memory as to what happened before the wound?

Dr. Shires. No.

Mr. Specter. Or, would that affect only his memory while he was suffering from lack of oxygen?

Dr. Shires. Probably just while he was suffering from lack of oxygen. He didn't have that much hypoxia. Hypoxia or anoxia or lack of oxygen could affect his memory. Had this been severe, this could have affected his memory for preceding events, but his hypoxia fortunately did not last that long, and he never showed real evidence of brain damage from the anoxia, so that I think his memory for events up until the time he recalls falling over in the car is probably accurate.

Mr. Specter. Would you relate just as exactly as you can for us what he said to you, and the nature of the conversation, with your replies, and how it went as closely as you can recount it now?

Dr. Shires. He recounted, and as I remember this particular occasion, Mrs. Connally was in the room too, and reconstructing events, she related the story of her last conversation with the President, relating to him, that the reception had been warm and that she was glad he couldn't say that people of Texas and in Dallas didn't like him and admire him, and she was very pleased with the way things had gone the whole visit. Then, the next event that occurred was that she remembers hearing a shot, he remembered hearing a shot—he remembers turning to the right, he remembered being struck by a bullet, and his next thought as he fell over toward his wife was "They're going to kill all of us," and that's the last really clear memory that he expressed to me until he remembers vaguely being in the emergency room, but very little of that, and then he remembers waking up in the recovery room several hours later.

Mr. Specter. Did he say anything to you about who he meant by "they"?

Dr. Shires. He didn't say—he didn't comment on it at all.

Mr. Specter. Did he describe the nature of the sound which he heard?

Dr. Shires. I don't believe he did—no.

109 Mr. Specter. Did anybody describe the nature of the sound?

Dr. Shires. I think Mrs. Connally did. I think she thought it was, if I'm not wrong, she thought it was a loud retort, either a gun or a firecracker. I think she thought it was a bullet and I think he did too—thought it was a gun—I believe he did too.

Mr. Specter. Now, did Governor Connally say anything about hearing President Kennedy say anything?

Dr. Shires. No—no, he didn't.

Mr. Specter. Did Mrs. Connally say anything about whether President Kennedy said anything?

Dr. Shires. No, she didn't. She remembered Mrs. Kennedy saying some things, but she didn't remember anything about the President having uttered a word.

Mr. Specter. What did Mrs. Kennedy say, according to Mrs. Connally?

Dr. Shires. Oh, it's vague, even in my memory, but things to the effect that her husband had been shot and—well, that was really the essence of it. It wasn't phrased that way.

Mr. Specter. Focusing on the time sequence—what did Governor Connally say as to the timing, number one, the time he was hit, and number two, the time he had heard a sound, and number three, the time he turned—those three factors? In what sequence did he relate them?

Dr. Shires. As he recalled it, he heard a shot, he turned to the right and felt himself receiving a shot—in that order—in a matter of a few seconds.

Mr. Specter. Where did he feel himself receive a shot?

Dr. Shires. In the right chest.

Mr. Specter. Did he make any comment about feeling anything in his wrist?

Dr. Shires. No; I don't believe he did.

Mr. Specter. How about feeling anything in his thigh?

Dr. Shires. I don't believe he ever commented on that to me.

Mr. Specter. Did he say anything else to you at that time about his recollections on the day of the assassination?

Dr. Shires. No; other than this striking feeling he had after he was hit, that someone was trying to kill all of them—apparently he remembers that quite clearly, right after he was hit, but that's all.

Mr. Specter. Did you discuss his recollection of the events of the assassination day with Governor Connally on any other occasion?

Dr. Shires. Oh, yes; sporadically, during his convalescence.

Mr. Specter. What else did he say to you at any other time?

Dr. Shires. He was just simply asking questions about things that happened to him in the Emergency Room, in the Operating Room, and he was a little surprised that he didn't recall them better, but this was after he was wounded in here, but that was really the main thing—he was surprised that he didn't remember some of the things—like the cutdowns for blood and that sort of thing that were done to him, and, of course, this is obviously because he was so anoxic at the time.

Mr. Specter. Did he ever describe anything in more detail in his recollection of the things on the day of the assassination?

Dr. Shires. No.

Mr. Specter. Now, going back to the first conversation you had with Mrs. Connally on November 22d, did she say anything more to you other than that which you have already testified about?

Dr. Shires. No—those were mainly the remarks that she made. I don't remember any others, except—well, no—most of the others were—we were discussing the Governor's condition and outlook and chances for recovery and that sort of thing.

Mr. Specter. Now, looking again at Diagram No. 5, what is your professional opinion, if you have one, as to whether Governor Connally's chest injury, wrist injury, and thigh injury were caused by the same bullet?

Dr. Shires. Well we all thought, me included, that this was probably one missile, one bullet.

Mr. Specter. When you say "we all thought," whom do you mean by that?

Dr. Shires. Dr. Shaw, Dr. Gregory—as we were reconstructing the events110 in the operating room in an attempt to plot out trajectory as best we could, this appeared to be our opinion.

Mr. Specter. Did any of your assistants consult with you in those calculations?

Dr. Shires. I guess nearly all of them we have listed.

Mr. Specter. Dr. McClelland, Dr. Baxter and Dr. Patman?

Dr. Shires. Yes.

Mr. Specter. How about Dr. Osborne and Dr. Parker?

Dr. Shires. They were working with Dr. Gregory. If they discussed it, I'm sure they did—it was before I got there.

Mr. Specter. How about Dr. Boland and Dr. Duke who worked with Dr. Shaw?

Dr. Shires. Now, again, I talked to them and they were discussing it as they did the chest procedure, and again thought the same thing. Everyone was under the impression this was one missile—through and through the chest, through and through the arm and the thigh.

Mr. Specter. Was there any one of the doctors on either of these three teams who had a different point of view?

Dr. Shires. Not that I remember.

Mr. Specter. Do you think it is possible that Governor Connally could have been struck by two bullets, one entering his back and emerging from his chest and the second going into his wrist?

Dr. Shires. I'm sure it is possible, because missile sites are so variable, depending upon the size of the bullet, the speed at which it travels, whether it was tumbling or not. We have seen all kinds of combinations of entrance and exit wounds and it's just impossible to state with any certainty, looking at a given wound, what the nature of the missile was, so I am sure it is possible.

Mr. Specter. Do you think it is possible that, assuming a missile being a bullet 6.5 mm. with a velocity of over 2,000 feet per second, and the distance between the weapon and the victim being approximately 160 to 250 feet, that the same bullet might have passed through President Kennedy, entering his back near the midline and emerging from his neck, and then entering Governor Connally in the back and emerging from his chest, into his wrist, through his wrist and into the thigh?

Dr. Shires. I assume that it would be possible. The main thing that would make me think that this was not the case in that he remembers so distinctly hearing a shot and having turned prior to the time he was hit, and in the position he must have been, particularly here in Figure 5, I think it's obvious that he did turn rather sharply to the right and this would make me think that it was a second shot, but this is purely conjecture, of course.

Mr. Specter. Well, is there anything, aside from what he told you, that is, anything in the characteristics of the wounds on President Kennedy and the wounds on Governor Connally which would lead you to conclude that it was not the same bullet?

Dr. Shires. No—there is nothing. It could have been—purely from the standpoint of the wounds, it is possible.

Mr. Specter. You referred just a minute ago to his turning position?

Dr. Shires. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Is the postulation of a turning by Governor Connally necessary to explain the point of entry in the back, exit in the chest, entry in the wrist, and exit in the wrist, and entry into the thigh, in order to have that line—to state it differently, is it necessary to postulate turning by the Governor?

Dr. Shires. Depending upon the angle of the trajectory—I suppose not. I don't know what the angle of the trajectory was from where the bullet was fired.

Mr. Specter. Assuming an angle of declination of approximately 45 degrees?

Dr. Shires. This, I don't know without drawing it out, but as long as his right arm is drawn in front of him next to the exit wound on the chest, he is in a sitting position, if the angle of declination was right, then I think he could have received this facing straight forward.

Mr. Specter. Now, on the wrist, would that be palm of the wrist, back of the wrist, or how?

111 Dr. Shires. I don't understand.

Mr. Specter. In what position would the wrist have had to be in, in order to have the same bullet make all three wounds?

Dr. Shires. The main point was that his arm be up here. In other words, in some fashion, however his hand happened to be turned, but he had to have his right arm raised up, next to his chest.

Mr. Specter. His wrist would have to be up with the palm down, would it not?

Dr. Shires. As depicted here.

Mr. Specter. In order for the point of entry to be on the dorsal side?

Dr. Shires. That's right, again, which makes it a little more likely he was turning, since ordinarily you pronate your wrist as you turn, whereas, this would have been a little strange for him to have been sitting like this, but again, depending on what he had in his hand. It's just a question of which side is up.

Mr. Specter. But it would be more natural, you say, for the palm to be down in the turning, which was as contrasted with a relaxed sitting position where it would be more likely his palm would be facing in towards his chest area?

Dr. Shires. Right.

Mr. Specter. Do you have any knowledge as to the damage which was done to the rib?

Dr. Shires. Only from hearsay from Dr. Shaw, that's all.

Mr. Specter. Do you have any knowledge as to what fragments there were in the chest, bullet fragments, if any?

Dr. Shires. No, again except from postoperative X-rays, there is a small fragment remaining, but the initial fragments I think Dr. Shaw saw before I arrived.

Mr. Specter. How about the fragments in the wrist, do you have any knowledge of that?

Dr. Shires. Again, there were small fragments which I saw during the procedure on the wrist, but I was not directly involved in that procedure.

Mr. Specter. What opinion do you have, if any, Dr. Shires, as to whether the wound in the thigh might have been inflicted from a missile that did not pass through any other part of the Governor's body, assuming that it was a 6.5-mm. bullet with a muzzle velocity of 2,000 feet per second, traveling approximately 160 to 250 feet between the end of the weapon and the point of impact on the thigh?

Dr. Shires. Well, again, in that wound—it was strange in that the hole in the skin was too large for the amount of damage inflicted on the underlying tissues, so that had this been the case, this would have had to have been a tangential wound. Had it been a tangential wound, then it's possible that small fragments could have gone into bone as it did and that the damage to the soft tissues was done only by that small fragment, so that the major portion of the bullet simply hit the skin in a tangent and went on in its course elsewhere.

Mr. Specter. Well, is it possible that the bullet could have hit Governor Connally with the thigh being the initial point of impact and do the damage which was done there with the high velocity missile that I have just described for you?

Dr. Shires. Is it possible to get a wound like that?

Dr. Specter. Yes, sir.

Dr. Shires. Yes; as long as it's on a tangent.

Mr. Specter. Is it likely to receive a wound like that from a high velocity weapon of 2,000 feet per second and at about 160 to 250 feet?

Dr. Shires. If it's a tangential wound, tangential wounds can be very strange. A large bullet can cause a small hole if its on a tangent or a small bullet can rip out a fairly large hole on a tangent. It just depends on the time of contact and the angle of contact with the skin. That's why it's awfully hard to predict.

Mr. Specter. So that wound could have either been the first striking of the Governor from the bullet, or it could have been from a missile whose velocity112 was spent after going through President Kennedy and through the Governor's body and wrist and then caused that wound in the thigh?

Dr. Shires. That's right, if it was a tangential bullet.

Mr. Specter. Dr. Shires, have you ever been contacted by any representative of the Federal Government prior to today?

Dr. Shires. Yes.

Mr. Specter. And who was it who contacted you?

Dr. Shires. I don't recall the name—it was two individuals from the Secret Service. They presented their credentials at the time to the administration and then subsequently to me and they were given copies of our operative reports, statements made by people concerned with the President and Governor at the time, and then subsequently one of those same two men from Secret Service returned and charted the entrance and exit wounds which you have described previously, or we have looked at previously in these five diagrams.

Mr. Specter. Have you ever been interviewed by any other representative of the Federal Government before today?

Dr. Shires. No; not in person. I discussed over the phone with the FBI—well, that was with regard to Oswald. I discussed over the phone what happened to the bullet that was taken from Oswald, but not with regard to the President or the Governor—no.

Mr. Specter. On your prior interviews by the Secret Service, sir, did they cover the same subjects which you and I have gone over today, or were other subjects covered?

Dr. Shires. No; essentially the same subjects.

Mr. Specter. And was any different information given to you by the Secret Service at that time of either of those two occasions?

Dr. Shires. No; the same as we have discussed here.

Mr. Specter. Now, prior to the time when you were sworn in and the court reporter started to take the deposition in shorthand form, did you and I have a brief discussion about the purpose of the deposition and the subject matters of interest to the Commission?

Dr. Shires. Yes.

Mr. Specter. And was the same information given by you to me during the course of that informal discussion as you have testified to on the record here this afternoon?

Dr. Shires. Yes; in less detail.

Mr. Specter. And do you have anything which you would care to add which you think might be helpful to the Commission in its work?

Dr. Shires. No.

Mr. Specter. Well, fine, that concludes the deposition, thank you very much, Dr. Shires.

Dr. Shires. Are you interested in Oswald—that's my only other question?

Mr. Specter. Well, let's talk about it a little off the record.

(Discussion between Counsel Specter and witness Dr. Shires off the record at this point.)

Mr. Specter. Let's go back on the record. Dr. Shires, before concluding the deposition, permit me to ask you just a few additional questions about care for Lee Harvey Oswald.

First of all, I again show you Commission exhibit No. 392, the last two pages which purport to be an operative record of Parkland Memorial Hospital on November 24, 1963, concerning treatment of Mr. Oswald, with you listed as the surgeon, and I'll ask you to take a look at these two sheets and tell us whether or not that is a report which you prepared on treatment of Mr. Oswald?

Dr. Shires. Yes, it is.

Mr. Specter. Will you outline in a very general way what his condition was when you first saw him?

Dr. Shires. When he was first seen in the emergency room, he was unconscious, without blood pressure or pulse, but with an audible heart beat, and attempts, feeble though they were, attempts in respiration. There was an entrance wound over the left lower chest and the bullet could be felt subcutaneously over the lower chest lateral projecting this trajectory through the body and looking113 at his general condition, it was fairly obvious that the bullet had transgressed virtually every major organ and vessel in the abdominal cavity, which later proved to be the case.

Mr. Specter. What did you do for him?

Dr. Shires. He was given resuscitation, including an endotracheal tube, intravenous fluids, blood, moved to the operating room, prepared, draped, an abdominal incision, laparotomy made, just as is described in the record. The injuries were in fact mortal and involved both major vessels in the abdomen, the aorta, the inferior vena cava, and there had been massive exanguinating hemorrhage into the abdomen—in and around the abdomen.

After securing control of all the many, many bleeding points and the bleeding organs, he never had regained consciousness. Approximately 15, 16—whatever it is, approximately, pints of blood had been given, and he had suffered irreparable anoxia from the initial massive blood loss incident to the gunshot wound. When his heart did stop, even though we felt this was a terminal cessation of heartbeat, efforts were made at resuscitation by open heart massage and all that went with it, but never once was an effective heartbeat obtained, so that our initial impression was that it was correct in that this was simply cardiac death and not cardiac arrest.

Mr. Specter. Did you come close to saving him, in the vernacular—in lay terms?

Dr. Shires. There has never been recorded in medical literature recovery from a wound like this. There was too much blood lost too fast. Had the injury occurred right outside the operating room, it might have been possible to reduce the period of anoxia that comes from overwhelming blood loss like this, sufficiently to have corrected it. We did control all the bleeding points with a lot of difficulty, finally all bleeding points were controlled and this was a mortal wound—there was no question about that.

Mr. Specter. Are the details of your observations, examination, and treatment of Mr. Oswald set forth in the two pages of this report which I have just shown you in Commission No. 392?

Dr. Shires. Yes, the operative reports that are contained there.

Mr. Specter. Thank you very much, Dr. Shires.

Dr. Shires. Thank you.


TESTIMONY OF DR. RICHARD BROOKS DULANY

The testimony of Dr. Richard Brooks Dulany was taken at 6:20 p.m., on March 25, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. Specter. May the record show that Dr. Richard Dulany is present in response to the request that he appear to have his deposition taken and he has been requested to appear here because he has been identified in prior depositions as perhaps being one of the first doctors to see President Kennedy.

Dr. Dulany, have you had an opportunity to examine the Executive Order creating the President's Commission?

Dr. Dulany. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. And the rules and regulations relating to the taking of testimony?

Dr. Dulany. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. Are you willing to have your deposition taken here today, even though you haven't had the 3 days' notice which you have a right to, if you want it?

Dr. Dulany. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. You are willing to waive that requirement?

Dr. Dulany. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Will you stand up now and raise your right hand?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give before the President's114 Commission in this deposition proceeding will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Dr. Dulany. I do.

Mr. Specter. Would you state your full name for the record?

Dr. Dulany. Richard Brooks Dulany.

Mr. Specter. What is your profession?

Dr. Dulany. M.D.—Medical Doctor.

Mr. Specter. Are you licensed to practice medicine in the State of Texas?

Dr. Dulany. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. And would you outline your educational background, please, starting with college—graduation from college?

Dr. Dulany. From college I went to the University Medical School of Oklahoma and then took my internship here at Parkland Hospital and was in the service for 2 years in the Navy, and I just got back from the service in November, and started a residency here in surgery.

Mr. Specter. Did you have occasion to participate in the care of President Kennedy on November 22, 1963?

Dr. Dulany. Is this all recorded now?

Mr. Specter. Yes.

Dr. Dulany. Well, as I stated, I principally cared for the Governor and then after his emergency treatment had been cared for, I went into the room where President Kennedy was being cared for.

Mr. Specter. Were you present from the start of the Governor's treatment?

Dr. Dulany. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. And about what time did you go into the room where the President was being treated?

Dr. Dulany. Well, I believe the Governor was supposed to have been in the surgery suite upstairs within 12 minutes after he came in, and so I'm sure I must have been in the room where the President was, about 7 minutes or so afterwards.

Mr. Specter. What time was that, about, as best you can place it?

Dr. Dulany. I don't really recollect the specific times.

Mr. Specter. What did you observe as to the condition of the President when you entered?

Dr. Dulany. Well, at this time his pupils were fixed and dilated and he had a large head wound—that was the first thing I noticed.

There was already a tracheotomy tube in the neck wound or what was later described as a wound, and had a cutdown running and several other doctors were putting chest tubes in.

Mr. Specter. What doctors were present at that time?

Dr. Dulany. I really can't be accurate on that. I remember Dr. Clark and Dr. Jenkins and Dr. Giesecke, Dr. Carrico, Dr. Martin White, and of course, the doctor that was probably down first of the staff members, Dr. Malcolm Perry, and I remember Dr. McClelland, and Dr. Peters were in there.

Mr. Specter. Are those all the doctors you remember as being down there?

Dr. Dulany. I believe those are all.

Mr. Specter. Can you identify any of the nurses who were there?

Dr. Dulany. No, I don't believe so. I can't remember them.

Mr. Specter. Is there anything that you think that you know would be helpful to the President's Commission in its inquiry into this matter?

Dr. Dulany. I don't believe I could add anything any more than you probably already know.

Mr. Specter. Did you observe any neck wound on the President?

Dr. Dulany. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. Specter. The tracheotomy had already been performed?

Dr. Dulany. It had been placed in.

Mr. Specter. Had the incision already been made when you first saw the President's neck?

Dr. Dulany. I really didn't examine it close enough to make any statement along that line.

115 Mr. Specter. Then, did you observe any wound in the President's neck at all?

Dr. Dulany. No, I just know that the tracheotomy was in and later I was told that this was a wound when it was first seen—you know, that's the best I can tell you.

Mr. Specter. That's fine, Dr. Dulany, thank you very much for appearing here today.

Dr. Dulany. Yes; thank you.


TESTIMONY OF RUTH JEANETTE STANDRIDGE

The testimony of Ruth Jeanette Standridge was taken at 1:35 p.m., on March 21, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. Specter. Miss Standridge, would you stand up and raise your right hand, please?

Do you solemnly swear the testimony you give before the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy in these deposition proceedings will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Miss Standridge. I do.

Mr. Specter. All right, you may be seated.

Miss Standridge, the President's Commission is investigating the assassination of President Kennedy and all the facts relating thereto, and we have asked you to appear to have your deposition taken in connection with the treatment which was given to Governor Connally in Parkland Memorial Hospital and to President Kennedy in Parkland Memorial Hospital, and all facts relating to that.

Have you received a letter from the President's Commission requesting that you appear?

Miss Standridge. Well, there was a letter came and I was out of town and they opened it, the supervisor opened it and she had the letter, but I haven't seen it yet.

Mr. Specter. You haven't seen it yet?

Miss Standridge. No.

Mr. Specter. Well, let me show you the enclosures which were in the letter so that you may be familiar with them. Here is a copy of the White House Executive order establishing the Commission, and here is a resolution establishing the rules for taking testimony. Permit me to explain to you that the rules require that we give you 3 days' notice, so that if you would request it now, we could delay taking your deposition until sometime next week, if you would prefer, or if you are agreeable to have us take your deposition, we can go right ahead and take it now.

Miss Standridge (reading instruments referred to). Thank you, you can just go ahead if you want to—it's all right with me.

Mr. Specter. It doesn't make any difference to you whether it is today or next week?

Miss Standridge. No; it does not.

Mr. Specter. Would you state your full name, please?

Miss Standridge. Ruth Jeanette Standridge.

Mr. Specter. What is your occupation or profession?

Miss Standridge. Head nurse of the emergency rooms.

Mr. Specter. At what hospital?

Miss Standridge. Parkland Memorial Hospital.

Mr. Specter. What were your duties on November 22, 1963?

Miss Standridge. I was working as charge nurse in the major surgery area in Parkland Memorial Hospital.

Mr. Specter. And did you receive notification that the President of the United States was en route to Parkland Hospital?

116 Miss Standridge. Yes; by my supervisor, Doris Nelson.

Mr. Specter. And at about what time did you receive that notification?

Miss Standridge. About 12:30, I guess.

Mr. Specter. And what action, if any, did you take as a result of getting that notice?

Miss Standridge. Immediately went to trauma room 2 and I was in trauma room 2 and began to set up Renger liquid and check the suction machine.

Mr. Specter. And was trauma room 1 set up?

Miss Standridge. Mrs. Nelson was setting trauma room 1 up at the same time.

Mr. Specter. Were you present when one or more of the victims arrived?

Miss Standridge. Yes.

Mr. Specter. And who was it arrived?

Miss Standridge. Governor Connally was brought into trauma room 2 first.

Mr. Specter. Did you observe President Kennedy arrive?

Miss Standridge. No; I was busy with the Governor.

Mr. Specter. And what did you do when the Governor arrived?

Miss Standridge. Well, we began to take his clothing off and the orderlies continued that and the doctors and I started handing the syringe and medicine and things necessary to start the IV.

Mr. Specter. And, what do you mean by "IV"?

Miss Standridge. Intravenous fluids.

Mr. Specter. And did you assist in the taking off of Governor Connally's clothes?

Miss Standridge. Yes.

Mr. Specter. What, if anything, did you notice with respect to the Governor's shirt?

Miss Standridge. There was blood on the front of it.

Mr. Specter. Was there any bullet hole on the front of the shirt?

Miss Standridge. Not that I can say for sure.

Mr. Specter. There could have been or could not have been, but you just don't know?

Miss Standridge. There could have been, but mostly it was just blood that we noticed.

Mr. Specter. Did you notice anything on the coat?

Miss Standridge. There was blood on the coat.

Mr. Specter. Was he wearing his suit coat?

Miss Standridge. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Did you notice whether or not there was any bullet hole in the coat?

Miss Standridge. I didn't see one.

Mr. Specter. What was Governor Connally's position when you first saw him?

Miss Standridge. He was laying on his back on the cart.

Mr. Specter. And what kind of cart was he lying on?

Miss Standridge. The emergency cart on rollers.

Mr. Specter. What is that emergency cart constructed of?

Miss Standridge. Well, it's just a thin fixture with rubber padding on the top, and it is used to transfer the patients to the wards, and to X-ray and to surgery.

Mr. Specter. Is it made of metal?

Miss Standridge. Of metal with four big tires on it.

Mr. Specter. With four roller tires on it?

Miss Standridge. Yes.

Mr. Specter. And what was on the cart underneath the Governor?

Miss Standridge. Well, there was just a sheet was all we had on there.

Mr. Specter. Was there anything on top of the Governor?

Miss Standridge. Well, we put a sheet, when we unclothed him.

Mr. Specter. Was he completely undressed?

Miss Standridge. Yes.

Mr. Specter. And was he lying on top of that cart while he was being undressed?

Miss Standridge. Yes.

117 Mr. Specter. And who assisted you in the process of undressing him?

Miss Standridge. Well, David Sanders was helping, he was my orderly that was in the room, and also an aid, Rosa Majors, and she took the money out of his pants, and Dr. Fueishier.

Mr. Specter. How do you spell that?

Miss Standridge. F-u-e-i-s-h-i-e-r (spelling), and Dr. Duke, and there was a couple of other doctors—I don't remember who they were, but they were up at the head, Dr. Fueishier and Dr. Duke, and Dr. Shaw came in before they got the Governor's clothes off.

Mr. Specter. Did you notice any object in Governor Connally's clothing?

Miss Standridge. Not unusual.

Mr. Specter. Did you notice a bullet, specifically?

Miss Standridge. No.

Mr. Specter. Did you hear the sound of anything fall?

Miss Standridge. I didn't.

Mr. Specter. Were there other noises going on in the room at that time?

Miss Standridge. Yes, there were.

Mr. Specter. Was Governor Connally completely undressed in the emergency room?

Miss Standridge. I believe so, to the best of my knowledge he was, I think everything was taken off.

Mr. Specter. And what was done with Governor Connally following the completion of his being undressed?

Miss Standridge. He was immediately carried to the elevator—emergency elevator.

Mr. Specter. And in what way was he carried to the emergency elevator?

Miss Standridge. On the emergency cart that he came into emergency room on.

Mr. Specter. Is that also describable as a stretcher?

Miss Standridge. Yes.

Mr. Specter. You say "Yes"?

Miss Standridge. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Did you assist in pushing him into the elevator?

Miss Standridge. I started and then there was enough doctors pushing him and I went back to get his clothing and by the time I came back up again—I went just as quickly as I could walk back to trauma room 2 and got the clothing, I ran back up to catch him, and the elevator was closing with him on it.

Mr. Specter. Did you actually see Governor Connally being wheeled into the elevator?

Miss Standridge. No, the door was closing as I got back around. I started with him down the hall and then before I got back, they had put him into the elevator.

Mr. Specter. Who assisted in pushing him out of the emergency room and down the hall—is it a little ways?

Miss Standridge. Well, it's through the OB and GYN section.

Mr. Specter. Is that "Obstetrics and Gynecology" section?

Miss Standridge. Yes; you go through that section to get to this elevator from the major surgery section.

Mr. Specter. How far did you help push him from the major surgery section?

Miss Standridge. About from the door that went into OBGN.

Mr. Specter. About how far is that?

Miss Standridge. Oh, about 20 feet, I guess, and they had about another 20 feet to go before they turned to the left to get to the elevator, which is about 6 or 8 feet.

Mr. Specter. So, you left him and went back to the emergency room to get his clothes, and when you came back, did you see any part of the stretcher?

Miss Standridge. Well, I could just see—I could see the stretcher—yes; and the doors and everybody in the elevator and the door was closed in.

Mr. Specter. Could you see Governor Connally on the stretcher?

Miss Standridge. No, not—I think his feet were at the end—I could just see feet—I believe the feet were there at that door, you know.

Mr. Specter. And, you saw the same doctors around the stretcher who were pushing him when you last saw him?

118 Miss Standridge. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Are you sure that was Governor Connally?

Miss Standridge. No, that's what I said—I just saw his feet, which I assumed it was—it was the same doctors.

Mr. Specter. About how long elapsed from the time you stopped pushing the stretcher until the time you got there to look and see just his feet?

Miss Standridge. Just a second, I mean, just a few seconds.

Mr. Specter. You went back and got his clothes?

Miss Standridge. Yes.

Mr. Specter. What did you do with those clothes?

Miss Standridge. I asked the administrator who should I give them to, and they told me to give them to Governor Connally's party and they were in the minor medicine section and I went out there and there were two gentlemen out there and I asked them who I wanted to see—I wanted to see somebody in Governor Connally's party, and they opened the door and they asked for somebody, and he said he was—he identified himself as Cliff Carter.

Mr. Specter. Did you give him the clothing?

Miss Standridge. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Do you know what he did with it?

Miss Standridge. No.

Mr. Specter. Have you heard what he did with it?

Miss Standridge. I've heard that it got lost and they found it in Representative Gonzales' office in a closet.

Mr. Specter. And is he a Texas Representative?

Miss Standridge. I believe so.

Mr. Specter. In his office closet where?

Miss Standridge. In Washington, D.C.

Mr. Specter. Are you limited in anyway from entering into the operating room area?

Miss Standridge. We are limited, but there is a place where the spots are painted on the floor that is is legal for us to go through into the hallway into the nurses' station.

Mr. Specter. You can go around in part of the operating room area?

Miss Standridge. Isn't into the premises—it's just in the hallway into the nurses' station.

Mr. Specter. And what is the reason for limiting you from going beyond that into the operating room area?

Miss Standridge. Well, we are not considered—we would be contaminating.

Mr. Specter. Well, is there some problem about flammable gases up there?

Miss Standridge. Anesthesia equipment, that's right, and these spots are painted there, and if you don't have the proper shoes on, they will be a conductor, you know, and these spots are there for that area.

Mr. Specter. Was Governor Connally removed from the stretcher at anytime while he was in the emergency room?

Miss Standridge. No; he wasn't. He never went to X-ray or he wasn't taken off at all.

Mr. Specter. Does the elevator that the stretcher was pushed into go only to the operating room?

Miss Standridge. No; it stops on first floor and also goes up to delivery—up to the delivery room on third floor.

Mr. Specter. What is on first floor?

Miss Standridge. No patients—only classrooms and administrative offices—business offices.

Mr. Specter. What is on third floor?

Miss Standridge. The delivery room—it opens up into the delivery room and then the post mortem wards.

Mr. Specter. Do you have anything you would like to add which you think might be helpful to us in any way?

Miss Standridge. Well, not that I can think of other than that I have already stated.

Mr. Specter. Did you see President Kennedy's stretcher at any time?

Miss Standridge. Yes; I was in the room—I took the mop in. The orderlies119 mopped the floor and we cleaned the wall, the blood off of the walls and so forth, to get it presentable before Mrs. Kennedy came back in.

Mr. Specter. And was President Kennedy in the room at that time?

Miss Standridge. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Did you see him there?

Miss Standridge. Yes.

Mr. Specter. And you identified him from what you knew he looked like?

Miss Standridge. Yes.

Mr. Specter. And how was he clothed at that time?

Miss Standridge. Well, as far as from his waist up—was all that was uncovered and they were trying to protect his head with a sheet—it was wrapped around his head.

Mr. Specter. What clothing did he have on from the waist down?

Miss Standridge. It was just a sheet cover—I don't know of anything under the cover, whether there was or not. I assumed he was all unclothed, which we do routinely.

Mr. Specter. He was all unclothed?

Miss Standridge. I said I assumed he was—I don't know.

Mr. Specter. What did he have from the waist up?

Miss Standridge. Nothing.

Mr. Specter. What was he on at that time?

Miss Standridge. A stretcher cart.

Mr. Specter. Did you see what happened to that stretcher afterward?

Miss Standridge. I didn't notice. They moved it from the room.

Mr. Specter. Do you know what happened to the sheets that were on the President's stretcher?

Miss Standridge. No; I don't.

Mr. Specter. Did you and I meet previously before I started to take the deposition here today and talk about the procedures for the investigation by the Warren Commission?

Miss Standridge. Yes.

Mr. Specter. And have you and I been discussing here, with me asking questions and you making answers all the things which we talked about before the court reporter came in?

Miss Standridge. I believe so.

Mr. Specter. Have you ever talked to any other representative of the Federal Government?

Miss Standridge. The Secret Service—yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. And did you talk with them once or more than once?

Miss Standridge. Well, I talked with them one time in Mr. Wright's office and another time just briefly—he came to see the layout of the emergency room.

Mr. Specter. Whose office—Mr. Wright?

Miss Standridge. Personnel manager here.

Mr. Specter. What did the Secret Service men ask you about on those occasions?

Miss Standridge. Well, just the same thing we have gone over today.

Mr. Specter. And you talked with the Secret Service man in another part of the hospital on another day, you say?

Miss Standridge. I think he came back up into the emergency room at that time.

Mr. Specter. What did you talk about in the emergency room at that time?

Miss Standridge. Well, Mrs. Nelson, she showed him the different areas.

Mr. Specter. And you identified some of the things?

Miss Standridge. No, sir.

Mr. Specter. Have you ever talked with any other representative of the Federal Government?

Miss Standridge. No.

Mr. Specter. Any representative of the State government?

Miss Standridge. No.

Mr. Specter. Thank you very much. Those are all—those are the only questions I have.

Miss Standridge. Thank you for that.


120

TESTIMONY OF JANE CAROLYN WESTER

The testimony of Jane Carolyn Wester was taken on March 20, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas. Tex., by Mr. Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. Specter. Miss Wester, this is Miss Oliver the court reporter and she will take down your testimony here and will you raise your right hand and take the oath?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you will give in this proceeding will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Miss Wester. I do.

Mr. Specter. May the record preliminarily show that the purpose of this proceeding is in connection with the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy to ascertain facts relating to the assassination and all medical treatment obtained by President Kennedy and Governor Connally following their being shot.

The witness at the moment is Miss Jane Wester who has been asked to testify concerning any facts of which she has knowledge concerning treatment of President Kennedy or Governor Connally and the disposition of Governor Connally's clothing and sheet in which he was wrapped at the time the Governor was brought into the operating room at Parkland Memorial Hospital.

Mr. Specter. Will you state your full name, for the record, please?

Miss Wester. Jane Carolyn Wester.

Mr. Specter. And what is your residence address, Miss Wester?

Miss Wester. 1107 Brockbank, Dallas.

Mr. Specter. Have you received a letter of notification from the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy advising you that I would contact you for the purpose of taking testimony from you in connection with this proceeding, Miss Wester?

Miss Wester. Yes; I have.

Mr. Specter. And at that time did you receive the copies of the Executive order creating the Commission and the rules and regulations relating to the taking of testimony?

Miss Wester. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. Specter. And are you satisfied to appear here today and answer some questions relating to your participation in the treatment of Governor Connally?

Miss Wester. Yes, sir; I am.

Mr. Specter. And President Kennedy?

Miss Wester. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. What is your occupation or profession, please?

Miss Wester. I am a registered nurse.

Mr. Specter. And at what institution are you employed?

Miss Wester. Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas.

Mr. Specter. And how long have you been so employed at Parkland Memorial Hospital?

Miss Wester. Nine years—or 9 1/2.

Mr. Specter. Will you outline your duties in a general way as they were back on November 22, 1963?

Miss Wester. I am assistant supervisor in the operating room, and I assign personnel duties, direct them in their activities.

Mr. Specter. Did you receive notice on that date that President Kennedy and Governor Connally were en route to Parkland Memorial Hospital to receive treatment?

Miss Wester. I was not aware that they were in the hospital.

Mr. Specter. When was it first brought to your attention, if at all?

Miss Wester. At noon, around noon—noontime—I'm not sure as to the exact time it was. I was relieving the secretary for lunch and the phone rang. Someone in the pathology department asked if the President were in the operating room and I answered them, "No," and they said that a Secret Service agent was121 down there and as soon as the President did arrive in the operating room, would I please call them.

Mr. Specter. What was your next connection, if any, with respect to the treatment of either President Kennedy or Governor Connally at Parkland?

Miss Wester. I received a phone call from the emergency room asking us to set up for a craniotomy.

Mr. Specter. And what is a craniotomy in lay language?

Miss Wester. That's an exploration of the head.

Mr. Specter. Was there any other request made at that time?

Miss Wester. Yes—well—immediately following, following that I received a call to set up for a thoracotomy, which is an exploration of the chest.

Mr. Specter. And were those two set ups made in accordance with the requests you received?

Miss Wester. Yes; I immediately assigned personnel to set up these two rooms for these two cases.

Mr. Specter. And what room was used for the craniotomy?

Miss Wester. The craniotomy was set up in room 7.

Mr. Specter. And what room was used for the thoracotomy?

Miss Wester. The thoracotomy was set up in room 5.

Mr. Specter. And on what floor were the two rooms?

Miss Wester. Well, on the south wing of the second floor.

Mr. Specter. What happened next in connection with this matter?

Miss Wester. I assigned personnel to take care of the doorways to keep traffic out of the operating room and keep people back—keep the halls clear. Shortly thereafter, Governor Connally arrived in the operating room with several doctors—arrived by stretcher.

Mr. Specter. Now, in what way did a stretcher arrive from the first floor, or by what means of locomotion?

Miss Wester. The stretcher arrived by an elevator which is in the operating room—it comes directly from emergency room and which—there were several doctors with him that brought the stretchers up.

Mr. Specter. And what happened to the stretcher after it left the elevator on the second floor of the operating room area?

Miss Wester. The doctors brought this and were proceeding down the hall, and I met them in the center of the operating room suite itself.

Mr. Specter. About how far is that from the elevator door?

Miss Wester. Approximately 50 feet.

Mr. Specter. What was done then with Governor Connally on the stretcher, following the point where you met them?

Miss Wester. We proceeded to room 5 and outside of room 5 we transferred Governor Connally from the stretcher onto an operating table and removed his clothes from the bottom of the stretcher and placed them in the hallway by the operating table.

Mr. Specter. In what way was Governor Connally dressed or robed when you first saw him on the stretcher?

Miss Wester. As far as I know, the only thing he had was a sheet on him. He had no hospital gown or anything else that I know of on.

Mr. Specter. Had his clothes then been removed by that time?

Miss Wester. Yes; he arrived without his clothes. They were on the bottom of the cart in a paper sack.

Mr. Specter. And you said he was transferred from the stretcher onto an operating table?

Miss Wester. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Now, was that inside the operating room? Or outside the operating room?

Miss Wester. No; it's in the hallway right outside room 5—we transferred him onto the operating table, and then moved the table into the operating room.

Mr. Specter. And did he have any clothing on at the time you transferred him from the stretcher onto the operating table?

Miss Wester. I don't recall any clothes that he had on.

Mr. Specter. What was then done with Governor Connally on the operating table?

122 Miss Wester. The operating table was moved into the operating room and at that time they proceeded to start anesthetics on him and put him to sleep.

Mr. Specter. What doctors were in attendance of Governor Connally at that time.

Miss Wester. Dr.—there were many—Dr. Giesecke, G-i-e-s-e-c-k-e (spelling)—there were so many. Dr. Ray, I believe, was there, and there were many others—right offhand, I can't remember.

Mr. Specter. Did you go into the operating room at that time?

Miss Wester. I went as far as the doorway with him.

Mr. Specter. Now, what was done with the stretcher on which he came to that point?

Miss Wester. I took the stretcher and rolled it to the center area of the operating room suite—rolled the sheets up on the stretcher into a small bundle.

Mr. Specter. Was there one sheet or more than one sheet?

Miss Wester. I believe there were two sheets and I rolled one inside the other up into a small bundle.

Mr. Specter. What is the next normal procedure with respect to the number of sheets on such a stretcher in like circumstances?

Miss Wester. The cart—the mattress on the cart is covered with one sheet, the patient is usually covered with another. When they arrive in the operating room the sheet covering the patient is removed and a grey cotton blanket is placed over the patient and the sheets are rolled up and usually returned to the emergency room with the cart.

Mr. Specter. What else, if anything, was on that stretcher?

Miss Wester. There were several glassine packets, small packets of hypodermic needles—well, packed in and sterilized in. There were several others-some alcohol sponges and a roll of 1-inch tape. Those things, I definitely know, were on the cart, and the sheets, of course.

Mr. Specter. Were there any other objects on the cart, on the stretcher cart?

Miss Wester. Right off, I can't remember——

Mr. Specter. Do you recollect whether there were any gloves on the cart?

Miss Wester. There could have been—I don't recall right off—I can't remember that.

Mr. Specter. Do you recall whether there were any tools on one end of the stretcher?

Miss Wester. I know I set something down on the cart, I think it was a curved hemostat—I couldn't say for sure—I'm not sure.

Mr. Specter. Now, you have testified that you met Governor Connally on the stretcher when he was 50 feet from the elevator door. Is there any object at about that spot that is a landmark, so to speak, of that particular spot?

Miss Wester. Where I met Governor Connally in the operating room?

Mr. Specter. Yes.

Miss Wester. There is a clock.

Mr. Specter. About how far from the clock is the door to the operating room, room 5, where Governor Connally was taken?

Miss Wester. I would say approximately 75 feet.

Mr. Specter. Now, what did you do with the stretcher after Governor Connally was taken off of it?

Miss Wester. I moved the stretcher back to the center area, fairly close to the clock, it wasn't right under it, but fairly close, and an orderly, R. J. Jimison, walked up——

Mr. Specter. His initials are R. J.?

Miss Wester. And he stood at the cart while I rolled the sheets up and removed the items from the cart, and from there he took the cart and proceeded to the elevator with it and the last time I saw him he was standing at the elevator with the cart waiting for him to be picked up.

Mr. Specter. Did you see that stretcher any more that day?

Miss Wester. Not that I know of.

Mr. Specter. Will you describe in a general way what that stretcher looked like?

Miss Wester. Well, it has four wheels and a lower shelf, a thin mattress on123 it, and side rails on it, on each side of the cart. It has a rubber rim at the edge of it, sort of a bumper type to the upper shelf of the cart.

Mr. Specter. And what is it constructed of?

Miss Wester. Well, it's a metal—steel.

Mr. Specter. What was done with the mattress?

Miss Wester. It remained on the cart. It was not moved then, only the sheets were left and rolled into a bundle. And, when the sheets were rolled into a bundle, I didn't actually lift them up.

Mr. Specter. Did you see Miss Jeanette Standridge at any time in connection with this particular movement of the stretcher?

Miss Wester. No.

Mr. Specter. Did you see Mrs. Henrietta Ross at any time in connection with this particular movement of the stretcher?

Miss Wester. No; I believe she walked up on my right as I was rolling the sheets up.

Mr. Specter. Did you see Darrell C. Tomlinson at any time in connection with this particular movement of the stretcher?

Miss Wester. No.

Mr. Specter. Were you interviewed by the Secret Service about these events at some time in the past?

Miss Wester. Yes; I was.

Mr. Specter. Were you interviewed by anyone else?

Miss Wester. No.

Mr. Specter. And did the Secret Service interview on one occasion or more than one occasion?

Miss Wester. Only one occasion.

Mr. Specter. And immediately prior to your being sworn in and starting to take this deposition, did I have a very brief conversation with you about the purpose of this proceeding?

Miss Wester. Yes; you did.

Mr. Specter. And about the facts to which you have testified since this formal deposition started?

Miss Wester. Yes.

Mr. Specter. And at that did you tell me all the facts previously testified to here to this effect?

Miss Wester. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Did the sheet on which the Governor was lying have anything on it?

Miss Wester. It had some blood.

Mr. Specter. Have you made any notes or any written record of that sort concerning the matters about which you have testified here today?

Miss Wester. No; I haven't.

Mr. Specter. That concludes the deposition, and I thank you very much for appearing here.

Miss Wester. Fine.


TESTIMONY OF MRS. HENRIETTA M. ROSS

The testimony of Mrs. Henrietta M. Ross was taken at 6:50 p.m., on March 25, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. Specter. May the record show that the oath has been administered to Mrs. Henrietta Ross who is appearing here in response to a letter request to testify as part of the inquiry of the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy, which involves the treatment of President Kennedy and Governor Connally at Parkland Hospital.

Mrs. Ross has been asked to appear and testify concerning her knowledge about the stretcher cart on which Governor Connally was transported while in the hospital.

124 Mr. Specter. With that preliminary statement, I'll ask you, Mrs. Ross, to state your full name?

Mrs. Ross. Mrs. Henrietta Magnolia Ross.

Mr. Specter. And where are you employed?

Mrs. Ross. Parkland Hospital.

Mr. Specter. In what capacity?

Mrs. Ross. Operating room technician.

Mr. Specter. And what were your duties on November 22, 1963?

Mrs. Ross. Stand in the hall and guard the hall and not let anyone pass by I did not know.

Mr. Specter. Did you have occasion to see Governor Connally?

Mrs. Ross. Yes; as he came down the hall on the cart.

Mr. Specter. Did you see him as he left the elevator?

Mrs. Ross. Yes.

Mr. Specter. About what time was that?

Mrs. Ross. About—it should have been after 1 o'clock because I was supposed to go to a class that day and I couldn't go.

Mr. Specter. Who was with him at the time, if anyone?

Mrs. Ross. There were doctors all around in the corridor and I don't know exactly who—I only remember one person and that was Dr. Gustafason, because he gave me his coat to hang up as he was passing.

Mr. Specter. Was Miss Jane Wester there?

Mrs. Ross. She was up there; yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. And what did you see them do with the Governor, if anything?

Mrs. Ross. They pushed him down in front of room 5 and onto the operating table and put him on it.

Mr. Specter. What were they pushing him on?

Mrs. Ross. On a stretcher from the emergency room.

Mr. Specter. Will you describe the stretcher for me, please, starting with what was it made of?

Mrs. Ross. It has four legs, four wheels and has a little rubber sheet on it. I mean, a rubber mattress, and the length of the normal body is the length of the cart.

Mr. Specter. Is it made of metal?

Mrs. Ross. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. And what was done with the stretcher cart after they rolled Governor Connally off of it?

Mrs. Ross. It was pushed back up toward room 3.

Mr. Specter. Is that toward the elevator?

Mrs. Ross. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. And by whom was it pushed?

Mrs. Ross. Jimison.

Mr. Specter. R. J. Jimison?

Mrs. Ross. I don't know Jimison's initials, sir.

Mr. Specter. He's one of the orderlies there?

Mrs. Ross. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. And where did you last see the stretcher?

Mrs. Ross. In front of room 3.

Mr. Specter. Did Jimison have it in his control at that time?

Mrs. Ross. The last time I looked he was pushing it; yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. Have you talked to the Secret Service about this?

Mrs. Ross. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. On how many occasions?

Mrs. Ross. One time.

Mr. Specter. Did you talk to anyone else from the Federal Government about this matter?

Mrs. Ross. No, sir.

Mr. Specter. Do you have anything to add which you think might be helpful to the Commission?

Mrs. Ross. No, sir.

Mr. Specter. Thank you very much for appearing.

Mrs. Ross. Thank you.


125

TESTIMONY OF R. J. JIMISON

The testimony of R. J. Jimison was taken at 2:35 p.m., on March 21, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas. Tex., by Mr. Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. Specter. Would you stand up, please, Mr. Jimison, and raise your right hand.

Do you solemnly swear the testimony you shall give before this Commission in the deposition proceedings will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. Jimison. I do.

Mr. Specter. Mr. Jimison, have you received a letter of notification from the President's Commission advising you that you would be contacted to have your deposition taken?

Mr. Jimison. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. And did that letter contain in it a copy of the Executive order creating the Commission, a copy of the joint congressional resolution about the Commission, and the procedures for taking depositions by the Commission?

Mr. Jimison. I believe it did.

Mr. Specter. Are you willing to have your deposition taken today, sir; do you have any objection to my asking you some questions and having them reported by the court reporter here?

Mr. Jimison. No; I do not.

Mr. Specter. By whom are you employed, Mr. Jimison?

Mr. Jimison. I would just say the hospital—County Hospital.

Mr. Specter. Parkland Memorial Hospital?

Mr. Jimison. Yes; Parkland Memorial Hospital.

Mr. Specter. What kind of work do you do here?

Mr. Jimison. Orderly.

Mr. Specter. Let the record show that you have a badge on which says, "R. J. Jimison".

Mr. Jimison. Right.

Mr. Specter. "Orderly." And is that your full name?

Mr. Jimison. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. And what does the "R" stand for?

Mr. Jimison. That's just an initial name.

Mr. Specter. And how about the "J"?

Mr. Jimison. Same.

Mr. Specter. So, people call you "R. J."?

Mr. Jimison. Right.

Mr. Specter. What were your duties back on November 22, 1963, Mr. Jimison?

Mr. Jimison. My duties was the same as usual; that is, to transport patients to and fro, reclean rooms, betwixt each case.

Mr. Specter. Did you have occasion to see President Kennedy on that day?

Mr. Jimison. I did not.

Mr. Specter. Did you have occasion to see Governor Connally on that day?

Mr. Jimison. I did.

Mr. Specter. What were the circumstances under which you saw Governor Connally?

Mr. Jimison. Well, I would say it wasn't such a pleasant circumstance, but he was lying on a carriage, a hospital carriage, and I was—I assisted in helping move him from the carriage to the operating table.

Mr. Specter. Where was he when you first saw him?

Mr. Jimison. He was on the second floor in the operating room suite, near room 4, where his operation was performed.

Mr. Specter. Was he taken to room 4 or room 5?

Mr. Jimison. He was taken in room—I thought it was room 4, but maybe it could have been room 5, but I taken it to be room 4, because like I told you, I helped lift him off of the table, but usually we help put them in the room—at that time there was so many doctors that I didn't.

126 Mr. Specter. Did you see Governor Connally from the time he came off of the elevator?

Mr. Jimison. No.

Mr. Specter. What floor were you on when you first saw him?

Mr. Jimison. I was on two.

Mr. Specter. How far was he from the elevator when you first saw him?

Mr. Jimison. I guess he must have been about 20 feet.

Mr. Specter. And how far was it from the elevator to the place where you were?

Mr. Jimison. About how many feet? About 20 or 30 feet.

Mr. Specter. Was he near the big clock when you first saw him, the clock that is overhead in the center there?

Mr. Jimison. Yes.

Mr. Specter. And were there doctors around him at that time?

Mr. Jimison. Yes.

Mr. Specter. And did you help push the stretcher from that point to——

Mr. Jimison. (interrupting) No; I followed behind him to room 4 and I helped them take him off.

Mr. Specter. You helped them take Governor Connally and put him on the operating table?

Mr. Jimison. I did.

Mr. Specter. And what then was done with the stretcher that he was on?

Mr. Jimison. Well, the stretcher at that time was moved back from the table, of course, because they had to make room for the doctors to get up close to the table, which was back just a'ways and when I got free—whether it was Miss Wester or Mrs. Ross there—they pushed it back a little further, but they didn't get quite to the elevator with it; I came along and pushed it onto the elevator myself and loaded it on and pushed the door closed.

Mr. Specter. What was on the stretcher at that time?

Mr. Jimison. I noticed nothing more than a little flat mattress and two sheets as usual.

Mr. Specter. And what was the position of the sheets?

Mr. Jimison. Of course, them sheets was, of course, as usual, flat out on the bed.

Mr. Specter. Had they been rolled up?

Mr. Jimison. More or less, not rolled, which, yes, usually they is, the mattress and sheets are all just throwed, one of them about halfway, it would be just throwed about halfway.

Mr. Specter. Were the sheets flat or just turned over?

Mr. Jimison. Well, just turned over.

Mr. Specter. Were they crumpled up in any way?

Mr. Jimison. Well, there was a possibility it was strictly—a tragic day.

Mr. Specter. It was what?

Mr. Jimison. It was a tragic day.

Mr. Specter. Right, and everybody was a little shook up on account of it?

Mr. Jimison. We didn't look too close.

Mr. Specter. Was there anything else on the stretcher?

Mr. Jimison. I never noticed anything else at all.

Mr. Specter. Could there have been some empty packets of hypodermic needles or an alcohol sponge?

Mr. Jimison. There could have been.

Mr. Specter. Or a 1-inch roll of tape?

Mr. Jimison. There could have been something—small stuff, but nothing large like bundles or anything like that.

Mr. Specter. What did you do with the stretcher then, you said?

Mr. Jimison. Pushed it on the rear elevator, which goes downstairs.

Mr. Specter. Is there any other elevator which goes downstairs to the emergency area?

Mr. Jimison. Not close in the emergency area—that's the only one.

Mr. Specter. What was the purpose for your putting it on that elevator?

Mr. Jimison. It goes back to emergency because it can be cleaned up there and remade and put in use again.

127 Mr. Specter. Is it customarily your job to put it back on the elevator?

Mr. Jimison. Yes; it is.

Mr. Specter. Did you ever take it down and put it in order yourself?

Mr. Jimison. No, sir; we never carry it down ourselves. The fact is—the purpose is—we have enough to do up there, and we have men up there to take care of that.

Mr. Specter. Somebody else is supposed to take the elevator up there? Is that right?

Mr. Jimison. One of them—we put it on the elevator, then it becomes the responsibility of the emergency room.

Mr. Specter. Was there any other stretcher placed on that elevator later that day?

Mr. Jimison. Not during my shift.

Mr. Specter. Are you the only man who would put the stretcher on the elevator if there were one?

Mr. Jimison. No, I is not, but might near—I could might near see of anybody—from where the elevator sits from where the halls were—I could might near see all of the stretchers put on there.

Mr. Specter. If a stretcher was put on there it would have to be in your presence?

Mr. Jimison. I would have had to be hid where I wouldn't be able to see it.

Mr. Specter. What time did you put the stretcher from Governor Connally on the elevator?

Mr. Jimison. I'm not too sure I know of the time. I really don't know exactly the time.

Mr. Specter. Well, about how long after he was taken into the operating room, did you?

Mr. Jimison. It was lesser than 10 minutes before or after.

Mr. Specter. What time did you get off that day?

Mr. Jimison. 3:30.

Mr. Specter. And you say there was no other stretcher placed on that elevator from the time you put Governor Connally's stretcher on until the end of the day?

Mr. Jimison. Until the end of my shift. You see, that's the emergency—from the emergency that we had from that time that he was brought up until I was relieved from duty that afternoon.

Mr. Specter. Did you notice any bullets on the stretcher?

Mr. Jimison. I never noticed any at all.

Mr. Specter. Did I sit down and talk with you for a few minutes before the court reporter came in to take this all down here today?

Mr. Jimison. Yes.

Mr. Specter. And have I asked you questions and have you given me answers just like in our short discussion before this deposition started?

Mr. Jimison. (No response.)

Mr. Specter. Did you and I talk about the same things we have been talking about since the court reporter came in?

Mr. Jimison. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Have you ever been talked to by any other person from the Federal Government?

Mr. Jimison. Yes, I have.

Mr. Specter. And who was that?

Mr. Jimison. I don't remember his name, but shortly after that happened—I don't know, as I say, it was the Federal Government.

Mr. Specter. What branch was he from?

Mr. Jimison. I thought he was from the Secret Service.

Mr. Specter. How many times did you talk to somebody from the Secret Service?

Mr. Jimison. Well, I talked to him once; he just talked to me once.

Mr. Specter. And what about?

Mr. Jimison. The same thing.

Mr. Specter. And did you ever talk to anybody else about this fact?

Mr. Jimison. No.

128 Mr. Specter. Do you have anything to add, that you think might be helpful to us?

Mr. Jimison. Well, no, because the fact is—because that's pretty well covered—just, I actually want to give facts about something I know something about, and during the time I know something about, and what actually happened from the time I got off—I couldn't tell you, but I do know there wasn't no carriage from the time that carriage was picked up until I got off from duty.

This ain't actually—not in it, but due to this—this is—what I'm fixing to say is off of the book—I couldn't see after President Kennedy because I didn't—I never did get up to the floor—so I didn't see him. I am glad if was any kind of help, Mr. Specter.

Mr. Specter. You have been, Mr. Jimison, and we appreciate your coming in and helping us a lot.

Mr. Jimison. Same back to you.

Mr. Specter. Thank you.


TESTIMONY OF DARRELL C. TOMLINSON

The testimony of Darrell C. Tomlinson was taken on March 20, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. Specter. Mr. Tomlinson, this is Miss Oliver, and she is the court reporter. Will you stand up and hold up your right hand and take the oath, please?

Do you solemnly swear that in the taking of your deposition in these proceedings, you will tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. Tomlinson. I do.

Mr. Specter. Would you state your full name, for the record?

Mr. Tomlinson. Darrell Carlisle Tomlinson.

Mr. Specter. Mr. Tomlinson, the purpose of this deposition proceeding is to take your deposition in connection with an inquiry made by the President's Commission in connection with the Assassination of President Kennedy to determine from you all the facts, if any, which you know concerning the events surrounding the assassination of President Kennedy and any treatment which was given at Parkland Memorial Hospital to either President Kennedy or Governor Connally, or anything that happened to any physical objects connected with either one of those men.

First of all, did you receive a letter advising you that the Commission was interested in having one of its staff lawyers take your deposition concerning this matter?

Mr. Tomlinson. Yes.

Mr. Specter. And did that letter include in it a copy of the Executive order creating the Commission?

Mr. Tomlinson. Yes.

Mr. Specter. And a copy of the congressional resolution concerning the creation of the President's Commission?

Mr. Tomlinson. Yes.

Mr. Specter. And a copy of the resolution governing questioning of witnesses by members of the Commission's staff?

Mr. Tomlinson. Yes.

Mr. Specter. And are you willing today for me to ask you some questions about what you observed or know about this matter?

Mr. Tomlinson. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. And it is satisfactory with you to proceed today rather than to have 3 days from the time you got the letter, which was yesterday?

Mr. Tomlinson. It's immaterial.

Mr. Specter. It's immaterial to you?

129 Mr. Tomlinson. It's immaterial—it's at your convenience.

Mr. Specter. That's fine. We appreciate that, Mr. Tomlinson.

The reason is, that you have the right to a 3-day notice, but if it doesn't matter to you, then we would like to go ahead and take your information today.

Mr. Tomlinson. Yes.

Mr. Specter. We call that a waiver under the law, if it is all right with you for us to talk with you today, then I want to go ahead and do that; is that all right?

Mr. Tomlinson. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Well, where are you employed, Mr. Tomlinson?

Mr. Tomlinson. Parkland Hospital.

Mr. Specter. And what is your capacity?

Mr. Tomlinson. I am classed as the senior engineer.

Mr. Specter. And what duties are involved in general?

Mr. Tomlinson. I'm in charge of the powerplant here at the hospital, which takes care of the heating and air-conditioning services for the building.

Mr. Specter. Will you describe the general physical layout relating to the emergency area and how you get from the emergency area, say, to the second floor emergency operating rooms of Parkland Memorial Hospital?

Mr. Tomlinson. You mean just the general lay?

Mr. Specter. Yes, sir; please.

Mr. Tomlinson. Well, we have one elevator that goes from the basement to the third floor, that's what we call the emergency elevator. It's in the south section of the hospital and that would be your most direct route to go from the ground floor, which emergency is on, to the operating rooms on two.

Mr. Specter. Now, did you have anything to do with that elevator on November 22, sometime around the noon hour?

Mr. Tomlinson. Yes.

Mr. Specter. And what did you have to do with that elevator?

Mr. Tomlinson. Well, we received a call in the engineer's office, the chief engineer's office, and he requested someone to operate the elevator.

Mr. Specter. Was there any problem with the elevator with respect to a mechanical difficulty of any sort?

Mr. Tomlinson. No, sir; it was an ordinary type elevator, and if it isn't keyed off it will stop every time somebody pushes a button, and they preferred it to go only to the second floor and to the ground floor unless otherwise instructed by the administrator.

Mr. Specter. So, what were you to do with this elevator?

Mr. Tomlinson. Key it off the ground, between ground and second floor.

Mr. Specter. So that you would operate it in that way?

Mr. Tomlinson. Yes; make a manual operation out of it.

Mr. Specter. When you came upon that elevator, what time was it, to the best of your recollection?

Mr. Tomlinson. It was around 1 o'clock.

Mr. Specter. Was there anything on the elevator at that time?

Mr. Tomlinson. There was one stretcher.

Mr. Specter. And describe the appearance of that stretcher, if you will, please.

Mr. Tomlinson. I believe that stretcher had sheets on it and had a white covering on the pad.

Mr. Specter. What did you say about the covering on the pad, excuse me?

Mr. Tomlinson. I believe it was a white sheet that was on the pad.

Mr. Specter. And was there anything else on that?

Mr.Tomlinson. I don't believe there was on that one, I'm not sure, but I don't believe there was.

Mr. Specter. What, if anything, did you do with that stretcher?

Mr. Tomlinson. I took it off of the elevator and put it over against the south wall.

Mr. Specter. On what floor?

Mr. Tomlinson. The ground floor.

Mr. Specter. Was there any other stretcher in that area at that time?

130 Mr. Tomlinson. There was a stretcher about 2 feet from the wall already there.

(Indicating on drawing to which the witness referred.)

Mr. Specter. Now, you have just pointed to a drawing which you have made of this situation, have you not, while we were talking a few minutes before the court reporter started to take down your testimony?

Mr. Tomlinson. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. Now, would you mark in ink with my pen the stretcher which you pushed off of the elevator?

Mr. Tomlinson. I think that it was this one right here (indicating).

Mr. Specter. Will you draw the outline of it in ink and mark an "A" right in the center of that?

(Witness complied with request of Counsel Specter.)

Mr. Specter. Now, would you mark in ink the position of the stretcher which was already on the first floor?

Mr. Tomlinson. This was the ground floor.

Mr. Specter. Pardon me, on the ground floor? Is there a different designation for the first floor?

Mr. Tomlinson. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Where is the first floor?

Mr. Tomlinson. One above the ground. We have basement, ground, first, second, and third on that elevator.

Mr. Specter. What floor was Governor Connally taken to, if you know?

Mr. Tomlinson. He was on two, he was in the operating rooms up on two. That's our surgical suites up there.

Mr. Specter. And what level is the emergency entrance of the hospital on?

Mr. Tomlinson. Well, it's the ground floor—it's there at the back of the hospital, you see, it's built on the incline there.

Mr. Specter. And the elevator which you found in this area was on the ground floor?

Mr. Tomlinson. The elevator?

Mr. Specter. The stretcher.

Mr. Tomlinson. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Will you mark with a "B" the stretcher which was present at the time you pushed stretcher "A" off of the elevator?

Mr. Tomlinson. (Witness complied with the request of Counsel Specter.) I believe that's it.

Mr. Specter. Now, what, if anything, did you later observe as to stretcher "B"?

Mr. Tomlinson. Well, sir; I don't recall how long it had been exactly, but an intern or doctor, I didn't know which, came to use the men's room there in the elevator lobby.

Mr. Specter. Where is the men's room located on this diagram?

Mr. Tomlinson. It would be right there (indicating) beside the "B" stretcher.

Mr. Specter. Would you draw in ink there the outline of that room in a general way?

Mr. Tomlinson. Well, I really don't know.

Mr. Specter. And would you mark that with the letter "C"?

(Witness complied with request of Counsel Specter.)

Mr. Specter. That's fine. What happened when that gentleman came to use the men's room?

Mr. Tomlinson. Well, he pushed the stretcher out from the wall to get in, and then when he came out he just walked off and didn't push the stretcher back up against the wall, so I pushed it out of the way where we would have clear area in front of the elevator.

Mr. Specter. And where did you push it to?

Mr. Tomlinson. I pushed it back up against the wall.

Mr. Specter. What, if anything, happened then?

Mr. Tomlinson. I bumped the wall and a spent cartridge or bullet rolled out that apparently had been lodged under the edge of the mat.

Mr. Specter. And that was from which stretcher?

Mr. Tomlinson. I believe that it was "B".

131 Mr. Specter. And what was on "B", if you recall; if anything?

Mr. Tomlinson. Well, at one end they had one or two sheets rolled up; I didn't examine them. They were bloody. They were rolled up on the east end of it and there were a few surgical instruments on the opposite end and a sterile pack or so.

Mr. Specter. A sterile what?

Mr. Tomlinson. A sterile pack.

Mr. Specter. What do you mean by that?

Mr. Tomlinson. Like gauze or something like that.

Mr. Specter. Was there an alcohol sponge?

Mr. Tomlinson. There could have been.

Mr. Specter. Was there a roll of 1-inch tape?

Mr. Tomlinson. No; I don't think so.

Mr. Specter. Were there any empty packets from hypodermic needles?

Mr. Tomlinson. Well, now, it had some paper there but I don't know what they came from.

Mr. Specter. Now, Mr. Tomlinson, are you sure that it was stretcher "A" that you took out of the elevator and not stretcher "B"?

Mr. Tomlinson. Well, really, I can't be positive, just to be perfectly honest about it, I can't be positive, because I really didn't pay that much attention to it. The stretcher was on the elevator and I pushed it off of there and I believe we made one or two calls up before I straightened out the stretcher up against the wall.

Mr. Specter. When you say "one or two calls," what do you mean by that?

Mr. Tomlinson. Went to pick up the technician from the second floor to bring him down to the ground floor to get blood.

Mr. Specter. And when you say before you straightened the stretcher up, what do you mean by that?

Mr. Tomlinson. Well, we just rolled them out of the way where we had some room on the elevator—that's a small elevator.

Mr. Specter. So, when you rolled them out of the elevator, when you rolled the stretcher out of the elevator, did you place it against the wall at that time?

Mr. Tomlinson. No.

Mr. Specter. Were both of these stretchers constructed in the same way?

Mr. Tomlinson. Similar—yes.

Mr. Specter. Will you describe the appearance of the stretcher with reference to what it was made of and how many shelves it had, and that sort of thing?

Mr. Tomlinson. Well, it's made of tubed steel with a flat iron frame on the top where you lay the patient and it has one shelf down between the four wheels.

Mr. Specter. Does it have any bumpers on it?

Mr. Tomlinson. Yes, and it has rubber bumpers.

Mr. Specter. Does it have any rail to keep the patient on?

Mr. Tomlinson. Yes; they have the rails on the side made of tubed steel. The majority of them have those.

Mr. Specter. Now, just before we started this deposition, before I placed you under oath and before the court reporter started to take down my questions and your answers, you and I had a brief talk, did we not?

Mr. Tomlinson. Yes.

Mr. Specter. And we discussed in a general way the information which you have testified about, did we not?

Mr. Tomlinson. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. And at the time we started our discussion, it was your recollection at that point that the bullet came off of stretcher A, was it not?

Mr. Tomlinson. B.

Mr. Specter. Pardon me, stretcher B, but it was stretcher A that you took off of the elevator.

Mr. Tomlinson. I believe that's right.

Mr. Specter. But there is no question but that at the time we started our discussion a few minutes before the court reporter started to take it down,132 that your best recollection was that it was stretcher A which came off of the elevator?

Mr. Tomlinson. Yes, I believe that was it—yes.

Mr. Specter. Have you been interviewed about this matter by any other Federal representative?

Mr. Tomlinson. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Who interviewed you about it?

Mr. Tomlinson. I don't remember the name of either one of them, but one was the FBI man and one was the Secret Service man.

Mr. Specter. How many times did the FBI interview you?

Mr. Tomlinson. Once.

Mr. Specter. How many times did the Secret Service interview you?

Mr. Tomlinson. Once.

Mr. Specter. When did the FBI interview you?

Mr. Tomlinson. I believe they were the first to do it.

Mr. Specter. Approximately when was that?

Mr. Tomlinson. I think that was the latter part of November.

Mr. Specter. And when did the Secret Service interview you?

Mr. Tomlinson. Approximately a week later, the first part of December.

Mr. Specter. Now, do you recollect what the FBI man asked you about?

Mr. Tomlinson. Just about where I found the bullet.

Mr. Specter. Did he ask you about these stretchers?

Mr. Tomlinson. Well, he asked me about the stretchers, yes, just about the same thing we've gone over here.

Mr. Specter. What did the Secret Service man ask you about?

Mr. Tomlinson. Approximately the same thing, only, we've gone into more detail here.

Mr. Specter. What did you tell the Secret Service man about which stretcher you took off of the elevator?

Mr. Tomlinson. I told him that I was not sure, and I am not—I'm not sure of it, but as I said, I would be going against the oath which I took a while ago, because I am definitely not sure.

Mr. Specter. Do you remember if you told the Secret Service man which stretcher you thought you took off of the elevator?

Mr. Tomlinson. Well, we talked about taking a stretcher off of the elevator, but then when it comes down on an oath, I wouldn't say for sure, I really don't remember.

Mr. Specter. And do you recollect whether or not you told the Secret Service man which stretcher you took off of the elevator?

Mr. Tomlinson. What do you mean?

Mr. Specter. You say you can't really take an oath today to be sure whether it was stretcher A or stretcher B that you took off the elevator?

Mr. Tomlinson. Well, today or any other day, I'm just not sure of it, whether it was A or B that I took off.

Mr. Specter. Well, has your recollection always been the same about the situation, that is, today, and when you talked to the Secret Service man and when you talked to the FBI man?

Mr. Tomlinson. Yes; I told him that I wasn't sure.

Mr. Specter. So, what you told the Secret Service man was just about the same thing as you have told me today?

Mr. Tomlinson. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. When I first started to ask you about this, Mr. Tomlinson, you initially identified stretcher A as the one which came off of the elevator car?

Mr. Tomlinson. Yes; I think it's just like that.

Mr. Specter. And, then, when——

Mr. Tomlinson (interrupting). Here's the deal—I rolled that thing off, we got a call, and went to second floor, picked the man up and brought him down. He went on over across, to clear out of the emergency area, but across from it, and picked up two pints of, I believe it was, blood. He told me to hold for him, he had to get right back to the operating room, so I held, and the minute he hit there, we took off for the second floor and I came back to the ground. Now, I don't know how many people went through that—I don't know how many133 people hit them—I don't know anything about what could have happened to them in between the time I was gone, and I made several trips before I discovered the bullet on the end of it there.

Mr. Specter. You think, then, that this could have been either, you took out of the elevator as you sit here at the moment, or you just can't be sure?

Mr. Tomlinson. It could be, but I can't be positive or positively sure—I think it was A, but I'm not sure.

Mr. Specter. That you took off of the elevator?

Mr. Tomlinson. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Now, before I started to ask you questions under oath, which have been taken down here, I told you, did I not, that the Secret Service man wrote a report where he said that the bullet was found on the stretcher which you took off of the elevator—I called that to your attention, didn't I?

Mr. Tomlinson. Yes; you told me that.

Mr. Specter. Now, after I tell you that, does that have any effect on refreshing your recollection of what you told the Secret Service man?

Mr. Tomlinson. No; it really doesn't—it really doesn't.

Mr. Specter. So, would it be a fair summary to say that when I first started to talk to you about it, your first view was that the stretcher you took off of the elevator was stretcher A, and then I told you that the Secret Service man said it was—that you had said the stretcher you took off of the elevator was the one that you found the bullet off, and when we talked about the whole matter and talked over the entire situation, you really can't be completely sure about which stretcher you took off of the elevator, because you didn't push the stretcher that you took off of the elevator right against the wall at first?

Mr. Tomlinson. That's right.

Mr. Specter. And, there was a lot of confusion that day, which is what you told me before?

Mr. Tomlinson. Absolutely. And now, honestly, I don't remember telling him definitely—I know we talked about it, and I told him that it could have been. Now, he might have drawed his own conclusion on that.

Mr. Specter. You told the Secret Service agent that you didn't know where——

Mr. Tomlinson (interrupting). He asked me if it could have been brought down from the second floor.

Mr. Specter. You got the stretcher from where the bullet came from, whether it was brought down from the second floor?

Mr. Tomlinson. It could have been—I'm not sure whether it was A I took off.

Mr. Specter. But did you tell the Secret Service man which one you thought it was you took off of the elevator?

Mr. Tomlinson. I'm not clear on that—whether I absolutely made a positive statement to that effect.

Mr. Specter. You told him that it could have been B you took off of the elevator?

Mr. Tomlinson. That's right.

Mr. Specter. But, you don't remember whether you told him it was A you took off of the elevator?

Mr. Tomlinson. I think it was A—I'm not really sure.

Mr. Specter. Which did you tell the Secret Service agent—that you thought it was A that you took off of the elevator?

Mr. Tomlinson. Really, I couldn't be real truthful in saying I told him this or that.

Mr. Specter. You just don't remember for sure whether you told him you thought it was A or not?

Mr. Tomlinson. No, sir; I really don't remember. I'm not accustomed to being questioned by the Secret Service and the FBI and by you and they are writing down everything, I mean.

Mr. Specter. That's all right. I understand exactly what you are saying and I appreciate it and I really just want to get your best recollection.

We understand it isn't easy to remember all that went on, on a day like November 22d, and that a man's recollection is not perfect like every other part of a man, but I want you to tell me just what you remember, and that's the134 best you can do today, and I appreciate that, and so does the President's Commission, and that's all we can ask a man.

Mr. Tomlinson. Yes, I'm going to tell you all I can, and I'm not going to tell you something I can't lay down and sleep at night with either.

Mr. Specter. Do you know where the stretcher came from that you found on the elevator?

Mr. Tomlinson. No, sir; I do not. It could have come from two, it could have come from three, it could have come from some other place.

Mr. Specter. You didn't see anybody put it there?

Mr. Tomlinson. No, sir—it was on the elevator when I got there. There wasn't anyone on the elevator at the time when I keyed it off.

Mr. Specter. And when you say "keyed it off," you mean?

Mr. Tomlinson. Put it in manual operation.

Mr. Specter. Mr. Tomlinson, does it make any difference to you whether you sign this deposition at the end or not?

Mr. Tomlinson. No.

Mr. Specter. We very much appreciate your coming, Mr. Tomlinson. Thank you very much. Those are all the questions I have.

Mr. Tomlinson. All right. Thank you.

Mr. Specter. Off the record.

(Discussion between counsel and the witness Tomlinson regarding a proposed exhibit.)

Mr. Specter. On the record.

Now that the deposition of Mr. Tomlinson has been concluded, I am having the paper marked as Tomlinson Exhibit No. 2.

(Instrument marked by the reporter as Tomlinson Exhibit No. 2, for identification.)

Mr. Specter. May the record show that Mr. Tomlinson is present, and will you identify this paper marked Tomlinson Exhibit No. 2 as the one which contains the diagram of the emergency room and the letters A and B of the stretchers we have been discussing?

Mr. Tomlinson. That's just the elevator lobby in emergency.

Mr. Specter. And this is the diagram which you drew for us?

Mr. Tomlinson. Yes.

Mr. Specter. That's all, and thank you very much.


TESTIMONY OF DIANA HAMILTON BOWRON

The testimony of Diana Hamilton Bowron was taken at 2:05 p.m., on March 24, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. Specter. May the record show that Diana Bowron is present following a verbal request that she appear here to have her deposition taken. During the course of deposition proceedings on March 20 and March 21, it came to my attention that Miss Bowron would have information of value to the Commission, and authorization was provided through the General Counsel, J. Lee Rankin, for her deposition to be taken.

Miss Bowron, the President's Commission is investigating the assassination of President Kennedy and is interested in certain facts relating to his treatment and presence at Parkland Memorial Hospital, and we have asked you to appear here to testify concerning your knowledge of his presence here.

Now, I have shown you, have I not, the Executive order appointing the Presidential Commission and the resolution authorizing the taking of testimony at depositions by Commission staff members, have I not?

Miss Bowron. Yes.

Mr. Specter. And are you willing to have your deposition taken today without 3 days' written notice, as we ordinarily provide?

135 Miss Bowron. Yes.

Mr. Specter. So, are you willing to waive that technical requirement?

Miss Bowron. Yes, I am.

Mr. Specter. All right. Will you stand up and raise your right hand?

Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give before the President's Commission in these deposition proceedings will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Miss Bowron. I do.

Mr. Specter. What is your permanent residence address, Miss Bowron?

Miss Bowron. 1107 Brockbank, Dallas 29, Tex.

Mr. Specter. Will you spell that street name and speak up more loudly?

Miss Bowron. B-r-o-c-k-b-a-n-k [spelling].

Mr. Specter. Thank you. Are you a native of Dallas, or of some other area?

Miss Bowron. I am a native of England.

Mr. Specter. And how long have you been in Dallas?

Miss Bowron. Since August 4, 1963.

Mr. Specter. And what are the circumstances surrounding your employment here at Parkland Memorial Hospital?

Miss Bowron. I answered an advertisement in August and came over on a year's contract and to work in the emergency room.

Mr. Specter. Are you a registered nurse?

Miss Bowron. Yes.

Mr. Specter. And what is your educational background?

Miss Bowron. I went to private boarding school and to secondary school, and then I went through nurses training for 3 years and 3 months in England. I finished in February of last year.

Mr. Specter. And how old are you at the present time?

Miss Bowron. Twenty two.

Mr. Specter. Did you have occasion to render assistance to President Kennedy back on November 22, 1963?

Miss Bowron. I did; yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. Will you relate briefly the circumstances surrounding your being called in to assist in that case?

Miss Bowron. I was assigned to work in the minor medicine and surgery area, and I was passing through major surgery, and I heard over the intercom that they needed carts out at the emergency room entrance, so the orderly from the triage desk, which was passing through and he and I took one cart from major surgery and ran down the hall and by the cashier's desk there were some men I assume were Secret Service men.

Mr. Specter. Did you know at that time whom you were going to aid?

Miss Bowron. No, sir.

Mr. Specter. You later assumed they were Secret Service men?

Miss Bowron. Yes, sir, and they encouraged us to run down to the door.

Mr. Specter. And did you have a stretcher with you at that time?

Miss Bowron. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. And was one stretcher or more than one stretcher being brought forward at that time?

Miss Bowron. There was another stretcher being brought forward from the OB—GYN section.

Mr. Specter. That's the obstetrics and gynecology section?

Miss Bowron. Yes.

Mr. Specter. And were you wheeling one stretcher by yourself or was some one helping?

Miss Bowron. No, the orderly from the triage desk was helping us.

Mr. Specter. Was helping you?

Miss Bowron. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Who was that?

Miss Bowron. Joe—I've forgotten what his last name is. I'm sorry. I know his first name is Joe and he's on duty today.

Mr. Specter. And who was bringing the other stretcher?

Miss Bowron. I don't know, sir. I heard afterwards, that Dr. Midgett took one stretcher. I don't know who was assisting him.

136 Mr. Specter. And what is Dr. Midgett's first name?

Miss Bowron. Bill.

Mr. Specter. And, where did you take your stretcher?

Miss Bowron. To the left-hand side of the car as you are facing it, and we had to move Governor Connally out first because he was in the front. We couldn't get to the back seat. While all the Secret Service men were moving Governor Connally I went around to the other side of the car to try to help with the President and then we got him onto the second cart and then took him straight over to trauma room 1.

Mr. Specter. Trauma room No. 1?

Miss Bowron. Yes.

Mr. Specter. And describe in a general way Governor Connally's condition when you first saw him?

Miss Bowron. He was very pale, he was leaning forward and onto Mrs. Connally but apparently—I didn't notice very much—I was more concerned with the person in the back of the car—the President.

Mr. Specter. And what, in a general way, did you observe with respect to President Kennedy's condition?

Miss Bowron. He was moribund—he was lying across Mrs. Kennedy's knee and there seemed to be blood everywhere. When I went around to the other side of the car I saw the condition of his head.

Mr. Specter. You saw the condition of his what?

Miss Bowron. The back of his head.

Mr. Specter. And what was that condition?

Miss Bowron. Well, it was very bad—you know.

Mr. Specter. How many holes did you see?

Miss Bowron. I just saw one large hole.

Mr. Specter. Did you see a small bullet hole beneath that one large hole?

Miss Bowron. No, sir.

Mr. Specter. Did you notice any other wound on the President's body?

Miss Bowron. No, sir.

Mr. Specter. And what action did you take at that time, if any?

Miss Bowron. I helped to lift his head and Mrs. Kennedy pushed me away and lifted his head herself onto the cart and so I went around back to the cart and walked off with it. We ran on with it to the trauma room and she ran beside us.

Mr. Specter. And who was in the trauma room when you arrived there?

Miss Bowron. Dr. Carrico.

Mr. Specter. Where did Dr. Carrico join you?

Miss Bowron. At the—I couldn't really tell you exactly, but it was inside major surgery. Miss Henchliffe, the other nurse who is assigned to major surgery, was in the trauma room already setting the I.V.'s—the intravenous bottles up.

Mr. Specter. And were there any other nurses present at that time when the President arrived in the trauma area?

Miss Bowron. I don't think so, sir.

Mr. Specter. Were there any doctors present besides Dr. Carrico?

Miss Bowron. I didn't notice anybody—there may have been.

Mr. Specter. What action did you observe Dr. Carrico take, if any?

Miss Bowron. We tried to start an I.V. cutdown and I don't know whether it was his left or his right leg, and Miss Henchliffe and I cut off his clothing and then after that everybody just arrived at once and it was more or less everybody sort of helping everybody else. We opened the chest tube trays and the venesectron trays.

Mr. Specter. How long were you present in the emergency room No. 1?

Miss Bowron. I was in there until they needed some blood, which was the second lot of blood. I went—ran out across to the blood bank and came back and went into the trauma room. By that time they had decided that he was dead, they said.

And then, we stayed in there with him and cleaned him up, removed all of his clothing and put them all together and Miss Henchliffe gave them to137 one of the Secret Service men, and we stayed with the body until the coffin came, and helped put him in there, and then we——

Mr. Specter. When you say "we", whom do you mean by "we"?

Miss Bowron. Miss Henchliffe and myself.

Mr. Specter. Anybody besides the two of you?

Miss Bowron. Yes; there was an orderly called David Sanders who helped us to clean the floor, because there were leaves and sheets and everything was rather a mess on the floor and he came to clean the floor for us so that it wouldn't look so bad when Mrs. Kennedy went in. And then Mrs. Kennedy wanted to be alone with him after the priests left, so we all came out and sat there outside and she was alone with him in the trauma room, and we didn't go in any more after that.

Mr. Specter. Did you see him at any time after that?

Miss Bowron. No, sir—only when they were wheeling him out in the coffin.

Mr. Specter. What doctors were present during the time he was being treated?

Miss Bowron. Dr. Carrico and—who else was there—there were so many.

Mr. Specter. Do you recall any of the names?

Miss Bowron. I don't.

Mr. Specter. Was there any other nurses present other than those you have already mentioned?

Miss Bowron. Miss Standridge, Jeanette Standridge came in, Mrs. Nelson—the supervisor.

Mr. Specter. Any other nurses present there?

Miss Bowron. Not that I could say, sir—I don't know the name of any.

Mr. Specter. While the doctors were working on President Kennedy, did you ever have any opportunity to observe his neck?

Miss Bowron. No; I didn't, until afterwards.

Mr. Specter. Until after what?

Miss Bowron. Until after they had pronounced him dead and we cleaned up and removed the trach tube, and indeed we were really too shocked to really take much notice.

Mr. Specter. Did you ever see his neck prior to the time you removed the trach tube?

Miss Bowron. No, sir.

Mr. Specter. Now, did you personally participate in removing President Kennedy's body from the stretcher?

Miss Bowron. No, sir—I didn't touch him. We held him with the sheet.

Mr. Specter. Were you present when his body was removed from the stretcher?

Miss Bowron. Yes; I was.

Mr. Specter. And did you observe the stretcher from which his body was removed to be the same stretcher that he had been brought into trauma room No. 1 on?

Miss Bowron. Yes.

Mr. Specter. That's the stretcher you took out there for him?

Miss Bowron. Yes.

Mr. Specter. And what sheets were present on the stretcher or in the adjacent area used in the care of President Kennedy?

Miss Bowron. The sheets that had already been on the stretcher when we took it out with the President on. When we came back after all the work had been done on him—so that Mrs. Kennedy could have a look before he was, you know, really moved into the coffin. We wrapped some extra sheets around his head so it wouldn't look so bad and there were some sheets on the floor so that nobody would step in the blood. Those were put down during all the work that was going on so the doctors wouldn't slip.

Mr. Specter. What was done with all of the sheets on the stretcher and on floor area there?

Miss Bowron. They were all gathered up and put into a linen scape.

Mr. Specter. Did you gather them up yourself?

Miss Bowron. Yes.

Mr. Specter. All of them?

138 Miss Bowron. Yes; with the help of Miss Henchliffe.

Mr. Specter. And did the two of you put them in the linen hamper?

Miss Bowron. Yes; I put them in the linen hamper myself.

Mr. Specter. What was done with the stretcher then?

Miss Bowron. The stretcher was then wheeled across into trauma room No. 2, which was empty.

Mr. Specter. Was there anything on the stretcher at all when it was wheeled into trauma room No. 2?

Miss Bowron. Not that we noticed, except the rubber mattress that was left on it.

Mr. Specter. Would you have noticed anything had anything been on that stretcher?

Miss Bowron. Yes; I think so.

Mr. Specter. And where was the stretcher when you last saw it?

Miss Bowron. Being wheeled across into trauma room 2.

Mr. Specter. Now, I am going to show you three photostatic copies of newspaper stories which I will ask the Court Reporter to mark Bowron Exhibit Nos. 2, 3 and 4.

(Instruments referred to marked by the Reporter as Bowron Exhibit Nos. 2, 3, and 4, for identification.)

Mr. Specter. Will you look at those and tell me whether or not those are photostatic copies of newspaper accounts of your story of this assassination day?

Miss Bowron. They are photostatic copies of the articles that appeared in the newspapers, but they are not all my story.

Mr. Specter. What newspapers did they appear in?

Miss Bowron. I believe this is the "Observer".

Mr. Specter. You are referring to BX Number 2 and what city is that published in?

Miss Bowron. London.

Mr. Specter. And BX Number 3 came from where?

Miss Bowron. I think that this was "The Mail—The Daily Mail".

Mr. Specter. Appearing in what city?

Miss Bowron. It appears in all cities. It is a national newspaper.

Mr. Specter. In England?

Miss Bowron. Yes; it is prepared in England.

Mr. Specter. And how about BX-4?

Miss Bowron. Well, this I think was "The Mirror" I think.

Mr. Specter. What city is The Mirror published in?

Miss Bowron. That is a national newspaper.

Mr. Specter. Appearing in England?

Miss Bowron. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Were there any stories in any other newspapers about you and your participation in the events of the day at Parkland?

Miss Bowron. I believe there was one—I think it was an Australian paper and Mrs. Nelson received a letter from there with an article and which was the same as I think—as this one.

Mr. Specter. BX-4?

Miss Bowron. Yes.

Mr. Specter. And does that constitute all the stories which appeared about your participation in this event?

Miss Bowron. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Now, will you state briefly the circumstances under which this information was obtained, if you know?

Miss Bowron. Mrs. Nelson spoke to me and told me that there had been two English reporters in Dallas who had been asking about me, and she told them where to get in touch with me, and the next day they came to the emergency room and wanted to speak to me and I said I couldn't tell them anything other than I was from England, gave them my home address, and the fact that I had been present and I was the one who went out to the car and brought the President in and being with him until they finished, and that was all that I told them.

Mr. Specter. Did you give them any information beyond that?

139 Miss Bowron. No, sir; and they told me that there would probably be some English reporters calling on my parents at home, and I am the only child and my mother worries, so I called home the next—that night and told my parents that I had been on duty and that there would probably be some reporters calling on them, and they weren't to worry about it but they weren't to say anything that—except that I had been on duty and that was all.

Mr. Specter. Have you been interviewed by any representative of the Federal Government prior to today?

Miss Bowron. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. By whom?

Miss Bowron. I don't really know—he was an FBI agent.

Mr. Specter. And when was that?

Miss Bowron. It was a week or two, I think, after the assassination.

Mr. Specter. And what did he ask you and what did you tell him?

Miss Bowron. He asked us more or less the same questions you have asked us.

Mr. Specter. What did you tell him?

Miss Bowron. The same as I told you.

Mr. Specter. When you say "us", whom do you mean by "us"?

Miss Bowron. Mrs. Nelson was there and Miss Henchliffe and myself.

Mr. Specter. Have you talked to any other representatives of the Federal Government prior to today?

Miss Bowron. No, sir.

Mr. Specter. And did I discuss with you the purpose of the deposition and the nature of the questions that I would ask you immediately before we went on the record with this being taken down by the Court Reporter?

Miss Bowron. Yes.

Mr. Specter. And did you give me the same information which you have put on the record here today?

Miss Bowron. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Do you have anything to add that you think might be helpful in any way to the Commission?

Miss Bowron. Yes. When we were doing a cutdown on the President's left arm, his gold watch was in the way and they broke it—you know, undid it and it was slipping down and I just dropped it off of his hand and put it in my pocket and forgot completely about it until his body was being taken out of the emergency room and then I realized, and ran out to give it to one of the Secret Service men or anybody I could find and found this Mr. Wright.

Mr. Specter. Was that the same day?

Miss Bowron. Yes—he had only just gone through O.B.—I was just a few feet behind him.

Mr. Specter. Do you think of anything else that might be of assistance to the Commission?

Miss Bowron. No, sir.

Mr. Specter. Thank you very much for coming, Miss Bowron.

Miss Bowron. Thank you.

Mr. Specter. Thank you a lot.

Miss Bowron. All right, thank you.


TESTIMONY OF MARGARET M. HENCHLIFFE

The testimony of Margaret M. Henchliffe was taken at 2 p.m., on March 21, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. Specter. Miss Henchliffe, the purpose of our asking you to come in today is in connection with the investigation being conducted by the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy. The Commission has not written to you because, we have learned from Mrs. Doris Nelson in the deposition140 taken yesterday that you have some information of value to provide to us so that the regular procedure has not been followed of sending you a copy of the Executive order or of the resolution concerning the procedures of the taking of testimony.

Permit me to make those documents available to you.

(Handed instruments to the Witness Henchliffe.)

Let me say that since yesterday I have contacted Mr. J. Lee Rankin, General Counsel, in Washington and he has authorized the taking of this deposition by letter, which I received today, so that it has been authorized, and the real question I have with you is whether it is all right with you to provide us with the information you have today, as opposed to sometime next week after you have had the 3 days' notice which you are entitled to if you want it?

Miss Henchliffe. It is all right with me.

Mr. Specter. Is it all right with you to proceed and have your deposition taken today?

Miss Henchliffe. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you shall give before this Commission as it is holding deposition proceedings now will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Miss Henchliffe. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Will you state your full name, please?

Miss Henchliffe. Margaret M. Henchliffe.

Mr. Specter. What is your occupation or profession?

Miss Henchliffe. I am a nurse, registered nurse.

Mr. Specter. And where are you employed?

Miss Henchliffe. Parkland Memorial Hospital.

Mr. Specter. And where were you employed on November 22, 1963?

Miss Henchliffe. Parkland Memorial Hospital.

Mr. Specter. And were you notified on that date that the President was on his way to the hospital?

Miss Henchliffe. No, sir; I didn't know it at the time until later.

Mr. Specter. When did you first learn about it, if at all?

Miss Henchliffe. I found out who it was when I went out to get blood.

Mr. Specter. About what time of day was that?

Miss Henchliffe. Well. I guess it was about 2 minutes after he came in.

Mr. Specter. Did you observe him at some place in the hospital?

Miss Henchliffe. I was working with him in the emergency room.

Mr. Specter. Had he arrived in the emergency room when you first arrived at the site of the emergency room?

Miss Henchliffe. Do what?

Mr. Specter. Were you in the area of the emergency room before he came there?

Miss Henchliffe. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Did you see him actually wheeled into the emergency room?

Miss Henchliffe. Yes; in fact, I helped wheel him on into trauma room 1.

Mr. Specter. And, where was he when you first saw him?

Miss Henchliffe. He was between trauma rooms 1 and 2.

Mr. Specter. Did you see him when he was brought into the hospital itself?

Miss Henchliffe. At the emergency entrance—no. It was after he came into the emergency room.

Mr. Specter. He came into the emergency area?

Miss Henchliffe. Yes.

Mr. Specter. And then you saw him and helped wheel him, you say, into the emergency room No. 1?

Miss Henchliffe. Yes.

Mr. Specter. And who else was present at the time you first saw him when he had just come into the emergency area?

Miss Henchliffe. Let me see, I think Dr. Carrico was there—he was there very shortly after—afterwards.

Mr. Specter. He was there when you arrived? Or arrived shortly after you did?

141 Miss Henchliffe. Well, actually I went in ahead of the cart with him and I was the first one in with him, and just in a minute, or seconds, Dr. Carrico came in.

Mr. Specter. And what other doctors arrived, if any?

Miss Henchliffe. Oh, gee. Let's see—there was Dr. Baxter, Dr. Perry, and you want all of them that were in the room?

Mr. Specter. If you can remember them.

Miss Henchliffe. Dr. Kemp Clark, Dr. Jenkins, Dr. Peters, Dr. Crenshaw, and there was some woman anesthetist that I don't know which—who it was.

Mr. Specter. What did you observe to be the President's condition when you first saw him?

Miss Henchliffe. I saw him breathe a couple of times and that was all.

Mr. Specter. Did you see any wound anywhere on his body?

Miss Henchliffe. Yes, he was very bloody; his head was very bloody when I saw him at the time.

Mr. Specter. Did you ever see any wound in any other part of his body?

Miss Henchliffe. When I first saw him—except his head.

Mr. Specter. Did you see any wound on any other part of his body?

Miss Henchliffe. Yes; in the neck.

Mr. Specter. Will you describe it, please?

Miss Henchliffe. It was just a little hole in the middle of his neck.

Mr. Specter. About how big a hole was it?

Miss Henchliffe. About as big around as the end of my little finger.

Mr. Specter. Have you ever had any experience with bullet holes?

Miss Henchliffe. Yes.

Mr. Specter. And what did that appear to you to be?

Miss Henchliffe. An entrance bullet hole—it looked to me like.

Mr. Specter. Could it have been an exit bullet hole?

Miss Henchliffe. I have never seen an exit bullet hole—I don't remember seeing one that looked like that.

Mr. Specter. What were the characteristics of the hole?

Miss Henchliffe. It was just a little round—just a little round hole, just a little round jagged-looking—jagged a little bit.

Mr. Specter. What experience have you had in observing bullet holes, Miss Henchliffe?

Miss Henchliffe. Well, we take care of a lot of bullet wounds down there—I don't know how many a year.

Mr. Specter. Have you ever had any formal studies of bullet holes?

Miss Henchliffe. Oh, no; nothing except my experience in the emergency room.

Mr. Specter. In what?

Miss Henchliffe. In the emergency room is all.

Mr. Specter. What was done to the President after he arrived at the emergency room?

Miss Henchliffe. Well the first thing, his endotracheal tube was inserted.

Mr. Specter. Were you present all the time he was in the emergency room?

Miss Henchliffe. Except when I left out to get blood.

Mr. Specter. And how long were you gone?

Miss Henchliffe. Oh, about 3 minutes or so—3 or 4 minutes.

Mr. Specter. And were you present when he was pronounced dead?

Miss Henchliffe. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. What was done with the President's body after he was pronounced to be dead?

Miss Henchliffe. Well, after the last rites were said, we then undressed him and cleaned him up and wrapped him up in sheets until the coffin was brought.

Mr. Specter. And after the coffin arrived, what was done with his body?

Miss Henchliffe. He was placed in the coffin.

Mr. Specter. What had he been on up until that time?

Miss Henchliffe. An emergency room cart.

Mr. Specter. And is that also described as a stretcher?

Miss Henchliffe. A stretcher—yes.

Mr. Specter. Would you describe what this stretcher looked like?

142 Miss Henchliffe. Well, how do you describe a stretcher—it's just a long——

Mr. Specter. Made of metal?

Miss Henchliffe. Yes; it's made of metal.

Mr. Specter. On roller wheels?

Miss Henchliffe. Roller wheels with a rubber mattress on it, rubber covered mattress on it.

Mr. Specter. And after he was taken off of the stretcher, what was left on the stretcher at that time?

Miss Henchliffe. Just some sheets and I guess there were some dirty syringes and needles laying on it that we picked up.

Mr. Specter. That you picked up—where were they placed?

Miss Henchliffe. We placed them on a tray and took them all out to the utility room.

Mr. Specter. How many sheets were there on the stretcher?

Miss Henchliffe. Well, I am really not sure—there was probably about two or three.

Mr. Specter. And in what position were they all on the stretcher after President Kennedy's body was removed?

Miss Henchliffe. Well, one was covering the whole mattress and there was one or two that we had left just under his head, that had been placed under his head.

Mr. Specter. And what was done with those sheets?

Miss Henchliffe. They were all rolled up and taken to the dirty linen hamper.

Mr. Specter. Do you know who took those to the dirty linen hamper?

Miss Henchliffe. To the best of my knowledge, the orderly.

Mr. Specter. And who was he?

Miss Henchliffe. David Sanders—is that his name?

Mr. Specter. And what was done with the stretcher?

Miss Henchliffe. It was rolled into the room across the hall.

Mr. Specter. Did you actually see the stretcher that President Kennedy was on rolled into the room across the hall?

Miss Henchliffe. Yes.

Mr. Specter. And into which room was it rolled?

Miss Henchliffe. Room 2.

Mr. Specter. What was that?

Miss Henchliffe. Room 2.

Mr. Specter. Emergency room No. 2?

Miss Henchliffe. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. And, when it was rolled into emergency room 2, were the sheets still all on, or were they off at that time?

Miss Henchliffe. I believe they were off.

Mr. Specter. Is it possible that the stretcher that Mr. Kennedy was on was rolled with the sheets on it down into the area near the elevator?

Miss Henchliffe. No, sir.

Mr. Specter. Are you sure of that?

Miss Henchliffe. I am positive of that.

Mr. Specter. Have you anything to add that you think might be helpful to the Commission?

Miss Henchliffe. No, sir; I don't think of anything.

Mr. Specter. Did I talk to you about the purpose of the Commission and the same questions that I have been asking and the answers that you have been giving for a few minutes before the Court reporter came in to take this down in shorthand?

Miss Henchliffe. Yes.

Mr. Specter. And did you give me the same information at that time?

Miss Henchliffe. To the best of my ability.

Mr. Specter. Thank you very much for coming.

Miss Henchliffe. Okay.

(At this point the witness, Henchliffe, was thereupon excused from the deposing room.)

143 (In approximately 3 minutes thereafter the witness returned to the deposing room and the deposition continued as follows:)

Mr. Specter. Let me ask you a couple of questions more, Miss Henchliffe, one other question, or two, before you go.

Was the wound on the front of the neck surrounded by any blood?

Miss Henchliffe. No, sir.

Mr. Specter. Was there any blood at all in that area?

Miss Henchliffe. No, sir.

Mr. Specter. What was there about the wound, if you recall anything special, which gave you the impression it was an entrance wound?

Miss Henchliffe. Well, it was just a small wound and wasn't jagged like most of the exit bullet wounds that I have seen.

Mr. Specter. If there was a high-powered rifle, or a high-powered rifle was going at a fast speed, as fast as 2,000 feet per second, which encountered only soft tissue in the body, would you have sufficient knowledge to know whether or not the appearance of that hole would be consistent with an exit wound?

Miss Henchliffe. Well, from some information I received in talking to someone about guns later on, they said that this is possible. But you have a small exit wound—you could have a small exit wound.

Mr. Specter. Under what circumstances?

Miss Henchliffe. As you described—a very fast bullet that didn't hit anything but soft tissue going through.

Mr. Specter. And do you have any other source of information or basis for having an opinion whether it was an entrance wound or an exit wound other than that source of information you just described, plus your general experience here at Parkland as a nurse?

Miss Henchliffe. No, sir.

Mr. Specter. How long have you been at Parkland as a nurse?

Miss Henchliffe. Well, I have had emergency room experience for about 5 years here and a couple of years at Baylor Hospital.

Mr. Specter. And is that the total sum of your experience?

Miss Henchliffe. In the emergency room.

Mr. Specter. And what other experience have you had besides emergency room experience?

Miss Henchliffe. Well, in the operating room here.

Mr. Specter. How long have you had operating room experience here?

Miss Henchliffe. 3 years.

Mr. Specter. And how long have you been a registered nurse altogether?

Miss Henchliffe. 12 years—almost 12 years.

Mr. Specter. And what is the source of information about the appearance of an exit wound from a high-powered gun which you have just described?

Miss Henchliffe. I don't remember who I was talking to now. I was just talking to someone one day about gunshots and after this report came out that said that any high-powered gun that this could happen.

Mr. Specter. That it could be an exit wound which looked very much like an entrance wound with the missile striking nothing but soft tissue?

Miss Henchliffe. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. Do you have anything else to add?

Miss Henchliffe. No.

Mr. Specter. Thank you very much.

Miss Henchliffe. All right.


TESTIMONY OF DORIS MAE NELSON

The testimony of Doris Mae Nelson was taken on March 20, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. Specter. Mrs. Nelson, this is Miss Oliver, the court reporter, and will you raise your right hand and take the oath?

144 Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give in this proceeding will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mrs. Nelson. I do.

Mr. Specter. May the record show that Mrs. Doris Nelson is appearing to testify in this deposition proceeding conducted by the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy to provide whatever facts, if any, she may know concerning the treatment received by President Kennedy and Governor Connally at Parkland Memorial Hospital on November 22, 1963.

Mr. Specter. Will you state your full name for the record, please?

Mrs. Nelson. Doris Mae Nelson. Do you want my maiden name?

Mr. Specter. Fine, yes; what is your maiden name?

Mrs. Nelson. Morris, M-o-r-r-i-s [spelling].

Mr. Specter. Mrs. Nelson, have you had an opportunity to view the joint resolution of the 88th Congress and the Executive order which established the President's Commission?

Mrs. Nelson. Yes; I read it yesterday.

Mr. Specter. And have you had an opportunity to view the resolution of the President's Commission covering questioning of witnesses by members of the Commission staff?

Mrs. Nelson. Yes.

Mr. Specter. And are you willing to be questioned today concerning this matter, even though you have not had 3 days' notice?

Mrs. Nelson. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Therefore waiving the right which you have, a 3 days' notice under the resolution?

Mrs. Nelson. Yes.

Mr. Specter. What is your occupation or profession?

Mrs. Nelson. I am a registered nurse, supervisor of the emergency room at Parkland Memorial Hospital.

Mr. Specter. And how long have you been so occupied?

Mrs. Nelson. A year and 6 months as supervisor of the emergency room.

Mr. Specter. What were your duties in a general way on November 22, 1963?

Mrs. Nelson. I was primarily responsible for assigning personnel in the treatment of the injured patients and carrying out security measures with the Secret Service.

Mr. Specter. What notification, if any, did you receive on that date concerning injuries to President Kennedy?

Mrs. Nelson. I received a phone call approximately 3 to 5 minutes prior to their arrival, from the telephone operator, stating that the President had been shot and was being brought to the emergency room.

Mr. Specter. What action after that did you take in preparing for the President's arrival?

Mrs. Nelson. I immediately took the surgical resident into trauma room No. 1, notified him of the incident, and asked the—also told the head nurse that the President had been shot and was being brought to the emergency room.

Then, I went into trauma room 2, after the head nurse had told me that trauma room 1 was set up for any emergency, and proceeded to open a bottle of intravenous fluid and set it up for an emergency situation.

Mr. Specter. Did you know at that time that anyone else had been injured?

Mrs. Nelson. No; we were not notified as to anyone else being injured.

Mr. Specter. What occurred with respect to the arrival of any injured party at Parkland Memorial Hospital thereafter?

Mrs. Nelson. As I walked out of trauma room No. 2 I heard someone calling for stretchers and an orderly ran back into the area and got a stretcher and ran out of the door, and a few seconds later Governor Connally, who at that time I did not know who it was but recognized him as not being the President, arrived and I directed them into trauma room 2.

Mr. Specter. Did the orderly take out one stretcher, or was more than one stretcher taken out?

Mrs. Nelson. I do not know exactly how many stretchers were taken out at the time because I was not out at that area.

145 Mr. Specter. Did another stretcher come into the area?

Mrs. Nelson. Yes; immediately behind the Governor another stretcher was brought back into the emergency room and on this stretcher was President Kennedy.

Mr. Specter. How were you able to identify President Kennedy?

Mrs. Nelson. Well, I could look and see him and tell that it was him.

Mr. Specter. What part did you see?

Mrs. Nelson. The—mainly his head.

Mr. Specter. Was there any coat covering his face?

Mrs. Nelson. There was a coat thrown across the top of him, not completely covering his face, and Mrs. Kennedy—do you want me to tell about Mrs. Kennedy and the flowers?

Mr. Specter. Yes; continue. Yes; in answering the questions, Mrs. Nelson, feel perfectly free to make as full an answer to the question—I hesitate to have you stop, so that the record we make will appear continuous and everything may be recorded fully for our record purposes.

Mrs. Nelson. Mrs. Kennedy was walking beside the stretcher and the roses that she had been given at the airport were lying on top of the President and her hat was also lying on top of the President as he was brought into the emergency room.

Mr. Specter. Where was he then taken?

Mrs. Nelson. He was immediately taken into trauma room 1.

Mr. Specter. And who, if anyone, was present at that time to attend him in a medical way?

Mrs. Nelson. Dr. Carrico, a surgical resident was there at the time that he was brought in, and Dr. Perry, an associate professor of surgery arrived shortly thereafter, and several doctors arrived, Dr. Baxter, associate professor of surgery, Dr. Kemp Clark, professor of neurosurgery and chairman of the department; Dr. Bashour—

Mr. Specter. Spell, please.

Mrs. Nelson. B-a-s-h-o-u-r (spelling), chairman of the Department of Cardiology, and several other doctors who I cannot recall all the names at the present time.

Mr. Specter. Were you present inside of the emergency room where President Kennedy was taken?

Mrs. Nelson. When what?

Mr. Specter. Were you in there at the time they were treating him, caring for him at any time?

Mrs. Nelson. On one occasion I went into the room and this was mainly to ask Mrs. Kennedy if she had rather wait out in the hallway rather than in the room where they were treating the President, and I was told by the Secret Service agent that she may stay in there if she wished.

Mr. Specter. Is there any table, or was there any table in the emergency room to which President Kennedy was taken that he could be placed on from the stretcher?

Mrs. Nelson. No.

Mr. Specter. Is it the normal situation to have no table present in the emergency room?

Mrs. Nelson. The only one there is in case an ambulance should bring a patient in, but if a patient comes in the emergency room on a stretcher, then the stretcher that is in there is removed. Then the patient remains on the same stretcher that he comes into the emergency room on.

Mr. Specter. And was there a stretcher in the emergency room at the time President Kennedy was taken in on a second stretcher?

Mrs. Nelson. It was taken out when they wheeled it in.

Mr. Specter. Were there any sheets on the stretcher that President Kennedy was on?

Mrs. Nelson. Yes.

Mr. Specter. After President Kennedy was taken off of the stretcher, did you have occasion to observe that stretcher?

146 Mrs. Nelson. Yes; the stretcher was stripped by the nursing personnel working in the room and the stretcher was moved across from trauma room 1 to trauma room 2 in order to get the stretcher out of the room.

Mr. Specter. What personnel stripped the stretcher?

Mrs. Nelson. Margaret Henchliffe, H-e-n-c-h-l-i-f-f-e [spelling], and Diana Bowron, D-i-a-n-a B-o-w-r-o-n [spelling].

Mr. Specter. Did you actually observe Diana Bowron or Margaret Henchliffe strip the stretcher?

Mrs. Nelson. No; I did not. This was the report that I received afterwards.

Mr. Specter. From whom did you receive that report?

Mrs. Nelson. From these two nurses.

Mr. Specter. Did you see the stretcher after it was stripped in the emergency room to which President Kennedy was taken?

Mrs. Nelson. No, I saw it after it was wheeled from trauma room 1 to trauma room 2, because I was standing there at the doorway between the two rooms with the Secret Service Police.

Mr. Specter. But it was actually in trauma room 1?

Mrs. Nelson. Yes.

Mr. Specter. As it was being wheeled out to trauma room 2 and at the time it was being wheeled out, was there any sheet on it at all——

Mrs. Nelson. No.

Mr. Specter. Rolled up on it in any way at all?

Mrs. Nelson. No.

Mr. Specter. Did you see where the stretcher was then placed?

Mrs. Nelson. Yes, it was put into trauma room 2.

Mr. Specter. Where was President Kennedy's body at that time?

Mrs. Nelson. It was in—it had been placed in a casket in trauma room 1.

Mr. Specter. And was the casket on any sort of an object or was it on the floor or what?

Mrs. Nelson. It was on a form of roller-type table.

Mr. Specter. And did—do you know what President Kennedy's body was in, if anything, at that time?

Mrs. Nelson. Yes, one of the nurses, Miss Hutton, came out and said that the President was having extensive bleeding from the head and they had wrapped four sheets around it but it was still oozing through, so I sent her to the second floor to obtain a mattress cover, a plastic mattress cover, to put in the casket prior to putting his body in the casket, so the mattress cover was placed in the casket and I did not see this happen, but this is how it was explained to me by the nurse, and the plastic was placed on the mattress cover and the cover was around the mattress.

Mr. Specter. Which nurse explained that to you?

Mrs. Nelson. Miss Bowron and Miss Henchliffe.

Mr. Specter. And what was done with the sheets which had been used to absorb the blood from the President's body?

Mrs. Nelson. Well, there were approximately four sheets wrapped around him and the remaining sheets that were on the stretcher were pulled up and thrown in the linen hamper, according to Miss Bowron and Miss Henchliffe.

Mr. Specter. And where is that linen hamper located?

Mrs. Nelson. That linen hamper is located in the utility room area of the emergency room, which is just outside of the trauma room area.

Mr. Specter. And what floor is that on?

Mrs. Nelson. On the ground floor of the hospital.

Mr. Specter. What was done with Governor Connally?

Mrs. Nelson. Governor Connally was in the emergency room for a very short period, approximately 15 to 20 minutes, at which time he had chest tubes inserted, intravenous fluid started, anesthesia or oxygen given to him, and he was taken immediately from the emergency room to the operating room accompanied by several doctors.

Mr. Specter. Did you see him inside trauma room No. 2?

Mrs. Nelson. Yes; I did.

147 Mr. Specter. And did you observe him when he was taken out of trauma room No. 2?

Mrs. Nelson. Yes, I saw him when he went upstairs to the operating room.

Mr. Specter. And how did he get upstairs to the operating room?

Mrs. Nelson. On a stretcher carried by several of the doctors. Miss Standridge went in front, and opened doorways and went to the elevator. I could not see her at the elevator but this is what she told me.

Mr. Specter. How far could you see her?

Mrs. Nelson. Oh, approximately 30 feet.

Mr. Specter. And who is Miss Standridge?

Mrs. Nelson. Head nurse in the emergency room.

Mr. Specter. What is her first name?

Mrs. Nelson. Jeanette.

Mr. Specter. You say the stretcher was carried?

Mrs. Nelson. Well, it was wheeled.

Mr. Specter. And what does the stretcher look like that Governor Connally was on?

Mrs. Nelson. Well, there are no specific details, it's an average type of movable four-wheel stretcher, made out of metal, with a plastic mattress on the stretcher. It has an elevation between—on the sides, so that the—I don't know how to explain exactly.

Mr. Specter. A bumper-type effect?

Mrs. Nelson. It has a bumper on the side.

Mr. Specter. Is there a tray underneath the place where the body was resting?

Mrs. Nelson. Yes.

Mr. Specter. And is that the same general description of a stretcher that President Kennedy was brought in on?

Mrs. Nelson. Yes; they were the same type.

Mr. Specter. Mrs. Nelson, I'm going to show you a four-page statement which is marked "Activities of Doris Nelson, R.N., beginning 12 noon, Friday, November 22, 1963," after I ask that it be marked as an exhibit in connection with this deposition.

(Reporter marked the instrument referred to as Nelson Exhibit No. 1.)

Mr. Specter. Is this a photostatic copy of the statement which you gave to Mr. Jack Price, the administrator of the hospital, concerning your activities on November 22, 1963, as they pertain to this matter?

Mrs. Nelson. Yes; it is.

Mr. Specter. And are the facts set forth herein true and correct to the best of your knowledge, information and belief?

Mrs. Nelson. Yes; they are.

Mr. Specter. Did I meet with you for a few moments before we started this deposition and explain the purpose of the proceeding?

Mrs. Nelson. Yes; you did.

Mr. Specter. Did I ask you the same questions which we have discussed here during the course of my questioning before the court reporter?

Mrs. Nelson. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Thank you very much for providing this deposition to us.

Mrs. Nelson. You are quite welcome.

Mr. Specter. Off the record.

(Discussion off the record between Mr. Specter and the witness, Mrs. Doris Nelson.)

Mr. Specter. Back on the record, just a minute.

Mrs. Nelson, I will ask you if you would sign the end of this statement here, that it is your statement?

Mrs. Nelson. (Signed statement referred to.)

Mr. Specter. And are you willing to waive a requirement, if it is any formal requirement, as to the signing of this deposition?

Mrs. Nelson. Yes; I am.

Mr. Specter. Thank you very much.


148

TESTIMONY OF CHARLES JACK PRICE

The testimony of Charles Jack Price was taken at 4:50 p.m., on March 25, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. Specter. May the record show that C. Jack Price is present to have his deposition taken in connection with the inquiry of the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy, which is concerned with the medical care rendered at Parkland Memorial Hospital to President John F. Kennedy and to Governor John B. Connally.

Authorization has been obtained to take the deposition of Mr. Price and he has had access to the copy of the Executive order creating the President's Commission——

Mr. Price. Yes.

Mr. Specter. And the rules relating to the taking of depositions of witnesses. Is it satisfactory with you to have your deposition taken without having the 3-day waiting period between the request and the taking of the deposition?

Mr. Price. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Would you stand up, Mr. Price, and raise your right hand?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give before the President's Commission and in this deposition proceeding will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. Price. I do.

Mr. Specter. Would you state your full name for the record, please?

Mr. Price. Charles Jack Price.

Mr. Specter. And what is your official title here?

Mr. Price. Administrator, Dallas County Hospital district, comprised of Parkland Memorial Hospital and Woodlawn Hospital.

Mr. Specter. Mr. Price, in connection with your duties at Parkland Memorial Hospital, did you request that all of the individuals who participated in the care and treatment of President Kennedy and Governor Connally, or at least those who were principally concerned with that treatment, prepare and submit reports to you concerning that treatment?

Mr. Price. Yes; through Dr. Kemp Clark, who is chairman of our medical records committee.

Mr. Specter. And where have those records been kept after submission through Dr. Kemp Clark?

Mr. Price. The records were brought directly to my office. In fact, some of the records were written in my office and since that time have been kept in my custody, specifically under lock and key in my desk drawer.

Mr. Specter. I show you a document which has heretofore been marked as "Commission Exhibit No. 392," and I ask you if this constitutes all of the records of the doctors who examined and treated President Kennedy and Governor Connally which are in your possession, that is all the records which were made by the examining doctors?

Mr. Price. (Examining instrument referred to.) Do you want my comments as I go through this or do you want me to look through it and say "Yes," or "No"?

Mr. Specter. Yes; I would like to just be sure for the record that those are all of the records. You and I went through them the other day informally and at that time you supplemented my records to some extent, which I will put on the deposition record here.

Mr. Price. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Perhaps, before going to Commission Exhibit No. 392, permit me to have this photostatic copy marked Mr. Price's Exhibit No. 2.

(Instrument referred to marked by the reporter as Price Exhibit No. 2, for identification.)

Mr. Specter. And I ask you if this is a photostatic copy of a letter which was sent by Dr. Kemp Clark to Dr. Burkley, the President's private physician?

Mr. Price. It is.

149 Mr. Specter. And with that, the summary of all the treatments performed at Parkland, which was prepared by Dr. Kemp Clark?

Mr. Price. That's right.

Mr. Specter. And below that, another summary sheet which bears the corrected notation, with your signature over it, that the President arrived at the emergency room at exactly 12:38 p.m., with 12:43 scratched out?

Mr. Price. That's correct.

Mr. Specter. Now, as you move through your file, permit me to also ask the reporter to mark as Mr. Price's Exhibit No. 3, an affidavit of Ulah McCoy, and I'll ask you if that is a copy of an original in your file?

(Instrument referred to marked by the reporter as Price Exhibit No. 3, for identification.)

Mr. Price. Yes; it is.

Mr. Specter. And I will ask her to mark as Mr. Price Exhibit No. 4 an affidavit of Doris Nelson and I'll ask you if that is a copy of a report in your possession?

(Instrument referred to marked by the reporter as Price Exhibit No. 4, for identification.)

Mr. Price. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Your next report is one from Dr. M. T. Jenkins?

Mr. Price. Professor and chairman of the department of anesthesiology.

Mr. Specter. And is that a copy of the document which you are looking at here?

Mr. Price. It is.

Mr. Specter. As part of Exhibit 392?

Mr. Price. That's right, and my next one is the statement of Dr. W. Kemp Clark.

Mr. Specter. And is that the original of a copy of which appears in this group of papers as Exhibit No. 392?

Mr. Price. Yes; it is. The next one that I have is the statement of Dr. Perry.

Mr. Specter. And is that the original of a copy of a statement which appears in Exhibit 392?

Mr. Price. Yes; the statement of Dr. Charles W. Baxter.

Mr. Specter. Is that the original of a copy which appears in Exhibit 392?

Mr. Price. Yes; it is; that's the statement of Dr. Carrico.

Mr. Specter. And is this the copy of the original of Dr. Carrico's statement?

Mr. Price. Yes; it is; and this is Dr. McClelland's statement.

Mr. Specter. I now show you a photostatic copy of what purports to be Dr. McClelland's statement, and is that a copy of the original in your file?

Mr. Price. Yes; it is.

Mr. Specter. What is your next report?

Mr. Price. My next report is Dr. Bashour's report.

Mr. Specter. And I show you a sheet in the group of papers marked Exhibit 392, and ask you if that is a photostatic copy of the original in your file?

Mr. Price. Yes; it is.

Mr. Specter. And what is next?

Mr. Price. My next one is the summary of Dr. Ronald C. Jones.

Mr. Specter. Now, I'll ask you if this is a photostatic copy of the original of the statement by Dr. Ronald Jones which is in your file?

Mr. Price. May I see it, please?

Mr. Specter. Yes.

(Handed instrument referred to to the witness.)

Mr. Price. Yes; it is.

Mr. Specter. Now, does that constitute all of the original records concerning the treatment of President John F. Kennedy in your file?

Mr. Price. With one exception—there is in the file that I have of Governor Connally the original of the transcript of "Registration of patients," which I furnished you a photostat of, our number being 01811.

Mr. Specter. And is this a photostatic copy of that registration of patients?

150 Mr. Price. It is; and I think I reviewed it with you at the time I gave this to you—the transverse of patients No. 2 and No. 5.

Mr. Specter. No. 5 is marked John Connally and No. 2 is John F. Kennedy, and how should that have been marked?

Mr. Price. The first patient in the hospital was Governor Connally.

Mr. Specter. So, he should have been No. 2?

Mr. Price. So, he should have been No. 2 as shown on the transcript.

Mr. Specter. And the President should have been noted as No. 5?

Mr. Price. The President should have been noted as No. 5.

(Instrument referred to marked by the reporter as Price Exhibit No. 5, for identification.)

Mr. Price. The simultaneous arrival at the ambulance dock would not affect the time as shown in the corrected copy that I gave you of the arrival there.

Mr. Specter. Now, turn if you will, to the records on Governor Connally and I will ask you if as part of Commission Exhibit 392, we have photostatic copies of the operative records starting, first with the operation performed by Dr. Shaw.

Mr. Price. I have the original of that but this is the complete medical charts that I have here.

Mr. Specter. As to this report alone, do you have the original in that record?

Mr. Price. Here it is.

Mr. Specter. And is this an exact photocopy of the original report prepared by Dr. Robert Shaw, the original of which appears in your record on Governor Connally?

Mr. Price. It is.

Mr. Specter. Is this an exact photostatic copy of the report of Dr. Charles Gregory?

Mr. Price. There has been since this photostat was made and forwarded to you—Dr. Gregory, prior to signing the official copy, did make some pencil corrections, and I will be glad to have the original photostated or Xeroxed now and give you a corrected copy if you would like?

Mr. Specter. That would be fine, and perhaps it would be faster just to read those changes into our record here. However, let's pursue the line of getting a Xerox copy.

Now, turning to the report of Dr. Shires, is this a true and correct photostatic copy of Dr. Shires' report?

Mr. Price. It is; it is a correct copy.

Mr. Specter. Now, I show you a large group of papers which I am going to ask the reporter to mark Mr. Price Exhibits Nos. 6, 7, 8, and 9.

(Instruments referred to marked by the reporter as Price Exhibits Nos. 6, 7, 8, and 9, for identification.)

Mr. Specter. I now show you a group of papers, and as they are being marked, if you would take a look at them. Price Exhibit No. 6—I'll ask you if these are photostatic copies of reports which you have made available to me of originals which you have in your file made by various members of your staff, concerning the events of November 22, and November 24.

Mr. Price. Do you want these individually or as a group?

Mr. Specter. If you would identify the contents of the statement by the exhibit number which we have put on it, starting with the first numerical designation, would probably be the simplest. Exhibit 6 is what?

Mr. Price. Exhibit No. 6 is a Xerox copy of the floor plan of the emergency area. This is correct.

The Exhibit No. 7, the statement is unsigned, but this is the Xerox copy of the summary submitted to me by my assistant, Mr. Steve Landregan.

Mr. Specter. And what is his position with the hospital?

Mr. Price. He is assistant administrator.

Mr. Specter. In charge of press relations among other things?

Mr. Price. In charge of press relations among other things.

Mr. Specter. And what is Exhibit No. 8?

151 Mr. Price. Exhibit No. 8 is a Xerox copy of Peter Geilich's statement to me. Mr. Geilich is administrative assistant, with primary assignment over at the Woodlawn unit, and he is also the acting director of our outpatient clinic.

Mr. Specter. And what is Exhibit No. 9?

Mr. Price. Exhibit No. 9 is a summary of the activities of Robert Dutton, Bob Dutton, who is administrative assistant and is currently our evening administrator.

(Instruments marked as Price Exhibits Nos. 10 through 32 at this time, for identification.)

Mr. Specter. Exhibit 10 is what?

Mr. Price. Exhibit 10 is a summary of activities of Mrs. Carol Reddick, who is administrative aide.

Exhibit No. 11 is a summary of activities of Mrs. Elizabeth L. Wright, our director of nursing service.

Mr. Specter. What is Exhibit No. 12?

Mr. Price. Exhibit No. 12 is a summary of the activities of Diana Bowron, who is an emergency room nurse.

Mr. Specter. Exhibit No. 13?

Mr. Price. Exhibit No. 13 is a summary of the activities of Sallie Lennon.

Mr. Specter. What is her position?

Mr. Price. She is a nurse.

Mr. Specter. I hand you Price Exhibit No. 14.

Mr. Price. This is a statement of the activities of C. Watkins, who is an R.N. in the emergency room.

Mr. Specter. And I hand you Price Exhibit No. 15

Mr. Price. Exhibit No. 15 is a report of the activities of Faye Dean Shelby, and she is a nurse in the emergency room.

Mr. Specter. Price Exhibit No. 16?

Mr. Price. This is the activities of Era Lumpkin, an aide in the emergency area.

Mr. Specter. Price Exhibit No. 17?

Mr. Price. Exhibit No. 17 is a report on the activities of Jean Tarrant, who is an aide in the major medicine emergency room.

Mr. Specter. I now hand you Price Exhibit No. 18.

Mr. Price. Exhibit 18 is the activities of Frances Scott, who is assigned to the emergency room.

Mr. Specter. Exhibit No. 19?

Mr. Price. Exhibit No. 19 is the activities of Willie Haywood, who is an orderly in the emergency room.

Mr. Specter. I now hand you Price Exhibit No. 20.

Mr. Price. This is a summary of the activities of Bertha L. Lozano, who is a registered nurse in the emergency room.

Mr. Specter. Price Exhibit No. 21?

Mr. Price. Exhibit No. 21 is a summary of the activities of Pat Hutton, who is an aide in the emergency room.

Mr. Specter. I'll hand you Price Exhibit No. 22.

Mr. Price. I'm sorry, I said Hutton was an aide. She's an R.N.—in registration—a nurse.

Mr. Specter. And what is Exhibit No. 22?

Mr. Price. It is a summary of the activities of Shirley Randall, an aide in the emergency room.

Mr. Specter. And what is Price Exhibit No. 23?

Mr. Price. A summary of the activities of Rosa M. Majors, an aide in the emergency room.

Mr. Specter. And what is Price Exhibit 24?

Mr. Price. Price Exhibit 24 is a summary of the activities of Jill Pomeroy, who is a ward clerk in the emergency room.

Mr. Specter. And what is Price Exhibit No. 25?

Mr. Price. A summary of the activities of David Sanders, who is an orderly in the emergency room.

152 Mr. Specter. And what is Price Exhibit No. 26?

Mr. Price. Exhibit 26 is a summary of the activities of Tommy Dunn, who is an orderly in the emergency room.

Mr. Specter. And what is Price Exhibit No. 27?

Mr. Price. A summary of the activities of Joe Richards, an orderly in the emergency room.

Mr. Specter. And what is Price Exhibit No. 28?

Mr. Price. Exhibit No. 28 is a statement of the activities of Jeanette Standridge, an R.N. in the emergency room.

Mr. Specter. And what is Price Exhibit 29?

Mr. Price. A summary of the activities of O. P. Wright, who is the personnel director and a director of hospital security, and reports from the individual guards under his supervision.

Mr. Specter. And what is Price Exhibit No. 30?

Mr. Price. A summary of the activities of Margaret Henchliffe, who is assigned to the emergency room.

Mr. Specter. What is Price Exhibit No. 31?

Mr. Price. A summary of the activities of Doris Nelson, who is the emergency room supervisor.

Mr. Specter. And what is Price Exhibit No. 32?

Mr. Price. A summary of the activities of Robert G. Holcomb, who is assistant administrator in charge of correlating the professional services of the hospital.

Mr. Specter. What is Price Exhibit No. 33?

Mr. Price. This is a summary of my personal impressions of the events that transpired on November 24.

Mr. Specter. And what is Price Exhibit 34?

Mr. Price. This is a summary of my activities at the office Saturday and Sunday, the 23d and 24th.

Mr. Specter. Are those all of the summaries of those who made reports to you?

Mr. Price. Yes; they are. These are primarily the summaries of individuals who were involved in the care of our late President, in the care of Governor Connally, and in the care of Oswald, who were requested to make these summaries to my office as their activities would not normally be stated on patients' charts or in other records of the hospital.

Mr. Specter. I now hand you Price Exhibit No. 35 and ask you if that is a photostatic copy of the report of Dr. Charles Gregory, after it was altered in a few minor respects as shown on the face of the record?

Mr. Price. Well, if I may change this terminology?

Mr. Specter. Sure.

Mr. Price. This is a copy of Dr. Charles Gregory's records as it appears in Governor Connally's charts, which he corrected prior to signing the transcript. What I was trying to say, or wanted to make clear, was that frequently in transcribing, the medical secretaries who transcribe operative records, they make mistakes, and I wanted to be sure that there was no suggestion that the record was altered, when what Dr. Gregory has done was to write in corrections that were noticed at the time he read it and signed it.

Mr. Specter. I understand it was transcribed, and when he reviewed it before signing it he noticed inaccuracies in the transcription.

Mr. Price. That's right. This is correct. Your phraseology is much better than mine.

Mr. Specter. Thank you very much, Mr. Price.

Mr. Price. Thank you, sir.

Mr. Specter. That's all. I wanted to put all of these in the record, Jack, to show that they are duly authenticated by the appropriate custodian of the records.

Mr. Price. Well, I wanted to be sure that there was no hint that the record had been altered here.

Mr. Specter. Yes; I understand that. I think you are absolutely right on that. Thank you.

Mr. Price. All right. Thank you.


153

TESTIMONY OF MALCOLM O. COUCH

The testimony of Malcolm O. Couch was taken at 9:43 a.m., on April 1, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. Belin. Will you please rise and raise your right hand and be sworn, sir?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you're about to give will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. Couch. I do.

Mr. Belin. Be seated, please.

Mr. Belin. You are Malcolm O. Couch?

Mr. Couch. That's right.

Mr. Belin. Mr. Couch, we are taking your deposition here in Dallas to record your testimony for the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy—is that correct?

Mr. Couch. That's right, sir.

Mr. Belin. Do you request that an attorney be present here to represent you?

Mr. Couch. No.

Mr. Belin. We have written you about the taking of this deposition and I assume that you have waived notice of the taking of the deposition—is that correct?

Mr. Couch. That's right.

Mr. Belin. Mr. Couch, you have the right to look at the deposition and sign it, or you can follow the general custom and rely on the court reporter and waive the signing of the deposition—whatever you would like to do. If you would like to sign it, you can; if you want to waive signing it, you can also. Whatever you want to do.

Mr. Couch. All right. I'll sign it.

Mr. Belin. You want to sign it?

Mr. Couch. Yes, sir.

Mr. Belin. All right.

Mr. Couch, where do you live?

Mr. Couch. 4215 Live Oak in Dallas.

Mr. Belin. And how old are you?

Mr. Couch. Twenty-five.

Mr. Belin. And were you born in Texas?

Mr. Couch. Yes; born in Dallas and raised in Dallas.

Mr. Belin. And what is your educational background? Did you go through high school?

Mr. Couch. I went to Woodrow Wilson High School here in Dallas, I have a Bachelor of Arts degree from John Brown University; and I will receive a Master of Theology degree this May from Dallas Seminary.

Mr. Belin. You then plan, when you receive your Master of Theology degree, to become a minister?

Mr. Couch. I will be ordained. I don't know if I will have a church or not, but I will be ordained.

Mr. Belin. Are you married, Mr. Couch?

Mr. Couch. Yes.

Mr. Belin. Any family at all?

Mr. Couch. Yes; one boy—since last Friday.

Mr. Belin. Since last Friday? Well, congratulations to you. I assume your wife and baby are doing well?

Mr. Couch. Yes, sir.

Mr. Belin. What did you major in at college?

Mr. Couch. Social science.

Mr. Belin. What is your present occupation, Mr. Couch?

Mr. Couch. Part-time television news cameraman with WFAA-TV in Dallas.

154 Mr. Belin. When you say "part time," do you mean you're going to school part time——

Mr. Couch. Right.

Mr. Belin. And spending part time with WFAA-TV?

Mr. Couch. Right.

Mr. Belin. How long have you been employed by WFAA-TV?

Mr. Couch. Uh—for 2 years straight. But I worked with them full and part time, I believe, back in—starting in 1955 to 1957.

Mr. Belin. And then what happened in 1957?

Mr. Couch. I went to college.

Mr. Belin. You went to college full time?

Mr. Couch. Right.

Mr. Belin. And then you got out in 1961?

Mr. Couch. I got out in January 1960.

Mr. Belin. January 1960?

Mr. Couch. Yes—and came back to Dallas and went into graduate school here.

Mr. Belin. And when you came back to Dallas, you went to work with WFAA-TV?

Mr. Couch. No; no. I began going to Dallas Seminary, but—uh—I worked for Keitz & Herndon Film Studios—[spelling] K-e-i-t-z and H-e-r-n-d-o-n.

Mr. Belin. Have you had any other jobs since you've gotten out of college other than those?

Mr. Couch. I worked a year for Camp Elhar, as executive director of the camp. It's a Christian camp here in Dallas.

Mr. Belin. Is this for youngsters?

Mr. Couch. Right.

Mr. Belin. Boys and girls?

Mr. Couch. Right.

Mr. Belin. And when did that employment take place?

Mr. Couch. Uh—I believe it was September 1961—and ended in September 1962. I started working for WFAA in March of 1962. And I've been there 2 years.

Mr. Belin. In other words, part of the time while you were working with this camp, you were also part time with WFAA-TV?

Mr. Couch. Right.

Mr. Belin. And then when you started to work on your Masters in Theology, you stopped working?

Mr. Couch. No. I started work on my Masters when I came back from college——

Mr. Belin. Oh, I see.

Mr. Couch. In January of 1960. It's a 4-year course.

Mr. Belin. I see.

Mr. Couch, I want to take you back to November 22, 1963, and ask you whether or not you were employed by WFAA-TV at that time?

Mr. Couch. Yes; I was.

Mr. Belin. In connection with your employment, what is the fact as to whether or not you had anything to do with the coverage of the visit of President Kennedy to Dallas?

Mr. Couch. Yes; I did.

Mr. Belin. Could you just state what your duties were and what you did that day?

Mr. Couch. I was assigned to cover the arrival of the President at the airport and to ride in the motorcade through town and, then, to ride with the motorcade of the President back to the airport when he left.

Mr. Belin. Now, when you were assigned, were you assigned as a reporter, as a photographer, or in what capacity?

Mr. Couch. As a photographer.

Mr. Belin. Would this be moving picture film or still shots, or both?

Mr. Couch. Moving only.

Mr. Belin. Moving picture film only?

155 Mr. Couch. Yes.

Mr. Belin. Were you at Love Field in Dallas when the President arrived?

Mr. Couch. That's right; uh-huh.

Mr. Belin. Did you take moving pictures of him there?

Mr. Couch. That's right.

Mr. Belin. Then you got in the motorcade?

Mr. Couch. Right; uh-huh.

Mr. Belin. And the motorcade proceeded, first, from Love Field toward downtown Dallas—is that correct?

Mr. Couch. That's right.

Mr. Belin. Do you remember the route you took through downtown Dallas?

Mr. Couch. Uh—roughly. It was out through the airport parkway to Mockingbird Lane to Lemmon, down Lemmon to Turtle Creek, down Turtle Creek to—uh—I'm not sure of those streets. I think McKinney or Cedar Springs. I'm not sure.

Mr. Belin. Well, if you aren't particularly sure—okay. What about when you got downtown to the center of Dallas? Do you remember what streets you went on?

Mr. Couch. Yes. Well, we came in on Harwood and then turned right on Main at the City Hall.

Mr. Belin. And then you took Main to where?

Mr. Couch. Main down to—uh—Houston.

Mr. Belin. All right. You were heading, now, west on Main down to Houston?

Mr. Couch. Right.

Mr. Belin. About where in the motorcade was your car? Do you remember offhand?

Mr. Couch. Uh-uh—roughly—and I'm not sure—the fifth or sixth car back from the lead car. I'm not sure which one.

Mr. Belin. Now, do you remember, as you approached Houston Street on Main about how fast the motorcade was going?

Mr. Couch. I would estimate—uh—20 miles an hour. The speed had picked up some. Everyone gave a sigh a relief that—uh—it was over; and one of the cameramen, I remember, his camera broke and another one was out of film. Everyone was relaxed. And—uh—of course, then we turned north on Houston, and it was there that we heard the first gunshot.

Mr. Belin. All right. Before we get to the first gunshot—do you remember who was riding in the car with you?

Mr. Couch. Uh—an best I can, it was Jimmy Darnell—Channel 5: uh—Bob Jackson—Times Herald; Jim Underwood—KRLD-TV; and the fellow—uh—Mr. Dillard—Tom Dillard—Dallas Morning News. And the driver of the car; I don't know his name.

Mr. Belin. Were you sitting in the front or the back seat?

Mr. Couch. Sitting in the back.

Mr. Belin. Do you remember anything about your position as to the way you were sitting in the back?

Mr. Couch. Yes; I was almost in the middle and sitting on the—it was a convertible—and sitting on the back of the back seat, with my feet on the seat.

Mr. Belin. Your feet were on the seat—and you would be sitting on the top of the back seat?

Mr. Couch. That's right.

Mr. Belin. There were three of you in the back?

Mr. Couch. Yes; three in the back.

Mr. Belin. And were you in the middle or to the right or to the left?

Mr. Couch. I was about in the middle.

Mr. Belin. All right. Now, as you turned north on Houston, do you remember about how fast you were going?

Mr. Couch. Well, I'd say still that—of course, allowing for the turn—that the pace of the motorcade was about the same. We were clipping along and, as I said, I do have films after we had turned the other corner, and you could still see that the motorcade was moving fairly fast.

156 Mr. Belin. Were there any motorcycle policemen riding alongside the motorcade, that you remember?

Mr. Couch. Yes; there were.

Mr. Belin. Do you remember the names of any of those people?

Mr. Couch. No; I don't.

Mr. Belin. Were they two-wheel or three-wheel motorcycles?

Mr. Couch. Two-wheel.

Mr. Belin. Was there one riding alongside of your car?

Mr. Couch. Uh—he was. I remember distinctly one was on my right going down Main. They would jockey from time to time in different positions. As I recall, on Houston, I don't remember any beside us on Houston. As I say, they would fade back and forth. Sometimes they would be; sometimes they wouldn't.

Mr. Belin. All right.

Now, as you turned onto Houston, you said that you heard what you described as a——

Mr. Couch. It sounded like a motorcycle backfire at first—the first time we heard it—the first shot.

Mr. Belin. Do you remember about where your car was at the time you heard the first noise?

Mr. Couch. I would say—uh—15 or 20 feet from the turn—from off of Main onto Houston.

Mr. Belin. Fifteen or 20 feet from the turn?

Mr. Couch. We had already completed the turn.

Mr. Belin. After you had completed the turn, then 15 or 20 feet further on you heard the first shot—the first noise?

Mr. Couch. Because, I remember I was talking and we were laughing and I was looking back to a fellow on my—that would be on my right—I don't know who it was—we were joking. We had just made the turn. And I heard the first shot.

Mr. Belin. What happened—or what did anyone say?

Mr. Couch. As I recall, nothing—there was no particular reaction; uh—nothing unusual. Maybe everybody sort of looked around a little, but didn't think much of it. And—uh—then, in a few seconds, I guess from 4–5 seconds later, or even less, we heard the second shot. And then we began to look—uh, not out of thinking necessarily it was a gunshot, but we began to look in front of us—in the motorcade in front of us. And, as I recall, I didn't have any particular fears or feelings at the second shot. By the third shot, I felt that it was a rifle. Almost sure it was. And, as I said, the shots or the noises were fairly close together they were fairly even in sound—and—uh, by then, one could recognize, or if he had heard a high-powered rifle, he would feel that it was a high-powered rifle. You would get that impression.

Mr. Belin. Do you remember where your vehicle was by the time you heard the third shot?

Mr. Couch. I'd say we were about 50 feet from making—or maybe 60 feet—from making the left-hand turn onto Elm.

Mr. Belin. Did you hear more than three shots?

Mr. Couch. No.

Mr. Belin. Had you heard any noises, what you'd describe like a motorcycle backfiring or firecrackers, prior to the time that you made your turn north onto Houston?

Mr. Couch. Well, way uptown on Main Street, a motorcycle did backfire right beside us—and we all jumped and had a good laugh over it. And the three shots sounded, at first—the first impression was that this was another motorcycle backfiring.

Mr. Belin. Now, between the first and the second shots, is there anything else you remember doing or you remember hearing or seeing that you haven't related here at this time?

Mr. Couch. Nothing unusual between the shots. Uh—as I say, the first shot, I had no particular impression; but the second shot, I remember turning—several of us turning—and looking ahead of us. It was unusual for a motorcycle to backfire that close together, it seemed like. And after the third shot, Bob157 Jackson, who was, as I recall, on my right, yelled something like, "Look up in the window! There's the rifle!"

And I remember glancing up to a window on the far right, which at the time impressed me as the sixth or seventh floor, and seeing about a foot of a rifle being—the barrel brought into the window.

I saw no one in that window—just a quick 1-second glance at the barrel.

Mr. Belin. In what building was that?

Mr. Couch. This was the Texas Book Depository Building.

Mr. Belin. At the corner of Houston and Elm in Dallas?

Mr. Couch. That's right.

Mr. Belin. You said it was the sixth or the seventh floor. Do you know how many floors there are in that building—or did you know at that time?

Mr. Couch. No; I didn't know at that time.

Mr. Belin. Did it look like to you he was on the top floor or next to the top floor or the second to the top floor—or——

Mr. Couch. It looked like it was the top. And when you first glance at the building, you're thrown off a little as to the floors because there's a ridge—uh, it almost looks like a structure added onto the top of the building, about one story above. So, you have to recount.

Of course, at the time, I wasn't counting, but——

Mr. Belin. You just remember, to the best of your recollection, that it was either the sixth or seventh floor?

Mr. Couch. That's right.

Mr. Belin. And when you say, "the far right"——

Mr. Couch. That would be the far east.

Mr. Belin. The far east of what side of the building?

Mr. Couch. The south side of the building.

Mr. Belin. Do you remember whether or not that window at which you saw the rifle, you say, being withdrawn—first of all, could you tell it was a rifle?

Mr. Couch. Yes, I'd say you could. Uh—if a person was just standing on the—as much as I saw, if the factors that did happen, did not happen, you might not say that it was a rifle. In other words, if you just saw an object being pulled back into a window, you wouldn't think anything of it. But with the excitement intense right after that third shot and what Bob yelled, my impression was that it was a rifle.

Mr. Belin. Did you see anything more than a steel barrel of a rifle?

Mr. Couch. No.

Mr. Belin. Could you tell whether or not the rifle had any telescopic sight on it?

Mr. Couch. No.

Mr. Belin. Did you see any of the stock of the rifle?

Mr. Couch. No.

Mr. Belin. Did you see any person pulling the rifle?

Mr. Couch. No.

Mr. Belin. Do you remember whether or not, if you can remember, the window was open or halfway open or what?

Mr. Couch. It was open. To say that it was half or three-quarters open, I wouldn't say. My impression was that it was all the way open—but that was an impression.

Mr. Belin. Did you see anything else in the window that you remember—any boxes or anything like that?

Mr. Couch. No; I didn't.

Mr. Belin. You didn't notice whether there was or was not—or do you definitely remember that you did not notice any?

Mr. Couch. No; I didn't notice anything.

Mr. Belin. Did you see any other people in any other windows in the building?

Mr. Couch. Yes; I recall seeing—uh—some people standing in some of the other windows—about, roughly, third or fourth floor in the middle of the south side. I recall one—it looked like a Negro boy with a white T-shirt leaning out one of those windows looking up—up to the windows up above him.

Mr. Belin. Uh-huh. Is there anything else you can remember about the building?

158 Mr. Couch. No; that's just about the only impression I had at the moment.

Mr. Belin. Now, you related what you heard Bob Jackson say. Did anyone else say anything in the car?

Mr. Couch. No one else said anything, that I recall, about a rifle, or anything.

Mr. Belin. Where was the car when you saw this rifle being withdrawn?

Mr. Couch. I'd say about 25 feet before we made the turn onto Elm. Our car was facing the south side of the building.

Mr. Belin. All right. Then what happened after Bob Jackson made his exclamation and you saw what you just related?

Mr. Couch. Well, I picked up my camera. As I recall, I had it in my hand, but it was down leaning against my legs. And I picked it up and made a quick glance at a setting and raised it to my eye. And—uh—you can see from my film that we're just turning the corner. We start the turn and we turn the corner, and you can see people running. As I recall, there's a quick glance at the front entrance of the Texas Depository Book Building. You can see people running and you can see about the first three cars, maybe four, in front of me as we complete the turn.

And then I took pictures of—uh—a few people on my left and a group, or a sweeping, of the crowd on my right standing on the corner.

Mr. Belin. Did you take any pictures of the School Book Depository Building itself?

Mr. Couch. Not of the south side at that moment.

After we went, say, 50 to 75 feet on down Elm, uh—we began to hang on because the driver picked up speed. We got down under the—I think there's three trestles there, three crossings underneath the—uh—at the very bottom of Elm Street——

Mr. Belin. Is that what they call the triple-underpass?

Mr. Couch. Right.

And—uh—I think, as I recall, right after we'd made the turn on Elm, one or two of the fellows jumped out. But after we got all the way down underneath the three trestles we finally persuaded the driver—who wasn't too anxious to stop—to stop and—uh—we all jumped out.

And I ran, I guess it was about 75 yards or a little more back up to the School Depository Building and took some sweeping pictures of the crowd standing around. I didn't stay there long.

Mr. Belin. Did you take any pictures of the Depository Building entrance?

Mr. Couch. No—uh——

Mr. Belin. When you came back up there?

Mr. Couch. Not with determination. I cannot recall at this moment whether some of my pictures I took when I ran back might have a sweeping shot of the entrance through a wide angle lens. But not with determination. I didn't plan to take pictures of it.

Mr. Belin. Would these shots—these wide angle lens shots, if anyone were standing in front of the building or leaving the building at that time, would you be able to identify them, or would they be too far away?

Mr. Couch. They would be too far away. Possibly if the frames were blown up, one might determine if someone was standing there—identify someone.

Mr. Belin. About how many minutes after the last shot would you say you came back to take these pictures?

Mr. Couch. Well, I'd say it took me—uh—maybe a minute and a half to get back to there after this third shot—because we weren't but seconds getting down underneath that underpass after we made the turn.

Mr. Belin. Uh-huh.

Mr. Couch. And—uh—I jumped out and ran back. So, I'd say not over a minute and a half.

Mr. Belin. And then you started taking general sweeping shots of the area?

Mr. Couch. Right.

Mr. Belin. Were most of the shots directed at people along the side there as to what their reactions were, or were most of the shots directed at the School Book Depository Building?

Mr. Couch. Mostly of the people standing around, the policemen and shots such as this.

159 Mr. Belin. In what direction, generally, would the camera have been pointed, and where would you have been standing when you took these pictures?

Mr. Couch. Some of the pictures, I remember, the camera was pointing south—because I was standing on the little knoll which is just at the foot and west of the Depository Building, where the little park area begins. There's a sidewalk that runs between the Book Depository property, I would assume and the park. And I was standing on that little sidewalk.

Mr. Belin. And your camera was pointing south?

Mr. Couch. Pointing south. That's right. Now, after I had taken I don't know how many feet of film of people standing around, I—uh—we—I think there was one or two other fellows with me and who they were, now, I can't remember; they were photographers—we stopped a car that was going by with a boy in it—a young boy of about high school age—and asked him to take us out to Parkland. And as the car started off, I started my camera and I have a sweeping shot moving west from about—uh—maybe the middle of the Book Depository Building from ground level on past the park area—a sweeping shot with the car moving.

Mr. Belin. And that's about it insofar as the School Book Depository Building is concerned?

Mr. Couch. Well, no. After we got out to Stemmons—they'd set up a roadblock just as you entered Stemmons Expressway.

Mr. Belin. Uh-huh.

Mr. Couch. We jumped out of the car and I took, I believe it was, a 2-inch lens shot of the Book Depository Building of the west wall.

Mr. Belin. Of the west wall?

Mr. Couch. Yes.

Mr. Belin. Not of the front entrance?

Mr. Couch. No.

Mr. Belin. Is there any particular reason, Mr. Couch, why you didn't take your first pictures of the School Book Depository Building itself when you say you saw a rifle being withdrawn?

Mr. Couch. Well, uh—as best I can recall, the excitement on the ground of people running and policemen "revving" up their motorcycles—and I have a real nice shot of a policeman running toward me with his pistol drawn—the activity on the ground kept my attention. The reason I did not stay and take pictures of the Depository Building—which I had originally intended to do when I got out of the motorcade—was that—uh—another cameraman from our station, A. J. L'Hoste—[spelling] L-'-H-o-s-t-e—he came running up and—uh—when he ran up, why I said, "You stay here and get shots of the building and go inside—and I'm going to go back—I'm going to follow the President."

Mr. Belin. All right. Was he also a moving picture cameraman?

Mr. Couch. Yes; right.

Mr. Belin. Where was he at the time you made this statement?

Mr. Couch. Uh—he was standing on that little sidewalk that runs between the—I met him on the little sidewalk between the Book Depository property and the beginning of the parkway.

Mr. Belin. That would be the west side of the Depository Building?

Mr. Couch. That's right; that's right. It's there that I saw the blood on the sidewalk.

Mr. Belin. All right. Now, you say you saw blood on the sidewalk, Mr. Couch?

Mr. Couch. That's right.

Mr. Belin. Where was that?

Mr. Couch. This was the little walkway—steps and walkway that leads up to the corner, the west corner, the southwest corner of the Book Depository Building. Another little sidewalk, as I recall, turns west and forms that little parkway and archway right next to the Book Depository Building.

Mr. Belin. Did this appear to be freshly created blood?

Mr. Couch. Yes; right.

Mr. Belin. About how large was this spot of blood that you saw?

Mr. Couch. Uh—from 8 to 10 inches in diameter.

Mr. Belin. Did people around there say how it happened to get there, or not?

160 Mr. Couch. No; no one knew. People were watching it—that is, watching it carefully and walking around it and pointing to it.

Uh—just as I ran up, policemen ran around the west corner and ran—uh—northward on the side of the building. And my first impression was that—uh—that they had chased someone out of the building around that corner, or possibly they had wounded someone. All the policemen had their pistols pulled. And people were pointing back around those shrubs around that west corner and—uh—you would think that there was a chase going on in that direction.

Again, the reason that I didn't follow was because A. J. had come up, and my first concern was to get back with the President.

Mr. Belin. This pool of blood—about how far would it have been north of the curbline of Elm Street as Elm Street goes to the expressway?

Mr. Couch. I'd say—uh—well, from Elm Street, you mean, itself?

Mr. Belin. Yes. This is from that part of Elm Street that goes into the expressway?

Mr. Couch. I'd say—uh—50 to 60 feet, and about 15 feet or 10 to 15 feet from the corner of the Texas Depository Building.

Mr. Belin. It would have been somewhere along that park area there?

Mr. Couch. Right.

Mr. Belin. Was there anything else you noticed by this pool of blood?

Mr. Couch. No. There were no objects on the ground. We looked for something. We thought there would be something else, but——

Mr. Belin. There was nothing?

Mr. Couch. Huh-uh.

Mr. Belin. Now, this A. J.——?

Mr. Couch. L'Hoste. That's "L" apostrophe.

Mr. Belin. Yes; I have that. I have made a note of the spelling, along with the phonetic sound.

Do you know if he got any pictures of the south side of the School Book Depository?

Mr. Couch. No; I don't recall what he got—as I recall—now, I may be wrong, this is a guess—that he did not take any pictures.

Mr. Belin. He did not take any?

Mr. Couch. No.

Mr. Belin. Do you know of anyone that took any pictures of the south side of the School Book Depository Building, particularly the front entrance of the building, shortly after the assassination?

Dr. Couch. No; only what I have seen in Time magazine.

Mr. Belin. Only what you've seen in Time magazine?

Mr. Couch. Right.

Mr. Belin. Now, did you ever know or hear of Lee Harvey Oswald before any of this?

Mr. Couch. No.

Mr. Belin. Have you ever met Jack Ruby?

Mr. Couch. No.

Mr. Belin. There is an FBI report that states that you had heard hearsay statements that someone had seen Jack Ruby emerge from the rear of the Texas School Book Depository Building around that time. Did anyone ever tell you that?

Mr. Couch. Yes. Uh—where I first heard it, I could not now recall; but—uh—the story went that—uh—Wes Wise, who works for KRLD——

Mr. Belin. TV?

Mr. Couch. Yes—saw him moments after the shooting—how many moments, I don't know—5 minutes, 10 minutes—coming around the side of the building, coming around the east side going south, I presume.

Mr. Belin. Did you ever talk to Wes Wise as to whether or not he actually saw this, or is this just hearsay?

Mr. Couch. No; I didn't. This is just hearsay.

Mr. Belin. Let me ask you this: Is there any observation, other than hearsay, that you have about this entire sequence of events that you have not related here?

161 Mr. Couch. No; I can't think of anything. No.

Mr. Belin. In this same FBI report of an interview with you, it states that—and by the way, I did not show this to you when you first chatted about this—is that correct?

Mr. Couch. Uh-huh; that's right.

Mr. Belin. There is a statement as to the time sequence—that you heard, first, two loud noises about 10 seconds apart. And you related here that it would have been 5 seconds apart or less. Do you remember whether or not at the time you gave your first statement to the FBI you said 10 seconds or would you have said about 10 seconds or would you have said less than 10 seconds—or could this be inaccurate, as sometimes happens?

Mr. Couch. I don't recall now. Ten seconds is not a reasonable time; even if I said "about 10 seconds." I know a little bit more about timing than that. We have to time our stories pretty close—and that's a long time.

Mr. Belin. And what's your best recollection now as to the amount of time between shots?

Mr. Couch. Well, I would say the longest time would be 5 seconds, but it could be from 3 to 5.

Mr. Belin. And would this be true between the first and the second shots as well as between the second and third—or would there have been a difference?

Mr. Couch. As I recall, the time sequence between the three were relatively the same.

Mr. Belin. Now, Mr. Couch, shortly before we commenced taking this deposition, you and I met for the first time. Is that correct?

Mr. Couch. That's correct.

Mr. Belin. And then we came to this room and we chatted for a few minutes before we started taking a formal deposition. Is that correct?

Mr. Couch. That's correct.

Mr. Belin. Now, is there anything that we talked about pertaining to the assassination that in any way differs or conflicts with the testimony that you have just given?

Mr. Couch. No; no.

Mr. Belin. What is the fact as to whether or not I questioned you in great detail about each question or whether or not I just asked you to relate the story to me?

Mr. Couch. You asked me to give general highlight impressions before we began.

Mr. Belin. And then, after you gave those to me, we started taking the deposition—is that correct?

Mr. Couch. That's correct.

Mr. Belin. And then you repeated on the deposition what we had talked about—is that right?

Mr. Couch. That's right—in more detail.

Mr. Belin. Is there anything else that you can think of at this time which, in any way, would affect the investigation of the assassination of President Kennedy?

Mr. Couch. No; I cannot think of anything.

Mr. Belin. Well, we want to thank you very much for taking your time to come down here. We know that you're a busy man. We also would like you to convey our thanks to station WFAA-TV for allowing you to come down here. We appreciate it very much.

Mr. Couch. Thank you, sir.

Mr. Belin. Mr. Couch, we're going back on the record again. You're still under oath—and I'm not quite sure whether I asked this question, but I had better ask it again.

When you saw this rifle being withdrawn. About how much of it could you see at first?

Mr. Couch. I'd say just about a foot of it.

Mr. Belin. And in what direction was the barrel pointing at the time you saw it being withdrawn?

Mr. Couch. Approximately a 45 angle westward—which would be pointing down Elm Street.

162 Mr. Belin. Down Elm Street as it goes into the expressway there?

Mr. Couch. That's right.

Mr. Belin. And when you say "45 angle" would that be up or down, or are you referring to the angle of incline, or the angle of west and south?

Mr. Couch. The angle of incline—from a horizontal position.

Mr. Belin. All right. So, you would estimate about a 45 angle downward pointing in what would be a southwesterly direction?

Mr. Couch. Uh—westerly direction. From looking straight on at the building, one could not tell the—uh—angle, whether it was more southward or not. In other words, something sticking out the building, I couldn't tell. It was not—it did not appear to me that it was sticking straight out the window, so to speak.

Mr. Belin. Yes. Is there anything else that you noticed about the gun?

Mr. Couch. No.

Mr. Belin. All right. Thank you. I just wanted to make sure I got that on the record.


TESTIMONY OF TOM C. DILLARD

The testimony of Tom C. Dillard was taken at 9:15 a.m., on April 1, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. Ball. State your name.

Mr. Dillard. Tom C. Dillard.

Mr. Ball. Will you stand and raise your right hand, please?

Mr. Dillard (Complying).

Mr. Ball. Do you solemnly swear the testimony given before this Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. Dillard. I do.

Mr. Ball. My name is Joseph A. Ball. I am staff counsel for the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy. You have already been requested to be present have you not——

Mr. Dillard. By letter; yes.

Mr. Ball. By letter which you received last week?

Mr. Dillard. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. What is your occupation?

Mr. Dillard. I am a photographer.

Mr. Ball. I might state the purpose of questioning you is to ask you questions as to any knowledge you might have as to the facts concerning the assassination of President Kennedy on November 22, 1963, at Dallas, Tex.

Mr. Dillard. I understand. My occupation is journalist; I am chief photographer of the Dallas Morning News, do some aviation writing but my primary job is head of the photographic department and, of course, I do outside work for the paper on photographic work.

Mr. Ball. How old are you?

Mr. Dillard. I'm 49.

Mr. Ball. What has been your general education?

Mr. Dillard. High school, very few college courses.

Mr. Ball. What?

Mr. Dillard. High school and very few college courses.

Mr. Ball. Where did you go to school?

Mr. Dillard. I didn't go to school. I graduated Fort Worth, from the old Central High School, went to the Officer Candidate School in the Military and Air University.

Mr. Ball. How long have you been with the paper?

Mr. Dillard. The Dallas News since 1947 and I was with the Star Telegram, went to work in 1929.

Mr. Ball. Have you been a photographer for the papers all these years?

163 Mr. Dillard. Well, yes; of course, the first years, when I was started at the age of 15, I was a copy boy and did various reporting and whatever we could do on the paper. I was 15 when I started.

Mr. Ball. On November 22, you were in the motorcade who followed President Kennedy, weren't you?

Mr. Dillard. That is correct. I understand our car was about number six in the line.

Mr. Ball. Did you meet the President at Love Field?

Mr. Dillard. That's right.

Mr. Ball. And then you rode in the motorcade from Love Field into Dallas?

Mr. Dillard. Right.

Mr. Ball. Who was in your car?

Mr. Dillard. I remember Jim Underwood, he's an announcer for KRLD-TV and cameraman, acting as a cameraman that day; and Bob Jackson of the Times-Herald, cameraman; and Couch with our TV station, Channel 8, and did you have information his name is Couch?

Mr. Ball. That's right; and the man that drove——

Mr. Dillard. Channel 5—Darnell, I think his name is, and the driver of the car which I don't believe I remember his name. It was a Chevrolet convertible.

Mr. Ball. Your car was about sixth, was it?

Mr. Dillard. I believe.

Mr. Ball. From the President's car?

Mr. Dillard. From the President's car. We lost our position out at the airport. I understood we were supposed to have been quite a bit closer. We were assigned as the prime photographic car which, as you probably know, normally a truck precedes the President on these things and certain representatives of the photographic press ride with the truck. In this case, as you know, we didn't have any and this car that I was in was to take any photographs which was of spot-news nature.

Mr. Ball. As you turned from Main Street onto Houston, was the President's car in sight at that time?

Mr. Dillard. No; and the whole parade, the whole trip to town, I could only distinguish the President's car on very few occasions in high rises in the ground, when we got on hills. It was difficult because the people in the cars ahead of me were sitting on the backs of cars which pretty well covered the President's car for me. We had a very, very poor view of the President's car at any time from the time the parade started.

Mr. Ball. Can you tell me whether or not the President's car had made the turn off Houston Street when your car turned north on Houston?

Mr. Dillard. It had.

Mr. Ball. It had?

Mr. Dillard. No; I won't say it had. I think it had because, like I say, I could never see the car very well. I believe it had.

Mr. Ball. Where were you sitting in the car?

Mr. Dillard. I was sitting in the right front.

Mr. Ball. Who was in the front seat with you?

Mr. Dillard. Oh, I don't remember; I think Jackson was sitting beside me—no; I believe Jackson was sitting in the back. I don't remember what our locations were.

Mr. Ball. But you know you were in the right front?

Mr. Dillard. Yeah.

Mr. Ball. Did you hear something unusual as you were driving north on Houston?

Mr. Dillard. Yes; I heard an explosion which I made the comment that I believe, in my memory, I believe I said, "My God, they've thrown a torpedo" and why I said "torpedo", I don't know. If you wish, I'll go ahead——

Mr. Ball. Go ahead with your story.

Mr. Dillard. Well, then I later estimated, immediately later, estimated, oh, 4, about 3 or 4 seconds, another explosion and my comment was, "No, It's heavy rifle fire," and I remember very distinctly I said, "It's very heavy rifle fire."

164 Mr. Ball. How many explosions did you hear?

Mr. Dillard. I heard three—the three approximately equally spaced.

Mr. Ball. What is the best estimate of the position of your car with reference to the turn at Main and Houston when you heard the first explosion?

Mr. Dillard. Perhaps, oh, just a few feet around the corner and it seems we had slowed a great deal. It seems that our car had slowed down so that we were moving rather slowly and perhaps just passed the turn when I heard the first explosion.

Mr. Ball. Did you hear anyone in your car say anything?

Mr. Dillard. Well, after the third shot I know my comment was, "They killed him." I don't know why I said that but Jackson—there was some running comment about what can we do or where is it coming from and we were all looking. We had an absolutely perfect view of the School Depository from our position in the open car, and Bob Jackson said, "There's a rifle barrel up there." I said, "Where?" I had my camera ready. He said, "It's in that open window." Of course, there were several open windows and I scanned the building.

Mr. Ball. Which building?

Mr. Dillard. The School Depository. And at the same time I brought my camera up and I was looking for the window. Now, this was after the third shot and Jackson said, "There's the rifle barrel up there," and then he said it was the second from the top in the right-hand side, and I swung to it and there was two figures below, and I just shot with one camera, 100-mm. lens on a 35-mm. camera which is approximately a two times daily photo twice normal lens and a wide angle on a 35-mm. which took in a considerable portion of the building and I shot those pictures in rapid sequence with the two cameras.

Mr. Ball. You shot how many pictures?

Mr. Dillard. Two pictures.

Mr. Ball. With one camera or two different cameras?

Mr. Dillard. Two different cameras—one daily photo, not extreme daily photo, but twice the normal lens.

Mr. Ball. You say your cameras were ready? How were they ready?

Mr. Dillard. Hung around my neck and held in my hand.

Mr. Ball. You brought them up and focused and shot?

Mr. Dillard. Well, on the whole ride, I had been watching the tops of buildings and watching for any signs or anything unusual which, of course, is a newsman's chore on a parade like that. We were badly—in a very bad position from our viewpoint to cover anything on the parade, so we were all, as any news photographer is, rather tense when he is covering a Presidential or an affair of that sort and he is trying to get whatever pictures possible and watching for every possibility, and so we all tried for a number of things. Incidentally, the only unusual thing in the parade that I noticed was the President—I understand the President stopped his car at Lemmon and Loma Alta, which is out in the near suburbs of Dallas, as I understand, at the request of a sign that said, "Mr. President, stop and shake hands with us." I jumped out of the car—it was a convertible with the top down—and tried to run to get pictures of it but by that time the parade started and I was unable to get up that far.

Mr. Ball. When you shot these two pictures of the Texas School Book Depository Building, how far were you from the building, would you say?

Mr. Dillard. From the window or from the——

Mr. Ball. From the building. That would be, I suppose, a measurement along the street.

Mr. Dillard. I would say it was just before we reached the corner of Elm and Houston Streets.

Mr. Ball. You were south of Elm and Houston, were you?

Mr. Dillard. Yes.

Mr. Ball. About how far? Well, perhaps as a photographer, you can give me a more accurate estimate this way; tell me how far you think your camera was from the upper windows when you shot that picture?

Mr. Dillard. Oh, it wasn't over 50, 60 yards.

Mr. Ball. Did you see anything in the windows?

Mr. Dillard. No.

165 Mr. Ball. You didn't see a rifle barrel?

Mr. Dillard. No.

Mr. Ball. But you did see some figures or forms in the window?

Mr. Dillard. Only in the windows which was the windows below.

Mr. Ball. How many forms did you see in the windows below?

Mr. Dillard. I saw two men in the windows, at least the arched windows. I saw them in my picture. I was making the picture my eyes were covering.

Mr. Ball. You saw them as you were taking the picture?

Mr. Dillard. I may have; I don't know.

Mr. Ball. Do you remember if you saw two or three figures?

Mr. Dillard. I don't remember.

Mr. Ball. But you did see some figures and you cannot be accurate?

Mr. Dillard. Right.

Mr. Ball. Your car stopped where?

Mr. Dillard. I remember, we were stopping and starting down Houston Street or moving very slowly while this shooting was going on, and I know we came around the corner of Houston and Elm and saw people lying on the ground down the hill on the sides of the lawns there in the plaza, and I jumped out of my car. The car stopped then and I got out and I don't know what happened.

Mr. Ball. What did you do after you go out?

Mr. Dillard. Well, I made a picture of cars moving into the sun under the underpass, somebody chasing the car and I looked at the situation in that area and saw absolutely nothing of the Presidential car or anything that appeared worth photographing to me at the time.

Mr. Ball. How long did you stay around there?

Mr. Dillard. Perhaps 2 minutes.

Mr. Ball. Then where did you go?

Mr. Dillard. Another car, Chevrolet convertible, of the party came by with, I assume, dignitaries in it and I jumped on the back of it and we started—I told them, of course, who I was and we started out Stemmons Expressway toward the Trade Mart and I explained to them what I knew and tried to hold onto the back of that car at rather high speed. I never saw the Presidential car.

Mr. Ball. Do you have any idea or any impression as to the source of the explosions—what direction it was coming from?

Mr. Dillard. Yes, I felt that, at the time, I felt like it was coming from a north area and quite close, and I might qualify I have had a great deal of experience. I am a gun nut and have a great number of high-powered rifles at home, so I know a little bit about guns.

Mr. Ball. You have had experience with rifles?

Mr. Dillard. Yes, I have shot a great deal, so I am familiar with the noise that they made in that area. We were getting a sort of reverberation which made it difficult to pinpoint the actual direction but my feeling was that it was coming into my face and, in that I was facing north toward the School Depository—I might add that I very definitely smelled gun powder when the car moved up at the corner.

Mr. Ball. You did?

Mr. Dillard. I very definitely smelled it.

Mr. Ball. By that you mean when you moved up to the corner of Elm and Houston?

Mr. Dillard. Yes; now, there developed a very brisk north wind.

Mr. Ball. That was in front of the Texas School Book Depository?

Mr. Dillard. Yes, it's rather close—the corner is rather close. I mentioned it, I believe, that it was rather surprising to me.

Mr. Ball. Who did you mention it to?

Mr. Dillard. Bob, I'm sure.

Mr. Ball. Bob Jackson?

Mr. Dillard. Yeah, Bob and I were talking about it.

Mr. Ball. You developed your pictures, didn't you?

Mr. Dillard. I don't remember.

Mr. Ball. Or did you turn them over?

Mr. Dillard. I printed them.

166 Mr. Ball. You printed them?

Mr. Dillard. Yes, I don't remember whether I developed that roll or not. I may have.

Mr. Ball. Did you do that the same day?

Mr. Dillard. Yes, immediately thereafter, shortly after I came back from the hospital.

Mr. Ball. Then you examined the pictures that you had taken—those two pictures you had taken?

Mr. Dillard. Yes.

Mr. Ball. I have——

Mr. Dillard. There was never any question in my mind that there was more than or less than three explosions which were all heavy rifle fire, in my opinion, of the same rifle. The same rifle fired three shots.

Mr. Ball. Do you still have the two negatives?

Mr. Dillard. Yes; of these [indicating]?

Mr. Ball. Yes.

Mr. Dillard. Yes.

Mr. Ball. You have them in your possession?

Mr. Dillard. At the Dallas News; they're in a box kept locked in the managing editor's office.

Mr. Ball. Suppose we could do this. I have pictures here which you can identify but perhaps it might be a little closer to the source if we do this. Could you make me up two prints for your deposition from those negatives?

Mr. Dillard. Well, I guess so.

Mr. Ball. Off the record.

(Off-record discussion.)

Mr. Ball. You will endorse your signature on each copy as being a print made from your negatives, is that satisfactory?

Mr. Dillard. Suits me; I could get it notarized.

Mr. Ball. You don't need to do that because we can attach it as a copy to this deposition.

Mr. Dillard. I could sign these; of course, you want that other.

Mr. Ball. We have two here. First of all, you made one picture with a wide lens?

Mr. Dillard. Yes.

Mr. Ball. And you made a picture with a short lens?

Mr. Dillard. Long lens—short and wide are the same.

Mr. Ball. A short, wide lens and one long lens. Now, I show you two pictures and I mark one "A" and mark one "B." Look them over and tell me whether or not those are prints from the picture that you made that day.

Mr. Dillard. These are prints from one of the negatives I made on November 22.

Mr. Ball. And then you will furnish us two prints, one from each negative which we will mark as "C" and "D" and you will initial them, is that correct?

Mr. Dillard. That is correct.

Mr. Ball. Do you mind initialing the "A" and "B" and we will make it part of this deposition—just on the back?

Mr. Dillard. One of them will be the same picture as these two. These two are prints from one of my negatives.

Mr. Ball. That will be all right.

Mr. Dillard. I have another negative.

Mr. Ball. Which you will make a print of?

Mr. Dillard. If you wish.

Mr. Ball. Make up a print from each negative. Now, you made a statement to Agent Keutzer of the Federal Bureau of Investigation on the 25th of November 1963, didn't you, or thereabouts?

Mr. Dillard. Yes.

Mr. Ball. And at that time, you told him that you first heard a noise which sounded like a torpedo, didn't you?

Mr. Dillard. Yes, I said——

Mr. Ball. Off the record.

(Off-record discussion.)

167 Mr. Ball. Did you tell him that hearing another sound similar to that, you realized it was gunfire?

Mr. Dillard. Yes.

Mr. Ball. And you heard the third shot. Now, the statement says that upon hearing the third shot, the car in which he was riding was stopped almost in front of the Texas School Book Depository Building.

Mr. Dillard. My car?

Mr. Ball. Yes.

Mr. Dillard. Yes.

Mr. Ball. Did you hear Bob Jackson of the Dallas Times-Herald exclaim "I see a rifle; it's up in the open window".

Mr. Dillard. Yes.

Mr. Ball. And Jackson pointed to the Texas School Book Depository located at Elm and Houston Streets?

Mr. Dillard. That's right.

Mr. Ball. And you looked up at the building and you did not see a rifle protruding from any window?

Mr. Dillard. I did not see a rifle.

Mr. Ball. But you did take two photographs?

Mr. Dillard. Correct.

Mr. Ball. And you still have those negatives?

Mr. Dillard. That's true.

Mr. Ball. Were you ever in a position where you could see anyone leave the Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mr. Dillard. Briefly, only in the very short time, perhaps a period of 3 or 4 minutes, that I was in the general area. After the third shot, I was probably not there over 3 or 4 minutes.

Mr. Ball. Did you see anybody leave the building?

Mr. Dillard. To my knowledge; no.

Mr. Ball. I think that's everything. Will you waive signature on this?

Mr. Dillard. Sure.

Mr. Ball. Thank you, sir.

Mr. Dillard. That's all right, glad to help.


TESTIMONY OF JAMES ROBERT UNDERWOOD

The testimony of James Robert Underwood was taken at 11:25 a.m., on April 1, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. Ball. Mr. Underwood, will you stand up and be sworn?

(Complying.)

Mr. Ball. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give before this Commission shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. Underwood. I do.

Mr. Ball. Will you state your name, please?

Mr. Underwood. My name is James Robert Underwood.

Mr. Ball. Your occupation?

Mr. Underwood. I am the assistant news director of KRLD-TV and radio in Dallas.

Mr. Ball. On November 22, 1963, you were in the motorcade, the Presidential motorcade?

Mr. Underwood. Yes, sir; I was three cars behind the President.

Mr. Ball. Who was in the car with you?

Mr. Underwood. There was a photographer from channel 5, WBAP-TV, whose name is James Darnell, and a photographer from the Dallas Morning News—I know his name but I can't think of it right now——

168 Mr. Ball. Tom Dillard?

Mr. Underwood. Yes; Tom Dillard, and a photographer from the Dallas Times-Herald whose name is Bob Jackson, also a photographer from WFAA-TV and I do not know his name. I heard it but I don't remember it.

Mr. Ball. There was a driver, also?

Mr. Underwood. Yes; the driver I later found out was a member of the department of public safety.

Mr. Ball. You are a photographer, also?

Mr. Underwood. Yes, sir; I wear many hats in my business but one of which is news photographer.

Mr. Ball. Did you have your camera with you that day?

Mr. Underwood. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. Ball. What is your experience; where were you born; where did you go to school; how did you get to get the experience that fit you for your present job? Just in your own words, tell me something about yourself.

Mr. Underwood. I was born in Oklahoma City, Okla., in 1922; I served in the Marine Corps from 1940 until 1943, almost 4 years, and after that I attended the University of Tulsa and after that I worked—I began working in radio as an announcer while I was going to college. When I got out of college, I went to Corpus Christi, Tex. That was about 1947 and I became program director and news director of a radio station in Corpus Christi and I stayed there until 1950 when I went to a station in Jacksonville, Fla., where I was also program director and news director, and in 1953, I came to Dallas, and I worked for a year and a half for WFAA-TV as an announcer, then I freelanced in television and radio from September of 1954 until November—and I have to count for a minute—6 years this November that would be until November 1958 when I went to work for KRLD-TV and Radio News and shortly thereafter I became assistant news director but I earned part of my living, I still freelance in television which is all freelance in television and I have a regular job which entails every type of reporting, including photography which I enjoy doing.

Mr. Ball. On the day of the assassination, you were in the motorcade with these men you mentioned and you think your car was third behind the Presidential car?

Mr. Underwood. Yes; and I thought it was six or seven. I shot sound on film of the President's arrival and Vice President's arrival at Dallas Love Field the morning he came in on the 22d and then I took off the rather cumbersome sound on film equipment and took my hand camera because I had an assigned place in the motorcade and I could not tell out there because of the many people I could not tell what position we were in. I could not see that far ahead to determine exactly where we were in the motorcade, although I knew we were in the front of it. The motorcade stopped once on the way downtown, this was briefly, and I jumped over this side—we were in a convertible—and ran toward the President's car and I was aware of the crowd and the motorcade immediately started and I ran back to the convertible, not wanting to be left, and looking afterward at the films that I took there, I could then count the cars there. I realized we were three behind him, according to my movies we took. When we turned onto Main Street downtown and headed west toward the scene of where the assassination took place, either the regulator or the mainspring in my camera broke and I was without a camera. I knew that we had two men, at least two men on the parade route who were on the street and would be filming the motorcade as we came by and I hoped to exchange my broken camera for one of theirs because I knew I could make more use of the one that would operate. The only problem was we went down Main Street so rapidly it would have been impossible to get anything from someone standing on the street and at Main and Record one of our men was stationed and I tried to holler at him my camera was broken and I wanted to switch and I started to and there was no point in it because we passed there that rapidly. I thought it was the fastest motorcade that passed through a crowd; this was really moving, as far as I was concerned. Then, we came to the scene where the shots were fired. Do you want me to go on?

Mr. Ball. From the time you turned, tell me what you observed after you made the turn at Main and Houston to drive north on Houston.

169 Mr. Underwood. After we turned onto Houston Street, the car I was in was about, as far as I can remember, about in the middle of the block or a little bit north of the center of the block, which is a short block, when I heard the first shot.

Mr. Ball. Between Main and Elm?

Mr. Underwood. Yes; between Main and Elm, closer to the Elm intersection, Elm and Houston intersection, when I heard the first shot fired. I thought it was an explosion. I have heard many rifles fired but it did not sound like a rifle to me. Evidently must have been a reverberation from the buildings or something. I believe I said to one of the other fellows it sounds like a giant firecracker and the car I was in was about in the intersection of Elm and Houston when I heard a second shot fired and moments later a third shot fired and I realized that they were by that time, the last two shots, I realized they were coming from overhead.

Mr. Ball. You realized they were coming from overhead and that would be from what source?

Mr. Underwood. That would be from the Texas School Book Depository Building.

Mr. Ball. It sounded like they were coming from that direction?

Mr. Underwood. Yes, sir; the last two. Now, the first was just a loud explosion but it sounded like a giant firecracker or something had gone off. By the time the third shot was fired, the car I was in stopped almost through the intersection in front of the Texas School Book Depository Building and I leaped out of the car before the car stopped. Bob Jackson from the Herald said he thought he saw a rifle in the window and I looked where he pointed and I saw nothing. Below the window he was pointing at, I saw two colored men leaning out there with their heads turned toward the top of the building, trying, I suppose, to determine where the shots were coming from.

Mr. Ball. What words did you hear Bob Jackson say?

Mr. Underwood. I don't know that I can remember exactly except I did hear him say words to the effect that "I saw a rifle" and I looked at that instant and I saw nothing myself. If he saw a rifle, I did not.

Mr. Ball. At that point when you looked, where was your car?

Mr. Underwood. Our car was in the intersection, in the intersection of Elm and Houston Street.

Mr. Ball. Had it made the turn yet?

Mr. Underwood. It had partially made the turn or had just begun to make the turn. Frankly, I was looking up and around and I saw at the same time people falling on the ground down the street toward the underpass and my first impression was some of these people falling to the ground had been shot.

Mr. Ball. Did your car stop?

Mr. Underwood. Our car stopped and the minute it stopped I leaped out of the car.

Mr. Ball. Where was your car when it stopped?

Mr. Underwood. Right in the intersection, perhaps just past the intersection, turned onto Elm.

Mr. Ball. Did you get out before the car parked along the curb?

Mr. Underwood. Yes, sir; the minute it stopped, I leaped over the side.

Mr. Ball. What did you do?

Mr. Underwood. I left my camera in the car, the camera that was broken, and ran as fast as I could back toward the man we had at Record and Main in order to get a camera. There I was without a camera; the only thought I had was to get a camera.

Mr. Ball. Did you get one?

Mr. Underwood. Yes; I ran the full block back to Main Street and our man there, name of Sanderson, was running down Main toward Houston. He was running to meet me, although he didn't know what was happening and that my camera was broke. Suddenly, motorcycles and sirens had been turned on police cars and were all headed toward Main. I met him just around the corner on Main past Houston and grabbed his camera and said, "Someone had been shooting at the President." I didn't know this but I assumed it happened. I170 took his camera and got back to the scene. When I got back to the scene, most of the people in the area were running up the grassy slope toward the railway yards just behind the Texas School Book Depository Building. Actually, I assumed, which is the only thing I could do, I assumed perhaps who had fired the shots had run in that direction. I recognized at least a dozen deputy sheriffs running also in that area—it seems to me that many, and I ran up there and took some films and they were running through the railroad yard and they very quickly found nothing and I was having, frankly, a hard time breathing because I had done more running in those few minutes than I am used to doing. I gasped out to a couple people—I don't know who they are—that I thought the shots came from that building and one of the fellows in the car with me said they had seen a rifle barrel in the building.

Mr. Ball. This group of men were deputy sheriffs?

Mr. Underwood. For the most part, yes; I don't think I could recall—Lemmy Lewis I see in my mind, but I am not sure Lemmy was there. This was a kaleidoscope of things happening. In my business, you need to make a quick appraisal of what is happening if you are going to shoot pictures of it. I was confused and out of breath and unbelieving of what happened.

Mr. Ball. Where did you go from the grassy slopes?

Mr. Underwood. I went from the railroad yards—actually, I was back in the track area—I went immediately with these men at a run to the Texas School Depository.

Mr. Ball. Which entrance?

Mr. Underwood. The front entrance.

Mr. Ball. On Elm?

Mr. Underwood. Yes; and I ran down there and I think I took some pictures of some men—yes, I know I did, going in and out of the building. By that time there was one police officer there and he was a three-wheeled motorcycle officer and a little colored boy whose last name I remember as Eunice.

Mr. Ball. Euins?

Mr. Underwood. It may have been Euins. It was difficult to understand when he said his name. He was telling the motorcycle officer he had seen a colored man lean out of the window upstairs and he had a rifle. He was telling this to the officer and the officer took him over and put him in a squad car. By that time, motorcycle officers were arriving, homicide officers were arriving and I went over and asked this boy if he had seen someone with a rifle and he said "Yes, sir." I said, "Were they white or black?" He said, "It was a colored man." I said, "Are you sure it was a colored man?" He said, "Yes sir" and I asked him his name and the only thing I could understand was what I thought his name was Eunice.

Mr. Ball. Was he about 15?

Mr. Underwood. I couldn't tell his age; looked to me to be younger. I would have expected him to be about 10 or 11 years old.

Mr. Ball. Then what did you do?

Mr. Underwood. I stayed in front of the building; actually, I stayed in the intersection of Elm and Houston and took movies of police arriving and fire—and I think some fire equipment arrived on the scene, one firetruck or two firetrucks, I'm not sure, and I just shot some general film on the area. I have since searched that film to see if I could see any face in it that would have been important to this.

Mr. Ball. Leaving the building?

Mr. Underwood. Yes; but I haven't found any except that of officers arriving and just people generally in the area; none of it, though, that you could—I spent several days at this, I guess during January when things had calmed down. I was on the side street of the building, around the front of the building and in the intersection for the next 10 minutes, then I went across the street to the courthouse and phoned several news reports to C.B.S. in New York and described what was taking place in the building at that time. There were firemen with ladders in front of the building and officers running in and out and they cordoned off the building and kept the spectators out of the building, but there was quite a time lapse between the time the shots were fired and the time171 anyone checked the building. The main effort was to run to the railroad yards instead of the School Book Depository.

Mr. Ball. I think that's all. Mr. Underwood, this will be typed up and you can waive signature if you wish or you can sign it if you wish.

Mr. Underwood. I don't have to sign it. I will waive signature.


TESTIMONY OF JAMES N. CRAWFORD

The testimony of James N. Crawford was taken at 11:15 a.m., on April 1, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. Ball. Mr. Crawford, I'm Joe Ball and this is Lillian Johnson.

Mr. Crawford. Glad to know you. I know Lillian Johnson. How is Irving, by the way?

Mr. Ball. Will you stand up, please, and hold up your right hand?

Mr. Crawford (complying).

Mr. Ball. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give before this Commission shall be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. Crawford. I swear.

Mr. Ball. My name is Joe Ball. I'm staff counsel with the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy and I have been authorized to question you and ask you to give us such information as you have as to the facts of the assassination and those things that you observed on November 22, 1963. Will you state your name for the court reporter?

Mr. Crawford. My name is James N. Crawford.

Mr. Ball. What is your occupation?

Mr. Crawford. I am deputy district clerk.

Mr. Ball. You received a request from the Commission in writing, did you not, requesting you to give this testimony?

Mr. Crawford. I did.

Mr. Ball. You received it some time last week?

Mr. Crawford. Actually, it came to the office Saturday. I did not receive it until Monday.

Mr. Ball. That will be Monday, March 30?

Mr. Crawford. Yes.

Mr. Ball. Where were you born?

Mr. Crawford. I was born in Greenville, Texas.

Mr. Ball. What was your general education?

Mr. Crawford. High school in Greenville, Texas, and college at Texas A. & M.

Mr. Ball. What did you do after that, just a general sketch of some of your occupations?

Mr. Crawford. I worked for the Texas Company in New Orleans and have been in and out of the furniture business and in the oil business here in Dallas until I went with the county.

Mr. Ball. How long have you been with the county of Dallas?

Mr. Crawford. About 10 years.

Mr. Ball. You are a deputy county clerk there?

Mr. Crawford. District clerk.

Mr. Ball. On November 22, 1963, about around 12 o'clock or so, where were you?

Mr. Crawford. I was in the office of the district clerk.

Mr. Ball. Did you later leave and go out into the street?

Mr. Crawford. About 12:25, we left the office and went out to the corner of Houston and Elm.

Mr. Ball. You went with whom?

172 Mr. Crawford. Mary Ann Mitchell.

Mr. Ball. She works in the office with you?

Mr. Crawford. She is in the office with me.

Mr. Ball. What is her occupation in the office?

Mr. Crawford. Assistant to the district clerk.

(At this point, Mr. James Underwood enters the hearing.)

Mr. Ball. Where is your office located in Dallas?

Mr. Crawford. It's located on the ground floor of the Records Building.

Mr. Ball. What street?

Mr. Crawford. That's Record and Elm—that's Commerce, isn't it, Jim?

Mr. Underwood. What's that?

Mr. Crawford. What is the street just north of the courthouse—that's Elm.

Mr. Underwood. It's bordered by Elm, Main, Record, and Houston.

Mr. Ball. You are located on the corner of——

Mr. Crawford. Elm.

Mr. Ball. Elm and——

Mr. Crawford. And Record.

Mr. Ball. And Record, and then you walked which direction?

Mr. Crawford. Well, actually, the courthouse is—I suppose our office would be considered on Elm and Houston.

Mr. Ball. When you left your office, you walked on what street?

Mr. Crawford. Walked on Elm to Houston, rather than Record.

Mr. Ball. In other words, you walked west on Elm towards Houston?

Mr. Crawford. Right.

Mr. Ball. To what corner of Elm and Houston?

Mr. Crawford. That would be the corner of the courthouse. Do you want the direction of the intersection?

Mr. Ball. Yes, where was it? Southeast, northwest corner of Elm?

Mr. Crawford. It's the northwest corner of the courthouse.

Mr. Ball. The northwest corner of the courthouse—it's the southeast corner of the intersection?

Mr. Crawford. Southeast corner of the intersection.

Mr. Ball. Where were you when you watched the President pass?

Mr. Crawford. I was at that location.

Mr. Ball. Which corner of the intersection?

Mr. Crawford. The southeast corner of the intersection.

Mr. Ball. Where was the Texas School Book Depository Building from where you were standing?

Mr. Crawford. It would be on the northwest corner of the intersection.

Mr. Ball. Directly across?

Mr. Crawford. Yes; right.

Mr. Ball. Did you have a good view at that point of the south exposure of the Texas School Book Depository?

Mr. Crawford. I had a very good angle.

Mr. Ball. Did you see the President's car pass?

Mr. Crawford. I did.

Mr. Ball. And just tell me in your own words what you observed after that?

Mr. Crawford. As I observed the parade, I believe there was a car leading the President's car, followed by the President's car and followed, I suppose, by the Vice President's car and, in turn, by the Secret Service in a yellow closed sedan. The doors of the sedan were open. It was after the Secret Service sedan had gone around the corner that I heard the first report and at that time I thought it was a backfire of a car but, in analyzing the situation, it could not have been a backfire of a car because it would have had to have been the President's car or some car in the cavalcade there. The second shot followed some seconds, a little time elapsed after the first one, and followed very quickly by the third one. I could not see the President's car——

Mr. Ball. At that time?

Mr. Crawford. That's right; I couldn't even see the Secret Service car, at least I wasn't looking for it. As the report from the third shot sounded, I looked up. I had previously looked around to see if there was somebody shooting firecrackers173 to see if I could see a puff of smoke, and after I decided it wasn't a backfire from an automobile and as the third report was sounded, I looked up and from the far east corner of the sixth floor I saw a movement in the only window that was open on that floor. It was an indistinct movement. It was just barely a glimpse.

Mr. Ball. Which window?

Mr. Crawford. That would be the far east window——

Mr. Ball. On the——

Mr. Crawford. On the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository. I turned to Miss Mitchell and made the statement that if those were shots they came from that window. That was based mainly on the fact of the quick movement observed in the window right at the conclusion of the report.

Mr. Ball. Could you give me any better description than just a movement? Could you use any other words to describe what you saw by way of color or size of what you saw moving?

Mr. Crawford. If I were asked to describe it, I would say that it was a profile, somewhat from the waist up, but it was a very quick movement and rather indistinct and it was very light colored. It was either light colored or it was reflection from the sun. When the gun was found, or when a gun was found, I asked the question if it was white, simply because if it was a gun I saw, then it was either white or it was reflecting the sun so it would appear white or light colored.

Mr. Ball. Did you see any boxes in that window?

Mr. Crawford. Yes, directly behind the window, oh possibly three feet or less, there were boxes stacked up behind the window and I believe it was the only place in the building that I observed where boxes were stacked just like that.

Mr. Ball. Did you see any boxes in the window?

Mr. Crawford. No, I didn't see any. There wasn't any boxes in the window.

Mr. Ball. Did you stay there at that point very long, the southeast corner?

Mr. Crawford. No; as I said. I couldn't observe the President's car and I had no actual knowledge that he had been shot, so realizing that we should get the information almost immediately from the radio which had been covering the motorcade—we had been listening to it prior to going on the street—I thought our best information would come from that, so we went, Miss Mitchell and I, went back into the office. I have no way of knowing the time. I would say it was a minute or—I would say a minute.

Mr. Ball. After you heard the shots, did you return to the office?

Mr. Crawford. Yes.

Mr. Ball. The movement that you saw that you describe as something light and perhaps a profile from the waist up, you mean it looked like a profile of a person?

Mr. Crawford. That was—I had a hard time describing that. When I saw it, I automatically in my mind came to the conclusion that it was a person having moved out of the window. Now, to say that it was a brown haired, light skinned individual, I could not do that.

Mr. Ball. Could you tell whether it was a man or woman?

Mr. Crawford. I could not.

Mr. Ball. You made a report to the Federal Bureau of Investigation on the 10th of January?

Mr. Crawford. Yes.

Mr. Ball. Before I ask you about your report, did you have any impression as to the source of the sound, from what direction the sound came, the sound of the explosions?

Mr. Crawford. Yes; I do. As I mentioned before, the sound, I thought it was a backfire in the cavalcade from down the hill, down the hill toward the underpass.

Mr. Ball. You mean west on Elm?

Mr. Crawford. Yes, and that was a little confusing and in analyzing it later, evidently the report that I heard, and probably a lot of other people, the174 officers or the FBI, it evidently was a sound that was reflected by the underpass and therefore came back. It did not sound to me, ever, as I remember, the high-powered rifle sounding. It was not the sharp crack.

Mr. Ball. What caused you to look up at the Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mr. Crawford. The sound had to be coming from somewhere; the noise was being made at some place, so I didn't see anyone shooting firecrackers or anything else and I thought "this idiot surely shouldn't do such a thing," but if they were, where were they, and if they were shots, where were they coming from, and that caused me to search the whole area on Houston Street and in front of the Texas Depository on Elm Street and then up and that's how I happened to be looking up at the time, rather than observing things in the street, probably.

Mr. Ball. Did you ever see any smoke?

Mr. Crawford. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. Ball. In your remark to Mary Ann Mitchell, did you say "if those were shots, they came from that window"?

Mr. Crawford. Yes.

Mr. Ball. That is what you reported to the FBI agent, also?

Mr. Crawford. Yes, I suppose; at that time, I was still not absolutely sure that they were shots and that's why I said if they were shots. I was basing that, I am sure I was basing that mainly on the fact of this quick movement that I observed. In other words, if I were firing the shots, I would have jumped back immediately at the conclusion of them.

Mr. Ball. Later on, did you go back in the street and talk to someone?

Mr. Crawford. Yes.

Mr. Ball. Did you talk to a deputy sheriff?

Mr. Crawford. Allen Swett.

Mr. Ball. What did you tell him?

Mr. Crawford. I told him to have the men search the boxes directly behind this window that was open on the sixth floor—the window in the far east corner.

Mr. Ball. Did you tell him anything of what you had seen?

Mr. Crawford. I don't think so. I think I was so amazed that I could walk across the street and walk up to this building that was supposedly under surveillance and the man had not been—I say "the man"—there had not been anyone apprehended.

Mr. Ball. How long was it after you heard the shots that you walked up to Allen Swett and talked to him?

Mr. Crawford. My guess is it could have been anywhere from 10–20 minutes. My guess would be around 15–20 minutes.

Mr. Ball. In the statement you made to the FBI agent, he reports you said you walked to the Texas School Book Depository where you contacted Deputy Sheriff Allen Swett and advised him of the movement you had seen in the sixth floor window?

Mr. Crawford. I must have said something about the movement. I did tell him to search those windows, I think.

Mr. Ball. Could you in your own words give us your memory of what you told Allen Swett?

Mr. Crawford. I would probably have said, as I remember it, that to have the men search—have someone search the boxes directly behind that window. I had seen some movement directly after the shots. That was, I think, all I said. I did not—there was no conversation and at the conclusion of my statement, he directed several men up there.

Mr. Ball. Did you ever go in the building yourself?

Mr. Crawford. I did not and I still have not been in there.

Mr. Ball. I think that's all, Mr. Crawford. Thanks very much.

Mr. Crawford. Thank you, Mr. Ball.

Mr. Ball. Incidentally, will you waive signature on this?

Mr. Crawford. Yes; I will.


175

TESTIMONY OF MARY ANN MITCHELL

The testimony of Mary Ann Mitchell was taken at 2:30 p.m., on April 1, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. Ball. Miss Mitchell, will you stand up, please, and be sworn; hold up your right hand.

(Complying.)

Mr. Ball. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will be giving before this Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Miss Mitchell. Yes; I do.

Mr. Ball. Will you state your name, please?

Miss Mitchell. Mary Ann Mitchell.

Mr. Ball. What is your occupation?

Miss Mitchell. I am a deputy district clerk.

Mr. Ball. For Dallas County?

Miss Mitchell. For the county of Dallas.

Mr. Ball. What kind of work is that; do you work in the court?

Miss Mitchell. No; I work in the main office of the clerk of the district courts.

Mr. Ball. Tell me something about your background—where were you born, where were you raised, what schools did you go to?

Miss Mitchell. I was born in Roanoke, Tex., which is in Denton County, about 30 miles north of here; graduated from high school in Denton in 1942. I went to college for 2 years at Arlington and moved to Dallas and came to work here in June of 1944. I have held several secretarial and stenographic type jobs before I went to work for the county of Dallas and that was in 1950 and I have been there since then.

Mr. Ball. Since 1950, you have been with the county with the Clerk of the District Court of Dallas County?

Miss Mitchell. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. On the 22d of November 1963, about noontime, where were you?

Miss Mitchell. About noontime?

Mr. Ball. Yes.

Miss Mitchell. I was in the office about noon.

Mr. Ball. Working?

Miss Mitchell. Working, which is in the basement of the Records Building.

Mr. Ball. Did you leave there some time, leave the office to see the parade that morning?

Miss Mitchell. Yes, as a matter of fact, I went up to see the parade since we are in the basement.

Mr. Ball. What time did you leave the building?

Miss Mitchell. At possibly 12:25 or 12:27, something like that.

Mr. Ball. Whom were you with?

Miss Mitchell. I left the office with Jim Crawford.

Mr. Ball. Where did you go?

Miss Mitchell. I went out onto the street and down to the corner of the building.

Mr. Ball. That means you would be on what corner of what streets?

Miss Mitchell. I went out the Elm Street entrance of the building and I was on the corner of Elm and Record—I'm sorry, Elm and Houston.

Mr. Ball. Which corner?

Miss Mitchell. I knew you were going to ask that and I decided it's probably the northwest corner. I am not good at directions.

Mr. Ball. Let's put it this way——

Miss Mitchell. It's the corner diagonally across the intersection from the Texas School Book Depository.

Mr. Ball. The Texas School Book Depository is on the northwest corner; that would put you on the southeast corner.

176 Miss Mitchell. Yes, sir; I was thinking about which corner of the building.

Mr. Ball. The northwest corner of the building and the southeast corner of the intersection, is that right?

Miss Mitchell. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Were you near the curb when you were standing?

Miss Mitchell. Yes; I was on the curb.

Mr. Ball. Did you see the President's car pass?

Miss Mitchell. Yes; I did.

Mr. Ball. Tell me in your own words what you noticed and what you heard after the President's car passed; what did you see and what did you hear?

Miss Mitchell. Well, the President's car passed and, of course, I watched it as long as I could see it but, as I remember, immediately behind it was a car full of men with the top down and quite a few of them were standing and I assumed they were Secret Service men, so after the car turned the corner and started down the hill, I couldn't see over the heads of the standing men for very long, so then I turned back to watch the other people in the caravan, whatever you call it, and probably about the time the car in which Senator Yarborough was riding had just passed, I heard some reports. The first one—there were three—the second and third being closer together than the first and second and probably on the first one my thought was that it was a firecracker and I think on the second one I thought that some police officer was after somebody that wasn't doing right and by the third report Jim Crawford had said the shots came from the building and as I looked up there then we realized that if the shots were coming from that building there was bound to have been somebody shooting at the people in the cars.

Mr. Ball. You heard Jim Crawford say something about if they were shots—what were his words exactly?

Miss Mitchell. Well, I'm not sure that he said—I think he just said, "Those shots came from that building," just assuming that everybody could have figured out by then that they were shots.

Mr. Ball. Did you look at the building?

Miss Mitchell. Yes; I did.

Mr. Ball. Did you see anybody in any of the windows?

Miss Mitchell. I don't remember. I understand there were some porters that were leaning out of the fifth floor windows but I don't remember whether I saw them or not. I know where I thought he was pointing and where I was looking I couldn't see anybody so I never was sure which window he thought he was pointing to.

Mr. Ball. Was he pointing?

Miss Mitchell. I am almost sure that he was because I was trying to figure out exactly where he was.

Mr. Ball. What did you do after that, if anything?

Miss Mitchell. Well, looked back around at the crowd, I'm sure, because I expected to see the Secret Service men and police escorts just start pouring everywhere when we decided what the shots were and then looking at the people that were falling on the ground and started milling around and then I went back in the office.

Mr. Ball. And you did not come out again?

Miss Mitchell. No; I did not come out again.

Mr. Ball. Did you, at any time, say anything like "oh, no, no" in reply to what Mr. Crawford said?

Miss Mitchell. Well, yes, I'm sure I did.

Mr. Ball. In reply to what remark of his?

Miss Mitchell. Oh, I don't know. I don't know possibly it was when he was talking about the shots coming from the building but I don't remember if he said anything else.

Mr. Ball. Well, if you excuse me just a minute, let me look in my notes here. These are the notes from which I refresh my memory here.

Miss Mitchell. I can remember what I was saying and doing better than I can what other people were.

Mr. Ball. Is there anything else that you remember that you said?

177 Miss Mitchell. Besides when I said something about "oh, no, no" or "oh, my goodness" or "oh, my God" or whatever I said?

Mr. Ball. Yes; that's right.

Miss Mitchell. Yes; I said, "This is no place for us, let's get out of here." I thought if we would get out of their way, the police officers could work better.

Mr. Ball. That's when you left?

Miss Mitchell. That's when I left and he came with me. I had locked the office and I had the key to the office still in my hand so I could get back in very fast.

Mr. Ball. I think that's all. Do you want to look this over and read it and sign it or do you want to waive signature?

Miss Mitchell. Either way. We were out of the office such a short time because we had spotters in the building so we would know when the parade was coming and we could run out. We had so many people in the building who worked there upstairs and they called us when it was coming so we could go outside.

Mr. Ball. If you wish, we can waive your signature; the young lady will write it up and send it back to Washington, is that all right with you?

Miss Mitchell. Yes; that's fine.

Mr. Ball. I think that's all. Thank you very much for coming up today.


TESTIMONY OF MRS. BARBARA ROWLAND

The testimony of Mrs. Barbara Rowland was taken at 4 p.m., on April 7, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. Belin. Mrs. Rowland, will you stand and be sworn. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give before this President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mrs. Rowland. Yes, sir.

Mr. Belin. Would you please state your name.

Mrs. Rowland. Barbara Rowland.

Mr. Belin. Is it Miss or Mrs.?

Mrs. Rowland. Mrs.

Mr. Belin. To whom are you married?

Mrs. Rowland. Arnold Lewis Rowland.

Mr. Belin. Your husband has already gone to Washington to testify before the Commission in Washington, is that correct?

Mrs. Rowland. Yes, sir.

Mr. Belin. What is your occupation right now? What are you doing?

Mrs. Rowland. I am a housewife.

Mr. Belin. Are you a high school graduate?

Mrs. Rowland. No, sir.

Mr. Belin. Are you still attending high school?

Mrs. Rowland. No; but I plan to go back later.

Mr. Belin. In the fall?

Mrs. Rowland. Yes, sir.

Mr. Belin. Where is your husband working?

Mrs. Rowland. He's got a new job. He is working for Life Circulation Co., or corporation, I don't know which.

Mr. Belin. What does he do?

Mrs. Rowland. He is a telephone solicitor.

Mr. Belin. For magazine subscriptions?

Mrs. Rowland. Yes, sir.

Mr. Belin. Is your husband a high school graduate or not?

178 Mrs. Rowland. No.

Mr. Belin. Did you meet while you were going to high school?

Mrs. Rowland. Yes, sir.

Mr. Belin. How old is your husband, by the way?

Mrs. Rowland. He is 18.

Mr. Belin. When were you married?

Mrs. Rowland. We were married May 16, 1963.

Mr. Belin. So you will be having your anniversary in another few weeks?

Mrs. Rowland. Yes.

Mr. Belin. Do you know if I got on the record your residence?

Mrs. Rowland. 1131A Phinney.

Mr. Belin. Is that in Dallas?

Mrs. Rowland. Yes.

Mr. Belin. Are you originally from Dallas?

Mrs. Rowland. Yes, sir.

Mr. Belin. You lived here all your life?

Mrs. Rowland. Except the summer we lived in Oregon.

Mr. Belin. Is your husband originally from Dallas?

Mrs. Rowland. He is from Corpus Christi.

Mr. Belin. Has he lived in Texas all of his life, do you know, or not?

Mrs. Rowland. No. He has lived in Texas and Kansas and Oregon and Arizona, and I don't know where else.

Mr. Belin. When did he live in Kansas?

Mrs. Rowland. About 2 years ago, I think.

Mr. Belin. Do you know what he was doing when he was in Kansas?

Mrs. Rowland. He was going to school and working, I don't know what as. I think he worked in a cafe.

Mr. Belin. Do you know how far your husband got through school?

Mrs. Rowland. Well, his credits are all mixed up. I think he lacks one or two semesters.

Mr. Belin. Of completing high school?

Mrs. Roland. Yes.

Mr. Belin. You said you were going back to school. Does he plan to keep working, or does he plan to go back to school?

Mrs. Rowland. He plans to go back to school sometime. I'm not sure when.

Mr. Belin. To finish high school?

Mrs. Rowland. And college. Go to college, I think.

Mr. Belin. Well, has he ever made any application for college yet, that you know of?

Mrs. Rowland. I don't know for certain.

Mr. Belin. Do you know, or has he ever said to you that he has?

Mrs. Rowland. He told me he was going to make an application at Oregon State, and—but I don't know if he ever made any applications anywhere.

Mr. Belin. Would you categorize yourself insofar as your grades that you got in high school, would they have been C's, B's, or A's, or what?

Mrs. Rowland. A's and a few B's.

Mr. Belin. What was your major?

Mrs. Rowland. English.

Mr. Belin. If you had one?

Mrs. Rowland. I was going to major in English, Math, and Spanish.

Mr. Belin. All three?

Mrs. Rowland. In high school.

Mr. Belin. What about your husband? Did you know what he was majoring in?

Mrs. Rowland. Math, I think.

Mr. Belin. Do you know about what his grades were?

Mrs. Rowland. Varied.

Mr. Belin. What do you mean by that?

Mrs. Rowland. He made A's and B's in some subjects, and he made C's and D's, I think, in other subjects.

Mr. Belin. Was this before you were married?

Mrs. Rowland. Yes. He says he has an A average, but I don't believe him.

179 Mr. Belin. Why? Did he tell you that?

Mrs. Rowland. Yes. He told me that, because I saw a few of his report cards.

Mr. Belin. Pardon?

Mrs. Rowland. I saw a few of his report cards and they weren't all A's.

Mr. Belin. For what years would that have been?

Mrs. Rowland. I don't remember. I just saw them.

Mr. Belin. Mrs. Rowland, I want to get just a little bit more background information. After you were married, were you employed at all or not?

Mrs. Rowland. I worked for Sanger Harris during the Christmas season this year, this past year.

Mr. Belin. Other than that?

Mrs. Rowland. Well, I worked for about 3 days for a friend of mine at a dry goods store.

Mr. Belin. What about your husband? What jobs has he held since you were married?

Mrs. Rowland. Let's see, he worked at West Foods in Salem,——

Mr. Belin. Was this after you were married?

Mrs. Rowland. Yes.

Mr. Belin. Did you go to Oregon after you were married?

Mrs. Rowland. Yes. We were married May 16, and we went to Oregon about, we left the next day, and we got there about the 21st or something like that. He worked at West Foods in Salem; Exchange Lumber in Salem; Myron Frank in Salem, and after we moved back down here and——

Mr. Belin. When did you move back down to Texas?

Mrs. Rowland. In September.

Mr. Belin. Were these jobs that he held of the same type, or did he work first at one place and then——

Mrs. Rowland. One place and then another.

Mr. Belin. Any particular reason why he changed jobs, that you know of?

Mrs. Rowland. Well, the first job was dirty and difficult and he didn't like it.

Mr. Belin. What was he doing then?

Mrs. Rowland. He was working in a mushroom plant.

Mr. Belin. As what?

Mrs. Rowland. I think he was carrying them out, I don't know exactly what he was doing with them. Then he worked at Myron Frank which was a department store.

Mr. Belin. What did he do there?

Mrs. Rowland. He worked as a cook.

Mr. Belin. Is he a good cook?

Mrs. Rowland. Pretty good cook.

Mr. Belin. Are you better than he is?

Mrs. Rowland. I am not a very good cook.

Mr. Belin. All right.

Mrs. Rowland. Anyway, he worked there. It was a temporary job when he got it, and when the time, when the period was up, he got another job as a, what do you call it, a shipping clerk at the Exchange Lumber Co., and he worked there until a few days before we left.

Mr. Belin. Then you went back to Dallas sometime in September?

Mrs. Rowland. Yes.

Mr. Belin. Then what did your husband do?

Mrs. Rowland. I don't remember the first job. He worked for Pizza Inn as a cook and he worked for Civic Reading Club as a telephone solicitation job, and he worked for P. F. Collier Co., as a salesman, and then he worked, now he is working for Life Circulation Co. as a telephone solicitor.

Mr. Belin. How long did he have these jobs? The first one, how long did he work there, approximately?

Mrs. Rowland. I don't know. I think he worked at Pizza Inn for about two and a half months, maybe. And he worked for P. F. Collier for about 4 weeks, I think, but he didn't do anything there. I mean he wasn't very successful. And he worked for Civic Reading Club about 2 months, I guess.

180 Mr. Belin. And now he is working for?

Mrs. Rowland. Life Circulation Co.

Mr. Belin. Were you working at all during the fall, or what were you doing?

Mrs. Rowland. He worked for Sanger Harris during the Christmas season, too.

Mr. Belin. Were you?

Mrs. Rowland. Yes. That is the only job. That is all I have worked.

Mr. Belin. Were you going to school at all in the fall, or not?

Mrs. Rowland. Yes; at the beginning of the fall we were both going to school. But we couldn't quite afford to stay, and so because his job was only part-time——

Mr. Belin. So did either one of you quit or both?

Mrs. Rowland. Both.

Mr. Belin. About when did you both quit?

Mrs. Roland. In November, I believe it was.

Mr. Belin. Would this have been before or after the shooting of President Kennedy?

Mrs. Roland. Well, we stopped going before the assassination, but we officially dropped afterwards.

Mr. Belin. Well, let me ask you this. On the morning of the assassination, where were you?

Mrs. Roland. We were on Houston Street near the drive-in entrance of the records building between Elm and Main Streets.

Mr. Belin. Before that, where had you been that morning?

Mrs. Rowland. At my mother's home.

Mr. Belin. You had been at your mother's home that morning from about when to when?

Mrs. Rowland. Well, we were living with my mother, and so from that morning when we got up, and we walked part way——

Mr. Belin. When did you leave your mother's home, about?

Mrs. Rowland. I think it was about 10 or 10:30, and we caught the bus. We walked a few blocks toward town, because we thought we would be too late to come see him, and we caught the bus, I don't know exactly what time it was when we got to town, but I think it was about 11:30, and about 15 minutes before the motorcade came by is when he told me about the man up in the window.

Mr. Belin. All right, now, you caught a bus near your mother's place?

Mrs. Rowland. Yes.

Mr. Belin. About what time?

Mrs. Rowland. The Ledbetter bus.

Mr. Belin. About what time do you think you caught the bus?

Mrs. Roland. I don't know, about 10:30, I guess.

Mr. Belin. When did that get you downtown?

Mrs. Rowland. About 11. I don't know exactly. I don't remember times very well.

Mr. Belin. Well, let me ask you this. After you got downtown, what did you do?

Mrs. Rowland. We just stood there waiting for the motorcade.

Mr. Belin. Well. I will kind of work backwards. How long did you stand waiting for the motorcade before the motorcade came by, if you remember?

Mrs. Rowland. About 25 minutes, I think.

Mr. Belin. How long did it take you to get from the bus stop?

Mrs. Rowland. The bus stop was right there.

Mr. Belin. Do you figure if the motorcade came by at around 12:30, you figure you got down to the spot at 12 or 12:05?

Mrs. Rowland. Yes.

Mr. Belin. If you got down to that spot at 12 or 12:05, how many minutes prior to that time do you think you got on the bus?

Mrs. Rowland. About 45.

Mr. Belin. You figure it might have been a 45-minute bus ride?

Mrs. Rowland. Yes.

Mr. Belin. That would have meant that you would have got on the bus around 11:15 or so?

181 Mrs. Rowland. Yes.

Mr. Belin. Do you remember how long you waited for the bus before you got it?

Mrs. Rowland. We were walking while waiting for the bus, and it was about, I guess, 20 minutes.

Mr. Belin. So you figured you walked around about 20 minutes?

Mrs. Rowland. Yes.

Mr. Belin. So you figured you would have left your mother's home shortly before 11?

Mrs. Rowland. Yes.

Mr. Belin. You are nodding your head yes?

Mrs. Rowland. Yes.

Mr. Belin. All right, did you notice anything while you were watching, waiting for the motorcade?

Mrs. Rowland. We saw an airplane. Now, while we were waiting for the motorcade, well, there was a man across the street who fainted in the park.

Mr. Belin. You were standing now on what street?

Mrs. Rowland. On Houston Street.

Mr. Belin. That would be on the east or the west side of Houston?

Mrs. Rowland. West side—east side.

Mr. Belin. East side. In front of what building?

Mrs. Rowland. In front of the records, at the side of the records building.

Mr. Belin. Do you know any particular spot that you were standing?

Mrs. Rowland. We were standing near the drive-in entrance. There is an elevator there, too.

Mr. Belin. Near the elevator that comes out of the ground?

Mrs. Rowland. Yes.

Mr. Belin. All right, you said you noticed a man across the street fainted. Anything else that you and your husband noticed?

Mrs. Rowland. Well, my husband and I were talking about Mr. Stevenson's visit and the way the people had acted, and we were talking about security measures, and he said he saw a man on the sixth floor of the School Book Depository Building, and when I looked up there I didn't see the man, because I didn't know exactly what window he was talking about at first.

And when I found out which window it was, the man had apparently stepped back, because I didn't see him.

Mr. Belin. Which window was it?

Mrs. Rowland. It was the far left-hand window.

Mr. Belin. As you face the building?

Mrs. Rowland. Yes.

Mr. Belin. It would be the window to the south side of the building?

Mrs. Rowland. Yes.

Mr. Belin. Would it be on the eastern part of the south side or the western part of the south side?

Mrs. Rowland. West.

Mr. Belin. Would it be the farthermost west window?

Mrs. Rowland. Yes; the farthermost west pair of windows.

Mr. Belin. The farthermost west pair of windows. What did your husband say to you?

Mrs. Rowland. Well, we assumed that it was a Secret Service man.

Mr. Belin. But what did he say, if you remember?

Mrs. Rowland. He told me that he saw a man there who looked like he was holding a rifle, and that it must be a security man guarding the motorcade.

Mr. Belin. Is there anything else that you can remember that he told you?

Mrs. Rowland. No.

Mr. Belin. What did you do when he told you that?

Mrs. Rowland. Nothing. I just generally agreed with him.

Mr. Belin. What do you mean "generally agree"? Did you see the man?

Mrs. Rowland. No; I didn't see the man, but I said I guess that was what it was.

Mr. Belin. You mean you agreed that he must have been a security officer?

Mrs. Rowland. Yes.

182 Mr. Belin. I notice you are not wearing glasses now. Do you wear glasses?

Mrs. Bowland. Yes; sometimes.

Mr. Belin. Are you near-sighted or far-sighted?

Mrs. Bowland. Near-sighted.

Mr. Belin. Did you have any trouble looking at this window?

Mrs. Bowland. No; I saw the window plainly, and I saw some people hanging, looking out of some other windows, but he said that the man was standing in the background.

Mr. Belin. Did he say about how far back?

Mrs. Bowland. I think he said about 12 feet, I don't know exactly.

Mr. Belin. Did he say how much of the man he could see?

Mrs. Bowland. Apparently he could see at least from the waist up, because he said that the man was wearing a light shirt, and that he was holding the rifle at a port arms position.

Mr. Belin. Did he say whether the man was white or colored?

Mrs. Bowland. He said he thought he was white.

Mr. Belin. Did he say whether the man was an old man or a young man?

Mrs. Bowland. He said a young man.

Mr. Belin. Did he say whether the man was fat or thin?

Mrs. Bowland. He said he was either tall or thin. I mean, if he was tall, he could have been well built, but if he was not very tall, then he was thin.

Mr. Belin. Did he say whether or not the man had on a hat?

Mrs. Bowland. I don't think he said whether he did or not. But if he had seen a hat, I think he would have said so.

Mr. Belin. Did he say what color hair the man had?

Mrs. Bowland. I am not positive.

Mr. Belin. About how many minutes was this before the motorcade came by that he saw this?

Mrs. Bowland. About 15 minutes.

Mr. Belin. Did he say anything else about the man?

Mrs. Bowland. Not that I remember, except that he was wearing a light colored shirt or jacket.

Mr. Belin. Did he say anything about any other people in any other windows?

Mrs. Bowland. No; I don't think so.

Mr. Belin. Now, did you notice any other people standing in any other windows or leaning out?

Mrs. Bowland. I am not sure if I did at that moment.

Mr. Belin. Later on?

Mrs. Bowland. I saw some people either earlier or later looking out the windows.

Mr. Belin. Do you remember anything about any of the people you saw?

Mrs. Bowland. Some of them were colored men. I don't think I saw any women.

Mr. Belin. Did you see any white men?

Mrs. Bowland. I am not positive.

Mr. Belin. Do you remember where you saw any of these Negro men?

Mrs. Bowland. On a lower floor, about the fourth floor, I think, and nearer the center window. The windows nearer the center.

Mr. Belin. On some floor lower than the sixth floor, which you think was the fourth floor?

Mrs. Bowland. About the fourth floor.

Mr. Belin. Did you and your husband comment about these other men?

Mrs. Bowland. We may have said something about there being other people watching, I am not sure.

Mr. Belin. Did you particularly watch the sixth floor because of the fact that you had seen or your husband had seen a person on the sixth floor?

Mrs. Bowland. We looked at it for a few minutes, but we didn't look back, and when we heard the shots, we didn't look back up there. I grabbed his hand and started running toward the car.

Mr. Belin. Let me ask you this now. From the time that you saw or your husband said he saw a man on the southwest part of the sixth floor, which183 you say was about 15 minutes before the motorcade came by, how much longer did you look back up at the building?

Mrs. Rowland. Just about 2 or 3 minutes.

Mr. Belin. After that?

Mrs. Rowland. About 2 minutes.

Mr. Belin. You mean about 2 minutes after that time?

Mrs. Rowland. Yes.

Mr. Belin. So that would be up to a time of about 13 minutes before the motorcade came by?

Mrs. Rowland. Yes.

Mr. Belin. Did you ever look back at the building after that period of time?

Mrs. Rowland. I may have glanced at it, but I don't remember looking back for the purpose of seeing the man.

Mr. Belin. All right, or any man there?

Mrs. Rowland. Any man there.

Mr. Belin. What were you doing from the 13 minutes on before the motorcade came until the time it came?

Mrs. Rowland. Just talking and looking.

Mr. Belin. Where were you looking?

Mrs. Rowland. At the street and the other people, and we talked about some men who were carrying cameras.

Mr. Belin. Now when you were standing watching the motorcade or standing watching the street scene, do you remember if your husband was to your right or to your left? Was he closer towards the School Book Depository Building?

Mrs. Rowland. No; he was to my left most of the time, I think.

Mr. Belin. What was he doing?

Mrs. Rowland. Just standing there talking.

Mr. Belin. Talking to you?

Mrs. Rowland. Yes.

Mr. Belin. Do you know whether or not if he ever looked back at the building?

Mrs. Rowland. I wouldn't know for certain.

Mr. Belin. Did he ever tell you he was looking back at the building?

Mrs. Rowland. No.

Mr. Belin. Did you ever notice him looking back at the building?

Mrs. Rowland. Not that I remember.

Mr. Belin. Was he generally looking at you when he was talking with you?

Mrs. Rowland. Not necessarily. He might have been looking around at the street or at the building.

Mr. Belin. Or at anything?

Mrs. Rowland. Yes.

Mr. Belin. Anything else at that place then that you specifically remember before the motorcade came by? Did your husband say anything about seeing anyone in the building, or did you talk any more about the man with the rifle?

Mrs. Rowland. I really don't remember very much about what happened afterward. I mean it was just——

Mr. Belin. I mean between, in the 15 minutes preceding the motorcade?

Mrs. Rowland. I remember hearing on the radio that the President was passing Ervay Street. It wasn't on our radio, somebody else's radio, and that is about all.

Mr. Belin. Anything else you can think of?

Mrs. Rowland. No.

Mr. Belin. By the way, what color dress were you wearing that day?

Mrs. Rowland. Oh, my, I am fairly certain I was either wearing a green suit or red and gray suit, but I am not positive.

Mr. Belin. What kind of coat, if you were wearing a coat?

Mrs. Rowland. I was wearing a brown coat, brown suede coat.

Mr. Belin. Do you remember what your husband was wearing?

Mrs. Rowland. He was wearing a plaid sports jacket, probably. I am not sure which sports jacket, but I think he was wearing a plaid sports jacket that was blue and had some black and grey in it.

Mr. Belin. Was he wearing any overcoat over the sports jacket?

184 Mrs. Rowland. Oh, no; I wasn't wearing that brown coat, I don't think. I think I was wearing an olive coat. He probably had his overcoat, but it is more of a raincoat.

Mr. Belin. Were you wearing gloves?

Mrs. Rowland. Yes.

Mr. Belin. Was he wearing gloves?

Mrs. Rowland. Yes.

Mr. Belin. Were you wearing a hat?

Mrs. Rowland. No; a scarf.

Mr. Belin. Was he wearing a hat, do you remember?

Mrs. Rowland. He might have been. He wears one sometimes. Sometimes he doesn't.

Mr. Belin. Is there anything else you remember about what happened prior to the time the motorcade came by?

Mrs. Rowland. No.

Mr. Belin. All right, now, will you please tell us what happened as the motorcade went by?

Mrs. Rowland. Well, Mrs. Kennedy was wearing a blue—I mean a pink or maybe a rose—it was either pink or rose dress or suit, I couldn't say, because she was sitting. She had a pink hat or rose, the same shade as her dress.

And I remember noticing that the President's hair was sort of red, that is all. They were facing mainly toward the other side of the street and waving, and as they turned the corner we heard a shot, and I didn't recognize it as being a shot. I just heard a sound, and I thought it might be a firecracker.

And the people started laughing at first, and then we heard two more shots, and they were closer than the first and second, and that is all.

Mr. Belin. How many shots did you hear all told?

Mrs. Rowland. Three.

Mr. Belin. When you said you heard two more shots that were closer than the first and second, what did you mean?

Mrs. Rowland. I meant the second and third were closer than the first and second.

Mr. Belin. Mrs. Rowland, did you have any idea where the shots came from or the sound?

Mrs. Rowland. Well, the people generally ran towards the railroad tracks behind the School Book Depository Building, and so I naturally assumed they came from there, because that is where all the policemen and everyone was going, and I couldn't tell where the sounds came from.

Mr. Belin. So you just started over after them?

Mrs. Rowland. Yes.

Mr. Belin. Did your husband go with you?

Mrs. Rowland. Yes; I grabbed his hand and he couldn't go anyplace else.

Mr. Belin. Were you running or walking over there?

Mrs. Rowland. It wasn't a very fast run, but it wasn't a walk.

Mr. Belin. Did you talk about anything, about the man that you had seen in the window?

Mrs. Rowland. No. But he was reluctant to start running, and he might have been looking up there, I don't know. But we didn't say anything about the man.

Mr. Belin. What did you do when you got over there? Where did you run to?

Mrs. Rowland. To the colonnade over on the north side of Elm Street.

Mr. Belin. As Elm Street goes down to the freeway?

Mrs. Rowland. Yes.

Mr. Belin. Then where did you go?

Mrs. Rowland. We walked towards the railroad tracks, but the policeman wouldn't let anybody go further.

Mr. Belin. Then what did you do?

Mrs. Rowland. We just stood there and he was speculating on what had happened, and he was looking around at everything, and the policeman inspected a Coke drink bottle that was there, and my husband found a pen, very cheap ballpoint pen that you get as an advertisement, and he gave it to185 the policeman, and then he mentioned the man he had seen in the School Book Depository Building, and then the man took us to the records building.

Mr. Belin. Who did your husband mention this to? Was this some police officer?

Mrs. Rowland. I am not certain. The first man he mentioned it to was wearing plain clothes, and we didn't see him again, I don't think. And then there were some other men who took us to the building. I don't know who they were.

Mr. Belin. Then what did you do when you got to the building? Did you stay with your husband?

Mrs. Rowland. Yes.

Mr. Belin. He was questioned in the building?

Mrs. Rowland. Yes.

Mr. Belin. Did you hear what your husband said?

Mrs. Rowland. Yes.

Mr. Belin. Could you describe what went on in the building?

Mrs. Rowland. When we first came in, we went into an office that had glass windows around it. There was a man sitting there with a child. I think it was a boy and he said that he had seen the President shot and he said that—he didn't say there were three shots, I think he said there was one, or maybe he said there were more than three, but he didn't say there were three shots.

Then we went out into an open area in the building, a fairly open area, and there were some reporters in there, and they started asking us questions which we didn't answer, because mainly we didn't have time.

Then we were taken into a very small office and a lady took his written statement and my statement, and there were three other people who came in, three other witnesses who come in.

There were two young men together, and one young lady who came in.

Mr. Belin. All right, now, when you gave your statement to the police and your husband gave his statement to the police, or to whoever the people were taking the statement, do you remember what your husband said?

Mrs. Rowland. Yes. Do I have to tell you again?

Mr. Belin. Well, did he say substantially what you said?

Mrs. Rowland. Yes; I think so.

Mr. Belin. Anything else that he said that you haven't related here?

Mrs. Rowland. I believe he may have said that the man had dark hair. Either he said that the man had dark hair, or he didn't see what color the man's hair was. And he said just about the same thing I said here, I think.

Mr. Belin. All right, anything else that was said there by your husband?

Mrs. Rowland. I don't remember anything else.

Mr. Belin. Did your husband at that time say whether or not he had kept any watch on the window of the School Book Depository Building after he saw this man with the gun?

Mrs. Rowland. No.

Mr. Belin. You mean he——

Mrs. Rowland. He didn't say.

Mr. Belin. Did he say whether or not he had seen any other people in the windows of the School Book Depository Building?

Mrs. Rowland. Yes; I am fairly certain that he said there were other people looking out the windows.

Mr. Belin. Did he say whether or not there were any other people on that same floor looking out the windows?

Mrs. Rowland. I am not certain whether he said or not. But I know there weren't any other people on that floor looking out the windows that could be seen from the outside.

Mr. Belin. How do you know that?

Mrs. Rowland. I mean I know they couldn't be seen from the outside, because I couldn't see them. I am nearsighted.

Mr. Belin. Were you keeping any watch on the building after the time you saw the man with the rifle?

Mrs. Rowland. Well——

Mr. Belin. Did you look up at that building from time to time?

Mrs. Rowland. Well, I didn't pay any special attention to the building, but186 I am sure I glanced at the building more than once afterwards, because I can't just stand and stare in one direction.

Mr. Belin. Do you mean you were just glancing at that building as you were glancing at other places?

Mrs. Rowland. Yes, sir.

Mr. Belin. When you were glancing at that building, do you remember whether you glanced at it, say, within 10 minutes prior to the motorcade?

Mrs. Rowland. I don't remember. But most of the windows on that floor were closed, and the people who were looking out usually were looking out at an open window.

Mr. Belin. Did you see any people look out of any open windows?

Mrs. Rowland. Yes.

Mr. Belin. About how many did you see all told, if you can remember?

Mrs. Roland. Two or three, I think.

Mr. Belin. Any more than two or three looking out of windows?

Mrs. Rowland. Not that I remember.

Mr. Belin. Do you remember whether or not any of those that you saw looking out of windows were looking out of the sixth floor?

Mrs. Rowland. They weren't.

Mr. Belin. They were not? Were they on any floor higher than the sixth floor?

Mrs. Rowland. No.

Mr. Belin. Were they all on floors lower than the sixth floor?

Mrs. Rowland. Yes.

Mr. Belin. Did your husband state in the presence of you at any time while he was giving any of these statements on the afternoon of November 22, whether or not he saw any people looking out of the building?

Mrs. Rowland. Yes.

Mr. Belin. Where did he say he saw them?

Mrs. Rowland. He didn't say exactly where he saw them, but the windows on the floor above the sixth floor were all closed, and I think they were never open.

Mr. Belin. All right. So they wouldn't have been on the seventh floor?

Mrs. Rowland. No.

Mr. Belin. Did he say whether or not he saw any people looking out of any other windows on the sixth floor?

Mrs. Rowland. He didn't say, I don't believe.

Mr. Belin. Did he say what floor? He didn't say whether he did or did not, is that your testimony, or did he say that he did not?

Mrs. Rowland. I don't believe he said whether or not he saw any other people on the sixth floor.

Mr. Belin. What did he say about what he saw? Do you remember about how many people he said he saw looking out of the windows?

Mrs. Rowland. I don't believe he said any certain number of people.

Mr. Belin. Do you remember anything that he said about that?

Mrs. Rowland. He just said that there were some other people looking out of some windows in the same building.

Mr. Belin. Did he specifically locate them in any way?

Mrs. Rowland. No.

Mr. Belin. All right, is there any other thing that your husband said in your presence that afternoon pertaining to this School Book Depository Building?

Mrs. Rowland. No; I don't believe so.

Mr. Belin. How long did you stay over there?

Mrs. Rowland. We were there until about 2:00 or 3:00, I think.

Mr. Belin. Then what did you do?

Mrs. Rowland. Then we left and walked around town and tried to get a newspaper, and before we left, we knew that the President was dead.

From that—for a while, we were in a room alone with a lady who came in to testify, and said that she had seen a blond man carrying a rifle in a rifle bag, and he said that probably it couldn't have been the man he saw because the man he saw was dark-haired.

187 Mr. Belin. Did this woman say where she was—where she saw the blond-haired man?

Mrs. Rowland. I believe she said in front of some sporting goods store. I am not certain.

Mr. Belin. Did she say where the sporting goods store was?

Mrs. Rowland. Some place downtown, but I don't remember exactly.

Mr. Belin. Was it in the immediate vicinity of the School Book Depository Building?

Mrs. Rowland. Meaning?

Mr. Belin. Within a block of it?

Mrs. Rowland. No.

Mr. Belin. Did she say when she saw a blond-haired man carrying a rifle?

Mrs. Rowland. I am not positive exactly what time she said, but it was before, she said, she heard about the President being shot, and she came back there to tell them she had seen a man earlier carrying a gun in a rifle case.

Mr. Belin. She had seen some man, that had blond hair, downtown carrying a gun in a rifle case?

Mrs. Rowland. Yes.

Mr. Belin. That is all she knew?

Mrs. Rowland. Yes, sir.

Mr. Belin. Anything else?

Mrs. Rowland. Well, I believe that is all she knew.

Mr. Belin. Is there anything else that you can add?

Mrs. Rowland. Well, there were two young men who came in too, and they said something about seeing a man carrying a rifle downtown. I believe they also said he was a blond man.

Mr. Belin. Anything else?

Mrs. Rowland. That he was over 6 feet, and he was well built, from what they said, and that is all I know.

Mr. Belin. What did your husband say about that?

Mrs. Rowland. He didn't comment, I don't think.

Mr. Belin. Was there anything else that took place while you and your husband were over giving your statements, that you can think of right now? Anything else that your husband said?

Mrs. Rowland. Not that I remember.

Mr. Belin. All right, then, where did you go?

Mrs. Rowland. We left and we walked in an easterly direction and we went to a coin shop and looked around for a while, and then I went home and he went to work.

Mr. Belin. Where was he working?

Mrs. Rowland. At the Pizza Inn on West Davis. He caught a bus and went to work, and I caught a bus and went home.

Mr. Belin. Then what happened? When did you see him next?

Mrs. Rowland. No, wait a minute, I didn't go home very soon. The bus—there was poor bus service, and I didn't go home until quite, until about 9:00, I think, and I saw him the next morning.

Mr. Belin. Had he been contacted at the Pizza Inn later that night, do you know, or not?

Mrs. Rowland. I don't think so.

Mr. Belin. All right, now, were either you or he contacted at any time during that day by any law enforcement agency?

Mrs. Rowland. I don't think we were contacted the next day.

Mr. Belin. That would have been Saturday?

Mrs. Rowland. Saturday, I know we weren't. I am not positive.

Mr. Belin. When were you next contacted, either on that Saturday or that Sunday?

Mrs. Rowland. I think so. I am not positive.

Mr. Belin. Let me ask you how many times after November 22 were you contacted by some law enforcement agency?

Mrs. Rowland. Me personally?

Mr. Belin. You personally.

188 Mrs. Rowland. I spoke to law enforcement officers about three or four times, I think.

Mr. Belin. About how many times in November? Once on the 22d?

Mrs. Rowland. Yes. And we were contacted once Sunday morning at the Pizza Inn during November. I think it was the next Sunday.

Mr. Belin. The 24th?

Mrs. Rowland. Yes. And we were contacted one morning, I am not positive, I think it might have been that Saturday, the following Saturday, the 23d—the Saturday following the assassination, at my mother's home, and I am not positive how many times.

Mr. Belin. Were you present at any of these times that your husband was contacted?

Mrs. Rowland. Yes.

Mr. Belin. Were you present, for instance, on the Sunday morning, November 24th?

Mrs. Rowland. Yes.

Mr. Belin. Do you remember what your husband said at that time?

Mrs. Rowland. He repeated the statement he had made in the—well, the police officers brought a written statement and asked him if that was in general what he had to say, and he said, "Yes," and they asked him specific questions about it and he answered them.

Mr. Belin. Was there anything else that was said?

Mrs. Rowland. I don't believe so.

Mr. Belin. Was there anything that your husband said that was not on that written statement?

Mrs. Rowland. I am not positive.

Mr. Belin. Do you remember him saying anything—do you remember him telling the police officer that the statement was correct, or do you remember him telling them anything?

Mrs. Rowland. Yes; he signed. There might have been a change or two in the statement and then he signed it and said that he verified that it was correct, to the best of his knowledge.

Mr. Belin. Did he tell the police officer anything that was not on that statement that should be?

Mrs. Rowland. I don't believe so.

Mr. Belin. Was he asked whether or not he saw any other people in any other windows?

Mrs. Rowland. I don't believe he was specifically asked that question.

Mr. Belin. Did he tell any of the police officers that he saw any people in any other windows?

Mrs. Rowland. I am not certain.

Mr. Belin. Do you know whether or not he told them, the police officers, that there was any other person on the sixth floor that he saw?

Mrs. Rowland. He never said that there was another person on the sixth floor, in my presence, that I can remember.

Mr. Belin. Were you present when he was with the police officers?

Mrs. Rowland. At times.

Mr. Belin. On Sunday morning, November 24th?

Mrs. Rowland. Yes.

Mr. Belin. Were you personally with him throughout the time that he was with the police officers?

Mrs. Rowland. Yes.

Mr. Belin. And he, in your presence, never said that he saw anyone on the sixth floor other than the man with the rifle?

Mrs. Rowland. No. He never said in my presence that there was another man other than the man with the rifle on the sixth floor.

Mr. Belin. It is a little bit like there has been asked a negative question and you don't know whether to answer yes or no to the question, is that right, Mrs. Rowland?

Mrs. Rowland. Yes, sir.

Mr. Belin. Now were you present at any subsequent interviews that your husband had with any law enforcement agency?

189 Mrs. Rowland. I was present when Mr. Howlett came to ask, to tell him that he should go to Washington, that he wanted him to go to Washington.

Mr. Belin. What did your husband say to that?

Mrs. Rowland. He said, "Okay."

Mr. Belin. Did he talk to you, by the way, about his testimony when he got back from Washington? Did he talk to you about his testimony in front of the Commission?

Mrs. Rowland. No.

Mr. Belin. Has he ever talked to you about his testimony? Before you came down here, for instance, has he talked to you about what he said in front of the Commission?

Mrs. Rowland. Not that I remember.

Mr. Belin. Going back to his interview with the police, do you know how many interviews he had after the one on Sunday, November 24?

Mrs. Rowland. I think he had about six or eight interviews in all. I mean all inclusive.

Mr. Belin. Would that include the one with Mr. Howlett telling him to go to Washington?

Mrs. Rowland. Yes. I am not positive of the number.

Mr. Belin. Let me ask you this. From November 24 to November 30, that week, do you know how many interviews he had?

Mrs. Rowland. No; I don't know.

Mr. Belin. Now, has he ever told you that he had seen anyone else on the sixth floor other than this man with the gun that you described in the southwest corner window?

Mrs. Rowland. No, sir.

Mr. Belin. Has he ever told you that he told anyone else that he saw anyone else on the sixth floor?

Mrs. Rowland. No, sir.

Mr. Belin. Did your husband ever complain to you that he was being questioned too much by any law enforcement agency?

Mrs. Rowland. I don't think so, not that I remember.

Mr. Belin. Did he ever complain to you that any statement that he gave was not taken down?

Mrs. Rowland. Not that I remember.

Mr. Belin. Was there any complaint that he ever made to you about law enforcement agencies?

Mrs. Rowland. Not about the law enforcement agencies, but in the Dallas Morning News on February 11, 14—11th or 14th, they had an article in there, and they had some things in the article that he didn't say.

Mr. Belin. Like what?

Mrs. Rowland. Like that the man was good looking. I mean, because he said he couldn't recognize the man. That is what he told me.

Mr. Belin. Apart from what the Dallas Morning News said, then, did he have any complaints about his contacts with either the FBI or Secret Service or the sheriffs office or the city police of Dallas?

Mrs. Rowland. None that I remember.

Mr. Belin. Mrs. Rowland, you made a statement toward the beginning part of this deposition that your husband said that he had all A's, but that you knew different, because you had seen the report card.

Mrs. Rowland. He said he had an A average.

Mr. Belin. But that you knew different?

Mrs. Rowland. Well, he may have had an A average overall A average, but some of his cards didn't have A's altogether.

Mr. Belin. Well, you mentioned that he had A's and B's and some C's and some D's?

Mrs. Rowland. The one I saw.

Mr. Belin. Do you remember what years those would have been for?

Mrs. Rowland. No, sir.

Mr. Belin. Sometimes some people are prone to exaggerate more than others, and without in any way meaning to take away from the testimony of your190 husband as to what he saw in the building at the time, just from your general experience, do you feel you can rely on everything that your husband says?

Mrs. Rowland. I don't feel that I can rely on everything anybody says.

Mr. Belin. Well, this is really an unfair question for me to ask any wife about her husband, and I am not asking it very correctly, but——

Mrs. Rowland. At times my husband is prone to exaggerate. Does that answer it?

Mr. Belin. I think it does.

Is there anything else you want to add to that, or not?

Mrs. Rowland. Usually his exaggerations are not concerned with anything other than himself. They are usually to boast his ego. They usually say that he is really smarter than he is, or he is a better salesman than he is, something like that.

Mr. Belin. Anything else you care to add?

Mrs. Rowland. No, sir.

Mr. Belin. Again, I apologize for any—for in any way trying to embarrass you or anything, but your husband did see a man on the sixth floor and it is important for us to try and find out everything we can to test his accuracy as to what he saw, and so this is why I have been asking these questions.

You and I have never met before?

Mrs. Rowland. Not that I ever remember.

Mr. Belin. When we did meet, I immediately brought you in here and we started taking your deposition under oath, isn't that true?

Mrs. Rowland. Yes, sir.

Mr. Belin. We didn't chat about anything before we started taking your deposition, did we?

Mrs. Rowland. No.

Mr. Belin. Now you mentioned the fact that the newspaper misquoted your husband?

Mrs. Rowland. Yes, sir.

Mr. Belin. Is there any other time when you know that he complained about being misquoted insofar as the facts of the assassination are concerned?

Mrs. Rowland. When we had our first written statement, the police officer, I believe he was an FBI agent, restated everything we said, and it was typed in the—in that form. But he also asked if it was, if that was the general meaning of what we had said, so he didn't complain. But anyway, it wasn't in his exact words, I mean.

Mr. Belin. Was there anything inaccurate about the statement?

Mrs. Rowland. No; I don't think so.

Mr. Belin. Did your husband ever make any complaints to you about anything inaccurate in any statements that he had given?

Mrs. Rowland. If he did, I don't remember it.

Mr. Belin. Is there anything else that you can think of that might in any way be relevant to this whole area of inquiry?

Mrs. Rowland. No, sir.

Mr. Belin. Let me ask you this. Did you or your husband rather, ever see a picture of Lee Harvey Oswald on television?

Mrs. Rowland. I saw either the actual shooting on television of Mr. Oswald or either a rerun, and I saw his picture in the newspaper, but I don't know if my husband ever saw it or not.

But he did—we heard on the radio the afternoon of the assassination that Lee Harvey Oswald had been accused of the shooting.

Mr. Belin. Did you or your husband know anyone by the name of Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. Rowland. No, sir.

Mr. Belin. Did you or your husband know Jack Ruby?

Mrs. Rowland. Not to my knowledge, I never have known him, and I don't think he has. If he has, he never told me.

Mr. Belin. Anything else you can think of?

Mrs. Rowland. No, sir.

Mr. Belin. Well, we certainly appreciate your coming down here. You have been most helpful, Mrs. Rowland.

191 One final thing. You have an opportunity to either come back and read what the court reporter has, the transcript after it is typed, and sign it, or else you can waive coming down and taking the time to read it and sign it, and have it go directly to Washington.

Do you care to come down to read it?

Mrs. Rowland. Yes, sir.

Mr. Belin. If you like to, you have every right to do so.

Mrs. Rowland. Yes; I would.

Mr. Belin. You will be contacted then, and you can come down and read it and make any corrections, if you like.

Mrs. Rowland. Yes; could I, other than making corrections have it rewritten in better English?

Mr. Belin. No, I'm afraid my English at times isn't very good, Mrs. Rowland, and we have to let it go the way it is right now. By corrections, I mean anything where you feel the court reporter might not have accurately transcribed the words that you and I said here.

Mrs. Rowland. Yes, sir.

Mr. Belin. If either one used bad grammar, the English teachers will have to look down their noses at us.

Thank you.

Mrs. Rowland. Thank you.


TESTIMONY OF RONALD B. FISCHER

The testimony of Ronald B. Fischer was taken at 11:20 a.m., on April 1, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. Belin. Mr. Fischer, will you rise to be sworn, please, and raise your right hand?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. Fischer. I do.

Mr. Belin. Will you please state your name?

Mr. Fischer. Ronald B. Fischer.

Mr. Belin. And where do you live, Mr. Fischer?

Mr. Fischer. 4007 Flamingo Way, Mesquite, Tex.

Mr. Belin. Is this a suburb of Dallas?

Mr. Fischer. Yes.

Mr. Belin. What is your occupation?

Mr. Fischer. I'm an auditor.

Mr. Belin. For whom?

Mr. Fischer. Dallas County auditor.

Mr. Belin. And where do you work?

Mr. Fischer. I work at 407 records building.

Mr. Belin. And where is the records building?

Mr. Fischer. That's in Dallas.

Mr. Belin. Where in Dallas?

Mr. Fischer. It covers one square block area bounded by Main, Record, Elm, and Houston.

Mr. Belin. How old are you, Mr. Fischer?

Mr. Fischer. Twenty-five.

Mr. Belin. Married?

Mr. Fischer. Yes.

Mr. Belin. Children?

Mr. Fischer. Two.

Mr. Belin. Did you go to school here in Dallas?

Mr. Fischer. Yes—high school, yes.

192 Mr. Belin. What high school did you go to?

Mr. Fischer. W. W. Samuell.

Mr. Belin. Did you complete high school or not?

Mr. Fischer. Yes.

Mr. Belin. Have you participated in any postgraduate work since you graduated from high school?

Mr. Fischer. Yes.

Mr. Belin. What is that?

Mr. Fischer. I've taken courses toward an accounting degree at Arlington State College, Arlington, Tex.

Mr. Belin. Are these correspondence courses or have you actually attended the school?

Mr. Fischer. No; I've attended the school.

Mr. Belin. How long did you attend that school?

Mr. Fischer. I attended 1 year, full time and I attended 1 year, night school.

Mr. Belin. And what have you done since after you left Arlington?

Mr. Fischer. All of the time since I've left Arlington, I've been working for the Dallas County auditor—with the exception of a correspondence course that I'm taking at the present time.

Mr. Belin. Well, by that, you mean you're still working full time but you are taking the correspondence course also?

Mr. Fischer. Yes.

Mr. Belin. You have been working for 4 or 5 years for the auditor's office?

Mr. Fischer. Five years.

Mr. Belin. Now, Mr. Fischer, I want to take you back to November 22, 1963, and ask you if you remember watching or getting ready to watch, the Presidential motorcade on that day? Do you remember that?

Mr. Fischer. Yes.

Mr. Belin. And were you with anyone else, or not?

Mr. Fischer. Bob Edwards—he works in the same office that I do.

Mr. Belin. Does he work there now?

Mr. Fischer. No; he doesn't. At the present time, he's attending a college in Oklahoma but I don't remember the name. It's in Tahlequah, I believe. I don't know the name of the college.

Mr. Belin. Could that be—I think it's [spelling] T-a-h-l-e-q-u-a-h?

Mr. Fischer. I think that's it.

Mr. Belin. Now, when did you and Mr. Edwards leave your place of employment on that day to watch the motorcade?

Mr. Fischer. Oh, about—well, let's see. We got off for lunch at a quarter of twelve and Mr. Lynn, our boss, said that we could take—go ahead and go on down the street after we got through with lunch, in other words, don't come back to the office after lunch. Just go on down the street and watch the parade. Everybody was due back after the parade was over.

Mr. Belin. Uh-huh.

Mr. Fischer. So, I went to lunch at a quarter of twelve, and ate until about 12 o'clock, and then Bob and I went down to the street—oh, 5 or 10 after 12—and we stood, at first, on Main Street right outside the records building. And then about 12:15 or 12:20, we were trying to find a place where we could see better, so we walked down to Houston and then one block down Houston to Elm and stood there until the parade came by.

Mr. Belin. Now, do you know when you got to corner of Houston and Elm—approximately?

Mr. Fischer. About 12:20.

Mr. Belin. 12:20?

Mr. Fischer. Yes, sir.

Mr. Belin. And where were you standing on the corner of Houston and Elm?

Mr. Fischer. We were standing right on the curb—uh—on the southwest corner of Elm and Houston.

Mr. Belin. Where were you with relation to that lagoon that's there?

Mr. Fischer. Well, that lagoon is rather long. We were standing in front of it, across the sidewalk. I believe it's the curb and the sidewalk and this193 little bit of grass, and then the lagoon. And we were standing right on the curb there.

Mr. Belin. You were standing on the curb at about the point where the actual curve of the curb is at the intersection—or not?

Mr. Fischer. I'd say where the curb starts to curve. Because, when the shots were fired, we looked around at the motorcade and couldn't see it—because—uh—of the people that were standing along the curb there. We just couldn't see it. Had we been on further around, we could have just looked down the street and seen it.

Mr. Belin. So, you would have been really standing on the curb which would be the west curb of Houston Street, just where it starts to make the curve to go onto Elm there. Is that correct?

Mr. Fischer. That's correct.

Mr. Belin. Now, would you describe what you saw as you were standing on that curb?

Mr. Fischer. About 10 or 15 seconds before the parade—first car of the parade came around the corner.

Mr. Belin. Now what corner is that?

Mr. Fischer. Of Houston and Main.

Mr. Belin. Uh-huh.

Mr. Fischer. Which would have been the first time we could have seen any of the cars because of the building—about 10 or 15 seconds before the first car came around that corner, Bob punched me and said, "Look at that guy there in that window." And he made some remark—said, "He looks like he's uncomfortable"—or something.

And I looked up and I watched the man for, oh, I'd say, 10 or 15 seconds. It was until the first car came around the corner of Houston and Main. And, then, when that car did come around the corner, I took my attention off of the man in the window and started watching the parade. The man held my attention for 10 or 15 seconds, because he appeared uncomfortable for one, and, secondly, he wasn't watching—uh—he didn't look like he was watching for the parade. He looked like he was looking down toward the Trinity River and the triple underpass down at the end—toward the end of Elm Street. And—uh—all the time I watched him, he never moved his head, he never—he never moved anything. Just was there transfixed.

Mr. Belin. In what window did you see the man?

Mr. Fischer. It was the corner window on Houston Street facing Elm, in the fifth or sixth floor.

Mr. Belin. On what side of the—first of all, what building was this you saw him in?

Mr. Fischer. The Texas School Book Depository Building.

Mr. Belin. And what side of the building would the window have been in?

Mr. Fischer. It would have been—well, as you're looking toward the front of the building, it would have been to your right.

Mr. Belin. Well, the building itself has four sides—a north, east, south, and a west side—the entire sides of the building. Would this have been the north, south, east, or west side of the building?

Mr. Fischer. It would have been the south side—the entrance.

Mr. Belin. All right. Now, on that south side of the building—now, was it the center part of the south side, the east part of the south side, or the west part of the south side?

Mr. Fischer. The east part of the south side.

Mr. Belin. All right.

Now, with reference to the east corner of the south side there—would it have been the first window next to that corner, the second, the third, or the fourth—or what?

Mr. Fischer. First window.

Mr. Belin. From the east corner of the south side?

Mr. Fischer. Yes.

Mr. Belin. Do you remember anything about the man? Could you describe his appearance at all? First of all, how much of him could you see?

194 Mr. Fischer. I could see from about the middle of his chest past the top of his head.

Mr. Belin. All right.

Mr. Fischer. He was in the—as you're looking toward that window, he was in the lower right portion of the window. He seemed to be sitting a little forward.

And he had—he had on an open-neck shirt, but it—uh—could have been a sport shirt or a T-shirt. It was light in color; probably white, I couldn't tell whether it had long sleeves or whether it was a short-sleeved shirt, but it was open-neck and light in color.

Uh—he had a slender face and neck—uh—and he had a light complexion—he was a white man. And he looked to be 22 or 24 years old.

Mr. Belin. Do you remember anything about the color of his hair?

Mr. Fischer. His hair seemed to be—uh—neither light nor dark; possibly a light—well, possibly a—well, it was a brown was what it was; but as to whether it was light or dark, I can't say.

Mr. Belin. Did he have a thick head of hair or did he have a receding hair-line—or couldn't you tell?

Mr. Fischer. I couldn't tell. He couldn't have had very long hair, because his hair didn't seem to take up much space—of what I could see of his head. His hair must have been short and not long.

Mr. Belin. Well, did you see a full view of his face or more of a profile of it, or what was it?

Mr. Fischer. I saw it at an angle but, at the same time, I could see—I believe I could see the tip of his right cheek as he looked to my left.

Mr. Belin. Now, could you be anything more definite as to what direction he was looking at?

Mr. Fischer. He looked to me like he was looking straight at the triple underpass.

Mr. Belin. Down what street?

Mr. Fischer. Elm Street.

Mr. Belin. Down Elm?

Mr. Fischer. Toward the end of Elm Street.

Mr. Belin. As it angles there and goes under the triple underpass there?

Mr. Fischer. Yes, sir.

Mr. Belin. Could you see his hands?

Mr. Fischer. No.

Mr. Belin. Could you see whether or not he was holding anything?

Mr. Fischer. No; I couldn't see.

Mr. Belin. Could you see any other objects in the window?

Mr. Fischer. There were boxes and cases stacked all the way from the bottom to the top and from the left to the right behind him. It looked—uh—it's possible that there weren't cases directly behind him because I couldn't see because of him. But—uh—all the rest of the window—a portion behind the window—there were boxes. It looked like there was space for a man to walk through there between the window and the boxes. But there were boxes in the window, or close to the window there.

Mr. Belin. Could you see any other people in any other windows there that you remember?

Mr. Fischer. I couldn't see any other people in the windows. I don't remember seeing any others.

Mr. Belin. By this, do you mean that you are sure there were none, or that you just do not remember seeing any?

Mr. Fischer. I don't remember seeing any.

Mr. Belin. Now, after you saw the man, then the motorcade turned onto Houston from Main—is that correct?

Mr. Fischer. Yes.

Mr. Belin. Did you ever see the man again in the window?

Mr. Fischer. No.

Mr. Belin. Did you ever look back at the window?

Mr. Fischer. I never looked back at the window.

Mr. Belin. Well, could you describe what happened as you watched the195 motorcade turn? First, about how fast did the motorcade appear to be going?

Mr. Fischer. When the motorcade passed me, it was—uh—the driver was in process of making the wide turn there from Houston to Elm, and he was going very slow. I'd say, uh—10–15 miles an hour.

Mr. Belin. All right.

Then what happened?

Mr. Fischer. Well, the motorcade—the limousine made the wide turn and—uh—they went out of our view just as they began to straighten up onto Elm Street because there were people standing along the curb all the way around—and that's when the limousine went out of my view and I started watching the other cars behind the Presidential limousine.

Mr. Belin. And then what happened?

Mr. Fischer. Well, as I looked around to watch these other cars, I heard a shot. At first I thought it was a firecracker. And—uh—everybody got quiet. There was no yelling or shouting or anything. Everything seemed to get real still. And—uh—the second shot rang out, and then everybody—from where I was standing—everybody started to scatter. And—uh—then the third shot.

At first, I thought there were four, but as I think about it more, there must have been just three.

Mr. Belin. At first, you thought there were four shots?

Mr. Fischer. Yes.

Mr. Belin. Now, you said the first one you thought was a firecracker?

Mr. Fischer. Yes.

Mr. Belin. What about the second one? Did you think that was a firecracker, too?

Mr. Fischer. No. When the second shot rang out. It was too much like the first to be a firecracker. I have heard high-powered rifles fire before. The—uh—first shot fooled me, I think, because of the sound bouncing off the buildings. But the second shot was too much like the first and it was too loud—both shots were too loud to be a firecracker. And I knew it was a shot.

Mr. Belin. Have you had any experience with high-powered rifles before?

Mr. Fischer. Very little; but I have shot several.

Mr. Belin. What about the third shot? Did you think that was a firecracker or what?

Mr. Fischer. No; I knew it was a shot, too. I knew someone was shooting at something. Uh—it didn't—it still didn't dawn on me that anyone would try to shoot at the President, but I knew that somebody was shooting at something. I didn't know whether it was a real pistol or a real rifle—but I knew somebody was shooting a firearm.

Mr. Belin. Where did the shots appear to be coming from?

Mr. Fischer. They appeared to be coming from just west of the School Book Depository Building. There were some railroad tracks and there were some railroad cars back in there.

Mr. Belin. And they appeared to be coming from those railroad cars?

Mr. Fischer. Well, that area somewhere. From where I was standing, I couldn't see the cars themselves until I had run across the street and up the hill.

Mr. Belin. The shots seemed to be how far apart?

Mr. Fischer. That's hard to say. I've been thinking about that. And-uh—I'd guess—3 to 4 seconds.

Mr. Belin. Was that between the first and the second or between the second and the third?

Mr. Fischer. Between both. As far as I can remember, the shots were evenly spaced.

Mr. Belin. Is there anything else about the shots that you remember?

Mr. Fischer. No—only that they were very loud.

Mr. Belin. Anything else about the man in the window that you remember?

Mr. Fischer. (Pausing before reply.) No.

Mr. Belin. All right. What did you do or see or hear after you hear the shots?

Mr. Fischer. After the second shot we, Bob and I both, started running down196 the sidewalk on Elm Street, on the south side of Elm, and there were still people that were milling around and shuffling around. When the second shot broke, like I say, a lot of people started running, some people still stood but a lot of people started running. Uh—and then when the third shot went off, we just almost reached the curb and then just as the limousine went under the triple underpass, we got to the street—Elm Street—where we could actually see—uh—well—where the shots had gone, and—uh—we ran across the street where there were a man, his wife and two children laying on the ground. Now, that was on the north side of Elm Street about halfway between Houston and the triple underpass and we ran down there where this man and his wife and two boys were. Someone was helping them up off the ground, and the man said at that time that the President had been shot.

And, after that, we stood there for 10 or 15 seconds and then we ran up to the top of the hill there where all the Secret Service men had run, thinking that that's where the bullets had come from since they seemed to be searching that area over there. They jumped off—out of cars and ran up the side of the hill there and onto the tracks where these passenger—freight cars were.

Mr. Belin. Anything else that you remember?

Mr. Fischer. (Pausing before reply.) No.

Mr. Belin. What did you do after that, then?

Mr. Fischer. After that, we went back up to the building where we work—the records building—and went on upstairs to the office. And that's where Bob and I separated and—he had some things to do—I think he had some stuff that had to go down to another office and he left. After we got up there, he got some paper and then left. I stayed there for a little while and——

Mr. Belin. Well, first of all, about when did you get back to the records building do you feel?

Mr. Fischer. Uh—it must have been 5—5 minutes after the first shot was fired. Something like that.

Mr. Belin. All right. When you went back there, did you walk by the front of the Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mr. Fischer. No; when we went back, we came—we went back the same way we came. We went straight across Elm and then up to Houston on the south side of Elm, and then crossed.

Mr. Belin. Did you notice whether or not people were going in or coming out of the School Book Depository Building?

Mr. Fischer. There seemed to be a lot of people around—uh—the front; but, of course, there were a lot of people all over the street.

Mr. Belin. All right. You got back up to the building—the records building—and then what did you do?

Mr. Fischer. Well, as I said, we went up to the fourth floor to our office. Uh—I stayed there for 5 or 10 minutes. Bob had left. And then I went next door in the purchasing department where they've got a radio. I was trying to—I didn't—I don't guess I really believed yet that it had happened—that the President had been shot. And—uh—I was trying to find out on the radio just exactly what did happen.

And I stayed in the purchasing department 5 minutes or so—well, 5 or 10 minutes, and then I went back down the hall where some people had a radio standing out in the hall. They had another station on, and still nobody knew anything.

Then, I went back to the office about—oh, maybe 5 or 10 minutes till 1, and-uh—we heard a bunch of sirens, police cars, and leaned out the window, and police cars were all surrounding the Texas School Book Depository Building. And when I saw all that and saw the detectives in the window, the officers, I knew that—I realized that the shots—that they must have the assassin in there or the man who did the shooting—or something was wrong with the building.

So, I realized then that it possibly was the man I saw since he was the only one I remember in a window and that it had something to do with the building—that it's possible that the man I saw had something to do with it.

About that time a deputy from the sheriff's office came up and asked me if I was Ronald Fischer, and I said, "Yes;" and he said that Sheriff Decker wanted to see me in his office right now.

197 Mr. Belin. About what time was this now?

Mr. Fischer. This was at—oh—1 o'clock on or about 1 o'clock.

Mr. Belin. You then went to Sheriff Decker's office?

Mr. Fischer. I went to Decker's office and—uh—Bob Edwards was in there. He looked up—and he had given them my name and told them—at least, this is what he told me—that he told them that we had both been standing there together and had seen this man in the window of the School Book Depository Building. So, that's why they came to get me—because he had told them.

There were a lot of other people in the office—12 or 15 other people. They all seemed to be connected with it in some way or another. And I noticed, too, in Sheriff Decker's office was this man and woman and two boys that we had talked to down the street there on Elm that had hit the ground when the shots started.

Mr. Belin. Now, this man that you saw in the window—did he appear to be standing or sitting—or couldn't you tell?

Mr. Fischer. He must not have been standing because I don't think the floor was that far away. He could have been standing—I'll take that back. He would have had to have been crouched over. He didn't look like he was crouched over or bent over. He must have been—I'm guessing—but I'm thinking he must have been on his knees or maybe sitting, on a box maybe. But he—I don't think that it's possible that he was standing.

Mr. Belin. Was he sitting or crouching, or whatever he was doing, in a straight-up position?

Mr. Fischer. No; he was leaning forward slightly.

Mr. Belin. About how far forward was he leaning—or couldn't you tell?

Mr. Fischer. Oh, it was slightly—enough to where I could tell, but—oh—his head wasn't out of the window and his head wasn't past the window sill. If he had been much further back in, it would have been hard for me to see him at all.

Mr. Belin. Now, sometime afterwards, you signed a written statement at the sheriff's office—is that it?

Mr. Fischer. Yes.

Mr. Belin. And, later, did some policemen bring out a picture of an individual and ask you to try and identify him?

Mr. Fischer. Yes.

Mr. Belin. Did they tell you whose picture it was?

Mr. Fischer. Yes.

Mr. Belin. Whose picture did they say it was?

Mr. Fischer. Well, they actually showed me two pictures—one of Lee Harvey Oswald, and one of Jack Ruby.

Mr. Belin. All right. And what did you say?

Mr. Fischer. I told them that that could have been the man.

Mr. Belin. Now, which one did you say could have been the man?

Mr. Fischer. Lee Harvey Oswald. That that could have been the man that I saw in the window of the School Book Depository Building, but that I was not sure. It's possible that a man fit the general description that I gave—but I can't say for sure.

Mr. Belin. Was there anything different—do you remember the picture?—between the picture you saw and the man you saw in the window?

Mr. Fischer. Yes; one thing—and that is in the picture he looked like he hadn't shaved in several days at least. And—uh—I don't know whether at that distance, looking at him from the street in the School Book Depository Building—if I could have been able to—if I could have seen that. I think, if he had been unshaven in the window, it would have made his complexion appear—well—rather dark; but I remember his complexion was light; that is, unless he had just a light beard.

Mr. Belin. Was the sun shining on his face when you saw him in the window or not—or don't you remember?

Mr. Fischer. No; uh—no the sun wasn't shining on his face. He was back in the shadow of the window.

Mr. Belin. When did the policeman come out with this picture—on the same day or on the next day?

198 Mr. Fischer. No; it was—uh—no, it was several days after. I can't remember whether it was a week or 2 weeks or—it was at least a week. I don't remember exactly when it was but it was a week, at least.

Mr. Belin. Let me ask you this: Was there anything else different between the man you saw in the picture and the man you saw in the window?

Mr. Fischer. (Pausing before reply.) No.

Mr. Belin. What about the color of his hair? Do you remember what the color of the hair was of the man in the picture?

Mr. Fischer. Yes; it was brown. It was a darker shade of brown but it was definitely brown.

Mr. Belin. What do you mean, "a darker shade of brown?"

Mr. Fischer. Well, it wasn't—it wasn't—uh—well, I guess there are a lot of shades of brown. But it wasn't—uh—it wasn't a light brown. It was a—in the picture it showed up as definitely a darker brown. I can't think of anything to compare it to.

Mr. Belin. Well, when you saw the man in the window, did he appear to have light brown hair, dark brown, medium brown—or what kind of hair did he have?

Mr. Fischer. Well, it wasn't dark and it wasn't light. Uh—he didn't have black hair and he didn't have blonde hair. It—uh—must have been a brown but, like I say, there are a lot of different shades of brown and I'm not—I can't—it's hard for me to say just exactly what shade of brown I saw that he had. I know what shade he had in the picture but——

Mr. Belin. Well, I hand you a copy of a statement which I believe—at least has the signature on it—and ask you to see if this looks like it's your signature?

Mr. Fischer. [After perusing paper.] Yes.

Mr. Belin. All right. I'm going to call this "Fischer Deposition Exhibit No. 1," and ask you to read this statement, which appears to be dated November 22, 1963, and ask you to state if there's anything in that statement that does not appear to be accurate.

(Thereupon, the statement of Mr. Fischer dated Nov. 22, 1963, is identified as "Fischer Deposition Exhibit No. 1.)

Mr. Fischer. You want me to read this now?

Mr. Belin. You can just read it to yourself and then you can tell me when you get through whether or not there is anything in that statement that doesn't appear to be accurate.

Mr. Fischer. [After reading Exhibit No. 1.] That is correct.

Mr. Belin. Is this what you told these people there?

Mr. Fischer. Yes.

Mr. Belin. Now, in this statement it says that the man appeared to be in his twenties—is that what you told them?

Mr. Fischer. Yes.

Mr. Belin. It says that all you could see was his head, now you've told me here today that you could see his chest?

Mr. Fischer. Yes; from the middle of his chest up. I could see his shoulders.

Uh—the man taking that particular piece of paper was a court reporter in the records building, and he didn't—he didn't relate—he had about 12 of these things to take—well, yeah, 12 or 15—however many people there were in the sheriff's office at that time. And he was, like I say, he was in a hurry to get it down and I said I could see his head—and, so, he put that down. And that is right. I could see his head.

Mr. Belin. The statement here says that he was light-headed and that he had on an open-neck shirt. Did he have an open-neck shirt on?

Mr. Fischer. Yes.

Mr. Belin. Now, what about being light-headed?

Mr. Fischer. By "light-headed," I meant that he didn't have black hair. He didn't have dark—he didn't have—well, when I say "dark," I mean black. He didn't have black hair. He didn't have blonde hair. When I said, "light-headed," I didn't mean blonde—or I would have said that, but—uh.

Mr. Belin. What color of hair did you mean? Did you say "light-headed"?

199 Mr. Fischer. I believe I did say "light-headed"—because I didn't—like I say—I didn't want it to appear that he was dark.

Mr. Belin. By "dark," what color do you mean?

Mr. Fischer. Black.

Mr. Belin. Well, once again, I'll ask you, to the best of your recollection, what color hair did he have?

Mr. Fischer. Uh—like I say, it's too hard for me to—uh—to tell one way or the other. At the distance I was, uh—it's just—it's just too hard for me to—I'm not going to say it because I don't know for sure, just exactly what shade of hair he did have. It wasn't blonde and it wasn't black. Somewhere in between. And it was a shade of brown that as to whether it was a dark brown, a light brown, a medium brown, or whatever you call it—I don't know.

Mr. Belin. All right.

The statement says that you saw him in the window there. Do you remember how far the window was open?

Mr. Fischer. The window was open almost all the way open if not, all the way open.

Mr. Belin. By that "all the way"—when you have a window all the way open of that kind, of course, you just have a half of the window case that is open. Is that correct?

Mr. Fischer. That's right, You still have half an area of the opening covered by glass.

Mr. Belin. Was it the bottom area that was open or the top area?

Mr. Fischer. The bottom area. The window looked to be—uh—a window that raised from the bottom up.

Mr. Belin. And it appeared to be almost as fully open as you could, or fully open?

Mr. Fischer. Or fully open. Yes—Or I wouldn't have been able to see the cases and see past the top of his head had it not been—and his shoulders.

Mr. Belin. Now, on this written statement it says that you remember a tall girl walking into the School Book Depository Building there at about the time you saw the man?

Mr. Fischer. Yes.

Mr. Belin. Did you see such a girl walk in the building?

Mr. Fischer. I can't remember. It must have been before. It must have been just before—uh—I saw the man in the window. I can't remember very well. It's been too long. I believe it was before I saw the man in the window that I saw her walk into the building. Like I say, I made a mental note of it but I didn't pay too much attention at the time.

Mr. Belin. Now, sometime later, after November 22, you were interviewed by the FBI. Do you remember that?

Mr. Fischer. Yes; in the records building.

Mr. Belin. And did the FBI man have any pictures with him at all, or not?

Mr. Fischer. I don't remember whether he had pictures or not. It seems like he did.

Mr. Belin. Could you identify the man you saw in the window from any of the pictures?

Mr. Fischer. Uh—not—in fact, I believe they asked me—I believe they did have pictures of him. It seems like I recall them asking me if it could have been the picture that they identified as Lee Harvey Oswald, or if it could have been the picture of Jack Ruby.

Mr. Belin. Now what did you say about the Jack Ruby picture?

Mr. Fischer. I told them that I didn't think it could be him because—uh—he didn't—he didn't have near enough hair, it didn't look like to me.

Mr. Belin. What about his build?

Mr. Fischer. And that, too. His face was just a little—uh—fat; whereas-uh—Oswald's picture was rather a slender face and neck.

Mr. Belin. Did the man you saw in the window have a high forehead or a low forehead—or do you remember?

Mr. Fischer. I can't—I can't remember seeing that—uh—that well. I don't know if I could have—if I saw it now, whether I could tell you whether he had a large forehead or not.

200 Mr. Belin. Do you have any estimate of how far you were from that window when you saw him?

Mr. Fischer. Uh—from the point where I was standing when I saw him in the window to him, it must have been, I would say, at least a hundred feet.

Mr. Belin. All right. Now, did you ever tell anyone, or might you have told them, that you saw this person a minute or two before you saw the motorcade, rather than as you told us here today, 15 or 20 seconds before you first saw the motorcade?

Mr. Fischer. Yes.

Mr. Belin. Did you ever tell anyone it was a minute or two before you saw the motorcade?

Mr. Fischer. Well, I might have said "a minute or two" in just terms. I don't remember saying that but.

Mr. Belin. But what is the——

Mr. Fischer. Shortly before.

Mr. Belin. Shortly?

Mr. Fischer. Shortly before.

Mr. Belin. Do you definitely remember that it was this 15 or 20 seconds or so before you saw the motorcade, or might it have been a minute or two before you saw the motorcade?

Mr. Fischer. I don't think it was over a minute. It could—it was less than a minute—because, as I recall, that's what—that's the reason I turned my attention from him and I looked back down the street.

Mr. Belin. All right. Is there anything else you can think of that bears on the assassination, or anything you saw or did or heard that you haven't related here?

Mr. Fischer. (Pausing before reply.) No.

Mr. Belin. Did you say "No"?

Mr. Fischer. No—I can't think of anything.

Mr. Belin. Shortly before this interview began, you and I met for the first time—is that correct?

Mr. Fischer. Yes.

Mr. Belin. And we first chatted a few minutes about what you saw before we started taking your testimony on the record?

Mr. Fischer. Yes.

Mr. Belin. What is the fact as to whether or not I asked you to tell me your story or whether or not, instead, I asked you questions and tried to, in any way, lead you—or so forth?

Mr. Fischer. I answered the questions as I think that I saw the events happen—as I saw the events happen. I was not quizzed on what to say or anything of that nature. I've merely related what I think that I saw.

Mr. Belin. Is there anything that you told me of before we started taking the deposition that has not been included in this deposition—that you can think of?

Mr. Fischer. [Pausing before reply.] No; not that I can think of.

Mr. Belin. All right.

I believe that ends the deposition.

I want to thank you for your courtesy in coming here, Mr. Fischer. We appreciate your taking the time to do it. And we would also appreciate your conveying our appreciation to the Dallas County Auditor for letting you take this time off. Will you do that, please?

Mr. Fischer. Yes; and thank you.


201

TESTIMONY OF ROBERT EDWIN EDWARDS

The testimony of Robert Edwin Edwards was taken at 11 a.m., on April 9, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. Belin. Would you stand and raise your right hand and be sworn, please.

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. Edwards. I do.

Mr. Belin. Your name, please?

Mr. Edwards. Robert Edwin Edwards.

Mr. Belin. Where do you live, Mr. Edwards?

Mr. Edwards. Tahlequah, Okla.

Mr. Belin. What do you do up there?

Mr. Edwards. I am going to school, college, Northeastern State College.

Mr. Belin. What year of school are you in? Are you a freshman?

Mr. Edwards. No; I am a senior.

Mr. Belin. You are a senior.

Mr. Edwards. Right.

Mr. Belin. You have been going up to school there for several years?

Mr. Edwards. Two years I went there. I laid out last year and worked here in Dallas.

Mr. Belin. Are you originally from Dallas?

Mr. Edwards. No; Graham, Tex.

Mr. Belin. Where did you go to school?

Mr. Edwards. Graham High School in Graham, Tex.

Mr. Belin. What did you do when you got out of school?

Mr. Edwards. I attended Abilene College.

Mr. Belin. For a year?

Mr. Edwards. One year.

Mr. Belin. Then what?

Mr. Edwards. Decatur Baptist College, which is a junior college.

Mr. Belin. Then what did you do?

Mr. Edwards. Northeastern State College in Tahlequah, Okla.

Mr. Belin. Laid out last year?

Mr. Edwards. Yes; I am finishing up this semester.

Mr. Belin. What did you do last fall?

Mr. Edwards. I worked at the courthouse there.

Mr. Belin. Is that the Dallas County Courthouse?

Mr. Edwards. Right.

Mr. Belin. Where is that located?

Mr. Edwards. Let's say down on Main. I guess that would be sufficient.

Mr. Belin. Main Street?

Mr. Edwards. Right.

Mr. Belin. What street crosses there, do you remember?

Mr. Edwards. Well, you mean—give me a multiple choice and I will tell you.

Mr. Belin. Harwood?

Mr. Edwards. No.

Mr. Belin. Record?

Mr. Edwards. Right.

Mr. Belin. What about Elm? Houston Street?

Mr. Edwards. It runs right behind it, if I am not mistaken.

Mr. Belin. Were you working on the day the President came to Dallas?

Mr. Edwards. That's correct.

Mr. Belin. That was November 22, 1963, I believe on a Friday, is that correct?

Mr. Edwards. That's correct.

Mr. Belin. Did you have lunch before the motorcade came by or not?

Mr. Edwards. Yes; I did.

Mr. Belin. Were you with anyone?

Mr. Edwards. Ronald Fischer.

Mr. Belin. Ronald Fischer. Did he work with you in that office?

Mr. Edwards. Yes; he did.

Mr. Belin. What were you doing there? By the way, what was your job?

Mr. Edwards. Just a utility clerk.

Mr. Belin. What did you do after lunch?

Mr. Edwards. Came back and worked. I don't know exactly what time.202 For a little while until it was time for the President to come by, and then we left.

Mr. Belin. Where did you go?

Mr. Edwards. Sir?

Mr. Belin. Where did you go? You say you left. Where did you go?

Mr. Edwards. You mean left the office?

Mr. Belin. Yes.

Mr. Edwards. Down on—I get the streets mixed up. Let's see, it would be Houston.

Mr. Belin. Houston?

Mr. Edwards. Yes; I guess it would be Houston across the street in the little park right across from the courthouse, straight across from, facing the Depository.

Mr. Belin. Well, let me ask you this now.

Mr. Edwards. That is Elm, I guess that is what it is. I guess that is Elm Street.

Mr. Belin. When you used the word "Depository," what building do you mean?

Mr. Edwards. Texas School Book Depository.

Mr. Belin. Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mr. Edwards. That building is at the corner of Elm and Houston, isn't it? Houston comes this way?

Mr. Belin. Well, Houston, I believe, runs in a north-south direction. Elm runs in a east-west direction. Would a map help you at all?

Mr. Edwards. Yes.

Mr. Belin. Let me see if I can get one for you here.

I am handing you a portion of a map. You see Houston Street here on this map?

Mr. Edwards. Yes.

Mr. Belin. And you see Elm Street running this way, and the arrow pointing north, so Houston runs north and south.

Mr. Edwards. Where do you put the courthouse?

Mr. Belin. The courthouse would be off this strip of map, but that is Elm and here is Houston. This little black square would be the Texas School Book Depository Building.

Mr. Edwards. It would have to be Houston and Elm.

Mr. Belin. Here is Elm going in the parkway here. Do you see that right there?

Mr. Edwards. Yes.

Mr. Belin. All right, Main Street would be running toward the bottom of the map?

Mr. Edwards. Yes; it was here.

Mr. Belin. You are putting your finger at the point which would be to the west of Houston Street and to the south of Elm as it goes into the parkway, is that right?

You see the arrow pointing northwest would be to your left on the map, and you are going to be west of Houston Street and south of Elm going in the parkway, is that correct?

Mr. Edwards. Yes; I would be over here, right over here.

Mr. Belin. Here is the parkway. Can you see it upside down here? Let's see if I can show you a picture.

Mr. Edwards. I am sorry. I don't have a picture.

Mr. Belin. Here is a map and on the map north is shown with an arrow. You see it right here?

Mr. Edwards. Yes.

Mr. Belin. Mr. Edwards, have you now located yourself on this map?

Mr. Edwards. Yes; I have.

Mr. Belin. All right, where were you located?

Mr. Edwards. I guess I would plant myself right there.

Mr. Belin. You are planting yourself now at a spot which would be on the west side of Houston Street near that entrance of Elm Street into the parkway203 there, and you would be facing in a northerly direction toward the School Book Depository Building, is that correct?

Mr. Edwards. That's correct.

Mr. Belin. Who were you standing with?

Mr. Edwards. Ronald Fischer.

Mr. Belin. What time did you get there?

Mr. Edwards. I don't know.

Mr. Belin. How long before the motorcade came by, if you know?

Mr. Edwards. Where is that little paper and I will tell you.

Mr. Belin. Can you remember without looking at any paper right now?

Mr. Edwards. No; not really. I can guess.

Mr. Belin. What is your best guess? We will understand that it is just a guess.

Mr. Edwards. Maybe I'd better not guess.

Mr. Belin. All right, if you don't care to guess, that is fine. We would prefer that you not make any statement unless you feel fairly sure about it.

What did you do when you got to this point?

Mr. Edwards. Stood there and waited for the motorcade to come.

Mr. Belin. Did you look around at all?

Mr. Edwards. Certainly.

Mr. Belin. Did you ever take a look at the south side of the Texas School Book Depository Building? That would be facing—you would be looking at the south side of the building?

Mr. Edwards. Yes.

Mr. Belin. Did you ever look at that at all?

Mr. Edwards. Yes.

Mr. Belin. Before the motorcade came by?

Mr. Edwards. Yes.

Mr. Belin. What did you see?

Mr. Edwards. Nothing of importance except maybe one individual who was up there in the corner room of the sixth floor which was crowded in among boxes.

Mr. Belin. You say on the sixth floor?

Mr. Edwards. Yes.

Mr. Belin. What portion of the sixth floor as you looked at the building to your right or to your left?

Mr. Edwards. To my right.

Mr. Belin. How near the corner?

Mr. Edwards. The corner window.

Mr. Belin. The corner window there?

Mr. Edwards. Right.

Mr. Belin. Could you describe this individual at all? Was he a white man or a Negro?

Mr. Edwards. White man.

Mr. Belin. Tall or short, if you know?

Mr. Edwards. I couldn't say.

Mr. Belin. Did he have anything in his hand at all that you could see?

Mr. Edwards. No.

Mr. Belin. Could you see his hands?

Mr. Edwards. I don't remember.

Mr. Belin. What kind of clothes did he have on?

Mr. Edwards. Light colored shirt, short sleeve and open neck.

Mr. Belin. How much of him could you see? Shoulder up, waist up, knees up, or what?

Mr. Edwards. From the waist on. From the abdomen or stomach up.

Mr. Belin. Was the man fat, thin, or average in size?

Mr. Edwards. Oh, about average. Possibly thin.

Mr. Belin. Could you tell whether he was light skinned or medium skin or what, if you could tell?

Mr. Edwards. No.

Mr. Belin. Was the sun shining in or not, if you know?

Mr. Edwards. Don't know.

204 Mr. Belin. Was the sun out that day?

Mr. Edwards. Yes.

Mr. Belin. What color hair did the man have?

Mr. Edwards. Light brown.

Mr. Belin. Light brown hair?

Mr. Edwards. That is what I would say; yes, sir.

Mr. Belin. Did you see any other people on the sixth floor?

Mr. Edwards. No.

Mr. Belin. Did you notice whether or not there were any, or just did you look and see any?

Mr. Edwards. I notice that there—I just didn't see any.

Mr. Belin. What about the next floor above? Did you see any people on the floor above?

Mr. Edwards. No.

Mr. Belin. What about on any floors below? See any people on the fifth floor?

Mr. Edwards. No.

Mr. Belin. Fourth floor?

Mr. Edwards. No.

Mr. Belin. Third floor?

Mr. Edwards. Possibly.

Mr. Belin. Second floor?

Mr. Edwards. I believe so.

Mr. Belin. First floor?

Mr. Edwards. I don't know.

Mr. Belin. All right, now, you signed an affidavit for the sheriff's department where you stated that you saw a man at the window on the fifth floor, and the window was wide open all the way, and there was a stack of books around him, I could see. And you just told me you didn't see a man on the fifth floor. Was that affidavit correct or not?

Mr. Edwards. That is incorrect. That has been straightened out since.

Mr. Belin. What do you mean it has been straightened out?

Mr. Edwards. Well, they discussed it with me later and I took that back. That was the FBI. It was the sixth floor, though.

Mr. Belin. How do you know it was the sixth floor? Sixth floor rather than the fifth floor?

Mr. Edwards. I went with them and I showed them the window, and I didn't count the bottom floor.

Mr. Belin. You mean the first time when you made the affidavit you didn't count the bottom floor?

Mr. Edwards. That's right.

Mr. Belin. When you went out with the FBI, they asked you to point out the window?

Mr. Edwards. Right.

Mr. Belin. And you pointed out the same window you saw on November 22?

Mr. Edwards. Yes, sir.

Mr. Belin. Then you weren't counting the bottom floor?

Mr. Edwards. They did.

Mr. Belin. Did you watch them count?

Mr. Edwards. Yes.

Mr. Belin. Do you remember how many floors from the top it was?

Mr. Edwards. I think seven in all, seven floors. It is next to the top.

Mr. Belin. Do you know whether or not the hair of the man was short, average, or long on the man that you saw in the window that day?

Mr. Edwards. Don't know.

Mr. Belin. Now what conversation did you and Ronald Fischer have about this man, if anything? Do you remember what he said?

Mr. Edwards. I made a statement to Ronny that I wondered who he was hiding from since he was up there crowded in among the boxes, in a joking manner.

Mr. Belin. You mean you said it in a joking manner?

Mr. Edwards. Yes.

205 Mr. Belin. What did Fischer say to you?

Mr. Edwards. I don't recall what he said, but I know that we said a few things. It wasn't of any importance at the time. And we looked up at him, both of us.

Mr. Belin. How long did you look at him?

Mr. Edwards. Just a few seconds.

Mr. Belin. Then what took your attention away, if any, or did you just start looking somewhere else?

Mr. Edwards. Started looking somewhere else.

Mr. Belin. How long after that did the motorcade come by?

Mr. Edwards. Thirty seconds or a minute.

Mr. Belin. Anything else that you can remember that you or Ronald Fischer said?

Mr. Edwards. No.

Mr. Belin. Anything else you can think of that might be relevant at all?

Mr. Edwards. No.

Mr. Belin. How many shots did you hear, if you remember?

Mr. Edwards. Well, I heard one more then than was fired, I believe.

Mr. Belin. You mean you said on the affidavit you heard four shots?

Mr. Edwards. I still right now don't know how many was fired. If I said four, then I thought I heard four.

Mr. Belin. If you said four, you mean the affidavit—maybe we'd better introduce it into the record as Edward's Deposition Exhibit A. Where do you think the shots came from?

Mr. Edwards. I have no idea.

Mr. Belin. In the affidavit you stated that the shots seemed to come from the building there. Did you really say that or not?

Mr. Edwards. No; I didn't say that.

Mr. Belin. All right, anything else you can think of?

Mr. Edwards. No.

Mr. Belin. I want to thank you for coming down here. You have an opportunity, if you want, to come back and read this deposition and sign it, or else you can waive the signing and reading of it and it will be sent directly to Washington by the court reporter. It makes no difference to us. You can read and sign or can waive reading and signing.

Mr. Edwards. I don't want to make an extra trip.

Mr. Belin. Do you want to waive it then?

Mr. Edwards. Yes.

Mr. Belin. Thank you, sir.


TESTIMONY OF MRS. JEAN LOLLIS HILL

The testimony of Mrs. Jean Lollis Hill was taken at 2:30 p.m., on March 24, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. Specter. May the record show that Mrs. Jean Lollis Hill is present at this moment in response to a letter request that she appear and give a deposition to the President's Commission investigating the assassination of President Kennedy.

May I say for the record, Mrs. Hill, that the Commission is investigating all of the facts relating to the shooting and, and we have asked you to appear here today to tell us what you know, if anything, relating to the actual assassination, because we understand you were on the scene or nearby at that time.

May the record further reflect that Mrs. Hill was sent a letter under date of March 18, 1964. With that preliminary statement, I will ask you, Mrs. Hill, to stand and raise your right hand, if you will please.

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you shall give before the President's206 Commission in this deposition proceeding will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mrs. Hill. I do.

Mr. Specter. Will you be seated, please, Mrs. Hill? And would you state your full name for the record?

Mrs. Hill. Jean Lollis Hill.

Mr. Specter. Mrs. Hill, have you received a letter request?

Mrs. Hill. Yes, sir; I have.

Mr. Specter. Under date of March 18, 1964?

Mrs. Hill. I have it here.

Mr. Specter. Well, when did you see that letter request?

Mrs. Hill. Well, I guess I got it 2 or 3 days afterward—March 18—so I must have gotten it Monday—no; I couldn't have gotten it yesterday—I got it Saturday.

Mr. Specter. That would have been March 21?

Mrs. Hill. That's right.

Mr. Specter. All right. May the record show that a court reporter is present and is taking verbatim transcript of the deposition of Mrs. Hill, with the court reporter, Mrs. Hill, and myself being present, and that all of the report is being transcribed and has been transcribed from the time Mrs. Hill arrived, is that correct, Mrs. Hill?

Mrs. Hill. That is correct.

Mr. Specter. Where were you on the day of November 22, 1963, at about noontime?

Mrs. Hill. I was standing directly across from the Texas School Depository Building on a grassy slope and the triangle toward the underpass.

Mr. Specter. And that would have been Dealey Plaza?

Mrs. Hill. If that's what the name of it is.

Mr. Specter. Now, would that be on the——

Mrs. Hill. It was to the left of the motorcade.

Mr. Specter. To the left of the motorcade as the motorcade proceeded forward?

Mrs. Hill. That's right.

Mr. Specter. So, you would have been on the south side of Elm Street?

Mrs. Hill. That's right.

Mr. Specter. Now, what had you done immediately before noontime, Mrs. Hill?

Mrs. Hill. We had been there for about an hour and a half and had been walking up and down and back and forth.

Mr. Specter. When you say "we" whom do you mean by that?

Mrs. Hill. My friend, Mary Moorman, that took the picture.

Mr. Specter. She had a camera with her?

Mrs. Hill. Yes; a Polaroid. We had been taking pictures all morning.

Mr. Specter. And did you have a camera with you?

Mrs. Hill. No.

Mr. Specter. And tell me what you observed as the President's motorcade passed by?

Mrs. Hill. You mean——

Mr. Specter. Start any place that you find most convenient and just tell me in your own way what happened.

Mrs. Hill. Well, as they came toward us, we had been taking pictures with this Polaroid camera and since it was a Polaroid we knew we had only one chance to get a picture, and at the time she had taken a picture just a few minutes before and I had grabbed it out of the camera and wrapped it and put it in my pocket. Just about that time he drew even with us.

Mr. Specter. And when you say "he" you mean?

Mrs. Hill. The President's car. We were standing on the curb and I jumped to the edge of the street and yelled, "Hey, we want to take your picture," to him and he was looking down in the seat—he and Mrs. Kennedy and their heads were turned toward the middle of the car looking down at something in the seat, which later turned out to be the roses, and I was so afraid he was going to look the other way because there were a lot of people across the street and207 we were, as far as I know, we were the only people down there in that area, and just as I yelled, "Hey," to him, he started to bring his head up to look at me and just as he did the shot rang out. Mary took the picture and fell on the ground and of course there were more shots.

Mr. Specter. How many shots were there altogether?

Mrs. Hill. I have always said there were some four to six shots. There were three shots—one right after the other, and a distinct pause, or just a moment's pause, and then I heard more.

Mr. Specter. How long a time elapsed from the first to the third of what you described as the first three shots?

Mrs. Hill. They were rapidly—they were rather rapidly fired.

Mr. Specter. Could you give me an estimate on the timespan on those three shots?

Mrs. Hill. No; I don't think I can.

Mr. Specter. Now, how many shots followed what you described as the first three shots?

Mrs. Hill. I think there were at least four or five shots and perhaps six, but I know there were more than three.

Mr. Specter. Now, much time elapsed from the very first shot until the very last shot, will you estimate?

Mrs. Hill. I don't think I could, properly, but my girl friend fell on the ground after about—during the shooting—right, I would say, just immediately after she had taken the picture—probably about the third shot. She fell on the ground and grabbed my slacks and said, "Get down, they're shooting." And, I knew they were but I was too stunned to move, so I didn't get down. I just stood there and gawked around.

Mr. Specter. Can't you give me any better idea on the sequence of the shots other than to say that there were three shots right in a row and then a moment's pause and an additional shot or shots.

Mrs. Hill. In what way?

Mr. Specter. Is there any way you could be more specific by way of time lapses among any of the shots, from the first to the second shot, the second to the third, or in that manner?

Mrs. Hill. The three were fired as though one person were firing; I mean, to me. They were fired just like you could reload and fire again or whatever you do with a gun.

Mr. Specter. With what sort of an action?

Mrs. Hill. I think that the firing that was done could have been done with the type gun that they say the assassinator used.

Mr. Specter. And what type gun was that, according to your understanding?

Mrs. Hill. A bolt action.

Mr. Specter. And how about the shots that followed the three shots, then, what would the sequence of timing have been on those?

Mrs. Hill. I thought they were different—I thought the sequence was different.

Mr. Specter. How will you describe the sequence?

Mrs. Hill. Quicker—more automatic.

Mr. Specter. Were there as few as four, as you recollected?

Mrs. Hill. I won't say positively, I think I can still seemingly hear it, and I would still say there were more, you know, I'm saying 4 to 6. I know there were at least 4, and I just almost swear that I heard 5 or 6.

Mr. Specter. Could there have been more than 6 that you heard?

Mrs. Hill. I couldn't say that I heard more than that.

Mr. Specter. Could you say for certain that you did not hear more than that?

Mrs. Hill. Yes; I didn't hear any more than that.

Mr. Specter. What was the position of the President, as best you recollect it, at the time the first shot was heard by you?

Mrs. Hill. He was slightly turned, he was sitting back in the seat, like turned toward Mrs. Kennedy and his head was down, and his hands were like this (indicating).

Mr. Specter. His hands were in his lap?

208 Mrs. Hill. No—not really.

Mr. Specter. How would you describe the position of his hands?

Mrs. Hill. He was sitting here [indicating] and Mrs. Kennedy—he was like this [indicating].

Mr. Specter. You are indicating the right hand on the left knee?

Mrs. Hill. Yes.

Mr. Specter. With the body turned slightly toward the person on his left?

Mrs. Hill. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Who would have been Mrs. Kennedy?

Mrs. Hill. Yes.

Mr. Specter. And were you watching him at this time?

Mrs. Hill. Yes, I was looking right at his face.

Mr. Specter. And what reaction, if any, did he have at the time of the first shot?

Mrs. Hill. As I said, I had yelled at him and he had started to raise his head up and I saw his head start to come up and all at once a bullet rang out and he slumped forward like this [indicating].

Mr. Specter. Lurched or slumped, as you say, to the left?

Mrs. Hill. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Did his head drop down?

Mrs. Hill. Yes; he was just, you know, slumping down like this.

Mr. Specter. Did you have a chance to see anything of Governor Connally at that exact second?

Mrs. Hill. There was a scrambling around in the front seat. I didn't know who was riding with him, I hadn't paid any attention to who was riding with him in the car, but I never did see Mrs. Connally. I guess my story is probably colored by what I have heard.

Mr. Specter. Tell me what you have heard that you think maybe that colored your story?

Mrs. Hill. About what the Connallys say about the shots, which shots hit where and everything.

Mr. Specter. What is that that you have heard?

Mrs. Hill. Well, I have heard that 1 shot hit Kennedy and also hit Connally, that the same shot that hit Kennedy hit Connally.

Mr. Specter. Where did you hear that, Mrs. Hill?

Mrs. Hill. I don't know.

Mr. Specter. What else have you heard?

Mrs. Hill. And also that Mrs. Connally jumped up and covered Mr. Connally with her body and pushed him to the floor, but I never did see Mrs. Connally.

Mr. Specter. Did you ever see Governor Connally?

Mrs. Hill. Yes; I did see him; I didn't know who he was, but I did see him and I knew that someone had been hit.

Mr. Specter. Where was he pushed in the car?

Mrs. Hill. Well, I just vaguely know that he was toward the front.

Mr. Specter. Well, was he in the front seat of the ear or was he between President Kennedy and the front seat of the car, or where was he?

Mrs. Hill. Between President Kennedy?

Mr. Specter. You know that there were jump seats in the car so that there would have been people sitting three positions forward, one in the back seat—President Kennedy and Mrs. Kennedy, on the right in the jump seat—Governor Connally and Mrs. Connally and in the front seat, two Secret Service agents—people sitting three positions forward?

Mrs. Hill. I saw the Secret Service agents.

Mr. Specter. Had you been, prior to the time I told you just now, familiar with that arrangement of the personnel in the car?

Mrs. Hill. Yes; I knew that, and as I said, I didn't know who the people were in the car because I am new here—I don't know the Connallys, I just knew that people were in the car.

Mr. Specter. Did you notice the person sitting in the jump seat on the right-hand side, that would be the person immediately in front of President Kennedy?

Mrs. Hill. Well, I would say it was Mr. Connally.

Mr. Specter. Did you observe him at any specific time?

209 Mrs. Hill. I saw a man fall to the floor.

Mr. Specter. And when, in point of time, did you see him fall?

Mrs. Hill. After the President was shot, but I wouldn't—it wasn't with the first shot. To me he wasn't hit when the first shot hit.

Mr. Specter. And what is the basis for your saying that, Mrs. Hill?

Mrs.. Hill. Well, I just think that he was hit after Kennedy was hit because, well, just the way that it looked, I would say that he was hit later.

Mr. Specter. Now, do you associate the time that Governor Connally appeared to have been hit with any specific shot that you heard?

Mrs. Hill. The second.

Mr. Specter. And what specifically did you observe at the time of the second shot?

Mrs. Hill. Well, that's what I thought had happened—that they had hit someone in the front part of the car.

Mr. Specter. And what did you observe at the time of the third shot?

Mrs. Hill. President Kennedy was hit again and he had further buffeted his body and I didn't realize at the time what it was—I remarked to my friends in the police station that day—did she notice his hair standing up, because it did. It just rippled up like this.

Mr. Specter. And at what time was that?

Mrs. Hill. On the third shot.

Mr. Specter. Did you notice Governor Connally at the time of the third shot?

Mrs. Hill. I never saw him again.

Mr. Specter. What occurred at the time of the fourth shot which you believe you heard?

Mrs. Hill. Well, at that time, of course, there was a pause and I took the other shots—about that time Mary grabbed me and was yelling and I had looked away from what was going on here and I thought, because I guess from the TV and movies, that it was Secret Service agents shooting back. To me, if somebody shoots at somebody they always shoot back and so I just thought that that's what it was and I thought, well, they are getting him and shooting back, you know; I didn't know.

Mr. Specter. Where was the President's car at the time you thought you heard the fourth shot?

Mrs. Hill. The motorcade came to almost a halt at the time the shots rang out, and I would say it was just approximately, if not—it couldn't have been in the same position, I'm sure it wasn't, but just a very, very short distance from where it had been. It was just almost stunned.

Mr. Specter. And how about the time of the fifth shot, where do you think the President's car was?

Mrs. Hill. That was during those shots, I think it wasn't any further than a few feet—further down.

Mr. Specter. Which shots, now—you mean the fourth, and perhaps the fifth and perhaps the sixth shot?

Mrs. Hill. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Are you able to say what anyone was doing or what events were occurring at the time of the fourth through perhaps the sixth shots which you have testified about?

Mrs. Hill. Well, as I said, at that time she was yelling at me and on the ground.

Mr. Specter. Who was yelling at you?

Mrs. Hill. Mary, my friend, was yelling at me and she was down on the ground and I looked up and I could see everyone was just stunned, there was immobility all around and I just stood there looking around and I'm sure there wasn't a pause—it seemed like an eternity but I'm sure there was just a slight pause before things started moving again.

Mr. Specter. Were the shots over by that time when things started moving again?

Mrs. Hill. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Then what happened on the scene?

210 Mrs. Hill. Well, they say Mrs. Kennedy climbed up on the back of the car.

Mr. Specter. Did you observe that?

Mrs. Hill. No; I have seen pictures that show that she must have, but I ran across the street.

Mr. Specter. To the——

Mrs. Hill. Other side.

Mr. Specter. North side of Elm Street?

Mrs. Hill. That's right. I saw a man up there running, or getting away or walking away or something—I would say he was running.

Mr. Specter. Where was that man when you first saw him?

Mrs. Hill. He was right up there by the School Depository, just—not at the corner where they say the shots came from, at the other end, right up on the slope at the top of the slope.

Mr. Specter. Would that be in front of the School Book Depository Building?

Mrs. Hill. Yes.

Mr. Specter. At the west end?

Mrs. Hill. More to the west end.

Mr. Specter. Would it be between the westernmost point of the building and some other point in the building? Was he at the westernmost point or farther east than the westernmost point?

Mrs. Hill. I would say he was farther east than the westernmost point.

Mr. Specter. Would you draw a diagram for me in rough outline, starting with Houston Street——

Mrs. Hill. Yes; but I can't do this very well.

Mr. Specter. Permit me to draw an outline, then, to get your bearing here and realizing that I want your recollection, and I'll ask you the questions. Assume that Houston Street is the street which I am marking Houston. Assume that this is Main Street. Assume that Elm Street curves down in the manner that I am drawing and marking.

Mrs. Hill. All right.

Mr. Specter. Assume that the Texas School Book Depository is this large building which I will mark "TSBD." Now, would you place with the letter "A" where you were at the time the President went by?

Mrs. Hill. Well, I would have to place the President first.

Mr. Specter. Fine—place him with the letter "X".

Mrs. Hill. All right—if he were here——

Mr. Specter. Now, was he in the center of the street or on the side of the street?

Mrs. Hill. He was on the side—he wasn't just completely over there, but he was past the center of the street and we were——

Mr. Specter. Now, place yourself with the letter "A".

Mrs. Hill. Right there [indicating].

Mr. Specter. Make it a big printed "A" for us.

Mrs. Hill. Okay. [Complied with request of counsel Specter.]

Mr. Specter. Now, would you place the position you ran to after the President's car went by?

Mrs. Hill. By that time, I'm sure the car was here—it was on down a little way, and I ran behind here.

Mr. Specter. Draw a line to where you ran.

Mrs. Hill. All right—I don't know whether I've got this just right—but I ran approximately right up through here.

Mr. Specter. Put a "B" here where you were when you came to a stop on the other side of the street.

Mrs. Hill. These steps.

Mr. Specter. Now, where were you when you first noticed the——

Mrs. Hill. These steps that go up—I guess you've looked at the site, there are some steps down there that go up to that promenade, or whatever you call it.

Mr. Specter. That go in a generally westerly direction?

Mrs. Hill. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Beyond the Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mrs. Hill. Yes; and I was just on this side——

211 Mr. Specter. "This side"—you are meaning—the east of it?

Mrs. Hill. The east of it.

Mr. Specter. Were you beyond the westernmost point of the Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mrs. Hill. No.

Mr. Specter. You were still in front of that building?

Mrs. Hill. That's right.

Mr. Specter. Now, is the letter "B" now in the position where you were when you first saw that man?

Mrs. Hill. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Where was that man, indicating with the letter "C," where he was? He was very close to you?

Mrs. Hill. Well, he was at the top of this hill—you don't leave me any space in here—I mean, there's a distance in here greater than what is shown here.

Mr. Specter. He was between Elm Street and the Depository Building?

Mrs. Hill. Yes.

Mr. Specter. And where did you see him going?

Mrs. Hill. I saw him go toward the tracks, toward the railroad tracks to the west?

Mr. Specter. What did you observe about that man, if anything?

Mrs. Hill. That he just had on a brown overcoat and a hat.

Mr. Specter. Why was your attention attracted to him?

Mrs. Hill. Because he was the only thing moving up there. The other people were all grief stricken and standing there and I don't know what I would have done with him when I got up there, but I don't know why I even had the instinct to run, and I don't know that it is anything even connected with this, but since I had already—I have told it and it is part of my recollection, I am just stating it again.

Mr. Specter. Well, was there anything about the man that attracted your attention to him beside the fact that he was moving?

Mrs. Hill. I just thought at the time—that's the man that did it.

Mr. Specter. Why did you think that this was the man that did it?

Mrs. Hill. I just don't know—I mean—that was my thought.

Mr. Specter. Did you see any weapon in his hand?

Mrs. Hill. No; I never saw a weapon during the whole time, in anyone's hand.

Mr. Specter. Did you see that man from the front?

Mrs. Hill. As well as I remember, now, when I saw him he was turning and going to the west.

Mr. Specter. Was he in the process of turning when you first saw him?

Mrs. Hill. Yes; I would say he was turning.

Mr. Specter. So that you had some view of his front part of his body?

Mrs. Hill. Yes.

Mr. Specter. And did you see any weapon at that time?

Mrs. Hill. No, sir; he was three-fourths turned by the time I did see him.

Mr. Specter. Could you see both of his hands at that time?

Mrs. Hill. No.

Mr. Specter. Could you see one of his hands at that time?

Mrs. Hill. No; I do not even remember seeing his hands.

Mr. Specter. I mean, if he was turning, his hands would have been visible, wouldn't they?

Mrs. Hill. They surely would have been.

Mr. Specter. So, what you are saying is, you don't have any recollection of seeing his hands?

Mrs. Hill. I have no recollection—that's right.

Mr. Specter. But from the position of his body, his hands would have been in the position where they could have been observed?

Mrs. Hill. That's right—surely.

Mr. Specter. And do you have any recollection of observing any weapon in either hand?

Mrs. Hill. No; I never saw a weapon the whole time.

Mr. Specter. Had you moved from point "A" at the time you first saw him?

212 Mrs. Hill. That's the reason I ran across the street.

Mr. Specter. Did you see him while you were at point "A"?

Mrs. Hill. Do you mean prior to the shots? Yes; I saw him, that's the reason why I went across the street.

Mr. Specter. So, you saw him when you were at point "A"?

Mrs. Hill. That's right—that's the reason I left that spot.

Mr. Specter. And he was at point "C" when you first saw him?

Mrs. Hill. That's right.

Mr. Specter. Did he move before you moved?

Mrs. Hill. His moving made me start after him.

Mr. Specter. So, he did move before you moved?

Mrs. Hill. Yes; and as I came across the street—as I said—I never did see Mrs. Kennedy get up or anything, because when I ran across the street, the first motorcycle that was right behind her nearly hit me turning around, because I looked up in his face and he was looking all around.

Mr. Specter. You mean the policeman?

Mrs. Hill. Yes; and I don't think he ever did see me. I just looked at him and dodged then because I thought his wheel was going to hit me, and I don't think he ever did see me, and I ran across through there and started up the hill. When I looked down on the ground, I mean, as I was running up the hill to catch that man, I looked down and saw some red stuff and I thought, "Oh, they got him, he's bleeding," and this is embarrassing, but it turned out to be Koolade or some sort of red drink.

Mr. Specter. You thought they had gotten the man who was running away?

Mrs. Hill. Yes.

Mr. Specter. You thought that perhaps the second burst of shots you heard were being directed toward him by the Secret Service?

Mrs. Hill. I just thought, "Oh, goodness, the Secret Service is shooting back."

Mr. Specter. Can you describe what that man looked like?

Mrs. Hill. He wasn't——

Mr. Specter. How tall was he?

Mrs. Hill. He wasn't very tall.

Mr. Specter. Was he more than 5 feet tall, or can you give me any meaningful description of him?

Mrs. Hill. Well, yes; but I don't want to.

Mr. Specter. Why is that?

Mrs. Hill. Well, because I had told several people and I also said it that day down there and the person that I described, and I am fully aware that his whereabouts have been known at all times, and that it seems that I am merely using a figure and converting it to my story, but the person that I saw looked a lot like—I would say the general build as I would think Jack Ruby would from that position. But I have talked with the FBI about this and I told them I realized that his whereabouts had been covered at all times and of course I didn't—at that time I didn't realize that the shots were coming from the building. I frankly thought they were coming from the knoll.

Mr. Specter. Why did you think they were coming from the knoll?

Mrs. Hill. That was just my idea where they were coming from.

Mr. Specter. Would you draw the knoll on the picture, where you mean by the knoll?

Mrs. Hill. This area in front of the Book Depository—it's right here.

Mr. Specter. Just draw me a circle as to where you had a general impression the shots were coming from.

Mrs. Hill. This is a hill and it was like they were coming from right in there. That's when I looked up and saw that man and all the rest of the people were stunned and not moving in that area and yet he was getting out of there—I thought that probably he had done it, and so I went to catch him, for some reason.

Mr. Specter. Now, did you have a conscious impression of the source of the first shot that you heard, that is, where it came from?

Mrs. Hill. Well, evidently I didn't because the only conscious recollection I have of that—I mean—until all this other came out—I had always thought that they came from the knoll.

213 Mr. Specter. Did you have any conscious impression of where the second shot came from?

Mrs. Hill. No.

Mr. Specter. Any conscious impression of where this third shot came from?

Mrs. Hill. Not any different from any of them. I thought it was just people shooting from the knoll—I did think there was more than one person shooting.

Mr. Specter. You did think there was more than one person shooting?

Mrs. Hill. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. What made you think that?

Mrs. Hill. The way the gun report sounded and the difference in the way they were fired—the timing.

Mr. Specter. What was your impression as to the source of the second group of shots which you have described as the fourth, perhaps the fifth, and perhaps the sixth shot?

Mrs. Hill. Well, nothing, except that I thought that they were fired by someone else.

Mr. Specter. And did you have any idea where they were coming from?

Mrs. Hill. No; as I said, I thought they were coming from the general direction of that knoll.

Mr. Specter. Well, did you think that the Secret Service was firing them from that knoll?

Mrs. Hill. I said I didn't know—I really don't.

Mr. Specter. You just had the general impression that shots were coming from the knoll?

Mrs. Hill. Yes.

Mr. Specter. And you had the general impression that the Secret Service was firing the second group of shots at the man who fired the first group of shots?

Mrs. Hill. That's right.

Mr. Specter. But you had no specific impression as to the source of those shots?

Mrs. Hill. No.

Mr. Specter. Did you get a very good look at that man, who you say was starting to run?

Mrs. Hill. Well, as I said, when I looked down at this red stuff on the ground, I said, "Oh," you know, to myself, "they hit him." You know, I was going to follow that, and when I looked up again, I looked all around and I couldn't see him anywhere and I kept running toward the train tracks and I looked all around out there and I couldn't see him—I looked everywhere and I heard someone yelling something about—it was just this voice that was yelling, "It looks like he got away," or something—I thought I had been right, you know, that he had really gone up there and he had gotten away some way in the tracks or had gone around behind the Depository, and so, I didn't know where he had gone. By that time I saw policemen—where he had gone. By that time I saw policemen—some were coming off of their motorcycles just around the curb here—just at the underpass here, and of course, the motorcade sped away and the policemen were coming from all sorts of different directions, people were closing in, and all I could think of was, "I want to get out of here fast. I don't want to be caught by anybody. I don't want to be in on anything," and everytime anybody would come toward me I would go another way until I got off of that hill back up there where the tracks were.

Mr. Specter. Did you run up toward the hill?

Mrs. Hill. Yes; I ran up toward the railroad tracks.

Mr. Specter. Let me draw the triple underpass there, and you ran up to what point—where? About the point of "D" here?

Mrs. Hill. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Why did you run up there—after the man?

Mrs. Hill. I was still looking for him. I didn't know where he had gone. I heard lots of people yelling, "Did he get away, did he get away, and which way did he go."

Mr. Specter. You were trying to catch him?

Mrs. Hill. Yes.

Mr. Specter. But you couldn't find him any more?

214 Mrs. Hill. No; I just couldn't find him again. When I stopped to look down at the grass, at this red stuff and when I looked back up, by that time everyone was screaming and moving around.

Mr. Specter. And where were you when you looked down at the ground? Point it out to me on the diagram.

Mrs. Hill. The steps that go up to this colonnade thing right there and I saw it right about here.

Mr. Specter. Well, mark it with the letter "E" there.

Mrs. Hill. All right.

Mr. Specter. Now, a moment ago you said you didn't want to say anything more about the identity of the man. Why did you tell me that, Mrs. Hill?

Mrs. Hill. Well, because I have had an awful lot of fun made of me over being a witness in this and I'm real tired of it.

Mr. Specter. Who made fun of you?

Mrs. Hill. Well, quite a lot of people.

Mr. Specter. Anybody connected with the official investigation in the case?

Mrs. Hill. No, oh, no; it was just people, but people that I know.

Mr. Specter. All right, and why have they made fun of you, because of your identification of who that man was?

Mrs. Hill. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Any other reason?

Mrs. Hill. Yes—I saw a dog in the car. They kept asking me, and I even gave that out on a radio or TV interview that I had seen a dog in the car.

Mr. Specter. In which car?

Mrs. Hill. Between the President and Mrs. Kennedy, and they kept asking me what kind of a dog and I said, "I don't know, I wasn't interested in what was in the seat," but I said, "It was white and fuzzy," and I said, "It was something white and kind of fuzzy and it was in the seat between them," and I said, "I just got to thinking—it must be a small dog," because I had remarked to my girl friend as they were taking us in the police station, I said, "Why?" I said, "I could see Liz Taylor or the Gabors traveling with a bunch of dogs, but I can't see the Kennedys traveling with dogs. Why would they have a dog with them on tour?" And, when we remarked about that she and I both—and I said, "Did you see it? What kind of a dog was it? Why were they taking a dog?" I found out later that it was those roses in the seat, but I knew they were looking at something and I just barely glanced and I saw this.

Mr. Specter. Is there any other reason people made fun of you?

Mrs. Hill. Well, basically, the people that made fun of me was my husband, and, of course, that was because—does this have to go in the record?

Mr. Specter. Yes; only in the sense that we are putting everything on the record. This really isn't too important but it is the best procedure to follow, that everything be written down.

Mrs. Hill. Well.

Mr. Specter. In a situation of this sort.

Mrs. Hill. Well, because I talked with an Oklahoma twang, and called Mrs. Kennedy "Jackie" and I said, "He pitched forward in Jackie's lap," and I just didn't rehearse it and do it right at all, because I didn't know it was going to be taken down.

Mr. Specter. And those are the reasons your husband made fun of you?

Mrs. Hill. Yes; and because I saw a dog and he was thoroughly hilarious when he found out that it was roses in the back seat and that I had seen a dog, and he said, "Of all people in the United States you would have to see a dog."

Mr. Specter. Has anybody made fun of you besides your husband?

Mrs. Hill. No; not really, but he's done enough for a whole bunch of people.

Mr. Specter. Now, going back to the question of the description of this man, can you describe him in any more detail than you already have?

Mrs. Hill. No; I haven't—I can't.

Mr. Specter. His height you said was about the height of Jack Ruby?

Mrs. Hill. That's right.

Mr. Specter. How about his weight?

Mrs. Hill. That's the only thing—I would say—he certainly wasn't any bigger than Jack Ruby.

215 Mr. Specter. Was he smaller than Jack Ruby?

Mrs. Hill. He could have been smaller.

Mr. Specter. How about—was he wearing a hat?

Mrs. Hill. Yes; I said he was wearing a hat.

Mr. Specter. Was he wearing a top coat?

Mrs. Hill. Yes; an overcoat.

Mr. Specter. And was he wearing a tie, could you tell?

Mrs. Hill. I didn't notice. It was a brown, I mean, I just got the impression of a brown hat.

Mr. Specter. Can you give me an estimate of his age?

Mrs. Hill. I would say the man was middle aged, or say, I would say 40.

Mr. Specter. Was he a white man or a Negro?

Mrs. Hill. He was a white man.

Mr. Specter. Can you describe him in any other way to me?

Mrs. Hill. No; I can't.

Mr. Specter. Do you think he was, in fact, Jack Ruby?

Mrs. Hill. That, I don't know.

Mr. Specter. Now, have you told me all that you can recollect about this man and your reason for moving toward him?

Mrs. Hill. Yes, as far as I know.

Mr. Specter. Now, you were at point "D," what did you do after being at point "D," which we have marked on the diagram?

Mrs. Hill. Well, as I said, the policemen were coming by that time from different areas, coming and closing this place off, and I was dodging them, trying to get back across the street.

Mr. Specter. Back across Elm Street?

Mrs. Hill. That's right.

Mr. Specter. And did you in fact dodge them?

Mrs. Hill. Yes.

Mr. Specter. And get back across Elm Street?

Mrs. Hill. Yes.

Mr. Specter. And what, if anything, did you do next?

Mrs. Hill. There was a man holding Mary's arm and she was crying and he had hold of her camera trying to take it with him.

Mr. Specter. Who was that?

Mrs. Hill. Featherstone of the Times Herald, and——

Mr. Specter. Dallas Times Herald?

Mrs. Hill. That's right. I ran up there and told him we had to leave. She had been impressing upon me for an hour and a half—we hadn't even gone down to see the President that day—we had been doing other things and we got down there and we just decided we would stay, but she had been impressing upon me for an hour and a half, the whole time we had been there, that we had to beat the traffic out of there, and she knows her way around real well, so I knew she could get out and we could beat the traffic, and we were just going to run for the car as fast as we could. It was parked up here on Houston. We were going to run and get out of there before the people started milling around so we wouldn't be in that traffic, and I don't know—we had been talking about it so long and she had drilled me so much, that we must get out of here, and when I came back and I found her crying and him standing there holding her camera, and holding her, I mean holding her by the arm and her camera, and telling her she had to go with him, I started trying to shake his hand loose and grab the camera and telling him that "No, we wouldn't go, we had to leave," and I guess by that time I was beginning—until then I have no conscious feeling of any scaredness or excitement or anything. I mean, you know, it is just like something that's passing in front of you, and I mean, I wasn't worried or upset in any way until I got back there and then I had a sense of urgency. I just knew I wanted to get out of there and all I could think of—and I don't think the full impact of all that had happened really hit me then, because I was just wanting to get out of there and to get away and he kept telling me—he insisted we go with him and he just practically ran us, and he got—they were throwing up a police net around that building at the time, and he just practically ran us up to the court house, I guess it is, and put us in this little room and I don't know216 why we were so dumb that day unless it was just the sequence of events, that everything was just happening so fast we really didn't even think, but we couldn't leave. He kept standing in front of the door and he would let a cameraman in or someone to interview us and they were shooting things in our faces, and he wouldn't let us out.

Mr. Specter. Who was interviewing you—newspaper reporters?

Mrs. Hill. Newspaper reporters and radio and TV people and a man from—a man named Coker John, or John Coker.

Mr. Specter. From where?

Mrs. Hill. As I get it, he is a sort of freelance writer, and I think he was on an assignment then. He came out—I'm not sure—I thought it was for Life or Post, but he came in there and he was shooting pictures for—I think he was shooting them for TV, but he came out to the house about 2 weeks later with this bunch of men, about four of them, three or four came out, and that's the second time I saw him, because he said, "You remember me, I saw you in the pressroom that day."

Mr. Specter. Is that Miss Hill or Mrs. Hill?

Mrs. Hill. It is Mrs. Hill, and he said "I saw you in the pressroom that day," and I said, "Yes." I remembered him because I saw him more than any—now, I don't remember where I am here.

Mr. Specter. You were telling me about what happened to you at the county courthouse, and then you digressed from that to tell me about John coming to see you in your home.

Let's go back to the county courthouse and let me ask you if you gave an affidavit to the sheriff that day?

Mrs. Hill. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Now, did you talk to anybody from the Federal Government that day?

Mrs. Hill. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Whom did you talk to?

Mrs. Hill. I don't know.

Mr. Specter. What agency was the man from, if you know?

Mrs. Hill. Secret Service.

Mr. Specter. How many times have you talked to somebody from the Secret Service in this case altogether?

Mrs. Hill. I would say the only time I talked to the Secret Service men was when I was down at the courthouse that afternoon, just before they let us leave, and I think—now, we officially sat down and supposedly were giving a story to the Secret Service men.

Mr. Specter. And, did they write down what you were telling them?

Mrs. Hill. I don't think they did.

Mr. Specter. Did you sign anything?

Mrs. Hill. Oh, well, I signed my statement that I made over in the sheriff's office.

Mr. Specter. Then, how about for the Secret Service men, did you sign anything?

Mrs. Hill. No, I don't think we signed anything over there, because they just took us in a little room——

Mr. Specter. What did you tell the Secret Service men?

Mrs. Hill. As well as I remember, we talked to so many that day.

Mr. Specter. Well, did you tell everybody about the same thing you have told me here today?

Mrs. Hill. Yes, except that I didn't go into that stuff with the shots because no one ever asked me, no one ever detailed it like that, but they were interested that day in those pictures and they got them all from us.

Mr. Specter. Did you talk with the Secret Service men on any occasion after the events on November 22?

Mrs. Hill. No.

Mr. Specter. Have you ever talked to anybody else from the Federal Government?

Mrs. Hill. The FBI men.

217 Mr. Specter. On how many occasions?

Mrs. Hill. Several.

Mr. Specter. How many, if you remember?

Mrs. Hill. I don't recall—I was called two or three times at least after that.

Mr. Specter. Called on the telephone?

Mrs. Hill. Yes.

Mr. Specter. You discussed the matter over the phone with somebody who said he was from the FBI?

Mrs. Hill. No; I had that pulled on me and I didn't want to talk until I called back down to check to see.

Mr. Specter. Did you talk to somebody from the FBI when you called them back?

Mrs. Hill. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Over the phone?

Mrs. Hill. Yes.

Mr. Specter. On how many occasions?

Mrs. Hill. I think two or three times is all I had.

Mr. Specter. Were you ever interviewed in person by the FBI?

Mrs. Hill. Yes.

Mr. Specter. On how many occasions?

Mrs. Hill. After that day, I believe only once.

Mr. Specter. And about when was that?

Mrs. Hill. Well, it was the other day after I received this letter—no; before I received this letter, and this was last Tuesday, I think, and they came in reference to what Mark Lane had told the Warren Commission.

Mr. Specter. And what did they ask you when they came to see you last Tuesday, that would be a week ago today or the 16th—or the 17th?

Mrs. Hill. They just had me start over with this story again and they had Mr. Lane's copy and they asked me, you know, if I had said these things and, I read it and told them that I had said it.

Mr.