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Title: Warren Commission (6 of 26): Hearings Vol. VI (of 15)

Author: The President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy

Release Date: October 20, 2013 [EBook #44006]

Language: English

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INVESTIGATION OF
THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY

HEARINGS
Before the President's Commission
on the Assassination
of President Kennedy

Pursuant To Executive Order 11130, an Executive order creating a Commission to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of the late President John F. Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of the man charged with the assassination and S.J. Res. 137, 88th Congress, a concurrent resolution conferring upon the Commission the power to administer oaths and affirmations, examine witnesses, receive evidence, and issue subpenas

Volume
VI

UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE

WASHINGTON, D.C.

U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE, WASHINGTON: 1964

For sale in complete sets by the Superintendent of Documents, U.S. Government Printing Office Washington, D.C., 20402

iii

PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION
ON THE
ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT KENNEDY

Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman

Biographical information on the Commissioners and the staff can be found in the Commission's Report.

v

Preface

The testimony of the following witnesses is contained in volume VI: Drs. Charles J. Carrico, Malcolm Oliver Perry, William Kemp Clark, Robert Nelson McClelland, Charles Rufus Baxter, Marion Thomas Jenkins, Ronald Coy Jones, Don Teel Curtis, Fouad A. Bashour, Gene Coleman Akin, Paul Conrad Peters, Adolph Hartung Giesecke, Jr., Jackie Hansen Hunt, Kenneth Everett Salyer, and Martin G. White, who attended President Kennedy at Parkland Hospital; Drs. Robert Roeder Shaw, Charles Francis Gregory, George T. Shires, and Richard Brooks Dulany, who attended Governor Connally at Parkland Hospital; Ruth Jeanette Standridge, Jane Carolyn Wester, Henrietta M. Ross, R. J. Jimison, and Darrell C. Tomlinson, who testified concerning Governor Connally's stretcher; Diana Hamilton Bowron, Margaret M. Henchliffe, and Doris Mae Nelson, who testified concerning President Kennedy's stretcher; Charles Jack Price, the Administrator of Parkland Hospital; Malcolm O. Couch, Tom C. Dillard, James Robert Underwood, James N. Crawford, Mary Ann Mitchell, Barbara Rowland, Ronald B. Fischer, Robert Edwin Edwards, Jean Lollis Hill, Austin L. Miller, Frank E. Reilly, Earle V. Brown, Royce G. Skelton, S. M. Holland, J. W. Foster, J. C. White, Joe E. Murphy, Roger D. Craig, George W. Rackley, Sr., James Elbert Romack, Lee E. Bowers, Jr., B. J. Martin, Bobby W. Hargis, Clyde A. Haygood, E. D. Brewer, D. V. Harkness, J. Herbert Sawyer, and Gerald Dalton Henslee, who were present at the assassination scene; William H. Shelley, Nat A. Pinkston, Billy Nolan Lovelady, Frankie Kaiser, Charles Douglas Givens, Troy Eugene West, Danny G. Arce, Joe R. Molina, Jack Edwin Dougherty, Eddie Piper, Victoria Elizabeth Adams, Geneva L. Hine, and Doris Burns, employees of the Texas School Book Depository; Mary E. Bledsoe, William W. Whaley, and Mrs. Earlene Roberts, who gave testimony concerning Oswald's movements following the assassination; and Domingo Benavides, and Mrs. Charles Davis, who were present in the vicinity of the Tippit crime scene.

vii

Contents

EXHIBITS INTRODUCED

1

Hearings Before the President's Commission
on the
Assassination of President Kennedy

TESTIMONY OF DR. CHARLES J. CARRICO

The testimony of Dr. Charles J. Carrico was taken at 9:30 a.m., on March 25, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. Specter. May the record show that Dr. Charles J. Carrico is present in response to a letter request for him to appear so that his deposition may be taken in connection with the proceedings of the President's Commission on the Investigation of the Assassination of President Kennedy in connection with the inquiry into all phases of that assassination, including medical care rendered at Parkland Memorial Hospital.

Dr. Carrico has been asked to testify relating to the treatment which he rendered the President at Parkland Hospital. With that preliminary statement of purpose, Dr. Carrico, would you please stand up and raise your right hand.

Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give before the President's Commission in this deposition proceeding will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Dr. Carrico. I do.

Mr. Specter. Would you state your full name for the record, please?

Dr. Carrico. Charles James Carrico.

Mr. Specter. What is your profession, sir?

Dr. Carrico. Physician.

Mr. Specter. Are you duly licensed by the State of Texas to practice medicine?

Dr. Carrico. Yes.

Mr. Specter. And would you outline briefly your educational background, please?

Dr. Carrico. I attended grade school and high school in Denton, Tex.; received a Bachelor of Science in Chemistry from North Texas State College in 1957, and an M.D. from Southwestern Medical School in 1961, and served an internship at Parkland Memorial Hospital from 1961 to 1962, and a year of Fellowship in Surgery at Southwestern, followed by my residency here.

Mr. Specter. Are you working toward any specialty training, Doctor?

Dr. Carrico. I am engaged in a general surgery residency which will qualify me for my boards in general surgery.

Mr. Specter. And what were your duties on November 22, 1963, at Parkland Hospital?

Dr. Carrico. At that time I was assigned to the elective surgery service and was in the emergency room seeing some patients for evaluation for admission to the hospital.

Mr. Specter. And what were you doing specifically around 12 o'clock noon?

Dr. Carrico. Approximately 12 noon or shortly thereafter I was in the clinic and was called to come into the emergency room to see these people and evaluate them for admission and treatment.

Mr. Specter. Were you notified that there was an emergency case on the way to the hospital at approximately 12:30?

2 Dr. Carrico. Yes.

Mr. Specter. In which President Kennedy was involved?

Dr. Carrico. At that time I was in the emergency room seeing these patients and the call was received that the President had been shot and was on his way to the hospital.

Mr. Specter. What is your best recollection as to what time it was when you received that call?

Dr. Carrico. This was probably shortly after 12:30.

Mr. Specter. And how long after that call was received did the President's party actually arrive at Parkland?

Dr. Carrico. An estimation would be 2 minutes or less.

Mr. Specter. Describe what occurred upon the arrival of the President's party at Parkland, please.

Dr. Carrico. We were in the emergency room preparing equipment in response to the call we had received when the nurse said over the intercom that they were here. Governor Connally was rolled in first and was taken to one of the trauma rooms.

Mr. Specter. And what identification was given to the trauma room to which Governor Connally was taken?

Dr. Carrico. Trauma room 2.

Mr. Specter. Who was present at the time that Governor Connally came into the emergency area?

Dr. Carrico. As I recall, Dr. Richard Dulany, myself, several of the nurses, Miss Bowron is the only one I can definitely remember. Don Curtis, oral surgery resident, and I believe Martin White, the intern, was there. These are the only people I remember being present at that time. We had already sent out a call for Dr. Baxter and Dr. Perry and the rest of the staff.

Mr. Specter. Did Dr. Dulany take any part in the treatment of President Kennedy?

Dr. Carrico. No, no, sir; he didn't.

Mr. Specter. Did Dr. Martin White take any part in the treatment of President Kennedy?

Dr. Carrico. I believe he was in there and did the—he helped Dr. Curtis with the cutdown, the initial cutdown.

Mr. Specter. What did Dr. Dulany do?

Dr. Carrico. Dr. Dulany and I initially went to see the Governor, as I said, and he stayed with the Governor while I went to attend to the President, care for the President.

Mr. Specter. Who was the first doctor to reach President Kennedy on his arrival at Parkland Hospital?

Dr. Carrico. I was.

Mr. Specter. And who else was with President Kennedy on his arrival, as best you can recollect it?

Dr. Carrico. Mrs. Kennedy was there, and there were some men in the room, who I assumed were Secret Service men; I don't know.

Mr. Specter. Can you identify any nurses who were present, in addition to Miss Bowron?

Dr. Carrico. No, I don't recall any of them.

Mr. Specter. What did you observe as to the President's condition upon his arrival?

Dr. Carrico. He was lying on a carriage, his respirations were slow, spasmodic, described as agonal.

Mr. Specter. What do you mean by "agonal" if I may interrupt you for just a moment there, Doctor?

Dr. Carrico. These are respirations seen in one who has lost the normal coordinated central control of respiration. These are spasmodic and usually reflect a terminal patient.

Mr. Specter. Would you continue to describe your observations of the President?

Dr. Carrico. His—the President's color—I don't believe I said—he was an3 ashen, bluish, grey, cyanotic, he was making no spontaneous movements, I mean, no voluntary movements at all. We opened his shirt and coat and tie and observed a small wound in the anterior lower third of the neck, listened very briefly, heard a few cardiac beats, felt the President's back, and detected no large or sucking chest wounds, and then proceeded to the examination of his head. The large skull and scalp wound had been previously observed and was inspected a little more closely. There seemed to be a 4–5 cm. area of avulsion of the scalp and the skull was fragmented and bleeding cerebral and cerebellar tissue. The pupils were inspected and seemed to be bilaterally dilated and fixed. No pulse was present, and at that time, because of the inadequate respirations and the apparent airway injury, a cuffed endotracheal tube was introduced, employing a larynzo scope. Through the larynzo scope there seemed to be some hematoma around the larynx and immediately below the larynx was seen the ragged tracheal injury. The endotracheal tube was inserted past this injury, the cuff inflated, and the tube was connected to a respirator to assist the inadequate respiration. At about this point the nurse reported that no blood pressure was obtained.

Mr. Specter. Dr. Carrico, with respect to this small wound in the anterior third of the neck which you have just described, could you be any more specific in defining the characteristics of that wound?

Dr. Carrico. This was probably a 4–7 mm. wound, almost in the midline, maybe a little to the right of the midline, and below the thyroid cartilage. It was, as I recall, rather round and there were no jagged edges or stellate lacerations.

Mr. Specter. You said you felt the President's back?

Dr. Carrico. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Would you describe in more detail just what the feeling of the back involved at that time?

Dr. Carrico. Without taking the time to roll him over and look or to wash off the blood and debris, and while his coat and shirt were still on his arms—I just placed my hands at about his beltline or a little above and by slowly moving my hands upward detected that there was no large violation of the pleural cavity.

Mr. Specter. Why did you not take the time to turn him over?

Dr. Carrico. This man was in obvious extreme distress and any more thorough inspection would have involved several minutes—well, several—considerable time which at this juncture was not available. A thorough inspection would have involved washing and cleansing the back, and this is not practical in treating an acutely injured patient. You have to determine which things, which are immediately life threatening and cope with them, before attempting to evaluate the full extent of the injuries.

Mr. Specter. Did you ever have occasion to look at the President's back?

Dr. Carrico. No, sir. Before—well, in trying to treat an acutely injured patient, you have to establish an airway, adequate ventilation and you have to establish adequate circulation. Before this was accomplished the President's cardiac activity had ceased and closed cardiac massage was instituted, which made it impossible to inspect his back.

Mr. Specter. Was any effort made to inspect the President's back after he had expired?

Dr. Carrico. No, sir.

Mr. Specter. And why was no effort made at that time to inspect his back?

Dr. Carrico. I suppose nobody really had the heart to do it.

Mr. Specter. You had begun to describe some of the action taken in order to endeavor to revive the President. Will you continue with that description, please?

Dr. Carrico. I believe we were to where the endotracheal tube had been inserted. After this, the President—his respirations were assisted by the Bennett machine. We again listened to his chest to attempt to evaluate the respirations. Breath sounds were diminished, especially on the right, despite the fact that the endotracheal tube was in place and the cuff inflated, there continued to be some leakage around the tracheal wound. For this reason Dr. Perry elected to perform a tracheotomy, and instructed some of the other physicians in the room to4 insert chest tubes, thoracotomy tubes. At the beginning of the resuscitation attempt intravenous infusions had been started using polyethylene catheters by venesection, lactated renger solution, and uncross-matched type O Rh negative bloods were administered and 300 mg. of hydrocortisone were administered. Shortly after the completion of the tracheotomy, Dr. Bashour arrived and had connected the cardiac monitor. Although I never saw evidence of cardiac activity, electrical cardiac activity, Dr. Clark stated that there was a perceptible electrical beat which shortly thereafter disappeared, and closed cardiac massage was instituted. The cardiac massage was successful in maintaining carotid and radial pulses, but the patient's state rapidly deteriorated and at approximately 1 o'clock he was pronounced dead.

Mr. Specter. What, in your opinion, was the cause of death?

Dr. Carrico. A head injury.

Mr. Specter. Have you now described all the treatment which was given to the President as best you recollect it?

Dr. Carrico. As I recall; yes, sir; that's all—I'm sorry.

Mr. Specter. Did you have any occasion or opportunity to examine the President's clothing?

Dr. Carrico. We did not do that.

Mr. Specter. And was no examination of clothing made, Dr. Carrico?

Dr. Carrico. Again, this was a matter of time. The clothes were removed by the nurses, as is the usual practice, and the full attention was devoted to trying to resuscitate the President.

Mr. Specter. On the examination of the President's back which you described that you performed, did you note any bleeding from the back?

Dr. Carrico. There was considerable blood on the cart and on his back. I could not tell if this came from his back or had fallen down from the head injury. There was also some cerebral tissue there.

Mr. Specter. What did your examination by feeling disclose with respect to whether he had any back wound?

Dr. Carrico. I did not feel any. Now, this certainly wouldn't detect a small bullet entrance. All this examination is designed to do is to establish the fact that there is no gross injury to the chest posteriorly.

Mr. Specter. Is that a routine type of examination, to ascertain whether there is a gross injury to the chest posteriorly?

Dr. Carrico. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. What did you observe as to the President's clothing with respect to the presence of a back brace, if any?

Dr. Carrico. There was, on removing the President's shirt and coat, we noted he was wearing a standard back support.

Mr. Specter. Would you describe that back support, please?

Dr. Carrico. As I recall, it was white cotton or some fibrous support, with staves, bones and if I remember buckled in the front.

Mr. Specter. How wide was it?

Dr. Carrico. How wide?

Mr. Specter. Yes, sir.

Dr. Carrico. I don't know; I didn't examine below—you see—as I recall, it came about to his umbilicus—navel area.

Mr. Specter. Was there any Ace bandage applied to the President's hips that you observed?

Dr. Carrico. No; I didn't remove his pants.

Mr. Specter. Did you have any opportunity to observe that area of his body when his pants were removed?

Dr. Carrico. I had the opportunity, but I didn't look.

Mr. Specter. What doctors were involved in the treatment of President Kennedy?

Dr. Carrico. Well, of course, Dr. Perry, Dr. Clark, Dr. Baxter, Dr. McClelland, Dr. Peters was in the room, Dr. Bashour, Dr. Ronald Jones, Dr. Curtis, I believe, Dr. White was there—initially, at least, I don't recall right offhand anyone else. There were other doctors in there, I just can't specifically remember—there were 10 or 15 people in the room before it was over.

5 Mr. Specter. Do you have an opinion, Dr. Carrico, as to the cause of the punctate wound in the President's throat?

Dr. Carrico. No; I really don't—just on the basis of what I know. We didn't make an attempt, as you know, to ascertain the track of the bullets.

Mr. Specter. I can't hear you.

Dr. Carrico. As you know, we didn't try to ascertain the track of the bullets.

Mr. Specter. And why did you not make an effort to determine the track of the bullets?

Dr. Carrico. Again, in trying to resuscitate the President, the time to do this was not available. The examination conducted was one to try to establish what life threatening situations were present and to correct these.

Mr. Specter. Was there any discussion among the doctors who attended President Kennedy as to the cause of the neck wound?

Dr. Carrico. Yes; after that afternoon.

Mr. Specter. And what conversations were there?

Dr. Carrico. As I recall, Dr. Perry and I talked and tried after—later in the afternoon to determine what exactly had happened, and we were not aware of the missile wound to the back, and postulated that this was either a tangential wound from a fragment, possibly another entrance wound. It could have been an exit wound, but we knew of no other entrance wound.

Mr. Specter. Was the wound in the neck consistent with being either an entry or exit wound, in your opinion?

Dr. Carrico. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Or, did it look to be more one than the other?

Dr. Carrico. No; it could have been either, depending on the size of the missile, the velocity of the missile, the tissues that it struck.

Mr. Specter. Dr. Carrico, assume these facts, if you will—first, that President Kennedy was struck by a 6.5-mm. missile which entered the upper-right posterior thorax, just above the scapula, being 14 cm. from the tip of the right acromion, a-c-r-o-m-i-o-n (spelling) process, and 14 cm. below the tip of the right mastoid process, and that the missile traveled between two strap muscles, proceeded through the fascia channel without violating the pleural cavity, striking the side of the trachea and exiting in the lower third of the anterior throat. Under the circumstances which I have just described to you, would the wound which you observed on the President's throat be consistent with the damage which a 6.5-mm. missile, traveling at the rate of approximately 2,000 feet per second, that being muzzle velocity, with the President being 160 to 250 feet away from the rifle, would that wound be consistent with that type of a weapon at that distance, with the missile taking the path I have just described to you?

Dr. Carrico. I certainly think it could.

Mr. Specter. And what would your thinking be as to why it could produce that result?

Dr. Carrico. I think a missile of this size, traveling in such a direction that it had very little deformity, struck nothing which would cause it to begin tumbling, and was slowed very little by passing through this relatively easy traversed planes, would not expend a great deal of energy on exit and would very likely not tumble, thus producing a small, round, even wound.

Mr. Specter. What has been your experience, if any, with gunshot wounds?

Dr. Carrico. In working in the emergency room at Parkland, we have seen a fairly good number of gunshot wounds, and with .22 and .25 caliber weapons of somewhat, possibly somewhat lower velocity but at closer range, we have seen entrance and exit wounds of almost the same size, especially the same size, when passing through superficial structures.

Mr. Specter. And what superficial structures did those missiles pass through to which you have just referred?

Dr. Carrico. The ones I was referring to in particular were through the muscles of the leg superficially.

Mr. Specter. Approximately how many missile wounds, bullet wounds, have you had an opportunity to observe in your practice, Doctor?

Dr. Carrico. I would guess 150 or 200.

Mr. Specter. Would you describe as precisely for me as possible the nature of the head wound which you observed on the President?

6 Dr. Carrico. The wound that I saw was a large gaping wound, located in the right occipitoparietal area. I would estimate to be about 5 to 7 cm. in size, more or less circular, with avulsions of the calvarium and scalp tissue. As I stated before, I believe there was shredded macerated cerebral and cerebellar tissues both in the wounds and on the fragments of the skull attached to the dura.

Mr. Specter. Did you notice any other opening in the head besides the one you have just described?

Dr. Carrico. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. Specter. Specifically, did you notice a bullet wound below the large gaping hole which you described?

Dr. Carrico. No, sir.

Mr. Specter. What is your opinion, Doctor, if you have one, as to how many bullets were involved in the injuries inflicted on the President?

Dr. Carrico. As far as I could tell, I would guess that there were two.

Mr. Specter. Prior to today, have you ever been interviewed by any representative of the Federal Government?

Dr. Carrico. Yes, sir; the Secret Service talked to us shortly after the President's death.

Mr. Specter. Do you recall who talked to you on that occasion?

Dr. Carrico. No; I don't recall his name.

Mr. Specter. What was the content of that interview?

Dr. Carrico. We spoke to him in Dr. Shires' office in the medical school concerning the President's death, mostly my part was just a statement that the written statement that I had submitted was true.

Mr. Specter. I now call your attention, Doctor, to a document heretofore identified as Commission Exhibit No. 392, to a 2-page summary which purports to bear your signature, and dated November 22, 1963, 1626 hours, and ask you first of all if that is a photostatic copy of a report which you submitted?

Dr. Carrico. Yes; it is.

Mr. Specter. And, is that your signature at the end?

Dr. Carrico. Yes.

Mr. Specter. And are the facts set forth in there true and correct?

Dr. Carrico. They are.

Mr. Specter. With respect to this notation of a ragged wound of the trachea, which is contained in your report, could you describe that in more specific detail?

Dr. Carrico. In inserting the endotracheal tube, a larynzo scope was inserted and it was noted that there was some discoloration at the lateral edge of the larynx and there appeared to be some swelling and hematoma and in looking through the chords which were partially open, a ragged tissue and some blood was seen within the trachea itself. This was the extent of what I saw.

Mr. Specter. Would that specific portion of the wound give any indication as to direction of the bullet?

Dr. Carrico. No; it wouldn't.

Mr. Specter. Was there any characteristic within the neck area to give any indication of the direction of the bullet?

Dr. Carrico. No, sir.

Mr. Specter. Did the Secret Service man whom you just described ask you any questions beyond whether the contents of your report were true?

Dr. Carrico. I can't recall any specific questions. He did ask some others and they did concern the wounds, and what we felt the wounds were from, the direction, and so forth.

Mr. Specter. And what response did you make to those inquiries?

Dr. Carrico. Essentially the same as I have here. I said I don't remember specifically.

Mr. Specter. Have you talked to any other representative of the Federal Government prior to today?

Dr. Carrico. Not in connection with this.

Mr. Specter. Well, have you talked to someone in connection with something else?

Dr. Carrico. Just some Government employment—Civil Service.

7 Mr. Specter. But the only time you talked to anyone about your treatment of President Kennedy and your observations relating to that treatment was on this one occasion with the Secret service?

Dr. Carrico. Yes; except I just recalled since that time, another Secret Service Agent—I did speak to him briefly. He asked me if I had any other information and I said "no".

Mr. Specter. Is that the total contents of that conversation?

Dr. Carrico. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Prior to the time we went on the record here before you were sworn in, did you and I have a brief conversation about the purpose of this disposition, and the general nature of the questions which I would ask you?

Dr. Carrico. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. And was the information which you gave me at that time the same as that to which you have testified here on the record?

Dr. Carrico. Yes; it was.

Mr. Specter. Have you ever changed any of your opinions regarding your treatment and observations of President Kennedy?

Dr. Carrico. Not as I recall.

Mr. Specter. By the way, Dr. Carrico, how old are you at the present time?

Dr. Carrico. Twenty-eight.

Mr. Specter. Was any bullet found in the President's body.

Dr. Carrico. Not by us.

Mr. Specter. Do you have any other notes or written record of any sort concerning your treatment of President Kennedy?

Dr. Carrico. Not concerning the treatment. I have a note I wrote to my children for them to read some day, but it doesn't concern the treatment.

Mr. Specter. What does that concern?

Dr. Carrico. It just concerns the day and how I felt about it and why it happened—maybe.

Mr. Specter. Personal observations on your part?

Dr. Carrico. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Did you participate in any of the press conferences?

Dr. Carrico. No.

Mr. Specter. Do you have anything to add which you think might be of assistance in any way to the President's Commission?

Dr. Carrico. No, sir; I don't believe I do.

Mr. Specter. Dr. Carrico, have I made available to you a letter requesting your appearance on Monday, March 30, before the Commission, and do you acknowledge receipt of that?

Dr. Carrico. I do.

Mr. Specter. And would it be possible for you to attend and testify at that time?

Dr. Carrico. I certainly can.

Mr. Specter. Washington, D.C.

Dr. Carrico. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Thank you very much, Dr. Carrico.

Dr. Carrico. Yes, sir.

TESTIMONY OF DR. MALCOLM OLIVER PERRY

The testimony of Dr. Malcolm Oliver Perry was taken at 3:25 p.m., on March 25, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. Specter. May the record show that Dr. Malcolm O. Perry is present in response to a letter request that he appear here to have his deposition taken in connection with the proceedings of the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy, which is now inquiring into all facets of the8 shooting, including the medical attention received by President Kennedy at Parkland Hospital, in which Dr. Perry participated.

With that preliminary statement of purpose, would you please stand up, Dr. Perry, and raise your right hand?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give before the President's Commission in these deposition proceedings will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Dr. Perry. I do.

Mr. Specter. All right. Would you state your full name for the record, please?

Dr. Perry. Malcolm Oliver Perry.

Mr. Specter. What is your profession, sir?

Dr. Perry. Physician and surgeon.

Mr. Specter. And how old are you?

Dr. Perry. Thirty-four.

Mr. Specter. Are you duly licensed to practice medicine in the State of Texas?

Dr. Perry. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Would you outline briefly your educational background, please?

Dr. Perry. Starting with high school?

Mr. Specter. That will be fine.

Dr. Perry. I attended high school at Allen High School and at Plano High School, graduating from the latter in 1947. I entered the University of Texas from whence I duly graduated with a degree of Bachelor of Arts in 1951. I went to Southwestern Medical School of the University of Texas for the subsequent 4 years, graduating in 1955 with a degree of Doctor of Medicine. I interned at Letterman's Army Hospital in San Francisco, and returned to a residency in surgery at Parkland Hospital in July 1958. I finished that residency in June 1962, and then returned to San Francisco and spent 1 year as additional specialization in vascular surgery. I then returned in September 1963, to Southwestern Medical School of the University of Texas as an assistant professor of surgery.

Mr. Specter. What were your duties on November 22, 1963?

Dr. Perry. Well, as is accustomed, I was at that time on two services, both a general surgery service and a vascular surgery service as a consultant and attending surgeon.

Mr. Specter. And, what were you doing specifically shortly after noontime on November 22?

Dr. Perry. Well, at the time of the incident in question, I was having lunch in the main dining room with the chief resident, Dr. Ronald Jones, in preparation for the usual Friday rounds at 1 o'clock with the residents.

Mr. Specter. And what occurred during the course of that luncheon?

Dr. Perry. Dr. Jones, as I say, and I were having lunch when an emergency call came over the speaker system for Dr. Tom Shires, who is the chief of surgery. I knew that Dr. Shires was in Galveston giving a paper and was not in the hospital, so Dr. Jones picked up the page to see if he or I could be of assistance. We were informed by the hospital operator that Mr. Kennedy had been shot and was being brought to Parkland Hospital for care.

Mr. Specter. And what action did you take as a result of learning those factors?

Dr. Perry. The dining room was located one floor up from the emergency room, so Dr. Jones and I went immediately to the emergency room to render what assistance we could.

At the time of our arrival in the emergency room, the President was already there, and as I entered trauma room No. 1, Dr. James Carrico, the surgical resident on duty, had just placed an endotracheal tube to assist respiration.

Mr. Specter. Who was present in addition to Dr. Carrico, if you recall, at that time?

Dr. Perry. I cannot with accuracy relate all the people that were there—Dr. Carrico, I saw and spoke to briefly. There were several other people in the room. There were several nurses there—I don't know at this time who they were. Mrs. Kennedy was in the room and there was a gentleman with her and9 there were several other gentlemen both in the door and right outside the door to the room. Some of them, I assume, part of the legal force.

Mr. Specter. Did you observe any other doctors in the room at that time?

Dr. Perry. No, sir; I did not. There was somebody else in the room, but I don't know who it was. I remember only Dr. Carrico—I had the impression that one of the interns was in the room, but this may be an impression gathered after the fact.

Mr. Specter. What did you observe as to the President's condition at the time you first saw him?

Dr. Perry. He was lying supine on the emergency cart directly in the center of the room under the overhead lamp. His shirt had, been removed, and intravenous infusion was being begun in the right leg, I believe. Dr. Carrico was at the head of the table attaching the oxygen apparatus to assist in respiration.

I noted there was a large wound of the right posterior parietal area in the head exposing lacerated brain. There was blood and brain tissue on the cart. The President's eyes were deviated and dilated and he was unresponsive. There was a small wound in the lower anterior third in the midline of the neck, from which blood was exuding very slowly.

Mr. Specter. Will you describe that wound as precisely as you can, please?

Dr. Perry. The wound was roughly spherical to oval in shape, not a punched-out wound, actually, nor was it particularly ragged. It was rather clean cut, but the blood obscured any detail about the edges of the wound exactly.

Mr. Specter. What was the condition of the edges of the wound, if you can recollect?

Dr. Perry. I couldn't state with certainty, due to the fact that they were covered by blood and I did not make a minute examination. I determined only the fact that there was a wound there, roughly 5 mm. in size or so.

Mr. Specter. Have you now described it as precisely as you can; that wound?

Dr. Perry. I think so.

Mr. Specter. What else, if anything, did you observe as to the condition of the President?

Dr. Perry. Spasmodic respiratory efforts were obvious, but I did not detect a pulse nor a heart beat on a very rapid examination. It was apparent that respirations were ineffective, even with the use of the endotracheal tube and oxygen. At that point I asked Dr. Carrico if this was a wound in his neck or had he begun the tracheotomy, and he said it was a wound and I, at that point, asked someone to get me a tracheotomy tray, and put on some gloves and initiated the procedure.

Mr. Specter. Now, have you described everything that you can recollect about your observations of the President before you started to work on him?

Dr. Perry. There was no evidence to that cursory examination of any other wound. I did not move the President. I did not turn him over.

Mr. Specter. Why did you not turn him over?

Dr. Perry. At that point it was necessary to attend to the emergent procedure and a satisfactory effective airway is uppermost in such a condition. If you are unable to obtain an effective airway, then the other procedures are to be of no avail.

Mr. Specter. Well, on the subject of turning him over, did you ever turn him over?

Dr. Perry. I did not.

Mr. Specter. Why didn't you turn him over after you had taken the initial action on him?

Dr. Perry. After the tracheotomy tube was in place and we were breathing for him, Dr. Clark and I had begun external cardiac massage, since we had been unable to detect a heart beat, blood pressure, or pulse. I continued with the cardiac massage while Dr. Clark examined the head wound, and he and Dr. Jenkins conferred in regard to the electrocardiogram. It was determined that none of the resuscitative measures were effective and the procedures were then abandoned.

I had no further business in the room at that point, and I left the room momentarily. I returned within a minute or so, because I had left my coat10 where I dropped it and asked one of the nurses to hand me my coat, and I left the room and went to the operating suite from there.

Mr. Specter. And did that conclude your participation in the treatment of President Kennedy?

Dr. Perry. It did.

Mr. Specter. What is your best estimate as to the time you arrived in the Emergency Room?

Dr. Perry. I really don't know the time. It was about 12:30 or so when I was eating and the call must have come thereabouts, and I didn't look at my watch at that time, nor did I have an opportunity to look at it again until after I had left the room.

Mr. Specter. What is your best estimate as to the time which elapsed from the point that you knew it was 12:30, until the time you arrived at the emergency room?

Dr. Perry. It must have been within the next few minutes. I really don't know. As I say, we were sitting there eating and I had no occasion to look at my watch again. At that time I was much too busy to consult it further.

Mr. Specter. What is your best estimate as to the time you left the emergency room after finishing your treatment and work on the President?

Dr. Perry. After I left trauma room No. 1, I went outside and washed my hands and then I retrieved my coat and I sat down for a few minutes in a chair there in the emergency room for probably 10 or 15 minutes, I suppose, and then I went from there to the operating suite to assist in the care of the Governor, so I must have left the emergency room probably somewhere around 1:15 or 1:20, I would gather.

Mr. Specter. At approximately what time was the President pronounced to be dead?

Dr. Perry. I don't know this for a fact, other than what was related to me by Dr. Clark, and he tells me that this was at 1 o'clock. Once again, I did not verify the time.

Mr. Specter. Have you described all of the efforts which were made to revive the President?

Dr. Perry. There were other procedures done that I did not do during this period. I did not describe in detail the performance of the tracheotomy. It seems that that is really not necessary at this time, unless you want it.

Mr. Specter. Will you describe it in detail, the procedures which were followed in the efforts to save the President's life?

Dr. Perry. All right. Well, to regress, then, at the time I began the tracheotomy, I made an incision right through the wound which was present in the neck in order to gain complete control of any injury in the underlying trachea.

I made a transverse incision right through this wound and carried it down to the superficial fascia, to expose the strap muscles overlying the thyroid and the trachea. There was an injury to the right lateral aspect of the trachea at the level of the external wound. The trachea was deviated slightly to the left and it was necessary to divide the strap muscles on the left side in order to gain access to the trachea. At this point, I recall, Dr. Jones right on my left was placing a catheter into a vein in the left arm because he handed me a necessary instrument which I needed in the performance of the procedure.

The wound in the trachea was then enlarged to admit a cuffed tracheotomy tube to support respiration. I noted that there was free air and blood in the superior right mediastinum.

Although I saw no injury to the lung or to the pleural space, the presence of this free blood and air in this area could be indicative of a wound of the right hemithorax, and I asked that someone put a right chest tube in for seal drainage. At the time I did not know who did this, but I have been informed that Dr. Baxter and Dr. Paul Peters inserted the chest tube and connected it to underwater drainage.

Blood transfusions and fluid transfusions were being given at this time, and through the previous venesections that had been done by Dr. Jones and Dr. Carrico.

Also, the President had received 300 mg. of Solucortef in order to support11 his adrenal glands, since it was common medical knowledge that he suffered from adrenal insufficiency.

Of course, oxygen and pressure breathing were being effected under the guidance of Dr. Jenkins and Dr. Giesecke, who were handling the anesthesia machine at the head of the table.

Dr. Bashour and Dr. Seldin, in addition to Dr. Clark, had arrived and also assisted in monitoring cardiac actions, as indicated by the oscilloscope and the cardiotachioscope.

Mr. Specter. Have you now described all of the operative procedures performed on the President?

Dr. Perry. Yes, all that I am familiar with.

Mr. Specter. Are there any doctors who participated other than those whom you have already identified in the course of your description?

Dr. Perry. Yes, sir; immediately on arriving there, and as I say, Dr. Jones and I, and I saw Dr. Carrico, and I have the impression there was another physician there, but I don't know who it was. I asked that an emergency call be placed for Dr. Kemp Clark, chief of neurosurgery, for Dr. Robert McClelland, and Dr. Charles Baxter, assistant professors of surgery. They responded immediately. I don't know how long it took them to get there, but they were probably there within the next few minutes. My first recollection of Dr. McClelland and Dr. Baxter being there was when I was doing the tracheotomy, they suddenly were there assisting me. I don't know when they came in the room, nor do I know when Dr. Clark or the other gentlemen arrived, and there must have been 10 or 12 doctors all told by then.

Mr. Specter. Are there any others whom you could identify?

Dr. Perry. Dr. Peters—I previously mentioned, Dr. Paul Peters, assistant professor of urology, Dr. Fouad Bashour, associate professor of medicine, and chief of cardiology, and Dr. Don Seldin, chief of medicine.

I mentioned Dr. M. T. Jenkins, chief of anesthesia, and Dr. Giesecke, his assistant professor of anesthesiology—that's the only people that I saw directly.

Mr. Specter. Could the first doctor whom you saw have been Dr. Don Curtis?

Dr. Perry. That's entirely possible—I don't recall.

Mr. Specter. Was Dr. Dulany there?

Dr. Perry. I have initially had the impression that Dr. Dulany was in the room when I came in there, but as I understand it, he actually was just going into the room across the hall, but he was there by the door when I came in, but I had the impression he was leaving that room, but I understand he was not, that actually he was going—just going in the room across the hall with the Governor, although I initially thought Dr. Dulany was there.

Mr. Specter. What did you observe, if anything with respect to bruising in the interior portion of the President's neck?

Dr. Perry. There was considerable hematoma in the right lateral portion of the neck and the right superior mediastinum, as I noted. As for bruising, per se, it would be difficult to describe that, since by definition, hematoma would be a collection of blood, and there was so much blood that the tissues were discolored. I did not attempt to ascertain trajectory or path of the bullet at the time, but directed myself to obtaining an adequate airway and carried my examination no further down than it was necessary to assure myself that the trachea was controlled and that there was no large vessel injury at that level.

Mr. Specter. Were there sufficient facts available to you for you to reach a conclusion as to the cause of the wound on the front side of the President's neck?

Dr. Perry. No, sir, there was not. I could not determine whether or how this was inflicted, per se, since it would require tracing the trajectory.

Mr. Specter. What did you observe as to the President's head, specifically?

Dr. Perry. I saw no injuries other than the one which I noted to you, which was a large avulsive injury of the right occipitoparietal area, but I did not do a minute examination of his head.

Mr. Specter. Did you notice a bullet hole below the large avulsed area?

Dr. Perry. No; I did not.

Mr. Specter. Dr. Perry, earlier I asked you whether you turned over the12 President at any time during the course of your treatment or examination of him, and you indicated that you had not, and I then asked you why, and you proceeded to tell me of the things that you did in sequence, as being priority items to try to save his life. Why did you not turn him over at the conclusion of those operative procedures?

Dr. Perry. Well, actually, I didn't have a specific reason, other than it had been determined that he had expired. There was nothing further that I could do and it was not my particular prerogative to make a minute examination to determine any other cause. I felt that that was a little bit out of my domain.

Mr. Specter. Did you have any occasion to examine the President's clothing to ascertain direction of the missile?

Dr. Perry. No; I did not. The only aspect of clothing that I know about—I happen to recall pushing up the brace which he had on in an attempt to feel a femoral pulse when I arrived, and I could not, but the shirt had been removed by the personnel there in the emergency room, I assume.

Mr. Specter. What did you observe as to the description of that brace?

Dr. Perry. I couldn't give you a description. I just saw and felt the lower edge of one, and I reached to feel the left femoral pulse.

Mr. Specter. Did you see whether the President was wearing any sort of an Ace bandage on the midsection of his body when his trousers were taken down?

Dr. Perry. There was evidence of an Ace bandage—I saw it sticking out from the edge on the right side, as I recall. I don't believe it was on the midsection, although it may have been. I believe it was on his right leg—his right thigh.

Mr. Specter. Do you know whether it was on the left leg and thigh as well?

Dr. Perry. No, I don't. I just saw that briefly when I was reaching for that pulse and I didn't do any examination at all of the lower trunk or lower extremities.

Mr. Specter. Did you personally make any examination by feeling, or in any other way, of the President's back?

Dr. Perry. I did not.

Mr. Specter. Did you participate in a press conference or press conferences following the death of the President?

Dr. Perry. Yes.

Mr. Specter. And when was the first of such press conferences?

Dr. Perry. I don't know the exact time, Mr. Specter. It must have been within the hour, I would say; I don't know exactly.

Mr. Specter. And who was present at that press conference by way of identifying, if you can, the members of the news media?

Dr. Perry. I have no idea. The press conference was held in classrooms 1 and 2 combined here at Parkland. The room was quite full of people. I remember noting some surprise how quickly they had put in a couple of telephones at the back. There were numerous cameras and lights, and flashbulbs, and I went there with one of the administrators, Mr. Landregan, and Dr. Kemp Clark and Mr. Hawkes, who was identified to me as being with the White House Press. I don't know—there were numerous people of the press.

Mr. Specter. What doctors appeared and spoke at that press conference?

Dr. Perry. Dr. Clark, myself, and Dr. Baxter was also there. He arrived a little bit late. I called him just before I went down and asked him and Dr. McClelland to come. I could not find Dr. McClelland. He apparently was busy with a patient at the time. I recall Dr. Baxter came in after the press conference had begun, but I don't believe he said anything. Dr. Clark and I answered the majority of the questions.

Mr. Specter. Well, what questions were asked of you and what responses did you give at that press conference?

Dr. Perry. Well, there were numerous questions asked, all the questions I cannot remember, of course. Specifically, the thing that seemed to be of most interest at that point was actually trying to get me to speculate as to direction of the bullets, the number of bullets, and the exact cause of death.

The first two questions I could not answer, and my reply to them was that I did not know, if there were one or two bullets, and I could not categorically state about the nature of the neck wound, whether it was an entrance or an13 exit wound, not having examined the President further—I could not comment on any other injuries.

As regards the cause of death, Dr. Clark and I concurred that massive brain trauma with attendant severe hemorrhage was the underlying cause of death, and then there were questions asked in regard to what we did, and I described as I have for you, although not in such detail—essentially the resuscitative measures that were taken at that time; namely, the reinfusion of a balanced salt solution of blood, Solucortef, assisting of respiration with oxygen and pressure apparatus, the tracheotomy, and the chest tubes and the monitoring with the cardiotachioscope.

Mr. Specter. Did you express a view as to what might have happened with respect to the number of bullets?

Dr. Perry. I was asked by several of the people of the press, initially, if there were one or two or more bullets, and to that, Dr. Clark and I both replied that we could not say. I was then asked if it was conceivable that it could have been caused by one bullet, and I replied in the affirmative, that I did not know, but it was conceivable.

Mr. Specter. Did you elaborate on how it could have been caused by one bullet?

Dr. Perry. I was asked if this were one bullet, how would it occur, and I said, "It is conceivable or possible that a bullet could enter and strike the spinal column and be deviated superiorly to exit from the head."

Mr. Specter. And where would that point of entry have been?

Dr. Perry. The surmise was made that if the point of entry were in the neck, how would it have happened, and that is the way I would have reconstructed it. Again, this was speculation.

Mr. Specter. Did you denominate it clearly as speculation?

Dr. Perry. I did.

Mr. Specter. Or, what could have been as opposed to what your opinion was?

Dr. Perry. I did. I said this was conceivable—this was possible, but again, Dr. Clark and I emphasized again that we did not know whether there was one or two bullets.

Mr. Specter. Did you express any view as to whether it might have been one bullet or two bullets or either, or what?

Dr. Perry. I said I did not know.

Mr. Specter. And were you asked any other questions at that press conference that you can recollect as being important at this time?

Dr. Perry. Someone did ask us about Mrs. Kennedy, and I recall that I mentioned that I did not speak to her, but that she was very composed and very quiet.

Mr. Specter. Now, were you a part of any other press conferences?

Dr. Perry. Yes; I was.

Mr. Specter. And when did the next one occur?

Dr. Perry. There were several organized press conferences that occurred in the administration suite in the hospital, Mr. Specter, and I don't know the exact times of these. There were several later that afternoon. There were some the following day, on Saturday, also held in the administrator's office, and then there were subsequent conferences in relation to the other incident that occurred on Sunday with Mr. Oswald. I don't know how many there were.

Mr. Specter. Were all these conferences set up by the administration of the hospital?

Dr. Perry. They were all conducted here. They weren't necessarily—I wouldn't say—set up by the administration. They were done here at the hospital, with one exception, of which you are aware, that I spoke with you about the gentleman that came to me when I was out of town.

Mr. Specter. Will you elaborate upon what occurred on that occasion, please?

Dr. Perry. I had taken the course of complying with the press insofar as was possible about what I could speak that was common knowledge and which had already been covered at the initial press conference. I had done that in the administrative suite or in the hospital or in the medical school under an organized situation as opposed to doing it, say, at home.

14 I left town Monday following the incident on Sunday with Oswald, in order to secure a little bit of rest for myself and my family, and approximately 36 hours later, members of the press had located me and requested an interview, which I granted, denying any photographs and the interview consisted of essentially the same thing that I had given to the previous press conference at the hospital.

Mr. Specter. Where was that interview conducted?

Dr. Perry. That was in McAllen, Tex.

Mr. Specter. In the course of all of these press conferences did you say anything other than that which you have already related you said during the course of the first press conference?

Dr. Perry. That would require a little bit of thought. I don't think in essence I said anything different. Of course, the wording certainly would have been different. I subsequently had a little bit more knowledge about the initial episode attendant of course upon my discussions with the other doctors and the writing out of our statements, knowledge which I did not have initially, which may have made subsequent statements perhaps more accurate as regards to time and people, but in essence, things that I did and things that I said that I did are essentially the same in all of these.

Mr. Specter. Dr. Perry, I now show you a group of papers heretofore identified as Commission Exhibit No. 392, and I turn to two sheets which are dated November 22, 1963, which have the name "Perry" beside the doctor and purport to bear your signature, and the time—1630 hours, 22 November 1963, and I ask you if this is a photostatic copy of the handwritten report which you submitted concerning the attention you gave to the President on the day of the assassination?

Dr. Perry. Yes; it is.

Mr. Specter. Is this your signature appearing on the second sheet?

Dr. Perry. That is my signature.

Mr. Specter. And are the facts set forth herein true and correct?

Dr. Perry. They are, to the best of my knowledge, correct.

Mr. Specter. Dr. Perry, have contents of the autopsy report conducted at Bethesda Naval Hospital been made available to you?

Dr. Perry. They have.

Mr. Specter. And are the findings in the autopsy report consistent with your observations and conclusions concerning the source and nature of the President's wounds?

Dr. Perry. Yes; they are. I think there are no discrepancies at all. I did not have that information initially, and as a result was somewhat confused about the nature of the wounds, as I noted—I could not tell whether there was one or two bullets, or from whence they came, but the findings of the autopsy report are quite compatible with those findings which I noted at the time that I saw the President.

Mr. Specter. And have you noted in the autopsy report the reference to the presence of a wound on the upper right posterior thorax just above the upper border of the scapula, being 7 by 4 mm. in oval dimension and being located 14 cm. from the tip of the right acromion process and 14 cm. below the tip of the right mastoid process?

Dr. Perry. Yes; I saw that.

Mr. Specter. Assuming that was a point of entry of a missile, which parenthetically was the opinion of the three autopsy surgeons, and assuming still further that the missile which struck the President at that spot was a 6.5-mm. jacketed bullet shot from a rifle at a distance of 166 to 250 feet, having a muzzle velocity of approximately 2,000 feet per second, and that upon entering the President's body, the bullet traveled between two strap muscles, through a fascia channel, without violating the pleural cavity, striking the trachea, causing the damage which you testified about being on the interior of the President's throat, and exited from the President's throat in the wound which you have described in the midline of his neck, would your findings and observations as to the nature of the wound on the throat be consistent with the set of facts I just presented to you?

Dr. Perry. It would be entirely compatible.

15 Mr. Specter. And what is the basis for your conclusion that the situation that I presented to you would be entirely compatible with your observations and findings?

Dr. Perry. The wound in the throat, although as I noted, I did not examine it minutely, was fairly small in nature, and an undeformed, unexpanded missile exiting at rather high speed would leave very little injury behind, since the majority of its energy was expended after it had left the tissues.

Mr. Specter. And would the hole that you observed on the President's throat then be consistent with such an exit wound?

Dr. Perry. It would. There is no way to determine from my examination as to exactly how accurately I could depict an entrance wound from an exit wound, without ascertaining the entire trajectory. Such a wound could be produced by such a missile.

Mr. Specter. Were any facts on trajectory available to you at the time of the press conferences that you described?

Dr. Perry. They were not.

Mr. Specter. In response to an earlier question which I asked you, I believe you testified that you did not have sufficient facts available initially to form an opinion as to the source or direction of the cause of the wound, did you not?

Dr. Perry. That's correct, although several leading questions were directed toward me at the various conferences.

Mr. Specter. And to those leading questions you have said here today that you responded that a number of possibilities were present as to what might have happened?

Dr. Perry. That's correct. I had no way of ascertaining, as I said, the true trajectory. Often questions were directed as to—in such a manner as this: "Doctor, is it possible that if he were in such and such a position and the bullet entered here, could it have done that?" And my reply, "Of course, if it were possible, yes, that is possible, but similarly, it did not have to be so, necessarily."

Mr. Specter. So that, from the physical characteristics which you observed in and of themselves, you could not come to any conclusive opinion?

Dr. Perry. No, sir; I could not, although I have been quoted, I think, as saying, and I might add parenthetically, out of context, without the preceding question which had been directed, as saying that such was the case, when actually, I only admitted that the possibility existed.

Mr. Specter. And in the hypothetical of the rather extended nature that I just gave you that your statement that that is consistent with what you found, is that also predicated upon the veracity of the factors, which I have asked you to assume?

Dr. Perry. That is correct, sir. I have no way to authenticate either by my own knowledge.

Mr. Specter. Has your recollection of the nature of the President's neck wound changed at any time from November 22 to the present time?

Dr. Perry. No, sir. I recall describing it initially as being between 3 and 5 cm. in size and roughly spherical in shape, not unlike a rather large puncture wound, I believe is the word I used initially.

Mr. Specter. Have you ever changed your opinion on the possible alternatives as to what could have caused the President's wounds?

Dr. Perry. No, sir; I have no knowledge even now of my own as to the cause of the wounds. All I can report on is what I saw, and the wound is that as I have described it. It could have been caused conceivably by any number of objects.

Mr. Specter. So, that the wound that you saw on the President's neck would be consistent with an exit wound under the factors that I described to you?

Dr. Perry. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Or, it might be consistent with an entry wound under a different set of factors?

Dr. Perry. That's correct, sir. I, myself, have no knowledge of that. I do not think that it is consistent, for example, with an exit wound of a large expanded bullet—voluntarily I would add that.

Mr. Specter. Well, would a jacketed 6.5-mm. bullet fit the description of a large expanded bullet?

16 Dr. Perry. No, sir; it would not.

Mr. Specter. Based on the information in the autopsy report about a 6- by 15-mm. hole in the lower part of the President's skull on the right side in conjunction with the large part of the skull of the President which you observed to be missing, would you have an opinion as to the source of the missile which inflicted those wounds?

Dr. Perry. Since I did not see the initial wound which you mentioned, the smaller one, and only saw the large avulsive wound of the head and the scalp, there is no way for me to determine from whence it came.

Mr. Specter. Well, if you assume the presence of the first small wound, taking as a fact that there was such a wound, now, would that present sufficient information for you to formulate an opinion as to source or trajectory?

Dr. Perry. Well, I couldn't testify as to exact source, but if the wound, the smaller wound that you noted were present, it could certainly result in the large avulsive wound as it exited from the skull. As to the ultimate source, there would still be no way for me to tell.

Mr. Specter. Well, could you tell sufficient to comment on whether it came from the front or back of the President?

Dr. Perry. In the absence of other wounds of the head, the presence of the small wound which you described, in addition to the large avulsive wound of the skull and the scalp which I observed would certainly indicate that the two were related and would indicate both an entrance and an exit wound, if there were no other wounds.

Mr. Specter. And which would be the wound of entrance, then?

Dr. Perry. The smaller wound—the smaller wound.

Mr. Specter. Now, did you have occasion to talk via the telephone with Dr. James J. Humes of the Bethesda Naval Hospital?

Dr. Perry. I did.

Mr. Specter. And will you relate the circumstances of the calls indicating first the time when they occurred.

Dr. Perry. Dr. Humes called me twice on Friday afternoon, separated by about 30-minute intervals, as I recall. The first one, I, somehow think I recall the first one must have been around 1500 hours, but I'm not real sure about that; I'm not positive of that at all, actually.

Mr. Specter. Could it have been Saturday morning?

Dr. Perry. Saturday morning—was it? It's possible. I remember talking with him twice. I was thinking it was shortly thereafter.

Mr. Specter. Well, the record will show.

Dr. Perry. Oh, sure, it was Saturday morning—yes.

Mr. Specter. What made you change your view of that?

Dr. Perry. You mean Friday?

Mr. Specter. Did some specific recollection occur to you which changed your view from Friday to Saturday?

Dr. Perry. No, I was trying to place where I was at that time—Friday afternoon, and at that particular time, when I paused to think about it, I was actually up in the operating suite at that time, when I thought that he called initially. I seem to remember it being Friday, for some reason.

Mr. Specter. Where were you when you received those calls?

Dr. Perry. I was in the Administrator's office here when he called.

Mr. Specter. And what did he ask you, if anything?

Dr. Perry. He inquired about, initially, about the reasons for my doing a tracheotomy, and I replied, as I have to you, during this procedure, that there was a wound in the lower anterior third of the neck, which was exuding blood and was indicative of a possible tracheal injury underlying, and I did the tracheotomy through a transverse incision made through that wound, and I described to him the right lateral injury to the trachea and the completion of the operation.

He subsequently called back—at that time he told me, of course, that he could not talk to me about any of it and asked that I keep it in confidence, which I did, and he subsequently called back and inquired about the chest tubes, and why they were placed and I replied in part as I have here. It was somewhat more detailed. After having talked to Drs. Baxter and Peters and I identified them17 as having placed it in the second interspace, anteriorly, in the midclavicular line, in the right hemithorax, he asked me at that time if we had made any wounds in the back. I told him that I had not examined the back nor had I knowledge of any wounds of the back.

Mr. Specter. Would you relate the circumstances surrounding an article which appeared about you in the Saturday Evening Post, Dr. Perry?

Dr. Perry. The Saturday Evening Post contacted the department of surgery here, and talked with Dr. Tom Shires, chief of surgical services, in regard to a possible article on the treatment of the President. This was declined by us, and we requested that no such article be printed, and Dr. Shires informed me shortly thereafter about this conversation. Subsequently, an article was printed, which apparently was a copyrighted item. It first appeared in the New York Herald Tribune. It contained my picture and a picture of trauma room No. 1, and described the incidents surrounding the treatment of the President. Some of that information was obtained by personal interview of myself and Dr. Shires on Saturday morning, and I assume that the rest of it was obtained from various people here.

Mr. Specter. Was the content of that story accurate?

Dr. Perry. There were certain inaccuracies—the overall content was fairly consistent—there were inaccuracies in identification of participants and there were some inaccuracies in regards to conversations purported to have been held, and I do not, however, have knowledge about some of the other references made in the article, since they were apparently based on interviews with people other than myself.

Mr. Specter. Dr. Perry, have you talked to any representatives of the Federal Government about this matter prior to today?

Dr. Perry. Yes, I have.

Mr. Specter. Would you relate whom you have talked to and on what occasions? As best you can recollect it.

Dr. Perry. Well, I talked to several people, and I regret that I did not keep a record of it, and I find at this time that a lot of these things such as Dr. Humes' call, I suppose I should have kept a little better record, since everything was so kaleidoscopic that I have a very difficult time putting the proper sequence on it. I talked to several people who identified themselves both by name and with credentials as being affiliated with the Secret Service.

Mr. Specter. On how many occasions have you talked with Secret Service personnel?

Dr. Perry. At least three times, sir. Now, I can't give you the exact dates of these, and unfortunately the last two gentlemen, I can't even remember their names now.

Mr. Specter. How about the first gentleman?

Dr. Perry. No, his either. I was trying to think of the last two. I indicated that they both had the same last name, but at the present time it escapes me.

Mr. Specter. What did you tell them in essence?

Dr. Perry. Essentially what I have told you in regard to my impressions and my care of the President.

Mr. Specter. Has there ever been any variation in the information which you have given the Federal investigators?

Dr. Perry. No, sir; not in essence. There may have been a variation in wording or sequence of my presentation, but the treatment as I outlined it to you and as I outlined it to them, to the best of my knowledge, has been essentially consistent.

Mr. Specter. Have you talked to any other representatives of the Federal Government besides the Secret Service men?

Dr. Perry. I talked to two gentlemen initially within—who identified themselves as being with the Federal Bureau of Investigation. I do not recall their names either.

Mr. Specter. What did they ask you about?

Dr. Perry. Essentially the same questions in regard to what I might speculate as to the origin of the missiles and their trajectory, and I replied to them as I have to you that I could not ascertain this of my own knowledge, and described the wounds to the extent I saw them.

18 Mr. Specter. Have you set forth here today the same information which you gave to the FBI?

Dr. Perry. Yes, I think this is considerably in more detail, being essentially the same thing.

Mr. Specter. Have you now told me about all of the talks you have had with representatives of the Federal Government prior to today?

Dr. Perry. I think I have.

Mr. Specter. And did you and I sit down and talk about the purpose of this deposition and the questions which I would be asking you on the record, before this deposition started?

Dr. Perry. Yes; we did.

Mr. Specter. And did you give me the same information which you provided on the record here today?

Dr. Perry. I have.

Mr. Specter. Do you have anything to add which you think might be helpful in any way to the President's Commission?

Dr. Perry. No, sir.

Mr. Specter. Dr. Perry, we appreciate your coming for your deposition today, and I have given you a letter requesting your presence in Washington on Monday morning at 9 o'clock and I would ask you, for the record, to acknowledge receipt of letter, if you will, please.

Dr. Perry. Yes; I have the letter here and I will be there.

Mr. Specter. Thank you, very much, sir. Let me ask you one more question, Dr. Perry, for the record, before we terminate this deposition. What experience have you had, if any, with gunshot wounds?

Dr. Perry. I think in the course of my training here at Parkland, which is a city-county hospital and handles the great majority of the trauma cases that occur in Dallas County, that I have seen a fairly considerable number of traumatic wounds caused by knives, automobile accidents, gunshot wounds of various types.

Mr. Specter. Have you had any experience with gunshot wounds, in addition to that obtained here at Parkland?

Dr. Perry. You mean, in the service?

Mr. Specter. Yes, sir.

Dr. Perry. No, I had occasion to see only one gunshot wound while I was in the service.

Mr. Specter. Can you estimate how many gunshot wounds you have seen while you have been at Parkland?

Dr. Perry. Probably it would be numbered in the hundreds.

Mr. Specter. Have you had any formal training in ballistics?

Dr. Perry. No, other than the fact that I do some hunting and amateur hand loader.

Mr. Specter. Amateur what?

Dr. Perry. Amateur hand loader—hand load ammunition.

Mr. Specter. Thank you very much.

Dr. Perry. All right. Thank you.

TESTIMONY OF DR. WILLIAM KEMP CLARK

The testimony of Dr. William Kemp Clark was taken at 11:50 a.m., on March 21, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. Specter. Would you stand up please, Dr. Clark, and raise your right hand?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you will give before the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy in this deposition19 proceeding will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Dr. Clark. I do.

Mr. Specter. You may be seated.

Dr. Clark. Thank you.

Mr. Specter. The President's Commission is investigating all facts related to the Assassination of President Kennedy, and you have been asked to testify in this deposition proceeding relating to the medical treatment received by President Kennedy at Parkland Memorial Hospital and all facts incident thereto.

Dr. Clark, have you received a letter from the President's Commission enclosing a copy of the Executive Order establishing the Commission and a copy of a Senate and House Joint Resolution about the Commission, and a letter relating to the taking of testimony by the Commission?

Dr. Clark. I have.

Mr. Specter. And are you willing to proceed with this deposition today, even though 3 days have not elapsed between the time you received the letter and this morning?

Dr. Clark. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Would you state your full name for the record, please?

Dr. Clark. William Kemp Clark.

Mr. Specter. Will you outline in a general way your educational background, please?

Dr. Clark. Yes. I graduated from the University of Texas in Austin, 1944. I graduated from the University of Texas Medical Branch at Galveston in 1948. I interned at Indiana University Medical Center and was a resident in surgery there from 1948 to 1950. I spent 2 years in the Air Force and then took my residency in neurological surgery at Columbia Presbyterian Hospital in New York City. This was from 1953 to 1956, at which time I came to the University of Texas, Southwestern Medical School, as chairman of the division of neurological surgery.

Would you like the professional qualifications?

Mr. Specter. Yes; may I have the professional qualifications in summary form, if you will, please.

Dr. Clark. I am board certified by the American Board of Neurological Surgery. I am a Fellow with the American College of Surgeons. I am a member of the Harvey Cushing Society.

Mr. Specter. What is the Harvey Cushing Society, by the way?

Dr. Clark. It is the largest society of neurological surgeons in the world.

Mr. Specter. And what do your duties consist of with respect to the Southwestern Medical School of the University of Texas?

Dr. Clark. I am in charge of the division of neurological surgery and carry the responsibility of administering this department or this division, to arrange the instruction of medical students in neurological surgery and to conduct research in this field.

Mr. Specter. What were your duties back on November 22, 1963?

Dr. Clark. Essentially these. I also, as chairman of the division, have the responsibility as director of neurological surgery at Parkland Memorial Hospital which is the major teaching hospital of the medical school.

Mr. Specter. Did you receive notification on November 22, 1963, that the President had been wounded and was en route to this hospital?

Dr. Clark. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. Specter. Do you know at approximately what time you got that notification?

Dr. Clark. Approximately 12:20 or 12:30.

Mr. Specter. And what action, if any, did you take as a result of receiving that notification?

Dr. Clark. I went immediately to the emergency room at Parkland Hospital. I was in the laboratory at Southwestern Medical School when this word reached me by phone from the hospital.

Mr. Specter. And at approximately what time did you then arrive at the emergency room?

20 Dr. Clark. I would estimate it took a minute and a half to two minutes, so I would guess that I arrived approximately 12:30.

Mr. Specter. And who was present, if anyone, upon your arrival, attending to the President?

Dr. Clark. Dr. Jenkins, that is M. T. Jenkins, I suppose I ought to say, Dr. Ronald Jones, Dr. Malcolm Perry, Dr. James Carrico; arriving either with me or immediately thereafter were Dr. Robert McClelland, Dr. Paul Peters, and Dr. Charles Baxter.

Mr. Specter. What did you observe the President's condition to be on your arrival there?

Dr. Clark. The President was lying on his back on the emergency cart. Dr. Perry was performing a tracheotomy. There were chest tubes being inserted. Dr. Jenkins was assisting the President's respirations through a tube in his trachea. Dr. Jones and Dr. Carrico were administering fluids and blood intravenously. The President was making a few spasmodic respiratory efforts. I assisted in withdrawing the endotracheal tube from the throat as Dr. Perry was then ready to insert the tracheotomy tube. I then examined the President briefly.

My findings showed his pupils were widely dilated, did not react to light, and his eyes were deviated outward with a slight skew deviation.

I then examined the wound in the back of the President's head. This was a large, gaping wound in the right posterior part, with cerebral and cerebellar tissue being damaged and exposed. There was considerable blood loss evident on the carriage, the floor, and the clothing of some of the people present. I would estimate 1,500 cc. of blood being present.

As I was examining the President's wound, I felt for a carotid pulse and felt none. Therefore, I began external cardiac massage and asked that a cardiotachioscope be connected. Because of my position it was difficult to administer cardiac massage. However, Dr. Jones stated that he felt a femoral pulse.

Mr. Specter. What is a femoral pulse?

Dr. Clark. A femoral artery is the main artery going to the legs, and at the junction of the leg and the trunk you can feel the arterial pulsation in this artery. Because of my position, cardiac massage was taken over by Dr. Malcolm Perry, who was more advantageously situated.

Mr. Specter. What did the cardiotachioscope show at that time?

Dr. Clark. By this time the cardiotachioscope, we just call it a cardiac monitor for a better word——

Mr. Specter. That's a good word.

Dr. Clark. The cardiotachioscope had been attached and Dr. Fouad Bashour had arrived. There was transient electrical activity of the President's heart of an undefined type. Approximately, at this time the external cardiac massage became ineffectual and no pulsations could be felt. At this time it was decided to pronounce the President dead.

Mr. Specter. At what time was this fixed?

Dr. Clark. Death was fixed at 1 p.m.

Mr. Specter. Was that a precise time or an approximate time, or in what way did you fix the time of death at 1 o'clock?

Dr. Clark. This was an approximation as it is, first, extremely difficult to state precisely when death occurs. Secondly, no one was monitoring the clock, so an approximation of 1 o'clock was chosen.

Mr. Specter. Who was it who actually fixed the time of death?

Dr. Clark. I did.

Mr. Specter. And did you have any part in the filling out of the death certificate?

Dr. Clark. Yes.

Mr. Specter. And what did you do with respect to that?

Dr. Clark. I filled out the death certificate at the request of Dr. George Burkley, the President's physician at the White House, signed the death certificate as a registered physician in the State of Texas, and gave this to him to accompany the body to Washington.

21 Mr. Specter. Did you advise anyone else in the Presidential party of the death of the President?

Dr. Clark. Yes; I told Mrs. Kennedy, the President's wife, of his death.

Mr. Specter. And what, if anything, did she respond to you?

Dr. Clark. She told me that she knew it and thanked me for our efforts.

Mr. Specter. Were any bullets or parts of bullets found in the President's body?

Dr. Clark. Not by me, nor did I see any such missiles recovered at Parkland Hospital.

Mr. Specter. Were you a part of any press conference which followed on the day of the assassination?

Dr. Clark. Yes, sir; I was.

Mr. Specter. And who made the arrangements for the press conference?

Dr. Clark. Mr. Malcolm Kilduff, the Presidential press secretary.

Mr. Specter. At what time did the press conference occur?

Dr. Clark. Approximately 2:30.

Mr. Specter. Where was it held?

Dr. Clark. It was held in room 101–102, Parkland Hospital.

Mr. Specter. What mechanical instruments were used, if any, by the press at the conference?

Dr. Clark. Tape recorders and television cameras, as well as the usual note pads and pencils, and so forth.

Mr. Specter. And who was interviewed during the course of the press conference and photographed?

Dr. Clark. Dr. Malcolm Perry and myself.

Mr. Specter. No one else?

Dr. Clark. No.

Mr. Specter. What, if anything, did you say then in the course of that press conference?

Dr. Clark. I described the President's wound in his head in very much the same way as I have described it here. I was asked if this wound was an entrance wound, an exit wound, or what, and I said it could be an exit wound, but I felt it was a tangential wound.

Mr. Specter. Which wound did you refer to at this time?

Dr. Clark. The wound in the head.

Mr. Specter. Did you describe at that time what you meant by "tangential"?

Dr. Clark. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. Specter. What definition of "tangential" did you make at that time?

Dr. Clark. As I remember, I defined the word "tangential" as being—striking an object obliquely, not squarely or head on.

Mr. Specter. Will you describe at this time in somewhat greater detail the consequences of a tangential wound as contrasted with another type of a striking?

Dr. Clark. Let me begin by saying that the damage suffered by an organ when struck by a bullet or other missile——

Mr. Specter. May the record show that I interrupted the deposition for about 2 minutes to ascertain what our afternoon schedule would be here because the regular administration office ordinarily closes at 12 o'clock, which was just about 15 minutes ago, and then we resumed the deposition of Dr. Clark as he was discussing the concept of tangential and other types of striking.

Go ahead, Doctor.

Dr. Clark. The effects of any missile striking an organ or a function of the energy which is shed by the missile in passing through this organ when a bullet strikes the head, if it is able to pass through rapidly without shedding any energy into the brain, little damage results, other than that part of the brain which is directly penetrated by the missile. However, if it strikes the skull at an angle, it must then penetrate much more bone than normal, therefore, is likely to shed more energy, striking the brain a more powerful blow.

Secondly, in striking the bone in this manner, it may cause pieces of the bone to be blown into the brain and thus act as secondary missiles. Finally, the bullet itself may be deformed and deflected so that it would go through or penetrate parts of the brain, not in the usual direct line it was proceeding.

22 Mr. Specter. Now, referring back to the press conference, did you define a tangential wound at that time?

Dr. Clark. Yes.

Mr. Specter. And what else did you state at the press conference at 2:30 on November 22?

Dr. Clark. I stated that the President had lost considerable blood, that one of the contributing causes of death was this massive blood loss, that I was unable to state how many wounds the President had sustained or from what angle they could have come.

I finally remember stating that the President's wound was obviously a massive one and was insurvivable.

Mr. Specter. What did Dr. Perry say at that time, during the course of that press conference, when the cameras were operating?

Dr. Clark. As I recall, Dr. Perry stated that there was a small wound in the President's throat, that he made the incision for the tracheotomy through this wound. He discovered that the trachea was deviated so he felt that the missile had entered the President's chest. He asked for chest tubes then to be placed in the pleural cavities. He was asked if this wound in the throat was an entrance wound or an exit wound. He said it was small and clean so it could have been an entrance wound.

Mr. Specter. Did he say anything else that you can recollect now in response to the question of whether it was a wound of entrance or exit?

Dr. Clark. No, sir; I cannot recall.

Mr. Specter. Were you a part of a second press conference, Dr. Clark?

Dr. Clark. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. And when did that second press conference occur?

Dr. Clark. On Saturday, the 23d.

Mr. Specter. At about what time?

Dr. Clark. Sometime in the morning, as I recall.

Mr. Specter. Going back to the first press conference for just a minute, which television networks were involved on that?

Dr. Clark. Without sounding facetious, everyone, including some I had never heard of.

Mr. Specter. Can you recollect any besides the three major networks—ABC, CBS, and NBC?

Dr. Clark. This is all I remember. I remember seeing in the room two reporters from Dallas newspapers whom I know and the radio and television stations were also present.

Mr. Specter. Now, going back to the second conference which I had started asking you about, had you had an opportunity to tell me what time of day that was?

Dr. Clark. It was in the morning, as I recall.

Mr. Specter. And what television stations or networks were involved in that conference?

Dr. Clark. Again, all three major networks, and I believe through our local affiliates. It does not seem as though this one was as jammed and as full as the first one.

Mr. Specter. And who arranged that press conference?

Dr. Clark. That press conference was arranged by Mr. Steve Landregan, assistant administrator and public relations officer for the hospital. This is his office.

Mr. Specter. And who spoke at that press conference while the television cameras were grinding?

Dr. Clark. Dr. Perry and myself.

Mr. Specter. And what did you say at that time?

Dr. Clark. Essentially the same thing as I had on the first press conference, again defining tangential, and again describing the President's wound as being massive and unsurvivable.

Mr. Specter. And what did Dr. Perry, at that time, say?

Dr. Clark. Dr. Perry said very little. He described the President's condition as he first saw him, when he was first called, and he described the manner in which he was called to the emergency room.

23 Mr. Specter. Did he say anything about whether the neck wound was a point of entry or exit?

Dr. Clark. I do not remember—I specifically discussed this—may I add something to what I said in the first press conference?

Mr. Specter. Yes; please do, if you find something that comes to mind, please feel free to add that.

Dr. Clark. All right. Let me check what I remember Dr. Perry said at the first press conference. He was asked if the neck wound could be a wound of entrance or appeared to be a wound of exit, and Dr. Perry said something like "possibly or conceivably," or something of this sort.

Mr. Specter. And, did he elaborate as to how that projectory would have been possible in that press conference?

Dr. Clark. He did not elaborate on this. One of the reporters with gestures indicated the direction that such a bullet would have to take, and Dr. Perry quite obviously had to agree that this is the way it had to go to get from there to the top of his head.

Mr. Specter. But that was a possible trajectory under the circumstances?

Dr. Clark. Yes.

Mr. Specter. How would that have been postulated in terms of striking specific parts of the body?

Dr. Clark. Well, on a speculation, this would mean that the missile would have had to have been fired from below—upward or that the President was hanging upside down.

Me. Specter. Did Dr. Perry discuss anything with you prior to that second conference about a telephone call from Washington, D.C.?

Dr. Clark. Yes; he did.

Mr. Specter. Would you relate briefly what Dr. Perry told you about that subject?

Dr. Clark. Yes; Dr. Perry stated that he had talked to the Bethesda Naval Hospital on two occasions that morning and that he knew what the autopsy findings had shown and that he did not wish to be questioned by the press, as he had been asked by Bethesda to confine his remarks to that which he knew from having examined the President, and suggested that the major part of this press conference be conducted by me.

Mr. Specter. Was anyone else present when he expressed those thoughts to you?

Dr. Clark. I believe that Mr. Price and Dr. Shires were present. I could be wrong on that.

Mr. Specter. Now, were you a part of a third press conference?

Dr. Clark. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. And when did that occur?

Dr. Clark. During the following week—I have forgotten exactly the day.

Mr. Specter. And what networks were involved at that time?

Dr. Clark. It was CBS.

Mr. Specter. Was that a television conference?

Dr. Clark. Yes; this was filmed.

Mr. Specter. And who arranged that conference?

Dr. Clark. Again, Mr. Landregan.

Mr. Specter. And who spoke at that conference?

Dr. Clark. Dr. Shaw, Dr. Shires, Dr. Baxter, Dr. McClelland, Dr. Jenkins, Dr. Gieseke, and myself.

Mr. Specter. Was Dr. Perry there at that time?

Dr. Clark. Yes; Dr. Perry was there.

Mr. Specter. Would you outline briefly what you said at that time, if it differed in any way from what you said before?

Dr. Clark. No, sir; it did not.

Mr. Specter. What did Dr. Perry say at that time?

Dr. Clark. Essentially the same thing that he had said before, describing the wound in the throat, describing the condition of the President, how he was called and so forth.

Mr. Specter. Did he comment at that time as to whether it was an entrance wound or an exit wound or what?

24 Dr. Clark. I don't remember.

Mr. Specter. And what did Dr. Shaw say at that time?

Dr. Clark. Dr. Shaw described Governor Connally's chest wound. He described what was done for him, the operation in some detail. He described the fact that Governor Connally was conscious up until the time he was anesthetized in the operating room.

Mr. Specter. And what did Dr. Shires say at that time?

Dr. Clark. Dr. Shires described the wounds suffered by Oswald and what was done in an attempt to save him.

Mr. Specter. And how about Dr. Gieseke, what did he say?

Dr. Clark. Dr. Gieseke corroborated Dr. Shaw's statements regarding Governor Connally's condition and his remaining conscious until he was anesthetized by Dr. Gieseke.

Mr. Specter. What did Dr. Baxter say at that conference?

Dr. Clark. Dr. Baxter described President Kennedy's condition as he saw it, stated that he had assisted in the placing in the chest tubes on President Kennedy, and that he had been present at Oswald's operation.

Mr. Specter. Did Dr. Baxter describe the neck wound that President Kennedy suffered with specific respect as to whether it was point of entry or exit?

Dr. Clark. I don't remember—I don't believe he did.

Mr. Specter. Now, have we covered all the doctors who spoke at that press conference?

Dr. Clark. Except Dr. Jenkins.

Mr. Specter. And what did Dr. Jenkins say at that time?

Dr. Clark. Dr. Jenkins described being called to attend President Kennedy, how he got there with his anesthesia machine, that he found an endotracheal tube had already been inserted. He hooked up and he described the activities in the emergency room, operating room No. 1, and he described the stopping of the President's heart and the decision to pronounce him dead. He went ahead to describe the operation on Mr. Oswald and the extent of blood loss, etc., which he had sustained.

Mr. Specter. Now, were you involved in still a subsequent press conference?

Dr. Clark. Yes, sir; I was.

Mr. Specter. And with whom was that press conference?

Dr. Clark. This was with NBC and was approximately 2 weeks after the assassination.

Mr. Specter. And who arranged that press conference?

Dr. Clark. Mr. Landregan.

Mr. Specter. And was that filmed?

Dr. Clark. Yes, that was also filmed.

Mr. Specter. And who spoke at that time?

Dr. Clark. I spoke alone as a representative of the department and so stated in the conference.

Mr. Specter. And what did you say at that time?

Dr. Clark. Essentially the same thing as had been stated before.

Mr. Specter. Now, were you a part of still another press conference?

Dr. Clark. Yes.

Mr. Specter. When was that?

Dr. Clark. The week after the assassination.

Mr. Specter. And with whom was that press conference?

Dr. Clark. With BBC.

Mr. Specter. Who arranged that?

Dr. Clark. Mr. Landregan, again.

Mr. Specter. And did anyone else participate in that press conference with you?

Dr. Clark. No.

Mr. Specter. And was that televised, filmed, or simply recorded?

Dr. Clark. It was simply recorded.

Mr. Specter. And what did you say at that time?

Dr. Clark. Exactly the same thing as I have said at the previous conferences, describing the President's condition, his wound, and what transpired after I arrived.

25 Mr. Specter. At any of the press conferences were you asked about a hole on the left side of the President's head?

Dr. Clark. Yes.

Mr. Specter. At which conference or conferences?

Dr. Clark. I was asked about this at the CBS conference and I stated that I personally saw no such wound.

Mr. Specter. And who asked you about it at that time, if you recall?

Dr. Clark. The man who was conducting the conference. This was brought up by one of the physicians, I think Dr. McClelland, that there was some discussion of such a wound.

Mr. Specter. Did Dr. McClelland say that he had seen such a wound?

Dr. Clark. No.

Mr. Specter. What was the origin, if you know, as to the inquiry on the wound, that is, who suggested that there might have been a wound on the left side?

Dr. Clark. I don't recall—I don't recall.

Mr. Specter. Had there been some comment that the priests made a comment that there was a wound on the left side of the head?

Dr. Clark. I heard this subsequently from one of the reporters who attended the press conference with NBC.

Mr. Specter. Were priests actually in trauma room 1?

Dr. Clark. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. Where were they in relation to the President at that time?

Dr. Clark. They were on the right side of the President's body.

Mr. Specter. Now, you described the massive wound at the top of the President's head, with the brain protruding; did you observe any other hole or wound on the President's head?

Dr. Clark. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. Specter. Did you observe, to make my question very specific, a bullet hole or what appeared to be a bullet hole in the posterior scalp, approximately 2.5 cm. laterally to the right, slightly above the external occipital protuberant, measuring 15 by 6 mm.

Dr. Clark. No, sir; I did not. This could have easily been hidden in the blood and hair.

Mr. Specter. Did you observe any bullet wounds or any other wound on the back side of the President?

Dr. Clark. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. Specter. Was the President ever turned over while he was in the emergency room?

Dr. Clark. Not in my presence; no, sir.

Mr. Specter. And did you leave before, with, or after all the other doctors who were in attendance?

Dr. Clark. I left after all the other doctors who were in attendance, because I stayed with Dr. Burkley until we had the death certificate signed and the arrangements had been made to transport the President's body out of Parkland Hospital.

Mr. Specter. You say Dr. Burkley or Buckley?

Dr. Clark. Dr. Burkley.

Mr. Specter. That's the President's private physician?

Dr. Clark. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Dr. Clark, would your observations be consistent with some other alleged facts in this matter, such as the presence of a lateral wound measuring 15 by 6 mm. on the posterior scalp approximately 2.5 cm. laterally to the right and slightly above the external occipital proturberant—that is to say, could such a hole have been present without your observing it?

Dr. Clark. Yes, in the presence of this much destruction of skull and scalp above such a wound and lateral to it and the brief period of time available for examination—yes, such a wound could be present.

Mr. Specter. The physicians, surgeons who examined the President at the autopsy specifically, Commander James J. Humes, H-u-m-e-s (spelling); Commander J. Thornton Boswell, B-o-s-w-e-l-l (spelling), and Lt. Col. Pierre A. Finck, F-i-n-c-k (spelling), expressed the joint opinion that the wound which26 I have just described as being 15 by 6 mm. and 2.5 cm. to the right and slightly above the external occipital protuberant was a point of entrance of a bullet in the President's head at a time when the President's head was moved slightly forward with his chin dropping into his chest, when he was riding in an open car at a slightly downhill position. With those facts being supplied to them in a hypothetical fashion, they concluded that the bullet would have taken a more or less straight course, exiting from the center of the President's skull at a point indicated by an opening from three portions of the skull reconstructed, which had been brought to them—would those findings and those conclusions be consistent with your observations if you assumed the additional facts which I have brought to your attention, in addition to those which you have personally observed?

Dr. Clark. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. Dr. Clark, in the line of your specialty, could you comment as to the status of the President with respect to competency, had he been able to survive the head injuries which you have described and the total wound which he had?

Dr. Clark. This, of course, is a question of tremendous importance. Just let me state that the loss of cerebrellar tissue would probably have been of minimal consequence in the performance of his duties. The loss of the right occipital and probably part of the right parietal lobes would have been of specific importance. This would have led to a visual field deficit, which would have interfered in a major way with his ability to read, not the interpretation of reading matter per se, but the acquisition of information from the printed page. He would have had specific difficulty with finding the next line in a book or paper. This would have proven to be a specific handicap in getting information on which, as the President of the United States, he would have to act.

How much damage he would have had to his motor system, that is, the ability to control or coordinate his left extremities, I would not know. This conceivably could have been a problem in enabling him to move about, to appear in public, et cetera. Finally, and probably most important, since the brain, as far as at its higher levels, largely as a unit, the loss of this much brain tissue likely would have impaired his ability in abstract reasoning, imagination; whereas, the part of the President's brain struck is not that part specifically concerned with these matters. The effect of loss of considerable brain tissue does affect the total performance of the organ in these matters. There would be grave doubts in my mind as to our ability as physicians to give a clear answer regarding his ability to function as President of the United States.

Our ability to judge this is sometimes sorely tried when dealing with people with considerably less intellectual and moral demands made upon them.

Mr. Specter. Doctor, did you prepare certain written reports based on your participation in the treatment of President Kennedy?

Dr. Clark. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. Specter. And I now show you a document which has been supplied to the President's Commission, which we have marked as Commission Exhibit No. 392, and I now show you the second and third sheets, which purport to be the summary made by you and ask if that was prepared by you?

Dr. Clark. Yes, sir; it was.

Mr. Specter. And, are the facts set forth in those two sheets true and correct?

Dr. Clark. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. And I now show you a 2¾-page summary which purports to bear your signature, being dated November 22, 1963, and I ask you if that, in fact, is your signature?

Dr. Clark. Yes; it is.

Mr. Specter. And, was, in fact, this report made in your own hand concerning the treatment which you rendered to the President?

Dr. Clark. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. And are the facts set forth therein true and correct?

Dr. Clark. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. Have you made any other written report or other writings of any sort concerning this matter?

27 Dr. Clark. No; I have not.

Mr. Specter. Have you been interviewed or discussed this matter with any Federal representative prior to today?

Dr. Clark. Yes, sir; I have.

Mr. Specter. And whom did you talk to?

Dr. Clark. I talked to an FBI agent a few days after the assassination, in Mr. Jack Price's office.

Mr. Specter. And who is Mr. Price, for the record at this point?

Dr. Clark. He is the administrator of Parkland Memorial Hospital. This agent asked me if I had recovered any missiles or fragments of missiles from the President's body. I said I did not, and he asked me if I knew of anyone in Parkland Hospital who had recovered such evidence and I assured him I did not.

Mr. Specter. Did he ask you anything further?

Dr. Clark. No, sir.

Mr. Specter. Did you tell him anything further?

Dr. Clark. No, sir. I offered to answer any questions he might have asked and he said that was all he wished to know.

Mr. Specter. And did you talk to any other representative of the Federal Government at any time before today?

Dr. Clark. Yes; I talked to a member of the Secret Service approximately a month after the assassination. I talked to him on two occasions, once by phone, and he asked me if I had a copy of the written report submitted by Dr. Ronald Jones, and I told him I did not.

I subsequently talked to him in person. He showed me the summary that I prepared and sent to Dr. Burkley, the same document I just identified here, and my own handwritten report of the events of the afternoon of the 22d of November. He asked me if I prepared these and I told him I had. He asked me if I had any other written records. I told him I did not. He said, "Do you have any additional information than you have written?" I said I did not. He thanked me very much for coming.

Mr. Specter. Have you now summarized all of the conversations you have had with any representative of the Federal Government prior to today?

Dr. Clark. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. And have you had any conversations with any representative of the State government prior to today?

Dr. Clark. No, sir.

Mr. Specter. Before you were sworn in to have your deposition taken, did you and I have a discussion about this matter?

Dr. Clark. Yes, sir; a pleasant discussion of what the function of this Commission is.

Mr. Specter. And, also, all of what I would be asking once the record was open and we started taking your deposition?

Dr. Clark. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. And have we covered on the record with the court reporter transcribing all the subjects which you and I discussed informally and prior to the start of the more formal session here?

Dr. Clark. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. Do you have anything which you would care to add, which you think might possibly be helpful to the Commission in any way, Dr. Clark?

Dr. Clark. No, sir; I'm afraid I don't.

Mr. Specter. Thank you very much for coming. We surely appreciate it, Dr. Clark. Thank you, Dr. Clark.

Dr. Clark. Thank you.

28

TESTIMONY OF DR. KEMP CLARK RESUMED

The testimony of Dr. Kemp Clark was taken at 12:05 p.m., on March 25, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. Specter. May the record show that Dr. Kemp Clark has returned to have a few additional questions asked of him following the deposition which was taken on March 21.

Dr. Clark, the purpose of this additional deposition is the same as the first one, except that I am going to ask you a few additional questions based upon a translation of an article which appeared in "L' Express", which has been provided to me since the deposition of last Saturday.

Would you please stand up again and raise your right hand?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you will give before the President's Commission in this deposition proceeding will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Dr. Clark. I do.

Mr. Specter. Dr. Clark, I have made available to you, have I not, what purports to be a translation from French of the "L' Express" issue of February 20, 1964?

Dr. Clark. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. And let me read for the record and for you this excerpt.

"On his part according to the New York Times of November 27, 'Dr. Kemp Clark, who signed the Kennedy death certificate, declared that a bullet hit him right where the knot of his necktie was.' He added," apparently referring to you, "'this bullet penetrated into his chest and did not come out'. The surgeon went on to say that the second wound of the President was 'tangential' and that it had been caused by a bullet which hit 'the right side of his head'".

Dr. Clark, my first question is—what, if anything, did you say to a New York Times representative or anyone, for that matter, with respect to whether a bullet hit the President where the knot of his necktie was.

Dr. Clark. I remember using the phrase to describe the location of a wound in the President's throat as being at the point of his knot of his necktie. I do not recall ever specifically stating that this was an entrance wound, as has been said before. I was not present when the President arrived and did not see this wound. If any statement regarding its entrance or exit was made by me, it was indicating that there was a small wound described there by the physicians who first saw the President.

A specific quotation regarding entrance or exit, I feel, is a partial quotation or incompletely quoted from me. The part pertaining to the bullet entering the President's chest rests on the reasons for the placing of the chest tubes which were being inserted when I arrived. It was the assumption, based on the previously described deviation of the trachea and the presence of blood in the strap muscles of the neck that a wound or missile wound might have entered the President's chest.

Mr. Specter. Well, what was there, Dr. Clark, in the deviation of the trachea and the presence of blood in the strap muscles of the neck which so indicated?

Dr. Clark. Assuming that a missile had entered the pleural space, if there had been bleeding into the pleural space, the trachea would have been deviated or had there been leakage of air into the pleural space, the trachea would have been deviated, as it is the main conduit of air to the two lungs. Collapse of a lung would have produced, or will produce deviation of the trachea. There being a wound in the throat, there being blood in the strap muscles and there being deviation of the trachea in the presence of a grievously wounded patient without opportunity for X-ray or other diagnostic measures, Dr. Perry assumed that the findings in the neck were due to penetration of the missile into the chest. For this reason, he requested chest tubes to be placed.

Mr. Specter. Well, is the deviation of the trachea and the presence of bleeding on the strap muscles of the neck and the other factors which you have recited equally consistent with a wound of exit on the neck?

Dr. Clark. Yes, sir. Furthermore, let me say that the presence of the deviation of the trachea, with blood in the strap muscles, are by no means diagnostic of penetration of the chest, and the placing of the chest tubes was prophylactic had such an eventuality occurred.

Mr. Specter. Was there any external indication that there was a missile in the chest?

29 Dr. Clark. No, sir.

Mr. Specter. Was it the preliminary thought that the missile might have been in the chest by virtue of the fact that this wound was noted on the neck?

Dr. Clark. Yes; with the other factors I have enumerated.

Mr. Specter. And at that time, not knowing what the angle might have been or any of the surrounding circumstances, then you proceeded to take precautionary measures as if there might have been a missile in the chest at some point?

Dr. Clark. That is correct. Measures were taken, assuming the worst had happened.

Mr. Specter. As the quotation appears in the issue of "L' Express," "This bullet penetrated into his chest and did not come out," would that then be an accurate quotation of something that you said, Dr. Clark?

Dr. Clark. No, sir.

Mr. Specter. Dr. Clark, while you are here again, I would like to ask you a few additional questions.

Let the record show that since I have taken your deposition, I have taken the depositions of many additional witnesses and none has been transcribed, so I am not in a position to refer to a record to see what I asked you before or to frankly recollect precisely what I asked you before, so, to some extent these questions may be overlapping.

Did you observe the President's back at that time when he was in the emergency room?

Dr. Clark. No, sir.

Mr. Specter. What was the reason for your not looking at his back?

Dr. Clark. First, the duration of time that the President was alive in the emergency room was a brief duration. All efforts were bent toward saving his life rather than inspection for precise location of wounds. After his death it was not our position to try to evaluate all of the conceivable organs or areas of the body, knowing that an autopsy would be performed and that this would be far more meaningful than a cursory external examination here.

Mr. Specter. Was there any bleeding wound in the President's back?

Dr. Clark. In the back of his head.

Mr. Specter. But how about on the back of his body, was there any bleeding wound noted?

Dr. Clark. Since we did not turn the President over, I cannot answer that specifically. We saw none, as I previously stated.

Mr. Specter. Did you undertake any action to ascertain whether there had been a violation to a major extent of the back part of his body?

Dr. Clark. No, sir.

Mr. Specter. That is, none was taken by you personally?

Dr. Clark. That's correct.

Mr. Specter. Dr. Carrico testified earlier today, being the first doctor to reach him, that he felt the President's back to determine whether there was any major violation of that area.

Would that be a customary action to take to ascertain whether there was any major wound, by the doctor who first examined the patient?

Dr. Clark. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. Assuming that the President had a bullet wound of entry on the upper right posterior thorax, just above the upper border of the scapula, 14 cms. from the right acromion process, 14 cm. below the tip of the right mastoid process, would there have been a bloody type wound?

Dr. Clark. I'm sorry—your question?

Mr. Specter. Would such a wound of entry by a missile traveling approximately 2,000 feet per second, approximately 6.5 mm. in diameter, cause a bloody type of a wound?

Dr. Clark. No, sir. Such a wound could have easily been overlooked in the presence of the much larger wound in the right occipital region of the President's skull, from which considerable blood loss had occurred which stained the back of his head, neck and upper shoulders.

Mr. Specter. Dr. Clark, I want to ask you a question as it is raised here in "L' Express".

30 "How did the practitioner who signed the death certificate of the President fail to take the trouble to turn him over?"

Of course, that refers to you and will you give me your answer to that question, as the news media has posed it?

Dr. Clark. Quite simply, as I previously stated, the duration of time the President was alive was occupied by attempts to save his life. When these failed, further examination of the patient's body was not done, as it was felt that little could be gained or learned that would be helpful in deciding the course of events leading up to his assassination, that is, examination by me, as I knew an autopsy would be performed which would be far more meaningful and revealing than any cursory external examination conducted in the emergency room by me.

Mr. Specter. Now, was the action taken by you in signing the death certificate based upon the examination which you made in accordance with what you believed to be good medical practice?

Dr. Clark. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. So that the characterization here of "L' Express" that the failure to turn the President over would not constitute gross negligence in your professional judgment, as they have characterized it here.

Dr. Clark. No, sir. One other point, if I may here?

Mr. Specter. Yes.

Dr. Clark. In order to move the President's body to Bethesda where the autopsy was to be performed, a death certificate had to be filled out in conformance with Texas State law to allow the body to be transported. This is the second part of the signing of the death certificate.

Mr. Specter. Do you have anything to add, Dr. Clark, which you think might be helpful at all in the inquiry being made by the President's Commission?

Dr. Clark. No; I don't think so.

Mr. Specter. And did you and I chat for just a moment or two about the questions I would ask you on this supplemental deposition before it went on the record?

Dr. Clark. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. And have you talked to any representative of the Federal Government between the time I took your deposition last Saturday and this Wednesday morning?

Dr. Clark. No, sir.

Mr. Specter. Thank you very much, Dr. Clark.

Dr. Clark. All right.

TESTIMONY OF DR. ROBERT NELSON McCLELLAND

The testimony of Dr. Robert Nelson McClelland was taken on March 21, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. Specter. Will you raise your right hand?

Dr. McClelland. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give in these proceedings will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Dr. McClelland. I do.

Mr. Specter. Dr. McClelland, the purpose of this proceeding is to take your deposition in connection with an investigation which is being conducted by the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy, and the specific purpose of our requesting you to answer questions relates to the topic of the medical care which President Kennedy received at Parkland Memorial Hospital.

Dr. McClelland, will you tell us your full name for the record, please?

Dr. McClelland. Robert Nelson McClelland.

31 Mr. Specter. Have you received a letter from the Commission which enclosed a copy of the Executive order creating the Commission, and a copy of the Congressional Resolution pertaining to the Commission, and a copy of the procedures for taking testimony under the Commission?

Dr. McClelland. Yes.

Mr. Specter. And is it satisfactory with you to answer these questions for us today, even though you haven't had the 3 days between the time of the receipt of the letter and today?

Dr. McClelland. Yes.

Mr. Specter. What is your profession, Doctor?

Dr. McClelland. I am a doctor of medicine.

Mr. Specter. Would you outline briefly your educational background, starting with your graduation from college, please?

Dr. McClelland. Since graduation from college I attended medical school at the University of Texas, medical branch in Galveston, Tex., and received the M.D. degree from that school in 1954. I then went to Kansas City, Kans., where I did a rotating internship at the University of Kansas Medical Center from June 1954 to June 1955. Following that period I was a general medical officer in the Air Force for 2 years in Germany, and subsequent to my release from active duty, I became a general surgery resident at Parkland Memorial Hospital in Dallas in August of 1957. I remained at Parkland from that date to August 1959, at which time I entered private practice for ten months, and then reentered my general surgery training program at Parkland in June 1960. I completed my 4 years of general surgical training in June 1962. Following that time I became a full-time instructor of surgery on the staff of the University of Texas, Southwestern Medical School, and I am at the present time an associate professor of surgery at that school.

Mr. Specter. Dr. McClelland, in connection with your duties at Parkland Hospital, or before, have you had any experience with gunshot wounds?

Dr. McClelland. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Where in your background did you acquire that experience?

Dr. McClelland. Largely during residency training and subsequent to that in my capacity here on the staff.

Mr. Specter. And what has provided the opportunity for your experience here at Parkland in residency training and on the staff with respect to acquiring knowledge of gunshot wounds?

Dr. McClelland. Largely this has been related to the type of hospital which Parkland is; namely, City-County Hospital which receives all of the indigent patients of this county, many of whom are involved frequently in shooting altercations, so that we do see a large number of that type patient almost daily.

Mr. Specter. Could you approximate for me the total number of gunshot wounds which you have had an opportunity to observe?

Dr. McClelland. I would estimate that it would be in excess of 200.

Mr. Specter. What was your duty assignment back on November 22, 1963?

Dr. McClelland. At that time I was showing a film on surgical techniques to a group of students and residents on the second floor of Parkland Hospital in the surgical suite, where I was notified of the fact that President Kennedy was being brought to the Parkland emergency room after having been shot.

Mr. Specter. And what action, if any, did you take following that notification?

Dr. McClelland. Immediately upon hearing that, I accompanied the Resident, Dr. Crenshaw, who brought this news to me, to the emergency room, and down to the trauma room 1 where President Kennedy had been taken immediately upon arrival.

Mr. Specter. And approximately what time did you arrive in Emergency Room 1?

Dr. McClelland. This is a mere approximation, but I would approximate or estimate, rather, about 12:40.

Mr. Specter. And who was present, if anyone, at the time of your arrival?

Dr. McClelland. At the time I arrived, Dr. Perry—would you like the full names of all these?

Mr. Specter. That would be fine, I would appreciate that.

32 Dr. McClelland. Dr. Malcolm Perry, Dr. Charles Baxter, Dr. Charles Crenshaw, Dr. James Carrico, Dr. Paul Peters.

Mr. Specter. Were they all present at the time you arrived?

Dr. McClelland. They were not present when I arrived.

Mr. Specter. Will you start with the ones who were present?

Dr. McClelland. Starting with the ones who were present, I'm sorry, the ones who were present when I arrived were Drs. Carrico, Perry and Baxter. The others I mentioned arrived subsequently or about the same time that I did.

Mr. Specter. Then, what other doctors, if any, arrived after you did, in addition to those whom you have already mentioned?

Dr. McClelland. In addition, the ones that arrived afterwards, were Dr. Kenneth Salyer.

Mr. Specter. S-a-l-y-e-r?

Dr. McClelland. S-a-l-y-e-r, Dr. Fouad, F-o-u-a-d Bashour, Dr. Donald Seldin----

Mr. Specter. S-e-l-d-i-n?

Dr. McClelland. S-e-l-d-i-n—I believe that's all.

Mr. Specter. What did you observe as to President Kennedy's condition at that time?

Dr. McClelland. Well, on initially coming into the room and inspecting him from a distance of only 2 or 3 feet as I put on a pair of surgical gloves, it was obvious that he had sustained a probably mortal head injury, and that his face was extremely swollen and suffused with blood appeared cyanotic——

Mr. Specter. "Cyanotic"—may I interrupt—just what do you mean by that in lay terms?

Dr. McClelland. This mean bluish discoloration, bluish-black discoloration of the tissue. The eyes were somewhat protuberant, which is usually seen after massive head injuries denoting increased intracranial pressure, and it seemed that he perhaps was not making, at the time at least, spontaneous respiratory movements, but was receiving artificial respiration from a machine, an anesthesia machine.

Mr. Specter. Who was operating that machine?

Dr. McClelland. The machine—there was a changeover, just as I came in, one of the doctors in the room, I don't recall which one, had been operating what we call an intermittent positive pressure breathing machine.

Mr. Specter. Had that machine been utilized prior to your arrival?

Dr. McClelland. It was in use as I arrived, yes, and about the same time I arrived—this would be one other doctor who came in the room that I forgot about—Dr. Jenkins, M. T. Jenkins, professor of anesthesiology, came into the room with a larger anesthesia machine, which is a better type machine with which to maintain control of respiration, and this was then attached to the tube in the President's tracheotom; anyway, respiratory movements were being made for him with these two machines, which were in the process of being changed when I came in.

Then, as I took my post to help with the tracheotomy, I was standing at the end of the stretcher on which the President was lying, immediately at his head, for purposes of holding a tracheotom, or a retractory in the neck line.

Mr. Specter. What did you observe, if anything, as to the status of the neck wound when you first arrived?

Dr. McClelland. The neck wound, when I first arrived, was at this time converted into a tracheotomy incision. The skin incision had been made by Dr. Perry, and he told me—although I did not see that—that he had made the incision through a very small, perhaps less than one quarter inch in diameter wound in the neck.

Mr. Specter. Do you recall whether he described it any more precisely than that?

Dr. McClelland. He did not at that time.

Mr. Specter. Has he ever described it any more precisely for you?

Dr. McClelland. He has since that time.

Mr. Specter. And what description has he given of it since that time?

Dr. McClelland. As well as I can recall, the description that he gave was essentially as I have just described, that it was a very small injury, with clear33 cut, although somewhat irregular margins of less than a quarter inch in diameter, with minimal tissue damage surrounding it on the skin.

Mr. Specter. Now, was there anything left for you to observe of that bullet wound, or had the incision obliterated it?

Dr. McClelland. The incision had obliterated it, essentially, the skin portion, that is.

Mr. Specter. Before proceeding to describe what you did in connection with the tracheostomy, will you more fully describe your observation with respect to the head wound?

Dr. McClelland. As I took the position at the head of the table that I have already described, to help out with the tracheotomy, I was in such a position that I could very closely examine the head wound, and I noted that the right posterior portion of the skull had been extremely blasted. It had been shattered, apparently, by the force of the shot so that the parietal bone was protruded up through the scalp and seemed to be fractured almost along its right posterior half, as well as some of the occipital bone being fractured in its lateral half, and this sprung open the bones that I mentioned in such a way that you could actually look down into the skull cavity itself and see that probably a third or so, at least, of the brain tissue, posterior cerebral tissue and some of the cerebellar tissue had been blasted out. There was a large amount of bleeding which was occurring mainly from the large venous channels in the skull which had been blasted open.

Mr. Specter. Was he alive at the time you first saw him?

Dr. McClelland. I really couldn't say, because as I mentioned in the hectic activity—I really couldn't say what his blood pressure was or what his pulse was or anything of that sort. The only thing I could say that would perhaps give evidence—this is not vital activity—at most, is that maybe he made one or two spontaneous respiratory movements but it would be difficult to say, since the machine was being used on him, whether these were true spontaneous respirations or not.

Mr. Specter. Would you now describe the activity and part that you performed in the treatment which followed your arrival?

Dr. McClelland. Yes; as I say, all I did was simply assist Dr. Perry and Dr. Baxter in doing the tracheotomy. All three of us worked together in making an incision in the neck, tracting the neck muscles out of the way, and making a small opening into the trachea near the spot where the trachea had already been blasted or torn open by the fragment of the bullet, and inserting a large metal tracheotomy tube into this hole, and after this the breathing apparatus was attached to this instead of the previous tube which had been placed here.

Mr. Specter. In conducting that operation, did you observe any interior damage to the President?

Dr. McClelland. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Will you describe that for me, please?

Dr. McClelland. That damage consisted mainly of a large amount of contusion and hematoma formation in the tissue lateral to the right side of the trachea and the swelling and bleeding around this site was to such extent that the trachea was somewhat deviated to the left side, not a great deal, but to a degree at least that it required partial cutting of some of the neck muscles in order to get good enough exposure to put in the tracheotomy tube, but there was a good deal of soft tissue damage and damage to the trachea itself where apparently the missile had gone between the trachea on the right side and the strap muscles which were applied closely to it.

Mr. Specter. What other treatment was given to President Kennedy at the time you were performing the procedures you have just described?

Dr. McClelland. To the best of my knowledge, the other treatment had consisted of the placement of cutdown sites in his extremities, namely, the making of incisions over large veins in the arms and, I believe, in the leg; however, I'm not sure about that, since I was not paying too much attention to that part of the activity, and large plastic tubes were placed into these veins for the giving of blood and fluids, and as I recall, he received a certain amount of blood, but I don't know exactly how much, since I was not actually giving the blood.

34 In addition to that, of course, while we were working on the tracheotomy incision, the other physicians that I have mentioned were attaching the President rapidly to a cardiac monitor, that is to say, an electrocardiogram, for checking the presence of cardiac activity, and in addition, chest tubes were being placed in the right and left chest—both, as I recall.

Mr. Specter. Do you recall who was placing those tubes?

Dr. McClelland. One of the tubes, I believe, was placed by Dr. Peters. The other one, I'm not right certain, I don't really recall—I perhaps better not say.

Mr. Specter. Do you know about how long that took in placing those chest tubes?

Dr. McClelland. As well as I am aware, the tubes were both placed in. What this involves is simply putting a trocar, a large hollow tube, and that is put into the small incision, into the anterior chest wall and slipping the tube into the chest between a group of ribs for purposes of relieving any collection of air or fluid which is present in the lungs. The reason this was done was because it was felt that there was probably quite possibly a mediastinal injury with perhaps suffusion of blood and air into one or both pleural cavities.

Mr. Specter. What effect did this medical treatment have on President Kennedy?

Dr. McClelland. As near as we could tell, unfortunately, none. We felt that from the time we saw him, most of us agreed, all of us agreed rather, that this was a mortal wound, but that in spite of this feeling that all attempts possible should be made to revive him, as far as establishing the airway breathing for him, and replacing blood and what not, but unfortunately the loss of blood and the loss of cerebral and cerebellar tissues were so great that the efforts were of no avail.

Mr. Specter. Was he conscious at that time that you saw him?

Dr. McClelland. No.

Mr. Specter. And, at what time did he expire?

Dr. McClelland. He was pronounced dead at 1 p.m. on November 22.

Mr. Specter. What was the cause of death in your opinion?

Dr. McClelland. The cause of death, I would say, would be massive head injuries with loss of large amounts of cerebral and cerebellar tissues and massive blood loss.

Mr. Specter. Did you observe anything in the nature of a wound on his body other than that which you have already described for me?

Dr. McClelland. No.

Mr. Specter. In what position was President Kennedy maintained from the time you saw him until the pronouncement of death?

Dr. McClelland. On his back on the cart.

Mr. Specter. On his what?

Dr. McClelland. On his back on the stretcher.

Mr. Specter. Was he on the stretcher at all times?

Dr. McClelland. Yes.

Mr. Specter. In the trauma room No. 1 you described, is there any table onto which he could be placed from the stretcher?

Dr. McClelland. No; generally we do not move patients from the stretcher until they are ready to go into the operating room and then they are moved onto the operating table.

Mr. Specter. Well, in fact, was he left on the stretcher all during the course of these procedures until he was pronounced dead?

Dr. McClelland. That's right.

Mr. Specter. Then, at any time was he positioned in a way where you could have seen the back of his body?

Dr. McClelland. No.

Mr. Specter. Did you observe any gunshot wound on his back?

Dr. McClelland. No.

Mr. Specter. Have you had discussions with the other doctors who attended President Kennedy as to the possible nature of the wound which was inflicted on him?

Dr. McClelland. Yes.

Mr. Specter. And what facts did you have available either to you or to the35 other doctors whom you talked this over with, with respect to the nature of the wound, source of the wounds, and that sort of thing?

Dr. McClelland. Immediately we had essentially no facts. We knew nothing of the number of bullets that had supposedly been fired. We knew nothing of the site from which the bullet had been fired, essentially none of the circumstances in the first few minutes, say, 20 or 30 minutes after the President was brought in, so that our initial impressions were based upon extremely incomplete information.

Mr. Specter. What were your initial impressions?

Dr. McClelland. The initial impression that we had was that perhaps the wound in the neck, the anterior part of the neck, was an entrance wound and that it had perhaps taken a trajectory off the anterior vertebral body and again into the skull itself, exiting out the back, to produce the massive injury in the head. However, this required some straining of the imagination to imagine that this would happen, and it was much easier to explain the apparent trajectory by means of two bullets, which we later found out apparently had been fired, than by just one then, on which basis we were originally taking to explain it.

Mr. Specter. Through the use of the pronoun "we" in your last answer, to whom do you mean by "we"?

Dr. McClelland. Essentially all of the doctors that have previously been mentioned here.

Mr. Specter. Did you observe the condition of the back of the President's head?

Dr. McClelland. Well, partially; not, of course, as I say, we did not lift his head up since it was so greatly damaged. We attempted to avoid moving him any more than it was absolutely necessary, but I could see, of course, all the extent of the wound.

Mr. Specter. You saw a large opening which you have already described?

Dr. McClelland. I saw the large opening which I have described.

Mr. Specter. Did you observe any other wound on the back of the head?

Dr. McClelland. No.

Mr. Specter. Did you observe a small gunshot wound below the large opening on the back of the head?

Dr. McClelland. No.

Mr. Specter. Based on the experience that you have described for us with gunshot wounds and your general medical experience, would you characterize the description of the wound that Dr. Perry gave you as being a wound of entrance or a wound of exit, or was the description which you got from Dr. Perry and Dr. Baxter and Dr. Carrico who were there before, equally consistent with whether or not it was a wound of entrance or a wound of exit, or how would you characterize it in your words?

Dr. McClelland. I would say it would be equally consistent with either type wound, either an entrance or an exit type wound. It would be quite difficult to say—impossible.

Mr. Specter. Dr. McClelland, I show you now a statement or a report which has been furnished to the Commission by Parkland Hospital and has been identified in a previous Commission hearing as Commission Exhibit No. 392, and I direct your attention specifically to a page, "Third Report", which was made by you, and I would ask you first of all if this is your signature which appears at the bottom of Page 2, and next, whether in fact you did make this report and submit it to the authorities at Parkland Hospital?

Dr. McClelland. Yes.

Mr. Specter. And are all the facts set forth true and correct to the best of your knowledge, information and belief?

Dr. McClelland. To the best of my knowledge, yes.

Mr. Specter. Dr. McClelland, did you and I sit down together for just a few minutes before I started to take your deposition today?

Dr. McClelland. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. And I discussed this matter with you?

Dr. McClelland. Yes.

36 Mr. Specter. And, during the course of our conversations at that time, did we cover the same material in question form here and to which you have responded in answer form with the court reporter here today?

Dr. McClelland. Yes.

Mr. Specter. And has the information which you have given me on the record been the same as that which you gave me off of the record in advance?

Dr. McClelland. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Do you have any interest, Dr. McClelland in reading your testimony over or signing it at the end, or would you be willing to waive any such signature of the testimony?

Dr. McClelland. I would be willing to waive my signature.

Mr. Specter. Thank you so much for coming and giving us your deposition today.

Dr. McClelland. All right, thank you.

TESTIMONY OF DR. ROBERT M. McCLELLAND RESUMED

The testimony of Dr. Robert M. McClelland was taken at 3:25 p.m., on March 25, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. Specter. May the record show that Dr. Robert M. McClelland has returned to have a brief additional deposition concerning a translation of "L' Express" which has been called to my attention in the intervening time which has elapsed between March 21, when I took Dr. McClelland's deposition on the first occasion, and today.

Dr. McClelland, will you raise your right hand? Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you will give to the President's Commission in this deposition proceeding will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Dr. McClelland. I do.

Mr. Specter. Dr. McClelland, I show you a translation from the French, of the magazine, "L' Express" issue of February 20, 1964, and ask you if you would read this item, with particular emphasis on a reference to a quotation or statement made by you to a reporter from the St. Louis Post Dispatch.

Dr. McClelland. (Examined instrument referred to.)

Mr. Specter. Now, have you had an opportunity to read over that excerpt?

Dr. McClelland. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Did you talk to a reporter from the St. Louis Post Dispatch about this matter?

Dr. McClelland. Yes.

Mr. Specter. And what was his name?

Dr. McClelland. Richard Dudman.

Mr. Specter. And when did you have that conversation with Mr. Dudman?

Dr. McClelland. As well as I recall, it was the day after the assassination, as nearly as I can recall, but I'm not certain about that.

Mr. Specter. Will you tell me as closely as you remember what he said to you and you said to him, please?

Dr. McClelland. The main point he seemed to be making was to attempt to define something about the wound, the nature of the wound, and as near as I can recall, I indicated to him that the wound was a small undamaged—appearing punctate area in the skin of the neck, the anterior part of the neck, which had the appearance of the usual entrance wound of a bullet, but that this certainly could not be—you couldn't make a statement to that effect with any complete degree of certainty, though we were, as I told him, experienced in seeing wounds of this nature, and usually felt that we could tell the difference between an entrance and an exit wound, and this was, I think, in essence what I told him about the nature of the wound.

37 Mr. Specter. Now, had you actually observed the wound prior to the time the tracheotomy was performed on that neck wound?

Dr. McClelland. No; my knowledge of the entrance wound, as I stated, in my former deposition, was merely from what Dr. Perry told me when I entered the room and began putting on a pair of surgical gloves to assist with the tracheotomy.

Dr. Perry looked up briefly and said that they had made an incision and were in the process of making an incision in the neck, which extended through the middle of the wound in question in the front of the neck.

Mr. Specter. Now, you have just characterized it in that last answer as an entrance wound.

Dr. McClelland. Well, perhaps I shouldn't say the wound anyway, not the entrance wound—that might be a slip of the tongue.

Mr. Specter. Do you have a firm opinion at this time as to whether it is an entrance wound or exit wound or whatever?

Dr. McClelland. Of course, my opinion now would be colored by everything that I've heard about it and seen since, but I'll say this, if I were simply looking at the wound again and had seen the wound in its unchanged state, and which I did not, and, of course, as I say, it had already been opened up by the tracheotomy incision when I saw the wound—but if I saw the wound in its state in which Dr. Perry described it to me, I would probably initially think this were an entrance wound, knowing nothing about the circumstances as I did at the time, but I really couldn't say—that's the whole point. This would merely be a calculated guess, and that's all, not knowing anything more than just seeing the wound itself.

Mr. Specter. But did you, in fact, see the wound prior to the time the incision was made?

Dr. McClelland. No.

Mr. Specter. So that any preliminary thought you had even, would be based upon what you had been told by Dr. Perry?

Dr. McClelland. That's right.

Mr. Specter. Now, did you tell Mr. Dudman of the St. Louis Post Dispatch that you did not in fact see the wound in the neck, but your only information of it came from what Dr. Perry had told you?

Dr. McClelland. I don't recall whether I told him that or not. I really don't remember whether I said I had seen the wound myself or whether I was merely referring to our sort of collective opinion of it, or whether I told him I had not seen the wound and was merely going by Dr. Perry's report of it to me. I don't recall now, this far away in time exactly what I said to him.

Mr. Specter. Dr. McClelland, I want to ask you a few additional questions, and some of these questions may duplicate questions which I asked you last Saturday, and the reason for that is, we have not yet had a chance to transcribe the deposition of last Saturday, so I do not have before me the questions I asked you at that time and the answers you gave, and since last Saturday I have taken the depositions of many, many doctors on the same topics, so it is not possible for me to be absolutely certain of the specific questions which I asked you at that time, but permit me to ask you one or several more questions on the subject.

First, how many bullets do you think were involved in inflicting the wounds on President Kennedy which you observed?

Dr. McClelland. At the present time, you mean, or at the immediate moment?

Mr. Specter. Well, take the immediate moment and then the present time.

Dr. McClelland. At the moment, of course, it was our impression before we had any other information from any other source at all, when we were just confronted with the acute emergency, the brief thoughts that ran through our minds were that this was one bullet, that perhaps entered through the front of the neck and then in some peculiar fashion which we really had, as I mentioned the other day, to strain to explain to ourselves, had coursed up the front of the vertebra and into the base of the skull and out the rear of the skull.

This would have been a very circuitous route for the bullet to have made, so that when we did find later on what the circumstances were surrounding the38 assassination, this was much more readily explainable to ourselves that the two wounds were made by two separate bullets.

Mr. Specter. And what is your view or opinion today as to how many bullets inflicted the injuries of President Kennedy?

Dr. McClelland. Two.

Mr. Specter. Now, what would be the reason for your changing your opinion in that respect?

Dr. McClelland. Oh, just simply the later reports that we heard from all sources, of all the circumstances surrounding the assassination. Certainly no further first-hand information came to me and made me change my mind in that regard.

Mr. Specter. Dr. McClelland, let me ask you to assume a few additional facts, and based on a hypothetical situation which I will put to you and I'll ask you for an opinion.

Assume, if you will, that President Kennedy was shot on the upper right posterior thorax just above the upper border of the scapula at a point 14 cm. from the tip of the right acromion process and 14 cm. below a tip of the right mastoid process, assume further that that wound of entry was caused by a 6.5-mm. missile shot out of a rifle having a muzzle velocity of approximately 2,000 feet per second, being located 160 to 250 feet away from President Kennedy, that the bullet entered on the point that I described on the President's back, passed between two strap muscles on the posterior aspect of the President's body and moved through the fascial channel without violating the pleura cavity, and exited in the midline lower third anterior portion of the President's neck, would the hole which Dr. Perry described to you on the front side of the President's neck be consistent with the hole which such a bullet might make in such a trajectory through the President's body?

Dr. McClelland. Yes; I think so.

Mr. Specter. And what would your reasoning be for thinking that that would be a possible hole of exit on those factors as I have outlined them to you?

Dr. McClelland. Well, I think my reasoning would be basically that the missile was traveling mainly through soft tissue, rather than exploding from a bony chamber and that by the time it reached the neck that it had already lost, because of the distance from which it was fired, even though the muzzle velocity was as you stated—would have already lost a good deal of its initial velocity and kinetic strength and therefore would have perhaps made, particularly, if it were a fragment of the bullet as bullets do sometimes fragment, could have made a small hole like this in exiting. It certainly could have done that.

Mr. Specter. What would have happened then to the other portion of the bullet if it had fragmented?

Dr. McClelland. It might have been left along, or portions of it along the missile track—sometimes will be left scattered up and down this. Other fragments will maybe scatter in the wound and sometimes there will be multiple fragments and sometimes maybe only a small fragment out of the main bullet, sometimes a bullet will split in half—this is extremely difficult for me to say just what would happen in a case like that.

Mr. Specter. Well, assuming this situation—that the bullet did not fragment, because the autopsy report shows no fragmentation, that is, it cannot show the absence of fragmentation, but we do know that there were no bullets left in the body at any point, so that no fragment is left in.

Dr. McClelland. I think even then you could make the statement that this wound could have resulted from this type bullet fired through this particular mass of soft tissue, losing that much velocity before it exited from the body. Where you would expect to see this really great hole that is left behind would be, for instance, from a very high velocity missile fired at close range with a heavy caliber bullet, such as a .45 pistol fired at close range, which would make a small entrance hole, relatively, and particularly if it entered some portion of the anatomy such as the head, where there was a sudden change in density from the brain to the skull cavity, as it entered. As it left the body, it would still have a great deal of force behind it and would blow up a large segment of tissue as it exited. But I don't think the bullet of this nature fired from that distance and going through this large area of homogenous soft tissue would necessarily39 make the usual kind of exit wound like I just described, with a close range high velocity heavy caliber bullet.

This is why it would be difficult to say with certainty as has been implied in some newspaper articles that quoted me, that you could tell for sure that this was an entrance or an exit wound. I think this was blown up a good deal.

Mr. Specter. Dr. McClelland, why wasn't the President's body turned over?

Dr. McClelland. The President's body was not turned over because the initial things that were done as in all such cases of extreme emergency are to first establish an airway and second, to stop hemorrhage and replace blood, so that these were the initial things that were carried out immediately without taking time to do a very thorough physical examination, which of course would have required that these other emergency measures not be done immediately.

Mr. Specter. Did you make any examination of the President's back at all?

Dr. McClelland. No.

Mr. Specter. Was any examination of the President's back made to your knowledge?

Dr. McClelland. Not here—no.

Mr. Specter. Do you have anything to add which you think might be helpful in any way to the Commission?

Dr. McClelland. No; I think not except again to emphasize perhaps that some of our statements to the press about the nature of the wound may have been misleading, possibly—probably because of our fault in telling it in such a way that they misinterpreted our certainty of being able to tell entrance from exit wounds, which as we say, we generally can make an educated guess about these things but cannot be certain about them. I think they attributed too much certainty to us about that.

Mr. Specter. Now, have you talked to anyone from the Federal Government about this matter since I took your deposition last Saturday?

Dr. McClelland. No.

Mr. Specter. And did you and I chat for a moment or two with my showing you this translation of "L' Express" prior to the time we went on the record here?

Dr. McClelland. Yes.

Mr. Specter. And is the information which you gave to me in response to my questions the same that we put on the record here?

Dr. McClelland. To the best of my knowledge—yes.

Mr. Specter. Thank you very much, Dr. McClelland.

Dr. McClelland. All right. Thank you.

TESTIMONY OF DR. CHARLES RUFUS BAXTER

The testimony of Dr. Charles Rufus Baxter was taken at 11:15 a.m., on March 24, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. Specter. May the record show that Dr. Charles Baxter is present in response to a letter requesting him to appear and give his deposition. For the record I shall state that the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy is investigating all facets of the shooting, including the medical treatment performed on President Kennedy.

Dr. Baxter has been asked to give a deposition on his participation in connection with the care and medical treatment of President Kennedy, and with that statement of purpose, would you please stand up, Dr. Baxter, and raise your right hand.

Do you solemnly swear the testimony you give before the President's Commission in the course of this deposition proceeding will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

40 Dr. Baxter. I do.

Mr. Specter. Would you state your full name, please?

Dr. Baxter. Charles Rufus Baxter.

Mr. Specter. What is your profession, sir?

Dr. Baxter. I am a medical doctor of surgery, general surgeon.

Mr. Specter. Will you outline briefly your educational background?

Dr. Baxter. University of Texas—1948 through 1950. Southwestern Medical School, 1950 through 1954, 1955 straight medicine internship, 1956 medicine residency—internal medicine residency. 1956 through 1958, surgical research at Brooke Army Medical Center, 1958 through 1964—surgical residency, and 1964 through the present—this is 1964, I got out of the Army—in 1958, 1958 through 1962—surgery residency, and 1962 until now, assistant professor of surgery.

Mr. Specter. And are you board certified, Doctor?

Dr. Baxter. Yes.

Mr. Specter. And what boards have you passed?

Dr. Baxter. The American Board of Surgeons.

Mr. Specter. And what year were you so certified?

Dr. Baxter. 1963.

Mr. Specter. And what is your specific title at the medical school?

Dr. Baxter. Assistant professor of surgery.

Mr. Specter. Did you have occasion to aid in the treatment of President Kennedy at Parkland Hospital?

Dr. Baxter. Yes.

Mr. Specter. And will you outline briefly the circumstances surrounding your being called to render such assistance?

Dr. Baxter. I was conducting the student health service in the hours of 12 to 1 and was contacted there by the supervisor of the emergency room, who told me that the President was on the way to the emergency room, having been shot.

I went on a dead run to the emergency room as fast as I could and it took me about 3 or 4 minutes to get there.

Mr. Specter. Approximately what time did you arrive at the emergency room?

Dr. Baxter. I think it was 12:40—thereabouts.

Mr. Specter. And who was present at that time?

Dr. Baxter. Dr. Carrico and Dr. Jones and Dr. Jenkins—several nurses.

Mr. Specter. Can you identify the nurses?

Dr. Baxter. Yes; Mrs. Nelson—and who else? There were two or three others whose names—Miss Henchliffe was there.

Mr. Specter. Miss Bowron?

Dr. Baxter. Who?

Mr. Specter. Was Miss Bowron there?

Dr. Baxter. Yes; I believe so.

Mr. Specter. Were any other nurses there?

Dr. Baxter. One or two more, but I'm not sure of their names.

Mr. Specter. Can you identify any other doctors who were there at that time?

Dr. Baxter. Oh, let's see—I'm not sure whether the others came before or after I did. There was Crenshaw, Peters, and Kemp Clark, Dr. Bashour finally came. I believe Jackie Hunt—yes—she was, I believe she was the anesthesiologist who came.

Mr. Specter. Was Dr. Don Curtis there?

Dr. Baxter. I'm not sure—I just don't remember.

Mr. Specter. When you arrived, what did you observe as to the condition of the President?

Dr. Baxter. He was very obviously in extremis. There was a large gaping wound in the skull which was covered at that time with blood, and its extent was not immediately determined. His eyes were bulging, the pupils were fixed and dilated and deviated outward, both pupils were deviated laterally. At that time his breathing was being assisted so that whether he was breathing on his own or not, I couldn't determine.

Mr. Specter. In what way was his breathing being assisted?

Dr. Baxter. With an anesthesia machine.

41 Mr. Specter. Would you continue to describe what you observed as to his condition?

Dr. Baxter. There were no pulses that I could feel present. The anesthesiologist told me that he did still have a heartbeat.

Mr. Specter. Who is that who said that to you?

Dr. Baxter. Well, I believe this was Carrico who said that his heart was still beating. There was present at the time two intravenous catheters in place with fluids running. We were informed at that time—well, having looked over the rest of the body, the only other wound was in his neck, that we saw.

Dr. Carrico said that he had observed a tracheal laceration. At that moment Dr. Jones, I believe, was placing in a left anterior chest tube because of this information. We proceeded at that time with a tracheotomy.

Mr. Specter. Who performed the tracheotomy?

Dr. Baxter. Dr. Perry and myself, with the assistance of Dr. McClelland, and I believe that's all—there may have been one more person that held the retractor.

Mr. Specter. What else, if anything, did you do for President Kennedy at that time?

Dr. Baxter. During the tracheotomy, I helped with the insertion of a right anterior chest tube, and then helped Dr. Perry complete the tracheotomy. At that point none of us could hear a heartbeat present. Apparently this had ceased during the tracheotomy and the chest tube placement.

We then gave him or Dr. Perry and Dr. Clark alternated giving him closed chest cardiac massage only until we could get a cardioscope hooked up to tell us if there were any detectible heartbeat electrically present, at least, and there was none, and we discussed at that moment whether we should open the chest to attempt to revive him, while the closed chest massage was going on, and we had an opportunity to look at his head wound then and saw that the damage was beyond hope, that is, in a word—literally the right side of his head had been blown off. With this and the observation that the cerebellum was present—a large quantity of brain was present on the cart, well—we felt that such an additional heroic attempt was not warranted, and we did not pronounce him dead but ceased our efforts, and awaited the priest and last rites before we pronounced him dead.

Mr. Specter. Did the priest then arrive to perform the last rites?

Dr. Baxter. Yes.

Mr. Specter. At what time was he pronounced dead?

Dr. Baxter. As I recall, it was 1:08, I'm not sure, it may have been that that was Oswald.

Mr. Specter. But it was approximately 1 o'clock? Then, could the time of death be fixed with any precision?

Dr. Baxter. I don't think so—the time elapsing in all of this resuscitation and the time the heart actually ceased, I don't think one could be very sure of it. It was sometime between a quarter to 1 and 1 o'clock.

Mr. Specter. Have you now described all of the efforts which were made to save the life of the President?

Dr. Baxter. Only with the exception, I think, of the fluids that were administered. He was given hydrocortisone because of his previous medical condition. He was given no negative blood because the blood loss was rather fierce and, I believe that's all.

Mr. Specter. What other doctors arrived during the course of the treatment, in addition to those whom you have already mentioned?

Dr. Baxter. I don't recall—I know that there were more doctors present in the room, but their names, I'm not sure of. The reason I'm not sure is because we had some of the same crew and a different crew on the Governor and on Oswald, and I'm afraid that I've gotten them mixed up.

Mr. Specter. Now, will you describe in as much particularity as you can the nature of the head wound?

Dr. Baxter. The only wound that I actually saw—Dr. Clark examined this above the manubrium of the sternum, the sternal notch. This wound was in temporal parietal plate of bone laid outward to the side and there was a large area, oh, I would say 6 by 8 or 10 cm. of lacerated brain oozing from this wound,42 part of which was on the table and made a rather massive blood loss mixed with it and around it.

Mr. Specter. Did you notice any bullet hole below that large opening at the top of the head?

Dr. Baxter. No; I personally did not.

Mr. Specter. Will you describe with as much particularity as you can the wound which you noticed on the President's neck?

Dr. Baxter. The wound on the neck was approximately an inch and a half above the manubrium of the sternum, the sternal notch. This wound was in my estimation, 4 to 5 mm. in widest diameter and was a spherical wound. The edges of it—the size of the wound is measured by the hole plus the damaged skin around the area, so that it was a very small wound. And, it was directly in the midline. Now, this wound was excised in the performance of the tracheotomy and on the entry into the deeper tissues of the neck, there was considerable contusion of the muscles of the anterior neck and a moderate amount of bleeding around the trachea. The trachea was deviated slightly, I believe, to the left.

Our tracheotomy incision was made in the second tracheal ring which was immediately above the area of damage—where we thought the damaged area of the trachea was, which we did not dissect out, but once the endrotracheal tube was placed, the tracheotomy tube was placed into the trachea, it was below this tear in the trachea, and gave us good control or perfect control of respiration.

Mr. Specter. Were the characteristics of the wound on the neck sufficient to enable you to form an opinion with reasonable medical certainty as to what was the cause of the hole?

Dr. Baxter. Well, the wound was, I think, compatible with a gunshot wound. It did not appear to be a jagged wound such as one would expect with a very high velocity rifle bullet. We could not determine, or did not determine at that time whether this represented an entry or an exit wound. Judging from the caliber of the rifle that we later found or become acquainted with, this would more resemble a wound of entry. However, due to the density of the tissues of the neck and depending upon what a bullet of such caliber would pass through, the tissues that it would pass through on the way to the neck, I think that the wound could well represent either exit or entry wound.

Mr. Specter. Assuming some factors in addition to those which you personally observed, Dr. Baxter, what would your opinion be if these additional facts were present: First, the President had a bullet wound of entry on the right posterior thorax just above the upper border of the scapula with the wound measuring 7 by 4 mm. in oval shape, being 14 cm. from the tip of the right acromion process and 14 cm. below the tip of the right mastoid process—assume this is the set of facts, that the wound just described was caused by a 6.5 mm. bullet shot from approximately 160 to 250 feet away from the President, from a weapon having a muzzle velocity of approximately 2,000 feet per second, assuming as a third factor that the bullet passed through the President's body, going in between the strap muscles of the shoulder without violating the pleura space and exited at a point in the midline of the neck, would the hole which you saw on the President's throat be consistent with an exit point, assuming the factors which I have just given to you?

Dr. Baxter. Although it would be unusual for a high velocity missile of this type to cause a wound as you have described, the passage through tissue planes of this density could have well resulted in the sequence which you outline; namely, that the anterior wound does represent a wound of exit.

Mr. Specter. What would be the considerations which, in your mind, would make it, as you characterized it, unlikely?

Dr. Baxter. It would be unlikely because the damage that the bullet would create would be—first its speed would create a shock wave which would damage a larger number of tissues, as in its path, it would tend to strike, or usually would strike, tissues of greater density than this particular missile did and would then begin to tumble and would create larger jagged—the further it went, the more jagged would be the damage that it created; so that ordinarily there would have been a rather large wound of exit.

43 Mr. Specter. But relating the situation as I hypothesized it for you?

Dr. Baxter. Then it is perfectly understandable that this wound of exit was not of any greater magnitude than it was.

Mr. Specter. Dr. Baxter, is there a channel through which the bullet could have passed in the general direction which I have described to you where there would be very few tissues and virtually no tissues of great density?

Dr. Baxter. Yes; passing through the fascial plane which you have described, it could well not have these things happen to it, so that it would pass directly through—almost as if passing through a sheet of paper and the wound of exit would be no larger than the wound we saw.

Mr. Specter. What would the situation there be as to the shock wave which you have heretofore described?

Dr. Baxter. There would be a large amount of tissue damage which is not ordinarily seen immediately after a bullet has passed through. This is damage that is recognized several days later.

Mr. Specter. What causes the shock waves there, Doctor?

Dr. Baxter. This is just the velocity imparting pressure to surrounding tissues which damages them. It does not show, however, in the early course after a missile has passed through.

Mr. Specter. Well, would the shock waves have any effect upon the size, and nature of the hole of exit?

Dr. Baxter. No.

Mr. Specter. And if the bullet passed through the fascial plane without striking tissues of great density, would it have a tendency to tumble at all?

Dr. Baxter. No, it would not.

Mr. Specter. What has your experience been, if any, Doctor, with gunshot wounds?

Dr. Baxter. For the past 6 years—we admit and treat, I would estimate, around 500 gunshot wounds per year—thereabouts.

Mr. Specter. Have you ever had any formal training in gunshot wounds?

Dr. Baxter. Only that I received in the Army, with demonstration of various velocities and that type missile wounds.

Mr. Specter. Where was President Kennedy lying when you first saw him, Dr. Baxter?

Dr. Baxter. On the cart, on the emergency cart in trauma room 1.

Mr. Specter. Was he ever taken off of that cart from the time you first saw him until the time he was pronounced dead?

Dr. Baxter. No.

Mr. Specter. Was he ever turned over?

Dr. Baxter. No.

Mr. Specter. Would your examination have been conducted in any different way had this particular victim not been the President of the United States?

Dr. Baxter. I think—yes—in that we would have, particularly, postmortem examined the body much more carefully than we did. We would certainly have undressed him completely and determined all of the direction of the wounds at the time. This did not seem feasible under the circumstances.

Mr. Specter. Why was it not feasible under the circumstances?

Dr. Baxter. Mrs. Kennedy was in the room, there was a large number of people in the room by that time—Secret Service Agents, the priests and so on. As soon as the President was pronounced dead, the Secret Service more or less—well, requested that we clear the room and leave them with the President's body, which was done. Everything that the Secret Service wished was carried out.

Mr. Specter. What was that?

Dr. Baxter. Everything that the Secret Service asked us to do, we did, as rapidly as possible and this was one of their requests.

In addition, I must say that the emotional condition of all of us at that time was such that probably we would not—we didn't feel that we should do any more, since we were certain that autopsy would take care of all that we were going to miss.

Mr. Specter. Did the emotional situation have any effect in your professional opinion on the quality of the medical care which was rendered to the President?

44 Dr. Baxter. No; none at all. We, I think, everyone present in the room was certainly emotionally involved in the care of the President, but in no instance did I see less than the most meticulous and best judgment used in the care of the President.

Mr. Specter. And what, in your opinion, was the cause of death, Dr. Baxter?

Dr. Baxter. Gunshot wound to the head.

Mr. Specter. Would you have an opinion as to whether or not President Kennedy would have survived the gunshot wound which you observed in the neck?

Dr. Baxter. We saw no evidence that it had struck anything in the neck that would not be well taken care of by simply—by the tracheotomy and chest tubes.

Mr. Specter. Did you find any bullets in the President's body?

Dr. Baxter. No, we did not.

Mr. Specter. Any fragments of bullets in the President's body?

Mr. Baxter. No, sir.

Mr. Specter. Dr. Baxter, I now show you Commission Exhibit 392, which has been heretofore identified in Commission Proceedings as the report from Parkland Memorial Hospital, and I now call your attention to a page which purports to bear your signature, and a written report which you rendered under date of November 22, 1963. I ask you, first of all, if that is your signature?

Dr. Baxter. Yes.

Mr. Specter. And, if this is the report which you submitted?

Dr. Baxter. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Do you have any other writings or notes of any sort concerning your care of President Kennedy?

Dr. Baxter. No.

Mr. Specter. Will you read into the record, Dr. Baxter, the contents of your report, because it is a little hard to read in spots?

Dr. Baxter. "I was contacted at approximately 12:40 that the President was on the way to the Emergency Room, having been shot. On arrival there, I found an endotracheal tube in place with assisted respirations, a left chest tube being inserted, and cutdowns going in one leg and in the left arm.

The President had a wound in the midline of the neck. On first observation of the remaining wounds, the temporal and parietal bones were missing and the brain was lying on the table with extensive lacerations and contusions. The pupils were fixed and deviated laterally and dilated. No pulse was detectable, respirations were (as noted) being supplemented. A tracheotomy was performed by Dr. Perry and I and a chest tube inserted into the right chest (second interspace anteriorly). Meanwhile, 2 pints of O negative blood was administered by pump without response. When all of these measures were complete, no heartbeat could be detected, closed chest massage was performed until a cardioscope could be attached, which revealed no cardiac activity was obtained.

Due to the extensive and irreparable brain damage which was detected, no further attempt to resuscitate the heart was made."

Mr. Specter. And that bears your signature?

Dr. Baxter. Charles R. Baxter, M.D., assistant professor of surgery, Southwestern Medical School, University of Texas.

Mr. Specter. Dr. Baxter, has any representative of the Federal Government ever talked to you about this matter prior to today?

Dr. Baxter. The only person was a Secret Service Agent about—approximately three weeks ago who asked me if I had any additional written comments anywhere or had made any writings on the medical treatment of the President, and the answer was "No."

Mr. Specter. Now, prior to the time that the court reporter started to transcribe my questions and your answers, did you and I briefly discuss this deposition proceeding, its purpose and the questions which I would ask you?

Dr. Baxter. Yes.

Mr. Specter. And are the answers given on the record here the same as you gave me in our brief conversation before the transcription was started?

Dr. Baxter. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Do you have anything to add which you think might be helpful in any way to the work of the Commission?

45 Dr. Baxter. No.

Mr. Specter. Thank you very much for coming, Dr. Baxter.

Dr. Baxter. Thank you.

TESTIMONY OF DR. MARION THOMAS JENKINS

The testimony of Dr. Marion Thomas Jenkins was taken at 5:30 p.m., on March 25, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. Specter. May the record show that Dr. M. T. Jenkins has appeared in response to a letter request in connection with the inquiry of the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy, to testify concerning his observations and medical treatment performed by him on President Kennedy, and with this preliminary statement of purpose, would you stand up, please, Dr. Jenkins, and raise your right hand.

Do you solemnly swear the testimony you give before the President's Commission in this deposition proceeding, will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Dr. Jenkins. I do.

Mr. Specter. Would you state your full name for the record, please?

Dr. Jenkins. Marion Thomas Jenkins.

Mr. Specter. What is your profession, please?

Dr. Jenkins. I'm a physician.

Mr. Specter. Are you licensed by the State of Texas to practice medicine?

Dr. Jenkins. Yes.

Mr. Specter. And what is your specialty, Dr. Jenkins?

Dr. Jenkins. Anesthesiology.

Mr. Specter. Will you outline your educational background for me, please?

Dr. Jenkins. I am a graduate of the University of Texas in 1937. I have a B.A. degree and an M.D. degree from the University of Texas Medical Branch at Galveston in 1940, rotating internship at the University of Kansas Hospital, Kansas City, Kans., 1940–41; Assistant Residency in Internal Medicine, John Sealy Hospital in Galveston, Tex., 1941–42; active duty in the U.S. Navy as a Medical Officer, 1942 to 1946; Resident in Surgery—Parkland Hospital, Dallas, 1946–47; Resident in anesthesiology in the Massachusetts General Hospital, Boston, 1947–48; and Director of the Department of Anesthesiology, Parkland Hospital and Parkland Memorial Hospital, 1948 to the present; Professor and Chairman of the Department of Anesthesiology, University of Texas, Southwestern Medical School—since 1951. Diplomate—other certification, do you want this?

Mr. Specter. Yes, what Boards are you certified?

Dr. Jenkins. I am a Diplomate of the American Board of Anesthesiology and also fellow of the American College of Anesthesiologists.

Mr. Specter. And what year were you certified by the American Board?

Dr. Jenkins. 1952.

Mr. Specter. Did you have occasion to assist in the treatment of President Kennedy on November 22, 1963?

Dr. Jenkins. Yes.

Mr. Specter. And will you relate briefly the circumstances surrounding your being called into that case?

Dr. Jenkins. Well, I was in the dining room with other members of the hospital staff when we heard the Chief of Surgery, Dr. Tom Shires, being paged "Stat." This is a rather unusual call, for the Chief of any service to be called "Stat" as this is the emergency call.

Mr. Specter. What does that mean, "Stat"?

Dr. Jenkins. "Stat" means emergency, that's just a code word that has been used for years in medical terms. He was paged twice this way, and one of the46 surgical residents, Dr. Ronald Jones, answered the phone, thinking something bad must be up and that he would call the Chief of Surgery. I was sitting near the telephone and Dr. Jones immediately came back by with a very anguished look and the color was drained from his face—I'm sure I had that impression, and he said, "The President has been shot and is on his way to the hospital." At the same time we heard the sirens of the ambulance as they turned into the driveway from Harry Hines into the hospital drive, and it was obvious that this was the car coming in because the ambulance sirens usually stop in the street, but these came on clear to the building.

Mr. Specter. That's Harry Hines Boulevard right in front of the hospital?

Dr. Jenkins. Yes; I ran up the stairs to the Anesthesia Department, that's on the second floor—one floor above the dining room, where I was, and notified two members of the Department, the first two I saw, my Chief Associate, Dr. A. H. Giesecke, Jr., and Dr. Jackie Hunt, that the President had been shot and was being brought to the emergency room and for them to bring all the resuscitative equipment we have including an anesthesia machine. The emergency room is set up well, but we are used to working with our own equipment and I asked them to bring it down and I ran down the back stairs, two flights down, and I arrived in the emergency room just after or right behind him being wheeled in, I guess.

Mr. Specter. At about what time did you arrive at the emergency room?

Dr. Jenkins. Oh, this was around 12:30–12:35 to 12:40. I shouldn't be indefinite about this—in our own specialty practice, we watch the clock closely, and there are many things we have to keep up with, but I didn't get that time exactly, I'll admit.

Mr. Specter. Who was present at the time of your arrival in the emergency room, if anyone?

Dr. Jenkins. The hallway was loaded with people.

Mr. Specter. What medical personnel were in attendance?

Dr. Jenkins. Including Mrs. Kennedy, I recognized, and Secret Service men, I didn't know whether to block the way or get out of it, as it turned out. Dr. James Carrico and Dr. Dulany—Dick Dulany, I guess you have his name, and several nurses were in the room.

Mr. Specter. Could you identify the nurses?

Dr. Jenkins. Well, not really. I could identify them only having later looked around and identified from my own record that I have, the names of all who were there later. Now, whether they are the same ones when I first went there, I don't know. I have all the names in my report, it seemed to me.

Mr. Specter. Could you now identify all of the nurses from your later observations of them?

Dr. Jenkins. Well, I can identify who was in there at the close of the procedure, that is, the doctors, as well as those who were helping.

Mr. Specter. Fine, would you do that for us, please?

Dr. Jenkins. These included a Mrs. or Miss Patricia Hutton and Miss Diana Bowron, B-o-w-r-o-n (spelling), and a Miss Henchliffe—I don't know her first name, but I do know it is Henchliffe.

Mr. Specter. Margaret?

Dr. Jenkins. Margaret—certainly. Those three—there were probably some student nurses too, whom I didn't recognize. Shall I continue?

Mr. Specter. Yes, please. Have you now covered all the people you recollect as being in the room?

Dr. Jenkins. Well, as I came into the room, I saw only the—actually—you know, in the haste of the coming of the President, two doctors whom I recognized, and there were other people and I have identified all I remember.

Mr. Specter. What did you observe as to the President's condition when you arrived in the emergency room?

Dr. Jenkins. Well, I was aware of what he was in an agonal state. This is not a too unfamiliar state that we see in the Service, as much trauma as we see, that is, he had the agonal respiratory gasp made up of jerking movements of the mylohyoid group of muscles. These are referred to sometimes as chin jerk, tracheal tug or agonal muscles of respiration. He had this47 characteristic of respiration. His eyes were opened and somewhat exophthalmic and color was greatly suffused, cyanotic—a purplish cyanosis.

Still, we have patients in the state, as far as cyanosis and agonal type respiration, who are resuscitatable. Of course, you don't stop at this time and think, "Well, this is a hopeless circumstance,"—because one in this state can often be resusciated—this represents the activities prior to one's demise sometimes, and if it can be stopped, such as the patient is oxygenated again and circulation reinstituted, he can be saved.

Dr. Carrico had just introduced an endotracheal tube, I'm very proud of him for this because it's not as easy as it sounds. At times and under the circumstances—it was harder—he had just completed a 3-month rotation on the anesthesiology service, and I thought this represented good background training for a smart individual, and he told me he had a cuff on the endotracheal tube and he introduced it below the wound.

The reason I said this, of course, this is a reflex—there is a tube, the endotracheal tube, if it is pushed down a little too far it can go into the right main stem of the bronchus impairing respiration from both lungs, or both chests.

There was in the room an intermittent positive pressure breathing apparatus, which can be used to respire for a patient. As I connected this up, however, Dr. Carrico and I connected it up to give oxygen by artificial respiration, Dr. Giesecke and Dr. Hunt arrived on the scene with the anesthesia machine and I connected it up instead with something I am more familiar with—not for anesthesia, I must insist on that—it was for the oxygenation, the ability to control ventilation with 100 percent oxygen.

As I came in there, other people came in also. This is my recollection. Now, by this time I was in familiar surroundings, despite the anguish of the circumstance.

Despite the unusual circumstance, in terms of the distinguished personage who was the patient, I think the people who had gathered or who had congregated were so accustomed to doing resuscitative procedures of this nature that they knew where to fit into the resuscitation team without having a preconceived or predirected plan, because, as obviously—some people were doing things not necessarily in their specialty, but there was the opening and there was the necessity for this being done.

There were three others who came in as I did who recognized at once the neck wound, in fact, where the wound was, would indicate that we would have serious pulmonary problems unless a tracheotomy tube was put in. This is one way of avoiding pushing air out through a fractured trachea and down into each chest cavity, which would cause a pneumothorax or a collapse of the lungs. These were doctors Malcolm Perry, Charley Baxter, and Robert McClelland, who with Dr. Carrico's help, I believe, started the tracheotomy.

About this time Drs. Kemp Clark and Paul Peters came in, and Dr. Peters because of the appearance of the right chest, the obvious physical characteristics of a pneumothorax, put in a closed chest drainage—chest tube. Because I felt no peripheral pulse and was not aware of any pulse, I reported this to Dr. Clark and he started closed chest cardiac massage.

There were other people—one which started an I.V. in a cutdown in the right leg and one a cutdown in the left arm. Two of my department connected up the cardioscope, in which we had electrical silence on the cardioscope as Dr. Clark started closed chest massage. That's the sequence of events as I reconstructed them that day and dictated them on my report, which you have here, I think.

Mr. Specter. Speaking of your report, Dr. Jenkins, permit me to show you a group of papers heretofore identified as Commission Exhibit No. 392 which has also been identified by Mr. Price, the hospital Administrator, as being photostatic copies of original reports in his possession and controlled as Custodian of Records, and I show you what purports to be a report from you to Mr. Price, dated November 22, 1963, and ask you if in fact this 2-page report was submitted by you to Mr. Price?

Dr. Jenkins. Yes; it was.

Mr. Specter. Now, going back to the wound which you observed in the neck, did you see that wound before the tracheotomy was performed?

48 Dr. Jenkins. Yes; I did, because I was just connecting up the endotracheal tube to the machine at the time and that's when Dr. Carrico said there was a wound in the neck and I looked at it.

Mr. Specter. Would you describe that wound as specifically as you can?

Dr. Jenkins. Well, I'm afraid my description of it would not be as accurate, of course, as that of the surgeons who were doing the tracheotomy, because my look was a quick look before connecting up the endotracheal tube to the apparatus to help in ventilation and respiration for the patient, and I was aware later in the day, as I should have put it in the report, that I thought this was a wound of exit because it was not a clean wound, and by "clean" clearly demarcated, round, punctate wound which is the usual wound of an entrance wound, made by a missile and at some speed. Of course, entrance wounds with a lobbing type missile, can make a jagged wound also, but I was of the impression and I recognized I had the impression it was an exit wound. However, my mental appreciation for a wound—for the wound in the neck, I believe, was sort of—was overshadowed by recognition of the wound in the scalp and skull plate.

Mr. Specter. Have you now described the wound in the neck as specifically as you can at this moment?

Dr. Jenkins. I believe so.

Mr. Specter. Now, will you now describe the wound which you observed in the head?

Dr. Jenkins. Almost by the time I was—had the time to pay more attention to the wound in the head, all of these other activities were under way. I was busy connecting up an apparatus to respire for the patient, exerting manual pressure on the breathing bag or anesthesia apparatus, trying to feel for a pulse in the neck, and then reaching up and feeling for one in the temporal area, seeing about connecting the cardioscope or directing its being connected, and then turned attention to the wound in the head.

Now, Dr. Clark had begun closed chest cardiac massage at this time and I was aware of the magnitude of the wound, because with each compression of the chest, there was a great rush of blood from the skull wound. Part of the brain was herniated; I really think part of the cerebellum, as I recognized it, was herniated from the wound; there was part of the brain tissue, broken fragments of the brain tissue on the drapes of the cart on which the President lay.

Mr. Specter. Did you observe any wounds immediately below the massive loss of skull which you have described?

Dr. Jenkins. On the right side?

Mr. Specter. Yes, sir.

Dr. Jenkins. No—I don't know whether this is right or not, but I thought there was a wound on the left temporal area, right in the hairline and right above the zygomatic process.

Mr. Specter. The autopsy report discloses no such development, Dr. Jenkins.

Dr. Jenkins. Well, I was feeling for—I was palpating here for a pulse to see whether the closed chest cardiac massage was effective or not and this probably was some blood that had come from the other point and so I thought there was a wound there also.

Mr. Specter. At approximately what time was President Kennedy pronounced dead?

Dr. Jenkins. Well, this was pronounced, we know the exact time as 1300, according to my watch, at least, at the time.

Mr. Specter. And what, in your opinion, was the cause of death?

Dr. Jenkins. Cerebral injury—brain injury.

Mr. Specter. Was President Kennedy ever turned over during the course of this treatment at Parkland?

Dr. Jenkins. No.

Mr. Specter. Why was he not turned over, Dr. Jenkins?

Dr. Jenkins. Oh, I think this was beyond our prerogative completely. I think as we pronounced the President dead, those in attendance who were there just sort of melted away, well, I guess "melted" is the wrong word, but we felt like we were intruders and left. I'm sure that this was considerably beyond our prerogative, and the facts were we knew he had a fatal wound, and I think my49 own personal feeling was that this was—would have been meddlesome on anybody's part after death to have done any further search.

Mr. Specter. Was any examination of his back made before death, to your knowledge?

Dr. Jenkins. No, no; I'm sure there wasn't.

Mr. Specter. Did he remain on the stretcher cart at all times while he was being cared for?

Dr. Jenkins. Yes, sir.

Can I say something that isn't in the report here, or not?

Mr. Specter. Yes; let's go off the record a minute.

(Discussion off the record between Counsel Specter and the witness, Dr. Jenkins.)

Mr. Specter. May the record show that we are back on the record and Dr. Jenkins has made an interesting observation about the time of the declaration of death, and I will ask you, Dr. Jenkins, for you to repeat for the record what you have just said off the record.

Dr. Jenkins. As the resuscitative maneuvers were begun, such as "chest cardiac massage," there was with each compression of the sternum, a gush of blood from the skull wound, which indicated there was massive vascular damage in the skull and the brain, as well as brain tissue damage, and we recognized by this time that the patient was beyond the point of resuscitation, that he was in fact dead, and this was substantiated by getting a silent electrical pattern on the electrocardiogram, the cardioscope that was connected up.

However, for a period of minutes, but I can't now define exactly, since I didn't put this in a report, after we knew he was dead, we continued attempted resuscitative maneuvers.

When we saw the two priests who arrived in the corridor outside the emergency room where this was taking place, I went to the door and asked one of those—after turning over my ventilation, my respiration job to another one of my department—and asked him what is the proper time to declare one dead. That is, I am not a Catholic and I was not sure of the time for the last rites. As I remember now, he said, "The time that the soul leaves the body—is not at exactly the time that medical testimony might say that death was declared." There would be a period of time and so if we wished to declare him dead at that time they would still have the final rites.

Mr. Specter. Did they then have the final rites after the time he was declared dead medically?

Dr. Jenkins. Well, just a minute now—I suspect that was hazy to me that day—I'm not sure, it's still hazy. This was a very personal—on the part of the very anguished occasion, and Mrs. Kennedy had come back into the room and most of the people were beginning to leave because they felt like this was such a grief stricken and private affair that they should not be there. It was real intrusion even after they put forth such efforts at resuscitation and I'm not sure now whether the priests came in while I was still doing the resuscitative procedure, respiration at least, and while Dr. Clark was still doing the other. My memory is that we had stopped. I was still present, however, and that's the reason I'm not clear, because I hadn't left the room and I was still there as the rites were performed and a prayer was said.

Mr. Specter. Dr. Jenkins, would your observation of the wound and your characterization of it as an exit hole be consistent with a set of facts which I will ask you to assume for purposes of giving me your view or opinion.

Assume, first of all, if you will, that President Kennedy had a wound on the upper right posterior thorax just above the upper border of the scapula, measuring 14 cm. from the tip of the right acromion process and 14 cm. below the tip of the right mastoid process, and that the missile was a 6.5 mm. jacketed bullet fired from a weapon having a muzzle velocity of approximately 2,000 feet per second and approximately 160 to 250 feet from the President, and that after entering the President's body at the point indicated, the missile traveled between two strap muscles and through a fascia plane without violating the pleura cavity, and then struck the right side of the trachea and exited through50 the throat, would the throat wound which you observed be consistent with such a wound inflicted in the manner I have just described?

Dr. Jenkins. As far as I know, it wouldn't be inconsistent with it, Mr. Specter.

Mr. Specter. What has your experience been with gunshot wounds, that is, to what extent have you had experience with such wounds?

Dr. Jenkins. Well, having been Chief of the Anesthesia Service here for this 16 years, we have a rather large trauma emergency service, and so I see gunshot wounds many times a week. I'm afraid I couldn't hazard a guess at the moment as to how many we see a year, and I'm afraid probably if I knew, I would not like to admit to this number, but I do go further in saying that my main interest is not in the tracks of the wounds. My main interest is what physiological changes that they have caused to the patient that I am to anesthetize or a member of the department is to anesthetize, what has happened to the cardiovascular system, respiratory, and neurological, and so I am aware of the wounds of entrance and exit only by a peripheral part of my knowledge and activities during the time.

Mr. Specter. Have you ever had any formal training in ballistics or in exit wounds or entrance wounds—bullet wounds?

Dr. Jenkins. No, I have not.

Mr. Specter. Have you talked to any representative of the Federal Government at any time prior to today?

Dr. Jenkins. Oh, there was a man whose name I don't remember now, who showed what looked like the proper credentials from the FBI, who came to ask only whether the report I had submitted to Mr. Price for the hospital record or for Mr. Price's record constituted all the reports I had. That's the only time, and that was the extent of our conversation, I think.

Mr. Specter. And is that the only written record you have of your participation in the treatment of the President?

Dr. Jenkins. Oh, I submitted one to the Dean of the Medical School, essentially the same, and a very little more. I don't think you have that. I don't know whether you want it or not.

Mr. Specter. Yes, I would like to see it.

Dr. Jenkins. It is essentially the same report—however—can I ask you something off of the record here?

Mr. Specter. Sure.

(Discussion between Counsel Specter and the witness, Dr. Jenkins, off the record.)

Mr. Specter. The record will show that we have been off the record on a couple of matters which I am going to now put on the record, but I will ask the court reporter to identify this as Dr. Jenkins' Exhibit No. 36.

(Instrument referred to marked by the Reporter as Dr. Jenkins' Exhibit No. 36, for identification.)

Mr. Specter. I will ask you, Dr. Jenkins, for the record to identify this as a report which you submitted to Dean Gill.

Dr. Jenkins. Yes, it is.

Mr. Specter. And is this in conjunction with the report you submitted to Mr. Price—do these reports constitute all the writings you have on your participation in the treatment of President Kennedy?

Dr. Jenkins. Yes; that's right.

Mr. Specter. One of the comments we were just discussing off the record—I would like to put on the record, Dr. Jenkins, is the question as to whether or not the wound in the neck would have been fatal in your opinion, absent the head wound. What would your view of that be?

Dr. Jenkins. Well, from my knowledge of the wound in the neck, this would not have been fatal, except for one thing, and that is—you have not told me whether the wound with its point of entrance and point of exit had contacted the vertebral column in its course?

Mr. Specter. It did not.

Dr. Jenkins. In that case I would not expect this wound to have been fatal.

Mr. Specter. What is your view, Dr. Jenkins, as to whether the wounds which you observed were caused by one or two bullets?

51 Dr. Jenkins. I felt quite sure at the time that there must have been two bullets—two missiles.

Mr. Specter. And, Dr. Jenkins, what was your reason for that?

Dr. Jenkins. Because the wound with the exploded area of the scalp, as I interpreted it being exploded, I would interpret it being a wound of exit, and the appearance of the wound in the neck, and I also thought it was a wound of exit.

Mr. Specter. Have you ever changed any of your original opinions in connection with the wounds received by President Kennedy?

Dr. Jenkins. I guess so. The first day I had thought because of his pneumothorax, that his wound must have gone—that the one bullet must have traversed his pleura, must have gotten into his lung cavity, his chest cavity, I mean, and from what you say now, I know it did not go that way. I thought it did.

Mr. Specter. Aside from that opinion, now, have any of your other opinions about the nature of his wounds or the sources of the wounds been changed in any way?

Dr. Jenkins. No; one other. I asked you a little bit ago if there was a wound in the left temporal area, right above the zygomatic bone in the hairline, because there was blood there and I thought there might have been a wound there (indicating).

Mr. Specter. Indicating the left temporal area?

Dr. Jenkins. Yes; the left temporal, which could have been a point of entrance and exit here (indicating), but you have answered that for me. This was my only other question about it.

Mr. Specter. So, that those two points are the only ones on which your opinions have been changed since the views you originally formulated?

Dr. Jenkins. Yes, I think so.

Mr. Specter. On the President's injuries?

Dr. Jenkins. Yes, I think so.

Mr. Specter. Is the conversation you had with that Secret Service Agent the only time you were interviewed by anyone from the Federal Government prior to today about this subject?

Dr. Jenkins. As far as I remember—I don't believe so.

Mr. Specter. Now, you say that was the only time you were interviewed?

Dr. Jenkins. Yes, as far as I remember—I have had no formal interviews. I have been asked—there have been some people calling on the phone. As you know, there were many calls from various sources all over the country after that, wanting to know whether we had done this method of treatment or some other method and what principles we followed.

Mr. Specter. But the only one you can identify as being from the Federal Government is the one you have already related from the Secret Service?

Dr. Jenkins. Yes.

Mr. Specter. And did you and I have a very brief conversation before the deposition started today, when you gave me some of your views which you expounded and expanded upon during the course of the deposition on the record?

Dr. Jenkins. Yes.

Mr. Specter. And is there anything which you think of to add that you believe would be of some assistance or any assistance to the President's Commission in its inquiry?

Dr. Jenkins. I believe not, Mr. Specter.

Mr. Specter. Well, thank you very much, Dr. Jenkins.

Dr. Jenkins. All right.

52

TESTIMONY OF DR. RONALD COY JONES

The testimony of Dr. Ronald Coy Jones was taken at 10:20 a.m., on March 24, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. Specter. May the record show at this point that Dr. Ronald Jones has arrived in response to a letter of request to give his deposition for the President's Commission on the assassination of President Kennedy.

Dr. Jones, the purpose of the President's Commission is to investigate all the facts relating to the shooting and subsequent medical treatment of President Kennedy and we have asked you to appear to testify concerning your knowledge of that treatment.

With that statement of purpose, will you stand up and raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you give before the President's Commission during the course of this deposition proceeding will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Dr. Jones. I do.

Mr. Specter. Would you state your full name for the record, please?

Dr. Jones. Ronald Coy Jones.

Mr. Specter. What is your profession, sir?

Dr. Jones. General Surgery—resident physician.

Mr. Specter. Are you duly licensed by the State of Texas to practice medicine?

Dr. Jones. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Will you outline briefly your educational background?

Dr. Jones. I graduated—I went to undergraduate school at the University of Arkansas from 1950 to 1953, in pre-med. From 1953 through 1957, I went to medical school and graduated from the University of Tennessee in Memphis, and in 1957 through 1958 I took an internship in Los Angeles County General Hospital.

From there I went to the University of Oklahoma and took a 2-year general practice residency, 1 year, the first year, entailing a year of internal medicine and its subspecialties, and a second year of surgery and its subspecialties, which was approved by the American Board of Surgeons for 1 year of surgical training, and from 1960 until the present time I have taken an additional 4 years of general surgery at Parkland, and have served as Chief Resident of Surgery.

Mr. Specter. Did you have occasion to aid in the medical treatment of President Kennedy on November 22, 1963?

Dr. Jones. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. Would you relate briefly the circumstances surrounding your being called into the case?

Dr. Jones. I was eating lunch with Dr. Perry and I heard the operator page Dr. Tom Shires of the staff on two occasions, and the second time I answered the phone and the operator told me that the President had been shot and was being brought to the emergency room.

I turned around and immediately notified Miss Audrey Bell, who is the operating room supervisor so that any arrangements could be made for immediate surgery, and Dr. M. T. Jenkins, who is the Chief of the Anesthesiology Department. From there I went across the room and notified Dr. Perry of the shooting and we both went together to the emergency room, and it was at that time we arrived shortly after the President had been brought in.

Mr. Specter. What is your best estimate as to the time you arrived at the emergency room?

Dr. Jones. It was, I would say, around 23 or 25 minutes until 1.

Mr. Specter. And who was present, if anyone, at the time you arrived?

Dr. Jones. Dr. James Carrico, and possibly Dr. Richard Dulany, and I'm not sure that he was there or was there for just a few minutes after we arrived. I do recall seeing him there as one of the first ones.

Mr. Specter. Was any nurse present at that time?

Dr. Jones. The head nurse in the emergency room was present and——

Mr. Specter. Do you know her name?

Dr. Jones. It's left my mind right now—I know her.

Mr. Specter. Could that be Miss Henchliffe?

Dr. Jones. She was there, I believe.

Mr. Specter. Mrs. Bowron?

Dr. Jones. No—just the—

Mr. Specter. Mrs. Nelson?

53 Dr. Jones. Nelson.

Mr. Specter. Was anyone else present then, other than those whom you have already mentioned at the time you arrived?

Dr. Jones. There were three nurses there—Mrs. Nelson, Miss Henchliffe and Miss Bowron.

Mr. Specter. And were any other doctors present when you arrived?

Dr. Jones. Dr. Carrico was the only doctor other than possibly Dr. Dulany, and I do know Dr. Carrico was there when I arrived.

Mr. Specter. Was Dr. Don Curtis there when you arrived?

Dr. Jones. I didn't see him.

Mr. Specter. And who arrived with you, if you recall?

Dr. Jones. Dr. Perry.

Mr. Specter. And what did you observe the President's condition to be upon your arrival?

Dr. Jones. He appeared to be terminal, if not already expired, and Dr. Carrico said that he had seen some attempted respirations, agonal respirations, and with that history, we went ahead with emergency measures to try to restore the airway.

Mr. Specter. When you say "attempted agonal respiration," do you mean an effort by the President?

Dr. Jones. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Or, an effort by someone else to induce respiration?

Dr. Jones. No, these apparently were as Dr. Carrico saw the President was attempting to respire on his own, however, I did not personally see this in the brief seconds that I stood there before I went ahead and started work.

Mr. Specter. What is the lay definition for agonal respiration?

Dr. Jones. These are the respirations that are somewhat of a strain, that is, seen in a patient who is expiring—just very short, irregular type respirations.

Mr. Specter. Would you continue now to describe what you observed to be the President's condition?

Dr. Jones. We felt that he was in extreme shock, merely by the fact that there was no motion, that he was somewhat cyanotic, his eyes were—appeared to be fixed; there was no evidence of motion of the eyes; and we noticed that he did not have a satisfactory airway or was not breathing on his own in a satisfactory way to sustain life so that we felt that either an endotracheal tube had to be instituted immediately, which was done by Dr. Carrico. We felt that this was not adequate and since tracheotomy equipment was in the room, we felt that he would profit more by tracheotomy and that we could be certain that he was getting adequate oxygen.

Mr. Specter. What was done with respect to applying oxygen to the President then?

Dr. Jones. Well, a tracheotomy was done, and then an adapter was fitted to this tube, and we had an anesthesia machine there by this time with Dr. Jenkins available so that he could give him straight oxygen from the machine.

Mr. Specter. Did you observe anything else with respect to the President's condition at that time?

Dr. Jones. You mean as far as wounds—that he had?

Mr. Specter. Did you observe any wounds?

Dr. Jones. As we saw him the first time, we noticed that he had a small wound at the midline of the neck, just above the suprasternal notch, and this was probably no greater than a quarter of an inch in greatest diameter, and that he had a large wound in the right posterior side of the head.

Mr. Specter. When you say "we noticed," whom do you mean by that?

Dr. Jones. Well, Dr. Perry and I were the two that were there at this time observing.

Mr. Specter. Did Dr. Perry make any comment about the nature of the wound at that time? Either wound?

Dr. Jones. Not that I recall.

Mr. Specter. Will you describe as precisely as you can the nature of the head wound?

Dr. Jones. There was large defect in the back side of the head as the President lay on the cart with what appeared to be some brain hanging out of this54 wound with multiple pieces of skull noted next with the brain and with a tremendous amount of clot and blood.

Mr. Specter. Will you describe as precisely as you can the wound that you observed in the throat?

Dr. Jones. The wound in the throat was probably no larger than a quarter of an inch in diameter. There appeared to be no powder burn present, although this could have been masked by the amount of blood that was on the head and neck, although there was no obvious amount of powder present. There appeared to be a very minimal amount of disruption of interruption of the surrounding skin. There appeared to be relatively smooth edges around the wound, and if this occurred as a result of a missile, you would have probably thought it was a missile of very low velocity and probably could have been compatible with a bone fragment of either—probably exiting from the neck, but it was a very small, smooth wound.

Mr. Specter. Did you notice any lump in the throat area?

Dr. Jones. No; I didn't.

Mr. Specter. Was there any blood on the throat area in the vicinity of the wound which you have described of the throat?

Dr. Jones. Not a great deal of blood, as if in relation to the amount that was around the head—not too much.

Mr. Specter. What further action was taken by the medical team in addition to that which you have described on the tracheotomy?

Dr. Jones. Well, as Dr. Perry started the tracheotomy, I started the cut down in the left arm to insert a large polyethylene catheter, to give an I.V. so that we could give I.V. solutions as well as blood, and at the same time another doctor or two were doing some cutdowns in the lower extremities around the ankle. We made the cutdown in the left arm in the cephalic vein very rapidly and I.V. fluids were started immediately and as I was doing this, Dr. Perry was performing the tracheotomy, and it was about this time that Dr. Baxter came in and went ahead to assist Dr. Perry with the tracheotomy, and as they made a deeper incision in the neck to isolate the trachea, they thought they saw some gush of air and the possibility of a pneumothorax on one side or the other was entertained, and since I was to the left of the President, I went ahead and put in the anterior chest tube in the second intercostal space.

Mr. Specter. Was that tube fully inserted, Doctor?

Dr. Jones. I felt that the tube was fully inserted, and this was immediately connected to underwater drainage.

Mr. Specter. What do you mean by "connected to underwater drainage", Dr. Jones?

Dr. Jones. The tube is connected to a bottle whereby it aerates in the chest from a pneumothorax and as the patient breathes, the air is forced out under the water and produces somewhat of a suction so that the lung will reexpand and will not stay collapsed and this will give adequate aeration to the body, and we decided to go ahead and put in a chest tube on the opposite side; since I could not reach the opposite side due to the number of people that were working on the President. Dr. Baxter was over there helping Dr. Perry on that side, as well as Dr. Paul Peters, the assistant head of urology here, and the three of us then inserted the chest tube on the right side, primarily done by Dr. Baxter and Dr. Peters on the right side.

Mr. Specter. Then what other treatment, if any, was afforded President Kennedy?

Dr. Jones. After the tracheotomy was done, the intravenous fluid, blood was started—I believe that the President was also administered some hydrocortisone because of his history of adrenal insufficiency, and at this time an electrocardiogram had been connected and it showed no evidence of a heartbeat. Closed cardiac massage was then first begun by Dr. Perry and then I believe that after about 5 minutes no significant or no myocardial activity was present and he was pronounced dead.

Mr. Specter. What history did you refer to of President Kennedy's adrenal insufficiency?

Dr. Jones. As I recall, there had been in news that the President had several years ago been on some type of steroid therapy and that he possibly had55 Addison's disease. We had no documented evidence that he did or did not, but caution was taken nonetheless in case his insufficiency was of severe enough nature, because at the time of severe trauma a patient with adrenal insufficiency often goes into a rapid degree of adrenal insufficiency and can expire from lack of steroids being produced from the adrenal gland in such a stressed situation.

Mr. Specter. Did you obtain that history from Mrs. Kennedy, or any other person on the scene?

Dr. Jones. No.

Mr. Specter. You just relied upon what had been occurring in the news?

Dr. Jones. Yes.

Mr. Specter. What would that reaction cause, if anything, if the President had no adrenal insufficiency?

Dr. Jones. This would not cause severe effects on any organ at all if the adrenal gland were producing enough steroids.

Mr. Specter. Did any other doctors arrive during the time this treatment was going on, other than those whom you have already mentioned?

Dr. Jones. Several doctors did subsequently appear in the room—Dr. McClelland appeared shortly after Dr. Baxter, within a matter of just a very few minutes, as well as Dr. Kemp Clark, who is head of neurosurgery here.

Mr. Specter. Any other doctors?

Dr. Jones. Dr. Jenkins was there and I think these are primarily the ones that actually had any part, as far as taking care of the President, although there were some other doctors in the room.

Mr. Specter. Dr. Jones, I now hand you a report which purports to bear your signature, labeled "Summary of treatment of the President," dated November 23, 1963, which I shall now ask the Court Reporter to mark as Dr. Jones' Exhibit No. 1.

(Instrument mentioned marked by the Reporter as Dr. Jones' Exhibit No. 1, for identification.)

Mr. Specter. I ask you if this in fact is your signature?

Dr. Jones. Yes.

Mr. Specter. And I ask you if this was the report which you submitted concerning your participation of the treatment of President Kennedy?

Dr. Jones. Yes; it was.

Mr. Specter. In this report, Dr. Jones, you state the following, "Previously described severe skull and brain injury was noted as well as a small hole in anterior midline of the neck thought to be a bullet entrance wound." What led you to the thought that it was a bullet entrance wound, sir?

Dr. Jones. The hole was very small and relatively clean cut, as you would see in a bullet that is entering rather than exiting from a patient. If this were an exit wound, you would think that it exited at a very low velocity to produce no more damage than this had done, and if this were a missile of high velocity, you would expect more of an explosive type of exit wound, with more tissue destruction than this appeared to have on superficial examination.

Mr. Specter. Would it be consistent, then, with an exit wound, but of low velocity, as you put it?

Dr. Jones. Yes; of very low velocity to the point that you might think that this bullet barely made it through the soft tissues and just enough to drop out of the skin on the opposite side.

Mr. Specter. What is your experience, Doctor, if any, in the treatment of bullet wounds?

Dr. Jones. During our residency here we have approximately 1 complete year out of the 4 years on the trauma service here, and this is in addition to the 2 months that we spend every other day and every other night in the emergency room during our first year, so that we see a tremendous number of bullet wounds here in that length of time, sometimes as many as four and five a night.

Mr. Specter. Have you ever had any formal training in bullet wounds?

Dr. Jones. No.

Mr. Specter. Have you ever had occasion to observe a bullet wound which was inflicted by a missile at approximate size of a 6.5 mm. bullet which passed56 through the body of a person and exited from a neck without striking anything but soft tissue from the back through the neck, where the missile came from a weapon of the muzzle velocity of 2,000 feet per second, and the victim was in the vicinity of 160 to 250 feet from the weapon?

Dr. Jones. No; I have not seen a missile of this velocity exit in the anterior portion of the neck. I have seen it in other places of the body, but not in the neck.

Mr. Specter. What other places in the body have you seen it, Dr. Jones?

Dr. Jones. I have seen it in the extremity and here it produces a massive amount of soft tissue destruction.

Mr. Specter. Is that in the situation of struck bone or not struck bone or what?

Dr. Jones. Probably where it has struck bone.

Mr. Specter. In a situation where it strikes bone, however, the bone becomes so to speak a secondary missile, does it not, in accentuating the soft tissue damage?

Dr. Jones. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Dr. Jones, did you have any speculative thought as to accounting for the point of wounds which you observed on the President, as you thought about it when you were treating the President that day, or shortly thereafter?

Dr. Jones. With no history as to the number of times that the President had been shot or knowing the direction from which he had been shot, and seeing the wound in the midline of the neck, and what appeared to be an exit wound in the posterior portion of the skull, the only speculation that I could have as far as to how this could occur with a single wound would be that it would enter the anterior neck and possibly strike a vertebral body and then change its course and exit in the region of the posterior portion of the head. However, this was—there was some doubt that a missile that appeared to be of this high velocity would suddenly change its course by striking, but at the present—at that time, if I accounted for it on the basis of one shot, that would have been the way I accounted for it.

Mr. Specter. And would that account take into consideration the extensive damage done to the top of the President's head?

Dr. Jones. If this were the course of the missile, it probably—possibly could have accounted for it, although I would possibly expect it to do a tremendous amount of damage to the vertebral column that it hit and if this were a high velocity missile would also think that the entrance wound would probably be larger than the one that was present at the time we saw it.

Mr. Specter. Did you observe whether or not there was any damage to the vertebral column?

Dr. Jones. No, we could not see this.

Mr. Specter. Did you discuss this theory with any other doctor or doctors?

Dr. Jones. Yes; this was discussed after the assassination.

Mr. Specter. With whom?

Dr. Jones. With Dr. Perry—is the only one that I recall specifically, and that was merely as to how many times the President was shot, because even immediately after death, within a matter of 30 minutes, the possibility of a second gunshot wound was entertained and that possibly he had been shot more than once.

Mr. Specter. Did you observe any wound on the President's back?

Dr. Jones. No.

Mr. Specter. Was the President ever turned over?

Dr. Jones. Not while I was in the room.

Mr. Specter. What was he on when you first saw him?

Dr. Jones. He was on an emergency room cart, which is on wheels and can be changed to varying heights and also varying positions, as far as elevating the head or elevating the feet, lowering the head and so forth.

Mr. Specter. Was he ever taken off that cart from the time he was brought into the emergency room to the time he was pronounced to be dead?

Dr. Jones. No.

Mr. Specter. Doctor, are you working toward board certification at this time?

57 Dr. Jones. Yes.

Mr. Specter. And what is your status on your progress with that, generally?

Dr. Jones. I will finish my formal training in surgery in July of this year, which will complete 5 years of general surgery residency.

Mr. Specter. How old are you at the present time, Dr. Jones?

Dr. Jones. Thirty-one.

Mr. Specter. Have you discussed this matter with any representatives of the Federal Government prior to today?

Dr. Jones. Yes, I believe the Secret Service has been here on at least two occasions.

Mr. Specter. And what did they ask you on those occasions?

Dr. Jones. I think, primarily, to verify that what I had written was true and that I had been one of the first doctors to be in the room with the President.

Mr. Specter. Did they ask you anything else other than that?

Dr. Jones. On one occasion they asked if there were any other pieces of paper that had been written on as to the care that had been administered to the President that I had not turned in, and I told them "No."

Mr. Specter. And did you and I sit down and talk for a few minutes before we went on the record in this deposition, with me indicating to you the general purpose and the line of questioning, and you setting forth the same information which we have put on the record here today?

Dr. Jones. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. Do you have anything to add which you think might be helpful to the Commission in any way?

Dr. Jones. No, sir.

Mr. Specter. That concludes the deposition. Thank you very much, Dr. Jones.

Dr. Jones. All right.

TESTIMONY OF DR. DON TEEL CURTIS

The testimony of Dr. Don Teel Curtis was taken at 9:25 a.m., on March 24, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. Specter. Let the record show that present are Dr. Don Curtis and the court reporter, in connection with the deposition proceeding being conducted by the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy, which is inquiring into all facets of the assassination, including the medical treatment performed for President Kennedy.

Dr. Don Curtis is appearing here this morning in response to a letter requesting him to testify concerning his knowledge of that medical treatment of President Kennedy. With that preliminary statement of the general objective of the Commission and the specific objective of this deposition proceeding, Dr. Curtis, will you rise and raise your right hand, please?

Do you solemnly swear the testimony you give before this Presidential Commission in this deposition proceeding will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Dr. Curtis. I do.

Mr. Specter. Would you state your full name for the record, please?

Dr. Curtis. Dr. Don Teel, T-e-e-l (spelling) Curtis.

Mr. Specter. And what is your occupation or profession?

Dr. Curtis. Oral surgeon.

Mr. Specter. Would you outline briefly your educational background?

Dr. Curtis. I attended my freshman year at Boulder, Colo., Colorado University, 2 subsequent years of undergraduate work at Texas University, 4 years at Baylor Dental College, and I have been interning here for a year and a half.

58 Mr. Specter. What year did you graduate from Baylor Dental College?

Dr. Curtis. 1962.

Mr. Specter. What is your age at the present time?

Dr. Curtis. Twenty-six.

Mr. Specter. And what has your work consisted of here at Parkland Hospital?

Dr. Curtis. I have functioned as an intern in oral surgery and also now am a resident this year in oral surgery.

Mr. Specter. Are you a licensed dentist?

Dr. Curtis. Yes.

Mr. Specter. And when did you obtain that status in the State of Texas?

Dr. Curtis. I think in August of 1962.

Mr. Specter. Did you have occasion to assist in the medical treatment of President John F. Kennedy on November 22, 1963?

Dr. Curtis. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Would you outline briefly the circumstances surrounding your call or your joining in the participation in that medical effort?

Dr. Curtis. I was—do you want me to tell from the time that I got to the emergency room?

Mr. Specter. Yes—how did you happen to get to the emergency room?

Dr. Curtis. I was in our out-patient clinic and saw the President's car, or I saw that it had arrived at the emergency room entrance, and I went over there as a matter of curiosity and was directed into the emergency room and there was directed by a policeman into the room where President Kennedy was.

Mr. Specter. About what time was that?

Dr. Curtis. I don't know—it was shortly after he arrived.

Mr. Specter. Approximately how long after he arrived?

Dr. Curtis. I would say it was within—I would say within a minute after he arrived at the trauma room, although there's no way for me to know that.

Mr. Specter. Who was present in the trauma room at that time?

Dr. Curtis. Dr. Carrico and a nurse, I believe.

Mr. Specter. Do you know the identity of the nurse?

Dr. Curtis. No.

Mr. Specter. What did you observe, if anything, as to the condition of President Kennedy at that time?

Dr. Curtis. I observed that he was in a supine position, with his head extended, and I couldn't see on my arrival—I couldn't see the nature of the wounds, however, Dr. Carrico was standing at the patient's head. Dr. Carrico had just placed an endotracheal tube and I participated in applying the Bird machine respirator into the endotracheal tube for artificial respiration.

Mr. Specter. How does it happen that you would participate to that effect in view of the fact that you are an oral surgeon?

Dr. Curtis. We participate in the emergency room on traumatic injuries of both the face and the entire patient, because the face is hooked onto a patient. We have a tour through anesthesia. We spend time on general anesthesia where we learn management of the patient's airway which makes us, I would say, qualified, for airway management. In our training here at the hospital we many, many times have patients on intravenous infusion and so we are well acquainted with the procedures attendant with the management of I.V. fluids.

Mr. Specter. Is there always someone from oral surgery available at the trauma area?

Dr. Curtis. One of the oral surgeons is on call at the emergency room at all times and we try to stay within a very short distance from the emergency room. We see many patients in the emergency room area.

Mr. Specter. Is that for the purpose of rendering aid for someone who would be injured in a way which would call for an oral surgeon?

Dr. Curtis. Yes—maxillofacial injuries.

Mr. Specter. And in addition, you help out in a general way when there is an emergency situation?

Dr. Curtis. Yes.

59 Mr. Specter. Now, was there anything in President Kennedy's condition which called for the application of your specific specialty?

Dr. Curtis. No; there wasn't.

Mr. Specter. So, you aided in a general way in the treatment of him as an emergency case?

Dr. Curtis. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Now, would you continue to tell me what you have observed with respect to his condition when you first saw him, including what you noted, if anything, with respect to his respiration.

Dr. Curtis. It is very difficult to say whether or not the President was making a respiratory effort, but I'm not sure that he wasn't making a respiratory effort.

Mr. Specter. Do you think that he was making a respiratory effort?

Dr. Curtis. He could have been, and that's as far as I can go on it.

Mr. Specter. Did you observe movements of the chest?

Dr. Curtis. I thought I did.

Mr. Specter. What was his coloring?

Dr. Curtis. He was pink—he wasn't cyanotic when I saw him.

Mr. Specter. And will you explain in lay terms what cyanotic means for the record at this point?

Dr. Curtis. When the hemoglobin of the blood is reduced, it turns a blue color and the patient becomes blue, when a certain percentage of the hemoglobin is reduced. That's not a lay term either, but when the patient is in oxygen need or oxygen want, cyanosis would be apparent.

Mr. Specter. And how does that manifest itself in the patient?

Dr. Curtis. The patient will be a blue, gray, ashen color.

Mr. Specter. What action was Dr. Carrico taking upon your arrival?

Dr. Curtis. He had placed an endotracheal tube in the President's trachea for artificial respiration.

Mr. Specter. Was he doing anything else?

Dr. Curtis. Yes; he was applying the Bird machine.

Mr. Specter. Will you describe what other steps he was taking, if any?

Dr. Curtis. He directed that a tracheotomy setup be brought to the emergency room, and I think it was Dr. Carrico directed me to start the I.V. fluids.

Mr. Specter. And what, if anything, did you do in response to his direction?

Dr. Curtis. I assisted him in fitting the tube from the Bird machine to the endotracheal tube and I assisted in removing some of the President's clothes and did the cutdown on his leg.

Mr. Specter. And what, specifically, did you do pursuant to the cutdown on his leg?

Dr. Curtis. A small incision was made on the ankle and a vein is bluntly dissected free, small holes placed in the vein and a venous catheter is placed in this vein and a purse string ligature is then tied around the catheter at one end, and then the wound was closed with sutures.

Mr. Specter. Now, did you do anything else to the President following that operative procedure?

Dr. Curtis. Then, the initial cutdown that I started was ineffective and infiltrated into the tissues. I think possibly I cut the knot too close of the purse string ligature, so I was getting ready to do another one and it was decided since fluids were going in the other leg, it wouldn't be necessary.

Mr. Specter. What other action did you take, if any, in the treatment of the President?

Dr. Curtis. That's all.

Mr. Specter. Did you remain in the trauma room No. 1?

Dr. Curtis. I did until he was pronounced dead.

Mr. Specter. What action was taken by anyone else in the trauma room while you were there?

Dr. Curtis. My attention was focused on what I was doing, so I wasn't aware—I knew that a cutdown was being performed and that is about all I could see. I mean, I knew that a tracheotomy was being performed.

Mr. Specter. What other doctors were present there at that time?

Dr. Curtis. I know that Dr. Perry was there and I know Dr. Baxter was60 there, and then I recall Dr. Jenkins from the Anesthesia Department, and Dr. Seldin, Dr. Crenshaw, and that's about all the doctors—I could think of others probably, but I can't remember now.

Mr. Specter. Can you identify any other nurses who were there?

Dr. Curtis. No; I can't—I wasn't paying attention to the nurses.

Mr. Specter. During the course of your presence near President Kennedy, did you have any opportunity to observe any wounds on his body?

Dr. Curtis. After I had completed the cutdown, I went around to the right side of the patient and saw the head wound.

Mr. Specter. And what did you observe there?

Dr. Curtis. Oh—fragments of bone and a gross injury to the cranial contents, with copious amounts of hemorrhage.

Mr. Specter. Did you observe any other wound on the President?

Dr. Curtis. No; I didn't. As I said before, I noticed the mass in the pre-tracheal area.

Mr. Specter. And when you say "as you said before," you mean in our previous discussions prior to going on the record here?

Dr. Curtis. Yes.

Mr. Specter. And will you state now for the record what you did notice with respect to the tracheal area?

Dr. Curtis. The President's head was extended or hyperextended and I noticed that in the suprasternal notch there was a mass that looked like a hematoma to me, or a blood clot in the tissues.

Mr. Specter. How big was that hematoma?

Dr. Curtis. Oh, I think it was 5 cm. in size.

Mr. Specter. What color was it?

Dr. Curtis. It had no color—there was just skin overlying it.

Mr. Specter. What did it appear to be?

Dr. Curtis. Probably a hematoma.

Mr. Specter. Did you observe any perforation or hole in the President's throat?

Dr. Curtis. No; I didn't. But that doesn't mean it wasn't there.

Mr. Specter. Did you have an opportunity to look closely for it?

Dr. Curtis. I focused my attention on his neck for an instant, and that's all.

Mr. Specter. Did you hear any discussion among any of the doctors about an opening on his neck?

Dr. Curtis. No; I didn't.

Mr. Specter. Did you make any written report concerning your activity on the President?

Dr. Curtis. No; I didn't.

Mr. Specter. Have you any notes or writings of any sort concerning your work with the President?

Dr. Curtis. No.

Mr. Specter. Have you talked to any representatives of the Federal Government about your participation in treating President Kennedy before today?

Dr. Curtis. No; I haven't.

Mr. Specter. Prior to the time that we went on the record here with the court reporter, did you and I have a very brief conversation concerning the purpose of the deposition and the general questions which I would ask you on the record?

Dr. Curtis. Yes.

Mr. Specter. And is the information which you have provided on the record the same as that which you gave me before the court reporter started taking notes?

Dr. Curtis. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Do you have anything to add which you think would be helpful to the Commission in its work?

Dr. Curtis. No; I don't think so.

Mr. Specter. Thank you very much, Dr. Curtis, for coming here today.

Dr. Curtis. All right.

61

TESTIMONY OF DR. FOUAD A. BASHOUR

The testimony of Dr. Fouad A. Bashour was taken at 1:15 p.m., on March 25, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. Specter. May the record show that Dr. Fouad Bashour has appeared pursuant to a letter of request from the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy, in connection with the Commission's inquiry into all of the factors surrounding the assassination of the President, including medical treatment received at Parkland Hospital, and Dr. Bashour's knowledge, if any, as related to the treatment in the emergency room.

With that preliminary statement of purpose, Dr. Bashour, would you mind rising and then raise your right hand?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give before the President's Commission in this deposition proceeding will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Dr. Bashour. I do.

Mr. Specter. Would you state your full name for the record, please?

Dr. Bashour. F-o-u-a-d (spelling), Fouad A. Bashour.

Mr. Specter. What is your profession, sir?

Mr. Bashour. I am an internist with a specialization in cardiology. I am associate professor of medicine.

Mr. Specter. Are you duly licensed by the State of Texas to practice medicine here?

Dr. Bashour. Yes.

Mr. Specter. And are you board certified at the present time?

Dr. Bashour. No, sir; I don't have my board because I am not yet a citizen. I will be taking my citizenship this year, I hope, and then I will be able to sit for the board.

Mr. Specter. Did you have occasion to assist in the treatment of President Kennedy back on November 22, 1963?

Dr. Bashour. Yes; we were called from the dining room, the doctors' dining room, and we went directly to the President Kennedy room.

Mr. Specter. When you say "we" whom do you mean by that?

Dr. Bashour. Dr. Seldin and myself—we left the dining room and went right straight down to the President's room.

Mr. Specter. And what is Dr. Seldin's first name?

Dr. Bashour. Donald.

Mr. Specter. And what is his specialty, if any?

Dr. Bashour. He's chairman of the department of medicine and professor of medicine. He is a specialist and a recognized famous specialist in renal diseases.

Mr. Specter. And what, in lay language, does that facet of medicine involve?

Dr. Bashour. Kidney diseases.

Mr. Specter. Did Dr. Seldin accompany you into the emergency room where President Kennedy was located?

Dr. Bashour. We went to the room together and then I was left alone because this is a problem—a heart problem.

Mr. Specter. Did Dr. Seldin remain in the room with you?

Dr. Bashour. Well, he came and stayed for—he just left the room after we came in.

Mr. Specter. How long did he stay in the room?

Dr. Bashour. A few seconds.

Mr. Specter. Who was present in the room when you arrived?

Dr. Bashour. When I arrived, Dr. Kemp Clark was doing the cardiac massage on the President, Dr. Jenkins was in charge of controlling artificial respiration of the President, and the probably there were some three or four—I don't remember.

Mr. Specter. And what did you observe the President's condition to be at the time you arrived?

Dr. Bashour. The President was lying on the stretcher, the head wound was62 massive, the blood was dripping from the head, and at that time the President had an endotracheal tube, and his pupils were dilated, his eyes were staring, and they were not reactive, there was no pulsations, his heart sounds were not present, and his extremities were cold.

Then, we attached the scope—the cardioscope and there was a flip, this was probably artificial. Upon stopping the cardiac machine, there was no cardiac activity. That means the heart was standing still. We continued cardiac massage and still there was no cardiac activities, so the President was declared dead shortly thereafter.

Mr. Specter. At approximately what time was he declared dead?

Dr. Bashour. Well, according to my notes, we said here, "Declared dead about 12:55," or so.

Mr. Specter. Was that a precise time fixed or was that just a general approximation?

Dr. Bashour. No, sir; approximation.

Mr. Specter. When you refer to the "flip" what do you mean by that, Dr. Bashour?

Dr. Bashour. On the scope—some change in the baseline of the scope.

Mr. Specter. Did that indicate some activity in the President's heart?

Dr. Bashour. No, sir; not necessarily.

Mr. Specter. What else could have accounted for the flip besides that?

Dr. Bashour. Anything extraneous could have accounted for that.

Mr. Specter. So, you require a number of flips before you inquire if there is heart activity?

Dr. Bashour. Well, it depends on the configuration of the flip—if the flip resembles an electrocardiogram activity—it shows cardiac activity.

Mr. Specter. Was that configuration of the flip like heart activity or not?

Dr. Bashour. It wasn't, as far as I know.

Mr. Specter. That is your field, is it not, you read those flips?

Dr. Bashour. Well, it's my field to see the electrocardiograms; yes.

Mr. Specter. And, in your professional opinion, the flip which you saw was not a conclusive indicator of heart activity?

Dr. Bashour. As a matter of fact, when he removed his hand, there was nothing.

Mr. Specter. And who is "he"?

Dr. Bashour. Dr. Clark, who was doing the cardiac massage.

Mr. Specter. What else was done to the President, if anything, in addition to those things you have already mentioned after you arrived on the scene?

Dr. Bashour. Really, as far as I know, it was the end of the scene—nothing was done afterward.

Mr. Specter. Did you observe any wound besides the head wound which you have just described?

Dr. Bashour. No; I did not observe any wounds.

Mr. Specter. What was the condition of the front part of the President's neck upon your arrival?

Dr. Bashour. The only thing—it was covered with the endotracheal tube—I did not really pay attention to it.

Mr. Specter. Did you have an opportunity to see the neck wound before the tracheotomy was performed?

Dr. Bashour. No; I came after everything was done to him.

Mr. Specter. Doctor, I show you a group of papers heretofore marked as "Commission Exhibit No. 392," and I call your attention to the photostatic copy of a sheet which purports to be a report made by you on November 22, 1963, at 4:45 p.m., is that your report?

Dr. Bashour. Yes.

Mr. Specter. And is that in fact your signature?

Dr. Bashour. Yes.

Mr. Specter. And are the facts set forth therein the essence of what you observed and what you know about this matter?

Dr. Bashour. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Have you talked to anyone from the Federal Government prior to today about your treatment of President Kennedy?

63 Dr. Bashour. There was a security officer or something called me on the phone one day and said did I write any note besides this note on the chart, and I said "No." I don't know his name even.

Mr. Specter. What note was he referring to?

Dr. Bashour. This note here.

Mr. Specter. He asked you if you wrote what?

Dr. Bashour. Other notes than this.

Mr. Specter. If you had any other notes?

Dr. Bashour. Yes.

Mr. Specter. And do you have any other notes other than the one I have just shown you?

Dr. Bashour. No.

Mr. Specter. Did the Secret Service agent ask you anything else other than that?

Dr. Bashour. No.

Mr. Specter. And did you talk to any other representative of the Federal Government on any occasion prior to today?

Dr. Bashour. No, sir.

Mr. Specter. And, did you and I talk for a few minutes about the type of questions I would be asking you during this deposition?

Dr. Bashour. Yes.

Mr. Specter. And is the information which you have given me on the record here and written down by the court reporter the same as you told me before she arrived?

Dr. Bashour. Yes.

Mr. Specter. And, will you give me just an outline of your educational background, Doctor?

Dr. Bashour. I got my baccalaureate from French Government in 1941—first part. I got my second part, baccalaureate in mathematics and science in 1942, I got my B.A. degree in 1944 from the American University of Beirut, my M.D. degree in 1949, and my Ph. D. in 1957 from the University of Minnesota. I came back to this country in 1959 from the American University of Beirut, as an instructor, and from 1959 to 1963 I jumped from instructor to assistant professor to associate professor in February 1963.

Mr. Specter. Do you have anything to add which you think will be helpful in any way to the President's Commission?

Dr. Bashour. No, sir.

Mr. Specter. Thank you very much for coming, Dr. Bashour.

Dr. Bashour. Thank you very much.

TESTIMONY OF DR. GENE COLEMAN AKIN

The testimony of Dr. Gene Coleman Akin was taken at 11:30 a.m., on March 25, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. Specter. May the record show that Dr. Gene Akin is present in response to a letter request that he appear to have his deposition taken in connection with an inquiry being conducted by the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy. Dr. Akin is being asked to appear here today to testify concerning his knowledge, if any, about the condition of President Kennedy on arrival in Parkland Hospital and his treatment here.

With that preliminary statement of purpose, Dr. Akin, will you rise and raise your right hand, please?

Do you solemnly swear the testimony you shall give before the President's Commission in this deposition proceeding will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Dr. Akin. I do.

64 Mr. Specter. Will you state your full name, please?

Dr. Akin. Gene Coleman Akin.

Mr. Specter. What is your profession?

Dr. Akin. Medicine.

Mr. Specter. Are you duly licensed to practice in Texas, to practice medicine?

Dr. Akin. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Do you have any specialty?

Dr. Akin. Anesthesiology.

Mr. Specter. And are you board-certified?

Dr. Akin. No.

Mr. Specter. Are you working toward board-certification?

Dr. Akin. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Would you outline briefly your educational background?

Dr. Akin. Premedical school at University of Texas in Austin, medical school, Southwestern Medical School Branch of the University of Texas, internship, Dallas Methodist Hospital, and anesthesiology residence at Parkland Memorial Hospital, starting in July 1962.

Mr. Specter. And, in what year did you graduate from medical school?

Dr. Akin. 1961.

Mr. Specter. And how old are you at the present time, Doctor?

Dr. Akin. Thirty-four.

Mr. Specter. Did you have occasion to render assistance to President John F. Kennedy on November 22, 1963?

Dr. Akin. Briefly.

Mr. Specter. Would you state how you came to be called into the case?

Dr. Akin. I was notified while I was on duty in the operating suite of the hospital that anesthesia assistance was needed in the emergency room. President Kennedy supposedly had been shot and had been brought to the emergency room, and I immediately went down the back elevator to the emergency room to see if I could be of assistance, and when I walked in, a tracheotomy was being performed. President Kennedy still had an endotracheal tube, an oro-tracheal tube in place, and the connector from this to the Bird respirator was removed. The anesthesia machine had been simultaneously rolled into the room and Dr. Jenkins connected the anesthesia machine to the oro-tracheal tube and it stayed there for a brief period, until the tracheotomy tube was placed in the tracheotomy, at which time I connected the breathing tubes from the anesthesia machine to the tracheotomy and held this in place while Dr. Jenkins controlled the ventilation with 100-percent oxygen from the anesthesia machine.

Mr. Specter. Did you assist Dr. Jenkins then in his work?

Dr. Akin. Only insofar as I held the endotracheal connector in place into the tracheotomy tube.

Mr. Specter. What doctors in addition to Dr. Jenkins then were present, if any, at the time of your arrival?

Dr. Akin. You mean everybody in the room? I don't know that I can name all of them.

Mr. Specter. Name as many as you can, if you will, please?

Dr. Akin. There was Dr. Jenkins, there was myself for a brief period, there was Dr. Giesecke, Dr. Jackie Hunt—they left shortly after arriving. I heard later that they had gone across the hall to Governor Connally's room to assist him; Dr. Malcolm Perry, Dr. Charles Baxter, Dr. Kemp Clark, Dr. Bob McClelland, Dr. James Carrico, Dr. Ron Jones, was there. I think, shortly after I arrived, and Dr. Fouad Bashour came in from cardiology; Dr. Don Seldin walked in briefly, I can't remember the team that worked on the cutdowns on the legs—I can't remember that. This is sort of hazy, because it was a couple of days later we went through the same business over again and I am liable to say that there was somebody there that worked on Kennedy that actually had worked on Oswald, because I was on the Oswald mess too. This is all that I remember were positively there. I remember their being there, but there were others that I am not sure of.

Mr. Specter. What did you observe as to the President's condition?

Dr. Akin. He looked moribund in my medical judgment.

65 Mr. Specter. Did you observe any wounds on him at the time you first saw him?

Dr. Akin. There was a midline neck wound below the level of the cricoid cartilage, about 1 to 1.5 cm. in diameter, the lower part of this had been cut across when I saw the wound, it had been cut across with a knife in the performance of the tracheotomy. The back of the right occipitalparietal portion of his head was shattered, with brain substance extruding.

Mr. Specter. Returning to the wound which you first described, can you state in any more detail the appearance of it at the time you first saw it?

Dr. Akin. I don't think I could—this is about all I noticed. I noticed this wound very briefly and it was a matter of academics as to how he sustained the wound. My attention, because of my standing on the right side of the patient who was lying supine, my attention was very soon directed to the head wound, and this was my major concern.

Mr. Specter. And as to the neck wound, did you have occasion to observe whether there was a smooth, jagged, or what was the nature of the portion of the neck wound, which had not been cut by the tracheotomy?

Dr. Akin. It was slightly ragged around the edges.

Mr. Specter. And when you said that——

Dr. Akin. No powder burns; I didn't notice any powder burns.

Mr. Specter. What was the dimension of the punctate wound, without regards to the tracheotomy which was being started?

Dr. Akin. It looked—it was as you said, it was a punctate wound. It was roughly circular, about, I would judge, 1.5 cm. in diameter.

Mr. Specter. What did you mean when you just made your reference to the academic aspect with the wound, Dr. Akin?

Dr. Akin. Well, naturally, the thought flashed through my mind that this might have been an entrance wound. I immediately thought it could also have been an exit wound, depending upon the nature of the missile that made the wound.

Mr. Specter. What would be the circumstances on which it might be one or the other?

Dr. Akin. Well, if the President had been shot with a low velocity missile, such as fire from a pistol, it was more likely to have been an entrance wound, is that what you mean?

Mr. Specter. Yes.

Dr. Akin. If, however, he had been shot with a high velocity military type of rifle, for example, it could be either an entrance wound or an exit wound.

Mr. Specter. Why do you say it could be either an entrance wound or an exit wound with respect to the rifle?

Dr. Akin. Well, because a high velocity missile coming from a military rifle, especially if the missile were a jacketed missile, a copper- or steel-jacketed missile, itself, the missile itself is not distorted when it passes through soft tissue, and the wound made when the bullet leaves the body, is a small wound, much like the wound of entrance, but like I said, I didn't devote much time to conjecture about this.

Mr. Specter. How much experience have you had, if any, on gunshot wounds, doctor?

Dr. Akin. I can't really give you, say, how many cases a week I see of this. Most of my experience with this is in an anesthetic situation with patients coming into the hospital, having sustained gunshot injuries, most of them are injured with low velocity missiles, smaller caliber—.22 caliber to .38 caliber, and most of them are not injured in a through and through fashion. In other words, I don't see too many exit wounds, the bullets are slow moving, and they enter the body and don't leave it. They usually stay in it, so consequently I could not be considered an expert in exit wounds.

Mr. Specter. Is that the general line of bullet wounds which come into Parkland Hospital, would you say?

Dr. Akin. What I have just described, you mean?

Mr. Specter. Yes.

Dr. Akin. Yes; I think so. Most of the people seem to be shot with cheap ammunition fired out of inferior weapons.

66 Mr. Specter. Would your experience with the type of bullet wounds you have just described be about the same as the other doctors have here at Parkland, or would there be some difference between what you have seen on bullet wounds and what the other doctors have seen?

Dr. Akin. I think so, except there is one difference—I am not ordinarily on duty in the emergency room, so I am not very often the first doctor to see one of these people injured in this fashion. When I see them they are people who have sustained a gunshot injury, but who lived to make it to the operating room. We, I'm sure, have a lot of people who are shot and who are dead on arrival at the emergency room, and they are examined by the emergency room physicians, and I never see them, so there would be a lot of people down there that I never have seen. They might be injured with a hunting rifle or a good quality ammunition, and I would not have seen them.

Mr. Specter. Dr. Akin, permit me, if you will, to give you a set of facts which I will ask you to assume for the purpose of giving me an opinion, if you are able to formulate one. Assume that the President was struck by a 6.5 mm. missile which had a muzzle velocity of approximately 2,000 feet per second at a time when the President was approximately 160 to 250 feet away from the weapon. Assume further that the bullet entered the President's body in the upper right posterior thorax just above the upper border of the scapula at a point 14 cm. from the tip of the right acromion process and 14 cm. below the tip of the right mastoid process. Assume further that the missile traveled through or in between, rather, the strap muscles without penetrating either muscle but going in between the two in the area of his back and traveled through the fascial channel without violating the pleura cavity, and that the bullet struck the side of the trachea and exited from the throat in the position of the punctate wound which you have described you saw, would the wound you saw be consistent with a wound of exit under the factors that I have just outlined to you?

Dr. Akin. As far as I know, it is perfectly compatible from what you have described, except when you say it passed through without injuring the strap muscles, are you talking about the anterior strap muscles of the neck or are you talking about the posterior muscles of the neck?

Mr. Specter. The anterior strap muscles of the neck.

Dr. Akin. It's a matter of clarification because there are no strap muscles posterior, by my terminology. Yes, this is perfectly consistent with what I know about, or what I have been told by military experts, concerning high velocity missile injuries.

Mr. Specter. And what is the basis of your information from the military experts you just referred to?

Dr. Akin. Military rifle demonstrations when I was a senior student at Brooks Air Force Base in San Antonio. We took a brief two day tour there with demonstrations of high velocity missile injury.

Mr. Specter. With respect to the head wound, Dr. Akin, did you observe below the gaping wound which you have described any other bullet wound in the back of the head?

Dr. Akin. No; I didn't. I could not see the back of the President's head as such, and the right posterior neck was obscured by blood and skull fragments and I didn't make any attempt to examine the neck.

Mr. Specter. Did you have any opportunity to observe the President's clothes?

Dr. Akin. I noticed them.

Mr. Specter. With respect to examining the shirt, for example, to see what light that would shed, if any, on the trajectory of the bullet?

Dr. Akin. No; I didn't. The front of the chest was uncovered, the pants had been loosened and lowered below the iliac crest, and the only article of clothing I noticed in particular was his back corset.

Mr. Specter. What did you observe with respect to the back corset which you just mentioned?

Dr. Akin. It had been loosened and was just lying loose.

Mr. Specter. Can you describe the corset, indicating how wide it was?

Dr. Akin. The only portion I saw was the front portion of the corset and67 it was about, I'd say, 5 or 6 inches in width, and made out of some white heavy fabric with the usual straps and buckles.

Mr. Specter. Did you notice any Ace bandage strapping the President's buttocks area?

Dr. Akin. No.

Mr. Specter. Was that area of his anatomy visible to you?

Dr. Akin. Not his buttocks, he was lying supine.

Mr. Specter. Was President Kennedy ever turned over, to your knowledge?

Dr. Akin. Not while I was there.

Mr. Specter. And how long were you there altogether, Dr. Akin?

Dr. Akin. Oh, probably 15, maybe 20—perhaps 20 minutes.

Mr. Specter. Were you present when he was pronounced to be dead?

Dr. Akin. Yes—I didn't leave until Dr. Clark and Dr. Jenkins had mutually agreed that nothing else could be done.

Mr. Specter. What time was he pronounced dead?

Dr. Akin. 1300 hours.

Mr. Specter. And what, in your opinion, was the cause of death?

Dr. Akin. Massive gunshot injury to the brain—primary cause.

Mr. Specter. You have already described some of the treatment which was performed on the President; could you supplement that by describing what else was done for the President?

Dr. Akin. Other than the placement of chest tubes, artificial respiration, brief external cardiac massage—I don't know. Anything else I said would be hearsay, and I understand that he did receive some cortisone. He received so much Ringer's lactate, but this is not of my own personal knowledge.

Mr. Specter. How many bullets were involved in the wounds inflicted on the President, Dr. Akin?

Dr. Akin. Probably two.

Mr. Specter. Have you ever changed any of your original opinions in connection with your observations of the President or any opinions you formed in connection with what you saw?

Dr. Akin. You mean as to how he was injured?

Mr. Specter. Yes, as to how he was injured.

Dr. Akin. Well, no; not really because I didn't have any opinions, necessarily. Any speculation that I might have done about how he was injured was just that, it was just speculation. I didn't form an opinion until it was revealed where he was when he was injured and where the alleged assassin was when he fired the shots, so I didn't have any opinions. It was my immediate assumption that when I saw the extent of the head wound, I assumed at that point that he had probably been hit in the head with a high velocity missile because of the damage that had been done. The same thing happened to his head and would happen to a sealed can of sauerkraut that you hit with a high velocity missile.

Mr. Specter. Did you have any opinion as to the direction that the bullet hit his head?

Dr. Akin. I assume that the right occipitalparietal region was the exit, so to speak, that he had probably been hit on the other side of the head, or at least tangentially in the back of the head, but I didn't have any hard and fast opinions about that either.

Mr. Specter. Have you been interviewed by any representative of the Federal Government prior to today?

Dr. Akin. You mean concerning this matter?

Mr. Specter. Concerning this matter.

Dr. Akin. I think I was probably interviewed by a member of the Secret Service some weeks ago.

Mr. Specter. What did you say to him?

Dr. Akin. Virtually the same thing, as I recall—I didn't make as long a statement, he just wanted to know where I was and what I did and I told him briefly and that seemed to satisfy him.

Mr. Specter. And is that the only time you have been interviewed by any representative of the Federal Government concerning this matter prior to today?

68 Dr. Akin. Yes; as far as I can remember.

Mr. Specter. And before I started to take your deposition, did you and I have a very brief discussion about the nature of the deposition and the questions I would ask you?

Dr. Akin. Yes.

Mr. Specter. And did you give me about the same information, exactly the same information you have put on the record here this morning?

Dr. Akin. To my knowledge; yes.

Mr. Specter. Do you have anything to add which you think might be of assistance to the President's Commission in their inquiry?

Dr. Akin. No; I don't think so. I don't know exactly if there is any disagreement or discrepancy in the testimony from the various people who have testified, so I don't know. This is all I saw.

Mr. Specter. That's fine. Thank you very much, Dr. Akin.

Dr. Akin. That's all right, thank you.

TESTIMONY OF DR. PAUL CONRAD PETERS

The testimony of Dr. Paul Conrad Peters was taken at 4 p.m., on March 24, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. Specter. May the record show that Dr. Paul Peters is present, having responded to a request to have his deposition taken in connection with the investigation of the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy, which is investigating all aspects of the assassination, including the medical treatment of President Kennedy at Parkland Memorial Hospital, and for the latter sequence of events we have asked Dr. Peters to appear and testify what he knows, if anything, concerning that medical attention.

With that statement of purpose in calling you, Dr. Peters, may I ask you to rise and raise your right hand?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give before the President's Commission in this deposition proceeding will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Dr. Peters. I do.

Mr. Specter. Now, will you state your full name for the record, please?

Dr. Peters. Paul Conrad Peters.

Mr. Specter. And what is your profession, sir?

Dr. Peters. Doctor of medicine.

Mr. Specter. And will you outline for me briefly your educational background?

Dr. Peters. I went to college at Indiana University in Bloomington, Ind., and received an A.B. degree from Indiana University in 1950, and received an M.D. degree from Indiana University in 1953. I took my internship at the Philadelphia General Hospital, 1953 and 1954. I took my residency in Urological Surgery at Indiana University from 1954 to 1957, and from 1957 to 1963 I was chief of Urology at U.S.A.F. Hospital, Carswell, which is the largest hospital in SAC, and I was regional consultant to the surgeon general in Urological surgery. Since July 1963, I have been assistant professor of Urology at Southwestern Medical School.

Mr. Specter. And are you board certified, Dr. Peters?

Dr. Peters. I am certified by the American Board of Urology—1960.

Mr. Specter. Did you have occasion to render medical services to President John Kennedy on November 22, 1963?

Dr. Peters. Yes.

Mr. Specter. And would you outline briefly the circumstances relating to your arriving on the scene where he was?

Dr. Peters. As I just gave you a while ago?

Mr. Specter. Yes.

69 Dr. Peters. I was in the adjacent portion of the hospital preparing material for a lecture to the medical students and residents later in the day, when I heard over the radio that the President had been shot and there was a great deal of confusion at the time and the extent of his injuries was not immediately broadcast over the radio, and I thought, because of the description of the location of the tragedy he would probably be brought to Parkland for care, and so I went to the emergency room to see if I could render assistance.

Mr. Specter. And at about what time did you arrive at the emergency room?

Dr. Peters. Well, could I ask a question or two?

Mr. Specter. Sure.

Dr. Peters. As I recall, he was shot about 12:35 our time; is that correct?

Mr. Specter. I believe that's been fixed most precisely at 12:30, Dr. Peters.

Dr. Peters. So, I would estimate it was probably about 12:50 when I got there, I really don't know for certain.

Mr. Specter. Whom did you find present, if anyone, when you arrived?

Dr. Peters. When I arrived the following people I noted were present in the room: Drs. Perry, Baxter, Ron Jones, and McClelland. The first thing I noticed, of course, was that President Kennedy was on the stretcher and that his feet were slightly elevated. He appeared to be placed in a position in which we usually treat a patient who is in shock, and I noticed that Dr. Perry and Dr. Baxter were present and that they were working on his throat. I also noticed that Dr. Ron Jones was present in the room. I took off my coat and asked what I could do to help, and then saw it was President Kennedy. I really didn't know it was President Kennedy until that time. Dr. Perry was there and he and Dr. Baxter were doing the tracheotomy and we asked for a set of tracheotomy tubes to try and get one of the appropriate size. I then helped Dr. Baxter assemble the tracheotomy tube which he inserted into the tracheotomy wound that he and Dr. Perry had created.

Mr. Specter. Were there any others present at that time, before you go on as to what aid you rendered?

Dr. Peters. I believe Dr. Carrico——

Mr. Specter. Any other doctors present?

Dr. Peters. And Dr. Jenkins was present.

Mr. Specter. Have you now covered all of those who were present at that time?

Dr. Peters. And Dr. Shaw walked into the room and left—for a moment—but he didn't stay. He just sort of glanced at the President and went across the hall. Mrs. Kennedy was in the corner with someone who identified himself as the personal physician of the President—I don't remember his name.

Mr. Specter. Dr. Burkley?

Dr. Peters. I don't know his name. That's just who he said he was, because he was asking that the President be given some steroids, which was done.

Mr. Specter. He requested that.

Dr. Peters. That's right, he said he should have some steroids because he was an Addisonian.

Mr. Specter. What do you mean by that in lay language?

Dr. Peters. Well, Addison's disease is a disease of the adrenal cortex which is characterized by a deficiency in the elaboration of certain hormones that allow an individual to respond to stress and these hormones are necessary for life, and if they cannot be replaced, the individual may succumb.

Mr. Specter. And Dr. Burkley, or whoever was the President's personal physician, made a request that you treat him as an Addisonian?

Dr. Peters. That's right—he recommended that he be given steroids because he was an Addisonian—that's what he said.

Mr. Specter. Were there any nurses present at that time?

Dr. Peters. I don't remember a nurse being in the room all the time, but they were coming in and out.

Mr. Specter. Have you identified all the people who were present to the best of your recollection?

Dr. Peters. Did I mention Dr. Robert McClelland, he was also there.

Mr. Specter. Was Dr. Dulany there?

Dr. Peters. I don't remember him, he may have been.

70 Mr. Specter. Who else was there, if anyone, that you can recall, or have you now given me everyone you can recall?

Dr. Peters. Well, I am giving you my impression of the situation as I walked in and those are the ones I remember right now. Dr. Kemp Clark also came in during the maneuvering.

Mr. Specter. Well, who else came in during the course of the operative procedures?

Dr. Peters. The anesthesiologists, Drs. Jenkins and Gene Akin, I believe, came in.

Mr. Specter. Did anyone else come in?

Dr. Peters. I am not certain of anyone else.

Mr. Specter. Now, tell us what aid was rendered to President Kennedy.

Dr. Peters. Dr. Perry and Dr. Baxter were doing the tracheotomy and a set of tracheotomy tubes was obtained and the appropriate size was determined and I gave it to Baxter, who helped Perry put it into the wound, and Perry noted also that there appeared to be a bubbling sensation in the chest and recommended that chest tubes be put in. Dr. Ron Jones put a chest tube in on the left side and Dr. Baxter and I put it in on the right side—I made the incision in the President's chest, and I noted that there was no bleeding from the wound.

Mr. Specter. Did you put that chest tube all the way in on the right side?

Dr. Peters. That's our presumption—yes.

Mr. Specter. And what else was done for the President?

Dr. Peters. About the same time—there was a question of whether he really had an adequate pulse, and so Dr. Ronald Jones and I pulled his pants down and noticed that he was wearing his brace which had received a lot of publicity in the lay press, and also that he had an elastic bandage wrapped around his pelvis at—in a sort of a figure eight fashion, so as to encompass both thighs and the lower trunk.

Mr. Specter. What was the purpose of that bandage?

Dr. Peters. I presume that it was—my thoughts at the time were that he probably had been having pelvic pain and had put this on as an additional support to stabilize his lower pelvis. It seemed quite interesting to me that the President of the United States had on an ordinary $3 Ace bandage probably in an effort to stabilize his pelvis. I suppose he had been having some back pain and that was my thought at the time, but we removed this bandage in an effort to feel a femoral pulse. We were never certain that we got a good pulse.

Mr. Specter. Would you describe in as much detail as you can the type of brace he was wearing?

Dr. Peters. Well, it appeared similar to a corset.

Mr. Specter. How thick was it?

Dr. Peters. I would estimate it was one-eighth of an inch.

Mr. Specter. An eighth of an inch thick?

Dr. Peters. Yes.

Mr. Specter. And how high was it?

Dr. Peters. Well, it completely encompassed his midsection.

Mr. Specter. It encompassed his midsection?

Dr. Peters. His circumference—yes—and it was probably, I would guess about 8 to 11 inches.

Mr. Specter. In width?

Dr. Peters. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Running in his waist area at the top of his hips up to the lower part of his chest?

Dr. Peters. I would estimate that it went from the lower part of his chest to the pelvic girdle. About this time it was noted also that he had no effective heart action, and Dr. Perry asked whether he should open the chest and massage the heart. In the meantime, of course, the tracheotomy had been done and completed and had been hooked on to apparatus for assisting his respiration.

Mr. Specter. And what action, if any, was taken on the open-heart massage?

Dr. Peters. It was pointed out that an examination of the brain had been done. Dr. Jenkins had observed the brain and Dr. Clark had observed the brain and it was pointed out to Dr. Perry that it appeared to be a mortal wound, and71 involving the brain, and that open-heart massage would probably not add anything to what had already been done, and that external cardiac massage is known to be as efficient as direct massage of the heart itself.

Mr. Specter. Was there any further treatment rendered to the President?

Dr. Peters. Yes, Dr. Perry began immediate external compression of the chest in an effort to massage the heart, even before he asked the question as to whether the thoracotomy should be done. As soon as there was a question as to whether there was a pulse or not, he immediately began external chest compression.

Mr. Specter. What other action was taken to aid the President, if any?

Dr. Peters. Well, cut downs were done on the extremities, and tubes were inserted in the veins, and I know on the right ankle anteriorly, and I believe in the left arm and also in the left leg, in order to administer fluid and blood which he did receive.

Mr. Specter. Have you now described all of the medical attention given the President?

Dr. Peters. Well, I believe I have.

Mr. Specter. And was the President subsequently pronounced dead?

Dr. Peters. That's correct.

Mr. Specter. And about what time was that pronouncement made?

Dr. Peters. I could not give you the time within 5 or 10 minutes—I can tell you this much, though, I know what actually did happen.

Mr. Specter. Tell me that.

Dr. Peters. I was—we pronounced him dead and I was in the room, present while the priest gave him the last rites, during which time there was Dr. Jenkins and Dr. Baxter and Dr. McClelland, Mrs. Kennedy, the priest, and myself. Dr. Perry had left, as had most of the others by that time.

Mr. Specter. Why did you remain?

Dr. Peters. Well, I just hadn't gotten out of the door when the priest first came in and Dr. Jenkins asked everyone to leave except those people I have just named.

Mr. Specter. Why did he exclude those from the group which were to leave?

Dr. Peters. Well, I think they were nurses, and several other people he thought just best not remain and I'm sure that there was no intention to personally exclude anyone behind his request. He just sort of looked around and saw who appeared to be there and asked the others to leave.

Mr. Specter. What did you observe as to the nature of the President's wound?

Dr. Peters. Well, as I mentioned, the neck wound had already been interfered with by the tracheotomy at the time I got there, but I noticed the head wound, and as I remember—I noticed that there was a large defect in the occiput.

Mr. Specter. What did you notice in the occiput?

Dr. Peters. It seemed to me that in the right occipitalparietal area that there was a large defect. There appeared to be bone loss and brain loss in the area.

Mr. Specter. Did you notice any holes below the occiput, say, in this area below here?

Dr. Peters. No, I did not and at the time and the moments immediately following the injury, we speculated as to whether he had been shot once or twice because we saw the wound of entry in the throat and noted the large occipital wound, and it is a known fact that high velocity missiles often have a small wound of entrance and a large wound of exit, and I'm just giving you my honest impressions at the time.

Mr. Specter. What were they?

Dr. Peters. Well, I wondered whether or not he had been shot once or twice—that was my question at the time.

Mr. Specter. When you say "we speculate," whom do you mean by that?

Dr. Peters. Well, the doctors in attendance there.

Mr. Specter. Any doctor specifically?

Dr. Peters. I wouldn't mention anyone specifically, we all discussed it. I did not know whether or not he had been shot once or twice.

72 Mr. Specter. Did you have an opportunity to observe the wound on his neck prior to the time the tracheotomy was performed?

Dr. Peters. No, I did not. The tracheotomy was already being done by Dr. Baxter and Dr. Perry when I got in the room. I did not see the wound on his neck.

Mr. Specter. Did you make any written reports on the treatment of President Kennedy?

Dr. Peters. No, I did not; no one asked me to.

Mr. Specter. Did you prepare any notes of any sort, or do you have any notes of any sort?

Dr. Peters. No; I do not.

Mr. Specter. What was the cause of death in your opinion?

Dr. Peters. I would assume that it was irreversible damage to the centers in the brain which control the heart and respiration.

Mr. Specter. Have you talked to any representatives of the Federal Government about this matter prior to today?

Dr. Peters. No; I have not.

Mr. Specter. And prior to the time the court reporter came in, did you and I have a brief discussion as to the nature of this deposition and the questions that I would ask you?

Dr. Peters. No; I was not informed as to any specific questions. I knew the general nature of the testimony which I would give.

Mr. Specter. From the discussion?

Dr. Peters. From the letter I had received from the counsel signed by Mr. Rankin.

Mr. Specter. And did you and I have a brief conversation here in this room today before the court reporter came in?

Dr. Peters. Yes; we did.

Mr. Specter. Do you have anything to add which you think might be of assistance to the President's Commission in its investigation?

Dr. Peters. I do not—regarding the immediate condition of the President.

Mr. Specter. Thank you very much for coming, Dr. Peters, we are very much obliged to you.

Dr. Peters. Thank you.

TESTIMONY OF DR. ADOLPH HARTUNG GIESECKE, JR.

The testimony of Dr. Adolph Hartung Giesecke, Jr., was taken at 1:40 p.m., on March 25, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the Presidents Commission.

Mr. Specter. May the record show that Dr. A. H. Giesecke, Jr., is present in response to a letter request from the Commission to appear at this deposition proceeding in connection with the President's Commission to Investigate the Assassination of President Kennedy, including his medical treatment at Parkland Hospital.

Dr. Giesecke has been asked to appear to testify about his knowledge of the treatment that President Kennedy and Governor Connally received at Parkland Hospital on November 22, and with that preliminary statement of purpose and objective, would you please stand up, Dr. Giesecke, and raise your right hand?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give before this President's Commission in these deposition proceedings will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Dr. Giesecke. Yes; I do.

Mr. Specter. Will you state your full name, please, for the record?

Dr. Giesecke. Adolph Hartung Giesecke, Jr. H-a-r-t-u-n-g (spelling).

Mr. Specter. What is your profession?

Dr. Giesecke. I am a physician and anesthesiologist.

73 Mr. Specter. Are you duly licensed to practice medicine in the State of Texas?

Dr. Giesecke. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Are you board-certified?

Dr. Giesecke. No, sir.

Mr. Specter. Are you working for board-certification?

Dr. Giesecke. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Will you outline briefly your educational background, please?

Dr. Giesecke. I graduated—how far back do you want me to go?

Mr. Specter. Start with college, graduation from college, if you would, please.

Dr. Giesecke. I was on an accelerated plan through the University of Texas but have no college degree. I matriculated to medical school in 1953, September 1953, graduated May 30, 1957, from the University of Texas Medical Branch at Galveston, Tex. I did my internship at William Beaumont Army Hospital at El Paso, following which I served 24 months on active duty in the Army as an aviation medical officer. I was stationed primarily at the Presidio at San Francisco, Calif. Upon discharge from the Army, I came to Parkland Hospital, completed a 3-year residency in anesthesiology in July 1963. Since that time I have been an assistant professor on the anesthesiology staff at Southwestern Medical School.

Mr. Specter. Did you have occasion to render medical attention to President Kennedy on November 22, 1963?

Dr. Giesecke. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Will you outline the circumstances under which you were called into that matter?

Dr. Giesecke. I was eating lunch in the cafeteria when Dr. Jenkins approached the table and told me that the President had been shot and asked me to bring some resuscitative equipment from the operating room to the emergency room, which I did.

Mr. Specter. And at what time did you arrive at the emergency room, approximately?

Dr. Giesecke. Can I look and see when I induced the Governor?

Mr. Specter. Yes. May the record show that Dr. Giesecke is now referring to a letter from A. H. Giesecke, Jr., M.D., to Mr. C. J. Price, administrator, dated November 25, 1963, which I will ask the reporter to mark as "Dr. Giesecke's Exhibit No. 1."

(Instrument referred to marked by the reporter as "Dr. Giesecke Exhibit No. 1," for identification.)

Mr. Specter. Let me ask you a question or two, first about this, Dr. Giesecke, to qualify—is this a copy of the report which you submitted to Mr. Price?

Dr. Giesecke. Yes, that is a real copy.

Mr. Specter. And all the facts contained in this report are true and correct?

Dr. Giesecke. Yes.

Mr. Specter. And do they concern the treatment which was rendered by you to President Kennedy and Governor Connally?

Dr. Giesecke. That's correct.

Mr. Specter. Now, refer to that if you wish, if it will help you answer the last question.

Dr. Giesecke. I arrived in the emergency room at 12:40 p.m., between 12:40 and 12:45.

Mr. Specter. And who was present at the time you arrived?

Dr. Giesecke. Dr. Jenkins was present, Dr. Carrico, Dr. Dulany, Dr. Baxter, Dr. Perry, Dr. McClelland, and Drs. Akin and Hunt arrived at the same time that I did.

Mr. Specter. Were there any other people present, such as nurses?

Dr. Giesecke. Mrs. Kennedy was in the room—I could not say—I can't say who else was there. There may have been a nurse there, I just don't remember. It seemed to me there was a Secret Service man there too, with Mrs. Kennedy.

Mr. Specter. Are you sure Dr. Dulany was there, as distinguished from being with Governor Connally?

74 Dr. Giesecke. Perhaps—perhaps—I'm shaky on that.

Mr. Specter. The reason I asked you about that specifically is because Dr. Carriro testified this morning that he and Dr. Dulany were on duty and Dr. Dulany went immediately with Governor Connally and Dr. Carrico went to President Kennedy.

Dr. Giesecke. That may well be.

Mr. Specter. What was the condition of the President when you arrived?

Dr. Giesecke. There was a great deal of blood loss which was apparent when he came in the room—the cart was covered with blood and there was a great deal of blood on the floor. There was—I could see no spontaneous motion on the part of the President. In other words, he made no movement during the time that I was in the room. As I moved around towards the head of the emergency cart with the anesthesia machine and the resuscitative equipment and helped Dr. Jenkins to hook the anesthesia machine up to the President to give him oxygen, I noticed that he had a very large cranial wound, with loss of brain substance, and it seemed that most of the bleeding was coming from the cranial wound.

Mr. Specter. What did you observe specifically as to the nature of the cranial wound?

Dr. Giesecke. It seemed that from the vertex to the left ear, and from the browline to the occiput on the left-hand side of the head the cranium was entirely missing.

Mr. Specter. Was that the left-hand side of the head, or the right-hand side of the head?

Dr. Giesecke. I would say the left, but this is just my memory of it.

Mr. Specter. That's your recollection?

Dr. Giesecke. Right, like I say, I was there a very short time—really.

Mr. Specter. Did you observe any other wound or bullet hole below the large area of missing skull?

Dr. Giesecke. No; when I arrived the tracheotomy was in progress at that time and so I observed no other wound except the one on the cranium.

Mr. Specter. On the cranium itself, did you observe another bullet hole below the portion of missing skull?

Dr. Giesecke. No, sir; this was found later by Dr. Clark—I didn't see this.

Mr. Specter. What makes you say that that hole was found later by Dr. Clark?

Dr. Giesecke. Well, this is hearsay—I wasn't there when they found it and I didn't notice it.

Mr. Specter. Well, Dr. Clark didn't observe that hole.

Dr. Giesecke. Oh, he didn't—I'm sorry.

Mr. Specter. From whom did you hear that the hole had been observed, if you recollect?

Dr. Giesecke. Oh—I must be confused. We talked to so many people about these things—I don't remember.

Mr. Specter. Now, with respect to the condition of the President's neck, what was its status at the time you first observed it?

Dr. Giesecke. Well, like I say, they were performing the tracheotomy, and I personally saw no wound in the neck other than the tracheotomy wound. As soon as the tracheotomy was completed, we removed the endotracheal tube and hooked the anesthesia machine to the tracheotomy tube and efforts were made then to put in a chest tube, an anterior chest tube.

Mr. Specter. How long were you with President Kennedy altogether?

Dr. Giesecke. Approximately 5 minutes.

Mr. Specter. Have you now described everything which was done during the time you were there?

Dr. Giesecke. No—after having assisted Dr. Jenkins in establishing a ventilation, I then hooked up a cardiotachioscope or an electronic electrocardiographic monitor to the President by putting needles in the skin and plugging the thing in the wall, plugging the monitor in the wall. Before the machine had sufficient time to warm up to see if there were any electrical activity, then I was called out of the room.

75 Mr. Specter. And did you have any occasion to return to the room where the President was?

Dr. Giesecke. No.

Mr. Specter. And where were you called to?

Dr. Giesecke. I was called across the hall where Governor Connally was being moved out of the emergency treatment room and toward the operating room.

Mr. Specter. And what action did you take at that time, if any?

Dr. Giesecke. I had my equipment with me—I had taken my equipment with me from the room where the President was, having ascertained that Dr. Jenkins didn't need anything that I had, and so I proceeded to the elevator. We moved the equipment and the Governor—the Governor went on the first elevator and I caught the second one.

Mr. Specter. And where did you go on the second elevator?

Dr. Giesecke. To the second floor where the operating suite is, moved off of the elevator and down to operating room 5, which was being set up for the Governor. The Governor had arrived and I obtained from the anesthesia orderly an anesthesia machine, checked it for safe operation, and discussed the Governor's condition a little bit with him, and determined that he was conscious and that he could respond to questions and that he hadn't eaten in the previous several hours, and proceeded to induce an anesthesia.

Mr. Specter. Now, are all the details of your activity in connection with Governor Connally's operation contained in the report marked "Dr. Giesecke's Exhibit No. 1"?

Dr. Giesecke. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Now, you mentioned a few minutes ago that you talked about this matter with a number of people—whom have you talked to, Dr. Giesecke?

Dr. Giesecke. Well, of course, we discussed it with Dr. Jenkins and various members of the anesthesia staff. We have discussed it with—I've forgotten that gentleman's name, but he was from the American Medical Association, as a historian. We discussed it with Dr. Mike Bush, who then reported it in the Anesthesiology Newsletter, which is a publication of the American Society of Anesthesiologists, and then discussed it with the Secretary of—may I retract that. That's about it—that's the extent of the discussion, except with other members of the surgical staff and the anesthesia staff and these people.

Mr. Specter. Have you ever discussed this matter with any representative of the Federal Government prior to today?

Dr. Giesecke. Yes; there was a well documented Secret Service man here who said he was from the Warren Commission about a month ago, I imagine.

Mr. Specter. What do you mean by "well documented"?

Dr. Giesecke. Well, I mean he had a badge and a card and he seemed to be legitimate.

Mr. Specter. And what did you tell him, if anything?

Dr. Giesecke. He was asking rather specifically if we had made other notes than the reports that we had already submitted, so in essence it was just a matter of telling him, "No, I didn't have any other information written down except what I had already given."

Mr. Specter. And what had you already given—that letter report?

Dr. Giesecke. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. That is marked "Giesecke Exhibit No. 1"?

Dr. Giesecke. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Has any other representative talked to you from the Federal Government about this matter?

Dr. Giesecke. No.

Mr. Specter. This afternoon prior to the time we went on the record, did I ask you a few questions and discuss the nature of this deposition proceeding, and did you give me information just as you have on the record here after the court reporter started to take everything down?

Dr. Giesecke. Yes; that's correct. She was out of the room for a few minutes before we started.

Mr. Specter. Do you have anything to add which you think might be helpful to the Warren Commission in its investigation?

76 Dr. Giesecke. No, I think that pretty well covers what I did.

Mr. Specter. May I thank you very much, Dr. Giesecke? That's fine.

Dr. Giesecke. Thank you.

TESTIMONY OF DR. JACKIE HANSEN HUNT

The testimony of Dr. Jackie Hansen Hunt was taken at 1:12 p.m., on March 24, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. Specter. May the record show that Dr. Jackie H. Hunt is present, and may I show for the record that the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy is conducting an inquiry into all the facts surrounding the assassination of the President, and the medical care performed on President Kennedy at Parkland Memorial Hospital.

Dr. Hunt appears here today in response to a letter requesting that her deposition be taken, and may the record reflect the additional fact that Dr. Hunt is a lady doctor.

Would you at this time, Dr. Hunt, stand up and raise your right hand?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give before the President's Commission in this deposition proceeding will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Dr. Hunt. I do, sir.

Mr. Specter. Will you state your full name, please?

Dr. Hunt. Jackie Hansen Hunt, H-a-n-s-e-n (spelling).

Mr. Specter. And what is your profession?

Dr. Hunt. Medical doctor.

Mr. Specter. And, are you duly licensed to practice medicine by the State of Texas?

Dr. Hunt. I am.

Mr. Specter. And in what year were you so licensed?

Dr. Hunt. 1950.

Mr. Specter. Will you outline briefly your educational background, please?

Dr. Hunt. I graduated from medical school at Tulane College of Medicine in 1949. I had a year of rotating internship followed by a year of pediatric residency. In 1961 I started a residency in anesthesiology, which I completed in 1963, and I am now a fellow in anesthesiology.

Mr. Specter. Are you board certified, then, Dr. Hunt, at this time?

Dr. Hunt. No.

Mr. Specter. Are you working toward board certification?

Dr. Hunt. Yes, I am. I am eligible and will take the first part in June.

Mr. Specter. Did you have occasion on November 22 to render medical aid to the late President Kennedy?

Dr. Hunt. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Will you relate briefly the circumstances surrounding your being called into the case?

Dr. Hunt. I was in Parkland Hospital on duty with the anesthesiology department and was notified by our chief of staff, Dr. M. T. Jenkins, that the President had been shot. Together with Dr. Giesecke and Dr. Akin, I got an anesthesia machine and put it on an elevator and checked it out and set it up on the way to the emergency room and took it into the emergency room where the President was and he had been intubated, and I helped Dr. Jenkins connect the anesthesia machine to the endotracheal tube which at that time was being run, I believe, by a Bird machine, and after making certain that the connections were properly done, I placed the equipment in Dr. Jenkins' hands.

Mr. Specter. What doctors were present when you arrived there, Dr. Hunt?

Dr. Hunt. Dr. Jenkins, Dr. Malc Perry—quite a number of others—I just can't remember who was there today.

77 Mr. Specter. Were any nurses present?

Dr. Hunt. Yes—I don't know the names of any of them.

Mr. Specter. What, if anything, did you observe as to the condition of President Kennedy?

Dr. Hunt. The first good look I took at him I noticed that his eyes were opened and that the pupils were widely dilated and fixed and so I assumed that he was in essence dead.

Mr. Specter. At approximately what time did you arrive in the emergency room?

Dr. Hunt. I don't know—it would have been—I would think near 12:45, but I have really never even thought about it and I frankly don't remember.

Mr. Specter. And how long after you arrived did you have an opportunity to observe the President in the way which you have just described?

Dr. Hunt. How long was it from the time I came in until I looked at him?

Mr. Specter. Yes, ma'am.

Dr. Hunt. A minute—2 minutes.

Mr. Specter. Did you have any other observations at that time?

Dr. Hunt. No—other than that everyone was working on him. They were doing cardiac massage, closed chest massage, I.V.'s were running, and others were being started.

Mr. Specter. I.V.'s?

Dr. Hunt. Intravenous fluids and, of course, our department was breathing for him.

Mr. Specter. And when you say "breathing for him," what do you mean by that?

Dr. Hunt. Ventilating him—an endotracheal tube down into the trachea attached to an anesthesia machine with 100 percent oxygen going, and by manual compression of the bag, ventilating him.

Mr. Specter. Did you observe any wounds on the President?

Dr. Hunt. I actually did not see the wounds.

Mr. Specter. Did you at any time see a wound to the head?

Dr. Hunt. No; I didn't see it.

Mr. Specter. And was there something obscuring your view from seeing the head wound?

Dr. Hunt. Yes; I could see his face and I could also see that a great deal of blood was running off of the table from his right side and I was on his left side.

Mr. Specter. Were you near his head or foot or the middle of the body?

Dr. Hunt. I was about midbody actually, well, no—more at his shoulder, when I leaned over to look at him.

Mr. Specter. Did you ever observe any wound in the neck?

Dr. Hunt. I did not actually see the wound in the neck. I say that because I assumed there was a wound—someone's hand was there and there was blood present, but there was blood on nearly everyone.

Mr. Specter. What was the condition of his throat when you first observed him, if you did observe it at all?

Dr. Hunt. I couldn't—I don't know—I can't say. You mean, as far as inside or outside?

Mr. Specter. Outside.

Dr. Hunt. I don't actually remember seeing anything except someone's hands were using a sponge or something was present in the area.

Mr. Specter. What medical operation, if any, was performed on his throat?

Dr. Hunt. I don't know.

Mr. Specter. Did you observe a tracheotomy being performed on his throat?

Dr. Hunt. No—that's not to say that they were not doing one.

Mr. Specter. What else was done for the President other than that which you have already described?

Dr. Hunt. Well, let's see, I don't—as far as actual observation, I didn't—other things were done—I left at this time and went to Governor Connally.

Mr. Specter. At about what time did you leave President Kennedy?

Dr. Hunt. I was probably in the room no more than 4 minutes at the most.

Mr. Specter. Had he been pronounced dead by the time you left?

78 Dr. Hunt. No; he had not.

Mr. Specter. And where did you go when you left the President's room?

Dr. Hunt. Straight across to operating room 2.

Mr. Specter. And what did you find in operating room 2 when you arrived there?

Dr. Hunt. Governor Connally was present there and——

Mr. Specter. What doctors, if any, were present when you arrived?

Dr. Hunt. Red Duke—I'm sorry, I just don't remember who the others were. There were three or four.

Mr. Specter. What action was being taken with respect to Governor Connally upon your arrival there?

Dr. Hunt. They were placing chest tubes, as a matter of fact, they had one in and were putting the other one in, and were—they had an I.V. going, I believe someone had done a cutdown, and they were checking other wounds. He had a wound on his arm and another wound down on his leg, I think, and that was about it—preparing to take him promptly up to surgery.

Mr. Specter. And what did you do on that occasion?

Dr. Hunt. I walked in and Dr. Duke looked up and the first thing I did was to look at the Governor—I took his pulse and he spoke to me and said something, and noted his color.

Mr. Specter. What did the Governor say to you?

Dr. Hunt. He said something like, "It hurts," not anything real specific, but he did at least speak, and it was a conscious thought type of thing, so that he was more or less alert, responding, so then I stepped back into the hall and signaled a fellow, a medical student who has been in our department, that is rotating through anesthesia, and I happened to see him just outside the door, and I asked him to please go upstairs and bring me another unit of equipment and then came back in and told Dr. Duke I had sent for equipment, although I didn't believe the Governor was going to need it, and he said that he was very glad that I had and he, too, didn't think he would need it, but he should have it as a standby, and then they brought me a machine and my table down and I stayed with the Governor until he was ready to go upstairs, but he did not require any respiratory aid because he was not that critical.

Mr. Specter. Did you participate any further with the treatment of Governor Connally?

Dr. Hunt. When we were ready to go upstairs, I went back to the room where the President was and Dr. Giesecke, who is a staff member from our department, appeared relatively free and I asked him if he would come and go upstairs with the Governor and I came on upstairs in a different route. I didn't go in the elevator with the Governor—Dr. Giesecke went with him, and helped Dr. Giesecke get under way with the surgery.

Mr. Specter. How did you go upstairs, by what route?

Dr. Hunt. I don't know—I don't remember.

Mr. Specter. Is there any other elevator going up to the operating rooms?

Dr. Hunt. Yes; there are four elevators.

Mr. Specter. But do those lead from the emergency rooms?

Dr. Hunt. No; you come down this long hallway up to those of the ground floor.

Mr. Specter. Is there more than one elevator for the stretcher to go through from the emergency room up to the second floor operating rooms?

Dr. Hunt. Yes; they can—they come up to these.

Mr. Specter. What route would they have to take to do this?

Dr. Hunt. They would have to come directly out of the emergency room and down this main hallway to this front bank of elevators.

Mr. Specter. That would be a pretty long route, would it not?

Dr. Hunt. Actually, it isn't very long. I don't know in yards or paces even, but there are three elevators there.

Mr. Specter. What route did Governor Connally use?

Dr. Hunt. I think they took him by the back elevator, the one that comes down into the emergency room.

Mr. Specter. Is that the one they customarily use to take people from the emergency area into the operating room?

79 Dr. Hunt. Yes; if there is an emergency it goes straight up—they usually use that one.

Mr. Specter. You say you went back to President Kennedy's room?

Dr. Hunt. Yes.

Mr. Specter. And what did you observe there at that time?

Dr. Hunt. At that time I did notice, and possibly this was there earlier, I noticed that they had gotten more monitoring equipment in and connected the electronic equipment for monitoring the electrocardiogram.

Mr. Specter. At what time did you return to President Kennedy's room?

Dr. Hunt. I don't know—it would probably have been maybe 3 or 4 or 5 minutes from the time I stepped out, because I went across the hall—I didn't know the Governor was there, and someone told me and I went in and just took a brief look at him to sort of size up his condition, and stepped out and sent for my equipment and went back in and stayed until they brought my equipment. It would have been a little longer than 4 or 5 minutes because they had to bring the equipment down the elevator and it had arrived and been there a few minutes—3 or 4 minutes before we were ready to take him upstairs.

Mr. Specter. And what was going on in the President's room when you returned there?

Dr. Hunt. Well, there were still a goodly number of people, oh, at least 10 people, possibly there were more—I'm not real sure, but there were still—at that time there were, I know, at least three anesthesiologists in there—Dr. Jenkins, Dr. Akin, and Dr. Giesecke, and I believe Dr. Baxter was in there, and Dr. Perry was still there.

Mr. Specter. Were they still working on the President at that time?

Dr. Hunt. Yes, sir; I don't know what they were doing.

Mr. Specter. How long did you stay on that occasion?

Dr. Hunt. Just, oh, a minute—just long enough to catch Dr. Giesecke's eye and let him know I was there and going out.

Mr. Specter. And did you ever return to the President's room?

Dr. Hunt. No; I don't believe I did—no; I'm sure I didn't, because I came on upstairs with Governor Connally.

Mr. Specter. And did you participate then with Governor Connally's operation?

Dr. Hunt. I helped Dr. Giesecke during the induction of anesthesia.

Mr. Specter. Have you talked to any representative of the Federal Government prior to today?

Dr. Hunt. No; I haven't.

Mr. Specter. Did you make any written report of your participation in the care of Governor Connally and President Kennedy?

Dr. Hunt. Not directly. Dr. Giesecke called me one day and said that, I think it was the A.M.A. was here and just wanted to verify my movements for the day, which I told him and he in turn told them that—I did not appear before them.

Mr. Specter. Did you make any written reports yourself?

Dr. Hunt. No.

Mr. Specter. Do you have any notes of any sort concerning your participation?

Dr. Hunt. None whatsoever.

Mr. Specter. Prior to the time the court reporter started to take down the transcript of my questions and your answers, did you and I have a brief discussion about the purpose of this deposition?

Dr. Hunt. Yes.

Mr. Specter. And the questions I would ask you?

Dr. Hunt. Yes.

Mr. Specter. And is the information which you have provided on the record the same as you told me before the written deposition started?

Dr. Hunt. Elaborated somewhat.

Mr. Specter. Do you have anything to add which you think might be of aid to the Commission in its investigation?

Dr. Hunt. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. Specter. Thank you very much for appearing, Dr. Hunt.

Dr. Hunt. Thank you.

80

TESTIMONY OF DR. KENNETH EVERETT SALYER

The testimony of Dr. Kenneth Everett Salyer was taken at 6:15 p.m., on March 25, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. Specter. May the record show that Dr. Kenneth Salyer is present in response to an inquiry that he appear to have his deposition taken in connection with the inquiries being conducted by the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy, which is looking into all facts of the shooting, including the wounds of the President and the care he received at Parkland Hospital.

With that preliminary statement of purpose, Dr. Salyer, will you stand up and raise your right hand?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you will give before the President's Commission in the course of this deposition will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Dr. Salyer. I do.

Mr. Specter. Have you had an opportunity to examine the document or the Executive order creating the President's Commission and Rules for the taking of testimony?

Dr. Salyer. Yes; I have.

Mr. Specter. And are you willing to have your deposition taken today without having the formal three days of written notice, which you have a right to, if you wish?

Dr. Salyer. Yes.

Mr. Specter. You are willing to waive that right, is that right?

Dr. Salyer. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Would you state your full name for the record, please?

Dr. Salyer. Kenneth Everett Salyer.

Mr. Specter. What is your profession?

Dr. Salyer. Physician.

Mr. Specter. Are you duly licensed to practice medicine by the State of Texas?

Dr. Salyer. Yes; I am.

Mr. Specter. And would you outline briefly your educational background, please?

Dr. Salyer. A B.S. degree at the University of Kansas, an M.D. degree at the University of Kansas, and internship at Parkland, and now a first year resident in surgery at Parkland Hospital.

Mr. Specter. In what year did you graduate from the University of Kansas Medical School?

Dr. Salyer. 1962.

Mr. Specter. And how old are you, Dr. Salyer?

Dr. Salyer. I am 27.

Mr. Specter. Will you relate briefly the circumstances surrounding your being called in to assist in the treatment of President Kennedy?

Dr. Salyer. Well, for the month of November, as part of our rotation on surgery, I spent that month on neurosurgery, and being on call that day for any emergencies which come in to our emergency room related to neurosurgical problems, we would be called down to the emergency room to see these, and I was upstairs viewing a movie when I heard that the President had arrived and so I thought I should go down to the emergency room and see what the situation was.

Mr. Specter. And, upon your arrival at the emergency room, who was present?

Dr. Salyer. Oh, I don't recall—I know that there were a room full of doctors—I could list specific ones that I remember if you would like.

Mr. Specter. Would you please?

Dr. Salyer. I don't really think I could give you every one, but I remember Dr. Jenkins and Dr. Perry and Dr. Baxter, and also Dr. Bob McClelland and Dr. Carrico and Dr. Crenshaw, and I think a Dr. Gene Akin was there also—at that time, when I first came in.

81 Mr. Specter. Can you think of any others?

Dr. Salyer. No; I don't recall any others—there could have been some, there were a lot of people sort of moving in and out. There certainly were a lot of nurses in there at that time.

Mr. Specter. Can you identify any of the nurses who were there?

Dr. Salyer. No; I can't.

Mr. Specter. What was the President's condition at the time you arrived?

Dr. Salyer. It was critical.

Mr. Specter. What did you observe about him with respect to any wounds he may have sustained?

Dr. Salyer. Well, I observed that he did have some sucking wound of some type on his neck, and that he also had a wound of his right temporal region—these were the two main wounds.

Mr. Specter. Did you have an opportunity to observe his throat?

Dr. Salyer. No; I really did not. I think there were a lot of people—a lot of doctors more closely around him. I might mention also, I think just right after I came in the room Dr. Clark and Dr. Grossman also arrived.

Mr. Specter. Doctor who?

Dr. Salyer. Dr. Grossman, just briefly. He's a neurosurgeon also.

Mr. Specter. What is his name?

Dr. Salyer. Dr. Grossman—Bob Grossman. He was just there, I think, briefly.

Mr. Specter. How long was he there?

Dr. Salyer. I couldn't say—I'm not sure he came in the room. I know they were together—I cannot say that for sure.

Mr. Specter. To what extent did Dr. Crenshaw participate?

Dr. Salyer. Dr. Crenshaw participated about the extent that I did. We were occupied in making sure an I.V. was going and hanging up a bottle of blood.

Mr. Specter. Is the—is Dr. Crenshaw a resident?

Dr. Salyer. Yes, he is third-year resident. That's the reason I remember him specifically because we were sort of working there together on that.

Mr. Specter. I had asked you a moment ago whether you had an opportunity to observe the condition of the President's throat.

Dr. Salyer. Right.

Mr. Specter. What was your answer to that question?

Dr. Salyer. The answer was—there were a lot of doctors standing around, and I didn't really get to observe the nature of the wound in the throat.

Mr. Specter. At approximately what time did you arrive at the emergency room where the President was situated?

Dr. Salyer. I really don't know.

Mr. Specter. What was done for the President by way of treatment that you observed?

Dr. Salyer. Well, an adequate airway eventually, of course, some external cardiac massage—he had I.V.'s—intravenous fluids going in a number of sites, and all of the acute measures we administered him.

Mr. Specter. I didn't hear you at the end of your answer.

Dr. Salyer. I said—all of the many other measures that we administered—I don't recall specifically some of the other details as far as medications and so forth.

Mr. Specter. What did you observe with respect to the head wound?

Dr. Salyer. I came in on the left side of him and noticed that his major wound seemed to be in his right temporal area, at least from the point of view that I could see him, and other than that—nothing other than he did have a gaping scalp wound—cranial wound.

Mr. Specter. Has anyone from the Federal Government talked to you about your observations of this matter?

Dr. Salyer. No one has.

Mr. Specter. Do you have anything to add which you think may be of aid to the President's Commission in its inquiry?

Dr. Salyer. No, I believe not.

Dr. Specter. Thank you very much, Dr. Salyer.

Dr. Salyer. Thank you.

82

TESTIMONY OF DR. MARTIN G. WHITE

The testimony of Dr. Martin G. White was taken at 6:35 p.m., on March 25, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. Specter. May the record show that Dr. Martin White is present in response to a request that he appear to have his deposition taken because he has been identified in prior depositions as being one of the doctors in attendance on President Kennedy.

Dr. White, have you had an opportunity to examine the Executive order creating the Presidential Commission?

Dr. White. Yes.

Mr. Specter. And have you had an opportunity to examine the resolution setting forth the rules for taking depositions?

Dr. White. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Are you willing to have your deposition taken without the 3-day notice to which you have a right under the rules, if you wish to receive formal written notice? And have three days after mailing before you appear to have your deposition taken?

Dr. White. No, I want to have it taken now.

Mr. Specter. You are willing to waive that requirement?

Dr. White. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Will you stand up, then, and raise your right hand?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give before the President's Commission in this deposition proceeding will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Dr. White. I do.

Mr. Specter. Would you state your full name for the record, please?

Dr. White. Martin G. White.

Mr. Specter. What is your profession, sir?

Dr. White. M.D.—physician.

Mr. Specter. Are you duly licensed in the State of Texas to practice medicine?

Dr. White. In this institution.

Mr. Specter. What is your educational background, please?

Dr. White. I have a bachelor of medicine degree from Northwestern University and a master of science degree from Northwestern University and a doctor of medicine degree from Northwestern University.

Mr. Specter. How old are you, Doctor?

Dr. White. Twenty-five.

Mr. Specter. Were you in attendance when President Kennedy was being treated on November 22, 1963?

Dr. White. I was.

Mr. Specter. And what were the circumstances of your being called into the case?

Dr. White. I was the intern assigned to the surgery section of the emergency room on that day and was there when the President's body was brought into the emergency room.

Mr. Specter. And what did you do in connection with the President's treatment?

Dr. White. I put an intervenous cutdown in the President's right foot.

Mr. Specter. Did you have an opportunity to observe any of his wounds?

Dr. White. I saw the wound in his head as he was brought into the trauma room where he was treated.

Mr. Specter. Did you observe any other wounds?

Dr. White. No, I did not see any other.

Mr. Specter. Did you observe specifically a wound in the neck?

Dr. White. I did not look and did not observe any.

Mr. Specter. How long were you present while the President was being treated?

Dr. White. I would estimate about 10 to 15 minutes.

83 Mr. Specter. And did you leave prior to the time he was pronounced to be dead?

Dr. White. Yes; I did.

Mr. Specter. Why did you leave?

Dr. White. My duties had been completed and there was work elsewhere, with the Governor, to be done.

Mr. Specter. Who was present at the time you were there, Dr. White?

Dr. White. As best I can recall, Dr. Carrico and I were the physicians immediately present when the President's body was brought in, plus a number of individuals who accompanied the cart on which his body was lying, and the only individual who I knew in that group was his wife, Mrs. Kennedy.

Mr. Specter. And what doctors were present at the time you left the room?

Dr. White. Well, it would be impossible for me to tell you all the people that were there, but I knew Dr. Carrico, Dr. Baxter, Dr. Perry and Dr. Zedelitz, Z-e-d-e-l-i-t-z (spelling)—I know they were there.

Mr. Specter. Doctor who—what is his first name?

Dr. White. William Zedelitz.

Mr. Specter. To what extent did he participate?

Dr. White. I don't believe that he had any—I don't know what he did other than the fact that when I was doing the cutdown he assisted me by just placing some tape over the catheters we used to do this with.

Mr. Specter. Is he an intern as you are?

Dr. White. He is a surgical resident here at this hospital.

Mr. Specter. Who else was present?

Dr. White. I can't be sure that I saw anyone else, although, as I say—many people were there whose faces I can't recall.

Mr. Specter. Can you identify any of the nurses who were present?

Dr. White. Yes; one of the nurses—there were two there, Jeanette, and her last name—I don't know at the present time, and she is chief nurse in the emergency room.

Mr. Specter. Doris Nelson?

Dr. White. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Jeanette Standridge?

Dr. White. Yes; Jeanette Standridge was the other nurse.

Mr. Specter. Do you have anything to add which you think might be of help to the Commission?

Dr. White. No; I don't.

Mr. Specter. Thank you very much, Dr. White for coming.

Dr. White. All right, thank you.

TESTIMONY OF DR. ROBERT SHAW

The testimony of Dr. Robert Shaw was taken at 6 p.m., on March 23, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. Specter. May the record show that Dr. Robert Shaw is present, having responded to a request to have his deposition taken in connection with the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy, which is investigating all facts relating to the medical care of President Kennedy and Governor Connally, and Dr. Shaw has been requested to appear and testify concerning the treatment on Governor Connally.

Dr. Shaw, will you rise and raise your right hand, please.

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give before the President's Commission in the course of this deposition proceeding will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Dr. Shaw. I do.

Mr. Specter. Will you state your full name for the record, please?

84 Dr. Shaw. Robert Roeder Shaw.

Mr. Specter. And what is your profession, sir?

Dr. Shaw. Physician and surgeon.

Mr. Specter. Will you outline briefly your educational background, please?

Dr. Shaw. I received my B.A. degree from the University of Michigan in 1927 and M.D. degree in 1933. My surgical training was obtained at Roosevelt Hospital in New York City, July 1934 to July 1936, and my training in thoracic surgery at the University Hospital, Ann Arbor, Mich., July 1936 to July 1938. Do you want me to say what happened subsequent to then?

Mr. Specter. Yes; will you outline your medical career in brief form subsequent to that date, please?

Dr. Shaw. I entered private practice, limited to thoracic surgery, August 1, 1938. I have continuously practiced this specialty in Dallas, with the exception of the period from June 1942 to December 1945, when I was a member of the Medical Corps of the Army of the United States, serving almost all of this period in the European theatre of operations. I was again absent from Dallas from December 1961 until June 1963, when I headed the medico team and performed surgery at the Avicenna Hospital at Kabul, Afghanistan.

Mr. Specter. Are you Board certified, Dr. Shaw?

Dr. Shaw. Yes. I am certified by the Board of Thoracic Surgery, date of certification—1948. At the present time I am professor of thoracic surgery and chairman of the division of thoracic surgery at the University of Texas, Southwestern Medical School.

Mr. Specter. Did you have occasion to perform any medical care for President Kennedy on November 22, 1963?

Dr. Shaw. No.

Mr. Specter. Did you have occasion to care for Governor Connally?

Dr. Shaw. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Would you relate the circumstances of your being called in to care for the Governor, please?

Dr. Shaw. I was returning to Parkland Hospital and the medical school from a conference I had attended at Woodlawn Hospital, which is approximately a mile away, when I saw an open limousine going past the intersection of Industrial Boulevard and Harry Hines Boulevard under police escort. As soon as traffic had cleared, I proceeded on to the medical school. On the car radio I heard that the President had been shot at while riding in the motorcade. Upon entering the medical school, a medical student came in and joined three other medical students. He stated that President Kennedy had been brought in dead on arrival to the emergency room of Parkland Hospital and that Governor Connally had been shot through the chest. Upon hearing this, I proceeded immediately to the emergency room of the hospital and arrived at the emergency room approximately 5 minutes after the President and Governor Connally had arrived.

Mr. Specter. Where did you find Governor Connally at that time, Dr. Shaw?

Dr. Shaw. I found Governor Connally lying on a stretcher in emergency room No. 2. In attendance were several men, Dr. James Duke, Dr. David Mebane, Dr. Giesecke, an anesthesiologist. As emergency measures, the open wound on the Governor's right chest had been covered with a heavy dressing and manual pressure was being applied. A drainage tube had been inserted into the second interspace in the anterior portion of the right chest and connected to a water-sealed bottle to bring about partial reexpansion of the collapsed right lung. An intravenous needle had been inserted into a vein in the left arm and intravenous fluid was running.

I was informed by Dr. Duke that blood had already been drawn and sent to the laboratory to be crossmatched with 4 pints of blood, to be available at surgery. He also stated that the operating room had been alerted and that they were merely waiting for my arrival to take the Governor to surgery, since it was obvious that the wound would have to be debrided and closed.

Mr. Specter. At what time did the operation actually start, Dr. Shaw?

Dr. Shaw. That, I would have to refresh my memory on that—now, this, of course—the point he began the anesthesia—that would be about right—but I have to refresh my memory.

85 Mr. Specter. Permit me to make available on the record for you the operative record which has been heretofore marked as Commission Exhibit No. 392, with the exhibit consisting of the records of Parkland Hospital on President Kennedy as well as Governor Connally and I call your attention to a 2-page report which bears your name as the surgeon, under date of November 22, 1963, of thoracic surgery for Governor Connally, and, first, I ask you if in fact this report was prepared by you?

Dr. Shaw. It was.

Mr. Specter. Now, with that report, is your recollection refreshed as to the starting time of the operation on Governor Connally's chest?

Dr. Shaw. Yes; the anesthesia was begun at 1300 hours.

Mr. Specter. Which would be 1 p.m.?

Dr. Shaw. 1 p.m., and the actual incision was made at 1335 or 1:35 p.m.

Mr. Specter. And what time did that operation conclude?

Dr. Shaw. My operation was completed at 1520 hours, or 3:20.

Mr. Specter. Will you describe Governor Connally's condition, Dr. Shaw, directing your attention first to the wound on his back?

Dr. Shaw. When Governor Connally was examined, it was found that there was a small wound of entrance, roughly elliptical in shape, and approximately a cm. and a half in its longest diameter, in the right posterior shoulder, which is medial to the fold of the axilla.

Mr. Specter. What is the axilla, in lay language, Dr. Shaw?

Dr. Shaw. The arm pit.

Mr. Specter. Dr. Shaw, will you describe next the wound of exit?

Dr. Shaw. Yes; the wound of exit was below and slightly medial to the nipple on the anterior right chest. It was a round, ragged wound, approximately 5 cm. in diameter. This wound had obviously torn the pleura, since it was a sucking wound, allowing air to pass to and fro between the pleura cavity and the outside of the body.

Mr. Specter. Define the pleura, please, Doctor, in lay language.

Dr. Shaw. The pleura is the lining of the chest cavity with one layer of pleura, the parietal pleura lining the inside of the chest wall, diaphragm and the mediastinum, which is the compartment of the body containing the heart, its pericardial sac, and great vessels.

Mr. Specter. What were the characteristics of these two bullet wounds which led you to believe that one was a wound of entry and one was a wound of exit, Dr. Shaw?

Dr. Shaw. The wound of entrance is almost invariably the smaller wound, since it perforates the skin and makes a wound approximately or slightly larger than the missile. The wound of exit, especially if it has shattered any bony material in the body, will be the larger of the wounds.

Mr. Specter. What experience, Doctor, have you had, if any, in evaluating gunshot wounds?

Dr. Shaw. I have had considerable experience with gunshot wounds and wounds due to missiles because of my war experience. This experience was not only during the almost 2 years in England, but during the time that I was head of the Thoracic Center in Paris, France, for a period of approximately a year.

Mr. Specter. Would you be able to give an approximation of the total number of bullet wounds you have had occasion to observe and treat?

Dr. Shaw. Considering the war experience and the addition of wounds seen in civilian practice, it probably would number well over a thousand, since we had over 900 admissions to the hospital in Paris.

Mr. Specter. What was the line of trajectory, Dr. Shaw, between the point in the back of the Governor and the point in the front of the Governor, where the bullet wounds were observed?

Dr. Shaw. Considering the wound of entrance and the wound of exit, the trajectory of the bullet was obliquely downward, considering the fact that the Governor was in a sitting position at the time of wounding.

Mr. Specter. As an illustrative guide here, Dr. Shaw——

Dr. Shaw. May I add one sentence there?

Mr. Specter. Please do.

86 Dr. Shaw. The bullet, in passing through the Governor's chest wall struck the fifth rib at its midpoint and roughly followed the slanting direction of the fifth rib, shattering approximately 10 cm. of the rib. The intercostal muscle bundle above the fifth rib and below the fifth rib were surprisingly spared from injury by the shattering of the rib, which again establishes the trajectory of the bullet.

Mr. Specter. Would the shattering of the rib have had any effect in deflecting the path of the bullet from a straight line?

Dr. Shaw. It could have, except that in the case of this injury, the rib was obviously struck so that not too dense cancellus portion of the rib in this position was carried away by the bullet and probably there was very little in the way of deflection.

Mr. Specter. At this time, Dr. Shaw, I would like to call your attention to an exhibit which we have already had marked as Dr. Gregory's Exhibit No. 1, because we have used this in the course of his deposition earlier today and this is a body diagram, and I ask you, first of all, looking at Diagram No. 1, to comment as to whether the point of entry marked on the right shoulder of Governor Connally is accurate?

Dr. Shaw. Yes. The point of entry as marked on this exhibit I consider to be quite accurate.

Mr. Specter. Is the size and dimension of the hole accurate on scale, or would you care to make any adjustment or modification in that characterization by picture?

Dr. Shaw. As the wound entry is marked on this figure, I would say that the scale is larger than the actual wound or the actual depicting of the wound should be. As I described it, it was approximately a centimeter and a half in length.

Mr. Specter. Would you draw, Dr. Shaw, right above the shoulder as best you can recollect, what that wound of entry appeared at the time you first observed it? Would you put your initials right beside that?

(The witness, Dr. Shaw, complied with the request of Counsel Specter.)

Mr. Specter. Now, directing your attention to the figure right beside, showing the front view, does the point of exit on the lower chest of the figure there correspond with the point of exit on the body of Governor Connally?

Dr. Shaw. Yes; I would say that it conforms in every way except that it was a little nearer to the right nipple than depicted here.

Off the record, just a minute.

(Discussion between Counsel Specter and the witness, Dr. Shaw, off the record.)

Mr. Specter. Dr. Shaw, in our off-the-record conversation, you called my attention to your thought that the nipple line is incorrectly depicted on that figure, would you, therefore, in ink mark on there the nipple line which would be more accurate proportionately to that body?

Dr. Shaw. Yes; I feel the nipple line as shown on this figure is a little high and should be placed at a lower point on the body, which would bring the wound of exit, which I feel is in the proper position, more in line with the actual position of the nipple.

Mr. Specter. Now, with the wound of exit as it is shown there, does that correspond in position with the actual situation on Governor Connally's body as you have redrawn the proportion to the nipple line?

Dr. Shaw. It does.

Mr. Specter. Would you put an "X" through the old nipple line so we have obscured that and put your initials beside those two marks, if you would, please?

Dr. Shaw. By the "X-1"?

Mr. Specter. Yes, please.

(The witness, Dr. Shaw, complied with request of Counsel Specter in drawing on the figure heretofore mentioned.)

Mr. Specter. Now, as to the proportion of the hole depicting the point of exit, is that correct with respect to characterizing the situation on Governor Connally?

Dr. Shaw. It is, and corresponds with the relative size of the two wounds as I have shown on the other figure.

87 Mr. Specter. Would you at this time, right above the right shoulder there, draw the appearances of the point of exit as nearly as you can recollect it on Governor Connally?

Dr. Shaw. This is right.

Mr. Specter. You say the hole which appears on Governor Connally is just about the size that it would have been on his body?

Dr. Shaw. Yes; it is drawn in good scale.

Mr. Specter. In good scale to the body?

Dr. Shaw. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Would you draw it on another portion of the paper here in terms of its absolute size?

Dr. Shaw. Five cm. it would be—about like that—do you want me to mark that?

Mr. Specter. Put your initials right in the center of that circle.

Dr. Shaw. I'll just put "wound of exit."

Mr. Specter. Fine—just put "wound of exit—actual size" and put your initials under it.

(The witness, Dr. Shaw, complied with request of Counsel Specter.)

Mr. Specter. Let the record show that Dr. Shaw has marked "wound of exit—actual size" with his initials R.R.S. on the diagram 1.

Now, looking at diagram 2, Dr. Shaw, does the angle of declination on the figure correspond with the angle that the bullet passed through Governor Connally's chest?

Dr. Shaw. It does.

Mr. Specter. Is there any feature of diagram 3 which is useful in further elaborating that which you have commented about on diagram 1?

Dr. Shaw. No. Again off the record?

Mr. Specter. All right, off the record.

(Discussion between Counsel Specter and the witness, Dr. Shaw, off the record.)

Mr. Specter. You have just commented off the record, Dr. Shaw, that the wound of entry is too large proportionately to the wound of exit, but aside from that, is there anything else on diagram 3 which will be helpful to us?

Dr. Shaw. No.

Mr. Specter. Is there anything else on diagram 4 which would be helpful by way of elaborating that which appeared on diagram 2?

Dr. Shaw. No.

Mr. Specter. Now as to the treatment or operative procedure which you performed on Governor Connally, would you now describe what you did for him?

Dr. Shaw. As soon as anesthesia had been established and an endotracheal tube was in place so that respiration could be controlled with positive pressure, the large occlusive dressing which had been applied in the emergency room was removed. This permitted better inspection of the wound of exit, air passed to and fro through the damaged chest wall, there was obvious softening of the bony framework of the chest wall as evidenced by exaggerated motion underneath the skin along the line of the trajectory of the missile.

The skin of the chest wall axilla and back were thoroughly cleaned and aseptic solution was applied for further cleaning of the skin, the whole area was draped so as to permit access to both the wound of exit and the entrance wound. Temporarily, the wound of entrance was covered with a sterile towel.

First an elliptical incision was made to remove the ragged edges of the wound of exit. This incision was then extended laterally and upward in a curved direction so as to not have the incision through the skin and subcutaneous tissue directly over the line of the trajectory of the bullet where the chest had been softened.

It was found that approximately 10 cm. of the fifth rib had been shattered and the rib fragments acting as secondary missiles had been the major contributing factor to the damage to the anterior chest wall and to the underlying lung.

Mr. Specter. What do you mean, Doctor, by the words "fragments acting as secondary missiles"?

88 Dr. Shaw. When bone is struck by a high velocity missile it fragments and acts much like bowling pins when they are struck by a bowling ball—they fly in all directions.

Mr. Specter. Will you continue now and further describe the treatment which you performed?

Dr. Shaw. The bony fragments were removed along with all obviously damaged muscle. It was found that the fourth and fifth intercoastal muscle bundles were almost completely intact where the rib had been stripped out. There was damage to the latissimus dorsi muscle, but this was more in the way of laceration, so that the damage could be repaired by suture. The portion of parietal pleura which had not been torn by the injury was opened along the length of the resected portion of the fifth rib. The jagged ends of the fifth rib were cleaned with a rongeur; approximately 200 cc. of clot and liquid blood was removed from the pleura cavity; inspection of the lung revealed that the middle lobe had a long tear which separated the lobe into approximately two equal segments. This tear extended up into the hilum of the lobe, but had not torn a major bronchus or a major blood vessel. The middle lobe was repaired with a running No. 3 O chromic gut approximating the tissue of the depths of the lobe, with two sutures, and then approximating the visceral pleura on both the medial and lateral surface with a running suture of the same material—same gut.

Upon repair of the lobe it expanded well upon pressure on the anesthetic bag with very little in the way of peripheral leak.

Attention was next turned to the lower lobe. There was a large hematoma in the anterior basal segment of the right lower lobe extending on into the median basal segment. At one point there was a laceration in the surface of the lobe approximating a centimeter in length, undoubtedly caused by one of the penetrating rib fragments. A single mattress suture No. 3 O chromic gut on an atromitac needle was used to close this laceration from which blood was oozing.

Next, the diaphragm and all parts of the right mediastinum was examined but no injury was found.

The portion of the drainage tube which had already been placed in the second interspace in the anterior axillary line which protruded into the chest was cut away, since it was deemed to be longer than necessary. A second drainage tube was placed through a stab wound in the eighth interspace in the posterior axillary line and both of these tubes were connected to a water sealed bottle. The fourth and fifth intercoastal muscle bundles were then approximated with interrupted sutures of No. O chromic gut.

The remaining portion of the serratus anterior muscle was then approximated across the closure of the intercostal muscles. The laceration at the latissimus dorsi muscle was then approximated with No. O chromic guts suture. Before closing the skin and subcutaneous tissue a stab wound approximately 2 cm. in length was made near the lower tip of the right scapula and a latex rubber drain was drawn up through this stab wound to drain subscapular space. This drain was marked with a safety pin. The subcutaneous tissue was then closed with interrupted sutures of No. O chromic gut, inverting the knots. The skin was closed with interrupted vertical mattress sutures of black silk.

Attention was next turned to the wound of entrance. The skin surrounding the wound was removed in an elliptical fashion, enlarging the incision to approximately 3 cm. Examination of the depths of this wound reveal that the latissimus dorsi muscle alone was injured, and the latex rubber drain could be felt immediately below the laceration in the muscle. A single mattress suture was used to close the laceration in the muscle. The skin was then closed with interrupted vertical mattress sutures of black silk. The drainage tubes going into the pleura cavity were then secured with safety pins and adhesive tape and a dressing applied to the entire incision. This concluded the operation for the wound of the chest, and at this point Dr. Gregory and Dr. Shires entered the operating room to care for the wounds of the right wrist and left thigh.

Mr. Specter. What did you observe, Dr. Shaw, as to the wound of the right wrist?

Dr. Shaw. Well, I would have to say that my observations are probably not accurate. I knew that the wound of the wrist had fractured the lower end of89 the right radius and I saw one large wound on the—I guess you would call it the volar surface of the right arm and a small wound on the dorsum of the right wrist.

Mr. Specter. Which appeared to you to be the point of entrance, Dr. Shaw?

Dr. Shaw. To me, I felt that the wound of entrance was the wound on the volar surface or the anterior surface with the hand held in the upright or the supine position, with the wound of exit being the small wound on the dorsum.

Mr. Specter. What were the characteristics of those wounds which led you to that conclusion?

Dr. Shaw. Although the wound of entrance, I mean, although the wound that I felt was a wound of entrance was the larger of the two, it was my feeling that considering the large wound of exit from the chest, that this was consistent with the wound that I saw on the wrist. May we go off the record?

Mr. Specter. Sure.

(Discussion between Counsel Specter and the witness Dr. Shaw off the record.)

Mr. Specter. Now, let's go back on the record.

Dr. Shaw. I'll start by saying that my examination of the wrist was a cursory one because I realized that Dr. Gregory was going to have the responsibility of doing what was necessary surgically for this wrist.

Mr. Specter. Had you conferred with him preliminarily to starting your operation on the chest so that you knew he would be standing by, I believe as you testified earlier, to perform the wrist operation?

Dr. Shaw. Yes—Dr. Gregory was in the hallway of the operating room before I went in to operate on Governor Connally and while I was scrubbing preparatory to the operation, I told him that there was a compound comminuted fracture of the radius of the Governor's right hand that would need his attention.

Mr. Specter. Let the record show that while we were off the record here a moment ago, Dr. Shaw, you and I were discussing the possible angles at which the Governor might have been sitting in relation to a trajectory of a bullet consistent with the observations which you recollect and consistent with what seems to have been a natural position for the Governor to have maintained, in the light of your view of the situation. And with that in mind, let me resume the questioning and put on the record very much of the comments and observations you were making as you and I were discussing off the record as this deposition has proceeded.

Now, you have described a larger wound on the volar or palm side of the wrist than was present on the dorsal or back side of the wrist, and you have expressed the opinion that it was the point of entry on the volar side of the wrist as opposed to a point of exit on the back side of the wrist, even though as you earlier said, ordinarily the point of entry is smaller and the point of exit is larger.

Now, will you repeat for the record, Dr. Shaw, the thinking—your thinking which might explain a larger point of entry and a smaller point of exit on the wrist.

Dr. Shaw. Yes. As a matter of fact, when I first examined Governor Connally's wrist, I did not notice the small wound on the dorsum of the wrist and only saw the much larger wound on the radial side of the volar surface of the wrist. I didn't know about the second small wound until I came in when Dr. Gregory was concluding his operation on the wrist. He informed me that there was another small wound through the skin through which a missile had obviously passed.

Mr. Specter. Now, which wound was that, Dr. Shaw?

Dr. Shaw. This was the wound on the dorsum or the dorsal surface of the wrist.

Mr. Specter. Did you then observe that wound?

Dr. Shaw. Yes; I saw this wound.

Mr. Specter. And where was that wound located to the best of your recollection?

Dr. Shaw. This wound was slightly more distal on the arm than the larger wound and located almost in the midportion of the dorsum of the wrist.

90 Mr. Specter. Would that correspond with this location which I read from Dr. Gregory's report on the dorsal aspect of the right wrist over the junction of the distal fourth of the radius and shaft approximately 2 cm. in length.

Dr. Shaw. The wound was approximately 2 cm. in length?

Mr. Specter. Yes; would that correspond with the wound which you observed?

Dr. Shaw. Yes; I saw it at the time that he was closing it and that would correspond with the wound I observed.

Mr. Specter. He has described that as what he concluded to be the wound of entry on the dorsal aspect of the right wrist, but your thought was that perhaps that was the wound of exit?

Dr. Shaw. Yes; in trying to reconstruct the position of Governor Connally's body, sitting in the jump seat of the limousine, and the attitude that he would assume in turning to the right—this motion would naturally bring the volar surface of the right wrist in contact with the anterior portion of the right chest.

Mr. Specter. Well, is your principal reason for thinking that the wound on the dorsal aspect is a wound of exit rather than a wound of entry because of what you consider to be the awkward position in having the dorsal aspect of the wrist either pointing upward or toward the chest?

Dr. Shaw. Yes, I think I am influenced a great deal by the fact that in trying to assume this position, I can't comfortably turn my arm into a position that would explain the wound of the dorsal surface of the wrist as a wound of entrance, knowing where the missile came out of the chest and assuming that one missile caused both the chest wound and the arm wound.

Mr. Specter. Might not then that conclusion be affected if you discard the assumption that one missile caused all the wounds?

Dr. Shaw. Yes, if two missiles struck the Governor, then it would not be necessary to assume that the larger wound is the wound of entrance.

Mr. Specter. Now, would not another explanation for the presence of a wound on the dorsal aspect of the wrist be if the Governor were sitting in an upright position on the jump seat with his arm resting either on an arm rest inside the car or on a window of the car with the elbow protruding outward, and as he turned around, turning in a rotary motion, his wrist somewhat toward his body so that it was present in an angle of approximately 45 degrees to his body, being slightly moving toward his body.

Dr. Shaw. Well, I myself, am not able to get my arm into that position. If the wound, as I assume to be in the midportion of the forearm here and the wound of exit would be here (illustrating) I can't get my arm into that position as to correspond to what we know about the trajectory of the bullet into the chest.

Mr. Specter. Assuming that the bullet through the chest then also went through the wrist?

Dr. Shaw. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Now, aside from the trajectory and the explanation of one bullet causing all the damage and focusing just on the nature of the wound on the wrist, what conclusion would you reach as to which was the point of entrance and which was the point of exit?

Dr. Shaw. I would feel that the wound on the volar surface of the wrist was the wound of entrance and that perhaps the bullet being partially spent by its passage through the chest wall, struck the radius, fragmenting it, but didn't pass through the wrist, and perhaps tumbled out into the clothing of Governor Connally with only a small fragment of this bullet passing on through the wrist to go out into the left thigh.

Mr. Specter. Now, would that be consistent with a fragment passing through the wrist which was so small that virtually the entire missile, or 158 grains of it, would remain in the central missile?

Dr. Shaw. Yes. The wound on the volar surface, I'm sorry, on the dorsum of the wrist and the wound in the thigh which was obviously a wound of entrance, since the fragment is still within the thigh, were not too dissimilar in size.

Mr. Specter. Was the wound in the thigh itself, that is, aside from the size91 of the fragment which remains in the leg, as small as the hole on the dorsal aspect of the wrist?

Dr. Shaw. My memory is that the wound in the thigh through the skin was about the same as the mound on the skin of the dorsum of the wrist, but I didn't make an accurate observation at the time.

Mr. Specter. Would your thinking on that be affected any if I informed you that Dr. Shires was of the view and had the recollection that the wound on the thigh was much larger than a hole accounted for by the size of fragments which remained in the femur.

Dr. Shaw. Of course, Dr. Shires actually treated and closed this wound, but since this wound was made through the skin in a tangential manner——

Mr. Specter. Now, you are referring to the wound of the thigh?

Dr. Shaw. I am referring to the wound of the thigh—was made in a tangential manner, it did not go in at a direct right angle, the slit in the skin in the thigh could be considerably longer than the actual size of the missile itself, because this is a sharp fragment that would make a cutting—it would cause a laceration rather than a puncture wound.

Mr. Specter. So, the hole in the thigh would be consistent with a very small fragment in the femur?

Dr. Shaw. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Now, a moment ago I asked you what would be your opinion as to the point of entry and the point of exit based solely on the appearances of the holes on the dorsal and volar aspects of the wrist, and you responded that you still thought, or that you did think that the volar aspect was the point of entry with the additional thought that the missile might not have gone through the wrist, but only a fraction having gone through the wrist—now, my question is in giving that answer, did you consider at that time the hypothesis that the wound on the wrist was caused by the same missile which went through the Governor's chest, or was that answer solely in response to the characteristics of the wound on the wrist alone?

Dr. Shaw. I have always felt that the wounds of Governor Connally could be explained by the passage of one missile through his chest, striking his wrist and a fragment of it going on into his left thigh. I had never entertained the idea that he had been struck by a second missile.

Mr. Specter. Well, focusing for just a minute on the limited question of the physical characteristics of the wounds on the wrist, if you had that and nothing more in this case to go on, what would your opinion be as to which point was entry and which point was exit?

Dr. Shaw. Ordinarily, we usually find the wound of entrance is smaller than the wound of exit. In the Governor's wound on the wrist, however, if the wound on the dorsum of the wrist is the wound of entrance, and this large missile passed directly through his radius, I'm not clear as to why there was not a larger wound of exit than there was.

Mr. Specter. You mean on the volar aspect?

Dr. Shaw. Yes; if a whole bullet hit here——

Mr. Specter. Indicating the dorsal aspect?

Dr. Shaw. Yes; and came out through here, why it didn't carry more bone out through the wrist than it did, and the bone was left in the wrist—the bone did not come out. In other words, when it struck the fifth rib it made a hole this big around (indicating) in the chest in carrying bone fragments out through the chest wall.

Mr. Specter. Wouldn't that same question arise if it went through the volar aspect and exited through the dorsal aspect?

Dr. Shaw. It wouldn't if you postulated that the bullet did not pass through the wrist, but struck the wrist.

Mr. Specter. That would be present in either event, though, if you postulated if the bullet struck the dorsal aspect of the wrist, and did not pass through, but only a missile passed through the volar aspect.

Dr. Shaw. Yes; in that case, however, considering the wound of exit from the chest, and if that same bullet went on through the wrist, I would still expect a pretty good wound of entrance.

Mr. Specter. You see, I am trying now, Dr. Shaw, to disassociate the thought92 that this is the same missile, so that I'm trying to look at it just from the physical characteristics of the appearance of the wounds on the two sides of the wrist.

Dr. Shaw. May we go off the record just a minute?

Mr. Specter. Sure—off the record.

(Discussion between Counsel Specter and the witness, Dr. Shaw, off the record.)

Mr. Specter. Let us go back on the record and let the record reflect that we have been discussing another aspect concerning Dr. Shaw's thought that if the main missile had gone through the entire radius, that there would have been more damage, presumably, to the arteries and tendons on the underside of the wrist, and I then called Dr. Shaw's attention to one additional factor in Dr. Gregory's testimony which is reflected in his report that "on the radial side of the arm, small fine bits of cloth consistent with fine bits of mohair were found," which was one of the reasons for Dr. Gregory's thinking that the path was from the dorsal aspect to the volar aspect.

Dr. Shaw. Yes.

Mr. Specter. And Dr. Shaw's reply, if this is correct, Doctor, that you would know of no readily available explanation for that factor in the situation?

Dr. Shaw. Except that it might have been carried by the small fragment which obviously passed through the wrist and attached to that.

Mr. Specter. But could the fragment have carried it from the radial side on it if it had been traveling from the volar side to the radial side?

Dr. Shaw. Yes; it could have carried it through and deposited it on the way through.

Mr. Specter. I see, so it might have started on the volar aspect and could have gone on through.

Dr. Shaw. You know, if we could get that suit of his, it would help a lot.

Mr. Specter. Well, we are going to examine clothing if at all possible.

Dr. Shaw. Because, I think it would have been almost impossible—I think if you examine the clothing and if you had a hole here in his coat and no hole on this side——

Mr. Specter. Indicating a hole on the femur side——

Dr. Shaw. That would almost clear that thing up.

Mr. Specter. Yes; it would be very informational in our analysis of the situation.

Dr. Shaw. I doubt if there is a hole in both sides of the sleeve—the sleeve wouldn't be quite that long, I don't think.

Mr. Specter. Dr. Shaw, my next question involves whether you have ever had a conversation with Governor Connally about the sequence of events of the day he was shot?

Dr. Shaw. Yes, we have talked on more than one occasion about this. The Governor admits that certain aspects of the whole incident are a bit hazy. He remembers hearing a shot. He recognized it as a rifle shot and turned to the right to see whether President Kennedy had been injured. He recognized that the President had been injured, but almost immediately, he stated, that he felt a severe shock to his right chest. He immediately experienced some difficulty in breathing, and as he stated to me, he thought that he had received a mortal wound.

Mr. Specter. Did he tell you why he thought the wound was mortal?

Dr. Shaw. He just knew that he was badly hit, as he expressed it.

Mr. Specter. Did he comment on whether or not he heard a second shot before he felt this wound in his chest?

Dr. Shaw. He says that he did not hear a second shot, but did hear—no, wait a minute, I shouldn't say that. He heard only two shots so that he doesn't know which shot other than the first one he did not hear. He only remembers hearing two shots, his wife says distinctly she heard three.

Mr. Specter. Mrs. Connally said she heard three?

Dr. Shaw. Mrs. Connally distinctly remembered three shots.

Mr. Specter. And, Governor Connally said he heard two shots?

Dr. Shaw. Two shots.

Mr. Specter. Would that not be consistent with a situation where he was hit by the second shot and lost consciousness?

93 Dr. Shaw. Yes; the shock of the wounding might have prevented him from hearing the rifle report.

Mr. Specter. Would you have expected him to hear a third shot after he was wounded by a second shot?

Dr. Shaw. He didn't lose consciousness at that time, although he said he did lose consciousness during a part of the trip from the point of wounding to the hospital.

Mr. Specter. Did Governor Connally tell you whether or not he heard President Kennedy say anything?

Dr. Shaw. He said that all he heard was the President say, "Oh," that's the only thing he told me.

Mr. Specter. Did Mrs. Connally state whether or not she heard the President say anything?

Dr. Shaw. My memory isn't good for that. I don't remember what Mrs. Connally told me on that.

Mr. Specter. Are you continuing to treat Governor Connally at the present time?

Dr. Shaw. Yes, although the treatment of the chest is practically at an end, because the chest has reached a satisfactory state of healing.

Mr. Specter. Did you continue to treat the Governor all during his stay at Parkland Hospital?

Dr. Shaw. Yes, I attended him several times daily.

Mr. Specter. Dr. Shaw, would you think it consistent with the facts that you know as to Governor Connally's wounds that he could have been struck by the same bullet which passed through President Kennedy, assuming that a missile with the muzzle velocity of 2,000 feet per second, a 6.5-millimeter bullet, passed through President Kennedy at a distance of 160 to 250 feet from the rifle, passing through President Kennedy's body, entering on his back and striking only soft tissue and exiting on his neck; could that missile have also gone through Governor Connally's chest in your opinion?

Dr. Shaw. Yes, taking your description of the first wound sustained by the President, which I, myself, did not observe, and considering the position of the two men in the limousine, I think it would be perfectly possible for the first bullet to have passed through the soft tissues of the neck of President Kennedy and produced the wounds that we found on Governor Connally.

Mr. Specter. Could that bullet then have produced all the wounds that you found on Governor Connally?

Dr. Shaw. Yes, I would still be postulating that Governor Connally was struck by one missile.

Mr. Specter. Now, as you sit here at the moment on your postulation that Governor Connally was struck by one missile, is that in a way which is depicted by diagram No. 5 on the exhibit heretofore marked as "Dr. Gregory's Exhibit No. 1?"

Dr. Shaw. Yes; I feel that the line of trajectory as marked on this diagram is accurate as it could be placed from my memory of this wound.

Mr. Specter. And, on that trajectory, how do you postulate the bullet then passed through the wrist from dorsal to volar or from volar to dorsal?

Dr. Shaw. My postulation would be from volar to dorsal.

Mr. Specter. Now, then, going back to diagram No. 1, Dr. Shaw, there is one factor that we did not call your attention to or have you testify about, and that is—the marking that the exit is on the volar side and the entry is on the dorsal side as it was remarked by Dr. Gregory, that would then be inconsistent of your view of the situation, would it not?

Dr. Shaw. Yes, it would be.

Mr. Specter. And similarly on diagram No. 3, where the exit is marked on the volar, and the entry is marked on the dorsal, that would also be inconsistent with your view of the situation?

Dr. Shaw. Yes—he has the wound on the back being quite a bit larger than the wound on the front here, doesn't he?

Mr. Specter. Yes, the wound as it appears here on the diagram is larger.

Dr. Shaw. That wasn't my memory.

94 Mr. Specter. But I don't think that that is necessarily as to scale in this situation. Would it be possible from your knowledge of the facts here, Dr. Shaw, that President Kennedy might have been struck by the bullet passing through him, hitting nothing but soft tissues, and that bullet could have passed through Governor Connally's chest and a second bullet might have struck Governor Connally's wrist?

Dr. Shaw. Yes; this is a perfectly tenable theory.

Mr. Specter. And, then, the damage to Governor Connally's thigh might have come from either of the bullets which passed through the chest or a second bullet which struck the wrist?

Dr. Shaw. That is true—as far as the wounds are concerned, this theory, I feel, is tenable. It doesn't conform to the description of the sequence of the events as described by Mrs. Connally.

Mr. Specter. In what respect Dr. Shaw?

Dr. Shaw. Well she feels that the Governor was only struck by one bullet.

Mr. Specter. Why does she feel that way; do you know, sir?

Dr. Shaw. As soon as he was struck she pushed him to the bottom of the car and got on top of him and it would mean that there would be a period of—well if there were 5½ seconds between the three shots, there would be a couple seconds there that would have given her time to get him down into the car, and as she describes the sequence, it is hard to see how he could have been struck by a second bullet.

Mr. Specter. If she pushed him down immediately after he was shot on the first occasion?

Dr. Shaw. Yes.

Mr. Specter. But if her reaction was not that fast so that he was struck twice, of course then there would be a different situation, depending entirely on how fast she reacted.

Dr. Shaw. I think if he had been struck first in the wrist and not struck in the chest, he would have known that. He only remembers the hard blow to the back of his chest and doesn't remember being struck in the wrist at all.

Mr. Specter. Might he not have been struck in the chest first and struck by a subsequent shot in the wrist?

Dr. Shaw. Yes; but that's hard to postulate if he was down in the bottom of the car.

Mr. Specter. Dr. Shaw, have you been interviewed by any representatives of the Federal Government prior to today?

Dr. Shaw. Yes.

Mr. Specter. And who talked to you about this case?

Dr. Shaw. I don't have his name. I perhaps could find it. It was a member of the Secret Service.

Mr. Specter. On how many occasions were you talked to by a Secret Service man?

Dr. Shaw. Once.

Mr. Specter. And what did you tell him?

Dr. Shaw. I told him approximately the same that has been told in this transcript.

Mr. Specter. And prior to the time we started to go on the record with the court reporter taking this down verbatim, did you and I have a discussion about the purpose of the deposition and the questions that I would ask you?

Dr. Shaw. Yes.

Mr. Specter. And were the answers which you provided me at that time the same as those which you have testified to on the record here this afternoon?

Dr. Shaw. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Do you have any other written record of the operation on Governor Connally other than that which has been identified here in Commission Exhibit No. 392?

Dr. Shaw. No; this is a copy of the operative record that went on to the chart of Governor Connally which is in the possession of the record room of Parkland Hospital.

Mr. Specter. Do you have anything else which you could tell us which you think might be helpful to the Commission in any way, Dr. Shaw?

95 Dr. Shaw. No; I believe that we have covered all of the points that are germane to this incident. Anything else that I would have would actually be hearsay.

Mr. Specter. Thank you very much, sir, for appearing.

Dr. Shaw. All right, you are welcome.

Mr. Specter. Off the record.

(Discussion between Counsel Specter and the witness, Dr. Shaw, off the record.)

Mr. Specter. Dr. Shaw, permit me to ask you one or two more questions. Did you find any bullets in Governor Connally's body?

Dr. Shaw. No.

Mr. Specter. Did you find any fragments of bullets in his chest?

Dr. Shaw. No; only fragments of shattered rib.

Mr. Specter. And did you find, or do you know whether any fragment was found in his wrist or the quantity of fragments in his wrist?

Dr. Shaw. It is my understanding that only foreign material from the suit of Governor Connally was found in the wrist, although in the X-ray of the wrist there appeared to be some minute metallic fragments in the wrist.

Mr. Specter. As to the wound on the back of Governor Connally, was there any indication that the bullet was tumbling prior to the time it struck him?

Dr. Shaw. I would only have to say that I'm not a ballistics expert, but the wound on his chest was not a single puncture wound, it was long enough so that there might have been some tumbling.

Mr. Specter. You mean the wound on his back?

Dr. Shaw. The wound on his back—yes, it was long enough so that there might have been some tumbling. In other words, it was not a spherical puncture wound.

Mr. Specter. So it might have had some tumbling involved, or it might not have?

Dr. Shaw. Yes; I don't know whether the clothes would have occasioned this or not.

Mr. Specter. My question would be that perhaps some tumbling might have been involved as a result of decrease in velocity as the bullet passed through President Kennedy, whether there was any indication from the surface of the wound which would indicate tumbling.

Dr. Shaw. The wound entrance was an elliptical wound. In other words, it had a long diameter and a short diameter. It didn't have the appearance of a wound caused by a high velocity bullet that had not struck anything else; in other words, a puncture wound.

Now, you have to also take into consideration, however, whether the bullet enters at a right angle or at a tangent. If it enters at a tangent there will be some length to the wound of entrance.

Mr. Specter. So, would you say in net that there could have been some tumbling occasioned by having it pass through another body or perhaps the oblique character of entry might have been occasioned by the angle of entry.

Dr. Shaw. Yes; either would have explained a wound of entry.

Mr. Specter. Fine, thank you very much, Doctor.

Dr. Shaw. Thank you.

TESTIMONY OF DR. CHARLES FRANCIS GREGORY

The testimony of Dr. Charles Francis Gregory was taken at 2:30 p.m., on March 23, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. Specter. May the record show that at the start of this session that I have here at the moment Dr. Charles Gregory, who has appeared here in response to a letter of request from the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy.

96 May I say to you, Dr. Gregory, that the purpose of the Commission is to investigate all facets relating to the assassination, including the wounding of President Kennedy, and the wounding of Governor Connally, and we have asked you to appear here for the purpose of testifying concerning your treatment of Governor Connally. Our rules specify that we make a brief statement of the purpose of the Commission, and the purpose of our calling on you.

Now, will you stand up and raise your right hand?

Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give before the President's Commission in this deposition proceeding will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Dr. Gregory. I do.

Mr. Specter. Will you state your full name for the record, please?

Dr. Gregory. Dr. Charles Francis Gregory.

Mr. Specter. And what is your profession, sir?

Dr. Gregory. I am a physician and surgeon.

Mr. Specter. Will you outline your educational background, please?

Dr. Gregory. Yes; I received a bachelor of science degree from Indiana University in 1941, and a doctor of medicine in 1944. I have completed 5 years of post-graduate training in orthopedic surgery at the Indiana University Medical Center in 1951. I remained there excepting for an interlude with the U.S. Navy in 1953 and 1954, until 1956. In 1956 I assumed my present position, which is that of professor of orthopedic surgery and chairman of the division of orthopedic surgery at the Southwestern Medical School, University of Texas.

Mr. Specter. Dr. Gregory, are you certified by the American Board?

Dr. Gregory. I am certified by the American Board of Orthopedic Surgery; yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. And what year were you so certified?

Dr. Gregory. In 1953. I am now a member of the American Board of Orthopedic Surgery, as a matter of fact.

Mr. Specter. Dr. Gregory, what experience, if any, have you had in the treatment of gunshot wounds?

Dr. Gregory. My experience with the treatment of gunshot wounds began with my training in orthopedic surgery, but its greatest impetus occurred in 1953 and 1954 in the Korean theatre of operations with the U.S. Navy. Since that time here at the Parkland Hospital in Dallas our service has attended a considerable number of such injuries, plus my experience is continuing.

Mr. Specter. Could you approximate the total number of gunshot wounds you have had experience with?

Dr. Gregory. I have had personal experience with, I suppose, in approximately 500 such missile wounds.

Mr. Specter. Dr. Gregory, back on November 22, 1963, did you have occasion to treat Governor Connally?

Dr. Gregory. I did.

Mr. Specter. Will you relate briefly the circumstances surrounding your call to treat the Governor?

Dr. Gregory. I had been seeing patients in the health service at the medical school building on the morning of November 22 and was there when word was received that the President had been shot. I did not then know that the Governor had also been injured. I came to the emergency room of Parkland Hospital and upon gaining entrance to it, inquired as to whether or not Mr. Kennedy's wounds were of a nature that would require my assistance.

I was advised that they were not. I then took a number of persons from the emergency room area with me away from it in order to reduce the confusion, and I went to the orthopedic ward on the fifth floor west of Parkland Hospital. After attending some of the patients on that ward, I was preparing to leave the hospital and went by the operating room area to see whether or not I could be of any other assistance, and was apprised then that a page was out for me. At that time Dr. Shaw advised me that Governor Connally had been wounded and that among his wounds were those to the right forearm and the left thigh. He had asked that I stay and attend those wounds after he had completed care of the Governor's chest wound.

97 Mr. Specter. At approximately what time did you have that conversation with Dr. Shaw?

Dr. Gregory. To the best of my knowledge, that conversation must have been about between 1 and 1:15 in the afternoon of November 22.

Mr. Specter. And that conversation was with Dr. Shaw?

Dr. Gregory. Dr. Robert Shaw.

Mr. Specter. Now, what part did Dr. Robert Shaw have in the treatment of Governor Connally in a general way?

Dr. Gregory. Well, Dr. Robert Shaw attended the most serious wound that the Governor sustained, which was one to his right chest, and it was his operation which took precedence over all others.

Mr. Specter. And, was that operation completed before your operation commenced?

Dr. Gregory. Yes; Dr. Shaw's operation had been completed before we even arranged the Governor's right arm and left thigh for definitive care.

Mr. Specter. At approximately what time did your operation of Governor Connally begin?

Dr. Gregory. My operation on Governor Connally began about 4 o'clock p.m. on Friday, November 22.

Mr. Specter. And approximately how long did it last?

Dr. Gregory. The better part of an hour—I should judge—45 to 50 minutes.

Mr. Specter. Who, if anyone, assisted you in that operation?

Dr. Gregory. I was assisted by the junior orthopedic resident, Dr. William Osborne, and the orthopedic intern, Dr. John Parker.

Mr. Specter. What was Governor Connally's condition when you first saw him with respect to his chest wounds, first, if you will, please tell us?

Dr. Gregory. I did not see Governor Connally myself until he had been taken into the operating room and had had an endotracheal tube placed in his larynx and had been anesthetized. Having accomplished this, the very precarious mechanics of respiration had been corrected and his general status at that time was quite satisfactory.

Mr. Specter. What observations did you have with respect to his wound in the chest?

Dr. Gregory. I had none, really, for the business of prepping and draping was underway at that time, and I did not intrude other than to observe very casually, and I don't remember any details of it.

Now, I did see in the course of the operation the wound in his chest, the wound of entry, and its posterior surface and the wound of exit on the anterior surface.

Mr. Specter. What did the wound of entry look like, Doctor?

Dr. Gregory. It appeared to me that the wound of entry was sort of a linear wound, perhaps three-quarters of an inch in length with a rounded central portion. Whereas, the wound of exit was rather larger than this, perhaps an inch and a half across.

Mr. Specter. And at approximately what part of the body was the wound that you described as the wound of entry?

Dr. Gregory. In view of the drapes that were on the Governor at the time, I will have to speculate, but as I recall best, it was in an area probably 2 inches below and medial to the right nipple.

Mr. Specter. Is that the wound of entry or exit?

Dr. Gregory. That's the wound of exit.

Mr. Specter. How about the wound of entry?

Dr. Gregory. The wound of entry was too obscure for me to identify, since it was just in general over the posterior aspect of his chest.

Mr. Specter. What did you observe with respect to the wound of his wrist?

Dr. Gregory. I didn't see the wound of his wrist until after the chest operation had been completed, because his arm was covered by the operation drapes, the surgical drapes for the chest procedure.

Mr. Specter. And when you did have an opportunity to observe the wound of the wrist, what did you then see?

Dr. Gregory. I observed the wound on the dorsal aspect of his wrist, which was about 2 cm. in length, ragged, somewhat irregular, and lay about an inch98 and a half or 2 inches above the wrist joint. It was a little to the radial side of the wrist area.

There was a second wound in the wrist on the volar surface, about a centimeter and a half proximal to the distal flexion crease and this wound was a transverse laceration no more than a centimeter in length and did not gape.

Mr. Specter. When you say on the dorsal aspect, what is that?

Dr. Gregory. In lay terms, that's equivalent to the back of the hand.

Mr. Specter. And the volar is equivalent to what?

Dr. Gregory. The palm surface of the hand.

Mr. Specter. What conclusion, if any, did you reach as to which was the wound of entry and exit on the wrist?

Dr. Gregory. Based on certain findings in the wound at the time the debridement was carried out——

Mr. Specter. Will you define debridement before you proceed with that?

Dr. Gregory. Yes; debridement is a surgical term used to designate that procedure in attending a wound which removes by sharp excision all nonvital tissue in the area together with any identifiable foreign objects.

In attending this wound, it was evident early that clot had been carried into the wound from the dorsal surface to the bone and into the fracture. This would imply that an irregular missile had passed through the wrist from the dorsal to the volar aspect.

Mr. Specter. Now, were there any characteristics in the volar aspect which would indicate that it was a wound of exit?

Dr. Gregory. No; there were none, really. It was my assumption that the missile had expended much of its remaining energy in passing through the radius bone, which it did before it could emerge through the soft tissues.

Mr. Specter. Did you observe any foreign objects identifiable as bits of fragments or portions of a bullet missile?

Dr. Gregory. A preliminary X-ray had indicated that there were metallic fragments or at least metallic fragments which cast metallic shadows in the soft tissues around the wounded forearm. Two or three of these were identified and were recovered and were observed to be metallic in consistency. These were turned over to appropriate authorities for further disposition.

Mr. Specter. Approximately how large were those fragments, Dr. Gregory?

Dr. Gregory. I would judge that they were first—flat, rather thin, and that their greatest dimension would probably not exceed one-eighth of an inch. They were very small.

Mr. Specter. Would you have sufficient experience with gunshot wounds to comment as to whether a 6.5-mm. bullet could have passed through the Governor's wrist in the way you have described, leaving the fragments which you have described and still have virtually all the bullet missile intact, or having 158 grains of a bullet at that time?

Dr. Gregory. Well, I am not an expert on ballistics, but one cannot escape certain ballistic implications in this business.

I would say, first of all, that how much of the missile remains intact as a mass depends to some extent on how hard the metal is. Obviously, if it is very soft, as lead, it may lose more fragments and therefore more weight and volume than it might if it is made of a harder material or is jacketed in some way.

Now, the energy in the missile is a product, not so much of its mass as it is of its velocity, for by doubling the velocity, you can increase the kinetic energy in the force it transmits, fourfold, since the formula for determining energy in these cases is a matter of mass times velocity squared, rather than just linear functional velocity. So, some knowledge of how much of the cartridge force might have been behind the missile would be useful here too.

Mr. Specter. For the purpose of this consideration, I am interested to know the the metal which you found in the wrist was of sufficient size so that the bullet which passed through the wrist could not have emerged virtually completely intact or with 158 grains intact, or whether the portions of the metallic fragments were so small that that would be consistent with having virtually the entire 6.5-mm. bullet emerge.

Dr. Gregory. Well, considering the small volume of metal as seen by X-ray, and the very small dimensions of the metal which was recovered, I think several99 such fragments could have been flaked off of a total missile mass without reducing its volume greatly.

Now, just how much, depends of course upon what the original missile weighed. In other words, on the basis of the metal left behind in Governor Connally's body, as far as I could tell, the missile that struck it could be virtually intact, insofar as mass was concerned, but probably was distorted.

Mr. Specter. Would you have any idea at all as to what the fragments which you observed in the Governor's wrist might weigh, Doctor?

Dr. Gregory. No, not really, but it would have been very small—very small.

Mr. Specter. What treatment or action did you take with respect to treating the Governor's wrist for him, Dr. Gregory?

Dr. Gregory. Upon completing the debridement, we were then faced with a decision as to whether we should suture his wound in the conventional manner or not, and we chose not to, leaving the wound open in deference to potential infection that might be produced by retained fragments of clothing. Having decided upon that course of action, the fractured radius bone was then manipulated into a reduced position and the entire limb was encased in a plaster-paris cast.

Mr. Specter. Did that complete your operative procedure?

Dr. Gregory. That completed my operative procedure for that day for Governor Connally—yes.

Mr. Specter. What other wounds, if any, did you notice on the Governor at that time?

Dr. Gregory. In addition to the chest wound and the wound just described in his right forearm there was a wound in the medical aspect of his left thigh. This was almost round and did not seem to have disturbed the tissues badly, but did definitely penetrate and pass through the skin and to the fascia beneath. I could not tell from the superficial inspection whether it had passed through the fascia. An X-ray was made of his thigh at that time and there was not present in his thigh any missile of sufficient magnitude, in my opinion, to have produced the wound observed on his medial aspect. Repeat X-rays failed to reveal any such missile and an additional examination failed to reveal any wound of exit.

Mr. Specter. What did the X-rays reveal with respect to the presence of a missile?

Dr. Gregory. In the thigh there was a very small shadow, perhaps 1 mm. by 2 mm. in dimension, lying close to the medial aspect of the femur, that is, the thigh bone, but was in my opinion much too small to have accounted for the dimensions of the wound on the medial aspect of his thigh or a wound of that character.

Mr. Specter. What were the dimensions of the wound on the medial aspect of his thigh.

Dr. Gregory. I would say that that wound was about a centimeter in diameter, much larger than the identifiable fragment of metal in the thigh. I might add that this prompted some speculation on our part, my part, which was voiced to someone that some search ought to be made in the Governor's clothing or perhaps in the auto or some place, wherever he may have been, for the missile which had produced this much damage but which was not resident in him.

Mr. Specter. Approximately what type of a missile would it have taken to produce a wound which you have described on his thigh?

Dr. Gregory. Well, it would take a fragment of metal of approximately the same diameter—a centimeter, and in general—round.

Mr. Specter. Would that correspond with the measurement of a 6.5-mm. missile?

Dr. Gregory. I will have to guess—I don't know what dimension—of a 6.5-mm.—yes, a 6.5-mm. would be .65 cm., approximately, yes, that could have very well have occurred from such a missile, yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. Dr. Gregory. I now show you two typewritten pages which are a portion of a document identified as Commission Exhibit No. 392, which in its total aspect constitutes all of the medical records from Parkland Hospital on President Kennedy and Governor Connally and the two pages to which I direct your attention relate an operation on Governor Connally, where you are100 listed as the surgeon, and I ask you if you will take a minute and look those over and tell us whether or not that is your report on the operation which you have just been describing.

Dr. Gregory. (Examining instrument referred to.) Yes, this appears to be the essence of the report which I dictated at the conclusion of my operation on Governor Connally.

Mr. Specter. And are the facts contained in this report the same as those to which you have testified here today?

Dr. Gregory. I think they are—I hope so.

Mr. Specter. Now, will you describe in a general way what treatment you have given Governor Connally following the time when you completed this report on November 22, 1963?

Dr. Gregory. The Governor remained in Parkland Hospital for some 2 weeks after his admission. On the 5th day after the operation, in the Governor's hospital room, the wound on the dorsal surface of his wrist was closed by wire sutures and this was carried out in the room. On the 10th day, I believe it was, the 10th day from injury, the Governor was taken back to the operating room and there under a light general anesthesia, his wounds were dressed and inspected, and a new plaster of paris cast was applied at that time.

The Governor was then permitted up and about with his arm in a sling, and shortly thereafter returned to the Governor's Mansion in Austin. I visited Governor Connally in the Governor's Mansion in Austin about 1 week after his discharge from the hospital, simply for check-up examination and I found things to be in a satisfactory state.

I saw the Governor again about 1 month after his discharge, in the office of Dr. Robert A. Dennison in Austin, Tex., and another examination this time, including an X-ray, was made, and again the condition of his right forearm and of the fractured bone were considered to be satisfactory.

Now, I've got to think of the next date—off of the record or on as you wish—

Mr. Specter. All right, we will go off of the record, Doctor, while you are thinking that through.

Dr. Gregory. All right.

(Discussion between Counsel Specter and the Witness Gregory off the record.)

Mr. Specter. All right, Dr. Gregory.

Dr. Gregory. I'll say on or about February 14, the Governor came to Dallas and on that occasion we removed his cast, obtained an X-ray, found his fracture to be healing satisfactorily, and so we applied a new cast. The Governor wore that cast until 1 week ago, when he again came to Dallas. The cast was removed, and X-ray revealed satisfactory healing of his fracture, and the cast, as a continuous form of treatment, was discontinued.

At the present time the Governor is on a regiment of exercises, and he wears a demountable splint, whenever it looks as though the electorate may be over enthusiastic by shaking his hand.

Mr. Specter. Do you anticipate any future cast for Governor Connally?

Dr. Gregory. I anticipate probably an uneventful, though slow, recovery of normal function in his right arm and wrist and hand.

I think he will have some permanent impairment, but I think he will have a very minimal amount of disability, and I do not at this time anticipate any need for any further surgical intervention. That will have to become manifest by the appearance of some other as yet unanticipated symptom.

I would like to add that on each of the examination interviews here in Dallas, the Governor was also checked over by Dr. Robert Shaw, from the point of view of recovery from his chest wound.

Mr. Specter. Dr. Gregory, I now show you a series of diagrams which are a part of reports bearing Commission No. 326 and may the record show these differ from Commission Exhibit numbers, reflecting the number assigned to reports.

I am going to ask the Court Reporter to mark this particular copy as Dr. Gregory's Exhibit No. 1.

(Instrument marked by the Reporter as Dr. Gregory's Exhibit No. 1, for identification.)

101 Mr. Specter. I am going to ask you, pointing first to Diagram No. 1, whether or not this accurately depicts the wounds of Governor Connally?

Dr. Gregory. This one does not.

Mr. Specter. In what respect?

Dr. Gregory. In the respect that the wound of entry is shown to exist on the volar surface of the forearm, whereas, it was on the dorsal surface of the forearm in my view—in my opinion—and the reverse holds for the wound of exit.

Mr. Specter. Will you take my pen and correct those as they should be, Doctor Gregory?

Dr. Gregory. (Complied with request of Counsel Specter.)

Mr. Specter. Now, turning to Exhibit, Diagram No. 2 on this exhibit, and calling your attention specifically to the point of entry and the point of exit on the diagram of a man standing, does that correspond with the angle of declination on Governor Connally's wound?

Dr. Gregory. To the best of my knowledge, this would fairly accurately depict that angle. If I were to have any reservation at all, it would be with reference to the height or the position of the wounds of entry, as being marked a little high, but this is recalling from memory, and it may not be correct.

Mr. Specter. I now call your attention to Diagram No. 3 on this sequence and ask if this accurately depicts the condition of the Governor's wounds?

Dr. Gregory. I think that this one comes more closely into line with their actual location, especially with reference to the wound of entry in the posterior aspect of the chest. It is a little lower here, as I recall it to be. Those of the wrist, I think are accurately depicted, and that of the thigh are believed to be accurately depicted.

Mr. Specter. And on these wrist wounds, do they show the point of entry to be on the dorsal aspect and the point of exit to be on the volar aspect?

Dr. Gregory. According to the anatomical position, I believe that they do; yes.

Mr. Specter. Now, looking at Diagram No. 4, does this again correspond with your recollection of the angle of decline on Governor Connally?

Dr. Gregory. Again, if I have a reservation it would be to the wound of entry and the posterior aspect as being shown a little higher than it actually existed.

Mr. Specter. Now, Dr. Gregory, I turn to Diagram No. 5, which depicts a seated man and what does Diagram No. 5 depict to your eye with respect to what action is described on the seated man?

Dr. Gregory. Well, I should say that this composite has alined the several parts of the body demonstrated in such a way that a single missile following a constant trajectory could have accounted for all of the wounds which are shown.

Moreover, this is consistent with the point of entry which is depicted on the side views showing the angle of declination. I submit that the angle of declination in passing through the chest could be very simply altered by having an individual lean forward a few degrees, and similarly could be made much deeper by having him lean backward, without really changing the basic relationship between the parts, nor in any way affecting the likelihood that all parts could have come into this same trajectory.

Mr. Specter. Would you consider it possible, in your professional opinion, for the same bullet to have inflicted all of the wounds which you have described on Governor Connally?

Dr. Gregory. Yes; I believe it very possible, for a number of reasons. One of these—is the apparent loss of energy manifested at each of the various body surfaces, which I transected, the greatest energy being at the point of entry on the posterior aspect of the chest and of the fifth rib, where considerable destruction was done and the least destruction having been done in the medial aspect of the thigh where the bullet apparently expended itself.

Mr. Specter. What destruction was done on the fifth rib, Dr. Gregory?

Dr. Gregory. It is my understanding from conversations with Dr. Shaw, and I believe his medical reports bear this out, that the fifth rib was literally shattered by the missile.

102 We know that high velocity bullets striking bone have a strong tendency to shatter bones and the degree to which the fifth rib was shattered was considerably in excess of the amount of shattering which occurred in the radius—the forearm.

Mr. Specter. And what conclusion, if any, did you draw as to the velocity of the missile, as to the time it struck each of those bony portions?

Dr. Gregory. I think that the missile was continually losing velocity with each set of tissues which it encountered and transected, and the amount of damage done is progressively less from first entrance in the thorax to the last entrance in the thigh.

Mr. Specter. Do you think it possible that Governor Connally was shot by two bullets, with one hitting in the posterior part of his body and the second one striking the back side of his wrist?

Dr. Gregory. The possibility exists, but I would discount it for these reasons—ordinarily, a missile in flight—I'll qualify that—a high velocity missile in flight does not tend to carry organic material into the wound which it creates.

I believe if you will inspect the record which was prepared by Dr. Shaw, there is no indication that any clothing or other organic material was found in the chest wound.

An irregular missile can carry debris into a wound and such debris was carried into the wound of the wrist.

I would have expected that an undistorted high velocity missile striking the wrist would not have carried material into it.

Mr. Specter. Was there any other characteristic which led and leads you to conclude that the wrist was not the initial point of impact of a single high velocity bullet?

Dr. Gregory. Yes. Based on our experience with high velocity missile wounds of the forearm produced by rifles of the deer hunting calibre, there is tremendous soft tissue destruction as well as bone fragmentation which not infrequently culminates in amputation of the part.

I do not believe that the missile wound in Governor Connally's right forearm was produced by a missile of such magnitude at the time it struck him. It either had to be one of lower initial energy or a missile which had been partially expended elsewhere before it struck his wrist.

Mr. Specter. Would that opinion apply if you assumed that the missile had initial velocity when leaving the muzzle of the weapon of 200 feet per second?

Dr. Gregory. That's not a very high velocity missile.

Mr. Specter. Pardon me—2,000 feet per second.

Dr. Gregory. I should say that a missile at 2,000 feet per second that strikes the forearm is likely to blow it very nearly off, if it is a missile of any mass as well.

Mr. Specter. Well, assume that you have a muzzle velocity of 2,000 feet per second and assume the mass is 6.5 mm., and assume further that the distance between the muzzle and the wrist is approximately 160 to 250 feet away, what would you expect, based on your experience, that the consequences would be on that wrist?

Dr. Gregory. I will have to say that most of the high velocity rifle wounds that I have seen of the forearm have, in fact, been at a closer range than that which you have stipulated, but I doubt that a range of 155 or 200 feet would seriously reduce the energy, and I would expect a similar wound, under the circumstances which you have described.

Mr. Specter. Let me add another possibility in this sequence, Dr. Gregory, and ask you your opinion with respect to an additional intervening victim in the path of the same bullet to this effect—assume that President Kennedy was riding in an open automobile directly behind Governor Connally, and that at a distance of approximately 175 feet President Kennedy was struck by a bullet from a weapon with a muzzle velocity of 2,000 feet per second, carrying a 6.5 mm. missile and that the missile entered in the upper right of the President's back very near the neckline and passed through his body, striking no bony material, and emerged from the throat of the President. Is it possible that missile could have then entered the back of the Governor and inflicted the chest wound which you have described?

103 Dr. Gregory. I would have to concede that that would be possible—yes.

Mr. Specter. What would your professional opinion be, if you can formulate one, as to whether or not that actually did happen in this situation?

Dr. Gregory. I really couldn't formulate an objective opinion about it. Only, for this reason, that it would then become a question simply of trajectories, and lining the two bodies up in such a way that this sequence of events could have occurred. I would hazard one guess, that is, that had the missile that struck Governor Connally passed through President Kennedy first, that though the missile would not have been distorted necessarily, it would very probably have begun to tumble. Now, if you like, I will define that for you.

Mr. Specter. Would you please?

Dr. Gregory. A tumbling is a second—it actually is a third component of motion that a missile may go through in its trajectory. First, there is a linear motion from muzzle to target on point of impact. In order to keep a missile on its path, there is imparted to it a rotary motion so that it is spinning. Now, both of these are commensurate with the constant trajectory. A third component, which is tumbling, and is literally the end over end motion, which may be imparted to a missile should it strike something in flight that deflects but does not stop it—in this circumstance the wound of entry created by such a missile usually is quite large and the destruction it creates is increased, as a matter of fact, by such tumbling, and I would have therefore expected to see perhaps some organic material carried into a large wound of entry in Governor Connally's back.

These are only theoretical observations, but these are some of the reasons why I would believe that the missile in the Governor behaved as though it had never struck anything except him.

Mr. Specter. Did you observe the nature of the wound in the Governor's back?

Dr. Gregory. Only so far as I saw it as Dr. Shaw was preparing to operate on it, but I was unable to see the nature of the wound as he carried out his operation. I did, however, specifically question him about this matter of containing foreign material, clothing, etc.

Mr. Specter. What did he say about that?

Dr. Gregory. Well, as I recall it, he said none was found, and I would not have expected any to be found as I explained to you, if this was the initial impact of that missile.

Mr. Specter. Well, wouldn't you think it possible, bearing in mind that my last question only went as to whether the same bullet could have gone through President Kennedy and inflicted the wound on Governor Connolly's chest, would you think it possible that the same missile could have gone through President Kennedy in the way I described and have inflicted all three of the wounds, that is, the entry and exit on the chest, the entry and exit on the wrist, and the entry into the thigh which you described.

Dr. Gregory. I suspect it's possible, but I would say it would have to be a remarkably powerful missile to have done so.

Mr. Specter. Dr. Gregory, have you been interviewed about this matter prior to today by any representative of the Federal Government?

Dr. Gregory. Yes; on two or three occasions I have talked to a properly identified member of the Secret Service, Mr. Warren, I believe it was.

Mr. Specter. And what was the nature of the information which you gave to Mr. Warren on those occasions?

Dr. Gregory. Essentially the same thing as I have told you here, but in much less detail.

Mr. Specter. And have you ever talked to anyone besides Mr. Warren and me about these matters, from the Federal Government?

Dr. Gregory. No; not that I know of. I was on a day or so after the assassination spoken to in these offices by a member of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, but it was a very brief interview.

Mr. Specter. What was that about?

Dr. Gregory. And I think it was the question of whether or not I had been able to recover any metal from Governor Connally which they might use for ballistic analysis.

104 I regret to say I don't know the gentleman's name, but he too was properly identified.

Mr. Specter. And prior to the time when the Court Reporter started to transcribe the deposition which you have been kind enough to provide us with, had you and I been talking about the same subjects which you have answered questions on all during the course of this deposition?

Dr. Gregory. Yes.

Mr. Specter. And during the time that you first were interviewed by the Secret Service down through the present moment, have you had the same general opinion concerning the matters which you have testified about here today?

Dr. Gregory. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Do you have anything to add which you think would be helpful in any way to the work of the Commission?

Dr. Gregory. No; not really. This is the only articulation I have had with this whole episode concerning Governor Connally's wound and his subsequent recovery and none other.

Mr. Specter. Thank you very much, Dr. Gregory, for coming.

Dr. Gregory. Very well.

TESTIMONY OF DR. GEORGE T. SHIRES

The testimony of Dr. George T. Shires was taken at 4:35 p.m., on March 23, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. Specter. Let the record show that as we are reconvening this session and about to commence the deposition of Dr. George T. Shires, that the preliminary statement is being made that this is pursuant to the investigation being conducted by the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy to determine all the facts relating to the shooting, including the treatment rendered to Governor Connally as well as President Kennedy, and that Dr. Shires has appeared here today in response to a letter of request from the President's Commission to testify concerning his knowledge of the treatment which he and other medical personnel at Parkland Hospital performed on Governor Connally.

Will you rise, please, Dr. Shires and raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you will give before the President's Commission in this deposition proceeding will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Dr. Shires. I do.

Mr. Specter. Would you state your full name, please, for the record?

Dr. Shires. George Thomas Shires.

Mr. Specter. And what is your profession, sir?

Dr. Shires. Professor of Surgery and Chairman of the Department of Surgery, University of Texas, Southwestern Medical School.

Mr. Specter. And you are a medical doctor by profession, I assume?

Dr. Shires. Yes; M.D.

Mr. Specter. Would you outline briefly your educational background?

Dr. Shires. Undergraduate education at the University of Texas in Austin, Tex.; graduate medical education at the University of Texas, Southwestern Medical School in Dallas; internship, Massachusetts Memorial Hospital in Boston, Mass.; surgical residency—Parkland Memorial Hospital in Dallas, Tex.; two tours of active duty in the United States Navy, first as research investigator at the Naval Medical Research Institute, National Naval Medical Center, Bethesda, Md.; second as Associate Surgeon, United States Naval Hospital Ship Haven—do you want staff positions?

Mr. Specter. Please, give me those, as well.

105 Dr. Shires. Subsequently, Clinical Instructor in Surgery, University of Texas, Southwestern Medical School, progressing through Assistant Professor of Surgery, Associate Professor of Surgery, Professor of Surgery, and Chairman of the Department of Surgery.

Mr. Specter. What was your year of graduation from college, Dr. Shires?

Dr. Shires. This was premedical, and at that time the war was on, so it was a premedical 3 years—it was 1944.

Mr. Specter. And what year did you receive your medical degree?

Dr. Shires. 1948.

Mr. Specter. Are you Board certified at the present time?

Dr. Shires. Yes.

Mr. Specter. And, in what year were you so certified?

Dr. Shires. I was certified by the American Board of Surgery in 1956.

Mr. Specter. Did you have occasion to render any medical treatment for President Kennedy back on November 22, 1963?

Dr. Shires. No; I was not in town at the time the shooting occurred. I was in Galveston, Tex., at the meeting of the Western Surgical Association.

Mr. Specter. Did you have occasion to render medical attention and services to Governor Connally, Dr. Shires?

Dr. Shires. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Will you state briefly the circumstances under which you were called into this case?

Dr. Shires. After the President and the Governor were brought to Parkland Hospital, it was determined—well—all aid was given to the President that was available, and it was determined that Governor Connally's injuries were multiple, the primary injury to Governor Connally was to the chest.

Dr. Shaw, who is the professor of surgery—I don't need to tell their titles—you will have all that?

Mr. Specter. Yes—correct.

Dr. Shires. Dr. Shaw ascertained the condition of Governor Connally, instituted therapy, and had the hospital notify me in Galveston of the status of the President and also the Governor.

Mr. Specter. Were you able to return then to Dallas in time to assist in the operative procedures on Governor Connally?

Dr. Shires. Yes.

Mr. Specter. And at approximately what time did you return to Dallas?

Dr. Shires. Approximately 3 p.m.

Mr. Specter. And what participation did you have in the operative procedures on Governor Connally?

Dr. Shires. At the time I returned, the chest procedure was in progress. The orthopedic procedure on the arm and the leg debridement were ready to be started. I scrubbed and performed the leg procedure.

Mr. Specter. What did you observe, if anything, as to the condition of Governor Connally's chest wound?

Dr. Shires. At the time I arrived, the chest wound had been debrided and was being closed. His general condition at that point was very good. He was receiving blood and the arm and leg wounds were being prepared for surgery.

Mr. Specter. Did you have any opportunity to observe the wound on his back?

Dr. Shires. Not at that time.

Mr. Specter. Did you have any opportunity to observe a wound on his chest?

Dr. Shires. Once again, not at that time—later, but not at that time.

Mr. Specter. Well, what did you observe at a later time concerning the wound on his back and on his chest?

Dr. Shires. Well, in part of his postoperative care, which was a large part of the treatment, we were concerned, of course, with all the wounds, and he had several chest wounds. These, at the time I saw them, had been debrided and were the site of draining, so that their initial appearance was completely altered by having had surgical debridement, so they were clean postsurgical wounds with drainage, at the time I first saw them.

106 Mr. Specter. Would their alteration and condition preclude you from giving an opinion as to whether they were points of entry or points of exit?

Dr. Shires. They would—really.

Mr. Specter. What did you observe at the time you arrived at the hospital as to the condition of his wrist, if anything?

Dr. Shires. At that point his wrist was being prepared for surgery, and although I did not examine this in detail, since I was concerned with the thigh wound, there appeared to be a through and through wound of the wrist which looked like a missile wound.

Mr. Specter. Were you able to formulate any opinion as to the point of entry or the point of exit?

Dr. Shires. No; since I didn't examine it in detail; no, not really.

Mr. Specter. And what did you observe as to the wound on the thigh?

Dr. Shires. The wound on the thigh was a peculiar one. There was a 1 cm. puncate missile wound over the junction of the middle and lower third of the leg and the medial aspect of the thigh. The peculiarity came in that the X-rays of the left leg showed only a very small 1 mm. bullet fragment imbedded in the femur of the left leg. Upon exploration of this wound, the other peculiarity was that there was very little soft tissue damage, less than one would expect from an entrance wound of a centimeter in diameter, which was seen on the skin. So, it appeared, therefore, that the skin wound was either a tangential wound or that a larger fragment had penetrated or stopped in the skin and had subsequently fallen out of the entrance wound.

Mr. Specter. What size fragment was there in the Governor's leg at that time?

Dr. Shires. We recovered none. The small one that was seen was on X-ray and it was still in the femur and being that small, with no tissue damage after the debridement, it was thought inadvisable to remove this small fragment.

Mr. Specter. Is that fragment in the bone itself at the present time?

Dr. Shires. Yes.

Mr. Specter. What would your best estimate be as to the size of that fragment?

Dr. Shires. One millimeter in diameter—one to two.

Mr. Specter. Would you have any estimate as to how much that might weigh in grains?

Dr. Shires. In grains—a fraction of a grain, maybe, a tenth of a grain—very small.

Mr. Specter. A tenth of one grain?

Dr. Shires. Yes.

Mr. Specter. What size bullet would it take to create the punctate hole which you described in the thigh?

Dr. Shires. This would depend entirely on the angle and the speed and weight of the bullet. For example, a small missile on a tangent may create a surprisingly large defect. A large bullet with fast or a relatively slow velocity will create the same defect.

Mr. Specter. What operative procedures did you employ?

Dr. Shires. Progressive debridement from skin, fat, fascia, muscle, irrigation, and through and through enclosure with stainless steel alloy wire and removable sutures.

Mr. Specter. Does that complete a general description of what you did to Governor Connally?

Dr. Shires. In the operating room, yes.

Mr. Specter. Approximately what time did that operation start?

Dr. Shires. Approximately 1 o'clock.

Mr. Specter. The operation that you were concerned with?

Dr. Shires. Oh, the operation that I was concerned with must have started at 3:30 or 4 o'clock, I guess it was.

Mr. Specter. And about what time did it end?

Dr. Shires. My portion of it—about 20 minutes later.

Mr. Specter. And who, if anyone, assisted you in that portion of the operation?

Dr. Shires. Doctors Robert McClelland, Charles Baxter, and Ralph Don Patman.

Mr. Specter. Dr. Shires, I am showing you a document identified heretofore107 as Commission Exhibit No. 392, which is the report of Parkland Hospital on the treatment of President Kennedy and Governor Connally, and I show you a Parkland Memorial Hospital operative record, dated November 22, 1963, which lists you as the surgeon, and ask you whether or not this represents the report made by you on the operative procedures on Governor Connally?

Dr. Shires. Yes; it does.

Mr. Specter. And, are those the same as the matters which you have heretofore described during the course of this deposition as to what you did?

Dr. Shires. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Now, what treatment, if any, have you performed on Governor Connally subsequent to November 22?

Dr. Shires. A tremendous amount—postoperative care was of the essence here in that he had multiple injuries, massive blood and fluid replacement, so that to describe the care is really a detail of postoperative—I don't know how much of this you want—in other words, he had clotting defects—I don't know whether you want to take this down—I just want to ask you how much detail you would like?

Mr. Specter. Start off with a general description—perhaps, I will direct your attention to some specific areas to abbreviate it.

First of all, how frequently did you see him after November 22, 1963?

Dr. Shires. For the first several days I saw him approximately every 2 to 4 hours for an hour or so each visit, and many times for 6 and 8 hours at a stretch.

Mr. Specter. And after that time how frequently did you see him?

Dr. Shires. Decreasing frequency over the next 3 weeks—never less than three or four times a day, even after he was convalescing.

Mr. Specter. How long was he in the hospital?

Dr. Shires. I don't really know the number of days he was in the hospital.

Mr. Specter. After he left the hospital, have you seen him?

Dr. Shires. Yes; I saw him again approximately 2 weeks, I guess it was, after he left the hospital, in Austin. He developed a superficial saphenous thrombophlebitis in the right leg, not the one that the injury occurred in. This was undoubtedly incident to a catheter cutdown having been placed in this leg for administration of blood and fluids while he was in the hospital. He unequivocably had a clot in the saphenous vein and at this time was placed on bed rest, antibiotics, anticoagulants and responded very satisfactorily.

Mr. Specter. Do you anticipate seeing him in the future?

Dr. Shires. Do I?

Mr. Specter. Yes.

Dr. Shires. Not for his wounds. No—the only followup care that he really requires at the moment is the bone—the orthopedic followup, which incidentally is also completely healed.

Mr. Specter. Doctor, look, if you will, at a document which we have marked Dr. Gregory X-1, used in the course of the deposition of Dr. Gregory, which immediately preceded yours and directing your attention first to Diagram Number 1, would the entry and exit holes on Governor Connally's back and chest, being entry and exit, respectively, and the exit and entry on the wrist with the entry being on the back side of the wrist and the exit on the front side of the wrist, correspond with your observations of Governor Connally?

Dr. Shires. Yes; they would.

Mr. Specter. Now, going to Diagram 2, which depicts a man standing, would that correspond to the angle of the entry and exit wounds?

Dr. Shires. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Now, going to Diagram No. 3, would that diagram correspond with the wounds on Governor Connally as you recollect them to be?

Dr. Shires. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Going now to Diagram 4, would that again correspond with the wounds on Governor Connally?

Dr. Shires. Yes.

Mr. Specter. And as to Diagram No. 5, what does that represent?

Dr. Shires. This, at the time of the discussion of Governor Connally's injuries with his wife, before he really regained consciousness from surgery, was the108 apparent position that he was in in the car, which would explain one missile producing all three wounds.

Mr. Specter. Did you have a discussion with Mrs. Connally?

Dr. Shires. Yes; with Mrs. Connally.

Mr. Specter. And when was that discussion?

Dr. Shires. Right after the surgery—this was the 22d, late in the afternoon.

Mr. Specter. And what, if anything, did she tell you as to the Governor's position?

Dr. Shires. She had thought, and I think correctly so, that he had turned to his right after he heard the first shot, apparently, to see what had happened to the President, and he then later confirmed this, that he heard the first shot, turned to his right, and then was hit.

I forgot about that a moment ago, incidentally. He definitely remembers turning after hearing the first shot, before he was struck with a bullet. I forgot about that.

Mr. Specter. When did Governor Connally tell you that?

Dr. Shires. Oh, several days later.

Mr. Specter. While he was in the hospital?

Dr. Shires. Oh, yes—4 or 5 days later and we were constructing the events.

Mr. Specter. What was the occasion for your conversation with him?

Dr. Shires. In part of his routine care one morning, as he was reconstructing his memory of events, because his memory was quite hazy, since he had a sucking wound of the chest and came in here relatively in anoxia, he had some cyanosis, as you know.

Mr. Specter. What is cyanosis?

Dr. Shires. Not enough oxygen of the tissues and this means they turn blue.

Mr. Specter. Would that affect his memory?

Dr. Shires. Yes; sure would and did, and he remembers very little after he fell over in the car—he is very hazy, until, oh, probably the second day post-operatively.

Mr. Specter. Would that affect his memory as to what happened before the wound?

Dr. Shires. No.

Mr. Specter. Or, would that affect only his memory while he was suffering from lack of oxygen?

Dr. Shires. Probably just while he was suffering from lack of oxygen. He didn't have that much hypoxia. Hypoxia or anoxia or lack of oxygen could affect his memory. Had this been severe, this could have affected his memory for preceding events, but his hypoxia fortunately did not last that long, and he never showed real evidence of brain damage from the anoxia, so that I think his memory for events up until the time he recalls falling over in the car is probably accurate.

Mr. Specter. Would you relate just as exactly as you can for us what he said to you, and the nature of the conversation, with your replies, and how it went as closely as you can recount it now?

Dr. Shires. He recounted, and as I remember this particular occasion, Mrs. Connally was in the room too, and reconstructing events, she related the story of her last conversation with the President, relating to him, that the reception had been warm and that she was glad he couldn't say that people of Texas and in Dallas didn't like him and admire him, and she was very pleased with the way things had gone the whole visit. Then, the next event that occurred was that she remembers hearing a shot, he remembered hearing a shot—he remembers turning to the right, he remembered being struck by a bullet, and his next thought as he fell over toward his wife was "They're going to kill all of us," and that's the last really clear memory that he expressed to me until he remembers vaguely being in the emergency room, but very little of that, and then he remembers waking up in the recovery room several hours later.

Mr. Specter. Did he say anything to you about who he meant by "they"?

Dr. Shires. He didn't say—he didn't comment on it at all.

Mr. Specter. Did he describe the nature of the sound which he heard?

Dr. Shires. I don't believe he did—no.

109 Mr. Specter. Did anybody describe the nature of the sound?

Dr. Shires. I think Mrs. Connally did. I think she thought it was, if I'm not wrong, she thought it was a loud retort, either a gun or a firecracker. I think she thought it was a bullet and I think he did too—thought it was a gun—I believe he did too.

Mr. Specter. Now, did Governor Connally say anything about hearing President Kennedy say anything?

Dr. Shires. No—no, he didn't.

Mr. Specter. Did Mrs. Connally say anything about whether President Kennedy said anything?

Dr. Shires. No, she didn't. She remembered Mrs. Kennedy saying some things, but she didn't remember anything about the President having uttered a word.

Mr. Specter. What did Mrs. Kennedy say, according to Mrs. Connally?

Dr. Shires. Oh, it's vague, even in my memory, but things to the effect that her husband had been shot and—well, that was really the essence of it. It wasn't phrased that way.

Mr. Specter. Focusing on the time sequence—what did Governor Connally say as to the timing, number one, the time he was hit, and number two, the time he had heard a sound, and number three, the time he turned—those three factors? In what sequence did he relate them?

Dr. Shires. As he recalled it, he heard a shot, he turned to the right and felt himself receiving a shot—in that order—in a matter of a few seconds.

Mr. Specter. Where did he feel himself receive a shot?

Dr. Shires. In the right chest.

Mr. Specter. Did he make any comment about feeling anything in his wrist?

Dr. Shires. No; I don't believe he did.

Mr. Specter. How about feeling anything in his thigh?

Dr. Shires. I don't believe he ever commented on that to me.

Mr. Specter. Did he say anything else to you at that time about his recollections on the day of the assassination?

Dr. Shires. No; other than this striking feeling he had after he was hit, that someone was trying to kill all of them—apparently he remembers that quite clearly, right after he was hit, but that's all.

Mr. Specter. Did you discuss his recollection of the events of the assassination day with Governor Connally on any other occasion?

Dr. Shires. Oh, yes; sporadically, during his convalescence.

Mr. Specter. What else did he say to you at any other time?

Dr. Shires. He was just simply asking questions about things that happened to him in the Emergency Room, in the Operating Room, and he was a little surprised that he didn't recall them better, but this was after he was wounded in here, but that was really the main thing—he was surprised that he didn't remember some of the things—like the cutdowns for blood and that sort of thing that were done to him, and, of course, this is obviously because he was so anoxic at the time.

Mr. Specter. Did he ever describe anything in more detail in his recollection of the things on the day of the assassination?

Dr. Shires. No.

Mr. Specter. Now, going back to the first conversation you had with Mrs. Connally on November 22d, did she say anything more to you other than that which you have already testified about?

Dr. Shires. No—those were mainly the remarks that she made. I don't remember any others, except—well, no—most of the others were—we were discussing the Governor's condition and outlook and chances for recovery and that sort of thing.

Mr. Specter. Now, looking again at Diagram No. 5, what is your professional opinion, if you have one, as to whether Governor Connally's chest injury, wrist injury, and thigh injury were caused by the same bullet?

Dr. Shires. Well we all thought, me included, that this was probably one missile, one bullet.

Mr. Specter. When you say "we all thought," whom do you mean by that?

Dr. Shires. Dr. Shaw, Dr. Gregory—as we were reconstructing the events110 in the operating room in an attempt to plot out trajectory as best we could, this appeared to be our opinion.

Mr. Specter. Did any of your assistants consult with you in those calculations?

Dr. Shires. I guess nearly all of them we have listed.

Mr. Specter. Dr. McClelland, Dr. Baxter and Dr. Patman?

Dr. Shires. Yes.

Mr. Specter. How about Dr. Osborne and Dr. Parker?

Dr. Shires. They were working with Dr. Gregory. If they discussed it, I'm sure they did—it was before I got there.

Mr. Specter. How about Dr. Boland and Dr. Duke who worked with Dr. Shaw?

Dr. Shires. Now, again, I talked to them and they were discussing it as they did the chest procedure, and again thought the same thing. Everyone was under the impression this was one missile—through and through the chest, through and through the arm and the thigh.

Mr. Specter. Was there any one of the doctors on either of these three teams who had a different point of view?

Dr. Shires. Not that I remember.

Mr. Specter. Do you think it is possible that Governor Connally could have been struck by two bullets, one entering his back and emerging from his chest and the second going into his wrist?

Dr. Shires. I'm sure it is possible, because missile sites are so variable, depending upon the size of the bullet, the speed at which it travels, whether it was tumbling or not. We have seen all kinds of combinations of entrance and exit wounds and it's just impossible to state with any certainty, looking at a given wound, what the nature of the missile was, so I am sure it is possible.

Mr. Specter. Do you think it is possible that, assuming a missile being a bullet 6.5 mm. with a velocity of over 2,000 feet per second, and the distance between the weapon and the victim being approximately 160 to 250 feet, that the same bullet might have passed through President Kennedy, entering his back near the midline and emerging from his neck, and then entering Governor Connally in the back and emerging from his chest, into his wrist, through his wrist and into the thigh?

Dr. Shires. I assume that it would be possible. The main thing that would make me think that this was not the case in that he remembers so distinctly hearing a shot and having turned prior to the time he was hit, and in the position he must have been, particularly here in Figure 5, I think it's obvious that he did turn rather sharply to the right and this would make me think that it was a second shot, but this is purely conjecture, of course.

Mr. Specter. Well, is there anything, aside from what he told you, that is, anything in the characteristics of the wounds on President Kennedy and the wounds on Governor Connally which would lead you to conclude that it was not the same bullet?

Dr. Shires. No—there is nothing. It could have been—purely from the standpoint of the wounds, it is possible.

Mr. Specter. You referred just a minute ago to his turning position?

Dr. Shires. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Is the postulation of a turning by Governor Connally necessary to explain the point of entry in the back, exit in the chest, entry in the wrist, and exit in the wrist, and entry into the thigh, in order to have that line—to state it differently, is it necessary to postulate turning by the Governor?

Dr. Shires. Depending upon the angle of the trajectory—I suppose not. I don't know what the angle of the trajectory was from where the bullet was fired.

Mr. Specter. Assuming an angle of declination of approximately 45 degrees?

Dr. Shires. This, I don't know without drawing it out, but as long as his right arm is drawn in front of him next to the exit wound on the chest, he is in a sitting position, if the angle of declination was right, then I think he could have received this facing straight forward.

Mr. Specter. Now, on the wrist, would that be palm of the wrist, back of the wrist, or how?

111 Dr. Shires. I don't understand.

Mr. Specter. In what position would the wrist have had to be in, in order to have the same bullet make all three wounds?

Dr. Shires. The main point was that his arm be up here. In other words, in some fashion, however his hand happened to be turned, but he had to have his right arm raised up, next to his chest.

Mr. Specter. His wrist would have to be up with the palm down, would it not?

Dr. Shires. As depicted here.

Mr. Specter. In order for the point of entry to be on the dorsal side?

Dr. Shires. That's right, again, which makes it a little more likely he was turning, since ordinarily you pronate your wrist as you turn, whereas, this would have been a little strange for him to have been sitting like this, but again, depending on what he had in his hand. It's just a question of which side is up.

Mr. Specter. But it would be more natural, you say, for the palm to be down in the turning, which was as contrasted with a relaxed sitting position where it would be more likely his palm would be facing in towards his chest area?

Dr. Shires. Right.

Mr. Specter. Do you have any knowledge as to the damage which was done to the rib?

Dr. Shires. Only from hearsay from Dr. Shaw, that's all.

Mr. Specter. Do you have any knowledge as to what fragments there were in the chest, bullet fragments, if any?

Dr. Shires. No, again except from postoperative X-rays, there is a small fragment remaining, but the initial fragments I think Dr. Shaw saw before I arrived.

Mr. Specter. How about the fragments in the wrist, do you have any knowledge of that?

Dr. Shires. Again, there were small fragments which I saw during the procedure on the wrist, but I was not directly involved in that procedure.

Mr. Specter. What opinion do you have, if any, Dr. Shires, as to whether the wound in the thigh might have been inflicted from a missile that did not pass through any other part of the Governor's body, assuming that it was a 6.5-mm. bullet with a muzzle velocity of 2,000 feet per second, traveling approximately 160 to 250 feet between the end of the weapon and the point of impact on the thigh?

Dr. Shires. Well, again, in that wound—it was strange in that the hole in the skin was too large for the amount of damage inflicted on the underlying tissues, so that had this been the case, this would have had to have been a tangential wound. Had it been a tangential wound, then it's possible that small fragments could have gone into bone as it did and that the damage to the soft tissues was done only by that small fragment, so that the major portion of the bullet simply hit the skin in a tangent and went on in its course elsewhere.

Mr. Specter. Well, is it possible that the bullet could have hit Governor Connally with the thigh being the initial point of impact and do the damage which was done there with the high velocity missile that I have just described for you?

Dr. Shires. Is it possible to get a wound like that?

Dr. Specter. Yes, sir.

Dr. Shires. Yes; as long as it's on a tangent.

Mr. Specter. Is it likely to receive a wound like that from a high velocity weapon of 2,000 feet per second and at about 160 to 250 feet?

Dr. Shires. If it's a tangential wound, tangential wounds can be very strange. A large bullet can cause a small hole if its on a tangent or a small bullet can rip out a fairly large hole on a tangent. It just depends on the time of contact and the angle of contact with the skin. That's why it's awfully hard to predict.

Mr. Specter. So that wound could have either been the first striking of the Governor from the bullet, or it could have been from a missile whose velocity112 was spent after going through President Kennedy and through the Governor's body and wrist and then caused that wound in the thigh?

Dr. Shires. That's right, if it was a tangential bullet.

Mr. Specter. Dr. Shires, have you ever been contacted by any representative of the Federal Government prior to today?

Dr. Shires. Yes.

Mr. Specter. And who was it who contacted you?

Dr. Shires. I don't recall the name—it was two individuals from the Secret Service. They presented their credentials at the time to the administration and then subsequently to me and they were given copies of our operative reports, statements made by people concerned with the President and Governor at the time, and then subsequently one of those same two men from Secret Service returned and charted the entrance and exit wounds which you have described previously, or we have looked at previously in these five diagrams.

Mr. Specter. Have you ever been interviewed by any other representative of the Federal Government before today?

Dr. Shires. No; not in person. I discussed over the phone with the FBI—well, that was with regard to Oswald. I discussed over the phone what happened to the bullet that was taken from Oswald, but not with regard to the President or the Governor—no.

Mr. Specter. On your prior interviews by the Secret Service, sir, did they cover the same subjects which you and I have gone over today, or were other subjects covered?

Dr. Shires. No; essentially the same subjects.

Mr. Specter. And was any different information given to you by the Secret Service at that time of either of those two occasions?

Dr. Shires. No; the same as we have discussed here.

Mr. Specter. Now, prior to the time when you were sworn in and the court reporter started to take the deposition in shorthand form, did you and I have a brief discussion about the purpose of the deposition and the subject matters of interest to the Commission?

Dr. Shires. Yes.

Mr. Specter. And was the same information given by you to me during the course of that informal discussion as you have testified to on the record here this afternoon?

Dr. Shires. Yes; in less detail.

Mr. Specter. And do you have anything which you would care to add which you think might be helpful to the Commission in its work?

Dr. Shires. No.

Mr. Specter. Well, fine, that concludes the deposition, thank you very much, Dr. Shires.

Dr. Shires. Are you interested in Oswald—that's my only other question?

Mr. Specter. Well, let's talk about it a little off the record.

(Discussion between Counsel Specter and witness Dr. Shires off the record at this point.)

Mr. Specter. Let's go back on the record. Dr. Shires, before concluding the deposition, permit me to ask you just a few additional questions about care for Lee Harvey Oswald.

First of all, I again show you Commission exhibit No. 392, the last two pages which purport to be an operative record of Parkland Memorial Hospital on November 24, 1963, concerning treatment of Mr. Oswald, with you listed as the surgeon, and I'll ask you to take a look at these two sheets and tell us whether or not that is a report which you prepared on treatment of Mr. Oswald?

Dr. Shires. Yes, it is.

Mr. Specter. Will you outline in a very general way what his condition was when you first saw him?

Dr. Shires. When he was first seen in the emergency room, he was unconscious, without blood pressure or pulse, but with an audible heart beat, and attempts, feeble though they were, attempts in respiration. There was an entrance wound over the left lower chest and the bullet could be felt subcutaneously over the lower chest lateral projecting this trajectory through the body and looking113 at his general condition, it was fairly obvious that the bullet had transgressed virtually every major organ and vessel in the abdominal cavity, which later proved to be the case.

Mr. Specter. What did you do for him?

Dr. Shires. He was given resuscitation, including an endotracheal tube, intravenous fluids, blood, moved to the operating room, prepared, draped, an abdominal incision, laparotomy made, just as is described in the record. The injuries were in fact mortal and involved both major vessels in the abdomen, the aorta, the inferior vena cava, and there had been massive exanguinating hemorrhage into the abdomen—in and around the abdomen.

After securing control of all the many, many bleeding points and the bleeding organs, he never had regained consciousness. Approximately 15, 16—whatever it is, approximately, pints of blood had been given, and he had suffered irreparable anoxia from the initial massive blood loss incident to the gunshot wound. When his heart did stop, even though we felt this was a terminal cessation of heartbeat, efforts were made at resuscitation by open heart massage and all that went with it, but never once was an effective heartbeat obtained, so that our initial impression was that it was correct in that this was simply cardiac death and not cardiac arrest.

Mr. Specter. Did you come close to saving him, in the vernacular—in lay terms?

Dr. Shires. There has never been recorded in medical literature recovery from a wound like this. There was too much blood lost too fast. Had the injury occurred right outside the operating room, it might have been possible to reduce the period of anoxia that comes from overwhelming blood loss like this, sufficiently to have corrected it. We did control all the bleeding points with a lot of difficulty, finally all bleeding points were controlled and this was a mortal wound—there was no question about that.

Mr. Specter. Are the details of your observations, examination, and treatment of Mr. Oswald set forth in the two pages of this report which I have just shown you in Commission No. 392?

Dr. Shires. Yes, the operative reports that are contained there.

Mr. Specter. Thank you very much, Dr. Shires.

Dr. Shires. Thank you.

TESTIMONY OF DR. RICHARD BROOKS DULANY

The testimony of Dr. Richard Brooks Dulany was taken at 6:20 p.m., on March 25, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. Specter. May the record show that Dr. Richard Dulany is present in response to the request that he appear to have his deposition taken and he has been requested to appear here because he has been identified in prior depositions as perhaps being one of the first doctors to see President Kennedy.

Dr. Dulany, have you had an opportunity to examine the Executive Order creating the President's Commission?

Dr. Dulany. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. And the rules and regulations relating to the taking of testimony?

Dr. Dulany. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. Are you willing to have your deposition taken here today, even though you haven't had the 3 days' notice which you have a right to, if you want it?

Dr. Dulany. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. You are willing to waive that requirement?

Dr. Dulany. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Will you stand up now and raise your right hand?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give before the President's114 Commission in this deposition proceeding will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Dr. Dulany. I do.

Mr. Specter. Would you state your full name for the record?

Dr. Dulany. Richard Brooks Dulany.

Mr. Specter. What is your profession?

Dr. Dulany. M.D.—Medical Doctor.

Mr. Specter. Are you licensed to practice medicine in the State of Texas?

Dr. Dulany. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. And would you outline your educational background, please, starting with college—graduation from college?

Dr. Dulany. From college I went to the University Medical School of Oklahoma and then took my internship here at Parkland Hospital and was in the service for 2 years in the Navy, and I just got back from the service in November, and started a residency here in surgery.

Mr. Specter. Did you have occasion to participate in the care of President Kennedy on November 22, 1963?

Dr. Dulany. Is this all recorded now?

Mr. Specter. Yes.

Dr. Dulany. Well, as I stated, I principally cared for the Governor and then after his emergency treatment had been cared for, I went into the room where President Kennedy was being cared for.

Mr. Specter. Were you present from the start of the Governor's treatment?

Dr. Dulany. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. And about what time did you go into the room where the President was being treated?

Dr. Dulany. Well, I believe the Governor was supposed to have been in the surgery suite upstairs within 12 minutes after he came in, and so I'm sure I must have been in the room where the President was, about 7 minutes or so afterwards.

Mr. Specter. What time was that, about, as best you can place it?

Dr. Dulany. I don't really recollect the specific times.

Mr. Specter. What did you observe as to the condition of the President when you entered?

Dr. Dulany. Well, at this time his pupils were fixed and dilated and he had a large head wound—that was the first thing I noticed.

There was already a tracheotomy tube in the neck wound or what was later described as a wound, and had a cutdown running and several other doctors were putting chest tubes in.

Mr. Specter. What doctors were present at that time?

Dr. Dulany. I really can't be accurate on that. I remember Dr. Clark and Dr. Jenkins and Dr. Giesecke, Dr. Carrico, Dr. Martin White, and of course, the doctor that was probably down first of the staff members, Dr. Malcolm Perry, and I remember Dr. McClelland, and Dr. Peters were in there.

Mr. Specter. Are those all the doctors you remember as being down there?

Dr. Dulany. I believe those are all.

Mr. Specter. Can you identify any of the nurses who were there?

Dr. Dulany. No, I don't believe so. I can't remember them.

Mr. Specter. Is there anything that you think that you know would be helpful to the President's Commission in its inquiry into this matter?

Dr. Dulany. I don't believe I could add anything any more than you probably already know.

Mr. Specter. Did you observe any neck wound on the President?

Dr. Dulany. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. Specter. The tracheotomy had already been performed?

Dr. Dulany. It had been placed in.

Mr. Specter. Had the incision already been made when you first saw the President's neck?

Dr. Dulany. I really didn't examine it close enough to make any statement along that line.

115 Mr. Specter. Then, did you observe any wound in the President's neck at all?

Dr. Dulany. No, I just know that the tracheotomy was in and later I was told that this was a wound when it was first seen—you know, that's the best I can tell you.

Mr. Specter. That's fine, Dr. Dulany, thank you very much for appearing here today.

Dr. Dulany. Yes; thank you.

TESTIMONY OF RUTH JEANETTE STANDRIDGE

The testimony of Ruth Jeanette Standridge was taken at 1:35 p.m., on March 21, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. Specter. Miss Standridge, would you stand up and raise your right hand, please?

Do you solemnly swear the testimony you give before the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy in these deposition proceedings will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Miss Standridge. I do.

Mr. Specter. All right, you may be seated.

Miss Standridge, the President's Commission is investigating the assassination of President Kennedy and all the facts relating thereto, and we have asked you to appear to have your deposition taken in connection with the treatment which was given to Governor Connally in Parkland Memorial Hospital and to President Kennedy in Parkland Memorial Hospital, and all facts relating to that.

Have you received a letter from the President's Commission requesting that you appear?

Miss Standridge. Well, there was a letter came and I was out of town and they opened it, the supervisor opened it and she had the letter, but I haven't seen it yet.

Mr. Specter. You haven't seen it yet?

Miss Standridge. No.

Mr. Specter. Well, let me show you the enclosures which were in the letter so that you may be familiar with them. Here is a copy of the White House Executive order establishing the Commission, and here is a resolution establishing the rules for taking testimony. Permit me to explain to you that the rules require that we give you 3 days' notice, so that if you would request it now, we could delay taking your deposition until sometime next week, if you would prefer, or if you are agreeable to have us take your deposition, we can go right ahead and take it now.

Miss Standridge (reading instruments referred to). Thank you, you can just go ahead if you want to—it's all right with me.

Mr. Specter. It doesn't make any difference to you whether it is today or next week?

Miss Standridge. No; it does not.

Mr. Specter. Would you state your full name, please?

Miss Standridge. Ruth Jeanette Standridge.

Mr. Specter. What is your occupation or profession?

Miss Standridge. Head nurse of the emergency rooms.

Mr. Specter. At what hospital?

Miss Standridge. Parkland Memorial Hospital.

Mr. Specter. What were your duties on November 22, 1963?

Miss Standridge. I was working as charge nurse in the major surgery area in Parkland Memorial Hospital.

Mr. Specter. And did you receive notification that the President of the United States was en route to Parkland Hospital?

116 Miss Standridge. Yes; by my supervisor, Doris Nelson.

Mr. Specter. And at about what time did you receive that notification?

Miss Standridge. About 12:30, I guess.

Mr. Specter. And what action, if any, did you take as a result of getting that notice?

Miss Standridge. Immediately went to trauma room 2 and I was in trauma room 2 and began to set up Renger liquid and check the suction machine.

Mr. Specter. And was trauma room 1 set up?

Miss Standridge. Mrs. Nelson was setting trauma room 1 up at the same time.

Mr. Specter. Were you present when one or more of the victims arrived?

Miss Standridge. Yes.

Mr. Specter. And who was it arrived?

Miss Standridge. Governor Connally was brought into trauma room 2 first.

Mr. Specter. Did you observe President Kennedy arrive?

Miss Standridge. No; I was busy with the Governor.

Mr. Specter. And what did you do when the Governor arrived?

Miss Standridge. Well, we began to take his clothing off and the orderlies continued that and the doctors and I started handing the syringe and medicine and things necessary to start the IV.

Mr. Specter. And, what do you mean by "IV"?

Miss Standridge. Intravenous fluids.

Mr. Specter. And did you assist in the taking off of Governor Connally's clothes?

Miss Standridge. Yes.

Mr. Specter. What, if anything, did you notice with respect to the Governor's shirt?

Miss Standridge. There was blood on the front of it.

Mr. Specter. Was there any bullet hole on the front of the shirt?

Miss Standridge. Not that I can say for sure.

Mr. Specter. There could have been or could not have been, but you just don't know?

Miss Standridge. There could have been, but mostly it was just blood that we noticed.

Mr. Specter. Did you notice anything on the coat?

Miss Standridge. There was blood on the coat.

Mr. Specter. Was he wearing his suit coat?

Miss Standridge. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Did you notice whether or not there was any bullet hole in the coat?

Miss Standridge. I didn't see one.

Mr. Specter. What was Governor Connally's position when you first saw him?

Miss Standridge. He was laying on his back on the cart.

Mr. Specter. And what kind of cart was he lying on?

Miss Standridge. The emergency cart on rollers.

Mr. Specter. What is that emergency cart constructed of?

Miss Standridge. Well, it's just a thin fixture with rubber padding on the top, and it is used to transfer the patients to the wards, and to X-ray and to surgery.

Mr. Specter. Is it made of metal?

Miss Standridge. Of metal with four big tires on it.

Mr. Specter. With four roller tires on it?

Miss Standridge. Yes.

Mr. Specter. And what was on the cart underneath the Governor?

Miss Standridge. Well, there was just a sheet was all we had on there.

Mr. Specter. Was there anything on top of the Governor?

Miss Standridge. Well, we put a sheet, when we unclothed him.

Mr. Specter. Was he completely undressed?

Miss Standridge. Yes.

Mr. Specter. And was he lying on top of that cart while he was being undressed?

Miss Standridge. Yes.

117 Mr. Specter. And who assisted you in the process of undressing him?

Miss Standridge. Well, David Sanders was helping, he was my orderly that was in the room, and also an aid, Rosa Majors, and she took the money out of his pants, and Dr. Fueishier.

Mr. Specter. How do you spell that?

Miss Standridge. F-u-e-i-s-h-i-e-r (spelling), and Dr. Duke, and there was a couple of other doctors—I don't remember who they were, but they were up at the head, Dr. Fueishier and Dr. Duke, and Dr. Shaw came in before they got the Governor's clothes off.

Mr. Specter. Did you notice any object in Governor Connally's clothing?

Miss Standridge. Not unusual.

Mr. Specter. Did you notice a bullet, specifically?

Miss Standridge. No.

Mr. Specter. Did you hear the sound of anything fall?

Miss Standridge. I didn't.

Mr. Specter. Were there other noises going on in the room at that time?

Miss Standridge. Yes, there were.

Mr. Specter. Was Governor Connally completely undressed in the emergency room?

Miss Standridge. I believe so, to the best of my knowledge he was, I think everything was taken off.

Mr. Specter. And what was done with Governor Connally following the completion of his being undressed?

Miss Standridge. He was immediately carried to the elevator—emergency elevator.

Mr. Specter. And in what way was he carried to the emergency elevator?

Miss Standridge. On the emergency cart that he came into emergency room on.

Mr. Specter. Is that also describable as a stretcher?

Miss Standridge. Yes.

Mr. Specter. You say "Yes"?

Miss Standridge. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Did you assist in pushing him into the elevator?

Miss Standridge. I started and then there was enough doctors pushing him and I went back to get his clothing and by the time I came back up again—I went just as quickly as I could walk back to trauma room 2 and got the clothing, I ran back up to catch him, and the elevator was closing with him on it.

Mr. Specter. Did you actually see Governor Connally being wheeled into the elevator?

Miss Standridge. No, the door was closing as I got back around. I started with him down the hall and then before I got back, they had put him into the elevator.

Mr. Specter. Who assisted in pushing him out of the emergency room and down the hall—is it a little ways?

Miss Standridge. Well, it's through the OB and GYN section.

Mr. Specter. Is that "Obstetrics and Gynecology" section?

Miss Standridge. Yes; you go through that section to get to this elevator from the major surgery section.

Mr. Specter. How far did you help push him from the major surgery section?

Miss Standridge. About from the door that went into OBGN.

Mr. Specter. About how far is that?

Miss Standridge. Oh, about 20 feet, I guess, and they had about another 20 feet to go before they turned to the left to get to the elevator, which is about 6 or 8 feet.

Mr. Specter. So, you left him and went back to the emergency room to get his clothes, and when you came back, did you see any part of the stretcher?

Miss Standridge. Well, I could just see—I could see the stretcher—yes; and the doors and everybody in the elevator and the door was closed in.

Mr. Specter. Could you see Governor Connally on the stretcher?

Miss Standridge. No, not—I think his feet were at the end—I could just see feet—I believe the feet were there at that door, you know.

Mr. Specter. And, you saw the same doctors around the stretcher who were pushing him when you last saw him?

118 Miss Standridge. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Are you sure that was Governor Connally?

Miss Standridge. No, that's what I said—I just saw his feet, which I assumed it was—it was the same doctors.

Mr. Specter. About how long elapsed from the time you stopped pushing the stretcher until the time you got there to look and see just his feet?

Miss Standridge. Just a second, I mean, just a few seconds.

Mr. Specter. You went back and got his clothes?

Miss Standridge. Yes.

Mr. Specter. What did you do with those clothes?

Miss Standridge. I asked the administrator who should I give them to, and they told me to give them to Governor Connally's party and they were in the minor medicine section and I went out there and there were two gentlemen out there and I asked them who I wanted to see—I wanted to see somebody in Governor Connally's party, and they opened the door and they asked for somebody, and he said he was—he identified himself as Cliff Carter.

Mr. Specter. Did you give him the clothing?

Miss Standridge. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Do you know what he did with it?

Miss Standridge. No.

Mr. Specter. Have you heard what he did with it?

Miss Standridge. I've heard that it got lost and they found it in Representative Gonzales' office in a closet.

Mr. Specter. And is he a Texas Representative?

Miss Standridge. I believe so.

Mr. Specter. In his office closet where?

Miss Standridge. In Washington, D.C.

Mr. Specter. Are you limited in anyway from entering into the operating room area?

Miss Standridge. We are limited, but there is a place where the spots are painted on the floor that is is legal for us to go through into the hallway into the nurses' station.

Mr. Specter. You can go around in part of the operating room area?

Miss Standridge. Isn't into the premises—it's just in the hallway into the nurses' station.

Mr. Specter. And what is the reason for limiting you from going beyond that into the operating room area?

Miss Standridge. Well, we are not considered—we would be contaminating.

Mr. Specter. Well, is there some problem about flammable gases up there?

Miss Standridge. Anesthesia equipment, that's right, and these spots are painted there, and if you don't have the proper shoes on, they will be a conductor, you know, and these spots are there for that area.

Mr. Specter. Was Governor Connally removed from the stretcher at anytime while he was in the emergency room?

Miss Standridge. No; he wasn't. He never went to X-ray or he wasn't taken off at all.

Mr. Specter. Does the elevator that the stretcher was pushed into go only to the operating room?

Miss Standridge. No; it stops on first floor and also goes up to delivery—up to the delivery room on third floor.

Mr. Specter. What is on first floor?

Miss Standridge. No patients—only classrooms and administrative offices—business offices.

Mr. Specter. What is on third floor?

Miss Standridge. The delivery room—it opens up into the delivery room and then the post mortem wards.

Mr. Specter. Do you have anything you would like to add which you think might be helpful to us in any way?

Miss Standridge. Well, not that I can think of other than that I have already stated.

Mr. Specter. Did you see President Kennedy's stretcher at any time?

Miss Standridge. Yes; I was in the room—I took the mop in. The orderlies119 mopped the floor and we cleaned the wall, the blood off of the walls and so forth, to get it presentable before Mrs. Kennedy came back in.

Mr. Specter. And was President Kennedy in the room at that time?

Miss Standridge. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Did you see him there?

Miss Standridge. Yes.

Mr. Specter. And you identified him from what you knew he looked like?

Miss Standridge. Yes.

Mr. Specter. And how was he clothed at that time?

Miss Standridge. Well, as far as from his waist up—was all that was uncovered and they were trying to protect his head with a sheet—it was wrapped around his head.

Mr. Specter. What clothing did he have on from the waist down?

Miss Standridge. It was just a sheet cover—I don't know of anything under the cover, whether there was or not. I assumed he was all unclothed, which we do routinely.

Mr. Specter. He was all unclothed?

Miss Standridge. I said I assumed he was—I don't know.

Mr. Specter. What did he have from the waist up?

Miss Standridge. Nothing.

Mr. Specter. What was he on at that time?

Miss Standridge. A stretcher cart.

Mr. Specter. Did you see what happened to that stretcher afterward?

Miss Standridge. I didn't notice. They moved it from the room.

Mr. Specter. Do you know what happened to the sheets that were on the President's stretcher?

Miss Standridge. No; I don't.

Mr. Specter. Did you and I meet previously before I started to take the deposition here today and talk about the procedures for the investigation by the Warren Commission?

Miss Standridge. Yes.

Mr. Specter. And have you and I been discussing here, with me asking questions and you making answers all the things which we talked about before the court reporter came in?

Miss Standridge. I believe so.

Mr. Specter. Have you ever talked to any other representative of the Federal Government?

Miss Standridge. The Secret Service—yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. And did you talk with them once or more than once?

Miss Standridge. Well, I talked with them one time in Mr. Wright's office and another time just briefly—he came to see the layout of the emergency room.

Mr. Specter. Whose office—Mr. Wright?

Miss Standridge. Personnel manager here.

Mr. Specter. What did the Secret Service men ask you about on those occasions?

Miss Standridge. Well, just the same thing we have gone over today.

Mr. Specter. And you talked with the Secret Service man in another part of the hospital on another day, you say?

Miss Standridge. I think he came back up into the emergency room at that time.

Mr. Specter. What did you talk about in the emergency room at that time?

Miss Standridge. Well, Mrs. Nelson, she showed him the different areas.

Mr. Specter. And you identified some of the things?

Miss Standridge. No, sir.

Mr. Specter. Have you ever talked with any other representative of the Federal Government?

Miss Standridge. No.

Mr. Specter. Any representative of the State government?

Miss Standridge. No.

Mr. Specter. Thank you very much. Those are all—those are the only questions I have.

Miss Standridge. Thank you for that.

120

TESTIMONY OF JANE CAROLYN WESTER

The testimony of Jane Carolyn Wester was taken on March 20, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas. Tex., by Mr. Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. Specter. Miss Wester, this is Miss Oliver the court reporter and she will take down your testimony here and will you raise your right hand and take the oath?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you will give in this proceeding will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Miss Wester. I do.

Mr. Specter. May the record preliminarily show that the purpose of this proceeding is in connection with the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy to ascertain facts relating to the assassination and all medical treatment obtained by President Kennedy and Governor Connally following their being shot.

The witness at the moment is Miss Jane Wester who has been asked to testify concerning any facts of which she has knowledge concerning treatment of President Kennedy or Governor Connally and the disposition of Governor Connally's clothing and sheet in which he was wrapped at the time the Governor was brought into the operating room at Parkland Memorial Hospital.

Mr. Specter. Will you state your full name, for the record, please?

Miss Wester. Jane Carolyn Wester.

Mr. Specter. And what is your residence address, Miss Wester?

Miss Wester. 1107 Brockbank, Dallas.

Mr. Specter. Have you received a letter of notification from the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy advising you that I would contact you for the purpose of taking testimony from you in connection with this proceeding, Miss Wester?

Miss Wester. Yes; I have.

Mr. Specter. And at that time did you receive the copies of the Executive order creating the Commission and the rules and regulations relating to the taking of testimony?

Miss Wester. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. Specter. And are you satisfied to appear here today and answer some questions relating to your participation in the treatment of Governor Connally?

Miss Wester. Yes, sir; I am.

Mr. Specter. And President Kennedy?

Miss Wester. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. What is your occupation or profession, please?

Miss Wester. I am a registered nurse.

Mr. Specter. And at what institution are you employed?

Miss Wester. Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas.

Mr. Specter. And how long have you been so employed at Parkland Memorial Hospital?

Miss Wester. Nine years—or 9 1/2.

Mr. Specter. Will you outline your duties in a general way as they were back on November 22, 1963?

Miss Wester. I am assistant supervisor in the operating room, and I assign personnel duties, direct them in their activities.

Mr. Specter. Did you receive notice on that date that President Kennedy and Governor Connally were en route to Parkland Memorial Hospital to receive treatment?

Miss Wester. I was not aware that they were in the hospital.

Mr. Specter. When was it first brought to your attention, if at all?

Miss Wester. At noon, around noon—noontime—I'm not sure as to the exact time it was. I was relieving the secretary for lunch and the phone rang. Someone in the pathology department asked if the President were in the operating room and I answered them, "No," and they said that a Secret Service agent was121 down there and as soon as the President did arrive in the operating room, would I please call them.

Mr. Specter. What was your next connection, if any, with respect to the treatment of either President Kennedy or Governor Connally at Parkland?

Miss Wester. I received a phone call from the emergency room asking us to set up for a craniotomy.

Mr. Specter. And what is a craniotomy in lay language?

Miss Wester. That's an exploration of the head.

Mr. Specter. Was there any other request made at that time?

Miss Wester. Yes—well—immediately following, following that I received a call to set up for a thoracotomy, which is an exploration of the chest.

Mr. Specter. And were those two set ups made in accordance with the requests you received?

Miss Wester. Yes; I immediately assigned personnel to set up these two rooms for these two cases.

Mr. Specter. And what room was used for the craniotomy?

Miss Wester. The craniotomy was set up in room 7.

Mr. Specter. And what room was used for the thoracotomy?

Miss Wester. The thoracotomy was set up in room 5.

Mr. Specter. And on what floor were the two rooms?

Miss Wester. Well, on the south wing of the second floor.

Mr. Specter. What happened next in connection with this matter?

Miss Wester. I assigned personnel to take care of the doorways to keep traffic out of the operating room and keep people back—keep the halls clear. Shortly thereafter, Governor Connally arrived in the operating room with several doctors—arrived by stretcher.

Mr. Specter. Now, in what way did a stretcher arrive from the first floor, or by what means of locomotion?

Miss Wester. The stretcher arrived by an elevator which is in the operating room—it comes directly from emergency room and which—there were several doctors with him that brought the stretchers up.

Mr. Specter. And what happened to the stretcher after it left the elevator on the second floor of the operating room area?

Miss Wester. The doctors brought this and were proceeding down the hall, and I met them in the center of the operating room suite itself.

Mr. Specter. About how far is that from the elevator door?

Miss Wester. Approximately 50 feet.

Mr. Specter. What was done then with Governor Connally on the stretcher, following the point where you met them?

Miss Wester. We proceeded to room 5 and outside of room 5 we transferred Governor Connally from the stretcher onto an operating table and removed his clothes from the bottom of the stretcher and placed them in the hallway by the operating table.

Mr. Specter. In what way was Governor Connally dressed or robed when you first saw him on the stretcher?

Miss Wester. As far as I know, the only thing he had was a sheet on him. He had no hospital gown or anything else that I know of on.

Mr. Specter. Had his clothes then been removed by that time?

Miss Wester. Yes; he arrived without his clothes. They were on the bottom of the cart in a paper sack.

Mr. Specter. And you said he was transferred from the stretcher onto an operating table?

Miss Wester. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Now, was that inside the operating room? Or outside the operating room?

Miss Wester. No; it's in the hallway right outside room 5—we transferred him onto the operating table, and then moved the table into the operating room.

Mr. Specter. And did he have any clothing on at the time you transferred him from the stretcher onto the operating table?

Miss Wester. I don't recall any clothes that he had on.

Mr. Specter. What was then done with Governor Connally on the operating table?

122 Miss Wester. The operating table was moved into the operating room and at that time they proceeded to start anesthetics on him and put him to sleep.

Mr. Specter. What doctors were in attendance of Governor Connally at that time.

Miss Wester. Dr.—there were many—Dr. Giesecke, G-i-e-s-e-c-k-e (spelling)—there were so many. Dr. Ray, I believe, was there, and there were many others—right offhand, I can't remember.

Mr. Specter. Did you go into the operating room at that time?

Miss Wester. I went as far as the doorway with him.

Mr. Specter. Now, what was done with the stretcher on which he came to that point?

Miss Wester. I took the stretcher and rolled it to the center area of the operating room suite—rolled the sheets up on the stretcher into a small bundle.

Mr. Specter. Was there one sheet or more than one sheet?

Miss Wester. I believe there were two sheets and I rolled one inside the other up into a small bundle.

Mr. Specter. What is the next normal procedure with respect to the number of sheets on such a stretcher in like circumstances?

Miss Wester. The cart—the mattress on the cart is covered with one sheet, the patient is usually covered with another. When they arrive in the operating room the sheet covering the patient is removed and a grey cotton blanket is placed over the patient and the sheets are rolled up and usually returned to the emergency room with the cart.

Mr. Specter. What else, if anything, was on that stretcher?

Miss Wester. There were several glassine packets, small packets of hypodermic needles—well, packed in and sterilized in. There were several others-some alcohol sponges and a roll of 1-inch tape. Those things, I definitely know, were on the cart, and the sheets, of course.

Mr. Specter. Were there any other objects on the cart, on the stretcher cart?

Miss Wester. Right off, I can't remember——

Mr. Specter. Do you recollect whether there were any gloves on the cart?

Miss Wester. There could have been—I don't recall right off—I can't remember that.

Mr. Specter. Do you recall whether there were any tools on one end of the stretcher?

Miss Wester. I know I set something down on the cart, I think it was a curved hemostat—I couldn't say for sure—I'm not sure.

Mr. Specter. Now, you have testified that you met Governor Connally on the stretcher when he was 50 feet from the elevator door. Is there any object at about that spot that is a landmark, so to speak, of that particular spot?

Miss Wester. Where I met Governor Connally in the operating room?

Mr. Specter. Yes.

Miss Wester. There is a clock.

Mr. Specter. About how far from the clock is the door to the operating room, room 5, where Governor Connally was taken?

Miss Wester. I would say approximately 75 feet.

Mr. Specter. Now, what did you do with the stretcher after Governor Connally was taken off of it?

Miss Wester. I moved the stretcher back to the center area, fairly close to the clock, it wasn't right under it, but fairly close, and an orderly, R. J. Jimison, walked up——

Mr. Specter. His initials are R. J.?

Miss Wester. And he stood at the cart while I rolled the sheets up and removed the items from the cart, and from there he took the cart and proceeded to the elevator with it and the last time I saw him he was standing at the elevator with the cart waiting for him to be picked up.

Mr. Specter. Did you see that stretcher any more that day?

Miss Wester. Not that I know of.

Mr. Specter. Will you describe in a general way what that stretcher looked like?

Miss Wester. Well, it has four wheels and a lower shelf, a thin mattress on123 it, and side rails on it, on each side of the cart. It has a rubber rim at the edge of it, sort of a bumper type to the upper shelf of the cart.

Mr. Specter. And what is it constructed of?

Miss Wester. Well, it's a metal—steel.

Mr. Specter. What was done with the mattress?

Miss Wester. It remained on the cart. It was not moved then, only the sheets were left and rolled into a bundle. And, when the sheets were rolled into a bundle, I didn't actually lift them up.

Mr. Specter. Did you see Miss Jeanette Standridge at any time in connection with this particular movement of the stretcher?

Miss Wester. No.

Mr. Specter. Did you see Mrs. Henrietta Ross at any time in connection with this particular movement of the stretcher?

Miss Wester. No; I believe she walked up on my right as I was rolling the sheets up.

Mr. Specter. Did you see Darrell C. Tomlinson at any time in connection with this particular movement of the stretcher?

Miss Wester. No.

Mr. Specter. Were you interviewed by the Secret Service about these events at some time in the past?

Miss Wester. Yes; I was.

Mr. Specter. Were you interviewed by anyone else?

Miss Wester. No.

Mr. Specter. And did the Secret Service interview on one occasion or more than one occasion?

Miss Wester. Only one occasion.

Mr. Specter. And immediately prior to your being sworn in and starting to take this deposition, did I have a very brief conversation with you about the purpose of this proceeding?

Miss Wester. Yes; you did.

Mr. Specter. And about the facts to which you have testified since this formal deposition started?

Miss Wester. Yes.

Mr. Specter. And at that did you tell me all the facts previously testified to here to this effect?

Miss Wester. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Did the sheet on which the Governor was lying have anything on it?

Miss Wester. It had some blood.

Mr. Specter. Have you made any notes or any written record of that sort concerning the matters about which you have testified here today?

Miss Wester. No; I haven't.

Mr. Specter. That concludes the deposition, and I thank you very much for appearing here.

Miss Wester. Fine.

TESTIMONY OF MRS. HENRIETTA M. ROSS

The testimony of Mrs. Henrietta M. Ross was taken at 6:50 p.m., on March 25, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. Specter. May the record show that the oath has been administered to Mrs. Henrietta Ross who is appearing here in response to a letter request to testify as part of the inquiry of the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy, which involves the treatment of President Kennedy and Governor Connally at Parkland Hospital.

Mrs. Ross has been asked to appear and testify concerning her knowledge about the stretcher cart on which Governor Connally was transported while in the hospital.

124 Mr. Specter. With that preliminary statement, I'll ask you, Mrs. Ross, to state your full name?

Mrs. Ross. Mrs. Henrietta Magnolia Ross.

Mr. Specter. And where are you employed?

Mrs. Ross. Parkland Hospital.

Mr. Specter. In what capacity?

Mrs. Ross. Operating room technician.

Mr. Specter. And what were your duties on November 22, 1963?

Mrs. Ross. Stand in the hall and guard the hall and not let anyone pass by I did not know.

Mr. Specter. Did you have occasion to see Governor Connally?

Mrs. Ross. Yes; as he came down the hall on the cart.

Mr. Specter. Did you see him as he left the elevator?

Mrs. Ross. Yes.

Mr. Specter. About what time was that?

Mrs. Ross. About—it should have been after 1 o'clock because I was supposed to go to a class that day and I couldn't go.

Mr. Specter. Who was with him at the time, if anyone?

Mrs. Ross. There were doctors all around in the corridor and I don't know exactly who—I only remember one person and that was Dr. Gustafason, because he gave me his coat to hang up as he was passing.

Mr. Specter. Was Miss Jane Wester there?

Mrs. Ross. She was up there; yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. And what did you see them do with the Governor, if anything?

Mrs. Ross. They pushed him down in front of room 5 and onto the operating table and put him on it.

Mr. Specter. What were they pushing him on?

Mrs. Ross. On a stretcher from the emergency room.

Mr. Specter. Will you describe the stretcher for me, please, starting with what was it made of?

Mrs. Ross. It has four legs, four wheels and has a little rubber sheet on it. I mean, a rubber mattress, and the length of the normal body is the length of the cart.

Mr. Specter. Is it made of metal?

Mrs. Ross. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. And what was done with the stretcher cart after they rolled Governor Connally off of it?

Mrs. Ross. It was pushed back up toward room 3.

Mr. Specter. Is that toward the elevator?

Mrs. Ross. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. And by whom was it pushed?

Mrs. Ross. Jimison.

Mr. Specter. R. J. Jimison?

Mrs. Ross. I don't know Jimison's initials, sir.

Mr. Specter. He's one of the orderlies there?

Mrs. Ross. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. And where did you last see the stretcher?

Mrs. Ross. In front of room 3.

Mr. Specter. Did Jimison have it in his control at that time?

Mrs. Ross. The last time I looked he was pushing it; yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. Have you talked to the Secret Service about this?

Mrs. Ross. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. On how many occasions?

Mrs. Ross. One time.

Mr. Specter. Did you talk to anyone else from the Federal Government about this matter?

Mrs. Ross. No, sir.

Mr. Specter. Do you have anything to add which you think might be helpful to the Commission?

Mrs. Ross. No, sir.

Mr. Specter. Thank you very much for appearing.

Mrs. Ross. Thank you.

125

TESTIMONY OF R. J. JIMISON

The testimony of R. J. Jimison was taken at 2:35 p.m., on March 21, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas. Tex., by Mr. Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. Specter. Would you stand up, please, Mr. Jimison, and raise your right hand.

Do you solemnly swear the testimony you shall give before this Commission in the deposition proceedings will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. Jimison. I do.

Mr. Specter. Mr. Jimison, have you received a letter of notification from the President's Commission advising you that you would be contacted to have your deposition taken?

Mr. Jimison. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. And did that letter contain in it a copy of the Executive order creating the Commission, a copy of the joint congressional resolution about the Commission, and the procedures for taking depositions by the Commission?

Mr. Jimison. I believe it did.

Mr. Specter. Are you willing to have your deposition taken today, sir; do you have any objection to my asking you some questions and having them reported by the court reporter here?

Mr. Jimison. No; I do not.

Mr. Specter. By whom are you employed, Mr. Jimison?

Mr. Jimison. I would just say the hospital—County Hospital.

Mr. Specter. Parkland Memorial Hospital?

Mr. Jimison. Yes; Parkland Memorial Hospital.

Mr. Specter. What kind of work do you do here?

Mr. Jimison. Orderly.

Mr. Specter. Let the record show that you have a badge on which says, "R. J. Jimison".

Mr. Jimison. Right.

Mr. Specter. "Orderly." And is that your full name?

Mr. Jimison. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. And what does the "R" stand for?

Mr. Jimison. That's just an initial name.

Mr. Specter. And how about the "J"?

Mr. Jimison. Same.

Mr. Specter. So, people call you "R. J."?

Mr. Jimison. Right.

Mr. Specter. What were your duties back on November 22, 1963, Mr. Jimison?

Mr. Jimison. My duties was the same as usual; that is, to transport patients to and fro, reclean rooms, betwixt each case.

Mr. Specter. Did you have occasion to see President Kennedy on that day?

Mr. Jimison. I did not.

Mr. Specter. Did you have occasion to see Governor Connally on that day?

Mr. Jimison. I did.

Mr. Specter. What were the circumstances under which you saw Governor Connally?

Mr. Jimison. Well, I would say it wasn't such a pleasant circumstance, but he was lying on a carriage, a hospital carriage, and I was—I assisted in helping move him from the carriage to the operating table.

Mr. Specter. Where was he when you first saw him?

Mr. Jimison. He was on the second floor in the operating room suite, near room 4, where his operation was performed.

Mr. Specter. Was he taken to room 4 or room 5?

Mr. Jimison. He was taken in room—I thought it was room 4, but maybe it could have been room 5, but I taken it to be room 4, because like I told you, I helped lift him off of the table, but usually we help put them in the room—at that time there was so many doctors that I didn't.

126 Mr. Specter. Did you see Governor Connally from the time he came off of the elevator?

Mr. Jimison. No.

Mr. Specter. What floor were you on when you first saw him?

Mr. Jimison. I was on two.

Mr. Specter. How far was he from the elevator when you first saw him?

Mr. Jimison. I guess he must have been about 20 feet.

Mr. Specter. And how far was it from the elevator to the place where you were?

Mr. Jimison. About how many feet? About 20 or 30 feet.

Mr. Specter. Was he near the big clock when you first saw him, the clock that is overhead in the center there?

Mr. Jimison. Yes.

Mr. Specter. And were there doctors around him at that time?

Mr. Jimison. Yes.

Mr. Specter. And did you help push the stretcher from that point to——

Mr. Jimison. (interrupting) No; I followed behind him to room 4 and I helped them take him off.

Mr. Specter. You helped them take Governor Connally and put him on the operating table?

Mr. Jimison. I did.

Mr. Specter. And what then was done with the stretcher that he was on?

Mr. Jimison. Well, the stretcher at that time was moved back from the table, of course, because they had to make room for the doctors to get up close to the table, which was back just a'ways and when I got free—whether it was Miss Wester or Mrs. Ross there—they pushed it back a little further, but they didn't get quite to the elevator with it; I came along and pushed it onto the elevator myself and loaded it on and pushed the door closed.

Mr. Specter. What was on the stretcher at that time?

Mr. Jimison. I noticed nothing more than a little flat mattress and two sheets as usual.

Mr. Specter. And what was the position of the sheets?

Mr. Jimison. Of course, them sheets was, of course, as usual, flat out on the bed.

Mr. Specter. Had they been rolled up?

Mr. Jimison. More or less, not rolled, which, yes, usually they is, the mattress and sheets are all just throwed, one of them about halfway, it would be just throwed about halfway.

Mr. Specter. Were the sheets flat or just turned over?

Mr. Jimison. Well, just turned over.

Mr. Specter. Were they crumpled up in any way?

Mr. Jimison. Well, there was a possibility it was strictly—a tragic day.

Mr. Specter. It was what?

Mr. Jimison. It was a tragic day.

Mr. Specter. Right, and everybody was a little shook up on account of it?

Mr. Jimison. We didn't look too close.

Mr. Specter. Was there anything else on the stretcher?

Mr. Jimison. I never noticed anything else at all.

Mr. Specter. Could there have been some empty packets of hypodermic needles or an alcohol sponge?

Mr. Jimison. There could have been.

Mr. Specter. Or a 1-inch roll of tape?

Mr. Jimison. There could have been something—small stuff, but nothing large like bundles or anything like that.

Mr. Specter. What did you do with the stretcher then, you said?

Mr. Jimison. Pushed it on the rear elevator, which goes downstairs.

Mr. Specter. Is there any other elevator which goes downstairs to the emergency area?

Mr. Jimison. Not close in the emergency area—that's the only one.

Mr. Specter. What was the purpose for your putting it on that elevator?

Mr. Jimison. It goes back to emergency because it can be cleaned up there and remade and put in use again.

127 Mr. Specter. Is it customarily your job to put it back on the elevator?

Mr. Jimison. Yes; it is.

Mr. Specter. Did you ever take it down and put it in order yourself?

Mr. Jimison. No, sir; we never carry it down ourselves. The fact is—the purpose is—we have enough to do up there, and we have men up there to take care of that.

Mr. Specter. Somebody else is supposed to take the elevator up there? Is that right?

Mr. Jimison. One of them—we put it on the elevator, then it becomes the responsibility of the emergency room.

Mr. Specter. Was there any other stretcher placed on that elevator later that day?

Mr. Jimison. Not during my shift.

Mr. Specter. Are you the only man who would put the stretcher on the elevator if there were one?

Mr. Jimison. No, I is not, but might near—I could might near see of anybody—from where the elevator sits from where the halls were—I could might near see all of the stretchers put on there.

Mr. Specter. If a stretcher was put on there it would have to be in your presence?

Mr. Jimison. I would have had to be hid where I wouldn't be able to see it.

Mr. Specter. What time did you put the stretcher from Governor Connally on the elevator?

Mr. Jimison. I'm not too sure I know of the time. I really don't know exactly the time.

Mr. Specter. Well, about how long after he was taken into the operating room, did you?

Mr. Jimison. It was lesser than 10 minutes before or after.

Mr. Specter. What time did you get off that day?

Mr. Jimison. 3:30.

Mr. Specter. And you say there was no other stretcher placed on that elevator from the time you put Governor Connally's stretcher on until the end of the day?

Mr. Jimison. Until the end of my shift. You see, that's the emergency—from the emergency that we had from that time that he was brought up until I was relieved from duty that afternoon.

Mr. Specter. Did you notice any bullets on the stretcher?

Mr. Jimison. I never noticed any at all.

Mr. Specter. Did I sit down and talk with you for a few minutes before the court reporter came in to take this all down here today?

Mr. Jimison. Yes.

Mr. Specter. And have I asked you questions and have you given me answers just like in our short discussion before this deposition started?

Mr. Jimison. (No response.)

Mr. Specter. Did you and I talk about the same things we have been talking about since the court reporter came in?

Mr. Jimison. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Have you ever been talked to by any other person from the Federal Government?

Mr. Jimison. Yes, I have.

Mr. Specter. And who was that?

Mr. Jimison. I don't remember his name, but shortly after that happened—I don't know, as I say, it was the Federal Government.

Mr. Specter. What branch was he from?

Mr. Jimison. I thought he was from the Secret Service.

Mr. Specter. How many times did you talk to somebody from the Secret Service?

Mr. Jimison. Well, I talked to him once; he just talked to me once.

Mr. Specter. And what about?

Mr. Jimison. The same thing.

Mr. Specter. And did you ever talk to anybody else about this fact?

Mr. Jimison. No.

128 Mr. Specter. Do you have anything to add, that you think might be helpful to us?

Mr. Jimison. Well, no, because the fact is—because that's pretty well covered—just, I actually want to give facts about something I know something about, and during the time I know something about, and what actually happened from the time I got off—I couldn't tell you, but I do know there wasn't no carriage from the time that carriage was picked up until I got off from duty.

This ain't actually—not in it, but due to this—this is—what I'm fixing to say is off of the book—I couldn't see after President Kennedy because I didn't—I never did get up to the floor—so I didn't see him. I am glad if was any kind of help, Mr. Specter.

Mr. Specter. You have been, Mr. Jimison, and we appreciate your coming in and helping us a lot.

Mr. Jimison. Same back to you.

Mr. Specter. Thank you.

TESTIMONY OF DARRELL C. TOMLINSON

The testimony of Darrell C. Tomlinson was taken on March 20, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. Specter. Mr. Tomlinson, this is Miss Oliver, and she is the court reporter. Will you stand up and hold up your right hand and take the oath, please?

Do you solemnly swear that in the taking of your deposition in these proceedings, you will tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. Tomlinson. I do.

Mr. Specter. Would you state your full name, for the record?

Mr. Tomlinson. Darrell Carlisle Tomlinson.

Mr. Specter. Mr. Tomlinson, the purpose of this deposition proceeding is to take your deposition in connection with an inquiry made by the President's Commission in connection with the Assassination of President Kennedy to determine from you all the facts, if any, which you know concerning the events surrounding the assassination of President Kennedy and any treatment which was given at Parkland Memorial Hospital to either President Kennedy or Governor Connally, or anything that happened to any physical objects connected with either one of those men.

First of all, did you receive a letter advising you that the Commission was interested in having one of its staff lawyers take your deposition concerning this matter?

Mr. Tomlinson. Yes.

Mr. Specter. And did that letter include in it a copy of the Executive order creating the Commission?

Mr. Tomlinson. Yes.

Mr. Specter. And a copy of the congressional resolution concerning the creation of the President's Commission?

Mr. Tomlinson. Yes.

Mr. Specter. And a copy of the resolution governing questioning of witnesses by members of the Commission's staff?

Mr. Tomlinson. Yes.

Mr. Specter. And are you willing today for me to ask you some questions about what you observed or know about this matter?

Mr. Tomlinson. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. And it is satisfactory with you to proceed today rather than to have 3 days from the time you got the letter, which was yesterday?

Mr. Tomlinson. It's immaterial.

Mr. Specter. It's immaterial to you?

129 Mr. Tomlinson. It's immaterial—it's at your convenience.

Mr. Specter. That's fine. We appreciate that, Mr. Tomlinson.

The reason is, that you have the right to a 3-day notice, but if it doesn't matter to you, then we would like to go ahead and take your information today.

Mr. Tomlinson. Yes.

Mr. Specter. We call that a waiver under the law, if it is all right with you for us to talk with you today, then I want to go ahead and do that; is that all right?

Mr. Tomlinson. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Well, where are you employed, Mr. Tomlinson?

Mr. Tomlinson. Parkland Hospital.

Mr. Specter. And what is your capacity?

Mr. Tomlinson. I am classed as the senior engineer.

Mr. Specter. And what duties are involved in general?

Mr. Tomlinson. I'm in charge of the powerplant here at the hospital, which takes care of the heating and air-conditioning services for the building.

Mr. Specter. Will you describe the general physical layout relating to the emergency area and how you get from the emergency area, say, to the second floor emergency operating rooms of Parkland Memorial Hospital?

Mr. Tomlinson. You mean just the general lay?

Mr. Specter. Yes, sir; please.

Mr. Tomlinson. Well, we have one elevator that goes from the basement to the third floor, that's what we call the emergency elevator. It's in the south section of the hospital and that would be your most direct route to go from the ground floor, which emergency is on, to the operating rooms on two.

Mr. Specter. Now, did you have anything to do with that elevator on November 22, sometime around the noon hour?

Mr. Tomlinson. Yes.

Mr. Specter. And what did you have to do with that elevator?

Mr. Tomlinson. Well, we received a call in the engineer's office, the chief engineer's office, and he requested someone to operate the elevator.

Mr. Specter. Was there any problem with the elevator with respect to a mechanical difficulty of any sort?

Mr. Tomlinson. No, sir; it was an ordinary type elevator, and if it isn't keyed off it will stop every time somebody pushes a button, and they preferred it to go only to the second floor and to the ground floor unless otherwise instructed by the administrator.

Mr. Specter. So, what were you to do with this elevator?

Mr. Tomlinson. Key it off the ground, between ground and second floor.

Mr. Specter. So that you would operate it in that way?

Mr. Tomlinson. Yes; make a manual operation out of it.

Mr. Specter. When you came upon that elevator, what time was it, to the best of your recollection?

Mr. Tomlinson. It was around 1 o'clock.

Mr. Specter. Was there anything on the elevator at that time?

Mr. Tomlinson. There was one stretcher.

Mr. Specter. And describe the appearance of that stretcher, if you will, please.

Mr. Tomlinson. I believe that stretcher had sheets on it and had a white covering on the pad.

Mr. Specter. What did you say about the covering on the pad, excuse me?

Mr. Tomlinson. I believe it was a white sheet that was on the pad.

Mr. Specter. And was there anything else on that?

Mr.Tomlinson. I don't believe there was on that one, I'm not sure, but I don't believe there was.

Mr. Specter. What, if anything, did you do with that stretcher?