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Title: Warren Commission (3 of 26): Hearings Vol. III (of 15)

Author: The President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy

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Language: English

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INVESTIGATION OF
THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY

HEARINGS
Before the President's Commission
on the Assassination
of President Kennedy

Pursuant To Executive Order 11130, an Executive order creating a Commission to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of the late President John F. Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of the man charged with the assassination and S.J. Res. 137, 88th Congress, a concurrent resolution conferring upon the Commission the power to administer oaths and affirmations, examine witnesses, receive evidence, and issue subpenas

Volume
III

UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE

WASHINGTON, D.C.


U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE, WASHINGTON: 1964

For sale in complete sets by the Superintendent of Documents, U.S. Government Printing Office Washington, D.C., 20402


iii

PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION
ON THE
ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT KENNEDY

Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman

Biographical information on the Commissioners and the staff can be found in the Commission's Report.

A Mr. Willens also acted as liaison between the Commission and the Department of Justice.


v

Preface

The testimony of the following witnesses is contained in volume III: Ruth Hyde Paine, an acquaintance of Lee Harvey Oswald and his wife; Howard Leslie Brennan, who was present at the assassination scene; Bonnie Ray Williams, Harold Norman, James Jarman, Jr., and Roy Sansom Truly, Texas School Book Depository employees; Marrion L. Baker, a Dallas motorcycle officer who was present at the assassination scene; Mrs. Robert A. Reid, who was in the Texas School Book Depository Building at the time of the assassination; Luke Mooney and Eugene Boone, Dallas law enforcement officers who took part in the investigative effort in the Texas School Book Depository Building immediately following the assassination; Patrolman M. N. McDonald, who apprehended Lee Harvey Oswald in the Texas Theatre; Helen Markham, William W. Scoggins, Barbara Jeanette Davis, and Ted Callaway, who were in the vicinity of the Tippit crime scene; Drs. Charles James Carrico and Malcolm Perry, who attended President Kennedy at Parkland Hospital; Robert A. Frazier, a firearms identification expert with the Federal Bureau of Investigation; Ronald Simmons, an expert in weapons evaluation with the U.S. Army Weapons Systems Division; Cortlandt Cunningham, a firearms identification expert with the Federal Bureau of Investigation; and Joseph D. Nicol, a firearms identification expert with the Bureau of Criminal Identification and Investigation of the Illinois Department of Public Safety.


vii

Contents

  Page
Preface v
Testimony of—
Ruth Hyde Paine (resumed) 1
Howard Leslie Brennan 140, 184, 211
Bonnie Ray Williams 161
Harold Norman 186
James Jarman, Jr 198
Roy Sansom Truly 212
Marrion L. Baker 242
Mrs. Robert A. Reid 270
Luke Mooney 281
Eugene Boone 291
M. N. McDonald 295
Helen Markham 305, 340
William W. Scoggins 322
Barbara Jeanette Davis 342
Ted Callaway 351
Charles James Carrico 357
Malcolm Perry 366
Robert A. Frazier 390
Ronald Simmons 441
Cortlandt Cunningham 451
Joseph D. Nicol 496

COMMISSION EXHIBITS INTRODUCED

Exhibit No.: Page
128 31
425 95
426 2
429 23
430 55
431 55
432 55
433 55
434 55
435 55
436 55
437 55
438 55
439 55
440 55
441 55
442 55
443 55
444 55
445 55
446 55
447 55
448 55
449 75
450 55
451 95
452 55
453 95
454 95
455 95
456 95
459–1 134
460 132
477 147
478 147
479 147
480 157
481 157
482 157
483 183
484 183
485 183
486 183
487 183
488 183
489 183
490 183
491 183
492 183
493 194
494 217
495 217
496 217
viii497 236
498 236
499 236
500 236
501 236
502 236
503 236
504 236
505 236
506 236
507 280
508 290
509 290
510 290
511 290
512 290
513 290
514 290
515 290
516 294
517 294
518 302
519 302
520 304
521 314
522 314
523 314
524 314
525 317
526 317
527 321
528 324
529 339
530 339
531 339
532 339
534 339
535 341
536 341
537 357
538 357
539 357
540 392
541 394
542 397
543 399
544 399
545 399
546 401
547 401
548 403
549 403
550 404
551 404
552 404
553 404
554 404
555 405
556 408
557 415
558 415
559 419
560 420
561 423
562 424
563 425
564 427
565 427
566 430
567 432
568 432
569 435
570 436
572 437
573 439
574 441
575 441
576 444
577 444
578 444
579 445
580 445
581 445
582 445
583 445
584 445
585 450
586 450
587 453
588 453
589 454
590 454
591 454
592 459
593 462
594 465
595 466
596 467
597 467
598 467
599 467
600 467
601 467
602 474
603 474
604 474
605 474
606 488
607 489
608 499
609 500
610 500
611 501
612 502
613 505
614 506
615 506
616 507
617 507
618 507
619 508
620 508
621 508
622 508
623 508
624 509
625 512

1

Hearings Before the President's Commission
on the
Assassination of President Kennedy

Thursday, March 19, 1964—Afternoon Session
TESTIMONY OF RUTH HYDE PAINE RESUMED

The President's Commission reconvened at 2:05 p.m.

Mr. Jenner. May we proceed, Mr. Chairman?

Mr. McCloy. Yes; we are all ready whenever you are. You are still under affirmation.

Mr. Jenner. I was at the point of describing the driver's license application, but before I do that, Mrs. Paine, may I hand you the document again?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. It has been marked Commission Exhibit 426. You were making a comparison with the block printing on that document with like block printing that you testified yesterday had been written in your address book. I have forgotten the exhibit number, but in your address book which you have before you——

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And the printing in your address book to which you were addressing yourself was what?

Mrs. Paine. His printing of the place where he worked in April of 1963.

Mr. Jenner. And that is Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall?

Mrs. Paine. Right.

Mr. Jenner. You were comparing that printing which you saw him put in your address book with what?

Mrs. Paine. The printing on this application for Texas driver's license.

Mr. Jenner. And any particular printing on that application?

Mrs. Paine. Was put in in pen. I do observe that the printing here uses a mixture of upper case and lower case letters, as does the printing in my phone book, most of it being block upper case.

Mr. Jenner. The form and shape of the printing in both of the documents is——

Mrs. Paine. Is similar.

Mr. Jenner. Similar. All right, thank you.

Mr. Chairman, because of the point raised by Representative Ford with particular reference to the word "photographer" which, by the way, is misspelled, it is spelled "f-o-t-o-g-r-a-p-e-r," and things of that sort do occur as you have already noted in many of his writings, very bad misspellings.

Mr. McCloy. Yes, his grammar seems to be better than this spelling.

Mr. Jenner. Yes. This form is an official form printed of the Texas State License Bureau entitled "Application for Texas driver's license," on the line provided for "name" there appears over "first name", "Lee"; over "middle name", "Harvey"; and "last name", "Oswald."

The second set of spaces, provisions for address, birth, and occupation. He gives as his address, 2545 West Fifth Street, Irving, Tex. Was that the address of their home when you first became acquainted with them?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. Is the address 2545 Irving Street familiar to you?

Mrs. Paine. I think it is 2515.

2 Mr. Jenner. Perhaps we will have to have it interpreted by someone else. It looks like a "4" to me, but it may be a "1." This birthday, October 18, 1939. The age last birthday 24, and then under "occupation" appears the word I have already related. Sex, male; color of eyes, gray; weight, 146 pounds; race the letter "C"; color of hair, brown; height, 5 foot 9 inches.

Mr. McCloy. Were you about to comment?

Mrs. Paine. I was interested in his comment on his race.

Mr. Jenner. I assume C means Caucasian. There are a series of questions, printed questions on the form, and he answered them, they are from 1 to 12, as follows:

"Question No. 1" he answers in the negative, "Have you ever held a Texas license?"

Question No. 2. All these are in the negative.

"Have you ever been examined for a Texas license?

"Have you ever held a license in any other State?

"Have you ever been denied a license?

"Has your license and driving privilege ever been suspended, revoked, or canceled?

"Have you ever been convicted of driving while intoxicated, failure to stop and render aid, aggravated assault with a motor vehicle, negligent homicide with a motor vehicle or murder with a motor vehicle?"

All answered in the negative.

"Have you ever been convicted of any other moving traffic violation?

"Have you ever been involved as a driver in a motor vehicle accident?

"Have you ever been subject to losses of consciousness or muscular control?

"Have you ever been addicted to the use of intoxicating liquor or narcotic drugs?

"Do you have any physical or mental defects?"

And, lastly: "Have you ever been a patient in a hospital for mental illness?"

The side as to the driving record, that is the reverse side, nothing appears thereon, and nothing in any portion of the form which deals with the record of his examination.

I am a little at a loss, Mr. Chairman, as to whether I should offer this in evidence at the present moment, because it is a document found among his effects in his room, and my statement of fact would be pure hearsay.

Mr. McCloy. How did we get in possession of it?

Mr. Jenner. It was supplied to us by the FBI.

The document was turned over to the FBI. May I withhold offering the document in evidence? We may have another witness who will be able to qualify it.

Mr. McCloy. Who can identify it?

Mr. Jenner. I am sure we will have a witness. We do want the document in evidence. [Commission Exhibit No. 426 is also Commission Exhibit No. 112, vol. I, p. 113.]

Identifying as Commission Exhibit 427 a form of employee identification questionnaire of the Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall Co. Please examine Exhibit 427. I direct your attention to the signature in the lower left-hand corner. Are you familiar with that signature?

Mrs. Paine. I can't say I am familiar with it.

Mr. Jenner. Did you ever have any discussion with Lee Oswald relating to his obtaining of a position with Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And when did that discussion occur?

Mrs. Paine. In New Orleans on the second trip, the end of September, when we talked about the possibility of Marina's coming back to have the baby in Texas where they could qualify as one year residents, he equipped me to show that he had been in Texas, and in Dallas for a year by giving me a receipt or part of a paycheck, I don't know just what it was, with the Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall name on it, in October.

Mr. Jenner. What was the purpose——

Mrs. Paine. He was supplying me with documents that would admit her to Parkland Hospital as a patient. He gave me his——

Mr. Jenner. To show the necessary——

3 Mrs. Paine. That he had worked with Stovall.

Mr. Jenner. And the necessary residential period of time in Texas?

Mrs. Paine. And the necessary residence.

Mr. Jenner. I see.

Did you take that document with you?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; I did.

Mr. Jenner. And what did you do with it?

Mrs. Paine. Took it to Parkland Hospital. And subsequently returned it to him.

Mr. Jenner. For what purpose had you gone to Parkland Hospital?

Mrs. Paine. For prenatal care and care at the time of the birth of Marina Oswald's second child.

Mr. Jenner. And is Parkland Hospital a public institution in Dallas?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. With the necessary residential period of time, Marina, if she had qualified in that respect, or did qualify then she could receive treatment with respect to the birth of her child either at no cost to her or at reduced cost, is that correct?

Mrs. Paine. I understood it to be cost fitted to their ability to pay.

Mr. Jenner. And so you did, yourself, affirmatively arrange that?

Mrs. Paine. That is right. What arrangement?

Mr. Jenner. Affirmatively. You did it yourself?

Mrs. Paine. Oh, yes.

Mr. Jenner. We have now reached the summer period of 1963, and covered some of it in part. My recollection of your testimony is that you vacationed in the summer of 1963.

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. You visited various members of your family up north?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. You departed Irving, Tex., some time in July, is that correct?

Mrs. Paine. I believe it was the 27th of July.

Mr. Jenner. And just tell us whom of your family you visited and where you visited, without telling us what you did.

Mrs. Paine. I visited my mother-in-law and stepfather-in-law.

Mr. Jenner. That is Mr. and Mrs. Young, Arthur Young?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. In Paoli, Pa.?

Mrs. Paine. I first went to Naushon Island off the coast of Massachusetts.

Mr. Jenner. Were you driving in the station wagon?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; I was.

Mr. Jenner. With your children?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And you went from there to where? Whom did you visit next?

Mrs. Paine. How detailed do you want to be?

Mr. Jenner. Just tell us whom you visited is all.

Mrs. Paine. I stopped and saw Miss Mary Forman, in Connecticut, one night.

Mr. Jenner. She is an old friend of yours?

Mrs. Paine. She is an old friend of mine from Columbus, Ohio, and went on then to Paoli the next day, and stayed there, again with the Youngs, until the early part of September.

Mr. McCloy. Is that Paoli, Pa.?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. Did you visit your mother and your father or either of them?

Mrs. Paine. My father came to Paoli and visited me there.

Mr. Jenner. Did I ask you yesterday, Mrs. Paine, and please forgive me if this is a repetition, the occupation of your father.

Mrs. Paine. He is an insurance underwriter; he composes the fine print.

Mr. Jenner. Was he at one time an actuary?

Mrs. Paine. What does actuary mean?

Mr. Jenner. A man who computes the probabilities and works in connection with——

Mrs. Paine. He may be. I am not certain exactly what his position is.

4 Mr. Jenner. For what company, please?

Mrs. Paine. The Nationwide Insurance Company.

Mr. Jenner. Where is their main office?

Mrs. Paine. In Columbus, Ohio.

Mr. Jenner. Your father visited you at Paoli. Did you see your mother during that summer period?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; I did. I saw her briefly on the way to Naushon Island, and then again I saw her on my way back to the south and west, in Columbus, Ohio.

Mr. Jenner. At Columbus, she was living there then?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Did you see your sister on that trip?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; I did.

Mr. Jenner. And where did you see her?

Mrs. Paine. She lives in suburban Washington, and I saw here there at her home. I also saw Michael's brother, and his wife, who live in Baltimore.

Mr. Jenner. Would you identify Michael's brother, please?

Mrs. Paine. His name is Cameron Paine, C-a-m-e-r-o-n.

Mr. Jenner. What is his occupation or business?

Mrs. Paine. He works with Social Security.

Mr. Jenner. For the State or the United States Government?

Mrs. Paine. For the United States Government.

Mr. Jenner. That covers generally the people you visited that summer?

Mrs. Paine. No. I also visited my brother, in Yellow Springs, Ohio.

Mr. Jenner. That is your brother, the physician?

Mrs. Paine. That is right. I visited with friends in the Philadelphia area, while I was at Paoli.

Mr. Jenner. Do you mean by the term "friends" there to mean in the sense I would mean friends?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Or members of the Friends Society?

Mrs. Paine. Some were both, but I meant it as personal friends. And then I saw also friends, also both, capital F and small, in Richmond, Ind., and then from there I headed directly south to New Orleans.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mrs. Paine. Shall I go on to arrival at New Orleans?

Mr. Jenner. This spanned a period of a little over 2 months, did it not?

Mrs. Paine. It was just short of 2 months total that I was away from my home in Irving.

Mr. Jenner. And in the meantime you had had the correspondence with Marina that you had related this morning, during the course of your going along, had you?

Mrs. Paine. During that vacation she and I exchanged one letter each.

Mr. Jenner. Yes. Had you advised her that you were coming to New Orleans?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. For what purpose?

Mrs. Paine. To visit. And to talk.

Mr. Jenner. About what?

Mrs. Paine. To see if it was appropriate for her to come to my house for the birth of the baby.

Mr. Jenner. At that moment, at that time, when you were about to return or about to go to New Orleans, this concept was limited to her coming to be with you for the birth of the child?

Mrs. Paine. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. At least temporarily she abandoned the notion of joining you on a semipermanent basis?

Mrs. Paine. It was abandoned. It was not taken up again.

Mr. Jenner. You arrived in New Orleans?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. The 20th of September.

Mr. McCloy. Maybe you are going to get to this. Maybe I am anticipating5 your case, so to speak, but during these visits that you paid to your friends on this trip, did you talk about your association with Marina?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; I did.

Mr. McCloy. You did?

Mrs. Paine. Quite a lot. It was rather an important thing to me.

Mr. Jenner. I have some questions to put to Mrs. Paine on that subject, but they are in the area of the collateral that I spoke of this morning, so I did not go into them at the moment.

Now, starting with your arrival in New Orleans, you got there in the morning or afternoon?

Mrs. Paine. I arrived midafternoon, as I remember.

Mr. Jenner. And you went directly to their home, did you?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. What did you find when you reached the home?

Mrs. Paine. I was expected. They had groceries bought.

Mr. Jenner. Who was home?

Mrs. Paine. Marina and Lee, and the baby June.

Mr. Jenner. I don't have a calendar before me. The 20th of September is what day of the week?

Mrs. Paine. Is a Friday.

Mr. Jenner. 1963?

Mrs. Paine. I spent the night there that night and the succeeding 2 nights. Lee who bought the groceries while I was there, was host. At one point Mrs. Ruth Kloepfer, who has been previously mentioned, came and visited with her sister—excuse me, with her two daughters. This was after I had made a telephone call to her.

Mr. Jenner. These daughters were adults or were they children?

Mrs. Paine. The daughters were grown daughters.

Mr. Jenner. Grown?

Mrs. Paine. In college, college-age daughters, and one had been studying Russian, didn't know very much. I was impressed with the role that Lee took of the general host, talking with them, looking over some slides that one of the daughters had brought of her trip, recent trip to Russia, showing sights that they recognized, I guess, in Moscow.

Mr. Jenner. That the girls recognized?

Mrs. Paine. No; that Lee and Marina recognized of Moscow, or Lee did, at least. And he was very outgoing and warm and friendly. He seemed in good spirits that weekend. I found him—he made a much better impression on me, I will say, that weekend than the last weekend I had seen him, which was in May.

I could see, and it was the first time that I felt that he was concerned about his wife's physical welfare and about where she could go to have the baby, and he seemed distinctly relieved to consider the possibility of her going to Dallas County and getting care through Parkland Hospital, and clearly pleased that I wanted to offer this, and pleased to have her go, which relieved my mind a good deal.

I hadn't wanted to have such an arrangement come about without his being interested in having it that way.

Mr. Jenner. During the course of this, did you say you were there 3 days?

Mrs. Paine. Three nights, two days.

Mr. Jenner. Two days and three nights; there was then a discussion between yourself and Marina, yourself on the one hand, Marina and Lee on the other, in which it was determined that Marina would return with you to Irving, Tex., for the purpose of having the birth of her child in Irving?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. And Lee did participate in those discussions?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Now, during the course of the time you were there, was there any discussion of the fact that Lee was at that time jobless and would be seeking a position?

Mrs. Paine. I knew from Marina's letters that he was out of work.

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

6 Mrs. Paine. We did have one short conversation and this was in English. I began it. He was willing to proceed in English.

Mr. Jenner. This is one of the few occasions in which he permitted himself to speak with you in English?

Mrs. Paine. That is correct. I asked him if he thought his application was any impediment to his getting and keeping a job. He said he didn't know, and went on to say that he had already lost his job when he was arrested for passing out pro-Cuba literature here in New Orleans. And he said he spent the night in jail, and I said, "Did Marina know that?"

"Yes, she knew it."

Mr. Jenner. I want you to finish the conversation.

Mrs. Paine. This was as much of a revelation, accurate revelation of what he had done as I ever got from him.

Mr. Jenner. Excuse me, Mrs. Paine. I am going to get into that with you.

I would like to have you finish the conversation first before you give your reaction.

Mrs. Paine. That was the end of it.

Mr. Jenner. That was the end?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Now, with respect to the Fair Play for Cuba Committee activity, had you up to this moment heard of Lee Harvey Oswald's activities, if any, of any character and to any extent, with respect to the Fair Play for Cuba Committee?

Mrs. Paine. I had not heard of any such activities.

The name of the committee was not mentioned. I did not know the name of the committee until it appeared in the newspapers after the assassination.

Mr. Jenner. Now, how did Lee Harvey Oswald describe that? What did he say?

Mrs. Paine. He said that he was passing out pro-Castro or pro-Cuba literature, and that there were some anti-Castro people who also caused some disturbance, and that he had spent the night in jail.

Mr. Jenner. And did I understand you correctly to say that he assigned that as a possible——

Mrs. Paine. No, on the contrary.

Mr. Jenner. As possibly having had some effect on his loss of position?

Mrs. Paine. On the contrary, he made the point that he had already lost his job before this happened.

Mr. Jenner. That he had lost his position before the Fair Play for Cuba incident?

Mrs. Paine. So that he did not know, he could not cite an instance where his application had made it difficult for him in his work.

Mr. Jenner. Had you had conversation with Marina prior to this time in which she might have suggested or did suggest that his application and his history of having gone to Russia and then returned to the United States as having an adverse effect on his efforts to obtain employment?

Mrs. Paine. No; nothing of that nature was said.

Mr. Jenner. That was never discussed in your presence?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. Was it ever discussed in your presence or raised in your presence by anybody other than Lee Harvey Oswald or Marina?

Mrs. Paine. Not to my recollection.

Mr. Jenner. Was it ever discussed with you by anybody even though they weren't present? By "they" I mean Lee and Marina. You recall none? This is the first instance of any discussion of that character, and you raised it, did you?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. And you have exhausted your recollection of this particular conversation, have you?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. I gather from your testimony that you found the relations between Marina and Lee improved on this occasion?

Mrs. Paine. They certainly appeared to be improved. The weekend time7 was certainly much more comfortable than the weekend in early May had been when I first was in New Orleans.

Mr. Jenner. You described yesterday an irritability as between Marina and Lee when you were there in the spring?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And that that had continued during all the time you were in New Orleans. You found the situation different?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. On your return in the fall?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Now, you have already related the incident about touring Bourbon Street, and that occurred on this occasion, did it?

Mrs. Paine. During that weekend, yes; those days.

Mr. Jenner. And Lee Harvey Oswald stayed home that evening or that day. It was late in the day, was it, rather than the evening?

Mrs. Paine. It was early evening.

Mr. Jenner. Early evening. What did he do at home, do you know?

Mrs. Paine. When we got back Marina noticed that the dishes had been cleaned up and put away. I take it back, they had been washed, not put away. And I believe he did some packing.

Mr. Jenner. In anticipation of your returning to Irving, Tex., with Marina?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

I was impressed during these 2 days with his willingness to help with the packing. He did virtually all the packing and all the loading of the things into the car. I simply thought that gentlemanly of him at the time. I have wondered since whether he wasn't doing it by preference to having me handle it.

Mr. Jenner. I was about to ask you your impression in that direction. Did he seem eager to do the packing?

Mrs. Paine. He did, distinctly.

Mr. Jenner. Distinctly eager?

Mrs. Paine. I recall he began as early, you see, as Saturday night and we left Tuesday morning.

Mr. Jenner. And you are aware of the fact he did some packing while you and Marina were on tour?

Mrs. Paine. It couldn't have been Saturday night, because I only arrived on Saturday. More likely it was Sunday. Is Bourbon Street open on Sunday?

Mr. Jenner. Bourbon Street is open all the time.

Mrs. Paine. Then it would have to be——

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. Jenner. Did you have the feeling at the time that he was quite eager to do the packing?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And did you have the feeling it was just a touch out of the ordinary?

Mrs. Paine. It didn't occur to me that it was.

Mr. Jenner. But on reflection now, you think it was out of the ordinary?

Mrs. Paine. On reflection now I think it wasn't simply a gesture of the gentleman.

Mr. Jenner. But at the time it didn't arouse enough interest on your part to have a question in your mind?

Mrs. Paine. No; I would have expected it of other men, but this was the first I saw him taking that much interest.

Mr. Jenner. It did arrest your attention on that score, in any event?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Now, you were there for 2 full days and 3 evenings. Would you tell us, conserving your description in your words, what did you do during these 2 days and 3 nights. When I say "you", I am including all three of you.

Mrs. Paine. Of course, afternoons we usually spent in rest for the children, having all small children, all of us having small children.

8 Mr. Jenner. Whenever this doesn't include Lee Harvey Oswald would you be good enough to tell us?

Mrs. Paine. When he was not present?

Mr. Jenner. That is right.

Mrs. Paine. My recollection is that he was present most of the weekend. He went out to buy groceries, came in with a cheery call to his two girls, saying, "Yabutchski," which means girls, the Russian word for girls, as he came in the door. It was more like Harvey than I had seen him before. He remembered this time. I saw him reading a pocketbook.

Mr. Jenner. The Commission is interested in his readings. To the best of your ability to recall, tell us. You noticed it now, of course.

Mrs. Paine. Yes. I don't recall the title of it. I do recall that I loaned him a pocketbook at one point. I can't even recall what it was about. But I might if I saw it.

Mr. Jenner. Was it a book on any political subject?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Representative Ford. Was it an English book?

Mrs. Paine. But it was in English, unless it was a parallel text of Russian-English short stories, something like that, I can't remember. It might have been Reid's Ten Days That Shook the World, or something like that, but I am not at all certain. I would have thought he would have read that, anyway.

Representative Ford. Was it a book that you recall having had with you that summer? Ten Days——

Mrs. Paine. It is a book I should still own, and I don't recall for sure whether I have that one.

Representative Ford. Ten Days That Shook the World?

Mrs. Paine. I am very shaky in my memory. I had prepared a collection of books for the course in Russian at Saint Marks School, and they included history and literature and English.

Representative Ford. But you were still anticipating teaching Russian at Saint Marks School in Irving?

Mrs. Paine. That is right, and this was just part of a bibliography of things of interest that included some of the more historical texts from many points of view regarding Soviet life.

Representative Ford. I interrupted you.

Mr. Jenner. I was asking you to tell us in general what was done during those 2 days and 3 nights.

Mrs. Paine. We went out to wash diapers at the local washiteria, and stayed while they were done and went back.

Mr. Jenner. You and Lee?

Mrs. Paine. I don't think that he went. My recollection is that Marina and I went.

Mr. Jenner. He remained home?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Did you visit with any of their in-laws?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. Did they visit while you were there?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. Did they come there?

Mrs. Paine. No. I have already referred to a visit from Mrs. Kloepfer, with her two girls which must have been the day before we left or Monday.

No, Sunday, it must have been Sunday. It wasn't much time altogether, because Sunday was the day before we left.

Mr. Jenner. Is Mrs. Kloepfer a native American?

Mrs. Paine. I have no idea. She speaks natively.

Mr. Jenner. But she does have a command of the Russian language?

Mrs. Paine. Oh, no, no. Her daughter has had 1 year of Russian in college, and was much too shy to begin to say anything, thoroughly overwhelmed by meeting someone who really spoke.

Mr. Jenner. I must have misinterpreted your testimony this morning.

Mrs. Paine. Her daughter had visited in the Soviet Union just recently and had slides that she had taken that summer.

9 Mr. Jenner. But Mrs. Kloepfer, as far as you are informed, had no command of the Russian language?

Mrs. Paine. Absolutely none. She was the only person I knew to try to contact to ask if she knew or could find anyone in New Orleans who knew Russian, and she said she didn't know anyone, over the phone.

Mr. Jenner. I see.

Mrs. Paine. And I, therefore, also tried to get Mrs. Blanchard to seek out someone who could talk to Marina.

Mr. Jenner. Mrs. Blanchard had no command of the Russian language, as far as you knew?

Mrs. Paine. I would be certain she didn't.

Mr. Jenner. Have you described for us generally the course of events in the 2 days and 3 nights you were there?

Mrs. Paine. Well, much of the last portion, some of the last portion of Sunday was spent packing up. It was a very well loaded automobile by then, because I already had a great many of my own, including a boat on the top of the car to which we attached the playpen, stroller, and other things on top. I should describe in detail the packing, which was another thing that made me feel that he did care for his wife.

We left on Monday morning, yes, Monday morning early, the 23d, and it seemed to me he was very sorry to see her go. They kissed goodbye and we got in the car and I started down intending really to go no farther than the first gas station because I had a soft rear tire and I wasn't going to have a flat with this great pile of goods on top of not only my car but my spare, so I went down to the first gas station that was open a couple blocks down, and prepared to buy a tire.

Lee having watched us, walked down to the gas station and talked and visited while I arranged to have the tire changed, bought a new one and had it changed. I felt he wished or thought he should be offering something toward the cost of the tire. He said, "That sure is going to cost a lot, isn't it?" And I said, "Yes; but car owners have to expect that." This is as close as he came to offering financial help. But it was at least a gesture.

Mr. Jenner. Then there was no financial help given you?

Mrs. Paine. There was no financial help.

Mr. Jenner. Given you by Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. In connection with the return of Marina to Irving, Tex.?

Mrs. Paine. And he did not at this time give her, so far as I know, any small change or petty cash to take with her, whereas when he left her in late April to go to my house, she to go to my house, and he to go to New Orleans, he left $10 or so with her. She spent that on incidentals.

Mr. Jenner. Mrs. Paine, did he ever, during all of the period of your acquaintance with the Oswalds, ever offer any reimbursement financially or anything at all to you?

Mrs. Paine. No; he never offered anything to me.

Mr. Jenner. Was there any discussion between you and him on the subject?

Mrs. Paine. No. As close as we came to such discussion was saying that when they had enough money and perhaps after Christmas they would get an apartment again, and I judged, felt that he was saving money towards renting a furnished apartment for his family.

Mr. Jenner. Now, I used the term "offer." Did he ever offer? Did he in fact ever give you any money?

Mrs. Paine. He in fact never gave me any money, either. He did give Marina.

Mr. Jenner. The one incident of which you are speaking or on other occasions?

Mrs. Paine. There was that one incident in April.

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mrs. Paine. He did give her, I think, $10, just prior, or some time close to the time of the assassination, because she planned to buy some shoes.

Mr. Jenner. Shoes for herself, or her children?

Mrs. Paine. For herself, flats. But when he gave that to her I am not certain. I do know that we definitely planned to go out on Friday afternoon, the 22d of November, to buy those shoes. We did not go.

10 Mr. Jenner. That is you girls planned to do that?

Mrs. Paine. She and I did; yes.

Representative Ford. Mr. Jenner, do you plan to ask questions about the process of packing of the car?

Mr. Jenner. Yes; I do. Now, this improvement in the attitude of Lee Harvey Oswald, arrested your deliberate attention—didn't it?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; it did. It was really the first I had felt any sympathy for him at all.

Mr. Jenner. Did you have any feeling that he, in turn, felt that he might not be seeing Marina any more?

Mrs. Paine. I had no feeling of that whatever.

Mr. Jenner. None whatsoever.

Mrs. Paine. He told me that he was going to try to look for work in Houston, and possibly in Philadelphia; these were the two names he mentioned.

Mr. Jenner. We are interested in that, in this particular phase of the investigation. Did he make that statement in your presence, in the presence of Marina?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall.

Mr. Jenner. I take it that this was elicited by a discussion of the subject of his going to look for work after you girls had left, is that correct?

Mrs. Paine. About what he would do after we left?

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Now, would you repeat just what he said on that subject?

Mrs. Paine. He told me that he was going to go to Houston to look for work, or possibly to Philadelphia.

Mr. Jenner. Did he say anything about having any acquaintances or friends in either of those towns?

Mrs. Paine. He did. You recalled to my mind he said he had a friend in Houston.

Mr. Jenner. Did he mention other towns he might undertake to visit?

Mrs. Paine. No; he didn't. Or any other friends.

Mr. Jenner. Was there any inference or did you infer from anything he said or which might have been said in your presence that after you girls left he intended to leave New Orleans? To look——

Mrs. Paine. He was definitely planning to leave New Orleans after we left.

Mr. Jenner. Promptly?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. You had that definite impression?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And he put it in terms of leaving New Orleans to go to Houston, or what was the other town?

Mrs. Paine. Possibly Philadelphia.

Mr. Jenner. Possibly Philadelphia. Now, during all that weekend, was there any discussion of anybody going to Mexico?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. Was the subject of Mexico discussed at any time and in any respect?

Mrs. Paine. Not at any time nor any respect.

Mr. Jenner. On the trip back to Irving, Tex., did Marina say anything on the subject of Mexico?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. Did you girls discuss what Lee was going to do during this interim period?

Mrs. Paine. Only to the extent that he was looking for a job, but I think that discussion, my memory of it comes from a discussion with Lee rather than a discussion with her. I may say that we never talked about any particular time, he would see Marina again.

Mr. Jenner. You did not?

Mrs. Paine. He kissed her a very fond goodbye, both at home and then again at the gas station, and I felt he cared and he would certainly see her. And this I recalled the other night. It should be put in here. As he was giving me this material, I have already mentioned, that indicated his claim to 1 year residence11 in Texas, I can't remember just what I said that elicited it from him, but some reference to, shall I say that you have gone, or how can I—what shall I say about the husband, where is the husband?

Mr. Jenner. Do the best in your own words.

Mrs. Paine. Shall I say that you have gone away or away looking for work or something? What shall I say about you?

Mr. Jenner. This is Marina?

Mrs. Paine. This is in English now, this one English conversation.

Mr. Jenner. By you?

Mrs. Paine. Apropos of being prepared to admit her to Parkland. I asked, what shall I say about him, that he is gone or what?

He said, "Oh, no, that might appear that I had abandoned her."

And I was glad to hear him say that he didn't at all want it to appear or to feel of himself that he had abandoned her.

Mr. Jenner. Did he say anything as to what representations you might make to Parkland Hospital and other State authorities in that respect?

Mrs. Paine. No; I don't recall.

Mr. Jenner. On the trip back to—may I defer the packing until Representative Ford returns—on the trip back to Irving, Tex., did you and Marina discuss the subject matter of Dee's going to Houston, Tex., or to Philadelphia to look for a job?

Mrs. Paine. No; we didn't.

Mr. Jenner. At any time during the weekend you were in New Orleans or driving from New Orleans to Irving, Tex., was the friend identified, the supposed friend?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. In Houston, identified?

Mrs. Paine. No; I remember wondering if there was one.

Mr. Jenner. You wondered at the time?

Mrs. Paine. I wondered to myself if there was one.

Mr. Jenner. What made you wonder?

Mrs. Paine. I may say, also, I wondered, as I have already indicated for the Commission, I had wondered, from time to time, whether this was a man who was working as a spy or in any way a threat to the Nation, and I thought, "This is the first I have heard anything about a contact. I am interested to know if this is a real thing or something unreal." And waited to see really whether I would learn any more about it. But this thought crossed my mind.

Mr. Jenner. It did? Now, many of my questions are directed towards trying to find out what this man did with his time. When he went job hunting, according to some of the records here, he appeared to return home rather promptly. That is, he would leave in the morning but he would be home before noontime.

Mrs. Paine. Oh?

Mr. Jenner. Did you notice anything of that nature?

Mrs. Paine. I never saw him when he was job hunting. The times in New Orleans, of course, I wasn't there. The times in April he was job hunting from a base of 214 Neely Street, and in October he was operating from the base of the room on Beckley Street. So I never saw him.

Mr. Jenner. So that as far as—this I would like to bring out, Mr. Chairman—as far as your contact with Lee Harvey Oswald as such, Mrs. Paine, your opportunities for knowing what he did with his time were limited, were they not?

Mrs. Paine. They were limited.

Mr. Jenner. That is in the spring, there was this New Orleans period when he was absent in New Orleans altogether during the 2 weeks that Marina was with you?

Mrs. Paine. Right.

Mr. Jenner. It is the period preceding the trip to New Orleans that they lived a little distance from you, and that was in a period of your really becoming more acquainted with them. Were you aware of what Mr. Oswald was doing during the daytime, or evening along in that period of time?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. In the fall when you saw him then for 2 days and 3 nights in12 the early fall of 1963, he was out of work. He was at the home substantially all of that time?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. You returned to Irving, then, and you didn't see him until he appeared as you testified this morning, on October 4, 1963?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. Now, he was in your home from October 4, 1963, until what was it—the 15th of October? Is that correct?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. He was not?

Mrs. Paine. Not at all. He was in the home for the weekend of October 4. I then took him to the bus around noon on the 7th, that is a Monday, to the Intercity Bus between Irving and Dallas. You can't walk to it from my house. There is no way to get anywhere from my house unless you use a car.

Mr. Jenner. We are interested in that, also, Mrs. Paine, about his ability to get to your home from whatever means of public transportation there was. Would you be good enough to describe the problems in that connection?

Mrs. Paine. He called on the afternoon of the 4th.

Mr. Jenner. Would you give us the problems first, the physical problems? Where was the bus located? What was the bus terminal? How far was it from your home?

Mrs. Paine. The bus terminal in Irving where you could get a bus going to Dallas was several miles away, 2 to 3 miles away from my home, a 10 minute car ride.

Mr. Jenner. And what means of transportation was there from the bus terminal to your home?

Mrs. Paine. Walking?

Mr. Jenner. Any public transportation.

Mrs. Paine. There was nothing public.

Mr. Jenner. You would have to hitchhike or walk or be driven?

Mrs. Paine. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. I take it, then, there were occasions when you would have to go and pick him up at the bus terminal?

Mrs. Paine. I recall at least one such occasion, and that was on the 12th of October, a Saturday, which was the next time he came out.

Mr. Jenner. That was the next time following the October 4 weekend?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. When was the first time that you heard, or had any notice of the fact that this man had been in Mexico, or possibly may have been in Mexico?

Mrs. Paine. They are two different questions. I will answer the first one. I heard that he had been in Mexico after the assassination in one of the papers.

Mr. Jenner. Was that the first time?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; that was the first time. Looking back then, with that knowledge, I could see that I might have guessed this from two other things that had happened.

Mr. Jenner. All right, give us them in sequence, please.

Mrs. Paine. One was, I can describe by an incident that took place at our home, I am not certain which weekend, one of the times that Lee was out. He wanted to drill a hole in a silver coin for Marina so she could wear it around her neck, and presumed to use my husband's drill press, which is one of the many things in the garage, and I complained. But he convinced me that he knew how to operate it and knew just what he was doing.

So I said, all right, and he proceeded to drill a hole in this coin, and then Marina showed it to me later. I didn't look closely at it. It wasn't until—although I could have perfectly well in this situation. I did see that it was a foreign coin.

Mr. Jenner. It was a what?

Mrs. Paine. It was a foreign coin. It was not a coin I recognized. It was about the size of a silver dollar, but not as thick, as I remember it. And it was not then until perhaps a week or something less after the assassination when an FBI agent asked me was there anything left in the house that would be pertinent, and he and I went together and looked in the drawer in the room13 where Marina had been staying, and found there this drilled coin, looked at it closely, and it was a peso, the Republic of Mexico. This is the first I had looked at it closely. Also, with this peso was a Spanish-English Dictionary.

My tendency to be very hesitant to look into other people's things was rather put aside at this point, and I was very curious to see what this book was, and I observed that the price of it, or what I took to be the price was in a corner at the front was not in English money, and at the back in his hand or somebody's hand in small scribble was the notation, "Buy tickets for bull fight, get silver bracelet for Marina" and there in the drawer also was a silver bracelet with the name Marina on it, which I took to be associated with this notation.

Mr. Jenner. Was it inscribed on the bracelet?

Mrs. Paine. It was inscribed, the name Marina. And some picture postcards with no message, just a picture of Mexico City in this dictionary, and these I gave to the——

Mr. Jenner. Had you seen any of these items in your home at anytime prior to this occasion that you have now described?

Mrs. Paine. None of these items except the peso which I had not noticed to be that, seen it, of course.

Mr. Jenner. Now, that is one incident.

Mrs. Paine. That is one incident. Another refers to a rough draft of a letter that Lee wrote and left this rough draft on my secretary desk.

Mr. Jenner. Would you describe the incident? In the meantime, I will obtain the rough draft here among my notes.

Mrs. Paine. All right. This was on the morning of November 9, Saturday. He asked to use my typewriter, and I said he might.

Mr. Jenner. Excuse me. Would you please state to the Commission why you are reasonably firm that it was the morning of November 9? What arrests your attention to that particular date?

Mrs. Paine. Because I remember the weekend that this note or rough draft remained on my secretary desk. He spent the weekend on it. And the weekend was close and its residence on that desk was stopped also on the evening of Sunday, the 10th, when I moved everything in the living room around; the whole arrangement of the furniture was changed, so that I am very clear in my mind as to what weekend this was.

Mr. Jenner. All right, go ahead.

Mrs. Paine. He was using the typewriter. I came and put June in her high-chair near him at the table where he was typing, and he moved something over what he was typing from, which aroused my curiosity.

Mr. Jenner. Why did that arouse your curiosity?

Mrs. Paine. It appeared he didn't want me to see what he was writing or to whom he was writing. I didn't know why he had covered it. If I had peered around him, I could have looked at the typewriter and the page in it, but I didn't.

Mr. Jenner. It did make you curious?

Mrs. Paine. It did make me curious. Then, later that day, I noticed a scrawling handwriting on a piece of paper on the corner at the top of my secretary desk in the living room. It remained there.

Sunday morning I was the first one up. I took a closer look at this, a folded sheet of paper folded at the middle. The first sentence arrested me because I knew it to be false. And for this reason I then proceeded——

Mr. Jenner. Would you just hold it at that moment. This is for purposes of identification, Mr. Chairman, rather than admission of the document in evidence. I have marked pages 321 and 322 of Commission Document No. 385 generally referred to by the staff as the Gemberling Report. He is an FBI agent. I have now placed that before the witness. You examined that yesterday with me, did you not, Mrs. Paine?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. The document I am now showing you?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Is that a transcript, a literal transcript of the document you saw?

Mrs. Paine. Of course the document was in English, transcribing of what was said; yes.

14 Mr. Jenner. By transcript I meant that it has been retyped, that it is literal.

Mrs. Paine. That is the document; yes.

Mr. Jenner. That is interesting. You noticed that the document was in English.

Mrs. Paine. Oh, yes.

Mr. Jenner. You saw it. And it was folded at what point, now that you have the transcript of it before you?

Mrs. Paine. At the top of what I could see of the paper. In other words, it was just below the fold. It said, "The FBI is not now interested in my activities."

Mr. Jenner. Is that what arrested your attention?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. What did you do?

Mrs. Paine. I then proceeded to read the whole note, wondering, knowing this to be false, wondering why he was saying it. I was irritated to have him writing a falsehood on my typewriter, I may say, too. I felt I had some cause to look at it.

Mr. Jenner. May I have your permission, Mr. Chairman. The document is short. It is relevant to the witness' testimony, and might I read it aloud in the record to draw your attention to it?

Mr. McCloy. Without objection.

Mr. Jenner. Mrs. Paine, would you help me by reading it, since you have it there.

Mrs. Paine. Do you want me to leave out all the crossed out——

Mr. Jenner. No; I wish you would indicate that too.

Mrs. Paine. "Dear Sirs:

"This is to inform you of events since my interview with comrade Kostine in the Embassy of the Soviet Union, Mexico City, Mexico."

(Discussion off the record.)

Mrs. Paine. He typed it early in the morning of that day because after he typed it we went to the place where you get the test for drivers. It was that same day.

Mr. Jenner. It was election day and the driver's license place was closed, is that correct?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And that was November 9?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Now you have reached the point where you are reading the letter on the morning of November 10.

Mrs. Paine. That is right; after I had noticed that it lay on my desk the previous evening.

"I was unable to remain in Mexico City (because I considered useless—)"—because—it is crossed out.

Mr. Jenner. Excuse me, Mr. Chairman. In this transcript wherever there are words stricken out, the transcriber has placed those words in parenthesis and transcribed the words, but then has written the words "crossed out" to indicate in the original the words crossed out.

Proceed, Mrs. Paine.

Mrs. Paine. "Indefinitely because of my (visa—crossed out) Mexican visa restrictions which was for 15 days only.

"(I had a—crossed out) I could not take a chance on applying for an extension unless I used my real name so I returned to the U.S.

"I and Marina Nicholyeva are now living in Dallas, Texas. (You all ready ha—crossed out).

"The FBI is not now interested in my activities in the progressive organization FPCC of which I was secretary in (New Orleans, La.—crossed out) New Orleans, Louisiana since I (am—crossed out) no longer (connected with—crossed out) live in that state.

"(November the November—crossed out) the FBI has visited us here in Texas on November 1st. Agent of the FBI James P. Hasty warned me that if I attempt to engage in FPCC activities in Texas the FBI will again take an 'interest' in me. The agent also 'suggested' that my wife could 'remain in the U.S. under15 FBI protection', that is, she could (refuse to return to the—crossed out) defect from the Soviet Union. Of course I and my wife strongly protested these tactics by the notorious FBI.

"(It was unfortun that the Soviet Embassy was unable to aid me in Mexico City but—crossed out) I had not planned to contact the Mexico City Embassy at all so of course they were unprepared for me. Had I been able to reach Havana as planned (I could have contacted—crossed out) the Soviet Embassy there (for the completion of would have been able to help me get the necessary documents I required assist me—crossed out) would have had time to assist me, but of course the stuip Cuban consule was at fault here. I am glad he has since been replaced by another."

Mr. Jenner. Now I would like to ask you a few questions about your reaction to that. You had read that in the quiet of your living room on Sunday morning, the 10th of November.

Mrs. Paine. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. And there were a number of things in that that you thought were untrue.

Mrs. Paine. Several things I knew to be untrue.

Mr. Jenner. You knew to be untrue. Were there things in there that alarmed you?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; I would say so.

Mr. Jenner. What were they?

Mrs. Paine. To me this—well, I read it and decided to make a copy.

Mr. Jenner. Would having the document back before you help you?

Mrs. Paine. No, no. I was just trying to think what to say first. And decided that I should have such a copy to give to an FBI agent coming again, or to call. I was undecided what to do. Meantime I made a copy.

Mr. Jenner. But you did have the instinct to report this to the FBI?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And you made a copy of the document?

Mrs. Paine. And I made a copy of the document which should be among your papers, because they have that too. And after having made it, while the shower was running, I am not used to subterfuge in any way, but then I put it back where it had been and it lay the rest of Sunday on my desk top, and of course I observed this too.

Mr. Jenner. That is that Lee didn't put it away, just left it out in the room?

Mrs. Paine. That he didn't put it away or didn't seem to care or notice or didn't recall that he had a rough draft lying around. I observed it was untrue that the FBI was no longer interested in him. I observed it was untrue that the FBI came——

Mr. Jenner. Why did you observe that that was untrue?

Mrs. Paine. Well, the FBI came and they asked me, they said——

Mr. Jenner. Had the FBI been making inquiries of you prior to that time?

Mrs. Paine. They had been twice.

Mr. Jenner. November 1 and——

Mrs. Paine. November 1, and they told me the 5. I made no record of it whatever.

Mr. Jenner. But it was a few days later?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; a few days later. And the first visit I understood to be a visit to convey to Marina that if any blackmail pressure was being put upon her, because of relatives back home, that she was invited, if she wished, to talk about this to the FBI. This is a far cry from being told she could defect from the Soviet Union, very strong words, and false both.

Mr. Jenner. Did you ever hear anything at all insofar as the FBI is concerned reported to you by Marina or Lee Harvey Oswald during all of your acquaintance with either of them of any suggestion by the FBI or anybody else that Marina defect in that context to the United States?

Mrs. Paine. No, absolutely not.

Mr. Jenner. Or anything of similar import?

Mrs. Paine. Nothing of similar import.

Mr. Jenner. I limited it to the FBI. Any agency of the Government of the United States?

16 Mrs. Paine. Nothing of that sort.

Mr. Jenner. And did you see or observe anything during all of that period of your acquaintance, which stimulated you to think at all or have any notion that any agency of the Government of the United States was seeking to induce her to defect?

Mrs. Paine. To the United States?

Mr. Jenner. To the United States.

Mrs. Paine. No, and her terminology in view of it was so completely different from such stereotyped and loaded words that I was seeing as I read this. What I was most struck with was what kind of man is this.

Mr. Jenner. Is who?

Mrs. Paine. Why is Lee Oswald writing this? What kind of man? Here is a false statement that she was invited to defect, false statement that the FBI is no longer interested, false statement that he was present, "they visited I and my wife."

Mr. Jenner. Was he present?

Mrs. Paine. He was not present. False statement that "I and my wife protested vigorously." Having not been present he could not protest.

Mr. Jenner. He was not present when the FBI interviewed you on November 1. Was Marina present then?

Mrs. Paine. She was present.

Mr. Jenner. And was Marina present when the FBI came later on November 5?

Mrs. Paine. She came into the room just after basically the very short visit was concluded.

Mr. Jenner. The second interview was a rather short one?

Mrs. Paine. The second interview was conducted standing up. He simply asked me did I know the address. My memory had been refreshed by him since.

Mr. Jenner. The first interview, however, was a rather lengthly one?

Mrs. Paine. But it was not strictly speaking an interview.

Mr. Jenner. What was it?

Mrs. Paine. It was, as Mr. Hosty has described to me later, and I think this was my impression too of it at the time, an informal opening for confidence. He presented himself. He talked. We conversed about the weather, about Texas, about the end of the last World War and changes in Germany at the time.

He mentioned that the FBI is very careful in their investigations not to bring anyone they suspect in public light until they have evidence to convict him in a proper court of law, that they did not convict by hearsay or public accusation.

He asked me, and here I am answering why I thought it was false to say the FBI is no longer interested in Lee Oswald; he asked first of all if I knew did Lee live there, and I said "No." Did I know where he lived? No, I didn't, but that it was in Dallas.

Did I know where he worked? Yes, I did.

And I said I thought Lee was very worried about losing this job, and the agent said that well, it wasn't their custom to approach the employer directly. I said that Lee would be there on the weekend, so far as I knew, that he could be seen then, if he was interested in talking to Lee.

I want to return now to the fact that I had seen these gross falsehoods and strong words, concluding with "notorious FBI" in this letter, and gone to say I wondered whether any of it was true, including the reference to going to Mexico, including the reference to using a false name, and I still wonder if that was true or false that he used an assumed name, though I no longer wonder whether he had actually gone.

Mr. Jenner. There was a subsequent incident in which you did learn that he used an assumed name, was there not?

Mrs. Paine. Yes, a week later.

Mr. Jenner. We will get to that in a moment. But was this——

Mrs. Paine. But this was the first indication I had that this man was a good deal queerer than I thought, and it didn't tell me, perhaps it should have but it didn't tell me just what sort of a queer he was. He addressed it "Dear Sirs."17 It looked to me like someone trying to make an impression, and choosing the words he thought were best to make that impression, even including assumed name as a possible attempt to make an impression on someone who was able to do espionage, but not to my mind necessarily a picture of someone who was doing espionage, though I left that open as a possibility, and thought I'd give it to the FBI and let them conclude or add it to what they knew.

I regret, and I would like to put this on the record, particularly two things in my own actions prior to the time of the assassination.

One, that I didn't make the connection between this phone number that I had of where he lived and that of course this would produce for the FBI agent who was asking the address of where he lived.

Mr. Jenner. I will get to that, Mrs. Paine.

Mrs. Paine. Well, that is regret 1.

Mr. Jenner. I don't want to cover too many subjects at the moment.

Mrs. Paine. But then of course you see in light of the events that followed it is a pity that I didn't go directly instead of waiting for the next visit, because the next visit was the 23d of November.

Mr. Jenner. Now I am going to get to that. What did you do with your copy of the letter?

Mrs. Paine. I put my copy of the letter away in an envelope in my desk. I then, Sunday evening, also took the original. I decided to do that Sunday evening.

Mr. Jenner. He had left?

Mrs. Paine. No, he had not left.

Mr. Jenner. He had not left?

Mrs. Paine. I asked the gentlemen present, it included Michael, to come in and help me move the furniture around. I walked in and saw the letter was still there and plunked it into my desk. We then moved all the furniture. I then took it out of the desk and placed it.

Mr. Jenner. When did you take it out of the desk?

Mrs. Paine. I don't think he knew that I took it. Oh, that evening or the next morning, I don't recall.

Mr. Jenner. And this was the 10th of November?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Did you ever have any conversation with him about that?

Mrs. Paine. No. I came close to it. I was disturbed about it. I didn't go to sleep right away. He was sitting up watching the late spy story, if you will, on the TV, and I got up and sat there on the sofa with him saying, "I can't speak," wanting to confront him with this and say, "What is this?" But on the other hand I was somewhat fearful, and I didn't know what to do.

Representative Ford. Fearful in what way?

Mrs. Paine. Well, if he was an agent, I would rather just give it to the FBI, not to say "Look, I am watching you" by saying "What is this I find on my desk."

Mr. Jenner. Were you fearful of any physical harm?

Mrs. Paine. No; I was not.

Representative Ford. That is what I was concerned about.

Mrs. Paine. No; I was not, though I don't think I defined my fears. I sat down and said I couldn't sleep and he said, "I guess you are real upset about going to the lawyer tomorrow."

He knew I had an appointment with my lawyer to discuss the possibility of a divorce the next day, and that didn't happen to be what was keeping me up that night, but I was indeed upset about the idea, and it was thoughtful for him to think of it. But I let it rest there, and we watched the story which he was interested in watching. And then I excused myself and went to bed.

Mr. Jenner. What did you do ultimately with your draft of the letter and the original?

Mrs. Paine. The first appearance of an FBI person on the 23d of November, I gave the original to them. The next day it probably was I said I also had a copy and gave them that. I wanted to be shut of it.

Mr. Jenner. So I take it, Mrs. Paine, you did not deliver either the original18 or the copy or call attention to the original or the copy with respect to the FBI.

Mrs. Paine. Prior.

Mr. Jenner. Prior to the 23d did you say?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. And what led you to hold onto this rather provocative document?

Mrs. Paine. It is a rather provocative document. It provoked my doubts about this fellow's normalcy more than it provoked thoughts that this was the talk of an agent reporting in. But I wasn't sure.

I of course made no—I didn't know him to be a violent person, had no thought that he had this trait, possibility in him, absolutely no connection with the President's coming. If I had, hindsight is so much better, I would certainly have called the FBI's attention to it. Supposing that I had?

Mr. Jenner. If the FBI had returned, Mrs. Paine, as you indicated during the course of your meeting with the FBI November 1, would you have disclosed this document to the FBI?

Mrs. Paine. Oh, I certainly think so. This was not something I was at all comfortable in having even.

Mr. Jenner. Were you expecting the FBI to return?

Mrs. Paine. I did expect them to come back. As I say, I had said that Lee was here on weekends and so forth. It might have been a good time to give them this document. But as far as I knew, and I know now certainly, they had not seen him and they were still interested in seeing him.

Representative Ford. How did you copy the note?

Mrs. Paine. Handwritten.

Representative Ford. Handwritten?

Mrs. Paine. I perhaps should put in here that Lee told me, and I only reconstructed this a few weeks ago, that he went, after I gave him—from the first visit of the FBI agent I took down the agent's name and the number that is in the telephone book to call the FBI, and I gave this to Lee the weekend he came.

Mr. Jenner. You gave it to Lee?

Mrs. Paine. I gave it to Lee.

Mr. Jenner. What weekend was that?

Mrs. Paine. I am told that came out on the 1st of November, so that would have been the weekend of the 2d, the next day.

Mr. Jenner. You have your calendar there. The 1st of November is what day of the week?

Mrs. Paine. It is a Friday. Then he told me, it must have been the following weekend, that same weekend of the 9th.

Mr. Jenner. Did he say anything when you gave him Agent Hosty's name on the telephone?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. Nothing at all?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall anything Lee said. I will go on as to the recollections that came later. He told me that he had stopped at the downtown office of the FBI and tried to see the agents and left a note. And my impression of it is that this notice irritated.

Mr. Jenner. Irritating?

Mrs. Paine. Irritated, that he left the note saying what he thought. This is reconstructing my impression of the fellows bothering him and his family, and this is my impression then. I couldn't say this was specifically said to him later.

Mr. Jenner. You mean he was irritated?

Mrs. Paine. He was irritated and he said, "They are trying to inhibit my activities," and I said, "You passed your pamphlets," and could well have gone on to say what I thought, but I don't believe I did go on to say, that he could and should expect the FBI to be interested in him.

He had gone to the Soviet Union, intended to become a citizen there, and come back. He had just better adjust himself to being of interest to them for years to come.

Mr. Jenner. What did he say to that?

19 Mrs. Paine. Now as I say, this I didn't go on to say. This was my feeling.

I didn't actually go on to say this. I did say, "Don't be inhibited, do what you think you should." But I was thinking in terms of passing pamphlets or expressing a belief in Fidel Castro, if that is why he had, I defend his right to express such a belief. I felt the FBI would too and that he had no reason to be irritated. But then that was my interpretation.

Mr. Jenner. Have you given all of what he said and what you said, however, on that occasion?

Mrs. Paine. Yes. I will just go on to say that I learned only a few weeks ago that he never did go into the FBI office. Of course knowing, thinking that he had gone in, I thought that was sensible on his part. But it appears to have been another lie.

Mr. Jenner. I will return to that FBI visit in a moment. I want to cover that as a separate subject.

Representative Ford is interested in another subject. I would like to return to the day or the period that your station wagon was being parked just before you took off. You have already testified to the fact, either earlier this afternoon or late this morning, that Lee Harvey Oswald appeared to be quite active in doing packing.

Mrs. Paine. Right.

Mr. Jenner. Of household wares or goods that were being taken back to Irving, Tex. Were you present when the station wagon was loaded with the various materials?

Mrs. Paine. Yes, I was present for most if not all of that.

Mr. Jenner. Who did that?

Mrs. Paine. He put the things in. I knew that we would spend one night on the road, that there were certain things we would have to get too, and I knew where these were, and he didn't, so that I talked about where these things should be placed, and helped with some of the binding, tying things to the boat on the car rack.

Mr. Jenner. The boat on top of the station wagon?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Now would you please tell us what there was in the way of luggage placed in the station wagon?

Mrs. Paine. There again the two large duffels which were heavier than I could move, he put those in.

Mr. Jenner. Describe their appearance, please.

Mrs. Paine. Again stuffed full, a rumply outside.

Mr. Jenner. With what?

Mrs. Paine. Rumply.

Mr. Jenner. Rumply? No appearance of any hard object pushing outwards?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. Against the sides or ends of the duffel bags?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. You saw nothing with respect to those duffel bags which might have led you to believe——

Mrs. Paine. A board in it, no.

Mr. Jenner. A tent pole, a long object, hard?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. Nothing at all?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. And how many pieces of luggage?

Mrs. Paine. Again these same suitcases, 2 or 3, I think 3 including quite a small one, and the little radio.

Mr. Jenner. What about the zipper bag?

Mrs. Paine. That was there. I think so. Oh no, it probably wasn't. I don't recall the zipper bag as being part of that.

Mr. Jenner. I wish you would reflect a little on this because it is important, Mrs. Paine, if you can remember it as accurately as possible.

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall the zipper bag among those things.

Mr. Jenner. Do you recall the zipper bag when you arrived in Irving?

20 Mrs. Paine. I think I saw him arrive with it himself, but I am not certain. No, wait, that may not be because I didn't see him when he first arrived.

Mr. Jenner. When you arrived in Irving, Mrs. Paine, not when he arrived.

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall that. I distinctly recall the duffels because it was all I could do to get them off of the car and set them on the grass until Michael could come and put them into the garage.

Mr. Jenner. Do you distinctly recall the hard-sided luggage you described yesterday?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. All of the pieces that you saw?

Mrs. Paine. Well, I don't recall that it was all. I couldn't even recall too well how many went down to New Orleans originally.

Mr. Jenner. Was there more than one?

Mrs. Paine. There was certainly more than one.

Mr. Jenner. Do you think there were more than two?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall specifically.

Mr. Jenner. Do you have a recollection as to whether there was a piece of luggage still apart from the zipper bag, still in the apartment at 4907 Magazine Street when you girls pulled out to go back to Irving?

Mrs. Paine. I have no specific recollection.

Mr. Jenner. Is it fair to say it is your best recollection at the moment that the zipper bag you have described earlier, you described yesterday, was not placed in the station wagon, and did not return with you to Irving?

Mrs. Paine. I do not recall it being in the station wagon.

Mr. Jenner. Now, was there a separate long package of any kind?

Mrs. Paine. I do not recall such a package.

Mr. Jenner. Was there a separate package of any character wrapped in a blanket?

Mrs. Paine. No. There was a basket such as you use for hanging your clothes. It carried exactly that, clothes and diapers, and they weren't as neat as being in suitcases and duffels would imply. There was leftovers stuffed in the corner, clothes and things, but rather open.

Mr. Jenner. So you saw no long rectangular package of any kind or character loaded in or placed in your station wagon?

Mrs. Paine. No, it doesn't mean it wasn't there, but I saw nothing of that nature.

Mr. Jenner. You saw nothing?

Mrs. Paine. I saw nothing.

Mr. Jenner. When you arrived in Irving, Tex., were you present when your station wagon was unpacked?

Mrs. Paine. Marina and I did that with the exception of the duffels.

Mr. Jenner. You did it all yourself and you took out of the station wagon everything in it other than the two duffel bags?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Now, in the process of removing everything other than the two duffel bags on the occasion on the 24th of September 1963 when you reached Irving, Tex., did you find or see any long rectangular package?

Mrs. Paine. I recall no such package.

Mr. Jenner. Did you see any kind of a package wrapped in the blanket?

Mrs. Paine. Not to my recollection.

Mr. Jenner. Did you see any package——

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall seeing the blanket either.

Mr. Jenner. On that occasion?

Mrs. Paine. On that occasion, not until later.

Mr. Jenner. Not until later.

Representative Ford. Did you see the blanket in New Orleans?

Mrs. Paine. On the bed or something. I am asking myself. I don't recall it specifically.

Mr. Jenner. Of course we all know the blanket to which we are referring, which I will ask you about in a moment. I might show it to you at the moment, or at least ask you if it is the blanket. I am exhibiting to the witness Commission Exhibit No. 140. Is this blanket familiar to you?

21 Mrs. Paine. Yes, it is.

Mr. Jenner. And give us the best recollection you have when you first saw it.

Mrs. Paine. My best recollection is that I saw it on the floor of my garage sometime in late October.

Mr. Jenner. 1963?

Mrs. Paine. Right.

Mr. Jenner. Do you have a recollection of ever having seen it before that time?

Mrs. Paine. No. I might say also now that I know certainly I have never seen this binding until last night.

Mr. Jenner. When you say "this binding," you are pointing to what appears to be some black binding?

Mrs. Paine. Some hemstitching, it is sewn.

Mr. Jenner. On the edge of the blanket.

Mrs. Paine. Yes. This binding was not apparent, did not show.

Mr. Jenner. You never noticed the binding before, if the binding had always been on it, is that what you mean to say?

Mrs. Paine. When I saw the blanket the binding was not showing.

Representative Ford. How carefully did you analyze the blanket on the previous occasions?

Mrs. Paine. I stepped over it. I didn't pick it up or look at it closely.

Representative Ford. Didn't turn it over?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Representative Ford. Didn't move it?

Mrs. Paine. No, I didn't.

Representative Ford. So you only saw one surface more or less?

Mrs. Paine. Yes, only one surface, except I saw that it had been moved.

Representative Ford. But you didn't move it yourself?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. In what shape, that is form, was the blanket when you first saw it? And I take it you first saw it in your garage.

Mrs. Paine. That is my recollection.

Mr. Jenner. And it was subsequent to the time that you and Marina had returned to Irving?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And you are certain that you did not see the blanket in your station wagon when you arrived in Irving?

Mrs. Paine. I do not recall seeing the blanket in my station wagon.

Mr. Jenner. And you didn't see it in their apartment at 4907 Magazine Street when you were there?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall seeing it there.

Mr. Jenner. Either in the spring or in the fall, is that true?

Mrs. Paine. That is true.

Mr. Jenner. Now tell us—I take it from your testimony that the blanket, when you first saw it in a garage, was in a configuration in the form of a package?

Mrs. Paine. It was a long rectangle shape with the ends tucked in.

Mr. Jenner. Would you be good enough to re-form that blanket so that it is in the shape and the dimension when you first saw it?

Mrs. Paine. About like so.

Mr. Jenner. For the record if you please, Mr. Chairman, the length of the form is just exactly 45 inches, and it is across exactly 12 inches.

Representative Ford. That is across lying flat.

Mr. Jenner. Across lying flat, thank you.

Now, what else about the form of the blanket did you notice on the occasion when you first saw it on your garage floor? Anything else?

Mrs. Paine. I recall from either that occasion or another that there were parallel strings around it.

Mr. Jenner. Tied?

Mrs. Paine. Into a bundle, yes, 3 or 4.

Mr. Jenner. How many were there?

Mrs. Paine. 3 or 4, I don't recall.

Mr. Jenner. 3 or 4?

22 Mrs. Paine. Yes. I suppose it would be four. It would be very well spaced if it was only three, and I think they were closer than that.

Mr. Jenner. Your best recollection now.

Mrs. Paine. Is four.

Mr. Jenner. Rather than rationalization.

Mrs. Paine. Yes, there were four.

Mr. Jenner. There were four string ties across the 12-inch side of the blanket. Were those string ties pulled so they seemed to hold something inside the blanket?

Mrs. Paine. They didn't seem particularly tight, but then I don't have a strong recollection of them prior to the 22d.

Mr. Jenner. Did you ever pick up that package?

Mrs. Paine. No, I never did.

Mr. Jenner. That was wrapped in the blanket. Did you ever have any discussion with Marina Oswald about the package in your garage?

Mrs. Paine. Not until the afternoon of the 22d.

Mr. Jenner. Did you see anybody move it about your garage at any time?

Mrs. Paine. No, I did not see anyone move it.

Mr. Jenner. And how long after you returned to Texas did you notice that package in your garage?

Mrs. Paine. I said I thought it was late October perhaps. I wouldn't be at all certain about when I first noticed it.

Mr. Jenner. And did you notice from time to time that it was in a different position or places in your garage?

Mrs. Paine. I recall two places I saw it.

Mr. Jenner. And the first was where?

Mrs. Paine. Over near—the radial saw, what do you call it, buzz saw?

Mr. Jenner. Bandsaw.

Mrs. Paine. No, buzz saw.

Mr. Jenner. Oh yes, a disc type, a buzz saw, near the buzz saw. Then on the second occasion when you saw it, where was it?

Mrs. Paine. Over near the work bench in front of part of the work bench, one end extending toward the bandsaw.

Mr. Jenner. And on both of those occasions was the package lying flat on the floor or was it upended?

Mrs. Paine. Flat on the floor.

Mr. Jenner. And you never had any curiosity with respect to it to lead you to step on it or feel it in any respect?

Mrs. Paine. No, I didn't.

Mr. Jenner. Did you have a lot of debris or articles in the garage?

Mrs. Paine. Indeed, and do yet. Our things and most of the Oswald things were stored there. I have mentioned several pieces of machine tools.

Mr. Jenner. We identified the garage picture at the tail end of yesterday, and I think the Chairman is seeking it.

Mr. McCloy. I am trying to find it now.

Mrs. Paine. That of course was taken more recently, but it is reasonably typical of its condition at that time too.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. Jenner. This is a photograph numbered eight, entitled garage interior, which I have marked with Commission number 429, and I now exhibit that to Mrs. Paine.

Are you familiar with what is depicted in that photograph?

Mrs. Paine. Very.

Mr. Jenner. Do you know when that photograph was taken?

Mrs. Paine. It was taken about 2 weeks ago.

Mr. Jenner. Were you present?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And does it accurately depict everything that was there and in its relative position at the time the picture was taken?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And it is your garage?

Mrs. Paine. It is.

23 Mr. Jenner. Would you locate on that, and I would like to have you place an X at the point in that picture that you first saw the package?

Mrs. Paine. Underneath that box.

Mr. Jenner. All right. You have written an arrow or X next to "on floor" and it is underneath the box that is on the floor.

Mrs. Paine. It was in front as I recall it; this was the buzz saw I was talking about, right here.

Mr. Jenner. Right here the witness is pointing to the right hand upper middle section of the photograph.

Mr. Dulles. Is this the first location of the package?

Mrs. Paine. It was over on that side of the garage, towards the door or——

Mr. Dulles. The first location of it?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Toward what door, Mrs. Paine?

Mrs. Paine. Toward the front of the garage.

Mr. Jenner. Where did you see it on the second occasion?

Mrs. Paine. Part of it in front of this work bench, one right under this box here.

Mr. Jenner. Put a double X here, between this workbench and this bandsaw.

Mrs. Paine. On the floor.

Mr. Jenner. The workbench and the bandsaw to which the witness is pointing are on the left hand side of the photograph, the bandsaw being about the upper middle. Is that correct?

Mrs. Paine. Yes. The package was farther to the interior from the bench.

Mr. Jenner. It was toward the back rather than toward the door?

Mrs. Paine. It was the other side of the bandsaw so it was farther to the interior than its first location.

Mr. Jenner. I offer in evidence as Commission Exhibit No. 429 the document which the witness has identified which in turn was identified as Commission Exhibit 429.

Mr. McCloy. It will be admitted.

(The photograph referred to, previously identified as Commission Exhibit No. 429, was received in evidence.)

Mr. Jenner. For the record, I am placing the rifle in the folded blanket as Mrs. Paine folded it. This is being done without the rifle being dismantled.

May the record show, Mr. Chairman, that the rifle fits well in the package from end to end, and it does not——

Mrs. Paine. Can you make it flatter?

Mr. Jenner. No; because the rifle is now in there.

Mrs. Paine. I just mean that——

Mr. Jenner. Was that about the appearance of the blanket wrapped package that you saw on your garage floor?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; although I recall it as quite flat.

Mr. Jenner. Flatter than it now appears to be?

Mrs. Paine. Yes. But it is not a clear recollection.

Mr. Jenner. You have a firm recollection that the package you saw was of the length?

Mrs. Paine. Yes, definitely.

Mr. Jenner. That is 45 inches, approximately. You had no occasion when you stepped on the package——

Mrs. Paine. I stepped over it.

Mr. Jenner. You always stepped over it?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; until the afternoon of the 22d.

Mr. Jenner. By accident or otherwise, did you happen to come in contact with it?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. You don't know whether there was anything solid or hard in it?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Dulles. Did it look about the way this package looks?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. McCloy. Except for the fact it had some cord around it?

24 Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Representative Ford. When it had some cord around it, did the way it was tied pull it in or distort the shape?

Mrs. Paine. No; it didn't distort the shape.

Representative Ford. About the same shape even with the cord?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Dulles. The cords weren't pulled tight?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. They were relatively loosely tied?

Mrs. Paine. I recall this definite shape.

Mr. Jenner. To hold the blanket in that form rather than to hold the contents of the package firm, is that your impression?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. McCloy. Are you going to ask about the husband's testimony in connection with the moving of the package?

Mr. Jenner. I did not intend to.

Mr. McCloy. I was not present but your husband testified he had moved the blanket from time to time but had not opened it. Did he ever refer to it? Did he ever speak to you about having had to move it while he was——

Mrs. Paine. Not until after the assassination.

Mr. McCloy. Not until after the assassination but before the assassination he had not complained about its being there or any difficulty in moving it?

Mrs. Paine. No; he did not mention it, and I was not present when he moved it.

Representative Ford. Was he the person who used these various woodworking pieces of equipment?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Representative Ford. Did he work in the garage?

Mrs. Paine. Well, he had—he made the workbench, and he had worked in the garage when he lived at the home and it has since been somewhat filled up.

Representative Ford. But during the time that you and Marina came back he didn't work in the garage?

Mrs. Paine. He did still cut occasionally something on the saws. Indeed, I did, too. I like to make children's blocks. I am trying to think when I last, if it is pertinent, when I used the saw.

Mr. McCloy. Did you use the saw while the blanket was on floor?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; I believe so.

Mr. McCloy. You had to step over the blanket to do that?

Mrs. Paine. Or around it.

Mr. McCloy. Or around it. But in the course of your use of the saw you never had the necessity or the occasion to readjust the blanket or move it in any way?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Dulles. Did we get the three locations here? I only see two.

Mr. Jenner. There were only two?

Mrs. Paine. Two that I recall.

Mr. Dulles. Only two.

Representative Ford. She made a mistake in the first drawing of the second one.

Mrs. Paine. I touched it by mistake.

Representative Ford. I think that ought to be clarified on the record.

Mr. Jenner. On the right-hand side of Commission Exhibit 429 there is an X or an arrow above which is written the words "on floor". That is the first location point at which you saw the package?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. On the left-hand side, the lower half of the photograph there is a double X.

Mrs. Paine. Which I could not put in enough to give the proportion.

Mr. Jenner. You mean in the photograph?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Is that where you saw the package for the second time?

25 Mrs. Paine. Yes; as I have described it. The position I have described is more accurate than the XX.

Mr. Jenner. There is a red strip above the table with the tablecloth on it.

Mrs. Paine. That is an accident with my hand.

Mr. Jenner. That was an accident on your part?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. So there are only two locations?

Mrs. Paine. Right.

Mr. Jenner. Now, Mr. Chairman, may I reinsert the rifle in the package, on the opposite side from what it was before, and have the witness look at it?

Mr. McCloy. You may.

We are back on the record.

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mr. Chairman, I have now placed the opposite side of the rifle to the floor, and may the record show that the package is much flatter. The rifle when inserted firstly was turned on the side of the bolt which operates the rifle which forced it up higher.

Now does the package look more familiar to you, Mrs. Paine?

Mrs. Paine. I recall it as being more like this, not as lumpy as the other had been.

Mr. Jenner. More in the form it is now?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Now directing your attention to the rifle itself, which is Commission Exhibit 139, when did you first see that rifle, if you have ever seen it?

Mrs. Paine. I saw a rifle I judge to have been the same one at the police station on the afternoon of November 22, I don't recall the strap.

Mr. Jenner. You don't recall at the time you saw it on the 22d of November in the police station that it had a strap?

Mrs. Paine. It may well have had one but I don't specifically recall it. I was interested in the sight.

Mr. Jenner. Had you ever seen this rifle prior to the afternoon of November 22?

Mrs. Paine. No.

(At this point, Senator Cooper entered the hearing room.)

Mr. Jenner. Now, we do have some particular interest, Mrs. Paine, in the rifle strap. Had you ever had around your house a luggage strap or a guitar strap similar to the strap that appears on Commission Exhibit 139?

Mrs. Paine. No; in fact, I don't recall ever seeing a strap of that nature.

Mr. Jenner. Whether in your home or anywhere else?

Mrs. Paine. Precisely.

Mr. Jenner. And you are unable to identify or suggest its source?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. What do you have in your home, Mrs. Paine, by way of heavy wrapping paper?

Mrs. Paine. I have the sort of paper you buy at the dime store to wrap packages, about 36 inches long, coming in a roll.

Mr. Jenner. Exhibiting to you Commission Exhibit No. 364, is the wrapping paper that you have in your home as heavy as that?

Mrs. Paine. I don't believe it is quite that heavy and it certainly isn't quite that long. Well, it could have been cut the otherway, couldn't it, possibly?

Mr. Jenner. What about its shade, color?

Mrs. Paine. It would be similar to that.

Mr. Jenner. Similar in shade.

Do you have the broad banded sticky tape or sticky tape of this nature?

Mrs. Paine. There is no tape this wide in my home nor to my recollection has there ever been.

Mr. Jenner. You have whole rolls of this tape, of the paper in your home?

Mrs. Paine. A whole roll.

Mr. Jenner. A whole roll?

Mrs. Paine. Which I use for wrapping packages, mailing.

Mr. Jenner. Do you have string in your home that you use in attaching to this wrapping?

26 Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Did you by any chance know the weight of the string that wrapped the blanket package as against the strength or weight of the string that you normally used in your home for packages?

Mrs. Paine. It was similar in weight, rather thin.

Representative Ford. Color was the same?

Mrs. Paine. I think it was a whitish color on the blanket and one of the rolls I have is that.

Representative Ford. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Would you say it was a relatively light package string?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Not a rope type?

Mrs. Paine. Oh, no.

Mr. Jenner. And the string you saw on the blanket package was of the lighter weight type and not——

Mrs. Paine. And of the lighter color too, I think.

Mr. Jenner. And the lighter color.

Now, you and Marina arrived home on the 24th of September, with the packages and contents of the station wagon, and, save the duffel bags, they were moved into your home, and everybody settled down?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. When next was there—did you hear from Lee Harvey Oswald at any time thereafter?

Mrs. Paine. Not until the afternoon of the 4th, which I have already referred to.

Mr. Jenner. No word whatsoever from him from the 24th of September?

Mrs. Paine. 23d we left him in New Orleans.

Mr. Jenner. 23d of September, until the 4th of October?

Mrs. Paine. That is correct; no word.

Mr. Jenner. By letter, telephone?

Mrs. Paine. Or pigeon.

Mr. Jenner. Or otherwise, anything whatsoever?

Mrs. Paine. No word.

Mr. Jenner. Did you and Marina have discussions in that 10-day period about where Lee was or might be?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. None whatsoever? Did you have any discussion about the fact that you hadn't heard from Lee Harvey Oswald in 14 days or 10 days?

Mrs. Paine. No; we didn't.

Mr. Jenner. No discussion on that at all. What did you and Marina discuss during that 10-day period?

Mrs. Paine. I can't recall which was during that period or which was after; general conversation.

Mr. Jenner. Was it generally small talk, ladies talk about the house?

Mrs. Paine. It was generally what my vocabulary permitted and then she would reminisce, her vocabulary being much larger, about her life in Russia, about the movies she had seen. We talked about the children and their health. We talked about washing, about cooking.

Mr. Jenner. Did you have ladies visit. Did ladies in the neighborhood come and visit?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Did you go to neighbors homes?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. With Marina?

Mrs. Paine. Again, I can't recall which was before October 4th and which was after, but there was the normal flow nonetheless——

Mr. Jenner. And interested people?

Mrs. Paine. Of my visiting at other people's homes and particularly Mrs. Roberts or Mrs. Craig.

Mr. Jenner. Mrs. Roberts was your next door neighbor and Mrs. Craig was how many doors down or across the street?

27 Mrs. Paine. She is, you have to drive. You have to drive to her home. She is the young German woman to whom I referred.

Mr. Jenner. Yes. Was there any discussion during this 10-day period of Marina's relations with her husband, Lee?

Mrs. Paine. Not that I recall.

Mr. Jenner. She expressed no concern during this 10-day period, that no word had been heard from Lee?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. Did she evidence any—did she do or say anything during that period to indicate she did not expect to hear from him during that 10 days period?

Mrs. Paine. No; she did not.

Mr. Jenner. There was nothing?

Mrs. Paine. There was nothing.

Mr. Jenner. Did it come to your mind that it was curious you hadn't heard from Lee Harvey Oswald for 10 whole days?

Mrs. Paine. No; it didn't seem curious. I know he had spent at least 2 weeks looking for work on previous occasions in different cities and I thought he wanted to find something before he communicated.

Mr. Jenner. But in view of the affection that had been evidenced on the day of departure on the 23d, you were not bothered by the fact that not even a telephone call had been received in 10 days?

Mrs. Paine. If he was not in town I wouldn't have at all expected a telephone call because that would have cost him dearly.

Mr. Jenner. He might have made it collect.

Mrs. Paine. I didn't expect that either.

Mr. Jenner. But there was no telephone call, there was no postcard, there was no letter?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. There was nothing?

Mrs. Paine. There could well have been a letter but there was none.

Mr. Dulles. Where did you think he was at this time?

Mrs. Paine. Houston.

Mr. Dulles. Houston, looking for a job? Houston?

Mrs. Paine. Houston, possibly.

Mr. Jenner. Because of the conversation on the morning of the 23d, because of the possibility of his going to Houston or Philadelphia, your frame of mind was that he was either in Houston or Philadelphia?

Mrs. Paine. I thought he probably was in Houston. The Philadelphia reference was very slight.

Mr. Jenner. Was there any reference or discussion between you and Marina during that period of the possibility that he was off in Houston looking for work?

Mrs. Paine. No, there was not.

Mr. Jenner. You are sure there was just no discussion of the subject at all during that whole 10 days period with Marina?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall any discussion of it.

Mr. Jenner. She expressed no concern and you none?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. That nobody had heard from Lee.

All right.

You heard from him on the 4th of October?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Would you give the Commission the circumstances, the time of day and how it came about?

Mrs. Paine. He telephoned in early afternoon, something after lunchtime.

Mr. Jenner. The phone rang. Did you answer it?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And did you recognize the voice?

Mrs. Paine. He asked to speak to Marina.

Mr. Jenner. Whose voice was it?

Mrs. Paine. Well, after he asked to speak to Marina, I was certain it was Lee's.

Mr. Jenner. What did you say?

28 Mrs. Paine. I said "here" and gave her the phone.

Mr. Jenner. You didn't say "where are you", or "I am glad to hear from you, where have you been?"

Mrs. Paine. No. I thought that was her's to ask. He wished to speak to her and I gave her the phone and, of course, that is what was then asked. I heard her say to him——

Mr. Jenner. You heard her side of the conversation, did you?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. All right.

What did you hear her say?

Mrs. Paine. I heard her say, "No, Mrs. Paine, she can't come and pick you up."

Mr. Jenner. Was she speaking in Russian?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Throughout?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. When Lee asked for Marina, did he speak in English or Russian?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall. And Marina went on to say that Mrs. Paine, "Ruth has just been to Parkland Hospital this morning to donate blood, she shouldn't be going driving now to pick you up."

Mr. Jenner. Did she refer to you as Mrs. Paine or Ruth?

Mrs. Paine. No; I am trying to make it clear who is being talked about.

Mr. Jenner. I see. You might give your testimony the wrong cast.

Mrs. Paine. No; of course. She referred to me as "Ruth" or "she".

To Junie, she called me Aunt Ruth. To Junie, speaking of me to her little girl, she referred to me as Aunt Ruth.

Mr. Jenner. You are giving the conversation now, the end of it that you heard?

Mrs. Paine. Yes. Then I heard Marina say "Why didn't you call?"

Mr. Jenner. You did hear her say that?

Mrs. Paine. I believe so. I certainly remember her saying it afterward. She hung up and she explained the conversation to me.

Mr. Jenner. What did she say to you?

Mrs. Paine. That he had asked for me to come in to downtown Dallas to pick him up and she said no; he should find his own way.

Mr. Jenner. To come to downtown Dallas?

Mrs. Paine. To come to downtown Dallas to pick him up, and she never asked me whether I wanted to or would have, told him, no; it was an imposition, that I had just given blood at Parkland Hospital.

Mr. Jenner. And you had in fact given blood?

Mrs. Paine. Oh, yes; indeed.

Mr. Jenner. That morning?

Mrs. Paine. Yes. I have a card or the FBI does to that effect. Then she said that he had said that he was at the Y, staying at the Y, and had been in town a couple of days, to which she said, "Why didn't you call right away?", in other words, "why didn't you call right away upon getting to town?"

Then he also asked whether he could come out; this was, of course, during the conversation, and she referred the question to me, could he come out for the weekend, and I said, yes, he could.

Mr. Jenner. This was while she was still talking on the telephone?

Mrs. Paine. Yes. Prior to his asking for a ride.

So then they hung up and I went grocery shopping, and when——

Mr. Jenner. You left the home?

Mrs. Paine. I left the home.

Mr. Jenner. You have now exhausted your recollection as to everything that was said to you by Marina after she hung up and was relating to you, at least a summary of the conversation with her husband?

Mrs. Paine. I believe it was also said that he wanted to look for work in Dallas. He was here, staying at the Y. Could he come out for the weekend. He planned to look for work in Dallas.

Mr. Jenner. I see.

Did you say anything about—were you stimulated to say anything to Marina29 about any of the subject matters of that conversation as she reported it to you?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. You expressed no response, made no response to her having made a statement to her husband that—of her surprise as to why he hadn't called and if he were just over in Dallas and staying at the Y?

Mrs. Paine. I thought that but I didn't try to put it in Russian.

Mr. Jenner. There was no discussion is all I am getting at.

What did she say as to his coming out by whatever means he could get there? Was there any discussion of that?

Mrs. Paine. It implied whatever means, that he shouldn't ask me to——

Mr. Jenner. He was coming?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. But that you were not going to go to get him?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And you left and went to the grocery store or market?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. When you returned, was Lee at your home?

Mrs. Paine. He was already there, which surprised me greatly.

Mr. Jenner. Why did it surprise you?

Mrs. Paine. Because I thought he would have to take a public bus to Irving, they run very rarely if at all during the afternoon, and I thought he would have considerable difficulty getting out. I thought it would be at least supper time before he got there.

Mr. Jenner. How much time elapsed between the time you left and the time you returned?

Mrs. Paine. Shopping? Oh, I don't know, perhaps an hour, perhaps a little less.

Representative Ford. Where did you go shopping?

Mrs. Paine. The grocery store in the same parking lot where we practiced.

Mr. Jenner. That was three blocks away?

Mrs. Paine. It is a little more than that. These would be long blocks.

Mr. Jenner. Did any conversation ensue as to how he had, by what means he had come from Dallas to Irving?

Mrs. Paine. Yes. He then said that he had hitchhiked out, caught a ride with someone who brought him straight to the door, a Negro man.

Mr. Jenner. To your door?

Mrs. Paine. Yes. To whom he said that he had been away from his wife and child and he was just now getting home, and the man kindly brought him directly to the door.

Mr. Jenner. Where did this conversation take place?

Mrs. Paine. In the home that afternoon.

Mr. Jenner. When you returned to your home, that was in the afternoon, wasn't it?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Where was Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall.

Mr. Jenner. Was he inside the home or outside?

Mrs. Paine. Inside, I believe.

Mr. Jenner. Did any conversation ensue as to where he had been in that 10-day interim?

Mrs. Paine. Where he had been?

Mr. Jenner. Where he had been in the intervening 10 days?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; he said to me that he had been in Houston and that he hadn't been able to find work there and was now going to try in Dallas.

Mr. Jenner. Did he say anything about Philadelphia?

Mrs. Paine. Nothing.

Mr. Jenner. From your testimony I gather he did not say anything about Mexico?

Mrs. Paine. No; he did not.

Mr. Jenner. Was Marina present when he stated to you that he had been in Houston looking for work?

30 Mrs. Paine. That is my recollection of it; yes.

Mr. Jenner. You never had any conversation with her up to the 23d or 22d of November on the subject of whether Lee had or had not been in Mexico?

Mrs. Paine. We never had such a conversation.

Mr. Jenner. Despite your having read that letter on the 10th of November in which he stated that he had been?

Mrs. Paine. Yes. Now there was no occasion in that letter that she may have known that he went any more than there was certain indication to my mind that this was true and not false. Had I looked at the peso, this would have been the only occasion that she knew.

Mr. Jenner. But the fact is, apart from your rationalization now there was no conversation on that subject?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. How long did he remain in your home?

Mrs. Paine. Monday morning——

The Chairman. Before you get to that, I want to ask a question about giving the blood that day. Did you give it for a particular person or for a blood bank?

Mrs. Paine. It was for Marina. For each of the persons who come in under county care they ask you to donate two pints of blood, one at a time.

The Chairman. I see. And you donated one pint for her?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

The Chairman. Thank you.

Mr. Jenner. How long did he remain in your home on this visit?

Mrs. Paine. Until Monday morning, the 7th of October, almost noon, in fact, when I took him to an Intercity bus at the Irving bus station.

Mr. Jenner. This is that bus terminal approximately 3 miles from your home?

Mrs. Paine. That same day I gave him a map to assist him in job hunting.

Mr. Jenner. All right. I would like to get to that.

I show you what is in evidence, I don't know whether it is received or not; it is a Commission Exhibit No. 128, and ask you if you have ever seen that before?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; I have.

Mr. Jenner. Is that the map to which you now have reference?

Mrs. Paine. I would say it is.

Mr. Jenner. What did you do with the map with respect to Lee Harvey Oswald on this occasion?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall who asked, who mentioned a map first, but, of course, I knew, and he did, that it would be a useful thing to have job hunting. I think he asked if I had a map of the city of Dallas and I said, yes, I did, and I can easily get another at the gas station, one of these.

Mr. Jenner. Mrs. Paine, it is your clear recollection that this document, Commission Exhibit No. 128, a map, is the map that you gave Lee Harvey Oswald, this was October 7th?

Mrs. Paine. It was certainly this kind of map, whether it is the identical map, I couldn't say for sure, but I much prefer the ENCO map of the city and this is the kind I always get to use. So this is the kind I had in mind.

Mr. Jenner. So, to the best of your recollection, the coloring has been changed a little bit because of attempts to draw fingerprints from it?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. But your best recollection now, observing it, is that this is the document?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Would you examine it carefully and see that there might be something on it that would arrest your attention as your having placed thereon or Lee?

Mrs. Paine. I have examined this carefully and a copy of it.

Mr. Jenner. On other occasions?

Mrs. Paine. On other occasions, and I could not at any time find a marking that I had made.

Mr. Jenner. Do you recall having made any markings?

Mrs. Paine. I do not recall having made any markings on this particular map. Sometime on some maps I knew I had made remarks where I was going.

31 Mr. Jenner. Just for the purpose of the record, may I reverse it, and you see no markings on the reverse side, I take it?

Mrs. Paine. No; which is Fort Worth, not Dallas, isn't it?

Mr. Jenner. Yes; it is.

All right, now tell us about that incident?

Mrs. Paine. The map?

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mrs. Paine. I have.

Mr. Jenner. That is all there was to it?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Did you suggest, was there any discussion of, particular places of employment?

Mrs. Paine. There was no such discussion.

Mr. Jenner. As to which he might inquire?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. What did he—did you hand him the map?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And was it opened before you and Lee in your discussions?

Mrs. Paine. No, no; we didn't discuss. He said, do I have a map, and I said, yes, I do, you may have it.

Mr. Jenner. You handed it to him, and that was all that occurred?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And did he place it in his pocket or did he go into his room or his and Marina's room and place it there?

Mrs. Paine. He may have already been on his way to the bus station when this conversation occurred and took it with him.

Mr. Jenner. All right.

I notice what appears to be a notation that the document has not as yet been offered in evidence, Mr. Chairman, and I offer in evidence, therefore, as Commission Exhibit No. 128, the document heretofore identified by that exhibit number.

Mr. McCloy. It may be admitted.

(The document referred to, heretofore marked as Commission Exhibit No. 128 for identification, was received in evidence.)

Mr. Jenner. Was Marina present during this discussion of his job hunting?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall. I seem to think we were on our way out already to go in our car to the bus station.

Mr. Jenner. Did Marina accompany you?

Mrs. Paine. No; she did not.

Mr. Jenner. She did not?

Mrs. Paine. She stayed home with the baby. My children probably went with me, I don't recall specifically.

Mr. Jenner. That is the baby, you mean June?

Mrs. Paine. June.

Mr. Jenner. You drove into the bus terminal approximately 3 miles from your home. Did you remain until the bus came along?

Mrs. Paine. I think so.

Mr. Jenner. You saw him depart?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Was anything said about where he would reside in Dallas before he left?

Mrs. Paine. I am not certain, but I think he said the Y was rather expensive. He was going to look for a room.

Mr. McCloy. What was the date you took him into the bus station?

Mrs. Paine. That is the 7th of October.

Mr. McCloy. The 7th of October?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Was there an occasion in this early period that you drove him all the way into Dallas?

Mrs. Paine. I can't recall ever driving him all the way into Dallas.

Mr. Jenner. At any time?

32 Mrs. Paine. We drove, except to the Oak Cliff Station for this driver training test.

Mr. Jenner. That is the only occasion?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; that is the only one I recall. Can you refresh my memory. I can't think of any other.

Mr. Jenner. You are clear that you drove him from your home to the bus terminal in Irving?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And either you left immediately or waited to see him board the bus, but it is your definite recollection you did not drive him to the Dallas downtown area on that occasion?

Mrs. Paine. Oh, I did once drive him to the Dallas downtown area, because I recall where he got out. Now why I was going—yes, I think I may know why I was going.

Mr. Jenner. Fix the time first.

Mrs. Paine. I do recall now driving him into downtown Dallas because I was already going and it was probably Monday, the 14th of October.

Mr. Jenner. This is the day before his employment began with the Texas School Book Depository?

Mrs. Paine. It would have been 2 days before, the day before he applied. I have several recollections but which day they attach to is not quite as clear.

I recall taking him to the bus. I recall picking him up at the bus. I recall going in and dropping him off at a corner of Ross Avenue and something else, which was near the employment office.

Mr. Jenner. In downtown Dallas?

Mrs. Paine. Near the employment office station. I was on my way to get a key fixed on my Russian typewriter which is what was taking me downtown. I hadn't been thinking—I at no time made a purposeful trip just to take him to downtown Dallas, but I was going and he went along and I am pretty sure that was a Monday and he got out at that corner and Marina was with me and we went on to get this typewriter fixed either to pick it up or to leave it. I am quite certain it was the 12th, Saturday, that I picked him up at the station.

Mr. Jenner. At the bus terminal?

Mrs. Paine. Yes. And I am pretty certain that it was the 7th I took him to the bus station. I recall it being already noon, and I thought he might well have started looking for a job earlier that day.

Mr. Jenner. When next did you hear from Mr. Oswald?

Mrs. Paine. After the 7th. Probably on the 12th when he called again to ask if he could come out for the weekend.

Mr. Jenner. The 12th is what day of the week?

Mrs. Paine. The 12th is a Saturday.

Mr. Jenner. Do you recall that he did call?

Mrs. Paine. Pardon?

Mr. Jenner. Did you recall that he did telephone and ask permission to come?

Mrs. Paine. Oh, indeed he did.

Mr. Jenner. Did he always do that?

Mrs. Paine. He always did that with the exception of the 21st of November.

Mr. Jenner. We will get to that in a very few moments.

Mr. McCloy. Before you get to that you said you went all the way into Dallas with this errand, that Marina was with you.

Mrs. Paine. That is my recollection.

Mr. McCloy. What did you do with the children?

Mrs. Paine. We always take them.

Mr. McCloy. Took them all, put them all in the station wagon?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; big station wagon.

Mr. Jenner. By the way, I would like to go back a little. When you picked him up at the bus station on the afternoon of the 4th of October, what did he have——

Mrs. Paine. On the afternoon of the 12th, around noon of the 12th.

Mr. Jenner. Please, when he first returned to Irving after——

Mrs. Paine. He hitchhiked out.

33 Mr. Jenner. On the occasion that he told you he had been in Houston looking for a job?

Mrs. Paine. The 4th, he hitchhiked out.

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

It is that occasion that I have in mind.

What did he have with him in the way of luggage?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall certainly. It does seem to me that I remember he took the zipper bag on Monday, the following Monday, with him to town, along with some clothes over his arm, ironed shirts, things that are hung on hangers.

Mr. Jenner. With respect to that trip——

Mrs. Paine. You must remember I was shopping when he arrived on the afternoon of the 4th.

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mrs. Paine. So I didn't see him when he arrived that moment.

Mr. Jenner. But you do have a recollection of having seen the zipper bag on Monday?

Mrs. Paine. The 7th.

Mr. Jenner. When you took him to the bus terminal for the purpose of his returning to downtown Dallas?

Mrs. Paine. To find a room and live there and have sufficient clothing there.

That is my best recollection.

Mr. Jenner. Is that the first time you had seen the zipper bag?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. From the time you had left New Orleans on the 23d?

Mrs. Paine. So far as I recall.

Mr. Jenner. Did you notice anything else in the way of pieces of luggage in your home after you came back from the shopping center that afternoon of October 4th that hadn't been there prior to his arrival?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. The only piece of luggage of which you have any recollection then is the zipper bag which you saw him take with him when he left on Monday morning, the 7th?

Mrs. Paine. And that is, I would not say a certain recollection. But that is the best I have.

Mr. Jenner. It is your best recollection anyhow?

Mrs Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Now, when you returned to your home did you have any discussion with Marina about Lee's departure and his future plans and her understanding of them?

Mrs. Paine. No; nothing I recall specifically.

Mr. Jenner. None at all.

What discussion went on between you and Marina, that is the subject matter with respect to his weekend visits?

Mrs. Paine. She wanted to be certain it was all right for him to come out, you know that it wasn't too much of an imposition on me. We got into discussing his efforts to find a job. Then Monday, the 14th as best as I recall, was the first time we talked about him, more than to say it was too bad he didn't find something. This is the——

Mr. Jenner. During the course of the week was there discussion between you and Marina respecting Lee Oswald's attempt at employment?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. Now, there came an occasion, did there not, that weekend or the following weekend at which there was a discussion at least by you with some neighbors with respect to efforts to obtain employment for Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mrs. Paine. As best I can reconstruct it this was, while having coffee at my immediate neighbors, Mrs. Ed Roberts, and also present was Mrs. Bill Randle, and Lee had said over the weekend that he had gotten the last of the unemployment compensation checks that were due him, and that it had been smaller than the others had been, and disappointing in its smallness and he looked very discouraged when he went to look for work.

Mr. Jenner. Did he say anything about amount?

34 Mrs. Paine. I didn't hear the question.

Mr. Jenner. Did he say anything about amount?

Mrs. Paine. No; he didn't, just less.

Mr. Jenner. All right.

Mrs. Paine. And the subject of his looking for work and that he hadn't found work for a week, came up while we were having coffee, the four young mothers at Mrs. Roberts' house, and Mrs. Randle mentioned that her younger brother, Wesley Frazier thought they needed another person at the Texas School Book Depository where Wesley worked.

Marina then asked me, after we had gone home, asked me if I would call——

Mr. Jenner. Was Marina present during this discussion?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; Marina was present, yes, indeed.

Mr. Jenner. Did she understand the conversation?

Mrs. Paine. It was a running translation, running, faulty translation going on.

Mr. Jenner. You were translating for her?

Mrs. Paine. I was acting as her translator. And then after we came home she asked me if I would call the School Book Depository to see if indeed there was the possibility of an opening, and at her request, I did telephone——

Mr. Jenner. Excuse me, please.

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. While you were still in the Roberts' home was there any discussion at all of the subject mentioned by you or by Mrs. Randle or Mrs. Roberts or anyone else, of calls to be made, or that might be made, to the Texas School Book Depository in this connection?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall this discussion. As I recall it was a suggestion made by Marina to me after we got home, but I may be wrong.

Mr. Jenner. But that is your best recollection that you are now testifying to?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Is that correct?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. You reached home and Marina suggested that "Would you please call the Texas School Depository?"

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. What did you do?

Mrs. Paine. I looked up the number in the book, and dialed it, was told I would need to speak to Mr. Truly, who was at the warehouse. The phone was taken to Mr. Truly, and I talked with him and said——

Mr. Jenner. You mean the call was transferred by the operator?

Mrs. Paine. To Mr. Truly, and I said I know of a young man whose wife was staying in my house, the wife was expecting a child, they already had a little girl and he had been out of work for a while and was very interested in getting any employment and his name, and was there a possibility of an opening there, and Mr. Truly said he didn't know whether he had an opening, that the young man should apply himself in person.

Mr. Jenner. Which made sense.

Mrs. Paine. Made very good sense for a personnel man to say.

Mr. Jenner. Did you make more than one call to this Texas School Book Depository?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. Only the one?

Mrs. Paine. Only the one.

Mr. Jenner. What was the date of this call?

Mrs. Paine. Reconstructing it, I believe it was October 14.

Mr. Jenner. What day of the week is October 14?

Mrs. Paine. It is a Monday.

Mr. Jenner. Following that call and your talking with Mr. Truly, what did you do?

Mrs. Paine. Began to get dinner. Then Lee call the house.

Mr. Jenner. In the evening?

Mrs. Paine. In the early evening.

Mr. Jenner. Did you talk with him?

Mrs. Paine. Marina talked with him, then asked—then Marina asked me to35 tell Lee in English what had transpired regarding the possible job opening, and then I did say that there might be an opening in the School Book Depository, that Mr. Truly was the man to apply to. Shall I go on?

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mrs. Paine. The next day——

Mr. Jenner. Excuse me, I meant go on as far as the conversation was concerned.

Mrs. Paine. That is all there was.

Mr. Jenner. Mrs. Paine, I would like to return just for a moment to the conversation in the Roberts' home.

Was any possible place of employment in addition to the Texas School Depository mentioned?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. You have no recollection of any other suggestion as to possible places of employment?

Mrs. Paine. I have no recollection of that.

Mr. Jenner. You have no recollection of any other, at least two other places being suggested, and you, in turn, stating that they would be unsatisfactory, one because an automobile had to be used, or it would be necessary for Lee to have an automobile, and the other that he was lacking in the possible qualifications needed? None of that refreshes your recollection?

Mrs. Paine. None of that refreshes my recollection. I certainly know that I thought, for instance, he couldn't have applied to Bell Helicopter or to any place apart from the city area.

Mr. Jenner. But Bell Helicopter was not mentioned?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall it being mentioned.

Mr. Jenner. Your husband is employed by Bell Helicopter, is he not?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Had you made an inquiry of your husband as to the possibility of employment by Lee Harvey Oswald with Bell Helicopter?

Mrs. Paine. No; I hadn't, especially knowing that he had no way of getting there.

Mr. Jenner. Unless he knew how to drive a car?

Mrs. Paine. Unless he knew how to drive a car.

Mr. Jenner. You didn't believe he was proficient enough at this moment to operate it?

Mrs. Paine. We have got on record here that I gave him the first lesson on the 13th of October.

Mr. Jenner. And in any event were you aware he had no driver's license?

Mrs. Paine. I certainly was.

Mr. Jenner. Especially that week?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Did you give him the telephone number and the address of the Texas School Book Depository on the occasion when you talked to him, this is the 14th?

Mrs. Paine. The address, I don't think so. I probably gave the phone number. I don't recall that I gave him an address.

Mr. Jenner. Directing your attention to your address book, you have an entry in your address book of the Texas School Depository, do you not? Would you turn to that page?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; I have it here.

Mr. Jenner. Is there an entry of address of the Texas School Depository on that page?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; which I believe I made after he gained employment there.

Mr. Jenner. Rather than at the time that you advised him of this possibility?

Mrs. Paine. Indeed.

Mr. Jenner. Have you made an entry of the telephone number of the Texas School Book Depository on that date?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; I have and of the address.

Mr. Jenner. And that is the telephone number and the address of the Texas School Depository Building where——

Mrs. Paine. On Elm Street.

36 Mr. Jenner. I heard you mention the Texas School Depository warehouse. Did you think the warehouse was at 411 Elm?

Mrs. Paine. No. I had seen a sign on a building as I went along one of the limited access highways that leads into Dallas, saying "Texas School Book Depository Warehouse" and there was the only building that had registered on my consciousness as being Texas School Book Depository.

I was not aware, hadn't taken in the idea of there being two buildings and that there was one on Elm, though, I copied the address from the telephone book, and could well have made that notation in my mind but I didn't.

The first I realized that there was a building on Elm was when I heard on the television on the morning of the 22d of November that a shot had been fired from such a building.

Mr. Jenner. For the purpose of this record then I would like to emphasize you were under the impression then, were you, that Lee Harvey Oswald was employed?

Mrs. Paine. At the warehouse.

Mr. Jenner. Other than at 411, a place at 411 Elm?

Mrs. Paine. I thought he worked at the warehouse. I had in fact, pointed out the building to my children going into Dallas later after he had gained employment.

Mr. Jenner. Did you ever discuss with Lee Harvey Oswald where he actually was employed, that is the location of the building?

Mrs. Paine. No; I didn't.

Mr. Jenner. Did he ever mention it?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. There never was any discussion between you and, say, young Mr. Frazier or Mrs. Randle or anyone in the neighborhood as to where the place of employment is located?

Mrs. Paine. No. It may be significant here to say, my letter to which I have already referred——

Mr. Jenner. Commission Exhibit No.——

Mrs. Paine. 425, which says, "Lee Oswald is looking for work in Dallas," does not give a time of day.

Mr. Jenner. What is the date of that letter?

Mrs. Paine. October 14, Monday.

Mr. Jenner. This is the letter to your mother?

Mrs. Paine. But I don't normally write letters any time except when the children are asleep, they sometimes nap but usually this is in the evening.

If it were in the evening it means that he had gotten the suggestion as to a place to apply, but I didn't mention that. I only mentioned that he was looking and was discouraged.

I bring this out simply to say that I had no real hopes that he would get a job at the School Book Depository.

I didn't think it too likely that he would, but it was worth a try.

Mr. Jenner. Did you hear from him then either on the 14th or 15th in respect to his effort to obtaining employment at the Texas School Depository?

Mrs. Paine. He called immediately on Tuesday, the 15th, after he had been accepted and said he would start work the next day.

Mr. Jenner. When you say immediately, what time of day was that?

Mrs. Paine. Midmorning I would say, which was contrary to his usual practice of calling in the early evening.

Mr. Jenner. By the way, is the call from Dallas, Tex., to Irving a toll call?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. What is its cost, 10 cents?

Mrs. Paine. I expect so.

Mr. Jenner. Did you answer the phone on the occasion he called?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. What happened?

Mrs. Paine. He asked for Marina.

Mr. Jenner. He said nothing to you about his success?

Mrs. Paine. No.

37 Mr. Jenner. As soon as you answered he asked for Marina?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Did he identify himself?

Mrs. Paine. No; but I am certain he knew that I knew who he was.

Mr. Jenner. You recognized his voice, did you?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. You called her to the phone.

Did you hear her end of the conversation?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. What took place by way of of conversation?

Mrs. Paine. She said, "Hurray, he has got a job." Immediately telling me as she still talked to the telephone that he had been accepted for work at the school book depository and thanks to me and she said, "We must thank Mrs. Randle."

Mr. Jenner. Did you return to the telephone and speak with him?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. You did not. Where was he residing then, did you know?

Mrs. Paine. No; I did not know.

Mr. Jenner. Had you had any information that he was not residing at the YMCA?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. How did you come by that information?

Mrs. Paine. He gave me a telephone number, possibly this same weekend.

Mr. Jenner. That is of importance, Mrs. Paine. Would you give us the circumstances, please?

Mrs. Paine. He said that he was at a——

Mr. Jenner. Excuse me, where was he when he said this?

Mrs. Paine. He was at the home so far as I remember. It might have been during one of his telephone calls to the house, but I don't think so. He rarely talked with me when he was out.

Mr. Jenner. This would be the weekend of what?

Mrs. Paine. So this must have been the weekend of the 12th of October, the same weekend.

Mr. Jenner. That was the weekend following his return to Dallas on the 7th of October?

Mrs. Paine. Fourth of October.

Mr. Jenner. He departed on the 7th.

Mrs. Paine. His return to Dallas, I am sorry.

Mr. Jenner. Yes; now, give it as chronologically as you can; how you came by that telephone number, the circumstances under which it was given to you.

Mrs. Paine. He said this is the telephone number.

Mr. Jenner. Was Marina present?

Mrs. Paine. Yes. He said of the room where he was staying, renting a room, and I could reach him here if she went into labor.

Mr. Jenner. I see, the coming of the baby was imminent?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. When was the baby expected?

Mrs. Paine. Any time after the first week in October. Any time, in other words.

Mr. Jenner. The obstetrician predicted the birth of the child as when?

Mrs. Paine. As due on the 22d.

Mr. Jenner. Did Marina have a different notion?

Mrs. Paine. She thought it might be due around the 8th.

Mr. Jenner. So there was a considerable variance in the expectation between the date and when the baby actually did arrive? When did the baby actually arrive?

Mrs. Paine. On the 20th of October, a Sunday.

Mr. Jenner. Did he give you more than one telephone number?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. At this occasion did he give you more than one telephone number?

Mrs. Paine. No.

38 Mr. Jenner. Just stick to this particular occasion. What telephone number—did you record it?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. In what?

Mrs. Paine. In ink in my telephone book.

Mr. Jenner. Your telephone and address book?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Have you opened that telephone address book to the page in which you have made that recording?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; I have.

Mr. Jenner. Is that the page you identified yesterday?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Excuse me, Mr. Chairman, may I examine it for a moment here.

Now, relate for the record the telephone number that Mr. Oswald gave you, the first one he gave you on this particular occasion?

Mrs. Paine. The number was WH 2-1985.

Mr. Jenner. And that is at the bottom of the page written in ink.

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Is that in your handwriting?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; it is.

Mr. Jenner. What exchange is "WH" in Dallas?

Mrs. Paine. I don't know. I did not know. I know now, maybe I know, Whitehall, something. I know now what it is, but I didn't know then.

Mr. Jenner. Did he on that occasion say anything about where the apartment or room was?

Mrs. Paine. No; he did not.

Mr. Jenner. He did not give you an address?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. Didn't locate it in any area in Dallas?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. All he gave you was the telephone number?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Did he say anything that would indicate to you that you are other than free to call him and ask for him by his surname you knew him by?

Mrs. Paine. No; he did not make such a limitation.

Mr. Jenner. I take it from your testimony that the number was given to you, at least the discussion was, so that you could call him in connection with the oncoming event of the birth of his child?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Am I correct about this?

Mrs. Paine. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. Now, you have mentioned a second number that Mr. Oswald, Lee Harvey Oswald, gave you. Did you receive that second number subsequent to the birth of Rachel or prior to that time?

Mrs. Paine. Also prior to the birth of Rachel.

Mr. Jenner. Now, relate for the Commission the circumstances under which you received a second number?

Mrs. Paine. He gave me a second number, I suppose by phone, but I don't recall.

Mr. Jenner. When?

Mrs. Paine. It was certainly before the birth of the baby because again it was so that I could reach him if she went to the hospital.

Mr. Jenner. He called you or related this to you in your home?

Mrs. Paine. What?

Mr. Jenner. He either called you by telephone or he was present in your home and gave you the second number?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Which recollection serves you best, that he called or that he gave it to you in your home?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall.

Mr. Jenner. What did he say?

Mrs. Paine. He said he moved to different rooms, was paying a dollar a39 week more, $8 instead of $7; incidentally, I needed to know how much he was paying in order to put this on the form of Parkland Hospital, but that it was a little more comfortable and he had television privileges and privileges to use the refrigerator. And he gave me this number.

Mr. Jenner. This was after he obtained employment with the Texas School Book Depository, was it?

Mrs. Paine. I would rationalize that I have judged so.

Mr. Jenner. Is it your best recollection?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. On the second occasion did he give you the location or even the area in Dallas where his second room was located?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. Did you inquire of him?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. No address?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. Was the telephone number given you with any reservation as to when you might call him?

Mrs. Paine. No such reservation.

Mr. Jenner. Any indication that you should ask him, asking for him by other than his surname by which you knew him?

Mrs. Paine. No such indication.

Mr. Jenner. Now, the baby was born on the——

Mrs. Paine. Twentieth.

Mr. Jenner. Twentieth of October. Was Lee present, in town, I mean?

Mrs. Paine. He was at the house in Irving when labor began, and stayed at the house to take care of June and my two children who were sleeping while I took Marina to the hospital since I was the one who could drive.

Mr. Jenner. All right. The 20th is—when did you take her to the hospital?

Mrs. Paine. Around 9 o'clock in the evening.

Mr. Jenner. What day?

Mrs. Paine. Sunday, the 20th of October.

Mr. Jenner. And Lee Harvey Oswald was out there on that weekend on one of his regular visits?

Mrs. Paine. Yes. The first one since he had employment.

Representative Ford. Did you ever call either one of those numbers?

Mrs. Paine. Yes. We will get to it.

Mr. Jenner. You will forgive me because I would like to bring out the particular circumstances of the call.

Representative Ford. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Did Lee go back into town on Monday to go to work?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; he did. I informed him in the morning that he had a baby girl. He was already asleep when I got back—no; that is not right. He was not asleep when I got back from the hospital, but he had gone to bed, and I stayed up and waited to call the hospital to hear what word there was. So, that I knew after he was already asleep that he had a baby girl. I told him in the morning before he went to work.

Mr. Jenner. You called him in Dallas?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. I am a little confused.

Mrs. Paine. No; I am sorry, I will begin again. I took her to the hospital and then I returned. I didn't feel I could stay. I thought I should get back to my children.

Mr. Jenner. This was Sunday night.

Mrs. Paine. Sunday night.

He went to bed, put Junie to bed. I stayed up and waited until what I considered a proper time and then called the hospital to hear what news there was. They had implied I could come and visit, too, but that would have been incorrect, and learned that he had a baby girl. I then went to bed and told him in the morning.

Mr. Jenner. You did not awaken him then?

40 Mrs. Paine. I did not awaken him. I thought about it and I decided if he was not interested in being awake I would tell him in the morning.

Mr. Jenner. And the morning was Monday?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Having learned that he was the father of a baby girl, I assume you told him that?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Did he go to work that day?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Did he return to Irving that evening?

Mrs. Paine. Yes. It was agreed when he left that he would return that evening.

Mr. Jenner. How did he—was he brought back to Irving that evening?

Mrs. Paine. I imagine Wesley brought him.

Mr. Jenner. At least you did not?

Mrs. Paine. I did not.

Mr. Jenner. Did he visit with Marina at the hospital that evening?

Mrs. Paine. When he arrived it was not decided whether he would go to the hospital or not. He thought not, and I thought he should, and encouraged him to go.

Mr. Jenner. Why did he think he ought not to go?

Mrs. Paine. I am uncertain about this. This thought crossed my mind that perhaps he thought they would find out he was working, but I had already told them he was working since I had been asked at the hospital when she was admitted and I mentioned this and it may have changed his mind about going, but this is conjecture on my part.

Mr. Jenner. In any event he did go?

Mrs. Paine. He did go. It was a good thing as he was the only one admitted, I was not either a father or grandmother so I was not permitted to get in.

Mr. Jenner. I see, and you waited until his visit was over and returned home with him?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. Did he return to work the next morning?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; he did.

Mr. Jenner. When next did you hear from him?

Mrs. Paine. The following Friday he came out again.

Mr. Jenner. Do you know how he returned to Dallas that following morning, that is the 22d?

Mrs. Paine. Probably went with Wesley also.

Mr. Jenner. And he came out the following weekend, did he?

Mrs. Paine. Yes. That was his birthday.

Mr. Jenner. The 18th of October is his birthday. Did you have a party for him?

Mrs. Paine. We had a cake; yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Was that weekend uneventful?

Mrs. Paine. Well, Marina was already home.

Mr. Jenner. The baby was now home. She came home very quickly?

Mrs. Paine. Very quickly, a day and a half. She was home on Tuesday, the 16th, is that right—skipped a day, the 22d. So that his party was the week before, too. I was wrong then.

Mr. Jenner. When did he return, on Friday of that week?

Mrs. Paine. Yes, which was the 25th. I was mistaken.

Mr. Jenner. Did he call in each day in the interim?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And talk to Marina and to you?

Mrs. Paine. Well, to Marina.

Mr. Jenner. Inquire about the baby?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. You overheard some of the conversation?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Was anything said about the nature of his reaction to his position41 at the Texas School Book Depository on the second weekend when he came home?

Mrs. Paine. You are talking about the weekend of the 26th?

Mr. Jenner. That is right.

Mrs. Paine. No; I don't recall anything being said.

Mr. Jenner. Now, the next weekend was November 1st to 3d, which is Friday to Sunday, is that correct?

Mrs. Paine. Right.

Mr. Jenner. Was he home on that weekend?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; he was.

Mr. Jenner. And did anything eventful occur on that weekend?

Mrs. Paine. Just a minute. What I was looking for, I wanted to find out whether I had taught a Russian lesson to my single student whom I saw some Saturday afternoon on that weekend, and I recall that I did not. So, the answer is no. I was there that Saturday. May I say if there was a weekend other than October 12 when he came on Saturday instead of Friday night, it was to have been that weekend?

Mr. Jenner. Which weekend?

Mrs. Paine. The weekend of the 1st to the 3d. That is my best recollection anyway.

Mr. Jenner. All right. But other than that possibility, there was nothing—it was a normal weekend at your home?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Now, following that weekend, which was the weekend of November 8 through 10, I think you have already described that weekend. That was the one on which you went to the Texas driver's application bureau, is it not?

Mrs. Paine. Yes. I recall him writing something on the early morning of Saturday—this "Dear Sirs" letter.

Mr. Jenner. Yes; this is the letter or draft of letter dealing with his reporting his visit to Mexico.

Mrs. Paine. Or stating that he had done such a thing, which I did not fully credit.

Mr. Jenner. Did he come the following weekend, that is the weekend of November 15 through 17?

Mrs. Paine. No; he did not.

Mr. Jenner. Why?

Mrs. Paine. Marina asked him not to.

Mr. Jenner. This was the weekend preceding the ill-fated assassination day?

Mrs. Paine. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. Why did she ask him not to?

Mrs. Paine. She felt he had overstayed his welcome the previous weekend which had been 3 days, 9th, 10th, and 11th because he was off Veterans Day, the 11th of November, and she felt it would be simpler and more comfortable if he didn't come out.

Mr. Jenner. Had you had a discussion with her prior to that time on that subject?

Mrs. Paine. I had not suggested that to her.

Mr. Jenner. Did you overhear her tell him that?

Mrs. Paine. I did tell her I was planning a birthday party for my little girl, and I heard her tell Lee not to come out because I was having a birthday party. At some point in this same telephone conversation likely I told him he did not need to have a car but to go himself to the driver training station.

Mr. Jenner. You have described that event for us heretofore this afternoon.

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Or this morning, I have forgotten which.

Mr. McCloy. May I interrupt here. I wonder whether or not you would want to take a rest now. We have been pretty arduous and let's take a little recess now.

(Short recess.)

Mr. Jenner. Mr. Reporter, would you read the last interchange or question and answer?

42 (The reporter read the question and answer.)

Mr. Jenner. Would you fix as best you can for us, the date or time that you first saw the wrapped blanket after you had returned to Irving? How long after that event did you see it to the best of your recollection?

Mrs. Paine. I have said it was the latter part of October. I don't think I can fix it more exactly.

Mr. Jenner. That would be almost or would be over a month afterwards? You returned on September 24?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall thinking, that is, that anything like that marks it as being particular noticeable. So that I am judging that I recall seeing it in October, somewhere towards the end.

Mr. Jenner. Had anything occurred at that time that now leads you to fix it at the latter part of October?

Mrs. Paine. No; there is no way that I have to fix it.

Mr. Jenner. Did you stumble over it or something?

Mr. McCloy. Could it have been as early as October 4 or the 7th when you first got the call from him when he first returned to Dallas?

Mrs. Paine. Conceivably, but I don't remember.

Mr. Dulles. Then you saw it on another occasion, how many days later was that?

Mrs. Paine. I can't fix it that near.

Mr. Dulles. It was several days later, was it, the time when it seemed to have been moved from position "X" to position "XX"?

Mrs. Paine. Oh, yes; that was later.

Mr. McCloy. Can you place it at all, can you place your recollection at all as having seen it in relation to the assassination? The date of the assassination? Was it 2 weeks before, 3 weeks before?

Mrs. Paine. I have inquired of myself for some weeks, was such a package in my station wagon when I arrived from New Orleans, and I cannot recall it, but I cannot be at all certain that there wasn't. I certainly didn't unload it. I never lifted such a package.

Mr. Jenner. Only you and Marina took things out of your station wagon at that time?

Mrs. Paine. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. And you did not——

Mrs. Paine. So I think I would have seen it.

Mr. Dulles. In your earlier testimony I think in reply to a question, you indicated that you and Marina had only talked about this after the assassination that afternoon.

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Dulles. If it is not out of order, I would like to get that into the testimony maybe at this date what took place between them at that time.

Mr. Jenner. On the 22d?

Mr. Dulles. Yes.

Mr. McCloy. I think it is best to leave it at the 22d.

Mr. Jenner. I was going to take her chronologically.

Mr. Dulles. Just so you recall that.

Mr. McCloy. But you can't recall having gone into the garage for any purpose and having stepped over this thing or around it at any time that you would associate with his return from New Orleans and Houston, if he went to Houston?

Mrs. Paine. My best recollection is that it was after, it was in October, therefore.

Mr. McCloy. But later than the 7th of October, you think?

Mrs. Paine. Later than that, yes. That is the best I can do.

Mr. McCloy. But well before the day of November 22?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. I think I have oriented myself without having the reporter read and may I proceed, Mr. Chairman?

Mr. McCloy. Surely.

Mr. Jenner. We have now reached the weekend of the 15th, 16th, and 17th, which is the weekend that Lee Harvey Oswald did not return to your home.

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

43 Mr. Jenner. You had just finished relating that Marina had told him not to come that particular weekend?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Now, was there an occasion during the course of that weekend when a phone call was made to Lee Harvey Oswald. I direct your attention particularly to Sunday evening, the 17th of November.

Mrs. Paine. Looking back on it, I thought that there was a call made to him by me on Monday the 18th, but I may be wrong about when it was made.

Mr. Jenner. Did Marina call him this Sunday evening, November 17?

Mrs. Paine. No. There was only one call made at any one time to him, to my knowledge.

Mr. Jenner. Do you recall an occasion when a call was made to him and you girls were unable to reach him when that call was made?

Mrs. Paine. Yes. I will describe the call, and there is a dispute over what night it was.

Mr. Jenner. I would like your best recollection, first as to when it occurred. Was it during the weekend that he did not return to your home, the weekend immediately preceding the assassination day? Do you recall that Marina was lonesome and she wished you to make a call to Lee and you did so at her request?

Mrs. Paine. I recall certainly we had talked with Lee, on the telephone already that weekend because he called to say that he had been to attempt to get a driver's license permit.

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mrs. Paine. Whether he called that Saturday or whether he had called Sunday, I am not certain. Indeed, I am not certain but what he had called the very day, had already called and talked with Marina the very day that I then, at her request, tried to reach him at the number he had given me, with his number in my telephone book.

Junie was fooling with the telephone dial, and Marina said, "Let's call papa" and asked me——

Mr. Jenner. Was this at night?

Mrs. Paine. It was early evening, still light.

Mr. Jenner. Was it on a weekend?

Mrs. Paine. I would have said it was Monday but I am not certain of that.

Mr. Jenner. Was it——

Mrs. Paine. That is my best recollection, is that it was Monday.

Mr. Jenner. All we want is your best recollection. If it was a Monday, was it the Monday following the weekend that he did not come?

Mrs. Paine. Yes, certainly it was.

Mr. Jenner. I see. That is if it was a Monday, it was the Monday preceding November 22?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. All right.

Mr. Dulles. Could I ask one question?

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mr. Dulles. Was there any evidence that the hint you gave, or that was given, to Lee Harvey not to come over this weekend caused him any annoyance? Was he put out by this, and did he indicate it?

Mrs. Paine. I made no such request of him. Marina talked with him on the phone.

Mr. Dulles. I realize that.

Mrs. Paine. And she made no mention of any irritation. Of course, I didn't hear what he said in response to her asking him not to come.

Mr. Dulles. And it didn't come out in any of these subsequent telephone messages which we are now discussing?

Mrs. Paine. No; I think I probably talked with him during that same telephone conversation to say that he could go without a car, and there was no irritation I noticed.

Mr. Dulles. Thank you.

Mr. Jenner. But it is your definite recollection that his failure to come on the weekend preceding the assassination was not at his doing but at the request of Marina, under the circumstances you have related?

44 Mrs. Paine. I am absolutely clear about that.

Mr. Jenner. You are absolutely clear about that. All right. Now, state, you began to state the circumstances of the telephone call. Would you in your own words and your own chronology proceed with that, please?

Mrs. Paine. Marina had said, "Let's call papa," in Russian and asked me to dial the number for her, knowing that I had a number that he had given us. I then dialed the number——

Mr. Jenner. Excuse me, did you dial the first or the second number?

Mrs. Paine. The second number.

Mr. Jenner. And that number is?

Mrs. Paine. WH 3-8993.

Mr. Jenner. When you dialed the number did someone answer?

Mrs. Paine. Someone answered and I said, "Is Lee Oswald there?" And the person replied, "There is no Lee Oswald here," or something to that effect.

Mr. Jenner. Would it refresh your recollection if he said, "There is nobody by that name here"?

Mrs. Paine. Or it may have been "nobody by that name" or "I don't know Lee Oswald." It could have been any of these.

Mr. Jenner. We want your best recollection.

Mrs. Paine. My best recollection is that he repeated the name.

Mr. Jenner. He repeated the name?

Mrs. Paine. But that is not a certain recollection.

Mr. Jenner. I take it then from the use of the pronoun that the person who answered was a man?

Mrs. Paine. Was a man.

Mr. Jenner. And if you will just sit back and relax a little. I would like to have you restate, if you now will, in your own words, what occurred?

You dialed the telephone, someone answered, a male voice?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. What did he say and what did you say?

Mrs. Paine. I said, "Is Lee Oswald there." He said, "There is no Lee Oswald living here." As best as I can recall. This is the substance of what he said. I said, "Is this a rooming house." He said "Yes." I said, "Is this WH 3-8993?" And he said "Yes." I thanked him and hung up.

Mr. Jenner. When you hung up then what did you next do or say?

Mrs. Paine. I said to Marina, "They don't know of a Lee Oswald at that number."

Mr. Jenner. What did she say?

Mrs. Paine. She didn't say anything.

Mr. Jenner. Just said nothing?

Mrs. Paine. She looked surprised.

Mr. Jenner. Did she evidence any surprise?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; she did, she looked surprised.

Mr. Dulles. You are quite sure you used the first name "Lee," did you, you did not say just "Mr. Oswald," or something of that kind?

Mrs. Paine. I would not say "Mr. Oswald." It is contrary to Quaker practice, and I don't normally do it that way.

Mr. Jenner. Contrary to Quaker practice?

Mrs. Paine. They seldom use "Mister."

Mr. Jenner. I see.

Mr. Dulles. And you wouldn't have said "Harvey Oswald," would you?

Mrs. Paine. I knew he had a middle name but only because I filled out forms in Parkland Hospital. It was never used with him.

Mr. Jenner. You do recall definitely that you asked for Lee Oswald?

Mrs. Paine. I cannot be that definite. But I believe I asked for him. Oh, yes; I recall definitely what I asked. I cannot be definite about the man's reply, whether he included the full name in his reply.

Mr. Jenner. But you did?

Mrs. Paine. I asked for the full name, "Is Lee Oswald there."

Mr. Jenner. Did you report this incident to the FBI?

Mrs. Paine. I had no occasion to see them, and I did not think it important enough to call them after that until the 23d of November.

45 Mr. Jenner. Perhaps I may well have deferred that question until after I asked you the next.

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Did any event occur the following day with respect to this telephone call?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; Lee called——

Mr. Jenner. What was it?

Mrs. Paine. Lee called at the house and asked for Marina. I was in the kitchen where the phone is while Marina talked with him, she clearly was upset, and angry, and when she hung up——

Mr. Jenner. Excuse me, did you overhear this conversation?

Mrs. Paine. I overheard the conversation but I can't tell you specific content.

Mr. Jenner. Please, Mrs. Paine, would you do your very best to recall what was said?

Mrs. Paine. I can tell you what she said to me which was immediately after, which is what I definitely recall.

Mr. Jenner. Thank you.

Mrs. Paine. She said immediately he didn't like her trying to reach him at the phone in his room at Dallas yesterday. That he was angry with her for having tried to reach him. That he said he was using a different name, and she said, "This isn't the first time I felt 22 fires," a Russian expression.

Mr. Jenner. This is something she said?

Mrs. Paine. She said this. This is not the first time, but it was the first time she had mentioned it to me.

Mr. Jenner. Give her exact words to me again.

Mrs. Paine. When she felt 22 fires.

Mr. Jenner. That is the expression she used?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Did you understand what she meant or, if not, did you ask for an explanation?

Mrs. Paine. I did not ask for an explanation. I judged she meant, she disagreed with his using a different name, but didn't feel like, empowered to make him do otherwise or even perhaps ask to as a wife.

Mr. Dulles. How long a conversation was this. Was it——

Mrs. Paine. Fairly short.

Mr. Dulles. Fairly short.

Mrs. Paine. That is my recollection.

Representative Ford. What day of the month and what day of the week was this?

Mrs. Paine. Well, reconstructing it, I thought they succeeded each other, the original call to the WH number on Monday and his call back on Tuesday.

Representative Ford. When he called back it was late in the afternoon or early evening?

Mrs. Paine. It was the normal time for him to call back, early evening, around 5:30.

Mr. Jenner. You have a definite impression she was angry when she hung up?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Was she abrupt in her hanging up. Did she hang up on him?

Mrs. Paine. No; she was angry, she was upset.

Mr. Jenner. And her explanation of her being upset was that he used the assumed name?

Mrs. Paine. Well, she didn't explain it as such, but she said he had used it.

Mr. Jenner. He was angry with her because you had made the call?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Or she had made it through you?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Did any further discussion take place between you and Marina on that subject?

Mrs. Paine. Yes. The following day he did not call at the usual time.

Mr. Jenner. That would be the following day, the 20th?

Mrs. Paine. I believe that was a Wednesday and that is how I slipped a day.

Mr. Jenner. He didn't call at all on the succeeding day?

46 Mrs. Paine. He didn't call at all, and she said to me as the time for normally calling passed, "He thinks he is punishing me."

Mr. Jenner. For what?

Mrs. Paine. For having been a bad wife, I would judge, for having done something he didn't want her to do, the objection.

Mr. Jenner. To wit, the telephone call about which you have told us?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Did you and Marina go through a normal day that day, or was there any other subject of discussion with respect to Lee Oswald on that day?

Mrs. Paine. Nothing I would specifically recall; no.

Mr. Jenner. This was the 20th of November, a Wednesday?

Mrs. Paine. To the best of my recollection.

Mr. Jenner. Let's proceed with the 21st. Did anything occur on the 21st with respect to Lee Harvey Oswald, that is a Thursday?

Mrs. Paine. I arrived home from grocery shopping around 5:30, and he was on the front lawn. I was surprised to see him.

Mr. Jenner. You had no advance notice?

Mrs. Paine. I had no advance notice and he had never before come without asking whether he could.

Mr. Jenner. Never before had he come to your home in that form without asking your permission to come?

Mrs. Paine. Without asking permission; that is right.

Mr. Jenner. And he was out on the lawn as you drove up, on your lawn?

Mrs. Paine. That is right. Playing with June and talking with Marina, who was also out on the lawn.

Mr. Jenner. And you were, of course, surprised to see him?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Did you park your car in the driveway as usual?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Did you walk over to speak with him?

Mrs. Paine. Yes, got out, very likely picked some groceries out of the car and he very likely picked some up too, and this is I judge what may have happened.

Mr. Jenner. Tell the Commission what was said between you and Lee Oswald?

Mrs. Paine. Between me and Lee Oswald?

Mr. Jenner. Yes; on that occasion.

Mrs. Paine. That is not what I recall. I recall talking with Marina on the side.

Mr. Jenner. First. Didn't you greet him?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; I greeted him.

Mr. Jenner. And then what did you do, walk in the house?

Mrs. Paine. As we were walking in the house, and he must have preceded because Marina and I spoke in private to one another, she apologized.

Mr. Jenner. Was Marina out on the lawn also?

Mrs. Paine. Yes, sir. She apologized for his having come without permission and I said that was all right, and we said either then or later—I recall exchanging our opinion that this was a way of making up the quarrel or as close as he could come to an apology for the fight on the telephone, that his coming related to that, rather than anything else.

Mr. Jenner. That was her reaction to his showing up uninvited and unexpectedly on that particular afternoon, was it?

Mrs. Paine. Well, it was rather my own, too.

Mr. Jenner. And it was your own?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And because of this incident of the telephone call and your not being able to reach him, and the subsequent talk between Lee and Marina in which there had been some anger expressed, you girls reached the conclusion the afternoon of November 21 that he was home just to see if he could make up with Marina?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Do I fairly state it?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

47 Mr. Jenner. What did you do that evening? Did you have occasion to note what he did?

Mrs. Paine. We had dinner as usual, and then I sort of bathed my children, putting them to bed and reading them a story, which put me in one part of the house. When that was done I realized he had already gone to bed, this being now about 9 o'clock. I went out to the garage to paint some children's blocks, and worked in the garage for half an hour or so. I noticed when I went out that the light was on.

Mr. Jenner. The light was on in the garage?

Mrs. Paine. The light was on in the garage.

Mr. Jenner. Was this unusual?

Mrs. Paine. Oh, it was unusual for it to be on; yes. I realized that I felt Lee, since Marina had also been busy with her children, had gone out to the garage, perhaps worked out there or gotten something. Most of their clothing was still out there, all of their winter things. They were getting things out from time to time, warmer things for the cold weather, so it was not at all remarkable that he went to the garage, but I thought it careless of him to have left the light on. I finished my work and then turned off the light and left the garage.

Mr. Jenner. Have you completed that now?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. You stated that he was in the garage, how did you know he was in the garage?

Mr. McCloy. She didn't state that.

Mrs. Paine. I didn't state it absolutely. I guessed it was he rather than she. She was busy with the children and the light had been on and I know I didn't leave the light on.

Mr. Jenner. Then, I would ask you directly, did you see him in the garage at anytime from the time you first saw him on the lawn until he retired for the night?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. Until you retired for the night?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. Was he out on the lawn after dinner or supper?

Mrs. Paine. I don't believe so.

Mr. Jenner. Did you hear any activity out in the garage on that evening?

Mrs. Paine. No; I did not.

Mr. Jenner. Any persons moving about?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. The only thing that arrested your attention was the fact that you discovered the light on in the garage?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. Before you retired?

Representative Ford. You discovered that when you went out to work there?

Mrs. Paine. When I went out to work there.

Mr. McCloy. When you went out there, did you notice the blanket?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall specifically seeing the blanket. I certainly recall on the afternoon of the 22d where it had been.

Mr. Dulles. Was there any evidence of any quarreling or any harsh words between Lee Harvey and Marina that evening that you know of?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. Was there a coolness between them?

Mrs. Paine. He went to bed very early, she stayed up and talked with me some, but there was no coolness that I noticed. He was quite friendly on the lawn as we——

Mr. Jenner. I mean coolness between himself and—between Lee and Marina.

Mrs. Paine. I didn't notice any such coolness. Rather, they seemed warm, like a couple making up a small spat, I should interject one thing here, too, that I recall as I entered the house and Lee had just come in, I said to him, "Our President is coming to town."

And he said, "Ah, yes," and walked on into the kitchen, which was a common48 reply from him on anything. I was just excited about this happening, and there was his response. Nothing more was said about it.

Mr. Dulles. I didn't quite catch his answer.

Mrs. Paine. "Ah, yes," a very common answer.

Mr. Jenner. He gave no more than that laconic answer?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. Had there been any discussion between you and Marina that the President was coming into town the next day?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Did she say anything on that subject in the presence of Lee that evening?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall anything of that sort.

Mr. Jenner. What time did you have dinner that evening?

Mrs. Paine. 6 or 6:30, I would guess.

Mr. Jenner. And calling on your recollection, Mrs. Paine, following dinner do you remember any occasion that evening when Lee was out of the house and you didn't see him around the house, and you were conscious of the fact he was not in the house?

Mrs. Paine. I was not at anytime of the opinion that he was out of the house, conscious of it.

Mr. Jenner. You have no recollection of his being out of the house anytime that evening?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Dulles. Did he do any reading that evening—books, papers, anything?

Mrs. Paine. Not to my recollection.

Mr. Jenner. What were you doing that evening?

Mrs. Paine. I have tried already to describe that after dinner, and probably after some dishes were done.

Mr. Jenner. Who did the dishes?

Mrs. Paine. Very likely Marina, it depended on who made the meal. I normally cooked the meal and then she did the dishes or we reversed occasionally. But I have tried to say I was very likely involved in the back bedroom and in the bathroom giving the children a bath, getting them in their pajamas and reading a story for as much as an hour.

Mr. Jenner. That would take as much as an hour?

Mrs. Paine. That takes as much as an hour.

Mr. Jenner. By this time we are up to approximately 7:30 or 8 o'clock, are we?

Mrs. Paine. Oh no; we are up to nearly 9 o'clock by now. We eat from 6:30 to after 7, do some dishes, brings it up toward 8, and then put the children to bed.

Mr. Jenner. When you had had your children put to bed and came out of their room, was Lee, had he then by that time retired?

Mrs. Paine. That is my recollection.

Mr. Dulles. Did you have any words with Marina about the light in the garage? Was that a subject of conversation between you?

Mrs. Paine. No; we didn't discuss it.

Mr. Dulles. You didn't mention it to her?

Mrs. Paine. No; I didn't discuss it.

Representative Ford. Did he ever help in the kitchen at all, in any way whatsoever?

Mrs. Paine. Well, I have said he once did dishes in New Orleans, but that is about all I recall that he did.

Representative Ford. But in Dallas, in your home, he never volunteered?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. McCloy. Marina did help around the house?

Mrs. Paine. She helped a great deal.

Mr. McCloy. She was a good helper?

Mrs. Paine. She is a hard worker.

Mr. Jenner. Tell us, the time you came out of the bedroom and put your children to bed when you noticed the light in the garage; fix as well as you can the time of evening.

49 Mrs. Paine. I think it was about 9 o'clock.

Mr. Jenner. That is when you noticed the light in the garage, around 9 o'clock after you put your children to bed, and at that time Lee was already retired?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Marina was still up?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. How long did she remain up?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall that evening from that point on much like any others, with the two of us up, we probably folded some diapers, laundry. Some evening close to that time, either that evening or the one before, we discussed plans for Christmas.

Mr. Jenner. You and Marina?

Mrs. Paine. Yes. But it was probably the evening before. I was thinking about making a playhouse for the children.

Mr. Jenner. Would you describe Lee's attire when you first saw him on the lawn when you returned that evening?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall it.

Mr. Jenner. You have no recollection of that? Did he bring—do you know whether he brought anything with him in the way of paper or wrapper or luggage or this sticky tape, anything of that nature?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall seeing anything of that nature.

Mr. Jenner. Did you see any paper, wrapping paper, of the character that you have identified around your home that evening?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. McCloy. Can't you recall a little more clearly how he generally was dressed? Did he have a coat on such as I have got on now, or did he have——

Mrs. Paine. I never saw him in a suit jacket.

Mr. McCloy. Suit jacket? What was his normal outer wear apparel?

Mrs. Paine. His normal attire was T-shirt, cotton slacks, sometimes the T-shirt covered by a shirt, flannel or cotton shirt.

Mr. McCloy. Do you recall whether he had that type of shirt over his T-shirt that night?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall.

Mr. McCloy. You don't recall?

Mr. Jenner. Did he have any kind of a shirt other than a T-shirt on him when you saw him?

Mrs. Paine. I don't really remember.

Mr. Jenner. I wonder, Mr. Chairman, if despite the fact I haven't reached the next day, if we might excuse Mrs. Paine? She did tell me she had an appointment at 5:30 this evening, and I would like to have her think over more so she can be refreshed in the morning as to this particular evening. And, Mrs. Paine, I would have you trace the first thing in the morning as best as you can recall Lee Harvey Oswald's movements that evening and where he was, to the best that you are able to recall. Would you try to do that for us?

Mrs. Paine. I think I probably have done the best I can, but I will do it again if you like.

Mr. Jenner. May we have permission to adjourn, Mr. Chairman?

Mr. McCloy. Very well.

Mr. Dulles. Could I ask just one question? With regard to this sketch of the house, I was interested to know where you would see the light in the garage. Was it from out here?

Mrs. Paine. This is a doorway into the garage from the kitchen area.

Mr. Dulles. And you saw that light from the kitchen area?

Mrs. Paine. I think I was probably on my way to the garage anyway, opened the door, there was the light on.

Mr. Dulles. I see. There are no windows or anything. The door was closed and the light would not be visible if you hadn't gone into it?

Mrs. Paine. It would be visible if it was dark in here.

Mr. Dulles. I understand. Through the door.

Representative Ford. And you spent about a half hour in the garage painting some blocks?

50 Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Representative Ford. What part of the garage——

Mrs. Paine. Close to the doorway here, the entrance, this entrance.

Representative Ford. The entrance going into the——

Mrs. Paine. The doorway between the garage and the kitchen-dining area. Right here.

Representative Ford. You didn't move around the garage?

Mrs. Paine. I moved around enough to get some shellac and brush and make a place, a block is this big, to paint.

Representative Ford. Where do you recollect, if you do, the blanket was at this time?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recollect. It was the next day——

Representative Ford. It was the forepart of the garage on the left-hand side?

Mrs. Paine. Beyond.

Mr. McCloy. Does anyone have any further questions?

Mr. Jenner. No questions, Mr. Chairman.

Representative Ford has directed the attention of the witness to the document which is now Exhibit No. 430, and when we reconvene in the morning I will qualify the exhibit.

Mr. McCloy. Is that all?

We will reconvene at 9 a.m., tomorrow.

(Whereupon, at 5:30 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)


Friday, March 20, 1964
TESTIMONY OF RUTH HYDE PAINE RESUMED

The President's Commission met at 9:05 a.m. on Friday, March 20, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C.

Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Senator John Sherman Cooper, Representative Gerald R. Ford, and John J. McCloy, members.

Also present were J. Lee Rankin, general counsel; Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel; and Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel.

Senator Cooper. Mrs. Paine, you, I think, yesterday affirmed, made affirmation as to the truthfulness of your testimony?

Mrs. Paine. Yes, I did.

Senator Cooper. You are still under that affirmation?

Mrs. Paine. I understand that I am under that affirmation.

Mr. Jenner. May I proceed?

Thank you. Mrs. Paine, just to put you at ease this morning, Mr. Chairman, may I qualify some documents?

The Chairman. Good morning, gentlemen and ladies. How are you, Mrs. Paine? I am glad to see you this morning.

Mr. Jenner. Mrs. Paine, I show you Commission Exhibit No. 425 which you produced and which you testified was the original of a letter of October 14, 1963, to your mother, part of which you read at large in the record. Is that document in your handwriting entirely?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; it is.

Mr. Jenner. You testified it is a letter from you to your mother?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. Did you dispatch the letter?

Mrs. Paine. I did.

51 Mr. Jenner. In view of that fact would you explain for the record how you came into possession of the letter since you sent it to your mother?

Mrs. Paine. She gave it to me a few days ago.

Mr. Jenner. Is the document now in the same condition it was when you mailed it to your mother?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; it is. You have the first page of two. The other page not being relative to this case.

Mr. Jenner. In other words, that there be no question about it, do you have the other page?

Mrs. Paine. I have the other page.

Mr. Jenner. May I have it?

Mrs. Paine. The other page, of course, contains my signature.

Mr. Jenner. Yes. May the record be amended to show that Commission Exhibit No. ——.

Mrs. Paine. I'd rather not have that part of it——

Mr. Jenner. It is not going into the record, Mrs. Paine. Just be patient. Commission Exhibit 425 consists of two pages, that is two sheets. The pages are numbered from one through four. Would you look at the page numbered 4? There is a signature appearing at the bottom of it. Is that your signature?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; it is.

Mr. Jenner. Mr. Chairman, may I postpone the offer of this document in evidence until I do read the second page, which the witness has now produced. You see, Mrs. Paine, that it may be important to the Commission to have the entire letter which would indicate the context in which the statements that are relevant were made.

You testified yesterday with regard to the draft of what appeared to be a letter that Mr. Oswald, Lee Harvey Oswald, was to send. It was thought he might send it to someone. I hand you a picture of a letter in longhand which has been identified as Commission Exhibit 103. Would you look at that please? Do you recognize that handwriting?

Mrs. Paine. No. This is the only time I saw—this is the only handwriting of his I have seen.

Mr. Jenner. You can't identify the document as such, that is, are you familiar enough with his handwriting——

Mrs. Paine. To know that this is his handwriting?

Mr. Jenner. To identify whether that is or is not his handwriting.

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. Have you ever seen that Document before?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; I have.

Mr. Jenner. When did you first see it?

Mrs. Paine. I first saw that on Saturday, the 9th of November. I don't believe I looked to see what it said until the morning of the 10th.

Mr. Jenner. I see. Now, do you recognize it, however, as a picture of the document that you did see on the 9th of November, or did you say 10th?

Mrs. Paine. I'll say 10th, yes; it is that document.

Senator Cooper. What is the answer?

Mrs. Paine. It is that document.

Mr. Jenner. And I take it from your testimony that after you had seen the original of this document, this document happens to be a photo, you saw a typed transcript of this document or substantially this document?

Mrs. Paine. I never saw a typed transcript.

Mr. Jenner. You did not?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. Mrs. Paine, you testified yesterday that Lee Harvey Oswald asked you if he could use your typewriter?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. And he did proceed to use the typewriter to type a letter or at least some document?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And that you saw a document folded in half and one portion of it arrested your attention?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; that is correct.

52 Mr. Jenner. Was the document that arrested your attention the typed document or was it the document that is before you?

Mrs. Paine. I never saw the typed document. It was the document that is before me, which I take to be a rough draft of what he typed.

Mr. Jenner. And you said you made a duplicate of the document. Did you make a duplicate in longhand or on your typewriter?

Mrs. Paine. I made a duplicate in longhand.

Mr. Jenner. But you do have a present recollection that this, Commission Exhibit No. 103 for identification, is the document which you saw in your home on your desk secretary?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. Mr. Chairman, I offer in evidence as Commission Exhibit No. 103 the document—oh, it is already in evidence. I withdraw that offer.

Senator Cooper. It is in evidence.

Mr. Jenner. Mr. Redlich informs me, Mr. Chairman, that the document has already been admitted in evidence.

Now, would you follow me as I go through these? There has been marked as Commission's Exhibit 430, which is the mark at the moment for identification, what purports to be a floor plan outline of the Paine home at 2515 Fifth Street, Irving, Tex., and the witness made reference to that yesterday close to the close of her testimony yesterday afternoon. Directing your attention to that exhibit, is that an accurate floor plan outline of your home at 2515 Fifth Street, Irving, Tex.?

Mrs. Paine. It is an approximately accurate floor plan.

Mr. Jenner. And is it properly entitled, that is, are the rooms and sections of the home properly entitled?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; they are.

Mr. Jenner. And does it accurately reflect the door openings, the hallways in your home and the garage?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; it is perfectly accurate.

Mr. Jenner. I think one thing only needs some explanation. In the upper left-hand corner of the floor plan outline, there is a square space which has no lettering to identify that space. It is the area immediately to the left of the—of what is designated as kitchen-dining area.

Mrs. Paine. Yes. That space is all one room with that which is designated kitchen-dining area. That is one large room.

Mr. Jenner. I see. So that even though on the floor plan outline the words "kitchen-dining area" appear in the right half of that space, that lettering and wording is to apply to all the space?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. And the driveway about which you testified is that portion of the ground outline which has the circle with the figure "8" and an arrow, is that right?

Mrs. Paine. That is the driveway.

Mr. Jenner. And the driveway is where the car was parked because the garage always had too many things in it to get your car in?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. Referring to Commission Exhibit No. 431 for identification, is that a front view of your home?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; it is.

Mr. Jenner. Were you present when the picture was taken?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; I was.

Mr. Jenner. Commission Exhibit 432, is that a rear view of your home?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; it is.

Mr. Jenner. Were you present when that was taken?

Mrs. Paine. Probably. I don't recall.

Mr. Jenner. But that is an accurate depiction?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Of the rear of your home?

Mrs. Paine. It is certainly accurate.

Mr. Jenner. And showing some of your yard. The next Exhibit 433, is that a view of the east side of your home?

53 Mrs. Paine. East and north; yes.

Mr. Jenner. And were you present when that was taken?

Mrs. Paine. I wouldn't know.

Mr. Jenner. But it is an accurate depiction of that area of your home?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Commission Exhibit 434, is that a view of the west side of your home?

Mrs. Paine. West and north.

Mr. Jenner. Were you present when that was taken?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall.

Mr. Jenner. Despite that, is it accurate?

Mrs. Paine. It is perfectly accurate.

Mr. Jenner. Now, is Commission Exhibit 435 a view inside your home looking through the door leading to the garage from your kitchen?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; it is.

Mr. Jenner. And were you present when that was taken?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; I was.

Mr. Jenner. And is it accurate?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; it is.

Mr. Jenner. Commission Exhibit 436, is that a picture of the doorway area leading to the backyard of your home?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; it is.

Mr. Jenner. Were you present when that was taken?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; I was.

Mr. Jenner. Is it accurate?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Commission Exhibit 437, is that the kitchen area in your home?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; it is.

Mr. Jenner. Now, were you present when that was taken?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; I was.

Mr. Jenner. And is it accurate?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Returning now to the floor plan exhibit, Commission Exhibit 430, is Commission Exhibit 437, which is the kitchen area in your home, that portion of Commission Exhibit 430 which is lettered "kitchen-dining area."

Mrs. Paine. It is a picture of that portion.

Mr. Jenner. Of that portion, rather than the portion to the left which is unlettered?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. The garage interior we identified yesterday. By the way, have you ever been in the Randle home?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; I have.

Mr. Jenner. Have you been there often enough to identify a floor plan and pictures of the Randle home?

Mrs. Paine. Yes. I have been there perhaps once or twice.

Mr. McCloy. Do you intend to call Mrs. Randle?

Mr. Jenner. Unfortunately Mrs. Randle has already testified and Mr. Ball when he questioned her did not have this exhibit. It wasn't in existence.

I show you a page marked Commission Exhibit No. 441 entitled "Randle Home, 2439 West Fifth Street, Irving, Tex.," purporting to be a floor plan outline of the Randle home. You have been in the Randle home?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; I have.

Mr. Jenner. On several occasions?

Mrs. Paine. Two or three; yes.

Mr. Jenner. And are you familiar with the general area of the Randle home?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Surrounding the Randle home?

Mrs. Paine. Indeed; I am.

Mr. Jenner. And looking at Commission Exhibit 441, is that an accurate floor plan outline and general community outline of the Randle home?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; I would say it is.

54 Mr. Jenner. I show you Commission Exhibit 442. Is that an accurate and true and correct photograph showing the corner view of the Randle home?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; it is.

Mr. Jenner. Exhibit 443, is that an accurate photograph of a portion of the kitchen portion, the front of the kitchen window of the Randle home?

Mrs. Paine. I believe so.

Mr. Jenner. Does your recollection serve you——

Mrs. Paine. I am trying to see if I know which is west and north there and I am not certain.

Mr. Jenner. Let us return to the floor plan.

Mrs. Paine. This would be, yes, that is what I thought. This is looking then west.

Mr. Jenner. You have now oriented yourself. And is it an accurate picture of the front of the kitchen?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Senator Cooper. Which exhibit are you referring to now?

Mr. Jenner. The front of the Randle home No. 443. The next number, 444, is that an accurate photograph of the area of the Randle home showing a view from the field from the Randle's kitchen window?

Mrs. Paine. That is accurate.

Mr. Jenner. Across the street?

Mrs. Paine. Correct.

Mr. Jenner. Commission Exhibit 445, is that an accurate photograph of the kitchen of the Randle home looking at the direction of the carport from the Randle home?

Mrs. Paine. That is an accurate picture showing the door opening to the carport; yes.

Mr. Jenner. And the kitchen portion of the Randle home facing on the carport?

Mrs. Paine. Correct.

Mr. Jenner. Have you ever been in the carport area of the Randle home?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; I have.

Mr. Jenner. And is Commission Exhibit 446 a view of a portion of the carport area of the Randle home?

Mrs. Paine. It looks like it.

Mr. Jenner. Now 447 is a photograph taken from the street looking toward the Randle home, is that right?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And it is the west side of the Randle house?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Showing that carport area?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And it is accurate, isn't it?

Mrs. Paine. It is accurate.

Mr. Jenner. Commission Exhibit 438, is that an accurate photograph of the area of Irving Street showing not only the Randle house but also your home?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; that is accurate.

Mr. Jenner. And is Commission Exhibit 448——

Senator Cooper. What was the number of the photograph which you just referred to?

Mr. Jenner. 438. 438 is view looking northeast showing the Paine home at the left and the Randle home at the far right. Directing your attention to Commission Exhibit 448, is that an accurate photograph showing a view of the Randle home looking West Fifth Street?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Is Commission Exhibit 438 an accurate photograph showing a view looking west along Fifth Street to your home?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; it is.

Mr. Jenner. And is the arrow that appears on that photograph—does that point to your home?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Is Commission Exhibit No. 450, which I now show you, an accurate55 photograph of the intersection of Westbrook Drive and West Fifth Street viewed from immediately outside the Randle kitchen window?

Mrs. Paine. It looks to be exactly that.

Mr. Jenner. I now show you Commission Exhibit No. 440 entitled "Paine and Randle homes, Irving, Tex." which purports to be, and I believe is, a scale drawing of the area in Irving, Tex., along West Fifth Street and Westbrook Drive, in which your home at 2515 West Fifth Street is shown in outline, and the location and form of the Randle home down the street and on the corner is likewise shown.

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Is that accurate?

Mrs. Paine. That is accurate.

Senator Cooper. Are you going to make part of the record these exhibits which she has identified?

Mr. Jenner. Yes; I am about to offer these and I would ask Mr. Redlich if he would assemble the exhibit numbers so I can make the offer, please.

Mrs. Paine, now that you have had a rest over night, we would like to return to the late afternoon and the evening of November 21. Did Lee Harvey Oswald come to Irving, Tex., at anytime that day?

Mrs. Paine. He came some time shortly before 5:30 in the evening on the 21st.

Mr. Jenner. Had either you or Marina, I limit it to you first, had you had any notice or intimation whatsoever that Lee Harvey Oswald would appear on that day?

Mrs. Paine. Absolutely none.

Mr. Jenner. And his appearance was a complete surprise to you?

Mrs. Paine. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. Did anything occur during the day or during that week up to the time that you saw Lee Harvey Oswald that afternoon that impressed you or led you to believe that Marina had any notion whatsoever that her husband would or might appear at your home on that day?

Mrs. Paine. Nothing. I rather had the contrary impressions.

Mr. Jenner. Now, what was your first notice, what was the circumstances that brought your attention to the fact that Lee Harvey Oswald was in Irving, Tex., that afternoon.

Mrs. Paine. I arrived home from the grocery store in my car and saw he was on the front lawn at my house.

Mr. Jenner. You had had no word whatsoever from anybody prior to that moment?

Mrs. Paine. No word whatsoever.

Mr. Jenner. Now where was he? And we may use the exhibits we have just identified. Mr. Chairman, I offer in evidence the photographs and the floor plans and the area outlines the witness has just identified and testified about as they are Commission Exhibit Nos. 429 through 448 both inclusive, and 450 and 452.

Senator Cooper. The exhibits offered will be received in evidence.

(Commission Exhibits Nos. 429 through 448 both inclusive, and 450 and 452 were received in evidence.)

The Chairman. Senator Cooper, at this time I am obliged to leave for our all-day conference on Friday at the Supreme Court, and I may be back later in the day, but if I don't, you continue, of course.

Senator Cooper. I will this morning. If I can't be here this afternoon, whom do you want to preside?

The Chairman. Congressman Ford, would you be here this afternoon at all?

Representative Ford. Unfortunately Mr. McCloy and I have to go to a conference out of town.

The Chairman. You are both going out of town, aren't you?

Senator Cooper. I can go and come back if it is necessary.

The Chairman. I will try to be here myself. Will Mr. Dulles be here?

Mr. McCloy. He is out of town.

The Chairman. If you should not finish, Mr. Jenner, will you phone me at the Court and I will try to suspend my own conference over there and come over.

56 Senator Cooper. I will be here anyway all morning and will try to come back this afternoon.

The Chairman. Thank you very much. Mrs. Paine, I want to thank you for coming and for being so patient with our long questioning.

Mrs. Paine. I am glad to do what I can.

The Chairman. You know that it is necessary.

Mrs. Paine. Indeed.

The Chairman. Thank you very much.

Mr. Jenner. You might use the ruler, and I have set the floor plan and the area plan of your home, Mrs. Paine, Exhibit 430, on the blackboard. As you testify, it might be helpful to point to those areas. Now in which direction were you coming?

Mrs. Paine. I was coming from the east.

Mr. Jenner. From the east?

Mrs. Paine. Along West Fifth.

Mr. Jenner. You were going west. Your home is on the right-hand side.

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. When did you first sight, where were you when you first saw Lee in your courtyard?

Mrs. Paine. Just past the corner of Westbrook and Fifth.

Mr. Jenner. That area is open from that point to your home; is it?

Mrs. Paine. The area of the front yard; yes.

Mr. Jenner. Your home is well set back from the street or sidewalk?

Mrs. Paine. Moderately set back.

Mr. Jenner. What would you judge that distance to be?

Mrs. Paine. Two car lengths from the opening of the garage to the sidewalk.

Mr. Jenner. Now where was Lee Oswald when you first saw him?

Mrs. Paine. He was on the grass just to the east of the driveway.

Mr. Jenner. Near the driveway just to the east, but he was out in front of your home?

Mrs. Paine. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. What did you do then? You proceeded down the street?

Mrs. Paine. I parked my car, yes; parked my car in its usual position in the driveway.

Mr. Jenner. In your driveway?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Up close to the garage opening?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And that left you then, you were on the left side or the driving side of your automobile. You got out, did you?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Which way? Did you get out to your left or did you swing across the seat and get out at the right hand door?

Mrs. Paine. I got out on the driver's side, on the left.

Mr. Jenner. Then what did you do? First tell us what you did. Did you go into your home directly? Did you walk around?

Mrs. Paine. No. I greeted Lee and Marina, who were both on the front lawn.

Mr. Jenner. Was their daughter June out in front as well?

Mrs. Paine. Their daughter June was out in front. It was warm. Lee was playing with June.

Mr. Jenner. How was he attired?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall specifically.

Mr. Jenner. You said that he normally wore a T-shirt.

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Was he in a T-shirt or shirt?

Mrs. Paine. I'd be fairly certain he didn't have a jacket on, but that whatever it was was tucked in.

Mr. Jenner. Do you remember the color of his trousers?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. Now at that point you were surprised to see him?

Mrs. Paine. I was.

Mr. Jenner. What did you say to him?

57 Mrs. Paine. I don't recall.

Mr. Jenner. But you do recall greeting him?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. You don't recall that you evidenced any surprise that he was there?

Mrs. Paine. Oh, I think I did.

Mr. Jenner. Had there ever been an occasion prior thereto that he had appeared at your home without prior notice to you and permission from you for him to appear?

Mrs. Paine. There had been no such occasion. He had always asked permission prior to coming.

Mr. Jenner. And there never had been an exception to that up to this moment?

Mrs. Paine. No exception.

Mr. Jenner. May we have the time again? You say it was late in the afternoon, but can you fix the time a little more?

Mrs. Paine. It was getting on toward 5:30.

Mr. Jenner. Did you tarry and talk with Lee and Marina?

Mrs. Paine. I remember only that Marina and I were still on the grass at the entryway to the house when she spoke of her embarrassment to me in an aside, that is to say, not in Lee's hearing, that she was sorry he hadn't called ahead and asked if that was all right. And I said "Why, that is all right."

Mr. Jenner. Nothing was said by her as to why he had come out?

Mrs. Paine. Nothing.

Mr. Jenner. And nothing was——

Mrs. Paine. She was clearly surprised also.

Mr. Jenner. Yes. You made no inquiry of her I take it then of any explanation made by Lee Oswald as to why he had come out unannounced and unexpectedly?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. At least not as of that moment.

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. Now when you had your aside with Marina, where was Lee Oswald?

Mrs. Paine. On the grass near the tree playing with June as closely as I can remember.

Mr. Jenner. How long did you and Marina remain in conversation at that place, position?

Mrs. Paine. Less than a minute.

Mr. Jenner. Then what did you do?

Mrs. Paine. I can only reconstruct it.

Mr. Jenner. That is all I am asking you to do.

Mrs. Paine. I must have gotten groceries from the car.

Mr. Jenner. You mean reconstruct in the sense of rationalizing?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. I wish you would give me first your recollection.

Mrs. Paine. I am certain of going into the house, and I recall standing just inside the doorway.

Mr. Jenner. Of your home?

Mrs. Paine. Of my home.

Mr. Jenner. But inside the home?

Mrs. Paine. But inside now.

Mr. Jenner. Which way were you facing when you were standing inside the doorway?

Mrs. Paine. I was facing partly toward the door, toward the loud speaker. I was facing this way.

Mr. Jenner. Why were you facing outwardly?

Mrs. Paine. I believe I turned. I was coming in. I believe I turned to speak to Lee as he came in.

Mr. Jenner. Lee followed you in the house?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And did Marina come in?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall whether she was already in or still out.

58 Mr. Jenner. But you do have a recollection that Lee followed you into your home.

Mrs. Paine. And I recall very clearly the position I was in in the room and the position he was in.

Mr. Jenner. Tell us.

Mrs. Paine. I was turned part way toward the door. He was coming in, having just entered the door and in front of this loud speaker to which I refer.

Mr. Jenner. What was the loud speaker?

Mrs. Paine. The loud speaker is part of the Hi-Fi set. It stands—it is a big thing.

Mr. Jenner. Did something occur at that moment?

Mrs. Paine. And it was at that time that I said to him "Our President is coming to town." I believe I said it in Russian, our President is coming to town in Russian.

Mr. Jenner. And you gave us his response yesterday but you might do it again.

Mrs. Paine. He said "Uh, yeah" and brushed on by me, walked on past.

Mr. Jenner. Did he have an attitude of indifference?

Mrs. Paine. It was clearly both indifference and not wanting to go on and talk, because he moved away from me on into the kitchen.

Mr. Jenner. He went into your kitchen. What did you do?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall specifically.

Mr. Jenner. We are anxious to follow minute by minute, to the extent possible, all the movements of which you had any knowledge of Lee Oswald on this late afternoon and throughout the evening. Did Lee Oswald remain in your presence right at this time when you entered the house? If so, how long? You had this short conversation. Did he leave your presence then and go to some other part of your home?

Mrs. Paine. He might have gone to some other part of the home. He didn't leave the house to my recollection.

Mr. Jenner. I didn't mean to imply that, only whether he remained in the general area in which you were in your home?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall.

Mr. Jenner. Did he pass from your sight?

Mrs. Paine. Probably.

Mr. Jenner. Before you guess about it, give us your best recollection.

Senator Cooper. Tell what you remember.

Mr. McCloy. Yes; just in your own words tell us what your best recollection of this afternoon was without second to second sequence.

Mrs. Paine. Clearly just having come from the grocery store I put the bags down in the kitchen and unpacked them, put them away, started supper.

Mr. Jenner. Did you have any sense that Lee Oswald was in and about the inside of the house while you were doing this?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Do you have a recollection that he did not go out into the yard during this period?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall. If he did, it would have been the back. It would have been unusual for him to go in the front yard.

Mr. Jenner. Now you were preparing your dinner in your kitchen, were you not?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And does the entrance to your garage—is there an entrance to your garage opening from your kitchen into the garage?

Mrs. Paine. There is an entrance to the garage from the kitchen; yes.

Mr. Jenner. And one of the exhibits we qualified this morning is a picture of that area of your home, is it not?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Your answer was yes?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. At anytime while you were preparing dinner was Lee Oswald in the garage?

Mrs. Paine. No.

59 Mr. Jenner. And you were aware of that fact, were you?

Mrs. Paine. That is my best recollection that he was not in the garage while I was preparing dinner.

Mr. Jenner. Do you know where he was while you were preparing dinner?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall specifically.

Mr. Jenner. Did you have occasion to look into your garage area at anytime during the period you were preparing dinner?

Mrs. Paine. Not that I recall.

Mr. Jenner. Where was Marina during the period you were preparing dinner?

Mrs. Paine. I'd have to guess.

Senator Cooper. Just tell what you know.

Mr. Jenner. Tell what you know first.

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall specifically.

Mr. Jenner. Do you have a recollection with respect to whether she was inside the house or outside the house?

Mrs. Paine. I recall that she was inside the house.

Mr. Jenner. And where was the child June with respect to whether she was inside or outside the house?

Mrs. Paine. She was inside.

Mr. Jenner. Having located Marina and the Oswald daughter inside your home, does that refresh your recollection as to whether Lee was also inside the house?

Mrs. Paine. As far as I remember, he was also inside the house.

Mr. Jenner. Was he playing with his daughter?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall.

Mr. Jenner. How long did it take you to prepare dinner?

Mrs. Paine. Probably half an hour.

Mr. Jenner. I am unaware of the shades of evening and night in Texas. By the time you had completed dinner had night fallen or was it still light?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall.

Mr. Jenner. What time does nightfall come in Texas in November, late November?

Mrs. Paine. I would say between 7 and 7:30.

Mr. Jenner. I shouldn't have been as broad as I was. I meant to locate it in Irving, Tex., rather than Texas generally. About 7:30?

Mrs. Paine. Between 7 and 7:30. I don't know exactly.

Mr. Jenner. When did you sit down for dinner?

Mrs. Paine. I suppose around 6:30.

Mr. Jenner. Is that your best recollection?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall specifically.

Mr. Jenner. Was it still light outside, natural light?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Did Lee Oswald join you for dinner?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; he did.

Mr. Jenner. And how long did dinner take?

Mrs. Paine. Perhaps half an hour.

Mr. Jenner. Did he remain in your presence during all of the dinner period?

Mrs. Paine. Either there or in the living room.

Mr. Jenner. At anytime during the dinner period, did Lee Oswald leave your home?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. You have a firm recollection of that?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Did Marina?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. At anytime during that period did Lee Oswald enter the garage area?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. Did Marina?

Mrs. Paine. Not to my recollection.

Mr. Jenner. Did you?

60 Mrs. Paine. The deepfreeze is in the garage. I don't recall having gone, but I go all the time for goods for the baby, for my little boy.

Mr. Jenner. And did you use anything from the deepfreeze normally, in connection with the preparation of an evening meal?

Mrs. Paine. I could have gone out then too.

Mr. Jenner. Though you don't recall it specifically, it is possible that you went into the garage.

Mrs. Paine. It is possible.

Mr. Jenner. Garage area.

Senator Cooper. But you don't remember?

Mrs. Paine. I don't remember. This is something I do as habit.

Mr. Jenner. It is so much habit that you don't single it out?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. In any event, if you entered the garage, it was pursuant to a normal practice of preparing dinner and not because you were seeking to look for something out of the ordinary?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. Or that your attention was arrested by something out of the ordinary?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. After the dinner hour or half hour, whatever it took, what did you do? Let's take say the 1-hour period following your dinner?

Mrs. Paine. I was busy putting my children to bed.

Mr. Jenner. Where were you located during that period of time?

Mrs. Paine. I normally read them a story in the bedroom which is the back bedroom on the north side.

Senator Cooper. Did you do it that evening?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Senator Cooper. Not normally but do you remember that you did it?

Mrs. Paine. I am certain I read them a story.

Senator Cooper. What?

Mrs. Paine. I am certain I read them a story. Whether they also had a bath that night I can't remember.

Mr. Jenner. Now being in your children's bedroom, which I take it was also your bedroom——

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. That would be the rear portion of your home at the corner?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. When you were in that room, what can you see with respect to other portions of your home?

Mrs. Paine. The view from the bedroom door.

Mr. Jenner. Looking into what?

Mrs. Paine. Looking west looks into the kitchen-dining area right past the doorway entrance to the garage.

Mr. Jenner. Can you see into the living room area of your home?

Mrs. Paine. From that doorway you can; yes.

Mr. Jenner. If you stand in the doorway, I take it you can do so.

Mrs. Paine. But sitting on the bed reading a story; no.

Mr. Jenner. But if you stood in the middle of the room and looked out that doorway from your bedroom, you would look into the kitchen area, not into the living room area?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. How long did you remain in your bedroom putting your children to bed?

Mrs. Paine. That process can take as much as an hour and often does.

Mr. Jenner. Give us your very best recollection of how long it took this evening?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall specifically how long.

Mr. Jenner. Is it your recollection that you pursued your normal course in getting them to bed. You read a story, I take it, did you?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

61 Mr. Jenner. And you undressed the children and placed them in the crib or bed and you say that normally takes approximately an hour?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And you remained in the bedroom during all of that 1 hour period?

Mrs. Paine. Well, I wouldn't be certain of that; no. I also prepare a bottle which involves going to the kitchen, and heating milk. I also chase my children. They don't always just stay in the bedroom.

Mr. Jenner. Did you see Lee Harvey Oswald either in or about your home from time to time during this hour period that you were preparing your children for sleep that evening?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall specifically except that I was aware he was in the home.

Senator Cooper. How would you be aware he was in the home?

Mrs. Paine. I would have noticed it if he had gone out the door it seems to me, out the front door. One can easily hear, and that would be an unusual thing.

Mr. Jenner. Why would it be unusual?

Mrs. Paine. Well, he never did go out the front door in the evening.

Mr. Jenner. Once he entered your home his normal practice was to stay inside?

Mrs. Paine. Was to turn on the television set and sit.

Mr. Jenner. Did he turn on the television set?

Mrs. Paine. I don't believe he watched television that evening.

Mr. Jenner. Could you tell us of any awareness on your part of his presence in the home, that is you were definitely conscious that he remained inside the house?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And was not out in the yard?

Senator Cooper. How would you know that?

Mrs. Paine. It is a small house. You can hear if the front door or the back door opens. But I can't be absolutely certain.

Senator Cooper. Is what you are saying that you don't remember, or rather that you don't remember that the front door or the back door did open?

Mrs. Paine. That is right. I am also saying there is very little about that evening that stood out as unusual. I have tried to say what I could think of that did stand out as unusual. I think the rest melds together with other evenings which were similar.

Senator Cooper. I don't want to interrupt you but I think she has got to tell what she remembers that evening.

Mr. McCloy. Yes. I think without the meticulous minute by minute, just say what it is.

Senator Cooper. If you don't remember, you don't remember.

Mrs. Paine. I am sorry.

Mr. McCloy. You can't break it down into sequence that far back?

Senator Cooper. Just tell what you remember.

Mr. Jenner. Go ahead and tell us, Mrs. Paine, the course of events that evening, with particular reference to what we are interested in, what Lee Oswald did and where he was during the course of that evening.

Mrs. Paine. I have already said that after I had my children in bed, I went to the garage to work.

Mr. Jenner. Was it now nighttime?

Mrs. Paine. It was now dark, I recall about 9 o'clock. I noticed that the light was on.

Mr. Jenner. Was the door to the garage open?

Mrs. Paine. No; it was closed.

Mr. Jenner. It was closed. And you noticed the light on when you opened the door.

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Had the light been on at anytime to your knowledge prior to that?

Mrs. Paine. Not that evening; no.

62 Mr. Jenner. When entering and leaving the garage during the course of your preparing dinner, to your recollection, was there any light on at that time?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. You didn't turn the light on at anytime up to this moment of which you speak?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Senator Cooper. Had you been in the garage that evening before the time that you found the light on?

Mrs. Paine. If I had only in this course of habit which also included if it was dark, flipping the switch on and flipping it off.

Senator Cooper. You don't remember if you did that or not before.

Mrs. Paine. Specifically, no.

Mr. McCloy. She said she might have been.

Mr. Jenner. Is that a hand switch?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. You must trip it. Where is the switch located, in the kitchen or in the garage?

Mrs. Paine. The switch is in the garage.

Mr. Jenner. Mr. Chairman, the witness has before her Commission Exhibit 435, which is a picture of her home, looking through the door leading to the garage from the kitchen. Is the light switch shown in that picture?

Mrs. Paine. No; it is not.

Mr. Jenner. And why is it not shown?

Mrs. Paine. The light switch that turns on the light in the garage is on the interior of the garage approximately through the wall from the switch you see in the picture, which lights the kitchen, or the dining area overhead light.

Mr. Jenner. And the switch that is shown in the picture, is it to the right of the doorjamb?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. And rather high?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Placed high, and on the picture it is shown as having, oh, is that a white plastic plate?

Mrs. Paine. It is exactly.

Mr. Jenner. And the switch that lights the garage light is directly opposite on the other side of the wall inside the garage?

Mrs. Paine. That is my recollection; yes.

Mr. Jenner. Now directing your attention to Commission Exhibit 429, that is a picture, is it not, of the garage interior of your home taken from the outlet door of the garage and looking back toward the kitchen?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Is that correct? And does that show the doorway from the garage into your kitchen?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. In other words, the opposite side of the wall, which is shown in Commission Exhibit 435?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And are you able to locate the light switch on Commission Exhibit 429 which is the garage interior exhibit? That is, can you see the switch?

Mrs. Paine. No; I am not certain I can. This is something else.

Mr. Jenner. I point out to you the configuration which is halfway down the garage doorjamb outline.

Mrs. Paine. Right next to the top surface of the deepfreeze.

Mr. Jenner. Yes. Is that the light switch?

Mrs. Paine. I thought it was higher.

Senator Cooper. You know there is a light switch there, don't you?

Mr. McCloy. There is a light switch there.

Mrs. Paine. I know I don't pull the string which is there clearly in the picture.

Mr. Jenner. You step down into the garage do you, or is it at the kitchen floor level?

63 Mrs. Paine. Are you still asking?

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mrs. Paine. No; you don't step down, perhaps 3 inches all together.

Mr. Jenner. The floor of the garage and the floor of the kitchen are at a level?

Mrs. Paine. Approximately at a level.

Mr. Jenner. Why did you enter the garage on that occasion?

Mrs. Paine. I was about to lacquer some children's large blocks, playing blocks.

Mr. Jenner. These are blocks that you had cut at some other time?

Mrs. Paine. I had cut them on the saw in the garage; yes; previously.

Mr. Jenner. Proceed.

Representative Ford. Mr. Jenner, may I ask a question there?

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Representative Ford. Some people have a habit of turning lights on and off again regularly. Others are a little careless about it. Would you describe your attitude in this regard?

Mrs. Paine. I am definitely a person with the habit of turning them off.

Representative Ford. This is a trait that you have?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Representative Ford. Now, if you were to go out from the kitchen to the garage, is it easy for you as you go out the door to turn the light on?

Mrs. Paine. And off; yes.

Representative Ford. It is very simple for you to do so?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Representative Ford. Both going out and coming in?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Representative Ford. And as you go out on your right or left?

Mrs. Paine. It is on my left as I go out of the garage.

Representative Ford. And as you come in from the garage to the kitchen it is on your right.

Mrs. Paine. As you come into the garage from the kitchen——

Mr. McCloy. When you are going out to the garage, on which side is it?

Mrs. Paine. It is on my right.

Mr. McCloy. On your right. Coming out from the garage to the kitchen it is on your left?

Mrs. Paine. That is what he said.

Mr. McCloy. You said it just the opposite, I think.

Representative Ford. I thought I asked the question and she responded in the reverse.

Mr. McCloy. Maybe.

Representative Ford. And it surprised me a little bit. The record may show two different responses there.

Mr. Jenner. Could we recover that now?

Mrs. Paine. The switch is on the west doorjamb of that door between the two rooms.

Mr. Jenner. Perhaps that may help, Mrs. Paine. When you are in the kitchen about to enter the garage, the doorway from the kitchen to the garage, and you are going to enter from the kitchen into the garage, where is the switch with respect to whether it is on your right side or your left side?

Mrs. Paine. Just coming into the garage it is on my right side.

Mr. Jenner. That is leaving your kitchen entering the garage it is on your right side. Now when you are in the garage and you are about to enter the kitchen, the switch then is on your left? Is that correct?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Representative Ford. That clarifies it. May I now ask in your observations of either Marina or Lee, were they the type that were conscious of turning light switches on or off? Was this an automatic reaction? Were they careless about it? What was their trait if you have any observation?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall any other time that the garage light had been left on, and I would say certainly I saw enough of Marina to be able to state what I thought would be a trait, and she would normally turn off a light when she was done, in the room.

64 Representative Ford. She had the normal reaction of turning a light off if she left a room?

Mrs. Paine. Her own room. Now you see most of the rooms—if she was the last one in the room she would turn it off; yes; going to bed or something like that she certainly would turn it off.

Mr. Jenner. Of course if she was going to bed she would turn the light off. But when she was leaving the room, was it her tendency to turn off the light?

Mrs. Paine. Well, the garage light is the only room in my house you leave not to come back to right away. The whole house is active all the time until bedtime. It is hard to answer.

Mr. Jenner. So the lights are on?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Representative Ford. Would you make any observation about Lee's tendencies or traits in this regard?

Mrs. Paine. I can't say I have observation as to his tendencies.

Mr. Jenner. It was your habit, however, as far as you are concerned with respect to the light in the garage to turn it off when you left the garage?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. What were your habits with respect to closing the main garage door, that is the door opening onto the street?

Mrs. Paine. That was always closed except to open just to take out the trash can.

Mr. Jenner. And though it is shown in one of the photographs as open.

Mrs. Paine. That was done for the purpose of the photograph by the FBI.

Mr. Jenner. So that normally your garage door is down?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. Was it down when you arrived?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; it was.

Mr. Jenner. At your home when you were surprised to see Lee Oswald?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; it certainly was.

Mr. Jenner. Do you have recollection whether anytime that evening of hearing the garage door being raised or seeing the garage door up?

Mrs. Paine. I have no such recollection.

Mr. Jenner. Do you have a recollection that it was down at all times?

Mrs. Paine. I wasn't in the garage.

Mr. Jenner. Well, you entered the garage did you not that evening?

Mrs. Paine. Except then; yes, at 9 or so. It was certainly down.

Mr. Jenner. It was down then?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. You say your home is small and you can hear even the front door opening. Does the raising of the garage door cause some clatter?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; it does.

Mr. Jenner. And had the garage door been raised, even though you were giving attention to your children, would you have heard it?

Mrs. Paine. If it was raised slow and carefully; no, I would not have heard it.

Mr. Jenner. But if it were raised normally?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. You would have heard it. And it is your recollection that at no time that evening were you conscious of that garage door having been raised.

Mrs. Paine. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. You had reached the point at which you said you entered the garage to, did you say, lacquer some blocks which you had prepared?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. What did you notice in the garage when you entered it to lacquer those blocks?

Mrs. Paine. The garage was as I always found it, and I went and got the lacquer from the workbench on the west side of the garage and painted the blocks on top of the deepfreeze. My motions were in the interior portion.

Mr. Jenner. That is in the area of the garage near the kitchen entrance?

Mrs. Paine. Right.

Mr. Jenner. How long were you in the garage on that occasion?

Mrs. Paine. About a half an hour.

65 Mr. Jenner. Did you leave the garage light on while you worked in the garage?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. You are definitely conscious, however, of the fact that when you entered the garage the light was on?

Mrs. Paine. I am certain of that. I thought it quite sloppy to have left it on.

Mr. Jenner. Did you make any inquiry of Marina or of Lee Oswald as to the light having been left on?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. No comment at all?

Mrs. Paine. It is my recollection that by the time I was ready to go to the garage to work, say 9 o'clock, Lee had already retired.

Mr. Jenner. Now we would like to know, tell us how you were definitely conscious that he had retired by that time?

Mrs. Paine. He was in the bedroom. Traffic between the bedroom where he was and the bathroom crosses in front of the doorway, the front of the room where I was.

Senator Cooper. Did you see him in the bedroom?

Mrs. Paine. In the bedroom?

Senator Cooper. Yes.

Mrs. Paine. No; but I'd be——

Senator Cooper. What?

Mrs. Paine. No; but I'd be fairly certain I saw him go to it.

Senator Cooper. You saw him go to it?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. You saw him passing back and forth from the bedroom to the bathroom and he had his ablutions and then returned to the bedroom to retire, is that correct?

Mrs. Paine. That is my best recollection.

Mr. Jenner. That is your definite consciousness?

Mrs. Paine. All of this was so common that I made no specific note of it.

Senator Cooper. I think you have got to tell what you remember that night. If you can't remember it, you can't remember it.

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. But you do remember him passing back and forth from the bedroom that he and Marina normally occupied when he was there, and she occupied when she was there, to the bathroom, and then back to the bedroom. You do have that recollection?

Mrs. Paine. I recall specifically the feeling that he was in the room, and this grounded no doubt in his having been back and forth as you have described.

Mr. Jenner. You remained in the garage about a half hour lacquering your children's blocks.

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. You left the garage then, did you?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; I did.

Mr. Jenner. And where did you go when you left the garage?

Mrs. Paine. To the kitchen or living room.

Mr. Jenner. Did you see anybody when you entered the kitchen or living room?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; Marina was still up.

Mr. Jenner. Did you see Lee Oswald?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. Did you see Lee Oswald anytime from that moment forward until you retired for the evening?

Mrs. Paine. I saw Lee Oswald at no time from that moment forward.

Mr. Jenner. The answer to my question is no?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. Did you speak with him or he with you at anytime from that moment forward until you retired?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. Were you conscious that he spoke to Marina at anytime from that moment forward until you retired that evening?

66 Mrs. Paine. I was not conscious that he spoke to Marina; no.

Mr. Jenner. Or she with him?

Mrs. Paine. Or she with him.

Mr. Jenner. What time that evening did you retire?

Mrs. Paine. I would guess around 11 or 11:30.

Mr. Jenner. Did Marina remain up and retire at anytime or had she retired earlier?

Mrs. Paine. It seems to me we remained up and retired at about the same time, having folded laundry on the sofa before we retired, and talked.

Mr. Jenner. Were you looking at the television while you were doing the folding?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall. I don't think so.

Mr. Jenner. Now let us return to the garage for a moment. When you were in the garage for the half hour, did you notice the blanket wrapped package you testified about yesterday?

Mrs. Paine. I don't specifically recall seeing it; no.

Mr. Jenner. You first weren't conscious of it?

Mrs. Paine. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. You didn't stumble over it.

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. It wasn't drawn to your attention in any fashion. Is that correct?

Mrs. Paine. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. Now, as you and Marina sat that evening, folding the ironing, what did you discuss?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall specifically.

Mr. Jenner. Was there any discussion that might serve to refresh your recollection, any discussion of the fact that Lee Oswald had come home or come to Irving in the first place on a Thursday afternoon, which is unusual, or that he had come home unannounced and without invitation, which also as you have testified was unusual? Wasn't there any discussion between you and Marina, speculation at least on your part as to why he was home?

Mrs. Paine. Yes, there was discussion. I can't recall exactly what time in the evening it took place but I recall the content of the discussion.

Mr. Jenner. You tell us about it.

Mrs. Paine. She suggested that he was making up the quarrel that they had had because of her attempt to reach him by telephone, and I agreed, concurred with that judgment of it.

Mr. Jenner. What was the attitude that evening?

Mrs. Paine. He was very warm and friendly.

Mr. Jenner. Was there anything unusual about his attitude and conduct that evening?

Mrs. Paine. Nothing except he went to bed a little earlier than he normally would have on a Sunday evening before work.

Mr. Jenner. Were you conscious of the fact that he was retiring a little earlier than he normally would?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And did you speculate in your mind as to why that might be?

Mrs. Paine. No. I knew that he would go to bed as early as 10 o'clock say on the Sunday evening before going to work the next day. This was just, still early.

Mr. Jenner. What was Marina's attitude toward him that evening? Was she reserved because of this quarrel?

Mrs. Paine. No. I think she felt the best thing was to pass it by and not discuss it.

Mr. Jenner. That was your impression of her?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Of her conduct.

Senator Cooper. That is just your idea about it, isn't it?

Mrs. Paine. Well, and that I saw her do exactly, that too.

Mr. Jenner. Do exactly what?

Mrs. Paine. She didn't ask him why he had come.

67 Mr. Jenner. Excuse me. You were present when Marina put a question to——

Mrs. Paine. She did not ask him.

Mr. Jenner. Oh, she did not.

Mr. McCloy. She did not.

Mr. Jenner. Oh, I am sorry.

Mrs. Paine. Certainly not in my presence.

Mr. Jenner. Do you have any impression as to how long he had been at your home prior to your driving down the street and first seeing him?

Mrs. Paine. He usually arrived from his ride with Wesley Frazier somewhere around a quarter of 5, so I guess it was a few minutes to 10 minutes.

Mr. Jenner. You arrived at your home in the neighborhood of 5:25 or 5:30. So it is your impression that he had been at your home from 10 to 15 minutes?

Mrs. Paine. No; I say from a few minutes to 10 minutes.

Mr. Jenner. A few minutes to 10 minutes. Did Marina say anything that evening of his having a package with him when he came to your home?

Mrs. Paine. No; she didn't.

Mr. Jenner. No discussion of that nature occurred?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. I am going to put a general question to you. Do you have any recollection at all of Lee Oswald actually being in the garage of your home that evening?

Mrs. Paine. I have said that I had the feeling from traffic that had preceded it that he was in the bedroom when I saw he was no longer in the rest of the house. When I saw the light was on, my distinct thought was that he had left it on. I think that was founded upon an awareness of what Marina had been doing and I suppose what he was doing.

Mr. Jenner. You say doing. You mean an awareness——

Mrs. Paine. In other words, it was common for both Marina and Lee to go to the garage, but when I saw the light was on I was certain it was Lee that had left it on.

Mr. Jenner. Rather than Marina?

Mrs. Paine. Rather than Marina.

Mr. Jenner. Because of her habit of turning off lights?

Mrs. Paine. Not only that. I feel that I—memory of what she had been doing during the time that I was also putting the children to bed. She was involved with the children.

Mr. Jenner. May we possibly do this. Did you see Marina in the garage at anytime?

Mrs. Paine. That evening?

Mr. Jenner. That evening.

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. You did not see Lee Oswald in the garage at anytime that evening?

Mrs. Paine. Did not see him in the garage; no.

Mr. Jenner. Mr. Chairman, I intend at this moment to proceed to the next day. I wondered if members of the Commission have any further questions of Mrs. Paine with respect to the afternoon or evening of November 21?

Mr. McCloy. I don't have any. I think she has covered it all. I would remind you that we have got to be leaving, Mr. Ford and I, and Senator Cooper around noon. We would like to make as much progress as we can before we go.

Mr. Jenner. That is fine. I will have completed this phase.

Senator Cooper. If you can get through the events of the 22d.

Mr. Jenner. You retired along about 11:30?

Mrs. Paine. That is my recollection.

Mr. Jenner. The evening of the 21st. Did you sleep through the night?

Mrs. Paine. Yes. I woke at 7:30.

Mr. Jenner. The children did not awaken you at anytime during the night and nothing else awakened you?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall that anything woke me; no.

Mr. Jenner. Is your recollection sufficient that you were not awakened during the night, that is your definite impression at the moment?

68 Mrs. Paine. I get up often in the night to change a diaper or cover a child, but this is a matter of habit and I don't recall whether this night contained such a getting up or not.

Mr. Jenner. You sleep with your children, do you not?

Mrs. Paine. We are in the same bedroom.

Mr. Jenner. You awakened when in the morning?

Mrs. Paine. At 7:30.

Mr. Jenner. And when you awakened, immediately after you awakened what did you do?

Mrs. Paine. When I awoke I felt the house was extremely quiet and the thought occurred to me that Lee might have overslept. I wondered if he had gotten up in time to get off around 7 o'clock because I knew he had to go to meet Wesley Frazier to catch his ride. I looked about and found a plastic coffee cup in the sink that had clearly been used and judged he had had a cup of coffee and left.

Mr. Jenner. Did you see any other evidence of his having had breakfast?

Mrs. Paine. That was all he normally had for breakfast.

Mr. Jenner. A plastic coffee cup with some remains in it of coffee?

Mrs. Paine. Instant coffee; yes.

Mr. Jenner. What was his habit with respect to his breakfast when he made his visits?

Mrs. Paine. It was very normal for him to take coffee.

Mr. Jenner. Was Marina up and about when you arose at 7:30?

Mrs. Paine. No; she was not.

Mr. Jenner. Do you have a recollection of the garage area? Was the door to the garage, the entrance to the garage from the kitchen, closed or open?

Mrs. Paine. It was closed. Would it help if I tried to narrate what happened?

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mr. McCloy. Go ahead and narrate.

Mrs. Paine. I fixed breakfast for myself and my children, turned on the television set to hear President Kennedy speak in Fort Worth, and had breakfast there. I left the house about 9 with my little girl and boy, because she had a dentist appointment, the little girl. I left the television set on, feeling that Marina might not think to turn it on, but I knew that she would be interested to see President Kennedy.

I then was gone until nearly noon, 11:30 or so, both to the dentist and on some errands following that, came back and there was coverage of the fact of the motorcade in Dallas, but there was no television cameras showing it, as you know, and Marina thanked me for having left the television set on. She said she woke up in kind of a bad mood, but she had seen the arrival of President Kennedy and Mrs. Kennedy at the airport in Dallas, and had been thrilled with this occasion and with the greeting he had received, and it had lifted her spirits.

Very shortly after this time, I had only just begun to prepare the lunch, the announcement was made that the President had been shot, and I translated this to Marina. She had not caught it from the television statement. And I was crying as I did the translation. And then we sat down and waited at the television set, no longer interested in the preparing of lunch, and waited to hear further word.

I got out some candles and lit them, and my little girl also lighted a candle, and Marina said to me, "Is that a way of praying?", and I said "Yes, it is, just my own way." And it was well over an hour before we heard definitely that the President was dead.

Mr. Jenner. How did that come to your attention?

Mrs. Paine. It was announced on the television. I think it was even still in the intervening time. It was announced on the television that the shot which was supposed to have killed the President was fired from the Texas School Book Depository Building on Elm.

Mr. Jenner. Did you communicate that to her?

Mrs. Paine. Marina at this time was in the yard hanging some clothes. I recall going out to her and telling her this.

Mr. Jenner. What did she say?

Mrs. Paine. I don't believe she said anything. I then also——

69 Mr. Jenner. Excuse me. You say "I don't believe she said anything." Is it your recollection?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall anything at all that she said.

Mr. Jenner. Would you——

Mr. McCloy. You told her that you had heard over the television?

Mrs. Paine. I heard that the shot had been made——

Mr. McCloy. Coming from the Texas School Book Depository?

Mrs. Paine. Schoolbook depository, and I believe I also said I didn't know there was a building on Elm.

Senator Cooper. Why did you go out to tell her, this fact?

Mrs. Paine. I felt this was terribly close, somebody working in that building had been there. I thought Lee might be able to say somewhat about what happened, had been close to the event. This was my thought, that we would know somebody who would be able to give or possibly give a first-hand——

Senator Cooper. Did you have any thought at all that Lee Oswald might have been the man who fired the shot?

Mrs. Paine. Absolutely none; no.

Mr. Jenner. Why was that, Mrs. Paine?

Mrs. Paine. I had never thought of him as a violent man. He had never said anything against President Kennedy, nor anything about President Kennedy. I had no idea that he had a gun. There was nothing that I had seen about him that indicated a man with that kind of grudge or hostility.

Mr. McCloy. But you told this to Marina because of the association of Lee Oswald with the schoolbook depository?

Mrs. Paine. Yes. I then proceeded to hang some clothes.

Mr. Jenner. She did not comment?

Mrs. Paine. She did not comment.

Mr. Jenner. Made no comment?

Mrs. Paine. That is my recollection, that she made no comment. I then helped hang the clothes. My recollection skips then to being again in front of the television listening, and it was then that we heard that the President was dead. We were both sitting on the sofa.

Mr. Jenner. Marina had come in from the yard?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. From the hanging of the clothes?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall whether we came in together or whether she preceded me into the house while I finished hanging up the clothes. But I do recall then next sitting on the sofa when the announcement was definitely made that the President was dead. And she said to me "What a terrible thing this was for Mrs. Kennedy and for the two children." I remember her words were, "Now the two children will have to grow up without the father." It was very shortly after this we were still sitting on the sofa.

Mr. McCloy. Just take a little time and compose yourself.

Mrs. Paine. My neighbor, Mrs. Roberts, came in, really I think to see if we had heard, and——

Senator Cooper. Why don't you rest a few minutes?

Mrs. Paine. I can proceed. I recall my feeling of anger with her for not being more upset, or she didn't appear to me to be, any more than reporting a remarkable news item. Then it was shortly after that that the bell rang and I went to the door and met some six officers from the sheriff's office and police station.

Mr. Jenner. Was this approximately 3:30 p.m.?

Mrs. Paine. Oh, I think it was earlier, but I wouldn't be certain. I know that we had put our children to bed. They were all taking a nap, though I am not certain. Yes, my little girl was asleep also. I cried after I had heard that the President was dead, and my little girl was upset, too, always taking it from me more than from any understanding of the situation. And she cried herself to sleep on the sofa, and I moved her to her bed, and Christopher was already asleep in his crib. June was in bed asleep.

Mr. Jenner. Was Marina emotional at all? Did she cry?

Mrs. Paine. No. She said to me, "I feel very badly also, but we seem to show that we are upset in different ways." She did not actually cry.

70 Mr. McCloy. May I go back a moment there, if I may. You said you were sitting on the sofa—that she and you were sitting on the sofa. While you were listening or looking at the television, was there any announcement over the television of a suspicion being cast at Lee?

Mrs. Paine. It had just been announced that they had caught someone in a theatre, but there was no name given.

Mr. McCloy. So up to this point there was no suggestion that Lee was involved?

Mrs. Paine. No; not until the time the officers came to the door.

Mr. McCloy. Not until the officers came?

Mrs. Paine. Do you want to ask me about that?

Mr. Jenner. Yes. Now, the officers came to the door——

Mr. McCloy. Pardon me. Were you asking a question?

Mr. Jenner. I was waiting for you.

Mr. McCloy. Senator Cooper reminded me that there were comments, apparently to the effect that somebody from that building had fired the shots. Did you hear that when you were sitting on the sofa with Marina? Did you hear that comment on the television?

Mrs. Paine. No; that was earlier.

Mr. McCloy. That was even earlier?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; before it was announced that he was dead.

Senator Cooper. But when you were all sitting there——

Mrs. Paine. It was at that point that I went out to the yard to tell her.

Senator Cooper. To tell her?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Senator Cooper. After that when you went back in and you all were sitting on the sofa and she was there, were there any other comments over the television that someone from this building had fired the shot or that any suspects from——

Mrs. Paine. You mean, someone associated with the building?

Senator Cooper. Yes.

Mrs. Paine. No; that was not said.

Senator Cooper. There was nothing else said about that?

Mrs. Paine. No; just that the shot came from the building.

Mr. McCloy. Nothing else that you heard?

Mrs. Paine. Nothing else about it.

Mr. Jenner. Mrs. Paine, you do have a definite recollection that you communicated to Marina out in the yard that the shot had come from the Texas School Book Depository?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And what did she do when you communicated that to her, apart from what she said? You told us what she said. What did she do? Did she come in the house?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall.

Mr. Jenner. Did she enter the garage?

Mrs. Paine. I don't know. I never saw her enter the garage, but my recollection is that I was outside hanging clothes after I told her this, but what I can't recall is whether she remained with me hanging the clothes or whether she went in the house.

Mr. Jenner. She might have gone into the house?

Mrs. Paine. She might have gone into the house.

Mr. Jenner. But, in any event, you do not recall her entering the garage following your advising her of the announcement that the shot had come, or was thought to have come from the Texas School Book Depository?

Mrs. Paine. I do not recall.

Senator Cooper. When you went out to tell her, was she hanging clothes?

Mrs. Paine. She was hanging clothes.

Senator Cooper. Then did you go help her, and then both of you were hanging clothes?

Mrs. Paine. I then helped her. What I can't remember is whether she remained and finished the job with me. I remember I finished, remained until they were all hung.

71 Senator Cooper. Do you remember at anytime after that whether or not you were hanging clothes alone?

Mrs. Paine. That is what I am not certain about. I could well have been.

Mr. Jenner. At anytime that afternoon, in any event, up to the time that the policeman rang your doorbell, did you observe or were you aware that Marina had entered the garage?

Mrs. Paine. I wasn't aware that she had entered, if she did.

Mr. Jenner. I take it from your testimony it is possible that Marina, after you advised her that the shot was thought to have come from this Texas School Book Depository, that she might have been inside your home while you were still out in the yard?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. And, of course, if that is so, then she could have entered the garage while she was inside your home, and you were out in the yard hanging clothes?

Mrs. Paine. And I would not have seen her; that is right.

Mr. Jenner. Now, this clothes-hanging occurred in the rear, the yard portion in the rear of your home; is that correct?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Is it possible—is there a window in the garage opening on the rear of your home on to that yard area, or is the wall blank?

Mrs. Paine. The window one can look into from the area where one hangs clothes goes to the dining area. From where I stood, I could not have seen the door entering the garage, which would be just beyond——

Mr. Jenner. You are talking about the inside door?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. First I would like to know this——

Mrs. Paine. The answer to your question is clear if you see the plan of the interior of the house. No part of the garage shows, no wall or window or any part of the garage shows from the back——

Mr. Jenner. There is no opening from the rear of the garage, is there?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. So you can't see into the garage, at least from——

Mrs. Paine. From the back of my house you can't; no.

Mr. Jenner. There are windows opening from your kitchen into the back part, into the yard, are there not?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And being in the yard, could you see when somebody passed across that window, let us say, headed for the garage area?

Mrs. Paine. No. Heading for the garage area, you would not pass across that window.

Mr. Jenner. You would not. In any event, you had no consciousness at anytime that day or afternoon of Marina having entered the garage up to the time the police came?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. Is that true of the time in the morning that you have been describing?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. At anytime from 7:30 in the morning, from the time you awakened until the time the police came, you have no consciousness that Marina was in the garage?

Mrs. Paine. No consciousness of that.

Mr. Jenner. Did you enter the garage during this period of time?

Mrs. Paine. I have no specific recollection of having done so.

Mr. Jenner. And you have given us Marina's total exclamation or response to your advising her that the shot had come from the Texas School Book Depository?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. You have recounted that your next-door neighbor, Mrs. Robert—or is it Roberts?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Came over. Was Marina present——

72 Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. When she arrived at your home? Were you girls in the living room?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Did you sit down and talk?

Mrs. Paine. No. She just came to the door to see if we had heard the news.

Mr. Jenner. She was there just a bit of the time?

Mrs. Paine. Yes. She did not come, actually, into the house.

Mr. Jenner. She did not. She stood in the doorway?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Is that correct?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And did she speak to you and to Marina?

Mrs. Paine. Well, she spoke in English, and I doubt she said much more than, "Have you heard?".

Mr. Jenner. Did Marina say anything to you for translation of Mrs. Reynolds?

Mrs. Paine. No. Roberts.

Mr. Jenner. Mrs. Roberts; while Mrs. Roberts was there?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. Learning that you girls were aware of the events up to that moment, she left and, as far as you know, returned to her home?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Now, that morning—if I may, Mr. Chairman, because of the entry of the police, that is a good cutoff point, I would like to go back to the morning for the moment, or the evening before. Mrs. Paine, did you then have what might be called some curtain rods in your garage?

Mrs. Paine. I believe there were.

Mr. Jenner. Do you have a recollection?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; they were stored in the garage, wrapped in loose brown paper.

Mr. Jenner. Is it the brown paper of the nature and character you described yesterday that you get at the market and have in a roll?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Had you wrapped that package yourself?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Now, curtain rods can be of various types. One type of curtain rod, as I remember, is a solid brass rod. Others are hollow. Some are shaped. Would you describe these curtain rods, please?

Mrs. Paine. They were a light weight.

Mr. Jenner. Excuse me; do you still have them?

Mrs. Paine. I still have them.

Mr. Jenner. All right.

Mrs. Paine. Metal rods that you slip the curtain over, not with a ring but just with the cloth itself, and they are expansion rods.

Mr. Jenner. Are they flat on one side?

Mrs. Paine. They are flat on one side; about an inch wide and about a quarter of an inch thick.

Mr. Jenner. And assume we are holding the rod horizontally, do the edges of the rod slip over?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Senator Cooper. Did you wrap these rods in the paper? Had you wrapped them?

Mrs. Paine. Sometime previously I had.

Senator Cooper. How long before?

Mrs. Paine. Oh, possibly a year.

Senator Cooper. What?

Mrs. Paine. Possibly a year.

Senator Cooper. As far as you know, they had never been changed?

Mrs. Paine. Moved about, but not changed.

Senator Cooper. Can you just describe the length?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Senator Cooper. The length of the rods, at the time you wrapped them.

73 Mrs. Paine. They would be 36 inches when pushed together.

Senator Cooper. What?

Mrs. Paine. They would be about maybe 36 inches when pushed together.

Senator Cooper. You remember wrapping them. Do you remember what the size, the length of the rods were at the time you wrapped them?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Senator Cooper. How long?

Mrs. Paine. Didn't I answer about 36 inches?

Mr. Jenner. In other words, you pushed them together so that then, they were then their minimum length, unexpanded?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. They were not extended, and in that condition they were 36 inches long?

Mrs. Paine. Something like that.

Mr. Jenner. Now, how many of them were there?

Mrs. Paine. Two.

Mr. Jenner. These were lightweight metal?

Mrs. Paine. Very. Now, there was another item that was both heavier and longer.

Mr. Jenner. In that same package?

Mrs. Paine. No; I don't think so. In another similar package wrapped up just to keep the dust off were two Venetian blinds. I guess they were not longer, more like 36 inches also, that had come from the two windows in my bedroom. I took them down to change, and put up pull blinds in their place.

Mr. Jenner. And had you wrapped them?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. How many were there?

Mrs. Paine. Two.

Mr. Jenner. And what was their length?

Mrs. Paine. I think around 36 inches. The width of these windows in the back bedroom.

Mr. Jenner. Let us return to the curtain rods first. Do you still have those curtain rods?

Mrs. Paine. I believe so.

Mr. Jenner. You believe so, or you know; which?

Mrs. Paine. I think Michael went to look after the assassination, whether these were still in the garage.

Mr. Jenner. Did you have a conversation with Michael as to whether he did or didn't look?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Why was he looking to see if the curtain rod package was there?

Mrs. Paine. He was particularly interested in the wrapping, was the wrapping still there, the brown paper.

Mr. Jenner. When did this take place?

Mrs. Paine. After the assassination, perhaps a week or so later, perhaps when one of the FBI people were out; I don't really recall.

Mr. Jenner. And was the package with the curtain rods found on that occasion?

Mrs. Paine. It is my recollection it was.

Mr. Jenner. What about the Venetian blind package?

Mrs. Paine. Still there, still wrapped.

Mr. Jenner. You are fully conscious of the fact that that package is still there?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And to the best of your knowledge, information, and belief the other package, likewise, is there?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Senator Cooper. Let me ask a question there. After the assassination, at anytime did you go into the garage and look to see if both of these packages were there?

Mrs. Paine. A week and a half, or a week later.

Senator Cooper. At any time?

74 Mrs. Paine. Did I, personally?

Senator Cooper. Have you seen these packages since the assassination?

Mrs. Paine. It seems to me I recall seeing a package.

Senator Cooper. What?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall opening it up and looking in carefully. I seem to recall seeing the package.

Senator Cooper. Both of them?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Senator Cooper. Or just one?

Mrs. Paine. Both.

Senator Cooper. Did you feel them to see if the rods were in there?

Mrs. Paine. No. I think Michael did, but I am not certain.

Senator Cooper. But you never did, yourself?

Mrs. Paine. It was not my most pressing——

Senator Cooper. What?

Mrs. Paine. It was not the most pressing thing I had to do at that time.

Senator Cooper. I know that. But you must have read after the assassination the story about Lee Oswald saying, he told Mr. Frazier, I think, that he was carrying some curtain rods in the car?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Senator Cooper. Do you remember reading that?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; I remember reading that.

Senator Cooper. Didn't that lead you—Did it lead you then to go in and see if the curtain rods were there?

Mrs. Paine. It was all I could do at that point to answer my door, answer my telephone, and take care of my children.

Senator Cooper. I understand you had many things to do.

Mrs. Paine. So I did not.

Senator Cooper. You never did do it?

Mrs. Paine. I am not certain whether I specifically went in and checked on that. I recall a conversation with Michael about it and, to the best of my recollection, things looked as I expected to find them looking out there. This package with brown paper was still there.

Mr. Jenner. By any chance, does that package appear in the photograph that you have identified of the interior of your garage?

Mrs. Paine. I think it is this that is on a shelf almost to the ceiling.

Mr. Jenner. May I get over here, Mr. Chairman?

Mrs. Paine. Along the west edge of the garage, up here.

Mr. Jenner. In view of this, I think it is of some importance that you mark on Commission Exhibit 429 what appears to you to be the package in which the curtain rods were.

Mrs. Paine. To the best of my recollection.

Mr. Jenner. Now the witness has by an arrow indicated a shelf very close to the ceiling in the rear of the garage, and an arrow pointing to what appears to be a long package on that shelf, underneath which she has written "Wrapping paper around venetian blinds"——

Mrs. Paine. "And thin."

Mr. Jenner. What is the next word?

Mrs. Paine. "Curtain rods."

Mr. Jenner. There were two packages, Mrs. Paine, one with the rods and one with the Venetian blinds?

Mrs. Paine. I can't recall. The rods were so thin they hardly warranted a package of their own, but that is rationalization, as you call it.

Mr. Jenner. You do have a recollection that those rods were a very lightweight metal?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Do you?

Mrs. Paine. Yes. They were not round.

Mr. Jenner. They were flat and slender?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. They were not at all heavy?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

75 Mr. Jenner. They were curved? Were they curved in any respect?

Mrs. Paine. They curved at the ends to attach to the bracket that held them up on the wall.

Mr. Jenner. May I use the chalk on the board, Mr. Chairman. Perhaps it might be better for you, Mrs. Paine, so I don't influence you. Would you draw a picture of the rods?

Mrs. Paine. You are looking down from the top. It attaches here, well, over a loop thing on the wall. Looking from the inside, it curves over a slight bit, and then this is recessed.

Mr. Jenner. I am going to have to have you do that over on a sheet of paper. Will you remain standing for the moment. We will give it an exhibit number. But I would like to have you proceed there. What did you say this was, in the lower diagram?

Mrs. Paine. You are looking down.

Mr. Jenner. Now, where was the break?

Mrs. Paine. The break?

Mr. Jenner. You said they were extension.

Mrs. Paine. That is right. When they are up on the window, it would be like that.

Mr. Jenner. You have drawn a double line to indicate what would be seen if you were looking down into the U-shape of the rod?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. The double line indicates what on either side?

Mrs. Paine. That the lightweight metal, white, turned over, bent around, something less than a quarter of an inch on each side.

Mr. Jenner. Now, would you be good enough to make the same drawing. We will mark that sheet as Commission Exhibit No. 449 upon which the witness is now drawing the curtain rod.

(Commission Exhibit No. 449 was marked for identification.)

Mr. Jenner. While you are doing that, Mrs. Paine, would you be good enough when you return to Irving, Tex., to see if those rods are at hand, and some of our men are going to be in Irving next week. We might come out and take a look at them, and perhaps you might surrender them to us.

Mrs. Paine. You are perfectly welcome to them.

Mr. Jenner. Would you in that connection, Mrs. Paine, do not open the package until we arrive?

Mrs. Paine. I won't even look, then.

Mr. Jenner. All right. Now, would you mark "A" in the upper elevation and "B" in the lower elevation. The elevation in the drawing you have indicated as "A" is a depiction of what?

Mrs. Paine. The curtain rod, as you might look at it from the top when it is hanging in its position, when it is placed in position on the window.

Mr. Jenner. And "B"?

Mrs. Paine. "B" is as it might appear if you could look at it from outside the house; the window.

Mr. Jenner. While the rod was in place?

Mrs. Paine. While the rod was in place.

Mr. Jenner. You have written to the left-hand side "Place at which it attaches to wall fixture," indicating the butt end of the curved side of the rod?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And the two oblongs, each of which you have put at the ends of depiction "B," represent the upturned ends of the fixtures at each end?

Mrs. Paine. Right.

Mr. Jenner. Would you put a little line as to where the break was in the rod.

I offer in evidence, Mr. Chairman, as Commission Exhibit No. 449 the drawing that the witness has just made, and about which she has testified.

Senator Cooper. It will be admitted as part of the evidence.

(Commission Exhibit No. 449 was received in evidence.)

Mr. Jenner. Had there been any conversation between you and Lee Oswald, or between you and Marina, or any conversation taking place in your presence prior to this occasion, in which the subject of curtain rods was mentioned?

Mrs. Paine. No; there was no such conversation.

76 Mr. Jenner. Was the subject of curtain rods—had that ever been mentioned during all of these weekends that Lee Oswald had come to your home, commencing, I think you said, with his first return on October 4, 1963?

Mrs. Paine. It had not been mentioned.

Mr. Jenner. Never by anybody?

Mrs. Paine. By anybody.

Mr. Jenner. Had the subject of curtain rods been mentioned even inadvertently, let us say, by some neighbor talking about the subject, as to whether you had some curtain rods you weren't using?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. That might be loaned? I think you had testified that the curtain rods, when unextended, were 36 inches long, approximately?

Mrs. Paine. That is a guess. I would say, thinking further about it, it must be shorter than that. One went over a window that I am pretty sure was 30 inches wide, and one went over a window that was 42 inches wide, so it had to extend between these. They were identical, and had served at these different windows.

Mr. Jenner. The rods were identical in length when unextended?

Mrs. Paine. Or when fully extended; yes.

Mr. Jenner. What?

Mrs. Paine. Or when fully extended.

Mr. Jenner. Or when fully extended; yes. They could be extended to as great as 42 inches?

Mrs. Paine. At least that. I am just saying what windows they were used for.

Mr. Jenner. If the rods are still available, we will be able to obtain them?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And we will know exactly their length, extended and unextended. Now, as you think further about it, the rods when not extended, that is, when pushed together, might be but 30 inches long?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Because you recall that you have a 30-inch-wide window.

Mrs. Paine. I believe it is more that width than 36.

Mr. Jenner. Would you hold up your hands to indicate what you think the width or the length of the rods is when not extended?

Mrs. Paine. Oh, I don't recall. Maybe like this.

Mr. Jenner. Would you measure that, Mr. Liebeler, please?

Mr. Liebeler. About 28 inches.

Mr. Jenner. I intend to leave the subject of the curtain rods, gentlemen, if you have any questions.

Mr. McCloy. May I ask a question. Did the FBI question you about the curtain rods any, or the Dallas police officials?

Mrs. Paine. Not the Dallas police.

Mr. McCloy. Not the Dallas police?

Mrs. Paine. No. It is possible the FBI did. I don't recall such question.

Mr. McCloy. They didn't take any rods from the garage that you are aware of?

Mrs. Paine. You are aware what the police took. I never did know exactly what they took. I have never heard any mention of the rods having left.

Mr. McCloy. You are not conscious of the Dallas police ever talking to you about curtain rods?

Mrs. Paine. Absolutely no.

Mr. McCloy. But possibly some member of the FBI did?

Mrs. Paine. Possibly. I can't recall.

Mr. McCloy. You can't recall?

Mr. Jenner. Did you ever mention to the FBI anything, or anybody else up until recently, the existence of the curtain rods about which you have now testified?

Mrs. Paine. I have already said Michael and I discussed it.

Mr. Jenner. When?

Mrs. Paine. A week or two after the assassination would be my guess.

Mr. Jenner. And did you discuss those particular curtain rods about which you have now testified?

77 Mrs. Paine. We were particularly interested in seeing if the wrapping paper that we used to wrap these things was there, and it was. I recall that.

Representative Ford. Did Lee Oswald know where you kept this roll of wrapping paper?

Mrs. Paine. To the best of my knowledge, he did not know where I kept it. I had never wrapped something when he was around. Neither he nor Marina had ever asked to use this paper or the string that I had.

Representative Ford. Where did you keep it? I don't recall precisely.

Mrs. Paine. I can be very clear. There is a picture here of a large secretary desk on Commission Exhibit No. 435. It is in the bottom drawer, you see, in that desk. This is not the secretary desk upon which——

Mr. Jenner. The note was found?

Mrs. Paine. The note was found.

Representative Ford. You kept it in the lower drawer?

Mrs. Paine. Along with some gum tape and string.

Representative Ford. And this is the section shown on Commission Exhibit 435?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. Mr. Reporter, you caught the measurement by Mr. Liebeler, 28 inches. Mrs. Paine, what is your best recollection as to how many curtain rods there were?

Mrs. Paine. Two, I am certain.

Mr. Jenner. Just two? And you wrapped the package yourself, did you?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. When you and Michael undertook your discussion about curtain rods, did you or did he open up this package?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall.

Mr. Jenner. Is it your present best recollection that as far as you know, the package, as far as wrapping is concerned, is in the same condition now as when you wrapped it initially?

Mrs. Paine. Certainly very similar.

Senator Cooper. What was the answer?

Mrs. Paine. Certainly very similar. I don't recall making any change.

Mr. Jenner. Is there a possibility that the package was unwrapped at anytime?

Mrs. Paine. In connection with this inquiry of Michael's; yes.

Mr. Jenner. You think he might have but you don't know.

Mrs. Paine. Or I might have. I don't recall. I recall that it wasn't something that interested me as much as the other things I had to get done.

Mr. Jenner. But the rods about which you have testified as far as you know are on the shelf in your garage at your home?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Do you recall whether when the FBI discussed this subject with you, if you can recall that, that you advised the FBI of these particular curtain rods?

Mrs. Paine. I am not perfectly certain that they discussed it with me.

Mr. Jenner. You just have no recollection of any interview with the FBI on this particular subject?

Mrs. Paine. It seems to me they brought it up, but I don't recall the content nor whether they went out. I certainly think I would remember if I had gone out to the garage with an FBI representative.

Mr. Jenner. But you do not?

Mrs. Paine. But I do not remember such an occasion.

Mr. Jenner. Unless the members of the Commission have any further questions with respect to the curtain rods, I will return to the afternoon.

Senator Cooper. I want to ask just two questions. Before the assassination, did you know where the package with the curtain rods in it was situated within the garage?

Mrs. Paine. I gave it no attention but yes, it is my impression that I did go out to see if things were where I expected to find them. They were wrapped in brown paper, the curtain rods and venetian blinds. And found things there. I don't recall that I looked into the package.

Mr. Jenner. You did find the package?

78 Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. What was the size of the package in length and width if you can remember at the time you wrapped it?

Mrs. Paine. I suppose about like this, not closed but just wrapping paper folded over.

Mr. Jenner. Would you hold your hands there please.

Mrs. Paine. Yes. But by no means a neat package, just enough to keep the dust off.

Mr. Liebeler. Thirty-two and a half inches.

Senator Cooper. What was the width of the package?

Mrs. Paine. Like so.

Senator Cooper. That you wrapped?

Mrs. Paine. Now I am not certain. I am really thinking now of the package with the venetian blind. I don't recall exactly the package with the rods, whether they were included in this other or whether they warranted a package of their own.

Mr. Liebeler. The witness indicated a width of approximately 7˝ inches.

Senator Cooper. I will ask one other question. The ends of the rod which are at right angles to the long surface, how long? What is their approximate size?

Mrs. Paine. Two and a half inches to three inches.

Senator Cooper. What?

Mrs. Paine. Two and a half to three inches.

Senator Cooper. All right, go ahead.

Mr. Jenner. Anyone entering your home from the outside walking up your driveway and looking in the windows, would they see anybody sitting on the sofa you have described?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. Do you sit on the sofa to look at your television set?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Would you take the ground floor plan that is before you and indicate——

Mrs. Paine. Do you want me to draw in the sofa and the television set?

Mr. Jenner. No; I just want you to put an "X" as to where the sofa is, and put a double "X" as to where the television set is. Now the opening that appears to the left of the double "X," is that a window or a door?

Mrs. Paine. That is the front door.

Mr. Jenner. And is there any window in that wall, in the living room wall.

Mrs. Paine. Practically the rest of the wall is window.

Mr. Jenner. And on this drawing it appears as a solid wall?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. The fact is that is a picture window?

Mrs. Paine. That is right. It is just your printing filled in. It is exactly like this. There it is.

Mr. Jenner. Turning to Commission Exhibit 431, the picture window is shown there, is it not?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Now it would be possible, would it not, if someone walked along the sidewalk and was intent on peering in to see if anyone is there, to see somebody sitting at the sofa looking at the television set?

Mrs. Paine. Oh, yes.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. McCloy. I am very anxious to hear your story before we leave.

Senator Cooper. I can stay here while the details are filled in.

Mr. Jenner. The police arrived and what occurred.

Mrs. Paine. I went to the door. They announced themselves as from both the sheriff's office and the Dallas Police Office, showed me at least one package or two. I was very surprised.

Mr. Jenner. Did you say anything?

Mrs. Paine. I said nothing. I think I just dropped my jaw. And the man in front said by way of explanation "We have Lee Oswald in custody. He is charged with shooting an officer." This is the first I had any idea that Lee79 might be in trouble with the police or in any way involved in the day's events. I asked them to come in. They said they wanted to search the house. I asked if they had a warrant. They said they didn't. They said they could get the sheriff out here right away with one if I insisted. And I said no, that was all right, they could be my guests.

They then did search the house. I directed them to the fact that most of the Oswald's things were in storage in my garage and showed where the garage was, and to the room where Marina and the baby had stayed where they would find the other things which belonged to the Oswalds. Marina and I went with two or three of these police officers to the garage.

Mr. Jenner. How many police officers were there?

Mrs. Paine. There were six altogether, and they were busy in various parts of the house. The officer asked me in the garage did Lee Oswald have any weapons or guns. I said no, and translated the question to Marina, and she said yes; that she had seen a portion of it—had looked into—she indicated the blanket roll on the floor.

Mr. Jenner. Was the blanket roll on the floor at that time?

Mrs. Paine. She indicated the blanket roll on the floor very close to where I was standing. As she told me about it I stepped onto the blanket roll.

Mr. Jenner. This might be helpful. You had shaped that up yesterday and I will just put it on the floor.

Mrs. Paine. And she indicated to me that she had peered into this roll and saw a portion of what she took to be a gun she knew her husband to have, a rifle. And I then translated this to the officers that she knew that her husband had a gun that he had stored in here.

Mr. Jenner. Were you standing on the blanket when you advised——

Mrs. Paine. When I translated. I then stepped off of it and the officer picked it up in the middle and it bent so.

Mr. Jenner. It hung limp just as it now hangs limp in your hand?

Mrs. Paine. And at this moment I felt this man was in very deep trouble and may have done——

Mr. McCloy. Were the strings still on it?

Mrs. Paine. The strings were still on it. It looked exactly as it had at previous times I had seen it. It was at this point I say I made the connection with the assassination, thinking that possibly, knowing already that the shot had been made from the School Book Depository, and that this was a rifle that was missing, I wondered if he would not also be charged before the day was out with the assassination.

Mr. Jenner. Did you say anything?

Mrs. Paine. No; I didn't say that.

Mr. Jenner. When the officer picked up the blanket package, did you hear any crinkling as though there was paper inside?

Mrs. Paine. No crinkling.

Mr. Jenner. None whatsoever. When you stepped on the package, did you have a feeling through your feet that there was something inside the package in the way of paper.

Mrs. Paine. Not anything in the way of paper.

Mr. Jenner. Or wrapping.

Mrs. Paine. Or anything that crinkled; no. I did think it was hard but that was my cement floor.

Mr. Jenner. But definitely you had no sensation of any paper inside?

Mrs. Paine. No such sensation.

Mr. Jenner. Of the nature or character of the wrapping paper you identified yesterday.

Mrs. Paine. No; and when he picked it up I would think such paper would rattle, but there was no such sound. Marina said nothing at this time. She was very white, and of course I judged——

Mr. Jenner. Did she blanch?

Mrs. Paine. She is not a person to immediately show her feelings necessarily. She was white. I wouldn't say that it was a sudden thing. I can't be certain that it was sudden at that point.

Representative Ford. How close was she standing to it.

80 Mrs. Paine. From here to there, about 6 feet.

Mr. Jenner. Proceed.

Mrs. Paine. The officers then said they would like me and Marina to go down to the police station, and I said well, I would seek to try to get a baby-sitter to come to stay with the children so that we might accompany them. About this time, we then left the garage as I recall, because then Michael Paine arrived at the front door. I was in the living room when he came. And I said "Did you know to come" and he said that he had heard Oswald's name mentioned on the radio, and had come over directly, for which I may say I was very glad.

Mr. Jenner. How far away from your home—where did he live?

Mrs. Paine. It would take about a half hour drive—he was working—from where he was working to come, 20 minutes perhaps.

Mr. Jenner. Do you have the address at the tip of your tongue?

Mrs. Paine. Where he works; no. I don't know the address. I know how to get to it.

Mr. Jenner. Do you know where he lived?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. What was the address?

Mrs. Paine. He lived at the Villa Fontaine Apartments, apartment 217, 2377 Dalworth.

Mr. Jenner. D-A-L-W-O-R-T-H?

Mrs. Paine. D-A-L-W-O-R-T-H, in Grand Prairie, Tex.

Mr. Jenner. Where is Grand Prairie, Tex.

Mrs. Paine. Grand Prairie is suburban to Dallas, between Dallas and Fort Worth, nearer to Dallas, and it was a location very near to where he worked.

Mr. Jenner. What distance in miles from your home?

Mrs. Paine. You measure distance in minutes in Texas; driving time. I don't know; 20 minutes to where he lived.

Mr. Jenner. All right, proceed.

Mrs. Paine. The police officers then asked if Michael would also accompany us to the police station and he said he would. I changed clothes to a suit from slacks, and went to the house of my babysitter. She has no telephone. I need to walk to her.

Mr. Jenner. Where was Marina in the meantime?

Mrs. Paine. Marina remained in the house with the children. Lynn by this time had awakened as I recall. Christopher was still sleeping and I think June was also. And I said I would walk over to my neighbors to ask if—there was something that intervened I just remembered. I first went and asked my immediate neighbor, Mrs. Roberts, if she could keep the children for a short time in the afternoon, but she was just on her way to go somewhere. She couldn't. So then I went to the home of the person I normally have for a baby-sitter. It was now after school or this babysitter would not have been there, which brings us to 3:30 perhaps. And I asked the mother if the young girl, teenage girl, could come and stay at the house. I was accompanied to the house by one of the officers. As we left the house I said "Oh, you don't have to go with me." Oh, he said, he'd be glad to. And then it occurred to me he had been assigned to go with me, and I said "come along." It was the first I have ever experienced being in the company of people who suspected me of anything, and of course that is their business.

We did arrange then for the girls to come back, one or two, I forget whether it was two of the daughters or one that came then to my house to stay with the children. As I came back, I noticed the officers carrying a number of things from the house, and I looked into the back of one of the cars. It was across the street from my house, and saw he had three cases of 78 records of mine, and I said, "You don't need those and I want to use them on Thanksgiving weekend. I have promised to lead a folk dance conference on the weekend. I will need those records which are all folk dance records and I doubt that you might get them back at that time."

And I said, "that is a 16 mm projector. You don't want that. It is mine."

And he took me by the arm and he said, "We'd better get down to the station. We have wasted too much time as it is." And I said, "I want a list of what you are taking, please." Or perhaps that was before. As much answer81 as I ever got was "We'd better get to the station." Then I evidently had made them nervous because when we got back from this car to the house, Marina wanted to change from slacks as I had already done to a dress. They would not permit her to do that. I said "She has a right to, she is a woman, to dress as she wishes before going down." And I directed her to the bathroom to change. The officer opened the bathroom door and said no, she had no time to change. I was still making arrangements with the babysitters, arranging for our leaving the children there, and one of the officers made a statement to the effect of "we'd better get this straight in a hurry Mrs. Paine or we'll just take the children down and leave them with juvenile while we talk to you."

And I said "Lynn, you may come too" in reply to this. I don't like being threatened. And then Christopher was still sleeping so I left him in the house and Lynn, my daughter, and Marina took her daughter and her baby with her to the police station, so we were quite a group going into town in the car. Michael was in one car, Marina and I and all the children were in another with three police officers as I recall. One of them spoke some Czech, tried to understand what was being said. The one in the front seat turned to me and said "Are you a Communist," and I said, "No, I am not, and I don't even feel the need of a Fifth Amendment." And he was satisfied with that. We went on then to the police station, and waited until such time as they could interview us. They interviewed Michael at one point separately.

Mr. Jenner. Separately?

Mrs. Paine. And they interviewed Marina while I was present.

Mr. Jenner. Did you interpret for her?

Mrs. Paine. They had an interpreter there, a Mr. Ilya Mamantov whom I was very glad to see. He is the son-in-law of a woman who has tutored me in Dallas, so I had met him before. I was very glad to have someone whose skill in Russian was greater than mine, and Marina had said even in the car going down to the station, "your Russian has suddenly become no good at all." She had asked me again in the car, "isn't it true that the penalty for shooting someone in Texas is the electric chair" and I said "yes, that is true."

Then at the police station——

Representative Ford. May I ask this. Was there any interrogation other than what you have mentioned by police officers in the car?

Mrs. Paine. No; none that I recall.

Representative Ford. You and Marina talked back and forth freely or to a limited degree?

Mrs. Paine. We talked back and forth freely and then she wanted me to translate to the officer, to the one who understood some Czech, to help him understand. Then in the room where we were asked questions, what I particularly recall was they wanted Marina to say what she had said in the garage to the effect that she had seen a rifle in that wrapped blanket, and she made the statement again and it was made up into an affidavit for her to sign with Mr. Mamantov making very clear the translation of each sentence, each word, and I recall her statement was to the effect that she had looked in and seen a portion of the gun, of something which she took to be the gun she knew her husband had; that she had not opened the package, but had just looked into it.

They then brought in——

Mr. Jenner. Mrs. Paine, a slight interruption.

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Was the occasion when Mrs. Oswald, Marina, made the remark of having seen a weapon inside the blanket, was that the first notice that you had of any kind or character that there was a weapon in your garage?

Mrs. Paine. That is absolutely the first. Indeed it was contrary to my expectation as I said. When the officer asked me I answered his question before I even translated it, answered it in the negative, and then translated it and found that indeed there had been a gun there.

Mr. Jenner. All right, go ahead.

Mrs. Paine. They then showed a gun, a rifle to Marina, and asked her if she could identify the gun as being her husband's.

82 She said her husband had a dark gun, dark in color, that she wasn't absolutely certain that this was the gun. She couldn't definitely recall the sight on the top of it.

Mr. Jenner. The telescope sight?

Mrs. Paine. Yes. Then I also was asked to make an affidavit which I signed, to the effect that I had heard her say in the garage that she had looked into this package and seen what she took to be a rifle she knew her husband had. It was after they had finished with this session that I went back in the same room where Michael was, and Mrs. Oswald, senior, came in, Mrs. Marguerite Oswald.

Mr. Jenner. Had you met her at anytime up to that moment?

Mrs. Paine. No. I had never met her before.

Mr. Jenner. Had you ever talked with her at anytime up to that moment?

Mrs. Paine. I had never talked with her.

Mr. Jenner. Were you advised in advance of anything that had been said that she was to come?

Mrs. Paine. No. She said she had heard on her car radio, on her way to work in the afternoon.

Mr. Jenner. What time was this about?

Mrs. Paine. She heard it?

Mr. Jenner. No; that she came?

Mrs. Paine. It was, it was certainly supper time. We had eaten no lunch.

Mr. Jenner. All right.

Mrs. Paine. And she said she heard on her car radio that Lee Oswald had been in custody in Dallas and had come over. Previously during October and November Marina had told me she regretted that Lee didn't wish to keep up contact with his mother because she thought it was only proper to tell the mother of the coming grandchild, and then she wanted to announce the birth when the baby had come but she said Lee didn't try to keep her address, and Marina didn't know how to contact her or didn't want to do so around her husband certainly. There was a warm greeting in the police station.

Mr. Jenner. Between whom?

Mrs. Paine. Between Marguerite Oswald and Marina Oswald and I recall both wept and Mrs. Marguerite Oswald exclaimed over the new baby, and then held the baby. I then also met Robert Oswald.

Mr. Jenner. When did he come with relation to when Marguerite Oswald entered?

Mrs. Paine. It seemed to me later.

Mr. Jenner. Had you met Robert Oswald at anytime up to that moment?

Mrs. Paine. No; I had not.

Mr. Jenner. Was there any discussion that had taken place during the course of the day up to that moment indicating to you that Robert Oswald might or would arrive on the scene?

Mrs. Paine. No; nothing that day about Robert at all.

Mr. Jenner. When he entered was there an indication to you at all that none of the people, in addition to yourself, was aware that he was about to—that they had any advance advice that he was going to be present?

Mrs. Paine. There was no indication of any advance advice to any of the people.

Mr. Jenner. Was there any indication to the contrary?

Mrs. Paine. I don't think anyone was really surprised that he had come.

Mr. Jenner. There was this lack of prior notice?

Mrs. Paine. Lack of prior notice. We then talked about where to go.

Mr. Jenner. Excuse me, does the "we" include your husband all the time?

Mrs. Paine. The "we" then was a group at this point of my husband, Marguerite Oswald, Marina Oswald, Robert Oswald, and myself, three children.

Mr. Jenner. Did your husband know Robert Oswald prior to this time?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. Were they introduced to each other on this occasion?

Mrs. Paine. They were in the same room and they might have been. It was agreed that Robert was to stay in a hotel. Marguerite Oswald asked if she could come out and stay with Marina at my home, and it was agreed.

83 Mr. Jenner. Was it agreed that Marina would stay at your house that night?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; certainly all her baby things were there. So, we went back there. We were taken back by police officers.

Mr. Jenner. Everybody assumed she would return back to your home?

Mrs. Paine. Oh, yes.

Mr. Jenner. Was there any discussion that would indicate any reluctance on the part of anybody that she return to your home?

Mrs. Paine. None.

Mr. Jenner. None whatsoever by anybody?

Mrs. Paine. That is correct, none whatsoever by anybody.

The police officers brought us back to my home. It was by this time dark, and I think it was about 9 o'clock in the evening. I asked Michael to go out and buy hamburgers at a drive-in so we wouldn't have to cook, and we ate these as best we could, and began to prepare to retire. We talked. I have a few specific recollections of that period that I will put in here.

Just close to the time of retiring Marina told me that just the night before Lee had said to her he hoped they could get an apartment together again soon. As she said this, I felt she was hurt and confused, wondering how he could have said such a thing which indicated wanting to be together with her when he must have already been planning something that would inevitably cause separation. I asked her did she think that Lee had killed the President and she said, "I don't know." And I felt that this was not something to talk about really anyway. But my curiosity overcame my politeness.

Now, back a little bit to the time in the living room, Mrs. Oswald and Michael and Marina and I were all there, and Mrs. Oswald, I recall, said, I mean of course Mrs. Marguerite Oswald——

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mrs. Paine. That if they were prominent people there would be three of the lawyers down in the city jail now trying to defend her son, and coming to his aid.

She felt that since they were just small people that there wouldn't—they wouldn't get the proper attention or care, and I tried to say this was not a small case. That most careful attention would be given it, but she didn't feel that way.

Mr. Jenner. You made no impression on her?

Mrs. Paine. I made no impression on her.

Mr. Jenner. I take it——

Mrs. Paine. She made an impression on me.

Mr. Jenner. I think we would prefer if you would call her Marguerite. It would avoid confusion.

Mrs. Paine. All right. Somewhere in that evening before we retired, and after we had eaten, the doorbell rang and two men from Life Magazine appeared. I was——

Mr. Jenner. Had you had any advance notice?

Mrs. Paine. We had had no advance notice.

Mr. Jenner. Nobody did?

Mrs. Paine. Nobody did.

Mr. Jenner. You in particular and none of the others in the room?

Mrs. Paine. None of the others.

Mr. Jenner. That was your impression?

Mrs. Paine. I would be quite certain that none of the others and myself——

Mr. Jenner. At least that was your impression at the moment?

Mrs. Paine. That they had no prior information that these people might come. I will say I was not surprised that anyone of the press found his way to our door at that point. If anything, I was surprised there weren't more. Life Magazine was the only company or group to appear that evening. I permitted them to come in, and I felt that Mrs. Marguerite Oswald was interested in the possibility of their buying the story or paying for what information she and Marina might give them.

Mr. Jenner. Had that occurred to you?

Mrs. Paine. Had that occurred to me? No. But then, too, I wasn't thinking about pay for lawyers but she made that connection verbally in my presence.

84 Mr. Jenner. What connection?

Mrs. Paine. Between the need for money.

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mrs. Paine. The availability of Life Magazine and the need to pay for a lawyer.

Mr. Jenner. And she was the one who raised that subject?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; she raised it.

Mr. Jenner. For commercialization of the story?

Mrs. Paine. I recall now she raised it definitely enough that Mr. Tommy Thompson of Life called, I believe still that evening, to see if he could offer anything or what he might be empowered to offer.

Mr. Jenner. That was all instigated by her?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; very much so. I noticed that the other man, whose name I forget, had a camera and I was amazed, and I also saw he took a picture and I was amazed, he tried with a dim light in the room.

Mr. Jenner. When you say he took a picture, you don't mean he took a picture from your living room?

Mrs. Paine. He took a picture in my living room. He photographed. I saw him wind his roll.

Mr. Jenner. Thank you.

Mrs. Paine. I made the mistake I now think of turning on another light simply as an act of hostess, it was dim in the living room but I hadn't realized until later that I was making it possible for him to take a picture.

I didn't know what was best for me to do as hostess. It seemed to me that Mrs. Oswald, Sr., Mrs. Marguerite Oswald, was both interested in encouraging the Life Magazine representatives and still didn't really want her picture taken, and I had no personal objection to their being there. But I considered the Oswalds my guests and I didn't want to have the Life Magazine people there if they didn't want them. But they left fairly promptly, saying that they would come back in the morning.

Mr. Jenner. Did they say anything about your talking or not talking to any other news media representatives until they had talked with you?

Mrs. Paine. Not to me.

Mr. Jenner. Nothing of that implied?

Mrs. Paine. No. It was after this that the conversation I have already related with Marina took place, and we finished our preparations for bed. She said to me she didn't think she would sleep fairly soon and asked if she could borrow my hair dryer, she would stay up and take a shower, which she often said renewed her spirits, and I then went to bed, having given her my hair dryer. We woke perhaps something after 7 the next morning or closer to 8.

Mr. Jenner. When you say "we", who do you mean?

Mrs. Paine. The household. I think we had not yet—we pretty much woke all at once.

Mr. Jenner. Did your husband remain at your home?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; he remained at my home that night, the first time he had been there in a great long time. We were still eating breakfast or had just begun when the two Life people arrived again, this time with an interpreter, a woman doctor whose name I don't remember, and Marguerite Oswald and Marina Oswald, with her two little girls went with these two Life Magazine people to downtown Dallas for the purpose of seeing Lee, and Marguerite Oswald wanted to see that he got legal counsel immediately.

They were acting, the Life people were acting in this case as shovers, I feel, and I also thought Marguerite Oswald was hoping that something could be arranged between them, that would be financially helpful.

Mr. Jenner. Did she say anything that further stimulated your thoughts and reaction in that direction?

Mrs. Paine. Yes. I don't recall specifically but I have the clear impression that——

Mr. Jenner. From her conversation with the Life representatives?

Mrs. Paine. From her conversation. Yes. They left quite soon, I remember wishing Marina had taken more time to have more breakfast since it was going to be a trying day, and that is the last I saw her until March 9, in the evening, very recently.

85 Mr. Jenner. March 9, 1964?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Just a week or so ago?

Mrs. Paine. That is right. She left, of course, expecting to come back. She took only the immediate needs of the baby's diapers and bottle, and I fully expected her to come back later that same day. I don't really recall. I think there must have been some newsmen out then that morning, later that morning.

Mr. Jenner. To see you, at your home?

Mrs. Paine. At my home. I would be certain of that. The Houston Post—well, yes. And Michael was there also, at least in the morning as I recall, and talked with these people.

I believe the local paper, Irving News, was there. Then Michael, as I recall, went to do something related to his work or had to do some shopping.

Mr. Jenner. He left your home?

Mrs. Paine. Anyway, in the afternoon I was the only one there and I felt I had better get some grocery shopping done so as to be prepared for a long stay home just answering the doorbell and telling what I could to the people who wanted to know. I was just preparing to go to the grocery store when several officers arrived again from the Dallas Police Office and asked if they could search.

This time I was in the yard, the front yard on the grass, and asked if they could search and held up their warrant and I said, yes, they could search. They said they were looking for something specific and I said, "I want to go to the grocery store, I'll just go and you go ahead and do your searching."

I then went to the grocery store and when I came back they had finished and left, locking my door which necessitated my getting out my key, I don't normally lock my door when I go shopping.

Representative Ford. Did you take your children shopping?

Mrs. Paine. Always. Then about 3:30 or 4 I got a telephone call.

Mr. Jenner. The phone rang?

Mrs. Paine. The phone rang; I answered it.

Mr. Jenner. Did you recognize the voice?

Mrs. Paine. I recognized the voice but I don't recall what he said?

Mr. Jenner. What did the voice say?

Mrs. Paine. The voice said: "This is Lee."

Mr. Jenner. Give your best recollection of everything you said and if you can, please, everything he said, and exactly what you said.

Mrs. Paine. I said, "Well, Hi." And he said he wanted to ask me to call Mr. John Abt in New York for him after 6 p.m. He gave me a telephone number of an office in New York and a residence in New York.

Mr. Jenner. Two telephone numbers he gave you?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. One office and one residence of Mr. John Abt. Did he say who Mr. John Abt was?

Mrs. Paine. He said he was an attorney he wanted to have.

Mr. Jenner. Represent him?

Mrs. Paine. To represent him. He thanked me for my concern.

Mr. Jenner. Did he tell you or ask you what you were to do or say to Mr. Abt if you reached him?

Mrs. Paine. I carried the clear impression I was to ask him if he would serve as attorney for Lee Oswald.

Mr. Jenner. All right.

Have you given the substance of the conversation in as much detail, of the entire conversation, as you now can recall?

Mrs. Paine. There is a little more that is——

Senator Cooper. Why don't you just go ahead and tell it as you remember it, everything that he said and you said?

Mrs. Paine. I can't give the specific words to this part but I carry a clear impression, too, that he sounded to me almost as if nothing out of the ordinary had happened.

I would make this telephone call for him, would help him, as I had in other ways previously. He was, he expressed gratitude to me. I felt, but did not86 express, considerable irritation at his seeming to be so apart from the situation, so presuming of his own innocence, if you will, but I did say I would make the call for him.

Then he called back almost immediately. I gather that he had made the call to me on the permission to make a different call and then he got specific permission from the police to make a call to me and the call was identical.

Mr. Jenner. This is speculation?

Mrs. Paine. This is speculation but the content of the second call was almost identical.

Mr. Jenner. The phone rang?

Mrs. Paine. He asked me to contact John Abt.

Mr. Jenner. He identified himself and he asked you to make the call?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. What did he say?

Mrs. Paine. He wanted me to call this lawyer.

Mr. Jenner. Did you express any surprise for him to call back almost immediately giving you the same message that he had given previously?

Mrs. Paine. I think somebody must have said, that the officers had said he could call, make this call.

Mr. Jenner. Did you say anything about the fact that he had already just called you about the same subject matter?

Mrs. Paine. He may have added.

Mr. Jenner. Did you, please?

Mrs. Paine. No. I was quite stunned that he called at all or that he thought he could ask anything of me, appalled, really.

Mr. McCloy. Did he say he was innocent, or did he just have this conversation with respect to the retention of a counsel?

Mrs. Paine. That is all.

Mr. Jenner. At no time during either of those conversations did he deny that he was in any way involved in this situation?

Mrs. Paine. He made no reference to why he was at the police station or why he needed a lawyer.

Mr. Jenner. He just assumed that you knew he was at the police station, did he?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. That was your impression?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. He didn't say where he was?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. He just started out saying what you now say he said?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. But in no respect did he say to you that he was entirely innocent of any charges that had been made against him?

Mrs. Paine. He did not say that.

Mr. Jenner. Did he mention the subject at all of the assassination of the President or the slaying of Officer Tippit?

Mrs. Paine. No; he did not.

Mr. Jenner. What you have given is your best recollection of the entire conversation?

Mrs. Paine. That is correct.

Representative Ford. This was Saturday afternoon, November 23?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Representative Ford. About what time?

Mrs. Paine. Four, perhaps in the afternoon.

Representative Ford. Had you seen him the day before?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. McCloy. Who was in the house with you when that call came in?

Mrs. Paine. Just my children.

Mr. McCloy. Just your children.

Representative Ford. While you were shopping and after the officers had come with a warrant, they went in the house, no one was in the house?

87 Mrs. Paine. For a portion of the time they were looking, no one was in the house.

Representative Ford. They were there alone?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. McCloy. Did they indicate—were they still there when you got back?

Mrs. Paine. No; they were not. Remember the door was locked.

Mr. McCloy. Yes; the door was locked, that is what I gather. Do you know what they took on this occasion, or did they tell you what they were coming for?

Mrs. Paine. No; I do not. Before I left they were leafing through books to see if anything fell out but that is all I saw.

Mr. McCloy. All right.

Mrs. Paine. In this interim then, I suppose I talked to some more news people but I want to get to the next important point which was that Lee called again.

Mr. Jenner. A third time?

Mrs. Paine. I really call the first two one, but it was twice dialed.

Mr. Jenner. Fix the time, please.

Mrs. Paine. It was around 9:30 in the evening.

Mr. Jenner. Who was home? Was your husband there on that occasion?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall.

Mr. Jenner. Was anyone else other than your children and yourself in your home at the time of the receipt of the call in the evening?

Mrs. Paine. It could only have been Michael. I would remember someone else.

Mr. Jenner. But you have no definite recollection that even he was present?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. All right. The phone rang, you answered it.

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Did you recognize the voice?

Mrs. Paine. I recognized the voice.

Mr. Jenner. Whose was it?

Mrs. Paine. It was Lee Oswald's.

Mr. Jenner. What did he say and what did you say?

Mrs. Paine. He said, "Marina, please," in Russian.

Mr. Jenner. Please, Mrs. Paine, did he speak to you in English in the conversations in the afternoon or in Russian?

Mrs. Paine. He spoke in English the entire conversation.

Mr. Jenner. The two in the afternoon?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Now, however, he resorted to Russian, did he?

Mrs. Paine. Yes. He planned to speak to Marina.

Mr. Jenner. I beg your pardon?

Mrs. Paine. He planned to speak to Marina, and this opening phrase was one he normally used calling as he had many previous times to speak to her.

Mr. Jenner. He was under the assumption, you gathered, that Marina was in your home?

Mrs. Paine. He certainly was.

Mr. Jenner. All right.

Mrs. Paine. And I would be fairly certain that I answered him in English. I said she was not there, that I had a notion about where she might be, but I wasn't at all certain. That I would try to find out. He said, he wanted me to—he said he thought she should be at my house. He felt irritated at not having been able to reach her. And he wanted me to——

Mr. Jenner. Did he sound irritated?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; he sounded just a slight edge to his voice. And he wanted me to deliver a message to her that he thought she should be at my house.

Mr. Jenner. And he so instructed you?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. That is what he said?

Mrs. Paine. Yes. That was so far as I remember, the entire conversation.

Mr. Jenner. What response did you give to his direction?

Mrs. Paine. I said I would try to reach her.

88 Mr. Jenner. His direction——

Mrs. Paine. And tell her his message.

Mr. Jenner. All right.

Mrs. Paine, in the meantime, had you sought to reach John Abt?

Mrs. Paine. I had, after 6 o'clock, thank you. I had dialed both numbers and neither answered.

Mr. Jenner. Neither answered. Was there any conversation between you and Lee Oswald in the evening conversation to which you reported to him your inability to reach Mr. Abt?

Mrs. Paine. I do not specifically recall.

Mr. Jenner. Or the subject of Mr. Abt at all?

Mrs. Paine. I don't want to get into rationalization. I can judge that something was said but I do not recall it specifically.

Mr. Jenner. Now, have you given the full extent of that conversation?

Mrs. Paine. To the best of my recollection.

Mr. Jenner. At anytime during that conversation with Lee Harvey Oswald did he assert or intimate in any form or fashion his innocence of any charges against him?

Mrs. Paine. No; he did not.

Mr. Jenner. Was the assassination mentioned at all?

Mrs. Paine. No; it was not.

Mr. Jenner. Was the shooting or murder of Officer Tippit mentioned?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. You have given everything that was said in that conversation as best you are able to recall it at the moment?

Mrs. Paine. That is right. I then tried the only thing I knew to do, to try to reach Marina. I had heard one of the FBI agents try to find her when he was at my home, had dialed the hotel where the Life people were staying, and asked to be put in contact with Marina and was told, I judge, because he repeated it and wrote it down. Executive Inn. Here I am turning detective in this small way.

Mr. Jenner. You also mentioned now for the first time there were FBI agents in your home?

Mrs. Paine. That day.

Mr. Jenner. During the course of the day?

Mrs. Paine. Yes. I then dialed——

Mr. Jenner. You shook your head, did you shake your head in the affirmative?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; there were FBI agents in my home during the day. One I recalled made this telephone call. I was waiting to hear from Marina to see if she wanted to talk with me. I had no desire to press her or to attempt to reach her unless she wanted to reach me, but then with this message, I went ahead and dialed the Executive Inn and asked for Tommy Thompson, and Marguerite Oswald answered, and I said I would like to talk to Marina, and she said, "Well, Marina is in the bathroom," and I said to Marguerite that Lee had called me, that he wanted me to deliver a message to Marina, that he wished for her to be at my home, and Marguerite Oswald said, "Well, he is in prison, he don't know the things we are up against, the things we have to face. What he wants doesn't really matter," which surprised me. And again I asked to speak to Marina and waited until I did speak to her and delivered the same message in Russian to her but there was no further——

Mr. Jenner. What response did Marina make to the message that you conveyed to her?

Mrs. Paine. She said she was very tired and wanted to get to bed, as I recall, and thought it was certainly best to stay there that night.

Mr. Jenner. Is that your best recollection?

Mrs. Paine. Yes. And I certainly agreed with her.

Mr. Jenner. Did she say anything in response to your delivery of Lee Oswald's message about Marina staying with you, of the possibility of her staying with you, say, the next day?

Mrs. Paine. Nothing of that nature was said. I think I remember that we did discuss whether she had seen Lee during the day, and on that occasion89 it seems to me I learned that she had seen him around noon but I may be wrong about when I learned that. I knew she had seen him.

Mr. Jenner. Either in that conversation or any other conversation with Marina that you may have had, was the subject of Lee Oswald's attitude or any comments he made mentioned?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. Nobody reported to you anything about any conversation they might or did have with Lee Oswald either on the 22d or 23d or even on the 24th of November 1963?

Mrs. Paine. No. I am of the impression I again tried the home telephone of John Abt on Sunday morning, but I am not certain, and there was no answer. That I certainly remember.

Mr. McCloy. Did you ever reach Abt?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. Did you ever attempt to report to Lee Oswald that you had been unable to reach Mr. Abt?

Mrs. Paine. Not unless such transpired in our 9:30 conversation Saturday evening, but I made no effort to call the police station itself.

Mr. Jenner. Excuse me?

Mrs. Paine. I made no effort to call the police station.

Mr. Jenner. Did you have at anytime any further conversations with Lee Oswald?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. Other than what you have now related?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. McCloy. Did you have any impression as to why he wanted Marina to come back with you? Was it in order to make her available for telephone calls from him or what?

Mrs. Paine. What is distinctly my impression is that he thought she should be available. That it was she wasn't where he could find her that irritated him rather than that he thought this was the best place for her.

Representative Ford. Did you know of Mr. Abt or was this just——

Mrs. Paine. I had never heard of Mr. Abt before.

Representative Ford. Never heard of him?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Senator Cooper. Did Marguerite Oswald explain any further, in the statement you said she made, about having too many obstacles or having obstacles or having troubles?

Mrs. Paine. Are you referring to the statement on Friday night when she was at my home?

Senator Cooper. No. I think you said a few minutes ago when she went to the hotel you called her and told her what Lee Oswald had told you to tell Marina.

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Senator Cooper. I think you said she said something about——

Mrs. Paine. "Well, he doesn't understand the things we are up against or things of this nature." What I remember most clearly is that she didn't seem to care whether he was told the truth or not.

Mr. Jenner. What?

Mrs. Paine. Well, that is perhaps a further statement, told the truth about—had it seemed to me a lack of respect on her part. She didn't care what his wishes were in the situation, in other words. And this sticks in my mind.

Mr. Jenner. Did you have any conversation with Robert Oswald on the 22d, subsequent to the time that you met him when he first come to the police station?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. Did you on the 23d of November?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. The 24th?

Mrs. Paine. I believe the only other time I saw Robert was some 3 weeks or more later when he came with two other people to pick up the rest of Marina's things.

90 Mr. Jenner. Then from the 22d of November until he came sometime in December you had no conversation with him and you had not seen him?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. You had no contact at all with him?

Mrs. Paine. That is my best recollection. Marina called me around noon on Sunday, the 24th. She said she was with the police, and, of course, this was said in Russian; I don't know whether she meant Secret Service or Irving Police or Dallas Police or what sort, but official. Her husband had already been shot at this time, so it was just after. He had been shot and I had the television on and I knew that.

Representative Ford. Did she know it?

Mrs. Paine. I am certain she did. What makes me certain I can't recall definitely. I felt that she was confining herself in her conversation to the things she just had to say.

Senator Cooper. What did she say?

Mrs. Paine. She was directing me how to find certain things she needed to have. A winter coat, things for the baby, a little purse with some money in it that she left either on top of the dresser or in a drawer in the bedroom where they had stayed.

Mr. Jenner. Did she sound less than cordial——

Mrs. Paine. Oh, no, she sounded, as I recall it, as a call from a woman who was doing her best to simply achieve the things she had to do but was under a tremendous strain.

Mr. Jenner. Was any mention made of the death of her husband?

Mrs. Paine. He was not yet dead, he had been shot but he was not yet dead.

Mr. Jenner. Was any mention made between you in this conversation of the fact that Lee Oswald had been shot?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall such.

Mr. Jenner. You didn't mention it?

Mrs. Paine. I did not tell her; no.

Mr. Jenner. Did you—it might be natural that you would express sympathy. Did you mention the subject at all, sympathetical or otherwise?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall mentioning the subject and as I say, I have this distinct feeling that she knew, and I knew she knew but what caused that, I can't identify.

Mr. Jenner. Did you have the feeling, if I may use some vernacular, that she was "under wraps" or rather she was bereft and just seeking to do——

Mrs. Paine. I had no feeling she was restraining herself from saying any particular things.

Mr. Jenner. Was under restraint?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. From some outside source?

Mrs. Paine. I had no such feeling.

Mr. Jenner. All right.

Mrs. Paine. I then, well, I should say there were one or two officers from the Irving Police Department there who were waiting to take the things that she directed——

Mr. Jenner. The police officers had already arrived at your home?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; I guess I remembered it as virtually simultaneous. I might fill in, whether it is important to your inquiry or not, the moment the television announced that Lee Oswald had been shot, an Irving Police patrol car that had been going by my house and had hesitated in front, stopped and the officer got out carrying a rifle and came into my house, closed the curtains and said he was here to protect me. I later learned that he thought Mrs. Oswald, Marina Oswald, was in the house, and he had been directed by his car radio to come in, and he then closed all the blinds and peered out. And it was in the midst of this time that Marina called, so you see the officers were there already on other business.

Mr. Jenner. The officer was in your home when you talked with Marina?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; when Marina made the call.

Mr. Jenner. Did you say anything to the officers that Marina had called when you finished that conversation?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

91 Mr. Jenner. You told them?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Did you tell them anything of the substance of the call?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; that I was to get some things and I think they had the same information separately a different way from a car radio or something at the same time, which was to put some things together to take to her. I did then pack one or two, or even three of the suit cases we talked about yesterday with baby things.

Mr. Jenner. Excuse me, Mrs. Paine. You keep referring to one or two or three. Were there as many as three?

Mrs. Paine. I think there were as many as three, including a very small, you might say, cosmetic case, only more, not as fancy as that. This was in her room, and I recall looking in it and seeing a family album of photographs and thinking this had better be in her hands, and included that along with clothes. I sent a childs toy, some things that I thought might be helpful to her in keeping her children happy as well as the individual items she had asked for specifically.

Mr. McCloy. Did you sense any note of estrangement at all between you and Marina when she telephoned you?

Mrs. Paine. No; the situation was strained.

Mr. McCloy. Strained because she hadn't reappeared, you mean?

Mrs. Paine. No; because her husband had been shot.

Mr. McCloy. No; I meant in your conversation with her was there any indication of any coolness between you?

Mrs. Paine. No; none I detected.

Mr. Jenner. Had you noticed any when you were in the police station?

Mrs. Paine. Oh, no.

Mr. Jenner. On the previous day?

Mrs. Paine. Oh, no.

Mr. Jenner. None at all. So that up to the moment of this telephone conversation and after you finished you had no feeling there was any estrangement, any coolness, any change in attitude on the part of Marina toward you as a person?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. McCloy. Have you felt any evidence of that since?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; and that has several parts to it and I could easily go into it now.

Mr. Jenner. I was going to ask her some general questions and Senator Cooper asked me if I would permit her just to go through the day as she has without, with a minimum of, interruptions so that you and he might, and Representative Ford, might ask some general questions before you left, so that is what I have done.

Mr. McCloy. Have you completed your report?

Mrs. Paine. That brings us to the 24th so that all else is really quite post the assassination.

Mr. McCloy. There is one thing I would like to ask before I go, if I may, and that is your husband testified that several times he had moved this blanket when it was in the garage. Can you fix the date when he was in your house and working in the garage so that he was compelled to move the blanket? When did he come to——

Mrs. Paine. He normally came on Friday evening. He would sometimes come on a Sunday afternoon, and either of those times could have been times that he had worked in the garage.

Mr. McCloy. That was all through September, October?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; September, October; yes.

Mr. McCloy. But when he had been working there he never mentioned to you any—about the existence of this blanket, package which he had been compelled to move?

Mrs. Paine. No. That didn't come up until after the assassination.

Mr. McCloy. It didn't come up until after the assassination.

Mr. Jenner. Excuse me, you are seeking to refresh your recollection from what document, please?

Mrs. Paine. I am looking at a calendar to see if there is anyway that I can tell when Michael was in the house.

92 Mr. Jenner. That is Commission exhibit number what?

Mrs. Paine. 401. But it has not helped me in refreshing my memory.

Mr. McCloy. Did you have contacts with the FBI and if so what were they before the assassination?

Mrs. Paine. An FBI agent was out, I have learned since, on November 1. I made no note of the day for myself. Sat down and talked in a relaxed way and for sometime in my living room. He said that the FBI liked to make it plain to people who have been in this country sometime, immigrated from an iron curtain country if they were experiencing any blackmail pressure from their home country, that they were welcome, and invited to discuss it with the FBI if they so choose.

Mr. Jenner. Excuse me, Marina was present?

Mrs. Paine. Marina was present.

Mr. Jenner. Did she overhear?

Mrs. Paine. I am not certain—I tried to translate some of this conversation, I am not certain how good my translation was or how well I conveyed it, or even if I conveyed it to her.

Mr. Jenner. But you do recall translating some of the conversation to her?

Mrs. Paine. I do recall translating some of the conversation indeed.

Mr. Jenner. Were you at times asked to address Marina to convey something that the FBI agent asked you to convey to her and then to translate in the reverse to him?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall anything as formal as that; no. The agent and I conversed some in English. He said, for instance, that, well he was interested in knowing if Lee Oswald lived here. I told him he did not, that he had a room in town; he asked if I knew where the room was and I said I did not. He asked if he was working and I said yes, and that he was working at the Texas School Book Depository. I haven't gone over any of this yet, it must have been in conversation with you.

Mr. Jenner. You testified to this yesterday afternoon?

Mrs. Paine. I thought I did. It sounds familiar.

Mr. McCloy. I just wanted to fix for my own benefit the number of times you saw FBI agents prior to the assassination in the company of Marina.

Mr. Jenner. There was a succeeding date?

Mrs. Paine. There was a succeeding date which again I have been told by the FBI was November 5, the first time.

Mr. Jenner. Do you recall it was a few days after the first man came?

Mrs. Paine. I recall——

Mr. Jenner. Do you recall it was in your home?

Mrs. Paine. I recall it was in the early part of the week.

Mr. Jenner. Did the same gentleman call?

Mrs. Paine. The same gentleman. He had someone else along.

Mr. Jenner. That was Mr. Hosty, the gentleman whom you now have in mind?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; I now know his name as Hosty.

Mr. McCloy. From that you knew that the FBI was still interested in the activity of Oswald?

Mrs. Paine. Oh, indeed.

Mr. McCloy. That is what I want to bring out. I think that is all I have, the questions I have.

Are you going to take up later this estrangement as to how it developed?

Mr. Jenner. Yes; I shall do that this afternoon. Representative Ford has afforded me a list of subjects upon which to make inquiry and I will do so this afternoon. Perhaps Representative Ford and Senator Cooper, you would have some questions of this lady before we adjourn for the luncheon period?

Senator Cooper. Are you going to continue this afternoon?

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Senator Cooper. I will postpone mine until this afternoon. I think Mr. McCloy and Congressman Ford have to go.

Representative Ford. Mr. Jenner, I will give you these questions and use those, if any, that are other than what you planned to use yourself. I am a little interested and I would like to hear you tell it, if I could, Mrs. Paine, how much did you know about the finances of Lee and Marina?

93 Mrs. Paine. It seemed to me they lived on a very small budget. In March of the year, at either the first or second visit with her, she told me she lived on something under, around $200 a month and this was more than they had been, because they had just finished paying a debt that they had incurred for their passage to this country and they were feeling rich on $200 a month, and I could see she was a good planner in what she bought. I could see they seldom, if ever, bought clothes for themselves or even for June. In the fall then Lee never volunteered or gave any money for the cost of her being at my house. He did on one occasion buy a few things at the grocery store for, at Marina's request, which he paid for, and on another occasion I was aware that he had given her some money to buy shoes. Did I mention this previously?

Representative Ford. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Yesterday afternoon you did; yes.

Representative Ford. But even after he gained employment at the Texas School Book Depository and was being paid he never gave her any money for her to contribute to you?

Mrs. Paine. No; he did not.

Representative Ford. Did Marina ever express any concern about this?

Mrs. Paine. Periodically she expressed her embarrassment at having to receive always from me. I tried to convince her how useful and helpful it was to me to have her conversation, but I never felt I had convinced her of that. I would have to say I am guessing that she hoped Lee would contribute. It would have been like her to think that he should.

Mr. Jenner. You gather that from the fact that she did raise the subject occasionally?

Mrs. Paine. Just from the fact that she raised her embarrassment? Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Representative Ford. I think that is all now. Mr. Jenner, you can use those to supplement or as you see fit during the interrogation this afternoon. Thank you.

Mr. McCloy. I have no more questions.

I would like to say this though, perhaps, Mrs. Paine, that you understand we are not trying to punish anybody here. We are not——

Mrs. Paine. I do understand.

Mr. McCloy. This is not a court of law. We are trying to get at the facts. Anything that you can contribute before you complete your testimony which would help us to get the facts we would like to receive, whether it be in the form of hunches or anything that you have, and you must not, I suggest that you don't, assume that merely because we haven't examined you on a particular fact that if there is anything that you do have in mind that you advance it and volunteer it for the benefit of the further security of the country.

Mrs. Paine. I have tried very hard to think of the things that I thought would be useful to you, especially as we had so little time in advance of testifying to help me recall in thinking about it.

Mr. Jenner. May I say, Mr. McCloy, that Mrs. Paine yesterday and the day before, when I had an opportunity to talk with her, she did volunteer several matters of which we had no notice whatsoever. For example, the telephone calls by Lee Harvey Oswald to her, we had not known of that. And the existence of the curtain rods.

Mr. McCloy. Anything that is in the background that you have——

Mrs. Paine. I did want to amend my testimony of yesterday in one small particular. I spoke, indeed, during the testimony I recalled this incident of Lee having gotten into my car, started it, and did the driving from my home to the parking lot where we practiced, pretty much over my objection in a sense but I did not object strongly enough. I said this was about three blocks. That would appear that it was walking distance. It was longer than that.

If you have someone out there in time, why I could go with the person to show just exactly what the distance was.

Representative Ford. What was his reaction when you objected? First, was your objection just oral, was it strong, was it admonition, of what kind?

Mrs. Paine. I felt that, and this is what you are getting at too and I think something we haven't yet discussed, is the matter of what kind of person this94 was or how I reacted to the kind of person he was. He seemed to me prickly, all sharp points and edgy, and I wished he could be more relaxed and more at ease. I didn't want to confront him with a statement of, "Lee, I didn't want you to start this car and take it yourself", so I simply said, "my father is an insurance man and he certainly would not want me to be permitting you to drive in the street when you don't even have a learner's permit yet, and I will certainly drive it home."

From the time I had first known him he had changed in his attitude toward me, I felt. I felt in the spring he expected to be disliked, that he carried a shell of proud disdain around him to protect himself from human contact, and this was falling away from him at my home.

Mr. Jenner. In the fall you mean?

Mrs. Paine. In the fall of the year, in October and November. He began to appear much more at ease, and as if he had some confidence in how he would be treated. It is a whole subject really.

Representative Ford. Can you give us a little more information on what you said to him and what he, or how he responded in this incident involving the car?

Mrs. Paine. I would say he clearly wanted to do the driving and to drive in the street. I felt that this, my not permitting him to, was one of the things that was helping to get him to the office where he could get a learner's permit, and he was eager to be driving, and to learn to drive on the street.

Representative Ford. Did he just slough off, so to speak, your admonition that he shouldn't drive?

Mrs. Paine. I didn't make it a requirement that he stop right there so he didn't have to stop.

Representative Ford. You just suggested it might be better?

Mrs. Paine. I just made it clear I was uncomfortable and on the way home I would drive.

Mr. McCloy. There is one thing we haven't had testimony about, I imagine, except implicitly.

It is alleged that Lee possessed a .38 caliber revolver. Do you, in the light of hindsight, perhaps, do you have any feeling now that he was secreting that weapon on your premises?

Mrs. Paine. I had no idea that it was there or ever was there.

Mr. McCloy. Nothing now makes you feel that it was there other than the finding of the rifle?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Representative Ford. Thank you very much, Mrs. Paine.

Senator Cooper. The Commission will recess until 2 o'clock today.

(Whereupon, at 12:20 p.m., the Commission recessed.)


Afternoon Session
TESTIMONY OF RUTH HYDE PAINE RESUMED

The President's Commission reconvened at 2 p.m.

The Chairman. We will start now. We will continue until Senator Cooper comes and then he will preside the rest of the afternoon. I will be busy with Mr. Rankin some of the time.

Mr. Jenner. Thank you, Mr. Chief Justice.

Mrs. Paine, this morning I was seeking to qualify and introduce in evidence Commission Exhibit 425, which, at the time I had it in my hand, consisted of one page. You called my attention to the fact that it was a letter dated October 14, 1963, to your mother by you in your handwriting, but that you had only given me the first page or sheet, which consists front and reverse of two pages. Then you tendered me the second page or sheet, and indicated some reluctance about the need for its use in this connection.

During the noon recess you have afforded me the possession of the second page, and my recollection is you have voiced no objection to its introduction in evidence.

95 Mrs. Paine. I have no objection to its introduction. It refers just to personal matters, but if you don't have it, you will have to wonder what it is. It is better not to wonder.

Mr. Jenner. Yes. And it does give the full context of the really pertinent statements that you made in the first two pages and to which you made allusion yesterday in your testimony.

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. I direct your attention to the second sheet, the first of which is numbered three and the reverse side numbered four.

Is the handwriting on both of those sheets yours?

Mrs. Paine. Yes it is.

Mr. Jenner. And it is the third and fourth pages of the letter to which you referred yesterday and again this morning, Commission Exhibit No. 425?

Mrs. Paine. It is.

Mr. Jenner. And that page is in the same condition now as when—that is pages three and four, as when—you dispatched the entire letter to your mother?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. Mr. Chief Justice, I offer Commission Exhibit No. 425 in evidence. It has been heretofore marked.

The Chairman. It may be admitted.

(Commission Exhibit No. 425 was marked and received in evidence.)

Mr. Jenner. There have been marked as Commission's exhibits in this series 451 and 453 to 456, a series of five colored photographs purporting to be photographs of one Curtis La Verne Crafard, taken on the 28th day of November 1963. Mrs. Paine would you be good enough to look at each of those, and after you have looked at them, I wish to ask you a question.

Mrs. Paine. I have looked at them all.

Mr. Jenner. Calling on your recollection of the physiognomy and appearance of Lee Oswald, do you detect a resemblance between the man depicted in those photographs, the exhibit numbers of which I have given, and Lee Oswald?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; I do.

Mr. Jenner. To the best of your present recollection, do you recall whether you have ever seen the person whose features are reflected on those photographs?

Mrs. Paine. No; I have not seen him.

The Chairman. May I see those, please?

Mrs. Paine. Should I say that one picture in particular struck me as looking similar to Lee?

Mr. Jenner. Yes. When the Chief Justice has concluded his examination I will have you pick out that one in particular. Thank you, sir. When you select it will you give the exhibit number which appears on the reverse side?

Mrs. Paine. Exhibit No. 453. Clearly the shoulders are broader than with Lee, but it is a quality about the face that recalls Oswald to my mind.

Mr. Jenner. And the jacket?

Mrs. Paine. And the attire.

Mr. Jenner. The attire that is shown on the exhibit which is the first one you have before you, what is the number of that?

Mrs. Paine. Exhibit 451.

Mr. Jenner. I asked you to describe Lee Oswald, his general attire. Did he normally wear a zipper jacket of the character shown on that exhibit?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And referring to the other photographs, you say that man's attire is similar to that Lee Oswald normally effected and employed.

Mrs. Paine. Yes. It certainly is.

Mr. Jenner. I offer Commission Exhibits Nos. 451 and 453 through 456.

The Chairman. They may be admitted.

(Commission Exhibits Nos. 451 and 453 through 456 were received in evidence.)

Mr. Jenner. Mrs. Paine, the Commissioners this morning, had especially directed questions to you evidencing their interest in FBI interviews.

The Chairman. Senator, will you now continue to preside please, so I will be free to work with Mr. Rankin a little this afternoon. I will remain here though for a while.

96 Senator Cooper. Thank you.

Mr. Jenner. I gather the first interview by any FBI agent to your knowledge was on the first day of November 1963?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; and I don't really think interview is a fully accurate word.

Mr. Jenner. What word would you like to use?

Mrs. Paine. I felt that the agent stopped to see whether the Oswalds, either Mrs. Oswald or Mr., were living there, and to make the acquaintance of me. He said that he had talked with my immediate neighbor, Mrs. Roberts, the previous time.

Mr. Jenner. The pronoun you are using refers to the FBI agent.

Mrs. Paine. He, the FBI agent.

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mrs. Paine. Said that he had inquired of my next door neighbor, Mrs. Roberts, whether the Oswalds lived here, and she had said that she didn't know the last name but knew that the wife of the family was living there, and that there had just been a baby girl born, and that the husband came out some week ends.

Mr. Jenner. Is this what the agent told you?

Mrs. Paine. No, the neighbor told me.

Mr. Jenner. I see. All right.

Mrs. Paine. And I judged he wanted to find out directly.

Mr. Jenner. Had you finished?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Have you subsequently learned the name of the gentleman who interviewed you or conversed with you?

Mrs. Paine. I have subsequently learned his name, yes. It was James Hosty.

The Chairman. What was the name?

Mrs. Paine. James Hosty, H-O-S-T-Y.

Mr. Jenner. I don't wish you to give that full interview again because you touched on it yesterday and again at greater length this morning. But I do wish to ask you with respect to that interview, did you give Agent Hosty the telephone numbers that you had received from Lee Oswald as to where he might be reached in Dallas?

Mrs. Paine. No; I didn't. He asked me if I knew where Lee lived. I did think of these phone numbers, but——

Mr. Jenner. During the course of the——

Mrs. Paine. Or later.

Mr. Jenner. Of the interview?

Mrs. Paine. At least between that time and the time he came again, but I have been impressed with what I have now concluded was a mistaken impression I have which effected my behavior; namely, that the FBI was in possession of a great deal of information, or so I thought, and certainly would find it very easy to find out where Lee Oswald was living. I really didn't believe they didn't know or needed to find out from me. This is a feeling stemming from my understanding of the difficulties they faced working in a free society. I would behave quite differently now, but I have learned a lot from this particular experience.

Mr. Jenner. Now was there a subsequent interview?

Mrs. Paine. There was an interview a few days later, yes, interview to the extent that he came to the door, walked in the door. We didn't as much as sit down. But he asked again about an address. I had none. I did say that I expected——

Mr. Jenner. An address as to where Lee resided?

Mrs. Paine. In town where he resided. I did say that I expected that when Marina moved into an apartment with Lee again, as we all thought would occur, that I would be in contact with her, and that I would be perfectly willing to give him information as to that address when I had such, but that my contact was with her and therefore through that way I would have the address.

Mr. Jenner. Were you again interviewed by telephone or otherwise by any FBI agent prior to November 22, 1963.

97 Mrs. Paine. I have mentioned two times.

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mrs. Paine. And that was all.

Mr. Jenner. That was all. So up to the time of the assassination, the only interviews with the FBI to your knowledge were on the first?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. You will recall your testimony yesterday, Mrs. Paine, of the incident in which a telephone call was made by you at the request of Marina using the telephone number that has been left with you by Lee Oswald, and your inability to locate him, in fact the person who answered the telephone stated that there was no Lee Oswald living there. Do you recall your testimony on that score?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Did you report that to the FBI?

Mrs. Paine. No; I did not.

Mr. Jenner. You also recall your testimony with respect to the draft of the proposed letter which I think is before you, and that is Commission exhibit number?

Mrs. Paine. 130.

Mr. Jenner. Did you call the FBI and advise them of that incident?

Mrs. Paine. No; I did not.

Mr. Jenner. And without seeking to have you repeat your testimony, were your reasons for not doing so the same as the one that you gave when I asked you whether you had given Agent Hosty the telephone number?

Mrs. Paine. No; not identical. Certainly I didn't think that they had any information of such a letter, whereas I did think they knew where he lived or could easily find out, and of course they could also come to the house and see him at my house as he came on weekends.

Mr. Jenner. You did say to the FBI?

Mrs. Paine. I did.

Mr. Jenner. That he would be at your home on weekends.

Mrs. Paine. And I judged by the fact they didn't come that this was not someone they were terribly worried about talking to immediately. Both this letter, and the telephone conversation really, the one that followed it, where Marina reported to me that he was using a different name, were something new and different in the situation that made me feel this was a man I hadn't accurately perceived before.

I have said my impression in reading the letter was—I have said something similar to this—that of a small boy wanting to get in good with the boys, trying to use words that he thought would please. I didn't know to whom he addressed himself, but it struck me as something out of Pravda in his terminology. And I knew, as I have testified, that several of the statements in it were flatly false, and I wondered about the rest, and then when I heard that he was using a different name, that again was indication of a great disregard for truth on the part of Lee Oswald.

Mr. Jenner. Now what time of day did the interview on November 1 take place?

Mrs. Paine. Afternoon.

Mr. Jenner. Late?

Mrs. Paine. Middle of the afternoon. My memory is there were no children around which means it was nap time.

Mr. Jenner. It couldn't have been along about 5 o'clock in the afternoon?

Mrs. Paine. It was a Friday, wasn't it?

Mr. Jenner. Yes, it was.

Mrs. Paine. And he probably came out that Friday.

Mr. Jenner. You were just telling the agent, you had told the agent, had you not, that he came on weekends.

Mrs. Paine. I did.

Mr. Jenner. And he arrived on Fridays?

Mrs. Paine. I did.

Mr. Jenner. And this was a Friday?

Mrs. Paine. It was, and you will recall yesterday——

98 Mr. Jenner. And you did tell the agent that?

Mrs. Paine. Yes. It had to have been that session. I know I certainly told him, and it had to have been that time because the second meeting was very brief and had only to do with the address.

Mr. Jenner. And that was not on a Friday?

Mrs. Paine. No; it was not.

Mr. Jenner. Was anything said about the agent remaining because Lee Oswald would be along, he was expected?

Mrs. Paine. No. May I interject here to recall to your mind that as I looked through my calendar trying to find if there was any time, any weekend other than the weekend of October 12, that Lee arrived on a Saturday instead of a Friday, it had to be that weekend by deduction. And I don't recall whether he arrived that Friday evening.

I do recall when he arrived we told him about this meeting and I gave him the piece of paper on which I had written Mr. Hosty's name and the normal telephone number for the FBI in Dallas.

Mr. Jenner. But you recall no conversation. May I suggest this to you as possibly refreshing your recollection. That on that Friday afternoon, which I may say to you now, Mrs. Paine, is reported by Agent Hosty as having taken place on November 1, and he has made his report accordingly, was there any discussion of a suggestion that Lee Oswald would be out that weekend, that is either that you told him he would not be or that he would be, that you would expect him?

Mrs. Paine. My recollection is that I said he came out here on weekends and he could be seen then.

Mr. Jenner. Go ahead.

Mrs. Paine. And I have no recollection of ever thinking he was not going to come that weekend.

Mr. Jenner. You have also testified that you were also advised in advance when he was coming?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. He asked permission. So if he were coming on the 1st of November, that very day, you would have been advised in advance that he was coming, would you not, according to your testimony.

Mrs. Paine. Yes; I would think so.

Mr. Jenner. But you don't recall saying anything to Agent Hosty that he was coming that evening, at least that you expected him to be there.

Mrs. Paine. I may have. I don't specifically recall.

Mr. Jenner. But you do have a recollection that you told him at least generally that Lee Oswald came to your home on weekends?

Mrs. Paine. I feel certain of that.

Mr. Jenner. In any event, Agent Hosty did not remain?

Mrs. Paine. He did not remain. I don't think it was very close to 5 when he left. It was earlier in the afternoon.

Mr. Jenner. You are inclined to think the interview took place earlier in the afternoon, that is prior to 5 o'clock?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; more likely 2 to 3 or 3:30.

Mr. Jenner. During the slumber hours of your children?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. Now you are certain in your own mind that you had no interview or no FBI agent interviewed you prior to November 1?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. And if an FBI agent did interview you, you were not aware that you were being interviewed?

Mrs. Paine. That is absolutely correct.

Mr. Jenner. Do you have a recollection that on October 29, that would be 2 days before the Friday session that you have testified about, that some sales person or purporting to be a sales person or a drummer or somebody came to your door and made some inquiries of you about the Oswalds?

Mrs. Paine. October 29 is a Tuesday. I don't recall any such encounter. Written on my calendar is "Dal" for Dallas "Junie" meaning we went to a clinic in Dallas in the morning. It doesn't say about the rest of the day.

99 Mr. Jenner. Now when you reported to Lee Oswald the name of the agent and the telephone number, you put that on a slip of paper.

Mrs. Paine. I did.

Mr. Jenner. And handed the slip of paper to him?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; I did.

Mr. Jenner. Was there any conversation between you then as to FBI agents having at any time prior thereto interviewed Lee Oswald.

Mrs. Paine. There may have been. I am certainly clear that I was told probably by Marina that he had been interviewed, or by both of them, that he had been interviewed in Fort Worth when they first returned from the Soviet Union. This I knew before the time of the assassination.

Mr. Jenner. Did Marina say whether she had been interviewed in Fort Worth?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. This was only that Lee Oswald had been interviewed at Fort Worth?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. But you recall no conversation in which either Lee or Marina said or intimated to you that they had, either of them had been interviewed either in New Orleans or in Dallas.

Mrs. Paine. Nothing was mentioned of having been interviewed in New Orleans or Dallas.

Mr. Jenner. You made some reference yesterday, and I want to keep it in context, to the license number of the FBI agent.

Mrs. Paine. Not in testimony. Did I?

Mr. Jenner. I thought you had.

Mrs. Paine. Perhaps.

Mr. Jenner. It would be well if we went into that. Would you please recite what that incident was?

Mrs. Paine. I am confused by the question.

Mr. Jenner. Do you recall the matter of the taking of the agent's license number from his automobile?

Mrs. Paine. I was told by Agent Hosty well after the assassination that they had found in Oswald's room in Dallas a slip of paper which included not only Hosty's name and the telephone number of the FBI in Dallas, but also the license plate number with one letter incorrect, one number incorrect, of the car that Hosty had driven out. This was the first I had heard anything about their having been a license plate.

Mr. Jenner. You did not take——

Mrs. Paine. Number taken down.

Mr. Jenner. You did not take the number down and place it on that piece of paper?

Mrs. Paine. I did not.

Mr. Jenner. Or give it to Lee Harvey Oswald or to Marina?

Mrs. Paine. I did not. I was never at any time interested in the license plate number. I wondered why anyone else would have been.

Mr. Jenner. In any event, the first you heard of the license number was after the assassination?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. Under the circumstances you have now related?

Mrs. Paine. I might describe the second meeting with Mr. Hosty a little more in detail.

Mr. Jenner. That is November 1?

Mrs. Paine. That is the only way I can guess as to how this license plate number was in Oswald's room.

Mr. Jenner. All right.

Mrs. Paine. Hosty and I, and a second agent was with him, I don't know the name, stood at the door of my home and talked briefly, as I have already described, about the address of Oswald in Dallas. Marina was in her room feeding the baby, or busy some way. She came in just as Hosty and I were closing the conversation, and I must say we were both surprised at her entering.100 He then took his leave immediately, and as he has told me later, drove to the end of my street which curves and then drove back down Fifth Street.

Mr. Jenner. Now you are reporting something agent Hosty has told you?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Were you aware of the fact that he drove to the end of the street?

Mrs. Paine. Not at that time, no. I was aware that he had parked his car out in front of my house. My best judgment is that the license plate was not visible, however, while it was parked; not visible from my house.

Mr. Jenner. Did you see the car?

Mrs. Paine. I saw the car.

Mr. Jenner. Parked?

Mrs. Paine. Yes. I noticed it particularly. Because the first time he had come on the 1st of November, he had parked down the street, and he made reference to the fact that they don't like to draw attention for the neighborhood to any interviews that they make, and in fact my neighbor also commented when she had talked with him a few days previously that his car was parked down the street and wasn't in front of my house. So I noticed the change that he had parked directly in front. But to the best of my recollection, in back of the Oldsmobile of my husband's.

Mr. Jenner. Did you attempt to look to see what his license number was?

Mrs. Paine. What?

Mr. Jenner. Did you attempt to look at his automobile to see what the license number was?

Mrs. Paine. No; nor could I have seen it from my house without my glasses on. I am nearsighted, and I was not wearing them.

Mr. Jenner. But the license plate would have been visible to anybody walking down the street or who desired?

Mrs. Paine. Walking down the street, yes.

Mr. Jenner. Or looking out your garage.

Mrs. Paine. I don't think so, because to the best of my recollection, an Oldsmobile that my husband bought was also in front of the house, so that the cars would have been close at the bumpers.

Mr. Jenner. So the license plates would have been screened by the Oldsmobile?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Have you given us all you have in mind with respect to the incidents?

Mrs. Paine. There is one other thing which is a little different, and I had forgotten it but it is recalled by our conversation. I have already said that I said to Agent Hosty that if in the future Marina and Lee are living together, and I know, or I have correspondence with them I would give him his address if he wished it. Then it was the next day or that evening or sometime shortly thereafter Marina said to me while we were doing dishes that she felt their address was their business. Now my understanding is she doesn't understand English well. The word in Russian for address is "adres," and she made it plain that this was a matter of privacy for them. This surprised me. She had never spoken in this way to me before, and I didn't see that it made any difference.

Mr. Jenner. Did this arise out of, or in connection with, or was it stimulated, by any discussion between the two of you of the visit of Agent Hosty?

Mrs. Paine. So far as I could see, it arose separately.

Mr. Jenner. So far as you can recall?

Mrs. Paine. As far as I can recall.

Mr. Jenner. Did you make any effort to obtain Lee Oswald's address so that you could give it to the FBI?

Mrs. Paine. No. As I have testified, I really thought they had it.

Mr. Jenner. When you made the telephone call to Lee Oswald and learned he apparently was living under an alias, and certainly in that weekend immediately preceding the assassination when the argument occurred between Marina and Lee Oswald on which he upbraided her for having made the call, you still weren't activated to call the FBI and tell them that he was living under an assumed name, is that true?

Mrs. Paine. That is true. I did expect to give this copy which I had made101 of his "Dear Sirs," letter which you have marked Commission Exhibit 103 to the FBI agent at the next meeting.

Mr. Jenner. At the time he called if he did call?

Mrs. Paine. I thought he would.

Mr. Jenner. During the interview on November 1, you have testified that Marina was present some of the time.

Mrs. Paine. She was present virtually all of that time.

Mr. Jenner. All of the time?

Mrs. Paine. And virtually none of the next time.

Mr. Jenner. Virtually none.

Mrs. Paine. Just came in at the end, on the 5th.

Mr. Jenner. Was she out in the yard? Did you get that impression any time during that second interview?

Mrs. Paine. No; she had to have been in her room the entire time.

Mr. Jenner. Are you firm, reasonably firm that Marina, even if she desired to learn of the license number on Agent Hosty's car, that she could not have seen or detected it while remaining in the house?

Mrs. Paine. She might possibly—oh, I wouldn't say that. It is conceivable, depending on where it was parked, it is conceivable that she could have seen it from the bedroom window.

Mr. Jenner. You are holding up exhibit number?

Mrs. Paine. 430.

Mr. Jenner. And you are pointing to what on that exhibit?

Mrs. Paine. The window of the bedroom which she occupied, which is the southeast bedroom of my house, looks directly out to where I thought the car was parked. From that position, if I am correct about where the car was parked, she couldn't have seen the license plate, but she could have seen it if as Agent Hosty described to me later she saw it while the car was moving along the street.

Mr. Jenner. When he pulled away?

Mrs. Paine. When he pulled away and then he came back and went the other way.

Mr. Jenner. So it is possible that she may have seen the license?

Mrs. Paine. It is possible.

Mr. Jenner. This date that you are now talking about when he parked the car in front of your house, that was November 5?

Mrs. Paine. Yes, it was.

Mr. Jenner. Whereas on November 1, he parked the car down the street.

Mrs. Paine. That is right. I might add a little more detail here if you want it. Marina and I talked about whether to tell Lee that the FBI had been out a second time, and the 5th was a Tuesday. We didn't see Lee until the 8th. She said to me that he had been upset by the FBI's coming out and inquiring about him, and he felt it was interference with his family. And I said there is no reason for him to be upset, or I think conveyed that idea. But the question of whether to tell him was settled by Marina who told him on Friday evening, the 8th, and then Lee inquired of me about that meeting, and he said—I don't think I have yet said for the record—he said to me then he felt the FBI was inhibiting his activities. This is what he said. Has this been said?

Mr. Jenner. Not yet.

Mrs. Paine. All right, I have said it. I said to him "Don't be worried about it. You have your rights to your views, whether they are popular or not." But I could see that he didn't take that view but rather was seriously bothered by their having come out and inquired about him. At this time or another, I don't recall certainly, I asked whether he was worried about losing his job, and he was.

Mr. Jenner. Did he say so, Mrs. Paine?

Mrs. Paine. I recall particularly a telephone conversation with him. On one of those in which he called out to talk to Marina, I judge, and perhaps she was busy still changing a baby and I talked. I don't recall the exact circumstances but I do recall it, and I said to him if his views, not any references now to the FBI or their interest in him, but if his political views were interfering with his ability to hold a job, that this might be a matter of interest to the102 American Civil Liberties Union, that he should in our country have a right to unpopular views or any other kind.

This I believe was after he had been to an American Civil Liberties Union meeting with my husband, that meeting having been October 25.

Mr. Jenner. What was his response?

Mrs. Paine. He was pleased, I felt. He felt in a sense reassured. And indeed I think his response was to join, because it was later reported in the press that he had, which makes me think that this telephone conversation was quite close to the time of the assassination.

Mr. Jenner. Mrs. Paine——

Mrs. Paine. I am putting in a lot of guesswork.

Mr. Jenner. Am I interrupting you?

Mrs. Paine. No. It is just that I wonder if you want me to dredge this deeply into things I cannot be absolutely certain about.

Mr. Jenner. We would like your best recollection. We do hesitate about speculation.

Mrs. Paine. Indeed.

Mr. Jenner. When we are asking about factual matters. We do ask for your speculation occasionally, but to try to make it quite deliberate when we are asking for that rather than for facts. Have you now stated all that comes to mind with respect to the advice to Lee Oswald of the visit of FBI agents or any discussion with Mr. Oswald at any time while he visited your home during this period in 1963 prior to November 22 with respect to FBI agent visits?

Have you now exhausted your recollection on the subject?

Mrs. Paine. I think one other thing. Agent Hosty asked me, and I am not certain which time, but more likely the second, since so far as I can recall Marina wasn't present, if I thought this was a mental problem, his words referring to Lee Oswald, and I said I didn't understand the mental processes of anyone who could espouse the Marxist philosophy, but that this was far different from saying he was mentally unstable or unable to conduct himself in normal society.

I did tell Lee that this question had been asked. He gave no reply, but more a scoffing laugh, hardly voiced.

Mr. Jenner. Have you now exhausted your recollection?

Mrs. Paine. I have clearly exhausted it.

Senator Cooper. Who asked the question?

Mrs. Paine. Hosty asked the question "Is this a mental problem?"

Senator Cooper. Did you ever hear Oswald express any anger toward either the agents or the FBI, as an agency?

Mrs. Paine. He expressed distinct irritation that he was being bothered. That is how he looked upon it.

Senator Cooper. You said that you thought he was concerned about its effect upon his job, but did he express any emotion other than that?

Mrs. Paine. And he was being inhibited in what he wanted to do.

Senator Cooper. Any irritation or anger because they had interviewed?

Mrs. Paine. In tone of voice, yes.

Senator Cooper. What would it be like?

Mrs. Paine. Well, irritated. He said, "They are trying to inhibit my activities."

Senator Cooper. Did he swear at all?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Senator Cooper. He used no language.

Mrs. Paine. No; he didn't.

Senator Cooper. Did he raise the tone of his voice?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Senator Cooper. Did he show——

Mrs. Paine. Nothing more than an edge to his voice I would say.

Senator Cooper. Did he direct it against any individual FBI agent.

Mrs. Paine. No; he didn't. I have one other recollection that possibly should be put in regarding the conversation with Agent Hosty the first time when Marina was present. We discussed many things, just as you would having coffee in the afternoon with a visitor, and——

103 Mr. Jenner. Is this a discussion between you and Marina with the agent present or not present.

Mrs. Paine. He was present.

Mr. Jenner. All right.

Mrs. Paine. Discussion between the three of us.

Mr. Jenner. Thank you.

Mrs. Paine. And I can't recall certainly who brought it up, but I think Marina asked of Hosty what did he think of Castro, and he said, "Well, he reads what is printed and from the view given in the American newspapers of Castro's activities and intentions, he certainly didn't like those intentions or actions."

And Marina expressed an opinion subsequently, but contrary, that perhaps he was not given much chance by the American press, or that the press was not entirely fair to him. This I translated.

Mr. Jenner. Is that the extent of it? Now have you exhausted your recollection?

Mrs. Paine. I hope so. I have exhausted myself.

Mr. Jenner. Mr. Chairman, do you have another question?

Senator Cooper. Not on this subject.

Mr. Jenner. I would like to return to your furnishing of the name and the telephone number of Agent Hosty. In Commission Exhibit No. 18, which is in evidence, which was Lee Oswald's diary—by the way, may I hand the exhibit to the witness, Mr. Chairman?

Senator Cooper. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. This is an address book. In any event it is in evidence as Exhibit No. 18. Have you ever seen that booklet before?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. Examine the outside of the booklet. Have you seen this?

Mrs. Paine. I have never seen this.

Mr. Jenner. You have never seen that in Lee Oswald's possession?

Mrs. Paine. I have never seen it at all.

Mr. Jenner. There is an entry as follows. Would you help me Mr. Redlich. Would you read it please?

Mr. Redlich. "November 1, 1963 FBI agent James P. Hosty."

Mrs. Paine. Junior?

Mr. Redlich. Just above the word "Hosty" appears in parentheses "RI 1-1121," and underneath "James P. Hosty" appears "MU 8605." Underneath that is "1114 Commerce Street Dallas." I would just like to correct upon the record that the phone number originally read is "RI-11211."

Mrs. Paine. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. What is that phone number?

Mrs. Paine. That phone number I recognize from my own use of it is to the FBI in Dallas, my use since the assassination.

Mr. Jenner. And the series of numbers rather than phone numbers, series of numbers "MU 8605."

Mrs. Paine. Is not known to me.

Mr. Jenner. What is the system of license plate numbering and lettering employed in Texas?

Mrs. Paine. I am not acquainted with any particular system. They use both letters and numbers.

Mr. Jenner. I call your attention in connection with this entry that it is dated November 1, 1963, and there does appear in it the license number.

Mrs. Paine. Oh, yes.

Mr. Jenner. Your recollection is firm that you didn't furnish it?

Mrs. Paine. May I point out also that he must have put this down after November 1st, or at least that evening. He could not have written it down with——

Mr. Jenner. It had to be after the fact as you furnished him the name.

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. And the agent's address.

Mrs. Paine. I would think he could as well have added—you don't want my thinking—this number.

104 Mr. Jenner. The reason I call that to your attention, Mrs. Paine, it still does not stimulate your recollection.

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. Any differently than before. You did not furnish the license number.

Mrs. Paine. I certainly did not. To the best of my recollection I did not put down the address either.

Mr. Jenner. Now during the course of that interview of November 5th, did you not say to Agent Hosty that Lee had visited at your home November 2 and 3?

Mrs. Paine. It is entirely possible, likely.

Mr. Jenner. And in this connection I am at liberty to report to you that Agent Hosty's report is that you did advise him that Oswald had visited at your home on November 2 and November 3. Does that serve to refresh your recollection that you did so advise him?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall that.

Mr. Jenner. Now did you express an opinion to Agent Hosty that Oswald was "an illogical person?"

Mrs. Paine. Yes, I did, in answer to his question was this a mental problem, as I have just described to you.

Mr. Jenner. Yes; that is all right. And did you also say to Agent Hosty that Oswald himself had "Admitted being a Trotskyite Communist."

Mrs. Paine. Oh, I doubt seriously I said Trotskyite Communist. I would think Leninist Communist, but I am not certain.

Mr. Jenner. Do you remember making a remark of similar import?

Mrs. Paine. Reference to Trotsky surprises me. I have come since the assassination to wonder if he had Trotskyite views. I have become interested in what such views are since the assassination.

Mr. Jenner. To the best of your recollection you don't recall making that comment?

Mrs. Paine. I wouldn't think that I had the knowledge by which to make such a statement even.

Mr. Jenner. Now after this rationalization you have made, Mrs. Paine, it is your recollection that you did not make such a comment?

Mrs. Paine. I can't recall. What was the second item that I told Hosty he had been out on the second and third? I am just trying to clarify here.

Mr. Jenner. You had told him that Lee Oswald had been at your home November 2 and 3, that you told him that Lee Oswald was an illogical person?

Mrs. Paine. That is it.

Mr. Jenner. And third, that you told him that Oswald had admitted being a Trotskyite Communist.

Mrs. Paine. I may have said that. I don't recall.

Mr. Jenner. You may have said the latter.

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall, that is right.

Mr. Jenner. It is possible that you did say it?

Mrs. Paine. It is possible. I am surprised, however, by the word at that point.

Mr. Jenner. Now do you recall a telephone interview or call by Agent Hosty on the 27th of January 1964? Perhaps I had better put it this way to you. Do you recall subsequent telephone calls after the assassination that you received from Agent Hosty, that you did receive such telephone calls?

Mrs. Paine. I did, and visits also, at the house.

Mr. Jenner. Do you recall he called you on the 27th of January 1964 and that he inquired whether you had given Lee Oswald the license number of his automobile when he had been at your home? You stated that you had not.

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

I would have thought that was a face to face interview but I don't recall.

Mr. Jenner. But you also told Agent Hosty on that occasion, "However, this license number could have easily been observed by Marina Oswald since her bedroom is located only a short distance from the street where this car would have been parked."

Mrs. Paine. I doubt I said "easily."

105 Mr. Jenner. But you could have said that the license number could have been observed by Marina from her bedroom?

Mrs. Paine. My recollection of this, that it was not a telephone interview.

Mr. Jenner. Telephone or otherwise, there was an interview of you at which you made that statement, that Marina could have seen the license?

Mrs. Paine. That Marina could have?

Mr. Jenner. You do recall the incident. You don't recall whether it was at your home or whether it was by telephone?

Mrs. Paine. I certainly recall talking with Agent Hosty and on at least one occasion about how that license number got in Oswald's possession.

Mr. Jenner. Do you recall a telephone interview by an FBI agent Lee, Ivan D. Lee on the 28th of December 1963?

Mrs. Paine. The name is not familiar to me. A great many FBI agents——

Mr. Jenner. Do you recall an incident in which you reported to an FBI agent that you had just talked with a reporter from the Houston Post?

Mrs. Paine. Right.

Mr. Jenner. You recall that?

Mrs. Paine. I do.

Mr. Jenner. Now during the course of that interview, you made reference to a newspaper reporter, did you not?

Mrs. Paine. I did. His name is Lonny Hudkins.

Mr. Jenner. Did you say that the reporter whom you have now identified had advised you that Lee Harvey Oswald's mother had been working for a party in Forth Worth during September and October 1962 as a practical nurse, and according to the reporter, Mrs. Oswald, mother of Lee Harvey Oswald, advised this party during her employment that her son was doing important anti-subversive work?

Mrs. Paine. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. Would you please relate that incident so we will have the facts insofar as you participated in them stated of record?

Mrs. Paine. I will. I would not have recalled the date, but I knew it to be toward the end of 1963. I was called on the telephone by Lonny Hudkins, whom I had never met, announced himself as from the Houston Post, said there was a matter of some importance that he wanted to talk with me about, could he come out to the house? And he then indicated the nature of what he wanted to talk about to the extent very accurately reported in what you have just read. I called the FBI really to see if they could advise me in dealing with this man. It struck me as a very unresponsible thing to print, and I wanted to be able to convince Hudkins of that fact. I was hopeful that they might be willing to make a flat denial to him, or in some way prevent the confusion that would have been caused by his printing this.

Now shall I go on to tell about the encounter which followed with Mr. Hudkins, and something of that content?

Mr. Jenner. I am a little at a loss. Why don't you start because I can't anticipate.

Mrs. Paine. Whether it is important?

Mr. Jenner. You haven't related this to me. Are these statements you made to the FBI that you are about to relate?

Mrs. Paine. If they asked. I don't recall specifically. I certainly recall that the content of the telephone conversation reported there is accurate and is in sum the conversation that then followed with Lonny Hudkins too, except that it doesn't say what I said in the situation.

Mr. Jenner. Did you report to the FBI that Mr. Hudkins had said to you that the primary purpose of seeing you was an effort to get some confirmation if possible of the possibility Oswald was actually working on behalf of the United States Government prior to the assassination?

Mrs. Paine. I was aware that was his purpose.

Mr. Jenner. That you knew of no such situation, and ventured the opinion to the reporter that the story was wholly unlikely, that you could not imagine anyone having that much confidence in Oswald?

Mrs. Paine. That is accurate. I went on to say that Mrs. Oswald, senior, Mrs. Marguerite Oswald, could well have said to this matron a full year back106 and more that her son was doing important anti-subversive work for the government. This was 1962 he was talking about, but that this was her opinion or what she may have wished to have true. And I did not consider it terribly creditable, and said to him "You don't think you have a story here, do you?"

Mr. Jenner. You also recall——

Mrs. Paine. May I put in another point here?

Mr. Jenner. In connection with this subject matter?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. All right.

Mrs. Paine. I called and the man to whom I talked, I don't know if it was Lee, or I think it was someone else who answered first, I am not certain at all.

Mr. Jenner. Odum?

Mrs. Paine. Odum? It certainly was not Odum. I know him. But someone answered the phone and I told this to him, and perhaps it was Lee. He said to me in response to my inquiring "What shall I do, here is this man coming," he said "well you don't know anything of this nature do you?" I said, "No".

"Then anything you might have to say is sheer conjecture on the subject?"

"Yes."

"Then you should certainly make that plain in talking with him."

Mr. Jenner. Did you do so?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; I certainly did. And I felt as though I really shouldn't have bothered them. This was not of interest to them. But then I was called back later by the FBI on the same subject.

Mr. Jenner. And you reported that conversation, the subsequent call back by the FBI?

Mrs. Paine. No. You have content of the first conversation I think there, isn't that so, or it might have been?

Mr. Jenner. There are a series, Mrs. Paine, that run in this order. The first was on December 28, 1963. The conversation occurred between you and an Agent Lee, and it was a telephone interview?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. I have asked you about that, and I have read from the report and you have affirmed that you so reported to the agent. And on the next day, December 29, 1963, you had a telephone conversation, whether you called or whether the agent called, with Kenneth C. Howe.

Mrs. Paine. What is his name?

Mr. Jenner. Kenneth C. Howe, on this same subject. I have questioned you about that, and I have read from the report, and you have affirmed as to that. Then on January 3, 1964, this apparently was an interview at your home by Agent Odum? Do you recall that?

Mrs. Paine. Agent Odum has been out a great deal.

Mr. Jenner. In which you say, did you not, that this reporter Hudkins of the Houston Post newspaper in his contact with you on the previous Saturday, December 28 had stated that the FBI was foolish to deny that Agent Joseph Hosty, being a reference to the FBI agent we have been talking about today, had tried to develop Lee Harvey Oswald as an informant. You stated you had made no comment one way or the other to Hudkins regarding this remark, and furthermore that you knew that——

Mrs. Paine. Would you please repeat that, that I stated?

Mr. Jenner. I will read it all to you then. You advised that Lonny Hudkins, the reporter of the Houston Post in his contact that he had with you on the previous Saturday, December 28, 1963, had stated to you that the FBI was foolish to deny that Agent Hosty had tried to develop Lee Harvey Oswald as an informant. Did you make that statement?

Mrs. Paine. Not in just those terms.

Mr. Jenner. Did you make the further statement that you made no comment one way or the other to Hudkins regarding this remark of his to you? In order to get this in the proper posture, Mrs. Paine——

Senator Cooper. Do you understand the question?

107 Mrs. Paine. I understand what is said, but it doesn't check strictly with my recollection, that is the confusion.

Mr. Jenner. What the agent is reporting is your report of what Lonny Hudkins had said to you, and your report to the agent of your response to what Lonny Hudkins had said to you. Do we have it now in the proper posture?

Mrs. Paine. This is by no means an accurate description of the conversation or my response.

Mr. Jenner. You don't have to accept this report, of course, Mrs. Paine. Tell us what occurred in that interview?

Mrs. Paine. All right.

Mr. Jenner. What you said and what Agent Odum said to you.

Mrs. Paine. Oh, I don't recall that so well. I was going to tell you what I said to Hudkins. I do recall this, and it may be the foundation for what appears in your report there. I made no comment on Mr. Hudkins saying that there was a Joe Hosty, and that this agent had been in contact with Oswald. I observed that Hudkins had inaccurate information.

Mr. Jenner. Didn't you tell the agent what this reporter had said to you that was inaccurate, to wit, that the reporter had stated to you that the FBI was foolish to deny that Agent Hosty had tried to develop Lee Harvey Oswald as an informant?

Mrs. Paine. What is totally inaccurate is the following, that implies that I made no comment to Hudkins regarding such a remark.

Mr. Jenner. No please, that has not been suggested. I am trying to take this chronologically. Did you first report to the agent that Hudkins had said to you that the FBI was foolish to deny that Agent Joseph Hosty had tried to develop Lee Harvey Oswald as an informant.

Mrs. Paine. Certainly what Hudkins said was of this nature.

Mr. Jenner. And you so reported to the agent?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Then did you make the further remark, which is what I think you are trying to say, that you made no comment one way or the other to Hudkins when he made that remark, his remark to you?

Mrs. Paine. I made a great deal of comment and I will say what those comments were.

Mr. Jenner. You did to the reporter.

Mrs. Paine. To the reporter, yes.

Mr. Jenner. Please say what you said, and did you report this to the FBI, Mr. Odum?

Mrs. Paine. Inadequately clearly, judging from the——

Mr. Jenner. Why don't you do it this way?

Mrs. Paine. Yes I reported it.

Mr. Jenner. Let us have first what you said to the FBI agent on the subject?

Mrs. Paine. I can't recall what I said to the FBI agent. It is much easier for me to recall what I said to Hudkins. But I do recall clearly that I said to the FBI agent "I made no correction of his inaccuracies about Hosty's name." This is where I made no comment.

Mr. Jenner. I am at a loss now.

Mrs. Paine. Joe is not his name.

Mr. Jenner. I see. His name is James?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Did you indicate to the agent that you had raised an issue with the reporter?

Mrs. Paine. He also spelled it with an "i", Hudkins.

Mr. Jenner. With respect to the other phase, that is to what the reporter had said to you.

Mrs. Paine. I would guess that I reported to Mr. Odum other things about——

Mr. Jenner. Present recollections Mrs. Paine.

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall the particular conversation with Mr. Odum at all. I talked with him a great deal.

Mr. Jenner. Did you deny this state to Mr. Hudkins, the reporter?

Mrs. Paine. To Mr. Hudkins?

Mr. Jenner. Did you say to him that you did not agree with his statement?

108 Mrs. Paine. To Mr. Hudkins I said many things, which I hoped would convince him that he had no story, that his information was very shaky, that Oswald was not in my view a person that would have been hired by the FBI or by Russia. I said to him "You are the other side of the coin from a Mr. Guy Richards of the New York Journal-American who is certain that Oswald was a paid spy for the Soviet Union, and just as inaccurate," and coming to, in my opinion, and of course I made it clear this was my opinion, to conclusions just as wrong.

Mr. Jenner. That is, it was your opinion that Lee Oswald was neither a Russian agent nor an agent of any agency of the United States?

Mrs. Paine. That is right. I said indeed to Mr. Hudkins, I had said to Mr. Richards that if the so-called great Soviet conspiracy has to rest for its help upon such inadequate people as Lee Oswald, there is no hope of their achieving their aims. I said I simply cannot believe that the FBI would find it necessary to employ such a shaky and inadequate person.

Mr. Jenner. And is that still your view?

Mrs. Paine. Indeed it is.

Mr. Jenner. Did you also say to Mr. Odum on that occasion that you knew that Agent Hosty had not interviewed Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mrs. Paine. Probably.

Senator Cooper. Did you read the statements after they had been written?

Mrs. Paine. What statements?

Senator Cooper. The statements of the FBI.

Mrs. Paine. Oh, no; I have never.

Senator Cooper. You have never seen them?

Mrs. Paine. Never seen anything of it. I knew they must write something, but I have never seen any of these statements.

Senator Cooper. You never asked them to show you the statements?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. Did you ever make a statement to anybody that you can recall that Lee Harvey Oswald in your opinion was doing underground work?

Mrs. Paine. That has never been my opinion. I would be absolutely certain that he never——

Mr. Jenner. Please, did you say it?

Mrs. Paine. And I would be absolutely certain that I never said such a thing.

Mr. Jenner. To anybody, including when I say anybody, Mrs. Dorothy Gravitis?

Mrs. Paine. Absolutely certain. Never said to anyone that I thought Lee was doing undercover work.

Senator Cooper. What is that name?

Mr. Jenner. Gravitis, G-r-a-v-i-t-i-s.

Senator Cooper. Do you know this person?

Mrs. Paine. She is my Russian tutor in Dallas.

Senator Cooper. What?

Mrs. Paine. Russian tutor and the mother-in-law of the translator that was at the police station.

Mr. Jenner. To conclude this series——

Mrs. Paine. Would you clarify for me, someone is of the opinion that I thought that Oswald was an undercover agent for whom?

Mr. Jenner. That you said so.

Mrs. Paine. For whom?

Mr. Jenner. For the Russian government.

Mrs. Paine. Oh. I have certainly never said anything of the sort.

Mr. Jenner. Did you ever say to anybody including Mrs. Gravitis that you thought Lee Harvey Oswald was a Communist?

Mrs. Paine. Well, it is possible I said that. I thought he considered himself a Communist by ideology, certainly a Marxist. He himself always corrected anyone who called him a Communist and said he was a Marxist.

Mr. Jenner. When you use the term communist do you think of a person as a member of the Communist Party or a native of Russia?

Mrs. Paine. I seldom use the term at all, but I would confine it to people who were members or considered themselves in support of Communist ideology.

109 Mr. Jenner. A person in your mind may be a Communist, and yet not a member of the Communist Party, even in Russia?

Mrs. Paine. I might use the word in that loose way.

Mr. Jenner. The last of these interviews was on, may I suggest, and if not would you correct me, January 27, 1964, by Agent Wiehl, and Agent Hosty. It appears, and would you please correct me if I am wrong, to have been an interview in your home at the very tail end of January 1964?

Mrs. Paine. I have no specific recollection.

Mr. Jenner. Do you recall an interview in which you reported to the FBI, these two agents, that agent Hosty—no, that you gave Lee Harvey Oswald the name of agent James P. Hosty together with the Dallas FBI telephone number which you had obtained on November 1, 1963, that you did not give him the license number of the automobile driven by agent Hosty, however, and that, as I have asked you before, the license number could have been observed by Marina Oswald on November 1?

Mrs. Paine. That is my recollection of the occurrence.

Mr. Jenner. And it could have been observed on November 5th?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Senator Cooper. Did you yourself see the license plate?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Senator Cooper. You don't know the numbers or letters that were on the license plate?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. Mrs. Paine, you testified yesterday and you testified again today, this morning, that you had no recollection of Lee Oswald having gone into the garage of your home on Thursday, November 21. Do you recall that testimony?

Mrs. Paine. Well, that I did not see him there or see him go through the door to the garage. I was clear in my own mind that it was he who had left the light on, and I tried to describe that.

Mr. Jenner. It may have been a possibility and you were inferring from that that he was in the garage.

Mrs. Paine. I definitely infer that.

Mr. Jenner. Were you interviewed by the FBI agents Hosty and Abernathy on the 23d of November 1963?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And in the course of that interview, do you recall having stated to these agents that on the evening of November 21, Lee Oswald went out to the garage of your home, where he had many of his personal effects stored, and spent considerable time, apparently rearranging and handling his personal effects.

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall saying exactly that.

Mr. Jenner. Could you have said that to the agents.

Mrs. Paine. I could have said as far as spending considerable time.

Mr. Jenner. Now that your recollection is possibly further refreshed, please tell us what you did say to the agents as you now recall?

Mrs. Paine. You have refreshed nothing. You have got all there was of my recollection in previous testimony.

Mr. Jenner. Based on the fundamentals, the specifics which you have given us yesterday and today, you did report to the FBI on the 23d of November in the interview to which I have called your attention that on the evening of the 21st Oswald went out to the garage where he had many of his personal effects stored, and spent considerable time apparently rearranging and handling his personal effects.

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall ever saying "apparently rearranging and handling."

Mr. Jenner. Other than the word "apparently" that is a reasonable summary of what you did say to the FBI agents, is it?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall. I think my best recollection is as I have given it to you in the testimony, was it this morning, that I certainly was of the opinion that he had been out there. I had been busy for some time with my children, and I could easily, and of course that was the day after, and this several months after, have been of the opinion, been informed as to how long he had been out there, but my recollection now doesn't give me any length of time.

110 Mr. Jenner. You have heretofore given us yesterday and today your very best recollection after full reflection on all the course of events.

Mrs. Paine. I certainly have.

Mr. Jenner. I notice that during the course of the interview, and perhaps you will recall, that you did call attention of the FBI, these two agents, to the Mexico City letter about which you have testified, is that correct?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; I gave it to them.

Mr. Jenner. Mr. Chairman, that is all I intend to cover with respect to the FBI. Do you have any questions? We will go on to another subject.

Senator Cooper. This would be going back into the subject on which you have already testified, but with reference to this last statement, this letter, where it is reported, you said, Lee Oswald did go into the garage and spend some time, did you make a statement to the FBI after the agents had been in the garage, or the police had been in the garage, and had found the blanket with nothing in it.

Mrs. Paine. Yes, certainly, this was the next day that Hosty was out with Abernathy.

Senator Cooper. And you did remember of course that you found the light on?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Senator Cooper. You did not expect it to be on in the garage? Do you think it is correct then that at the time you made this statement, recognizing the importance of the garage, that you did say at that time that he had been in the garage on the night before the President was assassinated?

Mrs. Paine. Yes. I think I said that.

Senator Cooper. You think you made that statement?

Mrs. Paine. I think I made that statement. This was certainly my impression.

Mr. Jenner. You have already related the arrival of your husband, Michael Paine, at your home in mid-afternoon of the day of the assassination?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Now would you please tell me exactly to the best of your recollection the words of your husband as he walked in the door?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall his saying anything.

Mr. Jenner. Now his words if any with respect to why he had come.

Mrs. Paine. I asked him before he volunteered. I said something to the effect of "how did you know to come?"

Mr. Jenner. And what did he say?

Mrs. Paine. He said he had heard on the radio at work that Lee Oswald was in custody, and came immediately to the house.

Mr. Jenner. And that is what you recall he said?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. Did he say, and I quote: "I heard where the President was shot, and I came right over to see if I could be of any help to you."

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. Did he also say to you that he "Just walked off the job."

Mrs. Paine. No. He said he had come from work. I might interject here one recollection if you want it.

Mr. Jenner. Please.

Mrs. Paine. Of Michael having telephoned to me after the assassination. He wanted to know if I had heard.

Mr. Jenner. Did he call you before he arrived at your home?

Mrs. Paine. He called. He knew about the assassination. He had been told by a waitress at lunchtime. I don't know whether he knew any further details, whether he knew from whence the shots had been fired, but he knew immediately that I would want to know, and called simply to find out if I knew, and of course I did, and we didn't converse about it, but I felt the difference between him and my immediate neighbor to whom I have already referred, Michael was as struck and grieved as I was, and we shared this over the telephone.

Mr. Jenner. And his appearance in mid-afternoon, as you have related, was, according to what he said activated as you have related, that he had heard that Lee Oswald was now involved.

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

111 Mr. Jenner. How did you and Marina look at the parade, that is as the motorcade went along were you and Marina——

Mrs. Paine. This was not shown on television.

Mr. Jenner. Oh, it wasn't?

Mrs. Paine. To the best of my recollection they had cameras at the convention center, whatever it was, that the President was coming to for dinner, and for his talk.

Mr. Jenner. And was the motorcade being described, broadcast by radio?

Mrs. Paine. The motorcade was being described.

Mr. Jenner. Were you and Marina listening to that?

Mrs. Paine. Well, it was coming through the television set, but it wasn't being shown.

Mr. Jenner. Were you listening?

Mrs. Paine. We were.

Mr. Jenner. Did she show an interest in this?

Mrs. Paine. Oh, yes.

Mr. Jenner. And it being broadcast in English, I assume you were doing some interpreting for her?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Is that correct?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Most of this has been covered, Senator Cooper, and I am getting through pages fortunately that we don't have to go over again.

Senator Cooper. After you knew that the President was dead, and Marina knew, do you know, from that time on, whether she ever went into her room, left you and went into her room?

Mrs. Paine. I would think it highly likely that she did. The announcement that the President was actually dead came, oh, I think around 1:30 or close to 2. I already related that my little girl wept and fell asleep on the sofa. This was a time therefore that Marina would have been putting Junie to bed in the bedroom.

Senator Cooper. Between the time that you heard the President had been shot and the news came that he died, did she ever leave you and go into her room, do you remember?

Mrs. Paine. I don't remember specifically, but you must understand that the little baby was already born. She would have had many occasions, needs to go into the room.

Senator Cooper. Do you know whether she went into the garage?

Mrs. Paine. I don't know.

Senator Cooper. What?

Mrs. Paine. I don't know whether she went into the garage.

Mr. Jenner. You have no impressions in that respect?

Mrs. Paine. None.

Mr. Jenner. Do you recall an incident involving Lee Oswald's wedding ring?

Mrs. Paine. I do.

Mr. Jenner. Would you relate that, please?

Mrs. Paine. One or two FBI agents came to my home, I think Odum was one of them, and said that Marina had inquired after and wanted Lee's wedding ring, and he asked me if I had any idea where to look for it. I said I'll look first in the little tea cup that is from her grandmother, and on top of the chest of drawers in the bedroom where she had stayed. I looked and it was there.

Mr. Jenner. Calling on your recollection of this man, was he in the habit of wearing his wedding ring?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Did this strike you as unusual that the wedding ring should be back in this cup on the dresser in their room?

Mrs. Paine. Yes, quite.

Mr. Jenner. Elaborate as to why it struck you as unusual?

Mrs. Paine. I do not wear my wedding ring. Marina has on several occasions said to me she considers that bad luck, not a good thing to do.

112 I would suspect that she would certainly have wanted Lee to wear his wedding ring, and encouraged him to do it.

Mr. Jenner. In face of the fact that he regularly wore his wedding ring, yet on this occasion, that is being home the evening before, you received this call, you went to the bedroom and you found the wedding ring. Did it occur to you that that might have been in the nature of a leave-taking of some kind by Lee Oswald, leaving his wedding ring for Marina?

Mrs. Paine. It occurred to me that that might have been a form of thinking ahead. I had no way of knowing whether or not Marina had known that he left it. I was not instructed where to look for it.

Mr. Jenner. You were not?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. But Marina did say to you "would you look for Lee's wedding ring?"

Mrs. Paine. No, Odum did.

Mr. Jenner. Odum did.

Mrs. Paine. And of course clearly they would know whether he had it.

Mr. Jenner. Yes, I see. It was not Marina. It was one of the FBI agents. And it is your clear recollection that he was in the habit of wearing that wedding ring all the time. Do you ever recall an occasion when he left the wedding ring at home?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. To your knowledge?

Mrs. Paine. To my knowledge, no.

Mr. Jenner. When you obtained the wedding ring did you examine it?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. I mean did you look inside to see if there was an inscription on it or were you curious about that?

Mrs. Paine. I gave it to Mr. Odum who was with me in the room.

Mr. Jenner. Mr. Odum accompanied you?

Mrs. Paine. Went with me to the bedroom. I am pretty sure he was the one.

Senator Cooper. The morning of the day that the President was killed, did Mrs. Oswald, after she got up, say anything to you about any unusual characteristics of Lee Oswald's taking leave of her that morning?

Mrs. Paine. Absolutely none.

Senator Cooper. Did she talk about him leaving? Did she tell you anything at all about what happened when he did get up?

Mrs. Paine. I have a recollection that must be from her that she woke enough to feed the baby, to nurse the baby in the morning, when he was getting up to go, but she then went back to sleep after that, and she must have told me that. But that is all I know, that she had been awake, and nursed the baby early in the morning, and then went back to sleep.

Senator Cooper. And Lee Oswald went back to sleep?

Mrs. Paine. No, no, Marina went back to sleep.

Senator Cooper. Oh, Marina went back to sleep. Was he leaving then?

Mrs. Paine. I judge so.

Senator Cooper. What?

Mrs. Paine. I judge so.

Senator Cooper. But I mean did she say anything else about him?

Mrs. Paine. No; nothing about his leaving at all.

Mr. Jenner. What were his habits with respect to breakfast? For example on the Monday mornings of the weekends which he visited your home, did he prepare his own, and if so, what kind of a breakfast did he prepare?

Mrs. Paine. I would say his habit was to have a cup of instant coffee only.

Mr. Jenner. And you have a clear recollection that on the morning of the 21st when you went into the kitchen——

Mrs. Paine. The 22d.

Mr. Jenner. The 22d, I am sorry, the 22d you saw a plastic coffee cup or tea cup, and you looked at it and you could see the remains of somebody having prepared instant coffee?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. And that is clear in your mind?

113 Mrs. Paine. Perfectly clear. I looked especially for traces of Lee having been up, since I wondered if he might be still sleeping, having overslept.

Mr. Jenner. Was he in the habit on these weekends of making himself a sandwich which he would take with him?

Mrs. Paine. No; there is no such habit. Perhaps once Marina prepared something for him to take with him, I think more for him to put in his room, partly for lunch, partly for him to have at his room in town and use the refrigerator.

Mr. Jenner. But in any event, on the morning of the 22d you saw no evidence of there having been an attempt by anybody to prepare?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. Sandwiches for lunch or to take anything else in the way of food from your home?

Mrs. Paine. I saw no evidence, and I saw nothing that was missing.

Mr. Jenner. At any time during all the time you knew the Oswalds, up to and including November 22, was any mention ever made of any attempt on the life of Richard Nixon?

Mrs. Paine. None.

Mr. Jenner. Just that subject matter, was it ever mentioned?

Mrs. Paine. Never.

Mr. Jenner. To the best of your recollection did they ever discuss Richard Nixon as a person?

Mrs. Paine. I can't recall Richard Nixon coming into the conversation at any time.

Mr. Jenner. And to the present day—well, I want to include the time that you spoke here a couple weeks ago with Marina, let us say up to and including that day had there ever been any discussion with you by Marina of the possibility of Lee Oswald contemplating making an attack upon the person of Richard Nixon?

Mrs. Paine. No; no such discussion.

Mr. Jenner. Did anyone else ever talk to you about that up to that time, talk to you on that subject?

Mrs. Paine. Well, after it was rumored in the paper, someone asked me if I thought there was anything to it but that is something else.

Mr. Jenner. When you say recently some rumor to that effect that is what you are talking about?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. Up to that time?

Mrs. Paine. Absolutely none.

Mr. Jenner. I take it from your testimony this morning that you have seen and talked with Robert Oswald but once?

Mrs. Paine. And you recall also when he came to pick up her things?

Mr. Jenner. Oh, yes.

Mrs. Paine. Twice.

Mr. Jenner. So you saw him once for the first time in the city police station?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. You talked with him on that occasion. You saw him on one occasion when not so long after that he came out to pick up her things?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. And had some conversation with him then. Have there ever been any other occasions that you have had a conversation with him directly or by telephone?

Mrs. Paine. No. I made one attempt to have such a conversation and drove out to his home in Denton and talked with his wife.

Mr. Jenner. And what occurred then? When was that?

Mrs. Paine. Possibly in January.

Mr. Jenner. Of 1964?

Mrs. Paine. Right.

Mr. Jenner. Why did you go out there?

Mrs. Paine. I had been writing letters to Marina and receiving no reply, and I wanted to go and talk with both Robert and his wife to inquire what was the best way to be a friend to Marina in this situation, whether it was better to114 write letters or better not to, whether she wanted to hear from me or whether she didn't, and knowing that they had seen her, I felt they might be able to help me with this.

I was told by Mrs. Robert Oswald that Robert had a bad cold, and she didn't want to expose my children who were with me, and she and I talked through the screen, and I explained what I wanted. But I didn't feel helped by the visit.

Mr. Jenner. You did not.

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. Did you feel that there was a lack of cordiality?

Mrs. Paine. She apologized for not having me in, and she was friendly and said, "what nice children you have," but it is somewhat hard to communicate through a screen.

Mr. Jenner. That was the only difficulty that you observed, the difficulty in talking through the screen door, the screen of the door?

Mrs. Paine. I felt that she could have asked me whether I cared if my children were exposed. I felt that she preferred for me not to come in.

Senator Cooper. Was Marina staying with them?

Mrs. Paine. I don't believe so. I am pretty certain she was at that time at the Martin's home.

Senator Cooper. Did you get any impression in your talk with Mrs. Robert Oswald that they were not interested in finding out the information that you were asking for?

Mrs. Paine. She offered the opinion that she didn't think there was any particular point to writing letters at this time, but she offered no reason.

Mr. Jenner. By the way, do you have copies of those letters, Mrs. Paine?

Mrs. Paine. At home.

Mr. Jenner. I know now that I will be to see you on Monday.

Mrs. Paine. Monday?

Mr. Jenner. Yes. Are you going to be home on Monday?

Mrs. Paine. I am flying Monday morning. Shall we go together? I am not leaving until Monday morning.

Mr. Jenner. I am going down Sunday night. So may I see those letters on that occasion?

Mrs. Paine. As soon as I get home.

Mr. Jenner. Would you be good enough——

Mrs. Paine. I will have to translate them.

Mr. Jenner. All right.

Mrs. Paine. That will take a while.

Mr. Jenner. With respect to the curtain-rod package, would you be good enough to leave it intact, don't touch it, just leave it where it is without touching it at all.

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Now you have related to us the Texas School Book Depository employment, the ability to operate an automobile. I am going to read a list of names to you, and you stop me every time I read a name that is familiar to you. There are some of the Russian emigré group in and around Dallas. Some of them may not be Russian emigré group people, but some of the members of the staff want these particular persons covered.

George Bouhe.

Mrs. Paine. I don't know him.

Mr. Jenner. I want also your response that you didn't hear these names discussed by either Marina or Lee.

Mrs. Paine. I have never heard that name discussed by Marina or Lee Oswald.

Mr. Jenner. Mr. and Mrs. Frank Ray.

Mrs. Paine. I did not hear that name discussed by either of them. I have since learned from Mrs. Ford that it was to Mrs. Ray's home that Marina went from Mrs. Ford's home in the fall of 1962.

Mr. Jenner. Mr. and Mrs. Thomas Ray.

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. I won't ask you—well, I have Mr. and Mrs. De Mohrenschildt on my list.

115 You have already testified about them.

Mrs. Paine. I have met them once; yes.

Mr. Jenner. Only on that one occasion?

Mrs. Paine. To the best of my recollection; that is right.

Mr. Jenner. John and Elena Hall?

Mrs. Paine. No; I don't know them.

Mr. Jenner. Did you ever hear them discussed by either Marina or Lee?

Mrs. Paine. I have never at any time heard that name.

Mr. Jenner. All right.

I think I pronounce this correctly, Tatiana Biggers?

Mrs. Paine. I am not familiar with that name, and I never heard it.

Mr. Jenner. Mr. Teofil Meller?

Mrs. Paine. I am not familiar with that name.

Mr. Jenner. Lydia Dymitruk?

Mrs. Paine. I met a Lydia who was working as a clerk at a grocery store in Irving, and I had met Marina previously. I am not certain of her last name. I am certain that Marina told me not to learn Russian from her, it was not grammatical.

Mr. Jenner. I see.

By the way, did Marina go out by herself occasionally and shop?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. Mr. and Mrs. Daniel F. Sullivan?

Mrs. Paine. I don't know that name.

Mr. Jenner. Mr. and Mrs. Alan A. Jackson III?

Mrs. Paine. I don't know that name.

Mr. Jenner. Peter Gregory?

Mrs. Paine. I know that name; yes. That name was mentioned by, to the best of my recollection first in my presence by, Marguerite Oswald, who told us that she had just started at the police when I first met her——

Mr. Jenner. I would like that. The first time there came to your attention and your consciousness the name Peter Gregory was when Marguerite Oswald mentioned it at the police station on the 22d of November 1963, is that correct?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; because she had just begun a course of study with him in order to try to learn the Russian language at the public library.

Mr. Jenner. She so said?

Mrs. Paine. She so said. I don't recall having heard the name previously. Although I am not certain.

Mr. Jenner. Paul Gregory.

Mrs. Paine. I would be absolutely certain I had never heard the name from either of the Oswalds.

Mr. Jenner. All right. Is that likewise true of Paul Gregory who is the son I may tell you of Peter Gregory?

Mrs. Paine. I am not familiar with that name.

Mr. Jenner. Mr. and Mrs., I know you are familiar with this name, Mr. and Mrs. Declan Ford. When did you first hear of the name of those people with respect to November 22, 1963, before or after or on that very day?

Mrs. Paine. Mrs. Ford was mentioned to me by name by Marina in the fall of 1963 before the time of the assassination. Marina described to me a party at Mrs. Ford's home, and described the decor of the house and how much she admired Mrs. Ford's tastes, and said that Mrs. Ford had done most of the decorating herself.

Let me just say Marina also told me she had stayed at someone's home in the fall of 1962, but she did not tell me the name of Mrs. Ford in that connection. It came up in this other connection. It is only since the assassination that I learned she had stayed briefly at Mrs. Ford's.

Mr. Jenner. I see.

That is the extent of your information with respect to the Fords at least up to November 22?

Mrs. Paine. Up to the time of the assassination that is the extent of it.

Mr. Jenner. I wish to be certain of this and I don't recall whether I asked you and, therefore, I will risk repetition.

Did Marina and Lee, with you or even without you, visit any people, to your116 knowledge, while Marina was living with you in the fall of 1963, just social visit, go out and make a social visit?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. I meant to include whether either together as a couple or separately.

Mrs. Paine. I recall no such visit.

Mr. Jenner. I think your testimony was when Lee Oswald came home on the weekends, from what you have described he remained on the premises?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. With the possible exception of one instance when he went off and bought some groceries or am I wrong about that exception?

Mrs. Paine. He went with my children to buy some popsicles while I was teaching a student, so I was not at home that time.

Mr. Jenner. All right.

We have a report, Mrs. Paine, and you might help us with it on this subject, of a barber in your community, who recounts to the FBI that in his opinion Lee Harvey Oswald or what he thinks a gentleman who was that man, came to his shop reasonably regularly and had a haircut on Saturday, on Saturdays, and accompanying him was what he judged to be a 14-year-old boy. Do you recall Lee Oswald ever obtaining a haircut over any weekend while he was at your home?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. To the best of your recollection, subject to his being off the premises while you were away shopping, it is your present firm recollection he never left the premises once he arrived, save this one instance that you knew of when he went to get popsicles?

Mrs. Paine. Of course, I was away during that instance.

Mr. Jenner. You were?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. But you anticipated?

Mrs. Paine. Yes. Now, the morning of the 11th of November I was not home from something before 9 o'clock until about 2 that afternoon. I don't know what transpired during that time.

Mr. Jenner. Were there other occasions when you were off ministering to your children, that is taking them to the dentist or something of that nature, on a Saturday or to church on Sunday or to the local park on Sunday, that Lee Oswald may have been, that is periods of time when you would not have known whether he was on or off your premises?

Mrs. Paine. I can think only of grocery shopping which would have been an hour to an hour and a half period, and the two times that I can recall in the Saturday afternoon, on a Saturday afternoon that I went to Dallas to teach one Russian student a lesson. I can't think of any other spaces of time, hours that I was away.

Mr. Jenner. Now, this gentleman also says——

Mrs. Paine. Except the one I have just mentioned, of course, the one of November 11.

Mr. Jenner. He also says that the man he thinks was Lee Harvey Oswald not only regularly came to his shop on Friday evenings or Saturday mornings for a haircut, but that he occasionally drove a station wagon.

Do you know of any occasion to your certain knowledge that Lee drove your station wagon other than the one occasion you have already related?

Mrs. Paine. Absolutely none.

Mr. Jenner. Do you know whether Lee Oswald subscribed to any newspapers?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; I do.

Mr. Jenner. What newspapers, excuse me, did he or did he not subscribe?

Mrs. Paine. Yes. They came to my door. They sat around the house until the weekend when he arrived.

Mr. Jenner. Tell us what newspapers those were?

Mrs. Paine. I noticed a paper which I was told was from Minsk.

Mr. Jenner. Was it in Russian?

Mrs. Paine. In Russian.

117 Mr. Jenner. Did you ever see it in the sense of glancing at it out of idle curiosity if nothing else?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And it was in Russian?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Was there something about it that indicated to you that it came from Minsk?

Mrs. Paine. Marina told me.

Mr. Jenner. She told you. Was it a political tract or was it a newspaper as we understand newspapers?

Mrs. Paine. It was a newspaper as Russians understand newspapers which makes it a borderline political tract.

Mr. Jenner. All right.

In addition to that Russian newspaper from Minsk was there anything——

Mrs. Paine. There was a Russian magazine, small, Reader's Digest size.

Mr. Jenner. The witness is indicating in her hands about a page size of about nine by——

Mrs. Paine. Six.

Mr. Jenner. Nine by six.

Is that about the size?

Mrs. Paine. Something like that, called the Agitator, the name written in Russian.

Mr. Jenner. The word "Agitator" was written in Russian, printed in Russian?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. On the face or cover page of this document, is that true?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Was the entire document in Russian?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Did you have occasion to look at it?

Mrs. Paine. Just the outside.

Mr. Jenner. Your curiosity or intellectual interest never went beyond reading any portion of one of the issues?

Mrs. Paine. It never did.

Mr. Jenner. But you do recall definitely the title page?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Any others?

Mrs. Paine. Crocodile, which is a Russian satirical humor magazine.

Mr. Jenner. Was that in Russian?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Did you have occasion to read it and to observe Russian humor?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. It was not political in character?

Mrs. Paine. Being satirical, of course, it made political reference but it was not particularly political in nature.

Mr. Jenner. It was not designed as a political tract, put it that way.

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. Anything else?

Mrs. Paine. Yes. The Russian magazine Ogonok.

Mr. Jenner. What does that mean in Russian?

Mrs. Paine. It means "bonfire" or "fire".

Mr. Jenner. Was that printed in Russian?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Did you have—did your curiosity lead you to read any portion of it?

Mrs. Paine. Or it may be—let's see, I am not certain in my translation, but go ahead with the question.

Mr. Jenner. You are not certain of your translation of the word?

Mrs. Paine. Of that single word?

Mr. Jenner. Of the title of this document about which you are now speaking?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. But you think it means what you said it meant?

118 Mrs. Paine. It has something to do with fire; yes.

Mr. Jenner. Did you read any portion of any of those issues?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; I did.

Mr. Jenner. And what was the nature of it with respect to whether it was political or otherwise?

Mrs. Paine. It was not political.

Mr. Jenner. What was its nature?

Mrs. Paine. Narrative, special articles of interest to the general population. Marina enjoyed reading this one.

Mr. Jenner. She enjoyed it?

Mrs. Paine. She expressed herself as disliking the Agitator. She interpreted some of the things in Crocodile for me which I had difficulty understanding.

Mr. Jenner. Anything else?

Mrs. Paine. Yes. He subscribed to Time magazine.

Mr. Jenner. Here in America?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And did he read it when he come out on weekends?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; he did. He read that first.

Mr. Jenner. Sat down and read that first.

Did he take the issue away with him when he left every week?

Mrs. Paine. It is my impression he did.

Mr. Jenner. Are there any others?

Mrs. Paine. Yes. He subscribed to the Militant.

Mr. Jenner. Militant. What is the Militant?

Mrs. Paine. It is a paper in English, newspaper style and I would say these next two——

Mr. Jenner. Published by whom?

Mrs. Paine. I don't know.

Mr. Jenner. Socialist Worker's Party?

Mrs. Paine. I have been so told.

Mr. Jenner. You just don't know?

Mrs. Paine. I don't know.

Mr. Jenner. But was it a political tract?

Mrs. Paine. I don't know that.

Mr. Jenner. Did you read it?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. Why didn't you?

Mrs. Paine. I wasn't interested.

Mr. Jenner. Because of the nature of the document?

Mrs. Paine. If I had had time to do much reading, I might have taken an interest but I had no time, insufficient time to do the reading I really wanted to do. He also subscribed to the Worker.

Mr. Jenner. Is that the publication of the Communist Party USA?

Mrs. Paine. I have been told so.

Mr. Jenner. Did you read that?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. Did you observe—have you now concluded the list of newspapers, periodicals or magazines to which he was a subscriber?

Mrs. Paine. I believe so. I might say that my awareness of his subscribing to these last two, the Militant and the Worker, came after the assassination. There was mail awaiting for him for that weekend which he did not pick up on the 21st, and after the assassination, indeed, after Saturday evening, the 23d, when it was announced on television that they had a photograph of Lee Oswald holding two papers. I looked at this pile of mail waiting for him which consisted of these two newspapers, the Militant and the Worker, and I threw them away.

Mr. Jenner. You threw them away?

Mrs. Paine. Without opening them.

Mr. Jenner. Why did you throw them away?

Mrs. Paine. I was pleased to throw away anything I could. I just didn't want it.

Mr. Jenner. Well, my question or query, and I think expression of surprise,119 is activated by what I am about to ask you as to whether you might call that to the attention of the FBI?

Mrs. Paine. Oh, I am sure they knew.

Mr. Jenner. How are you sure they knew?

Mrs. Paine. Because mail stopped coming on the spot, nothing came after the assassination, I was certain it was still coming to some place.

Mr. Jenner. But this was almost instantaneously after you heard a broadcast that a photograph of him had been found in which he had been holding up the Militant.

But you immediately went to see if he had that mail and there was a copy of the Militant and you threw it away?

Mrs. Paine. Why not?

Mr. Jenner. Well, it occurred to me you might have called the FBI's attention to the fact that it had come to the house. But you didn't in any event?

Mrs. Paine. No; I didn't.

Mr. Jenner. Did you report it to the FBI in any of these interviews you had subsequently with them, or did they ask? It is two questions, if you will answer both.

Mrs. Paine. If so, it was quite recently.

Mr. Jenner. When did the other papers begin to arrive? Did I interrupt you before you had a chance to complete your answer to my question?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. The papers different from the Worker and the Militant, when did they begin to arrive at your home?

Mrs. Paine. Well, they began to arrive, I would say, some time after October 4th. That is, of course, my judgment. That is a rationalization.

Mr. Jenner. These magazines and newspapers you have recounted first appeared at your home after Lee Oswald came to Dallas and became employed or came to Dallas to live at your house and to seek employment?

Mrs. Paine. He came to Dallas, he lived in Dallas, but he used my house.

Mr. Jenner. He came to your house?

Mrs. Paine. As a residence, mailing address. Never asked to and I never complained but I noticed, of course, that he was using it as a mailing address.

Mr. Jenner. Up to that time and even though Marina was living with you nothing of that nature came to your home?

Mrs. Paine. What?

Mr. Jenner. Prior to the time that Lee arrived at your home on or about or on the 4th of October 1963, none of these newspapers or periodicals had come to your home, is that correct?

Mrs. Paine. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. Was he a reader of the local newspaper?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. You were a subscriber to what?

Mrs. Paine. To the Irving newspaper and the Sunday Dallas Morning News.

Mr. Jenner. Did he read both of those?

Mrs. Paine. He was very interested in seeing the Sunday paper edition especially. He read both, to the best of my recollection.

Mr. Jenner. He also read the daily papers?

Mrs. Paine. Well, he wasn't there daily.

Mr. Jenner. When he was there he read it?

Mrs. Paine. The Irving paper didn't come out on Saturday, so it was only the Sunday papers.

Mr. Jenner. But there were occasions when you had issues, the Friday issue around or Thursday issue around your home?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall his being interested in back issues.

Mr. Jenner. Are there any letters and communications between you and Marina or between you and Lee Oswald to which you have not called my attention?

Mrs. Paine. There never were any letters of any sort between me and Lee Oswald except unless you could include this English portion to which I have already called your attention in a letter to Marina.

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

120 Mrs. Paine. The only other letters—I have called your attention to all such letters, but I will have to wait until you are in Dallas to see the letters written since the assassination to Marina.

Mr. Jenner. Then I will ask you this question.

You produced for my inspection all of these letters other than the ones that I will see when I am in Dallas which you have identified as having been written subsequent to, subsequently to, November 22, 1963, is that correct?

Mrs. Paine. That is right, you have all the correspondence.

Mr. Jenner. All right.

Mrs. Paine. Wait, we did omit one letter which you have from Marina.

Mr. Jenner. Yes; I have it here.

Mrs. Paine. You have no gaps that I could supply you.

Mr. Jenner. I appreciate the fact I have that letter which we found not relevant and, therefore, I did not tender it. You have tendered to me everything other than those I will see when I reach Dallas.

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. Now, do you recall having a conversation with Dr. Froelich Rainey——

Senator Cooper. May I ask, just a moment, the letter which has not been tendered and which was said not to be relevant——

Mrs. Paine. You have a copy of it.

Senator Cooper. To whom was that letter addressed?

Mr. Jenner. That is addressed to Marina.

Senator Cooper. May I ask, does counsel have a copy of that letter?

Mr. Jenner. Yes; I have a copy of the letter and I have preserved the original and I also have a typewritten copy.

Senator Cooper. It has not been offered as part of evidence?

Mr. Jenner. It has not been offered because it is irrelevant to anything referred to here and it also has a personal remark in it that Mrs. Paine would prefer not to have spread on the record.

Mrs. Paine. A remark not pertinent to the assassination or to the Oswalds but to my marriage.

Mr. Jenner. Is the name——

Senator Cooper. Let me just say for the record I think that will have to be a matter which will have to be considered by the members of the Commission.

Mr. Jenner. All right.

The letter to which you have reference you have exhibited to me, it is in your handwriting and it is in the same condition now as it was, a copy of a letter as I recall?

Mrs. Paine. Which letter are you referring to?

(Short recess.)

Senator Cooper. On the record.

Mr. Jenner. I will do some jumping around because we have some tag ends to cover, I hope in a hurry.

You left New Orleans on September 23, was that in the morning or afternoon?

Mrs. Paine. It was early morning.

Mr. Jenner. Early morning.

Did you drive right straight through to Irving?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. You stopped then the evening of September 23, is that right?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. And where, in Texas?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; it was just over the line into Texas.

Mr. Jenner. Do you remember the name of the town?

Mrs. Paine. No; I don't.

Mr. Jenner. Did you pay for that lodging?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; I did.

Mr. Jenner. By the way, was there ever any financial arrangement agreed on with respect to Marina's stay with you in the fall of 1963 which would involve your giving her $10 a week or any other sum?

Mrs. Paine. No; nothing was said beyond this attempt in the letter that I made to make her feel that she would not be having to ask for every need.

121 Mr. Jenner. We have those letters now in evidence and you testified about them yesterday?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Returning your attention to the time that Mr. Oswald, Lee Oswald, came to Irving in October of 1963, that is October 4, and reported to you he hitchhiked, you recall that?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. He remained overnight the night of the 4th of October, is that correct?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; he did.

Mr. Jenner. Did he return to Dallas the following day?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. Was he driven back to Dallas within the next couple of days by you?

Mrs. Paine. My recollection is that I took him to the bus station around noon on the 7th of October, that is a Monday.

Mr. Jenner. You did not drive him all the way into downtown Dallas?

Mrs. Paine. No; I don't believe so.

Mr. Jenner. Marina has testified, or at least when interviewed by the FBI stated, that you did drive Lee to downtown Dallas.

Mrs. Paine. I have given you all my recollections on this matter, haven't I, for the record?

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mrs. Paine. With——

Mr. Jenner. Even after further reflection last night your recollection is as you have already stated?

Mrs. Paine. That there was an occasion that we were going in with a Russian typewriter on an errand of mine to get that fixed, and I drove him to Ross Street and some crossroad, and he said was near to the employment office.

Mr. Jenner. I see.

What occasion was this?

Mrs. Paine. What day?

Mr. Jenner. Day, yes; please?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall but I would be fairly certain it was a Monday.

Mr. Jenner. And had he been out at your home over the weekend?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; that is my best recollection.

Mr. Jenner. Was it after he had become employed with the Book Depository?

Mrs. Paine. No; he was on his way to the employment office. This was his purpose.

Mr. Jenner. So it was sometime prior to the weekend, was it, that the matter of employment by the Texas Book Depository had arisen?

Mrs. Paine. I would judge that it has to have been on the 14th, which was Monday prior and indeed morning prior to the conversation at Mrs. Roberts about this.

Mr. Jenner. I see.

Mrs. Paine. But I may be wrong about that, but it is my best recollection.

Mr. Jenner. Did the conversation at Mrs. Roberts take place on the 15th of October?

Mrs. Paine. No; on the 14th.

Mr. Jenner. On the 14th. That was what day of the week?

Mrs. Paine. Monday.

Mr. Jenner. Did you drive him into Dallas on that day?

Mrs. Paine. I can't think when else it could have been.

Mr. Jenner. And to the best of your recollection that is probably the day then?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. Did you indicate—did Marina accompany you?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Did she or you indicate any interest in driving by and seeing his apartment or room?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. Was there any discussion at any time, Mrs. Paine, in your home122 or otherwise, with Marina or with Lee, as to the appearance of his rooming house, curtains flooring, what it was like?

Mrs. Paine. The only thing I recall is that he described it as more comfortable than the $7 room he had occupied, told me the cost of it, said that he could watch television and had privileges to use the refrigerator.

Mr. Jenner. But other than that he didn't describe it?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. Was there ever any discussion of any need on his part for curtains, that he liked to brighten up his room or in any respect, any additional appointments?

Mrs. Paine. There was no such conversation at any time.

Mr. Jenner. You are acquainted with Dr. Froelich Rainey?

Mrs. Paine. I am.

Mr. Jenner. He is—what is his position with the University of Pennsylvania. He has a position with the University of Pennsylvania Music Department, has he not?

Mrs. Paine. He is the curator, the head man, as I understand it.

Mr. Jenner. You are acquainted with his wife Penelope?

Mrs. Paine. I am.

Mr. Jenner. Does Penelope speak Russian fluently?

Mrs. Paine. She has a very good command of the language. I think she has not had very much opportunity to use it in speech.

Mr. Jenner. Have you had occasion to inquire of Mrs. Rainey as to whether she might assist you with your Russian studies?

Mrs. Paine. Well, there was never any discussion of assisting me in the role of tutor. She did some years ago loan me a record which I taped that was in Russian, and we visited this fall as part of my trip in the east.

Mr. Jenner. You mean, summer, not fall.

Mrs. Paine. Well, it was, yes, August probably or early September that I saw her.

Mr. Jenner. And you do recall during the course of your summer trip before you went, that is you wound up in New Orleans from that trip?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. So we are talking about the same trip.

Mrs. Paine. That is the same trip.

Mr. Jenner. You did see her?

Mrs. Paine. I did.

Mr. Jenner. Where in Philadelphia?

Mrs. Paine. At her home.

Mr. Jenner. Where is her home?

Mrs. Paine. Her home is not far from the residence where I was staying in Paoli. It is suburban Philadelphia.

Mr. Jenner. Did you have occasion then to report to her that—about Marina?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; I did.

Mr. Jenner. And advise her in that respect, that she was married to an American who is now residing in New Orleans?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Did you say to her that the, I will call the, lady, Marina, but it is stated differently here, appeared to be having marital difficulties with her husband.

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And would you state what your remarks were to Mrs. Rainey in that connection? That is the treatment of Marina by Lee?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall exactly what I said as to the treatment, but that Marina was unhappy, and that I thought she should have some alternative to living with him, and that I would probably, when down there, offer for her to live at my home. She asked me what Michael thought of that, and I said we had discussed it but that Michael and I were not living together, and this was news to Mrs. Rainey, and concerned her deeply.

And I said that I was lonely. I recall one important thing in what I said to Mrs. Rainey, that I never said in conversation to anyone else, that I was worried about offending Lee, that if offended, or if he felt I was taking his wife or not123 doing what he wanted in the situation, that he might be angry with me, and that I didn't want to subject myself or my children to possible harm from him.

She is the only person to whom I mentioned my thought that he might possibly be a person who could cause harm, and there was a very, not a strong thought in my thinking at all, but should be registered as having at least occurred to me, that he could be angry to the point of violence in relation to me.

Mr. Jenner. To the point of physical violence in relation to you?

Mrs. Paine. In relation to me in this situation and I wanted to be perfectly sure before I made any offer definite that he was not, in fact, angry at my offer.

Mr. Jenner. Do you recall visiting your sister Sylvia?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; indeed.

Mr. Jenner. You were there about 3 days?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Did you discuss Marina when you were with your sister?

Mrs. Paine. Very probably.

Mr. Jenner. And in substance did you say to your sister that you intended to go to New Orleans in the course of your trip within about 2 weeks to pick up Marina who was pregnant, she was the wife of an American, and she was to live with you in your home in Texas?

Did you say that much to her?

Mrs. Paine. Well, I probably said it depended on whether she wanted to go.

Mr. Jenner. Other than that have I stated the substance in that connection?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Did you also say to her that Marina wanted to leave her husband who was not supporting her, and was a jerk as far as his husband's role was concerned?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. You did not.

What did you say, did you say anything of similar import?

Mrs. Paine. Similar?

Mr. Jenner. That is, you did imply to your sister, did you, that Marina wished to leave Lee?

Mrs. Paine. No. I would guess that was her interpretation.

Mr. Jenner. What did you say in this connection, please?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall exactly.

Mr. Jenner. Well, did you say, did you express your personal opinion to your sister as to Lee Oswald?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. What did you say in that connection.

Mrs. Paine. My opinion of Lee Oswald was quite negative all the way up to——

Mr. Jenner. This is what you have told your sister now, that is what I want.

Mrs. Paine. I can't recall exactly what I told my sister at all.

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mrs. Paine. I talked with virtually everyone I saw this summer, and there were a great many people, about this friend because it was important to me. I have already testified that I thought Lee didn't care enough about his wife and wasn't being a proper husband in the spring and through the summer, therefore, and it wasn't until I was in New Orleans that I thought he cared at all.

Mr. Jenner. I am just confining myself to this period. During this period as you visited your friends you did have occasion to express a negative opinion on your part with respect to Lee Oswald?

Mrs. Paine. Indeed.

Mr. Jenner. Is that correct?

Mrs. Paine. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. It might have been more or less forceful in that expression of your opinion depending on the person with whom or to whom you were talking.

Mrs. Paine. I would say that my sister's reaction to what I said was more forceful than what I said.

Mr. Jenner. But you did express a negative opinion.

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

124 Mr. Jenner. You testified that—are you acquainted with a Dr. Carl Hyde?

Mrs. Paine. He is my brother.

Mr. Jenner. Did you discuss Marina and Lee with him when you visited there in September of 1963?

Mrs. Paine. I recall particularly an evening discussion with his wife where I told quite a lot about the contact that I had had with Marina.

Mr. Jenner. Did you state to either or both of them that Marina's husband was a Communist?

Mrs. Paine. That is possible. I think it is more likely that I referred to him as a Marxist.

Mr. Jenner. Now, what is the distinction between a Marxist and a Communist in your mind?

Mrs. Paine. Distinction is not clear to me, but I judged that Lee felt there was a distinction as he——

Mr. Jenner. What was your impression as to what Lee thought a Marxist was as distinguished from a Communist?

Mrs. Paine. I have no clear impression.

Mr. Jenner. If I suggested the possibility of, that a Marxist tenet was the change in government by violent means rather than gradual process?

Mrs. Paine. This is not something I ever heard from him.

Mr. Jenner. Was it anything that you ever thought of?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. A concept that you ever had?

Mrs. Paine. In describing Marxism?

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. Did you ever discuss with Lee why he was—he always took care to distinguish to say that he was a Marxist as distinguished from a Communist?

Mrs. Paine. No; I never did.

Mr. Jenner. Did you form an impression as to what he intended to convey by that description?

Mrs. Paine. He intended to convey that he was more pure, I felt, that was my impression.

Mr. Jenner. More pure than what?

Mrs. Paine. Than a Communist.

Mr. Jenner. Did you also say to your brother or your sister or both of them that Lee had not permitted her to learn English, that is Marina?

Mrs. Paine. Very probably.

Mr. Jenner. And that Marina was experiencing marital difficulties with Lee?

Mrs. Paine. Very probably.

Mr. Jenner. Did you ever say that Marina did not share her husband's political views?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; I did.

Mr. Jenner. Excuse me, that is to your brother or sister or both of them?

Mrs. Paine. To the best of my recollection.

Mr. Jenner. Speaking of the marital difficulties, did you ever have the feeling that Marina was in some measure a contribution—contributed toward those, causing those difficulties or a catalyst from which those difficulties resulted?

Mrs. Paine. I didn't have that feeling.

Mr. Jenner. You did not.

What feeling did you have in that direction, assuming you had one?

Mrs. Paine. All the time I knew her or at least any references from her of the matter to their marriage left me with the impression that it was hopeful that though it was difficult they could work out their difficulties.

Mr. Jenner. And that she was desirous of attempting to do so?

Mrs. Paine. She was desirous of attempting to do so though still leaving open the possibility that in time she would have to conclude that she couldn't.

She by no means simply gave in to him on every point or let him walk on her, but that, I would say, is a healthy thing for the marriage rather than anything contributive to any fundamental difficulty in it.

Mr. Jenner. Have you completed your answer?

125 Senator Cooper. May I ask a question?

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Senator Cooper. Did Marina ever indicate to you in any way whether or not she felt, after she came to the United States and saw Lee Oswald in his country in which he had been born and reared, that she found him unintelligent or a person of mean ability, small ability or poor background?

Did she ever have any comment in any way on his being inferior?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall her ever commenting in that way.

Mr. Jenner. Was she disappointed in any way after he returned to the United States?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall her ever saying that.

I had heard Mrs. Ford express such an opinion.

Mr. Jenner. That would be hearsay?

Mrs. Paine. That would be hearsay.

Mr. Jenner. Did you know, are you familiar with the report that appeared in the Fort Worth Press on January 15, 1964, reporting that you had told Marvin Lane that Lee could not have taken the rifle from your garage and gone to practice without your knowledge?

Do you recall that?

Mrs. Paine. I do.

Mr. Jenner. Mark Lane.

Mrs. Paine. It is Mark but that perhaps was in the Fort Worth Press. I recall that.

Mr. Jenner. Did you ever make that statement to a reporter for the Fort Worth Press?

Mrs. Paine. Yes, I did; with slight variation. It always came out a more definite statement in the press than I meant to make it.

Mr. Jenner. What did you say to the reporter then?

Mrs. Paine. I said I did not see how he could have taken the gun from the garage without my knowing it. There were two weekends particularly in question which had been reported in the Press that someone had seen him at a firing range, one being the weekend of the 9th and 10th, and I was home virtually all of that weekend except Monday the 11th as I have already described.

The other being the following weekend, and I didn't see how he could have—the weekend he was not out at my house, I didn't see how he could have come out, taken the gun, gone away without my knowledge, and if the gun had not been in that garage that weekend, I didn't see what the purpose of his coming out the 21st of November was in the situation.

And this is what I told Mr. Tackett of the Fort Worth Press.

Mr. Jenner. Did you also tell Mr. Tackett in addition to, that his reasons for his not engaging in rifle practice that weekend or any other weekend was that he couldn't drive an automobile?

Mrs. Paine. Very probably.

Mr. Jenner. And also that he couldn't have walked that far for rifle practice?

Mrs. Paine. Yes. By that far I mean there is no place you can walk to from my house, not only not to the firing range, but to an open enough place where you could fire. It would be difficult to walk that far.

Mr. Jenner. Where was the firing range at which it was suggested he practiced?

Mrs. Paine. I don't know exactly. It was in the Grand Prairie area, just south of where we are located. But it would be a 15-minute car drive I would expect.

Mr. Jenner. From your home to the firing range. Do you know, did you ever go to the firing range to see where it really was located?

Mrs. Paine. No; I never did.

Mr. Jenner. You are relying on the newspapers, are you?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. When you say thinking of its location you are thinking of the general location of Grand Prairie, Tex.

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Senator Cooper. Were you asked to give your opinion on that?

Mrs. Paine. I think so.

126 Senator Cooper. Why would you submit that as your conclusion that he could not have taken the rifle away, could not have got to a firing range?

Mrs. Paine. The only thing—well—it had been reported in the press that he had been seen at a firing range or someone said he had seen him, Oswald, at a firing range on the weekend of the 9th, 10th, and the following weekend and it seemed to me important to say what I could on the subject if I had any contrary information, and I did any time the reporters asked me about it.

Senator Cooper. When you made a statement about the rifle, were you considering the fact that he had left your house on the morning of the 21st before you got up?

Mrs. Paine. I don't understand the question.

Senator Cooper. The 22d, yes.

Mrs. Paine. Let me say in making such a statement to the Press, I was not implying that I didn't think Oswald had taken a gun from my house on the morning of the 22d. Now, you ask the question again and perhaps I will understand it better.

Senator Cooper. Were you referring to two weekends when he left your house in saying that he couldn't take the gun or were you including also the morning of the 22d?

Mrs. Paine. I was definitely not including the morning of the 22d.

Mr. Jenner. May I proceed, Mr. Chairman.

Senator Cooper. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Do you know of any occasion when Lee and Marina did or might have visited the welfare office of the Salvation Army on your return from Dallas?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. Having in mind all your contact with them during that period, do you have an opinion as to whether that could have taken place, that they did visit the Salvation Army Welfare Office?

Mrs. Paine. It was suggested that this was in the fall of the year?

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mrs. Paine. I don't know of any time that they could have.

Mr. Jenner. Do you recall in your discussion with Mr. Randle when the matter of the Texas School Book Depository possible employment came up, did you make a statement to Mrs. Randle suggesting that she not mention to anyone that Marina was of Russian birth?

Mrs. Paine. After he had been hired I told Mrs. Randle that Lee was worried about losing his job, and asked her if she would mention to Wesley that he was worried about this, and would prefer for it not to be talked about where he worked, that he had a Russian wife as that would, therefore, bring up the subject of his having been in Russia and, therefore, the subject of his having tried to change his citizenship there, and she said to me oh, she was certain that Wesley would not talk about it.

Mr. Jenner. That was the extent of the conversation?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. And its thrust, rather than the cryptic thrust I have given it?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Do you know a Frank Krystinik?

Mrs. Paine. I do.

Mr. Jenner. He is an associate of your husband?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Did you have occasion to say to him at any time that Lee Oswald was not properly taking care of his wife and children?

Mrs. Paine. I could well have given him that impression or given him that impression through Michael. I didn't very often see Frank.

Mr. Jenner. But you could have made that remark to him?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. You made similar remarks to others?

Mrs. Paine. Indeed, I have.

Mr. Jenner. During the time you visited with your mother-in-law, Mrs. Young, did you say to her that Lee wished his wife to return to Russia alone?

Mrs. Paine. I very probably did.

127 Mr. Jenner. And also that he did not wish his wife to learn to speak English?

Mrs. Paine. I would judge that I did.

Mr. Jenner. And that Marina did not wish to return to Russia?

Mrs. Paine. That is correct.

Senator Cooper. While you are getting your papers together can I ask a few questions?

Mr. Jenner. Surely.

Senator Cooper. I refer to November 22 when the police came and you and Marina went into the garage with the police, you testified about that. Then you discovered that there wasn't anything in the blanket.

Now, at a later time, I believe you testified that the police showed Marina a rifle and asked her if she could identify this rifle that she had seen in Lee's possession.

What did she say about it?

Mrs. Paine. She said that her husband's rifle had been a dark gun, that she was not certain that that was the one. That she could not absolutely recall whether there had been a telescopic sight on his gun or not.

Senator Cooper. Was she speaking in Russian?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Senator Cooper. Were you translating?

Mrs. Paine. No, Mr. Mamantov.

Senator Cooper. Were you following what she said?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; indeed.

Senator Cooper. How did she designate the sight? What words?

Mrs. Paine. It is a Russian word that sounded to me like binocular, as I recall.

Senator Cooper. Did she refer to it as a sighting device not in the words sighting device, but did her language in substance as she described it give reference to it as a sight on the rifle?

Mrs. Paine. My judgment is that Mr. Mamantov used the word in reference to it first, you see, and then she simply used the same word.

Asking her was she acquainted with this, and giving the word in Russian, and she said she wasn't certain she had seen that binocular or whatever the word used was on the gun.

Senator Cooper. Now, at any time on the 22d, after she had admitted that she had seen a rifle before, and in your talk with her, either on the way into the police station or any other time, did she say anything more about having seen the rifle before?

Mrs. Paine. No; she didn't.

Senator Cooper. To you? What?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Senator Cooper. Did you know who brought Lee Oswald to your house from Dallas when he would come for his visits?

Mrs. Paine. After he had gotten his job it was my understanding that he came with Wesley Frazier.

Senator Cooper. Did you ever hear him say that anyone else brought him to your house?

Mrs. Paine. No; I didn't.

Senator Cooper. Did he ever say that any fellow worker at the Depository brought him to the house?

Mrs. Paine. Other than Wesley Frazier; no.

Senator Cooper. Did he ever mention by name or any description any of the people with whom he worked at the Depository?

Mrs. Paine. Except for Wesley; no.

Senator Cooper. He never mentioned any one of his fellow workers, associates there?

Mrs. Paine. None.

Senator Cooper. Did he ever refer to them in any way as liking or disliking them as a group or as individuals?

Mrs. Paine. No; he didn't.

Senator Cooper. In your talks with him or in hearing him talk did he ever refer to any persons who were friends of his or associates?

Mrs. Paine. I never heard him mention anyone.

128 Senator Cooper. He never mentioned the name of any person?

Mrs. Paine. Not anyone. He mentioned a friend in Houston as I have already testified, no name and I was wondering whether there was any such friend, I recall that. That is absolutely the only reference I can recall.

Senator Cooper. You said that you told someone that Marina did not agree with his political views?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Senator Cooper. How did you know that?

Mrs. Paine. She told me she wasn't interested in politics. She told me indeed that Lee complained about her lack of interest.

Senator Cooper. That is something different from saying that she didn't agree with them.

Mrs. Paine. Well, she did say that she didn't like his having passed out leaflets in New Orleans. This is still different from saying she disagreed, though. But that is the most I can say.

Senator Cooper. Did she ever tell her what her political views were, if any?

Mrs. Paine. She said she didn't consider herself a person interested in politics. She——

Senator Cooper. Did she ever refer to Lee being a Marxist or a Communist?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall such a reference ever.

Senator Cooper. Did she ever tell you whether or not she was a Marxist or a Communist?

Mrs. Paine. No. I assumed she was not either.

Senator Cooper. What?

Mrs. Paine. I assumed she was not either. She did at one point poke fun at the Party faithful who attended a Young Communist meeting in Minsk, whom she considered a dull lot and the meetings quite dull.

Senator Cooper. I missed the early part of your testimony so you may have testified to this, but I thought that I recalled that you did answer a question addressed to you by someone, a member of the Commission or counsel, in which you said that you were attracted to the Oswalds when you first met them, one, because you wanted to perfect your own Russian, and did you say, too, that you were interested because of the fact that he had been a defector and had returned and it was an unusual circumstance which interested you?

Mrs. Paine. It made him an odd person.

Senator Cooper. What?

Mrs. Paine. It made him an odd person. I was interested in the curious sense of what could have motivated him to do this.

Senator Cooper. Having that interest, didn't you ever talk to him about it, inquire about his experience?

Mrs. Paine. I guess I wasn't interested enough.

Senator Cooper. What led him to do it?

Mrs. Paine. And as I have already testified he always wanted to speak Russian to me, which shortens my tongue. I can't say as much or raise as many questions.

Senator Cooper. Well, did you try to search out the reasons for his defection and the reasons for returning?

Mrs. Paine. No; I didn't.

Senator Cooper. And his political views, his economic views, that kind of thing?

Mrs. Paine. No; I regret now that I didn't take any interest, but I did not.

Senator Cooper. You said that, in answer to counsel that, you either did tell people or probably told them that you believed Lee Oswald was a Communist.

Mrs. Paine. It is my impression I spoke of him as he spoke of himself as a Marxist.

Senator Cooper. And you think, you believe, that has some relationship to communism?

Mrs. Paine. Oh; yes.

Senator Cooper. I think you have stated that you didn't believe it was necessary for a person to actually be a member of the Communist Party to be a Communist in his views?

129 Mrs. Paine. Yes. But that I considered it something less than actually accurate to call such a person a Communist that went on being——

Senator Cooper. Other than the persons you have named in your testimony as having come to your house, was there anyone else who ever came to your house, who talked to Lee Oswald or Marina?

Mrs. Paine. I recall no one other than the people I have mentioned, sir.

Senator Cooper. Knowing that he was as you have described in your own words, a Marxist, were you concerned at all about that or worried about that, as being in your home?

Mrs. Paine. Well, as I have described in testimony, I asked myself whether or not he might be a spy. I was not at all worried about ideology contrary to my own or with which I disagreed, and it looked to me that he was a person of this ideology or philosophy which he calls Marxism, indeed nearly a religion.

But not that he was in any way dangerous because of these beliefs.

Senator Cooper. Thinking now and then that he might be a spy or in the employ of the Soviet Union, were you concerned about the fact that such person who might be a spy or an agent of the Soviet Union was living in your house?

Mrs. Paine. Well, if you recall my testimony I concluded that he was not, and also I was pleased that the FBI had come and I felt that they would worry about that, and that I didn't need to worry about any risk to me of public censure for my befriending such a person.

Senator Cooper. You told about the newspapers and periodicals that he received and read.

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Senator Cooper. Did he also have any books that he read while he was at your house?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall his reading books while he was at my house. He watched television a great deal but I don't recall his reading books.

Senator Cooper. You said that he did not have very ample means, financial means.

Were you struck with the fact that he was able to have these newspapers sent to him from Russia, England, New York?

Mrs. Paine. Yes, I observed——

Senator Cooper. The Communist Worker comes from New York.

Mrs. Paine. Yes, nothing from England, I recall, but he certainly considered these valuable. He was willing to spend money on these, I observed that, yes. It was rather unusual or unlike the rest of his behavior in that he did spend money for these periodicals.

Senator Cooper. Did you ever lend any money to either Marina or Lee Oswald?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Senator Cooper. What?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. Did you ever give them any money?

Mrs. Paine. Cash money; no.

Senator Cooper. What?

Mrs. Paine. Cash; no.

Of course, I bought groceries but that is not what you are asking.

Senator Cooper. You gave no money in the sense that you turned over physical possession of it?

Mrs. Paine. I did not.

Senator Cooper. To either Lee or Marina?

Mrs. Paine. No; not at any time to either one.

Senator Cooper. You did help them in the sense that you provided a home for Marina and on occasion provided food for Lee?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Senator Cooper. I have just one or two more.

You said at one time you came to the conclusion that he wasn't an agent or spy because you didn't think he was intelligent enough.

I believe you said that.

Mrs. Paine. That and the fact that as far as I could see had no contacts or any means of getting any information that would have been of any interest to the Soviet Union.

130 Senator Cooper. Yet he was intelligent enough that he had learned to speak Russian.

Mrs. Paine. His Russian was poor. His vocabulary was large, his grammar never was good.

Senator Cooper. You said that he had, I believe, had the initiative to go to Russia, not as a tourist but as for reasons that he had developed himself, and that he came back when he made up his mind to come and was able to bring his wife.

You knew he moved around rather quickly, didn't you? He was in New Orleans——

Mrs. Paine. In this country?

Senator Cooper. Yes.

Mrs. Paine. No, I knew he had been in Fort Worth and had come to Dallas to seek work and then losing work had gone back to New Orleans and then back to Dallas.

Senator Cooper. What made you willing to have this man, you have said, this very curious man, from all you have described about him, to have him in your house?

Mrs. Paine. He was Marina's husband and I like her, and I, as I have described, was both lonely and interested in learning the Russian language. I would have been happy had he never come out, indeed happier had he not come out on the weekends.

But they were not separated as a married couple nor contemplating such separation, and I didn't feel that this—it was appropriate for him to have to stay away. I did not ask that.

Senator Cooper. Prior to the time that Marina left your home—the day of the assassination, wasn't it?

Mrs. Paine. She left the next day.

Senator Cooper. The next day.

Had you and Marina ever had any disputes or quarrels between yourselves?

Mrs. Paine. I have referred to just one time when she in a sense was taking me to task on the matter of whose property their address was, I just mentioned that, that is the only time I recall.

Mr. Jenner. That is the incident in which you——

Mrs. Paine. Following the November 5th meeting with Mr. Hosty.

Mr. Jenner. Mr. Hosty.

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Senator Cooper. You had said that, I believe you said, prior to the assassination you considered Lee Oswald as being violent or dangerous?

Mrs. Paine. Well, now I have said that the thought crossed my mind once in relation to myself.

Senator Cooper. What caused that?

Mrs. Paine. That he might be violent, because I thought he might resent my stepping in to do for his wife what he was not doing.

Senator Cooper. What made you think he would be violent about it if he wasn't caring about taking care of her?

Mrs. Paine. Well, I wanted to satisfy myself, and I did then. The thought crossed my mind before I went to New Orleans for the second time as I have referred to it in a conversation with Mr. Rainey, before I went to New Orleans and then seeing him and changing my opinion some about him, I felt that he would not be violent or angry with me for this offer, and then proceeded with it, and this is the only——

Senator Cooper. I can understand why a person might be angry about something. But what about him led you to believe that he might be violent?

Mrs. Paine. There was nothing that I could put my finger on. On the contrary my general impression was not of a man who would break out in sudden marked violence. He argued with his wife, and was distinctly unpleasant with her.

Senator Cooper. I believe you said the other day in answer to a question by Congressman Boggs that you held the opinion now that he did fire the rifle at the President.

Mrs. Paine. Yes; I believe that is so but I don't know.

131 Senator Cooper. From this vantage point, is there anything about him now which you think of which seems consistent with the fact that he, that you believe he did shoot the President, President Kennedy?

Mrs. Paine. Well, what has led me to the conclusion that he did shoot President Kennedy is the massive circumstantial evidence that surrounds his relationship or where he was, what he had at the time of the assassination. Perhaps we should get into the matter of motive.

Senator Cooper. In other words, a person's personality, is there anything you can think of now which would change your mind or change the viewpoint that you held previously that he wasn't violent?

Mrs. Paine. No; I still can recall no incident that I saw, nothing or thought at the time, with this small exception of the one reference to Mrs. Rainey that—and that was a conjecture in reference to myself. Nothing that violent or indeed that insane.

Senator Cooper. Was it your opinion that Mrs. Oswald was shaken by the assassination and by the fact that her husband was charged with it?

Mrs. Paine. She was certainly shaken on the afternoon when the policemen were out there, when he was at that time just charged with the shooting of Tippit. I never saw her after he was charged with the shooting of the President.

Senator Cooper. One other question: I think you said when Marguerite Oswald, Lee Oswald's mother, came to your house, and the Life people later appeared, you spoke of that, did you say that both of them, both Marina and Marguerite, seemed to be interested in making some kind of a deal with Life in order to get money?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Senator Cooper. Or were you speaking only of Marguerite Oswald?

Mrs. Paine. I was speaking only of Marguerite Oswald. I could add here that Marina appeared to me to want to be courteous and polite toward her mother-in-law, and wished to go along with whatever wishes Marguerite had on the subject.

Senator Cooper. Has anyone tried to make any kind of a business transaction for your statement or story?

Mrs. Paine. At that time or since?

Senator Cooper. Since.

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Senator Cooper. What?

Mrs. Paine. Yes. The Commission has a copy of an article that was written for Look which was not published and will not be.

Senator Cooper. Has that been testified?

Mr. Jenner. Will not be what?

Mrs. Paine. Published. It is now my property and I don't plan to, I have no plans presently, at least.

Senator Cooper. Just for the record, have you entered into any kind of business transaction by which you would be paid for a story about this assassination?

Mrs. Paine. I will not be paid for any story I write, and I am certain now I don't want to write any such story. I have, however, worked with Miss Jessamyn West, who is an author for an article which will appear in Time and Red Book magazine, or I expect it will. She is writing that, she talked to me.

Mr. Jenner. She approached you on that article?

Mrs. Paine. No one approached me in that article. Was already decided before I was asked. But that is——

Mr. Jenner. Who decided it?

Mrs. Paine. I had implied that I would be willing to do this, but not to anyone I thought was making an offer. This is aside.

Mr. Jenner. This was an offer to help the subject of the interview being interviewed?

Mrs. Paine. All I really should say in clarification here is that there was bad communication between Red Book, Miss West and myself, and she was under the impression that I had agreed to do this before she had in fact been contacted, but then the fact of Red Book and Miss West thinking that this was something I had agreed to I then did agree to do it.

(Discussion off the record.)

132 Senator Cooper. Back on the record.

Have you been paid or promised any monetary consideration for any article that you might write or you might assist someone else in writing about your experiences connected with the Oswalds?

Mrs. Paine. The complete answer to that would be that I received a $300 advance from Look magazine for helping in the writing of that article which will not appear, and that I have been told I will receive $500 from Red Book magazine for helping Miss West in writing that, and if you want, I will tell you what I think about what I want to do with this money but perhaps that is not pertinent.

Senator Cooper. If you want to?

Mrs. Paine. Well, I plan to give it away.

Mr. Jenner. You mean give it to charity?

Mrs. Paine. To charity.

Senator Cooper. That is all I have.

Mr. Jenner. You have referred to a Look magazine article in the preparation of which you have assisted. I have marked as Commission Exhibit No. 460 a document which I received from Mr. George Harris, after you had authorized me to call him and ask for it.

Would you glance through that and verify that that is the article in the final form?

You have examined Commission Exhibit 460. Is that the Look article to which you have made reference in your testimony here this afternoon?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And that article, however, is not one to be published?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. Did you look over that article in this final form and approve it as to text and statements made in it?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; although I don't think the final draft had been done or final approval given before it was decided that it would not be used.

Mr. Jenner. But as this exhibit stands, Commission Exhibit No. 460, the text and statements that are made in there had your approval?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; they are, of course, not all of my words.

Mr. Jenner. Of course, not. The article was written by?

Mrs. Paine. By George Harris, who is a senior editor on Look magazine, and he wrote it from typed copy he had directly as he had taken it from my telling.

Mr. Jenner. So it is, to use somewhat of a vernacular, it is ghost written?

Mrs. Paine. It is ghost written but most of it is my words.

Mr. Jenner. I offer in evidence, as Commission Exhibit No. 460, the document we have just identified.

Senator Cooper. It will be received in evidence.

(The document referred to, heretofore identified as Commission Exhibit No. 460, was received in evidence.)

Mr. Jenner. Do you have an interest in the Russian language as has appeared from your testimony?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Mrs. Paine, are you now or have you ever been a member of the Communist Party?

Mrs. Paine. I am not now and have never been a member of the Communist Party.

Mr. Jenner. Do you now or have you ever had any leanings which we might call Communist Party leanings.

Mrs. Paine. No; on the contrary.

Mr. Jenner. Are you now or have you ever been a member of any groups which you consciously recognize as being, let us say, Communist front groups?

Mrs. Paine. No; I have not and I would be quite certain I had not been unconsciously a member of any such groups.

Mr. Jenner. I take it from your response that you have an aversion to communism?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; I do.

Mr. Jenner. And would be at pains and have been at pains during your adult life, at least, to avoid any association with or any advancement of communism as we know and abhor it?

133 Mrs. Paine. Yes; that is right.

If I may say here, I am offended by the portion of the Communist doctrine that thinks violence is necessary to achieve its aims. I am likewise offended by the doctrine that any means to what is considered a good end is legitimate.

I, on the contrary, feel that there is no justification at any time for deception, and the Communists, as I have observed their activity, have no reluctance to deceive, and this offends me seriously.

Mr. Jenner. In that thinking, violence also impels you against the Communist faith?

Mrs. Paine. It certainly does.

Mr. Jenner. Or political doctrine?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; their espousal of violence repels me.

Mr. Jenner. You have an interest in the Russian language?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; I do.

Mr. Jenner. Now, the members of the Commission, all of them are interested in how you came to have your interest in the Russian language, and they would like to have you indicate when it first arose and under what circumstances and what impelled you to have an interest in the Russian language; start from the very beginning of your life in that connection—that episode in your life?

Mrs. Paine. All right. To be really the very beginning I will start and say I have been interested in other languages before being interested in Russian. I studied French in high school, German in college, and got a tutor to study Yiddish when I was working with a group that spoke that language.

Mr. Jenner. That is the Golden Age group of the Young——

Mrs. Paine. Men and Young Women——

Mr. Jenner. Hebrew Association in Philadelphia?

Mrs. Paine. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. At that time you were employed by?

Mrs. Paine. That organization.

Mr. Jenner. By that organization. And were you doing work in connection with this plan of Antioch College?

Mrs. Paine. No; that was after I had completed my work at Antioch.

Mr. Jenner. I see.

Mrs. Paine. Well, I do believe I did get some credit for that year at Antioch although I had completed my academic work, I was still getting some credit for my job credit, that is.

Mr. Jenner. All right, proceed.

Mrs. Paine. And then I was working with a group of young Quakers, had been indeed for sometime.

Mr. Jenner. Please fix a little more definite time, please?

Mrs. Paine. I began my interest in young Quakers in 1947.

Mr. Jenner. In 1947?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. As quite a young girl?

Mrs. Paine. When my interest also began in the Quaker church.

Mr. Jenner. You were then what, you were 19 years old?

Mrs. Paine. I was going on 15, as a matter of fact.

Mr. Jenner. Going on 15?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. You were going to high school?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Where were you living then?

Mrs. Paine. I was living in Columbus, Ohio.

Mr. Jenner. And you became interested in the Quaker faith then or at least in the Quaker activity?

Mrs. Paine. Both.

Mr. Jenner. And were you a member of the Friends Society, young people's society in Columbus at that time?

Mrs. Paine. I attended the meeting which is the Quaker church in Columbus. They didn't have enough young people to have a society in that particular meeting. But then in college I became active in the national young Friends group.

134 Mr. Jenner. What is the official name of that?

Mrs. Paine. The name at that time was the Young Friends Committee of North America. It included Canada young Friends. And in this connection I was, I served, as Chairman or Conference Coordinator for a conference of young friends that was held in 1955.

Mr. Jenner. Where?

Mrs. Paine. At Quaker Haven, Ind.

Mr. Jenner. Did you attend that?

Mrs. Paine. I did. It was at this conference, toward the latter part, part of really arising out of a discussion of the need for communication and more of it between the United States and the Soviet Union by no means the bulk of the business of this conference, but a small committee of interested people, was working on this matter.

Mr. Jenner. Are these interested young people?

Mrs. Paine. These are all young Friends.

Mr. Jenner. And you were then of what age, 1955. 23?

Senator Cooper. 9 years ago?

Mrs. Paine. 22, going on 23, that is right.

Mr. Jenner. 22 going on 23. Was this in the summer time?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Vacation period?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. I see. By the way, Mrs. Paine, you had been to England, had you not, in some activity of the Friends Society back in 1952?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. That was what meeting did you attend, and as a delegate of what?

Mrs. Paine. I was selected as a delegate of the Lake Erie Association which is the larger group to which my meeting in Columbus belonged.

Mr. Jenner. Your Quaker meeting?

Mrs. Paine. My Quaker meeting. To go as a delegate to the Friends world conference held at Oxford, England, in the summer of 1952. I also attended a young Friends conference held in Reading, England, just before the larger conference. Shall I return now to the conference at Quaker Haven in 1955?

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mrs. Paine. I felt a calling in Friends terminology at that conference.

Mr. Jenner. An impulse, a desire, is that what you mean, a pulling?

Mrs. Paine. More than that, that God asked of me that I study language, and I can't say that it was specifically said what language. This was at the time that plans first began for encouraging an exchange of young people between the Soviet Union and the United States, and I became active with the committee planning that, and from that planning there was an exchange, three Soviet young people came to this country and four young Quakers went to the Soviet Union, and I was very much impressed with the dearth of people in this country who could speak Russian. Here was a need for communication with people we had to live with, although we disagreed with them, certainly disagreed with the government, and the first elements of communication, the language, was not available among most young people, and even among older people in the country. My letter of June 18, 1959, marked Commission Exhibit No. 459-1 contains a statement of my motivation to study Russian. So it was this really that started me upon a course of study in Russian. Then once started, I was more propelled by my interest in the language itself. Shall I describe what training I have had?

Mr. Jenner. Well, please. I want to cover something else before that. I offer Commission Exhibit No. 459-1 in evidence.

The Chairman. It is received.

Mr. Jenner. Was there a movement also in this connection which you are now describing of a pen pal communication between young people here in America and young people in Russia?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Did you have anything to do with that?

Mrs. Paine. There was a subcommittee of this Young Friends Committee of North America which was called East-West Contact Committee.

135 Mr. Jenner. Were you the leader of that committee?

Mrs. Paine. I was not. But I was chairman of a committee of that committee, which was called Correspondence, and I helped make contact between young people in this country who wished to write to someone in the Soviet Union, and an organization of young people in Moscow which found pen pals for these young Americans.

We particularly wanted to go through an official organization so as to be certain we were not endangering or putting suspicion upon anyone, any young person in the Soviet Union to whom we were writing. We felt if they picked their own people that would lessen the suspicion of the Soviet person.

Mr. Jenner. Were you active in that group?

Mrs. Paine. I was chairman of that for sometime.

Mr. Jenner. Did you take part in the pen pal correspondence yourself?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; I did.

Mr. Jenner. And do you recall now the names of the Russian young people or Russian young person with whom you communicate, or sought communication?

Mrs. Paine. I recall I wrote a few letters to a person named Ella, I have forgotten her last name, and I don't believe I have the correspondence still. If I did, I don't any more.

Mr. Jenner. If you once had it?

Mrs. Paine. If I once had it, I don't have it now in my possession, and then that stopped because she stopped writing. I wrote and got another correspondent whose name is Nina Aparina, with whom I corresponded up to last spring, I would say, and I haven't—yes; and I haven't heard anything from her for about a year.

Mr. Jenner. What was the nature of the correspondence, particularly with respect to subject matter?

Mrs. Paine. We discussed?

Mr. Jenner. In this letter period?

Mrs. Paine. We discussed our mutual interest in language. She was a teacher of the English language. She married an engineer during the time of our correspondence.

Mr. Jenner. Russian?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; of course.

Mr. Jenner. Russian citizen?

Mrs. Paine. Yes. We exchanged a magnetic tape recording one time. I sent her one and she sent one with music and readings, hers were music and readings in Russian, and mine was similar in English as part of language study aid.

My last communication said she was expecting a baby last June but I haven't heard anything from her since that communication, as I say, probably a year ago that came.

Mr. Jenner. Now all of your activity, this activity, of correspondence between you and any citizen in Russia, was part of it, originated in the Young Friends group, an activity to supply here a meeting with, communication by, Americans with citizens in Russia, and then latterly in your communication with the lady you have last mentioned, a mutual exchange between the two of you here to improve her English and you to improve your Russian?

Mrs. Paine. That is right. The committee was formed much the same time that our State Department made arrangements with the Soviets for cultural exchange, and I think our purposes were similar but, of course, outside the government.

Mr. Jenner. Now the three Russian students who came over here, did you have any contact with them?

Mrs. Paine. I met them once at an open meeting in North Philadelphia.

Mr. Jenner. Were a number of other people present?

Mrs. Paine. Oh, yes.

Mr. Jenner. And that is the only contact you had with them?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. All right. Proceed.

Mrs. Paine. Except that I read a book that was written by one of these students nearly a year after he had gone back to the Soviet Union which I found most disillusioning, I must say, in which it was pure propaganda.

136 Mr. Jenner. He sought to report what his experiences here were in America?

Mrs. Paine. He sought to report on this trip that he had taken, that we had worked to achieve.

Mr. Jenner. Did you regard him as fair or accurate, that is, what you read?

Mrs. Paine. What I read of the book he wrote was extremely inaccurate and unfair.

Mr. Jenner. Did it misrepresent America as you knew it?

Mrs. Paine. Misrepresented America, certainly.

Mr. Jenner. All right.

Mrs. Paine. Shall I go on now to what I have studied?

Mr. Jenner. Yes. Have you had any formal education in the study of the Russian language?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; I have. I attended a concentrated summer course at the University of Pennsylvania in the summer of 1957 where, during the course of 6 weeks, we completed a first year college Russian text.

Mr. Jenner. What year did you say that was?

Mrs. Paine. I believe that was 1957.

Mr. Jenner. All right.

Mrs. Paine. And then I had difficulty keeping that up, keeping Russian up over the next year, but the following year I was no longer teaching and took a course at Berlitz School of Languages in Philadelphia in Russian, and improved my ability to converse, and it helped me to recall what I had gone through rather too fast in this accelerated course.

I then applied for the summer course at the Middlebury College summer language school in Middlebury, Vt., in the summer of 1959 and attended that 7-week course. At Middlebury they required that you speak nothing but the language you are studying the entire time, both in class and out. This was very valuable though very difficult.

Mr. Jenner. Who was your instructor?

Mrs. Paine. There?

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mrs. Paine. I took three courses. Natalie Yershov.

Mr. Jenner. You were relating, Mrs. Paine, you recalled one of your instructors at Middlebury?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Do you recall the name of any other?

Mrs. Paine. Offhand I can't recall. I recall certainly the director of the school but he was not an instructor of mine.

Mr. Jenner. Did you have a roommate?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; I did.

Mr. Jenner. What was your roommate's name?

Mrs. Paine. Her name was Helen Mamikonian.

Mr. Jenner. Is that correct?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Do you still have contact with her?

Mrs. Paine. It has been a long time since I have written but we have exchanged Christmas cards.

Mr. Jenner. Christmas cards and an occasional letter?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Where does she live?

Mrs. Paine. She lives and works in Boston where she is a teacher of Russian language at Simmons College, as I recall.

Mr. Jenner. Did she at one time live in New York City?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; her home is New York. She spent her high school years there after having immigrated from France, and I believe her mother still lives there, is a tutor for the Berlitz School in Russian in New York.

Mr. Jenner. Her mother is?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. All right.

Now we have your study at Pennsylvania, University of Pennsylvania, and your study at the Berlitz School in Philadelphia, was it?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

137 Mr. Jenner. And your study at Middlebury College. What additional formal or at least let us say semiformal instruction or education have you had in the Russian language?

Mrs. Paine. I then moved to the Dallas area to the place where I presently live in Irving, and then I would guess it was early in 1960 I took up some study again at the Berlitz School in Dallas, completed a course which I had paid for in Philadelphia, and then went on after that with private lessons with Mrs. Gravitis, who has already been mentioned.

Mr. Jenner. Is Mrs. Gravitis also an instructor in the Berlitz School in Dallas?

Mrs. Paine. I met her because she was an instructor for a short time there and I think is yet on call to them as an instructor.

Mr. Jenner. Does that cover your formal education in the Russian language?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; it does.

Mr. Jenner. Now, are you a teacher of Russian?

Mrs. Paine. I have one student whom I teach beginning Russian.

Mr. Jenner. Is that a connection with an established institution?

Mrs. Paine. It began in connection with an established institution during the summer of 1963, at the Saint Marks School of Texas in Dallas, Tex.

Mr. Jenner. And you were the teacher of Russian in the Saint Marks School during that quarter or summer term?

Mrs. Paine. Summer term.

Mr. Jenner. And arising out of that has been your engagement as a tutor, is that correct?

Mrs. Paine. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. Who is your student?

Mrs. Paine. My student's name is Bill H-U-T-K-I-N-S.

Mr. Jenner. Is he, what is he, a young man?

Mrs. Paine. I am sorry, it is H-O-O-T-K-I-N-S.

Mr. Jenner. How old is he?

Mrs. Paine. He turned 15 in the summer.

Mr. Jenner. Is he a native American so far as you know?

Mrs. Paine. As far as I know, yes.

Mr. Jenner. Is it your—has it been also your desired objective on your part to teach Russian as a regular instructor or teacher in the public or private schools?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; I would like to do that.

Mr. Jenner. That is still your hope and desire?

Mrs. Paine. It interests me very much.

Mr. Jenner. And it has been for sometime an objective of yours, has it?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. I will ask you a couple of general questions. First, I will probably repeat this when I examine you in your deposition also, Mrs. Paine, but I desire to have it on this record before the Commission, is there anything that has come to your mind that you would like to relate to the Commission which you think might be helpful to it in its deliberations in consideration of the serious problems and events into which they are inquiring?

Mrs. Paine. There are a few small items I hope we will get into tomorrow.

Mr. Jenner. Would you please state them as to subject matter, at least. Would they take very long for you to state?

Mrs. Paine. I will make an attempt to be brief here. I recall that Lee once used my typewriter to type something else beside this note, is that what you want?

Mr. Jenner. Yes; would you turn and direct your remarks to the Chairman, to Senator Cooper, so we can all hear you and you might speak up a little bit, your voice has been dropping.

Mrs. Paine. I am tired.

I recall that Lee once asked to borrow my typewriter and used it to type something I judged was a letter at sometime prior to this day November 9, when he typed a letter which we have a rough draft. This is probably no use to you.

Mr. Jenner. That is what I call the Mexico letter?

138 Mrs. Paine. That is what you call it, all right.

Mr. Jenner. All right. Give the exhibit.

Mrs. Paine. It is Exhibit No. 103.

Mr. Jenner. Thank you.

Mrs. Paine. I want to know whether you want to inquire of me my account of Secret Service agents having come and asked me, having come out to the house after the assassination to ask me if I had ever seen a particular note which they had. And I have later assumed that this is what has been referred to in the press as the note written by Oswald at the time of the attempt on Walker and if you want I will make it clear all I know in relation to that.

Mr. Jenner. Yes; I recall that incident and I wish you would, please.

Mrs. Paine. And then the other thing is simply to invite the members of the Commission, but if it is a deposition I can't do that then, to feel free to ask me any questions that are not settled in their mind or clear regarding the separation which existed between myself and my husband, if that is troublesome in any way or if there is anything in which——

Mr. Jenner. Mrs. Paine, if that doesn't embarrass you, members of the Commission have voiced to me some interest in that, that is an interest only to the extent they are seeking to resolve in their mind who Ruth Paine is and if I may use the vernacular, what makes her tick, so would you relate that now on the Commission record, please?

Mrs. Paine. All right. I might say that I think it is important and relevant here because if I had not been separated from my husband I would have not as I think I have already testified, made an invitation to anyone to join the family circle, especially in such a small house.

Really, I might ask if you have questions it might be easier for me to answer them.

Mr. Jenner. Perhaps we can bring it along in this fashion. What was the cause of the separation between your husband and yourself, in your view?

Mrs. Paine. In my view, of course, yes. He expressed himself as not really interested in remaining married to me. We never quarreled. We never indeed have had any serious difference of opinion except I want to live with him and he is not that interested in being with me, would be our single difference of opinion.

And in the spring of 1962 I felt that something more definite should be done, and asked Michael why he continued to live with me if he felt that way about it, and he said that it was easier and cost less, and I said that wasn't a good enough reason for a marriage, and asked him to be out of the house in the fall when I returned from summer vacation that year.

Mr. Jenner. That was 1962?

Mrs. Paine. 1962, yes. I would say our marriage is marked both by mutual honesty, that is exceptional, and by a lack of overt or interior strife except that it hasn't quite come together as a mutual partnership.

My mother recently said to me that "If you would just look only at what Michael does there is nothing wrong with your marriage at all. It is just what he says", and I concur with her opinion on that, that he is so scrupulously honest with his own feelings that, and really too hard on himself in a sense, that he states verbally this is not feeling that he loves me or loves me enough, but in fact his actions toward me are totally acceptable to me.

Mr. Jenner. Is he gracious and kind and attentive to you?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Has he always been?

Mrs. Paine. Insufficiently attentive, I would say, but he is always kind and thoughtful.

Mr. Jenner. Have you had any financial differences of opinion?

Mrs. Paine. We have not.

Mr. Jenner. He even during this period of time when you were separated, he voluntarily supported the household and you lived in a manner and style that suited you or to which you had become accustomed?

Mrs. Paine. Yes, that is right.

Mr. Jenner. You had no arguments about matters of that nature?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

139 Mr. Jenner. Your husband has returned to your home?

Mrs. Paine. He is living there now.

Mr. Jenner. How long has that been?

Mrs. Paine. He has been staying there since the night of November 22. He didn't move his belongings in until the middle of the following week.

Mr. Jenner. Would you say this is a reconciliation?

Mrs. Paine. I can't say that.

Mr. Jenner. You cannot.

Do you wish to say any more in the statement of yours?

Mrs. Paine. Not unless you have questions. I think it is an accurate statement of the marriage.

Mr. Jenner. All right.

What brought this forth was my asking you if you had anything you would like to bring before the Commission.

Mrs. Paine. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. Are there any others?

Mrs. Paine. I can think of nothing else.

Mr. Jenner. To the best of your present recollection are the statements and the testimony you gave, you have given so far, before the Commission consistent with statements you have given to the FBI, to Secret Service, to magazine reporters, editors, to anyone?

Mrs. Paine. The statements I have given here are fully consistent with anything I have said before except that the statement here has been much fuller than any single previous statement.

Mr. Jenner. And you have testified to matters and things before the Commission about which, which you did not relate or even had occasion to relate in your mind, at least, to FBI agents, to Secret Service agents and to the others that you have identified in general terms?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Mrs. Paine, you and I had the opportunity, you afforded me the privilege of speaking with you before your testimony commenced, before the Commission. And also I think the first day of your testimony you were gracious enough to return here to the Commission room and we spent several hours talking?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. As a matter of fact, we left around 12:30, a quarter of one in the morning, did we not?

Mrs. Paine. Yes, that is right, we did.

Mr. Jenner. Now, recalling back to those periods of conferences with me, do you have any feeling or notion whatsoever that any of your testimony before the Commission was in any degree whatsoever, inconsistent with anything you related to me?

Mrs. Paine. Oh, no; I don't think so, not in any way.

Mr. Jenner. Not in any way. Do you have any feeling whatsoever that during the course of my conferences with you, outside this Commission, that I influenced or sought to shape your testimony in any respect?

Mrs. Paine. No. Clearly I felt no influence from you.

Mr. Jenner. All of the statements that you related to me were free and voluntary on your part, and not given under any coercion, light or heavy, as the case might be, on my part.

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. Mr. Chairman, there are some additional matters we wish to examine the witness about and Representative Ford has given me a rather long list of questions he asked me to cover. He regretted that was necessary because of his enforced absence, and Mrs. Paine has agreed that she would be available in the morning, and I may examine her by way of deposition before a reporter under oath, and with that understanding of the Commission, of you, Mr. Chairman, I would at this moment as far as the staff is concerned, close the formal testimony of Mrs. Paine before the Commission, with advice to you, sir, that tomorrow morning I will cover additional matters by way of deposition.

Senator Cooper. As I understand the matters you will go into by deposition will not be any new evidence in the sense of substance but more to——

140 Mr. Jenner. I can tell you what they are, it will be her background, some of which she has now given in regard to her study of the Russian language.

More formal proof of her calendar, and her address book. Also her general background which I have already mentioned. Some correspondence between herself and her mother, and the items that Mrs. Paine has now mentioned she would like to relate herself.

Mrs. Paine. One of which we took care of already.

Mr. Jenner. One of which we took care of. We will cover those and I was going to ask her questions tomorrow, some of which we have already covered of Lee Harvey Oswald's personality and habits and actions.

I am going to ask here about Mrs. Shirley Martin, who has appeared on the scene since the assassination, and appears to be a self-appointed investigator, and to the extent that there has been any contact between Mrs. Paine and Mrs. Shirley Martin, and then inquire, I may not even do this because we have covered a very great deal of the conversations and discussions between Marina and Mrs. Paine on various possible subjects, and I can see from my list we have covered many of them already.

Senator Cooper. Let it be ordered that evidence will be taken this way, with this reservation, of course, if the Commission determines after studying the deposition that it would be necessary for her to be called again, you would be willing to come again before the Commission to testify.

Mrs. Paine. I would certainly be willing if there is any need for my coming.

Mr. Jenner. In addition to this, Mr. Chairman, as I think already appears of record, I will come to Mrs. Paine's home in Irving, Tex., sometime on Monday or Monday evening or if she finds it more convenient, on Tuesday of next week to inquire of her with a court reporter present relative to the curtain rod package, and I also will make a tour of her home and as we move about her home the reporter will record the conversation between us, questions and answers.

Senator Cooper. Are there any further questions?

Mr. Jenner. That is all. Thank you, sir.

Senator Cooper. All right, then we will stand in recess subject to the call of the Chairman of the Commission.

(Translations of letters introduced in evidence in the course of Mrs. Paine's testimony are reproduced in the exhibit volumes.)


Tuesday, March 24, 1964
TESTIMONY OF HOWARD LESLIE BRENNAN, BONNIE RAY WILLIAMS, HAROLD NORMAN, JAMES JARMAN, JR., AND ROY SANSOM TRULY

The President's Commission met at 9 a.m., on March 24, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C.

Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Representative Gerald R. Ford, John J. McCloy, and Allen W. Dulles, members.

Also present were J. Lee Rankin, general counsel; Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel; David W. Belin, assistant counsel; Norman Redlich, assistant counsel; and Charles Murray, observer.

TESTIMONY OF HOWARD LESLIE BRENNAN

The Chairman. The Commission will come to order.

Mr. Brennan, in keeping with our statements, so you will know just what the purpose of the session is, I will read a little statement to you.

The purpose of today's hearing is to hear the testimony of Howard Leslie Brennan, Bonnie Ray Williams, James Jarman, Jr., Harold Norman, Roy S. Truly.

141 These witnesses were all in the vicinity of the Texas School Book Depository Building at the time of the assassination of President John F. Kennedy. They will be asked to provide the Commission with their knowledge of the facts concerning the assassination of President Kennedy.

Would you please rise and be sworn?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give before this Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. Brennan. I do.

The Chairman. You may be seated, Mr. Brennan.

Mr. Belin will conduct the interrogation.

Mr. Belin. Mr. Brennan, will you state your name for the record, please?

Mr. Brennan. Howard Leslie Brennan.

Mr. Belin. Where do you live?

Mr. Brennan. 6814 Woodward, Dallas 27.

Mr. Belin. And how old a man are you?

Mr. Brennan. 45.

Mr. Belin. Are you married?

Mr. Brennan. Yes.

Mr. Belin. Family?

Mr. Brennan. Two children. One grandson.

Mr. Belin. What is your occupation, Mr. Brennan?

Mr. Brennan. Steamfitter.

Mr. Belin. And for whom are you employed, or by whom are you employed?

Mr. Brennan. Wallace and Beard.

Mr. Belin. Is that a construction company?

Mr. Brennan. Yes.

Mr. Belin. And let me ask you this: How long have you been a steamfitter?

Mr. Brennan. Since 1943, I believe.

Mr. Belin. Do you work for one employer, or do you go from job to job?

Mr. Brennan. I go from job to job.

Mr. Belin. Is that at your direction or at the direction of any union?

Mr. Brennan. Local 100 in Dallas.

Mr. Belin. Mr. Brennan, where were you on the early part of the afternoon of November 22, 1963, say around noon or so?

Mr. Brennan. I left a position behind the Book Store, which is a leased part of Katy Yards, which we have fabrication for pipe for the Republic Bank Building. At 12 o'clock I went to the cafeteria on the corner of Main and Record. I believe that is it.

Mr. Belin. That would be at Main and Record Streets in Dallas?

Mr. Brennan. Yes.

Mr. Belin. And did you have your lunch there?

Mr. Brennan. Yes.

Mr. Belin. And then after lunch, where did you go?

Mr. Brennan. I finished lunch and I glanced at a clock—I don't know exactly where the clock is located—and noticed it was 12:18. So I thought I still had a few minutes, that I might see the parade and the President.

I walked to the corner of Houston and Elm.

Mr. Belin. What route did you take to get to Houston and Elm?

Mr. Brennan. I went west on Main.

Mr. Belin. You went west on Main from Record Street to——

Mr. Brennan. Houston.

Mr. Belin. Houston

Mr. Brennan. And on the east side of Houston, I walked to Elm.

Mr. Belin. All right.

Mr. Brennan. Crossed the street to the southwest corner of Houston and Elm.

Mr. Belin. Do you have any estimate about how long it took you to get there?

Mr. Brennan. A possibility I would say more or less 4 minutes.

Mr. Belin. And then what did you do when you got to the southwest corner of Houston and Elm?

Mr. Brennan. I stayed around a couple of minutes. There was a man having an epileptic fit, a possibility of 20 yards east—south of this corner. And they142 were being attended by some civilians and officers, and I believe an ambulance picked him up.

Mr. Belin. All right.

Mr. Brennan. And I walked over to this retainer wall of this little park pool and jumped up on the top ledge.

Mr. Belin. You jumped up on the retaining wall?

Mr. Brennan. Yes.

Mr. Belin. Now, I hand you what has been marked as Exhibit 477.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 477 for identification.)

Mr. Belin. I ask you to state if you know what this is.

Mr. Brennan. Yes.

Mr. Belin. Will you please tell the Commission what this is?

Mr. Brennan. That is the Book Store at the corner of Houston and Elm.

Mr. Belin. By the Book Store, you mean the Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mr. Brennan. Right.

Mr. Belin. Now, do you know what——

Mr. Brennan. That is the retainer wall which I perched on.

Mr. Belin. All right. This is the retaining wall on which you perched. I believe that this is actually you sitting on this retaining wall in a picture that we took in Dallas pursuant to your showing us where you were November 22; we took that picture on this past Friday.

Mr. Brennan. That is correct.

Mr. Belin. Which would be the 20th of March. Is that correct?

Mr. Brennan. That is correct.

Mr. Belin. All right. I hand you now what the reporter has marked as Commission Exhibit 478.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 478 for identification.)

Mr. Belin. I ask you to state, if you know, what this is.

Mr. Brennan. Yes. That is the retaining wall and myself sitting on it at Houston and Elm.

Mr. Belin. You remember that the photographer was standing on the front steps of the Texas School Book Depository when that picture was taken on the 20th of March?

Mr. Brennan. Yes; I do.

Mr. Belin. And the camera is pointed in what direction?

Mr. Brennan. South.

Representative Ford. Are those the positions where you were sitting on November 22?

Mr. Brennan. Yes, sir.

Representative Ford. At about 12——

Mr. Brennan. From about 12:22 or 12:24 until the time of the assassination.

Representative Ford. In both pictures, that is a true——

Mr. Brennan. True location.

Representative Ford. True location of where you were sitting November 22d?

Mr. Brennan. Yes, sir.

Mr. Belin. Mr. Brennan, I am going to hand you a negative, which has been marked as Commission Exhibit 479.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 479 for identification.)

Mr. Belin. This appears to be a negative from a moving picture film. And I will hand you a magnifying glass—the negative has been enlarged. This negative appears to be a picture of the Presidential motorcade on the afternoon of November 22d. I ask you to state if you can find yourself in the crowd in the background in that picture.

Mr. Brennan. Yes. I am sitting at the same position as I was in the picture taken Friday, with the exception, I believe, my hand is resting on the wall, and Friday my hand, I believe, was resting on my leg.

Mr. Belin. Well, your legs in this picture, Exhibit 479, I notice, are not dangling on the front side there, is that correct?

143 Mr. Brennan. No.

Mr. Belin. What were you wearing on November 22d? What clothes were you wearing?

Mr. Brennan. Gray khaki work clothes, with a dark gray hard helmet.

Mr. Belin. Your head here appears to be the highest in the group, a little bit left of center in the upper part of the picture, is that correct?

Mr. Brennan. Yes, sir.

Mr. Belin. Does this scene depict the scene as you recollect it on that day, November 22d?

Mr. Brennan. It does.

Mr. Belin. Mr. Brennan, could you please tell the Commission what happened from the time you sat on that retaining wall, what you saw?

Mr. Brennan. Well, I was more or less observing the crowd and the people in different building windows, including the fire escape across from the Texas Book Store on the east side of the Texas Book Store, and also the Texas Book Store Building windows. I observed quite a few people in different windows. In particular, I saw this one man on the sixth floor which left the window to my knowledge a couple of times.

Mr. Belin. Now, you say the window on the sixth floor. What building are you referring to there?

Mr. Brennan. That is the Texas Book Store.

Mr. Belin. I am going to ask you to circle on Exhibit 477 the particular window that you said you saw a man leave and come back a couple of times.

Mr. Brennan. Well, I am confused here, the way this shows. But I believe this is the sixth floor, the way those windows are built there right at the present. I am confused whether this is the same window.

Mr. Belin. You mean because some windows are open below it?

Mr. Brennan. No. The way the building is built, it seems like this is more or less a long window with a divider in the middle.

Mr. Belin. Here is a marking pencil. Will you just mark the window that you believe you saw the man.

All right.

And do you want to put a letter "A", if you would, by that.

All right, now you have marked on Commission Exhibit 477 a circle with the letter "A" to show the window that you saw a man in, I believe you said, at least two times come back and forth.

Mr. Brennan. Yes.

Mr. Belin. Did you see any other people in any other windows that you can recollect?

Mr. Brennan. Not on that floor.

There was no other person on that floor that ever came to the window that I noticed.

There were people on the next floor down, which is the fifth floor, colored guys. In particular, I only remember two that I identified.

Mr. Belin. Do you want to mark the window with the circle that you believe you saw some Negro people on the fifth floor. Could you do that with this marking pencil on Exhibit 477, please?

Mr. Brennan. The two that I identified, I believe, was in this window.

Mr. Belin. You want to put a "B" on that one?

Now, after you saw the man—well, just tell what else you saw during that afternoon.

Mr. Brennan. Well, as the parade came by, I watched it from a distance of Elm and Main Street, as it came on to Houston and turned the corner at Houston and Elm, going down the incline towards the railroad underpass. And after the President had passed my position, I really couldn't say how many feet or how far, a short distance I would say, I heard this crack that I positively thought was a backfire.

Mr. Belin. You thought it was backfire?

Mr. Brennan. Of a motorcycle.

Mr. Belin. Then what did you observe or hear?

Mr. Brennan. Well, then something, just right after this explosion, made me think that it was a firecracker being thrown from the Texas Book Store. And144 I glanced up. And this man that I saw previous was aiming for his last shot.

Mr. Belin. This man you saw previous? Which man are you talking about now?

Mr. Brennan. The man in the sixth story window.

Mr. Belin. Would you describe just exactly what you saw when you saw him this last time?

Mr. Brennan. Well, as it appeared to me he was standing up and resting against the left window sill, with gun shouldered to his right shoulder, holding the gun with his left hand and taking positive aim and fired his last shot. As I calculate a couple of seconds. He drew the gun back from the window as though he was drawing it back to his side and maybe paused for another second as though to assure hisself that he hit his mark, and then he disappeared.

And, at the same moment, I was diving off of that firewall and to the right for bullet protection of this stone wall that is a little higher on the Houston side.

Mr. Belin. Well, let me ask you. What kind of a gun did you see in that window?

Mr. Brennan. I am not an expert on guns. It was, as I could observe, some type of a high-powered rifle.

Mr. Belin. Could you tell whether or not it had any kind of a scope on it?

Mr. Brennan. I did not observe a scope.

Mr. Belin. Could you tell whether or not it had one? Do you know whether it did or not, or could you observe that it definitely did or definitely did not, or don't you know?

Mr. Brennan. I do not know if it had a scope or not.

Mr. Belin. I believe you said you thought the man was standing. What do you believe was the position of the people on the fifth floor that you saw—standing or sitting?

Mr. Brennan. I thought they were standing with their elbows on the window sill leaning out.

Mr. Belin. At the time you saw this man on the sixth floor, how much of the man could you see?

Mr. Brennan. Well, I could see—at one time he came to the window and he sat sideways on the window sill. That was previous to President Kennedy getting there. And I could see practically his whole body, from his hips up. But at the time that he was firing the gun, a possibility from his belt up.

Mr. Belin. How much of the gun do you believe that you saw?

Mr. Brennan. I calculate 70 to 85 percent of the gun.

Mr. Belin. Do you know what direction the gun was pointing.

Mr. Brennan. Yes.

Mr. Belin. And what direction was the gun pointing when you saw it?

Mr. Brennan. At somewhat 30 degrees downward and west by south.

Mr. Belin. Do you know down what street it was pointing?

Mr. Brennan. Yes. Down Elm Street toward the railroad underpasses.

Mr. Belin. Now, up to the time of the shots, did you observe anything else that you have not told us about here that you can think of right now?

Mr. Brennan. Well, not of any importance. I don't remember anything else except——

Mr. Belin. Let me ask you this. How many shots did you hear?

Mr. Brennan. Positively two. I do not recall a second shot——

Mr. Belin. By a second shot, you mean a middle shot between the time you heard the first noise and the last noise?

Mr. Brennan. Yes; that is right. I don't know what made me think that there was firecrackers throwed out of the Book Store unless I did hear the second shot, because I positively thought the first shot was a backfire, and subconsciously I must have heard a second shot, but I do not recall it. I could not swear to it.

Mr. Belin. Could you describe the man you saw in the window on the sixth floor?

Mr. Brennan. To my best description, a man in his early thirties, fair complexion, slender but neat, neat slender, possibly 5-foot 10.

Mr. Belin. About what weight?

Mr. Brennan. Oh, at—I calculated, I think, from 160 to 170 pounds.

Mr. Belin. A white man?

145 Mr. Brennan. Yes.

Mr. Belin. Do you remember what kind of clothes he was wearing?

Mr. Brennan. Light colored clothes, more of a khaki color.

Mr. Belin. Do you remember the color of his hair?

Mr. Brennan. No.

Mr. Belin. Now, I believe you said that after the last shot you jumped off this masonry structure on which you were sitting. Why did you jump off?

Mr. Brennan. Well, it occurred to me that there might be more than one person, that it was a plot which could mean several people, and I knew beyond reasonable doubt that there were going to be bullets flying from every direction.

Mr. Belin. Then what did you do after that? Or what did you see?

Mr. Brennan. I observed to my thinking that they were directing their search towards the west side of the building and down Houston Street.

Mr. Belin. When you say "they", who do you mean?

Mr. Brennan. Law-enforcement officers.

Mr. Belin. By the west side of the building, you mean towards the underpass or railroad tracks?

Mr. Brennan. Yes.

Mr. Belin. After you saw that, what did you do?

Mr. Brennan. I knew I had to get to someone quick to tell them where the man was. So I ran or I walked—there is a possibility I ran, because I have a habit of, when something has to be done in a hurry, I run. And there was one officer standing at the corner of the Texas Book Store on the street. It didn't seem to me he was going in any direction. He was standing still.

Mr. Belin. What did you do or what did you say to him?

Mr. Brennan. I asked him to get me someone in charge, a Secret Service man or an FBI. That it appeared to me that they were searching in the wrong direction for the man that did the shooting.

And he was definitely in the building on the sixth floor.

I did not say on the sixth floor. Correction there.

I believe I identified the window as one window from the top.

Mr. Belin. All right.

Mr. Brennan. Because, at that time, I did not know how many story building it was.

Representative Ford. But you did say to the policeman it was a window on the second floor from the top?

Mr. Brennan. Right.

Mr. Belin. And then what happened?

Mr. Brennan. He——

The Chairman. May I ask there. By the second floor from the top, do you mean the one directly underneath the top floor?

Mr. Brennan. Underneath the top floor, excluding the roof, yes, sir.

Mr. Belin. And then what happened, sir?

Mr. Brennan. He said, "Just a minute." And he had to give some orders or something on the east side of the building on Houston Street. And then he had taken me to, I believe, Mr. Sorrels, an automobile sitting in front of the Texas Book Store.

Mr. Belin. And then what happened there?

Mr. Brennan. I related my information and there was a few minutes of discussion, and Mr. Sorrels had taken me then across the street to the sheriff's building.

Mr. Belin. Did you describe the man that you saw in the window?

Mr. Brennan. Yes; I believe I did.

Mr. Belin. Mr. Brennan, later that afternoon, or the next day, did you have occasion to go down to the Dallas Police Station to try to identify any person?

Mr. Brennan. That evening, the Secret Service picked me up, Mr. Patterson, I believe, at 6 o'clock, at my home, and taken me to the Dallas Police Station.

Mr. Belin. All right. Could you tell us what happened there, please?

Mr. Brennan. If I might add a part, that I left out a couple of minutes ago——

Mr. Belin. Go right ahead, sir.

146 Mr. Brennan. As Mr. Sorrels and some more men were discussing this, I mentioned these two colored guys.

Mr. Belin. Yes.

Mr. Brennan. Came out of the book store, running down the steps.

Mr. Belin. You mean the two——

Mr. Brennan. That I had previously saw on the fifth floor.

Mr. Belin. All right.

Mr. Brennan. And I immediately identified these two boys to the officers and Mr. Sorrels as being on the fifth floor.

Mr. Belin. Do you have anything else you wish to add now?

Mr. Brennan. No; that concludes that.

Mr. McCloy. They were running out of the building?

Mr. Brennan. They came running down the front steps of the building on the Elm street side.

Mr. McCloy. Did they then disappear in the crowd?

Mr. Brennan. No; they took them in custody, I suppose, and questioned them.

Representative Ford. The law enforcement officers stopped them, and you did what, then?

Mr. Brennan. No. I believe Mr. Sorrels or the Secret Service man stopped them.

I am not sure, but I don't believe an officer of the police department stopped them.

Representative Ford. But you were standing on the steps of the Texas School Book Depository Building talking to whom?

Mr. Brennan. Mr. Sorrels and another man, and I believe there was an officer standing there, a police officer.

Representative Ford. And these two Negroes came out of the front door?

Mr. Brennan. Yes, sir.

Representative Ford. And you did what then?

Mr. Brennan. I——

Representative Ford. Spoke to Mr. Sorrels?

Mr. Brennan. Spoke to Mr. Sorrels, and told him that those were the two colored boys that was on the fifth floor, or on the next floor underneath the man that fired the gun.

Representative Ford. You positively identified them?

Mr. Brennan. I did, at that time.

Mr. Belin. Is there anything else now up to the time you got down to the Dallas Police Station?

Mr. Brennan. Well, nothing except that up until that time, through my entire life, I could never remember what a colored person looked like if he got out of my sight. And I always thought that if I had to identify a colored person I could not. But by coincidence that one time I did recognize those two boys.

Representative Ford. Did those two Negro men say in your presence that they had been in the fifth floor window?

Mr. Brennan. I don't recall. I don't recall.

Mr. Belin. Is there anything else, sir, now up to the time you got down to the Dallas Police Station?

Mr. Brennan. On Friday evening, you are speaking of?

Mr. Belin. Yes.

Mr. Brennan. No.

Mr. Belin. All right.

What happened when you got down to the Dallas Police Station?

Mr. Brennan. Mr. Patterson, if I am correct in the Secret Service that picked me up, directed me to go to the fourth floor, a certain room on that floor.

(At this point, Mr. Warren and Representative Ford withdrew from the hearing room.)

Mr. Brennan. I later was introduced to several men—Captain Fritz in Mr. Sorrels' office, and several more men. I do not remember their names.

Mr. Belin. All right.

Before I go any further, do you remember the name of the officer you talked to in front of the School Book Depository Building?

Mr. Brennan. I don't believe I ever heard it. I do not remember his name.

147 Mr. Belin. Are you sure of the names of the Secret Service men you talked to? I believe you mentioned the name Sorrels.

Mr. Brennan. I do not know the other man's name.

Mr. Belin. You believe one of them was Sorrels?

Mr. Brennan. I believe one of them was Sorrels.

Mr. Belin. I think for the record——

Mr. Brennan. That is at the building.

Mr. Belin. Yes, sir.

I think we should offer and introduce Commission Exhibits 477, 478, and 479.

Mr. Dulles. The Chief Justice has asked me to preside in his absence this morning.

They shall be admitted.

(The documents heretofore marked for identification as Commission Exhibits Nos. 477, 478 and 479, were received in evidence.)

Mr. Belin. By the way, Mr. Brennan, I note that you have glasses with you here today.

Were you wearing glasses at the time of the incident that you related here?

Mr. Brennan. No. I only use glasses to see fine print and more especially the Bible and blueprint.

Mr. Belin. And have you had your eyes checked within the past 2 or 3 years?

Mr. Brennan. These here were prescriptioned, I believe, a possibility less than a year before the incident.

Mr. Dulles. Does that mean you are farsighted?

Mr. Brennan. Yes.

(At this point, Representative Ford entered the hearing room.)

Mr. Belin. Has there been anything that has happened since the time of November 22, 1963, that has changed your eyesight in any way?

Mr. Brennan. Yes, sir.

Mr. Belin. What has happened?

Mr. Brennan. The last of January I got both eyes sandblasted.

Mr. Belin. This is January of 1964?

Mr. Brennan. Yes. And I had to be treated by a Doctor Black, I believe, in the Medical Arts Building, through the company. And I was completely blind for about 6 hours.

Mr. Belin. How is your eyesight today?

Mr. Brennan. He says it is not good.

Mr. Belin. But this occurred January of this year, is that correct?

Mr. Brennan. Yes.

Mr. Belin. Now, taking you down to the Dallas Police Station, I believe you said you talked to Captain Fritz. And then what happened?

Mr. Brennan. Well, I was just more or less introduced to him in Mr. Sorrels' room, and they told me they were going to conduct a lineup and wanted me to view it, which I did.

Mr. Belin. Do you remember how many people were in the lineup?

Mr. Brennan. No; I don't. A possibility seven more or less one.

Mr. Belin. All right.

Did you see anyone in the lineup you recognized?

Mr. Brennan. Yes.

Mr. Belin. And what did you say?

Mr. Brennan. I told Mr. Sorrels and Captain Fritz at that time that Oswald—or the man in the lineup that I identified looking more like a closest resemblance to the man in the window than anyone in the lineup.

Mr. Belin. Were the other people in the lineup, do you remember—were they all white, or were there some Negroes in there, or what?

Mr. Brennan. I do not remember.

Mr. Belin. As I understand your testimony, then, you said that you told him that this particular person looked the most like the man you saw on the sixth floor of the building there.

Mr. Brennan. Yes, sir.

Mr. Belin. In the meantime, had you seen any pictures of Lee Harvey Oswald on television or in the newspapers?

148 Mr. Brennan. Yes, on television.

Mr. Belin. About when was that, do you believe?

Mr. Brennan. I believe I reached home quarter to three or something of that, 15 minutes either way, and I saw his picture twice on television before I went down to the police station for the lineup.

Mr. Belin. Now, is there anything else you told the officers at the time of the lineup?

Mr. Brennan. Well, I told them I could not make a positive identification.

Mr. Belin. When you told them that, did you ever later tell any officer or investigating person anything different?

Mr. Brennan. Yes.

Mr. Belin. When did that happen?

Mr. Brennan. I believe some days later—I don't recall exactly—and I believe the Secret Service man identified hisself as being Williams, I believe, from Houston. I won't swear to that—whether his name was Williams or not.

Mr. Belin. All right.

Mr. Brennan. And he could have been an FBI. As far as I remember, it could have been FBI instead of Secret Service.

But I believe it was a Secret Service man from Houston.

And I——

Mr. Belin. What did he say to you and what did you say to him?

Mr. Brennan. Well, he asked me—he said, "You said you couldn't make a positive identification."

He said, "Did you do that for security reasons personally, or couldn't you?"

And I told him I could with all honesty, but I did it more or less for security reasons—my family and myself.

Mr. Belin. What do you mean by security reasons for your family and yourself?

Mr. Brennan. I believe at that time, and I still believe it was a Communist activity, and I felt like there hadn't been more than one eyewitness, and if it got to be a known fact that I was an eyewitness, my family or I, either one, might not be safe.

Mr. Belin. Well, if you wouldn't have identified him, might he not have been released by the police?

Mr. Brennan. Beg pardon?

Mr. Belin. If you would not have identified that man positively, might he not have been released by the police?

Mr. Brennan. No. That had a great contributing factor—greater contributing factor than my personal reasons was that I already knew they had the man for murder, and I knew he would not be released.

Mr. Belin. The murder of whom?

Mr. Brennan. Of Officer Tippit.

Mr. Belin. Well, what happened in between to change your mind that you later decided to come forth and tell them you could identify him?

Mr. Brennan. After Oswald was killed, I was relieved quite a bit that as far as pressure on myself of somebody not wanting me to identify anybody, there was no longer that immediate danger.

Mr. Belin. What is the fact as to whether or not your having seen Oswald on television would have affected your identification of him one way or the other?

Mr. Brennan. That is something I do not know.

Mr. Belin. Mr. Brennan, could you tell us now whether you can or cannot positively identify the man you saw on the sixth floor window as the same man that you saw in the police station?

Mr. Brennan. I could at that time—I could, with all sincerity, identify him as being the same man.

Mr. Belin. Was the man that you saw in the window firing the rifle the same man that you had seen earlier in the window, you said at least a couple of times, first stepping up and then going back?

Mr. Brennan. Yes, sir.

Mr. Belin. About how far were you away from that window at the time you saw him, Mr. Brennan?

149 Mr. Brennan. Well, at that time, I calculated 110-foot at an angle. But closer surveillance I believe it will run close to 122 to 126 feet at an angle.

Mr. Belin. I believe that on Friday we paced the distance between the place where you were sitting and the front door of the Texas School Book Depository Building, and it ran about——

Mr. Brennan. 93-foot.

Representative Ford. This doesn't have to be now, but I think some time he ought to step by step on a diagram trace his movements from the restaurant until he left the scene of the shooting.

Mr. Belin. On that particular diagram, Congressman Ford, which is Exhibit No. 361, the intersection of Main and Houston, and of Record and Main is not shown. It would be a little bit to the south.

Representative Ford. But he might be able to show the direction from which he came to get on to the scene.

Mr. Belin. Yes; that he can do.

Representative Ford. And then his movements from there on until he left the area. I think it would be very helpful to tie down the precise places he was from time to time.

Mr. Belin. I think he might do that right now.

Mr. Brennan, I place in front of you Exhibit 361, and I call to your attention that the top appears to be south rather than north, and the arrow north is pointed towards the bottom. And you will notice at the top here, running in what would be an east-west direction, is Elm Street. And you can see running in a north-south direction Houston Street, with the Texas School Book Depository Building noted here in black.

Do you see that?

Mr. Brennan. It should be here.

Mr. Belin. I will turn the map around to show you north and south; we can keep it upside down for the moment.

This is Elm Street. To the north is Pacific. Main would be down here off the bottom of the map. And here is Record Street right here. And I believe you said you were at lunch at Record and Main, and then you walked to the south.

I wonder if you might take this pen and kind of, off the street markings, you might start maybe down here at the bottom as to where you had your lunch.

Mr. Brennan. This is Main here.

Mr. Belin. Main would be running there, yes.

If you would, put a "D" at that point.

Now, if you would kind of on a line trace your course that you took that day.

All right.

Mr. Brennan. I didn't go to the corner.

Mr. Belin. You didn't go to the corner of Elm and Houston. That would be the southeast corner?

Mr. Brennan. I noticed this man having a fit. And I came across at this corner.

Mr. Belin. Now, would you put the letter "E" where you ended up sitting. This is on Exhibit No. 361.

Mr. Brennan. "E"?

Mr. Belin. Yes.

Mr. Brennan. I believe that would be just about where the retainer wall is.

Mr. Belin. All right.

So you have put on Exhibit 361 the letter "E" where you were sitting facing the School Book Depository Building.

Representative Ford. I think that it might be helpful to trace it where he went subsequent to that.

Mr. Belin. All right.

Subsequent to the time of the shooting, would you put a line from your point at point "E" to where you went to talk to the police officers and the Secret Service officers?

Mr. Brennan. The retaining wall come around here and straight across here.

Mr. Belin. Will you put an "F" where you talked to him?

150 Mr. Brennan. The car was sitting here. That is where I talked to him. This is where I contacted the officer.

Mr. Belin. You contacted the officer at "F".

Mr. Brennan. Yes.

Mr. Belin. And then you went over to a car.

Mr. Brennan. Yes.

Mr. Belin. Would you put your direction to the car and put a "G" on there?

Mr. Brennan. I walked down the street hereaways with this officer.

Mr. Belin. All right, the point from "F" where you walked down the street, that would be walking north on Houston?

Mr. Brennan. I don't know; however, we walked down this way, but I do remember going in that direction with the officer.

Mr. Belin. You went to the north on Houston?

Mr. Brennan. Yes. And then back to——

Mr. Belin. Well, just put a mark in there, and cut it back, if you could, just to show the route of you going north.

Mr. Brennan. I don't know exactly however.

Mr. Belin. All right.

Will you put a mark to "G" at the end? And I believe you said that the car that you talked to the Secret Service agent in was at point "G" approximately?

Mr. Brennan. Right.

Mr. Belin. Now, are these accurate or approximate locations, Mr. Brennan?

Mr. Brennan. Well, don't you have photographs of me talking to the Secret Service men right here?

Mr. Belin. I don't believe so.

Mr. Brennan. You should have. It was on television before I got home—my wife saw it.

Mr. Belin. On television?

Mr. Brennan. Yes.

Mr. Belin. At this time we do not have them.

Do you remember what station they were on television?

Mr. Brennan. No. But they had it. And I called I believe Mr. Lish who requested that he cut those films or get them cut of the FBI. I believe you might know about them. Somebody cut those films, because a number of times later the same films were shown, and that part was cut.

Mr. Belin. Who would Mr. Lish be with?

Mr. Brennan. The FBI.

Mr. Belin. All right.

We thank you very much for that information.

Is there anything else that you did at point "G" or anywhere else after the time of the assassination before you went to the Sheriff's office?

Mr. Brennan. I walked up the steps and stood on the outside of the doorway.

Mr. Belin. Of what building?

Mr. Brennan. Of the Texas Book Store, while the officers or the men that I was with gave some more orders. And then Mr. Sorrels taken me across to the Sheriff's office.

Mr. Dulles. You did not go inside the building?

Mr. Brennan. No; I did not.

Mr. Belin. Did you notice any people coming out of the front stairs of the building after these two Negroes came out?

Mr. Brennan. Well, I recall people going in and out, but a different picture I cannot remember.

Representative Ford. Where were you standing when you identified the two Negroes?

Mr. Brennan. On the edge of the street, outer side of the sidewalk, when the two colored boys came out of the building and came down the steps.

Mr. Belin. Was that at point "G"?

Mr. Brennan. Yes, sir.

Mr. Belin. All right.

Now, perhaps on Exhibit No. 478 you can trace your route at least along Houston Street to the time—to the place where you were sitting. You recognize the intersection of Main and Houston there?

151 Mr. Brennan. Yes.

Mr. Belin. All right.

Could you start there and kind of trace—well, I don't know if you can see all of it.

Mr. Brennan. No.

Mr. Belin. Do the best you can, you can trace along here.

Here would be the intersection of Main and Houston.

Mr. Brennan. I came down that side. Now, this street was open at that time.

Mr. Belin. By this street you mean Houston Street?

Mr. Brennan. Yes. I don't recall any parked cars there.

Mr. Belin. Could you make that line a little darker, sir, that you have put on.

All right. Now, at that first point, this would be——

Mr. Brennan. I believe I walked a little south there, just observing them picking the man up.

Mr. Belin. All right.

You have marked a line on Exhibit No. 478 heading a little bit south on the west side of Houston street, commencing at the southwest corner of the intersection, which is where you say you walked to watch the man with the epileptic fit, is that it?

Mr. Brennan. Well, I didn't go up—he was almost center way of the block here. I didn't go up that far.

Mr. Belin. All right.

And will you put the letter "H" there, if you would?

Mr. Brennan. Where I was standing watching the man?

Mr. Belin. Where you were standing watching the man; yes.

Mr. Brennan. Right there.

Mr. Belin. And then where did you go from there?

Mr. Brennan. Right there.

Mr. Belin. All right.

Now, you have taken a line which would be running along the south side of Elm Street there towards the point where you are sitting, and that is in the picture Exhibit 478. And that was the route that you took?

Mr. Brennan. Yes.

Mr. Belin. Put the letter "I", if you would, there, please.

Now, on Exhibit No. 477, I wonder if you would perchance show us after the assassination, or the shooting—you said you first went over to another side of the wall.

Would it be to the east or to the west there?

Mr. Brennan. To the east. This right here is solid concrete.

Mr. Belin. Is this where you went?

Mr. Brennan. Yes.

Mr. Belin. All right.

On Exhibit 477, could you put the letter "J" where you went right after the shooting?

All right.

Now, I believe you said you later stood up and eventually walked across the street to get a police officer. On Exhibit 477, could you put a letter "K" where you believe you went to talk to this police officer, where he was.

It looks like there is a car there now.

So you went from point "J" to point "K", and point "K", on Exhibit 477, would correspond with "F" on Exhibit 361, is that right?

Mr. Brennan. Right.

Mr. Belin. All right.

Now, I wonder if you could perchance show on Exhibit 477 the point that corresponds with point "G" on Exhibit 361, which is where you said you went to the car.

Mr. Brennan. This car here—letter what?

Mr. Belin. "L".

Mr. Brennan. That is this car here, sitting approximately where——

Mr. Belin. I note that this car that you have marked the "L" is not actually152 on the extreme north part of Elm, but really appears to be on that part which is going down to the Freeway.

Mr. Brennan. Oh, is that right?

Yes; you are correct there.

Mr. Belin. Now, is this accurate, or was it one that you saw parked right in front of the building?

Mr. Brennan. Right next to the curb in front of the building.

Mr. Belin. Would it be behind—you might put the letter "M" to show the car which it is behind now.

Mr. Brennan. All right.

Mr. Belin. You have put the letter "M" on Exhibit 477 to show the car behind the one which the Secret Service car was parked.

Mr. Brennan. Yes.

Mr. Belin. At this time I believe Exhibits 477, 478 and 479 should be reoffered to show all of the markings that the witness has made on these exhibits.

Mr. Dulles. They shall be admitted as remarked.

(The documents referred to, previously marked for identification as Commission's Exhibit Nos. 477, 478, and 479 were readmitted into evidence.)

Mr. Belin. And also Exhibit 361 should be reoffered.

Mr. Dulles. What is 361?

Mr. Belin. It is the large chart which also has been marked on.

Mr. Dulles. It shall be admitted again, remarked.

(The chart referred to, previously marked as Commission's Exhibit No. 361 for identification, was readmitted into evidence.)

Mr. Belin. Mr. Brennan, in this sixth floor window, where you saw the gun fired, did you see any objects of any kind in the window, or near the window?

Mr. Brennan. Yes. Through the window, which I referred to as back in the book store building, I could see stacks of boxes.

Mr. Belin. Now, I hand you what has been marked as Exhibit 480, which appears to be a picture of the Texas School Book Depository Building, which was taken shortly after this time.

I believe on the fifth floor you can see on two of the open windows there some people looking out, and Exhibit 481 is a picture of the east windows on the south side of the fifth and sixth floors, and Exhibit 482 is an enlargement of 481.

First of all, on Exhibits 481 and 482, do you recognize any of these two persons in the fifth floor window as people you saw there?

Mr. Brennan. No; I do not recognize them.

As positive identification I cannot recognize them.

Now, I see where there is a possibility I did make a mistake. I believe these two colored boys was in this window, and I believe I showed on that other exhibit that they were in this window.

Mr. Belin. All right.

I am going to hand you now——

Mr. Brennan. The only thing I said is that they were one window over below the man that fired the gun.

Mr. Belin. Well, I hand you Commission Exhibit 477, where you marked a "B" at the point there you first said you saw the Negro men. Is this the one you say now you might have been mistaken?

Mr. Brennan. Yes; I believe I was mistaken. I believe the two men that I identified was in this window.

Mr. Belin. You are pointing to the window to the east of where you have now marked "B"?

Mr. Brennan. That I am not positive of. I just remember that they were over one window from below him, which at that time I might have thought this was one window over.

Mr. Belin. All right. Let me ask you this. On Exhibit 481, does the condition of the opening of the windows in the fifth floor appear to be that which you saw on the afternoon of November 22?

Mr. Brennan. Yes. These do.

Mr. Belin. You are pointing to the fifth-floor windows now?

153 Mr. Brennan. But I don't recall this window at the time of the shooting being that low.

Mr. Belin. Now, by this window you are pointing to the window on the sixth floor?

Mr. Brennan. Right.

Mr. Belin. On Exhibit 481. I wonder if you would mark that with the letter "A"—if you would circle that window. And could you put an "A" on that, if you would.

Now, window A, on Exhibit 481, when you saw it, how high do you believe it was open?

Mr. Brennan. I believe that at the time he was firing, it was open just like this.

Mr. Belin. Just like the windows on the fifth floor immediately below?

Mr. Brennan. That is right.

Mr. Belin. I note in window "A" there appear to be some boxes in the window. To the best of your recollection, what is the fact as to whether or not those boxes as shown in this exhibit appear to be similar to the ones you saw on November 22?

Mr. Brennan. No; I could see more boxes.

Mr. Belin. In the window or behind the window?

Mr. Brennan. Behind the window.

Mr. Belin. I am talking in the window itself.

Mr. Brennan. No, no. That is—I don't remember a box in the window, these boxes I remember are stacked up behind the window, and they were zigzagged, kind of step down, and there was a space it looked like back of here.

Mr. Belin. Now, you are pointing to a space which would be on the east side, is that right?

Mr. Brennan. Yes.

Mr. Belin. When you say you don't remember——

Mr. Brennan. Well, I can see those boxes there now. I don't know whether you can see them or not. It seems like I can see the boxes in that picture. Am I right?

Mr. Belin. I don't know, sir. I can't see them on Exhibit 471. That could be the dirty window here.

Mr. Brennan. Here they are here. Those boxes there.

Mr. Belin. Well, here is Exhibit 482.

First of all, I see a box on Exhibit 482, right in the window.

Mr. Brennan. Yes; I don't recall that box.

Mr. Belin. Do you recall that it definitely was not there, or just you don't recall whether it was or was not there.

Mr. Brennan. I do not recall that being there. So, therefore, I could not say it definitely wasn't there.

Mr. Belin. You cannot say whether it was or was not?

Mr. Brennan. No.

Mr. Belin. On Exhibit 482, do you want to point an arrow to where you believe you can see boxes back there. Or where you saw boxes.

All right.

Let the record show that Exhibits 480, 481, and 482 were taken by, I believe it is, Underwood or—just a second. Thomas C. Dillard, Chief Photographer of the Dallas Morning News, who was riding in the car with Robert H. Jackson, who has already testified before the Commission, and the deposition of Mr. Dillard will be taken by Mr. Ball and me in Dallas in the first part of April.

And that Exhibits 480, 481, and 482 were taken shortly after the firing of the third shot. I think that this should appear in the record.

I think it should also appear in the record that Exhibit 479 is one of the frames from the Abraham Zapruder movie film.

Mr. Brennan, from the time you first saw the Presidential motorcade turning north on Houston from Main, did you observe the window from which you say you saw the last shot fired at any time prior to the time you saw the rifle in the window?

Mr. Brennan. Yes.

Mr. Belin. Well, what I am saying is this. You saw the motorcade turn?

154 Mr. Brennan. No; not after I saw the motorcade, I did not observe a man or rifle in the window.

Mr. Belin. Did you observe the window at all until after you heard that first sound which was a backfire or firecracker, at least you thought it was?

Mr. Brennan. No.

Mr. Belin. So you did not observe the window and would not know whether or not there was any man in the window during that period?

Mr. Brennan. No.

Mr. Belin. Well, let the record be clear. The first sound you first thought was what?

Mr. Brennan. Backfire of a motorcycle.

Mr. Belin. And then you later said something about a firecracker.

Did that have reference to the first shot, or something in between the first and last?

Mr. Brennan. I positively thought that the first shot was a backfire of a motorcycle. And then something made me think that someone was throwing firecrackers from the Texas Book Store, and a possibility it was the second shot. But I glanced up or looked up and I saw this man taking aim for his last shot. The first shot and last shot is my only positive recollection of two shots.

Mr. McCloy. Did you see the rifle explode? Did you see the flash of what was either the second or the third shot?

Mr. Brennan. No.

Mr. McCloy. Could you see that he had discharged the rifle?

Mr. Brennan. No. For some reason I did not get an echo at any time. The first shot was positive and clear and the last shot was positive and clear, with no echo on my part.

Mr. McCloy. Yes.

But you saw him aim?

Mr. Brennan. Yes.

Mr. McCloy. Did you see the rifle discharge, did you see the recoil or the flash?

Mr. Brennan. No.

Mr. McCloy. But you heard the last shot.

Mr. Brennan. The report; yes, sir.

Mr. Dulles. Could you see who or what he was aiming at? You testified as to the declination of the rifle, the angle of the rifle. But could you see what he was firing at?

Mr. Brennan. Subconsciously I knew what he was firing at. But immediately I looked towards where President Kennedy's car should be, and there was something obstructing my view. I could not see the President or his car at that time.

And I still don't know what was obstructing my view, because I was high enough that I should have been able to see it. I could not see it.

Mr. Belin. Mr. Brennan, on one of your interviews with the FBI, they record a statement that you estimated your distance between the point you were seated and the window from which the shots were fired as approximately 90 yards.

At that time did you make that statement to the FBI—and this would be on 22 November. To the best of your recollection?

Mr. Brennan. There was a mistake in the FBI recording there. He had asked me the question of how far the shot was fired from too, and also he had asked me the question of how far I was from the shot that was fired. I calculated the distance at the angle his gun was resting that he must have been firing 80 to 90 yards.

Now, I——

Mr. Belin. You mean 80 or 90 yards from where?

Mr. Brennan. From Kennedy's position.

Mr. Belin. But could you see Kennedy's position?

Mr. Brennan. No; I could not. But I could see before and after.

Mr. Belin. In that same interview, you stated that you attended a lineup at the Dallas Police Department at which you picked Lee Harvey Oswald as the person most closely resembling the man you observed with the rifle in the155 window of the Texas School Book Depository, but you stated you could not positively identify Oswald as the person you saw fire the rifle.

Now, is this an accurate recording of the statement you made to the FBI on or about November 22?

Mr. Brennan. Yes; I believe——

Mr. Belin. In other words, that part of the FBI statement is correct, as to what you told them?

Mr. Brennan. Yes.

Mr. Belin. What was the fact as to whether you could or could not identify the person, apart from what you told them?

Mr. Brennan. Why did I——

Mr. Belin. No.

What was the fact. Could you or could you not actually identify this person as the man you saw firing the rifle?

Mr. Brennan. I believed I could with all fairness and sincerity. As you asked me the question before, had I saw those pictures of Oswald prior, which naturally I don't know whether it confused me or made me feel as though I was taking unfair advantage or what. But with all fairness, I could have positively identified the man.

Mr. Belin. Now, on December 17 there appears to be another interview that you had with an agent of the FBI in which you at that time, according to this report, stated that you could now say that you were sure that Lee Harvey Oswald was the person you saw in the window at the time of the assassination, but that when you first saw him in a lineup you felt positive identification was was not necessary, because it was your understanding that Oswald had already been charged with the slaying of Officer Tippit, and you also said that another factor was that you had observed his picture on television prior to the time of identification, and that that tended to cloud any identification you made of Oswald at the police department.

Now, does this December 17 interview accurately record what you told the FBI with regard to that matter of identification?

Mr. Brennan. I believe it does.

Mr. Belin. Now, later we have an interview on January 7 with the FBI in which at that time the interview records that while you were at home and before you returned to view the lineup, which included the possible assassin of President Kennedy, you observed Lee Harvey Oswald's picture on television, and that you said that this, of course, did not help you retain the original impression of the man in the window with the rifle, but that upon seeing Lee Harvey Oswald in the police lineup, you felt that Oswald most resembled the man whom you had seen in the window.

Now, is that what you told the man on January 7—that Oswald most resembled the man that you had seen in the window?

Mr. Brennan. Yes.

Mr. Belin. Does that mean you could not give him a positive identification at that time, but could merely say he most resembled the man in the window?

Mr. Brennan. Well, I felt that I could. But for personal reasons I didn't feel like that at that moment it was compulsory and I did not want to give a positive identification at that time.

Mr. Belin. Now, this last interview was on January 7th. You still felt these personal reasons as recently as January 7th, then?

Mr. Brennan. No. I felt better about it. This is the first guy that——

Mr. Belin. No. I am referring now to the last interview you had on January 7th, in which it says that you felt that Oswald most resembled the man you had seen in the window.

Is that what you told them?

Mr. Brennan. Yes.

You mean told this man?

Mr. Belin. On January 7th; yes, sir.

Mr. Brennan. No; I don't believe I told this man in those words. I told him what I had said at the lineup. But he might have misinterpreted that I was saying that again.

Mr. Belin. In other words—well, I don't want to say in other words.

156 When you said on January 7th that upon seeing Lee Harvey Oswald in the lineup you felt that Oswald most resembled the man whom you had seen in the window?

Mr. Brennan. Yes.

Mr. Belin. Now, I am referring to a statement to the FBI on January 7th of this year.

Mr. Brennan. All right.

Mr. Belin. By that, did you have reference to your own personal recollection, or what you said at the time of the Dallas Police Department lineup?

Mr. Brennan. I believe I was referring to what I said at the Dallas Police Department.

Mr. Belin. On January 7th of this year, what is the fact as to whether or not you could give—whether or not you felt on November 22d that the man you saw in the window was the man you saw in the police lineup—not what you told him, but what was the fact?

Mr. Brennan. On January 7th, at that time I did believe that I could give positive identification as well as I did later.

Mr. Belin. You mean in the December interview?

Mr. Brennan. Yes.

Mr. Belin. Let me ask you this: You said you saw the man with the rifle on the sixth floor, and then you said you saw some Negroes on the fifth floor.

Mr. Brennan. Yes.

Mr. Belin. Did you get as good a look at the Negroes as you got at the man with the rifle?

Mr. Brennan. Yes.

Mr. Belin. Did you feel that your recollection of the Negroes at that time was as good as the one with the man with the rifle?

Mr. Brennan. Yes—at that time, it was. Now—the boys rode up with me on the plane—of course I recognize them now. But as far as a few days later, I wouldn't positively say that I could identify them. I did identify them that day.

Mr. Belin. Well, for instance, when I showed you Exhibit 482, you said that you could not identify——

Mr. Brennan. Well, the picture is not clear enough, as far as distinct profiles.

Mr. Dulles. Mr. Belin, I don't think you have asked they be admitted as yet.

Mr. Belin. No, sir. I have one more mark to make on them, sir.

Mr. Brennan. The pictures there are not clear enough, the profile is not distinct enough.

Mr. Belin. All right.

Now, I wonder if you would take on Exhibit 482, if you can kind of mark the way the rifle was at the time you saw it.

Here is a red pencil. If you could put on Exhibit 482 the direction that you saw the rifle pointing, sir.

Mr. Brennan. I would say more at this angle. Maybe not as far out as this.

Mr. Belin. You have put a line, and I have tried to make a little bit darker line.

Mr. Brennan. That is as close as I can get it.

Mr. Belin. This is on Exhibit 482—as to the angle at which you saw the rifle. And you say perhaps it wasn't out of the window as far as this line goes on Exhibit 482, is that correct?

Mr. Brennan. Right.

Representative Ford. That is the angle that you believe the rifle was pointed?

Mr. Brennan. Yes.

Mr. Dulles. And that is from the area in the window from which the rifle was pointing?

Mr. Brennan. Right.

Mr. Belin. Could you tell whether or not any part of the rifle was protruding out of the window?

Mr. Brennan. On a straight view like that it looked like it was.

But as I have told investigating officers prior, a person would have to be at an angle to tell how much was protruding out of the window. It did look157 at that time that as much was protruding out of the window as there was in the window.

Mr. Belin. At this time, we offer and introduce into evidence Exhibits 480, 481, and 482.

Mr. Dulles. They will be accepted.

(The documents heretofore marked for identification as Commission Exhibits Nos. 480, 481, and 482 were received in evidence.)

Mr. McCloy. I have one or two questions, if you are finished, Mr. Belin.

Mr. Belin. One more question, sir.

Did you ever tell anyone that you were 90 yards away from that window where you saw the gun?

Mr. Brennan. No. It was a misunderstanding. My first calculation was that I was about 75-foot out from the window, and the calculation of the window 75-foot up. So the hypotenuse there would be approximately 110-foot. That was my first calculation.

But since we made a step of the grounds Friday, I was farther out than 75 feet. Approximately 93 feet is what we calculated Friday.

Mr. Belin. One additional question, sir.

When did you first see Exhibit 479?

Mr. Brennan. This morning.

Mr. Belin. This morning here.

And on Exhibit 479, who picked the person out as being you in that picture? Was it you or was it I?

Mr. Brennan. I did.

I might add that prior to Friday, no one had ever gave me any information on your evidence whatsoever.

Mr. Belin. Well, on Friday you and I met for the first time in Dallas—that would be on March 20th.

Mr. Brennan. Right.

Mr. Belin. And we sat down and I asked you just to tell me what happened, is that correct?

Mr. Brennan. That is right.

Mr. Belin. Did I ask you a general question and say, "What happened?" Or did I just ask you repeated questions?

Mr. Brennan. No.

Well, you more or less told me to tell it in my own way exactly what happened.

Mr. Belin. And you just started to tell it, is that correct?

Mr. Brennan. Yes. I believe that sums it up.

Mr. Belin. And then we then went outside where you pointed out the place where you were sitting?

Mr. Brennan. Yes.

Mr. Belin. Do you remember the doctor that examined your eyes when you had them examined?

Mr. Brennan. He is in Port Lavaca. He is the only leading optometrist there.

Mr. Belin. Would it be Dr. Howard R. Bonar?

Mr. Brennan. That is right.

How did you find that out?

Mr. Berlin. Well, sir, it is on one of your interviews here.

Mr. Brennan. Had that question been asked me before?

Mr. Belin. Yes, it had. On November 22, when you advised that you wore glasses for reading purposes only.

Mr. Brennan. That is right, the FBI, Mr. Lish, right?

Mr. Belin. Yes, sir.

Mr. McCloy. That examination was before the sand blasting, of course.

Mr. Brennan. Oh, yes, sir. The sandblasting wasn't until January or early February of this year.

Representative Ford. Did you have your glasses on at the time of the assassination?

Mr. Brennan. No.

Mr. McCloy. You can see better at that distance without your glasses than with them?

Mr. Brennan. Oh, yes, much better. Oh, I could put these glasses on and it158 is just like looking through a window pane. The upper part is just regular clear.

Mr. Dulles. Do you have some questions, Mr. McCloy?

Mr. McCloy. Yes; I have some questions.

You said you went across the street after having sort of jumped off this retaining wall in order to protect yourself against the possible fusilade of shots.

Mr. Brennan. Right.

Mr. McCloy. Then you went across and picked up a police officer, is that right?

Mr. Brennan. Right, sir.

Mr. McCloy. And then you went with him to the steps of the Texas School Book Depository?

Mr. Brennan. Eventually, yes.

Mr. McCloy. How long did it take you, do you think, from the time of the—when you first got up—from the time of the last shot, how long would you estimate it would be before you got to the steps of the Texas Book Depository?

Mr. Brennan. I could not calculate that, because before I got to the steps of the Texas Book Store, I had already talked to this officer, and he had taken me to the Secret Service men, I had talked to them.

Mr. McCloy. And you stayed behind the retaining wall for a little while until you saw the coast was clear?

Mr. Brennan. Just seconds. I would say from the time the last shot was fired, and me diving off the wall there, and getting around on the solid side, and then running across to the officer, the time element is hard to figure, but it would still be in seconds.

Mr. McCloy. Then when you got to the officer he took you to a Secret Service man, and then the Secret Service man and you were on the steps of the depository?

Mr. Brennan. Yes.

Well, we talked at the car, and then when these two colored guys came down the stairway onto the street, I pointed to them, and identified them as being the two that was in the floor below that floor. And then Mr. Sorrels, I think, had to give some orders to someone in the book store. He walked me up the steps, and I stood on the top landing.

Mr. McCloy. When you were standing on those steps, did you see anyone pass you, or anyone that you could recognize as being—as looking somewhat like the man that you had seen in the window with the rifle?

Mr. Brennan. No, I did not.

Mr. Dulles. Did you give any estimate—was it a matter of 5 minutes, 6 minutes, 7 minutes? In general, how long did it take you from the time that you left where you were protecting yourself to the time you were on the front steps? What order of magnitude? 10 minutes?

Mr. Brennan. No; it was a shorter time than that.

I talked to Mr. Sorrels—I believe it was Mr. Sorrels—and the Secret Service men there—I don't believe I talked to them more than 3 to 5 minutes.

Mr. McCloy. But you had prior to that time talked to the police officer?

Mr. Brennan. Yes.

Mr. McCloy. You said the police officer said, "Wait a minute."

Mr. Brennan. Yes.

Mr. McCloy. How long was that?

Mr. Brennan. That was quick, too. He gave his orders to some one on that side of the building, and then he had taken me to the Secret Service man.

Mr. McCloy. Did you have the feeling that the police had put a cordon around the building, and were they keeping people in, or were people coming in and out while you were there?

Mr. Brennan. Well, I did, by the time I got on the steps of the Texas Book Store—I felt like that the place was completely surrounded and blocked by then. But at the time I ran across to this officer, I may have been completely wrong, they may have—the Secret Service men and police department, too, may have been directing their search to the building, but I felt as though they were directing their search to the west side of the building.

159 Mr. McCloy. You testified, I believe, that you saw them directing their search towards the wrong side of the building, so to speak?

Mr. Brennan. Yes. That was my thoughts.

Mr. McCloy. And so that would indicate that at that time they were not blocking that particular entrance at the east side of the building, below the window that you saw the shot fired from?

Mr. Brennan. Not according to my calculations.

Mr. Dulles. Any other questions?

Representative Ford. Mr. Chairman, I would suggest that perhaps in the case of Mr. Brennan and other witnesses, if a biography prepared by the individual, looked over by the staff, would not be helpful to include in the record—I don't mean a biography in great depth, but at least an outline of the individual's background—I think it would be helpful for the record.

Mr. Dulles. We have certain information.

Mr. Belin. We have certain information in the record right now which we took at the very beginning of the session here this morning.

Representative Ford. Yes, I was present. But I think it is important to have more of a background of his education, experience, and I think it is wise to have it for all of the witnesses—not in great depth, but at least a background to show some biographical information.

Mr. Belin. Would you care to have that prepared by the witness himself, or here in the record?

Representative Ford. I would suggest that it be prepared initially by the witness, checked over by the staff, and then mutually agreed as acceptable through the witness, and then insert it in the record.

Mr. Dulles. Prior to his testimony?

Representative Ford. Yes.

Mr. Belin. Would you be willing to furnish us with some kind of an autobiographical sketch of yourself—your date and place of birth, where you went to school, your education, your jobs that you have had, and perhaps it also should include some kind of a physical description as to your approximate height and weight and what-have-you?

Mr. Brennan. Not at all. But you sure going to be confused on my jobs, sir.

Mr. Belin. Because you have gone from one job to another?

Mr. Brennan. Well, I worked under the union constitution for the last 20 years, and I have worked for many a contractor.

Mr. Belin. You mean you just work on contract, and when you are through with that particular construction job, the union would send you to another construction job?

Mr. Brennan. Yes. Usually a contractor wants me to go to the State of Washington, like I did in California, or he wants me to go to Utah or somewhere like that.

Mr. Dulles. I don't think we need all that detail.

Mr. Belin. In other words, you have been a steamfitter.

Mr. Brennan. Yes, sir.

With the exception of the possibility of 2 years I was in business in California, private business.

Mr. McCloy. Are you a member of a church?

Mr. Brennan. Yes, sir.

Mr. McCloy. What church are you a member of?

Mr. Brennan. Baptist.

Mr. McCloy. You testified you were a Bible reader.

Mr. Brennan. Well, I don't read it as much as I should.

Mr. McCloy. When you do, you have to wear glasses?

Mr. Brennan. Yes, sir.

Mr. Dulles. Any other questions?

Mr. Belin. There have been two or three other questions that have come up here, sir.

One question—when we visited on Friday in Dallas, what is the fact as to whether or not I told you what to say or you yourself just told me what you wanted to tell me?

Mr. Brennan. I told you—you did not instruct me what to say at all. I told160 you in the best words I could to explain exactly my movements and what happened.

Representative Ford. And here today you have testified freely on your own?

Mr. Brennan. Right, I have.

Mr. Dulles. Anything you would like to add?

Mr. Belin. One other question, sir.

For the record, would you repeat what I would say would be a full statement of the reasons which caused you to state in your December interview to the FBI that you had always been convinced that the man you saw in the lineup was the man you saw firing the rifle, whereas on November 22d you declined to give positive identification. Could you give all of the reasons, please?

Mr. Brennan. Well, as I previously have said, I had saw the man in the window and I had saw him on television. He looked much younger on television than he did from my picture of him in the window—not much younger, but a few years younger—say 5 years younger.

And then I felt that my family could be in danger, and I, myself, might be in danger. And since they already had the man for murder, that he wasn't going to be set free to escape and get out of the country immediately, and I could very easily sooner than the FBI or the Secret Service wanted me, my testimony in, I could very easily get in touch with them, if they didn't get in touch with me, and to see that the man didn't get loose.

Representative Ford. When you got home, about 3 o'clock, on November 22d, that is when you did get home——

Mr. Brennan. Yes.

Representative Ford. Was your wife there?

Mr. Brennan. Yes.

Representative Ford. Did you and your wife discuss any aspects of the assassination and your being present, more or less, at the scene of the assassination?

Mr. Brennan. Yes; we discussed it. We talked—I talked of moving her and my grandson, which was living with us at that time and my daughter—moving them out of town somewhere in secrecy.

Representative Ford. Why did you talk about moving your wife and your grandson out of town on this afternoon on November 22d?

Mr. Brennan. Because I had already more or less given a detailed description of the man, and I talked to the Secret Service and gave them my statement, and they had convinced me that it would be strictly confidential and all that. But still I felt like if I was the only eyewitness, that anything could happen to me or my family.

So that was just about the length of our discussion of it.

She seemed to think that a person can't get away—wherever they go.

Representative Ford. Did you talk to anybody else between 3 p.m., November 22d and the time when one of the law enforcement agents came out and picked you up that day?

Mr. Brennan. Not to tell—not to give any information out.

My wife and I went to the bank in Mesquite that evening, and my daughter was at home. And I told her if anyone called to first have them identify themselves, and find out the nature of their business that they wanted me for, and if it was the FBI or the Secret Service, to tell them where they could contact me.

And so we were in the bank, I believe, talking to the vice president that evening. My daughter called and said Mr. Sorrels had called, and that he had requested her to get the word to me to call him. And she called me at the bank, and then I asked the secretary to get the number for me. And I called Mr. Sorrels, and Mr. Sorrels told me there would be a man to pick me up at 6 o'clock promptly.

Representative Ford. 6 p.m., November 22d.

Mr. Brennan. Yes; that is right.

Representative Ford. And he did pick you up, and you did go down to the police station?

Mr. Brennan. Yes, sir.

Mr. Belin. When you got back from the police station, did you have any further conversation with your wife about what you saw in the police station?

161 Mr. Brennan. Yes. But I don't believe I explained to her full details. She probably remembers whether I did or not, but I don't. I believe I just told her that I would not identify, make positive identification. I believe that is all I told her.

Mr. Belin. That you would not, or that you could not?

Mr. Brennan. I believe I told her I would not.

Mr. Belin. Do you remember the specific color of any shirt that the man with the rifle was wearing?

Mr. Brennan. No, other than light, and a khaki color—maybe in khaki. I mean other than light color—not a real white shirt, in other words. If it was a white shirt, it was on the dingy side.

Mr. Belin. I am handing you what the court reporter has marked as Commission Exhibit 150.

Does this look like it might or might not be the shirt, or can you make at this time any positive identification of any kind?

Mr. Brennan. I would have expected it to be a little lighter—a shade or so lighter.

Mr. Belin. Than Exhibit 150?

Mr. Brennan. That is the best of my recollection.

Mr. Belin. All right.

Could you see the man's trousers at all?

Do you remember any color?

Mr. Brennan. I remembered them at that time as being similar to the same color of the shirt or a little lighter. And that was another thing that I called their attention to at the lineup.

Mr. Belin. What do you mean by that?

Mr. Brennan. That he was not dressed in the same clothes that I saw the man in the window.

Mr. Belin. You mean with reference to the trousers or the shirt?

Mr. Brennan. Well, not particularly either. In other words, he just didn't have the same clothes on.

Mr. Belin. All right.

Mr. Brennan. I don't know whether you have that in the record or not. I am sure you do.

Mr. Dulles. Any further questions?

I guess there are no more questions, Mr. Belin.

Mr. Belin. Well, sir, we want to thank you for your cooperation with the Commission.

Mr. Dulles. Thank you very much for coming here.

TESTIMONY OF BONNIE RAY WILLIAMS

Mr. Belin. Our next witness is Mr. Bonnie Ray Williams.

Mr. Dulles. Mr. Williams, the purpose of the hearing today is to take the testimony of you and certain others whose names are mentioned here.

You and the other witnesses were all in the vicinity of the Texas School Book Depository Building at the time of the assassination of President John F. Kennedy.

You will be asked to provide the Commission with your knowledge of the facts concerning the assassination of President Kennedy.

Mr. Williams. Yes, sir.

Mr. Dulles. Would you rise, sir?

Do your swear that the evidence you will give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. Williams. Yes, I do.

Mr. Ball. Mr. Williams, how old are you?

Mr. Williams. I am 20 years old.

Mr. Ball. Where do you live?

Mr. Williams. I live in Dallas, Tex.

Mr. Ball. What is your address?

Mr. Williams. 1502 Avenue B, Apartment B.

162 Mr. Ball. Are you married?

Mr. Williams. Yes, I am.

Mr. Ball. Where were you born?

Mr. Williams. I was born in Carthage, Tex.

Mr. Ball. Did you go to school in Texas?

Mr. Williams. Yes, I did.

Mr. Ball. How far through school?

Mr. Williams. All the way.

Mr. Ball. Graduated from high school?

Mr. Williams. Yes.

Mr. Ball. Where?

Mr. Williams. Marshall, Tex., and I finished high school summer course in Dallas, Texas, Madison High.

Mr. Ball. What year did you get out of high school?

Mr. Williams. 1962.

Mr. Ball. And where did you go to work after that?

Mr. Williams. I went to work at Marriott's Motor Hotel.

Mr. Ball. What did you do there?

Mr. Williams. Well, I started off as a dishwasher. Then they put me on as a fry cook.

Mr. Ball. And how long did you stay there?

Mr. Williams. About 6 or 7 months.

Mr. Ball. Then where did you go to work?

Mr. Williams. I went to work at Union Terminal Building, baggage department.

Mr. Ball. How long did you work there?

Mr. Williams. I worked there about a year.

Mr. Ball. What kind of work did you do there?

Mr. Williams. I was a mail separator.

Mr. Ball. Then where did you go?

Mr. Williams. Then I found this job at the Texas School Book Depository.

Mr. Ball. When did you get that job?

Mr. Williams. Around about September 8th.

Mr. Ball. What year?

Mr. Williams. 1963.

Mr. Ball. How did you happen to go there to get the job?

Mr. Williams. Well, my wife was expecting, and I just wanted a day job—I was working at night. So I just went looking for a day job, and I happened to come down that way.

Mr. Dulles. Were you going to school in the daytime?

Mr. Williams. No.

Mr. Dulles. This is after you finished school?

Mr. Williams. All this took place after I finished school.

Mr. Ball. You finished school when?

Mr. Williams. 1962.

Mr. Ball. And you had these three——

Mr. Williams. Yes, sir; and I had a part-time job at a construction company. I don't remember the name of it. But it was just for about a week.

Mr. Ball. When you were going to school?

Mr. Williams. No. That was the same time I was working at Marriott's Motel.

Mr. Ball. Did you work while you went to school?

Mr. Williams. I delivered the Dallas morning newspaper sometimes, and little odd jobs.

Mr. Ball. Well, did anybody tell you you might get a job at the Texas School Book Depository before you went down there?

Mr. Williams. No, sir.

Mr. Ball. You were just looking for a job?

Mr. Williams. I just put in applications everywhere.

Mr. Ball. What kind of work did you do when you first went with the Texas School Book Depository?

163 Mr. Williams. I think the first day I started work there they started me off as a wrapper. Then the fellows told me that I had qualifications to be a checker, so they put me on as a checker there.

Mr. Ball. What are you doing now?

Mr. Williams. At the present time I do anything—check, pack, fill orders, anything.

Mr. Ball. When you went to work there, did you work at the building on the corner of Houston and Elm?

Mr. Williams. No, sir. The first time I went there I was hired on at the other warehouse, the lower part of Houston Street.

Mr. Ball. By lower part, do you mean north of the main building?

Mr. Williams. Yes, sir. Down further, the big white building.

Mr. Ball. That is sort of a warehouse?

Mr. Williams. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. You went to work there. That is about a block, a block and a half north?

Mr. Williams. A block and a half.

Mr. Ball. North of the corner of Houston and Elm?

Mr. Williams. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. And how long did you work at that place?

Mr. Williams. Well, I worked there until business began to get slow. I think that was—it was before November. I think it was some time during October. I am not sure.

Mr. Ball. And what did they put you to work at at that time?

Mr. Williams. They called me up to help lay a floor on the fifth floor, they wanted more boards over it. As I say, business was slow, and they were trying to keep us on without laying us off at the time.

So I was using the saw, helping cut wood and lay wood.

Mr. Ball. You were laying a wood floor over the old floor?

Mr. Williams. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. On the fifth floor?

Mr. Williams. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. And when you finished on the fifth floor, what did you do?

Mr. Williams. After we finished on the fifth floor, we started to move up to the sixth floor. But at the time we didn't complete the sixth floor. We only completed just a little portion of it.

Mr. Ball. By the time, you are talking about November 22d?

Mr. Williams. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Before November 22d, how long had you been laying floor in the building at Houston and Elm?

Mr. Williams. Before November 22d, I think we had been working on the fifth floor, I think, about 3 weeks. I think altogether I had been up there just about 4 weeks, I think.

Mr. Ball. And how long had you been on the sixth floor before—how long have you been working on the sixth floor before November 22d?

Mr. Williams. Let's see. Before November 22d, I think it might have been 2 days—it might have been 2 days. I would say about 2 days, approximately 2 days.

Mr. Ball. Before you started to lay the floor, did you have to move any cartons?

Mr. Williams. Yes; we did.

Mr. Ball. From what part of the sixth floor did you move the cartons?

Mr. Williams. We moved cartons from, I believe, the west side of the sixth floor to the east side of the sixth floor, because I think there was a vacancy in there.

Mr. Ball. Clear over to the east side?

Mr. Williams. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Were there cartons stacked up between the west side and the east side—were there cartons on the floor?

Mr. Williams. Yes; there was.

Mr. Ball. After you moved the cartons, then did you start laying the floor?

Mr. Williams. After we moved the cartons, we started laying the floor.

164 Then we had to move the cartons.

As we go we would move cartons to vacate the space, so we could lay the floor.

Mr. Ball. On November 22d, what time did you go to work?

Mr. Williams. November 22d, I went to work at 8 o'clock.

Mr. Ball. Were you late or on time that morning?

Mr. Williams. I believe I was on time that morning. I always get there a little before eight.

Mr. Ball. Did you know Lee Oswald, Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. Williams. I didn't know him personally, but I had seen him working. Never did say anything to anyone. He never did put himself in any position to say anything to anyone.

He just went about his work. He never said anything to me. I never said anything to him.

Mr. Ball. Did you ever have lunch with him?

Mr. Williams. No.

The only time he would come into the lunchroom sometimes and eat a sandwich maybe, and then he would go for a walk, and he would go out. And I assume he would come back. But the only other time he would come in and read a paper or nothing, and laugh and leave again.

Mr. Dulles. But he would never say good morning or good evening?

Mr. Williams. He never would speak to anyone. He was just a funny fellow. I don't know what kind of a fellow he was.

Mr. Ball. Did you notice what he read in the newspaper?

Mr. Williams. I believe one morning I noticed he was reading something about politics, and as he was reading this he acted like it was funny to him. He would read a paragraph or two, smile, or laugh, then throw the paper down and get up and walk out.

Representative Ford. Where did this go on?

Mr. Williams. This was going on in what we call the domino room. This is where we would eat our lunch and play dominoes. Some fellow would bring newspapers, to read the sports or something. He never would read the sports.

Mr. Ball. The domino room is a little recreation room on the first floor?

Mr. Williams. Yes; it is.

Mr. Ball. Now, you see the map there which has been marked Commission Exhibit 362. Will you point on that map the location of the domino room?

Mr. Dulles. Would it be easier if we put the map up there, and then everybody could see.

Mr. Williams. In the front entrance—I could explain the way I know the best.

As I said, this would be the main entrance from Elm Street. Well, this would be—the domino room is in the same line with Mr. Shelley's office, and Mr. Truly's office. The domino room would be right in here. Because two bathrooms, a large one and a small one right in this vicinity here.

Mr. Ball. That is marked on the map—the domino room is marked on the map as rec room, and the toilet is shown there?

Mr. Williams. Yes, sir. And there is a small one on the other side.

Mr. Ball. That is on Exhibit 362.

Mr. Dulles. What floor is this we are looking at now?

Mr. Williams. That is the first floor.

Representative Ford. And it was in the rec room or domino room where you saw Oswald read the paper on this occasion?

Mr. Williams. Yes, sir.

Mr. Dulles. And you said he read some of it to you and smiled about it?

Mr. Williams. No; he didn't read it to me. We were waiting turns to play dominoes, and I happened to glance over. And I just noticed what he was reading.

Mr. Ball. Now, this morning, did you see Oswald on the floor at any time?

Mr. Williams. This morning of November 22d?

Mr. Ball. 22d.

Mr. Williams. The morning of November 22d Oswald was on the floor. The only time I saw him that morning was a little after eight, after I had started165 working. As usual, he was walking around with a clipboard in his hands, I believe he was.

Mr. Ball. That is on the first floor?

Mr. Williams. Yes. He had a clipboard in his hand.

Mr. Ball. That is the only time you saw him that morning?

Mr. Williams. That is the only time I saw him that morning. I saw him again between 11:30 and maybe 10 until 12:00.

Mr. Ball. We will come to that in a moment.

Where did you work that morning?

Mr. Williams. That morning I worked on the sixth floor. I think we went directly up to the sixth floor and I got there.

Mr. Ball. And how many were working on the sixth floor with you?

Mr. Williams. I believe there were five.

Mr. Ball. What are their names?

Mr. Williams. Well, Bill Shelley, Charles Givens, and there was a fellow by the name of Danny Arce.

Mr. Ball. He is a Mexican boy?

Mr. Williams. Yes. And a fellow by the name of Billy Lovelady, and myself. And there was a fellow that came up—his name was Harold Norman. He really wasn't working at the time, but there wasn't anything to do, he would come around to help a little bit, and then back down.

Mr. Dulles. Was he in the employ of the company?

Mr. Williams. Yes; he had been working there at the time about 2 years, I think.

Mr. Dulles. But he wasn't on this particular detail on the sixth floor that you are speaking of?

Mr. Williams. Well, he had been helping us on the fifth floor. When the orders would come in, he would go down and help with the orders, and when he didn't have anything else to do he would come back and help us move stock around.

I think that was him.

Mr. Ball. What part of the sixth floor were you working that morning?

Mr. Williams. On the west side.

Mr. Ball. Were you moving stock or laying floor that morning?

Mr. Williams. We were doing both.

Mr. Ball. You were doing both?

Mr. Williams. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. The west side of the sixth floor—you mean the whole west side, or was there a certain part—northwest or southwest or middle?

Mr. Williams. I believe it was the whole west side, because we had to go from window to window—from the elevator to the front window facing Elm Street—we were laying the floor parallel.

Mr. Ball. Did you see Oswald on the sixth floor that morning?

Mr. Williams. I am not sure. I think I saw him once messing around with some cartons or something, back over the east side of the building. But he wasn't in the window that they said he shot the President from. He was more on the east side of the elevator, I think, messing around with cartons, because he always just messed around, kicking cartons around.

Mr. Ball. What was his job?

Mr. Williams. His job was an order filler.

Mr. Ball. What do you mean by that?

Mr. Williams. I mean by that an order filler—when orders come in for the State schools mostly, from Austin, he would take the orders and fill the orders.

If the orders called for a certain amount of books, he would fill that order, and turn it in to be checked, to be shipped out.

Mr. Ball. You say he would fill the order. He would go and get books?

Mr. Williams. He would get books. As an order filler you had access to all the floors, all seven floors.

Mr. Ball. And were the cartons that you are talking about containers of books?

Mr. Williams. Yes, they were.

Mr. Ball. Would a checker—would an order filler go to the different floors and take books out of cartons?

166 Mr. Williams. Yes, sir. The order filler would have to, in order to fill the order—he would have to move around to each floor, and take the books that he needs.

Mr. Ball. Then where would he take the books?

Mr. Williams. Down to the first floor.

Mr. Ball. And what was on the first floor?

Mr. Williams. The first floor is where the checkers, the freight, and all—they are checking the books to go out, and also where they wrap the books.

Mr. Ball. And were there certain men down there wrapping books?

Mr. Williams. Certain men wrapping, checking, weighing, et cetera.

Mr. Dulles. Did you have a schedule somewhere posted up so that you knew which books were on which floor when an order came in? You would know whether to go to the sixth floor or what floor to go to get the particular books that were wanted?

Mr. Williams. Well, as I remember, I don't know too much about the building.

Mr. Dulles. You were not in the order filling business?

Mr. Williams. No, sir; not in that department.

At the other building. I was just transferred to that building.

I don't think you really had any schedule to go by, or anything to show you where the books were. You just asked the older fellows that had been there were certain books—if you are looking for a certain book, they would tell you where to find it.

Mr. Ball. This morning, when you think you saw Oswald on the sixth floor, can you tell us about where he was?

Mr. Williams. Well, as I said before, I am not sure that he was really on the sixth floor. But he was always around that way. In the place I think I saw him was as the east elevator come up to the sixth floor, he was on that side of the elevator.

Mr. Ball. I have here a diagram of the sixth floor which I will have marked as Exhibit 483.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 483 for identification.)

Mr. Ball. First of all, this is Houston Street, and the top is north—east and west. Here is Elm Street.

Mr. Williams. This would be the east elevator.

Mr. Ball. This is the east elevator, west elevator and the stairway.

Now, can you take this and show us about where your men were working laying floor on that sixth floor?

Mr. Williams. I would say——

Mr. Ball. First of all, you take this pencil and put it down there, and then we will make the markings afterwards.

Mr. Williams. This is the west side of the building.

Mr. Ball. The area where you were laying floor. Make the outside limits of the area.

Mr. Williams. We were working in this area down there like that.

Mr. Ball. In other words, from there to the west, or where?

Mr. Williams. We were working from the west coming this way, coming to the east. And we had got about just so much.

Mr. Ball. Well, let's draw a dark line down there. This marks the area that you saw?

Mr. Williams. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. You had already laid floor from the west side to the dark line?

Mr. Williams. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. And you were working right around in the dark line area, were you?

Mr. Williams. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. That morning?

Mr. Williams. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Now, take your pencil and show us about where it was that you saw Oswald that morning.

Mr. Williams. I think I saw Oswald somewhere around in this vicinity.167 As I was up by this other elevator, I think one time I saw him over there. I am not really sure.

Mr. Ball. You have drawn a line here. This is a sort of general area where you say you saw Oswald, is that right?

Mr. Williams. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. We will mark that as "O". That is on the north side of the floor near the east elevator.

Mr. Williams. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. We will mark that "O".

Now, these lines you have marked show your area where you were working.

Mr. Williams. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. We will mark that W-1 and W-1.

Mr. Dulles. Mr. Williams, were all the boxes of books moved out of this area while you were working, or as you finished a part of it, were some boxes put back in?

Mr. Williams. To begin with, I think we were working on the wall first. I don't think we moved too many books in this area. I think we just moved them out and right back in, as I remember.

But I think after we got a little further over, I think we had to move some books. We had to move these books to the east side of this building, over here, and those books—I would say this would be the window Oswald shot the President from. We moved these books kind of like in a row like that, kind of winding them around.

Mr. Dulles. That is moving them from the west towards the east of the building?

Mr. Williams. Yes, sir.

Mr. McCloy. The window was here?

Mr. Ball. That is right.

Mr. Dulles. Any other questions on this?

Mr. Ball. About what time of day do you think it was you saw Oswald, if you can remember? If you can't remember, don't guess.

Mr. Williams. I cannot remember.

Mr. Ball. What time did you knock off work for the lunch hour?

Mr. Williams. Well, approximately—between 11:30 to 12, around in there. I wouldn't say the exact time, because I don't remember the exact time.

Mr. Ball. What time do you usually quit for lunch?

Mr. Williams. We always quit about 5 minutes before time.

During the rush season we quit about 5 minutes before time and washup.

Mr. Ball. Wash your hands and face before you eat lunch?

Mr. Williams. That is right.

Mr. Ball. You say quit 5 minutes before time. What is the time?

Mr. Williams. Five before 12.

Mr. Ball. Did you quit earlier this day?

Mr. Williams. I believe this day we quit about maybe 5 or 10 minutes, because all of us were so anxious to see the President—we quit a little ahead of time, so that we could wash up and we wanted to be sure we would not miss anything.

Mr. Ball. Now, did you go downstairs?

Mr. Williams. We took two elevators down. I mean, speaking as a group, we took two down.

Mr. Ball. Was there some reason you took two down?

Mr. Williams. We always had a little kids game we played racing down with the elevators. And I think one fellow, Charles Givens, had the east elevator, and me, and I think two or three more fellows had the west elevator. And we was racing down.

Mr. Ball. Who was driving the west side elevator?

Mr. Williams. I don't remember exactly who was.

Mr. Ball. You were not?

Mr. Williams. I don't think I was. I don't remember.

Mr. Ball. Who was driving the east side elevator?

Mr. Williams. I think that was Charles Givens.

168 Mr. Ball. Now, did something happen on the way down—did somebody yell out?

Mr. Williams. Yes; on the way down I heard Oswald—and I am not sure whether he was on the fifth or the sixth floor. But on the way down Oswald hollered "Guys, how about an elevator?" I don't know whether those are his exact words. But he said something about the elevator.

And Charles said, "Come on, boy," just like that.

And he said, "Close the gate on the elevator and send the elevator back up."

I don't know what happened after that.

Representative Ford. Had the elevator gone down below the floor from which he yelled?

Mr. Williams. Yes; I believe it was. I assume it was the fifth or the sixth.

The reason I could not tell whether it was the sixth or the fifth is because I was on the opposite elevator, and if you are not thinking about it it is kind of hard to judge which floor, if you started moving.

Representative Ford. The elevator did not go back up to the floor from which he yelled?

Mr. Williams. No, sir.

Mr. Dulles. Did he ask the gate be closed on the elevator?

Mr. Williams. I think he asked Charles Givens—I think he said, "Close the gate on the elevator, or send one of the elevators back up."

I think that is what he said.

Mr. McCloy. That is in order that he would have an elevator to come down when he wanted to come down?

Mr. Williams. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. On the 23d of November 1963, you talked to two FBI agents according to the record I have here, Bardwell Odum and Will Griffin, and they reported that you said that as they were going down, that you saw Lee on the fifth floor.

Mr. Williams. I told him the fifth or the sixth. I told him I wasn't sure about it.

Mr. Ball. And were you sure at that time?

Mr. Williams. About which floor it was?

Mr. Ball. Yes.

Mr. Williams. No; I wasn't.

Mr. Ball. Are you sure today?

Mr. Williams. I am not sure today.

Mr. Ball. But you think it was the fifth or the sixth floor?

Mr. Williams. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Are you sure it was Oswald you talked to?

Mr. Williams. I am sure it was Oswald. I didn't talk to him.

Mr. Ball. But you heard him?

Mr. Williams. I heard him.

Mr. Ball. You went down to the first floor.

What did you do?

Mr. Williams. We went down to the first floor. I think the first thing I did, I washed up, then I went into the domino room where I kept my lunch, and I got my lunch, came back out and went back up.

Mr. Ball. Did you carry your lunch that day?

Mr. Williams. Yes; I did.

Mr. Ball. Do you usually carry your lunch to work?

Mr. Williams. Yes; I do.

Mr. Ball. That was your habit, carrying your lunch?

Mr. Williams. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. And that day, on November 22d, how did you carry your lunch from home to work?

Mr. Williams. I carried my lunch from home to work in a brown paper bag. I believe it was size No. 6 or maybe 8—paper bag.

Mr. Ball. Number 6 or 8 size paper bag?

Mr. Williams. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Small bag?

Mr. Williams. Yes, sir.

169 Mr. Ball. Like you get in the grocery store?

Mr. Williams. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. What did you have in your lunch?

Mr. Williams. I had a chicken sandwich.

Mr. Ball. Describe the sandwich. What did it have in it besides chicken?

Mr. Williams. Well, it just had chicken in it. Chicken on the bone.

Mr. Ball. Chicken on the bone?

Mr. Williams. Yes.

Mr. Ball. The chicken was not boned?

Mr. Williams. It was just chicken on the bone. Just plain old chicken.

Mr. Ball. Did it have bread around it?

Mr. Williams. Yes, it did.

Mr. Ball. Before you went upstairs, did you get anything to drink?

Mr. Williams. I got a small bottle of Dr. Pepper from the Dr. Pepper machine.

Mr. Ball. Did you have anything else in your lunch besides chicken?

Mr. Williams. I had a bag of Fritos, I believe it was.

Mr. Ball. Anything else?

Mr. Williams. No; I believe that was all.

Mr. Ball. You say you went back upstairs. Where did you go?

Mr. Williams. I went back up to the sixth floor.

Mr. Ball. Why did you go to the sixth floor?

Mr. Williams. Well, at the time everybody was talking like they was going to watch from the sixth floor. I think Billy Lovelady said he wanted to watch from up there. And also my friend; this Spanish boy, by the name of Danny Arce, we had agreed at first to come back up to the sixth floor. So I thought everybody was going to be on the sixth floor.

Mr. Ball. Did anybody go back?

Mr. Williams. Nobody came back up. So I just left.

Mr. Ball. Where did you eat your lunch?

Mr. Williams. I ate my lunch—I am not sure about this, but the third or the fourth set of windows, I believe.

Mr. Ball. Facing on what street?

Mr. Williams. Facing Elm Street.

Mr. McCloy. What floor?

Mr. Williams. Sixth floor.

Mr. Dulles. You ate your lunch on the sixth floor?

Mr. Williams. Yes, sir.

Mr. Dulles. And you were all alone?

Mr. Williams. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. What did you sit on while you ate your lunch?

Mr. Williams. First of all, I remember there was some boxes behind me. I just kind of leaned back on the boxes first. Then I began to get a little impatient, because there wasn't anyone coming up. So I decided to move to a two-wheeler.

Mr. Ball. A two-wheeler truck, you mean?

Mr. Williams. Yes, sir. I remember sitting on this two-wheeler.

By that time, I was through, and I got up and I just left then.

Mr. Dulles. How much of the room could you see as you finished your lunch there? Was your view obstructed by boxes of books, or could you see a good bit of the sixth floor?

Mr. Williams. Well, at the time I couldn't see too much of the sixth floor, because the books at the time were stacked so high. I could see only in the path that I was standing—as I remember, I could not possibly see anything to the east side of the building.

But just one aisle, the aisle I was standing in I could see just about to the west side of the building. So far as seeing to the east and behind me, I could only see down the aisle behind me and the aisle to the west of me.

Representative Ford. Have you ever had any trouble with the law at all?

Mr. Williams. No, sir.

Representative Ford. No difficulty as far as the law is concerned?

Mr. Williams. I have never been inside of a courthouse before.

170 Mr. Ball. I have an exhibit here marked 484.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 484 for identification.)

Mr. Ball. Do you recognize that?

Mr. Williams. Yes, sir; I recognize that.

Mr. Ball. What do you see?

Mr. Williams. I see a two-wheeler, a Dr. Pepper bottle, and some boxes in the windows.

Mr. Ball. And is that anywhere near where you were sitting?

Mr. Williams. Yes, sir; that is the exact place I was sitting.

Mr. Ball. That is the two-wheeler you were sitting on?

Mr. Williams. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Now, when you were on the two-wheeler, as you were sitting there, did you have a view, could you see down towards the southeast corner?

Mr. Williams. No, sir; I couldn't see anything as I remember there. About the only thing that I could see from there would be just the top edge of the window, because the boxes were stacked up.

Mr. Ball. The boxes were stacked up high?

Mr. Williams. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Let me show you another picture here.

Mr. Dulles. You are not introducing that at this time?

Mr. Ball. I will. I am going to introduce them all.

Let's go back to the diagram, which is 483. Could you mark on this diagram the window that is shown in this picture 484—that is, the place where you were sitting and eating your lunch?

Mr. Williams. That would be facing Elm Street. I would say right around in this.

Mr. Ball. In other words, you are marking here something between—some area between the third and the fourth window.

Mr. Williams. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. You are not able to tell exactly?

Mr. Williams. No; I am not.

Mr. Ball. The witness has drawn a red rectangle to show the approximate area which runs from about the center of the second row of windows from the southeast corner over to about the fourth pane of windows.

Mr. Williams. I would say about right in here, third or fourth.

Mr. Ball. Third or fourth?

Mr. Williams. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Now, you have made two marks, so I will identify the last mark. Between the third and fourth, is that right?

Mr. Williams. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. We will mark the rectangle, and we will mark it "W-3" and "W-4" the end of the lines.

Mr. McCloy. What time of day was this, when you were eating your lunch?

Mr. Williams. About 12.

Mr. McCloy. Just 12?

Mr. Williams. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Now, as you looked towards the southeast corner from where you were sitting, could you see the windows in the southeast corner?

Mr. Williams. In the southeast—that is—the southeast. I really don't remember if I seen anything—it would be just the top edge of the window, as I remember.

Mr. Ball. Did you see anyone else up there that day?

Mr. Williams. No, I did not.

Mr. Ball. How long did you stay there?

Mr. Williams. I was there from—5, 10, maybe 12 minutes.

Mr. Ball. Finish your lunch?

Mr. Williams. Yes, sir. No longer than it took me to finish the chicken sandwich.

Mr. Ball. Did you eat the chicken?

Mr. Williams. Yes, I did.

Mr. Ball. Where did you put the bones?

171 Mr. Williams. I don't remember exactly, but I think I put some of them back in the sack. Just as I was ready to go I threw the sack down.

Mr. Ball. What did you do with the sack?

Mr. Williams. I think I just dropped it there.

Mr. Ball. Anywhere near the two-wheeler?

Mr. Williams. I think it was.

Mr. Ball. What did you do with the Dr. Pepper bottle?

Mr. Williams. Just set it down on the floor.

Mr. Ball. There is a pop bottle that you see in the picture, 484—does that look like anything like the pop bottle that you were drinking from that day?

Mr. Williams. I believe that was the bottle—I believe. I am not sure. But it looks like it.

Mr. Ball. Did you leave the bottle somewhere near the point shown of the bottle shown on 484?

Mr. Williams. I am really not sure about it. I don't think I left it there. I am not sure. I think I left it sitting up on top of the boxes, right to the side of the two-wheeler. As I remember—I am not sure about it. It is possible that I could have put it there.

Mr. Ball. Your memory is that the Dr. Pepper bottle was left on top of the boxes?

Mr. Williams. Beg pardon?

Mr. Ball. Your memory is that you left the Dr. Pepper bottle on top of some of the cartons?

Mr. Williams. As I remember. I am not sure.

Mr. Ball. It is shown there on the floor.

Mr. Williams. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Where did you go when you left there?

Mr. Williams. I went down to the fifth floor.

Mr. Ball. How did you get down there?

Mr. Williams. I took an elevator down.

Mr. Ball. You didn't go down the stairs?

Mr. Williams. No, sir.

Mr. Ball. Which elevator did you take?

Mr. Williams. I took the east elevator down.

Mr. Ball. Is that the one that is worked with a hand——

Mr. Williams. Yes, sir. That is the one with the one gate, and works with the hand pedal.

Mr. Ball. How does the other one work?

Mr. Williams. The other one worked by push button. You have two gates to pull. That is the one you can pull two gates on and it will come back up by itself. The east side elevator won't come up unless someone is operating.

Mr. Ball. You took the elevator from the sixth floor to the fifth floor?

Mr. Williams. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Where did you intend to go when you left the sixth floor?

Mr. Williams. I intended to stop on the fifth floor, and if there wasn't anyone there, I intended to get out of the building, go outside.

Mr. Ball. Well, you stopped on the fifth floor. Why?

Mr. Williams. Beg pardon?

Mr. Ball. Why did you stop on the fifth floor?

Mr. Williams. To see if there was anyone there.

Mr. Ball. Did you know there was anyone there before you started down?

Mr. Williams. Well, I thought I heard somebody walking, the windows moving or something. I said maybe someone is down there, I said to myself. And I just went on down.

Mr. Ball. Did you find anybody there?

Mr. Williams. As I remember, when I was walking up, I think Harold Norman and James Jarman—as I remember, they was down facing the Elm Street on the fifth floor, as I remember.

Mr. Ball. Now, I want to call your attention to another report I have here.

On the 23d of November 1963, the report of Mr. Odum and Mr. Griffin, FBI agents, is that you told them that you went from the sixth floor to the fifth172 floor using the stairs at the west end of the building. Did you tell them that?

Mr. Williams. I didn't tell them I was using the stairs. I came back down to the fifth floor in the same elevator I came up to the sixth floor on.

Mr. Ball. You did?

Mr. Williams. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Now, also, on January 14th, did you remember talking to a couple of agents named Carter and Griffin?

Mr. Williams. I can't remember their names, but I am sure I did.

Mr. Ball. You talked to a good many of them?

Mr. Williams. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Well, they reported here that you went down to the fifth floor, and you did so by going down on the west elevator.

Mr. Williams. The east elevator. The reason I was able to determine whether it was the east elevator is because I think when you questioned us the other day, the other fellows—I told you I didn't remember which elevator first. But the other fellows said they had the west elevator. There are only two elevators. If they are sure they had the west elevator up, that only leaves the east elevator.

Mr. Ball. When you got to the fifth floor and left the elevator, at that time were both elevators on the fifth floor?

Mr. Williams. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Both west and east?

Mr. Williams. Yes, sir, as I remember.

Mr. Ball. The other day, when I talked to you in Dallas, on Friday 20 March——

Mr. Williams. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. And at that time were you able—did you remember which elevator it was?

Mr. Williams. Which elevator I had?

Mr. Ball. What you had come down from six to five on.

Mr. Williams. As I remember, I first said I wasn't sure. After the fellows said they brought the west elevator up, I said I must have the east elevator.

Mr. Ball. Is it fair to say now that you don't have any definite memory as to whether it was the east or west elevator?

Mr. Williams. Yes, sir. I believe that would be true.

Mr. Ball. But you did bring an elevator up?

Mr. Williams. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. Ball. Now, when you came down there and got off that elevator, did you notice that the other elevator was also on that floor?

Mr. Williams. Well, at the time I didn't notice it.

Mr. Ball. Did you, later?

Mr. Williams. No, sir; as I remember.

Mr. Ball. You don't remember?

Mr. Williams. No, sir; I don't remember.

Mr. Ball. When you got off the elevator, you went over to the front of the building, the Elm Street side.

Mr. Williams. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. Ball. And you saw Norman and——

Mr. Dulles. Mr. Ball, could we get the time element?

Mr. Ball. I am going to bring that in.

Mr. Dulles. All right. I will bide my time.

Mr. Ball. You went over to the front of the building, did you?

Mr. Williams. Yes.

Mr. Ball. And you saw your two friends, Norman and Jarman?

Mr. Williams. Yes.

Mr. Ball. You had known them before?

Mr. Williams. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Now, do you know what time that was?

Mr. Williams. I do not know the exact time.

Mr. Ball. It was——

173 Mr. Williams. It was after I had left the sixth floor, after I had eaten the chicken sandwich. I finished the chicken sandwich maybe 10 or 15 minutes after 12. I could say approximately what time it was.

Mr. Ball. Approximately what time was it?

Mr. Williams. Approximately 12:20, maybe.

Mr. Ball. Well, now, when you talked to the FBI on the 23d day of November, you said that you went up to the sixth floor about 12 noon with your lunch, and you stayed only about 3 minutes, and seeing no one you came down to the fifth floor, using the stairs at the west end of the building.

Now, do you think you stayed longer than 3 minutes up there?

Mr. Williams. I am sure I stayed longer than 3 minutes.

Mr. Ball. Do you remember telling the FBI you only stayed 3 minutes up there?

Mr. Williams. I do not remember telling them I only stayed 3 minutes.

Mr. Ball. And then on this 14th of January 1964, when you talked to Carter and Griffin, they reported that you told them you went down to the fifth floor around 12:05 p.m., and that around 12:30 p.m. you were watching the Presidential parade.

Now, do you remember telling them you went down there about 12:05 p.m.?

Mr. Williams. I remember telling the fellows that—they asked me first, they said, "How long did it take you to finish the sandwich?" I said, "Maybe 5 to 10 minutes, maybe 15 minutes." Just like I said here. I don't remember saying for a definite answer that it was 5 minutes.

Mr. Ball. Well, is it fair to say that you do not remember the exact time now?

Mr. Williams. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. You do remember, though, that you ate your lunch and drank your pop, your Doctor Pepper, before you came down?

Mr. Williams. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Were you there any length of time before the Presidential parade came by?

Mr. Williams. Well, sir, on the fifth floor?

Mr. Ball. On the fifth floor, yes, with your two friends, Norman and Jarman.

Mr. Williams. I was there a while before it came around.

Mr. Ball. You were at what window?

Mr. Williams. Well, I believe we was on the east side of the window, and I think Hank was—I think he was directly under the sixth floor window where Oswald was supposed to have shot the President from. And I think I was a window over. And I think James Jarman was two or three windows over.

Mr. Ball. I will show you a picture here, which is 482. Do you see yourself in that picture?

Mr. Williams. Yes, sir; I am right here.

Mr. Ball. All right. Draw a dark line down there towards you and put an arrow on the end. I will mark that W; the arrow W on 482 points to you, Bonnie Ray Williams.

Mr. Williams. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Is that about the way you were sitting in the window?

Mr. Williams. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. And you were watching the parade?

Mr. Williams. I don't remember whether I was watching the parade here or not. But I was in the window, that window.

Mr. Ball. Do you recognize the man in the window to the right of us as we look at the picture?

Mr. Williams. Yes, sir; that is Harold Norman.

Mr. Ball. Now, here is another photograph which is 480, giving more of the front of the building. Can you tell us in what window your friend Jarman was sitting, or watching?

Mr. Williams. I believe this is James Jarman right here.

Mr. Ball. All right. Draw a line down to that on 480. Draw an arrow to the window.

Mr. Williams. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. We will mark that W on 480.

174 Now, were you boys sitting down or standing up?

Mr. Williams. Are you referring to the picture?

Mr. Ball. No, I am talking about your memory now as to what you were doing at the time you were watching for the Presidential parade.

Mr. Williams. At the time we were watching for the President's parade, I believe I was in a squat position. But I don't remember whether I was on my knees or just squatting on the balls of my feet.

Mr. Ball. When the parade went by, how were you—squatting?

Mr. Williams. As the parade went by, I was in a squat position.

Mr. Ball. Last Friday you went up to the sixth floor, or the fifth floor with us, and a photographer, and you three men got into position, did you not?

Mr. Williams. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. To have your pictures taken.

Mr. Williams. Yes; we did.

Mr. Ball. I can only ask you about your position. First of all, we will mark this as 485.

(The photograph was marked Commission Exhibit No. 485 for identification.)

Mr. Ball. I will mark this photograph as 486.

(The photograph was marked Exhibit No. 486 for identification.)

Mr. Ball. 485 is a picture of three men. You were there when that picture was taken?

Mr. Williams. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Who are the men who are there?

Mr. Williams. First of all in the corner of the east of the building is Harold Norman. Secondly, the fellow over from me, that would be James Jarman.

Mr. Ball. Who is the man in the center?

Mr. Williams. That is me.

Mr. Ball. Is that about the way you were sitting when you watched the parade?

Mr. Williams. I believe it was at the time.

Mr. Ball. Now, I show you 486 and who are the men in that position?

Mr. Williams. In this picture here, 486—this fellow—the other fellow in the corner, in the east of the building, is Harold Norman. I am in the window next to him.

Mr. Ball. Your back is to the picture?

Mr. Williams. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Is that about the position you were in when the President's parade went by?

Mr. Williams. I believe it was.

Mr. Ball. Now, what do you remember happened when the President's parade went by?

Mr. Williams. Well, to the best of my ability, what I remember was first coming off of—I believe it was Main Street—well, two motorcycle policemen came around. I think it was two or maybe three. They came around first. And then I think the President's car followed. And I believe a car was behind it carrying the Vice President, as I remember. I am not sure about it. President Kennedy was sitting in the back seat. I believe his wife was in the back seat. I believe Governor Connally was sitting in the front seat of the car as it was going down the street—I believe——

Mr. McCloy. What street are you talking about there? Are you talking about Main Street, Houston Street, or Elm Street?

Mr. Williams. First of all, as I say, they was coming off of Main Street. Then as it turned the corner, the corner which I am speaking of, most people refer to it as Elm Street. But it is not really Elm Street. I believe it is the start of the turnpike, because Elm Street runs parallel with the building, but comes to a dead end.

Mr. Ball. Did you see the parade come up Houston, north on Houston?

Mr. Williams. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. Ball. And then you saw it turn to the left in front of your building?

Mr. Williams. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Now tell us what happened after the President's car had passed your window.

175 Mr. Williams. After the President's car had passed my window, the last thing I remember seeing him do was, you know—it seemed to me he had a habit of pushing his hair back. The last thing I saw him do was he pushed his hand up like this. I assumed he was brushing his hair back. And then the thing that happened then was a loud shot—first I thought they were saluting the President, somebody—even maybe a motorcycle backfire. The first shot—there was two shots rather close together. The second and the third shot was closer together than the first shot and the second shot, as I remember.

Mr. Ball. Now, was your head out the window?

Mr. Williams. I could not say for sure. I do not remember.

Mr. Ball. Did you notice—where did you think the shots came from?

Mr. Williams. Well, the first shot—I really did not pay any attention to it, because I did not know what was happening. The second shot, it sounded like it was right in the building, the second and third shot. And it sounded—it even shook the building, the side we were on. Cement fell on my head.

Mr. Ball. You say cement fell on your head?

Mr. Williams. Cement, gravel, dirt, or something, from the old building, because it shook the windows and everything. Harold was sitting next to me, and he said it came right from over our head. If you want to know my exact words, I could tell you.

Mr. Ball. Tell us.

Mr. Williams. My exact words were, "No bull shit." And we jumped up.

Mr. Ball. Norman said what?

Mr. Williams. He said it came directly over our heads. "I can even hear the shell being ejected from the gun hitting the floor." But I did not hear the shell being ejected from the gun, probably because I wasn't paying attention.

Mr. Ball. Norman said he could hear it?

Mr. Williams. He said he could hear it. He was directly under the window that Oswald shot from.

Mr. Ball. He was directly under. He told you as he got up from the window that he could hear the shells ejected from the gun?

Mr. Williams. Yes; he did.

Mr. Ball. After he made the statement that you mentioned, he thought it came from overhead, and you made some statement, did Jarman say anything?

Mr. Williams. I think Jarman, he—I think he moved before any of us. He moved towards us, and he said, "Man, somebody is shooting at the President." And I think I said again. "No bull shit." And then we all kind of got excited, you know, and, as I remember, I don't remember him saying that he thought the shots came from overhead. But we all decided we would run down to the west side of the building.

Mr. Ball. You ran down to the west side of the building?

Mr. Williams. Yes, sir.

Representative Ford. Ran down to the west side? You mean you were still on the fifth floor?

Mr. Williams. Yes; we were on the fifth floor, the east side of the building. We saw the policemen and people running, scared, running—there are some tracks on the west side of the building, railroad tracks. They were running towards that way. And we thought maybe—well, to ourself, we know the shots practically came from over our head. But since everybody was running, you know, to the west side of the building, towards the railroad tracks, we assumed maybe somebody was down there. And so we all ran that way, the way that the people was running, and we was looking out the window.

Mr. Ball. When the cement fell on your head, did either one of the men notice it and say anything about it?

Mr. Williams. Yes, sir. I believe Harold was the first one.

Mr. Ball. That is Hank Norman?

Mr. Williams. I believe he was the first one. He said "Man, I know it came from there. It even shook the building." He said, "You got something on your head." And then James Jarman said, "Yes, man, don't you brush it out." By that time I just forgot about it. But after I got downstairs I think I brushed it out anyway.

Mr. Ball. Jarman is called Junior?

176 Mr. Williams. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Well, did Norman say anything about hearing the bolt of the rifle?

Mr. Williams. I don't remember him saying anything about it.

Mr. Ball. But you heard him say he could hear the cartridges?

Mr. Williams. I heard Harold Norman—pardon me, I thought you were saying James Jarman.

Mr. Ball. Did Norman say anything about the bolt?

Mr. Williams. Yes. He said he could hear the rifle, and it sounded like it was right above. He said he could hear the rifle being ejected, the shells hitting the floor.

Mr. Ball. But you could not hear this?

Mr. Williams. No; I could not hear it.

Mr. Ball. That was an old floor, wasn't it?

Mr. Williams. Yes; it was.

Mr. Ball. Could you see light through the floor from the fifth to the sixth floor as you would look above your window?

Mr. Williams. Well, at the time, that day of November 22d, I did not notice that. But the other day when you were questioning me, even after the thick new floor that was put over the old floor on the sixth floor, well, you still could see light. And the new floor extended a little beyond the old floor. So therefore I would say that you could see light much more when the old floor was there.

Mr. Ball. When you were there the other day, you looked up through a crack in the ceiling of the fifth floor?

Mr. Williams. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Could you see the new floor?

Mr. Williams. You could. You could see daylight through.

Mr. Ball. Now, where was that crack with reference to the wall of the fifth floor?

Mr. Williams. With reference to the wall of the fifth floor, the crack that I was speaking about was directly over my head, and also directly over Norman's head.

Mr. Ball. And that would be where the floor would ordinarily make a joint with the wall?

Mr. Williams. With the wall.

Mr. Ball. You say you ran down to the west window.

Mr. Williams. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. From where you were?

Mr. Williams. Yes, sir. First of all——

Mr. Ball. I will take this same diagram——

Mr. Williams. First of all we made a stop before we got to the last stop that we was when the policeman came up.

Mr. Ball. Yes. That is where I want you to show me now, where you made the stop. This is the fifth floor diagram.

We will mark the fifth floor diagram as Exhibit 487.

(The document so described was marked Commission Exhibit No. 487 for identification.)

Mr. Ball. This is Elm Street on 487, and here are the windows where you have shown us you were standing.

Mr. Williams. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Now, will you show us the direction that you ran and also point to the window?

Mr. Williams. The direction that we ran after we heard the shots was—I would say I was in about this position here, this window. And we left like this. Harold was coming from here.

Mr. Ball. Let me show you the diagram. Here are these two pair of windows that are shown here on this diagram. This is the corner. Here is the next window, and here is the next window.

Now, take the pencil and show where you were and where you ran to.

Mr. Williams. I was right here.

Mr. Ball. Mark an X, and bring it on down, and show us.

177 Mr. Williams. I left here, and I came like this. The other fellows followed like this. We all was running this direction here. And I believe when we got to this point here, we stopped. And I am not sure, but I think James Jarman, he raised this window, this corner window here, and we all huddled in this corner window.

Mr. Ball. We will mark that window Y. And then you ran from X to Y, you three men?

Mr. Williams. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Was the window open or closed?

Mr. Williams. I think it was closed at the time.

Mr. Ball. Was it opened then?

Mr. Williams. I believe James Jarman opened the window.

Mr. Ball. Now, the other day, when you were up here, you three men went to that window and stood there and had your picture taken, did you not?

Mr. Williams. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. This window which you have shown as Y, in 487, the diagram of the fifth floor.

Mr. Williams. That's right.

Mr. Ball. Here is 488.

(The document so described was marked Commission Exhibit No. 488 for identification.)

Mr. Ball. Is that the window?

Mr. Williams. Yes; it is.

Mr. Ball. And is that about the way you were standing as you looked out to the west?

Mr. Williams. That is about the way we were standing.

Mr. Ball. Did you run fast towards the west?

Mr. Williams. We did. We moved rather fast. We was at a trotting pace.

Mr. Dulles. Was that to get a better view of the President's party in the car?

Mr. Williams. No, sir; I don't think—we knew the President had been shot at at that time. The car was gone, you know. It has speeded up and left. But the people, as I said before, the policemen and people were running towards the tracks. The tracks are at this side of the building. We wondered why they were running that way.

Mr. Dulles. How did you know the President was shot at this time?

Mr. Williams. We heard the shots, and we assumed somebody had shot him. And we decided to run down that way.

Representative Ford. Why didn't you go up to the sixth floor?

Mr. Williams. I really don't know. We just never did think about it. And after we had made this last stop, James Jarman said, "Maybe we better get the hell out of here." And so we just ran down to the fourth floor, and came on down. We never did think about it, going up to the sixth floor. Maybe it was just because we were frightened.

Mr. Dulles. Did you know the President had been hit?

Mr. Williams. Well, personally I did not know he had been hit, but I think Harold—I remember—I don't know whether he said or not—but I think he said he saw him slump. So from that I think we all assumed he had been shot at.

Mr. Dulles. One of the other two?

Mr. Williams. Yes, sir; I think it was.

Mr. Dulles. Said that?

Mr. Williams. Yes, sir; I believe that is what he said. Anyway, we knew he had been shot at.

Mr. Ball. After you left this corner window in the southwest corner that we have shown you the picture of as 488, where did you go?

Mr. Williams. Then we moved over to another window on the west side of the building.

Mr. Ball. Let's go back to the diagram of the fifth floor, 487, and you show me where that window was.

Mr. Williams. It was one of these windows, I believe it was this window here, I believe. Maybe it was this window. I would say this window.

Mr. Ball. All right. We will mark that Z—window Z.

178 Mr. Williams. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. And the other day, Friday, March 20th, when we were in Dallas, you three men went to that same window, didn't you?

Mr. Williams. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. And you had your picture taken?

Mr. Williams. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. That is 489.

(The described document was marked Commission Exhibit No. 489 for identification.)

Mr. Ball. Is that about it?

Mr. Williams. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Why did you go there and look in that direction?

Mr. Williams. Because, as I said before, the policeman was running toward the tracks.

Mr. Ball. The tracks shown in this picture?

Mr. Williams. Yes, sir. I believe that is the parking lot right here.

Mr. Ball. And the tracks are shown in there, aren't they?

Mr. Williams. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. And were people running towards the tracks?

Mr. Williams. Yes, sir; the policemen were.

Representative Ford. Mr. Ball, I hate to interrupt, but I do have to go to a call of the House. I wonder if I could ask one question right here. I dislike breaking up the sequence.

Mr. Williams, when did you first know that the President's motorcade would come by the Texas School Book Depository?

Mr. Williams. Well, I never did know the exact time. But I think my wife had mentioned it before that Friday. She had told me, because I never did have too much time reading the paper. And that morning, that Friday morning, we was on the sixth floor, and I think some fellows mentioned it to me again, some of the fellows working with me.

Representative Ford. You did not know the motorcade was coming by your building until Friday morning?

Mr. Williams. No, sir; I didn't know the exact way it was coming, because I hadn't been reading the papers.

Representative Ford. You had not read the paper the day before?

Mr. Williams. About the only thing I would read in the paper in the mornings before I leave home would be the sports.

Representative Ford. Was it discussed in the building that morning of November 22d that the motorcade was coming by the Texas School Book Depository?

Mr. Williams. I believe I heard a couple of fellows say—I don't remember exactly who it was—but I believe I heard them say the motorcade was coming around that way.

Representative Ford. But it was not until Friday that you personally knew it was coming by the building?

Mr. Williams. Yes, sir.

Mr. Dulles. I would like to ask one question here.

When you were on the sixth floor eating your lunch, did you hear anything that made you feel that there was anybody else on the sixth floor with you?

Mr. Williams. No, sir; I didn't hear anything.

Mr. Dulles. You did not see anything?

Mr. Williams. I did not see anything.

Mr. Dulles. You were all alone as far as you knew at that time on the sixth floor?

Mr. Williams. Yes, sir.

Mr. Dulles. During that period of from 12 o'clock about to—10 or 15 minutes after?

Mr. Williams. Yes, sir. I felt like I was all alone. That is one of the reasons I left—because it was so quiet.

Mr. McCloy. When you saw Oswald that morning, was he carrying any package? Did you see any bundle or package with him?

Mr. Williams. No, sir; I didn't see anything other than the clipboard with the orders on it that he was filling, as I remember.

179 Mr. McCloy. How many shots did you hear fired?

Mr. Williams. I heard three shots. But at first I told the FBI I only heard two—they took me down—because I was excited, and I couldn't remember too well. But later on, as everything began to die down, I got my memory even a little better than on the 22d, I remembered three shots, because there was a pause between the first two shots. There was two real quick. There was three shots.

Mr. Ball. Did you hear anything upstairs at all?

Mr. Williams. No, sir; I didn't hear anything.

Mr. Ball. Any footsteps?

Mr. Williams. No, sir. Probably the reason we didn't hear anything is because, you know, after the shots we were running, too, and that was making a louder noise.

Mr. Ball. You really ran?

Mr. Williams. Yes, sir; we ran. And that was probably making a lot of noise.

Mr. Ball. Now, I'm going to hold this up. I don't know whether everybody can see it or not——

Mr. Dulles. Could I ask one question in connection with your last question?

Did you hear either of the elevators going up or down while you were eating your meal?

Mr. Williams. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. Dulles. You didn't hear the elevators at all?

Mr. Williams. No, sir.

Mr. Dulles. If an elevator had come to that floor, would you have heard it then?

Mr. Williams. That all depends——

Mr. Dulles. Were they noisy elevators? The operation of the doors and so forth?

Mr. Williams. Yes, sir. The elevator that I came up on to the sixth floor, if you would listen—say you were listening for the boss, you could hear, because you would be paying attention. The elevator is worked by hand pedal. When you release the hand pedal it makes a noise. It bangs—or maybe you can hear the old elevator when it is first coming up. But at that time I did not hear anything.

(At this point, Representative Ford left the hearing room.)

Mr. Ball. I would like to point out over in the northwest corner there is a stairwell. And the elevators are shown here. And the witness has placed himself at point "Z" on Exhibit 487, which is near a pair of west windows.

Now, you are oriented there, are you not?

Mr. Williams. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. All right. When you were at "Z" were you able to see the stairwell?

Mr. Williams. No, sir.

Mr. Ball. Why?

Mr. Williams. You could not see the stairs from that point because this other—this is the stairway, and it has some shelves made out of some old wooden boxes. Those old wooden boxes come out to about right here. And they come out maybe 5 feet, even more than that, past the stairway. And that would block your view of the stairway from that point.

Mr. Ball. Mark it in there with your pencil.

Mr. Williams. These are the stairs. I would say the bookcase would come out like that.

Mr. Ball. The shelf we will mark "WX", both ends of the shelf. How high is the shelf?

Mr. Williams. Pretty high.

Mr. Ball. Does it go to the ceiling?

Mr. Williams. As I remember, they do not go exactly to the ceiling. But I am 6 feet, and they are way over me, I think.

Mr. Ball. Now, could you see all of the elevators from there?

Mr. Williams. Well, by me being the tallest, I saw——

180 Mr. Ball. I am not going into what you saw. But could you see either elevator from where you were standing at "Z"?

Mr. Williams. Yes, sir; you could see this pretty plainly.

Mr. Ball. You mean the west elevator?

Mr. Williams. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Could you see the east elevator?

Mr. Williams. No, sir; you could not see it exactly.

Mr. Ball. Now, when you were questioned by the FBI agents, talking to Mr. Odum and Mr. Griffin, they reported in writing here that while you were standing at the west end of the building on the fifth floor, a police officer came up on the elevator and looked all around the fifth floor and left the floor. Did you see anything like that?

Mr. Williams. Well, at the time I was up there I saw a motorcycle policeman. He came up. And the only thing I saw of him was his white helmet.

Mr. Ball. What did he do?

Mr. Williams. He just came around, and around to the elevator.

Mr. Ball. Which elevator?

Mr. Williams. I believe it was the east elevator.

Mr. Ball. Did you see anybody with him?

Mr. Williams. I did not.

Mr. Ball. You were only able to see the top of his helmet?

Mr. Williams. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. You could only see the top of his helmet?

Mr. Williams. Yes, sir; that is the only thing I saw about it.

Mr. Ball. They reported that you told them on the 23d of November that you and Hank, that is Hank Norman, isn't it——

Mr. Williams. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. And Junior—that is Junior Jarman—were standing where they would have seen anyone coming down from the sixth floor by way of the stairs. Did you tell them that?

Mr. Williams. I could not possibly have told him that, because you cannot see anything coming down from that position.

Mr. Ball. And that you did not see anyone coming down.

Mr. Williams. No, sir. An elephant could walk by there, and you could not see him.

Mr. Ball. That day we were out there, Friday, March 20th, we took some pictures.

Mr. Williams. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. I show you 490.

(The document described was marked Exhibit No. 490 for identification.)

Mr. Ball. We took a picture from where you were standing towards the stairs. Do you recognize that?

Mr. Williams. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. What is that?

Mr. Williams. This is the side we were on. I believe these are the bookshelves I was speaking of.

Mr. Ball. That is the ones that hide the stairwell?

Mr. Williams. That is right.

Mr. Ball. And the camera is—you saw where the camera was set, didn't you?

Mr. Williams. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. You saw these pictures taken?

Mr. Williams. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Where was the camera?

Mr. Williams. The camera was located about the exact place I was standing looking out this window.

Mr. Ball. That would be "Z" on 487?

Mr. Williams. That's right.

Mr. Ball. And was pointed toward what direction?

Mr. Williams. It was pointed towards the stairway and the bookcase.

Mr. Ball. The way you would have been looking on that day?

Mr. Williams. Right.

Mr. Ball. And this shows those shelves.

181 Mr. Williams. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. I have two other pictures I would like to show, and I would like to show the Commissioners all three at the same time.

Now, do you recall that we had you three men stand near the stairwell?

Mr. Williams. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Now, on this picture here, on 487, that would be what location?

Mr. Williams. On this picture here, that would be about right in here.

Mr. Ball. Near the "up", is that right?

Mr. Williams. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. I would like to have the Commissioners note that—that the man was standing near the "up" part of the stairwell.

We took your pictures three in a row, is that right?

Mr. Williams. That is right.

Mr. Ball. And then do you recall the picture was taken?

Mr. Williams. Yes, sir; I recall this picture. This picture was taken from the position we were standing, and it gave the view of—the only thing you would be able to see from this point. And this picture here was James Jarman, which we were standing shoulder to shoulder.

Mr. Ball. Also were the cartons piled at that time so that—as they were here—on the day, November 22d, were the cartons piled somewhat like they are here?

Mr. Williams. They were piled somewhat like here, because they have been rearranged since that time.

Mr. Ball. Now, in both pictures, 492 and 490, you see two windows, do you not?

Mr. Williams. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. And those windows are shown on the diagram of the fifth floor, 487, as where?

Mr. Williams. Right here.

Mr. Ball. The windows next to the west elevator?

Mr. Williams. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. And in this picture, are you able to see either elevator?

Mr. Williams. In this picture?

Mr. Ball. This picture—490 and 492—are you able to see either elevator?

Mr. Williams. No, sir; you cannot see exactly the elevator.

Mr. Ball. Now, in this picture, 491, where is the downstairs?

Mr. Williams. The downstairs come right in here.

Mr. Ball. Are you able to see the opening of the downstairs from this view, 492?

Mr. Williams. No, sir.

Mr. Ball. And the thing that obstructs your view is this shelving, is that right?

Mr. Williams. Yes, sir; that's right.

Mr. Dulles. How long has that shelving been there—for quite a long while? Or was it put there recently?

Mr. Williams. I think it was there from the time I started, as far as I can remember.

Mr. Dulles. That goes back to the time you were first employed there?

Mr. Williams. Yes, sir. At the time I came to the building.

Mr. Dulles. So it could not have been put up a day or two before.

Mr. Williams. No, sir.

Mr. Ball. Did you hear anyone going up or down the stairs?

Mr. Williams. No, I didn't.

Mr. Ball. Did you pay any attention to that?

Mr. Williams. No, sir.

Mr. Ball. As you were standing at the window, did you hear any footsteps?

Mr. Williams. No, sir.

Mr. Ball. Up above—hear any movement up above?

Mr. Williams. No, sir; I don't remember.

Mr. Ball. Were you paying any attention whether or not there was anyone up above?

Mr. Williams. No, sir; we wasn't paying any attention.

182 Mr. Ball. Now, in this FBI report that we have dated the 23d of November 1963, the report that you said that someone might have been coming down on the elevator and you would not have noticed that. Did you say that?

Mr. Williams. I think I remember saying that.

Mr. Ball. After you stood at the west window for a while, what did you do?

Mr. Williams. After we stood at the west window for a while, we decided to go down. Then we left.

Mr. Ball. How did you go down?

Mr. Williams. By stairs.

Mr. Ball. Where did you go?

Mr. Williams. We went to the fourth floor first. Then we paused for a minute there, where we saw these women looking out of the window. Then we decided to go down to the first floor, and we ran on down.

Mr. Ball. When you got to the first floor, what did you see there?

Mr. McCloy. How did you get to the first floor?

Mr. Williams. By stairs.

Mr. Dulles. There were some people on the fourth floor?

Mr. Williams. Yes, sir. I remember seeing maybe two or three women standing in the window, looking out the window.

Mr. Dulles. Looking out the window?

Mr. Williams. Yes, sir.

Mr. McCloy. Which stairway did they take, west or east?

Mr. Ball. There was only one stairway, and that is the one in the corner.

Did you run down stairs?

Mr. Williams. Yes, sir; we ran.

Mr. Ball. When you got to the first floor, what did you see?

Mr. Williams. When we arrived to the first floor, the first thing I noticed was that the policemen had rushed in. I think some firemen came in with a water hose. And then the next thing that happened, these detectives, or maybe FBI—anyway, they stopped us all and they said, "Do you work here?" And we told them yes. And they took our name, address, and they searched everybody. And then the other fellow—I think one fellow asked whether we had been working upstairs. I think we told him yes. They got out all the fellows I think that was working on the sixth floor at the time, and they took us all down to the courthouse, I think, and we had to fill out some affidavits and things.

Mr. Ball. You made out an affidavit there?

Mr. Williams. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Did you go out of the building shortly after you came downstairs?

Mr. Williams. They wouldn't let anybody out of the building.

Mr. Ball. How long after you came down from the first floor were you taken over to the Police Department?

Mr. Williams. I couldn't give you the exact time, but it wasn't long.

Mr. Ball. You can't give me any estimate in minutes?

Mr. Williams. No, sir; I would not want to say.

Mr. Dulles. Did you see Lee Oswald at any time during this period?

Mr. Williams. No, sir; I don't remember seeing him.

Mr. Ball. Were the police with you?

Mr. Williams. Yes; they were.

Mr. Ball. Were your two friends with you, Jarman and——

Mr. Williams. No; they wasn't with me. First I think they took me and another fellow, Danny—they took us in one car. Then they took some other fellows in another car, and then another car, I think.

Mr. Ball. You were with Danny Arce and one or two police officers?

Mr. Williams. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Anybody else?

Mr. Williams. That's all.

Mr. Ball. Do you know when Norman and Jarman went out?

Mr. Williams. Well, at the time I don't think Norman and Jarman came down right then. They brought Bill Shelley and Bill Lovelady, a fellow by the name of Jack Dougherty, and Charles Givens later on, they brought them right behind us.

183 Mr. Ball. When you left the first floor with the officers, was Norman still there?

Mr. Williams. Yes, sir; he was in the building.

Mr. Ball. And was Jarman still there?

Mr. Williams. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. I would like to offer all of the exhibits that we marked so far into evidence.

Mr. Dulles. Could you give me the numbers?

Mr. Ball. I think they run 483 to 492, inclusive.

Mr. Dulles. Was 481 introduced?

Mr. Ball. If 481 and 482 were not, we offer them. 483 is a diagram of the sixth floor. We offer that. Everything this morning from 477 to 492 we offer in evidence. The last number is 492.

Mr. Dulles. All exhibits subsequent to the last exhibit noted in the record up to and including 492 will be admitted.

(The material heretofore marked Exhibits Nos. 481 through 492, inclusive, previously marked for identification, were received in evidence.)

Mr. McCloy. I have some questions.

When you came downstairs, do you remember seeing a man named Brennan, and did a man named Brennan identify you downstairs?

Mr. Williams. No, sir; I don't remember that.

Mr. McCloy. No one that you know—no one said, "This is the man I have seen on the fifth floor window?"

Mr. Williams. No, sir.

Mr. McCloy. Were you physically kept from leaving the building when you got downstairs? Did you try to go out of the building?

Mr. Williams. No, sir; I wasn't trying to go out of the building because there wasn't any use of trying to, because at the time we arrived on the first floor, I heard an officer shout out and say, "No one leave the building."

Mr. McCloy. Have you got any appreciation of the time that elapsed between your hearing the first shot and the time that you got finally down to the first floor, after you had been on the fifth floor and the fourth floor?

Mr. Williams. No, sir; I could not give you any time.

Mr. McCloy. Well, you did not give us any time. Do you have any recollection now of about how long that was? Was it 15 minutes, 10 minutes, 20 minutes? How long did it take from the time that you were looking out that window and you heard that shot until you did get down to the first floor?

Mr. Williams. Well, I could say approximately 15 minutes, maybe a little before then, maybe after. I could not say exactly.

Mr. Dulles. Do you know what time it was when you went off and left for the police station?

Mr. Williams. I could not give you the exact time.

Mr. McCloy. Do you know whether or not anybody got out of the building before the police could get there? Did any of your friends or the people you were working with, did you hear whether any of them had left the building before the building was closed?

Mr. Williams. Yes, sir; I heard Mr. Truly—he said that—he mentioned that—he said, "Where is Lee?" That is what everybody called him. "Where is Lee?", he said, and therefore I assume he did not know where Lee was, that he was out of the building, because everybody else was there. And there was another colored fellow by the name of Charles Givens. He wasn't in the building at the time. He was downtown somewhere.

Mr. McCloy. Had he been at the building at the time of the shooting—Givens?

Mr. Williams. I don't believe he had.

Mr. Dulles. What did Mr. Truly say about Lee not being there?

Mr. Williams. The only thing I heard him say is—I think an officer asked him, "Is everyone here?" And he said, "Where is Lee?"—like that, you know.

Mr. Dulles. Mr. Truly said that?

Mr. Williams. Yes, sir.

Mr. McCloy. Do you know the name of the first policeman that accosted you, who stopped you?

Mr. Williams. No, sir.

184 Mr. McCloy. Are you familiar with firearms?

Mr. Williams. No, sir.

Mr. McCloy. Do you ever do any hunting?

Mr. Williams. No, sir; I never go hunting.

Mr. McCloy. But you have heard shots fired?

Mr. Williams. Yes, sir; I heard my grandfather try a gun out, something like that.

Mr. McCloy. You were not in the army?

Mr. Williams. No, sir; I have never been in the army.

Mr. McCloy. I think that is all I have.

Mr. Dulles. I have one question.

You have referred to three explosions that—one you thought was a backfire or a firecracker.

Mr. Williams. Yes, sir.

Mr. Dulles. Was there any difference in the sound of those three explosions?

Mr. Williams. As far as I remember, there wasn't any difference in the sound. It was just the time between the sound.

Mr. McCloy. As I heard you testify, you said there was a larger pause between the first and the second shot than there was between the second and the third.

Mr. Williams. Yes, sir.

Mr. McCloy. Let me get this clear. Did you see the President crumple after the shot? Did you see the President hit?

Mr. Williams. Personally, I did not see him, because I was kind of jumping.

Mr. Dulles. Are there any other questions?

Thank you very much, and we appreciate your coming. We will recess at this time until 2 o'clock this afternoon.

(Whereupon, at 12:40 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)


Afternoon Session
TESTIMONY OF HOWARD LESLIE BRENNAN RESUMED

The President's Commission reconvened at 2:05 p.m.

Mr. McCloy. The purpose of today's hearing is to have the testimony of Mr. Brennan here and you gentlemen.

Mr. Williams has already appeared before us, and Mr. Norman and Mr. Jarman and also Mr. Truly who will be on the stand later.

You were all witnesses, you were all in the vicinity of the Texas School Book Depository Building at the time of the assassination of President Kennedy, and we are going to ask you to give us your knowledge of the facts such as they come within your knowledge of that event and we will have some questions that we will wish to ask you.

Mr. Ball. The record will show that Harold Norman, whose nickname is Hank, is present and Bonnie Ray Williams and James Jarman, whose nickname is Junior. Mr. Brennan is also.

Mr. Belin. Mr. Brennan, you testified here this morning, is that correct?

Mr. Brennan. Right.

Mr. McCloy. You are still under oath, Mr. Brennan.

Mr. Belin. I believe that you testified that you thought you recognized two of the people that you saw looking out of the fifth floor of the School Book Depository Building you thought you recognized outside of the building sometime after the assassination, is that correct?

The two people that you saw, are they any of these three people here?

Mr. Brennan. Yes. I believe it is the one on the end and this one here, I am not sure.

Mr. Belin. By that you would mean——

Mr. Brennan. I don't know which of those two.

Mr. Ball. Let's identify.

185 Mr. Belin. Which person do you mean, you mean Mr. Norman sitting opposite?

Mr. Brennan. Yes; I believe he was one of them.

Mr. Belin. And you believe it was Mr. Jarman together?

Mr. Brennan. Jarman.

Mr. Belin. Were they with some policeman as they came out of the building or in custody of some plainclothesman?

Mr. Brennan. I don't believe they were.

Mr. Belin. You saw them together come out of the building?

Mr. Brennan. I don't believe they were. I don't recall seeing any officer bring them out or with them.

Mr. Belin. Now you do not believe then that it was Mr. Williams?

Mr. Brennan. No; I won't say for sure. I can't tell which of those two it was.

Mr. Belin. In other words, you say that you can't, when you say you can't tell whether it was Mr. Williams or Mr. Norman, did you just see one person or two?

Mr. Brennan. I saw two but I can't identify which one it was.

Mr. Belin. Could it have been neither one of these persons that you saw?

Mr. Brennan. I think it was one of them. I think it was this boy on the end.

Mr. Belin. You thought it was Mr. Norman. And what about Mr. Jarman?

Mr. Brennan. I believe it was him, too. Am I right or wrong?

Mr. Ball. I don't know.

Mr. Brennan. I explained that to you this morning.

Mr. Ball. I understand.

Any questions?

Mr. McCloy. Did you recognize anyone in this room that you saw in the fifth floor window while you were sitting on the masonry opposite the school book depository?

Mr. Brennan. That is the two boys that I am speaking of now.

Mr. McCloy. That you are speaking of now?

Mr. Brennan. Yes.

Mr. McCloy. You saw these two men in the fifth floor window and you saw them again on the first floor?

Mr. Brennan. Coming out of the building down the stairway, coming out on the street, those were the only two people I could identify.

Mr. Belin. I hand you——

Mr. Brennan. I recall seeing three people with you I——

Mr. Belin. I hand you Exhibit 477 which you testified to this morning was a recent picture taken of the Texas School Book Depository Building on March 20. This is you sitting on that concrete wall?

Mr. Brennan. Right.

Mr. Belin. At first I believe this morning you thought that you saw one person or two people at the point marked B, and then you later said it was to the window which would be to the——

Mr. Brennan. Left.

Mr. Belin. Well, let's talk about directions. This direction here would be to the east and this direction here would be to the west?

Mr. Brennan. Right.

Mr. Belin. Would it be a window to the east or west?

Mr. Brennan. I believe it was a window to the east.

Mr. Belin. So you saw, you believe you saw two people in this window here to the east of the window that you first marked B?

Mr. Brennan. Yes. I am not positive.

Mr. Belin. You are not positive?

Mr. Brennan. No.

Mr. Redlich. Mr. McCloy, may I have permission to ask this question of this witness?

Mr. McCloy. Very well.

Mr. Redlich. You stated that you saw two employees walking down the steps of the building?

Mr. Brennan. Yes.

Mr. Redlich. Do you recall whether the two employees that you saw walking186 down the steps of the building were the same two employees that you saw on the window, in the window on the fifth floor at the easterly most end of the building?

Mr. Brennan. Yes; as far as on the fifth floor and at one of these two windows. The one I circled or this window here.

Mr. Redlich. You mean two of the people that you——

Mr. Brennan. At one of the windows I saw two, two of those people, employees that came down.

Mr. Redlich. But you are not prepared to state which of these three possible windows?

Mr. Brennan. That is right.

Mr. Redlich. By three, I mean the two windows to the east, plus the one window which is circled and marked with a B.

Mr. Brennan. Nothing makes me think that they were in this window but I am in question whether it was this window or this window.

Mr. Redlich. And of the two people that you saw, it is possible you are saying that one might have been in the window marked B and another might have been in a window to the east?

Mr. Brennan. Yes.

Mr. Redlich. Thank you.

Mr. Belin. Mr. Brennan, are you basing your recollection on what you saw during the moments that the shots were fired or on what you saw when you observed these windows prior to the time the motorcade arrived?

Mr. Brennan. What I saw prior. There was no significance to the fact at all. In other words, there is a little difference in your memory there on this.

Mr. Ball. No questions.

You may be excused, Mr. Brennan.

You two men can also be excused and we will call you in a few moments, Mr. Jarman.

Mr. Redlich. We don't need Mr. Williams at all.

Mr. Ball. We don't need you at all.

Mr. Redlich. We may want him back.

Mr. Belin. Don't get too far away.

TESTIMONY OF HAROLD NORMAN

I will ask you if you will please stand and hold up your right hand.

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give in this case will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. Norman. I do.

Mr. Ball. Mr. Norman.

Mr. Norman. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Where do you live?

Mr. Norman. 4858 Beulah Place, Dallas, Tex.

Mr. Ball. Are you married?

Mr. Norman. Yes.

Mr. Ball. How old are you?

Mr. Norman. 26. I will be.

Mr. Ball. Where were you born?

Mr. Norman. Clarksville, Tex.

Mr. Ball. Were you raised in Clarksville?

Mr. Norman. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Go to school there?

Mr. Norman. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. How far did you go to school?

Mr. Norman. I graduated there.

Mr. Ball. From high school?

Mr. Norman. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. In Clarksville?

Mr. Norman. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. What kind of work did you do after you got out of school?

187 Mr. Norman. Well, I remember working in Salina. I did a car washing job at the McElroy Chevrolet Co., and after I left there I came to Dallas and I started working at the depository, the School Book Depository.

Mr. Ball. That was about what year did you start working there?

Mr. Norman. In 1961, I believe.

Mr. Ball. 1961?

Mr. Norman. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. How long did you work there?

Mr. Norman. Well, I think this coming October would have made 3 years.

Mr. Ball. And you work there now?

Mr. Norman. No, sir.

Mr. Ball. Where do you work now?

Mr. Norman. The Foxboro Co.

Mr. Ball. What kind of business is that?

Mr. Norman. Engineer instrumentation.

Mr. Ball. What kind of work do you do?

Mr. Norman. Porter.

Mr. Ball. When did you leave the Texas School Book Depository for this new job?

Mr. Norman. I left during the Christmas holidays and the New Year's leave after we got off for New Year's.

Mr. Ball. In November 1963, this is this last fall, what kind of work were you doing at the Texas School Book Depository?

Mr. Norman. I was employed as an order filler.

Mr. Ball. Is that the same kind of a job that Lee Oswald had?

Mr. Norman. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Did you know him?

Mr. Norman. No; just as an employee, that is all.

Mr. Ball. You didn't know him before he came to work there?

Mr. Norman. No, sir.

Mr. Ball. Did you get acquainted with him after he was there?

Mr. Norman. No. Just knew his name. I mean, you know, he wouldn't talk to anybody so I didn't——

Mr. Ball. He didn't talk to anybody?

Mr. Norman. No.

Mr. Ball. Did you ever engage him in conversation at the time he was there?

Mr. Norman. No, sir. I just, you know, speak to him, that is all. I wouldn't engage in conversation.

Mr. Ball. Are you the boys that use clipboards?

Mr. Norman. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. The order fillers?

Mr. Norman. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Somebody gives you orders by way of papers?

Mr. Norman. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. What do you do after you get an order on a paper?

Mr. Norman. We had a different publisher in the building, and each individual, he had a publisher that he would take, maybe I would take to a publisher and the other orders would and we would fill orders and bring them down to the first floor for them to be checked and shipped out.

Mr. Ball. You have to go up and get the books out of cartons, do you?

Mr. Norman. Yes. If we didn't have enough down in the bins down on the first floor we would have to go upstairs, to complete the orders.

Mr. Ball. Do you fill some of your orders from the first floor?

Mr. Norman. Yes.

Mr. Ball. How many floors did you go to that morning yourself, November 22? Can you remember that?

Mr. Norman. I believe I went as far as the fifth floor that morning.

Mr. Ball. That is as far——

Mr. Norman. Yes.

Mr. Ball. Did you ever go to the sixth floor that day, that morning?

Mr. Norman. I can't—yes, I went up that morning during the time I think they were laying the floor up there when I went up there.

188 Mr. Ball. Did you help them?

Mr. Norman. No; I was just up there shooting the breeze.

Mr. Ball. Now what about Lee Oswald. Do you know what publisher he filled orders for?

Mr. Norman. I knew Scott-Foresman.

Mr. Ball. Scott-Foresman.

Mr. Norman. Yes.

Mr. Ball. That was the publisher assigned to him?

Mr. Norman. Yes. Well, I don't know if he was assigned to him but he filled, you know.

Mr. Ball. He filled those orders?

Mr. Norman. Yes.

Mr. Ball. You say then he filled Scott-Foresman book orders?

Mr. Norman. Yes.

Mr. Ball. Do you know where those books were kept?

Mr. Norman. The majority of them were on the sixth floor.

Mr. Ball. They were?

Mr. Norman. Yes.

Mr. Ball. And did you also keep a stock of Scott-Foresman books on the first floor?

Mr. Norman. Yes.

Mr. Ball. What time did you get to work on the morning of November the 22d?

Mr. Norman. I got there I would say about 5 minutes of 8 o'clock, 5 minutes until 8 in the morning.

Mr. Ball. You weren't late?

Mr. Norman. No; I wasn't.

Mr. Ball. Did you see Lee Oswald when you got to work?

Mr. Norman. No; I don't recall seeing him when I got to work.

Mr. Ball. Did you remember seeing him at any time that morning?

Mr. Norman. Yes; around about 10 or 10:15, somewhere in the neighborhood of that.

Mr. Ball. Where did you see him?

Mr. Norman. Over in the bins by the windows, I mean looking out, you know, at Elm Street, towards Elm Street.

Mr. Ball. On what floor?

Mr. Norman. The first.

Mr. Ball. Looking out on Elm through windows, is that right?

Mr. Norman. Yes, sir. I was looking out the window. He happened to come by to fill orders.

Mr. Ball. Did he say anything to you?

Mr. Norman. No; he didn't.

Mr. Ball. Did you say anything to him?

Mr. Norman. No.

Mr. Ball. Did you see him at any time after that?

Mr. Norman. No; no more. I don't recall seeing him any more that day.

Mr. Ball. What time did you quit for lunch?

Mr. Norman. I believe I quit around 11:45, I think.

Mr. Ball. And what did you do after you quit?

Mr. Norman. Well, I went in, washed up and I——

Mr. Ball. When you go in and wash up, where did you go to wash up?

Mr. Norman. In the men's bathroom.

Mr. Ball. Is that bathroom near the domino room or off the domino room?

Mr. Norman. Yes; that is the one off the domino room.

Mr. Ball. It is the one near the domino room?

Mr. Norman. Yes; one near the domino room.

Mr. Ball. Right next to it?

Mr. Norman. Yes.

Mr. Ball. After you washed up, what did you do?

Mr. Norman. Well, I got my lunch, I ate my lunch in the domino room.

Mr. Ball. Did you bring your lunch from home that day?

Mr. Norman. Yes; I believe I did.

189 Mr. Ball. And in what kind of a package did you bring it?

Mr. Norman. A brown paper sack, paper bag.

Mr. Ball. Where did you keep your lunch or leave your lunch from 8 in the morning until you got it at noon?

Mr. Norman. I left it in the window of the domino room.

Mr. Ball. Did you notice any other packages in that window that morning?

Mr. Norman. I can't say that I noticed any that morning but I know that some of the fellows did keep their lunches in there.

Mr. Ball. Did you notice anything, any unusual package in there that day?

Mr. Norman. No; I didn't.

Mr. Ball. You got your lunch and did you eat your lunch?

Mr. Norman. Yes; I ate my lunch.

Mr. Ball. Where were you when you ate your lunch?

Mr. Norman. In the domino room, as I recall.

Mr. Ball. Who was with you at that time?

Mr. Norman. I can't remember who ate in the lunchroom, I mean the domino room, with me.

Mr. Ball. Did some other employees eat there?

Mr. Norman. I think there was someone else in there because we usually played dominoes in there but that particular day we didn't play that morning.

Mr. Ball. Why didn't you play that morning?

Mr. Norman. Well, didn't nobody show up there to play like the guys usually come in to play.

Mr. Ball. You usually play dominoes during the noon hour?

Mr. Norman. Noon hour and the break period.

Mr. Ball. After you ate your lunch, what did you do?

Mr. Norman. I got with James Jarman, he and I got together on the first floor.

Mr. Ball. Where was James Jarman when you got together with him?

Mr. Norman. He was somewhere in the vicinity of the telephone, I believe. I am not for sure.

Mr. Ball. Out near the bins?

Mr. Norman. Yes.

Mr. Ball. What do you call James Jarman?

Mr. Norman. Junior.

Mr. Ball. And you and Junior did what?

Mr. Norman. We went outside.

Mr. Ball. You went out the front door, did you?

Mr. Norman. Yes.

Mr. Ball. That is the Elm Street?

Mr. Norman. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Where did you stand?

Mr. Norman. We stood on the Elm Street sidewalk.

Mr. Ball. On the sidewalk?

Mr. Norman. Yes. We didn't go any further than that point.

Mr. Ball. What time was it that you went out there?

Mr. Norman. Oh, I would say, I don't know exactly, around 12 or 12:10, something like that.

Mr. Ball. Who was standing with you when you were standing on the sidewalk, on the Elm Street sidewalk?

Mr. Norman. I remember it was Danny Arce.

Mr. Ball. And who else?

Mr. Norman. I remember seeing Mr. Truly and Mr. Campbell. They were standing somewhere behind us, not exactly behind us but they were back of us.

Mr. Ball. Anybody else?

Mr. Norman. Well, I believe Billy Lovelady, I think. He was sitting on the steps there.

Mr. Ball. He was?

Mr. Norman. Yes. That is about all the employees I remember seeing out there. There were more people out there.

Mr. Ball. Did you stay there?

190 Mr. Norman. Well, we stayed there I believe until we got the news that the motorcade was coming down, let's see, is that Commerce, no Main, because Commerce—we went back in the building, James Jarman and I.

Mr. Ball. Where did you go when you went in the building?

Mr. Norman. We got the east elevator. No; the west.

Mr. Ball. The west elevator?

Mr. Norman. The west elevator. And went to the fifth floor.

Mr. Ball. The west elevator is the one you use the push button on?

Mr. Norman. Yes; the one you pull the gate.

Mr. Ball. That is right. It is a push button elevator.

Mr. Norman. Yes.

Mr. Ball. And you went up to the fifth floor?

Mr. Norman. Fifth floor.

Mr. Ball. Why did you go to the fifth floor?

Mr. Norman. Usually, one reason was you usually fill orders, I fill quite a few orders from the fifth floor and I figured I could get, you know, a better view of the parade or motorcade or whatever it is from the fifth floor because I was more familiar with that floor.

Mr. Ball. And what did you and Junior do after you got off the elevator?

Mr. Norman. We walked around to the windows facing Elm Street and I can't recall if any were open or not but I remember we opened some, two or three windows ourselves.

Mr. Ball. Did somebody join you there?

Mr. Norman. Bonnie Ray, I can't remember if he was there when we got there or he came later. I know he was with us a period of time later.

Mr. Ball. And then did he come down before the President's motorcade came by?

Mr. Norman. Yes; he was with us before the motorcade came by.

Mr. Ball. Did you move around any from one window to another before the motorcade?

Mr. Norman. Well, if I did I didn't move no further than those three windows that were open in the front there. I didn't move any further than that.

Mr. Ball. I show you some pictures here. This is Commission Exhibit No. 482. Do you recognize anybody in that window?

Mr. Norman. That is myself and that is Bonnie Ray Williams.

Mr. Ball. "Myself" is pointed to as to the window in the extreme southeast corner of the fifth floor, is that right?

Mr. Norman. Yes.

Mr. Ball. And Bonnie Ray is in the window next to you?

Mr. Norman. Yes.

Mr. Ball. I show you 480. Do you see the window in which you were looking?

Mr. Norman. That window is where I was looking.

Mr. Ball. In other words, you were looking in the extreme southeast corner?

Mr. Norman. Yes.

Mr. Ball. Put over here a red arrow which shows the window from which you were looking.

Mr. Norman. Yes.

Mr. Ball. Here is 482. Do you see your picture in that window?

Mr. Norman. Yes.

Mr. Ball. The same picture?

Mr. Norman. Yes.

Mr. Ball. Point out your picture on 482.

Mr. Norman. That is myself.

Mr. Ball. I will point that out with a red arrow on 482. Now were you standing up or sitting down?

Mr. Norman. I was sitting. I wasn't at all standing up.

Mr. Ball. At the time the President's motorcade went by, how were you sitting?

Mr. Norman. I believe I wasn't on my knees I don't think, but I was in a hunched over position somewhat like this.

Mr. Ball. Last Friday afternoon, that is March 20, you and Junior Jarman and Bonnie Ray Williams went up on the fifth floor with me, didn't you?

191 Mr. Norman. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. And a photographer?

Mr. Norman. Yes.

Mr. Ball. And you took a position; did you?

Mr. Norman. Yes.

Mr. Ball. What position did you take at the window? First of all, what did I ask you to do? What position did I ask you to take?

Mr. Norman. I believe you told us to take the position that we thought we were in during the time of the motorcade.

Mr. Ball. And do you recognize this picture, 486? Do you show in the picture?

Mr. Norman. Yes, sir; that is myself there.

Mr. Ball. You are sitting there looking out a window. How does that picture compare with what you remember as to your position when the President's motorcade went by?

Mr. Norman. Well, I don't think—I think I was facing the window more straight during that time, I mean the motorcade, that I am in this position here.

Mr. Ball. That picture shows you looking out the window down the street, is that right?

Mr. Norman. Yes.

Mr. Ball. And this is a picture of Bonnie Ray also, isn't it?

Mr. Norman. Yes.

Mr. Ball. Now you saw the President go by, did you?

Mr. Norman. Yes.

Mr. Ball. What happened then?

Mr. Norman. About the time that he got past the window where I was, well, it seems as though he was, I mean you know, brushing his hair. Maybe he was looking to the public.

Mr. McCloy. Saluting?

Mr. Norman. Yes.

Mr. Ball. With which arm?

Mr. Norman. I believe it was his right arm, and I can't remember what the exact time was but I know I heard a shot, and then after I heard the shot, well, it seems as though the President, you know, slumped or something, and then another shot and I believe Jarman or someone told me, he said, "I believe someone is shooting at the President," and I think I made a statement "It is someone shooting at the President, and I believe it came from up above us."

Well, I couldn't see at all during the time but I know I heard a third shot fired, and I could also hear something sounded like the shell hulls hitting the floor and the ejecting of the rifle, it sounded as though it was to me.

Mr. Ball. How many shots did you hear?

Mr. Norman. Three.

Mr. Ball. Do you remember whether or not you said anything to the men then as to whether or not you heard anything from above you?

Mr. Norman. Only I think I remember saying that I thought I could hear the shell hulls and the ejection of the rifle. I didn't tell I think I hear anybody moving, you know.

Mr. Ball. But you thought, do you remember you told the men then that you thought you heard the ejection of the rifle?

Mr. Norman. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. And shells on the floor?

Mr. Norman. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Falling?

Mr. Norman. Yes.

Mr. Ball. Did anybody say anything as to where they thought the shots came from?

Mr. Norman. Well, I don't recall of either one of them saying they thought where it came from.

Mr. Ball. But you did?

Mr. Norman. Yes.

Mr. Ball. And you said you thought it came from where?

192 Mr. Norman. Above where we were, above us.

Mr. Ball. Did you see any dust or dirt falling?

Mr. Norman. I didn't see any falling but I saw some in Bonnie Ray Williams' hair.

Mr. Ball. Did anybody say anything about it?

Mr. Norman. I believe Jarman told him that it was in his hair first. Then I, you know, told him it was and I believe Jarman told him not to brush it out his hair but I think he did anyway.

Mr. Ball. After that happened, what did you do?

Mr. Norman. Well, we ran to the farthest window facing the expressway.

Mr. Ball. The farthest window, is that right?

Mr. Norman. Yes.

Mr. Ball. I have here a diagram of this fifth floor.

Mr. McCloy. May I interrupt there.

Mr. Ball. Go right ahead.

Mr. McCloy. You spoke about seeing the President sort of slump over after the first shot?

Mr. Norman. Yes; I believe the first.

Mr. McCloy. Did you see the President hit on any subsequent shots?

Mr. Norman. No; I don't recall seeing that.

Mr. Ball. Here is a diagram of the sixth floor.

Mr. Norman. The sixth floor?

Mr. Ball. Of the fifth floor rather, which is Commission's 487, and this is the southeast corner window. To what window did you and your two friends run?

Mr. Norman. This is the south. This is the window we were in. We came to this last, I believe it is the next to the last or the last window on this end here, right here.

Mr. Ball. And the other day when you were up on the fifth floor with a photographer, you ran to that window, did you?

Mr. Norman. Well, we ran to the window, we thought it was the window we ran to.

Mr. Ball. And you opened that window?

Mr. Norman. Yes.

Mr. Ball. And had your picture taken?

Mr. Norman. Yes.

Mr. Ball. Here is 485. Is that the window as you remembered it that you ran to?

Mr. Norman. I can't say it was that particular window that day but it was between these two windows here.

Mr. Ball. One of the two windows?

Mr. Norman. Yes.

Mr. Ball. This is marked Y here on 487, is that correct?

Mr. Norman. Yes.

Mr. Ball. Why did you run down to that window?

Mr. Norman. Well, it seems as though everyone else was running towards the railroad tracks, and we ran over there. Curious to see why everybody was running that way for. I thought maybe——

Mr. Ball. Did anybody say anything about going up to the sixth floor?

Mr. Norman. I don't remember anyone saying about going up to the sixth floor.

Mr. Ball. Then did you leave that window that you have marked Y on 487?

Mr. Norman. Yes.

Mr. Ball. And you went to what window?

Mr. Norman. To the west window.

Mr. Ball. Look on the diagram and tell me what window you went to, as you remember it?

Mr. Norman. It was between this point here, these two right here.

Mr. Ball. That is marked Z?

Mr. Norman. Yes.

Mr. Ball. Is that correct?

Mr. Norman. Yes.

Mr. Ball. What did you do when you went to that window?

193 Mr. Norman. I don't remember if we raised the window or not but I remember looking out the window that day.

Mr. Ball. Here is a picture 489 taken last Friday when you were with me on that floor?

Mr. Norman. Yes.

Mr. Ball. Do you show in the picture?

Mr. Norman. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Is that the window you looked out of?

Mr. Norman. Yes, sir; I believe that is the one.

Mr. Ball. What did you look at when you looked out that window?

Mr. Norman. We saw the policeman, and I guess they were detectives, they were searching the empty cars over there. I remember seeing some guy on top of them.

Mr. Ball. On top of the cars?

Mr. Norman. Yes. They were going through there.

Mr. Ball. You saw police officers searching cars over on the railroad tracks?

Mr. Norman. Yes.

Mr. Ball. And how long did you stay at that window?

Mr. Norman. I don't remember, but it wasn't very long.

Mr. Ball. Then where did you go?

Mr. Norman. We ran down to the first floor.

Mr. Ball. As you were at the fifth floor, looking west as shown in Exhibit No. 489, were you able to see the stairwell?

Mr. Norman. No.

Mr. Ball. Why?

Mr. Norman. Because there is a row of bins there that prevents you standing in a position that I was in to keep you from seeing it.

Mr. Ball. There is 492. Does that show the row of bins?

Mr. Norman. Yes; the row of bins.

Mr. Ball. They block off the stairwell.

Mr. Norman. Yes.

Mr. Ball. Do you remember that we tried an experiment when you were there by putting you three men in line and then taking a picture to see if we could see any one of you?

Mr. Norman. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. This is a picture 491. That is your picture, isn't it?

Mr. Norman. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Where are you?

Mr. Norman. In the middle.

Mr. Ball. And who is that on the end?

Mr. Norman. Which end? Oh, this is Bonnie Ray Williams.

Mr. Ball. Who is this one?

Mr. Norman. James Jarman.

Mr. Ball. And then a picture, do you remember another picture was taken, 492?

Mr. Norman. Yes, sir; I remember that picture.

Mr. Ball. Can you see anyone in that picture?

Mr. Norman. I see one person.

Mr. Ball. Can you make him out?

Mr. Norman. Yes. I recognize him as James Jarman.

Mr. Ball. Jarman, the one on the end?

Mr. Norman. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Now did you see any police officer come up on that floor?

Mr. Norman. I didn't.

Mr. Ball. You didn't.

Mr. Norman. No, sir.

Mr. Ball. Or did you see Mr. Truly come up?

Mr. Norman. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. Ball. Or did you hear any elevator operator?

Mr. Norman. No; I don't recall.

Mr. Ball. Going up or down?

Mr. Norman. No, sir; I don't recall anyone.

194 Mr. Ball. When you were brought to the first floor or when you came to the first floor how did you go down there?

Mr. Norman. We came down the stairway. I remember we came down the stairway.

Mr. Ball. When you got to the first floor did someone talk to you, police officers?

Mr. Norman. I don't remember a police officer talking to me as soon as we got down there. I don't.

Mr. Ball. Did anyone talk to you later?

Mr. Norman. Yes.

Mr. Ball. Who?

Mr. Norman. I guess they were Secret Service men. But I know they talked to us.

Mr. Ball. Did they take you over to the police station later?

Mr. Norman. No; they didn't carry me to the police station.

Mr. Ball. When did you leave the place?

Mr. Norman. Oh, I would say somewhere around 2 o'clock, somewhere in the vicinity of that.

Mr. Ball. Who did you leave with?

Mr. Norman. Mr. James Jarman. I can't remember who.

Mr. Ball. From the time that you went down on the first door until you left the building to go home did you leave the building at all?

Mr. Norman. No; I didn't.

Mr. Ball. Where did you stay?

Mr. Norman. They kept us on the first floor.

Mr. Ball. You did make a statement later to the Secret Service, didn't you?

Mr. Norman. Yes.

Mr. Ball. I have here a document 493, which is a copy of a statement made by this witness, which I now mark 493.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 493, for identification.)

Mr. Ball. The document that I have here shows the date 4th of December 1963. Do you remember having made a statement to Mr. Carter, Special Agent of the Secret Service, on that day?

Mr. Norman. I can't remember the exact date but I believe I remember Mr. Carter.

Mr. Ball. I want to call your attention to one part of the statement and I will ask you if you told him that:

"Just after the President passed by, I heard a shot and several seconds later I heard two more shots. I knew that the shots had come from directly above me, and I could hear the expended cartridges fall to the floor. I could also hear the bolt action of the rifle. I also saw some dust fall from the ceiling of the fifth floor and I felt sure that whoever had fired the shots was directly above me."

Did you make that statement to the Secret Service man?

Mr. Norman. I don't remember making a statement that I knew the shots came from directly above us. I didn't make that statement. And I don't remember saying I heard several seconds later. I merely told him that I heard three shots because I didn't have any idea what time it was.

Mr. Ball. I see. Did you tell them that you heard the bolt action of the rifle?

Mr. Norman. Yes.

Mr. Ball. And that you heard the expended cartridges fall to the floor?

Mr. Norman. Yes; I heard them making a sound.

Mr. Ball. I would like to offer this into evidence.

Mr. McCloy. It may be admitted.

(The document referred to, heretofore identified as Commission Exhibit No. 493 for identification, was received in evidence.)

Mr. McCloy. You used the expression you heard the ejection. This refers to the bolt action?

Mr. Norman. Yes.

195 Mr. McCloy. Those are the same things?

Mr. Norman. Yes, sir; that is what I mean.

Mr. McCloy. That is what you meant by that?

Mr. Norman. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. What language did you use when you talked to the Secret Service man, do you know? Did you say you heard the ejection or that you heard the bolt action? Which did you use?

Mr. Norman. I probably said the ejection.

Mr. Ball. That is what you think you said?

Mr. Norman. Yes.

Mr. Ball. The same thing you said here?

Mr. Norman. Yes.

Mr. Ball. Do you remember Friday that we conducted an experiment to see whether or not you could hear?

Mr. Norman. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. From the sixth floor?

Mr. Norman. Yes.

Mr. Ball. And where did you put yourself in order to conduct the experiment?

Mr. Norman. In the same window. I may not have been in the same position but I was in the same window.

Mr. Ball. The same window?

Mr. Norman. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. And that window was open?

Mr. Norman. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. And the window, was the window on the sixth floor also open?

Mr. Norman. Yes, sir; they told me it was open. I didn't see it.

Mr. Ball. And a Secret Service man went upstairs with a rifle, didn't he?

Mr. Norman. Yes.

Mr. Ball. What did you hear on the fifth floor?

Mr. Norman. Well, I heard the same sound, the sound similar. I heard three something that he dropped on the floor and then I could hear the rifle or whatever he had up there.

Mr. Ball. You could hear the rifle, the sound of an ejection?

Mr. Norman. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Did you hear the sound of the bolt going back and forth?

Mr. Norman. Yes, sir; I sure did.

Mr. Ball. You could hear it clearly, could you?

Mr. Norman. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Now there has been a new floor put in on the sixth floor, hasn't there?

Mr. Norman. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. The day that you were there on November 22, what was the condition of the ceiling and the floor of the sixth floor?

Mr. Norman. I would say that you could see daylight through there because during the times they put the plywood down you can see the plywood, some portion of the plywood, so I would say you could see a little daylight during that time.

Mr. Ball. When you were there Friday afternoon, did you look up at the ceiling from where you were sitting at the southeast window on the fifth floor?

Mr. Norman. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. What could you see on the ceiling?

Mr. Norman. There was one place I could see the plywood and then another place you could still see a little daylight, I mean peering through the crack.

Mr. Ball. What about the joint where the upper floor or the floor of the sixth and ceiling of the fifth floor comes against the wall. Could you see daylight through there?

Mr. Norman. Against the wall?

Mr. Ball. Yes.

Mr. Norman. Yes; in one place you could see a small amount of daylight.

Mr. Ball. Now the day of the experiment last Friday when you heard the cartridges eject, the bolt action and the cartridges ejecting——

196 Mr. Norman. Yes.

Mr. Ball. Was there any noise outside?

Mr. Norman. Yes; there was.

Mr. Ball. What was it?

Mr. Norman. There was a train and there were trucks and cars.

Mr. Ball. Was there more noise or less noise on the day you conducted the experiment last Friday, March 20, than on November 22, at 12:30?

Mr. Norman. It was more noise last Friday than it was November 22.

Mr. Ball. Was there any train going by on November 22?

Mr. Norman. No, sir.

Mr. Ball. Were there any trucks going by on November 22?

Mr. Norman. No, sir.

Mr. Ball. I have no further questions.

Mr. McCloy. How did you get your job at the Texas School Book Depository?

Mr. Norman. Well, as I remember the time that I told you before I used to live in Salina and washing cars at the Chevrolet company I had a friend that lived in Dallas and he was working down there, and he told me that he thought that I could get a job down there, and that is how I got familiar with the place. I did go by there and Mr. Truly gave me a job.

Mr. McCloy. Were you getting better pay there than you had at your former job?

Mr. Norman. At the Chevrolet company?

Mr. McCloy. Yes.

Mr. Norman. Yes, sir; I was getting better pay there.

Mr. McCloy. Do you have any rough recollection of the amount of time that passed between the time you heard the first shot and when you ran down to the west end of the building and looked out the window there and the time when you left the fifth floor and finally came down to the first floor where the police officers were? Can you give me a general estimate of about how much time that took?

Mr. Norman. To come down from the fifth floor?

Mr. McCloy. Yes. From the time you first heard the shot and saw what was going on in the motorcade and then ran down toward the western end of the building and then as I understand your testimony, you left there and went down to the—did you go down to the fourth floor first or did you go all the way down?

Mr. Norman. I believe we went all the way.

Mr. McCloy. Until you got down to the first floor, how much would you say was the entire length of that time, from the first shot until you got down on the first floor?

Mr. Norman. Oh, I would say somewhere between 10 or 15 minutes, somewhere like that.

Mr. McCloy. I don't think I have any other questions.

Mr. Ball. I have one question.

On the 26th of November, an FBI agent named Kreutzer advises us in a report that he talked to you. Do you remember that?

Mr. Norman. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. You remember?

Mr. Norman. Yes; I remember talking to him. I don't know his name.

Mr. Ball. He reports that you told him that you heard a shot and that you stuck your head from the window and looked upward toward the roof but could see nothing because small particles of dirt were falling from above you. Did you tell him that?

Mr. Norman. I don't recall telling him that.

Mr. Ball. Did you ever put your head out the window?

Mr. Norman. No, sir; I don't remember ever putting my head out the window.

Mr. Ball. And he reports that you stated that two additional shots were fired after you pulled your head back in from the window. Do you remember telling him that?

Mr. Norman. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. Ball. I have no further questions.

197 Mr. McCloy. Have you ever had any difficulty with the law? Have you ever been convicted of a crime?

Mr. Norman. No, sir.

Mr. McCloy. At the time after you heard the shots, did you have any thought that you might run upstairs and see if anybody was up there where the shots were coming from there?

Mr. Norman. No, sir.

Mr. McCloy. Did you feel that it might be dangerous to go upstairs?

Mr. Norman. Yes, sir.

Mr. McCloy. You testified that you had not seen Oswald except this one occasion in the morning. Did you hear any of your friends or coworkers say whether they had seen Oswald on that morning?

Mr. Norman. Not until after——

Mr. McCloy. After the assassination?

Mr. Norman. Yes, sir; that is the only time.

Mr. Belin. Off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

The Chairman. Did you see Brennan down there when you came downstairs? Did you come out the front door?

Mr. Norman. Yes, sir; I came out the front door and I remember seeing Mr. Brennan.

Mr. Belin. About how long after the shooting was that?

Mr. Norman. It wasn't very long because—I can't remember the time but it wasn't too long a period of time, and I remember seeing him because he had on a steel helmet, a little steel helmet.

Representative Ford. Was he standing with another man and they called you over?

Mr. Norman. I don't know if he was exactly standing with another man, but it was several people standing around there, and I remember him talking and I believe I remember him saying that he saw us when we first went up to the fifth floor window, he saw us then. I believe I heard him say that, but otherwise I don't know if he was standing by. There was quite a few people standing around there.

Representative Ford. You were stopped and Mr. Brennan made these comments?

Mr. Norman. Yes, sir; I remember.

Representative Ford. On the front entrance steps?

Mr. Norman. Yes, sir.

Representative Ford. Of the Depository Building?

Mr. Norman. Yes.

The Chairman. Then did you go out of the building, away from the building or come back?

Mr. Norman. No, sir; we had to go back inside.

The Chairman. You had to go back?

Mr. Norman. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. In other words, you went out in front?

Mr. Norman. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. And then came back?

Mr. Norman. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. After you had gone to the first floor?

Mr. Norman. Yes, sir.

Representative Ford. Did law enforcement officers make you go back or did you do it on your own initiative?

Mr. Norman. I remember, I don't know if this is the only time or not, but I remember the law enforcement saying not to let anybody leave from the building and I can't remember if that is the time we went back in the building or before or what.

Mr. Ball. Who did you go out with?

Mr. Norman. I know James Jarman and I went out. I can't remember.

Representative Ford. May I ask did we get into the testimony enough of his background and biography?

198 Mr. Ball. Clear from where he was born, through high school and all his jobs through high school.

He is 26 years old, married, and never been in any trouble in his life. I think that is all.

Mr. McCloy. Thank you, Mr. Norman.

The Chairman. Thank you very much for coming.

Off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

TESTIMONY OF JAMES JARMAN, JR.

Mr. Belin. Chief Justice Warren, this is Mr. Jarman.

The Chairman. How do you do. Glad to see you.

Mr. Belin. Congressman Ford——

Mr. McCloy. Would you hold up your right hand. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give in this case will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. Jarman. I do.

Mr. Ball. The statement has been read to you as to the purpose of your examination before the Commission?

Mr. Jarman. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Hasn't it, Mr. Jarman?

Mr. Jarman. Yes.

Mr. Ball. State your name, please?

Mr. Jarman. James Jarman, Junior.

Mr. Ball. What do they call you, Junior?

Mr. Jarman. Junior.

Mr. Ball. Where do you live?

Mr. Jarman. 4930 Echo.

Mr. Ball. Are you married?

Mr. Jarman. Yes.

Mr. Ball. What is your age?

Mr. Jarman. 34.

Mr. Ball. Where were you born?

Mr. Jarman. Dallas, Tex.

Mr. Ball. Have you lived there all your life?

Mr. Jarman. Yes; I have.

Mr. Ball. You still live there?

Mr. Jarman. Yes.

Mr. Ball. And did you go to school in Dallas?

Mr. Jarman. Yes; I did.

Mr. Ball. How far did you go through school?

Mr. Jarman. To the 10th grade and went to California in 1947 and stayed there for about a year.

Mr. Ball. What did you do in California?

Mr. Jarman. I was living with my aunt at the time.

Mr. Ball. Did you work?

Mr. Jarman. No; I was still in school.

Mr. Ball. What school did you go to?

Mr. Jarman. Alameda High.

Mr. Ball. Then where did you go after you came back, after you left California?

Mr. Jarman. I came back to Dallas.

Mr. Ball. Did you go to school any more?

Mr. Jarman. No, I went into service.

Mr. Ball. What year did you go in the service?

Mr. Jarman. 1948.

Mr. Ball. How long were you in the service?

Mr. Jarman. I was in the service up until 1952.

Mr. Ball. What service?

Mr. Jarman. U.S. Army.

199 Mr. Ball. And did you enlist in 1948?

Mr. Jarman. Yes.

Mr. Ball. Enlisted?

Mr. Jarman. Yes.

Mr. Ball. Did 4 years in the Army?

Mr. Jarman. Yes; I did.

Mr. Ball. Did you receive an honorable discharge from the Army?

Mr. Jarman. Yes.

Mr. Ball. And then what did you do?

Mr. Jarman. I came out and stayed out for about until July of 1953.

Mr. Ball. Then what?

Mr. Jarman. And reenlisted in the service again.

Mr. Ball. How long did you stay in the Army this time?

Mr. Jarman. Until 1956.

Mr. Ball. And were you discharged then?

Mr. Jarman. Yes, I was.

Mr. Ball. Did you get an honorable discharge?

Mr. Jarman. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. And what did you do after that?

Mr. Jarman. Well, I started working at the Texas School Book Depository for about 2 months after.

Mr. Ball. After you got out of the Army?

Mr. Jarman. Yes.

Mr. Ball. You are still there; are you?

Mr. Jarman. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Was there any period of time since 1956 to 1964 that you didn't work there?

Mr. Jarman. Yes.

Mr. Ball. How many times?

Mr. Jarman. I started in 1956. I worked from August up until November, and I was laid off until December the same year and I started back again and I worked up until 1958 I believe, 1958 or 1959, and I quit there and went to Parkland Hospital. From there I went back to the Depository. And I got laid off again and I went to Bakers Hotel, and I think it was in 1961 I went back to the Depository and I have been there ever since.

Mr. Ball. What was your job at the Depository in November of 1963, last fall?

Mr. Jarman. Checker.

Mr. Ball. What does a checker do?

Mr. Jarman. He checks various orders, books and things that go out to different schools.

Mr. Ball. Do the order fillers bring the books down to where you have your——

Mr. Jarman. Right.

Mr. Ball. On a table. You have a table?

Mr. Jarman. I have a table with a scale and I weigh these books up and put the upholstery on them and put them on a little conveyor and the wrappers wrap them or pack them, whichever one it may be.

Mr. Ball. Did you know Lee Oswald?

Mr. Jarman. Only as a coworker.

Mr. Ball. Did you ever talk to him while he was working there?

Mr. Jarman. I have had him to correct orders at various times. That is about all.

Mr. Ball. Did you ever talk to him about politics?

Mr. Jarman. No.

Mr. Ball. Religion?

Mr. Jarman. No.

Mr. Ball. Anything at all?

Mr. Jarman. Not until November the 22d.

Mr. Ball. Not until that day?

Mr. Jarman. Not until that day.

Mr. Ball. Did Oswald have any friends there?

200 Mr. Jarman. Well, not that I know of.

Mr. Ball. Did he have any close friend that he would eat lunch with every day?

Mr. Jarman. No, sir; not that I know of.

Mr. Ball. Did you notice whether Oswald brought his lunch most of the time or bought his lunch most of the time?

Mr. Jarman. Most of the time he brought his lunch.

Mr. Ball. Most of the time he brought his lunch?

Mr. Jarman. Yes.

Mr. Ball. Did you ever see him buy his lunch?

Mr. Jarman. Well, occasionally. I don't think so.

Mr. Ball. I don't understand.

Mr. Jarman. I mean sometimes he would go out of the building. One time I know in particular that he went out, but he didn't buy any lunch.

Mr. Ball. There is a catering service that comes by the building every morning at 10 o'clock, isn't there?

Mr. Jarman. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Did you ever see him buy his lunch from this catering service?

Mr. Jarman. I think once or twice he did.

Mr. Ball. Did you ever see him when he was eating his lunch?

Mr. Jarman. Yes.

Mr. Ball. Where?

Mr. Jarman. Sometimes in the, as we called it, domino room, and again over by the coffee table where they make coffee.

Mr. Ball. Is that the first floor?

Mr. Jarman. That is the first floor.

Mr. Ball. Now on November 22, what time did you get to work?

Mr. Jarman. About 5 minutes after 8.

Mr. Ball. Was Oswald there when you got there?

Mr. Jarman. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Where did you see him the first time?

Mr. Jarman. Well, he was on the first floor filling orders.

Mr. Ball. Did you bring your lunch that day?

Mr. Jarman. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. Ball. What did you do about lunch that day?

Mr. Jarman. I got a sandwich off the carrying truck.

Mr. Ball. About what time of day?

Mr. Jarman. It was about 10 or a little after 10, maybe.

Mr. Ball. Where did you put it, keep it until lunch?

Mr. Jarman. In the domino room.

Mr. Ball. Where in the domino room?

Mr. Jarman. Well, they have two little windows, they have two sets of windows in there and I put it in the window.

Mr. Ball. Did you talk to Oswald that morning?

Mr. Jarman. I did.

Mr. Ball. When?

Mr. Jarman. I had him to correct an order. I don't know exactly what time it was.

Mr. Ball. Oh, approximately. Nine, ten?

Mr. Jarman. It was around, it was between eight and nine, I would say.

Mr. Ball. Between 8 and 9?

Mr. Jarman. Between 5 minutes after 8 and 9.

Mr. Ball. You had him correct an order?

Mr. Jarman. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Did you talk to him again that morning?

Mr. Jarman. Yes, sir. I talked to him again later on that morning.

Mr. Ball. About what time?

Mr. Jarman. It was between 9:30 and 10 o'clock, I believe.

Mr. Ball. Where were you when you talked to him?

Mr. Jarman. In between two rows of bins.

Mr. Ball. On what floor?

Mr. Jarman. On the first floor.

201 Mr. Ball. And what was said by him and by you?

Mr. Jarman. Well, he was standing up in the window and I went to the window also, and he asked me what were the people gathering around on the corner for, and I told him that the President was supposed to pass that morning, and he asked me did I know which way he was coming, and I told him, yes; he probably come down Main and turn on Houston and then back again on Elm.

Then he said, "Oh, I see," and that was all.

Mr. Ball. Did you talk to him again?

Mr. Jarman. No, sir.

Mr. Ball. What time did you quit for lunch?

Mr. Jarman. It was right about 5 minutes to 12.

Mr. Ball. What did you do when you quit for lunch?

Mr. Jarman. Went in the rest room and washed up.

Mr. Ball. Then what did you do?

Mr. Jarman. Went and got my sandwich and went up in the lounge and got me a soda pop.

Mr. Ball. Where is the lounge?

Mr. Jarman. On the second floor.

Mr. Ball. On the second floor?

Mr. Jarman. Yes.

Mr. Ball. Then where did you go after you got your soda pop?

Mr. Jarman. Came back and went down to the window.

Mr. Ball. What window?

Mr. Jarman. Where Oswald and I was talking.

Mr. Ball. Where?

Mr. Jarman. Between those two rows of bins.

Mr. Ball. Where Oswald and you had been talking?

Mr. Jarman. Yes.

Mr. Ball. What did you do there?

Mr. Jarman. I was eating part of my sandwich there, and then I came back out and as I was walking across the floor I ate the rest of it going toward the domino room.

Mr. Ball. You say you ate the rest of it when?

Mr. Jarman. Walking around on the first floor there.

Mr. Ball. Did you sit down at the window when you ate part of your sandwich?

Mr. Jarman. No; I was standing.

Mr. Ball. And did you have the pop in your hand, too?

Mr. Jarman. Yes; I had a sandwich in one hand and pop in the other.

Mr. Ball. You say you wandered around, you mean on the first floor?

Mr. Jarman. On the first floor.

Mr. Ball. Were you with anybody when you were at the window? Did you talk to anybody?

Mr. Jarman. No; I did not.

Mr. Ball. Were you with anybody when you were walking around finishing your sandwich?

Mr. Jarman. No; I wasn't. I was trying to get through so I could get out on the street.

Mr. Ball. Did you see Lee Oswald?

Mr. Jarman. No; I didn't.

Mr. Ball. After his arrest, he stated to a police officer that he had had lunch with you. Did you have lunch with him?

Mr. Jarman. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. Ball. When you finished your sandwich and your bottle of pop, what did you do?

Mr. Jarman. I throwed the paper that I had the sandwich in in the box over close to the telephone and I took the pop bottle and put it in the case over by the Dr. Pepper machine.

Mr. Ball. And then what did you do?

Mr. Jarman. Then I went out in front of the building.

Mr. Ball. With who?

Mr. Jarman. Harold Norman, Bonnie Ray, and Danny Arce and myself.

202 Mr. Ball. You say Bonnie Ray Williams?

Mr. Jarman. Bonnie Ray Williams.

Mr. Ball. Do you remember him going with you?

Mr. Jarman. No; I am sorry. Excuse me, but it was Harold Norman and myself and Daniel Arce.

Mr. Ball. What about Billy Lovelady?

Mr. Jarman. I didn't go out with them. They came out later.

Mr. Ball. Did you see Billy Lovelady out there?

Mr. Jarman. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Where was he?

Mr. Jarman. Standing on the stairway as you go out the front door.

Mr. Ball. Where did you stand?

Mr. Jarman. I was standing over to the right in front of the building going toward the west.

Mr. Ball. Were you on the sidewalk or curb?

Mr. Jarman. On the sidewalk.

Mr. Ball. The sidewalk in front of the Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mr. Jarman. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. How long did you stand there?

Mr. Jarman. Well, until about 12:20, between 12:20 and 12:25.

Mr. Ball. Who do you remember was standing near you that worked with you in the Book Depository?

Mr. Jarman. Harold Norman and Charles Givens and Daniel Arce.

Mr. Ball. What about Mr. Truly?

Mr. Jarman. He wasn't standing close to me.

Mr. Ball. Did you see him?

Mr. Jarman. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Who was he with?

Mr. Jarman. He was with the Vice President of the company.

Mr. Ball. What is his name?

Mr. Jarman. O. V. Campbell.

Mr. Ball. Where were they standing?

Mr. Jarman. They were standing at the corner of the building in front of the mail boxes.

Mr. Ball. You left there, didn't you, and went some place?

Mr. Jarman. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. With whom?

Mr. Jarman. Harold Norman and myself.

Mr. Ball. Where did you go?

Mr. Jarman. We went around to the back of the building up to the fifth floor.

Mr. Ball. You say you went around. You mean you went around the building?

Mr. Jarman. Right.

Mr. Ball. You didn't go through and cross the first floor?

Mr. Jarman. No, sir; there was too many people standing on the stairway there, so we decided to go around.

Mr. Ball. You went in the back door?

Mr. Jarman. Right.

Mr. Ball. That would be the north entrance to the building, wouldn't it?

Mr. Jarman. Right.

Mr. Ball. Did you take an elevator or the stairs?

Mr. Jarman. We took the elevator.

Mr. Ball. Which elevator?

Mr. Jarman. The west side elevator.

Mr. Ball. That is the one you use a punch button on, isn't it?

Mr. Jarman. Right.

Mr. Ball. Where did you go?

Mr. Jarman. To the fifth floor.

Mr. Ball. Why did you go to the fifth floor?

Mr. Jarman. We just decided to go to the fifth floor.

203 Mr. Ball. Was there any reason why you should go to the fifth floor any more than the fourth or the sixth?

Mr. Jarman. No.

Mr. Ball. Did you know who made the suggestion you go to the fifth floor?

Mr. Jarman. Well, I don't know if it was myself or Hank.

Mr. Ball. When you got there was there anybody on the fifth floor?

Mr. Jarman. No, sir.

Mr. Ball. What did you do when you got to the fifth floor?

Mr. Jarman. We got out the elevator and pulled the gate down. That was in case somebody wanted to use it. Then we went to the front of the building, which is on the south side, and raised the windows.

Mr. Ball. Which windows did you raise?

Mr. Jarman. Well, Harold raised the first window to the east side of the building, and I went to the second rear windows and raised, counting the windows, it would be the fourth one.

Mr. Ball. It would be the fourth window?

Mr. Jarman. Yes.

Mr. Ball. Did somebody join you then?

Mr. Jarman. Yes, sir; a few minutes later.

Mr. Ball. Who joined you?

Mr. Jarman. Bonnie Ray Williams.

Mr. Ball. And where did he stand or sit?

Mr. Jarman. He took the window next to Harold Norman.

Mr. Ball. I show you a picture which is 480, a picture of the Texas School Book Depository Building. Can you show me the window before which you were standing and out of which you were looking?

Mr. Jarman. This window here.

Mr. Ball. It is marked W on this picture. Where was Harold Norman, the window out of which Harold Norman was looking?

Mr. Jarman. He was first right here.

Mr. Ball. That is the one marked with a red arrow?

Mr. Jarman. Yes.

Mr. Ball. Where was Bonnie Ray Williams?

Mr. Jarman. Bonnie Ray Williams was in this one.

Mr. Ball. Next to the window of Norman, is that right?

Mr. Jarman. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Was——

Mr. Belin. What exhibit is that?

Mr. Ball. That is 480. This is 482. You recognize those two pictures?

Mr. Jarman. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Who are they?

Mr. Jarman. Harold Norman and Bonnie Ray Williams.

Mr. Ball. Now the other day you went up to the fifth floor of the Texas State School Book Depository with me and a photographer, and had your picture taken, did you not?

Mr. Jarman. Yes.

Mr. Ball. And what did I ask you to do before the picture was taken?

Mr. Jarman. To try to get in the same position that we were the day the assassination was.

Mr. Ball. And did you do that?

Mr. Jarman. Yes, sir. We tried to the best of our knowledge.

Mr. Ball. I have a picture here I would like to have marked as Commission Exhibit 494.

Mr. McCloy. It is so marked.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 494 for identification.)

Mr. Ball. Is that your picture?

Mr. Jarman. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Taken last Friday afternoon, March 20th, is that right?

Mr. Jarman. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Now does it or does it not show your position at about the time, as you were watching the President's motorcade go by?

204 Mr. Jarman. Yes, sir; that is the position I had as it was going by.

Mr. Ball. You are on your knees?

Mr. Jarman. Right, sir.

Mr. Ball. I show this to each member of the Commission. This is a new exhibit. 485, you recognize that picture?

Mr. Jarman. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. What does it show?

Mr. Jarman. It shows that I was on my knees as the motorcade was passing.

Mr. Ball. And shows the other two men?

Mr. Jarman. As the motorcade was passing.

Mr. Ball. It shows their position?

Mr. Jarman. At the time.

Mr. Ball. At the time the motorcade was passing?

Mr. Jarman. Right, sir.

Mr. Ball. This has been introduced into evidence. I don't believe you have seen that, Congressman.

Representative Ford. This is yourself here?

Mr. Jarman. Yes.

Representative Ford. The one closest to an individual looking at the photograph.

Mr. Jarman. Yes.

Mr. Ball. After the motorcade passed, what happened?

Mr. Jarman. After the motorcade turned, going west on Elm, then there was a loud shot, or backfire, as I thought it was then—I thought it was a backfire.

Mr. Ball. You thought it was what?

Mr. Jarman. A backfire or an officer giving a salute to the President. And then at that time I didn't, you know, think too much about it. And then the second shot was fired, and that is when the people started falling on the ground and the motorcade car jumped forward, and then the third shot was fired right behind the second one.

Mr. Ball. Were you still on your knees looking up?

Mr. Jarman. Well, after the third shot was fired, I think I got up and I ran over to Harold Norman and Bonnie Ray Williams, and told them, I said, I told them that it wasn't a backfire or anything, that somebody was shooting at the President.

Mr. Ball. And then did they say anything?

Mr. Jarman. Hank said, Harold Norman, rather, said that he thought the shots had came from above us, and I noticed that Bonnie Ray had a few debris in his head. It was sort of white stuff, or something, and I told him not to brush it out, but he did anyway.

Mr. Ball. He had some white what, like plaster?

Mr. Jarman. Like some come off a brick or plaster or something.

Mr. Ball. Did Norman say anything else that you remember?

Mr. Jarman. He said that he was sure that the shot came from inside the building because he had been used to guns and all that, and he said it didn't sound like it was too far off anyway. And so we ran down to the west side of the building.

Mr. Ball. Did Norman say anything about hearing cartridges or ejection or anything like that, do you remember?

Mr. Jarman. That was after we got down to the west side of the building.

Mr. Ball. After you got down where?

Mr. Jarman. To the west side of the building.

Mr. Ball. Down the west side?

Mr. Jarman. Right.

Mr. Ball. Now you ran down to the west side of the building, did you?

Mr. Jarman. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. And when you were up there you showed me the window to which you ran, didn't you?

Mr. Jarman. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. The picture was taken of you at that place?

Mr. Jarman. Yes, sir.

205 Mr. Ball. When you ran down there was the window open or closed?

Mr. Jarman. It was closed.

Mr. Ball. And who opened it?

Mr. Jarman. I did.

Mr. Ball. And what did you do after you opened the window?

Mr. Jarman. I leaned out and the officers and various people was running across the tracks, toward the tracks over there where they had the passenger trains, and all, boxcars and things.

Mr. Ball. I show you 488. What does that show?

Mr. Jarman. That shows me leaning out the window and Bonnie Ray and Harold Norman was over to the side of me.

Mr. Ball. What window?

Mr. Jarman. The window on the west side of the building.

Mr. Ball. Is that the one to which you ran after you heard the shots?

Mr. Jarman. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. And you looked out that window?

Mr. Jarman. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. How did you happen to run to that window?

Mr. Jarman. Well, I wanted to see what was going on mostly, because that was after the motorcade car had took off, and I thought they had stopped under the underpass, but they hadn't. So they went on around the bend, and after I couldn't see from there I ran to another, the second window.

Mr. Ball. That second one you ran to, you pointed that out to me last Friday, did you?

Mr. Jarman. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. And the picture was taken of that, is that right?

Mr. Jarman. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. And that window is on which side?

Mr. Jarman. On the west side of the building also.

Mr. Ball. I show you 489. Is that a picture of the west window?

Mr. Jarman. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. And what did you see when you looked out that window?

Mr. Jarman. When I looked out that window, I saw the policemen and the secret agents, the FBI men, searching the boxcar yard and the passenger train and things like that.

Mr. Ball. Where were you when you heard Harold Norman say something that he had heard cartridges?

Mr. Jarman. All that took place right here in this corner after we had went to this window.

Mr. Ball. This corner. What corner do you mean?

Mr. Jarman. In the corner of the building right after we had looked out this window.

Mr. Ball. Which corner?

Mr. Jarman. Right here on the west side of the building.

Mr. Ball. On the west side of the building?

Mr. Jarman. Right.

Mr. Ball. And would that be the window that is shown in 488, or the window that is shown in 489?

Mr. Jarman. It was between the two windows.

Mr. Ball. Between the two?

Mr. Jarman. As we was going to this window.

Mr. Ball. To that window?

Mr. Jarman. Yes.

Mr. Ball. What did you hear him say?

Mr. Jarman. He said it was something sounded like cartridges hitting the floor, and he could hear the action of the rifle, I mean the bolt, as it were pulled back, or something like that.

Mr. Ball. Had you heard anything like that?

Mr. Jarman. No, sir; I hadn't.

Mr. Ball. Had you heard any person running upstairs?

Mr. Jarman. No, sir.

Mr. Ball. Or any steps upstairs?

206 Mr. Jarman. No, sir.

Mr. Ball. Any noise at all up there?

Mr. Jarman. None.

Mr. Ball. I have here a diagram which is 487. This is the southeast corner of the building on this diagram. Do you recognize that?

Mr. Jarman. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. This is the Elm Street side?

Mr. Jarman. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Will you point out the window to which you three boys ran when you looked out, you opened the window and looked out towards the——

Mr. Jarman. This one here.

Mr. Ball. The one marked Y on this diagram?

Mr. Jarman. Yes.

Mr. Ball. Is that right?

Mr. Jarman. This one right here.

Mr. Ball. That one marked Y.

Mr. Jarman. Right.

Mr. Ball. Where is the window to which you went afterwards to look out when you saw the police and other agents searching boxcars?

Mr. Jarman. I went to the second window from the south side of the building on the west.

Mr. Ball. Is that the one marked Z?

Mr. Jarman. Yes.

Mr. Ball. At that time could you see the stairwell when you stood there at Z?

Mr. Jarman. No, sir; I couldn't.

Mr. Ball. Why?

Mr. Jarman. Because there is a row of bins there with books in them.

Mr. Ball. They block your view?

Mr. Jarman. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. And did we conduct an experiment there to see how much you could see from Z?

Mr. Jarman. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. I show you a picture, 491. Do you remember standing in line near the stairwell?

Mr. Jarman. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. That is you on the end, isn't it?

Mr. Jarman. Right.

Mr. Ball. On the end, the farthest from the stairwell?

Mr. Jarman. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. And we took a picture, is that right?

Mr. Jarman. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Of that area. Does that show the bins?

Mr. Jarman. That shows the bins.

Mr. Ball. I am now referring to 492.

Mr. Jarman. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Now was there any part of the stairwell that you could see when you were along this west wall?

Mr. Jarman. No, sir.

Mr. Ball. Could you see the elevators?

Mr. Jarman. I imagine if I had looked over, but I didn't.

Mr. Ball. Do you remember any of the elevators coming up or down as you were standing there at the west window?

Mr. Jarman. No, sir.

Mr. Ball. Looking toward the railroad track?

Mr. Jarman. No, sir.

Mr. Ball. Do you remember seeing Mr. Truly?

Mr. Jarman. No, sir.

Mr. Ball. Or did you see a motorcycle officer come up?

Mr. Jarman. No, sir.

Mr. Ball. Or did you hear the elevator go up?

Mr. Jarman. No, sir.

207 Mr. Ball. What did you men do after you looked out the window toward the railroad tracks from the west window?

Mr. Jarman. Well, after Norman had made his statement that he had heard the cartridges hit the floor and this bolt action, I told him we'd better get the hell from up here.

Mr. Ball. Did anybody suggest you go up to the sixth floor?

Mr. Jarman. No, sir.

Mr. Ball. And where did you go then?

Mr. Jarman. Down. We ran to the elevator first, but the elevator had gone down.

Mr. Ball. Where did you go?

Mr. Jarman. Then we ran to the stairway and ran downstairs, and we paused a few minutes on four.

Mr. Ball. Which elevator did you run to?

Mr. Jarman. To the elevator on the west side.

Mr. Ball. On the west. That wasn't there?

Mr. Jarman. No, sir.

Mr. Ball. When you went downstairs, what did you see on the first floor?

Mr. Jarman. When we got downstairs on the first floor, I think the first one I seen was Eddie Piper.

Mr. Ball. Eddie Piper works there, does he?

Mr. Jarman. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. And who else did you see?

Mr. Jarman. And I ran into Roy Edward Lewis, which is also another employee.

Mr. Ball. Did you see anybody else there?

Mr. Jarman. No, sir. I ran, then we ran to the front door.

Mr. Ball. You ran to the front door?

Mr. Jarman. Yes, sir; and out on the street.

Mr. Ball. You and who?

Mr. Jarman. Harold Norman.

Mr. Ball. You and Harold went out there?

Mr. Jarman. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Did you ever see a fellow named Brennan?

Mr. Jarman. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Where did you see him first?

Mr. Jarman. He was talking to a police officer.

Mr. Ball. How was he dressed?

Mr. Jarman. He was dressed in construction clothes.

Mr. Ball. Anything else, any other way to describe him?

Mr. Jarman. Well, he had on a silverlike helmet.

Mr. Ball. Hard-hat?

Mr. Jarman. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Did you stay out there very long?

Mr. Jarman. Just a few minutes.

Mr. Ball. Then where did you go?

Mr. Jarman. We heard him talking to this officer about that he had heard these shots and he had seen the barrel of the gun sticking out the window, and he said that the shots came from inside the building, and I told the officer that I believed that they came from inside the building also, and then he rushed us back inside.

Mr. Ball. The officer did?

Mr. Jarman. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. How did you know this fellow was Brennan?

Mr. Jarman. Well, at that time I didn't know him at all.

Mr. Ball. Have you learned that since?

Mr. Jarman. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Who told you that the man in the hard-hat was Brennan?

Mr. Jarman. Well, they have had him down there at the building a couple of times.

Mr. Ball. Were you taken to the police station?

Mr. Jarman. Yes, sir.

208 Mr. Ball. Did you make a statement?

Mr. Jarman. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. When?

Mr. Jarman. That Saturday morning.

Mr. Ball. The next day?

Mr. Jarman. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. How long did you stay in the building, the Texas School Book Depository Building that afternoon?

Mr. Jarman. I'd say it was somewhere between two and two-thirty when they turned us loose and told us to go home.

Mr. Ball. When you were there did you notice whether any of the employees were missing?

Mr. Jarman. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. When did you notice, and who was missing?

Mr. Jarman. When we started to line up to show our identification, quite a few of us asked where was Lee. That is what we called him, and he wasn't anywhere around. We started asking each other, have you seen Lee Oswald, and they said no.

Mr. Ball. Was there anybody else missing?

Mr. Jarman. Yes.

Mr. Ball. Who.

Mr. Jarman. Charles Douglas Givens, I believe.

Mr. Ball. Charles Givens?

Mr. Jarman. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Anybody else?

Mr. Jarman. I can't recall.

Mr. McCloy. Had Givens been in the Depository that morning?

Mr. Jarman. Yes, sir; he had.

Mr. McCloy. He had been there?

Mr. Jarman. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Did Givens come back later?

Mr. Jarman. He didn't come back to the building until they picked him up.

Mr. Ball. He did come back to the building before you left, did he?

Mr. Jarman. No, sir.

Mr. Ball. He didn't?

Mr. Jarman. No, sir.

Mr. Ball. He was not there when you left?

Mr. Jarman. No, sir.

Mr. Ball. When you were on the fifth floor, did you pay any attention to whether or not there was noise above you, before the shots were fired?

Mr. Jarman. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. Ball. In other words, if there was noise up there—let's put it this way. If there had been any noise up there, you didn't notice it?

Mr. Jarman. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. Ball. Now after the shooting, did you hear any noise from upstairs?

Mr. Jarman. No, sir.

Mr. Ball. Did you listen for any?

Mr. Jarman. No, sir.

Mr. Ball. How long was it before you ran down to the west end, from the time of the shots until you ran down to the west end, about how much time do you think it was?

Mr. Jarman. After the third shot was fired I would say it was about a minute.

Mr. McCloy. You have had military experience, haven't you?

Mr. Jarman. Yes, sir.

Mr. McCloy. And you can recognize rifle shots when you hear them?

Mr. Jarman. Yes, sir.

Mr. McCloy. But you didn't hear, you didn't catch the sound of the bolt moving?

Mr. Jarman. No, sir.

Mr. McCloy. Did you see the President actually hit by the bullets?

Mr. Jarman. No, sir. I couldn't say that I saw him actually hit, but after the second shot, I presumed that he was, because I had my eye on his car from209 the time it came down Houston until the time it started toward the freeway underpass.

Mr. McCloy. You saw him crumple, you saw him fall, did you?

Mr. Jarman. I saw him lean his head.

Representative Ford. You actually saw the car lurch forward, did you?

Mr. Jarman. Yes, sir.

Representative Ford. That is a distinct impression?

Mr. Jarman. Yes.

Representative Ford. And you had followed it as it turned from Main on to Houston and followed it as it turned from Houston on to Elm?

Mr. Jarman. Right, sir.

Representative Ford. Had your eye on the car all the time?

Mr. Jarman. Yes, sir.

Representative Ford. Where did you think the sound of the first shot came from? Do you have a distinct impression of that?

Mr. Jarman. Well, it sounded, I thought at first it had came from below. That is what I thought.

Representative Ford. As you looked out the window and you were looking at the President's car.

Mr. Jarman. Yes, sir.

Representative Ford. Did you have a distinct impression as to whether the sound came from your left or from your right?

Mr. Jarman. I am sure it came from the left.

Representative Ford. But your first reaction, that is was from below.

Mr. Jarman. Yes, sir.

Representative Ford. When the second shot came, do you have any different recollection?

Mr. Jarman. Well, they all sounded just about the same.

Representative Ford. You distinctly recall three shots?

Mr. Jarman. Yes, sir.

Representative Ford. And at what point did you get up from where you were on your knees in the window?

Mr. Jarman. When the motorcar picked up speed.

Representative Ford. Was this after what you thought was the third shot?

Mr. Jarman. The third shot; yes.

Representative Ford. Mr. McCloy said you had been in the army 8 years, two 4-year hitches. Was there any doubt in your mind that this was a gunshot, either one of the three?

Mr. Jarman. Not after the second shot. I didn't have any doubt in my mind then.

Representative Ford. When did you first learn of the President's motorcade route?

Mr. Jarman. That morning.

Representative Ford. Friday morning, November 22d?

Mr. Jarman. Yes, sir.

Representative Ford. How did you find out about it?

Mr. Jarman. The foreman of the employees on the first floor.

Representative Ford. What is his name?

Mr. Jarman. William Shelley was standing up talking to Mrs. Lee.

Representative Ford. To Mrs. Lee?

Mr. Jarman. Miss Lee, or Mrs. Lee, I think, and he was discussing to her about the President coming, asked her was she going to stand out there and see him pass.

Representative Ford. About what time Friday morning was this?

Mr. Jarman. I imagine it would be about—I think it was between 8:30 and 9:00. I am not sure.

Representative Ford. You hadn't read about it in the papers the night before or that morning?

Mr. Jarman. No, sir.

Representative Ford. When did you have this conversation with Lee Oswald, where he asked you—you told him that the motorcade was coming by the School Book Depository Building?

210 Mr. Jarman. It was some time that morning, between 9:30 and 10:30.

Representative Ford. This was after you heard Mr. Shelley and Miss or Mrs. Lee talk?

Mr. Jarman. Discuss it—yes.

Representative Ford. Did Oswald ask you, or did you initiate the conversation and tell Oswald of the route?

Mr. Jarman. He asked me.

Representative Ford. What was his reaction?

Mr. Jarman. After I had told him the route that the President probably would take, he just said, "Oh, I see" and went back to filling orders.

Representative Ford. You testified earlier that you were standing on the steps or in front of the School Depository Building prior to the President's motorcade coming by the building.

Mr. Jarman. No, sir. I was standing on the sidewalk.

Representative Ford. But in front of the building?

Mr. Jarman. In front of the building.

Representative Ford. Then you said you went around the building.

Mr. Jarman. Yes.

Representative Ford. What route did you take? Did you go down Elm or did you go down Houston?

Mr. Jarman. I went to the corner of the building facing Elm, and turned going north on Houston.

Representative Ford. Can you turn around and—here is the main entrance on Elm Street. And you were standing out on the sidewalk more or less where?

Mr. Jarman. Right here.

Representative Ford. In which direction did you go then?

Mr. Jarman. This way.

Representative Ford. You went by the front to the corner of Houston and Elm, and then down Houston towards the loading dock?

Mr. Jarman. Yes, sir.

Representative Ford. And where did you get on the elevator?

Mr. Jarman. We walked around to the back entrance and went through this door here, and this elevator here was up on six, I believe. And we walked around the elevator and took the west elevator up.

Representative Ford. How could you tell this elevator was at six?

Mr. Jarman. Because after we got around to the other side we looked up.

Representative Ford. You could see it was on six?

Mr. Jarman. Yes.

Representative Ford. This was about what time?

Mr. Jarman. That was about 12:25 or 12:28.

Representative Ford. You got off the fifth floor?

Mr. Jarman. Yes, sir.

Representative Ford. As you rode the elevator, you noticed the other one was on the sixth floor?

Mr. Jarman. Right, sir.

Representative Ford. Have you ever been in any trouble with the police or did you ever have any disciplinary troubles in the Army?

Mr. Jarman. No, sir.

Mr. Ball. How was Oswald dressed that morning when you saw him at work? Do you remember that?

Mr. Jarman. I don't exactly recall how he was dressed. I think he had on some dress pants. But I didn't notice the color.

Mr. Ball. What kind of pants?

Mr. Jarman. Some kind of these slacks you wear.

Mr. Ball. What kind of a shirt?

Mr. Jarman. Ivy leagues, I believe.

Mr. Ball. What kind of a shirt, do you know?

Mr. Jarman. He never hardly worked in a shirt. He worked in a T-shirt.

Mr. Ball. Do you remember if he had a T-shirt on that day?

Mr. Jarman. Yes; he had on a T-shirt that morning.

Mr. Ball. I have no further questions.

211 Mr. McCloy. Did you see at any time Oswald that morning with a bundle or package of any kind?

Mr. Jarman. No, sir.

The Chairman. When did you first come to the conclusion that any of the shots came from up above you?

Mr. Jarman. After we had ran down to this last window on the west side of the building, and we was discussing it. And then after I got to thinking about all the debris on Bonnie Ray's head, and I thought about that, also. And so I told Hank, I say, "That shot probably did come from upstairs, up over us," and Hank said, "I know it did, because I could hear the action of the bolt, and I could hear the cartridges drop on the floor."

And I told him there we better get the hell from up here.

The Chairman. Now, tell me, when you went downstairs—when you were downstairs and went out the first time, that is, just before you met Brennan, did anyone stop you as you went out the building?

Mr. Jarman. No, sir.

The Chairman. You could have gone right away if you wanted to, could you?

Mr. Jarman. Yes, sir.

The Chairman. And then you happened to run across Brennan, and had this conversation with him?

Mr. Jarman. No. He ran up to the police officer and was telling him about the man sticking a gun out the window. And I heard him telling the officer that.

And I told him that I thought the shots came from inside, too.

The Chairman. I see.

Are you a married man?

Mr. Jarman. Yes, sir.

The Chairman. Do you have a family?

Mr. Jarman. Yes, sir; three children.

The Chairman. I think that is all.

Thank you very much for coming and helping us out. We appreciate it very much.

Mr. Jarman. We are glad to do it.

Mr. Ball. Mr. Chairman, we would like to recall Mr. Brennan.

TESTIMONY OF HOWARD LESLIE BRENNAN RESUMED

Mr. Belin. Mr. Brennan, you are the same Howard Leslie Brennan who testifled this morning here?

Mr. Brennan. Yes, sir.

Mr. Belin. Do you know a George Murray, of the National Broadcasting Co.?

Mr. Brennan. I do not.

Mr. Belin. Have you ever worked for the Union Terminal Co.——

Mr. McCloy. You are still under oath, you realize.

Mr. Brennan. Yes, sir.

Mr. Belin. Have you ever worked for the Union Terminal Co. in Dallas?

Mr. Brennan. I have not.

Mr. Belin. Did you ever state to anyone that you heard shots from opposite the Texas School Book Depository and saw smoke and paper wadding come out of boxes on a slope below the railroad trestle at the time of the assassination? Did you ever say that or that, in substance, to anyone?

Mr. Brennan. I did not.

Mr. Belin. That is all.

Mr. Brennan. Is there another Howard Brennan?

Mr. Belin. Well, sir; we don't know. We wanted to know whether or not you ever made this statement to anyone.

Mr. Brennan. No, sir.

The Chairman. Thank you very much, Mr. Brennan.

Mr. Brennan. I would like to ask a question off the record.

The Chairman. Off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

212

TESTIMONY OF ROY SANSOM TRULY

Mr. Belin. Next we will call Mr. Truly.

Mr. McCloy. Will you raise your right hand, and stand?

Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give in this case will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. Truly. I do.

Mr. McCloy. I would like to state, Mr. Truly, what the purpose of this hearing is.

This is to hear the testimony of several witnesses, or people close to the event of the assassination of the President, to get as much knowledge as we can of the facts concerning that event, which largely centers around the School Book Depository and the people in it, on the afternoon of November 22d.

Will you state for the record your full name?

Mr. Truly. Roy Sansom Truly.

Mr. Belin. Mr. Truly, where do you live?

Mr. Truly. I live at 4932 Jade Drive, Dallas, Tex.

Mr. Belin. Are you originally from Dallas?

Mr. Truly. No. I have been in Dallas since 1925.

Mr. Belin. Where were you born, sir?

Mr. Truly. Hubbard, Tex.

Mr. Belin. And what was your birth date?

Mr. Truly. August 29, 1907.

Mr. Belin. Mr. Truly, where did you go to school?

Mr. Truly. I finished high school at Hubbard.

Mr. Belin. In Texas?

Mr. Truly. In Texas.

Mr. Belin. And what did you do after you finished high school?

Mr. Truly. Well, I came to Dallas in the fall of that year and I have been there ever since.

Mr. Belin. For whom did you become employed when you came to Dallas?

Mr. Truly. I believe—my father ran a cafe here in Dallas, and I worked with him a short while. And then in the fall of 1925, I went to work for Higginbotham, Bailey, Logan Co.

Mr. Belin. What business is that?

Mr. Truly. That is wholesale drygoods.

Mr. Belin. And how long did you work with them?

Mr. Truly. I believe a little less than a year.

Mr. Belin. And then where did you go?

Mr. Truly. I went to work for National Casket Co.

Mr. Belin. And about how long did you work for them?

Mr. Truly. I couldn't be certain. Several years—maybe 3 or 4 or 5 years.

Mr. Belin. And in what capacity did you work for them?

Mr. Truly. Well, I worked in the cloth room, learning the trade of putting in the drapery and things in the caskets.

Mr. Belin. And from there, where did you go?

Mr. Truly. I worked a short time at the Dallas Coffin Co., several months. It wasn't very long. And I left there and during the depression I worked for several things. I drove a laundry truck off and on for a couple of years.

(At this point, Representative Ford withdrew from the hearing room.)

Mr. Truly. I believe I even worked for the WPA back there in those days.

Mr. Belin. All right.

And after the depression, where did you start working then?

Mr. Truly. I went to work for the Texas School Book Depository in July 1934.

Mr. Belin. And have you been employed by the Texas School Book Depository since that date, since July 1934?

Mr. Truly. That is right.

(At this point, Mr. Dulles entered the hearing room.)

Mr. Belin. In what capacity have you worked for that company?

Mr. Truly. First, when I first went to work for this company, I had charge of213 the miscellaneous order department, which is actually a one-man operation. I filled orders for books other than state-adopted textbooks.

Mr. Belin. And then what?

Mr. Truly. I worked on through that time until the present time.

During the war I worked in the North American plant at Arlington.

Mr. Belin. That is the North American Aviation?

Mr. Truly. North American Aviation plant at Arlington, for around 14 months, at night. But I continued to hold my job.

Well, I would go down to work 2, 3, 4 hours a day. Shortly after that, I took charge of all the shipping.

Well, I have been superintendent of the operation since some time in the late 1944.

Mr. Belin. You have been superintendent of the Texas School Book Depository. And do you have any other positions with the company at this time?

Mr. Truly. I am a director—I am a member of the board of directors of the Texas School Book Depository.

Mr. Belin. Is that a State organization or a private company?

Mr. Truly. It is a private corporation.

Mr. Belin. Mr. Truly, when did you first hear of the name of Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. Truly. I heard the name on or about October 15th.

Mr. Belin. Of what year?

Mr. Truly. Of 1963.

Mr. Belin. And from whom did you hear the name? Could you just relate to the Commission the circumstances, if you would, please?

Mr. Truly. I received a phone call from a lady in Irving who said her name was Mrs. Paine.

Mr. Belin. All right.

What did Mrs. Paine say, and what did you say?

Mr. Truly. She said, "Mr. Truly"—words to this effect—you understand—"Mr. Truly, you don't know who I am but I have a neighbor whose brother works for you. I don't know what his name is. But he tells his sister that you are very busy. And I am just wondering if you can use another man," or words to that effect.

And I told Mrs.—she said, "I have a fine young man living here with his wife and baby, and his wife is expecting a baby—another baby, in a few days, and he needs work desperately."

Now, this is not absolutely—this is as near as I can remember the conversation over the telephone.

And I told Mrs. Paine that—to send him down, and I would talk to him—that I didn't have anything in mind for him of a permanent nature, but if he was suited, we could possibly use him for a brief time.

Mr. Belin. Was there anything else from that conversation that you remember at all, or not?

Mr. Truly. No. I believe that was the first and the last time that I talked to Mrs. Paine.

In fact, I could not remember her name afterwards until I saw her name in print, and then it popped into my mind that this was the lady who called me.

Mr. Belin. All right.

Anything else on—what was this—October 15th—about Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. Truly. Yes, sir; I am sure it was on October 15th.

Mr. Belin. Anything else you can remember about Lee Harvey Oswald on that day?

Mr. Truly. She told me she would tell him to come down and see me.

So he came in, introduced himself to me, and I took him in my office and interviewed him. He seemed to be quiet and well mannered.

I gave him an application to fill out, which he did.

Mr. Belin. Did he fill it out in front of you, or not?

Mr. Truly. Yes; he did. And he told me—I asked him about experience that he had had, or where he had worked, and he said he had just served his term in the Marine Corps and had received an honorable discharge, and he listed some things of an office nature that he had learned to do in the Marines.

214 I questioned him about any past activities. I asked him if he had ever had any trouble with the police, and he said, no. So thinking that he was just out of the Marines, I didn't check any further back. I didn't have anything of a permanent nature in mind for him. He looked like a nice young fellow to me—he was quiet and well mannered. He used the word "sir", you know, which a lot of them don't do at this time.

So I told him if he would come to work on the morning of the 16th, it was the beginning of a new pay period. So he filled out his withholding slip, with the exception of the number of dependents.

He asked me if I would hold that for 3 or 4 days, that he is expecting a baby momentarily.

So some 4 days or so later—I don't remember the exact day—he told me that he had this new baby, and he wanted to add one dependent.

He finished filling it out. And I sent it up to Mr. Campbell who makes out the payroll for the company.

Mr. Belin. Now, on October 15th you saw him fill out the application form for employment in his own writing?

Mr. Truly. Yes.

Mr. Belin. You also saw him fill out the withholding slip, except for the number of exemptions, in his own writing, is that correct?

Mr. Truly. Yes, sir.

Mr. Belin. Any other conversation that you can remember from your meeting on October 15th?

Mr. Truly. Well, he told me that he needed a job. He said he had a wife and child to support. And he also repeated that he was expecting a child in a few days.

And I told Lee Oswald that I had some work, that if he could fit in, of a temporary nature, we could put him on. But I didn't have anything in mind of a permanent job at that time, because I didn't have any openings for a permanent person. And he said he would be glad to have any type of work I would give him, because he did need—and he stressed he really needed a job to support his family.

Mr. Belin. Anything else from that conversation on October 15th?

Mr. Truly. Nothing that I can recall, except that he seemed to be grateful that I was giving him the chance of a little extra work, if you want to call it that.

He left, and I didn't see him any more until the morning of the 16th.

Mr. Belin. What were his hours of work to be?

Mr. Truly. His hours were from 8 in the morning until 4:45 in the afternoon.

His lunch period was from 12 to 12:45.

Mr. Belin. Did you have a time clock there that they punch or not?

Mr. Truly. No, sir.

Mr. Belin. The next morning, do you know whether or not he came to work?

Mr. Truly. He came to work the next morning. I told him what his duties were to be—would be filling book orders. And I told Mr. Shelley, who is on that floor and has charge of the miscellaneous department.

Now, this particular thing as to whether I called a boy or Mr. Shelley did—anyway, we put Lee Oswald with another worker who was experienced in filling orders. This boy showed him the location of the various publishers' stock. He worked with him, it seems to me, like only an hour or two, and then he started filling orders by himself. And from then on he worked alone.

He would occasionally ask the other boys where certain stock items were when he couldn't find them. But he was filling small parcel post and a few freight orders for the various schools—as they would come down from the office.

Mr. Belin. Well, could you describe how his work progressed as he was working with you?

Mr. Truly. Well, he seemed to catch on and learn the location of the stock. We have several thousand titles of books in our warehouse. But he was filling mostly one or two publishers' orders.

Mr. Belin. What publishers were those?

215 Mr. Truly. The main publisher was Scott, Foresman and Co.

Now, they have quite a lot of small orders, all through the year. They are one of our biggest publishers. So it kept him busy filling mostly their orders, plus some of the smaller publishers. Possibly he filled some of Gregg Publishing Co. and others. But when he would run out of Scott, Foresman orders, he would pick up other orders that might have had several publishers' books on the same order.

Incidentally, not only Scott, Foresman orders were billed separately. There would be other publishers' orders on the same invoice.

Mr. Belin. Well, perhaps you might explain to the Commission just what exactly the nature of your business is, and how an employee would go about filling orders.

Mr. Truly. We are agents for a number of publishers. We furnish offices for those who desire them in Texas. And our business is shipping, inventorying, collecting, doing all the bookkeeping work for the various publishers' books.

Now, we have—most of the publishers' stock is lined up alphabetically by titles or by stock numbers or code numbers, whichever determines that.

And the location of the books—each publisher's books are to themselves. They are not mixed in with several other publishers on the various floors.

On the first floor we have bin stock, shelf stock, we fill a lot of small orders from.

And then in the basement the same.

The fifth and the sixth floor, and part of the seventh floor is overflow stock. It is reserve stock.

But the boys have to go to those floors all during the day to pick up stock and bring it to the first floor in order to process and complete the orders for the checker.

Mr. Dulles. What would reserve stock mean?

Mr. Truly. Actually it is not reserve stock—it is not surplus either. It is part of our stock. But we can carry a limited amount only on the first floor where we do our shipping. So they may get an order for a hundred copies of a certain book and there may only be 10 or 15 or 20 on the shelf on the first floor. They will have to go upstairs and get a carton or two. And they replenish the first floor stock from that.

And many of our freight orders are filled entirely from our reserve stock. And they bring them to the first floor. All orders reach the first floor, where they are checked and processed and packed and shipped from that floor.

Mr. Belin. Where, generally, are Scott, Foresman books kept?

Mr. Truly. On the first floor and the sixth floor. We have a large quantity of their books on the sixth floor.

Mr. Belin. And this is the area where Lee Harvey Oswald worked?

Mr. Truly. That is right.

Mr. Belin. That publisher?

Mr. Truly. That publisher. He had occasion to go to the sixth floor quite a number of times every day, each day, after books.

Mr. Belin. Now, when an order would come in, how would it get to the individual employee, so the employee would go out and pick out the books?

Mr. Truly. The orders came into our office and were processed by our girls, priced and billed by the bill clerks, and then were sent down a little chute to the first floor, a little dumbwaiter, regardless of publisher.

The boys would take them off of this dumbwaiter and carry them over on to a little table near the checker stand.

Various ones would sort out the publishers—sort out the orders by publishers.

Scott Foresman could be here, there would be a stock of Gregg and Southwestern over here, we have a number of small publishers, maybe we would group them altogether. And the boys usually know which particular orders they are supposed to fill from, because they know the books, they can tell.

On each order it says, "SF" for Scott, Foresman on each invoice and so forth.

Mr. Belin. Do they just pick up the piece of paper for the order and carry them around with them?

216 Mr. Truly. That is right. Most of them use a clipboard. They may have several orders at a time on the clipboard. That saves them going back to the table continually for one order. These orders amount from anything to $3 or $4 to $300 or $400, on up.

But usually if a boy is filling Scott, Foresman's orders, for instance, and he sees half a dozen over there, he will pick up maybe that many.

But during our busy season, when we have stacks and stacks of orders on the table, they don't try to put them all on a clipboard, they take a few at a time—when they go to the sixth floor after stock, they try to be certain what they need for several orders at one trip.

Mr. Belin. Who else worked on Scott, Foresman other than Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. Truly. Well, I assume that all of our boys, all of our order fillers have worked at some time or other, because when the boys finish up the stocks they are working, the orders they are filling, if there is anything left, regardless of publisher, they go fill it.

But Scott, Foresman was one of our publishers that I would say would be easiest for a new man to learn how to fill.

And we have a lot of those orders.

You can give a new man those orders, once he understands a little about the alphabetical arrangement, the location of the stock, and he can go ahead and fill orders, and you won't have to keep showing him things. They are easier to fill.

Usually the boys that fill a lot of the other orders are the boys that have had more experience overall, they have been there some time, and they will know the general location of all the stock, and it is just easier for an experienced man to fill some other orders.

Mr. Belin. When they fill the orders, they go and get the books, and bring them down to your wrapping and mailing section?

Mr. Truly. That is right. And they are checked to see that they are in correct quantities and titles and called for on the order, or the invoice.

Then they are weighed up on parcel post scales, if they go by parcel post, or they are processed over on the floor if they are big enough for freight.

Mr. Belin. And, as I understand it, they would first look to see if the title would be on the first floor in your bins, and then only if it wasn't on the first floor would they go up to some of the upper floors with your reserve stock, is that correct?

Mr. Truly. That is right.

Mr. Belin. Anything else you can think of with regard to the particular nature of the type of work that Lee Harvey Oswald did when he was working for your company?

Mr. Truly. Nothing—except that we have occasionally—we would check the number of orders that each boy filled per day, to see if he is doing a day's work. And each invoice which is the billing of the order, has a little section for a checker's number. And the order filler's number. Our checker periodically would count at the end of the day the number of orders that each order filler filled that day.

We could tell at that time whether some of them were doing much more work than others.

And we also kept a list of mistakes that he catches a boy making, such as filling the wrong quantity of books, or the wrong title. We didn't do that every day, because it is a top heavy thing, and if we have to keep a check on your boys all the time, it is not worthwhile.

Mr. Belin. What did you find generally—would you classify Lee Harvey Oswald as an average employee—above average, or below average employee?

Mr. Truly. I would say for the nature of the work and the time he was there, the work that he did was a bit above average. I wasn't on that floor constantly. The boy, from all reports to me, and what I have seen kept working and talked little to anybody else. He just kept moving. And he did a good day's work.

Mr. Belin. What was his pay?

Mr. Truly. $1.25 an hour.

217 Mr. Belin. 5-day week?

Mr. Truly. Yes.

Mr. Belin. Did he miss many days of work?

Mr. Truly. We had no record of him missing any days.

Mr. Belin. By the way, was your company open on Armistice Day, November 11th, or not? If you know.

Mr. Truly. We usually are closed on that day.

Now, I just cannot remember whether we were closed that day or not.

Mr. Belin. I hand you what has been marked Commission Exhibit No. 496, which appears to be a photostatic copy of a document, and I ask you to state if you know what that is.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 496 for identification.)

Mr. Truly. This is a copy of the application blank that Oswald filled out. I am not familiar with his handwriting, because he didn't do anything that we have records of. All the work that he ever did was put his number or something.

Mr. Belin. Well, my first question is this: Is this