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Title: Warren Commission (2 of 26): Hearings Vol. II (of 15)

Author: The President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy

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Language: English

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INVESTIGATION OF
THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY

HEARINGS
Before the President's Commission
on the Assassination
of President Kennedy

Pursuant To Executive Order 11130, an Executive order creating a Commission to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of the late President John F. Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of the man charged with the assassination and S.J. Res. 137, 88th Congress, a concurrent resolution conferring upon the Commission the power to administer oaths and affirmations, examine witnesses, receive evidence, and issue subpenas

Volume
II

UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE

WASHINGTON, D.C.


U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE, WASHINGTON: 1964

For sale in complete sets by the Superintendent of Documents, U.S. Government Printing Office Washington, D.C., 20402


PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION
ON THE
ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT KENNEDY

Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman

Biographical information on the Commissioners and the staff can be found in the Commission's Report.

A Mr. Willens also acted as liaison between the Commission and the Department of Justice.


v

Preface

The testimony of the following witnesses is contained in volume II: James Herbert Martin, who acted for a brief period as the business manager of Mrs. Marina Oswald; Mark Lane, a New York attorney; William Robert Greer, who was driving the President's car at the time of the assassination; Roy H. Kellerman, a Secret Service agent who sat to the right of Greer; Clinton J. Hill, a Secret Service agent who was in the car behind the President's car; Rufus Wayne Youngblood, a Secret Service agent who rode in the car with then Vice President Johnson; Robert Hill Jackson, a newspaper photographer who rode in a car at the end of the motorcade; Arnold Louis Rowland, James Richard Worrell, Jr., and Amos Lee Euins, who were present at the assassination scene; Buell Wesley Frazier, who drove Lee Harvey Oswald home on the evening of November 21, and back to work on the morning of November 22; Linnie Mae Randle, Buell Wesley Frazier's sister; Cortlandt Cunningham, a firearms identification expert with the Federal Bureau of Investigation; William Wayne Whaley, a taxicab driver, and Cecil J. McWatters, a busdriver, who testified concerning Oswald's movements following the assassination; Mrs. Katherine Ford, Declan P. Ford, and Peter Paul Gregory, acquaintances of Lee Harvey Oswald and his wife; Comdr. James J. Humes, Comdr. J. Thornton Boswell, and Lt. Col. Pierre A. Finck, who performed the autopsy on the President at Bethesda Naval Hospital; and Michael R. Paine and Ruth Hyde Paine, acquaintances of Lee Harvey Oswald and his wife.


vii

Contents

  Page
Preface v
Testimony of—
James Herber Martin (resumed) 1
Mark Lane 32
Roy H. Kellerman 61
William Robert Greer 112
Clinton J. Hill 132
Rufus Wayne Youngblood 144
Robert Hill Jackson 155
Arnold Louis Rowland 165
James Richard Worrell, Jr 190
Amos Lee Euins 201
Buell Wesley Frazier 210
Linnie Mae Randle 245
Cortlandt Cunningham 251
William Wayne Whaley 253, 292
Cecil J. McWatters 262
Katherine Ford 295
Declan P. Ford 322
Peter Paul Gregory 337
James J. Humes 348
J. Thornton Boswell 376
Pierre A. Finck 377
Michael R. Paine 384
Ruth Hyde Paine 430

COMMISSION EXHIBITS INTRODUCED

Exhibit No.: Page
328 1
329 2
330 2
331 15
332 22
333 29
334 38
335 38
336 38
337 38
338 38
339 38
340 38
341 38
342 38
343 54
344 64
345 64
346 65
347 72
348 72
349 85
350 86
351 92
352 95
353 95
354 155
355 155
356 189
357 189
358 189
359 198
360 198
361 198
362 198
365 210
366 210
367 210
368 257
369 257
370 261
371 257
372 268
373 273
374 274
375viii 274
376 275
377 279
378 282
379 286
380 286
381-A 287
382 292
383-A 292
384 340
385 353
386 353
387 353
388 353
389 353
390 353
391 359
392 362
393 365
394 365
395 365
396 367
397 374
398 374
399 374
400 380
401 445
402 455
403 477
404 479
404-A 479
405 480
406 480
407 483
408 483
408-A 483
409 490
409-A 490
409-B 490
410 494
411 496
412 496
413 496
414 496
415 498
416 498
417 498
418 498
419 500
420 501
421 501
422 502
423 502
424 502

1

Hearings Before the President's Commission
on the
Assassination of President Kennedy

Thursday, February 27, 1964Afternoon Session
TESTIMONY OF JAMES HERBERT MARTIN RESUMED

The President's Commission reconvened at 3 p.m.

Mr. Dulles. Gentlemen, the Commission will come to order.

Are you ready to continue the testimony, Mr. Martin?

Mr. Martin. Yes, sir.

Mr. Dulles. Will you carry forward, Mr. Redlich?

Mr. Redlich. Mr. Martin, I would like to hand you a group of newspaper clippings which have not as yet been introduced in evidence and I would ask you to look through them and to pick out any which you feel create an image of Mrs. Marina Oswald which you feel does not conform to the reality of her personality, as you know it, and ask you in regard to each one to tell us in what respect the facts as reported in each of these clippings do not conform to the real person as you know her.

Mr. Dulles. I assume we can avoid repetition, can't we?

Mr. Redlich. Yes.

Mr. Dulles. Incidents here have been touched on in other papers and we don't need to touch them again.

Mr. Redlich. Yes, Mr. Chairman.

During the intermission we have gone through all of the newspaper clippings and eliminated the duplicate stories and hope to eliminate duplicate facts as we go along.

Mr. Martin. Well, this one is inaccurate that it doesn't have anything to do with her image, so to speak. It says she spent Christmas——

Mr. Redlich. For the sake of the record if we are going to have comment on them I would like to have them introduced as evidence because the record wouldn't state what they are about.

Are you going to make comment?

Mr. Martin. Do you want me to?

Mr. Redlich. If you are going to make comment about it, if you feel there is some inaccuracy here then I would like to introduce that in evidence, since apparently you are.

Mr. Martin. It is inaccurate as far as the date in the article is concerned.

Mr. Redlich. The witness has handed to us a newspaper story which we have marked as Commission Exhibit No. 328.

Mr. Dulles. Could we have the inaccuracy mentioned here?

Mr. Redlich. Yes, the headline of which is "Mrs. Oswald Will Bare Life of Mate" and I request it be admitted in evidence.

Mr. Dulles. Any objection?

Mr. Leech. No.

Mr. Dulles. It will be admitted.

(The document referred to was marked Commission's Exhibit No. 328 for identification and received in evidence.)

Mr. Redlich. I show you Commission Exhibit No. 328 and ask you if there are any inaccuracies in that statement.

Mr. Martin. "Mrs. Oswald and Her Children Now Make Their Home at an2 Undisclosed Hotel" which is inaccurate—"and it was in that motel room, somewhere in the Dallas-Fort Worth area that the youngest Oswald child spent her first Christmas. There was a tree, toys and even a visit from Mrs. Oswald's brother who lives 30 miles to the north in Denton, Tex."

That was the inaccuracy that she spent Christmas not in a motel but in our home.

Mr. Dulles. That is about from 3 o'clock in the afternoon as I recall until 7:30 in the evening.

Mr. Martin. No, sir; that was Thanksgiving.

Mr. Dulles. That was Thanksgiving. Spent the whole day of Christmas in your home?

Mr. Martin. Well, she lived there. She was at our home 24 hours a day.

This one—

Mr. Redlich. The witness has produced before the Commission a newspaper story which we have labeled as Commission Exhibit No. 329, the headline of which reads, "Money Gifts to Tippit's Near $200,000 Mark."

Mr. Chairman, I request that Commission Exhibit No. 329 be admitted in evidence.

Mr. Dulles. Any objection?

Mr. Leech. No.

Mr. Dulles. It shall be admitted.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 329 for identification and received in evidence.)

Mr. Redlich. Mr. Martin, I hand you Exhibit No. 329 and ask you if it is inaccurate in any respect.

Mr. Martin. The article states that Mrs. Shirley Williamson, a Fort Worth housewife, who felt compassion for the widow, Mrs. Oswald, and the two babies said the fund for the Russian-born widow had reached $76,000."

The fund that Mrs. Williamson collected amounted to some $2,600. That was her total. That is the inaccuracy there.

Mr. Dulles. Is she referring to the funds she collected or the whole collections?

Mr. Martin. Her funds. This has come up numerous times. We even called her about it one time. She had given out press releases that she had collected personally, I think, in excess of $8,000, whereas what she was doing was adding what she had collected to what had already been sent to Marina, and saying that she was holding that money.

Mr. Dulles. But even that total is exaggerated, is it not?

Mr. Martin. At that time, yes.

Mr. Dulles. The total collections?

Mr. Martin. At that time, yes.

Mr. Redlich. Mr. Martin, this article also makes reference to the fund on behalf of the wife of Officer Tippit with which, of course, you have no connection.

I would like to ask you, however, whether at the time you extended the offer to Marina Oswald to live in your home you were aware of the fact that there were funds being raised for Officer Tippit's wife.

Mr. Martin. I was undoubtedly aware of it but I don't recall any conscious knowledge of it or thinking of it.

Mr. Redlich. Do you recall whether you were aware at the time that there were any funds coming in on behalf of Mrs. Oswald?

Mr. Martin. No.

Mr. Redlich. You were not aware?

Mr. Martin. Not aware, no.

Mr. Redlich. The witness has offered to, has presented to, the Commission a newspaper story appearing in the Buffalo Evening News, December 7, 1963, headline of which reads, "Oswald's Widow Reported Hoping to be U.S. Citizen."

This story has been identified as Commission Exhibit No. 330 and I ask that it be introduced in evidence.

Mr. Dulles. Any objection?

Mr. Leech. None.

Mr. Dulles. Accepted.

(The newspaper article referred to was marked Commission's Exhibit No. 330 for identification and received in evidence.)

3 Mr. Redlich. Mr. Martin, I show you Commission's Exhibit No. 330 and ask you if it is inaccurate in any respect to the best of your knowledge?

Mr. Martin. In the second paragraph it says, "Mrs. Oswald, 23," which is inaccurate—"Russian-born Mother of Three—"

Mr. Redlich. Will you state the inaccuracy?

Mr. Martin. The age is inaccurate. She is 22, "Russian-born Mother of Three" that is inaccurate. She is the mother of two, "burst into tears when she learned at least $7,700 had been sent to her by sympathetic Americans."

There was no burst of tears.

Mr. Redlich. Will you tell the Commission what the reaction was?

Mr. Martin. I would say of happiness rather than—she was glad that that was there, which is normal.

Mr. Redlich. Do you recall anything she told you?

Mr. Martin. No. This was December 7. No, I have no recollection of anything that she said?

Mr. Dulles. Didn't you testify before, maybe it is with regard to another or similar clipping, that she had some reference to the silly Americans who were giving this money?

Mr. Martin. Well, it was a comment she had made at sometime or another. I don't know whether it was during this particular thing or not. I think it was further on.

Mr. Dulles. On a similar occasion?

Mr. Martin. A little later date, yes.

Mr. Redlich. Mr. Martin, you have commented on the respects in which the newspaper clippings were at variance with the facts about Marina Oswald as you knew them.

Are there any other facts which perhaps were not reflected in these clippings but which you might be aware of in respect to which the public image of Marina Oswald differed from the true person that you knew on the basis of your contact with her?

Mr. Martin. No. Of course, she is not the least bit frugal. She spends money quite freely, which it is her money to spend, but it won't last very long at the rate it is going.

Mr. Redlich. In connection with that did Marina Oswald ever discuss with you the financial difficulties she may have encountered while she was married to Lee Oswald?

Mr. Martin. Yes. She remarked one time that she had always wished for $500 just to do with as she wanted. She also mentioned that the small amount of money that it took them to live upon. She said it ran between $130 and $135 a month.

Representative Ford. Did she complain about this limited amount?

Mr. Martin. No. I asked her how she could live on that little and she said well, all they had was rent and food, and occasionally she would get a dress or get a pair of shoes. She said that she didn't object to it.

Representative Ford. But when more money became available she found ways and means of spending it?

Mr. Martin. Yes. Well, she mentioned one time to me that—I told her she was spending too much money, and she said, "Well, when it is all gone I will go to work." That is——

Mr. Dulles. That is a little Russian, may I say for the record.

Mr. Redlich. Mr. Martin, this Commission has recovered information to the effect that the public announcements which you made concerning the amount of funds which had been collected on Marina Oswald's behalf actually reflected figures that were less than the amount which had actually been collected on her behalf.

Without getting into specific figures at this time, are these reports correct in your opinion?

Mr. Martin. Which report?

Mr. Redlich. The report——

Mr. Martin. Oh, yes, we were obtaining a smaller figure, that is true.

Mr. Redlich. That is true. Did you consult with Marina Oswald on this policy on reporting to the press a lesser figure than had actually been collected?

4 Mr. Martin. Yes.

Mr. Redlich. What was your reason for doing it?

Mr. Martin. To—well, the money she had collected was considerable, and most people in their life don't accumulate that much money in their entire lifetime.

What we were trying to do for her was to build enough of a—enough capital to furnish her from the interest a steady income. And by keeping the figure down figured it would increase.

Mr. Redlich. I don't want to put words in your mouth. Could you be a little more specific about your reason?

Mr. Martin. Well, so people would keep contributing to her cause.

Mr. Redlich. And she was in accord with this policy of keeping the public amount at a low figure so that people would contribute to her cause?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Mr. Redlich. I would like to revert to a point that you made this morning to clear up the record. You said that you left your job at the Six Flags Inn Motel because of your obligations to Marina Oswald. Did you leave the job voluntarily or were you fired?

Mr. Martin. I left voluntarily. I actually left on the 15th of December, and I had a week's vacation coming, they gave me that which paid me to the 1st of January.

Mr. Redlich. When you met Mrs. Oswald in late November and in your conversations with her at that time, did she discuss with you the fact of her husband's trip to Mexico?

Mr. Martin. No.

Mr. Redlich. Are you now——

Mr. Martin. She did at a later date, sometime in January before she went to the Commission.

Mr. Redlich. When did you first learn of Lee Oswald's trip to Mexico?

Mr. Martin. I guess it was from newspaper accounts.

Mr. Redlich. When you read it in the newspapers did you ask Marina about it?

Mr. Martin. No.

Mr. Redlich. What prompted you to discuss with Marina in January the question of her knowledge about it?

Mr. Martin. Let's see—she told me when the FBI was questioning her one day, she told me that they had information that he had attempted suicide, and that particular day she didn't want to see the FBI at all, and she was a little bit unhappy with them and I just asked her what else did she learn.

Mr. Redlich. Who else was present at this conversation?

Mr. Martin. I don't think anybody.

Mr. Redlich. Just you and Mrs. Oswald?

Mr. Dulles. Who was this who had attempted suicide, I didn't catch that?

Mr. Martin. Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. Dulles. At what time?

Mr. Martin. That was in Russia sometime before, I think before he met her.

Mr. Dulles. And she said she had heard this from the FBI or the FBI had asked her about it?

Mr. Martin. The FBI had read, I think, in his manuscript that he had attempted suicide.

Mr. Dulles. And they asked her about it?

Mr. Martin. She didn't know that. Yes. And at that time I asked her if she learned anything else, and she said no, but that they still didn't know that she knew that he had gone to Mexico, and at that time we were talking about the Commission, that general area of time, and I mentioned to be sure to tell the truth to the Commission.

Mr. Redlich. Did you ask her why she had not revealed knowledge of her trip—of her knowledge of Lee Oswald's trip to Mexico?

Mr. Martin. I can't recall exactly whether I did or not.

Mr. Redlich. Did you ask her?

Mr. Martin. I have a recollection but I have no idea what was said.

5 Mr. Redlich. Did you and she discuss the purpose of Lee Oswald's trip to Mexico?

Mr. Martin. No.

Mr. Redlich. Do you say you advised her to tell this Commission about that trip to Mexico?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Mr. Redlich. When you were here and she testified did you inquire of her as to whether in fact she did tell this Commission about the trip to Mexico?

Mr. Martin. I inquired of John Thorne and he said that she had.

Mr. Redlich. But in connection with the Nixon incident, you indicated earlier in your testimony that you had not inquired of her as to whether she had told this Commission about the Nixon incident.

Mr. Martin. Right.

Mr. Redlich. Did you think that the Nixon incident was of less importance than the Mexican trip?

Mr. Martin. No, I didn't quite believe the Nixon incident.

Mr. Redlich. Do you believe it now?

Mr. Martin. I don't know. I don't know if there is any corroboration other than her say so.

Mr. Redlich. It was because you had doubts about the actual existence of the incident that you didn't pursue with her the question as to whether she should tell this Commission about it?

Mr. Martin. Yes. I didn't tell her not to say anything about it. I didn't mention it specifically at all. The only thing I told her to do was to tell the Commission the truth in all cases.

Mr. Redlich. At the conclusion of each day's testimony while she was here before this Commission did you discuss the nature of her testimony with her?

Mr. Martin. No. I asked her how the day went. And she would tell me, "fine," and that was the end of it.

Mr. Redlich. But you did inquire specifically about the Mexico trip?

Mr. Martin. Yes. Because I knew she lied about that to the FBI.

Mr. Redlich. Are there any other incidents you knew she had lied about to the FBI?

Mr. Martin. No.

Mr. Redlich. That is the only one?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Mr. Redlich. Did you and Marina Oswald ever discuss the question of her husband's rifle practice?

Mr. Martin. No. The only time I recall that ever being asked of her was at the press conference here in Washington, and I never specifically asked her at all, whether he practiced.

Mr. Redlich. Did you ever discuss with her the question of Lee Oswald's ownership of a rifle?

Mr. Martin. No.

Mr. Redlich. When you discussed the General Walker incident with her, did you discuss his ownership of a rifle?

Mr. Martin. No. The only thing, I think about the only thing I asked her about that was how he got there and how he got back.

Mr. Redlich. What did she say?

Mr. Martin. She said he walked and took the bus.

Mr. Redlich. And you didn't ask her what weapon he had shot at General Walker with?

Mr. Martin. No. That was in the newspaper, it was a rifle. And there were many things I didn't ask about because I was previously informed through the news or I thought I was anyway.

Mr. Redlich. You specifically, with regard to the rifle, you are telling this Commission that you had no conversations with Marina Oswald concerning her husband's practice with the rifle either in Dallas or in New Orleans.

Mr. Martin. Let's see—I think I did discuss with her one time at the rifle range out in Grand Prairie was it, wherever it was, that the owner had seen Lee Harvey Oswald out there with a rifle, and he drove up in a car.

Mr. Redlich. Who is "they"?

6 Mr. Martin. The owner of the rifle range.

Mr. Redlich. You say they drove up in a car?

Mr. Martin. He drove up in a car.

Mr. Redlich. The owner of the rifle range?

Mr. Martin. No; Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. Redlich. Drove to the rifle range in a car?

Mr. Martin. Yes. And——

Mr. Dulles. Did he drive himself?

Mr. Martin. Well, this is a report from the rifle range owner who said he had seen Lee Harvey Oswald there on numerous occasions practicing, and that he drove up in a car by himself. He always came by himself, and I did ask her if he could drive and she said no, definitely.

Mr. Redlich. Where did you read this report or where did you hear about it?

Mr. Martin. It was right after the start there, in the Dallas papers.

Mr. Redlich. This was something you read. This was not a personal conversation you had with the owner of the rifle range?

Mr. Martin. No, it was a newspaper account.

Mr. Redlich. Were there any other conversations you had with Mrs. Oswald concerning rifle practice?

Mr. Martin. No.

Mr. Redlich. Did you have any conversations with her concerning Lee Oswald's ability as a rifleman?

Mr. Martin. No.

Mr. Redlich. Did Mrs. Oswald ever discuss with you the fears that she claims to have had that Lee Oswald would attempt to kill a public figure as a result specifically of the Walker incident?

Mr. Martin. No, other than when she told me that she told him that if he tried anything similar to the Walker incident she would have him arrested. And she never mentioned to me a particular figure that he would do anything like that. She evidently had it though or she wouldn't have made the threat to him.

Mr. Redlich. Other than the Nixon incident, and the Walker incident, Mrs. Oswald never related to you any other specific incident with regard to the attempt to take the life of anyone?

Mr. Martin. No.

Representative Ford. Did Mrs. Oswald, Marina, ever indicate to you her feeling toward guns; did she ever indicate any apprehension about having one in the house?

Mr. Martin. No.

Representative Ford. Related to rifles, pistols?

Mr. Martin. I have a 22 rifle in the house, for instance. Of course, she may never have seen it. But I don't believe the question ever came up at all.

Representative Ford. She never indicated to you that she had told Lee Harvey Oswald that she was apprehensive about his use of a gun or his having a gun in the household?

Mr. Martin. No.

Mr. Redlich. Mr. Martin, I would like to ask you whether Mrs. Oswald ever discussed with you any aspects of the life of Marina Oswald and Lee Harvey Oswald while they were in Russia.

Mr. Martin. Let's see now—she mentioned one time to both my wife and I that Lee had gone to Moscow, I believe, and an old boy friend called her up and she went out with him while Lee was gone.

Mr. Redlich. Did she indicate to you at that time the purpose of Lee's trip to Moscow?

Mr. Martin. No.

Mr. Redlich. Did she indicate to you whether she had told Lee about her going out with this old boy friend?

Mr. Martin. She said she did tell him.

Mr. Redlich. By the way, would you recall when Lee made this trip to Moscow?

Mr. Martin. No, I don't think she mentioned the date at all. She may have but I don't recall.

7 Mr. Redlich. Did she indicate in connection with this trip of Lee Oswald to Moscow that she herself subsequently went to Moscow while he was there?

Mr. Martin. No. I think she said he was gone one day or one night and came back the next day.

Mr. Redlich. So that on the basis of your recollection, if there was a trip in which Lee Oswald went to Moscow and she joined him there this was a different trip from the one you are talking about?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Mr. Redlich. Is that right?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Mr. Redlich. Just to make sure of this you say to the best of your recollection she said he went there for one day and returned?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Mr. Redlich. Can you think of any other aspects of their life in the Soviet Union that Marina discussed with you.

Mr. Martin. He used to like her aunt. Now, which aunt I don't know. Yes, I do. It is the aunt that is working as a secretary and her husband is on a pension. She has an aunt and an uncle by blood.

Now, the aunt's husband is on a pension, and the uncle's—The uncle is a lieutenant colonel in the Soviet Army.

Mr. Redlich. Now, the aunt and uncle that you say she liked very much, is this the aunt and uncle with whom she was living at the time she met Lee Oswald or is this a different aunt and uncle?

Mr. Martin. That was all very—always confusing to me because she wouldn't call the spouse of the aunt, for instance, her uncle, and I couldn't tell all the time which party she was talking about.

Mr. Dulles. These were both relatives to Marina, therefore, they were not married.

Mr. Martin. Well, no; they were not married to each other.

Mr. Dulles. That is what I mean, yes.

Mr. Martin. There were two couples, and the aunt in one couple and the uncle in the other couple. But she didn't refer to the opposite spouse as an aunt and uncle.

Mr. Redlich. Does the name Berlov refresh your recollection any?

Mr. Martin. Berlov?

Representative Ford. Did Marina ever indicate to you anything about her education, what school she attended?

Mr. Martin. No, just the school of pharmacy, and she compared her grade school or our grade school, which is, I guess similar to our grade school in high school or junior high, anyway.

Representative Ford. She only referred to the pharmacy training?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Representative Ford. As any special training she received?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Representative Ford. But she did discuss that with you?

Mr. Martin. Not at length. Just stated the fact that she had finished pharmacy school.

Representative Ford. But she didn't discuss any other training or schooling of a special nature.

Mr. Martin. No.

Representative Ford. Did she ever discuss any special training that Lee might have had while he was in Russia?

Mr. Martin. No.

Representative Ford. Did she ever discuss Lee's employment while he was in Russia?

Mr. Martin. Only that he was unhappy where he was working.

Representative Ford. Did she tell you where he worked, the kind of work he was doing?

Mr. Martin. I don't know, I have an idea it was in a factory of some kind, whether she told me that or whether it was an assumption, I don't know.

Mr. Redlich. Did she ever discuss their apartment, their living quarters in Minsk?

8 Mr. Martin. Yes, she said she had a one-room apartment, and had a balcony on it, and that as soon as the baby was born they were going to move to a larger one. I questioned her about that because I understand it is quite difficult to get more than a one-room apartment in Russia and she said, well, Lee was an American and he could get things the Russians couldn't get.

Mr. Redlich. Did Mrs. Oswald give you the impression that in general she and Lee Oswald had better treatment than other Russians?

Mr. Martin. Yes, and actually her past life even before she met Lee seemed a little bit strange to me, going to the opera, taking vacations and holidays as she says. I understand it is quite expensive to go to the opera, and she was making, what did she say, 45 rubles a month, and she would take a girl friend with her when she went to the opera.

Now, how much that cost, I don't know.

Mr. Redlich. Did you ever question her about her financial situation in Russia?

Mr. Martin. I asked her how she could afford it and she said she got by. She was living at home or with her aunt and uncle. So I imagine their expenses there weren't high.

Mr. Redlich. Did she mention any extra income which Lee Harvey Oswald may have had apart from his job?

Mr. Martin. No; I asked her about that specifically because I had heard an account that he was supposed to be getting Western Union money orders, and asked her about that. She didn't know what a Western Union money order was, for one thing, so I reworded the question and asked if he was getting money from anyone else other than where he was working, and she said no.

Mr. Redlich. This was true of this life in the Soviet Union?

Mr. Martin. Yes, apparently.

Mr. Redlich. Did Marina ever discuss with you the uncle with whom she lived who was apparently a lieutenant colonel in the Soviet army?

Mr. Martin. No; except she didn't like him.

Mr. Redlich. Did she say why?

Mr. Martin. No. She preferred her aunt, who has the husband on the pension.

Mr. Redlich. Can you search your memory at this point and tell this Commission anything that you have not yet told us about Marina's conversations with you concerning her life in the Soviet Union?

Mr. Martin. Her aunt used to bring food and liquor home after parties had at the government building where she was working. Other than talking about—she pulled one tooth out before she came to the United States. A tooth was either crooked or broken and she pulled the tooth out. That caused the other one to twist. I don't know what that was.

Representative Ford. Did Marina ever indicate to you while she was in the Soviet Union that she drank beer, wine, liquor?

Mr. Martin. Vodka.

Representative Ford. When she came to the United States, you could observe it, did she drink beer, wine, liquor of any kind?

Mr. Martin. She drank, I guess she drank a bottle of beer every day, and occasionally she would drink some vodka.

Representative Ford. But not a heavy drinker?

Mr. Martin. No.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. Redlich. Mr. Martin, have you ever been curious about how Mrs. Oswald was ever able to leave the Soviet Union?

Mr. Martin. Well, I wasn't, until Don Levine brought up the subject. Of course, I have no idea what it entails to get into Russia or out of it as far as that is concerned.

But according to Mr. Levine, it is extremely difficult for people to get out of Russia, especially when they have had the training that Marina has had.

Mr. Redlich. By training you mean what?

Mr. Martin. Pharmacy. He said they spent quite a bit of money on her training, and he doesn't understand how she got out of Russia on such short notice.

Mr. Redlich. Did you ever ask this question of Marina Oswald?

9 Mr. Martin. She said that Lee arranged it, and that is all she would say.

Mr. Redlich. She never discussed any other aspect of her departure from the Soviet Union?

Mr. Martin. No. Let's see, they were in Moscow, she waited a couple of days while he was, how did she put it, collecting money or getting money together to come over to the States. I have forgotten the name of the hotel they stayed in. She even remarked they had pancakes every morning and she didn't like pancakes.

Mr. Redlich. In terms of her official negotiations to leave the Soviet Union, you asked her nothing other than the question that I have already discussed with you?

Mr. Martin. No, she said that Lee arranged everything.

Mr. Redlich. I would like to ask you a few questions now about some of the individuals that Marina and Lee Harvey Oswald knew in Fort Worth and Dallas, and ask you in each case whether Marina Oswald discussed any of these individuals with you.

The first is George Bouhe.

Mr. Martin. I know the name but I don't think Marina has ever mentioned him; Katya Ford has though.

Mr. Redlich. Are you personally acquainted with George Bouhe?

Mr. Martin. No.

Mr. Redlich. Could you tell us what Katya Ford has told you about Mr. Bouhe?

Mr. Martin. It was relating to Marina—I think Katya Ford and Bouhe are friends, and they had been discussing Marina all the time she was in seclusion, and wondering what had happened to her, where she was. Now this was after the news was out where she was.

Mr. Redlich. Are you acquainted with——

Mr. Dulles. Excuse me, by "in seclusion", you mean at the time she was with you in your house?

Mr. Martin. Yes, and the press didn't know where she was.

Mr. Dulles. I see.

Mr. Redlich. Are you acquainted with George De Mohrenschildt or his wife Jean De Mohrenschildt?

Mr. Martin. No.

Mr. Redlich. Have you ever discussed either George or Jean De Mohrenschildt with Marina Oswald?

Mr. Martin. No.

Mr. Redlich. Have you ever discussed George and Jean De Mohrenschildt with anyone else?

Mr. Martin. No.

Mr. Dulles. Did you ever hear the name mentioned before?

Mr. Martin. No. I think I would remember that name.

Mr. Redlich. Are you personally acquainted with Peter Gregory?

Mr. Martin. I met him once, maybe twice, at the Inn. He was interpreting for Marina, for the Secret Service, I believe, before Lee Gopadze got there.

Mr. Redlich. Do you know who he is?

Mr. Martin. I understand he is a geologist, and he also teaches Russian.

Mr. Redlich. Did Marina ever discuss either Peter Gregory or Paul Gregory with you?

Mr. Martin. She mentioned—I don't know which one.

Mr. Redlich. One is the father and one is a son.

Mr. Martin. I think it is the older gentleman that I met. She mentioned that she liked him.

Mr. Redlich. The older gentleman?

Mr. Martin. Yes. And I think she corresponded with him. I know she corresponded with him.

Mr. Redlich. Do you have any knowledge of Mr. Gregory's son?

Mr. Martin. No.

Mr. Redlich. Have you ever met him?

Mr. Martin. Not to my knowledge.

Mr. Redlich. You have had no conversations with anyone else about him?

10 Mr. Martin. No. We were—I think John Thorne and I were talking about at sometime we may need an interpreter, and I mentioned his name in that instance.

Mr. Redlich. That would be the elder Mr. Gregory?

Mr. Martin. Yes. But nothing on Paul Gregory.

Mr. Redlich. Nothing on Paul Gregory?

Mr. Martin. No.

Mr. Redlich. Are you aware of the fact that Paul Gregory is a student at the University of Oklahoma?

Mr. Martin. No.

Mr. Redlich. Did Marina ever discuss with you the fact that she had helped tutor the son of Peter Gregory?

Mr. Martin. No.

Mr. Redlich. Are you familiar with—strike that. Do you have any personal acquaintanceship with Gary Taylor?

Mr. Martin. No.

Mr. Redlich. Have you ever heard the name of Gary Taylor?

Mr. Martin. No.

Mr. Redlich. Marina Oswald has never discussed that name with you?

Mr. Martin. No.

Mr. Redlich. Do you know Mrs. Elena Hall?

Mr. Martin. Elena Hall? No.

Mr. Redlich. Has Marina ever discussed her with you?

Mr. Martin. No.

Mr. Redlich. The name John R. Hall, who is the husband of Mrs. Elena Hall?

Mr. Martin. No, it sounded a little familiar but I can't place anything on it.

Mr. Redlich. Do you know Mrs. Katherine Ford?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Mr. Redlich. Could you tell us how you came to know her?

Mr. Martin. Let's see, she had contacted Marina a couple of times by letter, and——

Representative Ford. While she was staying at your home?

Mr. Martin. Yes—well, she sent the letter to Grand Prairie, the letters, Christmas cards, and I think two letters after that. So I called her and Marina wanted to, expressed a desire to, talk to her. So I called her and Marina talked to her on the phone. I think every time she talked to her she talked nearly an hour.

Representative Ford. In Russian or in English?

Mr. Martin. In Russian.

Mr. Dulles. Was it on the telephone?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Mr. Redlich. Did Marina ever tell you the gist of these conversations?

Mr. Martin. No.

Mr. Redlich. Did Marina ever relate to you whether she had ever lived in Mrs. Ford's home?

Mr. Martin. I believe she had for a very short time.

Mr. Redlich. You mean Marina related this to you?

Mr. Martin. I think Mrs. Ford told me that.

Mr. Redlich. How did you get this knowledge, from Marina or from Mrs. Ford? Did you ever discuss this with Marina?

Mr. Martin. No. I know Marina likes her home, I mean likes the house that they live in.

Mr. Redlich. Did you ever ask Marina how it came about that she was separated from her husband and living at the home of Mrs. Ford?

Mr. Martin. No.

Mr. Redlich. Did any of Marina's other Russian-speaking friends in the Dallas-Fort Worth area write letters to her while she was at your home?

Mr. Martin. Mrs. Paine wrote at least once a week and——

Mr. Dulles. Once a week?

Mr. Martin. Yes. Marina did not answer, didn't answer any of the letters and didn't call her.

Mr. Redlich. Did Mrs. Paine attempt to reach Marina by phone?

11 Mr. Martin. Yes, until I had my telephone number changed and then she couldn't find the phone number so she came over to the house.

Mr. Redlich. What happened when she came to the house?

Mr. Martin. Nothing, I let her in the house and Marina and the children were back in the den and the Secret Service men went back into the den, and I don't believe she knew that she was there.

Mr. Dulles. Was the change in number, did it have anything to do with Marina as objecting to receiving the calls?

Mr. Martin. No. That was strictly because the press pressure.

Mr. Dulles. The presence of the press?

Mr. Redlich. I would like to go back to this incident when Mrs. Paine came to see Marina. You say Marina did not know that Mrs. Paine was there?

Mr. Martin. Yes, she knew it.

Mr. Redlich. She knew that Mrs. Paine was there?

Mr. Martin. Mrs. Paine didn't know that Marina was there.

Mr. Redlich. But Marina knew that Mrs. Paine was there?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Mr. Redlich. Did Marina see Mrs. Paine at that time?

Mr. Martin. No.

Mr. Redlich. Did you talk to Marina at that time?

Mr. Martin. Well, before and after.

Mr. Redlich. At the time Mrs. Paine was there did you personally tell Marina that Mrs. Paine wanted to see her?

Mr. Martin. I told her before Mrs. Paine came in the door that Mrs. Paine was here, and she said she didn't want to see her. She stayed in the den, and Mrs. Paine was in the living room.

Mr. Redlich. Then did you convey this message to Mrs. Paine yourself?

Mr. Martin. No.

Mr. Redlich. Who did?

Mr. Martin. Well, she came with the intention or for the purpose of bringing a package to Marina that she had received in the mail, and I don't believe she knew that Marina was living there. I told her at that time that because of security that Marina wasn't seeing anyone but I don't believe she knew that Marina was at that address until later.

Mr. Redlich. When Mrs. Paine called your home prior to the change of phone, did you speak to Mrs. Paine?

Mr. Martin. No, my wife did.

Mr. Redlich. Do you recall the nature of the conversations between your wife and Mrs. Paine as reported to you?

Mr. Martin. Well, let's see, she called and asked for Marina or asked to get in touch with Marina. My wife gave me the number and I guess I called her back.

Mr. Redlich. You called Mrs. Paine back?

Mr. Martin. A day or two later, yes.

Mr. Redlich. What did you say to her?

Mr. Martin. I told her that under the present circumstances she just didn't want to see anybody, and also the security on her didn't permit her to go out too far. That we could possibly arrange a meeting at some middle point later on.

Mr. Redlich. Was Marina free to see anyone she wanted to see?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Mr. Redlich. And the reason she didn't see Mrs. Paine was because she didn't want to see Mrs. Paine?

Mr. Martin. Yes. I asked her several times to call her, at least call Mrs. Paine and tell her she didn't want to see her, and she just shrugged her shoulders and said she didn't want to talk to her.

Mr. Redlich. Did Marina ever tell you why she didn't want to talk to her?

Mr. Martin. She said something about Mrs. Paine talking too much, and she didn't like Mrs. Paine's children.

Mr. Redlich. Were you aware at the time that Marina had lived with Mrs. Paine?

12 Mr. Martin. Yes.

Mr. Redlich. Were you aware at the time that Mrs. Paine had taken the Oswald family to New Orleans and had——

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Mr. Redlich. Gone to New Orleans and brought them back to Irving, Tex.?

Mr. Martin. Yes, that is why I felt she owed Mrs. Paine something.

Mr. Redlich. What was Marina's attitude toward your comments?

Mr. Martin. She just didn't want to talk to her.

Mr. Redlich. Did you yourself ever meet Mrs. Paine?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Mr. Redlich. Would you describe that meeting?

Mr. Martin. Well, the first time I met her was we went over to the Paine's house to pick up some of Marina's belongings.

Mr. Redlich. Who is "we"?

Mr. Martin. John Thorne and I.

Mr. Redlich. Do you recall about when this was?

Mr. Martin. I guess it was about a week after she had moved in, maybe shorter, maybe sooner than that. There was not much said at all at that meeting. Then when she came out to the house she talked at length, but it was——

Mr. Redlich. There is another occasion when you say she came?

Mr. Martin. When she came to my house.

Mr. Redlich. That was the same occasion that you referred to earlier when she came to pick up a package?

Mr. Martin. To deliver a package.

Mr. Redlich. To deliver a package, I am sorry. Could you relate what happened at that time?

Mr. Martin. I was quite distracted by the children. It was rather a stiff meeting or conversation.

Representative Ford. This was the meeting at Mrs. Paine's house?

Mr. Martin. No, my house.

Representative Ford. Your house?

Mr. Martin. Mrs. Paine brought, I think, a package and some food, cookies, things like that, for Marina, and——

Mr. Dulles. Those are from Mrs. Paine to Marina, but the package was a third——

Mr. Martin. The package came through the mail.

Mr. Dulles. That you understand, but the cookies came from Mrs. Paine.

Mr. Martin. Yes.

I believe she brought some toys for the children. What the toys were, I don't recall. Her children were running back and forth through the living room making quite a bit of noise.

Mr. Dulles. Mrs. Paine's children?

Mr. Martin. Yes. And I wasn't really paying too much attention to what she was saying. I was wanting her to leave. I didn't ask her to leave but I wasn't saying much to foster the conversation. Then she left in, I guess, 15 minutes.

Mr. Redlich. What did Mrs. Paine say to you?

Mr. Martin. Oh, boy——

Mr. Dulles. Was she disturbed, I mean was she annoyed, visibly annoyed, that Marina wouldn't see her. She didn't know Marina was in the house, I realize that.

Mr. Martin. She didn't know Marina was in the house. I am certain she didn't.

Mr. Redlich. You mean her children were running around the house though, weren't they?

Mr. Martin. Her children were running in the living room and dining room.

Mr. Dulles. But not into the den?

Mr. Martin. But not into the den and kitchen.

Representative Ford. Do you have a door on the den so you can close the den off?

13 Mr. Martin. Yes. She talked mostly about generalities and she would like to see Marina to make sure she is well taken care of, and so on. She was concerned about her. And she came back after that time, she came back once more. I wasn't there. My wife answered the door and didn't invite her in.

Mr. Dulles. How long a trip is it from your house to Mrs. Paine's, roughly, a few miles?

Mr. Martin. No, a good 20 miles.

Mr. Dulles. A good 20 miles?

Mr. Martin. Because it is 30 miles out to the Inn, and she lives about 8 or 10 miles toward me from the Inn, so it is about 20 miles.

Mr. Redlich. Your wife did not invite Mrs. Paine into the house at that time?

Mr. Martin. No.

Mr. Redlich. Was this at Marina's urging?

Mr. Martin. Yes. Mrs. Paine was quite upset at that—that is what Wanda said, she looked upset at that time.

Representative Ford. On this occasion, did Mrs. Paine know Marina was in the house?

Mr. Martin. No, I don't believe so.

Mr. Dulles. Did she ask where she was, specifically?

Mr. Martin. No.

Mr. Dulles. She didn't ask?

Mr. Redlich. What was the purpose of her visit?

Mr. Martin. I don't believe—let's see, she may have brought something that day, too. I don't recall whether she did or not. I know right after that, the Civil Liberties Union got into it. Well, Mark Lane, was first.

Mr. Redlich. You say right after that Mark Lane got into it?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Mr. Redlich. Would you elaborate on that?

Mr. Martin. Mark Lane came to Dallas, and contacted John Thorne and I. We met him at the Statler and talked to him at lunch, and he expressed a desire to talk to Marina Oswald so that he could represent her husband, defend her husband in a hearing, and we told him that we would relay that information to her.

So we did, and she said that she didn't want to have any representation. She didn't want any more——

Mr. Redlich. You mean she didn't want any representation for Lee Oswald?

Mr. Martin. Yes, she didn't want any more to do about it.

Representative Ford. Can you recall the date of this visit by Mr. Lane?

Mr. Martin. No.

Representative Ford. Was it in December or January?

Mr. Martin. It was in January, I believe.

Mr. Redlich. And you transmitted Mr. Lane's message to Marina?

Mr. Martin. Yes, and she said that she didn't want any representation for Lee.

Mr. Redlich. Did you tell her this in English?

Mr. Martin. Yes, and explained it to her, and at that time she could understand.

Mr. Dulles. To your knowledge, did Marina ever meet Mr. Lane?

Mr. Martin. Not to my knowledge, no.

Mr. Redlich. And you also related the Ruth Paine, second Ruth Paine, visit to your home to something which you referred to as the American Civil Liberties Union business.

Mr. Martin. It was right after—these incidents happened rather closely. The letter from the Civil Liberties Union—well, first we received a telephone call from the Civil Liberties Union wanting to see Marina Oswald.

Representative Ford. Telephone call from Dallas or New York, or what?

Mr. Martin. From Richardson, the same person who wrote the letter which you have there. Do you have that?

Mr. Redlich. We do have. We are inventorying many of these documents of which the American Civil Liberties letter is one and we will introduce it at an appropriate time.

Mr. Martin. Richardson is a suburb of Dallas.14 This gentleman called, what was his name?

Mr. Leech. I can't remember it.

Mr. Redlich. Would it refresh your recollection if I mentioned the name Olds?

Mr. Martin. Yes, Greg Olds. He called on the phone and wanted to see Marina Oswald, wanted to make sure she was being properly represented, that she knew her rights, and so on and so forth.

John Thorne talked to him, and told him that he represented Marina Oswald, and that he was definitely sure that all her rights were being observed.

Then I think there was another phone call from them still wanting to see Marina Oswald, and I talked to Marina and she said well, she would talk to him. So they arranged a meeting with a third party, I can't remember his name, who was a minister of some kind, and then Marina changed her mind and said no, she didn't want to go at all, she didn't want to talk to any of them. So then they wrote the letter. They wrote a letter to her in Russian and sent one to me in English, one to John Thorne in English, and I believe one to the Secret Service and one to the FBI.

Mr. Leech. Do you want to mention about their press releases at this time?

Mr. Martin. There were a number of press releases at that time also that she was being held incognito and not able to——

Mr. Redlich. You mean incognito or incommunicado?

Mr. Martin. Incommunicado.

Representative Ford. Press releases by whom?

Mr. Martin. The Civil Liberties Union, and so they sent this letter to her and she answered it with a two-page letter in Russian.

Representative Ford. In Russian?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Mr. Redlich. Do you have a copy of that two-page letter?

Mr. Martin. No. She wrote it, put it in an envelope, put a stamp on it and I mailed it. I didn't open it or look in it in any way. And that seemed to be the end of it, but they still persisted they wanted to see her.

Mr. Redlich. And the reason Marina did not see them was entirely her own volition?

Mr. Martin. Her own.

Mr. Dulles. She never talked to you about what was in the letter?

Mr. Martin. No, she said she just told them she didn't want to see them.

Mr. Dulles. In two pages?

Mr. Martin. Yes, sir; This was quoted, a portion of the letter was quoted, in the Worker.

Representative Ford. I suggest, Mr. Chairman, that we get, if possible, a copy of the original of that letter.

Mr. Martin. You probably can get it from Greg Olds.

Mr. Dulles. Would you make a note of that. I think we should do that.

That was dated sometime in the middle of January?

Mr. Martin. I believe so. The letter you have—she wadded the letter up that was written to her in Russian and threw it away, and I got it back out, and asked her to go ahead and write them a letter so it would quiet them. So she said she would and she wrote a letter, I think, that night, so it would be within a couple of days of the date of that letter, the English copy of which you have.

Mr. Redlich. Mr. Chairman, if you would like, we could take a 3- or 4-minute recess and I could get the American Civil Liberties Union letter to Marina Oswald and introduce it at this time for the sake of clarity in the record.

Mr. Dulles. Good. It is a good time for a breather.

(Short recess.)

The Chairman. All right, gentlemen, the Commission will be in order.

You are familiar with, Mr. Dulles, you are familiar with, the hearing up to date. You go right ahead and preside, if you will.

Mr. Dulles. Mr. Redlich will you go right ahead with your questions?

15 Mr. Redlich. I believe Congressman Ford, you said you wanted to ask your questions prior to your leaving.

Representative Ford. Do you wish to have that letter entered as an exhibit at this point before I ask several questions?

Mr. Redlich. The witness has produced before this Commission a letter which I now mark Commission Exhibit No. 331 on the Dallas Civil Liberties Union stationery, addressed to Mr. John Thorne, James Martin, Mr. Sorrels, Secret Service, Mrs. Lee H. Oswald, and the Federal Bureau of Investigation.

I ask that it be introduced in evidence.

Mr. Dulles. Any objection?

Mr. Leech. No.

Mr. Dulles. It will be introduced.

(The letter referred to was marked for identification as Commission Exhibit No. 331 and received in evidence.)

The Chairman. Have you seen it?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Mr. Redlich. Mr. Chief Justice, we have introduced that because just prior to the recess we were discussing it and Congressman Ford indicated he had to leave I believe and I wanted to ask some questions.

The Chairman. Go ahead.

Mr. Dulles. Could I ask one question on this letter for clarification? It is my understanding it is your belief that Mrs. Oswald received a copy of this letter in Russian?

Mr. Martin. Well, she received a letter on this letterhead written in Russian. Now whether it was an exact copy, I don't know.

Mr. Dulles. About the length of this letter as far as you could tell?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Mr. Dulles. At about the same time?

Mr. Martin. Yes, it was the same day.

Mr. Dulles. That was the letter she crumpled up and put in the wastepaper basket?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Mr. Dulles. But you retrieved it from the wastepaper basket, did you not say?

Mr. Martin. Yes, sir, and asked her to answer it.

Mr. Dulles. Where is that copy that you retrieved from the wastepaper basket?

Mr. Martin. I don't know.

Mr. Dulles. Maybe reassigned to the wastepaper basket?

Mr. Martin. It may have been, yes.

Representative Ford. I believe that was the letter that Mr. Redlich indicated he would get a copy from the Dallas Chapter of the American Civil Liberties Union.

Mr. Martin. Her answer is what he wanted to get.

Mr. Redlich. I think Congressman Ford is right. We might be able to get both a copy of the letter and their answer.

Mr. Dulles. Their statement in this letter is the English of the Russian translation which they sent to her. I think it would be adequate, wouldn't it?

Mr. Redlich. Yes.

Mr. Dulles. It seems to me it would be adequate for our purposes.

Mr. Redlich. We will contact the Dallas Division on that.

Representative Ford. Marina testified here, and she has said elsewhere, that based on the facts as she now knows them, she believes that Lee was guilty of the assassination of President Kennedy.

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Representative Ford. Was that her attitude when you first met her?

Mr. Martin. Well, when I first met her, we didn't converse very well at all. There was lack of communication because of the language barrier, and I didn't discuss it with her probably until the latter part of December, although she was speaking fairly good English by the 15th of December.

16 Representative Ford. When you first discussed it with her, what was her attitude?

Mr. Martin. Well, she said she thought he was crazy.

Representative Ford. But did she indicate when you first discussed the question of guilt or not being guilty, what was her attitude?

Mr. Martin. She thought he was guilty.

Representative Ford. The first time you discussed the matter?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Representative Ford. Did she indicate why?

Mr. Martin. No. I asked her why, and she said it was just a feeling.

Representative Ford. At that point had she——

Mr. Martin. A woman's feeling.

Representative Ford. At that point had she been given or shown the evidence that had been accumulated by various agencies of the Federal Government?

Mr. Martin. I don't know. I assume she had through the FBI. The FBI were showing her pictures and numerous things. I was not in on any of the questioning at all.

Mr. Dulles. Had she read the papers or had them read to her as far as you know at that period?

Mr. Martin. Some of them, yes.

Mr. Dulles. Newspapers, I mean.

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Representative Ford. From that first conversation you had with her about this matter, the guilt of Lee Harvey Oswald, she has never changed her mind?

Mr. Martin. No, and I have never heard her say anything other than he was guilty.

Representative Ford. Did you ever discuss with Marina the conversation she had with Lee Harvey Oswald at the Dallas police station the day he was apprehended or the day following. Or at any time prior to his death?

Mr. Martin. The only time she said anything about it was that he told her not to worry and to make sure and get the—get June a pair of shoes.

Representative Ford. She told you that is what he said to her?

Mr. Martin. That is what he said, yes.

Representative Ford. There was nothing extraordinary that she told you about the conversation?

Mr. Martin. No, sir.

Representative Ford. Other than what you have indicated?

Mr. Martin. Yes. He said not to worry. Everything would be all right.

Representative Ford. Did you ever ask her about this conversation that she had with Lee Harvey Oswald while he was at the Dallas police station?

Mr. Martin. No.

Representative Ford. As her manager, as the manager of Marina, did you have anything to do with the change of her appearance? Many people have said to me the first picture they saw of her and the subsequent pictures they saw of her she was wearing different kind of clothes. She had a different hair-do, and so forth. Did you have anything to do with that?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Representative Ford. What was the purpose of that?

Mr. Martin. Just to change her general appearance so she wouldn't be recognized when she went out.

Representative Ford. Did she agree to this, was she willing to do it?

Mr. Martin. Yes. She didn't like her haircut particularly.

Representative Ford. She liked the previous way it was?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Representative Ford. How about the change in clothes, the type that she wore?

Mr. Martin. Well, of course, that was for the better.

Representative Ford. Did she like it?

Mr. Martin. She liked the clothes, yes.

Representative Ford. That is all.

Mr. Martin. She tried makeup but that didn't work, because she couldn't stand makeup.

Mr. Redlich. We previously asked you, Mr. Martin, about various people17 that Marina Oswald knew in the Dallas-Fort Worth area and you have indicated the extent to which you knew them personally and the extent to which they had contacted Marina Oswald during the time she was in your home.

Are there any other friends of Marina Oswald's rather than those I have asked you about that you—who attempted to contact her while she was living at your home?

Mr. Martin. Ilya, I believe it is Mamatav or Mamantov—he is of the Dallas Police Department and he has asked of her how she is.

Mr. Redlich. Has he ever seen her, to the best of your knowledge other than in an official capacity?

(At this point, Congressman Ford left the hearing room.)

Mr. Martin. Well, one time when we went to Sears, Sears Roebuck in Dallas, and walked into the store he was walking and practically ran into her, and they said hello and passed the time of day and he left.

Mr. Redlich. There were no other friends of hers that you know about who attempted to see her or call her while she was living at your home?

Other than those we have already discussed on the record? If I mentioned the name of Mr. or Mrs. Teofil Meller—the first name is Teofil, the last name is Meller.

Mr. Martin. Well, there was someone that called the office one day and had a rather odd name, was that Meller, and said that Marina wanted to talk to her, and we took it just for a crank call. She wouldn't leave the number or anything like that. I am not sure whether that was Meller.

(Discussion off the record.)

(At this point, Senator Cooper entered the hearing room.)

Mr. Martin. There was no telephone number involved.

Mr. Redlich. You have discussed at length the attempt of Ruth Paine to see Mrs. Oswald. Did Mike Paine ever attempt to see Mrs. Oswald while she was living at your home?

Mr. Martin. No.

Mr. Redlich. Have you ever talked to Michael Paine?

Mr. Martin. No. When we went over to get the clothes, for instance, he stood back—I don't believe he said anything at all. It was a very odd situation. He was helping us move things but he didn't say anything.

Mr. Redlich. Did Marina ever discuss Michael Paine with you?

Mr. Martin. No.

Mr. Redlich. Only Ruth Paine but not Michael Paine?

Mr. Martin. Yes. She said they were separated.

Mr. Redlich. Mr. Martin, did Marina ever discuss with you her husband's desire to go to Cuba?

Mr. Martin. She said that he had wanted to go to Cuba because he wanted—because he wasn't happy in Russia and he wasn't happy in the United States and then she said he wouldn't be happy in Cuba either.

Mr. Redlich. Did she ever discuss with you a plan to hi-jack a plane?

Mr. Martin. No.

Mr. Redlich. Did she ever indicate what steps he was taking to get to Cuba?

Mr. Martin. No. Not at all.

Mr. Redlich. Do you have any knowledge at all of any plans he was making to get to and live in Cuba?

Mr. Martin. No.

Mr. Redlich. Mr. Ford has asked you about the conversations which Marina had with Lee Oswald at the Dallas Police Station on November 23 and you have replied. I would like to ask you about any—your knowledge about any conversation which Robert Oswald had with Lee Oswald while he was in the custody of the Dallas Police prior to his death?

Mr. Martin. I have no knowledge at all of that.

Mr. Redlich. You have never had any conversations with Robert Oswald concerning his conversations with Lee Oswald.

Mr. Martin. No.

Mr. Redlich. Have you ever talked to Mrs. Marguerite Oswald concerning any conversations which she had with her son while he was in the custody of the Dallas police?

18 Mr. Martin. No.

Mr. Redlich. Have you had any conversations at all with Mrs. Marguerite Oswald concerning the facts surrounding the assassination of President Kennedy?

Mr. Martin. No, I don't think any direct conversation, I mean between she and I. I was present at times out there at the Inn when she was talking to this person or that person. But I don't believe I have had any direct conversation with her at all.

Mr. Redlich. Did Mrs. Marguerite Oswald ever discuss with you an incident concerning a photograph which was supposed to have been shown to her by agents of the FBI on November 23, 1963.

Mr. Martin. No, I have heard that through news media but that is the only place I heard it.

Mr. Redlich. You have no direct knowledge of that incident yourself. Did Marina Oswald ever discuss that incident with you?

Mr. Martin. No.

Mr. Redlich. Did Marina Oswald ever discuss with you her mother-in-law's allegations that Lee Oswald was acting as an agent of the United States Government?

Mr. Martin. No. She mentioned only one incident where the FBI came to their house when they were in Oak Cliff, and they took him down to the car, I believe he was about ready to sit down to dinner when they arrived, and they took him down to the car and talked to him, and Marina was upset because dinner was spoiling, and I think that is the only reference she has made to anything like that.

Mr. Redlich. She has never discussed with you the specific claims of Marguerite Oswald in that respect?

Mr. Martin. No.

Mr. Redlich. In the course of your conversations with Marina Oswald or in the course of the preparation of any stories or releases on Mrs. Oswald's behalf have you ever discussed with Mrs. Oswald the events of November 21 and the morning of November 22?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Mr. Redlich. Could you relate those conversations to us?

Mr. Martin. He came home Thursday night, which was unusual.

Mr. Redlich. Just so the record is clear, I hope you are relating to us now what Marina Oswald has related to you and not what you have read in any publication.

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Mr. Redlich. All right.

Mr. Martin. And, let's see, this was sometime in December that she was telling me this—no, I remember when it was, when she was moving from the Inn to my home.

Mr. Redlich. By the Inn you mean——

Mr. Martin. The Inn of the Six Flags. She was in the back seat and Leon Gopadze was in the front seat talking with her, and she told him that he had come home Thursday night and that——

Mr. Dulles. In Russian?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Mr. Dulles. This was a conversation in Russian?

Mr. Martin. Yes. Lee translated it for me, Gopadze translated it.

Mr. Dulles. Afterwards or as it took place.

Mr. Martin. As it took place, well, it was immediately afterwards, and she made a comment that he had left his wedding band on the dresser, I think, and she got up the next morning she found his wedding band on the dresser, which was strange.

Now, that is the only thing that relates to that period that I have heard her say. Now, I didn't actually hear her say that.

Mr. Redlich. You have had no other conversations with her with regard to the period of November 21 and the morning of November 22?

Mr. Martin. No.

19 Mr. Redlich. Do you have any knowledge of the story which Marina Oswald prepared in Russian and which she has sent to this Commission?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Mr. Redlich. Could you state the extent of your knowledge?

Mr. Martin. I knew it was written, and written by her, and that is about the extent of it.

Mr. Redlich. Was it ever translated for you?

Mr. Martin. Well, we have part of it translated, a portion of it.

Mr. Redlich. Are there any parts of that story which you now believe to be inaccurate?

Mr. Martin. No, I don't have the whole thing translated, but I think everything that is translated, I have no reason to doubt.

Mr. Redlich. Did you assist Marina Oswald in the preparation for her television appearance in January on CBS television?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Mr. Redlich. Are there any portions of that interview which you now believe to be inaccurate in any respect?

Mr. Martin. No. We set a format for CBS to use, specific questions, and Marina was not prompted as to the answers to give. Those were impromptu. But we went over the ones with her off the camera, and asked her the questions so that she would understand them, and then she answered them, and the second time she did it on camera.

Mr. Redlich. To the best of your knowledge and recollection those answers were accurate?

Mr. Martin. Yes. I can't remember them. But none of them struck me as being——

Mr. Redlich. Apart from the newspaper clippings which we went through this morning and afternoon, are you familiar with any other narrative prepared by or for Marina Oswald?

Mr. Martin. Prepared by or for?

Mr. Redlich. Yes.

Mr. Martin. You mean other than newspaper articles?

Mr. Redlich. Other than the newspaper articles which we discussed this morning and this afternoon.

Mr. Martin. Life magazine.

Mr. Redlich. Did you have anything to do with the recent story in Life magazine?

Mr. Martin. No, we had nothing on that other than the picture. Time magazine, she was interviewed for Time magazine.

Mr. Redlich. When was that?

Mr. Martin. Saturday—Friday—she was here in Washington.

Mr. Redlich. If I may refresh your recollection, she completed her testimony before this Commission at approximately 5:30 on Thursday, February 6.

Mr. Martin. Well, I believe it was Friday. We held a press conference on Friday afternoon, and I think it was Friday night then.

Mr. Redlich. It would be sometime after the completion of her testimony is that correct?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Mr. Redlich. Were you with her during the course of that interview?

Mr. Martin. It must have been Thursday night. It was Thursday night because Secret Service was still with her.

Mr. Redlich. You believe this interview took place on Thursday night?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Mr. Redlich. That would be February 6?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Mr. Redlich. Were you with her during the course of this interview?

Mr. Martin. Part of the time. I left John Thorne and Marina and the Time reporter at the table. June was restless, and I was walking her around the restaurant.

Mr. Redlich. Have you read the interview?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

20 Mr. Redlich. Are there any portions of it which you now believe to be inaccurate, to the best of your recollection?

Mr. Martin. I don't think so. I would have to re-read it to make it definite, make a definite statement on it.

Mr. Redlich. On the basis of conversations which you had during the course of the testimony of Marina Oswald before this Commission and on the basis of conversations which you have had subsequent to that time, do you have any opinion concerning the truthfulness of the testimony which she presented before this Commission?

Mr. Martin. No. I think primarily she is truthful, and I think that under oath she would tell the truth.

Mr. Redlich. Are you still Mrs. Oswald's business representative?

Mr. Martin. According to the contract, yes. According to my contract with her.

Mr. Redlich. Have you received any communication from her which raises questions as to whether you are still her business representative?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

The Chairman. Are we really concerned with that?

Mr. Redlich. Mr. Chairman, I intend to ask the witness why he was discharged in terms of whether it had anything to do with any business negotiations or anything to do with the testimony of Mrs. Oswald before this Commission.

The Chairman. You can ask him if it has anything to do with her testimony. We are not interested in her business affairs.

Mr. Redlich. I merely wanted to establish the fact of——

The Chairman. This thing can go on interminably with all this minutia and things that don't bear on what we are here to find out, whatever his business relations are with Mrs. Oswald, it seems to me is his business and not ours.

Mr. Redlich. Did Mrs. Oswald's attempt to terminate the relationship with you relate in any way to her testimony before this Commission?

Mr. Martin. No. There was no reason given.

Mr. Redlich. Did it relate in any way, in your opinion, to any information which you may have given to anyone else with regard to your knowledge of the facts concerning the assassination of President Kennedy.

Mr. Martin. No.

Mr. Redlich. Do you know Jack Ruby?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Mr. Redlich. Would you tell us about your association with him?

Mr. Martin. Well, it is a very minor association. I had been working in the Statler Hotel in Dallas as assistant manager for maybe six months before I met him, and met him through some of the other people in the hotel.

Mr. Dulles. What year was this?

Mr. Martin. About 1955.

Mr. Dulles. I just want to get the general area.

Mr. Martin. 1955 or 1956. And as a club manager, I was club manager in Dallas also, and didn't associate with him at all, even on a bilateral communication through the clubs. But it was just a nodding acquaintance, you might say. I knew him by his first name. He knew me by my first name and we spoke when we saw each other and I think I have been in his place twice.

Mr. Redlich. Do you recall the approximate dates of those visits?

Mr. Martin. Let's see, once in 1962. I had some gentlemen from New Orleans with me. They were visiting Dallas on business at the Inn of the Six Flags, and they wanted to see the Carousel.

Mr. Dulles. That is what you mean by his place?

Mr. Martin. Yes. So I called Jack Ruby and asked if it would be all right if I brought them down. We stayed approximately an hour and a half.

The other time was during the daytime, let's see, as it was then, I had—I was walking in that area and just stopped in to say hello. The club was closed at that time, not closed for business but it was before opening hours.

Mr. Redlich. Those are the only times you have been in Jack Ruby's business establishment?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

21 Mr. Redlich. Do you consider yourself a friend of his?

Mr. Martin. No. An acquaintance.

Mr. Redlich. Have you gone out socially?

Mr. Martin. No. He came out to the Inn one time with some little gimmick. It is called a Detwist Board. It is quite a piece of plywood about like this with a round plate on the bottom of it, seated in ball bearings and you are supposed to stand on this thing to twist, and came out to ask me to see who to ask at the park to merchandise it, the Six Flags over Texas Amusement Park, and I told him. Now, whether he went over there or not, I don't know.

Mr. Redlich. I understand that you have had a conversation with an aid of General Walker concerning the General Walker incident.

Would you tell the Commission about that?

Mr. Martin. They contacted us——

Mr. Redlich. Who is "they"?

Mr. Martin. General Walker's aide, Mr. Moore or Morse, a tall thin gentleman, about 55 or 60, and wanted actually an interview with Marina which we didn't think was necessary.

They came out to John Thorne's office and we sat and talked. They were of the opinion—what they were trying to do was find out who else was involved—this was right after the announcement was made in the paper about Lee Oswald shooting at Walker. They were trying to find out who else was involved because General Walker is still in fear of his life.

Mr. Dulles. This was some time before the 22d.

Mr. Martin. No, it was after.

Mr. Dulles. After November 22?

Mr. Martin. Yes, sir. This was after the announcement was made in the paper that——

Mr. Dulles. Oh, yes.

Mr. Martin. That Lee Oswald had attacked him.

Mr. Dulles. The actual attack was in April. This was after the newspaper announcement.

Mr. Martin. Yes.

The Chairman. After the newspaper announcements that Lee had tried to kill him which was after the assassination?

Mr. Martin. That is correct.

Mr. Dulles. Yes.

Mr. Martin. And they just wanted verification actually that or to try to get verification as to how many people were involved, and we told them that there was just one person involved.

Mr. Redlich. At the time did you ask Marina about this?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Mr. Redlich. And this is what she told you?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Mr. Dulles. The persons involved in the Walker incident?

Mr. Martin. Yes. She said that Lee did it alone without any help. There was no one with him.

Mr. Redlich. Mr. Martin, I have at this time no further questions other than those which may be suggested by a perusal of the records which you have forwarded to this Commission.

As we indicated in the brief recess earlier, Mr. Dulles is able to be here at 9 o'clock this evening, and I would envisage then a very brief session at which time your testimony would be completed.

Mr. Martin. All right.

Mr. Redlich. Are there any questions that anyone would like to ask of Mr. Martin at this time?

The Chairman. Would you like to ask your client any questions?

Mr. Leech. No. I am not going to make that mistake.

(Laughter.)

The Chairman. All right.

Mr. Dulles. I have no questions. I will reserve them for tonight. I don't think I have any further questions.

The Chairman. Mr. Rhyne, do you have any questions you would like to ask.22 Mr. Rankin, are you through for the day?

Mr. Rankin. Until 9 o'clock.

The Chairman. Well then, gentlemen, we will adjourn until 9 o'clock.

(Whereupon, at 5:15 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)


Evening Session
TESTIMONY OF JAMES HERBERT MARTIN RESUMED

The President's Commission reconvened at 9:20 p.m.

Mr. Dulles. The Committee will come to order.

Will you continue with the testimony?

Mr. Redlich. Thank you, Mr. Dulles.

Mr. Martin, at our last session I asked you whether you knew Jack Ruby, and you replied that you did. You indicated the brief contact that you have had with him and the two times, I believe, that you have been to his business establishment?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Mr. Redlich. Apart from your own personal contact with Jack Ruby, do you have any other information about him and his activities which you would like to present before this Commission?

Mr. Martin. No, nothing that I definitely know about him. It is just he is a city character. He is very friendly to everyone.

Mr. Redlich. Please understand I am not asking you for rumors or that type of thing.

Mr. Martin. No, I know. Well, just what I know of him, he seems very friendly to everyone, and he is always around. You are liable to see him anywhere.

Mr. Redlich. Has he ever been to the motel that you have?

Mr. Martin. Yes, I mentioned that.

Mr. Redlich. Oh, yes.

Mr. Martin. He brought that twist board out there one time.

Mr. Redlich. Never been there as a guest?

Mr. Martin. No.

Mr. Redlich. I hand you a copy of an invoice for a Revere recorder and a 1,200-foot reel of recording tape, and ask you if you have ever seen this?

Mr. Martin. Yes. That is a tape recorder that I rented and recorded the——

Mr. Redlich. I will ask you about it shortly. I would just like to know if you are familiar with it.

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Mr. Redlich. Mr. Chairman, I am marking this as Commission Exhibit No. 332, and ask that it be admitted in evidence.

Mr. Dulles. Any objection?

Mr. Leech. No, sir.

Mr. Dulles. It may be admitted.

(The tape recorder and tape invoice referred to were marked Commission's Exhibit No. 332 for identification and received in evidence.)

Mr. Redlich. Mr. Martin, I hand you Commission Exhibit No. 332, and ask you to tell the Commission the conditions under which this invoice arose?

Mr. Martin. We had Marina's manuscript interpreted by Ilya Mamantov, and this was part of it. He was only able to interpret about half of it.

Mr. Redlich. He interpreted it and put it on tape?

Mr. Martin. And we recorded that on tape as he interpreted it.

Mr. Dulles. How do you mean interpreted?

Mr. Martin. He read it in English?

Mr. Dulles. Oh, I see, translated it.

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Mr. Dulles. From Russian into English?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

23 Mr. Redlich. When I asked you this afternoon about your knowledge as to the accuracy of that story, I take it your reply was based upon this translation?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Mr. Redlich. And this only encompasses about half of the entire story, is that right?

Mr. Martin. It is more than half, it is about 15 pages, I guess.

Mr. Redlich. Did she consult with you at all in the preparation of that story?

Mr. Martin. No.

Mr. Redlich. And there is nothing on this tape other than the English translation of that Russian story?

Mr. Martin. That is true.

Mr. Dulles. Do we have that translation as well as the copy of the original?

Mr. Redlich. Yes, Mr. Chairman, we have the original in Russian and then it was translated by Mr. Gopadze, of the Secret Service.

Mr. Martin. Actually our translation is very poor. He was not able to translate properly into English a lot of the phrases.

Mr. Dulles. Who is "he," Illa? Isn't that Ilya, by the way?

Mr. Martin. I am not sure.

Mr. Dulles. That is generally the Russian, I don't know.

Mr. Rankin. That is right.

Mr. Martin. It might be.

Mr. Dulles. Yes.

Mr. Martin. But he is professor at SMU. He has a list of titles that long. He is very well thought of. I think he works for Sun Oil Company, and is a well-respected individual. His wife and his mother, I believe, teach Russian also. I think his mother taught Mrs. Paine a good deal of her Russian.

Mr. Redlich. Mr. Martin, I would like to show you Commission Exhibit No. 325 which was introduced earlier today. Mr. Leech, I believe you have a photostat of this. If you could hand it to me during the course of this questioning. I would appreciate it.

Mr. Leech. Yes.

Mr. Redlich. Thank you.

Could you tell the Commission what this document purports to state, and then I will ask you about individual items.

Mr. Martin. These are contracts that we have made both in writing and verbally for Marina Oswald's right, her story rights.

Mr. Redlich. And the first item appearing on Commission Exhibit No. 325 is a contract with Texitalia Films.

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Mr. Redlich. Would you describe the terms and conditions of that contract?

Mr. Martin. Texitalia Films is planning a 60-minute technicolor documentary to start. They will pay $75,000 for World-Wide movie and the TV rights.

Mr. Dulles. Excuse me, is this a documentary of Marina's life?

Mr. Martin. Yes. Any movie or television appearances Marina would be paid $7,500 plus expenses for each appearance. Then for each personal appearance, for instance, the film opens in St. Louis on such and such a date and they would like for her to be there to make a personal appearance for the showing, the opening of the film, she would receive $1,500 plus expenses for each public appearance of that nature.

Mr. Redlich. And this contract according to this exhibit was signed on February 11, 1964?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Mr. Leech. By her?

Mr. Martin. No, by me acting for her.

Mr. Redlich. By you acting on behalf of Mrs. Oswald?

Mr. Martin. Yes, in accordance with my contract with her.

Mr. Redlich. The second item appearing here is a contract with Life magazine. Would you tell the Commission about that?

Mr. Martin. Life magazine purchased the rights, North American rights on a photograph of Lee Harvey Oswald with a rifle and pistol, primarily for their use on a cover issue.

24 Mr. Dulles. That is what appeared on the recent cover issue, I guess, it was 2 weeks ago.

Mr. Martin. Yes, sir.

Now, that $5,000 has been paid. We have the $5,000 in an escrow account.

Mr. Redlich. Did you actually have in your possession the photograph, a copy of which appeared on the cover of Life magazine?

Mr. Martin. No.

Mr. Redlich. Could you tell us how this contract was consummated, in view of the fact that Life magazine apparently printed on its cover a photograph which you never possessed?

Mr. Martin. They knew the photographs belonged to Marina. They have a common law copyright, and the only way they could legally use the film is to purchase the rights from Marina.

Mr. Redlich. Did Life magazine indicate to you where they obtained the photograph?

Mr. Martin. No.

Mr. Redlich. Have you had conversations with other publications concerning that photograph?

Mr. Martin. Yes. I made the contact with the London Daily Mirror for the purchase of the British Commonwealth rights on that same photograph, and they guaranteed $2,200 plus 50–50 split on what they sold in the Commonwealth. It was restricted to the Commonwealth only.

However, the London Daily Mail came out with the photograph prior to the Mirror, and I was informed by Mr. Weggand of the London Daily Express that the Detroit Free Press had sold this photograph to the London Daily Mail for $500.

Mr. Redlich. Do you have any idea how the Detroit Free Press obtained this photograph?

Mr. Martin. No. I talked to Ken Murray, who I was informed was the attorney for the Detroit Free Press.

Mr. Redlich. Where did you talk to him?

Mr. Martin. At his home in Detroit.

Mr. Redlich. By phone?

Mr. Martin. By telephone. And he stated that the photograph was public property, and not covered under common law copyright. I asked him where he got the photo, and he said he got it at the same place as Life did, through a leak in the Commission. I talked to Life magazine attorney—I can't remember his name. It is a very odd name. It begins with an "S". Now, Murray said that Life had informed him that they had gotten it from a leak through the Commission, and I contacted Life and he denied saying anything of the sort to Murray.

However, Murray insisted that that is where he got that and he figured it was public domain.

Mr. Redlich. At the start of today's testimony when you mentioned the possibility of a leak with regard to this photograph, something that you said prior to the actual start of hearings, Mr. Rankin and I commented on that assertion.

Would you tell the Commission what we said?

Mr. Martin. That there was definitely not a leak in the Commission, and that you would certainly find out what Murray was talking about.

Mr. Redlich. Did you talk to an editor of the Detroit Free Press with regard to this photograph?

Mr. Martin. I called at night. It was at night, and I asked for the news editor. He was not in, so I talked to a reporter, and he couldn't say anything about it. He referred me to Ken Murray and gave me his home telephone number.

Mr. Redlich. The next item on Commission Exhibit No. 325 has reference to Stern Magazine.

Would you tell the Commission about that, please?

Mr. Martin. Stern Magazine we have been working with since the middle of December. They have been quite patient actually. For $12,500 they wanted Marina's memoirs and photographs, available photographs for use in Germany25 and Italy only. They wanted exclusive use in those two countries. Then they would endeavor to sell these same memoirs and pictures to other European countries, limiting it only to European countries, and take a 30 percent commission on any sales that they made, the remaining 70 percent going to Marina.

Mr. Redlich. Has this contract been signed?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Mr. Redlich. Do you know when it was signed? Can you approximate the date?

Mr. Martin. I confirmed it by wire to them. It is in the exhibits.

Mr. Redlich. We have not introduced——

Mr. Martin. You haven't come to that yet.

Mr. Redlich. We do not intend to introduce the specific documents into the record, just this summary.

Mr. Leech. Give him an approximate date.

Mr. Redlich. You say it was confirmed by telegram.

Mr. Martin. Yes, it was confirmed by telegram to Spiegelberg.

Mr. Leech. When?

Mr. Martin. In New York. December 16 at 2:45 p.m.

Mr. Redlich. The next item on Commission Exhibit No. 325 also refers to Stern Magazine, an item of $2,650.

Could you comment on that?

Mr. Martin. This was a recent development wherein since they could not send an author in to talk to Marina, they purchased seven photographs for a total of $2,650, to take the memoirs later.

However, they will not hold off the memoirs forever.

Mr. Redlich. These seven photographs are photographs of what?

Mr. Martin. Of Marina and Lee Harvey Oswald together and separate.

Mr. Redlich. These were photographs which were not turned over to the Dallas police?

Mr. Martin. No. They were photographs that we were given prints of by the FBI. The FBI sent prints of these photographs to us.

Mr. Redlich. Am I correct in assuming that all of the photographs which were in the possession of Marina Oswald and Lee Harvey Oswald, either in his apartment or in the Paine's apartment, were turned over to the Dallas police?

Is that right?

Mr. Martin. As far as I know.

Mr. Redlich. To the best of your knowledge?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Mr. Redlich. And that any photographs which you have and which have been the basis of any contract are copies which were made available to you by some law enforcement authority?

Mr. Martin. Yes. Now, there was a check, there was a $250 cash down payment made on this $2,650. Then a check for $2,400; the check was stopped, payment on the check was stopped because of a letter written by William McKenzie saying that I had no authority to sign any contracts whatsoever for Marina, and that if they did use anything that I had sold them, litigation would follow immediately. So consequently they stopped payment on the check. I still have the check. It is still attached to the letter that was sent with it.

Mr. Dulles. Could I ask who is that check made out to?

Mr. Martin. Made out to me.

Mr. Dulles. To you as agent?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Mr. Dulles. Or to you just in your name?

Mr. Martin. I think it is just made out to me.

Mr. Dulles. I don't know if it is important.

Mr. Leech. You go ahead and I'll find it.

Mr. Martin. Under the contract all checks were supposed to be made payable to me. Then I would deduct my fee and forward the balance to Marina.

Mr. Redlich. The next item on Commission Exhibit No. 325 refers to Meredith Press.

26 Mr. Martin. The Meredith Press is a book publisher with their main office in Des Moines, Iowa. I had talked with Mr. Ted Purdy at great length and on numerous occasions by phone. We had negotiated world book rights for Marina Oswald's story. For this Meredith Press would pay a $25,000 advance to her. Then on the first printing would be a 10 percent commission of the retail price of the book.

On the second printing would be 12 percent commission, and on the third and succeeding printings it would be 15 percent commission.

Now, of course, the commissions were to be deducted from the advance.

Mr. Redlich. And this was to be her life story?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Mr. Redlich. Had you discussed with Marina at all the contents of this book? Had you started making any preparations for writing?

Mr. Martin. No. I am not a writer, and wouldn't know the first thing to do about a book. But we had negotiated with one writer, Isaac Don Levine, who Meredith Press felt would be the best writer available for this type of book because of the Russian attachment.

Mr. Redlich. When you told us this morning of your initial concern over the Nixon shooting incident, did it relate to these various agreements that you have been working on concerning the sale of Marina Oswald's story?

Mr. Martin. Did it relate to them?

Mr. Redlich. Yes.

Mr. Martin. How do you mean?

Mr. Redlich. Were you concerned about the publicity, the effect of the publicity of the Nixon incident on these various agreements which you were negotiating at the time?

Mr. Martin. No. As a matter of fact, it would enhance the price of it.

For instance, the Post magazine, the Saturday Evening Post, said that they would like to buy American serial rights if there was something in Marina's story that the Commission did not know.

Mr. Redlich. When did they tell you this?

Mr. Martin. Around the first of the year I guess.

Mr. Redlich. Around the first of the year. Did Marina know about this?

Mr. Martin. No.

Mr. Redlich. This is the Saturday Evening Post you are talking about?

Mr. Martin. Yes. I talked to a Mr. Black.

Mr. Redlich. And the Saturday Evening Post said to you that they would buy the serial rights provided there was some information which would not be known to the Commission?

Mr. Martin. Yes. I told them there was no realm that would apply, and we closed negotiations.

Mr. Redlich. And you say you didn't relate this fact at all to Marina Oswald?

Mr. Martin. No.

Mr. Redlich. These negotiations with the Post.

Mr. Martin. No.

Mr. Redlich. Was there in fact to the best of your knowledge material which she did not in fact relate to this Commission?

Mr. Martin. Not to my knowledge other than the Nixon affair.

Mr. Redlich. And were you aware at the time she completed her testimony here that she had not related this information to the Commission?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Mr. Redlich. Was there any connection between her failure to tell the Commission of the Nixon incident and the negotiations, the temporary negotiations that you had had with the Saturday Evening Post?

Mr. Martin. No, none whatsoever. That was closed off at least 30 days before she testified.

Mr. Redlich. Was there any attempt on your part or anyone acting on Marina Oswald's part that you know of to negotiate the sale of the information concerning the Nixon shooting incident?

Mr. Martin. No, not to my knowledge.

Mr. Redlich. When Marina—did Marina ever give you an explanation for why she did not tell the Commission about the Nixon incident?

27 Mr. Martin. No. I have never talked to her about that other than the first time that she told me about it. I asked John Thorne if she had mentioned it. I didn't discuss it with her.

Mr. Redlich. And since Marina Oswald's return from Washington after having testified here, you say you have never discussed the Nixon incident with Marina Oswald in any way?

Mr. Martin. No. I probably would have had there been sufficient time. Of course, she left my home the following day after she got back from Washington.

Mr. Redlich. When you say you probably would have, in what way?

Mr. Martin. Well, since she didn't mention it to the Commission, I feel the Commission should know about it.

Mr. Dulles. Did you know at this time she had not mentioned it to the Commission?

Mr. Martin. I asked John Thorne.

Mr. Dulles. Oh, you asked John Thorne?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Mr. Redlich. What did John Thorne say?

Mr. Martin. Said she had not mentioned it.

Mr. Redlich. Did you ask John Thorne why she had not mentioned it?

Mr. Martin. No.

Mr. Redlich. Did John Thorne offer any information as to why she had not mentioned it?

Mr. Martin. No.

Mr. Redlich. Do you know whether John Thorne had urged her to mention it?

Mr. Martin. No.

Mr. Redlich. John Thorne was aware of the Nixon incident prior to Marina Oswald's appearance before this Commission, was he not?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Mr. Redlich. Because you had apparently told him about that shortly after you learned about it in January.

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Mr. Redlich. Did you discuss the Nixon incident with Robert Oswald after Marina Oswald's appearance before this Commission in February?

Mr. Martin. No.

Mr. Redlich. You had not?

Mr. Martin. I don't know if I discussed it with him prior to the Commission's testimony or not. I may or I may not have. I don't know. I don't know whether I mentioned it to him or not.

Mr. Redlich. Coming back to Commission Exhibit No. 325, the next item under London Daily Mirror, am I correct in assuming that this is, that this item refers to the rifle photo which you discussed earlier in your testimony tonight?

Mr. Martin. Yes, that is right.

Mr. Redlich. Do you have anything to add with regard to that rifle photo that you have not already told us?

Mr. Martin. No.

Mr. Redlich. Did you discuss with Marina Oswald at any time this rifle photo and the circumstances under which it was taken.

Mr. Martin. I asked her at one time why he wanted a photograph taken of that type, and she said she didn't know. He just wanted pictures taken that way.

Mr. Redlich. Did she tell you when this photograph was taken in relationship to any other incidents such as the General Walker incident or the Richard Nixon incident?

Mr. Martin. No.

Mr. Redlich. Did you know where the photograph was taken?

Mr. Martin. I don't know, I don't even know if it was in Oak Cliff or not. I have an idea that it was in Oak Cliff but I don't know whether I know that or whether I have read it.

Mr. Redlich. When you say Oak Cliff, some of us don't live in Dallas.

Mr. Martin. It is a suburb of Dallas, a section of Dallas.

28 Mr. Redlich. Are you referring to the area where the Neely Street house was located?

To refresh your recollection, Mr. Martin, the Oswalds lived in two places in Dallas. One was on Elsbeth Street and the other on Neely. Are they both in Oak Cliff?

Mr. Martin. Yes, Elsbeth Street is right around the corner from Neely Street, I believe they lived in an apartment on Elsbeth.

It was a group of apartments in one building, and on Neely Street, I think, that was similar to a duplex.

Mr. Redlich. And you are not certain as to where this photograph which was the subject of these negotiations was taken?

Mr. Martin. No, except that the Elsbeth address, I believe, was a brick residence, I mean a brick apartment, it is a dark building, and the Neely Street address is a white building.

I believe the photo shows a white building.

Mr. Redlich. On the basis of that you would conclude the photograph was taken at which address?

Mr. Martin. At the Neely Street address.

Mr. Redlich. At the Neely Street address. When you were negotiating with various publications for this photograph, didn't anyone ask you when and where it was taken?

Mr. Martin. Yes, I told them that it was while they were living in Oak Cliff. I didn't say where or when.

Mr. Redlich. No one asked you.

Mr. Martin. And they apparently weren't concerned with the where or when.

Mr. Redlich. Did they ask you anything about the publication which Lee Oswald had in his hand?

Mr. Martin. Yes, and I told them that it was either the Militant or the Worker. I was not sure which one. I am not even sure whether either one.

Mr. Redlich. Your copy of the photograph did not indicate clearly which one it was?

Mr. Martin. Correct.

Mr. Redlich. Do you now know which one it was?

Mr. Martin. No.

Mr. Dulles. Are you sure it is one of the two?

Mr. Martin. No, I am not. I assume that it would be one of the two.

Mr. Redlich. For the record it is the Militant.

Mr. Dulles. It is?

Mr. Redlich. Is there anything about the circumstances of this photograph, including the rifle, the pistol, the time, the place, anything concerning this photograph that you have not told this Commission about which you have knowledge?

Mr. Martin. No.

Mr. Redlich. The last item on Commission Exhibit No. 325 is This Week magazine, $1,000. Could you tell us about that. At the conclusion of this list I will ask if there is anything else. We are now at This Week magazine.

Mr. Martin. When Marina was here in Washington, she had the press conference, and at the end of the press conference she mentioned, she made a statement "Now I go to church." On the way to the CBS studios we passed a Russian Orthodox Church, and she remarked about it, that she would like to come back and go inside, see what it looked like. Someone in This Week magazine caught that statement, and wanted to write a short article on Marina going to church, and that is what that is.

Mr. Redlich. What happened? Could you tell us how this article got written?

Mr. Martin. It hasn't been written.

Mr. Redlich. Did the reporter accompany Mrs. Oswald to church?

Mr. Martin. Oh, no. Actually when the television interview was over, we came back and went to the church, but the church was locked and we didn't get in at all. Now this contact was made after we left Washington. This Week magazine contacted us after, not while we were still here.

Mr. Redlich. And what was the subject matter of this article specifically supposed to be?

29 Mr. Martin. The title of it was supposed to be "I go to church," and it would be an article written on Marina going to church.

Mr. Redlich. Mr. Martin, the total figure on the bottom of Commission Exhibit No. 325 is $132,350. This presumably does not include any future royalties, is that correct?

Mr. Martin. That is correct.

Mr. Redlich. Have you made an estimate as to the total earnings which would accrue as a result of these contractual arrangements?

Mr. Martin. It should be approximately $300,000 at a maximum, depending on what American serial rights and British Commonwealth serial rights, Asiatic serial rights would bring.

Mr. Redlich. You say the maximum of $300,000?

Mr. Martin. I think so.

Mr. Leech. Of those contracts?

Mr. Redlich. That is what I am asking about are these.

Mr. Martin. Of these contracts, yes.

Mr. Redlich. Could you tell us about any other contractual arrangements that you have made or are negotiating on behalf of Marina Oswald?

Mr. Martin. There are no others. I will have to refer to things. We had an offer from Australia and also from New Zealand as far as this photograph is concerned. However, it was thrown to the wind by the Detroit Free Press, so they got it from Detroit Free Press, we have been offered—we have not received an offer. The Australian newspaper——

Mr. Dulles. Do you need these details do you think?

Mr. Redlich. I want to get the total figure, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Martin. Associated Newspapers Limited of Australia would like to have Australian rights to a book that Marina would write, and also the London Evening Standard would like to have the British rights, of course, to the picture of Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. Redlich. Mr. Martin, Mr. Thorne has indicated to this Commission that he estimated that Marina's earnings would approach approximately $500,000. Would you comment on that estimate?

Mr. Martin. I think it might be a little high. Of course, if you take into consideration she has $68,000, close to $70,000 in contributions alone, then the advances on this Exhibit No. 325, that is $200,000 right there. I think $500,000 might be just a little bit high.

Mr. Redlich. The final document I would like to show you is a photostat of a letter which you presented to the Commission today, purporting to be a letter written in Russian together with an English translation. It starts, the English translation starts with the words "As the widow of Lee Oswald." I show you Commission Exhibit No. 333 and ask you if this is a photostat of the letter which you submitted to the Commission this morning.

Mr. Martin. Yes, apparently so.

Mr. Dulles. Who is that letter to?

Mr. Redlich. We don't know yet.

Mr. Dulles. You don't know yet?

Mr. Redlich. I will develop that in the questioning. I mark this Commission Exhibit No. 333, being a Russian letter and what purports to be its English translation and ask that it be admitted in evidence.

Mr. Dulles. Can you identify that any further than just a Russian letter?

Mr. Redlich. On the top appears a date, and the day of the month is the 20th. I am unable to tell what month it is.

Mr. Martin. But the year is 1964, and the words "Dallas, Texas" then appear under the date.

Mr. Dulles. That helps identify it.

Mr. Redlich. I ask that it be admitted in evidence.

Mr. Dulles. Any objection?

Mr. Leech. No objection.

Mr. Dulles. It is admitted.

(The photostats of a Russian letter with an English translation were marked Commission Exhibit No. 333 for identification and received in evidence.)

Mr. Redlich. Mr. Martin, with your permission I would just summarize the30 contents of this letter, and if I have summarized it inaccurately, just say so. This letter requests that the death penalty not be applied to Jack Ruby, the person who has been charged with the murder of Lee Harvey Oswald. Is that inaccurate?

Mr. Martin. No; that is correct.

Mr. Redlich. That is a correct summary of the contents of the letter?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Mr. Redlich. Do you recall to whom that letter was written?

Mr. Martin. She originally wrote the letter to Melvin Belli.

Mr. Redlich. By "she" you mean Marina Oswald?

Mr. Martin. Marina. I advised her against——

Mr. Redlich. Melvin Belli?

Mr. Martin. Is the attorney for Jack Ruby. I advised her against such an action, because of the possibility of the letter itself in translating from Russian to English being misinterpreted and used in a manner that might be derogatory to Marina Oswald. I suggested that she send this letter to Henry Wade who would be the prosecutor in the case. Now whether she changed the salutation on the letter I don't know. I can't read Russian. And the salutation was not translated in the translation. The translation was made by Katya Ford.

Mr. Redlich. To the best of your knowledge has this letter ever been sent to anyone?

Mr. Martin. No sir, it hasn't.

Mr. Dulles. You say it has not been?

Mr. Martin. It has not been.

Mr. Dulles. That is your belief or you have knowledge that it has not been?

Mr. Martin. I have the original. Now if a letter has been sent, it would be a different letter.

Mr. Redlich. On the basis of your knowledge of Marina Oswald's handwriting, would you tell the Commission whether you believe that this letter is in her handwriting?

Mr. Martin. Yes, it is. I also observed her writing the letter.

Mr. Redlich. Are you aware of the fact that Marina Oswald discussed this letter when she appeared before this Commission?

Mr. Martin. I believe you mentioned it sometime today.

Mr. Redlich. Were you aware of it prior to your coming here?

Mr. Martin. No.

Mr. Redlich. Do you know why it has not been sent?

Mr. Martin. She decided that it was best not to be sent unless she actually thought that Ruby was going to get the death penalty. Actually a letter like that should go to the Governor of the State.

Mr. Redlich. Mr. Martin, do you have any additional information concerning the assassination of President Kennedy, Marina Oswald, or the assassination of her husband Lee Harvey Oswald which you would like to present before this Commission at this time?

Mr. Martin. No, I don't think so. Nothing.

Mr. Redlich. If it would be helpful for the work of this Commission for you to return to Washington and appear again before this Commission, would you be willing to do so?

Mr. Martin. Yes, sir.

Mr. Redlich. Mr. Chairman, I have no further questions of this witness, unless Mr. Rankin does or you do.

Mr. Dulles. I would just like to ask a question about this letter I am just glancing over. Where did this letter paper come from? Is that some personal paper with a tree on it?

Mr. Martin. Yes. I bought that.

Mr. Dulles. You bought it for her?

Mr. Martin. At a drug store, yes, sir, at a drug store in Arlington.

Mr. Dulles. Is this another draft or is this just a copy?

Mr. Martin. This is the original of the copy.

Mr. Redlich. We have photographed what is now Commission Exhibit No. 333 and we are keeping the photostat. Mr. Martin, you will recall that at the start of today's proceedings Chief Justice Warren read into the record a copy31 of the letter which you received requesting certain notes, records, documents in connection with today's hearing. Have you made available to the Commission all of the material which was requested in that letter?

Mr. Martin. Yes, sir; I went through everything I had at home, and could find nothing else.

Mr. Redlich. If you should find anything else which you inadvertently failed to bring before this Commission, will you mail it to us for examination and we will return it to you.

Mr. Martin. Yes, sir; there is a Worker that I have.

Mr. Redlich. You mean by Worker the Daily Worker?

Mr. Martin. Yes. I think they dropped the "Daily."

Mr. Dulles. They are no longer daily.

Mr. Martin. It is called the Worker now. It has quite a lengthy article about Marina in it, and I will send that to you.

Mr. Redlich. And you will send anything that you may come across which you may have inadvertently failed to produce before this Commission?

Mr. Martin. Yes, sir.

Mr. Redlich. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Dulles. There were some questions that Senator Cooper had suggested. I don't know, have you looked those over? Have they been covered?

Mr. Rankin. Yes.

Mr. Redlich. Those have been covered.

Mr. Dulles. All been covered?

Mr. Redlich. Yes.

Mr. Dulles. Did Marina ever express to you her opinion as to the guilt or innocence of her husband in connection with the assassination of the President?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Mr. Dulles. What did she say?

Mr. Martin. She believes he was guilty. She believes he did it, and the first time she said it I questioned her as to why she thought he did it, and she said she just felt it. It was a woman's intuition. She didn't know the word intuition at that time. I had to look it up in the Russian-English Dictionary.

Mr. Dulles. Did she indicate any view as to whether he did it alone or had an accomplice or accomplices?

Mr. Martin. She remarked about the Walker incident, that that was definitely done alone, and that he always was alone. He never did anything with anyone else. I don't recall that she mentioned that specifically in the case of the assassination of the President. But she had made that remark before or during the interim about Walker.

Mr. Dulles. Did she ever at any time express to you any interest in returning to the Soviet Union or her desire to stay in the United States?

Mr. Martin. Well, she has always said that she wanted to stay in the United States. One time she said that she thought she would go back to Russia, and I asked her why and she said, well, she was just joking.

Mr. Dulles. Did she ever refer to you any letters she wrote to the Soviet Embassy with regard to a desire to return?

Mr. Martin. No. There was only one incident that she told me about was a letter to a friend in Russia.

Mr. Dulles. You mentioned that I think.

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Mr. Dulles. The one that she didn't put enough stamps on, enough postage on.

Mr. Martin. Yes, it came back "insufficient postage."

Mr. Dulles. Did she ever mention to you any names of any friends or associates of her husband that had not been discussed here at one time or another in this testimony, including the list of names that was read out to you?

Mr. Martin. No.

Mr. Dulles. Do you know any other friends that Marina has other than those that have been discussed in this testimony?

Mr. Martin. No. I was trying to think a while ago about that, and I can't think of anyone else.

Mr. Dulles. That is all I have.

32 Mr. Redlich. Mr. Leech, would you like to ask Mr. Martin any questions at this time?

Mr. Leech. Not a word.

Mr. Dulles. Mr. Rhyne? Mr. Rankin, have you any further questions?

Mr. Rankin. Mr. Chairman, I merely wish to thank him for appearing voluntarily.

Mr. Dulles. I do thank you for coming and responding so fully to our questions.

Mr. Martin. Anything I can do.

Mr. Dulles. And if anything occurs to you or to your counsel as sometimes happens later, we will be very glad if you or your counsel will bring it to our attention.

Mr. Martin. Yes, sir; I certainly will.

Mr. Redlich. May I before we adjourn ask another question?

Mr. Dulles. Certainly.

Mr. Redlich. Have you ever discussed with Mrs. Marguerite Oswald the question of the guilt or innocence of Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. Martin. No. The only time I was in contact with Marguerite Oswald was at the Inn of the Six Flags in Arlington, Tex., and I don't believe I really discussed anything with her. I was more on the sidelines and didn't enter into any discussions with her at all.

Mr. Redlich. And have you discussed with Robert Oswald the question of the guilt or innocence of Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. Martin. Yes. Let's see, on one occasion the article by Mark Lane, I think it was in the National Observer, was printed in the National Observer, and I called Robert's attention to that. I believe he cited 15 points where he believed that Lee Oswald was innocent, and I remarked to Robert that in nearly 100 percent of those points they were just completely out of line. The brief I believe was taken from newspaper accounts, from various newspaper accounts of the assassination, and a number of them contradicted each other.

Mr. Redlich. Did Robert Oswald comment on this?

Mr. Martin. No.

Mr. Redlich. For the record I believe the publication you are referring to is the National Guardian.

Mr. Martin. The National Guardian, yes.

Mr. Redlich. Is that your recollection now?

Mr. Martin. Yes, National Guardian.

Mr. Redlich. And Robert Oswald had no comment on this?

Mr. Martin. No.

Mr. Redlich. We have no further questions.

Mr. Dulles. The Commission will stand adjourned, subject to call.

(Whereupon, at 10:20 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)


Wednesday, March 4, 1964
TESTIMONY OF MARK LANE

The President's Commission met at 2:30 p.m., on March 4, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C.

Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Senator John Sherman Cooper and Representative Gerald R. Ford, members.

Also present were J. Lee Rankin, general counsel; Norman Redlich, assistant counsel; Charles Murray and Charles Rhyne, assistants to Walter E. Craig.

The Chairman. The Commission will be in order.

The Commission has been informed that Mr. Lane has collected numerous materials relevant to the Commission's work.

33 The Commission proposes to question Mr. Lane on all matters of which he has knowledge concerning the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent killing of Lee Harvey Oswald, and to request of Mr. Lane that he make available to the Commission any documentary material in his possession which can assist the Commission in its work.

In accordance with the rules of this Commission, Mr. Lane has been furnished with a copy of this statement.

Mr. Lane, would please rise and be sworn? Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. Lane. I do.

The Chairman. Will you be seated, please.

Mr. Rankin, would you proceed with the examination, please?

Mr. Rankin. Mr. Lane, will you state your name?

Mr. Lane. My name is Mark Lane.

Mr. Rankin. Where do you live?

Mr. Lane. 164 West 79th Street, New York City, New York State.

Mr. Rankin. Are you a practicing lawyer?

Mr. Lane. Yes; I am.

Mr. Rankin. Will you state your age, please?

Mr. Lane. I am 37 years old.

Mr. Rankin. How long have you been practicing law?

Mr. Lane. Thirteen years.

Mr. Rankin. You have qualified in the State of New York?

Mr. Lane. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Are you qualified in any other Jurisdiction?

Mr. Lane. Just in the Federal court.

Mr. Rankin. Do you have some information concerning the matters being investigated by the Commission that you would like to present to the Commission?

Mr. Lane. Yes; I do.

Mr. Rankin. Will you proceed to do so?

Mr. Lane. Yes.

I wonder if I might ask at the outset if I will be able to secure a copy of the transcript of my testimony tomorrow, or is that going to be rushing things?

The Chairman. You will be able to obtain it. I don't know whether we can promise it to you tomorrow morning or not. But we will do it just as quickly as it can be transcribed by the reporter.

Mr. Lane. Thank you, sir.

At the outset, I would like to request that this portion of the hearing, in any event, be opened to the public. I think that there are matters here of grave concern to all the people of our country, and that it would, therefore, be fruitful and constructive for the sessions to be conducted in a public fashion, open to the public and to the press.

Accordingly, I request that this session at least involving my testimony be so opened to the public.

The Chairman. You would have a right, as any witness would have, to request that, Mr. Lane. We will conduct this in an open hearing. We will adjourn at this time to the auditorium downstairs, and we will conduct the hearing there. It will be open to the public. I saw a good many members of the press around, so it will really be a public affair.

(Whereupon, at 2:45 p.m., the Commission recessed and then reconvened in the auditorium in open session.)


TESTIMONY OF MARK LANE RESUMED IN OPEN SESSION

The Chairman. The Commission will be in order.

The Commission convened in our committee room on the fourth floor.

A reporter has been appointed.

Mr. Lane has been sworn.

Mr. Lane has stated that he would like to give his testimony at a public hearing.34 I explained to him that that was thoroughly agreeable to the Commission. The Commission does not operate in a secret way. Any witness who desires to have his—give his testimony in public may do so.

We have done it in the quiet of our rooms for the convenience of witnesses, and in order to accelerate the program. But any witness who desires to have his testimony recorded at a public hearing may do so.

The purpose of this Commission is, of course, eventually to make known to the President, and to the American public everything that has transpired before this Commission. All of it will be made available at the appropriate time. The records of the work of the Commission will be preserved for the public. So, Mr. Lane, we will be happy to accommodate you, and to proceed with our hearing.

Now, Mr. Rankin will conduct the examination.

(Having been previously duly sworn.)

Mr. Rankin. Mr. Lane, will you proceed to tell the Commission whatever you have that would bear upon this investigation? Start item by item, and give us whatever you have in support.

Mr. Lane. Yes, sir.

At the outset, I would like to call to the Commission's attention a matter which is somewhat peripheral, perhaps, and should the Commission determine it does not wish to hear my testimony in that regard, I will understand that. But I would like to call it to your attention, because although it is peripheral I think it is related to both the assassination and the investigation into the assassination of the President.

That is in relationship to a picture which has been widely publicized, probably in every single community of our country, allegedly showing Lee Harvey Oswald holding in his hand a rifle which has been described in at least one publication, Life magazine, as the weapon with which he assassinated President Kennedy.

I would like to indicate to the Commission at this time that the pictures which have been distributed throughout the country included doctored and forged photographs. I would like to present evidence to the Commission at this time in that regard.

I ask the Commission if it does conclude that the photographs have been doctored, whether it will consider determining whether or not a crime has been committed, or an effort has been made to submit evidence to the Commission members, though not directly through the press, from magazines, which evidence——

The Chairman. I didn't get that last sentence—something about the Commission?

Mr. Lane. I am asking the Commission if it does conclude that the pictures have been doctored, to consider investigating the method by which the doctoring took place, who was responsible, and whether or not an effort has been made to influence the members of the Commission, while not directly, through the publication of this picture, which certainly has been circulated very widely throughout our country.

The Chairman. You may be sure, Mr. Lane, that anything you present in that regard will be thoroughly considered by the Commission.

Mr. Lane. Thank you, sir.

I would like to offer the February 21, 1964 issue of Life magazine.

Mr. Rankin. Will you mark that, Mr. Reporter, please, the next number.

Mr. Lane. A picture appears on the entire cover of Life magazine, and an identical picture appears in the interior pages, at page 80. The caption on the cover reads, "Lee Oswald with the weapons he used to kill President Kennedy and Officer Tippit."

I think it is quite plain from looking at both of the pictures that there appears on the rifle, what appears to be a rifle in the left hand of Lee Harvey Oswald, a telescopic sight.

Mr. Rankin. Mr. Lane, we will mark that Exhibit No. 334.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 334, for identification.)

Mr. Lane. Next I would like to offer a picture which is a glossy 8-by-1135 picture, of a photograph published in the New York Times, secured by the New York Times from the Associated Press.

Representative Ford. Is there any verification of the fact that that is as you have identified it?

Mr. Lane. That is what—a picture secured——

Representative Ford. From the New York Times, which in turn had acquired it from the Associated Press?

Mr. Lane. Well, that is a statement which I have made under oath, and it can be verified with the New York Times.

Mr. Rankin. That is Exhibit 335 that you are just referring to, Mr. Lane.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 335, for identification.)

Mr. Lane. I suggest that is the identical picture with the one published on the cover of Life magazine, Exhibit 334, in every respect, including the creases in the trousers, the background, with the exception of the rifle in the hands of Oswald, which appears to have no telescopic scope in Exhibit 335.

In addition, there clearly has been some other doctoring of the photograph around the head of Lee Harvey Oswald, and the trees and other background material over his left shoulder have been removed from the Associated Press picture, but are present in the Life magazine picture.

Shadows and fenceposts which can be observed between the legs of Lee Harvey Oswald in Exhibit 335 have been removed in the Life magazine picture. I would like to offer this picture as the next exhibit.

Mr. Rankin. That will be marked Exhibit 336.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 336 for identification.)

Mr. Rankin. Will you tell us what that is, Mr. Lane?

Mr. Lane. Yes; 336 is an 8-by-11 glossy photograph of a picture appearing in Newsweek magazine, March 2, 1964, credited by Newsweek magazine to the Detroit Free Press. I would suggest that that is an identical picture with the other two pictures in every respect, except that it has no telescopic sight on the rifle, and there is a great deal of metallic materials present on that rifle clearly not present in the other two pictures.

The Chairman. Did you say metallics?

Mr. Lane. Metallics.

Mr. Rankin. Will you tell us what you mean by that, Mr. Lane?

Mr. Lane. Yes. Just below the hand, the left hand of Lee Harvey Oswald, there is clearly visible a series of pieces of metal, allegedly part of the rifle, which are in no way clear—which are in no way present in the other pictures.

The Chairman. I see.

Mr. Lane. To make that clearer, I would like to offer Exhibit 337, which is an enlargement of the picture 335, the New York Times picture.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 337, for identification.)

Mr. Lane. This enlarges the area on the rifle just below what is allegedly Oswald's left hand. It clearly shows an absolute absence of all of the metallic material present in the Newsweek photo, 336.

This is a front page of the New York Journal American dated February 18, 1964, which is an identical picture with the one published in Life magazine, Exhibit 334, and the credit lines appearing on that publication indicate that the picture has been secured from the Associated Press through the Detroit Free Press.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 338, for identification.)

Mr. Lane. That picture has a telescopic sight, and is not the picture in terms of the metal material on the rifle which Newsweek stated they secured through the Detroit Free Press, and is not the picture without the telescopic sight which the New York Times states that it secured through the Associated Press. In any event, I would like to submit a picture procured from Worldwide Photos.

Mr. Rankin. 339.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 339, for identification.)

36 Mr. Lane. This is allegedly a picture taken in the Dallas Police Station, showing the alleged murder weapon.

The Chairman. That is No. 339, Mr. Lane?

Mr. Lane. Yes, sir, and I would call the Commission's attention to the curved line of the stock present in Exhibit 339, and obviously absent from every other picture, indicating that in no event is the rifle allegedly in the hands of Lee Oswald, in Exhibits 334 through 338 comparable to the alleged murder weapon as shown in the Dallas police station.

And should the Commission decide to investigate the obviously doctored pictures that have been circulated so widely in our country, I would refer the Commission investigators to the Times Picayune of New Orleans, published on November 24, 1963, in which an Associated Press story indicated that the Dallas police chief, Jesse Curry, stated that he had in his possession photographs found in the home of Lee Harvey Oswald's Russian-born wife which linked Oswald with the rifle used in the assassination of President Kennedy. Curry said in the article attributed to Curry——

Mr. Rankin. Do you wish to make that a part of the record?

Mr. Lane. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. That will be Exhibit 340.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 340 for identification.)

Mr. Lane. The article attributes a statement to Curry indicating that he, the Dallas Police Chief, found the pictures in the suburban Irving, Tex., home in which Marina Oswald lived, and stated that Mr. Curry had said that the pictures will be used in evidence in Oswald's murder trial. This was published, I assume, prior to the time that Oswald was himself killed on that day.

Representative Ford. Would the date of the paper be on the back side?

The Chairman. It is on the front. November 24th.

Mr. Lane. I would like to offer this as an exhibit.

Mr. Rankin. This is marked Commission Exhibit 341.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 341, for identification.)

Mr. Lane. Exhibit 341 is a page or portion of a page of the New York Times, on Sunday, December 8, with a picture of the alleged murder weapon, secured, according to the credit line under the picture, from the United Press International, indicating clearly that that rifle is not the rifle allegedly being held by Mr. Oswald in any of the pictures so widely circulated throughout our country.

Mr. Rankin. On what do you base that last conclusion, Mr. Lane? Would you point out to the Commission the differences as you see them?

Mr. Lane. Yes; the reference of the stock. The stock has a clearly curved and bent line in this picture.

Mr. Rankin. That is in Exhibit 341?

Mr. Lane. Yes, and it is present in none of the pictures of Oswald holding the rifle; 336, for example, in Newsweek magazine shows almost a straight stock. Some of them show even an absolutely straight stock.

Exhibit 335 from the New York Times shows a perfectly straight stock—which is not only a stock unlike this particular Italian 6.5 millimeter carbine, but is a stock I believe unlike any rifle stock produced during the 20th century, and possibly the 19th century, anywhere. Rifle experts seem to agree that every stock must have in it some break, so that it is possible to place your hand around the rifle while your finger holds the trigger. And there is no break in the doctored photographs, in the stock portrayed on the doctored photographs.

I have checked many rifle catalogs. This is not my field, and I don't qualify as an expert. But I have checked many rifle catalogs, and have only seen rifles with a break where the stock becomes narrow enough for one's hand to grasp it while pulling the trigger.

Mr. Rankin. Is that the basis of your opinion that you have just given, that it doesn't have a break in it, and that other rifles for any period later than you have described do?

Mr. Lane. Well, several persons who have described themselves as rifle experts have made that statement to me.

37 Mr. Rankin. Who are those?

Mr. Lane. I believe I have some of their names here. I don't have the names of those who have called, but I can secure that at our first break by a telephone call to my office.

Mr. Rankin. Would you furnish that then?

Mr. Lane. Surely. In any event, whether there was another rifle or not, the rifle portrayed in the picture is clearly—in the picture in which Oswald is allegedly holding the rifle—clearly is not the rifle allegedly claimed to be the murder weapon. I wonder if I might ask the Commission if it might produce the rifle now, so that we might compare the actual rifle with the pictures.

The Chairman. We will do that in due course. But we don't have the rifle here now, Mr. Lane. We will make the proper comparisons, you may be sure, with experts.

Mr. Lane. Now, on another peripheral matter—unless there are any further questions in relation to this matter——

Mr. Rankin. No, you may proceed. Do you have negatives of these pictures you have produced?

Mr. Lane. No. I am glad you asked that question, because I can now relate to you about a conversation that I had 2 or 3 days ago with a Mr. Dirksen, who is on the photo desk of the Associated Press. I called Mr. Dirksen and asked him for a glossy of the picture which the Associated Press sent out over the wire service.

Mr. Rankin. Could you identify Mr. Dirksen a little more clearly?

Mr. Lane. He just told me he was employed. I called the Associated Press in New York City and asked for the photo desk, Mr. Dirksen answered and said he was employed there. I asked him what his specific position was there, and he declined to give me that information. He said he didn't think it was relevant.

In any event, I asked him if he could secure for me a glossy, a glossy copy of the picture sent by the Associated Press over the wires. And I described the picture as the one of Oswald allegedly holding the murder weapon in his left hand, and having on his right hip a pistol, allegedly the pistol with which he slew Officer Tippit.

Mr. Dirksen stated to me that he could not make a glossy of that picture available to me and I pointed out to him that in the past the Associated Press had been most cooperative when I asked for pictures, and he said, "Yes, we sent a whole batch up to you last week, didn't we?" I said, "Yes, you did, I appreciated that. I wonder why this picture is being treated differently from other pictures." He said, "This is not a normal picture and this is not the normal situation."

I asked him what he meant by that. He explained that there was a special contract—he did not have all the details, he said, because he is not one of the persons who was involved in drafting the contract—but there was a special contract between the Associated Press and the source of this picture, and they agreed, the Associated Press agreed in this contract that they would not make a glossy available to anyone, that they would send the pictures out only to their subscribers, and that no one else would be allowed to see the picture.

I said if that was the understanding, I certainly would not wish to have them breach their agreement, and asked if instead he would make the name of the source known to me, so that I might go directly to the source and see if I might secure the picture in that fashion. He stated he could not do that, because one of the other stipulations in the contract would be that they could not reveal the name of the source of the picture.

I discussed this with an employee of the New York Times thereafter, since I knew that the New York Times was a subscriber to the services made available by the Associated Press.

Mr. Rankin. Could you identify that employee, please?

Mr. Lane. No, I am not going to be able to discuss sources, obviously, here, I am sorry.

But this employee indicated to me thereafter that an inquiry had been made by the New York Times to the Associated Press along the same lines as the inquiry which I had made, in terms of trying to determine the source of the38 Associated Press picture. And I was informed by this employee of the New York Times that the Associated Press declined to name the source of the picture, even when the New York Times made a request. Therefore, I do not have the negative, and I do not know the source of the picture.

Mr. Rankin. Is that true with regard to all of the pictures that you produced?

Mr. Lane. My office called Life magazine, and asked someone at Life magazine on the photo desk, the editorial department, if a picture could be made available and they stated that they would not make a glossy available—it was their policy in reference to all pictures in their possession.

Those are the only inquiries I made with reference to the source of the pictures.

Mr. Rankin. Now you may proceed.

Mr. Lane. Yes. I would like to raise one other peripheral matter before going into the evidence, if I might. That is, I would like to call to the attention of the Commission this article, and ask that it be marked as an exhibit.

Mr. Rankin. That has been marked Commission Exhibit 342.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 342, for identification.)

Mr. Lane. Thank you.

This is an article appearing in the New York Journal American Sunday, February 23.

Mr. Rankin. This consists of two separate pages, does it not?

Mr. Lane. It does—the first page being a masthead and front page, headline from the Journal American, dated Sunday, February 23, 1964, and the second page containing a portion of the front page of the Journal American on that date, and a portion of page 15, the continued story of the Journal American on the same date.

This is an article written by Bob Considine, who enjoys a reputation for being an excellent reporter. Mr. Considine states in his article that an eyewitness to the shooting of Officer Tippit by the name of Warren Reynolds was himself recently shot through the head by a man with a rifle.

Now, I don't believe that it is alleged that Reynolds actually saw the person pull the trigger which sent the bullets at Officer Tippit. As I understand it, Mr. Reynolds has stated that he, Reynolds, heard the shot, the shooting, left his office and saw a man running away, placing new shells into a pistol as he ran away. And Mr. Considine indicates that Reynolds thereafter identified Oswald as the person who was running from the scene.

This article indicated that during January, Mr. Reynolds was himself shot through the head with a rifle, and that he is in the hospital—I believe he was in the hospital at that time. I don't know what the state of his health is at the present time.

Mr. Considine indicates that a person was picked up in the Dallas area and charged with the shooting, but that someone who Mr. Considine refers to as "his girl"—I assume he is making reference to the gentleman who was charged with the attack upon Reynolds—testified in such a fashion, and took a lie detector test, so that the person charged with the crime was released.

This person, Betty Mooney MacDonald, who helped to free her friend, according to Mr. Considine, herself had worked as a stripper in the Carousel Club in Dallas, owned by Jack Ruby.

Two weeks before this article was written, Miss MacDonald was herself arrested for a fight with her roommate, and the week before the article was written, Mr. Considine states she hanged herself in her cell.

I would request the Commission to investigate into these series of most unusual coincidences, to see if they have any bearing upon the basic matter pending before the Commission.

The Chairman. It may be introduced as are all of these pictures, admitted.

(The documents heretofore marked for identification as Commission Exhibits Nos. 334 to 342, were received in evidence.)

Mr. Lane. In the course of my investigation, I have come across some material which would be relevant only if I was first able to examine the rifle, quite frankly. I wonder if that might be able to be accomplished sometime during the day?

39 The Chairman. During the day?

Mr. Lane. Today, if possible.

The Chairman. Well, I think not, because we don't have it. But we will make it available to you, though, at the very first opportunity, Mr. Lane.

Mr. Lane. Fine. Then I will reserve my comment in reference to the rifle for that occasion.

The Chairman. You may.

Mr. Lane. Thank you. I would like to, on behalf of Lee Harvey Oswald, make this information available to the Commission.

It, of course, has been alleged by the chief of police of Dallas, and by the district attorney of Dallas that Oswald was present on the sixth floor of the Texas Book Depository Building during the very early afternoon of November 22, 1963, and that from that area he fired an Italian carbine, 6.5 millimeters, three times, twice striking the President of the United States, wounding him fatally, and injuring the Governor of Texas by striking him with a bullet, on one occasion.

The physician who signed the death certificate of the President pronouncing him dead was Dr. Kemp Clark, whose name appeared on the official homicide report filed by the Dallas Police Department, and attested to by two police officers.

On the 27th of November, the New York Times reported, "Dr. Kemp Clark, who pronounced Mr. Kennedy dead, said one bullet struck him at about the necktie knot, 'It ranged downward in his chest and did not exit' the surgeon said."

On the same day the New York Herald Tribune stated, "On the basis of accumulated data, investigators have concluded that the first shot fired as the Presidential car was approaching, struck the President in the neck, just above the knot of his necktie, then ranged downward into his body."

According to Richard Dudman—Mr. Dudman is the Washington correspondent, as I am sure you all know better than I, for the St. Louis Post-Dispatch—according to him, the surgeons who attended the President while he was at the Parkland Memorial Hospital, described the wound—were in agreement in describing the wound in the throat as an entrance wound. The St. Louis Post-Dispatch on December 1 carried a rather long and involved story by Mr. Dudman, recounting his conversations with the physicians who were treating the President on the 22d at the Parkland Memorial Hospital.

Dr. Perry explained that he began to open an air passage in the President's throat in an effort to restore his breathing, and he explained that the incision had been made through the bullet wound in the President's throat—since that was in the correct place for the operation, in any event. Dr. Perry, according to Mr. Dudman, described to him the bullet hole as an entrance wound.

Dr. Robert N. McClelland, who was one of the three physicians who participated in that operation, later stated to Mr. Dudman, "It certainly did look like an entrance wound."

He went on to say that he saw bullet wounds every day in Dallas, sometimes several times a day, and that this did appear to be an entrance wound.

One doctor made reference to the frothing of blood in the neck wound. The doctor said, "He is bubbling air." Two of the doctors, Drs. Peters and Baxter, inserted a tube into the right upper part of the President's chest, just below the shoulder, to reexpand the lungs, and to keep them from collapsing.

Dr. Jones and Dr. Perry inserted a similar tube on the left portion of the President's chest.

The activity was necessitated because the bubbling air was the first clue that they had that the President's lung had been punctured.

The prosecuting authorities, confronted with what seemed then to be evidence that the President had been shot from the front, in the throat——

The Chairman. Are you reading now, Mr. Lane?

Mr. Lane. No, I am just making reference to this. That is not a quote.

The Chairman. It is not a quote. You are just paraphrasing what was in this article of Mr. Dudman's?

Mr. Lane. No, I am leaving Mr. Dudman now, and going on to statements40 made by the prosecuting authorities. I will submit quotations—I will try to remember to place quotation marks when I have a quotation.

The Chairman. Yes, all right.

Mr. Lane. The authorities who were confronted with what seemed to be irrefutable evidence that the President had been shot in the front of the throat, concluded that the Presidential limousine was approaching the Book Depository Building when the first shot was fired, because it seems at the very outset a theory was developed by the prosecuting authorities that Oswald was on the sixth floor of the Book Depository Building, that he was the assassin, and that he acted alone.

I think that the record and an examination of the activities of the Dallas police, and the Dallas district attorney's office, will show that the only area where they have been consistent from the outset was once this theory was enunciated, they stayed with the theory, and they were devoted to the theory, regardless of the discovery of new evidence and new facts.

For example, the New York Times stated on November 26, 1963, "The known facts about the bullets, and the position of the assassin, suggested that he started shooting as the President's car was coming toward him, swung his rifle in an arc of almost 180, and fired at least twice more." At that time, the prosecution case had already been developed in terms of the theory that Oswald was the assassin and that Oswald acted alone.

There were newspaper pictures published in many portions of the country showing the Textbook Depository Building on Houston Street where the Presidential limousine approached the Book Depository Building, and Elm Street, where after the limousine made a sharp left turn it continued until it reached the underpass directly ahead.

And in these newspapers, there were superimposed dotted lines showing the trajectory of the three bullets, showing that the first bullet was fired while the Presidential car was still on Houston Street, still approaching the Book Depository Building.

However, it soon became essential for the prosecution to abandon that theory, because the eyewitnesses present, including Governor Connally, and Mrs. Connally, stated that the limousine had already made a left turn, had passed the Book Depository Building at the time that the first shot was fired.

In essence, then, the prosecution remained with the theory that Oswald, while acting alone, shot the President from the front from the back.

However,——

Mr. Rankin. I don't understand that.

Mr. Lane. I don't understand that either, but this was the theory of the prosecution—that the President had—it had been conceded at that time that the President had been shot in the front of the throat. However, the evidence then developed indicated that the Presidential limousine had already passed the Book Depository Building, and the President was not facing the Book Depository Building when the first shot was fired. At that time, Life magazine explains it all in a full page article entitled, "An End to Nagging Rumors, the 6 Crucial Seconds."

And Life conceded that the limousine was some 50 yards past Oswald when the first shot was fired, and that the shot entered the President's throat from the front, but explained that the President had turned completely around and was facing the Book Depository Building when the shot was fired.

But that theory, however, could not——

Mr. Rankin. Do you have the date of that article?

Mr. Lane. That was December 6, Life magazine. The full page article was entitled "End to Nagging Rumors, the Six Critical Seconds."

The problem——

Senator Cooper. May I ask a question there—just to clarify? Did you say that in this article that Life said that the late President had turned around and was facing the Book Depository Building when the shot was fired?

Mr. Lane. Yes, Senator. The trouble with that theory, however, which was enunciated by Life, and from where they secured it I do not know, but they certainly were in Dallas very much in evidence on the scene—was that the week prior to then Life magazine itself printed the stills of the motion pictures, and41 in those stills, with Life's own captions, it was quite plain that the President was looking almost completely forward, just slightly to the right, but almost forward, and certainly not turned around when the first shot was fired. And so the stills printed in Life's own publication a week before they enunciated this theory proved that the Life theory was false.

In addition to this, persons present on the scene, such witnesses as Mrs. Connally and the Governor of Texas, indicated that the President was looking almost straight ahead. And I believe that Mrs. Connally stated that she had just made a statement to the President, tragically enough, something about, "You cannot say the people of Dallas have not given you a warm welcome today," and he was about to respond when the first bullet struck him.

In order for the prosecution to remain with the theory in the light of the new evidence that Oswald was the assassin and he acted alone, something would have to give, and it became plain that the third try would have to result in a new examination of the medical testimony.

Mr. Dudman stated that the doctors at Parkland Hospital, who had, of course, this vital evidence to offer, were never questioned about the vital evidence by the FBI or by the Secret Service, and that it was not until after an autopsy had been performed at Bethesda, that two Secret Service agents, armed with that report, journeyed down to the Parkland Hospital and talked to the doctors, for the purpose of explaining to them that the new medical testimony and evidence indicated they were all in error at the outset. And, eventually, that was the position agreed to by the physicians, that they all had been in error when they stated that it was an entrance wound in the throat.

Physicians seem to agree that a short period of time after death, as a result of the deterioration of tissue, it is much more difficult to examine wounds to determine if they are entrance wounds or exit wounds.

In addition to this, according to Mr. Dudman in the Post Dispatch there had been an operation performed on what the doctors thought then was an entrance wound; therefore, it would seem altering the wound in the throat so that it would probably be more difficult to determine if it were an entrance or an exit wound, after the operation had been completed.

However, I do not know, of course, what is in the autopsy report—very likely you have seen that report—but portions of it, whether accurately or inaccurately, have been leaked to the public through the press. And the portion which has been leaked to the press, to the public through the press, in reference to the wound in the President's throat, indicated that the bullet struck the back of the President's head, and either a fragment of the bullet or a fragment of bone from the President's head exited at the throat.

If this were so, while it could explain perhaps the wound in the throat, it would be difficult to understand why this was not apparent to the doctors in the Parkland Hospital, particularly in view of the fact that it would indicate that the path of the bullet ran from the top of the head down to the throat, not from the throat down to the back of the chest, a very different path entirely.

And since Dr. Perry indicated that he inserted a tube into the President's throat following the bullet wound, it would be difficult to understand how he was not aware of the path of the bullet, when it was absolutely in the opposite direction from the one he thought it was in when he inserted the tube.

Most remarkable of all, though, is that if the bullet entered the top of the head, and a portion of it or a portion of bone exited from the throat, the collapse of the lungs and the frothing of air at the throat are both indications of a punctured lung—it would be difficult to explain by that particular bullet's path.

I think that an openminded investigating and prosecuting agency would have found, at the outset, in view of the medical evidence available at the outset, that the President was shot from the front while facing slightly to the right, and after passing the book depository building—an openminded investigating body in Dallas, the district attorney's office or the police, or others who were associated in that investigation, might have considered abandoning their theory that Oswald was the assassin and that he acted alone, and42 might have been led by the factual data to investigate in other areas as well—clearly something that they did not do.

I have been informed by reporters, for example, that—reporters from foreign countries covering the trial, that some of them were very concerned about the fact that they would now not be able to leave Dallas, that clearly the airports would be closed, there would be roadblocks placed on many of the streets, the trains would be stopped or searched, in order that the assassin or those who assisted him, or those who assisted the assassins, might be prevented from readily leaving the entire area.

I am informed by the reporters in the area that there were no such roadblocks, that planes continued to leave, trains continued to leave, and that the prosecution continued with its theory that Oswald was the assassin, that he acted alone, and they had secured his arrest, and there was nothing more to be done other than to prove as conclusively as possible, utilizing the press as we know, and the television, and the radio media for that purpose.

And while I am on this question, I wonder if I might ask the Commission to give consideration to—although I don't believe that it is present in any of the six panels which have been established by the Commission—but to give consideration nevertheless to the 48 hours in which Oswald was in custody, in reference to what happened to his rights as an American citizen, charged with a crime in this country.

The statement by the National Board of the American Civil Liberties Union, that had Oswald lived he could not have secured a fair trial anywhere in this country.

The Chairman. You may be sure, Mr. Lane, that that will be given most serious consideration by the Commission, and the Commission has already appointed as an act in that direction the President of the American Bar Association, with such help as he may wish to have, to make an investigation of that very thing. I assure you it will be done by the Commission.

Mr. Lane. Getting back to the evidence, Mr. Chief Justice, the spectator closest to President Kennedy, a Mrs. Hill, who was a substitute teacher in the Dallas public school system, stated to me that she was in her view the closest spectator to the President, and was standing alongside a Mary Moorman, who resides in Dallas.

Mr. Rankin. Do you have the date of this interview, Mr. Lane?

Mr. Lane. It was within the last week. She stated to me that she was the closest spectator to the President, she and her friend, when the President was struck by a bullet. She said that she heard some four to six shots fired.

Now, she was standing on the grass across the—across Elm Street, across from the Texas Book Depository Building. She said that in her—it is her feeling that all of the shots, the four to six shots, came from the grassy knoll near the triple overpass which was at that time directly in front and slightly to the right of the Presidential limousine, and that in her view none of the shots were fired from the Book Depository Building which was directly across the street from her, and which was to the rear of the Presidential limousine.

She said further that after the last shot was fired, she saw a man run from behind the general area of a concrete facade on that grassy knoll, and that he ran on to the triple overpass.

She told me that standing alongside of her was Mary Moorman, who took a picture of the President just a brief moment before the first shot was fired, and that agents of the Federal Bureau of Investigation took the film from Miss Moorman, and gave her a receipt, which she still has in her possession, but that she has not been able to see the picture, and that it is possible that the picture included the entire Book Depository Building, taken just precisely a second or less before the shots were fired.

Tom Wicker, who is a member of the New York Times White House staff, who was the only New York Times reporter in Dallas when the President was shot, stated in an article which appeared in the Saturday Review, on January 11, 1964, "As we came out of the overpass, I saw a motorcycle policeman drive over the curb, cross an open area, a few feet up a railroad bank, dismount, and start scrambling up the bank." Ronnie Dugger, who is the editor of the Texas Observer,43 a statewide publication in Texas, stated in his publication on November 29, 1963, and later stated to me in two different interviews material of the same nature.

I am now quoting from the publication:

"On the other side of the overpass a motorcycle policeman was roughriding across some grass to the trestle for the railroad tracks, across the overpass. He brought his cycle to a halt and leapt from it and was running up the base of the trestle when I lost sight of him."

Mr. Rankin. Can you give us the date of the paper that came from?

Mr. Lane. Yes. That was the Texas Observer, November 29, 1963. That statement has been confirmed by Mr. Dugger to me in two interviews in Dallas.

James Vachule, who is a reporter for the Fort Worth Star Telegram, said, "I heard the shots, several, at the triple overpass."

And Jerry Flemmons, reporting also for the Fort Worth Star Telegram, on November 22, 1963, stated, "Kennedy was gunned down by an assassin, apparently standing on the overpass above the freeway."

Now, I spoke to a Mary Woodward, who is an employee of the Dallas Morning News, and she stated that she was present with three coworkers, all employees of the Dallas Morning News, and they were standing near the—the base of the grassy knoll, perhaps 50 feet or so from the overpass, with the overpass to their right, and the book depository building to their left. And on November 23, 1963, the Dallas Morning News ran a story by Miss Woodward, and I have since that time spoken with Miss Woodward by telephone, and she has confirmed portions—the entire portion which I will quote from now—in her conversation with me.

That is, that as she and her three coworkers waited for the President to pass, on the grassy slope just east of the triple overpass, she explained that the President approached and acknowledged their cheers and the cheers of others, "he faced forward again, and suddenly there was an ear-shattering noise coming from behind us and a little to the right."

Here we have a statement, then, by an employee of the Dallas Morning News, evidently speaking—she indicated to me that she was speaking on behalf of all four employees, all of whom stated that the shots came from the direction of the overpass, which was to their right, and not at all from the Book Depository Building, which was to their left.

Miss Woodward continued, "Instead of speeding up the car, the car came to a halt. Things are a little bit hazy from this point, but I don't believe anyone was hit with the first bullet. The President and Mrs. Kennedy turned and looked around as if they, too, didn't believe the noise was really coming from a gun. Then after a moment's pause there was another shot, and I saw the President slumping in the car."

This would seem to be consistent with the statement by Miss Hill that more than three shots were fired.

In addition to these statements, James A. Chaney, who is a Dallas motorcycle policeman, was quoted in the Houston Chronicle on November 24, 1963, as stating that the first shot missed entirely. He said he was 6 feet to the right and front of the President's car, moving about 15 miles an hour, and when the first shot was fired. "I thought it was a backfire", he said.

Now, Miss Hill told me that when she was questioned—put that word unfortunately in quotation marks—by the U.S. Secret Service agents, that they indicated to her what her testimony should be, and that is that she only heard three shots. And she insisted that she heard from four to six shots. And she said that at least one agent of the Secret Service said to her, "There were three wounds and there were three shells, so we are only saying three shots." And they raised with her the possibility that instead of hearing more than three shots, that she might have heard firecrackers exploding, or that she might have heard echoes.

Despite this type of questioning by the Secret Service, Miss Hill continued to maintain, the last I spoke with her, about a week ago, that she heard from four to six shots.

Now, to the best of my knowledge, from my investigation, which has been very severely limited by lack of personnel and almost total lack of funds, and, therefore,44 is clearly not the kind of investigation which is required here—but from this limited investigation, it seems that only two persons immediately charged into the Texas Book Depository Building after the shots were fired. They were an officer of the Dallas Police Force, Seymour Weitzman, who submitted an affidavit to the Dallas police office, in which he stated that he discovered the rifle on the sixth floor of the Book Depository Building.

There was one other gentleman who ran into the building, and that was Roy S. Truly, who was and is, I believe, the director of the Book Depository Building.

However, Mr. Truly stated that he believed that the shots came from the direction of the overpass and from the grassy knoll. And although he was standing directly in front of the Book Depository Building, he did not believe that the shots came from that building.

Standing with him at the time of the assassination was O. V. Campbell, who was the vice president of the Book Depository Building.

In the Dallas Morning News on November 23, 1963, it was stated that "Campbell says he ran toward a grassy knoll to the west of the building where he thought the sniper had hidden."

So we have two persons that we know of standing in front of the Book Depository Building, and they both thought that the shots came from the grassy knoll near the overpass.

The police officer, Seymour Weitzman, submitted an affidavit to the Dallas district attorney's office, he and Mr. Truly, as I indicated a moment ago were the only two who charged into the Book Depository Building when the shots were fired.

Weitzman indicated in his affidavit—I assume you have the original of that affidavit—that he ran "in a northwest direction, scaled the fence toward where we thought the shots came from."

He indicated "then someone said they thought the shots came from the old Texas Building. I immediately ran to the Texas Building and started looking inside."

So even the two people who ran into the building indicated that they did not believe the shots came from the building.

Mr. Weitzman went into the building because someone whose name he did not give in his affidavit told him to go into the building, and then Truly explained that although he thought the shots came from the general direction of the grassy knoll or the overpass in front of the President's limousine, he saw this officer run into the building, of which he is a director, and he felt that since he knew the building and the officer did not, he should go in the building to assist the officer.

From published accounts, and from my investigation, I can only find one person who thought that the shots came from the building, and that was the Chief of Police in Dallas, Jesse Curry, who said as soon as the shots were fired, he knew they came from the building. From the Book Depository Building.

Now, of course, there were many persons present there whom I have not quoted, to whom I have no access.

Now, I spoke on several occasions with the reporter for the Fort Worth Star Telegram, whose name is Thayer Waldo. Mr. Waldo was standing with a police captain near the Dallas Trade Mart Building, which was the building, public building, where the President was going to have spoken that day. Mr. Waldo was awaiting his arrival, the President's arrival there, when a sergeant who was seated in a police cruiser called the captain over hurriedly to the police car. Mr. Waldo accompanied the captain to the police car. And Mr. Waldo stated to me that he heard the first bulletin which came over the Dallas police radio, and it was "Bulletin. The President has been shot. It is feared that others in his party have been wounded. The shots came from a triple overpass in front of the Presidential automobile."

So even the police, despite the Chief of Police's later assertion that he knew that the shots came from the Book Depository Building, behind the Presidential limousine, the first police radio broadcast indicated that it was the police position at that time that the shots came from the front, not from the rear.

Now, Patrolman Chaney, who I made reference to a little earlier, the motorcycle patrolman, stated that the Presidential car stopped momentarily after the45 first shot. That statement was consistent with Miss Woodward's statement in the Dallas Morning News, that the automobile came to almost a complete halt after the first shot, and the statement of many other witnesses as well.

Mr. Rankin. When was that statement made?

Mr. Lane. That statement appeared in the newspaper I made reference to before, the Houston Chronicle, on November 24, 1963.

Mr. Rankin. When you made an independent inquiry at any time, would you tell us, Mr. Lane?

Mr. Lane. Yes, I certainly shall do that.

Now, I think one has to conjecture as to why the Secret Service agent who was undoubtedly trained for this assignment, and particularly the agent who was driving the Presidential limousine in Dallas, where we were told that the greatest efforts ever to protect an American President were going to be made that day, because of the previous difficulties in Dallas, the attack upon our Ambassador to the United Nations and the attack upon the then Senator Johnson, when he spoke in Dallas in 1960—one would assume that the most qualified Secret Service driver that could be secured would be driving that automobile. It is difficult to understand why the automobile almost came to a complete stop after the first shot was fired, if the shots were coming from the rear. The natural inclination, it would seem, would be to step on the gas and accelerate as quickly as possible. However, if the driver were under the impression that the shots were from the front, one could understand his hesitation in not wanting to drive closer to the sniper or snipers.

In addition, however, Roy Kellerman, who was in the front right-hand seat of the automobile, who I am told was in charge of the Secret Service operation that day, the director of the Secret Service not being present in Dallas on that occasion—according to the pictures printed in Life magazine, Mr. Kellerman looked forward until the first shot was fired. Then he turned back, and looked at the President. He immediately looked forward again, and was looking in the direction of the overpass while the second shot was fired, and while the third shot was fired.

One would certainly expect that Mr. Kellerman was and is a trained observer, who would not panic in such a circumstance, for which he has received his training.

The pictures I make reference to are those in Life magazine which I referred to a little earlier in the afternoon.

Senator Cooper. May I ask a question there, Mr. Chief Justice?

The Chairman. Yes, go right ahead, Senator.

Senator Cooper. This last statement you made, about the Secret Service agent who turned, so that he was faced to the rear, toward the President, and then turned forward—I didn't quite understand what you deduced from that.

Mr. Lane. I assumed that he was looking toward the sound of the shots.

Senator Cooper. You mean when he turned to the rear, or turned ahead?

Mr. Lane. Well, when the President was shot, and was struck he then turned around, which I would imagine would be an ordinary response when somebody in an automobile with whom you are riding has been shot.

But immediately after that, before the second shot was fired, he turned completely to the front, and was looking at the overpass during the remainder of the time that the shots were fired. It would seem to indicate to me that it is possible that Mr. Kellerman felt that the shots were coming from the general direction in which he was looking.

Mr. Rankin. What do you base your statement on that the car stopped, the President's limousine?

Mr. Lane. The statement made by various witnesses, including Mr. Chaney, a motorcycle policeman, Miss Woodward, who was one of the closest witnesses to the President at the time that he was shot, and others. I think that is the—I haven't documented that beyond that, because that seemed to be so generally conceded by almost everyone, that the automobile came to—almost came to a complete halt after the first shot—did not quite stop, but almost did. And, of course, you have the films, I assume, of the assassination and know more about that than I do, certainly.

46 Now, in reference to the rifle, there is on file—I assume that you have it or copies of it—in the Dallas district attorney's office or the police office in Dallas, an affidavit sworn to by Officer Weitzman, in which he indicates that he discovered the rifle on the sixth floor of the Book Depository Building at, I believe, 1:22 p.m., on November 22, 1963.

Now, in this affidavit, Officer Weitzman swore that the murder weapon—that the weapon which he found on the sixth floor was a 7.65 Mauser, which he then went on to describe in some detail, with reference to the color of the strap, et cetera.

Now, the prosecuting attorney, of course, took exactly the same position, and for hours insisted that the rifle discovered on the sixth floor was a German Mauser, adding the nationality. A German Mauser is nothing at all like an Italian carbine. I think almost any rifle expert will indicate that that is so.

I have been informed that almost every Mauser—and I am not able to document this, unfortunately, but I am sure that you have easy access to rifle experts—that almost every German Mauser has stamped upon it the caliber, as does almost every Italian carbine.

Mr. Rankin. Do you know the difference between the two?

Mr. Lane. Do I know the difference?

Mr. Rankin. Yes.

Mr. Lane. I know the difference between an Army M-l and an American carbine—those are the only two weapons I fired—during the war. No, I don't know anything about rifles, other than those two rifles, which I used at one time.

I think it is most interesting to note that when Oswald was arrested we were informed immediately that he had an alias—his last name was Lee in that alias—as well as a great deal of material about his political background and activities on behalf of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee, and his defection to the Soviet Union, et cetera. But the alias was raised immediately.

The following day, on the 23d, when it was announced by the Federal Bureau of Investigation, that Oswald had purchased an Italian carbine, 6.5 millimeters, under the assumed name, A. Hidell, then for the first time the district attorney of Dallas indicated that the rifle in his possession, the alleged murder weapon, had changed both nationality and size, and had become from a German 7.65 Mauser, an Italian 6.5 carbine. And, further he indicated then for the first time that they knew of another alias maintained by Lee Oswald. In addition to the name Lee, which they discovered, they said, by going to the home where he lived—the house where he had lived in Dallas, where he rented a room, a rooming house, they discovered there he had secured the room under the name Lee. Mr. Wade stated that on Oswald's person, in his pocketbook, was an identification card made out to A. Hidell, and I have seen pictures of this reproduced in either Time magazine or Newsweek, or one of the weekly news magazines—I believe it was one or the other—with a picture of Oswald appearing on this card, plainly indicating that Oswald had the alias A. Hidell, to Mr. Wade.

I think it is interesting that the name Lee as an alias was released immediately, although some investigation was required to secure that alias. But the name A. Hidell, was not released as an alias, although that was present and obvious by mere search of Oswald's person when he was arrested.

Mr. Rankin. Can you give us the time of the release of the information about the alias, A. Hidell?

Mr. Lane. That was on November 23.

Mr. Rankin. And how about Lee?

Mr. Lane. November 22. The first release of the name A. Hidell came from the district attorney's office after the FBI had indicated that Oswald had purchased an Italian carbine under that name.

If I were permitted to cross-examine Mr. Wade, which evidently you have decided that I shall not be permitted to do, and Officer Weitzman, I would seek to find out how about the most important single element in probably this case or any other murder case, physical evidence, the murder weapon, in a case which I am sure is Mr. Wade's most important case—how he could be so completely in error about this.

47 Mr. Wade is a very distinguished prosecuting attorney, has been one for some 13 or 14 years, and I believe was an agent of the Federal Bureau of Investigation prior to that time.

I would like to know how he could have been so wrong about something so vital.

Now, assuming that the rifle found on the sixth floor was an Italian rifle, Italian carbine, one must wonder how it was possible for any number of things to happen for it to be fired there three times and strike the President in front of the throat, although he was past that building, and for the noise, according to the witnesses of the shooting, to have come from a different place entirely.

But in addition to that, one must wonder if that rifle is capable of the performance which the prosecuting authorities allege that it gave on that day. An Olympic rifle champion, Hubert Hammerer, said that he doubts that it could be done.

Mr. Rankin. Could you give us his address?

Mr. Lane. He is not in the United States. The story appeared in the New York Times. I don't have the exact date.

Representative Ford. What nationality is he?

Mr. Lane. I don't know.

Representative Ford. Do you know when he was Olympic champion?

Mr. Lane. No, I don't know that. I do know it probably was some time after the Italian carbine was manufactured, since it is an extremely old weapon, manufactured back in 1938, as I recall. There seems to be an agreement that the period of time was between 5 and 6 seconds from the first shot to the last shot.

There is a serious question in the minds, I think, of persons who have fired that pistol—that rifle—first of all, as to its ability to be fired that quickly accurately with a telescopic sight, and secondly, in reference to the ammunition which is available. Various persons have tested various lots of ammunition. Someone from the National Rifle Association told me that he tested more than 30 rounds, a little over 30 rounds of the Italian 6.5——

Mr. Rankin. When you refer to these people, will you tell us the names of any of them that you can? It might be of help to us.

Mr. Lane. I should remember this gentleman, because I just spoke with him. That is another name I am going to have to supply for you.

Mr. Rankin. Thank you.

Mr. Lane. He is a member of the board of directors of the National Rifle Association. He purchased for one of the television networks some 30 rounds, a little over 30 rounds, and told me that 20 of them did not fire at all, and 6 of them were guilty of hanged fire, which is a phrase I don't know anything about, but he tells me that means it did not fire fully, and, therefore, could not be accurate. Therefore, a very small percentage of the ammunition was of any value.

Mr. Ed Wallace talked about making a similar test in the New York World Telegram and Sun, in a feature article, and I think he said that he went with an expert, and they got 20 rounds of this ammunition, and of those 17 did not fire—only 3 fired. It was very old ammunition.

Representative Ford. Who is Ed Wallace, and who is the individual that Ed Wallace referred to? Do you have that information?

Mr. Lane. I believe Mr. Wallace indicated that he was present when the test was made. But it was an article appearing in the New York World Telegram and Sun within a week after the assassination—from the 23d to the 30th of November. And I can secure and mail to you a copy of that article, if you prefer.

While there may be some question as to whether or not a rifle expert could secure such performance from a rifle, or whether or not one could secure enough good ammunition to get such performance, I think there is general agreement that only in the hands of a rifle expert could one attempt to come close to that kind of shooting that it is alleged Oswald did on November 22.

The Times reported on November 23, "As Marines go, Lee Harvey Oswald was not highly regarded as a rifleman." And you have in your files, of course,48 the scorecard indicating Oswald's marksmanship or lack of marksmanship while in the Marine Corps.

In addition to that, you have the documents given to you by Marguerite Oswald, Lee Oswald's mother, which contained a scorecard maintained by Oswald while in the Marine Corps, showing his score in fast and slow shooting at various different yardages, in reference to both an M-l, as I recall, and an American carbine. Now, of course, it has been alleged on occasion that Mr. Oswald practiced with his rifle, on occasion, on weekends, at rifle ranges.

Mrs. Paine, with whom Lee Oswald's wife lived for the 2 month period preceding the assassination, and where Lee Oswald himself spent weekends for that 2 months period preceding the assassination, told me that Oswald could not have ever gone to a rifle range on a weekend, since she can account for his whereabouts during that entire 2 month period just preceding the assassination.

Mr. Rankin. Can you give us the day of that conversation with Mrs. Paine?

Mr. Lane. I have had about five conversations with her. The first one would be, oh, I believe, New Year's Day. I think that is the first time—this year—I believe that is the first time that she made the statement to me. She said she could account for Oswald's whereabouts during that 2 month period on weekends, from Friday late afternoon, when he left work in Dallas and arrived there in Irving, until early Monday morning.

She said the exception is during that time—she didn't watch him every moment, of course—there might be exceptions when she went shopping for half an hour, and he was left home to take care of the children, her two children, his children. But that unless he ran out quickly into the back yard with the rifle and shot and then quickly put the rifle away while caring for three children, or four children, that it would be impossible for him to practice with the rifle on weekends.

Since it has been alleged that the rifle was in the garage during the entire period of time, of course—that was in Irving, Tex., and he was in Dallas, Tex.—it would have been impossible for him to practice during the week while he was in Dallas, with that particular rifle.

Of course one must zero in a rifle in order to be even fairly accurate with it. One must practice with the specific weapon which one is going to use, in order to have any accuracy, in any event.

Now, I spoke with Dial M. Ryder, who is a gunsmith in Irving, Tex., at the Irving Sport Shop, and he told me that he mounted a telescopic sight on a rifle for a man named Oswald during October 1963.

Now, unfortunately, he does not recall—that is around the deer season, he informed me, and a lot of people are getting rifles fixed or repaired or sights mounted on them during that time in the Dallas-Irving area. And he does not recall, therefore, what this gentleman named Oswald looks like.

But he does know that a rifle was brought to him by someone whose name now appears in this record as Oswald, and that he drilled three holes in the rifle for a mount, telescopic mount. He said he had only seen three rifles which required three holes for telescopic mount—a 303 British Enfield, a 303 American Springfield army surplus rifle, or an Eddystone, which is also an American rifle. He said, therefore, he did not attach a telescopic sight to the Italian carbine, because he would have only drilled two holes.

His employer, I think his name is Greener, he told me, checked with all the Oswalds they could find in the Irving area after this matter came to their attention, and could not find anyone in that area—and they called some people in Dallas also named Oswald—could not find anyone named Oswald who brought the rifle in to him.

I talked to Milton Klein, who is the owner of Klein's sporting goods store in Chicago—Klein's Sporting Goods is the name of the establishment, in Chicago.

Mr. Rankin. When was this?

Mr. Lane. I spoke with him within the last 2 or 3 days. And he told me that—he runs the mail-order house which sent the carbine, Italian carbine, to Dallas, not to Oswald, but to A. Hidell, and that he sent that out with the holes already bored in the Italian carbine, and equipped with a telescopic sight which was already attached to the rifle.

49 Aguto Marcelli, who is a correspondent for an Italian publication which appears physically very much to be like Life magazine, called Leuropeo, stated to me that he had spoken with Mr. Klein, and Mr. Klein told him that the FBI—"The FBI warned me to keep my trap shut."

Mr. Rankin. When was this?

Mr. Lane. He told me this about 2 weeks ago. When I spoke with Mr. Klein, about 3 days ago, 2 or 3 days ago, he indicated that he did not want to discuss any aspect of this matter with me. And I asked him if that was because he was told not to talk with anyone about this case, and he said yes.

And I said, "Who told you that?"

He said, "The FBI agents told me, ordered me not to discuss this case."

I pointed out to him that if he did not wish to discuss the case with me, I would not force him to. There was no way that he would be compelled to answer any of the questions that I asked him. But, however, in our democratic society, the FBI cannot order anyone not to discuss a case, and that such an order to him was not a valid order, if he wanted to discuss the case with me—he could.

So he did. And he told me what I informed you—that the FBI told him not to discuss the case, and that he mailed this rifle with the holes already bored and with the telescopic sight already mounted to someone named A. Hidell.

He also said that "No ammunition was purchased from me by Hidell at that time or since."

Senator Cooper. Mr. Chairman, may I ask a question?

The Chairman. Yes, sir.

Senator Cooper. Did he name any person with the FBI who told him not to discuss the case?

Mr. Lane. No; he did not.

Senator Cooper. Can you identify—did he identify him in any way?

Mr. Lane. He did not identify him. Earlier, perhaps before you arrived, Senator, I made reference to a statement made by Mrs. Hill, who was told by the Secret Service—I think perhaps you were here—that only three shots were fired. And I asked her specifically if she could identify that Secret Service agent, and she told me that she could not, there was such tremendous confusion at that time, there were so many agents of the FBI and Secret Service that she spoke to, that she did not think she could. But possibly if she saw him, she might be able to recognize him.

I didn't go any further into that question, however, with Mr. Klein. He seemed very reluctant to discuss that entire area—to discuss anything, but particularly that area.

I read in the Dallas Times Herald, on November 25, 1963, the statement made by Mr. Wade, when asked what they had tying Oswald to the "crime of the century" and his response was, according to the Dallas Times Herald, "If I had to single out any one thing, it would be the fingerprints on the rifle, and the book cartons which he used to prop the weapon on."

On the same day the World Telegram and Sun reported "Federal authorities have concluded that no readable print was found on the murder weapon when it was flown to Washington for laboratory studies."

There were certain leaks that a fingerprint or a palm print was discovered on the bolt of the rifle. If that is so, it would be remarkable if it were a print belonging to anyone other than Captain Fritz of the Homicide Squad in Dallas, because according to the affidavit signed by Officer Weitzman, who discovered the weapon, and I am quoting now from the affidavit on file—at that time on file with the district attorney's office, "The time the rifle was found was 1:22 p.m. Captain Fritz took charge of the rifle, and ejected one live round from the Chamber. I then went back to the office after this."

Now, you know if you have worked with that rifle that the—on most Italian carbines that bolt is not worked too easily. One really has to grab a hold of it and pull back. It would be unusual if a fingerprint belonging to someone other than the person who did that survived.

The first statement made by Mr. Wade in reference to the taxi driver who he alleged—he, Wade, alleged took Oswald generally from this scene, indicated that the driver's name was Daryl Click.

50 Now, that statement was not made in the first hours of the arrest. That statement was not made until after Chief Curry had announced to the press in Dallas, on that day, November 24th that the case was closed, there would be no further investigation—Oswald was the assassin, he had acted alone, he was then dead. And as a result of the change in policy, to reopen the case and have Mr. Wade assume a position in front of the radio and television microphones and cameras of the Nation, on that evening November 24, Mr. Wade then presented what he said was the evidence "for you piece by piece." And part of the evidence which he had secured was the proof that a taxi driver named Daryl Click drove Oswald roughly from the scene to his home, to Oswald's home.

When I was in Dallas—I suppose this was on January 2d, my first trip there in reference to this matter—I spoke with a Mr. Roseboro of the Teamsters Union—they have organized the taxi drivers in Dallas—and asked him if he knew—if he could give me any information about a Daryl Click. He said he did not have the name in his files, but Texas being a right-to-work law State, it is possible, he said, that Mr. Click was a driver but not a member of that union. He referred me to the personnel department of the City Transportation Co., which he told me was the one company monopoly running all the taxis in Dallas.

I spoke with the City Transportation Co. personnel office, Mr. Pott, as I recalled, who checked the records, and indicated to me that there was no Daryl Click who drove a taxi in Dallas.

Some time after Mr. Wade stated that Daryl Click was the taxi driver, he then stated that a person by the name of William Whaley was the taxi driver who took Oswald from the scene after he left the bus to his home.

It is therefore alleged by the prosecution that Oswald, after firing upon the Presidential limousine, walked the entire floor from the front of the Book Depository Building to the rear of the warehouse, almost to the extreme rear, where he hid the rifle, where it was found, and then took the stairs at the rear of the Book Depository Building and walked down four flights, until he arrived at the second floor, and then he walked to the Coca-Cola machine, which was at the front of the building, meaning he crossed the entire warehouse floor again, and he purchased a Coca-Cola, and was sipping it when a police officer arrived with a gun drawn, questioned him briefly. Mr. Truly explained to the officer that Oswald worked there. And eventually Oswald left the building, boarded a bus, then walked, after leaving the bus—walked two blocks and entered Mr. Whaley's taxi, at exactly 12:30, according to Mr. Whaley. The shots that killed the President were fired at 12:31.

Now, there is on file in the district attorney's office—I assume you have the original or copies of it—a report of a paraffin test taken of Oswald, of both his hands and his face. The test proved, according to Mr. Curry, and the statement that he made on Saturday, November 23, to the press that Oswald had fired the murder weapon. However, a reading of the test indicates that one could come to a very different conclusion.

The test in reference to the face proved negative, indicating that Oswald had not fired a rifle on November 22, 1963—although the test on the hands showed positive—indicating, according to the person who did the analysis, the kinds of patterns consistent with one having fired a revolver. That was the statement on the test taken and conducted by a Louis L. Anderson, on November 23, 1963, by the Dallas City County Crime Investigation Laboratory.

Now, it has, of course, been alleged that after Oswald shot the President and took a bus and a taxi, and went home and got a jacket, he then shot and killed Officer Tippit. The affidavit in the district attorney's office indicates that a person saw a stopped police car, walked up to the police car, leaned on it with his arms on the window, or what would be a windowsill or window ledge of the automobile, and then stepped back a step or two, the officer came out, and this person shot Officer Tippit to death.

The affidavit is peculiarly sparse in reference to the description of the assailant, the man who killed Tippit, by an eyewitness who said she was just 50 feet away.

Her description of this person is found in two different portions of the51 affidavit—he was young, white, male, and that is the entire description present in the affidavit at that time.

I spoke with the deponent, the eyewitness, Helen Louise Markham, and Mrs. Markham told me—Miss or Mrs., I didn't ask her if she was married—told me that she was a hundred feet away from the police car, not the 50 feet which appears in the affidavit. She gave to me a more detailed description of the man who she said shot Officer Tippit. She said he was short, a little on the heavy side, and his hair was somewhat bushy. I think it is fair to state that an accurate description of Oswald would be average height, quite slender, with thin and receding hair.

Helen Markham said to me that she was taken to the police station on that same day, that she was very upset, she of course had never seen anyone killed in front of her eyes before, and that in the police station she identified Oswald as the person who had shot Officer Tippit in the lineup, including three other persons. She said no one pointed Oswald out to her—she was just shown four people, and she picked Oswald.

She said—when I asked her how she could identify him—she indicated she was able to identify him because of his clothing, a gray jacket and dark trousers. And this was the basis for her identification—although Oswald physically does not meet the description which she indicated.

Representative Ford. When did you have this conversation with the deponent?

Mr. Lane. Within the last 5 days.

Representative Ford. Some time in late February 1964?

Mr. Lane. Or perhaps even early March, yes, sir.

Now, I inquired—I told her that I was coming here today, and that I was completing my investigation as Oswald's lawyer, and asked her if she would discuss the matter with me, and she said she would.

I asked her if anyone had asked her not to discuss this matter with me. At first she seemed reluctant, and she said she was reluctant because I called her at her place of employment, the Eat Well Cafe in Dallas. I tried her at home many times before then, but her phone was always busy. I believe it is a phone which is not her personal one, but is a common phone shared by others in the building where she resides.

I apologized for calling her at her place of employment. And she seemed reluctant to talk to me. I asked if anyone had asked her not to talk about this case with anyone. She said yes, she had been told by the FBI, by Secret Service agents, and by Dallas police, all three groups, not to discuss anything in relation to this case, and that by and large she had not.

I told her that somewhere it occurred to me that I had seen an article in a newspaper in which she described the assailant of Oswald as short, stocky, and with bushy hair—I'm sorry, the assailant of Tippit—as being short, stocky, with bushy hair. And she said she did talk to a reporter, she thinks, for one of the Dallas newspapers, the Dallas Times-Herald or the Dallas Morning News—but that is the only time she talked to anybody.

I would like to call to the Commission's attention the entire brief narrative of the entire case, as presented by the district attorney's office at this point, or at least on the 24th, because it seems to me to be so full of incredible happenings, that it would be very difficult to submit such a story to a jury by a prosecution generally.

If everything that the prosecution in this case says is true, one must conclude that Oswald behaved in a very, very unusual manner from the beginning to the end.

He decided on Thursday, November 21, that he was going to assassinate the President, and so he decided to go back to Irving, Tex., to secure a rifle there, in order to carry out that purpose. He had on his person some $13 when arrested, and almost $150 in cash in the top drawer of his dresser—so we can assume that on Thursday, the 21st, he had roughly that amount of money present.

One can purchase a rifle for less than $13 in many stores in Dallas. There is no question about that. By using a small portion of that $150, he could have purchased a rifle absolutely superior to the Italian carbine at home in Irving in many respects. And there are gun magazines which have had editorials52 dwelling on this question, saying that if Oswald did it with this weapon, and they do not move into the question of whether or not he did, it was an absolute miracle, because no one who knew anything about rifles would have chosen such a decrepit, worthless rifle, as this Italian carbine, manufactured in 1938, for which there is such pure ammunition. There are a series, I believe, of editorials in gun magazines proving that Oswald, I think, as a matter of pride, from a sportsman's viewpoint—that Oswald was in no way associated with weapons and did not belong in that category, because he could not have chosen such a weapon.

Representative Ford. Could you give us the citations of one of these magazines?

Mr. Lane. Yes. One is called Gun Magazine. I do not recall the names. But that is one of them. I am sure there was such an editorial in that one. I will get the other one and mail those to you also.

But I think there would have to be a more compelling reason for Oswald not to go home and get that particular inferior rifle if he decided on Thursday to kill the President. That was the only rifle in the whole world probably that could be traced to him. One can purchase a rifle in almost any community in this country, certainly in Dallas, without any notoriety attaching to it, without giving one's name or address, or having a serial number attached to a receipt kept by a store indicating who owns that particular rifle.

But here we have Oswald going home to get an inferior rifle, which rifle is the only rifle in the whole world which can be traced to him, which rifle he is going to leave behind as a calling card after the assassination is complete.

And so he goes home to Irving, Tex., and he gets this rifle, and he wraps it up in paper, we are told, and brings it in to the Book Depository Building.

Now, the rifle can be broken down, I believe, from examining other Italian carbines. But it would be not much shorter if it was broken down—perhaps 6 or 7 inches shorter. Evidently, though, he did not do that.

So he took this rifle into the book depository building, which I suggest, gentlemen, is a most remarkable thing. This was going to be the greatest series of precautions in the history of the United States to protect an American President. As we know now, and suspected then, with very good reason, because of the nature of what had gone before, with reference to public officials in Dallas—and here we have a man who has defected to the Soviet Union, who has married a Russian national, active on behalf of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee, we see a discharge less than honorable from the U.S. Marine Corps, who was working in the building exactly on the Presidential route. Not only is it on the Presidential route, but it is the building where the automobile is going to have to clearly slow down because of the sharp turn, sharp left turn, made right in front of the building.

And despite all of these precautions—and I have been informed that there were serious precautions taken in Dallas on that day by the Dallas police and by others, and that persons who did no more publicly, who did no more ever politically than to publicly speak in favor of school integration, were followed that day as potential assassins in Dallas.

Nevertheless, Oswald, with that background, is permitted to walk into the Book Depository Building, directly on the Presidential route, carrying with him in his hand a full rifle.

Mr. Rankin. Can you tell us the information on which you base this, about anyone who merely spoke about school integration?

Mr. Lane. Yes. A reporter for the Dallas Morning News told me that, told me he was absolutely certain that was so. But before revealing his name, I am going to have to call him and indicate I am going to do that. I will be happy to do that. I am glad you are interested in that matter, because I think it is a most important one.

I suggest that the Federal Bureau of Investigation knew that Oswald worked at the Texas Book Depository Building, which was on the Presidential route. An FBI agent by the name of Hosty visited the home of the Paines in Irving, Tex., sometime during September and October. He visited that home on more than one occasion. Each of the at least two times that he was there, possibly three but I am not certain—but I was told he was there two times—I know I was told by Mrs. Paine in the presence of her husband, Michael Paine, that Agent Hosty was there at least on two occasions—each time he was there he asked53 where Oswald was. Mrs. Paine explained to Agent Hosty, she told me, that Oswald lived there only on weekends, and that during the week Agent Hosty could find him at his room in Dallas, where he stayed during the week, or during the daytime could find him at the Texas Book Depository Building, where he was an employee. Nevertheless—and that Oswald would not be found in Irving, Tex. at the Paine's home during the week. Nevertheless, Agent Hosty returned again at least one more time to the Paine home in Irving, during the week, during the day, I believe—certainly during the week—and again asked about Oswald, and again Mrs. Paine told him that he worked at the Book Depository Building, he would not be there, she said, "As we told you last time he won't be here during the week. During the daytime during the week you can find him at his job at the Book Depository Building, and during the nighttime during the week you can find him at his rooming house in Dallas."

Mr. Rankin. Did she tell you whether she told him where the rooming house was?

Mr. Lane. I do not believe I asked her that question, and I don't believe she mentioned that.

Well, to go back to the prosecution narrative, or narrative according to the facts presented by the prosecution, Oswald was on the sixth floor, fired at the Presidential limousine, not as the automobile approached the building, when the automobile came extremely close to the building, so close that possibly even with that weapon one could have shot occupants of the automobile from that window—but it is alleged that Oswald never shot—it is now alleged that Oswald never shot when the automobile was right outside of the building, but fired when the automobile was some 75 yards beyond the building, when the first shot was fired.

Then Oswald walked the entire floor—or ran—the entire floor of the warehouse to the rear of the building, placing the rifle in between some boxes, but visible, so that one can see it when one arrives on the floor; went to the rear stairs, walked down the four flights to the second floor, then to the front of the building again, where he purchased a Coca-Cola—made no effort to leave the building at that time, evidently was going to wait until the building was surrounded by police before leaving.

He stayed at the top of the stairs near the Coke machine long enough so that a police officer could come up and place a pistol near him, and Roy Truly, the director, then intervened indicating that Mr. Oswald was employed at the building at that time, and the officer then went on to do other things in the building, including later on, I believe, to find the rifle, if it was the same officer.

Mr. Truly stated that Oswald was quite calm when the officer approached him on the stairs. He said although he did seem a little concerned about that pistol being stuck at him—but otherwise he seemed quite calm at that time.

Well——

Representative Ford. Where was this statement made, or testimony given?

Mr. Lane. By Truly?

Representative Ford. Yes.

Mr. Lane. This was reported very widely in probably dozens or scores of newspapers. The New York Times carried that, as did many other publications—direct quotations from Truly who was interviewed.

Then the next thing we heard from the prosecution in their opening or closing statement to the television cameras, after Oswald was killed was that—the next we hear of Oswald he was on a bus. Well, if Oswald boarded the bus where the busdriver claims he did, then Oswald walked a distance, in order to secure a bus which is going to take him directly back to the Book Depository Building, which one would think he was trying to flee after assassinating the President.

I would refer you to his story by Hugh Ainsworth in the Dallas Morning News published during the first week after the assassination. Hugh Ainsworth and Larry Grove published on November 28 in the Dallas Morning News—this is headed "Oswald Planned To Ride By Scene"—in which there are statements from the busdriver that—named C. J. McWatters, in which Mr. McWatters indicates that Oswald entered the bus at Elm and Griffin, and further indicates that the bus was going to go seven blocks further west and turn at Houston Street, exactly the scene of the assassination, or at least the scene of the Texas Book54 Depository. So Oswald traveled somehow some seven blocks in order to secure a bus which is going to take him back to the place that he left.

Now, although I have talked to Mr. Ainsworth, and he tells me that the story is absolutely correct, and he questioned Mr. McWatters quite thoroughly, and he will so testify, I believe, if he is asked—Mr. Ainsworth will—and the affidavit which Mr. McWatters signed, or which the busdriver signed, he does not state that Oswald walked seven blocks and was going to get on a bus which was going to take him back. Indeed, he states that he picked him up about Elm and Houston Street, at the Book Depository Building. But the busdriver indicates that that story in his affidavit is not true. He indicated that after the affidavit was drawn and signed by him.

Mr. Rankin. What did you say was not true, Mr. Lane—which part of it?

Mr. Lane. The affidavit. Mr. McWatters indicates that the affidavit in which—let me start that again.

There is an affidavit from the busdriver, which I am sure you have, which shows that according to his statement Oswald came into the bus at Elm and Houston Street. However, the busdriver since that time has indicated that Oswald came into the bus seven blocks from Elm and Houston Street, and had entered a bus which was going to take him to Elm and Houston Street. Elm and Houston Street of course is the location of the Book Depository Building.

Mr. Rankin. Now, when you say since that time he has indicated that, you mean to you or to someone else?

Mr. Lane. To those two reporters for the Dallas Morning News with whom I discussed—one of them—I discussed this specifically. And he said that every word in that story is absolutely accurate, that he went to see the busdriver, and had a prolonged interview with him, and went over this in great detail with him. I think these two reporters will testify as to what the busdriver told them in their interview with him.

Mr. Rankin. But they have not published this later story that you are telling about.

Mr. Lane. Yes, they have. That is the date that I gave you. The Dallas Morning News, on Thursday, November 28, under the headline "Oswald Planned To Ride By Scene".

Mr. Rankin. Do you want to leave that with us?

Mr. Lane. I wonder if copies can be made of everything.

Mr. Rankin. Yes.

Mr. Lane. Then I will be happy to leave it.

Mr. Rankin. The story you were just referring to in the Dallas Morning News is Commission Exhibit 343.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 343 for identification and received in evidence.)

Mr. Lane. That's correct.

Well, now, Oswald allegedly had shot the President and has walked some, talked to an officer, was calm, walked some seven blocks to find a bus which was going to take him back to where he left, and then got off and got—entered into a taxi after he had walked some two blocks from where he left the bus. And this taxi he entered of course a minute before the President was shot, if the taxi driver's log is accurate—after Oswald had done all these things, after allegedly shooting the President and the Governor.

Then the taxi driver drove him directly past his own home, according to the statement and—past Oswald's Dallas rooming house, until he arrived at a scene about a half a mile beyond Oswald's house, where Oswald then left the taxi, and then walked or ran home to secure a jacket—leaving behind, although one would assume he is now giving considering to escaping, the $150 in the dresser drawer, and taking just his jacket with him.

Mr. Rankin. Which dresser drawer?

Mr. Lane. This is in Dallas.

Mr. Rankin. Not at the Paine's?

Mr. Lane. Not at the Paine's. I do not know if there was money at the Paine's, but if he had money there, he left that behind the night before, knowing he was going to——

55 Mr. Rankin. But the $150 you are speaking of was in his rooming house at Dallas.

Mr. Lane. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Do you have any affidavit or information in support of that statement about the $150?

Mr. Lane. I do not have an affidavit. I have the statement of a reporter who was told that—he was told this by a police officer who was present when the money was found in the Dallas rooming house. I have his statement. I can again ask for his permission to release that.

Mr. Rankin. Would you do that, please.

Mr. Lane. Yes, sir.

Senator Cooper. Mr. Chairman—perhaps it has been done, but I think it would be proper in all cases in which he has referred to conversations that he has had with individuals who made statements to him about some aspect of this matter, and whose names he has not identified, that if he could give to the Commission in all of those cases the names of the individuals who gave him this information.

Mr. Lane. Yes, sir.

Senator Cooper. I mean at sometime—don't you think?

Mr. Rankin. Yes, sir, it would be very helpful.

Mr. Lane. Yes, sir. I think there are only two occasions where I indicated I had to check the source, and one is the name of the rifle association board member whose name I will be happy to give to you, but I just do not recall it—my office has that.

Senator Cooper. I did not remember that you gave the name of this individual who told you that some policeman had told him that he had been present when the $150 was found.

Mr. Lane. Yes; that is one.

Senator Cooper. Did you give that name?

Mr. Lane. No; I did not give that name.

Mr. Rankin. You said you were going to ask him his permission.

Mr. Lane. Yes; that's correct.

Then Oswald took a taxi, which took him approximately a half mile beyond his own house, his own room in Dallas, and he either walked or ran back to get his jacket—although it was a very warm day in Dallas. That day Mrs. Kennedy said later on that, reviewing the moment before the President was shot—she said she saw this overpass ahead and looked forward to being under it for a moment because there would be some brief shade to protect them from the powerful sun that day.

Well, Oswald ran home to get his jacket. He left the house, saw a police car parked, went up to the police car, according to the affidavit of Mrs. Markham, leaned on the car, and when the officer came out, he shot him to death, and then he went to the movies. And in the movies, and just before he went into the Texas Theatre, he was so extremely agitated that a gentleman on the outside of the theatre—I think his name is John Brewer—I am not certain—you have that affidavit, I am sure—indicated that Oswald was acting very agitated, the cashier made the same statement, and changing from seat to seat. The police were called and he was arrested.

Of course, one would wonder why Oswald, who might have thought that he had made his getaway while in the Texas Theatre unobserved, would become so extremely agitated, when just a moment after he allegedly shot the President and the Governor, with the policeman charging up the stairs, pointing a pistol at him, about to arrest him for these two terrible crimes, he was calm, according to Mr. Truly, but he became agitated only when he thought he had secured his getaway.

I think those of us who saw, as we all did, I guess, Oswald on television in his brief appearance would conclude that he seemed, even while in custody and charged with these two crimes, somewhat calm under the circumstances—calm when charged with the assassination, calm a moment after killing the President, when a policeman pointed a pistol at him, but agitated only in the theatre, and just before going to the theatre when he might have concluded that he was then in the clear.

56 I would just like to conclude on this note.

I hope the Commission will give consideration to my request, which the Commission has answered, but which again I would like at this time to renew. That is, that I be permitted, at the request of Mrs. Oswald, the mother of the accused defendant, really, before this Commission's hearing, to represent his interests here, to have access to the material which you have access to, and the right to present witnesses.

It is not usual for an attorney representing a party to be given an opportunity to testify, which is quite unusual—but rather to be given the opportunity to present witnesses and to cross-examine them. It has generally been my role in criminal cases. Never before have I testified in behalf of a client.

If it is the Commission's position that this is not a trial in any respect, and therefore Oswald is not entitled to counsel, that is the position with which I would like to respectfully offer a dissent.

The fact that Oswald is not going to have a real trial flows only from his death, and he is not responsible with that having taken place. Every right belonging to an American citizen charged with a crime was taken from him up to and including his life.

I think now that that episode is completed, hopefully never to reappear ever again in our history, or anything close to it—I think it would be proper to permit him to have counsel before the Commission, counsel who can function on his behalf in terms of cross-examining evidence and presenting witnesses. If it is the Commission's position now that he is entitled to counsel, and the Commission will appoint counsel, then I ask the Commission to consider that the Constitutional right to counsel involves the right to counsel of one's choice, or in the event of the death of a party, to counsel of the choice of the surviving members of the family.

If Marina Oswald, the widow, sought to have counsel represent her husband I would think—here—I would think that would cause a conflict and a problem, if the widow and also the mother made the same request. But as I understand it no request has been made by the widow, who has indicated to the press that she believes her husband is guilty, and through her former business agent, Mr. Martin, who I am told was secured for her by the Secret Service as a business agent, she indicated that even a trial which might prove he was innocent, she would still be sure he was guilty, and has indicated since that time no desire to my knowledge to secure counsel for her husband, her late husband, before the Commission.

I think, then, the mother would, in almost any jurisdiction, be the next person to make a decision in this area, and the mother has made a decision, as you know. She has retained me to represent the rights and interests of her son.

I think under those circumstances it would be proper for the Commission to permit me to participate.

This, of course, is not a jury trial. With all due respect to the integrity and background of each of the members of the Commission, I suggest that it is not the function of the trying body to appoint counsel, or the jury to appoint counsel, but in our society it is just the reverse; it is the function of defense counsel to participate in determining who the jury should be.

Many criminal lawyers, very noted counsel, would probably seek to excuse certain—and again no disrespect at all is meant to the background of members of this Commission—but defense counsel generally seeks to excuse as jurors those who are in any way associated with the Government in a criminal case. And here we have the Government appointing the jury, and then the jury picking counsel, who also is Government connected at this time. I in no way wish to raise the question of the integrity of any of the members of the Commission or counsel or anyone else, or their ability. But that truism about equality has some meaning in terms of impartiality—everyone is impartial to some people, and more impartial to other people. And counsel, in order to function, I believe, must be totally independent and totally committed to the responsibility of representing his client.

57 But above all, he must be secured by someone who has the ability to speak for the deceased, in this case his mother and his wife. And under those circumstances, I renew my request that I be permitted to, at the request of Lee Oswald's mother, who survives him—to function before this Commission as counsel on his behalf.

The Chairman. Mr. Lane, I must advise you that the Commission, as you already know, has considered your request and has denied it. It does not consider you as the attorney for Lee Oswald. Now, this is not for any discussion. We are not going to argue it. You have had your say, and I will just answer.

Lee Oswald left a widow. She is his legal representative. She is represented by counsel. This Commission is cooperating with her in any way she may request. If anyone else wants to present any evidence to this Commission, they may do so. But it is the view and the wish—the will of the Commission—that no one else shall be entitled to participate in the work and the deliberations of the Commission.

We asked you to come here today because we understood that you did have evidence. We are happy to receive it. We want every bit of evidence that you have. You may present anything that you wish to us. But you are not to be a participant in the work of the Commission. I assume you have some questions you would like to ask Mr. Lane, Mr. Rankin?

Mr. Rankin. Yes, sir. Do you have any affidavits that you would like to submit to the Commission? I understood at one time you had some affidavits.

Mr. Lane. Well, I do have some affidavits. They are not originals—they are photostatic copies of affidavits taken by the Dallas police and on file in the Dallas district attorney's office. Now—including the paraffin test which I made reference to.

Now, if the Commission does not have copies of those, I would like to be so informed and I will see what I can do. I assume the Commission has copies of all those documents.

Mr. Rankin. Yes. Do you have anything beyond that that you care to submit?

Mr. Lane. I have the various statements which I have made reference to from Mrs. Hill and Mrs. Markham, Mr. Klein, Mr. Ryder. But I have given you the essence of those statements. If you are interested in pursuing that, I think it might be best to call them.

Mr. Rankin. I am interested if there was anything beyond what you have given us, Mr. Lane. And if you say you have given us the substance, then I take it that is complete as far as it could be of assistance to us, except our going directly to the witness. Is that what you have in mind?

Mr. Lane. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Now, do you have any witnesses that you would like to present for the Commission?

Mr. Lane. Well, I would like—I do not know that I would be able to do that, frankly.

Mr. Rankin. Well, would you have any that you suggest that we should interview, bring before the Commission, that you have not presented up to this time in your testimony?

Mr. Lane. No; there is no one who I know of other than those names I have given, and two other persons whose permission I am going to have to secure in reference to other matters, and hopefully they will be willing to not only allow their names to be used, but to come forward and testify, if you wish to hear them.

Mr. Rankin. Now, is there any documentary evidence beyond which you have submitted that you would like to submit to the Commission?

Mr. Lane. Not beyond what I have submitted or made reference to.

Mr. Rankin. In regard to the paraffin that you have referred to, do you have any particular materials or anything you want to refer the Commission to?

Mr. Lane. To that particular test taken by Mr. Anderson on November 23d?

Mr. Rankin. Anything beyond that?

Mr. Lane. No; not at this time.

Mr. Rankin. Now, I understand at one time you referred to some meeting in the Carousel Club a week or so before the assassination. Do you have any material on that or any information?

58 Mr. Lane. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Is there anything you would care to present to the Commission?

Mr. Lane. Yes. I have been informed—and this is the source I will have to check with again in order to secure his testimony——

Mr. Rankin. You will advise us if you are permitted to.

Mr. Lane. Yes. But I can tell you the substance—that a meeting took place on November 14, 1963, in the Carousel Club between Officer Tippit and Bernard Weissman, Mr. Weissman being the gentleman who placed a full-page advertisement in the Dallas Morning News which was printed on November 22, asking a series of questions of President Kennedy. It was addressed "Welcome to Dallas, President Kennedy. Why have you traded the Monroe Doctrine for spirit of Moscow. Why has Gus Hall and the Communist Party endorsed your 1964 election" and such matter. I think these two give a rather clear indication of the kind of advertisement that it was. And I have been informed that Mr. Weissman and Officer Tippit and a third person were present there. I have been given the name of the third person. But for matters which I will make plain to the Commission, I will be pleased to give you the name of the third person as given to me, but not in the presence of the press. I would rather do that in executive session—that one piece of testimony.

The Chairman. That is satisfactory to do that, if you wish.

Mr. Lane. Thank you, sir.

Mr. Rankin. Is there anything else about that incident that you know and want to tell the Commission at this time?

Mr. Lane. No.

The Chairman. That is the entire story, is it?

Mr. Lane. That they were there for more than 2 hours conferring—these three persons.

The Chairman. Your information does not—is not to the effect as to what they were conferring on.

Mr. Lane. No; they did not hear that.

Mr. Rankin. I am not suggesting, Mr. Lane, that you have been selective about what you have told the Commission and what you have not told, but I do wish to make the inquiry as to whether there is any information you might have that the Commission should be informed of as to other people that you might have interviewed in regard to this matter.

Mr. Lane. I have given the Commission at this time everything that I know.

Mr. Rankin. Is there anything about the palm prints that you can tell us in addition to what you have given us?

Mr. Lane. Not in addition to what I have said.

Mr. Rankin. Well, I will ask you generally—is there anything in addition to what you have said that you would like to tell the Commission at this time that has any bearing upon this investigation?

Mr. Lane. All I can say in reference to that, Mr. Rankin, is that I am practically engaged in this project by myself, which means I am extremely limited. This is not my profession—investigator. I am an attorney. And there are many leads which I have followed, which have led me nowhere at all, obviously. Before finding Mrs. Markham or before finding Mrs. Hill, there were many other persons I talked to who were not even present, who I have heard were present. But there are still large numbers, probably at this point hundreds of leads which I have heard of, and which I have not yet been able to trace or to check through. I do not think it would be constructive just to tell you all of the things I have heard, because most of them are patently untrue, and they just require a great deal of work. But I will continue to do that, and should I come across any material which might in any way interest you, I will certainly either write to you for the purpose of presenting it to you through the mail in affidavit form, if you prefer, or indicate that I will be available to come and testify again if you prefer that.

The Chairman. Mr. Lane, your client, Mrs. Marguerite Oswald, when she was testifying before us, told us that she had sold some pictures to the press and she wanted the originals of all the pictures that she presented to us, because she said they were of great financial value to her. Do you know what sales she has made concerning pictures such as you have shown us?

59 Mr. Lane. In terms of the picture with the rifle, you mean, for example?

The Chairman. Well, we might start with that.

Mr. Lane. She has never seen such a picture, she has informed me, of Lee Harvey Oswald with the rifle—except after they had been published. She never had any knowledge of such pictures, and had never seen them.

I do not really represent Marguerite Oswald. She has retained me to represent the interests of her son. And so in her business dealings in terms of her sale of pictures and articles, I have not represented her. I believe she has a literary agent or perhaps even another lawyer—I don't know. But she has retained me to represent her son's interests, not to represent her at all.

The Chairman. I see.

Mr. Lane. Of course, we have conferred. But I do not have that information.

The Chairman. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. Mr Lane, I have a further question. Have you ever been prevented by any law enforcement officer from interviewing anyone concerning this matter when you wished to?

Mr. Lane. Well, I would say that I have been prevented by the statements made by the law enforcement persons or agents to the individual, that he should not talk to anyone about this case, that it is a secret matter. As I have indicated, Mr. Klein——

Mr. Rankin. You have described those cases, have you?

Mr. Lane. I have also spoken to a reporter who is employed by a Dallas newspaper, who informed me that he sought to question more than 150 in the area, and that many of those persons informed him that they were ordered by the FBI not to talk to anyone about this case, and that almost none of the witnesses would talk with him about the case, and that some of them, when he asked the reason that they were not talking to him, it was "Was this because you have been told by the FBI?"—and he indicated they were not even allowed to answer that question. But many of them told him that the FBI or the Secret Service ordered them not to talk. In no other respect have I been interfered with to my knowledge.

Mr. Rankin. Do you have the name of that reporter—can you reveal that to us?

Mr. Lane. I cannot reveal it at this time, but I am hopeful you will permit me to. He is one of the reporters I referred to earlier.

Mr. Rankin. Thank you.

The Chairman. Senator, do you have any questions?

Senator Cooper. No; I have no questions.

The Chairman. Mr. Rhyne.

Mr. Rhyne. Mr. Chief Justice—I wanted to ask Mr. Lane, on his inquiry about what happened to Oswald during the 48 hours he was under detention—you suggested that the Commission make an inquiry into whether his civil rights were denied. Do you have any information on that subject?

Mr. Lane. Yes. I saw what happened—I read in the newspapers and heard on the radio.

Mr. Rhyne. It looked to me that most of the material presented here today was really in the newspapers. You are merely repeating what someone else has said.

Mr. Lane. I don't think that is an accurate characterization of my testimony at all, sir. For example, I told you before of conversations that I have had—I know you listened intently—I told you of conversations that I had with Mr. Klein. I told you of conversations I had with Miss Hill, who is probably the closest eyewitness to the assassination, with Miss Woodward, who is perhaps the second or third closest witness to the assassination, with Dial Ryder, with at least two or three other persons.

Mr. Rhyne. But on this one point, with respect to denial of any civil rights or protection of civil rights during this 48-hour period, you say that is all in the newspaper stories?

Mr. Lane. No. What I meant by that response was that the basic denial that I was discussing was the development of the case publicly against him, so that it would be impossible in securing a jury panel to secure 12 jurors probably anywhere in this country who had not reached a conclusion, first of all. And60 secondly, obviously the death of the accused, which I know is a matter for the Commission's inquiry already.

Mr. Rhyne. I notice that you said your investigation was incomplete. So I just wanted to be sure that I understood what you meant with respect to this 48-hour detention period.

Mr. Lane. No; I have no knowledge over and above that that I could give you in that area.

The Chairman. Mr. Murray, do you have any questions you would like to ask?

Mr. Murray. No; I have none, Mr. Chief Justice, at this time.

The Chairman. Well, Mr. Lane, if any evidence should come to your attention in the future, would you be willing to convey the information to the Commission?

Mr. Lane. Yes; I certainly would, sir.

The Chairman. We will appreciate it if you would. Thank you for your attendance.

We will adjourn at this time.

(Whereupon, at 5:35 p.m., the President's Commission adjourned, and reconvened in executive session.)


TESTIMONY OF MR. LANE RESUMED IN EXECUTIVE SESSION

The Chairman. The session will be in order.

Mr. Rankin. Will you proceed, Mr. Lane, in executive session now, to describe the names?

Mr. Lane. The third name that I was informed—the person that I was informed was there, the third person, is named Jack Ruby. It was my feeling, of course, while his case was pending it would not be proper to comment on that in the presence of the press.

Mr. Rankin. You mean the third person in the group apparently conferring?

Mr. Lane. Yes. Tippit, Weissman, and Ruby.

The Chairman. Have you made any public statement of this kind before on this subject—about this meeting?

Mr. Lane. Not about Ruby—about a meeting between Weissman and Tippit, yes.

The Chairman. But you never named Ruby publicly?

Mr. Lane. No; I have not. I shall not.

The Chairman. I see. Do you know any way by which we might corroborate that meeting—the fact that it was held?

Mr. Lane. I am going this evening to see, or tomorrow—I will try this evening first—to see if I can secure permission by my informant to reveal his name, and I hope he will be willing to come forward and testify as to what took place.

The Chairman. The Commission would like to know it, if you can do that.

Mr. Lane. Yes; I shall inform you as soon as I discover that. I would like very much for the Commission to have that information. Can I indicate to my informant that the matter can be so raised so that his name will not be known to anyone other than the Commission?

The Chairman. Yes, sir; you may.

Mr. Lane. That will be extremely helpful.

The Chairman. If you can think of any way that can be corroborated, it would be most helpful to us.

Mr. Lane. I understand.

The Chairman. Congressman, you just got in as we are about to adjourn. Mr. Lane was telling us of one piece of information that he had concerning a meeting that was held at the Carousel Nightclub, about a week, did you say——

Mr. Lane. Yes.

The Chairman. About a week before the assassination, at which the man who financed this full-page article in the paper, Dallas paper, this morning, concerning61 President Kennedy, and Officer Tippit, and he told us in private here—he didn't want to mention it before the press—Jack Ruby. And he tells us that he will try to find out from his informant more about that, and if he possibly can deliver the information to us.

Senator Cooper. May I ask one question?

I assume from what you have said you wouldn't be able to answer it, but was there any reason ascribed for the presence of Tippit?

Mr. Lane. My informant does not know the reason.

Senator Cooper. Or Ruby, with Weissman?

Mr. Lane. My informant does not know that information.

Representative Ford. May I ask a question, Mr. Chief Justice? When did this information come to your attention, Mr. Lane?

Mr. Lane. Some weeks ago.

Representative Ford. Do you consider the informant a reliable, responsible person?

Mr. Lane. Yes. I cannot vouch, of course, for the information personally, but I believe the informant is a reliable and a responsible person.

Representative Ford. Would your informant be willing, as far as you know—be willing to testify and give the Commission this information directly?

Mr. Lane. I am going to try to arrange that this evening. The Chief Justice has indicated that his name would not be known if he did that, and that I did not know that I could make that statement to him before now. I hope that will be decisive.

The Chairman. Is there anything further, gentlemen?

If not——

Representative Ford. May I ask, Mr. Chairman, are we going to have a schedule laid out, are we going to have a meeting of the Commission where maybe we will know what the schedule is in the next week or 10 days or 2 weeks?

Mr. Rankin. We have a draft now.

The Chairman. We have a draft for you to see.

Mr. Lane. Perhaps I should withdraw at this time.

The Chairman. All right.

Mr. Lane, thank you very much, sir.

(Whereupon, at 5:45 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)


Monday, March 9, 1964
TESTIMONY OF ROY H. KELLERMAN, WILLIAM ROBERT GREER, CLINTON J. HILL, AND RUFUS WAYNE YOUNGBLOOD

The President's Commission met at 9:10 a.m. on March 9, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C.

Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Senator John Sherman Cooper, Representative Hale Boggs, and Representative Gerald R. Ford, members.

Also present were Norman Redlich, assistant counsel; Arlen Specter, assistant counsel; Walter Craig and Charles Murray, observers; and Fred Smith, Treasury Department.

TESTIMONY OF ROY H. KELLERMAN, SPECIAL AGENT, SECRET SERVICE

The Chairman. Gentlemen, the Commission will be in order. Will you be seated, please?

Would you state the names of the witnesses who are to be heard today, Mr. Specter?

62 Mr. Specter. Yes, Your Honor; the witnesses are to be Roy Kellerman of the Secret Service, William R. Greer of the Secret Service, Clinton Hill, also of the Secret Service, and Rufus Youngblood, representative of the Secret Service.

The Chairman. Very well, gentlemen; you know the purpose of the meeting, and we will call first, Mr. who?

Mr. Specter. Mr. Kellerman is our first witness.

The Chairman. Mr. Kellerman. Gentlemen, I want to announce that today it will be necessary for me to spend practically all of the morning with the Supreme Court, and in my absence Congressman Ford will conduct the hearing today because he can be here practically all the time. I will be here in and out throughout the day, however.

Congressman Ford, will you take over please?

Representative Ford. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

The Chairman. Will you proceed? I believe the first thing is to swear the witness.

Mr. Specter. Very good, sir.

Representative Ford. Do you promise to tell the truth, the whole truth, so help you God?

Mr. Kellerman. I do, sir.

Mr. Specter. Will you state your full name for the record, please?

Mr. Kellerman. My name is Roy H. Kellerman.

Mr. Specter. By whom are you employed, Mr. Kellerman?

Mr. Kellerman. I am employed as a special agent for the Secret Service.

Mr. Specter. How old are you?

Mr. Kellerman. I am 48 years old.

Mr. Specter. Married?

Mr. Kellerman. Pardon?

Mr. Specter. Are you married?

Mr. Kellerman. Yes, sir; I am married and have two daughters; their ages are 20 and 17.

Mr. Specter. Where do you reside?

Mr. Kellerman. Bethesda, Md.

Mr. Specter. What is your current duty station with the Secret Service?

Mr. Kellerman. My current duty station is assistant special agent in charge of the White House detail.

Mr. Specter. How long have you been with the Secret Service?

Mr. Kellerman. This is my 23d year.

Mr. Specter. Will you sketch in a general outline what your duties have been with the Secret Service since the time you started with them, please?

Mr. Kellerman. I was appointed an agent with the Secret Service in Detroit, Mich., the 19th of December 1941. I was transferred to Washington, D.C., the field office, on February 9, 1942. Prior to that I had a 30-day assignment in the office of Cincinnati, Ohio, temporarily. I worked in the Washington field office from the 9th of February 1942 until the middle of March 1942, whereby I was temporarily transferred to the White House detail. This transfer became permanent, effective, I believe it was, the 17th of April or the latter part of April in 1942, still as a special agent.

At the White House detail we work on shifts around the clock, protecting the President and his family. I was a member of one of those three shifts. Presently, these shifts change on a two-weekly basis, from 8 to 4, 4 to midnight, and midnight to 8. I remained on the White House detail until February 7, 1951, when I was transferred to Indianapolis, Ind. Prior to that time I had received enough seniority whereby I grew up on this shift from the bottom to the top, and was in charge of one of the shifts prior to my departure to Indianapolis. This was fieldwork in Indiana.

On February 1, 1955, I was transferred back to the White House detail. On my return I was comparable to like, let's say, the No. 2 man of a shift. I was not in charge of it.

From 1955, I believe a couple of years later a vacancy occurred, a top man of that shift left and I received his position. That title was assistant to the special63 agent in charge. You at that time governed each man on your shift. You were in charge of him.

On October 1 of 1962 a vacancy was opened in the three top officials of the White House detail, which are comprised of, let me say, the special agent in charge, who has two assistants; one vacancy occurred. It was the oldest man on the White House detail; it was given to me and that is why today I have the title of assistant special agent in charge.

Mr. Specter. Now, since you brought us up to 1955, have your duties remained the same since that time?

Mr. Kellerman. I should bring you up to 1964. In 1955, I was transferred back to the White House detail, remained on that status on shift work until 1962, whereas I am now an assistant special agent in charge, which duties are the overseeing and the complete responsibility of the entire White House detail.

Mr. Specter. What is your educational background, Mr.——

Mr. Kellerman. I am a high school graduate only.

Mr. Specter. What year did you graduate from high school?

Mr. Kellerman. 1933.

Mr. Specter. What were your activities between graduation from high school and the time you joined the Secret Service, please?

Mr. Kellerman. In October of 1937 I completed the training with the Michigan State Police. I was sworn in as a trooper. I remained with the Michigan State Police until December 18, 1941, when I resigned and was appointed to the U.S. Secret Service.

Mr. Specter. How were you employed or occupied from the time of graduation from high school until the time you joined the Michigan State Police?

Mr. Kellerman. 1933 there wasn't too much work; 1935 was my first work with the Dodge Corp. of the Chrysler people in Detroit.

Mr. Specter. How long did you work there, sir?

Mr. Kellerman. Three years, off and on.

Mr. Specter. You described in a general way the organization of the Secret Service on the White House protective detail. Who is the special agent in charge?

Mr. Kellerman. Mr. Gerald A. Behn, sir.

Mr. Specter. Was he the special agent in charge back on November 22, 1963?

Mr. Kellerman. He was.

Mr. Specter. How many shifts are there?

Mr. Kellerman. Three shifts, sir.

Mr. Specter. And approximately how many men are assigned to each shift?

Mr. Kellerman. Ten men on each shift, sir.

Mr. Specter. What were your specific duties back on November 22 of 1963?

Mr. Kellerman. My specific duty, gentlemen, on the 22d of November of 1963, I was in charge of the detail for this trip of President Kennedy, for the trip to Texas in those 2 days.

Mr. Specter. How did you personally make the trip to Texas?

Mr. Kellerman. I rode on the President's plane on the entire tour.

Mr. Specter. Would you outline in a general way the times of departure and arrival on the trip to Texas up until the morning of November 22, please?

Mr. Kellerman. I just don't have the time we left Washington, D.C.

Mr. Specter. Without the precise times; just in a general way.

Mr. Kellerman. All right. We departed in the morning from Washington. Our first stop was in San Antonio, Tex.

Mr. Specter. Which morning was that, sir?

Mr. Kellerman. It was November 21; it was at San Antonio, Tex., that we picked up the then Vice President Johnson. The two people continued on this tour of the State in separate planes. During our stay in San Antonio, we then flew from San Antonio to Houston, Tex. There were ceremonies there, and the program there which had been set up. From Houston we flew into Fort Worth, Tex., where we remained overnight on November 21.

We arrived at the Texas Hotel, it was a little after 11 o'clock in the evening. There were no activities until the following morning, November 22.

Mr. Specter. What time did the activities start the following morning?

Mr. Kellerman. On November 22, the activities started at around 8:25 in the64 morning when the President, accompanied by the then Vice President Johnson, and a few congressional leaders walked out the front door, across this street which was a parking lot, and a few minutes' speech was made to the gathering there. It was a light drizzle at the time. From there we returned to the hotel and he attended a breakfast given by the chamber of commerce and, I believe it was, a citizens group of Fort Worth. On completion of the breakfast he returned to his suite. The weather was then changing. It had quit raining and it looked like it was going to break out and be a real beautiful day. In the neighborhood of 10 o'clock in the morning I received a call from Mr. Lawson, Special Agent Lawson, who had the advance from Dallas, Tex.

Mr. Specter. Mr. Lawson was with the Secret Service, was he?

Mr. Kellerman. Yes, sir; he is. He asked me to determine whether the bubbletop car that the President would ride in in Dallas that day should have the top down or remain up.

Mr. Specter. Let me interrupt you there for just a minute, Mr. Kellerman. I show you a photograph which has been marked as Commission Exhibit No. 344. Are you able to identify that picture and the automobile in that picture?

Mr. Kellerman. Yes, sir; this is the 1961 Lincoln Continental four-door convertible bubbletop. It is a special car.

Mr. Specter. For the purpose of the record, how many doors does that car have?

Mr. Kellerman. This vehicle has four doors.

Mr. Specter. And in the posture of the picture identified as Commission Exhibit 344, is the top up or down?

Mr. Kellerman. The top is down, sir.

Mr. Specter. And what top does that automobile have?

Mr. Kellerman. This top is a plastic top. From the rear of the passenger all the way to the windshield there are four sections of plastic glass. The one that comes over the top of the passengers in the back seat, two little sections that come over the two doors, and one over the driver and passenger in the front seat.

Mr. Specter. In what way is that attached, if any, to the car?

Mr. Kellerman. Securely bolted, screwed.

Mr. Specter. Mr. Chairman, may I ask that the Exhibit 344 be introduced formally in evidence, please?

Representative Ford. It will be so admitted.

(The photograph referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 344 for identification and received in evidence.)

Mr. Specter. I now hand you a photograph marked Commission Exhibit 345. Are you able to tell us what that depicts?

Mr. Kellerman. Yes, sir; this is the same vehicle as mentioned in 344. The difference being the top is up and there is a covering, a cloth covering that also fits over this plastic top.

Mr. Specter. And Exhibit No. 345 is taken from what angle, Mr. Kellerman?

Mr. Kellerman. From the rear, sir.

Mr. Specter. As contrasted with Exhibit No. 344, which is taken from what angle?

Mr. Kellerman. This is from the right side.

Mr. Specter. I ask that Exhibit 345 be introduced, if the Commission please.

Representative Ford. So admitted.

(The photograph referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 345 for identification and received in evidence.)

Mr. Specter. I now hand you a photograph marked Commission Exhibit 346, Mr. Kellerman, and ask you if you can tell us what that depicts.

Mr. Kellerman. This picture depicts the interior of this same automobile. It has a rear solid seat; there are two other jump seats that can be folded forward in the rear and the complete solid front seat for the driver and passenger. This is the same vehicle.

Mr. Specter. Will you describe what, if anything, is present between the front seat and the rear seat area?

Mr. Kellerman. Yes, sir. This metal partition that is erected in back of the driver, between the driver and the passengers in the rear seat, is a metal65 framework that goes over the car. It has four holes in it. These holes are utilized by the President for parades. As an example, say it was used in Washington where you had an official visitor, and in using one of the streets here as your parade route, he and his guest would stand in this car where the people could view them a little better than sitting in the rear seat.

Mr. Specter. Where is that metal bar positioned with respect to the front seat?

Mr. Kellerman. It is positioned over the front seat; the top of this bar would be 4 or 5 inches over my head.

Mr. Specter. Is it directly over the back portion of the front seat?

Mr. Kellerman. Yes, sir. Directly over the front seat.

Mr. Specter. And you describe it as 4 or 5 inches over your head. Can you give us an estimate of the distance above the top of the front seat?

Mr. Kellerman. Oh, I am guessing in the neighborhood of 15, 18 inches.

Mr. Specter. What is the width of that metal bar?

Mr. Kellerman. The bar, 4 to 6 inches, I would say.

Mr. Specter. Can you tell us approximately how wide the automobile itself is?

Mr. Kellerman. No; I can't.

Mr. Specter. With respect to the automobile, are there any running boards?

Mr. Kellerman. There are no running boards.

Mr. Specter. Is there any place on the car where someone can stand up and ride as it proceeds in motion?

Mr. Kellerman. Yes; on the rear of the vehicle, sir.

Mr. Specter. How many such positions are there?

Mr. Kellerman. There is a step on each side of the spare tire, one man on each one.

Mr. Specter. And is there any facility for holding on with a man riding in those positions?

Mr. Kellerman. Yes, sir; there is a metal arm erected on the trunk where a man can hold on while standing on the rear of the car.

Mr. Specter. All right.

May it please the Commission, I move that Exhibit 346 be introduced in evidence.

Representative Ford. It will be so admitted.

(The photograph referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 346 for identification and received in evidence.)

Mr. Specter. With reference to the bubble top which you have heretofore described, of what is that composed?

Mr. Kellerman. It is composed of plastic, clear plastic substance. Its use would be for a weather matter whereby the President or his occupants can see out. It is not an enclosed car.

Mr. Specter. Is it bulletproof?

Mr. Kellerman. It is not bulletproof.

Mr. Specter. Is it bullet resistant in any way?

Mr. Kellerman. It's not bullet resistant.

Mr. Specter. Could you describe in a general way at this point what efforts, if any, have been made to obtain a bulletproof clear top for the President's automobile?

Mr. Kellerman. Presently?

Mr. Specter. Presently or heretofore.

Mr. Kellerman. I am going to have to go in the present day.

Mr. Specter. Fine.

Mr. Kellerman. This same vehicle, I understand, is being completed with a bullet-resistant top and sides.

Representative Ford. Can you explain the difference between bullet resistant and the existing kind of the top?

Mr. Kellerman. I can't; I really can't. I have been behind on this thing and I am at a loss for a better answer.

Representative Ford. Could the present top deflect in any way, destroy the accuracy of a shot?

Mr. Kellerman. This would be a guess, Mr. Congressman. I would think66 that it would be deterred for, let's say, the velocity of a missile coming in at great speed, I think it would deter it; I don't think it would eliminate—it still would enter the top.

Representative Ford. The vehicle.

Mr. Kellerman. I am sure; yes, sir.

Representative Ford. But as far as you know the top that was available would not impede the projectile? Do you know whether or not it would deflect its accuracy?

Mr. Kellerman. Well, I have tried to study that, sir. The angle of the back as an example which is, what degree I don't recall, hoping that—of course, it was now known to be an upshot into the vehicle hoping that it would deter its force and so forth, but I really don't know. I kind of doubt it.

Mr. Specter. Mr. Kellerman, in describing the top as being not bulletproof and not bullet resistant, state whether you are describing the top which they are currently working on or the top which was present at the time of November 22, 1963?

Mr. Kellerman. That is the top that they are currently working on.

Mr. Specter. Well, as to the bubble top which accompanied this car on November 22, 1963, was that bulletproof or bullet resistant?

Mr. Kellerman. It was not; neither.

Mr. Specter. Do you know whether or not an effort is being made at the present time to develop a bullet-resistant or bulletproof top.

Mr. Kellerman. Yes sir; it is.

Mr. Specter. Are you personally familiar with the progress of that effort?

Mr. Kellerman. I am not, sir.

Mr. Specter. Do you know how the President's automobile was transported from Washington, D.C., to Texas?

Mr. Kellerman. Yes, sir. The President's vehicle was transported to San Antonio by cargo aircraft. It was flown to San Antonio a day before the President arrived. It was then flown from San Antonio to Dallas, where it was used on November 22. This vehicle was not used in the other two stops at Houston and Fort Worth.

Representative Ford. When you say cargo aircraft——

Mr. Kellerman. Like a C-130, sir.

Representative Ford. A Government?

Mr. Kellerman. You are right, sir; that is right.

Mr. Specter. Mr. Kellerman, what were the President's activities, if you know immediately prior to the time he departed from Fort Worth?

Senator Cooper. Might I ask just one question?

Mr. Specter. Yes, sir.

Senator Cooper. Do you know whether or not prior to November 22 the President's car had ever been equipped with a top which had the capacity to stop or deflect a bullet?

Mr. Kellerman. Never had been, Senator.

Senator Cooper. There was none in existence?

Mr. Kellerman. No, sir.

Mr. Specter. Mr. Kellerman, what were the President's activities immediately before departing from Fort Worth on the morning of November 22?

Mr. Kellerman. First he walked from the hotel across the street, spoke to a group that were in a parking lot, with other congressional people there in Texas. From there he walked right into the hotel and entered the ballroom where a breakfast was held, given to him by the chamber of commerce and, I believe, the citizens group in Fort Worth.

From there he returned to his suite because there was time left before his departure for Dallas. It was up there in the neighborhood of 10 o'clock in the morning that Special Agent Lawson called me from Dallas asking me to verify whether the top should be put on—should remain on the President's car or should be taken off due to the change of weather. It had been raining slightly in Dallas at that time. I said, "One moment and I will check with you one way or the other."

As I said earlier, the weather was clearing in Fort Worth; it was going to be a nice day. I asked Mr. Kenneth O'Donnell, who is President Kennedy's67 appointment secretary: "Mr. O'Donnell," I said, "the weather; it is slightly raining in Dallas, predictions of clearing up. Do you desire to have the bubbletop on the President's car or do you, or would you desire to have it removed for this parade over to the Trade Mart?"

His instructions to me were, "If the weather is clear and it is not raining, have that bubbletop off," and that is exactly what I relayed to Mr. Lawson.

Mr. Specter. Now, at about what time did President Kennedy depart from Fort Worth?

Mr. Kellerman. We were airborne from Fort Worth at 11:20 in the morning.

Mr. Specter. In what plane were you airborne?

Mr. Kellerman. In the President's special plane, sir.

Mr. Specter. What time did you arrive in that plane in Dallas?

Mr. Kellerman. We arrived in Dallas, Love Field, at 11:40 a.m.

Mr. Specter. Describe in a general way what President Kennedy's activities were at Love Field, please.

Mr. Kellerman. Very well. May I add this: Again I said there were two planes in this program. The then Vice President Johnson would be in a separate plane. He would land ahead of us by a minute or two, all right. He is in Dallas by the time we arrive at 11:40 a.m. As we are spotted on the apron at Love Field and when the ramp is pulled forward, the Vice President, then Vice President Johnson and Mrs. Johnson, together with a selected group of people would form a reception committee from the end of the ramp straight out to where the motorcade was in place.

At 11:40, as I said, the President and Mrs. Kennedy left that plane, met these people. As we finished greeting these folks here, there was an elderly lady wheeled up in a wheelchair; her name I do not know; the both of them met her. By this time the people are starting to get in their automobiles for this trip into town. The President then noticed that there was quite a gathering of people at this airport in back of a fenced area, and, with her, they both walked over to this crowded area and started shaking hands and greeting these people who had been there perhaps some time before we got in.

Mr. Specter. By "her", who do you mean, sir?

Mr. Kellerman. Mrs. Kennedy; I am sorry.

Mr. Specter. What would you estimate the crowd to be?

Mr. Kellerman. In the thousands; I would say there were two, three, four thousand people there.

Mr. Specter. Approximately how long did the greeting of the crowd at Love Field last, Mr. Kellerman?

Mr. Kellerman. Fifteen minutes. The motorcade left Love Field at 11:55.

Mr. Specter. Approximately how many cars were there in that motorcade?

Mr. Kellerman. At least 15.

Mr. Specter. What was the first car in line?

Mr. Kellerman. The first car in line, sir, was what we call the police pilot car. The duties of these police officers in that car—they would drive ahead.

Mr. Specter. Do you personally know who was in that car?

Mr. Kellerman. No, sir.

Mr. Specter. How far ahead of the regular motorcade were they to be?

Mr. Kellerman. They could be several blocks ahead of us.

Mr. Specter. What is the general purpose of that pilot car?

Mr. Kellerman. The purpose of that pilot car is to clear the roadway and instruct the officers along the route that the President is in motion and coming in back of them. Next you will find a small group of motorcycles.

Mr. Specter. Do you know how many motorcycles there were in Dallas on that day?

Mr. Kellerman. No; I don't.

Mr. Specter. Will you tell us what the custom is with respect to motorcycles?

Mr. Kellerman. Yes, sir; those motorcycles that would be in back of that police car were to assist any officers along the way in any disturbance that they would run into before we got to that point, or secondly, in the event that we needed them back on our car they could be called, utilized.

Mr. Specter. What is the next car in line?

68 Mr. Kellerman. The next car is the lead car. That car on that day was driven by Chief Curry of the Dallas Police Department.

His occupants in that car was Special Agent Winston Lawson, who was carrying a portable radio with him. Also in this car was Special Agent in Charge Verne Sorrels, in charge of our Dallas office. The other occupant, I believe, was a deputy sheriff.

Mr. Specter. Was it Sheriff Decker, perhaps, of Dallas County?

Mr. Kellerman. The name doesn't reach me, sir; I am sorry.

Mr. Specter. You described a radio. Will you tell us a little more fully what radio transmission there was in the motorcade, please?

Mr. Kellerman. Yes, sir. This lead car which Mr. Lawson was in has a portable radio. The President's car is next. This is equipped with a permanent set radio on the same frequency as that gentleman up front. The next car is our Secret Service followup car which has a permanent installation. The Secret Service car, as I say, is equipped with a permanent installation which connects the President's car and the lead car. The next car in back of our Secret Service car was the then Vice President Johnson. The Secret Service agent in that car had a portable radio that he could read all three of us ahead. His car following was a small Secret Service followup car, and they, too, had a portable set, which could read all four.

So we had a net of five on our own frequency. In the police cars they had their own city police frequency radios.

Mr. Specter. How many frequencies were used by your own network?

Mr. Kellerman. One.

Representative Ford. Do you have an alternative frequency, emergency frequency?

Mr. Kellerman. Yes, sir; we do. We have two of them.

Mr. Specter. What automobile came behind the lead automobile?

Mr. Kellerman. The President's car.

Mr. Specter. Describe the occupants of that car, indicating their positions, if you can, please.

Mr. Kellerman. Yes. The President—President Kennedy sat on the right rear seat. Next to him on the left seat was Mrs. Kennedy. On the right jump seat in front of President Kennedy was Governor Connally. On the left jump seat in front of Mrs. Kennedy was Mrs. Connally. I sat on the right passenger seat of the driver's seat, and Special Agent William Greer drove the vehicle.

Mr. Specter. How far were you behind the lead car?

Mr. Kellerman. No more than two or three car lengths.

Senator Cooper. What is that? I didn't hear it.

Mr. Kellerman. No more than two or three car lengths, Senator Cooper.

Mr. Specter. What car immediately followed the President's car?

Mr. Kellerman. Our own Secret Service followup car.

Mr. Specter. What kind of a car was that?

Mr. Kellerman. This is a 1956 Cadillac, four-door touring car with the top down.

Mr. Specter. Was that also a special automobile flown in?

Mr. Kellerman. This is a special automobile, flown in with the President's car; yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. Specter. And who were the occupants of that car, indicating their positions in the car?

Mr. Kellerman. All during this ride in from Love Field Special Agent Sam Kinney was the driver of this automobile. The assistant to the Special Agent in Charge Emory Roberts was sitting in the front seat, the passenger side. This car has running boards. Standing on the front of the left running board was Special Agent Clinton Hill. In back of him on the rear of that same running board on that side was Special Agent William McIntyre. On the right running board standing forward was Special Agent John Ready, and standing in back of him on the rear of the right running board was Special Agent Paul Landis.

Mr. Specter. Did that automobile have jump seats?

Mr. Kellerman. This automobile has jump seats.

69 Mr. Specter. And what people occupied the jump seats?

Mr. Kellerman. It was occupied by Mr. Kenneth O'Donnell, who was the appointment secretary of President Kennedy, and Mr. Dave Powers.

Mr. Specter. Do you know which sat on which side?

Mr. Kellerman. Mr. O'Donnell sat on the left; Mr. Powers sat on the right.

Mr. Specter. Who was in the back seat of that automobile?

Mr. Kellerman. The back seat of that automobile on the right side was Special Agent George Hickey, and on the left side Special Agent Glen Bennett.

Mr. Specter. How were the special agents in the followup car armed, if at all?

Mr. Kellerman. Each agent carries his own gun. This is a 4-inch revolver on their person.

Mr. Specter. Would that apply to you and Mr. Greer as well?

Mr. Kellerman. Absolutely.

Mr. Specter. Were there any other arms in the President's followup car?

Mr. Kellerman. Yes, sir; in this followup car we have what is now known as an AR-15. This is a rifle, and it is on all movements; this vehicle is out of the case; it won't be shown; it could be laying flat on the floor, but she is ready to go.

Mr. Specter. Now, how far behind the President's car did the Presidential followup car follow?

Mr. Kellerman. Not knowing how far it was behind, I would say, from the practice of that driver that he has, five feet would be a maximum.

Mr. Specter. What car was in the motorcade immediately behind the President's followup car?

Mr. Kellerman. That was Vice President Johnson's car then.

Mr. Specter. What kind of a car was that on that particular day?

Mr. Kellerman. This was a Lincoln four-door Continental convertible. This was a four-door car, with no top on it.

Mr. Specter. Is that a special car, also, or is that obtained on the market?

Mr. Kellerman. This is not a special car; it is a car that is on the market.

Mr. Specter. What car followed the Vice President's car?

Mr. Kellerman. The car following his car was a police car. It was driven by a member of the Dallas Police Force, or I just don't recall. I am sorry.

Mr. Specter. Do you have personal knowledge or detail of the occupants of the Vice President's car?

Mr. Kellerman. Yes; I do.

Mr. Specter. Who was present there?

Mr. Kellerman. Special Agent Rufus Youngblood sat in the front seat on the right side. In back of him on the right side and the rear was the then Vice President Johnson. Next to him was Mrs. Johnson, and next to Mrs. Johnson was Senator Yarborough.

Mr. Specter. Was Vice President Johnson seated on the right side or the left side of the rear seat?

Mr. Kellerman. On the right side, sir.

Mr. Specter. Were there jump seats in the Vice President's car?

Mr. Kellerman. No, sir.

Mr. Specter. Do you know the identity of the driver of the Vice President's car?

Mr. Kellerman. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. Who was that?

Mr. Kellerman. That was Mr. Hurchel Jacks. He is a Dallas police officer.

Mr. Specter. Might he be a Texas State police officer?

Mr. Kellerman. Yes, sir; you are right.

Mr. Specter. Do you know the identity of all of the individuals in the Vice President's followup car?

Mr. Kellerman. Not the driver. The agents, yes.

Mr. Specter. Who were they, sir?

Mr. Kellerman. Special Agent Thomas L. Johns, Special Agent Warren Taylor, and I believe that is all.

Mr. Specter. Are you able to indicate their precise positions?

Mr. Kellerman. No, no.

70 Mr. Specter. Now, what car, if you know, followed the Vice President's followup car?

Mr. Kellerman. That was car—as an example, car No. 1, which would be a congressional car; the occupants I do not know at the present time.

Mr. Specter. And behind that car, describe in a general way the balance of the motorcade, if you will, please.

Mr. Kellerman. All right. The balance of the motorcade, the back of that car No. 1 which would be the congressional people would be two press cars, one covering the wire people, and one would be the photographic group. Then you would have a series of guest cars, and then a press bus. And then a police car followup, bringing up the entire motorcade.

Mr. Specter. You described the motorcycles which followed the pilot car. Were there any other motorcycles in the motorcade?

Mr. Kellerman. Yes, sir; we had four other motorcycles opposite the back wheel of the President's vehicle, sir.

Mr. Specter. Were those on both sides or on each side?

Mr. Kellerman. On each side; two on each side.

Mr. Specter. Were there any other motorcycles in the balance of the motorcade?

Mr. Kellerman. Not that I recall.

Mr. Specter. At what speed did the motorcade proceed at the various times en route, say, from Love Field down to the downtown section of Dallas, Tex.?

Mr. Kellerman. As we left Love Field, the driveway from this apron on the field was sort of a winding thing, and there were many people that gathered on the roadside to view him as they passed. I don't think we traveled more than 12 to 15 miles until we left the airport apron proper.

Mr. Specter. Twelve to fifteen miles per hour?

Mr. Kellerman. Per hour.

Mr. Specter. Yes.

Mr. Kellerman. Then, as we were in the opening between there and the city limits of Dallas, we could have gone 25 to 30.

Mr. Specter. What was the size of the crowd at that specific point?

Mr. Kellerman. Nothing in between then until we hit the outskirts of the city. Of course, then you got into a residential, a school, area where all the people were out on the curb line.

Mr. Specter. What was the speed when you reached that area?

Mr. Kellerman. Then we would reduce the speed down to 15 miles an hour.

Mr. Specter. What is your best estimate of the minimum speed traveled until you reached the downtown area?

Mr. Kellerman. We could have been going 25 to 30 at several times, sir.

Mr. Specter. What were the crowds like in the downtown area itself?

Mr. Kellerman. A lot of people.

Mr. Specter. What was the speed of the motorcade when you came into the downtown area?

Mr. Kellerman. It would be reduced down to 10 to 15 miles an hour, sir.

Mr. Specter. Were there any unusual occurrences en route from Love Field until, say, you got to the downtown area of Dallas, Tex.?

Mr. Kellerman. As we were on the outskirts of this town and apparently reaching a crowded area there were a group of youngsters on the right side of the car curb-line-wise, that had a large sign, oh, perhaps the width of the two windows there, that said, "Please, Mr. President, stop and shake our hands," and he saw this and he called to the driver and said, "Stop," he said, "call these people over and I will shake their hands," which we did. The entire motorcade stopped. I got out of the car and stood alongside of it while these people were right up on me. The agents who were on the followup car, all around it. And then after a few seconds he said, "All right; let's travel on."

Mr. Specter. You say the agents in the followup car moved up at the stopping?

Mr. Kellerman. Always, sir.

Mr. Specter. Specifically, what did they do on that occasion?

Mr. Kellerman. They crowded right in between the President, the car, and the people.

71 Mr. Specter. Did the President actually leave the car?

Mr. Kellerman. No.

Mr. Specter. And how long did that stop last?

Mr. Kellerman. A matter of seconds.

Mr. Specter. Was there any other unusual occurrence en route to the downtown area itself?

Mr. Kellerman. No; I can recall, however, one small affair. I think we were in the heart of Dallas on this street when a young boy jumped off the curb and apparently he was thinking of running over to the President's car and shaking his hands when one of our people left the followup car and put him back on the curb, and that all happened in motion so there was nothing out of the way.

Mr. Specter. I show you a photograph marked Commission Exhibit No. 347 and ask you if you are at this time able to tell us what that photograph represents.

The Chairman. Congressman Ford, may I interrupt at this time to ask to be excused? I have a session in the Supreme Court, but I will be back later.

Representative Ford. Thank you very much, Mr. Chief Justice.

(Chief Justice Warren left the hearing room.)

Mr. Kellerman. This is an aerial photo of the downtown parade.

Mr. Specter. Are you able to identify the street on which you proceeded coming into the area depicted by that photograph?

Mr. Kellerman. Yes, sir. This is—this would be Main Street as we came into the heart of Dallas.

Mr. Specter. I think it might be helpful if we marked that as Main Street if we can get a pencil or pen that will mark on that.

Mr. Craig. May I suggest the witness mark it?

Mr. Specter. I think it is a good idea. Will you mark the street which you have identified as Main Street?

(Witness marking.)

Mr. Specter. Will you also mark——

Mr. Kellerman. We were traveling——

Mr. Specter. The street onto which you turned from Main Street?

Mr. Kellerman. As we were coming up from Main Street or down, either way.

Mr. Specter. In what general direction were you proceeding on Main Street?

Mr. Kellerman. This was a westerly direction.

Mr. Specter. Would you put an arrow indicating which way is north on the map? That is a general northerly direction on the map.

(Witness indicating.)

Mr. Specter. Will you mark an arrow on Main Street showing the direction on which you were proceeding on Main? And how far did you proceed on Main Street to what street?

Mr. Kellerman. Elm Street, sir. This is a very short block, maybe a couple of hundred feet at the most.

Mr. Specter. My question was to what street did you proceed on Main? You then drove to what street?

Mr. Kellerman. Houston Street.

Mr. Specter. Which way did you turn onto Houston Street?

Mr. Kellerman. Turned right, which would be north.

Mr. Specter. Will you mark the street that you have told us would be Houston Street?

(Witness indicating.)

Mr. Specter. How far did you proceed down Houston Street?

Mr. Kellerman. I am sure it wasn't more than 200 feet at the most. It was a real short block.

Mr. Specter. What street then did you turn onto as you turned off of Houston Street?

Mr. Kellerman. From Houston we turned onto Elm, which was a rather sharp turn with a downgrade, sir.

Mr. Specter. Was that a turn on the left or the right?

Mr. Kellerman. To the left, sir.

Mr. Specter. I ask that Exhibit 347 be admitted in evidence, may it please the Commission.

72 Representative Ford. It will be admitted.

Mr. Specter. I now show you a photograph marked Commission Exhibit No. 348, Mr. Kellerman, and I ask you if you are able at this time to identify what building is in that picture?

Mr. Kellerman. This building right straight ahead in the photo—I couldn't have told you on the day of the 22nd of November what it was, but as of now this is the Texas Depository Building.

Mr. Specter. Is that the building known as the Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mr. Kellerman. That is right, sir.

(The photograph marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 347 and 348 for identification and received in evidence.)

Mr. Specter. Will you mark on Exhibit 347—we have 348, we will get 348 back in a moment. I would like to have you mark in the aerial shot the precise location of that building with the initials "TS."

(Witness marks.)

Mr. Specter. For the written part of our record will you describe how many stories high the Texas School Book Depository building is?

Mr. Kellerman. This is a seven-story building. From here it appears to be a rather square-type constructed.

Mr. Specter. All right. As you were proceeding in a generally northerly direction on Houston Street, can you describe the layout of the street, indicating first the approximate width of that street?

Mr. Kellerman. Houston Street is a rather wide city street similar to anything we have here in Washington, really, and being in the heart of the business section, I would say that it was a six-lane street at the time.

Mr. Specter. What was on your right as you proceeded down Houston Street?

Mr. Kellerman. The buildings.

Mr. Specter. And how about on your left?

Mr. Kellerman. On my left it was open.

Mr. Specter. As you turned left onto Elm Street, will you describe what was on your right?

Mr. Kellerman. As we turned left onto Elm Street and left this building that we are speaking of here——

Mr. Specter. Is that the Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mr. Kellerman. Yes; then your area became clear.

Mr. Specter. On the right?

Mr. Kellerman. On the right, sir. This was an open field area with a hill. Now, there were, if I recall correctly, just at the brink of the hill, right beyond this building in question, there was a small white—how can I describe it?

Mr. Specter. A little park area?

Mr. Kellerman. A little park area; that is right. And beyond it it was all open.

Mr. Specter. What was on your left at about that time as you proceeded down Elm Street?

Mr. Kellerman. Right. As we turned left on Elm Street off Houston, this, too, was a little plaza area, and kind of a triangular thing where the street was on the opposite side; this is an apparently one-way street, and directly to our left as we turned you had to view, this looked like a little one-story plaza building or structure.

Mr. Specter. To complete the scene, as you looked ahead of you down Elm Street what, if anything, did you see immediately in front of you?

Mr. Kellerman. Yes. First thing that I saw was that the road was going to turn, and then a little further ahead we had a viaduct which we were going under.

Mr. Specter. Do you know what name the Dallas Texans give to that viaduct?

Mr. Kellerman. No; I really don't.

Mr. Specter. Have you heard it described since as the triple overpass?

Mr. Kellerman. No; I haven't.

Mr. Specter. What was the approximate width of Elm Street in lanes of travel, if you recall?

73 Mr. Kellerman. It is at least three lanes, sir.

Mr. Specter. And describe the terrain, whether it was smooth, level or in what way you went as you went down Elm Street.

Mr. Kellerman. As we went down Elm Street, there was a smooth road and the terrain on each side was a grassy plotted area, a very cleared-off area, visibility tremendous.

Mr. Specter. And describe the composure of the crowds at that time.

Mr. Kellerman. As we turned north on to Houston Street, this was primarily the end of the crowd in Dallas, Tex.; in the downtown section, there were still a few on the sidewalk until we got to Elm Street. As we turned in a northerly direction to Elm Street, which would be on our left, then the crowds just diminished. They were spotty, standing on the grassy plot. They were not on the side of the street. In fact, there were just a matter of a handful, that was all, and we were through it.

Mr. Specter. Do you know what time it was when you got to the intersection of Houston and Elm on November 22?

Mr. Kellerman. Not at Houston and Elm; no. No; I don't.

Mr. Specter. What was the speed of the motorcade, Mr. Kellerman, as you were proceeding down Main Street at about the time you turned right onto Houston?

Mr. Kellerman. Ten, fifteen, no more; real parade speed.

Mr. Specter. How far ahead of you was the lead car at that time?

Mr. Kellerman. Again, it was four or five car lengths in front.

Mr. Specter. Do you know how far behind you the President's followup car was as you turned right onto Houston from Main Street?

Mr. Kellerman. No; I don't, but I am positive it was right on our rear wheels.

Mr. Specter. All right.

Now, as you turned left off Houston onto Elm, what is your best estimate of the speed of the President's automobile at that time?

Mr. Kellerman. As we turned onto Elm Street and the crowd, we were through the section of Dallas; we might have had—the driver picked it up because we were all through. Purely a guess, we could have been going at the most 25.

Mr. Specter. What would your estimate, your minimum estimate, of the speed be?

Mr. Kellerman. Fifteen.

Mr. Specter. As you turned left onto Elm Street, how far were you behind the lead car at that point?

Mr. Kellerman. I am going to say the same; three to five car lengths, but I can, to go a little further, I can see this car ahead of me. He is not running away from us.

Mr. Specter. How about the pilot car; was that car in sight?

Mr. Kellerman. No; that I didn't see; I didn't see it.

Mr. Specter. Do you know from your personal observation at the time you turned left onto Elm Street how far the President's followup car was behind you at that point?

Mr. Kellerman. Not from personal observation.

Mr. Specter. All right. Now, describe what occurred as you proceeded down Elm Street after turning off of Houston.

Mr. Kellerman. As we turned off Houston onto Elm and made the short little dip to the left going down grade, as I said, we were away from buildings, and were—there was a sign on the side of the road which I don't recall what it was or what it said, but we no more than passed that and you are out in the open, and there is a report like a firecracker, pop. And I turned my head to the right because whatever this noise was I was sure that it came from the right and perhaps into the rear, and as I turned my head to the right to view whatever it was or see whatever it was, I heard a voice from the back seat and I firmly believe it was the President's, "My God, I am hit," and I turned around and he has got his hands up here like this.

74 Mr. Specter. Indicating right hand up toward his neck?

Mr. Kellerman. That is right, sir. In fact, both hands were up in that direction.

Senator Cooper. Which side of his neck?

Mr. Kellerman. Beg pardon?

Senator Cooper. Which side of his neck?

Mr. Kellerman. Both hands were up, sir; this one is like this here and here we are with the hands——

Mr. Specter. Indicating the left hand is up above the head.

Mr. Kellerman. In the collar section.

Mr. Specter. As you are positioning yourself in the witness chair, your right hand is up with the finger at the ear level as if clutching from the right of the head; would that be an accurate description of the position you pictured there?

Mr. Kellerman. Yes. Good. There was enough for me to verify that the man was hit. So, in the same motion I come right back and grabbed the speaker and said to the driver, "Let's get out of here; we are hit," and grabbed the mike and I said, "Lawson, this is Kellerman,"—this is Lawson, who is in the front car. "We are hit; get us to the hospital immediately." Now, in the seconds that I talked just now, a flurry of shells come into the car. I then looked back and this time Mr. Hill, who was riding on the left front bumper of our followup car, was on the back trunk of that car; the President was sideways down into the back seat.

Mr. Specter. Indicating on his left side.

Mr. Kellerman. Right; just like I am here.

Mr. Specter. You mean, correct, left side?

Mr. Kellerman. Correct; yes, sir. Governor Connally by that time is lying flat backwards into her lap—Mrs. Connally—and she was lying flat over him.

Mr. Specter. Who was lying flat over him?

Mr. Kellerman. Mrs. Connally was lying flat over the Governor.

Mr. Specter. You say that you turned to your right immediately after you heard a shot?

Mr. Kellerman. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. What was the reason for your reacting to your right?

Mr. Kellerman. That was the direction that I heard this noise, pop.

Mr. Specter. Do you have a reaction as to the height from which the noise came?

Mr. Kellerman. No; honestly, I do not.

Representative Ford. Was there any reaction that you noticed on the part of Greer when the noise was noticed by you?

Mr. Kellerman. You are referring, Mr. Congressman, to the reaction to get this car out of there?

Representative Ford. Yes.

Mr. Kellerman. Mr. Congressman, I have driven that car many times, and I never cease to be amazed even to this day with the weight of the automobile plus the power that is under the hood; we just literally jumped out of the God-damn road.

Representative Ford. As soon as this noise was heard, or as soon as you transmitted this message to Lawson?

Mr. Kellerman. As soon as I transmitted to the driver first as I went to Lawson. I just leaned sideways to him and said, "Let's get out of here. We are hit."

Representative Ford. That comment was made to Greer; not to Lawson?

Mr. Kellerman. Yes, sir; that is right.

Representative Ford. And the subsequent message was to Lawson?

Mr. Kellerman. Correct. That is right.

Mr. Specter. With relationship to that first noise that you have described, when did you hear the voice?

Mr. Kellerman. His voice?

Mr. Specter. We will start with his voice.

Mr. Kellerman. OK. From the noise of which I was in the process of turning to determine where it was or what it was, it carried on right then. Why I75 am so positive, gentlemen, that it was his voice—there is only one man in that back seat that was from Boston, and the accents carried very clearly.

Mr. Specter. Well, had you become familiar with the President's voice prior to that day?

Mr. Kellerman. Yes; very much so.

Mr. Specter. And what was the basis for your becoming familiar with his voice prior to that day?

Mr. Kellerman. I had been with him for 3 years.

Mr. Specter. And had you talked with him on a very frequent basis during the course of that association?

Mr. Kellerman. He was a very free man to talk to; yes. He knew most all the men, most everybody who worked in the White House as well as everywhere, and he would call you.

Mr. Specter. And from your experience would you say that you could recognize the voice?

Mr. Kellerman. Very much, sir; I would.

Mr. Specter. Now, I think you may have answered this, but I want to pinpoint just when you heard that statement which you have attributed to President Kennedy in relationship to the sound which you described as a firecracker.

Mr. Kellerman. This noise which I attribute as a firecracker, when this occurred and I am in the process of determining where it comes because I am sure it came off my right rear somewhere; the voice broke in right then.

Mr. Specter. At about the same time?

Mr. Kellerman. That is correct, sir. That is right.

Mr. Specter. Now, did President Kennedy say anything beside, "My God, I am hit."

Mr. Kellerman. That is the last words he said, sir.

Mr. Specter. Did Mrs. Kennedy say anything at that specific time?

Mr. Kellerman. Mr. Specter, there was an awful lot of confusion in that back seat. She did a lot of talking which I can't recall all the phrases.

Mr. Specter. Well, pinpoint——

Mr. Kellerman. But after the flurry of shots, I recall her saying, "What are they doing to you?" Now again, of course, my comparison of the voice of her speech—certainly, I have heard it many times, and in the car there was conversation she was carrying on through shock, I am sure.

Mr. Specter. Well, going back to the precise time that you heard the President say, "My God, I am hit," do you recollect whether she said anything at that time?

Mr. Kellerman. No.

Mr. Specter. Whether or not you can re-create what she said?

Mr. Kellerman. Not that I can recall right then, sir. This statement, or whatever she said, happened after all the shooting was over.

Mr. Specter. All right. Now, you have described hearing a noise which sounded like a firecracker and you have described turning to your right and described hearing the President's voice and, again, what was your next motion, if any, or movement, if any?

Mr. Kellerman. After I was sure that his statement was right that he was hit, turned from the back I come right down——

Mr. Specter. You just indicated that you had turned to the left. Had you turned to the left after hearing his voice?

Mr. Kellerman. Yes; certainly.

Mr. Specter. And what did you see? You have described what you saw in terms of position of his hands.

Mr. Kellerman. That was it.

Mr. Specter. What did you do next?

Mr. Kellerman. That is when I completely turned to my right and grabbed for the mike in the same motion, sideways telling the driver, "Let's get out of here; we are hit."

Mr. Specter. Will you give us the best estimate of the lapse of time from the instant you heard the sound which appeared to you to be a firecracker until you instructed Mr. Greer in the way you have described?

Mr. Kellerman. Seconds.

76 Mr. Specter. How many seconds?

Mr. Kellerman. Three or four.

Mr. Specter. Now, how long did it take you to relay the instructions which you have told us about to Special Agent Lawson; what your best estimate would be?

Mr. Kellerman. Instant, in seconds again. Again it is three to five.

Mr. Specter. Now, in your prior testimony you described a flurry of shells into the car. How many shots did you hear after the first noise which you described as sounding like a firecracker?

Mr. Kellerman. Mr. Specter, these shells came in all together.

Mr. Specter. Are you able to say how many you heard?

Mr. Kellerman. I am going to say two, and it was like a double bang—bang, bang.

Mr. Specter. You mean now two shots in addition to the first noise?

Mr. Kellerman. Yes, sir; yes, sir; at least.

Mr. Specter. What is your best estimate of the time, in seconds, from the first noise sounding like a firecracker until the second noise which you heard?

Mr. Kellerman. This was instantaneous.

Mr. Specter. No; let me repeat the question so I am sure you understand it. From the time you first heard the noise coming to your right rear, which you described as sounding like a firecracker, until you heard the flurry of shots?

Mr. Kellerman. This is about how long it took, sir. As I am viewing, trying to determine this noise, I turned to my right and I heard the voice and I came back and I verify it and speak to the driver, grab the mike, these shots come in.

Mr. Specter. Well, you have described it as 3 to 4 seconds from the time——

Mr. Kellerman. No more.

Mr. Specter. From the time of the first noise—wait a minute—until you gave the instruction to Mr. Greer and then as you made the statement to Special Agent Lawson over the microphone that was an instantaneous timespan as you have described it.

Mr. Kellerman. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. How soon thereafter did the flurry of shots come?

Mr. Kellerman. They came in, Mr. Specter, while I am delivering that radio message.

Mr. Specter. To Mr. Lawson. All right. Was there any timespan which you could discern between the first and second shots and what you have described as the flurry?

Mr. Kellerman. I will estimate 5 seconds, if that.

Representative Ford. But this flurry took place while you were occupied with these other activities; is that correct?

Mr. Kellerman. That is right, sir.

Representative Ford. You don't recall precisely a second shot and a third shot such as you did in the case of the first?

Mr. Kellerman. Let me give you an illustration, sir, before I can give you an answer. You have heard the sound barrier, of a plane breaking the sound barrier, bang, bang? That is it.

Representative Ford. This is for the second and the third, or the flurry as you described it?

Mr. Kellerman. That is right; that is right, sir.

Mr. Specter. On your 5-second estimate, was that in reference, Mr. Kellerman, to the total timespan from the first noise until the flurry ended?

Mr. Kellerman. That is right; that is right.

Mr. Specter. All right. Now, when the flurry occurred then, were you still facing forward talking into the microphone to Lawson?

Mr. Kellerman. That is right.

Mr. Specter. All right. Then precisely what was your next movement after completing the delivery of that message to Lawson?

Mr. Kellerman. When I completed the delivery of those instructions to Lawson, I just hung up the receiver and looked back.

Mr. Specter. To your right this time—to your left; pardon me.

Mr. Kellerman. To my left; that is right. This is when I first viewed Mr. Hill, who was on the back of the——

77 Mr. Specter. Precisely where was he in that instant?

Mr. Kellerman. Lying right across the trunk of the car with Mrs. Kennedy on the left rear. Mr. Hill's head was right up in back of her.

Mr. Specter. When you describe the left rear you mean as the car was facing?

Mr. Kellerman. As the car is traveling, sir; yes, sir. He was lying across the trunk of this car, feet on this side.

Mr. Specter. Was he flat across the trunk of the car?

Mr. Kellerman. Flat; that is right.

Mr. Specter. What was the position of Mrs. Kennedy's body at that time?

Mr. Kellerman. She was sitting up in the corner of this back seat, like this.

Mr. Specter. So that she was on the buttocks area of her body at that time?

Mr. Kellerman. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. And what movement, if any, did you observe Mrs. Kennedy make at that time?

Mr. Kellerman. I never did see Mrs. Kennedy leave that back seat, sir.

Mr. Specter. When you say the back seat, are you referring——

Mr. Kellerman. The seat she was sitting on.

Mr. Specter. Are you referring to the seat itself of the automobile?

Mr. Kellerman. Right.

Mr. Specter. Where did you look next; what did you observe following that?

Mr. Kellerman. Then I observed how the President was lying, which was—he was—flat in the seat in this direction.

Mr. Specter. On his left-hand side?

Mr. Kellerman. Yes, sir. Governor Connally was lying straight on his back with Mrs. Connally over him about halfway.

Mr. Specter. Did Governor Connally say anything up to this point?

Mr. Kellerman. No.

Mr. Specter. Did Mrs. Connally say anything up to that point?

Mr. Kellerman. No.

Mr. Specter. When was it that Mrs. Kennedy made the statement which you have described, "My God, what are they doing?"

Mr. Kellerman. This occurred after the flurry of shots.

Mr. Specter. At that time you looked back and saw Special Agent Hill across the trunk of the car, had your automobile accelerated by that time?

Mr. Kellerman. Tremendously so; yes.

Mr. Specter. Now, to the best of your ability to recollect, exactly when did your automobile first accelerate?

Mr. Kellerman. Our car accelerated immediately on the time—at the time—this flurry of shots came into it.

Mr. Specter. Would you say the acceleration——

Mr. Kellerman. Between the second and third shot.

Senator Cooper. Might I ask a question there?

Mr. Specter. Yes.

Senator Cooper. A few minutes ago you said in response to a question that when you spoke to the driver the car leaped forward from an acceleration immediately. Did that acceleration occur before the second shot was fired?

Mr. Kellerman. Yes, sir. Just about the time that it came in.

Senator Cooper. About the time it came in?

Mr. Kellerman. Yes, sir.

Senator Cooper. Not before?

Mr. Kellerman. No.

Senator Cooper. One other question: You said the flurry of shots came in the car. You were leaning forward talking to the driver after the first shot. What made you aware of a flurry of shots?

Mr. Kellerman. Senator, between all the matter that was—between all the matter that was blown off from an injured person, this stuff all came over.

Senator Cooper. What was that?

Mr. Kellerman. Body matter; flesh.

Senator Cooper. When you were speaking of a flurry of shots, was there a longer interval between the first shot and the second shot as compared to the interval between the second shot and the third shot?

Mr. Kellerman. Yes, sir.

78 Mr. Specter. When did you first notice the substance which you have described as body matter?

Mr. Kellerman. When I got to the hospital, sir, it was all over my coat.

Mr. Specter. Did you notice it flying past you at any time prior to your arrival at the hospital?

Mr. Kellerman. Yes; I know there was something in the air.

Mr. Specter. When, in relation to the shots, Mr. Kellerman, did you notice the substance in the air?

Mr. Kellerman. Fine. When I have given the orders to Mr. Lawson, this is when it all came between the driver and myself.

Mr. Specter. Can you describe what it was in a little more detail as it appeared to you at that time?

Mr. Kellerman. This is a rather poor comparison, but let's say you take a little handful of matter—I am going to use sawdust for want of a better item—and just throw it.

Mr. Specter. Can you describe the sound of the flurry of shots by way of distinction with the way you have described the sound of the first shot?

Mr. Kellerman. Well, having heard all types of guns fired, most of them, rather, if I recall correctly these were two sharp reports, sir. Again, I am going to refer to it as like a plane going through a sound barrier; bang, bang.

Mr. Specter. Now, you are referring to the flurry?

Mr. Kellerman. That is right.

Mr. Specter. Did it sound differently from the first noise you have described as being a firecracker?

Mr. Kellerman. Yes; definitely; very much so.

Representative Ford. Was there any other noise going on at the time of the second and third shots different from the noise of the crowd or otherwise at the time of the first shot?

Mr. Kellerman. We had no crowd, sir. There was nothing there.

Representative Ford. So the external noise was identical as far as the——

Mr. Kellerman. Very much.

Representative Ford. First or second or the third shot?

Mr. Kellerman. Yes, sir. We are in an open-field area, so to speak, and everything was just clear.

Representative Ford. So there was no other sound that would have disturbed your hearing capability from the first through the third shot?

Mr. Kellerman. That is right; no other shot.

Representative Ford. Your only problem would be your personal activity after the first shot.

Mr. Kellerman. Correct.

Representative Ford. Your activity of speaking to Greer and talking to Lawson?

Mr. Kellerman. That is correct, sir; yes, sir.

Representative Ford. Was there any crowd reaction?

Mr. Kellerman. There was no crowd.

Representative Ford. There were a few stragglers?

Mr. Kellerman. A handful, and I didn't view any reaction, sir.

Representative Ford. All right.

Mr. Specter. Mr. Kellerman, you said earlier that there were at least two additional shots. Is there any area in your mind or possibility, as you recollect that situation, that there could have been more than two shots, or are you able to say with any certainty?

Mr. Kellerman. I am going to say that I have, from the firecracker report and the two other shots that I know, those were three shots. But, Mr. Specter, if President Kennedy had from all reports four wounds, Governor Connally three, there have got to be more than three shots, gentlemen.

Senator Cooper. What is that answer? What did he say?

Mr. Specter. Will you repeat that, Mr. Kellerman?

Mr. Kellerman. President Kennedy had four wounds, two in the head and shoulder and the neck. Governor Connally, from our reports, had three. There have got to be more than three shots.

Representative Ford. Is that why you have described——

79 Mr. Kellerman. The flurry.

Representative Ford. The noise as a flurry?

Mr. Kellerman. That is right, sir.

Mr. Specter. Excuse me, do you have any independent recollection, Mr. Kellerman, of the number of shots, aside from the inference that you make as to how many points of wounds there were?

Mr. Kellerman. Could you rephrase that, please?

Mr. Specter. Yes. You have drawn a conclusion, in effect, by saying that there were four wounds for the President and three wounds for the Governor; and from that, you say there must have been more than three shots in your opinion or your view. But my question is: Do you have any current recollection of having heard more than three shots?

Mr. Kellerman. No. I don't. I will have to say "No."

Senator Cooper. Has that been your recollection from the very time of the shooting?

Mr. Kellerman. No, sir; it has been my opinion.

Senator Cooper. Not your opinion, but from the time of the shooting you think then that you heard only three shots, or did you——

Mr. Kellerman. Yes.

Senator Cooper. Or did you ever think that you heard more than three?

Mr. Kellerman. No, sir; I can't say that, sir.

Mr. Specter. Now, you referred to four wounds, Mr. Kellerman, realizing, of course, your characterization is only lay opinion.

Mr. Kellerman. Very true.

Mr. Specter. Would you tell us which wounds you made reference to by that statement, please?

Mr. Kellerman. All right. Can I keep the train going from the time we got to the hospital?

Mr. Specter. Yes, sir; do it in your own way just as you please.

Mr. Kellerman. Fine. As we arrived at the hospital I immediately got out of the car. Our followup car is in back of us, as you will recall. I yelled to the agents, "Get in"—"Go get us two stretchers on wheels."

In the meantime in a matter of seconds—I don't know how they got out so fast—I turned right around to the back door and opened it. By this time Mrs. Connally had raised up, and the Governor is lying in her lap, face up. His eyes are open and he is looking at me, and I am fairly sure he is alive. By this time I noticed the two stretchers coming out of the emergency room, and I said to the Governor, I said, "Governor, don't worry; everything is going to be all right." And he nodded his head, which I was fairly convinced that that man was alive.

By this time the stretcher is there. I get inside on one side of him, and Special Agent Hill on the other. Somebody is holding his feet, and we remove the Governor and put him on the stretcher and they take him in.

We then get in and help Mrs. Connally out. Our next move is to get Mrs. Kennedy off from the seat, which was a little difficult, but she was removed. Then Mr. Hill removed his coat and laid it over the President's face and shoulder. He and I among two other people—I don't know—we lifted up the President and put him on a stretcher and followed him right into the emergency room.

Gentlemen, this emergency room is a, it looks like a, checkerboard; it has a walkway down the center and a crossway and there are rooms on each side. President Kennedy was put into the one on the right, Governor Connally across on the left. And as we pushed the wheelchair in—we pushed the stretcher inside, the medical people just seemed to form right in, right there, and I walked around him and I wanted to look at this man's face, they had him face up.

Senator Cooper. The President?

Mr. Kellerman. The President; I am sorry. I did not see any wounds in that man's face.

Mr. Specter. Indicating with your hand at that moment the front part of his face?

Mr. Kellerman. Right, sir.

80 Mr. Specter. May I interrupt you just to ask whether you had any view——

Mr. Kellerman. Surely.

Mr. Specter. Of the rear part of his head?

Mr. Kellerman. I did not, sir.

Mr. Specter. What was the rearmost or uppermost portion of President Kennedy's head which you could observe at that time?

Mr. Kellerman. It was the hairline to the ear, sir.

Mr. Specter. Proceed.

Mr. Kellerman. Having all the medical people in there, my business is left in their hands. So I left. Mrs. Kennedy, incidentally, was still in there.

Mr. Specter. In where, sir?

Mr. Kellerman. In the emergency room with him. Which after a few minutes they convinced her to leave, and she sat outside the room while they were working over the President. I walked into this center area of this emergency room—and I am looking for a telephone—which there is a little doctor's office and I walked inside, and I am alone at that time, except one medic who was in there. There are two phones and I said, "Can I use either one of these phones to get outside?" and he said, "Yes; just pick one up."

By this time Mr. Lawson enters and also Mr. Hill. I asked Mr. Lawson for the telephone number of the Dallas White House switchboard. He immediately has it and I said to Mr. Hill, "Will you dial it, please?" By that time a medic comes into the room from President Kennedy's section and he asks if anybody knows the blood type of the President—President Kennedy. We all carry it. I produce mine, and that is what I believe they used; I am not sure. By this time the connection is made with the White House operator in Dallas, and I took the phone, identified myself, and I said, "Give me Washington. Please don't pull this line; let's leave it open."

I got the Washington operator and I said, identified myself, and I said, "Give me Mr. Behn."

Mr. Behn was in the office at the time, and I said—his name is Gerald Behn—and I said, "Gerry, we have had an incident here in Dallas. The President, the Governor have been shot. We are in the emergency room of the Parkland Memorial Hospital." I said, "Mark down the time." Of course, since that time until now we have disagreed on about 3 minutes. I said it is 12:38, which would be 1:38 Dallas time. I am sorry—Washington time.

Mr. Specter. Was that at the time you were talking to Mr. Behn?

Mr. Kellerman. To Mr. Behn; yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. And your version is that it is 12:38 Dallas time?

Mr. Kellerman. 12:38. He said it was 12:41; he told me the next day.

Mr. Specter. May I interrupt you there for you to tell us how long after you arrived at the hospital did you make that telephone call to Mr. Behn, to the best of your recollection?

Mr. Kellerman. Three to five minutes.

Mr. Specter. All right. The topic we are on now, Mr. Kellerman, is your own way of relating the description of the wounds, starting with four wounds on President Kennedy.

Mr. Kellerman. Right; OK.

Mr. Specter. Proceed, then.

Mr. Kellerman. I can eclipse an awful lot here and get into the morgue here in Bethesda, because that is where I looked him over.

Mr. Specter. I will come back and pick up some of the other detail.

Mr. Kellerman. Fine.

Mr. Specter. But for the sequence at the moment, as it relates to your conclusions on the shots which you have already testified about——

Mr. Kellerman. OK.

Mr. Specter. I would like to develop your understanding and your observations of the four wounds on President Kennedy.

Mr. Kellerman. OK. This all transpired in the morgue of the Naval Hospital in Bethesda, sir. He had a large wound this size.

Mr. Specter. Indicating a circle with your finger of the diameter of 5 inches; would that be approximately correct?

Mr. Kellerman. Yes, circular; yes, on this part of the head.

81 Mr. Specter. Indicating the rear portion of the head.

Mr. Kellerman. Yes.

Mr. Specter. More to the right side of the head?

Mr. Kellerman. Right. This was removed.

Mr. Specter. When you say, "This was removed," what do you mean by this?

Mr. Kellerman. The skull part was removed.

Mr. Specter. All right.

Representative Ford. Above the ear and back?

Mr. Kellerman. To the left of the ear, sir, and a little high; yes. About right in here.

Mr. Specter. When you say "removed," by that do you mean that it was absent when you saw him, or taken off by the doctor?

Mr. Kellerman. It was absent when I saw him.

Mr. Specter. Fine. Proceed.

Mr. Kellerman. Entry into this man's head was right below that wound, right here.

Mr. Specter. Indicating the bottom of the hairline immediately to the right of the ear about the lower third of the ear?

Mr. Kellerman. Right. But it was in the hairline, sir.

Mr. Specter. In his hairline?

Mr. Kellerman. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. Near the end of his hairline?

Mr. Kellerman. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. What was the size of that aperture?

Mr. Kellerman. The little finger.

Mr. Specter. Indicating the diameter of the little finger.

Mr. Kellerman. Right.

Mr. Specter. Now, what was the position of that opening with respect to the portion of the skull which you have described as being removed or absent?

Mr. Kellerman. Well, I am going to have to describe it similar to this. Let's say part of your skull is removed here; this is below.

Mr. Specter. You have described a distance of approximately an inch and a half, 2 inches, below.

Mr. Kellerman. That is correct; about that, sir.

Mr. Specter. All right. What other wounds, if any, did you notice on the President?

Mr. Kellerman. The other wound that I noticed was on his shoulder.

Mr. Specter. Which shoulder.

Mr. Kellerman. Right shoulder.

Mr. Specter. And was it—what was its general position with respect to the breadth of the back?

Mr. Kellerman. Right straight.

Mr. Specter. No. Upper shoulder, lower shoulder; how far below the lower neckline would you say?

Mr. Kellerman. The upper neckline, sir, in that large muscle between the shoulder and the neck, just below it.

Mr. Specter. What was the size of that opening?

Mr. Kellerman. Again about the size of a little finger.

Mr. Specter. Now, have you described three wounds which you have observed?

Mr. Kellerman. That is three. The fourth one I will have to collaborate with—the medical people in Dallas said that he had entry in the throat or an exit.

Mr. Specter. Now, you are indicating a part on the throat right underneath your tie as you sit there, the knot of your tie.

Mr. Kellerman. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. Who told you that?

Mr. Kellerman. This comes from a report from Dr. Kemp Clark.

Mr. Specter. Did you talk to Dr. Clark personally?

Mr. Kellerman. I did not. This is a written report.

Mr. Specter. This is a written report which you have read?

Mr. Kellerman. Yes; that is right.

82 Mr. Specter. Do you have any knowledge of that wound on the front side aside from the written report of Dr. Kemp Clark?

Mr. Kellerman. Except that in the morgue it was very visible that they had incisioned him here to insert the tracheotomy that they performed on him.

Mr. Specter. So with the operative procedures to perform a tracheotomy, was there anything, in your view, left of the original entry?

Mr. Kellerman. No.

Mr. Specter. Entry or exit that you have described.

Mr. Kellerman. No, sir.

Mr. Specter. All you could see at that point was the operative procedure, the cutting of the surgeon's blade in Dallas?

Mr. Kellerman. That is right.

Senator Cooper. You are saying this, then, that you did not see, yourself, at any time the mark of any wound in his neck front?

Mr. Kellerman. When we took him into the hospital in Dallas; that is right.

Senator Cooper. What?

Mr. Kellerman. That is right; when we took him in the hospital in Dallas, I did not.

Senator Cooper. Did you ever see it?

Mr. Kellerman. Only after he was opened up in the morgue; yes, sir.

Senator Cooper. You saw some indication or some mark of a wound in the front of his neck?

Mr. Kellerman. Senator, from the report of the doctor who worked on him in Dallas, that he enlarged the incision here in his throat to perform that tracheotomy, and I believe in his own statement that that wound was there prior to this incision.

Senator Cooper. I know, but I am asking——

Mr. Kellerman. I didn't see it, sir.

Senator Cooper. What you saw yourself?

Mr. Kellerman. No; I didn't.

Representative Ford. Was that because Hill had thrown his coat over the President, or just didn't see the skin or the body at the time?

Mr. Kellerman. No, sir. When I—that coat was thrown over, sir, to eliminate any gruesome pictures.

Representative Ford. How far over that body? Did it go over the head only or down the chest?

Mr. Kellerman. No; the whole coat went all the way down to the waistline, sir.

Mr. Specter. You saw the President's face, though, at a later time as you have described?

Mr. Kellerman. Yes, thank you. This I had lost track of, to help you out, Mr. Congressman. While he lay on the stretcher in that emergency room his collar and everything is up and I saw nothing in his face to indicate an injury, whether the shot had come through or not. He was clear.

Representative Ford. But while he was on the stretcher in the emergency room you saw his face?

Mr. Kellerman. That is right.

Representative Ford. But he had his tie and his collar still——

Mr. Kellerman. Still on.

Representative Ford. Still on?

Mr. Kellerman. Yes, sir.

Representative Ford. You never saw his neck?

Mr. Kellerman. No, sir.

Representative Ford. At that time?

Mr. Kellerman. At that time, I did not observe him.

Representative Ford. The only time you saw him was later at the morgue?

Mr. Kellerman. Very much, sir.

Mr. Specter. Did you observe any blood on the portion of his body in the neck area or anyplace in the front of his body?

Mr. Kellerman. I don't recall any.

83 Mr. Specter. Did you observe any hole in the clothing of the President on the front part, in the shirt or tie area?

Mr. Kellerman. No, sir.

Mr. Specter. From your observation of the wound which you observed in the morgue which you have described as a tracheotomy, would that have been above or below the shirtline when the President was clothed?

Mr. Kellerman. It would have been below the shirtline, sir.

Mr. Specter. Now, have you described all of the wounds of the President to which you have referred?

Mr. Kellerman. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. Will you describe the three wounds which I believe you said Governor Connally sustained?

Mr. Kellerman. I am going to refer to the medical report on Governor Connally, wherein they said one wound was in his right back——

Mr. Specter. Indicating the upper shoulder area?

Mr. Kellerman. Yes, sir. One went through his wrist.

Mr. Specter. Indicating the right wrist.

Mr. Kellerman. I am using the numbers, and he was—a missile went into his thigh somewhere.

Mr. Specter. Do you know anything about Governor Connally's wounds aside from what you read in the medical report?

Mr. Kellerman. No; not personally.

Mr. Specter. Do you have any independent knowledge of which wrist and which thigh, aside from what you read in the medical reports themselves?

Mr. Kellerman. Yes, sir; I do, I talked to the Governor several times later, and it is the right wrist, sir.

Mr. Specter. It is the right wrist?

Mr. Kellerman. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. And which thigh?

Mr. Kellerman. It would be the left one.

Representative Ford. Is this a good point for a recess?

Mr. Specter. This is fine.

Representative Ford. We will take a 5-minute break.

(Short recess.)

Representative Ford. The Commission will resume, and will you proceed, Mr. Specter, please?

Mr. Specter. Yes sir. One of your last answers was that the position of the wounds on Governor Connally was ascertained from a conversation between you and Governor Connally, as well as from the medical reports themselves. Is that correct?

Mr. Kellerman. No; it is really not.

Mr. Specter. Then tell us what your basis is for your testimony on Governor Connally's wounds.

Mr. Kellerman. I have never conversed with the Governor as to his other wounds outside of his wrist. Your medical report on Governor Connally which indicate the shoulder wound, wrist, and in the thigh.

Mr. Specter. When did you have occasion to talk to him about his wrist wound?

Mr. Kellerman. Over the holidays in Texas, sir.

Mr. Specter. The Christmas holidays?

Mr. Kellerman. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. Have you now told us everything you know, either from conversations or reports, about the wounds of Governor Connally?

Mr. Kellerman. That is right; yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. All right. Were you able to observe at the time of the shooting and immediately thereafter, as Governor Connally went into the hospital, any of his specific wounds?

Mr. Kellerman. Only of the—I am presuming now of the hand because, when he was lying, he had it across his stomach here, and it was rather bloody.

Mr. Specter. And was it the hand that was bloody, the stomach, or both?

Mr. Kellerman. I would say so right now; yes.

Mr. Specter. Which?

84 Mr. Kellerman. The hand.

Mr. Specter. Was the stomach bloody at all?

Mr. Kellerman. Not that I remember.

Mr. Specter. Do you have anything to add, Mr. Kellerman, on the total number of wounds in relationship to your view that there were more than three shots?

Mr. Kellerman. Well, let's consider the vehicle.

Mr. Specter. Fine. What about the vehicle would you consider relevant in this regard?

Mr. Kellerman. The windshield itself, which I observed a day or two after the funeral here, had been hit by a piece of this missile or missiles, whatever it is, shell.

Mr. Specter. While you are referring to the windshield, permit me to hand you a photograph marked Commission Exhibit 349 and ask if you can tell us what that photograph depicts?

Mr. Kellerman. This photograph is the windshield of the Presidential special automobile that we used in Dallas on November 22. And it depicts a hit by some instrument on the metal railing that covers the windshield.

Mr. Specter. In what position is the hit on that metal railing?

Mr. Kellerman. Directly to the right of the mirror.

Mr. Specter. Is that on the top of the windshield?

Mr. Kellerman. That is on the top of the windshield. I am sorry; this is not the windshield itself; this is the top of the vehicle. This is the framework.

Mr. Specter. Would you draw a red arrow with the pen that you have to the mark which you have just described?

(Mr. Kellerman marked the photograph.)

Mr. Specter. Now, when did you first observe that indentation?

Mr. Kellerman. This was observed a day or two after the funeral, which funeral was the 25th of November; this would be upward of the 27th.

Mr. Specter. Where was the automobile at the time you observed that indentation?

Mr. Kellerman. At the White House garage, sir.

Mr. Specter. Was the windshield in the automobile at that time?

Mr. Kellerman. Yes, sir; it was in the automobile.

Mr. Specter. Did you observe or notice that indentation in the windshield when you were in Dallas after the shooting occurred?

Mr. Kellerman. No, sir.

Mr. Specter. Did you observe or notice that indentation before the shooting occurred?

Mr. Kellerman. No, sir.

Mr. Specter. Are you able to state positively whether or not that indentation was present before the shooting?

Mr. Kellerman. No, sir.

Mr. Specter. So that you observed it on the first occasion when you saw the car in the White House garage on or about November 27; is that correct?

Mr. Kellerman. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Specter. The indentation could conceivably have been present before the shooting?

Mr. Kellerman. It could have; yes.

Mr. Specter. But you didn't observe it before the shooting?

Mr. Kellerman. I did not.

Mr. Specter. And did you not observe it in Dallas after the shooting?

Mr. Kellerman. That is right; I did not.

Mr. Specter. Did you have any occasion to examine closely the windshield area after the assassination in Dallas?

Mr. Kellerman. No, sir.

Mr. Specter. Did you have any occasion to examine closely the windshield at any time after the assassination until you saw the car in the garage on or about November 27?

Mr. Kellerman. No, sir; I have not.

Mr. Specter. Would you describe for the record where that indentation occurs or is placed?

85 Mr. Kellerman. This indentation is placed on the metal-bar framework which is across the top of the windshield. The indentation is directly to the right of the mirror holder.

Mr. Specter. Is that on the inside or the outside of the car?

Mr. Kellerman. This is on the inside of the car.

Representative Ford. What prompted you to make that investigation on or about November 27?

Mr. Kellerman. First, Mr. Congressman, I wanted to look this car over for—let me go back a little bit. When this car was checked over that night for its return to Washington, I was informed the following day of the pieces of these missiles that were found in the front seat, and I believe aside from the skull, that was in the rear seat, I couldn't conceive even from elevation how this shot hit President Kennedy like it did. I wanted to view this vehicle, whether this was a slant blow off the car, whether it hit the car first and then hit him, or what other marks are on this vehicle, and that is what prompted me to go around and check it over myself.

Representative Ford. Had anybody told you of this indentation prior to your own personal investigation?

Mr. Kellerman. Not of the windshield; no, sir.

Representative Ford. You were the first one to find this indentation?

Mr. Kellerman. I believe I am the first one who noticed this thing up on the bar.

Representative Ford. That is what I meant.

Mr. Kellerman. Yes, sir.

Representative Ford. You are the first one to notice this particular indentation?

Mr. Kellerman. Yes; I believe I am, sir.

Representative Ford. All right.

Mr. Specter. Did you have occasion to examine the windshield or the framework closely before the assassination, either in Dallas or in Washington?

Mr. Kellerman. No; I honestly didn't.

Mr. Specter. Mr. Chairman, I move for the admission to evidence of Exhibit No. 349.

Representative Ford. It will be so admitted.

(The document referred to, heretofore marked Commission Exhibit No. 349 for identification, was received in evidence.)

Mr. Specter. Now I hand to Mr. Kellerman, through the Chairman, Commission Exhibit No. 350, and ask you to describe what this picture represents?

Mr. Kellerman. This picture represents the windshield of the President's special automobile as we are looking into it. This is an outside photo. My reason for this is that on inspection there is a—the windshield has been struck by an instrument and it has been cracked. This crack is opposite the mirror facing the driver would be toward the driver, to the right of the mirror, and——

Mr. Specter. The photograph, Exhibit 350, is from the outside of the car front looking toward the car; correct?

Mr. Kellerman. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. What mark, if any, appears in the photograph on the windshield itself?

Mr. Kellerman. There is the cracked windshield located to the right of the mirror as you look into the automobile.

Mr. Specter. That would be on the driver's side, as you previously stated?

Mr. Kellerman. Yes, sir; on the driver's side of the vehicle.

Mr. Specter. Now, is this picture an accurate representation of the appearance of the windshield at some time when you observed the windshield?

Mr. Kellerman. This windshield I observed on this same day.

Mr. Specter. On or about November 27, 1963?

Mr. Kellerman. That is correct.

Mr. Specter. Does that picture accurately represent what the windshield looked like on that day when you observed it?

Mr. Kellerman. Yes, sir; it is.

Mr. Specter. Did you observe any crack in the windshield as the President's86 automobile was being driven from the point of assassination to the hospital?

Mr. Kellerman. I did not.

Mr. Specter. Did you observe it at any time prior to the time you saw the automobile in the White House garage on or before November 27?

Mr. Kellerman. I did not, sir.

Mr. Specter. Did you have any occasion to examine closely the windshield after the time of the shooting up until the time you saw it in the White House garage?

Mr. Kellerman. No, sir.

Mr. Specter. Now, at the time of your examination of the windshield in the White House garage, did you feel the windshield?

Mr. Kellerman. On the day that I visited the White House garage and checked this car over for my own personal reasons, and this windshield crack was pointed out to me, I did——

Mr. Specter. When you say it was pointed out to you, by whom?

Mr. Kellerman. There were other people in the garage, Mr. Specter, like Mr. Kinney, I believe was there at the time, Special Agent Henry Rybka was the other person.

Mr. Specter. Was it sufficiently prominent without having to have it pointed out specially?

Mr. Kellerman. Oh, yes; very much. And I felt this windshield both inwardly and outwardly to determine first if there was something that was struck from the back of us or—and I was satisfied that it was.

Mr. Specter. When you say struck from in back of you, do you mean on the inside or outside of the windshield?

Mr. Kellerman. Inside, sir.

Mr. Specter. Inside of the car?

Mr. Kellerman. Right.

Mr. Specter. Did you have occasion to feel the outside of the windshield?

Mr. Kellerman. I did on that day; yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. What did you feel, if anything?

Mr. Kellerman. Not a thing; it was real smooth.

Mr. Specter. Did you have occasion to feel the inside of the windshield?

Mr. Kellerman. I did.

Mr. Specter. How did that feel to you?

Mr. Kellerman. My comparison was that the broken glass, broken windshield, there was enough little roughness in there from the cracks and split that I was positive, or it was my belief, that whatever hit it came into the inside of the car.

Mr. Specter. I move for the admission into evidence of Exhibit No. 350.

Representative Ford. It will be so admitted.

(The document referred to, heretofore marked Commission Exhibit No. 350 for identification, was received in evidence.)

Mr. Specter. I now call the attention of the Commission to Exhibit No. 351, which is the windshield itself which, as the Commission may observe, is present in the hearing room. Now, with reference to Exhibit No. 351, which is a marking placed over a glass object, Mr. Kellerman, can you describe for the Commission what that is?

Mr. Kellerman. Yes; this windshield, which has since been removed from the vehicle, at the time I first viewed it, this area marked in here was all that was cracked. These are later splints.

Mr. Specter. Before you proceed, Mr. Kellerman, do you have knowledge as to the general removal procedure during which this windshield was taken from the President's car?

Mr. Kellerman. I believe I do not. However, I believe Mr. Greer would be able to identify it better than I, on the removal side.

Mr. Specter. Would you describe the condition of the windshield in its present state as we are viewing it here this morning?

Mr. Kellerman. The windshield this morning has—has been hit by some object with sufficient force——

Mr. Specter. Perhaps we ought to start with the point of impact, Mr. Kellerman. First, are you able to positively identify this as the windshield from the President's automobile?

87 Mr. Kellerman. Yes, sir; I would say it was, sir.

Mr. Specter. Is this the same windshield as depicted in Exhibits 349 and 350?

Mr. Kellerman. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. All right. Now, starting with the principal point of impact, where does that exist on this windshield?

Mr. Kellerman. The principal point of impact is located to the left of the mirror, to the right above the driver's head, and to the right of his, I am going to say, view line.

Mr. Specter. As we view the windshield at this time, state whether or not there are spidering lines which have emanated from that point which you have described as the principal point of impact?

Mr. Kellerman. The spidering lines which extend in three different directions—you are speaking of the large ones or the others?

Mr. Specter. Well, I want to put on this record all of the spidering lines which exist here.

Mr. Kellerman. OK; the spidering lines which are in this encircled area reflect, in my opinion, that when the instrument hit this glass it shattered in half a dozen different ways.

Mr. Specter. Well now, with respect to the cracks themselves, is there a crack which goes in a generally upwardly direction slanting off in the general direction of the driver?

Mr. Kellerman. In the center of this, the impact of the center of this scratch, one goes directly to the top of the windshield.

Mr. Specter. On that line itself, is there a further splintering off of that line at another point?

Mr. Kellerman. It then continues on a small leg, a straight leg, about 3 inches from the original direction.

Mr. Specter. And is there a change of direction at that point, or a bifurcation, dividing it into two parts?

Mr. Kellerman. No.

Mr. Specter. Well, you have described in a generally upwardly direction of about 3 inches?

Mr. Kellerman. Yes.

Mr. Specter. And is there not a crack which then extends all the way to the top of the windshield moving, in the direction of the left side of the windshield from the driver facing it?

Mr. Kellerman. That is right. There is a complete crack from this so-called cutoff to the top right of the windshield right above the view line of the driver.

Mr. Specter. Taking that from a compass reading, would that be in a generally northeasterly direction?

Mr. Kellerman. Yes, sir; northeasterly.

Mr. Specter. All right. From a point 3 inches from the center crack, which we described as the principal point of impact, then, does there form a point of crack in a V-direction with the line you have already described?

Mr. Kellerman. Yes; there does. There is a small splint, about 2 inches, that heads directly north off from this splinter that goes in a northeasterly direction.

Mr. Specter. All right. Now, moving in a clockwise direction.

Mr. Kellerman. In a clockwise direction.

Mr. Specter. What crack do you observe, if any?

Mr. Kellerman. I next observe on the eastward side of this center crack a splint of about 3 inches long, which then makes a sharp veer to the southeast to the bottom of the windshield.

Mr. Specter. Now, moving further in a clockwise direction, what crack do you next observe emanating from the central point of impact?

Mr. Kellerman. The next crack from the central point of impact extends down about 3 inches, to the southeast, and then veers to a sharp southeast to the bottom of the windshield.

Mr. Specter. Now, moving further in a clockwise direction.

Mr. Kellerman. From this point——

Mr. Specter. Let's continue to move from the central point of impact to88 finish up what divergent cracks there are from the central point of impact. Is there one other?

Mr. Kellerman. There is one other point left. This is completely in a westerly direction about 3 inches from the center of impact, which then veers to the northwest to the top of the windshield.

Mr. Specter. Are there other cracks in the windshield?

Mr. Kellerman. There is one other splint, which is from the southeasterly leg——

Mr. Specter. That would be southwesterly leg.

Mr. Kellerman. Southwesterly leg—I am sorry—that drops to within an inch of the bottom of the windshield, whereby another splint travels in a northwesterly direction to about halfway of the windshield.

Mr. Specter. Now, have you described all of the visible cracks in the windshield?

Mr. Kellerman. That has completed it, sir.

Mr. Specter. As you have viewed this windshield, have you looked at it from the outside looking in or the inside looking out?

Mr. Kellerman. I have been looking from the outside looking in.

Mr. Specter. Where you would have been if you had been, say, on the front hood of the car when the windshield was in place on the automobile?

Mr. Kellerman. I would have been—pardon?

Mr. Specter. On the hood of the car?

Mr. Kellerman. On the hood of the car this would have been facing me as it is sitting here today.

Mr. Specter. Have there been any measures taken to protect the outer edges of this windshield in its position here in the hearing room?

Mr. Kellerman. Yes. A form of protective tape has been placed around the entire windshield to protect it, to keep it intact.

Mr. Specter. Are there any differences in the cracks on the windshield today as it sits in our hearing room from its condition when you observed it on or about November 27, 1963?

Mr. Kellerman. Yes, sir. From the point of impact the four cracks that looked in the four directions were the only ones on this windshield.

Mr. Specter. Is there any marking in color or otherwise on that piece of the windshield?

Mr. Kellerman. There has been a yellow crayon marking the circumference of these four cracks, apparently before the windshield was removed from the automobile.

Mr. Specter. Is that yellow or red?

Mr. Kellerman. It is red.

Mr. Specter. Were the cracks present within the circumference of that marking present at the time you observed the windshield on or about November 27?

Mr. Kellerman. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. Were any of the other marks present when you observed the windshield on or about November 27?

Mr. Kellerman. No, sir.

Mr. Specter. Would you at this time feel the outside of the windshield and describe what, if anything, you feel at the point of impact?

Mr. Kellerman. The outside markings from the point of impact, the extended lines——

Mr. Specter. Mr. Kellerman. I would like for you at this time to actually touch the outside and tell me, first of all, if it is the same or if it differs in any way from the sense of feel which you noted when you touched it on or about November 27?

Mr. Kellerman. As I touch the outside on the impact, it would be the same as I noticed on the 27th of November.

Mr. Specter. What do you notice, if anything?

Mr. Kellerman. It is a smooth surface without any——

Mr. Specter. Without any—finish your answer.

Mr. Kellerman. On the inside.

Mr. Specter. No; before. It is a smooth surface without any what?

89 Mr. Kellerman. Without any crack lines.

Mr. Specter. On the outside?

Mr. Kellerman. That can be felt.

Mr. Specter. On the outside?

Mr. Kellerman. That is right; on the outside of the windshield.

Mr. Specter. Feel the inside and tell us, first of all, whether it is the same or different from the way you touched it on November 27?

Mr. Kellerman. On November 27, when I felt the inside of this impact area, I was convinced that I could—that I felt an opening in one of these lines, which was indicative to me that the blow was struck from the inside of the car on this windshield.

Mr. Specter. Does it feel the same to you today as it did on or about November 27?

Mr. Kellerman. As a matter of fact, it feels rather smooth today.

Mr. Specter. It feels somewhat differently today than it felt before?

Mr. Kellerman. Yes; it does.

Representative Ford. Could we ask when the red circle was placed on the windshield, if you know?

Mr. Kellerman. I do not know.

Mr. Specter. With respect to the shattering which existed on or about November 27, which is within the red circle, could that condition have existed on November 22 after the assassination?

Mr. Kellerman. Absolutely not. I don't think so.

Mr. Specter. What is the reason for your expressing your thought that it could not have existed?

Mr. Kellerman. This automobile is never out of sight of any agent, or even a police officer, before it is used—used or afterward. Let me clarify that. The agent that accompanied these cars to Dallas was with the vehicles from the time they left Washington aboard this plane. One of his many duties outside of keeping it, having this car run perfectly, is that all the equipment is in perfect condition.

Mr. Specter. Mr. Kellerman, what you are saying, then, is there had been no crack in the windshield prior to the time of the shooting?

Mr. Kellerman. That is correct.

Mr. Specter. My next question is: Did you observe any crack in the windshield after the shooting on November 22?

Mr. Kellerman. No.

Mr. Specter. Did you have any occasion to look for or examine for any crack in the windshield after the shooting?

Mr. Kellerman. I had no occasion whatsoever.

Mr. Specter. If the crack in the windshield had been as prominent as it was on or about November 27, 1963, would you have observed it after the shooting on November 22?

Mr. Kellerman. No, sir; I don't think I would have.

Senator Cooper. Is it correct then to say that you didn't find any occasion to examine the windshield after you heard the shots?

Mr. Kellerman. That is right, I did not have the opportunity.

Mr. Specter. And after the President was removed from the automobile, did you ever go back and examine the car, including the windshield?

Mr. Kellerman. Not in Dallas; no, sir.

Mr. Specter. To be absolutely certain our record is straight on this point, when you observed this windshield on or about November 27, 1963, was the windshield in or out of the car?

Mr. Kellerman. It was in the car. This was the same day they were going to remove it.

Mr. Specter. Did they remove it later that day, to your knowledge?

Mr. Kellerman. Yes; they did, and the mechanics were there.

Mr. Specter. Were you there at the time this was removed?

Mr. Kellerman. No, sir.

Mr. Specter. But the mechanics had arrived preparatory to removing it?

Mr. Kellerman. That is right.

Mr. Specter. Mr. Kellerman, we intended to describe the windshield in90 detail prior to your mentioning it, but to go back to your train of thought, you had brought up the windshield in response to my question about whether you had told us everything that you had in mind when you expressed the view that there were more than three shots. Now, remaining on the subject of the windshield, what fact about the windshield was important in your mind when you expressed the view that there must have been more than three shots?

Mr. Kellerman. I may be a little—I am not ahead of myself in your investigation of this case, but I think with the evidence that you all have on the numbers, on the pieces of evidence that were found in the car, plus the fact that you have a missile that was received from Dallas, from one of the stretchers, plus the fact of the missile that, to my knowledge, hasn't been removed from Governor Connally—it may have, I don't know—count up to more than three to me, gentlemen.

Mr. Specter. All right; fine. But focusing just a moment on the windshield in and of itself, is there any physical factor or characteristic of the windshield other than those already described for the record which has any bearing on your conclusion about the number of shots?

Mr. Kellerman. No; it does not.

Mr. Specter. Now, moving on to the other pieces of evidence which you have just described, you referred to pieces of evidence in the car. What did you mean when you made that reference, sir?

Mr. Kellerman. I have—I was told, although this is a hearsay thing——

Mr. Specter. For these purposes, please tell us whatever you are referring to, whatever its source, hearsay or not.

Mr. Kellerman. Okay; fine. That when they examined that vehicle that night, when it was brought back to Washington, D.C., two pieces of a bullet or bullets were found on the passenger side on the floor of the front seat.

Mr. Specter. Did you observe those?

Mr. Kellerman. No, sir.

Mr. Specter. Who told you that, or what report?

Mr. Kellerman. Mr. Boring—Floyd Boring.

Mr. Specter. Who is Mr. Boring?

Mr. Kellerman. He is also an assistant special agent in charge.

Mr. Specter. Is he currently with the Secret Service?

Mr. Kellerman. He is currently with the Secret Service at the White House; yes.

Mr. Specter. Were those two pieces of bullet described with more particularity than you have mentioned?

Mr. Kellerman. No; they were not.

Mr. Specter. Were they described as fragments of bullets as distinguished from whole bullets?

Mr. Kellerman. Right, sir.

Mr. Specter. But do you have any information as to the size of the fragments?

Mr. Kellerman. No; I do not.

Mr. Specter. Are there any other pieces of evidence in the car that you were referring to there?

Mr. Kellerman. The only other piece of evidence in the car was President Kennedy's skull.

Mr. Specter. All right. Do you know what was done with those fragments that Mr. Boring told you about?

Mr. Kellerman. No; I don't.

Mr. Specter. Do you know whether or not those were turned over to the FBI?

Mr. Kellerman. I would say they were probably turned over to the FBI; yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. And why would you say they probably were?

Mr. Kellerman. Because they were assigned to going over the car.

Mr. Specter. Was it their procedure to turn over whatever they found to the FBI?

Mr. Kellerman. Oh, yes.

Mr. Specter. Now, is there anything special in the nature of the skull which91 you just mentioned which would have any bearing on the number of shots fired in this assassination?

Mr. Kellerman. No, but it would be one shell, one shot.

Mr. Specter. That would be your conclusion?

Mr. Kellerman. That would be my conclusion.

Mr. Specter. That it would take one shot to have separated that portion of skull?

Mr. Kellerman. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. You mentioned a missile found on a stretcher in Dallas. Will you elaborate on what you were referring to there?

Mr. Kellerman. This was given, I believe, in your statements there, to a Special Agent Johnsen. I haven't seen this missile.

Mr. Specter. Are you referring there to the missile which was found on the stretcher and to the sequence of events from which it was traced back to one of the two victims of this shooting?

Mr. Kellerman. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. Do you have any more knowledge about that other than that which you have already mentioned?

Mr. Kellerman. No; I do not.

Mr. Specter. You mentioned a missile which was not removed from Governor Connally. Specifically, what did you refer to there?

Mr. Kellerman. There was in the early—this was on the day in Parkland Memorial Hospital, and this information comes from Dr. George Burkley, the President's physician, when, I believe, I asked him the condition of Governor Connally, and have they removed the bullet from him.

Mr. Specter. What did Dr. Burkley say?

Mr. Kellerman. Dr. Burkley said that to his knowledge he still has the bullet in him.

Mr. Specter. And at what time on November 22 was that?

Mr. Kellerman. This was after we got into the hospital after the shooting, sir, between then and 2 o'clock.

Mr. Specter. So that the operation on Governor Connally had not been completed at that point?

Mr. Kellerman. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Specter. Do you have any additional knowledge about any bullet in Governor Connally?

Mr. Kellerman. I do not.

Mr. Specter. Have you now told us about all of the facts which you took into account in your conclusion that there were more than three shots?

Mr. Kellerman. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. Do you have anything to add, Mr. Kellerman, by way of explanation or elaboration, to tell us which might be helpful with respect to your conclusion based on all of these items which you have described to us that there were more than three shots?

Mr. Kellerman. Gentlemen, I think if you would view the films yourself you may come up with a little different answer.

Mr. Specter. Well, have you viewed the films, Mr. Kellerman?

Mr. Kellerman. I have; yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. Was there something special in your viewing of the films which led you to believe that there were more than three shots?

Mr. Kellerman. No; it doesn't point out more than three shots, sir.

Mr. Specter. Which films are you referring to?

Mr. Kellerman. These are the colored ones that were taken on the right side.

Mr. Specter. Taken by Mr. Abraham Zapruder?

Mr. Kellerman. I don't know.

Mr. Specter. You are not familiar with the photographer?

Mr. Kellerman. No; I am not.

Mr. Specter. Well, can you describe the view you say is from the right-hand side of the automobile?

Mr. Kellerman. That is right.

Mr. Specter. So that would be on the side of the road where the Texas School Book Depository Building was?

92 Mr. Kellerman. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. And approximately where did those pictures begin and end?

Mr. Kellerman. These pictures began as we turned off Houston Street onto Elm.

Mr. Specter. And where did they end?

Mr. Kellerman. As we are, just before we are, going into the viaduct.

Mr. Specter. Were those black and white or in color?

Mr. Kellerman. No; they were colored.

Mr. Specter. Have you seen any other films of the assassination?

Mr. Kellerman. Yes; I saw a black-and-white, but I didn't—I saw a black-and-white film. However, I didn't get enough out of it there to——

Mr. Specter. Before proceeding any further, I would like to move for the introduction in evidence of Exhibit 351.

Representative Ford. It is approved.

(The windshield referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 351 for identification and was received in evidence.)

Mr. Specter. Do you have anything at all to add which you think might be helpful, Mr. Kellerman, on the question of how many shots were fired, or have you told us everything you have in mind on that question?

Mr. Kellerman. I believe I have, Mr. Specter.

Senator Cooper. What was the name of the special agent driving the car—the President's car?

Mr. Kellerman. William Greer.

Senator Cooper. He was the one to whom you spoke when you heard the report?

Mr. Kellerman. Yes, sir.

Senator Cooper. Has he ever expressed any opinion to you as to the number of shots that were fired?

Mr. Kellerman. No, sir. I think we are all of the opinion, Senator, that we know of three.

Mr. Specter. Mr. Kellerman, referring to Commission Exhibit No. 347, will you pinpoint as precisely as you can on that aerial shot, aerial picture, where the President's car was at the time of the first shot? And mark that, if you would, please, with an "X" in red pencil.

Mr. Kellerman. My guess would be right in here, sir.

Mr. Specter. Now, would you mark as closely as you can where the President's car was at the time of the second shot and mark that with a "Y" in red.

(Mr. Kellerman marking the picture.)

Mr. Specter. Now, you have marked the cars being in approximately the middle of the road; is that accurate, as you recollect it?

Mr. Kellerman. That is the general procedure, Mr. Specter; they were traveling in the center of the road.

Mr. Specter. Now, with respect to the time of the third shot, would your marking be any different from the "Y" position?

Mr. Kellerman. No; it would not.

Mr. Specter. Now, from the time of the shooting until the time the automobile arrived at Parkland Hospital, did anyone in the President's car say anything that you have not already told us about?

Mr. Kellerman. No, sir.

Mr. Specter. Mr. Kellerman, there is a report from the Federal Bureau of Investigation designated "Bureau File No. 105"—I believe there is an "S", although it is somewhat illegible on my copy—"S2555, report of Special Agent Robert P. Gemberling," dated December 10, 1963, which refers to an interview of you by Special Agent Francis X. O'Neill, Jr., and James W. Sibert, in which the following is set forth:

"He"—and this obviously refers to you—"advised that he heard a shot and immediately turned around looking past Governor Connally who was seated directly in back of him, to the President. He observed the President slumped forward and heard him say 'get me to a hospital.' Mr. Kellerman then heard Mrs. Kennedy say, 'Oh, no,' as the President leaned toward her." That is the end of the quotation. My question is: Did you hear him; did you hear President Kennedy say, "Get me to a hospital"?

93 Mr. Kellerman. No, sir.

Mr. Specter. Did you hear Mrs. Kennedy say, "Oh, no"?

Mr. Kellerman. No, sir.

Mr. Specter. Do you have any knowledge or explanation as to why you would have been so quoted in the report of the FBI?

Mr. Kellerman. When these two gentlemen talked to me, I don't know where they got those quotes, because the only two things that I told them, they were interested in what I heard from the people in the back seat, and one said "my God, I have been hit," which was President Kennedy, and Mrs. Kennedy said, "What are they doing to you?"

Mr. Specter. You were interviewed, however, by Mr. O'Neill and Mr. Sibert on November 22, 1963?

Mr. Kellerman. November what?

Mr. Specter. November 22.

Mr. Kellerman. No. November 22 is when they were in the morgue with me. They interviewed me in the office that—it was around the 27th. This was after the funeral.

Mr. Specter. Did they have any conversation with you about these events in the morgue?

Mr. Kellerman. Not that I recall, sir.

Mr. Specter. Did you have a discussion with either of those gentlemen about anything while you were at the morgue on November 22?

Mr. Kellerman. The only thing I can recall discussionwise—I just forget which one it was, one of the two—this was before we even knew that a shell had been found from the hole in the President's shoulder. We couldn't determine what happened to it. They couldn't find it in the morgue; they couldn't find any leeway as to whatever happened to the shell when it hit the President's shoulder; where did it go. So our contention was that while he was on the stretcher in Dallas, and the neurosurgeon was working over him no doubt with pressure on the heart, this thing worked itself out.

Mr. Specter. When you say "our contention," what do you mean by that?

Mr. Kellerman. One of these agents—I forget which one it was; it could have been Sibert or O'Neill, but I am not sure.

Mr. Specter. Did what?

Mr. Kellerman. We—our discussion or my discussion.

Mr. Specter. You had a discussion and when you say "our contention" by that do you mean that was the conclusion you came to?

Mr. Kellerman. Conclusion—that is right, sir—as to where this bullet went into the shoulder and where did it go.

Mr. Specter. While you are on that subject, was there any conversation at the time of the autopsy on that matter itself?

Mr. Kellerman. Very much so.

Mr. Specter. Would you relate to the Commission the nature of that conversation and the parties to it?

Mr. Kellerman. There were three gentlemen who were performing this autopsy. A Colonel Finck—during the examination of the President, from the hole that was in his shoulder, and with a probe, and we were standing right alongside of him, he is probing inside the shoulder with his instrument and I said, "Colonel, where did it go?" He said, "There are no lanes for an outlet of this entry in this man's shoulder."

Mr. Specter. Did you say anything in response to that?

Mr. Kellerman. I said, "Colonel, would it have been possible that while he was on the stretcher in Dallas that it works itself out?" And he said, "Yes."

Mr. Specter. Was there any additional conversation between you and Colonel Finck at that time?

Mr. Kellerman. Not on that point; no, sir; not on that point.

Mr. Specter. Was there any conversation of any sort between you and Colonel Finck which would be helpful to us here?

Mr. Kellerman. Well, from Humes, who was the other gentleman out there, from the entry of the skull, from this hole here.

Mr. Specter. You are now referring to the hole which you describe being below the missing part of the skull?

94 Mr. Kellerman. Yes, sir; it was confirmed that the entry of the shell here went right through the top and removed that piece of the skull.

Mr. Specter. And who confirmed that?

Mr. Kellerman. One of the three gentlemen; I don't recall.

Mr. Specter. You don't recall which one, but it was one of the three doctors doing the autopsy?

Mr. Kellerman. That is right.

Mr. Specter. So you are saying it confirmed that the hole that was below the piece of skull that was removed, was the point of entry of the one bullet which then passed up through the head and took off the skull?

Mr. Kellerman. Right, sir. That is correct.

Mr. Specter. Then that was all done by one bullet, based on what you are telling us at this moment?

Mr. Kellerman. That is right.

Mr. Specter. From the confirmation that one of the three doctors made?

Mr. Kellerman. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. Now, was there any other conversation between you and Colonel Finck or Commander Humes——

Mr. Kellerman. No.

Mr. Specter. At that time, which was important on the subject we are discussing?

Mr. Kellerman. Actually, from all the X-rays that were taken, and we viewed them all together; when I say "we," I am saying the medical people who were in the morgue at the time, the two Bureau agents, myself, and also Mr. Greer, who was in there with me, naturally, they were looking for pieces of fragmentation of this bullet. There was none; only one piece to my knowledge. That was removed inside above the eye, the right eye.

Mr. Specter. You have now told us all about the conversations between you and Colonel Finck and Commander Humes and anyone else at the autopsy which are important on the positions of the hole and the wounds in the head?

Mr. Kellerman. Right, sir.

Mr. Specter. Did you have any other conversation with either Special Agent O'Neill or Special Agent Sibert of the FBI on November 22, 1963, other than your conversations about the wounds on President Kennedy?

Mr. Kellerman. No.

Mr. Specter. Mr. Kellerman, while we are discussing this in relationship to your conversations with Special Agents O'Neill and Sibert, were there any other comments made by anybody else present at the autopsy about the path of the bullet into Mr. Kennedy's back, relating to whether there was any point of exit or anything of that sort?

Mr. Kellerman. Colonel Finck did all the talking, sir. He was the only one.

Mr. Specter. Now, have you told us everything Colonel Finck said about that subject?

Mr. Kellerman. Very much so; yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. So that there is nothing that was said on that subject other than what you have already told us about?

Mr. Kellerman. No; that is right.

Mr. Specter. Mr. Kellerman, I have read to you a part of what Special Agents O'Neill and Sibert have attributed to you in an interview which they have written about on November 22, 1963. Referring to that in the portion which I have read to you and which I will reread, I want you to direct your attention to the issue about which way you turned. The report states, "He advised he heard a shot and immediately turned around looking past Governor Connally who was seated directly in back of him to the President."

Now, did that describe a turn to the right or to the left? This is a difficult question. Let me interject one thing. We are presupposing here, based on your testimony, that you did not discuss with Special Agents O'Neill or Sibert these specific events on November 22, to the best of your recollection as we sit here today.

Mr. Kellerman. That is right.

Mr. Specter. So that the question really goes to a situation where perhaps95 they have an inaccurate day or your recollection is inaccurate as to some of the things you might have told them. So, my prefatory question would be whether that is an accurate statement and is something you told them at some time.

Mr. Kellerman. I don't believe I did. I think I will stand on my original statement.

Representative Ford. The original statement you made here today?

Mr. Kellerman. Yes, sir; very much.

Mr. Specter. So that the statement I just read to you, so far as your best——

Mr. Kellerman. I can't——

Mr. Specter. So far as your best testimony is at this time, it was simply not made by you on November 22?

Mr. Kellerman. That is right, sir.

Mr. Specter. All right, now. Was that statement I just read to you, the short one about your turn, to the best of your recollection at this moment, did you ever make that statement to Special Agents O'Neill and/or Sibert?

Mr. Kellerman. Mr. Specter, everybody I have talked to I have always turned to the right when I first heard the noise. I turned to my left to view the people in my back seat because it is a more comfortable position. So I don't think the turning is correct, sir.

Mr. Specter. Would you say the report is incorrect?

Mr. Kellerman. That is right.

Representative Ford. May I ask—you have viewed these colored motion pictures which were taken during the assassination. Have you looked at those to see what your own actions were during this period of time?

Mr. Kellerman. Yes, sir.

Representative Ford. Do they coincide with what you have testified to here today?

Mr. Kellerman. They certainly do.

Mr. Specter. I now hand you a photograph marked Commission Exhibit No. 352, and ask you if you can tell us what that picture represents?

Mr. Kellerman. Yes, sir; this was the rear seat of the President's car, sir, after all the occupants were removed.

Mr. Specter. And when did the rear seat of the President's car look like the picture 352?

Mr. Kellerman. After all the occupants were removed on the 22d of November.

Mr. Specter. When the car was parked at Parkland Hospital?

Mr. Kellerman. I don't know where this picture was taken, sir. This could have been taken in the White House garage.

Mr. Specter. Yes; but aside from where the picture was taken, is that the way the car looked at the time it was at Parkland Hospital after President Kennedy and Governor Connally were removed from the car?

Mr. Kellerman. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. Will you describe for the written record very briefly what this picture shows?

Mr. Kellerman. The picture shows the complete rear seat of the Presidential limousine.

Mr. Specter. What, if anything, is on the rear seat?

Mr. Kellerman. On the seat part of this car is splattered with blood; there are a few petals of flowers, and the back seat cushion part is pretty well bloodied up.

Mr. Specter. I move for the introduction in evidence of Commission Exhibit No. 352.

Representative Ford. So admitted.

(The photograph referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 352 for identification, and received in evidence.)

Mr. Specter. I now hand you, through the Chairman, Commission Exhibit No. 353, move its admission into evidence, and ask you to tell us what this depicts.

Mr. Kellerman. This is the same Presidential vehicle after the occupants have been removed from the rear seat. It shows the—a goodly amount of blood that had remained on the cushion and back part of the seat and also little flower petals.

96 Mr. Specter. Is Exhibit No. 353 an accurate representation of the way the rear seat of the President's automobile looked after——

Mr. Kellerman. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. After President Kennedy and Governor Connally were removed to Parkland Hospital.

Mr. Kellerman. Yes, sir; it is.

Mr. Specter. You have described in answers to previous questions what occurred upon the arrival at Parkland of the President's automobile. What action, if any, did you take immediately after President Kennedy and Governor Connally were taken into the hospital?

Mr. Kellerman. I believe we had got to the point where I had made this phone call to Washington to alert these people back here of the incident.

Mr. Specter. And proceeding from that point?

Mr. Kellerman. From this point, the agents who were in this followup car had joined me in the emergency room. They took up security posts at entrance into the emergency room to keep it clear of all people except medical people. The only people allowed in there would be workers. After this was done, Special Agent Kinney came to me and asked permission to remove the President's car and our followup car to the airport, to load it aboard this aircraft for shipment to Washington, and I said, "Yes."

At that time the next move was Special Agent Warren Taylor, who was assigned to the then Vice President Johnson, came to me and he said, "Mr. Johnson wants to talk to you." So, I followed him into this room that they had the Johnson party in. He asked me the condition of President Kennedy, which I told him that President Kennedy is still in the emergency room, his condition is serious. He then said, "You let me know of any developments."

I then returned to the emergency room. By that time another shift of agents, who were at the Trade Mart on duty for prior to our arrival, reported into the emergency room. This is what is called as our afternoon shift, the 4 to 12. Mr. Roberts, whose group was on the followup car in the motorcade through Dallas, was the 8-to-4 shift. The 4-to-12 shift then was under the supervision of Mr. Stewart Stout. I then instructed Mr. Roberts to take his shift, which were the day people, and join Special Agent Rufus Youngblood and stay with Vice President Johnson.

Mr. Specter. How many agents were they to take with them?

Mr. Kellerman. They took the entire followup car, which would mean that they had Roberts, Ready, Bennett, McIntyre; those four.

Mr. Specter. Do you know where they went or what specifically they did by way of establishing security for Vice President Johnson?

Mr. Kellerman. No; I really don't.

Mr. Specter. What was your next activity?

Mr. Kellerman. My next move, then, my next part in this was—by this time it was after 1 o'clock—I am trying to pinpoint time—after 1, because Dr. Burkley said that the President had died; it was after 1 o'clock. By this time other people who were in with Mr. Kennedy, such as his staff—I am speaking of Mr. O'Donnell, Mr. Powers, I believe Larry O'Brien—through them, and I believe Mr. Hill, they had obtained a casket from one of the funeral people in town.

Mr. Specter. Where had Mrs. Kennedy been during this time?

Mr. Kellerman. Mrs. Kennedy was right outside the door to the emergency room.

Mr. Specter. How long, if at all, was she inside the emergency room with President Kennedy?

Mr. Kellerman. This I can't truly answer. However, I should say that, as for the casket being brought into the hospital, another gentleman came into this little doctor's room, his name I don't recall, but he represented himself to be from the Health Department or commission, some form. He said to me, he said, "There has been a homicide here, you won't be able to remove the body. We will have to take it down there to the mortuary and have an autopsy." I said, "No, we are not." And he said, "We have a law here whereby you have to comply with it."

With that Dr. Burkley walked in, and I said, "Doctor, this man is from some health unit in town. He tells me we can't remove this body." The Doctor became97 a little enraged; he said, "We are removing it." He said, "This is the President of the United States and there should be some consideration in an event like this." And I told this gentleman, I said, "You are going to have to come up with something a little stronger than you to give me the law that this body can't be removed."

So, he frantically called everybody he could think of and he hasn't got an answer; nobody is home. Shortly he leaves this little room and it seems like a few minutes he is back and he has another gentleman with him, and he said, "This is"—the name escapes me—he said, "He is a judge here in Dallas," and he said, "He will tell you whether you can remove this body or not." I said, "It doesn't make any difference. We are going to move it," and I said, "Judge, do you know who I am?"

And he said, "Yes," and I said, "There must be something in your thinking here that we don't have to go through this agony; the family doesn't have to go through this. We will take care of the matter when we get back to Washington." The poor man looked at me and he said, "I know who you are," and he said, "I can't help you out." I said, "All right, sir." But then I happened to look to the right and I can see the casket coming on rollers, and I just left the room and let it out through the emergency entrance and we got to the ambulance and put it in, shut the door after Mrs. Kennedy and General McHugh and Clinton Hill in the rear part of this ambulance.

I am looking around for Mr. Greer and I don't spot him directly because I want to get out of here in a hurry, and I recognize Agent Berger and I said, "Berger, you get in the front seat and drive and, Mr. Stout, you get in the middle and I will set on this side," and as we are leaving—Mr. Lawson, I should say, was in a police car that led us away from Parkland Memorial Hospital. As we are leaving a gentleman taps on the driver's window and they roll it down and he says, "I will meet you at the mortuary." "Yes, sir." We went to the airport, gentlemen.

Mr. Specter. Who said, "Yes, sir"?

Mr. Kellerman. I did, sir. We went to the airport. In the meantime, Mr. Johnson had been taken to the airplane. They had secured the airport; nobody was there. They had removed seats off the rear part of the plane so we could put the body and the casket in it. As we got to the airport the ramp was there; we opened the door, and we moved the casket out and walked it right up to the plane.

Mr. Specter. Was there any further difficulty of any sort——

Mr. Kellerman. No.

Mr. Specter. Imposed by any Texas officials on the removal of the body?

Mr. Kellerman. No, sir. Whatever happened to the hearse, I don't know. I never left the plane.

Mr. Specter. Did you observe——

Mr. Kellerman. We left the hospital; we have a time on that; it is 4 minutes after 2. It is about a 10-minute ride to the airplane.

Mr. Specter. On the question of timing, pinning down these times as best we can, how long did it take you to get from the shooting incident to the time you arrived at Parkland, based on your best estimates?

Mr. Kellerman. Mr. Specter, it seemed like hours, but we flew there, I honestly don't know. I can't really tell you.

Mr. Specter. What is the best estimate of the speed of your vehicle en route from the shooting to the hospital?

Mr. Kellerman. I don't know.

Senator Cooper. Let the record show that Congressman Ford has to go to his official duties in the House and that I, Senator Cooper, am now acting as Chairman.

(At this point, Representative Ford left the hearing room.)

Senator Cooper. Go ahead.

Mr. Specter. Moving ahead, then, on to the sequences of time as best you can recollect them, Mr. Kellerman, at what time was it ascertained that the President had died and what was the basis of the pronouncement of death.

Mr. Kellerman. That was on the death certificate, sir.

98 Mr. Specter. Did you learn at or about 1 o'clock, while you were at Parkland Hospital, that he had died?

Mr. Kellerman. I would think so. However, at that time let me say that I wasn't watching any clock too closely and this time was given to me by Dr. Burkley.

Mr. Specter. Then you have no independent recollection of time at Parkland when the death was announced or pronounced?

Mr. Kellerman. No.

Mr. Specter. Now, then, you have specified the time of departure from Parkland Hospital and en route back to Love Field at what, sir?

Mr. Kellerman. We departed at 4 minutes after 2 from Parkland.

Mr. Specter. What time did you arrive at the President's plane?

Mr. Kellerman. 2:14.

Mr. Specter. What were your next activities?

Mr. Kellerman. Our next time, we had waited until Judge Sarah Hughes had arrived for the swearing-in ceremonies.

Mr. Specter. What time did the swearing-in ceremonies occur?

Mr. Kellerman. 2:37 p.m.

Mr. Specter. And what time did the plane depart from Dallas?

Mr. Kellerman. We left at 2:48.

Mr. Specter. Were you present during the swearing-in ceremonies?

Mr. Kellerman. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. In a general way, tell us who else was present there, recognizing that you don't know all the people there.

Mr. Kellerman. Yes. President Johnson, Mrs. Johnson, Mrs. Kennedy, Malcolm Kilduff. He was the press secretary for that trip. Congressman Thornberry, Congressman Thomas, Marie Fehmer, Mrs. Evelyn Lincoln, Jack Valenti, Bill Moyers, Special Agent Johns. There was another congressional man—I believe his name was Congressman Roberts—Brooks; I am sorry; Congressman Brooks. The picture was taken by Capt. Cecil Stoughton and myself.

Mr. Specter. What time did the President's plane arrive back at the Washington area?

Mr. Kellerman. May I look at my notes, sir?

Mr. Specter. Yes, you may. Identify for us, if you will, what notes you are referring to.

Mr. Kellerman. 5:58 p.m. This is my report.

Mr. Specter. Let the record show that Mr. Kellerman has just referred to a four-page report dated November 29, 1963, entitled "The Assassination of President John F. Kennedy on November 22, 1963, at Dallas, Tex.," which is a copy of a report he made, three of the sheets being carbon copies, and one being a photostatic reproduction. So that our record may be complete, let the record show that this is the same report which Mr. Kellerman submitted to the Secret Service which was, in turn, submitted by the Secret Service to the Commission, as one of the statements in Exhibit 12, statement 11, which was furnished by the Secret Service to the Commission as the report of the U.S. Secret Service on the assassination of President Kennedy, under the exhibits section. I will return that to you.

Mr. Kellerman. Fine; thank you.

Mr. Specter. What were your activities; specifically where did you land in the Washington area?

Mr. Kellerman. We landed at Andrews Air Force Base.

Mr. Specter. What were your activities then, immediately after landing at Andrews?

Mr. Kellerman. While en route from Dallas to Washington, D.C., I had several telephone communications with my special agent in charge, Gerald Behn, concerning this, transportation for the people aboard the plane, an ambulance for the body of President Kennedy, and my instructions. I was instructed to stay with the late President Kennedy. Aboard this plane were agents of the 4-to-12 shift which, as I mentioned earlier, was under the supervision of Mr. Stewart Stout; a conference was held with Mr. Rufus Youngblood, who was in charge of the Johnson detail at that time. He was informed that he would take99 all the agents under Mr. Stout's supervision and they would remain with them for the remainder of the day. That I would have Special Agents Hill, Landis, Greer, and O'Leary.

As we arrived at Andrews Air Force Base, arrangements were made prior to having a lift brought up to the rear end of the plane, whereby all the agents were requested by Mrs. Kennedy to carry this casket from the plane to the ambulance. It was put aboard this carrier; from there we took it from the carrier into the Navy ambulance. Mrs. Kennedy rode in the back seat, or in the rear part of the ambulance, with Mr. Robert Kennedy and General McHugh.

In the front seat the ambulance was driven by Special Agent Greer, of which Agents Landis and myself and Dr. Burkley rode in the front seat to the U.S. Naval Hospital in Bethesda. At that point Navy officials there instructed us where to take the ambulance, to what part of the building, and remove the casket into the morgue facilities.

As we landed in Andrews Air Force Base, I was met by our Chief, Mr. James Rowley, who informed me that Mr. Sibert and Mr. O'Neill of the FBI would join me at the Naval Hospital and to allow them in. I also informed him that the vehicles—that is, the President's car and our Secret Service followup car—are en route to Washington from Dallas, and that he should assign some members from our Washington field office to go over these cars for any evidence that might be left. In the morgue, I should say that Special Agent Greer and myself remained all night, Mr. O'Leary only briefly.

Mr. Specter. Where did the——

Mr. Kellerman. The family was placed——

Mr. Specter. Where did the family go?

Mr. Kellerman. They were placed in a room in the tower section of the Naval Hospital.

Mr. Specter. Did you actually accompany the body from the vehicle to the morgue room?

Mr. Kellerman. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. And were you present during the entire autopsy?

Mr. Kellerman. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. Tell us in a general way——

Mr. Kellerman. I only left on three different occasions.

Mr. Specter. For how long were you absent on those occasions?

Mr. Kellerman. A minute or two to make a phone call.

Mr. Specter. While the autopsy was in session, or when did you leave on those three occasions?

Mr. Kellerman. OK. First I was informed by a Navy personnel that I should call Mr. Rowley. There wasn't any phone—there was a phone in the room, but I wasn't aware of it at the time. So, I left and walked out into the corridor and called him. This was my first knowledge that they had found a projectile. The second call, I think I called home; that was my first call to home and that was it.

Mr. Specter. Now, the projectile that you just referred to was found where?

Mr. Kellerman. This was the projectile that was reportedly given to our Special Agent Richard Johnsen as we were leaving the hospital in Dallas.

Mr. Specter. How did you find out about that?

Mr. Kellerman. He says it was given to him by a security man or security officer in the hospital.

Mr. Specter. When did you first hear about it?

Mr. Kellerman. The phone call with Mr. Rowley that morning after we had got to the morgue.

Mr. Specter. What time was this?

Mr. Kellerman. I am only guessing; 9 o'clock in the evening.

Mr. Specter. Nine o'clock in the evening. You had said morning; you didn't mean morning; you meant 9 o'clock in the evening when you had a telephone call. From whom was the call again?

Mr. Kellerman. Mr. Rowley, Chief of Secret Service.

Mr. Specter. You got the phone call from Mr. Rowley?

Mr. Kellerman. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Who had called him, if you know?

100 Mr. Kellerman. This I don't know.

Mr. Specter. But at that time Chief Rowley advised of the detection of the bullet on the stretcher and brought you up to date with what information was known at that time?

Mr. Kellerman. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. Now, have you described all the times that you were absent from the room of the autopsy?

Mr. Kellerman. The only other time that I was absent was when the autopsy was about completed before the funeral directors were in, and it was my decision to get Mr. Hill down and view this man for all the damage that was done; so I went up to the floor where they were at and brought him down and he inspected the incisions.

Mr. Specter. What was your reason for that, Mr. Kellerman?

Mr. Kellerman. More witnesses, Mr. Specter; I think more to view the unfortunate happenings it would be a little better.

Mr. Specter. What time did that autopsy start, as you recollect it?

Mr. Kellerman. Immediately. Immediately after we brought him right in.

Mr. Specter. What time was that approximately, if you have a recollection?

Mr. Kellerman. I don't have a recollection.

Mr. Specter. What time did it end, if you recollect?

Mr. Kellerman. We left the hospital for the White House at 3:56 in the morning.

Mr. Specter. 3:56 a.m. on November 23?

Mr. Kellerman. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. Did the autopsy last all that time?

Mr. Kellerman. No. They were going to give these people a couple of hours that they worked on them.

Mr. Specter. Now, did you observe, during the course of the autopsy, bullet fragments which you might describe as little stars?

Mr. Kellerman. Yes, of the numerous X-rays that were taken mainly of the skull, the head. The reason for it was that through all the probing which these gentlemen were trying to pick up little pieces of evidence in the form of shell fragments, they were unable to locate any. From the X-rays, when you placed the X-ray up against the light the whole head looked like a little mass of stars, there must have been 30, 40 lights where these pieces were so minute that they couldn't be reached. However, all through this series of X-rays this was the one that they found, through X-ray that was above the right eye, and they removed that.

Mr. Specter. How big a piece was that above the right eye, would you say?

Mr. Kellerman. The tip of a matchhead, a little larger.

Senator Cooper. Let me ask a few questions. Mr. Kellerman, from what you have just said, I think it would be correct that from the time you began to assist in removing President Kennedy from his car to the time you left him in the emergency room that you never saw any bullet on a stretcher, either his stretcher or Governor Connally's stretcher?

Mr. Kellerman. I never saw any bullet, sir.

Senator Cooper. I believe you testified that, at the time you heard this first report, the President's car was approaching a viaduct?

Mr. Kellerman. Approaching, yes, but quite a little distance from it, sir.

Senator Cooper. Can you make any estimate as to how far away it was.

Mr. Kellerman. I don't know the footage, Senator Cooper.

Senator Cooper. Can you see it?

Mr. Kellerman. Yes; oh, yes, sir.

Senator Cooper. Can you see the viaduct plainly?

Mr. Kellerman. Oh, yes, sir.

Senator Cooper. Could you tell whether anybody was standing on top of the viaduct, or did you observe?

Mr. Kellerman. I didn't notice anybody up there at all, sir.

Senator Cooper. Did you observe whether anyone was in the immediate vicinity of the viaduct?

Mr. Kellerman. Not at this distance; no.

Senator Cooper. Do you have any—at the time of the shots, at the time that101 you were conscious of these shots being fired, do you have any judgment as to from what direction they came?

Mr. Kellerman. None whatsoever. Except I should say again that when this first one went off, which I indicated here that it sounded like a firecracker to my right and, say, rear, I looked to my right to see what it was.

Senator Cooper. Then it would be correct to say it was your judgment at the time, at the time of the report——

Mr. Kellerman. It was my judgment, sir.

Senator Cooper. That it was to the right and to the rear?

Mr. Kellerman. That would be correct. It was my judgment, sir.

Senator Cooper. Did you observe any persons standing to the right of the car?

Mr. Kellerman. Maybe a handful.

Senator Cooper. Did you see anything to indicate that any shot had been fired by those persons?

Mr. Kellerman. No, sir; not at the time.

Senator Cooper. When you heard the report and turned, could you see this building known as the Texas Book Depository?

Mr. Kellerman. Not by name. You could see the building because we passed right in front of it, sir.

Senator Cooper. You didn't know it as the Texas Depository Building?

Mr. Kellerman. Not then, no, sir.

Senator Cooper. Have you any idea how—what distance the President's car traveled from the time you heard the first report until the time you have described as hearing the flurry of shots?

Mr. Kellerman. No; I really don't know the distance. It wasn't too far.

Senator Cooper. What?

Mr. Kellerman. It wasn't too far.

Mr. Specter. For the record, I have some more questions when we reconvene.

Senator Cooper. We will recess then until 2 o'clock.

(Whereupon, at 12:35 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)


Afternoon Session
TESTIMONY OF ROY H. KELLERMAN, SPECIAL AGENT, SECRET SERVICE, RESUMED

The President's Commission reconvened at 2 p.m.

Representative Ford. The Commission will come to order.

Will you proceed, Mr. Specter?

Mr. Specter. Yes, thank you. Mr. Kellerman, immediately before the luncheon recess, Senator Cooper had asked some questions relating to the presence of anyone on the triple overpass which was in front of the President's car. Did you have any occasion, immediately before or immediately after the shooting, to look for anyone on the triple overpass or in that vicinity?

Mr. Kellerman. No; I really didn't.

Mr. Specter. Are you in a position to state, then, whether there was or was not someone on the triple overpass?

Mr. Kellerman. No; I am in no position to state that.

Mr. Specter. At the time of the shooting, did you observe any bullets ricochet off of the windshield or off of any other part of the automobile?

Mr. Kellerman. No. If any of the bullets ricocheted off the windshield or front part of the car, this would have been matter that was blown over mine and the driver's head from, I would say, the explosion of President Kennedy's head.

Mr. Specter. But aside from the portions of President Kennedy's head which you have already testified about, you observed nothing detectable as being bullet fragments or bullets?

102 Mr. Kellerman. No, sir.

Mr. Specter. Ricocheting off any part of the car?

Mr. Kellerman. No, sir.

Mr. Specter. And did you ever observe any bullet fragments in the car at rest after the shooting?

Mr. Kellerman. No, sir.

Mr. Specter. Did you observe a priest at Parkland Hospital?

Mr. Kellerman. Yes; there were two.

Mr. Specter. And approximately what time were they present at the hospital?

Mr. Kellerman. When we brought President Kennedy into the emergency room, the request for a priest was made immediately by one of the members of the staff. I do not recall who called for one. However, in the interim, a second call was sent out. Consequently, two showed; not at the same time, but one after the other.

Mr. Specter. How long were they at the hospital?

Mr. Kellerman. Just a matter of a couple of minutes of time.

Mr. Specter. And do you know where they went upon arrival at the hospital?

Mr. Kellerman. Yes, sir. They went right in the emergency room with the President.

Mr. Specter. Were you in the emergency room at the time they were there?

Mr. Kellerman. No, sir.

Mr. Specter. And do you know what services, if any, they performed while they were there?

Mr. Kellerman. No, sir.

Mr. Specter. Did you have any conversations with either of them while they were en route, either coming or going?

Mr. Kellerman. No, sir.

Mr. Specter. With respect to the state of readiness of Parkland Hospital at your arrival, how long after you got there were stretcher bearers at the front door?

Mr. Kellerman. To the best of my knowledge, there were no stretcher bearers at the car—none.

Mr. Specter. At your arrival?

Mr. Kellerman. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. Did some come shortly after you arrived?

Mr. Kellerman. No, sir.

Mr. Specter. Well, what sequence did follow with respect to the arrival of the stretchers?

Mr. Kellerman. When we arrived at the hospital, I had called to the agents to go inside and get two stretchers on wheels. Between those people and police officers who also entered the emergency room, they brought the stretchers out. I did not at any time see a man in a white uniform outside, indicating a medical person.

Mr. Specter. When did you first see the first indication of a doctor?

Mr. Kellerman. When we got in the emergency room itself proper.

Mr. Specter. And do you know which doctor that was?

Mr. Kellerman. Not by name or sight; no, sir.

Mr. Specter. How many doctors did you see at that time?

Mr. Kellerman. The room was full.

Mr. Specter. Who were the individuals who brought the stretchers on wheels, if you know?

Mr. Kellerman. Agents who were in the followup car, police officers who were ahead of us on motorcycles.

Mr. Specter. Mr. Kellerman, did you state how long the autopsy lasted when you testified this morning?

Mr. Kellerman. No; I didn't. However, this is going to be an assumption on time; I think I can pin it pretty well.

Mr. Specter. Give us your best estimate on that, please.

Mr. Kellerman. Let's come back to the period of our arrival at Andrews Air Force Base, which was 5:58 p.m. at night. By the time it took us to take the body from the plane into the ambulance, and a couple of carloads of staff people who followed us, we may have spent 15 minutes there. And in driving from103 Andrews to the U.S. Naval Hospital, I would judge, a good 45 minutes. So there is 7 o'clock. We went immediately over, without too much delay on the outside of the hospital, into the morgue. The Navy people had their staff in readiness right then. There wasn't anybody to call. They were all there. So at the latest, 7:30, they began to work on the autopsy. And, as I said, we left the hospital at 3:56 in the morning. Let's give the undertaker people 2 hours. So they were through at 2 o'clock in the morning. I would judge offhand that they worked on the autopsy angle 4, 5 hours.

Mr. Specter. And were you present when the funeral director's personnel were preparing the body?

Mr. Kellerman. I was; yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. And about what time, then, did they complete their work?

Mr. Kellerman. They were all through at 3:30.

Mr. Specter. And what did you do immediately after they completed their work?

Mr. Kellerman. All right. Our communication between the Kennedy family and staff, who were on another floor in the hospital, was in this regard. We had telephone communication whereby we would tell them if the body is ready to be taken out of the morgue and into the ambulance. And they would hit the elevator and come right out the same way. So the 5 minutes it took to load the people in, we left the hospital morgue part at least at 3:50, and, as I say, we were off at 3:56, driving to the White House.

Mr. Specter. And did you go directly to the White House?

Mr. Kellerman. Yes, sir; we did.

Mr. Specter. Did that complete your tour of duty for that day?

Mr. Kellerman. Yes, sir; it did.

Mr. Specter. Now, with respect to the time you were present at the autopsy, was there any conversation of any sort concerning the possibility of a point of entry from the front of the President's body?

Mr. Kellerman. No.

Mr. Specter. You have testified about the impression you had as to the source of the first shot, which sounded to you like a firecracker. Did you have any impression as to the source of the other shots, which you described as being a flurry?

Mr. Kellerman. If you will excuse me just a minute. I was trying to elaborate on the last question.

Mr. Specter. Pardon me. Go ahead.

Mr. Kellerman. Just for the record, I wish to have this down. While the President is in the morgue, he is lying flat. And with the part of the skull removed, and the hole in the throat, nobody was aware until they lifted him up that there was a hole in his shoulder. That was the first concrete evidence that they knew that the man was hit in the back first.

Mr. Specter. When did they lift him up and first observe the hole in the shoulder?

Mr. Kellerman. They had been working on him for quite some time, Mr. Specter—through the photos and other things they do through an autopsy. And I believe it was this Colonel Finck who raised him and there was a clean hole.

Mr. Specter. What was said, if anything, by those present at the autopsy concerning the wound in the throat?

Mr. Kellerman. To go back just a little further, the reason for the hole in the throat, the tracheotomy; I am thinking they were of the opinion that when the—when he was shot in the head, and they had found this piece remaining above the eye underneath; I am sure there was some concern as to where the outlet was, and whether they considered—this is all an assumption now; whether they considered this—that there was a hole here in the throat prior to the tracheotomy, I don't know. But to complete the examination, they lifted him up by the shoulders, and there was this hole. Now, I think you asked me a question. Could you repeat it, please?

Mr. Specter. Well, let's be sure that we have your final answer on the question of any conversation at all about a point of entry in the front part of his body, in his throat, or any place else.

104 Mr. Kellerman. I don't believe, Mr. Specter, that it was ever concluded that there was an entry in the front.

Mr. Specter. Then that completes the conversations at the autopsy?

Mr. Kellerman. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. On any of the subjects I have asked you about?

Mr. Kellerman. Right.

Mr. Specter. The question which I had then started to ask you was whether you had any impression at the time of the second and third shots, which you described as a flurry of shots, as to the point of origin or source of those shots.

Mr. Kellerman. The only answer I can give to that is that they would have to come from the rear.

Mr. Specter. Well, is that the impression or reaction you had at the time of the flurry?

Mr. Kellerman. That is right, sir.

Mr. Specter. Have you ever, since the time of the assassination to this date, had any contrary impression, reaction, or view that the shots came from the front of the President?

Mr. Kellerman. No.

Mr. Specter. Now, Mr. Kellerman, with respect to the immediate reaction by you to the emergency situation, did you consider at any time leaving your seat, on the right front of the President's automobile, to go into the rear portion, where the President sat?

Mr. Kellerman. No, sir.

Mr. Specter. And what is the basis for—or what was the basis for your conclusion on that?

Mr. Kellerman. After I had heard President Kennedy's voice say, "My God, I am hit," I viewed him, which was enough for me that he was. My decision was to get this man to a hospital, because he needed medical treatment. And during the few seconds that I instructed the driver to get out of here, we are hit, my second instruction was to the man in the lead car ahead of us for the same, to lead us to a hospital, that we are hit. I then turn around, and I had two people injured. Not only was the President down in his seat; the Governor was down in his seat. My presence back there was gone. On top of that, I had Mr. Hill lying across that trunk.

Mr. Specter. What do you mean when you say, sir, that your presence back there was gone?

Mr. Kellerman. They were comfortable, if there is a comfort in this. Mr. Hill was taking care of Mrs. Kennedy. Mrs. Connally was over the Governor; there was no motion. The next thing was a doctor, sir.

Mr. Specter. Did you consider presenting a further shield for the President at that time?

Mr. Kellerman. No, sir.

Mr. Specter. Did the metallic handhold which you described early in your testimony as being about 15 inches off the top of the seat and going all the way across the width of the car, did that metal structure present any substantial impediment to your moving from the front seat to the rear seat of the automobile?

Mr. Kellerman. Mr. Specter, I think it would have been a small obstacle. However, let me say this: If I thought in my own mind that I was needed back there, there wouldn't have been an obstacle strong enough to hold me.

Mr. Specter. How about the presence of Governor Connally in the jump seat? Would the presence of Governor Connally or any passenger in the jump seat provide a substantial obstacle to your moving from your seat to shield the President's body?

Mr. Kellerman. Not at all. It wouldn't have made any difference, sir. Why? Because my job is to protect the President, sir, regardless of the obstacles.

Mr. Specter. Did Mr. Greer at any time use the radio in your car?

Mr. Kellerman. No, sir.

Mr. Specter. Mr. Kellerman, did the President's automobile at any time slow down after the first shot?

105 Mr. Kellerman. No; not that I recall.

Mr. Specter. Mr. Chairman, that completes our questions, sir.

Representative Ford. As you turned from Houston onto Elm, you were then facing the triple overpass?

Mr. Kellerman. Yes, sir.

Representative Ford. You were looking forward at the time?

Mr. Kellerman. Yes.

Representative Ford. You were not looking to the side particularly, or back at all?

Mr. Kellerman. Don't let me change your thought, Mr. Congressman. But as we turned left on Elm, there is also another curve before you get to this overpass.

Representative Ford. A rather slight curve to the right?

Mr. Kellerman. Very much. I still knew there was an overpass.

Representative Ford. But your concentration was ahead?

Mr. Kellerman. Ahead.

Representative Ford. Not to the side or to the rear?

Mr. Kellerman. No; not to the rear especially; that is true. Let me explain a little more. When you are riding in this automobile, which is with him, and on your right side, naturally you are observing more on the right. It is obvious. However, you still have time periodically to glance over to the left for viewing anything that might be of a danger—whether it is people or any other object.

Representative Ford. There is no way you would know from personal observation in what direction the President was looking at the time he was hit by the first shot?

Mr. Kellerman. That is right; I would not.

Representative Ford. Could you outline for us here the process by which you were put in charge of this particular operation?

Mr. Kellerman. Yes.

Representative Ford. Can you outline for us the procedure that is followed in such cases?

Mr. Kellerman. Yes, indeed. As I said earlier, we have three people, for a better word, in charge of the White House detail. Mr. Behn—Gerald Behn—is the special agent in charge. There are two assistants, Floyd Boring and myself. On all trips this was a divided matter. And this one was my trip. Not that I picked it or anything. It was my trip that Mr. Behn said, "You will make this one with the President." The other two people would have other duties to do. And this is how it fell on to me for that day, sir.

Representative Ford. Once this assignment is made by Mr. Behn, what happens after that?

Mr. Kellerman. In regard to who, sir?

Representative Ford. To your responsibilities.

Mr. Kellerman. The overall.

Representative Ford. In other words, from that assignment by Mr. Behn, you take charge; you execute; you make assignments and so forth?

Mr. Kellerman. Only one thing. I am not going to say that I don't make assignments. Mr. Congressman, these people all work in a team form. We have three shifts. They work together for a long time, and to say this, that they knew each other's footprints, is probably an overstatement. But they know each other's methods. Let me go back just one step further. I want to give it clear to you.

Let's say the four or five stops that we had in Texas on this visit—we had one overnight in Fort Worth. All right. Each time, each stop that we make, the individual that we had sent out ahead to set up and coordinate the program with the people in that area, whether it is security or otherwise, through communications for the days he is away, he keeps us abreast of what is going on, who to expect, and so forth.

And, again, I should say that in the morning of the 22d in Fort Worth, this lad called me—Mr. Lawson—asked about the top, whether it should remain on or off, which decision was reached from Mr. O'Donnell. I then asked him—I said, "Are we going to be all right in Dallas?" He said, "Oh, yes; it is a good program." Fine. If and when we ever arrived at that spot, I would ask this106 man, is there anything unusual when we get here. That is a general question that I have given these people all the time.

Representative Ford. In other words, once the assignment has been made that you handle this trip, and in this case there was first a stop at El Paso, then at Houston——

Mr. Kellerman. San Antonio.

Representative Ford. San Antonio; then Houston, Fort Worth. You stayed overnight at Fort Worth?

Mr. Kellerman. Right.

Representative Ford. Then you proceeded to Dallas on the 22d?

Mr. Kellerman. Correct; yes, sir.

Representative Ford. As I understand it, when you arrived at San Antonio, the man that is in charge there, you immediately contacted.

Mr. Kellerman. Yes, indeed.

Representative Ford. When you go to Houston, the same process?

Mr. Kellerman. Yes, sir.

Representative Ford. Fort Worth, the same?

Mr. Kellerman. Fine.

Representative Ford. And when you got to Dallas, when you arrived there, whom did you see first?

Mr. Kellerman. Mr. Lawson.

Representative Ford. And what did he tell you?

Mr. Kellerman. He said, "Your program is all set. We have all the equipment and there should be no problem here." Fine.

Let me go back to Fort Worth again. On that night we had an overnight. The gentleman we had working that stop had an added thing thrown into him, which was the speech before breakfast. The President spoke to a crowd across the main street in front of the hotel. After the President retired that night, he and I went down to that parking lot. I said, show me where this man is going to be, where the platform is going to be, where are you going to have all these folks, and how close are they going to be; show me. He did.

You have got to keep abreast of these things, Mr. Congressman. Well, it is your job.

Representative Ford. Were all of these men that had charge of these various operations in San Antonio, Houston, Fort Worth, Dallas, men of experience?

Mr. Kellerman. Very much; very much so. I want to give you a little information on how these people are selected for doing your advance work out of Washington. In the first place, when they are brought in, you instruct them on everything you do securitywise around the White House. You instruct them in rangework, followup car work, every little phase entailed. Then say you have a little movement in town—the President has a press conference, as an example. He doesn't do that. Send him with an older fellow. Even if he just walks around, learn it. Take him another place, a departure from an airport, or a theater. Give him four or five. Then give him one, give him a little departure at an airport, or a hotel. But have somebody with him. Then there is no mistake made.

Representative Ford. Now, when these men are assigned to handle the responsibilities in a particular city, such as Lawson in Dallas, is Lawson on the staff here or is he a man from Dallas with the Secret Service?

Mr. Kellerman. These are all people we have in the White House detail, sir.

Representative Ford. In other words, Lawson was a White House detail man from Washington?

Mr. Kellerman. Right, sir. He is one of the men off those three shifts.

Representative Ford. Now, when was your assignment made as the man in charge of this particular operation?

Mr. Kellerman. Oh, I am going to say a week ahead, for lack of a better time—in fact, I knew that much of it.

Representative Ford. November——

Mr. Kellerman. Say the 17th, for a better day.

Representative Ford. On or before November 17th you got this assignment.

Mr. Kellerman. Surely. I knew that I was making a trip, and none of the other two gentlemen were.

107 Representative Ford. What did you do after you got this assignment—what steps did you take?

Mr. Kellerman. OK. The steps that I took—this entails work right here in Washington. First, to determine, to staff people in the White House, who is all going to make it, who are the passengers. This is a thing that those advance people out in the field do not know when they leave. You set up the time schedule—flight time—because the people on the other end want you there at 11:30 in the morning, you have to work back a flight time from Washington, or the helicopter time from the White House. All this is incorporated. Weatherwise—you will use an automobile. Allow a little more time. All right.

From the people that are out in the field on those 4 or 5 different spots, they are the ones that coordinate with the local folks what program they would like, which is forwarded back, conferred with staff people, whether it is approved, disapproved, added, or cut out. And about the day before you leave, then it is all gelled.

Representative Ford. But this is your principal responsibility, to pull everything together.

Mr. Kellerman. Right.

Representative Ford. Now, according to the various reports we have, when you know you are going to a particular city, or several cities, you have a method or a procedure to check to see if there are any individuals or organizations that present a serious threat to the President.

Mr. Kellerman. Yes, sir. We have what we call a Protective Research Section. This has been in existence for many years, through Roosevelt's days—I will go back that far. Through the combined efforts of various sources, through other agencies, they have a file on all the, let's say dangerous, for a better word, people that could be suspected in the city he arrives in. They will furnish the agents on those three shifts, if there are a number of them, or even one—it doesn't make any difference—all the data possible on that person—it will be given to each shift. It is a report form; can be read by all. And, if possible, there is a photograph included. That will be circulated around.

Representative Ford. Now, when you got your assignment on or about November 17, what did you do in this regard?

Mr. Kellerman. One little thing I should say. Well, I am sorry. One of the first things we do, when a trip is planned, is make a call on that PRS Section and tell them, "On November 21 we are going to be in San Antonio, Houston, and Fort Worth. On the 22d we will be in Dallas, Austin, and at the ranch." And they take it from there, sir.

Representative Ford. So, on or about November 22d, you made this inquiry.

Mr. Kellerman. This inquiry, sir, would be made a week ahead of time.

Representative Ford. A week ahead of the date that you were appointed?

Mr. Kellerman. That's right.

Representative Ford. Who would make that inquiry?

Mr. Kellerman. That would be made by any one of the three people—Mr. Behn, Mr. Boring, or myself, or one other person which I interrupted you a second ago. A departure is given to one man from one of the shifts who would set up a departure from the White House to Andrews. He, too, in turn notifies our Protective Research Section of this thing.

Representative Ford. Well, do you know who in this case for this trip made that inquiry of the Protective Research Section?

Mr. Kellerman. I don't have the name right now.

Representative Ford. Would there be a record of that made?

Mr. Kellerman. Yes, sir; yes, sir.

Representative Ford. I think we ought to have that for the record—the time it was made. You don't recall making it yourself, however.

Mr. Kellerman. No.

The Chairman. Do you know if it was actually done?

Mr. Kellerman. It is always done, sir.

The Chairman. I know. But do you know if it was done in this case?

Mr. Kellerman. Not for a fact; no.

Representative Ford. But you must assume it was done.

Mr. Kellerman. Very much so.

108 Representative Ford. Were you given the information from this inquiry, even though you didn't make it yourself?

Mr. Kellerman. What kind of information, sir?

Representative Ford. Well, about those people who are considered dangerous or a problem in any one of these four or five cities where the President was going on this trip.

Mr. Kellerman. I will have to check this, but there was no record.

Representative Ford. In other words——

Mr. Kellerman. No information.

Representative Ford. In other words, PRS never turned over to you any information about any dangerous individuals in any one of these communities on this trip.

Mr. Kellerman. That's right.

Representative Ford. Is this unusual?

Mr. Kellerman. Yes. But let me reserve the right to recheck that question again; may I?

Representative Ford. Absolutely. All we want in this case, as in any other, are whatever the facts are to the best of records that are available.

Mr. Kellerman. All right.

Representative Ford. In the report from the Secret Service it says, and I quote, "Because of the incidents on the occasion of the visit of Ambassador Stevenson to Dallas earlier in the fall, special attention was given to extremist groups known to be active in Dallas. Appendix A describes the action taken in Dallas in more detail." Were you familiar with that part of the Secret Service activity prior to your departure for Texas?

Mr. Kellerman. I have knowledge of that; yes, sir.

Representative Ford. How much knowledge?

Mr. Kellerman. But not enough to be written up, that I recall, sir.

Representative Ford. Well, could you describe for the Commission what knowledge you did have in this regard?

Mr. Kellerman. The only knowledge I can describe to you, sir, is the fact that we were aware of what this Ambassador went through down there. However, we had no information that such an incident would happen to President Kennedy on his trip into that State.

Representative Ford. But I gather from this report, which is the official report of the Treasury Department, that somebody knew of these previous incidents, and was thereby alerted to the possibility of—the potential of one, because the report says, "Special attention is given to extremist groups known to be in Dallas." Now, could you tell us what special attention was given?

Mr. Kellerman. No. Outside of the fact that everybody was alerted to this previous incident.

Representative Ford. PRS, Protective Research Section, didn't tell you, as the person in charge, of any individuals or of any groups that wanted special attention? I am using "special attention" as in the report.

Mr. Kellerman. Right as of this minute, the only knowledge that I have of any incident that could happen was in San Antonio, when I believe we had information of some pickets. Now, those pickets showed up outside of—he made a speech at that space hospital. Well, anyway, in view of that, I cannot reach the name right now—these pickets were out at, let's say, the main gate to the grounds, and just stayed right there with their placards.

Representative Ford. Also on the report it says, "In accordance with the usual practice, the local FBI office informed the local Secret Service office of any information which affected the President's visit."

Mr. Kellerman. They did. That is the normal practice.

Representative Ford. That was the normal procedure?

Mr. Kellerman. It is always the normal procedure; yes, sir.

Representative Ford. Now, whom would they have informed in this case in Dallas?

Mr. Kellerman. Their report would have come to Washington, and relayed to our Protective Research Section.

Representative Ford. And the FBI in this instance gave you what information, if any, that you should relay back to the people——

109 Mr. Kellerman. The only thing I can recall right now, sir, are those pickets in San Antonio.

Representative Ford. Well, may I say if on your return to your office you find any information on this particular point, I think it would be very helpful for the record, and it should be included in the record.

Mr. Kellerman. All right. I surely will.

Representative Ford. The report also says, "On October 30, 1963, the local FBI office gave the local Secret Service officer the name of a rightwing individual in the Dallas area. An investigation was made. On November 21 and 22 the local FBI office referred two pieces of information to the local Dallas office of the Secret Service." Were you familiar with that?

Mr. Kellerman. No.

Representative Ford. Who would, under your normal procedures, have been familiar with that?

Mr. Kellerman. It would be the same organization, Protective Research Section.

Representative Ford. But they did not give you any information of this.

Mr. Kellerman. No.

Representative Ford. Is this unusual or different?

Mr. Kellerman. If they evaluated this information, there would have to be a degree of seriousness.

Representative Ford. But, as far as you can best recollect at this point, you were never so informed.

Mr. Kellerman. No, indeed.

Representative Ford. The report does go on to say, and I quote, "One involved scurrilous literature already in the hands of the Secret Service, Exhibit 4. The second involved possible picket trouble which the local police were aware of." That is the picket trouble you were talking about?

Mr. Kellerman. Apparently so.

Representative Ford. The report also says on page 8, "Special Agent Lawson, SAIC Sorrel, and Special Agent Howlett met with Dallas law-enforcement officials. Special Agent Howlett also met with an informant. They followed up all leads and tips and checked scurrilous literature, Exhibit 4." Did you have any information personally about this activity by Lawson, Sorrel, and Howlett?

Mr. Kellerman. No, sir.

Representative Ford. Was it their responsibility to do it, to undertake that kind of an operation?

Mr. Kellerman. Everybody but Lawson. These other two gentlemen you are speaking of are field agents out of Dallas. Yes; they would investigate the seriousness of this thing, through the information furnished by the FBI. And, depending on the degree now, this would be furnished our Protective Research Section here in Washington.

Representative Ford. Now, did Lawson or anybody else communicate to you what was going on in this regard?

Mr. Kellerman. No, no. I do not think Mr. Lawson got in this investigative part at all. It would not be any part of his duties.

Representative Ford. I am only reading from the report.

Mr. Kellerman. Yes.

Representative Ford. And the report goes on to say, "Their investigations did not bring to light the name or the individual Lee H. Oswald, and he or his name was not known to them or any other Secret Service agent in Dallas or elsewhere prior to this shooting of the President." Would that be the same as far as you are concerned?

Mr. Kellerman. That is very true.

Representative Ford. You did not know of Lee H. Oswald?

Mr. Kellerman. None whatsoever.

Representative Ford. Was it surprising to you that when the President was going to a city as large as Dallas, that there were no names turned over to you, either by your Protective Research Section or by any other Federal agents—individuals or an individual dangerous to the President?

Mr. Kellerman. I recall, to give you an answer, Congressman, that it did seem strange that here we are hitting five cities in one State and—and from110 the apparent trouble Ambassador Stevenson had down there one evening, we certainly should have had some information on somebody.

Representative Ford. Hypothetically, if you go to other large metropolitan areas, do you normally get names from various agencies, including PRS, warning you of an individual or groups that might cause trouble?

Mr. Kellerman. Again I say that our PRS would recheck their files, from all the cities—from all the cases that they have in that city, and furnished us information, whether a report or photographwise. They in turn would—and I believe I am correct on this—they in turn notify the Bureau of this visit, or may have people check through their files. They can doublecheck this stuff. I don't recall any information whatsoever, except that picket thing.

Representative Ford. It is surprising to me, as well, and I gather it was certainly, on reflection, surprising to you——

Mr. Kellerman. Yes; it is.

Representative Ford. Was this in itself any warning to you that there might be some breakdown in the system?

Mr. Kellerman. Gee—no; I never cherished that thought, sir.

Representative Ford. You assumed that the proper liaison between various agencies was taking place, and your PRS was operating effectively?

Mr. Kellerman. Oh, yes; very much; yes indeed. Now, if I am wrong, when I check these two questions back here, I will let you know.

Mr. Specter. Congressman Ford, on this line, perhaps I should say that organizationally we are divided into phases where this is a separate phase in terms of protective devices. So, for the prepared part of what the staff has set up, we have by design omitted that portion here, with later witnesses to go into all these questions in some detail for the Commission.

Representative Ford. I was trying to get from Mr. Kellerman—from his testimony he was indicating that he was the person who from on or about November 17 had the responsibility. And I was trying to trace precisely how this responsibility was carried through, up to the point where you started out this morning. Do I understand, then, that at some later point in the Commission hearings with other witnesses we will go back into the process of how these decisions are made, as far as PRS is concerned?

Mr. Specter. Yes, sir. There will be detailed witnesses on the workings of PRS, and how they functioned with respect to this trip, and what information the FBI had or the State Department had about Lee Harvey Oswald, and whatever coordination, if any, was present. Our thought was that that would be handled separately, organizationally. Certainly, to some extent it is impossible to draw sharp lines of distinction here. But that is the way the staff has prepared the distinctions—with Mr. Kellerman going more specifically, as the other witnesses of today, on the sequence of events themselves at the assassination.

Representative Ford. But, as far as the procedures within PRS and the relationship between the Secret Service, the FBI, and other Federal agencies, that will come up later on in other witnesses who are more familiar with the precise workings.

Mr. Specter. Exactly; yes, sir.

Representative Ford. Who actually had the responsibility to check the route from the airport to the Trade Mart? I mean to check the route, lay out whatever security precautions should be taken from the outset until the day of the President's visit?

Mr. Kellerman. That was coordinated, Mr. Congressman, between Mr. Lawson and members of the Dallas Police Department, sir.

Representative Ford. You did not arrive in Dallas until the morning of the assassination?

Mr. Kellerman. Yes, sir; that is correct, sir.

Representative Ford. As you were in the car, in the right front seat, and the car turned from Main Street right into Houston, you had for a relatively short period of time an opportunity to look at the Texas School Depository Building. Did you look at it; did you notice anything about it? What was your reaction, if any, to that particular building?

111 Mr. Kellerman. Not knowing the name of the building—let me say this: When you are driving down this street, regardless of Houston or which, and you have buildings on either side of you, you are going to scan your eyes up and down this building.

Representative Ford. Did this building create, as you turned into Houston Street, any particular problem that would have alerted you one way or another?

Mr. Kellerman. None whatsoever. It did not produce a thing.

Representative Ford. Your eyes scanned the area. Did they scan sufficiently to identify anything, to be alerted by anything in any window, on the roof, or anyplace else?

Mr. Kellerman. No, sir.

Representative Ford. Did Mr. Lawson or anybody else indicate to you at any time that the Book Depository Building was a problem?

Mr. Kellerman. No, sir.

Representative Ford. I mean beforehand.

Mr. Kellerman. Never mentioned it.

Representative Ford. Did Mr. Lawson or anybody else discuss with you any particular danger involved in the overpass, the triple overpass?

Mr. Kellerman. No, sir.

Representative Ford. Did you have minute knowledge as to the route in Dallas, or was that left up to Lawson in his judgment?

Mr. Kellerman. Left up to Lawson and the people in Texas.

Representative Ford. But he did tell you when you arrived in Dallas; what, again?

Mr. Kellerman. And the people in Texas, the police department.

Representative Ford. What did he tell you? When you arrived in Dallas that morning, he told you something.

Mr. Kellerman. Yes, sir. He said, "This is your reception committee, which is at the bottom of the ramp leading out." I said, "Are we all right in Dallas here all the way for today?" And he said, "Yes; this will be fine." I said, "All right; let's get on with it."

Representative Ford. When were you first interviewed by anyone regarding the directions from which the shots came?

Mr. Kellerman. I don't recall ever being interviewed.

Representative Ford. Did you ever make a statement for submission to the Commission or to your supervisors?

Mr. Kellerman. Just this statement that I submitted here.

Representative Ford. Which is included in the Secret Service report.

Mr. Kellerman. Yes, sir.

Representative Ford. Did you have anything to do with setting up the method of trying to apprehend the alleged assassin? Was that outside or within your jurisdiction?

Mr. Kellerman. Outside, sir.

Representative Ford. You did nothing in that regard.

Mr. Kellerman. Nothing.

Representative Ford. I believe that is all. I have to go back to a very important committee meeting, Mr. Chairman. I may be able to get back later, Mr. Chief Justice.

The Chairman. I will be here the rest of the afternoon, so there will be no necessity of your coming back if you are tied up. Thank you very much for presiding all day.

Mr. Specter, have you some more questioning?

Mr. Specter. I have just one or two other questions.

Mr. Kellerman, you referred to a single statement which you said you had made. In the report of the U.S. Secret Service on the assassination of President Kennedy, on Exhibit 12, statement 11—we have the first statement which you made, which is four pages, and that is the one to which you referred, to refresh your recollection earlier today, and I show you what appears to be a second very brief report which you made 1 day later under date of November 30, 1963, with your name and initials, and ask you if you made this one, also.

Mr. Kellerman. That is right; yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. All right. You referred to you and Mr. Boring being the two112 assistant special agents in charge. Is that status the same at the present time, or are there now three assistant special agents in charge?

Mr. Kellerman. There are three. Mr. Rufus Youngblood is the third one.

Mr. Specter. Has that slight shift been made since the time of the assassination.

Mr. Kellerman. That is correct.

Mr. Specter. Mr. Chief Justice, those are my only additional questions, sir.

The Chairman. Mr. Craig, would you like to ask any questions, or do you think of any other avenue that we should explore here?

Mr. Craig. No, sir; thank you, Mr. Chief Justice. As the interrogation has progressed, I have been handing notes to counsel and he has been very kind in asking those questions.

The Chairman. Mr. Murray, can you think of anything?

Mr. Murray. No, thank you, Mr. Chief Justice.

Mr. Smith. Off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. Craig. Mr. Kellerman, is there any special agent in charge of the protection of the person next in line in succession, to your knowledge?

Mr. Kellerman. I think Mr. Rowley would like to man that. I think they have had a little difficulty to find a man.

Mr. Craig. There is no such person now?

Mr. Kellerman. No, they have made numerous attempts with the people, and so far they have got a negative reply.

The Chairman. Well, Mr. Kellerman, thank you very much, sir, for your attendance and for your testimony.

Mr. Kellerman. Thank you, sir.

(At this point, Representative Ford left the hearing room.)

The Chairman. Now, Mr. Specter.

Mr. Specter. We will call Mr. Greer.

The Chairman. Mr. Greer, how do you, sir.

Mr. Greer, will you raise your right hand and be sworn.

Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth before this Commission, so help you God?

Mr. Greer. I do.

The Chairman. Would you be seated, please.

TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM ROBERT GREER, SPECIAL AGENT, SECRET SERVICE

Mr. Specter. Would you state your full name for the record, please.

Mr. Greer. William Robert Greer.

Mr. Specter. By whom are you employed, Mr. Greer?

Mr. Greer. The Treasury Department, Secret Service Division of the Treasury Department.

Mr. Specter. How old are you at the present time?

Mr. Greer. Fifty-four years old.

Mr. Specter. How long have you been with the Secret Service Department?

Mr. Greer. I have been with the Secret Service Department since October 1, 1945.

Mr. Specter. What is your educational background?

Mr. Greer. I have just education in public schools in Ireland, really.

Mr. Specter. And——

Mr. Greer. I took courses here in this country.

Mr. Specter. Are you a high school graduate, then?

Mr. Greer. Well, I have 2 years of high school.

Mr. Specter. And when did you complete this educational background?

Mr. Greer. I have to go back now.

Mr. Specter. Approximately.

Mr. Greer. About 1924 or 1925.

Mr. Specter. Would you outline in a general way what your activities have been since that time, up until your joining the Secret Service, please?

Mr. Greer. Yes, sir. I was born and raised on farmwork, a farmer. And113 I done that until I came to this country in February 1930. I worked for a period of time—I lived in Boston for a little while. I worked one summer on the estate of Henry Cabot Lodge. I was a chauffeur for a family in Brookline, Mass., for about a year. And then I went to New York, Dobbs Ferry, N.Y. I lived there for 13 years as a chauffeur for a private family in Dobbs Ferry, N.Y. Then I went in the Navy in November 1942. I got discharged on September 18, 1945.

Mr. Specter. What were your principal duties while in the Navy?

Mr. Greer. I was seaman first class. I did almost 2 years at Bainbridge, Md., with the seaman guard there. And then I was assigned to the presidential yacht in May 1944, until I was discharged in September. But most of my duty was at the White House in that period, that year.

Mr. Specter. And how long after discharge from the Navy was it before you joined the U.S. Secret Service?

Mr. Greer. Well, I got out of the Navy September 18 and October 1 I went with the Secret Service—a matter of 14 or 15 days.

Mr. Specter. Describe your duties since joining the Secret Service, please.

Mr. Greer. Since joining the Secret Service I was assigned to the uniform force at first with the Secret Service at the Bureau of Engraving and Printing. For about 2 years I was with the physical education part of it. We had a gymnasium there. I was an instructor there part-time—part of the time. And then I was assigned for about 2 years to pick up the food of the President at the White House. I had that duty for about 2 years. And then I went back to the Treasury for a short period, a few months. And then I was reassigned to the White House as an agent in November—1950 I went, there. I was made a full agent that following August 1951. I was there as a special officer from November to August 1951.

Mr. Specter. And have you been assigned to the White House staff since that time?

Mr. Greer. Yes, sir; I have been there ever since.

Mr. Specter. And while assigned at the White House staff, how much of your duty has involved driving the President's car?

Mr. Greer. Well, I drove the followup car for quite a long time—you know, off and on. And then I drove the President at intervals during President Truman's and President Eisenhower's terms. I was also assigned a great many times to Mrs. Eisenhower. When she left Washington, I was always assigned to her, to travel with her. And I have been assigned to the President, to drive the President, since election day, with President Kennedy. I was the senior agent assigned to him, to drive him.

Mr. Specter. How did you get to Dallas yourself back on November 22, 1963?

Mr. Greer. I flew—I was on a plane with the President all during the trip. And I flew from Fort Worth to Dallas that morning.

Mr. Specter. Mr. Greer, I hand you documents which have been marked Commission Exhibits 344, 345, and 346. I ask you if you can identify those, starting with 344, what that depicts.

Mr. Greer. Yes, sir; I can identify this automobile very well. That is the 1961 Lincoln, especially built for the President. And this is a rear view of that same automobile. This is the interior of that Lincoln Continental. Yes, sir, everything is very positive that I can identify.

Mr. Specter. How did that automobile—how was that automobile transported to Texas?

Mr. Greer. It was flown there in a C-130.

Mr. Specter. And do you know where it was flown to?

Mr. Greer. Well, it was flown—let's see, I forget the day before where our first stop was on that trip right now. I would have to go back into my papers. But we used I believe more than one stop. I am trying to think where we used it before we went to Dallas. It could have been at Houston. I am not too sure whether we used it at Houston the day before or not. I would have to go back in my records.

Mr. Specter. Is it possible the first time you used the automobile on that Texas trip was at Dallas?

Mr. Greer. Right now it is so long ago, I have almost forgotten whether we114 did use it at Houston prior to that or not. I am not too sure where the first stop was. We sometimes use it more than one stop.

Mr. Specter. Is there any covering which can be put on the President's automobile?

Mr. Greer. There is—when we put the plastic—I put the plastic on it, we have a black canvass-type cover that buttons over the top of the plastic.

Mr. Specter. Will you please describe in a general way the plastic covering you just referred to.

Mr. Greer. The plastic covering is made in six pieces. Three of them—there are two corner pieces and a centerpiece on the back that we fasten together before we set it up onto the car. Then there is a front—one piece that goes across the front seat after that. Then the last pieces we put on are two that go in the center, and they meet together in the center—they come together in the center. That makes the six pieces that it comes down in. We have to break it down in the six pieces to store it in the trunk. It is kept in the trunk of the car whenever we are not using it.

Mr. Specter. Are the three pieces that you described as being joined together for the rear portion disassembled at all times?

Mr. Greer. We disassemble them to store them in the trunk, yes, sir. But we put them together on the floor, on the ground or something like that—we put the three pieces together, then we lift it up and set it in place, which covers the back seat of the car.

Mr. Specter. And after you put the three pieces together for the back portion of the car, how many additional pieces are there for the balance of the car?

Mr. Greer. Three; three more pieces.

Mr. Specter. And how are they secured to the automobile itself?

Mr. Greer. They are secured with—I don't know what you would call it—these fasteners, snaps, kind of snaps that snap on them. We have them made that way so that we can install them or take them apart very fast.

Mr. Specter. Now, is this cover transparent? Can it be seen through?

Mr. Greer. The plastic; yes. You can see through it.

Mr. Specter. And what is the plastic made of, if you know?

Mr. Greer. Well, it is a type of plastic. I just don't know who manufactures it. But it is clear plastic.

Mr. Specter. Is it bulletproof or bullet resistant?

Mr. Greer. No, sir. It is weather—the idea back of it was for inclement weather, that the President could be seen if the weather was too bad to have him outside. That is what we had in mind originally with it.

Mr. Specter. Do you have any personal knowledge of any efforts made to obtain a bulletproof or bullet-resistant transparent top?

Mr. Greer. Now, or before that?

Mr. Specter. Well, start beforehand.

Mr. Greer. No; I never had anything to do with that at all. I never had anything to do with anything being made for that.

Mr. Specter. Do you know what efforts have been made subsequent to the assassination of President Kennedy to obtain such a bulletproof transparent top?

Mr. Greer. Only just hearing conversation; nothing definite; no, sir.

Mr. Specter. Approximately what time, to the best of your recollection, did President Kennedy arrive in Dallas on November 22?

Mr. Greer. I would have to—I would not tell you right now. I would have to go back and look into my—you probably have it there. I have it also on my report.

Mr. Specter. If you don't recall the exact time, just give us your best estimate.

Mr. Greer. Approximately 11:35. I am guessing.

Mr. Specter. And what was his mode of transportation into Dallas?

Mr. Greer. He flew on an Air Force plane.

Mr. Specter. And where did he fly from?

Mr. Greer. From Fort Worth to Dallas.

Mr. Specter. Will you tell us in a general way what he did upon arrival in Dallas at Love Field?

Mr. Greer. Yes, sir. He got off the plane. He walked along the fence along there, and shook hands with a great many people. There was a large115 crowd there. He and Mrs. Kennedy both walked along and shook hands with many people.

Mr. Specter. Now, approximately how long after arrival at Love Field did he get into his automobile?

Mr. Greer. I would guess probably, say, approximately maybe 10 minutes.

Mr. Specter. What were the weather conditions like that day as he got into his automobile?

Mr. Greer. The weather was very nice that day. It was a beautiful day in Dallas, very fine day, warm, fairly warm, nice day.

Mr. Specter. Was the car open?

Mr. Greer. The car was open; no top.

Mr. Specter. Approximately how many automobiles were there in that motorcade?

Mr. Greer. I wouldn't have—couldn't tell you right now how many. There was quite a few cars.

Mr. Specter. Who were the occupants of the President's car?

Mr. Greer. On the back seat, on the right rear seat, the President, Mrs. Kennedy on the left rear seat, Governor Connally was on the right jump seat, and Mrs. Connally was on the left jump seat. Mr. Kellerman was riding on the right front, and I was driving.

Mr. Specter. At what speed did you travel as you proceeded at various points from Love Field, say, down into the downtown area of Dallas?

Mr. Greer. Well, we traveled at various speeds, according to the amount of people, the crowd. If it was—if we came to a large crowd, we would have to slow down. I would say, to probably 10 to 15 miles an hour. Then we would pick it up possibly 25 or somewhere around—25 maybe to 30, where there was few people.

Mr. Specter. What was the maximum speed at which you drove from the time you left Love Field until the time you got to downtown Dallas?

Mr. Greer. I wouldn't have the slightest idea now, after this length of time. I could not say how much it would be.

Mr. Specter. Can you give us your best estimate on the minimum speed from the time you left Love Field until the time you arrived at downtown Dallas?

Mr. Greer. The minimum speed traveling at all would probably be 10 to 15 miles an hour.

Mr. Specter. And what sort of crowds were along the way?

Mr. Greer. There was large crowds—at some places there was quite large crowds.

Mr. Specter. Did anything unusual occur en route from Love Field to the downtown area of Dallas?

Mr. Greer. Well, I think—it may have been—we may have stopped one time where he got out—didn't get out, but he stopped and spoke to some young people, I believe, en route. I think there may have been a group of people there.

Mr. Specter. I hand you a photograph which has already been marked Commission Exhibit No. 347 and ask you if at this time you are able to identify what that photograph depicts.

Mr. Greer. Yes, sir. That is the photograph of the route that we traveled in Dallas.

Mr. Specter. I show you a photograph marked Commission Exhibit No. 348 and ask you if you can identify what that picture represents.

Mr. Greer. With pictures that I have seen since then, I would recognize that as the Book Depository Building in Dallas—the street in front of it.

Mr. Specter. Are you familiar with the name of this street, which has since been marked by Mr. Kellerman, who identified this exhibit and marked the name of the street on it?

Mr. Greer. No, I wasn't at the time, but I know now that it is supposed to be Main Street.

Mr. Specter. And do you know in what general direction Main Street proceeds?

116 Mr. Greer. I am not too sure. No; I wouldn't really know. I didn't have enough time.

Mr. Specter. And are you familiar with the street which intersects with Main——

Mr. Greer. Houston Street.

Mr. Specter. And what street did you turn off of from Houston?

Mr. Greer. Houston to Elm Street.

Mr. Specter. Now, as you were proceeding down Main Street, which I will add is in a generally westerly direction, what is your best estimate of your speed as you turned the corner right onto Houston Street?

Mr. Greer. I would estimate the speed was somewhere between 12 to 15 miles per hour, coming through there.

Mr. Specter. And as you made that right-hand turn onto Houston Street, what was the composition of the crowds along the way, if any?

Mr. Greer. On Main Street there were very, very large crowds. They were almost close up against the automobile. Sometimes the motorcycles on the sides could not even get through. They were real close to us. And very large crowds. And when we got around on Houston Street, the crowds thinned out quite a lot. My recollection here is that there wasn't too many people on Elm Street—a few scattered people at that point.

Mr. Specter. And your finger indicated there the position near the Texas School Depository Building?

Mr. Greer. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. Now, you have described motorcycles. How many were present with the President's automobile, if any?

Mr. Greer. I could not tell the exact amount of motorcycles that were escorting us at that time. We usually do have them on the two front fenders and two rear fenders, and some probably preceding that, and some along the motorcade behind us. I could not tell you exactly how many there probably would be.

Mr. Specter. Do you recollect that there were some on this occasion, however?

Mr. Greer. Yes, sir; there were motorcycles.

Mr. Specter. Now, do you know how many cars back your car was in the motorcade?

Mr. Greer. No; I don't know how many police cars were ahead of us. I knew that the lead car was right directly ahead of me, with one of our agents, or maybe two, and the chief of police in that car. But how many police cars prior to that, I do not know how many there were at the time in front of us.

Mr. Specter. How far ahead of you was that police car as you turned off of Main Street onto Houston?

Mr. Greer. I usually allow 4 or 5 car lengths, if possible, between the car and myself, in case that there is any reason to speed up quick. I like to leave enough room that I can get out of there. I don't like to get too tight to the lead car when possible—unless the crowds are so big that I have to get in or they would close in on me—I have to get in closer.

Mr. Specter. Do you know how far behind you the first car immediately behind yours was?

Mr. Greer. The car behind me was only some few feet, because with our training and all, we stay very, very close to the President's car. Sometimes we are bumper to bumper. And the car never is much more than 10 to 12 feet away from the President's car, at slow speeds.

Mr. Specter. Did you endeavor to maintain a constant speed in the operation of the President's car so as to avoid contact with this close gap between the President's car and the President's follow-up automobile?

Mr. Greer. Yes, sir. We tried to drive at a very steady speed. We are used to driving with each other, and we almost can tell each other's thoughts what we do, because of the training we have had, and we work so long together. We drive at a steady pace of speed, so that we give each other enough ample time to stop or move in close.

Mr. Specter. After turning off Main onto Houston, did you have any opportunity to take a look at the building which you have since identified as the Texas School Book Depository Building?

117 Mr. Greer. No, sir. I had not any chance to look much at that building at all. When I made the turn into Elm Street, I was watching the overpass expressway—the overpass, or what was ahead of me. I always look at any—where I go underneath anything, I always watch above, so if there is anyone up there that I can move so that I won't go over the top of anyone, if they are unidentified to me, unless it is a policeman or something like that. We try to avoid going under them.

Mr. Specter. Now, when you turned off of Houston onto Elm, did you make a right-hand or a left-hand turn?

Mr. Greer. I made a right-hand turn off of Main onto Houston.

Mr. Specter. And when you turned from Houston onto Elm, was that a right-hand or a left-hand turn?

Mr. Greer. That was a left-hand turn.

Mr. Specter. And as you turned onto Elm Street, how far, to the best of your ability to estimate, was your automobile from the overpass which you have just described?

Mr. Greer. I wouldn't have a distance recollection at all on how far it was. It wasn't too far. I just could not give you the distance.

Mr. Specter. At that time, did you make a conscious effort to observe what was present, if anything, on that overpass?

Mr. Greer. Yes, sir. I was making sure that I could not see anyone that might be standing there, and I didn't see anything that I was afraid of on the overpass.

Mr. Specter. Did you see anything at all on the overpass?

Mr. Greer. Not that I can now remember.

Mr. Specter. What is your best recollection of the speed at which you were traveling as you turned left off of Houston onto Elm?

Mr. Greer. My best recollection would be between 12 and 15 miles per hour.

Mr. Specter. And how far were you at that time behind the police car which was in front of you?

Mr. Greer. Probably 50 feet maybe—approximately. I will say approximately 50 feet.

Mr. Specter. As you turned onto Elm, did you have any opportunity to observe how far behind you the President's follow-up car was?

Mr. Greer. No, sir. I was not looking in my mirror; I could not say how far it was behind me at the time.

Mr. Specter. And what was the nature of the crowd as you made the turn onto Elm Street, if you recall?

Mr. Greer. To the best of my memory, the crowd had thinned out a great deal, and there was not too many people in front of that building.

Mr. Specter. How many lanes of travel were there on Elm Street?

Mr. Greer. It was either three or four lanes wide. I have forgotten.

Mr. Specter. In what portion of the street were you traveling?

Mr. Greer. I was right in the center of the street.

Mr. Specter. Would you describe for us the contour of the street at that point—whether it was level, hilly, or what.

Mr. Greer. It was starting to go down—gradually going down toward this underpass. It was a down grade.

Mr. Specter. Now, would you tell us just what occurred as you were proceeding down Elm Street at that time?

Mr. Greer. Well, when we were going down Elm Street, I heard a noise that I thought was a backfire of one of the motorcycle policemen. And I didn't—it did not affect me like anything else. I just thought that it is what it was. We had had so many motorcycles around us. So I heard this noise. And I thought that is what it was. And then I heard it again. And I glanced over my shoulder. And I saw Governor Connally like he was starting to fall. Then I realized there was something wrong. I tramped on the accelerator, and at the same time Mr. Kellerman said to me, "Get out of here fast." And I cannot remember even the other shots or noises that was. I cannot quite remember any more. I did not see anything happen behind me any more, because I was occupied with getting away.

Mr. Specter. Now, how many shots, or how many noises have you just described that you heard?

118 Mr. Greer. I know there was three that I heard—three. But I cannot remember any more than probably three. I know there was three anyway that I heard.

Mr. Specter. Do you have an independent recollection at this moment of having heard three shots at that time?

Mr. Greer. I knew that after I heard the second one, that is when I looked over my shoulder, and I was conscious that there was something wrong, because that is when I saw Governor Connally. And when I turned around again, to the best of my recollection there was another one, right immediately after.

Mr. Specter. To the best of your ability to recollect and estimate, how much time elapsed from the first noise which you have described as being similar to the backfire of a motor vehicle until you heard the second noise?

Mr. Greer. It seems a matter of seconds, I really couldn't say. Three or four seconds.

Mr. Specter. How much time elapsed, to the best of your ability to estimate and recollect, between the time of the second noise and the time of the third noise?

Mr. Greer. The last two seemed to be just simultaneously, one behind the other, but I don't recollect just how much, how many seconds were between the two. I couldn't really say.

Mr. Specter. Describe as best you can the types of sound of the second report, as distinguished from the first noise which you said was similar to a motorcycle backfire?

Mr. Greer. The second one didn't sound any different much than the first one but I kind of got, by turning around, I don't know whether I got a little concussion of it, maybe when it hit something or not, I may have gotten a little concussion that made me think there was something different to it. But so far as the noise is concerned, I haven't got any memory of any difference in them at all.

Mr. Specter. Describe as best you can the sound of the third noise.

Mr. Greer. Just, to me it was similar, to the first two. They all sounded practically the same to me.

Mr. Specter. You testified that at the second noise you glanced over your shoulder.

Mr. Greer. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. Which shoulder did you glance over?

Mr. Greer. Right shoulder.

Mr. Specter. And describe or indicate how far you turned your head to the right at that time?

Mr. Greer. Just so that my eyes over, caught the Governor, I could see, I couldn't see the President. I just could see the Governor. I made a quick glance and back again.

Mr. Specter. Was the movement of your head just then approximately the same?

Mr. Greer. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. As the time?

Mr. Greer. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. You just indicated the turn of your head slightly to the right.

Mr. Greer. My eyes slightly more than my head. My eyes went more than my head around. I had vision real quick of it.

Mr. Specter. Exactly where was Governor Connally when you first caught him out of the corner of your eye?

Mr. Greer. He was—he seemed to be falling a little bit toward Mrs. Connally, to the left. He started to go over a little bit to the left.

Mr. Specter. And how far did you catch his movement during the time you were able to observe him?

Mr. Greer. Just a second. He probably hadn't gotten his shoulder, he hadn't fell down or anything. He probably was in a position such as I am now.

Mr. Specter. Did he fall to the rear or to the side or how?

Mr. Greer. In my opinion, he fell toward Mrs. Connally which would be to his left or to his side.

119 Mr. Specter. Did he fall then on his left shoulder and arm or in some other way?

Mr. Greer. He appeared to me to be falling on his left shoulder when I glanced. He had only started to move that way whenever he—when I saw him.

Mr. Specter. Were you able to see anything of President Kennedy as you glanced to the rear?

Mr. Greer. No, sir; I didn't see anything of the President. I didn't look, I wasn't far enough around to see the President.

Mr. Specter. When you started that glance, are you able to recollect whether you started to glance before, exactly simultaneously with or after that second shot?

Mr. Greer. It was almost simultaneously that he had—something had hit, you know, when I had seen him. It seemed like in the same second almost that something had hit, you know, whenever I turned around. I saw him start to fall.

Mr. Specter. Did you step on the accelerator before, simultaneously or after Mr. Kellerman instructed you to accelerate?

Mr. Greer. It was about simultaneously.

Mr. Specter. So that it was your reaction to accelerate prior to the time——

Mr. Greer. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. You had gotten that instruction?

Mr. Greer. Yes, sir; it was my reaction that caused me to accelerate.

Mr. Specter. Do you recollect whether you accelerated before or at the same time or after the third shot?

Mr. Greer. I couldn't really say. Just as soon as I turned my head back from the second shot, right away I accelerated right then. It was a matter of my reflexes to the accelerator.

Mr. Specter. Was it at about that time that you heard the third shot?

Mr. Greer. Yes, sir; just as soon as I turned my head.

Mr. Specter. What is your best estimate of the speed of the car at the time of the first, second, or third shots?

Mr. Greer. I would estimate my speed was between 12 and 15 miles per hour.

Mr. Specter. At the time all of the shots occurred?

Mr. Greer. At the time the shots occurred.

Mr. Specter. Now what, if anything, was Mr. Kellerman doing at the time of the first shot?

Mr. Greer. I couldn't really speak for where he was watching, what part of the street or the buildings or what he was watching at that time. I don't really know.

Mr. Specter. Do you know what Mr. Kellerman was doing at the time of the second shot?

Mr. Greer. He was sitting there in the front. No, sir; I don't know what his action was then. I was watching the overpass, I wasn't looking his way.

Mr. Specter. When you were watching the overpass at that time, did you observe anything on the overpass?

Mr. Greer. Not that I can remember now.

Mr. Specter. Did you observe that there was no one present on the overpass?

Mr. Greer. My recollection, there may have been a police officer up there. It is vague to me now everything that I had seen at that time.

Mr. Specter. Do you know what Mr. Kellerman was doing at the time of the third shot?

Mr. Greer. No, sir; I couldn't say what he was doing.

Mr. Specter. Was there any radio communication between your automobile and any of the other automobiles?

Mr. Greer. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. Who made that radio communication?

Mr. Greer. Kellerman.

120 Mr. Specter. Tell us as precisely as you can when he made that radio communication.

Mr. Greer. After he had said to me, "Get out of here fast." He got the radio and called to the lead car, "Get us to a hospital fast, nearest hospital fast."

Mr. Specter. Do you recall whether he said anything else at that time?

Mr. Greer. After he had said to me, he said, "12:30," and that is all I remember him saying to me was 12:30, and he had communications with the cars but I don't remember what he had said to them.

Mr. Specter. Did he say just "12:30," or was it 12:30 used in a sentence?

Mr. Greer. He said "12:30." He looked at his watch, he said "12:30," and we were in the underpass at the time.

Mr. Specter. Mr. Greer, would you on Commission's Exhibit 347, mark with an "A" as best you can indicate the position of the President's automobile at the time of the first shot?

Mr. Greer. Do you want me to mark it on this exhibit?

Mr. Specter. Right there, that is right, that red pencil with an "A," a small "A."

Mr. Greer. This is the center, I would say [indicating].

Mr. Specter. Will you mark your best estimate as to the position of the automobile at the time of the second shot with the letter "B"?

Mr. Greer. I would have to guess how far I had traveled at that time. I really wouldn't know. It was probably a little farther, only guessing how far I would go. I am guessing as to the distance between them. Maybe farther but I am only guessing to say at that. I wouldn't have any definite reason.

Mr. Specter. Would you make that "B" a little plainer, if you can?

Mr. Greer. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Could you give us the best estimate in feet as to the distance you traveled from the time of the first shot to the time of the second shot?

Mr. Greer. No, sir; I don't believe I could. Anything I would say would be guessing.

Mr. Specter. Would you be able to give us a meaningful mark on the overhead photograph as to the position of your car at the time of the third shot?

Mr. Greer. From this overhead. I probably was where this mark is here.

Mr. Specter. Would you mark it?

Mr. Greer. I will put it alongside.

Mr. Specter. Put a little "C."

Mr. Greer. This was for the third shot.

Mr. Specter. Yes, sir.

Mr. Greer. This is "C." This not having an idea really of how much footage is in there at all. I wouldn't——

The Chairman. I didn't understand.

Mr. Greer. I said I wouldn't probably know, Mr. Chief Justice, how many feet would be in that distance, I would be guessing how many feet.

The Chairman. Yes; I understand.

Mr. Specter. Did you have any opportunity to observe the overhead as you were driving along after the last shot occurred?

Mr. Greer. No, sir. I was fairly close to it, to the best of my memory, and I was trying to watch then where I was going. I had to look ahead to see, I was catching up on the lead car real fast, and I had to watch what was ahead of me.

Mr. Specter. How fast was it possible to accelerate your automobile at that time?

Mr. Greer. Well, it is a very heavy automobile, and it does not pick up too fast on account of the weight. I have never tested to see how many feet I could travel in a second. I have never had any reason to test it to see how much I could travel. But it was in low gear at that time, and that helps you to accelerate a lot faster.

Mr. Specter. Would you characterize it as a very rapid or a rapid acceleration?

Mr. Greer. No.

Mr. Specter. Or how would you characterize it?

Mr. Greer. It is a very smooth car taking off anyway, and I would say it121 wasn't rapid. It is fairly fast in low gear but not rapid like a light car will be.

Mr. Specter. Does that car have an automatic transmission?

Mr. Greer. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. And what are the varieties of forward speeds in the vehicle?

Mr. Greer. It has a low gear and then it has drive one and drive two. It has two top gears. One has, one probably has, free wheeling more than the other. The other is not a free wheeling gear.

Mr. Specter. How fast can the car be driven in the low gear?

Mr. Greer. I would say safely you can drive it up to 40 miles an hour in low gear. That is estimating it at 40.

Mr. Specter. From the time of the first shot until the time of the third shot, was your car moving in a straight line or in an arc or how would you describe it?

Mr. Greer. I was following the contour of the road, the center of the contour of the road as it goes.

Mr. Specter. What is the path of the contour of the road?

Mr. Greer. Well, at the time I didn't think much of it but it is a little, there is a little bend in the road going to the underpass.

Mr. Specter. Did you hear anyone in the car say anything from the time of the first shot until the time of the third shot?

Mr. Greer. Not to the best of my recollection, I don't remember.

(At this point, Representative Boggs entered the hearing room.)

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. Specter. Mr. Greer, did you hear anyone say anything from the time of the third shot until the time of arrival at Parkland Hospital?

Mr. Greer. No, sir; I didn't. I didn't hear, I can't remember hearing anyone say anything at all. We were quite preoccupied to get to the hospital as fast as we can, as we could, and that was my mind was really occupied on what I was doing. I didn't hear anything.

Mr. Specter. Do you know what speed you were traveling at en route to the hospital?

Mr. Greer. No, sir; I couldn't say. I was just getting through the traffic and through the streets as fast as I could get through.

Mr. Specter. Would you have any estimate at all on speed?

Mr. Greer. I would estimate that I must have been doing 40 or 50, at least 50 miles an hour at times. We might have been going as fast as 50 miles an hour, I am sure.

Mr. Specter. When you accelerated your automobile, did you at any time come alongside of or pass the police car in front of you?

Mr. Greer. No, sir; I never passed it. I came up alongside one or two motorcycle men and I called to them "get to a hospital fast". You know, I called to them "hospital".

Mr. Specter. Were you led to the hospital?

Mr. Greer. Yes, sir; I was led to the hospital by the police car who was preceding me.

Mr. Specter. Did you have any independent knowledge of the route from where you were?

Mr. Greer. No, sir.

Mr. Specter. From the point of assassination to the hospital?

Mr. Greer. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. Specter. Were you escorted by any other automobiles besides the police car in front of you?

Mr. Greer. We had motorcycles and I don't know if there were other police cars out in front of that or not. I am sure there may have been, but I couldn't say right now.

Mr. Specter. Was there any radio communication between your automobile and the hospital at any time prior to your arrival at the hospital?

Mr. Greer. No, sir; not between the hospital and our car.

Mr. Specter. Did Mr. Kellerman have any radio contact at all with anyone in addition to that which you have already described?

Mr. Greer. He may have had some more communications to the car, the lead car, but I can't remember what they were now.

122 Mr. Specter. Did you observe any bullets strike any portion of the car or ricochet in any way during the course of the shooting?

Mr. Greer. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. Specter. Did you observe any bullets or fragments of bullets at rest in the car after the shooting terminated?

Mr. Greer. No, sir; I didn't. I left the car at the hospital and I didn't see it any more until the next day.

Mr. Specter. I hand you Commission Exhibit No. 349, Mr. Greer, and ask if you are able to identify what that picture represents?

Mr. Greer. That represents the windshield of the car.

Mr. Specter. Of the President's car?

Mr. Greer. Yes, sir; it looks like the windshield of the President's car.

Mr. Specter. Now calling your attention to a small arrow——

Mr. Greer. Arrow.

Mr. Specter. Which points up on what appears to be an indentation, I ask you if you—when was the first time, if at all, that you observed that indentation?

Mr. Greer. I didn't observe that——

Mr. Specter. On the car?

Mr. Greer. Until after I got back to Washington, until the car came back to Washington. I saw it at the White House garage. It was the first time I had ever noticed that.

Mr. Specter. On what date did you observe that indentation on the car?

Mr. Greer. That was the day after, the 23, would be it. It would be the day after the shooting. We got back from Dallas.

Mr. Specter. And what time of the day did you observe the car at the White House garage on that date?

Mr. Greer. It was in the afternoon, I believe. I believe it was in the afternoon, I believe.

Mr. Specter. Did anyone call that indentation to your attention at that time?

Mr. Greer. Yes; I was asked if I knew about it.

Mr. Specter. Who was it who asked you?

Mr. Greer. I can't remember now who did say that, but I was shown that indentation at the same time I was the break in the glass. I was shown both and asked if I had known but I can't remember who might have asked me.

Mr. Specter. Had you ever observed that indentation before the assassination occurred?

Mr. Greer. No, sir. I had never noticed it before at any time. I had never seen it before.

Mr. Specter. Had you ever had any occasion to examine closely that metallic area to ascertain whether or not there was such an indentation prior to the assassination?

Mr. Greer. Well, it seems to me I would have prior to that had it been there because I do take care of the car sometimes, and it had never been—I had never noticed it at any previous time.

Mr. Specter. I hand you Commission Exhibit 350 and ask you if you are able to state what that depicts?

Mr. Greer. That depicts a break or a shatter in the windshield of it.

Mr. Specter. Does that picture accurately represent the status of the windshield on the President's car at sometime?

Mr. Greer. Yes, sir; that windshield looks real familiar to me on the way it——

Mr. Specter. At what time, based on your observation, did the windshield of the President's car look like that picture?

Mr. Greer. I had never seen that until the following day after it came back from Dallas.

Mr. Specter. But on November 23, did the President's car windshield look like that?

Mr. Greer. Yes, sir; it looked like there was a break that had a diamond, in the windshield whenever I was shown that at the garage, the White House garage.

123 Mr. Specter. Was the size and scope of the crack the same as that which is shown on that exhibit?

Mr. Greer. That I wouldn't remember whether it was quite that large or not. I don't believe it was that big. It might not have been but I wouldn't say for sure.

Mr. Specter. Did you observe any crack on the windshield after the time of the shooting on November 22?

Mr. Greer. No, sir; I didn't see it at all. I didn't know anything about it until I came back, until the car came back and I was shown that.

Mr. Specter. Did you have any occasion on November 22, after the shooting, to observe closely the windshield?

Mr. Greer. No, sir. The only time I was in the car was going to the hospital and I never—I didn't see the car any more. It was just from the shooting until we got to Parkland that I was with the car. I left the car there and never did see it until it was back at the White House garage.

Mr. Specter. Are you able to state with certainty there was no crack in that windshield prior to the shooting on November 22?

Mr. Greer. Yes, sir; I am sure there was nothing wrong with that windshield prior to that because I would have—it was almost in front of me and I examined the car. I looked it all over when I got there. I saw it was clean and everything, the windshield. I didn't see this ever at any time previous.

Mr. Specter. Mr. Greer, I now call your attention to a windshield which has been marked as Commission Exhibit No. 351, and I will ask you to take a look at it and identify it for us, if you can, calling your attention first of all to the windshield itself. Are you able to state——

Mr. Greer. Yes, sir; this is the windshield that came out of the Lincoln.

Mr. Specter. That you were operating on the day of the assassination?

Mr. Greer. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. Can you describe what cracks, if any, which you see now on that windshield were present?

Mr. Greer. When I looked——

Mr. Specter. When you observed the automobile windshield on November 23, the next day?

Mr. Greer. This little star, the star in here with the little star. These cracks were not there.

Mr. Specter. Now by these cracks you are indicating——

Mr. Greer. These.

Mr. Specter. The long cracks which radiate off from the center?

Mr. Greer. That is right. This was the only cracks that I could see was this star-type fragment.

Mr. Specter. There you are indicating what would be described as the principal point of contact which was present when you observed it on November 23?

Mr. Greer. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. Give me your best estimate on the diameter of the cracking of the windshield as it existed on November 23?

Mr. Greer. To the best of my estimate it would be these little stars that are here, the little shatters that are here.

Mr. Specter. Would it be fair to say that you are indicating a circle with a circumference or diameter of approximately an inch to an inch and a half?

Mr. Greer. I don't think—it probably would be an inch. The whole diameter.

Mr. Specter. Approximately 1 inch as you estimate it?

Mr. Greer. Yes, sir.

Representative Boggs. Excuse me, did you say you did not notice this crack from the time that you drove the car after the shooting to the hospital?

Mr. Greer. No, sir; I had flags on the car and you know they were waving at a high rate of speed and you have the Presidential flag and the American flag in front of you there; you know when you are going at a fast speed you get a lot of, well, I don't know how you would say it, it attracts you so much that I didn't have any recollection of what happened on the windshield.

Representative Boggs. There was no glass or anything that spattered on you in any way?

Mr. Greer. No, sir; I didn't feel anything at all. I didn't feel a thing hit me.124 I was kind of shocked at the time, I guess anything could have and I wouldn't have known what hit me. You are tense, I was pretty tense, and naturally my thoughts were the hospital, and how fast I could get there, and probably I could have been injured and not even known I was injured. I was in that position.

Mr. Specter. Mr. Greer, what is your best estimate and recollection of the time that the shooting occurred?

Mr. Greer. Well, Mr. Kellerman saying 12:30 to me makes me—that stays in my mind foremost, and that was when we had just left the scene of the shooting, a few seconds or a second or two from it. That is why that 12:30 stays in my mind, him saying 12:30 to me right after the shooting, he said. His watch may not have been correct but that is what he said to me at the time.

Mr. Specter. What is your best estimate of the distance between the point where the assassination occurred and Parkland Hospital?

Mr. Greer. No, sir; I haven't. It seemed like endless miles and probably wasn't very far, but it seemed like to me it was endless getting there. I was——

Mr. Specter. Are you able to give us an estimate with reasonable accuracy on the time it took?

Mr. Greer. No, sir.

Mr. Specter. From the time it took from the point of the shooting until you arrived at Parkland Hospital?

Mr. Greer. I didn't check anything but I thought that probably it would probably be 6 or 8 minutes. I am not too sure, somewhere in the vicinity of 5 and 10 minutes. I would have to guess at that.

Mr. Specter. How did you know which entrance of the hospital to go to?

Mr. Greer. I followed the car that was in front of me right to where he stopped and I was right at the entrance. The car stopped and I stopped alongside of him.

Mr. Specter. Which entrance was that?

Mr. Greer. It seems, I think it was the emergency entrance, I am almost sure. It was like a bay that you could pull in and out of. It looked like an ambulance entrance.

Mr. Specter. What did you observe with respect to President Kennedy's condition on arrival at the Parkland Hospital?

Mr. Greer. To the best of my knowledge he was laying, it seemed across Mrs. Kennedy, looked like laying across her lap or in front of her, I am not too sure which, I opened the doors—the doors were opened before I got to it, someone else had opened the doors and they were trying to get Connally out, and Mrs. Connally out of the seats so they could get to the President.

Mr. Specter. What did you observe about the President with respect to his wounds?

Mr. Greer. His head was all shot, this whole part was all a matter of blood like he had been hit.

Mr. Specter. Indicating the top and right rear side of the head?

Mr. Greer. Yes, sir; it looked like that was all blown off.

Mr. Specter. Yes.

Mr. Greer. I run around the front of the car and got hold of a stretcher or thing and I got hold of it to keep it steady while they lifted the President's body onto it and then I helped pull the front end of it into the emergency room.

Mr. Specter. Who was first removed from the automobile?

Mr. Greer. Governor Connally was first removed. He was on the jump seats.

Mr. Specter. And what, if anything, did you observe as to Governor Connally's condition on arrival at Parkland Hospital?

Mr. Greer. The best of my recollection he was lying across the seat toward Mrs. Connally when they picked him up and got him out of the car. And he was rushed in first into the hospital. That is when I got the stretcher to bring it, to hold it until they would get the President on it, on the right side of the car. They took him out on the side he was sitting on, that side of the car.

Mr. Specter. Were you able to make any personal observation about Governor Connally's specific wound?

Mr. Greer. No, sir. I didn't know how badly anyone really was injured. I had great thoughts the President was still living and that was the only thing I was thinking about was to get them in quick.

125 Mr. Specter. Did you observe anything specific which led you to the conclusion that the President was still living?

Mr. Greer. No, sir. When he was in the emergency room and I was there, I did see his chest expand and move, the movement of the chest a time or so.

Mr. Specter. Were you able to observe any wound on the front side of the President?

Mr. Greer. No, sir; I didn't, I never seen any on the front side of the President. The only thing I saw was on the head. I didn't know at the time of any other injuries on him.

Mr. Specter. As to the front side of the President's body, were you able to observe any hole or tear in either his shirt or tie?

Mr. Greer. No, sir; I didn't and I brought them back, those things, and I didn't see them at the time. I probably didn't inspect them very closely but they were handed to me in a paper bag to bring back.

Mr. Specter. When did you acquire custody and possession of those items of clothing?

Mr. Greer. After they had made the President's body ready for removal, I was in the emergency room, and a nurse got two shopping bags and I held them and she put the President's suit, his belongings into the two bags including his shoes and socks, and his pants and jacket which they had torn and the shirt they had torn, they had torn it to take it off him, and the nurse put these into the two bags and I got custody of them right then from the nurse at the emergency room.

Mr. Specter. Were there any other items of wearing apparel such as shorts or undershirt?

Mr. Greer. Yes, sir; his shorts and that brace he wore, whatever it was, and his sox and shoes, and shirt, and his trousers, and his suit coat.

Mr. Specter. Are you able to state with certainty that there was no undershirt?

Mr. Greer. Yes, sir; there was no undershirt. I am sure there was no undershirt. I would have to say it to the best of my recollection, there was no undershirt. I had been with him so many times and I knew he didn't normally wear an undershirt because I had heard him one time previously, I offered him a coat.

He said, "I have an undershirt on today," it was at some ballgame. He normally didn't wear an undershirt.

Mr. Specter. Can you describe with more particularity the brace you just said he was wearing?

Mr. Greer. It looked like a, I would say, a corset-type brace, maybe 6 inches wide, he wore it around his, down low around his, haunches, a little lower than the waist, probably, just probably below his belt he wore it there. It was something he normally wore, and I would guess, but I would say it was of a soft, maybe a kind of corset-type material, maybe elastic or something like that support.

Mr. Specter. Mr. Greer, when your automobile arrived at Parkland, was there any medical individual awaiting your arrival?

Mr. Greer. I can't remember—there were—who brought the stretchers out. There were some hospital people there, but who they were, I never got—I couldn't identify or knew who they were. There were some medical people there; yes.

Mr. Specter. Where were they when you first saw hospital personnel?

Mr. Greer. When I pulled into the ambulance entrance there were some people there on the right-hand side with these stretchers that they had rushed out. I don't know just who they were from the hospital staff. There was a great deal of confusion because everyone was trying to help, the agents were there.

Mr. Specter. Are you able to state whether there was a doctor in attendance at that time?

Mr. Greer. No, sir; I couldn't state that.

Mr. Specter. What did you do after your arrival at Parkland Hospital?

Mr. Greer. I helped pull it, take the stretcher into the emergency room that he was on. It is on wheels, and I helped to take that in, and I stayed inside126 the door of the emergency room most of the time while they were, the doctors were, working on the President's body.

Mr. Specter. How many doctors were working on him in the emergency room?

Mr. Greer. There were, between nurses and doctors. I would estimate there were, between 10 or 12 people, maybe not that many, 8 to 10 people in and out of that room. I don't know how many of them were doctors, attendants, nurses, and things like that with white jackets and they would come in and say, "I am doctor so-and-so."

Mr. Specter. How long were they working on him there in the emergency room?

Mr. Greer. I couldn't remember the time.

Mr. Specter. You say you were with him most of the time?

Mr. Greer. I was inside the door. I know, I kept the door closed most of the time, let doctors and nurses in and out while he was—while they were working on him. I stayed inside the emergency room door.

Mr. Specter. Was there any special reason for you to leave part of the time?

Mr. Greer. No, sir; I didn't go any farther away than outside the door.

Mr. Specter. Were there any other Secret Service agents inside the emergency room at that time?

Mr. Greer. Not at that time; I was inside the door.

Mr. Specter. Where was Mrs. Kennedy at this time?

Mr. Greer. Mrs. Kennedy was outside the door. They got her a chair out there for a little while and then she insisted on coming in and she got in the corner for a little while there and stayed there a little while and I don't quite remember the time she went over to his body but she did go over there, and I don't remember how far along the doctors had been on him when that happened.

Mr. Specter. Were you able to overhear any of the conversations among the doctors in the emergency room?

Mr. Greer. I don't understand anything that they were discussing at all.

Mr. Specter. Did a priest or more than one priest come upon the scene?

Mr. Greer. I believe there were two. To the best of my recollection there eventually was two.

Mr. Specter. How long after President Kennedy arrived at the emergency room did the priest arrive, if you recollect?

Mr. Greer. No, sir; I wouldn't have any idea, it seemed to me it was quite a little while in the matter, probably minutes.

Mr. Specter. Approximately how long did the priests stay?

Mr. Greer. I don't remember that, sir.

Mr. Specter. Did they say anything on leaving or in entering?

Mr. Greer. Not that I heard of personally. I was outside the room when the priest was in there. I wasn't in the emergency room while he was in.

Mr. Specter. When did you find that the President had died?

Mr. Greer. When the priest was in to give him the last rites then I knew that.

Mr. Specter. Do you have any reasonably close estimate on when the President did die?

Mr. Greer. No, sir; I haven't right off. I would have to look at some reports.

Mr. Specter. What did you do after the President was pronounced dead?

Mr. Greer. We stayed there until everything was settled up. I believe there was a judge came in there and I think, someone came in and made the decisions on removing the body and the casket was brought in, and the body was put in the casket. I had this, his clothing, I kept it in my hand at all times, all the time. Then I went, when they removed the casket from the emergency room, I was in front of it going out to make a path to get it to the ambulance.

So, I helped get it into the ambulance and then I drove a car with some agents and some people right behind the ambulance to Love Field back to the airport again and helped to get the casket aboard the airplane.

Mr. Specter. Were you present at the swearing in of President Johnson?

Mr. Greer. Yes, sir; I was—we were all asked to come back into the state room but I wasn't in too close. I was in the main part of the plane, as close as I could get to it, yes.

127 Mr. Specter. How did you personally return to Washington, D.C.?

Mr. Greer. I returned on Air Force 1 with the President's remains.

Mr. Specter. And at approximately what time did you leave Dallas to fly back?

Mr. Greer. I would have to look in my reports to say exactly. I would have to go back on the times. Two something but I don't remember.

Mr. Specter. Do you have any idea of the time you arrived in the Washington area?

Mr. Greer. I believe it was 6 or 6:15. As I say I have it in my reports but I haven't looked at the times recently.

Mr. Specter. Where did you arrive in the Washington area?

Mr. Greer. At Andrews Air Force Base.

Mr. Specter. What did you do next in connection with this matter?

Mr. Greer. I helped to get the casket out of the plane, and put it into a Navy ambulance and then I drove that Navy ambulance to Bethesda Naval Center.

Mr. Specter. What did you do upon arriving at the Bethesda Naval Center?

Mr. Greer. I stayed in, while the autopsy was being performed, I stayed in the autopsy room with Mr. Kellerman and the doctors and the people who were in there. I stayed in there and observed what was necessary that I could do.

Mr. Specter. Were any Secret Service Agents present besides you and Mr. Kellerman?

Mr. Greer. No, sir.

Mr. Specter. At the autopsy?

Mr. Greer. There may have been, Mr. Hill may have come in and out but he didn't stay there. Mr. Kellerman and I stayed permanently the whole time there. There may have been, Mr. Hill may have come in there and have gone back out but he didn't stay in there.

Mr. Specter. During the course of the autopsy did you hear any doctor say anything about the wound on the right side of Mr. Kennedy's back?

Mr. Greer. That was the first time that I had ever seen it, when the doctors were performing the autopsy, they saw this hole in the right shoulder or back of the head, and in the back, and that was the first I had known that he was ever shot there, and they brought it to our attention or discussed it there a little bit.

Mr. Specter. What conversation was there concerning the wound on the right back?

Mr. Greer. Well, the doctors and people who were performing the autopsy, when they turned the body apparently over they discovered that this wound was in the back, and they thought that they probably could get a bullet out of there, and it took a lot of—then they took more X-rays, they took a lot of X-rays, we looked at them and couldn't find the trace of any bullet anywhere in the X-rays at all, nothing showed on the X-rays where this bullet or lead could have gone.

Mr. Specter. Approximately where in the President's back was the bullet hole?

Mr. Greer. It was, to the best of my recollection it was, back here, just in the soft part of that shoulder.

Mr. Specter. Indicating the upper right shoulder area?

Mr. Greer. Upper right, yes.

Mr. Specter. Was there any effort made to probe that wound by any doctor?

Mr. Greer. I believe, yes, I believe the doctors probed to see if they could find that there was a bullet there.

Mr. Specter. Do you know which doctor that was?

Mr. Greer. No, sir; I don't, I don't have their names at this time.

Mr. Specter. Did any doctor make any statement about the results of his probing effort?

Mr. Greer. I questioned one of the doctors in there about that, and when we found out that they had found a bullet in Dallas, I questioned the doctor about it and he said if they were using pressure on the chest that it could very well have been, come back out, where it went in at, that is what they said at the time.

(At this point, Representative Ford entered the hearing room.)

Mr. Specter. Was anything said about any channel being present in the body for the bullet to have gone on through the back?

Mr. Greer. No, sir; I hadn't heard anything like that, any trace of it going on through.

128 Mr. Specter. Did you just mention, Mr. Greer, a hole in the President's head in addition to the large area of the skull which was shot away?

Mr. Greer. No. I had just seen that, you know, the head was damaged in all this part of it but I believe looking at the X-rays, I looked at the X-rays when they were taken in the autopsy room, and the person who does that type work showed us the trace of it because there would be little specks of lead where the bullet had come from here and it came to the—they showed where it didn't come on through. It came to a sinus cavity or something they said, over the eye.

Mr. Specter. Indicating the right eye.

Mr. Greer. I may be wrong.

Mr. Specter. You don't know which eye?

Mr. Greer. I don't know which eye, I may be wrong. But they showed us the trace of it coming through but there were very little small specks on the X-rays that these professionals knew what course that the bullet had taken, the lead.

Mr. Specter. Would you describe in very general terms what injury you observed as to the President's head during the course of the autopsy?

Mr. Greer. I would—to the best of my recollection it was in this part of the head right here.

Mr. Specter. Upper right?

Mr. Greer. Upper right side.

Mr. Specter. Upper right side, going toward the rear.

And what was the condition of the skull at that point?

Mr. Greer. The skull was completely—this part was completely gone.

Mr. Specter. Now, aside from that opening which you have described and you have indicated a circle with a diameter of approximately 5 inches, would you say that is about what you have indicated there?

Mr. Greer. Approximately I would say 5 inches; yes.

Mr. Specter. Did you observe any other opening or hole of any sort in the head itself?

Mr. Greer. No, sir; I didn't. No other one.

Mr. Specter. Specifically did you observe a hole which would be below the large area of skull which was absent?

Mr. Greer. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. Specter. Did you have occasion to look in the back of the head immediately below where the skull was missing?

Mr. Greer. No; I can't remember even examining the head that close at that time.

Mr. Specter. When President Kennedy was being treated in the emergency room at Parkland Hospital, were any pictures or X-rays taken of him there?

Mr. Greer. No, sir; not that I know of. I didn't see any being taken.

Mr. Specter. Was he ever turned over that you observed while being treated at Parkland Hospital?

Mr. Greer. No, sir. I can't recollect him ever being turned over.

Mr. Specter. Do you have any recollection that he was in fact not turned over?

Mr. Greer. No, sir; I couldn't even say. I didn't see them turn him over in any way in my vision, although my back was to him quite often and because I was attending to the door and they could have done it.

Mr. Specter. Was he on a stretcher at the time he was being worked on at Parkland Hospital?

Mr. Greer. I can't remember whether they changed him from a stretcher to a table. I am not sure on that.

Mr. Specter. Mr. Greer, as to the return of the President's automobile to Washington, do you know how that was accomplished?

Mr. Greer. It was driven to Love Field, and put aboard the same C-130 it was taken out on and flown back to Andrews Air Force Base.

Mr. Specter. Do you know when it was returned from Dallas to the Washington area?

Mr. Greer. I believe it was returned shortly after, it left shortly after, the President's plane left, was flown back.

Mr. Specter. I hand you two photographs marked Commission Exhibit No. 352 and Commission Exhibit No. 353.

129 Do those photographs represent the condition of the back seat of the President's car at some time?

Mr. Greer. Yes, sir; they do.

Mr. Specter. And at what time do those pictures look just as the back seat of the President's car looked?

Mr. Greer. It looked like that when it came back from Dallas.

Mr. Specter. Did it look like that immediately after President Kennedy was removed from the back seat?

Mr. Greer. I wasn't there any more, sir. I was with the President after they lifted him out. I didn't see the car after he had been removed.

Mr. Specter. Did you observe the back seat of the car at any time from the time you arrived at Parkland Hospital until you observed the automobile in Washington?

Mr. Greer. No, sir.

Mr. Specter. On November 23?

Mr. Greer. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. Specter. By the way, Mr. Greer, how much, approximately, does or did the President's automobile weigh?

Mr. Greer. It weighed between—well, for flight reason we said 8,000, but it wasn't that much. It probably was 7,500. We had extra weight on it.

Mr. Specter. Are you able to tell the Commission the dimensions of the automobile, indicating its length?

Mr. Greer. Yes, sir. It is 21 feet 8 inches long.

Mr. Specter. And how wide?

Mr. Greer. I would have to go back for the width on it. I have it all in black and white in the office, but I haven't got it with me in my head right now; I am sorry.

Mr. Specter. Could three people sit comfortably in the front seat of the automobile?

Mr. Greer. Yes, sir; it was wide enough for three. We many times had an aide in there; many times, an aide rode in the front.

Mr. Specter. Was it as wide or wider than, say, a Cadillac automobile?

Mr. Greer. No, sir; it would be probably the same width.

Representative Boggs. Was that car specially made for the President?

Mr. Greer. Yes, sir; it was a specially built car.

Representative Boggs. Was it a Lincoln Continental?

Mr. Greer. Yes, sir; a Lincoln Continental.

Representative Boggs. How did it differ from the ordinary Lincoln?

Mr. Greer. Well, Lincoln doesn't make a seven-passenger car, and this was a seven-passenger car. The back seat on this car would raise 8 inches. It was electric, and you could lift, you could raise, the seat up 8 inches from the ground, from the floorboards. It had a little step that went with it. The President could raise it up and down himself. He had a button alongside that would cause it to go up and down when the top wasn't down. It wouldn't go up and down when the top was down. But when it was off he could raise it up or down, and it would be above the other seat.

Mr. Specter. Do you know whether the seat was actually raised at the time of the assassination?

Mr. Greer. No, sir; I couldn't say right off. I don't believe it was, but I wouldn't know.

Mr. Specter. Going back to the shots themselves, Mr. Greer, do you have any reaction as to the direction from which the shots came?

Mr. Greer. They sounded like they were behind me, to the right rear of me.

Mr. Specter. Would that be as to all three shots?

Mr. Greer. Yes, sir. They sounded, everything sounded, behind me, to me. That was my thought, train of thought, that they were behind me.

Mr. Specter. Have you ever had any reaction or thought at any time since the assassination that the shots came from the front of the car?

Mr. Greer. No, sir; I had never even the least thought that they could come. There was no thought in my mind other than that they were behind me.

Mr. Specter. Yes, sir.

130 The Chairman. Congressman Boggs, are there any questions you would like to ask the agent?

Representative Boggs. I don't think so, Mr. Chairman.

The Chairman. Congressman Ford.

Representative Ford. Did you ever have any thought there were more than three shots?

Mr. Greer. No, sir; I never did.

Representative Ford. Did you positively identify the fact that there were one, two, three, or was there one, and then a delay, and then a flurry?

Mr. Greer. To the best of my recollection, Congressman, was that the last two were closer together than the first one. It seemed like the first one, and then there was, you know, bang, bang, just right behind it almost. The two seemed, the last two seemed, closer to me than the other.

Representative Boggs. Did you speed up after you heard the first shot?

Mr. Greer. After I heard the second. The first one didn't sink into me, didn't give me the thought that it was a shot. I thought it was the backfire of a motorcycle. But when I heard the second one and glanced over my shoulder, I knew something was wrong then. I didn't know how bad anyone was injured or anything, but I knew there was something wrong, and right away after the second one I accelerated as fast as I could.

The Chairman. Mr. Craig, would you like to ask any questions?

Mr. Craig. Thank you, Mr. Chief Justice.

With respect to the position of the President's car that you were driving as it approached the underpass, you state now that you couldn't fix any specific distance. But would you say it was less than a mile that the President's car was from the overpass?

Mr. Greer. Oh, definitely. I couldn't say in feet or yards, but it was within—it was feet. I would say probably a hundred or 200 feet. It could be within that; it was definitely right up close to me, but I——

Mr. Craig. With respect to your vision, was it unobstructed down the roadway, looking at the overpass?

Mr. Greer. Yes, sir; there were no obstructions in the road that I could see.

Mr. Craig. As I recall your testimony, you were actually observing the overpass to see if there was any person there.

Mr. Greer. People up there at that time I would be doubtful of going underneath.

Mr. Craig. Yes, sir. And you say now you do not recollect that you saw anyone there?

Mr. Greer. Yes, sir.

Mr. Craig. You said also, I believe, that it was some time now since you made that observation. Did you make any report of any kind with respect to anyone being on the overpass immediately after this incident?

Mr. Greer. No, sir.

Mr. Craig. You made no written report to anybody as to whether or not there were people on the overpass or were not people?

Mr. Greer. No, sir; I haven't.

Mr. Craig. Do you believe if you had observed people on the overpass at that time you would now remember it?

Mr. Greer. Yes, sir; I believe I would; yes, sir.

Mr. Craig. If you had observed people on the overpass as you proceeded toward it, and they were other than a policeman or policemen or some other law-enforcement agent, what would you have done?

Mr. Greer. Well, I try never to go underneath a bridge if there are people up over it, if there are people who I don't know as law enforcement. I try not to go underneath them. I will probably veer to one side of them at any time. That is a matter of our training, that we try not to go underneath anyone with an open car where anyone could drop something.

Mr. Craig. Would you ever stop, if necessary, if you thought there were people up there that you couldn't veer around?

Mr. Greer. If there was any danger there I would have to either change my way of traveling. I have never had it happen, and never had any reason to, but we try, I try, not to go underneath a group of people standing on any131 overpass at any time. I try to move over, if the condition permits me to. Sometimes, when the road is too narrow, I couldn't. But that is part of our procedure, I think, to see that no one is on an overpass.

Mr. Craig. That is all.

The Chairman. If there are no further questions——

Mr. Specter. Mr. Chief Justice, may I ask one or two other questions?

The Chairman. Yes.

Mr. Specter. I have just noted that we have the report of the FBI which bears Bureau file No. 105-S, as it appears here somewhat indistinct, S-2555, "Report of Special Agent Robert P. Gemberling, dated December 10, 1963," and this refers, Mr. Greer, to an interview of you by Special Agents Francis X. O'Neill, Jr., and James W. Sibert. There is a report here of an interview of you and of Special Agent Kellerman, and the date here is listed as November 22, 1963, and there is this reference made in the report, and I will quote it verbatim:

"Greer stated that he first heard what he thought was possibly a motorcycle backfire, and glanced around and noticed that the President had evidently been hit. He thereafter got on the radio and communicated with the other vehicles stating that they desired to get the President to the hospital immediately."

Mr. Greer. I didn't go on the radio. It was Mr. Kellerman who done the radio talking. I didn't. It is a misquote if I done it. I didn't get on the radio. Mr. Kellerman did.

Mr. Specter. Did you ever make this statement, Mr. Greer, to Special Agent O'Neill or Sibert?

Mr. Greer. Those two agents were in during the autopsy; those two agents were in the autopsy room, with Mr. Kellerman and I, all night. Mr. Sibert and O'Neill were both in the autopsy room with us during that time, and the only time that any of us, either Mr. Kellerman or I, we never left the room, one or the other. We went and got some coffee and came right back, something like that, and the FBI did the same thing. One of them left; the other stayed.

Mr. Specter. Do you now recollect whether or not you ever said to them that you were the one who communicated on the radio with the other vehicles?

Mr. Greer. No, sir; I know I never remember saying that to them because I know I didn't do it. So that is how I know that I didn't say it, because I know I didn't do it. Mr. Kellerman did.

Mr. Specter. And the first part refers to your noticing that the President evidently had been hit. Did you ever——

Mr. Greer. I have no recollection of ever telling the agents that I said that; no, sir. If I said it, I don't remember saying it. The Governor was the person that I knew was—when we were first in trouble, when I see the Governor.

Mr. Specter. To the best of your current recollection, did you notice that the President had been hit?

Mr. Greer. No, sir; I didn't know how badly he was injured or anything other than that. I didn't know.

Mr. Specter. Did you know at all, from the glance which you have described that he had been hit or injured in any way?

Mr. Greer. I knew he was injured in some way, but I didn't know how bad or what.

Mr. Specter. How did you know that?

Mr. Greer. If I remember now, I just don't remember how I knew, but I knew we were in trouble. I knew that he was injured, but I can't remember, recollect, just how I knew there were injuries in there. I didn't know who all was hurt, even.

Mr. Specter. Are you able to recollect whether you saw the President after the shots as you were proceeding toward Parkland Hospital?

Mr. Greer. No; I don't remember ever seeing him any more until I got to the hospital, and he was lying across the seat, you know, and that is the first I had seen of him.

Mr. Specter. Your best recollection is, then, that you had the impression he was injured but you couldn't ascertain the source of that information?

Mr. Greer. Right. I couldn't ascertain the source.

Representative Ford. Did you hear the President say anything after the first shot?

132 Mr. Greer. No, sir; I never heard him say anything; never at any time did I ever hear him say anything.

Representative Boggs. Did Mrs. Kennedy say anything to you while you were driving to the hospital?

Mr. Greer. No, sir; she didn't.

Representative Boggs. Did Mrs. Connally say anything to you?

Mr. Greer. No. Mrs. Connally didn't say anything, either. There is quite a little distance between the front and the back seat of that car. As you know, it is 21 feet long, and you are quite a little bit away, and there was the sirens were all going. The following car had a siren wide—the big one on the fender was wide open. There wasn't much chance for me to hear anything, and I was really occupied with getting there just as fast as I could and not seeing that anything happened, avoid an accident or anything like that.

Mr. Specter. Did you have a siren on your car?

Mr. Greer. I didn't have mine going. There is a siren on that car, but I didn't even reach down to work it.

Representative Boggs. There was another agent in the car with you?

Mr. Greer. Mr. Kellerman; yes, sir.

Representative Boggs. And after the first shot, did he say to speed up or what?

Mr. Greer. I believe it was at the second that he and I both simultaneously—he said, "Get out of here fast," and I speeded up as fast as I could then and as fast as the car would go.

The Chairman. If there are no further questions, thank you very much, Mr. Greer.

Mr. Greer. Thank you, sir.

The Chairman. You may be excused.

Mr. Greer. Thank you, sir.

The Chairman. We will take a short recess.

(Short recess.)

The Chairman. Mr. Hill, come right in, sir. Would you raise your right hand, please, and be sworn? Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give before this Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. Hill. I do.

The Chairman. Would you be seated, please, Mr. Hill?

Mr. Hill. Thank you, sir.

The Chairman. Mr. Specter.

TESTIMONY OF CLINTON J. HILL, SPECIAL AGENT, SECRET SERVICE

Mr. Specter. Mr. Hill, would you state your full name for the record, please?

Mr. Hill. Clinton J. Hill.

Mr. Specter. How old are you, sir?

Mr. Hill. Thirty-two.

Mr. Specter. What is your educational background?

Mr. Hill. I went to secondary educational high school in Washburn, N. Dak., and then went on to Concordia College, Moorehead, Minn. I was a history and education major, with a minor in physical education.

Mr. Specter. What year were you graduated?

Mr. Hill. 1954.

Mr. Specter. What have you done since the time of graduation from college, Mr. Hill?

Mr. Hill. I went into the Army in 1954; remained in the Army until 1957. Then I couldn't determine what I wanted to do, whether to go to law school or not, and I took a couple of odd jobs. I worked for a finance company at one time. Then I went to work for the Chicago, Burlington & Quincy Railroad as a special agent in the spring of 1958, and entered the Secret Service in September 1958.

Mr. Specter. You have been with the Secret Service since September 1958 to the present time?

Mr. Hill. Yes; I have.

133 Mr. Specter. Will you outline for the Commission your duties with the Secret Service during your tenure there?

Mr. Hill. I entered the Secret Service in Denver, and during that period I did both investigative and protection work. I was assigned to Mrs. Doud, the mother-in-law of President Eisenhower. I attended the Treasury Law Enforcement School during my first year, and was sent to the White House for a 30-day temporary assignment at the White House in June 1959. In November of 1959, November 1, I was transferred to the White House on a permanent basis as a special agent assigned to the White House detail. I have been at the White House since that time.

Mr. Specter. Now, were you assigned to duties on the trip of President Kennedy to Texas in November 1963?

Mr. Hill. Yes, sir; I was.

Mr. Specter. Did you have any special duty assigned to you at that time?

Mr. Hill. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. In connection with the trip?

Mr. Hill. I was responsible for the protection of Mrs. Kennedy.

Mr. Specter. And, in a general way, what does that sort of an assignment involve?

Mr. Hill. I tried to remain as close to her at all times as possible, and in this particular trip that meant being with the President because all of their doings on this trip were together rather than separate. I would go over her schedule to make sure she knows what she is expected to do; discuss it with her; remain in her general area all the time; protect her from any danger.

Mr. Specter. Would you tell us, in a general way, what were the activities of the President and Mrs. Kennedy on the morning of Friday, November 22, before they arrived in Dallas?

Mr. Hill. I went to the fifth floor, I believe it was, where the President and Mrs. Kennedy were staying in the Texas Hotel in Fort Worth at 8:15 in the morning. President Kennedy was to go downstairs and across the street to make a speech to a gathering in a parking lot. I remained on the floor during the period the President was gone.

It was raining outside, I recall. About 9:25 I received word from Special Agent Duncan that the President requested Mrs. Kennedy to come to the mezzanine, where a breakfast was being held in his honor, and where he was about to speak. I went in and advised Mrs. Kennedy of this, and took her down to where the President was speaking; remained with her adjacent to the head table in this particular area during the speech; and accompanied she and the President back up to the, I believe it was, the fifth floor of the hotel, their residential area; remained on that floor until we left, went downstairs, got into the motorcade, and departed the hotel for the airport to leave Fort Worth for Dallas.

We were airborne approximately 11:20, I believe, in Air Force 1. I was in the aft compartment, which is part of the residential compartment, and we arrived in Dallas at 11:40.

Mr. Specter. Would you describe, in a general way, what the President and Mrs. Kennedy did upon arrival in Dallas?

Mr. Hill. They debarked the rear ramp of the aircraft first, followed by Governor and Mrs. Connally, various Congressmen and Senators. And Special Agent in Charge Kellerman and myself went down the ramp. There was a small reception committee at the foot of the ramp, and somebody gave Mrs. Kennedy some red roses, I recall. I walked immediately to the followup car and placed my topcoat, which is a raincoat, and small envelope containing some information concerning the Dallas stop in the followup car, returning to where the President and Mrs. Kennedy were at that time greeting a crippled lady in a wheelchair.

Mr. Specter. What do you estimate the size of the crowd to have been at Dallas that morning?

Mr. Hill. At the airport?

Mr. Specter. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hill. It is rather difficult to say. They were behind a chain-link fence, not on the airport ramp itself, and they were jammed up against the fence134 holding placards, and many young people in the crowd. I would say there were probably 2,000 people there.

Mr. Specter. At approximately what time did the motorcade depart from Love Field to Dallas?

Mr. Hill. Approximately 11:55.

Mr. Specter. Do you know approximately how many automobiles there were in the motorcade?

Mr. Hill. No, sir; I do not.

Mr. Specter. In which car in the motorcade were you positioned?

Mr. Hill. I was working the followup car, which is the car immediately behind the Presidential car.

Mr. Specter. And how many cars are there ahead of the followup car, then, in the entire motorcade?

Mr. Hill. There was a lead car ahead of the President's car, the President's car, then this particular followup car.

Mr. Specter. Do you know whether there was any car in advance of the car termed the lead car?

Mr. Hill. There could have been a pilot car, but I am not sure.

Mr. Specter. Now, approximately how far in front of the President's car did the lead car stay during the course of the motorcade?

Mr. Hill. I would say a half block, maybe.

Mr. Specter. And how far was the President's car in front of the President's followup car during the course of the motorcade?

Mr. Hill. Approximately 5 feet.

Mr. Specter. Is there some well-established practice as to the spacing between the President's car and the President's followup car?

Mr. Hill. It would depend upon speed. We attempt to stay as close to the President's car as practical. At high rates of speed it is rather difficult to stay close because of the danger involved. Slow speeds, the followup car stays as close as possible so that the agents on the followup car can get to the Presidential car as quickly as possible.

Mr. Specter. What was the first car to the rear of the President's followup car?

Mr. Hill. The Vice-Presidential automobile.

Mr. Specter. What car was immediately behind the Vice President's automobile?

Mr. Hill. The Vice-Presidential followup car.

Mr. Specter. Do you know what cars in the Dallas motorcade followed the Vice President's followup car?

Mr. Hill. Well, I couldn't say which car any individual rode in after that particular automobile, but I could say they were occupied by members of the staff, both President Kennedy's and Vice President Johnson's; Congressmen and Senators who were on this particular trip; newspaper personnel who were on this trip.

Mr. Specter. Would you identify the occupants of the President's followup car and indicate where each was in the automobile.

Mr. Hill. The car itself was driven by Special Agent Sam Kinney, and Assistant to the Special Agent in Charge Emory Roberts was riding in the right front seat. I was assigned to work the left running board of the automobile, the forward portion of that running board. McIntyre was assigned to work the rear portion of the left running board. Special Agent John Ready was assigned the forward portion of the right running board; Special Agent Paul Landis was assigned the rear portion of the right running board. There were two jump seats, and they were occupied by two Presidential aides, Mr. O'Donnell and Mr. Powers. Mr. Powers was sitting on the right-hand side; Mr. O'Donnell on the left. The rear seat was occupied, left rear by Special Agent Hickey, right rear, Special Agent Bennett.

Mr. Specter. How were the agents armed at that time?

Mr. Hill. All the agents were armed with their hand weapons.

Mr. Specter. And is there any weapon in the automobile in addition to the hand weapons?

135 Mr. Hill. Yes. There is an AR-15, which is an automatic rifle, and a shotgun.

Mr. Specter. And where is the AR-15 kept?

Mr. Hill. Between the two agents in the rear seat.

Mr. Specter. How about the shotgun; where is that kept?

Mr. Hill. In a compartment immediately in front of the jump seats.

Mr. Specter. Is the President's followup car a specially constructed automobile?

Mr. Hill. Yes, sir; it is.

Mr. Specter. And what is the make and model and general description of that vehicle?

Mr. Hill. It is a 1955 Cadillac, nine-passenger touring sedan. It is a convertible type.

Mr. Specter. Was that automobile flown in specially from Washington for the occasion?

Mr. Hill. Yes; it was, sir.

Mr. Specter. Do you know how that automobile was transported to Dallas, Tex.?

Mr. Hill. Generally, it is flown in a C-130 by the Air Force. I am not sure how on this particular occasion.

Mr. Specter. Will you describe, in a general way, the composition of the crowds en route from Love Field down to the center of Dallas, please?

Mr. Hill. Well, when we left Love Field, we went away from the crowd to get to the exit point at Love Field, and there were no crowds at all, and then we, departing Love Field, found the crowds were sporadic. There were people here and there. Some places they had built up and other places they were thinned out. The speed of the motorcade was adjusted accordingly. Whenever there were large groups of people, the motorcade slowed down to give the people an opportunity to view the President. When there were not many people along the side of the street, we speeded up. We didn't really hit the crowds until we hit Main Street.

Mr. Specter. What is your best estimate of the maximum speed of the automobile from the time you left Love Field until the time you arrived at downtown Dallas?

Mr. Hill. I would say we never ran any faster than 25 to 30 miles per hour.

Mr. Specter. What is your best estimate of the minimum speed during this same interval?

Mr. Hill. Twelve to fifteen miles per hour. We did stop.

Mr. Specter. On what occasion did you stop?

Mr. Hill. Between Love Field and Main Street, downtown Dallas, on the right-hand side of the street there were a group of people with a long banner which said, "Please, Mr. President, stop and shake our hands." And the President requested the motorcade to stop, and he beckoned to the people and asked them to come and shake his hand, which they did.

Mr. Specter. Did the President disembark from his automobile at that time?

Mr. Hill. No; he remained in his seat.

Mr. Specter. At that time what action, if any, did you take?

Mr. Hill. I jumped from the followup car and ran up to the left rear portion of the automobile with my back toward Mrs. Kennedy viewing those persons on the left-hand side of the street.

Mr. Specter. What action was taken by any other Secret Service agent which you observed at that time?

Mr. Hill. Special Agent Ready, who was working the forward portion of the right running board, did the same thing, only on the President's side, placed his back toward the car, and viewed the people facing the President. Assistant in Charge Kellerman opened the door of the President's car and stepped out on the street.

Mr. Specter. What action was taken by Special Agent McIntyre, if you know?

Mr. Hill. I do not know.

136 Mr. Specter. How about Special Agent Landis?

Mr. Hill. I do not know.

Mr. Specter. What is your normal procedure for action in the event the President's car is stopped, as it did in that event?

Mr. Hill. Special Agent McIntyre would normally jump off the car and run to the forward portion of the left-hand side of the car; Special Agent Landis would move to the right-hand forward portion of the automobile.

Mr. Specter. Did anything else which was unusual occur en route from Love Field to the downtown area of Dallas?

Mr. Hill. Before we hit Main Street?

Mr. Specter. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hill. Not that I recall.

Mr. Specter. Did you have any occasion to leave the President's followup car at any time?

Mr. Hill. When we finally did reach Main Street, the crowds had built up to a point where they were surging into the street. We had motorcycles running adjacent to both the Presidential automobile and the followup car, as well as in front of the Presidential automobile, and because of the crowds in the street, the President's driver, Special Agent Greer, was running the car more to the left-hand side of the street more than he was to the right to keep the President as far away from the crowd as possible, and because of this the motorcycles on the left-hand side could not get past the crowd and alongside the car, and they were forced to drop back. I jumped from the followup car, ran up and got on top of the rear portion of the Presidential automobile to be close to Mrs. Kennedy in the event that someone attempted to grab her from the crowd or throw something in the car.

Mr. Specter. When you say the rear portion of the automobile, can you, by referring to Commission Exhibit No. 345, heretofore identified as the President's automobile, specify by penciled "X" where you stood?

Mr. Hill. Yes, sir [indicating].

Mr. Specter. Will you describe for the record just what area it is back there on which you stood?

Mr. Hill. That is a step built into the rear bumper of the automobile, and on top of the rear trunk there is a handguard which you grab for and hang onto when you are standing up.

Mr. Specter. Are identical objects of those descriptions existing on each side of the President's car?

Mr. Hill. Yes, sir; they do.

Mr. Specter. Did you have any other occasion en route from Love Field to downtown Dallas to leave the followup car and mount that portion of the President's car?

Mr. Hill. I did the same thing approximately four times.

Mr. Specter. What are the standard regulations and practices, if any, governing such an action on your part?

Mr. Hill. It is left to the agent's discretion more or less to move to that particular position when he feels that there is a danger to the President; to place himself as close to the President or the First Lady as my case was, as possible, which I did.

Mr. Specter. Are those practices specified in any written documents of the Secret Service?

Mr. Hill. No; they are not.

Mr. Specter. Now, had there been any instruction or comment about your performance of that type of a duty with respect to anything that President Kennedy himself had said in the period immediately preceding the trip to Texas?

Mr. Hill. Yes, sir; there was. The preceding Monday, the President was on a trip in Tampa, Fla., and he requested that the agents not ride on either of those two steps.

Mr. Specter. And to whom did the President make that request?

Mr. Hill. Assistant Special Agent in Charge Boring.

137 Mr. Specter. Was Assistant Special Agent in Charge Boring the individual in charge of that trip to Florida?

Mr. Hill. He was riding in the Presidential automobile on that trip in Florida, and I presume that he was. I was not along.

Mr. Specter. Well, on that occasion would he have been in a position comparable to that occupied by Special Agent Kellerman on this trip to Texas?

Mr. Hill. Yes, sir; the same position.

Mr. Specter. And Special Agent Boring informed you of that instruction by President Kennedy?

Mr. Hill. Yes, sir; he did.

Mr. Specter. Did he make it a point to inform other special agents of that same instruction?

Mr. Hill. I believe that he did, sir.

Mr. Specter. And, as a result of what President Kennedy said to him, did he instruct you to observe that Presidential admonition?

Mr. Hill. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. How, if at all, did that instruction of President Kennedy affect your action and—your action in safeguarding him on this trip to Dallas?

Mr. Hill. We did not ride on the rear portions of the automobile. I did on those four occasions because the motorcycles had to drop back and there was no protection on the left-hand side of the car.

Mr. Specter. When the President's automobile was proceeding in downtown Dallas, what was the ordinary speed of the automobile, based on your best estimate?

Mr. Hill. We were running approximately 12 to 15 miles per hour, I would say.

Mr. Specter. I show you a document which we have marked as Commission Exhibit No. 354, which is an aerial photograph identical with the photograph already marked as Commission Exhibit No. 347.

(The photograph referred to was marked Exhibit No. 354 for identification.)

Mr. Specter. I ask you if, referring only to Exhibit 354, you are able to identify what that scene is.

Mr. Hill. Yes, sir; I am.

Mr. Specter. Are you able to indicate the route which the President's motorcade followed through that area?

Mr. Hill. Yes, sir; I am.

Mr. Specter. And what does that scene depict—what city is it?

Mr. Hill. That is Dallas, Tex. It shows Main Street, Houston Street, and Elm Street.

Mr. Specter. Will you write on the picture itself where Main Street is? Would you now write, as best you can, which street is Houston Street?

Mr. Hill. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. And would you now write which street is Elm?

Mr. Hill. Yes, sir.

(At this point, Representative Ford entered the hearing room.)

Mr. Specter. Now, would you indicate, if you know, which is a generally northerly direction on that picture?

Mr. Hill. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. All right. What was the condition of the crowd as the motorcade made a right-hand turn off of Main Street onto Houston?

Mr. Hill. The crowd was very large on Main Street, and it was thinning down considerably when we reached the end of it, and turned right on Houston Street. Noticeably on my side of the car, which was the left-hand side of the street.

Mr. Specter. And what is your best estimate as to the speed of the President's car at the time it made the right-hand turn onto Houston Street?

Mr. Hill. In the curve?

Mr. Specter. The speed—in the curve itself; yes.

Mr. Hill. We were running generally 12 to 15 miles per hour. I would say that in the curve we perhaps slowed to maybe 10 miles per hour.

Mr. Specter. And how far behind the President's car was the Presidential followup car as the turn was made onto Houston Street?

Mr. Hill. Four to five feet, at the most.

138 Mr. Specter. I show you a photograph of a building which has already been marked as Commission Exhibit No. 348, and ask you if at this time you can identify what that building is.

Mr. Hill. I believe I can, sir; yes.

Mr. Specter. And what building is it?

Mr. Hill. It is the Texas School Book Depository.

Mr. Specter. Now, does that building appear on the Commission Exhibit No. 354?

Mr. Hill. Yes, sir; it does.

Mr. Specter. Did you have any occasion to notice the Texas School Book Depository Building as you proceeded in a generally northerly direction on Houston Street?

Mr. Hill. Yes, sir. It was immediately in front of us and to our left.

Mr. Specter. Did you notice anything unusual about it?

Mr. Hill. Nothing more unusual than any other building along the way.

Mr. Specter. What is your general practice, if any, in observing such buildings along the route of a Presidential motorcade?

Mr. Hill. We scan the buildings and look specifically for open windows, for people hanging out, and there had been, on almost every building along the way, people hanging out, windows open.

Mr. Specter. And did you observe, as you recollect at this moment, any open windows in the Texas School Depository Building?

Mr. Hill. Yes, sir; there were.

Mr. Specter. Are you able to recollect specifically which windows were open at this time?

Mr. Hill. No, sir; I cannot.

Mr. Specter. What was the condition of the crowd along the streets, if any, along Elm Street, in front of the Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mr. Hill. On the left-hand side of the street, which is the side I was on, the crowd was very thin. And it was a general park area. There were people scattered throughout the entire park.

Mr. Specter. Now, what is your best estimate of the speed of the President's automobile as it turned left off of Houston onto Elm Street?

Mr. Hill. We were running still 12 to 15 miles per hour, but in the curve I believe we slowed down maybe to 10, maybe to 9.

Mr. Specter. How far back of the President's automobile was the Presidential followup car when the President's followup car had just straightened out on Elm Street?

Mr. Hill. Approximately 5 feet.

Mr. Specter. Now, as the motorcade proceeded at that point, tell us what happened.

Mr. Hill. Well, as we came out of the curve, and began to straighten up, I was viewing the area which looked to be a park. There were people scattered throughout the entire park. And I heard a noise from my right rear, which to me seemed to be a firecracker. I immediately looked to my right, and, in so doing, my eyes had to cross the Presidential limousine and I saw President Kennedy grab at himself and lurch forward and to the left.

Mr. Specter. Why don't you just proceed, in narrative form, to tell us?

Representative Boggs. This was the first shot?

Mr. Hill. This is the first sound that I heard; yes, sir. I jumped from the car, realizing that something was wrong, ran to the Presidential limousine. Just about as I reached it, there was another sound, which was different than the first sound. I think I described it in my statement as though someone was shooting a revolver into a hard object—it seemed to have some type of an echo. I put my right foot, I believe it was, on the left rear step of the automobile, and I had a hold of the handgrip with my hand, when the car lurched forward. I lost my footing and I had to run about three or four more steps before I could get back up in the car.

Between the time I originally grabbed the handhold and until I was up on the car, Mrs. Kennedy—the second noise that I heard had removed a portion of the President's head, and he had slumped noticeably to his left. Mrs. Kennedy had jumped up from the seat and was, it appeared to me, reaching for something139 coming off the right rear bumper of the car, the right rear tail, when she noticed that I was trying to climb on the car. She turned toward me and I grabbed her and put her back in the back seat, crawled up on top of the back seat and lay there.

Mr. Specter. Now, referring to Commission Exhibit No. 354, would you mark an "X", as best you can, at the spot where the President's automobile was at the time the first shot occurred?

Mr. Hill. Approximately there.

Mr. Specter. And would you mark a "Y" at the approximate position where the President's car was at the second shot you have described? What is your best estimate of the speed of the President's car at the precise time of the first shot, Mr. Hill?

Mr. Hill. We were running between 12 to 15 miles per hour, but no faster than 15 miles per hour.

Mr. Specter. How many shots have you described that you heard?

Mr. Hill. Two.

Mr. Specter. Did you hear any more than two shots?

Mr. Hill. No, sir.

Mr. Specter. And what is your best estimate of the speed of the President's automobile at the time of the second shot?

Mr. Hill. Approximately the same speed as that of the first—although at the time that I jumped on the car, the car had surged forward. The President at that time had been shot in the head.

Mr. Specter. When, in relationship to the second shot, did the car accelerate—that is, the President's car?

Mr. Hill. Almost simultaneously.

Mr. Specter. You testified just a moment ago that the President grabbed at himself immediately after the first noise which you described as sounding like a firecracker.

Mr. Hill. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. Would you tell us with more particularity in what way he grabbed at himself?

Mr. Hill. He grabbed in this general area.

Mr. Specter. You are indicating that your right hand is coming up to your—to the throat?

Mr. Hill. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. And the left hand crosses right under the right hand.

Mr. Hill. To the chest area.

Mr. Specter. To the chest area. Was there any movement of the President's head or shoulders immediately after the first shot, that you recollect?

Mr. Hill. Yes, sir. Immediately when I saw him, he was like this, and going left and forward.

Mr. Specter. Indicating a little fall to the left front.

Mr. Hill. Yes, sir.

Representative Boggs. This was after a head wound?

Mr. Hill. No, sir.

Representative Boggs. Before the head wound?

Mr. Hill. Yes, sir; this was the first shot.

Mr. Specter. Now, what is your best estimate on the timespan between the first firecracker-type noise you heard and the second shot which you have described?

Mr. Hill. Approximately 5 seconds.

Mr. Specter. Now, did the impact on the President's head occur simultaneously, before, or after the second noise which you have described?

Mr. Hill. Almost simultaneously.

Representative Ford. Did you see the President put his hands to his throat and chest while you were still on the followup car, or after you had left it?

Mr. Hill. As I was leaving. And that is one of the reasons I jumped, because I saw him grab himself and pitch forward and to the left. I knew something was wrong.

Representative Ford. It was 5 seconds from the firecracker noise that you think you got to the automobile?

140 Mr. Hill. Until I reached the handhold, had placed my foot on the left rear step.

Mr. Specter. When, in relationship to the second shot, did Mrs. Kennedy move out of the rear seat?

Mr. Hill. Just after it.

Mr. Specter. You say that it appeared that she was reaching as if something was coming over to the rear portion of the car, back in the area where you were coming to?

Mr. Hill. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. Was there anything back there that you observed, that she might have been reaching for?

Mr. Hill. I thought I saw something come off the back, too, but I cannot say that there was. I do know that the next day we found the portion of the President's head.

Mr. Specter. Where did you find that portion of the President's head?

Mr. Hill. It was found in the street. It was turned in, I believe, by a medical student or somebody in Dallas.

Mr. Specter. Did you have any difficulty maintaining your balance on the back of the car after you had come up on the top of it?

Mr. Hill. Not until we turned off to enter the Parkland Hospital.

Mr. Specter. Now, what action did you take specifically with respect to placing Mrs. Kennedy back in the rear seat?

Mr. Hill. I simply just pushed and she moved—somewhat voluntarily—right back into the same seat she was in. The President—when she had attempted to get out onto the trunk of the car, his body apparently did not move too much, because when she got back into the car he was at that time, when I got on top of the car, face up in her lap.

Mr. Specter. And that was after she was back in the rear seat?

Mr. Hill. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. And where were the President's legs at that time?

Mr. Hill. Inside the car.

Mr. Specter. Now, what, if anything, did you observe as to the condition of Governor Connally at that time?

Mr. Hill. After going under this underpass, I looked forward to the jump seats, where Mrs. Connally and Governor Connally were sitting. Mrs. Connally had been leaning over her husband. And I had no idea that he had been shot. And when she leaned back at one time, I noticed that his coat was unbuttoned, and that the lower portion of his abdomen was completely covered with blood.

Mr. Specter. When was it that you first observed that?

Mr. Hill. Just after going under the underpass.

Mr. Specter. Were you able to observe anything which was occurring on the overpass as the President's motorcade moved toward the overpass?

Mr. Hill. From the time I got on the back of the Presidential limousine, I didn't really pay any attention to what was going on outside the automobile.

Mr. Specter. Had you noticed the overpass prior to the time you got on the Presidential automobile?

Mr. Hill. Yes; I had scanned it.

Mr. Specter. And do you recollect what, if anything, you observed on the overpass at that time?

Mr. Hill. There were some people there, but I also noticed there was a policeman there.

Mr. Specter. Approximately how many people would you say were there?

Mr. Hill. Very few, I would say—maybe five, six.

Mr. Specter. And how were you able to identify that there was a policeman there?

Mr. Hill. He was wearing the uniform—presumably a policeman.

Mr. Specter. What color uniform was it?

Mr. Hill. I think it was blue of some shade.

Mr. Specter. Did you identify it at that time as being of the identical color which other Dallas policemen were wearing whom you had observed in the area?

141 Mr. Hill. That's correct, sir.

Mr. Specter. Can you characterize the type of acceleration which the car made after it started to speed forward—that is, the Presidential car.

Mr. Hill. Well, the initial surge was quite violent, because it almost jerked me off the left rear step board. Then after that it was apparently gradual, because I did not notice it any more.

Mr. Specter. What is your best estimate of the distance from the time of the shooting to Parkland Hospital?

Mr. Hill. In time or——

Mr. Specter. Time and distance.

Mr. Hill. Distance, I have no idea.

Mr. Specter. How about time?

Mr. Hill. I would say roughly 4 minutes.

Mr. Specter. Did Mrs. Kennedy say anything as you were proceeding from the time of the shooting to Parkland Hospital?

Mr. Hill. At the time of the shooting, when I got into the rear of the car, she said, "My God, they have shot his head off." Between there and the hospital she just said, "Jack, Jack, what have they done to you," and sobbed.

Mr. Specter. Was there any conversation by anybody else in the President's automobile from the time of the shooting to the arrival at Parkland Hospital?

Mr. Hill. I heard Special Agent Kellerman say on the radio, "To the nearest hospital, quick."

Mr. Specter. Any other comment?

Mr. Hill. He said, "We have been hit."

Mr. Specter. Now, was there any other comment you heard Special Agent Kellerman make?

Mr. Hill. Not that I recall.

Mr. Specter. Did Special Agent Greer say anything?

Mr. Hill. No, sir.

Mr. Specter. Mrs. Connally say anything?

Mr. Hill. No, sir.

Representative Boggs. Was Governor Connally conscious?

Mr. Hill. Yes, sir; he was.

Mr. Specter. Did Governor Connally say anything?

Mr. Hill. No, sir.

Mr. Specter. Did President Kennedy say anything?

Mr. Hill. No, sir.

Mr. Specter. What is your best estimate on the speed at which the President's car traveled from the point of the shooting to Parkland Hospital?

Mr. Hill. It is a little bit hard for me to judge, since I was lying across the rear portion of the automobile. I had no trouble staying in that particular position—until we approached the hospital, I recall, I believe it was a left-hand turn and I started slipping off to the right-hand portion of the car. So I would say that we went 60, maybe 65 at the most.

Mr. Specter. Were you able to secure a handhold or a leg-hold or any sort of a hold on the automobile as you moved forward?

Mr. Hill. Yes, sir. I had my legs—I had my body above the rear seat, and my legs hooked down into the rear seat, one foot outside the car.

Mr. Specter. What is your best estimate of the time of the assassination itself?

Mr. Hill. Approximately 12:30.

Mr. Specter. I am not sure whether I asked you about this—about how long did it take you to get from the shooting to the hospital?

Mr. Hill. Approximately 4 minutes.

Mr. Specter. What did you observe as to President Kennedy's condition on arrival at the hospital?

Mr. Hill. The right rear portion of his head was missing. It was lying in the rear seat of the car. His brain was exposed. There was blood and bits of brain all over the entire rear portion of the car. Mrs. Kennedy was completely covered with blood. There was so much blood you could not tell if there had been any other wound or not, except for the one large gaping wound in the right rear portion of the head.

142 Mr. Specter. Did you have any opportunity to observe the front part of his body, to see whether there was any tear or rip in the clothing on the front?

Mr. Hill. I saw him lying there in the back of the car, when I was immediately above him. I cannot recall noticing anything that was ripped in the forward portion of his body.

Mr. Specter. What action, if any, did you take to shield the President's body?

Mr. Hill. I kept myself above the President and Mrs. Kennedy on the trip to Parkland.

Mr. Specter. Did you do anything with your coat upon arrival at Parkland Hospital to shield the President?

Mr. Hill. Yes, sir. I removed it and covered the President's head and upper chest.

Mr. Specter. What, if anything, did you observe as to Governor Connally's condition on arrival at Parkland?

Mr. Hill. He was conscious. There was a large amount of blood in the lower abdominal area. He was helped from the automobile to the stretcher, and I do not recall him saying anything, but I know that he was conscious. He was wheeled immediately into, I think, emergency room No. 2.

Mr. Specter. And who was removed first from the automobile?

Mr. Hill. Governor Connally.

Mr. Specter. How long after the President's car arrived at Parkland Hospital did medical personnel come to the scene to remove the victims?

Mr. Hill. Seconds. They were there when we were there almost—almost simultaneously with the arrival.

Mr. Specter. Do you know where President Kennedy was taken in the hospital?

Mr. Hill. Yes, sir. I accompanied he, and Mrs. Kennedy to the emergency room.

Mr. Specter. Now, tell us what you did at the hospital from the time of arrival on, please.

Mr. Hill. I went into the emergency room with the President, but it was so small, and there were so many people in there that I decided I had better leave and let the doctors take care of the situation. So I walked outside; asked for the nearest telephone; walked to the nearest telephone. About that time Special Agent in Charge Kellerman came outside and said, "Get the White House."

I asked Special Agent Lawson for the local number in Dallas of the White House switchboard, which he gave to me. I called the switchboard in Dallas; asked for the line to be open to Washington, and remain open continuously. And then I asked for Special Agent in Charge Behn's office. Mr. Kellerman came out of the emergency room about that time, took the telephone and called Special Agent in Charge Behn that we had had a double tragedy; that both Governor Connally and President Kennedy had been shot. And that was about as much as he said. I then took the telephone and shortly thereafter Mr. Kellerman came out of the emergency room and said, "Clint, tell Jerry this is unofficial and not for release, but the man is dead." Which I did. During the two calls, I talked to the Attorney General, who attempted to reach me, and told him that his brother had been seriously wounded; that we would keep him advised as to his condition.

Mr. Specter. Where was Mrs. Kennedy all this time, if you know?

Mr. Hill. Immediately upon arrival, she went into the emergency room. And a few minutes afterward, she was convinced to wait outside, which she did, remained there the rest of the period of time that we were there.

Mr. Specter. And was there any pronouncement that the President had died?

Mr. Hill. Not that I know of. Apparently there was. I was requested by Mr. O'Donnell, one of the Presidential assistants, to obtain a casket, because they wanted to return to Washington immediately. I contacted the administrator of the hospital and asked him to take me where I could telephone the nearest mortuary, which I did, requested that their best available casket be brought to the emergency entrance in my name immediately.

Mr. Specter. And what action was taken as a result of that request by you?

Mr. Hill. The casket did arrive from the O'Neal Mortuary, Inc., in their own hearse, which we then wheeled into the emergency room. I left the emergency143 room and asked that two of our agents, Special Agent Sulliman and Assistant Special Agent in Charge Stout clear all the corridors, and I checked the closest and most immediate route to the ambulance. We took the body from the hospital and departed the Parkland Hospital about 2:04 p.m. The ambulance was driven by Special Agent Berger. Special Agent in Charge Kellerman and Assistant Special Agent In Charge Stout were riding in the front seat; Mrs. Kennedy, Dr. Burkley, the President's body, and myself rode in the rear portion of the ambulance.

Mr. Specter. Approximately how long did it take you to reach the airplane at Love Field?

Mr. Hill. We arrived at Love Field at 2:14.

Mr. Specter. And were you present during the swearing-in ceremonies of President Johnson?

Mr. Hill. I was aboard the aircraft; yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. Did you witness those ceremonies?

Mr. Hill. Well, the Presidential compartment was so small that not all persons on the aircraft could get in. I was in the forward portion of the aircraft, right adjacent to the area that the President was sworn in.

Mr. Specter. Do you know the time of the swearing in?

Mr. Hill. 2:38.

Mr. Specter. And what time did the Presidential aircraft depart?

Mr. Hill. 2:47.

Mr. Specter. Do you know what time it arrived in the Washington area?

Mr. Hill. 5:59, I believe, sir.

Mr. Specter. And where did it land?

Mr. Hill. We landed at Andrews Air Force Base.

Mr. Specter. And what action, if any, in connection with this matter did you take following landing?

Mr. Hill. I assisted Mrs. Kennedy and the Attorney General, who had joined her at that time, into the ambulance bearing the President's body, and I entered the automobile immediately behind the ambulance with Dr. John Walsh, Mrs. Kennedy's physician, and members of President Kennedy's staff.

Mr. Specter. And where did you go then?

Mr. Hill. Immediately to Bethesda Naval Hospital.

Mr. Specter. And did you stay with the President's family at that time?

Mr. Hill. When we arrived there, I went to the 17th floor with Mrs. Kennedy, and I remained with Mrs. Kennedy except for one time when I was requested to come to the morgue to view the President's body.

Mr. Specter. And did you view the President's body?

Mr. Hill. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. What action did you take following the time you viewed the President's body in the morgue?

Mr. Hill. After the viewing of the President's body?

Mr. Specter. Yes.

Mr. Hill. I returned to the 17th floor and remained with Mrs. Kennedy until we departed the hospital.

Representative Boggs. May I ask a question? At the hospital in Texas, you had seen—had you seen the whole body, or just the back of the President's head?

Mr. Hill. I had seen the whole body, but he was still cold when I saw him.

Representative Boggs. At the morgue in Bethesda he was not cold?

Mr. Hill. Yes, sir; the autopsy had been completed, and the Lawler Mortuary Co. was preparing the body for placement in a casket.

Representative Boggs. At this time did you see the whole body?

Mr. Hill. Yes, sir.

Representative Boggs. Did you see any other wound other than the head wound?

Mr. Hill. Yes, sir; I saw an opening in the back, about 6 inches below the neckline to the right-hand side of the spinal column.

Representative Boggs. Was there a frontal neck injury?

Mr. Hill. There was an area here that had been opened but——

Mr. Specter. You are indicating——

144 Mr. Hill. In the neck. It was my understanding at that time that this was done by a tracheotomy.

Mr. Specter. What else, if anything, of importance did you do between the time you viewed the body in the morgue until the termination of your duties on that date, Mr. Hill?

Mr. Hill. We handled all communications on the 17th floor, up to the 17th floor, for Mrs. Kennedy, members of her family, Cabinet members who were there at that time, and secured the 17th floor for all personnel. No one was permitted there that we did not know.

Mr. Specter. What time did you leave the 17th floor?

Mr. Hill. I believe, sir, it was 3:56, but I am not sure of the exact time.

Mr. Specter. Where did you go from there?

Mr. Hill. We went downstairs to the rear of the hospital, where the body was placed in a naval ambulance. I entered an automobile immediately behind the ambulance. Mrs. Kennedy and the Attorney General got into the rear of the ambulance with the body.

Mr. Specter. And from there, where did you go?

Mr. Hill. I accompanied them to the White House.

Mr. Specter. And did that mark the termination of your duties for that day?

Mr. Hill. No, sir. I remained on duty until approximately 6:30 in the morning; went home, changed clothes, and came back.

Mr. Specter. I believe you testified as to the impression you had as to the source of the first shot. To be sure that the record is complete, what was your reaction as to where the first shot came from, Mr. Hill?

Mr. Hill. Right rear.

Mr. Specter. And did you have a reaction or impression as to the source of point of origin of the second shot that you described?

Mr. Hill. It was right, but I cannot say for sure that it was rear, because when I mounted the car it was—it had a different sound, first of all, than the first sound that I heard. The second one had almost a double sound—as though you were standing against something metal and firing into it, and you hear both the sound of a gun going off and the sound of the cartridge hitting the metal place, which could have been caused probably by the hard surface of the head. But I am not sure that that is what caused it.

Mr. Specter. Are you describing this double sound with respect to what you heard on the occasion of the second shot?

Mr. Hill. The second shot that I heard; yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. Now, do you now or have you ever had the impression or reaction that there was a shot which originated from the front of the Presidential car?

Mr. Hill. No.

Mr. Specter. That is all I have.

The Chairman. Congressman Ford, any questions you would like to ask?

Representative Ford. No.

Representative Boggs. I have no questions, Mr. Chief Justice.

The Chairman. Mr. Craig.

Mr. Craig. No, thank you, Mr. Chief Justice.

The Chairman. If not, thank you very much. We appreciate your coming.

Mr. Hill. Thank you, Mr. Chief Justice.

The Chairman. Mr. Youngblood, will you raise your right hand? Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give before this Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. Youngblood. I do, sir.

The Chairman. Be seated, please.

Mr. Specter will conduct the examination.

TESTIMONY OF RUFUS WAYNE YOUNGBLOOD, SPECIAL AGENT, SECRET SERVICE

Mr. Specter. Will you state your full name for the record, please?

Mr. Youngblood. Rufus Wayne Youngblood.

Mr. Specter. How old are you, Mr. Youngblood?

145 Mr. Youngblood. Forty.

Mr. Specter. And by whom are you employed?

Mr. Youngblood. The U.S. Secret Service.

Mr. Specter. How long have you been so employed?

Mr. Youngblood. Since March of 1951.

Mrs. Specter. What is your educational background, sir?

Mr. Youngblood. I graduated from Georgia Institute of Technology. Bachelor of Industrial Engineering.

Mr. Specter. In what year?

Mr. Youngblood. 1949.

Mr. Specter. How were you occupied from termination of your college work until starting with the Secret Service?

Mr. Youngblood. I worked for Bradshaws, Inc., which was a refrigeration and air-conditioning concern in Waycross, Ga., and then worked for Alvin Lindstrom, who is a consulting mechanical engineer in Atlanta, Ga.

Mr. Specter. And would you outline in general terms what your duties have been with the Secret Service since the time you joined them?

Mr. Youngblood. I began in the Secret Service as a special agent, criminal investigator, and started off at the Atlanta field office, and stayed there about a year and a half. This time was spent in investigation of Government forged check cases, bond cases, counterfeiting, and similar investigations.

(At this point, Chief Justice Warren withdrew from the hearing room.)

Mr. Youngblood. I came to the Washington, DC. area, and worked in the Washington field office, a continuation of the same type of work I had done in Atlanta, plus the beginning of the protective work, working on temporary assignment at the White House detail. And then in 1953 I was assigned to the White House detail and worked there during the Eisenhower Administration about 6 years, and returned to the Atlanta field office for 3 more years in that area, during which time President Eisenhower would come to Augusta and Albany, and on two occasions on foreign trips I was called in.

And after 3 years in that field office, I returned to Washington again, assigned to the White House detail. The last part of the Eisenhower Administration and the beginning of the Kennedy Administration.

And in March of 1961, I was assigned to the Vice-Presidential detail. This, at that time, was part of the Washington field office. And I have been on an assignment with the Vice-Presidential detail since March 1961, except for a 1-month period when I returned to the White House detail. And then back to the Vice-Presidential detail.

But during this time, the Vice-Presidential detail changed from a field office assignment to a small independent office, and then, later, in October of 1962, when legislation was passed, changing the laws relative to protection of the Vice President, it became a larger detail. And I have been on the Vice-Presidential detail in the occurrence at Dallas, and returned to the White House detail when Mr. Johnson became the President.

And during this period of time, I have been a special agent, assistant special agent in charge, and was scheduled to be the special agent in charge of the Vice-Presidential detail. But due to what occurred in Dallas, I went to the White House as an assistant special agent in charge.

Any other particulars?

Mr. Specter. Well, what was your rank at the time of the Dallas trip, specifically on November 22, 1963?

Mr. Youngblood. I was the assistant special agent in charge of the Vice-Presidential detail.

(At this point, Chief Justice Warren entered the hearing room.)

Mr. Specter. And as such, were you responsible for the security of the Vice President on that trip?

Mr. Youngblood. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. Now, what is your current rank?

Mr. Youngblood. Assistant special agent in charge of the White House detail.

Mr. Specter. And, as such, do you hold one of the three positions of the assistant special agent in charge at the White House detail?

Mr. Youngblood. Yes, sir.

146 Mr. Specter. And is that a rank comparable or exactly the same as that now held by Special Agent Kellerman?

Mr. Youngblood. Yes, sir; he is senior to me, but it is a comparable rank.

Mr. Specter. Now, would you outline briefly and in general terms the activities of Vice President Johnson during the few days immediately before Friday, November 22, 1963?

Mr. Youngblood. On Tuesday of that week we made a trip from the ranch to Dallas, and we went by commercial plane—actually, from the ranch to Austin in the Vice President's plane, and from Austin to Dallas on a commercial plane. And while in Dallas, he addressed the Bottlers Convention. And we returned to the plane, flew back to Austin, then flew back to the ranch later that night, and remained at the ranch the next day and through Thursday.

And on Thursday we went to San Antonio, to join the group coming down from Washington.

Mr. Specter. Now, when did Vice President Johnson then address the Bottlers Association in Dallas?

Mr. Youngblood. That was on Tuesday.

Mr. Specter. November 19?

Mr. Youngblood. I would have to look at a calendar.

Mr. Specter. The preceding Tuesday——

Mr. Youngblood. The preceding Tuesday before the 22d; yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. Now, outline in a general way Vice President Johnson's activities on the morning of November 22d, before he arrived in Dallas, if you would, please.

Mr. Youngblood. Well, our day began at the hotel in Fort Worth, where we had stayed overnight. And that morning we went down to a mezzanine floor where we met with President Kennedy and a group of White House people. We went across from this hotel to a parking lot across the street, and they had a speaker stand there, and they addressed an assembled gathering.

Then they returned to the hotel, and there was a breakfast meeting in the hotel. They attended that. And, after that, we formed a motorcade and went to the field nearby in Fort Worth and boarded Air Force 2, and flew into Dallas.

Mr. Specter. Approximately what time did the Vice Presidential plane arrive in Dallas?

Mr. Youngblood. About 11:35.

Mr. Specter. Now, will you tell the Commission in general terms what Vice President Johnson did upon arrival at the Love Field?

Mr. Youngblood. All right, sir.

This plane, Air Force 2, had on board the Vice President and Mrs. Johnson and other officials. And we disembarked from the plane and were met by a welcoming committee composed of local dignitaries. And then we moved from that area where we disembarked over to the area of the ramp, which would be pushed out when Air Force 1, the President's plane, arrived. And when his plane did arrive, which was just a few minutes after ours, roughly 10 minutes, we went out to the foot of the ramp and Vice President Johnson and Mrs. Johnson headed the reception committee to greet the people who came off of Air Force 1.

Mr. Specter. Approximately how long did the activities in greeting the crowd and the general reception last at Love Field on that morning?

Mr. Youngblood. Do you mean from the time we arrived on Air Force 2 until we left?

Mr. Specter. Yes.

Mr. Youngblood. I think it was about 15 minutes.

Mr. Specter. Now, in what position in the motorcade was Vice President Johnson's automobile?

Mr. Youngblood. We were following the Presidential followup car, and the motorcade up to our point—there was a lead car, the President's car, the Presidential followup car, and then our car.

Mr. Specter. Was there, to your knowledge, in advance of the lead car a car known as the pilot car?

147 Mr. Youngblood. Yes, sir; in all probability. This is a normal police arrangement.

Mr. Specter. And would you identify the occupants of Vice President Johnson's car, indicating the positions in the car of each individual?

Mr. Youngblood. All right, sir. The driver of this car was Hurchel Jacks, and he is with the State Highway Patrol. And behind him was Senator Ralph Yarborough, from Texas. And in the middle back seat was Mrs. Johnson. And on the right-hand side of the back seat, behind me, was the Vice President. And I was in the front seat on the right-hand side.

Mr. Specter. And what kind of an automobile was it?

Mr. Youngblood. This was a Lincoln convertible, a four-door convertible.

Mr. Specter. Is this a specially constructed automobile, or was it obtained locally for use during this trip?

Mr. Youngblood. It was obtained locally for use during the trip.

Mr. Specter. And what car immediately followed the Vice President's automobile?

Mr. Youngblood. The Vice Presidential detail had a followup car which followed our car.

Mr. Specter. What kind of an automobile was that?

Mr. Youngblood. It was either a Lincoln or a Mercury, I don't know the exact make. It was a Ford product, and it was a four-door car. But it was closed.

Mr. Specter. Can you identify the occupants of that car, stating where each sat?

Mr. Youngblood. The front seat, the driver, I think his name is Rich. He is always on the Texas Highway Patrol. In the front seat in the middle is Cliff Carter. He is an assistant to the Vice President's staff.

(At this point, Representative Boggs withdrew from the hearing room.)

Mr. Youngblood. On the right-front side was Jerry Kivett. He is one of the agents on the Vice Presidential detail. And in the back seat, behind the driver, was Warren Taylor, and in the back seat on the other side was my agent, Lem Johns.

Mr. Specter. Do you know how many cars there were in the balance of the motorcade?

Mr. Youngblood. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. Specter. What was the maximum speed at which the motorcade proceeded from Love Field down to the downtown area of Dallas?

Mr. Youngblood. I doubt if the motorcade ever exceeded 20 miles or 25 miles an hour, and most of the time it was going slower than that.

Mr. Specter. What was the minimum speed, would you estimate, during that time?

Mr. Youngblood. We actually came to stops during this time.

Mr. Specter. How many stops?

Mr. Youngblood. More than one. Two or more.

Mr. Specter. What occurred during the course of those stops, or what prompted them?

Mr. Youngblood. Well, these stops were made by the Presidential car to greet well-wishers, students on one particular occasion, and other groups of well-wishers, that were assembled along the streets.

Mr. Specter. Did Vice President Johnson greet anyone at those stops?

Mr. Youngblood. He did greet them, but he didn't leave the car, I think. He remained in the car. I got out of the car and stood by the side of it on more than one occasion. He waved at people, and some did run over, and I think he did touch some. But he didn't leave the car.

Mr. Specter. How far behind the President's followup car did the Vice President's followup car drive?

Mr. Youngblood. The Vice President's followup car?

Mr. Specter. Pardon me—the Vice President's automobile.

Mr. Youngblood. We usually stayed on motorcades like this about two or three car lengths behind.

Mr. Specter. And did your distance on this occasion conform to your customary practice of being that distance behind?

148 Mr. Youngblood. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. And what is the reason, if any, for staying that distance behind the President's followup car?

Mr. Youngblood. Well, mainly so the crowd can see the Vice President, and he can see them. If you are too close behind the Presidential group, the crowd will be watching the President and will watch him as he goes by, and then they will miss the next man. So it gives the people a chance to recover and look back and see him, and they to see each other.

Mr. Specter. I show you a photograph which has been marked as Commission Exhibit No. 354, and ask you if you are able to identify what that is a picture of.

Mr. Youngblood. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. And what does that depict?

Mr. Youngblood. Well, it is a picture showing the main street, Houston Street and Elm Street, and the assassination occurred on Elm Street.

Mr. Specter. Are you familiar at this time with the identities of Main, Houston, and Elm?

Mr. Youngblood. Yes, sir; when I have a map such as this ahead of me.

Mr. Specter. All right. How far behind the President's automobile was the Vice President's automobile in which you were riding when the Vice President's automobile turned right off of Main Street onto Houston?

Mr. Youngblood. You ask again how far were we behind the President's car? Did you mean, sir, how far were we behind the Presidential followup car?

Mr. Specter. No; I meant the President's car on that occasion.

Mr. Youngblood. Well, we were a distance of about two car lengths behind the followup car, and they were probably one car length behind the Presidential car. But this would be a guess on my part.

Mr. Specter. What was the situation with respect to the crowd which was lined up on Houston and Elm as you approached that intersection?

Mr. Youngblood. On Houston Street, on the side where the tall building is, the crowd was still somewhat continuous. On the side which is the park side, the crowd was smaller. They did have some people there, but it wasn't continuous in the same way it was on the building side.

Mr. Specter. What is your best estimate of the speed of the Vice President's car as you proceeded down Houston Street toward Elm Street?

Mr. Youngblood. Well, our speed, of course, was governed by the vehicles in front of us, but I would say we had just made one turn, and it was only a block there before we would make another turn. It was approximately 10 miles an hour, between 10 and 15.

Mr. Specter. I show you a photograph which has been marked as Commission Exhibit No. 348, and I ask you if you are now able to identify what that building is?

Mr. Youngblood. Yes, sir; I am now able to identify it.

Mr. Specter. What is that building, sir?

Mr. Youngblood. That is the School Book Depository Building.

Mr. Specter. Where, as best you can recollect, was the Vice President's car at the time the first shots were heard? And would you take Commission Exhibit No. 354 and take the red pencil and mark as closely as you can the exact position on Commission Exhibit 354 of the Vice President's car with the capital letter "A" there?

Mr. Youngblood. At the time of the first shot, did you say?

Mr. Specter. Yes, sir.

Mr. Youngblood. It will be in this area here, I should think.

Mr. Specter. I want the Vice President's car at this time.

Mr. Youngblood. Well, this is what I am attempting to locate. It would be in the vicinity of this "X" right here, I do believe.

Mr. Specter. All right. Now, will you describe——

Mr. Youngblood. Excuse me. You said put an "A" here?

Mr. Specter. Yes, please. Will you describe just what occurred as the motorcade proceeded past the intersection of Houston and Elm Streets?

Mr. Youngblood. Well, the crowd had begun to diminish, looking ahead and to the right the crowd became spotty. I mean it wasn't continuous at all, like it had been. As we were beginning to go down this incline, all of a sudden149 there was an explosive noise. I quickly observed unnatural movement of crowds, like ducking or scattering, and quick movements in the Presidential followup car. So I turned around and hit the Vice President on the shoulder and hollered, get down, and then looked around again and saw more of this movement, and so I proceeded to go to the back seat and get on top of him.

I then heard two more shots. But I would like to say this. I would not be positive that I was back on that back seat before the second shot. But the Vice President himself said I was. But—then in hearing these two more shots, I again had seen more movement, and I think someone else hit a siren—I heard the noise of a siren.

I told the driver to close it up, and stick close to that car in front. And right away we started a hasty evacuation speed, and left this immediate area, and we were following close behind. And I had a radio which was on a Baker frequency, where I could communicate back with the agents in my followup car. And they had a Charlie frequency, which was on the same network of the Presidential motorcade. And I called back and said I am switching to Baker frequency—I said, "I am switching to Charlie." And as I switched, I heard some transmission over the Charlie sets saying for me to keep my man covered, and I heard Kivett reply to Emory Roberts that he was covered, and I saw agents in the followup car, the Presidential followup car signaling us to stay close. I asked the driver what his opinion was as to—I don't know for exact sure just where we were going, but I knew our best protection was to stay with that Presidential followup crew. And I asked the driver if he had passed the Trade Mart. He said he passed it and we were going on to the hospital. And I heard indications over the radio that we were going to the hospital. We had a very fast ride there.

I told the driver to go as fast as he could without having a wreck. There was some conversation between the Vice President and myself while we were going to the hospital. I told him that I didn't know how serious it was up in the front car, but when we arrived at the hospital, I would like to get out of the car and go into the building and not stop, and for him to stay close to myself and the other agents. He agreed to.

When we arrived at the hospital, we immediately went right in. As we stopped at the hospital, two of my agents from the Vice Presidential car, followup car, were coming up to meet us, and two from the Presidential followup were coming to meet us, and, with this group, we proceeded into the hospital and then went into a room. I posted one man at the door and said, not to let anyone in unless he knew him, was certain of his identity.

I told Jerry Kivett and Warren Taylor to pull all the shades and blinds, which they did. And they also busied themselves with evacuating a couple of people out of there. There was a nurse and a patient in there.

Mr. Specter. Before you go on, Mr. Youngblood, let me drop back and pick up a few of the details theretofore.

What would your best estimate be of the speed of the Vice President's car at the time you heard that first explosive noise?

Mr. Youngblood. Oh, approximately 12 miles an hour.

Mr. Specter. And had you maintained the distance which you have described heretofore behind the President's followup car?

Mr. Youngblood. Yes, generally. Sometimes as we went around corners, we tried to close up the gap a little bit. But as soon as we got on a straight stretch, we would drop back two or three car lengths.

Mr. Specter. Well, at this particular time, what is your best recollection of the distance between the Presidential followup car and the Vice President's car?

Mr. Youngblood. We are on Elm Street now.

Mr. Specter. At the time the first shot occurred.

Mr. Youngblood. We were two or three car lengths behind.

Mr. Specter. And how far behind the President's car was the Presidential followup car at the time of the first shot?

Mr. Youngblood. I would think somewhat less than a car length.

Mr. Specter. What is your best estimate of the total timespan between the first and third shots which you have already described?

150 Mr. Youngblood. From the beginning to the last?

Mr. Specter. Yes, sir.

Mr. Youngblood. I would think 5 seconds.

Mr. Specter. And you have described the first shot as being an explosive noise. How would you describe each of the second and third shots?

Mr. Youngblood. Well, there wasn't too much difference in the noise of the first shot and the last two. I am not really sure that there was a difference. But in my mind, I think I identified the last two positively as shots, whereas the first one I thought was just an explosive noise, and I didn't know whether it was a firecracker or a shot. It seems, as I try to think over it, there was more of a crack sound to the last two shots. That may have been distance, I don't know.

Mr. Specter. Now, as to time interval—was there longer or less time or the same between the first and second shots and the second and third shots?

Mr. Youngblood. There seemed to be a longer span of time between the first and the second shot than there was between the second and third shot.

Mr. Specter. Now, did you have any reaction or impression as to the source or point of origin of the first shot?

Mr. Youngblood. I didn't know where the source or the point of origin was, of course, but the sounds all came to my right and rear.

Mr. Specter. Now, how about as to the latter two shots, would the same apply, or would there be a different situation there?

Mr. Youngblood. No; all of them seemed to sound that they were from the right.

Representative Ford. Did they sound on the surface or in the air or couldn't you discern?

Mr. Youngblood. I couldn't say for certain. I don't know.

Mr. Specter. Now, did you then or have you ever had any contrary impression that the shots might have come from in front as opposed to the rear of the automobile?

Mr. Youngblood. No, sir.

Mr. Specter. Now, you say that you hit the Vice President's shoulder, and at that time you were indicating your left hand, I believe.

Mr. Youngblood. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. Which hand did you use in hitting the Vice President's shoulder?

Mr. Youngblood. My left, sir.

Mr. Specter. And which shoulder of the Vice President did you hit?

Mr. Youngblood. His right, because I turned this way. I turned to my left, with the hand out, and then came into his right shoulder.

Mr. Specter. And when you moved from the front to the rear seat, would you describe in as much detail as you can your relative position with respect to the position of President Johnson's body?

Mr. Youngblood. Well, the Vice President says that I vaulted over. It was more of a stepping over. And then I sat on top of him, he being crouched down somewhat.

Mr. Specter. Indicating towards the left?

Mr. Youngblood. He moved towards the center, or towards his left, yes, sir, and down. And then I sat on this portion of his arm here.

Mr. Specter. Indicating the right upper portion of the arm from elbow to the shoulder?

Mr. Youngblood. Yes, sir; generally.

Mr. Specter. And what were the positions of the other occupants of the back seat at the time you sat on the Vice President?

Mr. Youngblood. Mrs. Johnson more or less moved into a forward—just moved forward. And Senator Yarborough also moved forward, and possibly he moved over a little to the right. I am not sure. But we were all below the window level of the car. And those two generally were forward. But the Vice President was forward and a little to his left.

Mr. Specter. In what direction did you look when you were first sitting on the Vice President?

Mr. Youngblood. In what direction did I look?

Mr. Specter. Yes.

151 Mr. Youngblood. Almost all directions.

Mr. Specter. Did you have a reaction with respect to looking in the direction from which you thought the danger was emanating?

Mr. Youngblood. I think I first looked to the right—but to the right, forward, up, as much as I could scan, and also the people in the Presidential followup car. Because I recall seeing at the time one of our agents, Hickey, who was in the Presidential followup car, in almost a standing position with an AR-15 looking back and up.

Mr. Specter. Are you able to fix the precise time of the assassination?

Mr. Youngblood. I would say 12:30. I was to keep the times. The Vice President was asking me if we were running on time, and so forth. And so he asked me how much further, and I would call back to our followup car and ask them how many more miles and so forth.

So, for this reason, I was at that time keeping up with the time very closely. And when we turned the corner, I noticed an illuminated clock sign on this building, which I now know is the School Book Depository Building. And that clock indicated 12:30. And the reason it is significant is because this was the time we were supposed to arrive at the Trade Mart.

Representative Ford. As you looked at the school depository building, and noticed this clock, where is the clock? Can you identify it?

Mr. Youngblood. This, right here.

Representative Ford. It is on top of the roof?

Mr. Youngblood. Yes, sir; right up here.

Representative Ford. And this is after you turned from Main Street on to Houston Street?

Mr. Youngblood. We were on Houston Street—just as soon as we got on Houston Street. And I looked up and I saw it there.

Representative Ford. Did you notice anything else on the building as you scanned it from the top down, or from the bottom up?

Mr. Youngblood. I noticed open windows, and some people, I think. But I didn't notice this particular window.

Representative Ford. You saw nothing unusual in any of the open windows that you noticed?

Mr. Youngblood. Well, sir, all through the day here we had been passing buildings with windows and people. And that I saw. But I saw nothing unusual.

Mr. Specter. Mr. Youngblood, what is your best estimate as to the time it took to get to Parkland Hospital after the shooting occurred?

Mr. Youngblood. I believe it was between 5 and 8 minutes, something of that nature.

(At this point, Representative Ford withdrew from the hearing room.)

Mr. Specter. And at what speed did your automobile proceed, based on your best estimate, en route from the shooting to Parkland Hospital?

Mr. Youngblood. I believe we were going around 60 or 70 miles an hour at times.

Mr. Specter. Now, did you observe President Kennedy or Governor Connally being removed from the President's automobile?

Mr. Youngblood. No, sir; because I had—as I mentioned before—I had told the Vice President, or suggested to the Vice President that we did not want to linger, and get into the building as quickly as we could, and we would find out the condition of the other party after we got into a safe place.

Mr. Specter. Had they already been taken in by the time you arrived at the scene?

Mr. Youngblood. No, sir; I don't hardly see how they could have been, because we arrived almost simultaneously with them. It was just a matter of opening the door and getting out of the car and hastily walking right on past. I think they were in the act of removing these people, but I don't think they would have had time to have removed them.

Mr. Specter. Did you enter the emergency entrance as well?

Mr. Youngblood. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. Now, I interrupted you before when you were describing the security arrangements which you were making on the room to which you took152 the Vice President. Would you continue and describe for us what occurred thereafter?

Mr. Youngblood. At what point?

Mr. Specter. I interrupted you. You were in the room, you had pulled the shades down, and were making security arrangements for the Vice President.

Mr. Youngblood. Well, we were in a corner of this room, and there was the Vice President, Mrs. Johnson, and myself at first, with agents Kivett and Warren Taylor also in the big room, but not right over in the corner at the beginning. And shortly thereafter Emory Roberts came in. He was one of the White House detail agents. He told us that the situation—situation with President Kennedy looked very bad. The Vice President asked me what I thought—what we should do. And I said I think we should evacuate the hospital as soon as we can, and get on the plane, and return to Washington. And Emory Roberts concurred. And the Vice President agreed. But he wanted to get a better report on the condition and so forth.

Then we were joined by many others. Congressman Homer Thornberry came in, and Congressman Brooks, and Cliff Carter, and the Vice President had some conversations with these gentlemen. And at one time Cliff went out and got coffee. And then Mr. Ken O'Donnell and Roy Kellerman came down on one occasion, and Ken O'Donnell said for us to return to Washington, and to go ahead and take the President's plane.

The Vice President was worried about Mrs. Kennedy. So Mrs. Johnson thought that she would go see Mrs. Kennedy and Mrs. Connally. She did. Agents Kivett and Taylor went with her. Then later, after she came back, Ken O'Donnell and Roy Kellerman came down again and told us that the President had died.

Mr. Specter. About what time was that, sir?

Mr. Youngblood. I don't know. I had told Lem Johns to try to keep up with all the times. I think it is a matter of record. I believe you have it in other documents.

Mr. Specter. Now, are you referring to a document which I will mark as Commission Exhibit 355?

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 355 for identification.)

Mr. Youngblood. This is our shift report, and this is the times that Lem Johns was keeping that day. He shows 1 p.m., President Kennedy died at Parkland Hospital.

Mr. Specter. Was that daily shift report prepared under your supervision, Mr. Youngblood?

Mr. Youngblood. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. Did you review it and approve it when it was completed, after the end of the workday on November 22?

Mr. Youngblood. Well, not exactly at the end of the workday, sir. These agents would keep notes. And in this particular case you can see that this one, it says, "Date completed, December 2" down at the bottom. That is when he got around to typing it.

Mr. Specter. Well, does this document bear your initial in any place?

Mr. Youngblood. Yes, sir; up at the top. The "RYW" is my initials.

Mr. Specter. And does that signify your approval shortly after completion of the document?

Mr. Youngblood. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. All right. Would you go ahead and tell us what your activities were from the time you had learned that the President had died?

Mr. Youngblood. Well, when Mr. O'Donnell and Roy Kellerman told us that he had died, the Vice President said, "Well, how about Mrs. Kennedy?"

O'Donnell told the Vice President that Mrs. Kennedy would not leave the hospital without the President's body. And O'Donnell suggested we go to the plane and that they just come on the other plane. And I might add that, as a word of explanation, there were two jet planes, one Air Force 1, in which the President flew, and the other Air Force 2, in which the Vice President and his party flew on. And O'Donnell told us to go ahead and take Air Force 1. I153 believe this is mainly because Air Force 1 has better communications equipment and so forth than the other planes.

President Johnson said that he didn't want to go off and leave Mrs. Kennedy in such a state. And so he agreed that we would go on to the airplane and board the plane and wait until Mrs. Kennedy and the body would come out. Shall I go on?

Mr. Specter. Yes. Proceed. Did you then depart from Parkland Hospital?

Mr. Youngblood. Yes, sir; previous to all of this, I had Johns, my agent, line up some unmarked police cars so that they would be ready when we did decide to evacuate the hospital.

So we left the room and proceeded out to these cars. The car that we went in was driven by Chief Curry, the Dallas Police Chief, and Congressman Thornberry was in the front seat, and the Vice President and I were in the back seat. And I had told the Vice President before we left the room that I would prefer that he stay below window level, and stay close with me as we went out, and that I would also prefer Mrs. Johnson to go in another car, but she would be accompanied by agents. And Mrs. Johnson did get in a second car. She was accompanied by Warren Taylor and Jerry Kivett and Congressman Brooks, and also Glen Bennett, another agent from the White House.

And as we started to leave the hospital area, that is drive away, just as we started away, Congressman Thomas saw us leaving—I imagine he saw Congressman Thornberry, and he said, "Wait for me." I don't think he saw the Vice President. And I told the driver to continue. I didn't want to stop there in front of the hospital. But by this time Congressman Thomas was right over at the side of the car, and the Vice President said, "Stop and let him get in."

So he got in in the front seat with Congressman Thornberry, having Congressman Thornberry move over closer to the driver. And then we started out again. This probably takes longer to tell about it than it actually took. It was about a 30-second stop.

We started out again, and the Vice President asked Congressman Thornberry to climb on over and get in the back seat, which he did, while the car was in motion. And then that put Congressman Thornberry behind the driver, and on the Vice President's left, and I was on his right.

And we continued on our way. We were momentarily stopped as we were leaving the hospital on this access road. There was a truck or delivery or something coming in there. We were stopped for one moment. But then the police got us on through, and we went on out to the main roads, and we were getting a motorcycle escort.

And they started using the sirens, and the Vice President and I both asked Chief Curry to discontinue the use of sirens, that we didn't want to attract attention. We were going on an unscheduled different route. We were not using any particular route. But in telling Lem Johns to get a car available, I told him to be sure and get a local driver who knew the area, a local policeman who could take us any route that we needed to go, and knew all the areas of evacuation and so forth.

So we went on to the airport. But we did have him stop using the sirens. And just before arriving at the airport, I called on the radio and told Air Force 1 to be ready to receive us, that we would be coming on board immediately. We arrived there and ran up the ramp onto the plane.

Mr. Specter. And how long after that did the swearing-in ceremonies occur? Approximately?

Mr. Youngblood. I would say in the neighborhood of about 40 or 45 minutes after that.

Mr. Specter. How long after the arrival of the Vice President on the plane did the party of the late President Kennedy and Mrs. Kennedy arrive at the plane?

Mr. Youngblood. Approximately—after we got on the plane, I would say it was approximately 30 or 35 minutes before Mrs. Kennedy and that party arrived.

Mr. Specter. And how long after the swearing-in ceremonies did the plane take off for the Washington area?

154 Mr. Youngblood. After the swearing-in ceremonies, it took off immediately. It was just a matter of letting the people who had to get off the plane, such as Judge Hughes and Chief Curry disembark, and as soon as they had disembarked, we closed the door and started taxiing out.

Mr. Specter. Were there any conversations between Vice President Johnson and anyone else with respect to advice on the swearing-in ceremonies?

Mr. Youngblood. Yes, sir. I think probably the first thing the Vice President did after he got on board the plane was to place a call to the Attorney General. In fact, he talked to the Attorney General, I believe, two times—at least two times.

Mr. Specter. Were you present when those conversations occurred?

Mr. Youngblood. I was present when he placed the first call. I think he placed the first call from the bedroom there of the plane. Then someone from the Attorney General's office called back—not the Attorney General, but someone from the office—and gave the wording of the oath.

Mr. Specter. Were you informed as to what advice Vice President Johnson received from Mr. Kennedy with respect to the time of swearing in?

Mr. Youngblood. I heard him discussing this—because after we got on board the plane I told them to pull down the shades, and then I told the Vice President, I am going to stick with you like glue while we are on the ground here. And so we were joined by Mrs. Johnson and then by Congressman Thornberry and Thomas, and Congressman Brooks. And I heard them discussing about taking the oath immediately, right there in Dallas. I heard the Vice President ask about anyone in particular that should administer the oath. And as I gathered from conversation, it was anyone who was authorized to administer a Federal oath. And then he put in calls to Judge Hughes, and he told me to expect Judge Hughes and to be sure she could get through the security lines.

Mr. Specter. Well, were you informed that Attorney General Kennedy advised Vice President Johnson that he should have himself sworn in as promptly as possible?

Mr. Youngblood. Well, as I said, I was in the area, in their immediate vicinity, when they were talking about it. And this is what I gathered from hearing them talk—that the Attorney General had told him to go ahead and be sworn in there, as soon as possible.

Mr. Specter. And upon arrival back in Andrews Air Force Base, what activity, if any, were you engaged in then, along with President Johnson?

Mr. Youngblood. Well, on the plane, on the flight up here, there had been numerous radio contacts in making arrangements and so forth. But when we actually arrived, Mrs. Kennedy and the body were removed first by the lift that was provided, and then when the ramp was in place, our party disembarked from the plane, and then President Johnson had a short statement that he was to make, and we went over to an area where the microphones were set up, and he made this brief statement. And then we proceeded from there to the awaiting helicopter, which was just a few yards away. We boarded the helicopter and flew in to the south grounds of the White House.

Mr. Specter. And did you then accompany President Johnson to his home?

Mr. Youngblood. He didn't go to his home at that time; but the answer to your question is yes, when he did go later that night. You see, he went to his office in the EOB, the Executive Office Building, and conducted business there until in the vicinity of 9 o'clock. And then he went home, at which time I accompanied him, and many other agents.

Mr. Specter. Would you describe briefly what security arrangements if any were instituted on that day for the Vice President's daughters?

Mr. Youngblood. Yes, sir.

While we were in the hospital, receiving these reports relative to President Kennedy's condition, I asked Mrs. Johnson—I knew generally where Luci and Lynda were, but I wanted to get the very latest from her, since sometimes these girls might visit a friend or a relative. And I knew that Lynda was going to the University of Texas, and that Luci was going to National Cathedral. So I confirmed the locations with Mrs. Johnson and then told Agent Kivett, who was in our presence at the time I was talking to her, to make the necessary calls155 to have Secret Service protection placed around Lynda and Luci. And Agent Kivett made these calls and then came back and reported to me that Lockwood, from Austin, who is in the San Antonio office, but he was in Austin at the time, had proceeded to the University of Texas to get Lynda, and that an agent from the Washington field office would go out and get Luci at the school.

Mr. Specter. Mr. Chief Justice, I move for the admission into evidence of Commission Exhibits No. 354, which is a reproduction of the overhead shot, and 355, which is a reproduction of the Vice Presidential detail schedules.

The Chairman. They may be admitted.

(The documents heretofore marked for identification as Commission Exhibits Nos. 354 and 355, were received in evidence.)

Mr. Specter. That concludes my questions, sir.

The Chairman. Mr. Craig, any questions?

Mr. Craig. No, sir.

Mr. Murray. I have no questions, Mr. Chief Justice.

The Chairman. Well, Agent Youngblood, thank you very much for coming and testifying. We appreciate it.

We will adjourn now. We will adjourn until 9 in the morning.

(Whereupon, at 6:20 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)


Tuesday, March 10, 1964
TESTIMONY OF ROBERT HILL JACKSON, ARNOLD LOUIS ROWLAND, JAMES RICHARD WORRELL, JR., AND AMOS LEE EUINS

The President's Commission met at 9:15 a.m. on March 10, 1964 at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C.

Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Senator John Sherman Cooper and Representative Gerald R. Ford, members.

Also present were Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel; David W. Belin, assistant counsel; Norman Redlich, assistant counsel; Arlen Specter, assistant counsel; and Edward L. Wright, Chairman, House of Delegates, American Bar Association.

TESTIMONY OF ROBERT HILL JACKSON

The Chairman. All right, gentlemen, are we ready? Would you raise your right hand and be sworn, Mr. Jackson? Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. Jackson. I do.

The Chairman. Will you be seated, please.

Mr. Specter will conduct the examination.

Mr. Specter. Will you state——

The Chairman. First, I will read a very small short statement for the record. The purpose of this day's hearing is to hear the testimony of Arnold Louis Rowland, Amos Lee Euins, James Richard Worrell, and Robert H. Jackson, who were in the vicinity of the assassination scene on November 22, 1963. The Commission proposes to ask these witnesses for facts concerning their knowledge of the assassination of President Kennedy.

You have seen a copy of this, have you, Mr. Jackson?

Mr. Jackson. Yes, sir.

The Chairman. Very well, you may proceed, Mr. Specter.

Mr. Specter. Would you state your full name for the record, please?

Mr. Jackson. Robert Hill Jackson.

Mr. Specter. And what is your address, Mr. Jackson?

Mr. Jackson. 4030 Sperry.

156 Mr. Specter. What city is that located in?

Mr. Jackson. Dallas, Tex.

Mr. Specter. How long have you lived at that address, please?

Mr. Jackson. Since September of 1963.

Mr. Specter. And of what State are you a native?

Mr. Jackson. I am a native of Dallas, Tex.

Mr. Specter. Have you lived in Dallas all your life?

Mr. Jackson. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. What is your occupation at the present time?

Mr. Jackson. Staff photographer for the Dallas Times Herald.

Mr. Specter. How long have you been so employed?

Mr. Jackson. Since August of 1960.

Mr. Specter. Will you outline for us briefly——

The Chairman. 1950 or 1960?

Mr. Jackson. 1960.

Mr. Specter. Will you outline for us briefly your educational background, please?

Mr. Jackson. I attended Highland Park High School and then Southern Methodist University, where I studied for a business degree, and I did not finish. I lack about 8 hours of finishing, of getting a degree.

Mr. Specter. What year did you leave the university?

Mr. Jackson. 1957.

Mr. Specter. How were you occupied between the time you left the university and the time you started to work for the newspaper?

Mr. Jackson. I did some freelance photography work for a while, over a year, until I went into the service on the 6 month's plan through my National Guard unit, and I was a photographer there in the Army, on-the-job training, and then after I was released from the Army I did freelance work, I guess for about a year, until I got the job at the Herald.

Mr. Specter. How old are you at the present time?

Mr. Jackson. Twenty-nine.

Mr. Specter. What is your marital status?

Mr. Jackson. I am married.

Mr. Specter. Do you have children?

Mr. Jackson. One child. One girl 15 months today.

Mr. Specter. Going back to November 22, 1963, by whom were you employed at that time?

Mr. Jackson. Dallas Times Herald.

Mr. Specter. What was your assignment on that specific day?

Mr. Jackson. I was assigned to the motorcade to meet the President, Love Field, and go to the Trade Mart and that was the extent of it, cover the parade, I mean the motorcade and the speech.

Mr. Specter. Were you assigned to take pictures?

Mr. Jackson. To take pictures, yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. Did you meet the President at Love Field?

Mr. Jackson. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. And did you take photographs for your newspaper at Love Field?

Mr. Jackson. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. Describe briefly your activities at Love Field on the morning of November 22, please.

Mr. Jackson. Well, we got there, I guess, 30, 40 minutes early.

Mr. Specter. At about what time would that have been?

Mr. Jackson. I have to think to remember exactly what time, around 9, I guess, 9 to 9:15, I believe. And I took pictures there. There were other photographers from our paper there, our chief photographer. And we just took shots of the crowd, and waited for the President to arrive.

And then when he did arrive, our chief photographer left and went directly to the Trade Mart and I got into the motorcade to ride to town.

Mr. Specter. Do you know exactly which car you were in in the motorcade?

Mr. Jackson. We counted up, and it is either the seventh or eighth car. We said eighth car from the President, from the lead car.

157 Mr. Specter. When you say we counted up, whom do you mean?

Mr. Jackson. The photographers in the car. As we left Love Field, we were trying to figure how far back we were and we all decided it was the eighth car.

Mr. Specter. Can you reconstruct that count for us which provided the basis for your conclusion that you were in the seventh or eighth car. For example, how many cars ahead of you was the President's car or the Vice President's car, if you can recollect, please.

Mr. Jackson. Let me think a minute. I know there was a photographer's car directly in front of us which I believe had some of the local press. It was a convertible. Then in front were, I believe, two or three cars carrying the press, the White House press, and then President Johnson, I guess would be in the next car, and then the President in the lead car, or the next car, and I believe there was another car in the lead.

Mr. Specter. So as you recollect the scene there was the lead and immediately behind the lead car, whose car?

Mr. Jackson. The President's, I believe.

Mr. Specter. And then immediately behind the President's whose car?

Mr. Jackson. The Vice President's.

Mr. Specter. And immediately to the rear of the Vice President's car?

Mr. Jackson. Press vehicles and I was told it was the White House press, two or three cars.

Mr. Specter. And then there was one car filled with photographers?

Mr. Jackson. Directly in front of us.

Mr. Specter. Between your car and the cars which you believe to have been filled with White House newsmen?

Mr. Jackson. Yes, sir.

The Chairman. Wasn't there a Secret Service car directly behind the President's car?

Mr. Jackson. Yes, sir.

The Chairman. Between it and the Vice President's car?

Mr. Jackson. Yes, sir; that is right.

Mr. Specter. Wasn't there a Secret Service car immediately behind the Vice President's car, if you know?

Mr. Jackson. There must have been. That is what I can't recall is which was which in there. I knew the White House press was in there but I didn't know how many cars. I am sure there were Secret Service cars, yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. As you were proceeding along in the motorcade, were you within sight of the President's automobile?

Mr. Jackson. At times. When he was—when we could not get a clear view of it because of the photographers in the car ahead of us who were sitting up on the back of the seat just like we were, we did not have a clear view of the car at all times.

Mr. Specter. As you proceeded along approximately how far behind the President's car were you, expressed either in cars, block lengths or in any way that is convenient for you?

Mr. Jackson. Well, I would say approximately a block, average city block, maybe closer at times.

Mr. Specter. Mr. Jackson, I show you a photograph which has been marked heretofore as Commission Exhibit No. 347, and ask you to look at it for a moment, and see if you can identify what that photograph depicts.

Mr. Jackson. Yes, sir; this is the scene of the assassination, parade route, Main and Houston, left on Elm.

Mr. Specter. Now, which street did the Presidential motorcade take coming on to that scene which you have described as the assassination scene.

Mr. Jackson. They were on Houston.

Mr. Specter. And before Houston what street were they on?

Mr. Jackson. Main Street.

Mr. Specter. What direction were they proceeding on Main Street?

Mr. Jackson. West.

Mr. Specter. Now without reference to the photograph, will you tell us what happened as the motorcade proceeded west on Main Street?

158 Mr. Jackson. Well, on Main, as we neared Houston Street everyone was more or less in a relaxed state in our car, because we were near the end of the route, I guess, nothing unusual happened on Main Street.

The final block on Main, before we turned on Houston I was in the process of unloading a camera and I was to toss it out of the car as we turned right on Houston Street to one of our reporters.

Mr. Specter. Had that been set up by prearrangement?

Mr. Jackson. Yes, sir. And that I did as we turned the corner, and when—it was in an interval and as I threw it out the wind blew it, caught it and blew it out into the street and our reporter chased it out into the street and the photographers in our car, one of the photographers, was a TV cameraman whom I do not recall his name, and he was joking about the film being thrown out and he was shooting my picture of throwing the film out.

Mr. Specter. At this point could you tell us, to the best of your recollection, precisely who was with you in the car at that time?

Mr. Jackson. Jim Underwood from KRLD-TV station, Tom Dillard, chief photographer for the Dallas Morning News, and me, and then two newsreel cameramen who I know by sight but I don't know their names.

One is with WFAA which is the Dallas Morning News station, and I believe the other was channel 11, I believe.

Mr. Specter. Can you position those people in the automobile for us with respect to where each was sitting?

(At this point Representative Ford entered the hearing room.)

Mr. Jackson. Tom Dillard and Jim Underwood were in the front seat with the driver.

Mr. Specter. Can you identify who the driver was?

Mr. Jackson. No, sir.

Mr. Specter. But he was a sixth individual separate and apart from the five heretofore described?

Mr. Jackson. Yes, sir. And in the back seat were the two I know by sight but I can't remember the names.

And I was on the right side of the car.

Mr. Specter. On the right side of which seat?

Mr. Jackson. Back seat, sitting up on the back of a seat.

Mr. Specter. What kind of a car was it, sir?

Mr. Jackson. I believe it was a Chevrolet convertible.

Mr. Specter. Top down?

Mr. Jackson. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. Were you carrying one camera or more than one camera?

Mr. Jackson. Two cameras.

Mr. Specter. And was one camera loaded at the time you rounded the corner of Main and Houston?

Mr. Jackson. Yes, sir; and one was empty.

Mr. Specter. Was it from the camera which was empty that you had taken the roll of film which you have just described?

Mr. Jackson. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. All right. Will you now proceed to tell us what happened as you rounded the corner of Main and Houston, please?

Mr. Jackson. Well, as our reporter chased the film out into the street, we all looked back at him and were laughing, and it was approximately that time that we heard the first shot, and we had already rounded the corner, of course, when we heard the first shot. We were approximately almost half a block on Houston Street.

Mr. Specter. Will you identify for me on Commission Exhibit 347, precisely as possible, where your automobile was at the time you heard the first shot?

Mr. Jackson. Approximately right here, I would say the midpoint of this building. Approximately where we heard the first report.

Mr. Specter. Now, will you mark in a black "X" on 347 the spot where your car was at the time you heard the first shot?

Mr. Jackson. Right here approximately. And as we heard the first shot, I believe it was Tom Dillard from Dallas News who made some remark as to that159 sounding like a firecracker, and it could have been somebody else who said that. But someone else did speak up and make that comment and before he actually finished the sentence we heard the other two shots. Then we realized or we thought that it was gunfire, and then we could not at that point see the President's car. We were still moving slowly, and after the third shot the second two shots seemed much closer together than the first shot, than they were to the first shot. Then after the last shot, I guess all of us were just looking all around and I just looked straight up ahead of me which would have been looking at the School Book Depository and I noticed two Negro men in a window straining to see directly above them, and my eyes followed right on up to the window above them and I saw the rifle or what looked like a rifle approximately half of the weapon, I guess I saw, and just as I looked at it, it was drawn fairly slowly back into the building, and I saw no one in the window with it.

I didn't even see a form in the window.

Mr. Specter. What did you do next?

Mr. Jackson. I said "There is the gun," or it came from that window. I tried to point it out. But by the time the other people looked up, of course, it was gone, and about that time we were beginning to turn the corner.

Mr. Specter. Which corner were you beginning to turn?

Mr. Jackson. Houston onto Elm.

Mr. Specter. I now show you a photograph marked as Commission Exhibit No. 348 and ask you if you can identify what that depicts?

Mr. Jackson. This is the School Book Depository. This is the window the two colored men were looking out of. This is the window where the rifle was.

Mr. Specter. Will you mark the window where the rifle was with an "A" and would you please mark the window where you have identified the men below with a "B."

(Witness marking.)

Mr. Specter. Referring to your mark of "A," the photograph will show that you have marked the window on the sixth floor with the mark being placed on the window on the westerly half of the first double window.

Mr. Jackson. I am sorry. This window here on the very end was the window where the weapon was. I am sorry, I just marked the double—actually this is the rifle window right here.

Mr. Specter. Will you take the black pencil again and draw an arrow—before you start to mark, hear the rest of the question—as precisely as you can to the exact spot where you saw what you have described as the rifle.

(Witness marking.)

Mr. Specter. Was the window you have just marked as being the spot from which the rifle protruded, open when you looked up?

Mr. Jackson. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. What is your best recollection as to how far open it was at that time?

Mr. Jackson. I would say that it was open like that window there, halfway.

Mr. Specter. Indicating a window on the sixth floor of the westernmost portion of the building open halfway as you have described it.

My last comment, as to the description of your last window, is only for the purpose of what you have said in identifying a window to show how far open the window was.

Mr. Jackson. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Which you heretofore marked with an arrow, correct?

Mr. Jackson. Yes, sir.

Also in that window I could see boxes, corrugated boxes on the left portion which would be my left, of the window, of the open window.

Mr. Specter. How many boxes could you see?

Mr. Jackson. I couldn't tell. It just seemed like a stack of boxes.

Mr. Specter. How high were the boxes stacked?

Mr. Jackson. Maybe two is all I saw. They were stacked, I believe they were as high as the window was open, halfway up the window.

Mr. Specter. What is your best recollection of the size of those boxes which you say you saw?

Mr. Jackson. Maybe like that, that wide.

160 Mr. Specter. Indicating approximately 3 feet wide?

Mr. Jackson. Three feet or a little less maybe.

Mr. Specter. What was the height of those boxes?

Mr. Jackson. I would say high enough to hide a man. Let's say, between 5 and 6 feet high, I would say to the best of my recollection. From the angle I was looking at it, I would say they were 5 feet high at least.

Mr. Specter. That is each box would be 5 feet high?

Mr. Jackson. No; the stack, the stacked boxes.

Mr. Specter. Could you see how many boxes were stacked up to reach a total height of 5 to 6 feet?

Mr. Jackson. No, sir.

Mr. Specter. Now, were you able to see anyone in front of those boxes?

Mr. Jackson. No, sir.

Mr. Specter. Whether or not you could identify anyone, could you see even the form or outline of the man?

Mr. Jackson. No, sir. It looked to me like the man was over to the side of the window because the rifle was at quite an angle to me.

Mr. Specter. Which side of the window?

Mr. Jackson. Well, from the position of the rifle it would be the corner of the building, the east. It would be to the right of the window from my view.

Mr. Specter. Which direction was the rifle pointing?

Mr. Jackson. West. To my left.

Mr. Specter. Was it pointing in a straight westerly direction or was it pointing at an angle from the building.

Mr. Jackson. It was at an angle from the building. I am not—well, let's see—well, it wouldn't be directly west.

Mr. Specter. What was the general line of direction of the pointing of the rifle?

Mr. Jackson. Well, directly down the street.

Mr. Specter. And by down the street you are pointing out what street?

Mr. Jackson. Down Elm Street toward the triple, toward the underpass.

Mr. Specter. Was it pointed as you have indicated at the angle which Elm Street traverses heading toward the triple underpass?

Mr. Jackson. Yes, sir. And the rifle was pointing slightly down.

Mr. Specter. Did you at any time in this sequence observe the President's automobile?

Mr. Jackson. As we turned the corner—or we stopped where the intersection, actually we stopped before we began to turn left onto Elm Street, or rather I would say we hesitated and we were all looking down towards the President's car and I could see two cars going under the underpass. I barely saw the President's car. I would say just the rear end of it as it disappeared under the underpass.

Mr. Specter. Was that the only time you saw the President's car from the time you made a right-hand turn off of Main Street onto Houston Street?

Mr. Jackson. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. What is your best estimate as to the time span between the first shot you heard and the last shot you heard?

Mr. Jackson. I would say 5 to 8 seconds.

Mr. Specter. Can you give us a breakdown between the shots which you heard as to how many seconds elapsed between each one?

Mr. Jackson. I would say to me it seemed like 3 or 4 seconds between the first and the second, and between the second and third, well, I guess 2 seconds, they were very close together. It could have been more time between the first and second. I really can't be sure.

Mr. Specter. Are you sure you heard three shots?

Mr. Jackson. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. Now, will you mark on the overhead shot, which is Exhibit 347, with a "Y" as precisely as you can the position of your automobile at the time you heard the second shot?

Mr. Jackson. With a "Y"?

161 Mr. Specter. Yes, please.

(Witness marking.)

Mr. Specter. Would you now mark on the same exhibit the precise position of your car as closely as you can recollect it when you heard the third shot with a letter "Z"?

(Witness marking.)

Mr. Specter. When, in relation to the timing of the shots, which you have described, did you first look toward the Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mr. Jackson. It couldn't have been more than 3 seconds before I looked at that window.

Mr. Specter. Three seconds from what point in time?

Mr. Jackson. From the last shot.

Mr. Specter. Did you say from the last shot?

Mr. Jackson. From the last shot, yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. What is your best recollection or estimate of the speed of your automobile as you were proceeding in a generally northerly direction on Houston Street at the time of the shooting?

Mr. Jackson. I would say not over 15 miles an hour.

Mr. Specter. What would your best estimate be as to the minimum speed?

Mr. Jackson. Ten, I would say.

Mr. Specter. Where, in the window were the two Negro men, whom you have described?

Mr. Jackson. Well, there was one in each of those double windows.

Mr. Specter. On which floor was that?

Mr. Jackson. The fifth floor.

Mr. Specter. And will you place an arrow where you saw each of those men, please?

Mr. Jackson. Each one of them?

Mr. Specter. Yes.

(Witness marking.)

Mr. Specter. Did you observe any reaction from either or both of those two men when you saw them?

Mr. Jackson. No, sir. Just looking up.

Mr. Specter. Could you see their faces reasonably clearly to observe that they were looking up.

Mr. Jackson. I could tell they were looking up because they were leaning way out just like that. I couldn't see their faces very well at all.

Mr. Specter. The witness has leaned forward and turned his head to the right and looking upward as he sits in the witness chair, may the record show.

Representative Ford. Did they both turn the same way as you have indicated in answer to Mr. Specter's question?

Mr. Jackson. To the best of my recollection one man looked up to his right and the other man looked up like this to his left, one in each window.

Representative Ford. Can you identify which to his right and which to his left?

Mr. Jackson. I believe the one on the right window, my right, was looking to his right. The one on the west window, the one to my left was looking to his left. I believe I am right on that but I may not be because I just looked at them for a fraction of a second, I just followed them up.

Mr. Specter. What is your best estimate of the distance which separated you from those two men at the time you observed them?

Mr. Jackson. I am not very good at distances. I was about the middle of the block, I guess. I would say around a hundred yards, I guess.

Mr. Specter. Did you see those two men before or after you observed the rifle?

Mr. Jackson. Before.

Mr. Specter. What is your best estimate of how many inches of the rifle that you observed?

Mr. Jackson. I saw the barrel and about half—well, I did not see a telescopic162 sight, but I did see part of the stock, so I guess maybe 8 or 10 inches of the stock maybe. I did see part of the stock, I did not see the sight.

Mr. Specter. Eight or ten inches of the stock, and how much of the barrel would you estimate?

Mr. Jackson. I guess possibly a foot.

Mr. Specter. Did you see anyone's hands on the rifle?

Mr. Jackson. No, sir.

Mr. Specter. Now, as best as you can recollect it, what exact words did you state at or about the time you made the observation of the rifle, if any?

Mr. Jackson. I said, "There is the gun" and somebody said "Where?" And I said, "It came from that window" and I pointed to that window.

Mr. Specter. Do you recollect who it was who said "Where?"

Mr. Jackson. Somebody in the car, I don't recall who.

Mr. Specter. Did anybody else in the car say anything else at that time?

Mr. Jackson. Nothing that I could remember. I am sure they were all talking.

Mr. Specter. Did you say anything else at about that time?

Mr. Jackson. If I did, I don't remember.

Mr. Specter. Did anyone in the automobile state that he, too, had seen the rifle from the window?

Mr. Jackson. No, sir.

Mr. Specter. Did you have a conversation with all of the men in the car immediately after the incident?

Mr. Jackson. No, sir; because as, I guess after the third shot, I do recall the driver speeding up, and we hesitated at the corner before turning left, and three of the occupants of the car got out, jumped out.

Mr. Specter. Who were those three?

Mr. Jackson. That was Underwood, Jim Underwood, Tom Dillard and one of the TV cameramen. The WHAA channel 8 cameraman and I were left in the back seat. We couldn't make up our minds.

Mr. Specter. Was there an individual in the car by the name of Mr. Couch, to your knowledge?

Mr. Jackson. Couch?

Mr. Specter. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jackson. I don't know him.

Mr. Specter. Malcolm Couch?

Mr. Jackson. The name is familiar. I might state what I did see as we did hesitate there, at the corner, I don't recall whether this was before the other three fellows got out of the car or not, I believe we were still all in the car, as we observed these other things, but in a fleeting glance as I saw the cars go under the underpass, I did see people running. I saw a motorcycle policeman jump off his motorcycle, in fact, he just hit the curb and just let it fall, and he went down on his knees on the grass, on the lawn of that parkway.

I did see a family covering up their child, and I just saw a state of confusion, people running, and that is about all I saw at that point of the scene.

Mr. Specter. Mr. Jackson, at the time you heard the first shot, did you have any reaction or impression from the sound itself as to the source of the shot, point of origin?

Mr. Jackson. No, sir; I didn't. It did sound like it came from ahead of us or from that general vicinity but I could not tell whether it was high up or on the ground.

Mr. Specter. When you say that general vicinity, what vicinity did you mean?

Mr. Jackson. We were sure it came from ahead of us which would be in a northerly direction, northwesterly direction. It did sound as though it came from somewhere around the head of the motorcade.

Mr. Specter. From the second shot, did you have any reaction or impression as to the source of this shot?

Mr. Jackson. No, sir. Through all three shots, I could just tell that it was ahead of me and not behind me, that is it.

Mr. Specter. And the same impression then prevailed through the third shot as well.

163 Mr. Jackson. Yes, sir. To me it never sounded like it was high or low.

Mr. Specter. Have you had occasion since this incident to relate the factual sequences, your observations and what you heard? Have you had occasion to tell anybody about what you saw and heard as you have described it to us?

Mr. Jackson. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. Has there been any variation in your recollection or impressions about your observations on these occasions?

Mr. Jackson. Not to my knowledge. The other times were not as thorough as this.

Mr. Specter. Mr. Chief Justice, those are all of the questions which I have, sir.

The Chairman. Congressman Ford, any questions you would like to ask Mr. Jackson?

Representative Ford. Mr. Jackson, when and by whom were you questioned or interrogated subsequent to the event? I was thinking of the FBI, the Secret Service, or any investigative organization.

Mr. Jackson. You say when, how soon afterwards?

Representative Ford. Right.

Mr. Jackson. I would say within 2 days afterwards, let's see, the next day was the first day.

Representative Ford. Saturday November 23?

Mr. Jackson. Yes, sir; I believe it was the first time.

Representative Ford. Who, by name, if you can, but if not by what organization?

Mr. Jackson. The FBI called me, I believe it was Friday evening, and I believe I did give some information on the phone Friday night.

Representative Ford. Was that followed up——

Mr. Jackson. And they came and saw me in the office, I believe on Saturday.

Representative Ford. How did they happen to contact you? Had you made a statement publicly before?

Mr. Jackson. Our newspaper ran an article by me or I got a byline on it stating this in general which I have stated today.

Representative Ford. Following this initial contact have you made subsequent statements to various organizations or any organization?

Mr. Jackson. I made statements to the Secret Service also. Other than that there was none other.

Representative Ford. How good are your eyes, do you wear glasses?

Mr. Jackson. No, sir.

Representative Ford. Have you had an eye examination recently or when was the last examination?

Mr. Jackson. I had a physical when I reenlisted in the National Guard, let's see, that was, I believe, about a year and a half ago, I had that physical and I had 20–20 vision.

Representative Ford. 20–20 vision?

Mr. Jackson. Yes, sir.

Representative Ford. You just indicated you were in the Texas National Guard?

Mr. Jackson. Yes, sir.

Representative Ford. How long have you been in the Texas National Guard?

Mr. Jackson. I joined in October 1958.

Representative Ford. And you have been in continuously since?

Mr. Jackson. Yes, sir.

Representative Ford. So you are familiar with guns in general?

Mr. Jackson. Yes, sir.

Representative Ford. So you would readily identify, if you saw it, a rifle?

Mr. Jackson. Yes, sir.

Representative Ford. Did any others in the automobile in which you were riding recollect as far as you know, hearing you say "There is the gun."

Mr. Jackson. I don't know whether they would remember it or not.

Representative Ford. Have you ever talked with any others in the car?

Mr. Jackson. I have never sat down and talked with them about the events,164 no, sir. I have seen them, of course, several times but I have never discussed it with them.

Representative Ford. You never discussed what you said or what they said?

Mr. Jackson. No, sir. I guess the one man I have discussed it more with than anybody else was Tom Dillard, the chief photographer for the Dallas News, and we recalled to each other the scene but we really never went into any detail or as to what each one of us said either.

Representative Ford. At the time you were in the car, after it had turned from Main onto Houston, was there any noise from the crowd on either side of the street, Houston Street?

Mr. Jackson. There was very little crowd on Houston, as I recall. On Houston itself. The crowd—I mean as compared to Main Street, to the other end of town and down through Main. The crowd thinned out as we got down near the intersection of Main and Houston, and there were a lot less people but I couldn't make an estimate of how many.

Representative Ford. There was no noise from the crowd at that point?

Mr. Jackson. No, sir; no noise, I would say.

Representative Ford. At the time you heard the first shot, what was your position in the car? Were you standing or sitting?

Mr. Jackson. I was sitting on the back of the seat, on the right-hand side of the back seat, sitting up.

Representative Ford. Did you have your camera in your hand?

Mr. Jackson. Yes; I had one camera around my neck and the camera I had just emptied, it was in my lap. I had thrown my film out to this reporter over the side of the car as we rounded the corner and I still had the camera lying in my lap, and the other one was around my neck.

Representative Ford. Was this the position you were in at the time you heard the first shot?

Mr. Jackson. Yes, sir.

Representative Ford. After the third shot and as the car hesitated, did you see any law enforcement officials move in any concentrated or concerted direction?

Mr. Jackson. I saw at least one, there may have been more, run up the School Depository steps, toward the door. That is one of the things I saw in this confusion.

Representative Ford. This was separate from the policeman on the motorcycle?

Mr. Jackson. Yes, sir. Yes. I should have said that a while ago. There was a policeman who moved toward the door of the Depository. But to my best knowledge there was no concentrated movement toward any one spot. It looked like general confusion to me, and of course, I stayed in the car. As we did turn the corner our driver speeded up and we went by the scene pretty fast and I do recall this Negro family covering up their child on the grass, and I, as we passed them, they were just getting up and he had the child in his arms and the child looked limp and I didn't know whether the child was shot or not. But then we were moving fast and went on under the underpass.

Representative Ford. That is all, Mr. Chairman.

The Chairman. Mr. Wright, do you have any questions?

Mr. Wright. No, Mr. Chief Justice, I passed a question on.

Mr. Specter. I have just one additional question, and that is whether Mr. Jackson had any occasion to see anybody leave the scene of the Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mr. Jackson. No, sir.

Mr. Specter. That is all, Your Honor.

The Chairman. Mr. Jackson, thank you very much for coming.

Mr. Jackson. Thank you.

The Chairman. We appreciate it.

Who is next?

Mr. Specter. Mr. Rowland.

The Chairman. Would you raise your right hand and be sworn, please.

Do you solemnly swear the testimony given before this Commission will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

165 Mr. Rowland. Yes, sir.

The Chairman. Mr. Specter will conduct the examination.

Mr. Specter. Will you state your full name for the record, please, but before you do, Mr. Chief Justice, is it your practice to read that statement to the witness?

The Chairman. Yes. I will read a short statement to you for the purpose of the hearing.

The purpose of today's hearing is to hear the testimony of Arnold Louis Rowland, Amos Lee Euins, James Richard Worrell, and Robert H. Jackson, who were in the vicinity of the assassination scene on November 22, 1963. The Commission proposes to ask these witnesses for facts concerning their knowledge of the assassination of President Kennedy.

A copy of that statement was furnished to you, was it not?

Mr. Rowland. No.

The Chairman. You didn't see it. You have one before you. Very well.

TESTIMONY OF ARNOLD LOUIS ROWLAND

Mr. Specter. Will you please state your full name for the record, Mr. Rowland?

Mr. Rowland. Arnold Louis Rowland.

Mr. Specter. What is your address?

Mr. Rowland. 1131 Aphinney.

Mr. Specter. And in what city do you reside?

Mr. Rowland. This is Dallas, Tex.

Mr. Specter. How long have you resided in Dallas, Tex.

Mr. Rowland. About 9 months at present.

Mr. Specter. Where did you live before coming to Dallas?

Mr. Rowland. In Salem, Oreg.

Mr. Specter. How long did you live in Salem, Oreg.

Mr. Rowland. About 3 months.

Mr. Specter. Where did you live before moving to Salem, Oreg.

Mr. Rowland. Dallas.

Mr. Specter. How long did you live in Dallas at that time?

Mr. Rowland. About 4 years.

Mr. Specter. Where were you born?

Mr. Rowland. Corpus Christi, Tex.

Mr. Specter. Have you lived in Texas most of your life?

Mr. Rowland. Most of my life.

Mr. Specter. What is your age at the present time, Mr. Rowland?

Mr. Rowland. Eighteen.

Mr. Specter. And what is your exact date of birth, please?

Mr. Rowland. April 29, 1945.

Mr. Specter. What is your marital status.

Mr. Rowland. Married.

Mr. Specter. Have you any children?

Mr. Rowland. No.

Mr. Specter. How long have you been married?

Mr. Rowland. Ten months.

Mr. Specter. What education have you had, sir?

Mr. Rowland. High school.

Mr. Specter. Are you attending high school at the present time?

Mr. Rowland. I have finished, and fixing to go to college.

Mr. Specter. When did you graduate from high school?

Mr. Rowland. June 1963.

Mr. Specter. How have you been occupied or employed since June of 1963?

Mr. Rowland. Worked in Oregon at three different jobs. Exchange Lumber Co. as a shipping clerk, Meier Frank Co. as a clothes salesman, and part time at West Foods. The business was mushroom processing. That was during the summer.

Upon my return to Dallas, I worked part time, while doing some postgraduate166 work, at the Pizza Inn. At present I am working with the P. F. Collier Co.

Mr. Specter. What sort of work are you doing with P. F. Collier?

Mr. Rowland. That is promotional advertising.

Mr. Specter. What college are you attending, if any, at the present time?

Mr. Rowland. None at the present.

Mr. Specter. What postgraduate work had you been doing that you just mentioned?

Mr. Rowland. Studies in math and science.

Mr. Specter. Where were you studying these courses?

Mr. Rowland. This was a high school in Dallas as advanced courses.

Mr. Specter. Have you been accepted in any college?

Mr. Rowland. Yes; several. Texas A. & M., Rice, SMU, Arlington.

Mr. Specter. Do you have plans to attend one of those colleges?

Mr. Rowland. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Which one do you plan to enter?

Mr. Rowland. Preferably Rice.

Mr. Specter. Do you have an entry date set?

Mr. Rowland. No; I am trying for a scholarship for it.

Mr. Specter. Have you been in the military service?

Mr. Rowland. No; I haven't.

Mr. Specter. What is the general condition of your health.

Mr. Rowland. Good.

Mr. Specter. What is the condition of your eyesight?

Mr. Rowland. Very good.

Mr. Specter. Do you wear glasses at any time?

Mr. Rowland. No.

Mr. Specter. When, most recently, have you had an eye test, if at all?

Mr. Rowland. About 7 months ago.

Mr. Specter. And you know the results of that test?

Mr. Rowland. Very good vision.

Mr. Specter. Do you know what classification the doctor placed on it?

Mr. Rowland. No; I don't remember it.

Mr. Specter. Do you recollect if it was 20–20?

Mr. Rowland. He said it was much better than that.

Mr. Specter. And what doctor examined your eyes?

Mr. Rowland. This was the firm of doctors Finn and Finn.

Mr. Specter. F-i-n-n and F-i-n-n?

Mr. Rowland. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Where are they located?

Mr. Rowland. The Fidelity Union Life Building in Dallas.

Mr. Specter. Approximately how long ago was that examination?

Mr. Rowland. About 6 months.

Mr. Specter. Going to the day of November 22, 1963, how were you occupied at that time, Mr. Rowland?

Mr. Rowland. I was attending classes in school part of the day, working part time as a pizzamaker in Pizza Inn.

Mr. Specter. Had you regularly scheduled classes on the morning of November 22, 1963?

Mr. Rowland. Yes. I had classes up until 11. I just had two classes on Friday.

Mr. Specter. And what school were you attending at that time?

Mr. Rowland. W. H. Adamson High.

Mr. Specter. How far is that from the intersection of Houston and Elm Streets in Dallas, approximately?

Mr. Rowland. It must have been about a mile and a half.

Mr. Specter. Will you describe for the Commission what you did on that morning, in a general way, up until approximately noon time?

Mr. Rowland. I went to my classes. My wife got out of school early. We went to town. I had to go to work at 4, so we were going downtown to do some shopping. We went early so we could see the President's motorcade.

Mr. Specter. What time did you arrive in town?

167 Mr. Rowland. We rode a bus from the school. We got to town approximately a quarter to 12.

Mr. Specter. What school was your wife attending at that time?

Mr. Rowland. The same: Adamson.

Mr. Specter. What time did her classes end?

Mr. Rowland. She got out at 11 also.

Mr. Specter. And what did you do from the time you arrived in town at approximately a quarter of 12 for the next 15 minutes?

Mr. Rowland. Trying to find a good vantage point. We walked about five or six blocks.

Mr. Specter. From where did you walk?

Mr. Rowland. We got off at the junction, at the intersection of Main and Houston, walked up toward Ervay, about four blocks, I would say up to Akard. We walked from Houston to Akard on Main, and then we walked back down Commerce and then over to the sheriffs or the county courthouse, there was a lesser crowd there.

Mr. Specter. Is that the reason you selected the spot you ultimately picked to watch the parade?

Mr. Rowland. Yes, there was no one in front of us, no one around that area.

Mr. Specter. I am going to show you a photograph, Mr. Rowland, which has already been identified as Commission Exhibit No. 347 and first ask you if you can identify what scene this represents.

Mr. Rowland. Yes; I can.

Mr. Specter. What scene is that?

Mr. Rowland. This is the triple underpass, this is the scene where the President was assassinated.

Mr. Specter. What is this plaza called in Dallas?

Mr. Rowland. I don't know exactly. It is just known as the triple underpass.

Mr. Specter. Is it known as Dealey Plaza to your knowledge?

Mr. Rowland. I have never heard it called that.

Mr. Specter. Can you point with your finger for me at the spot where you were standing as best you can recollect it?

Mr. Rowland. We were about in this area on this sidewalk of this building. I say approximately two-thirds of the distance between here and here in this direction.

Mr. Specter. All right.

I have a substitute photograph for you to mark. I am now showing you an identical scene on a photograph which has been heretofore marked as Commission Exhibit No. 354. Will you mark with an arrow as closely as possible to the point where you were standing?

Mr. Rowland. There is an elevator shaft below this second window on that building that comes through a sidewalk. I was about 5 feet to the left of it, about the third window or right here in this area.

Mr. Specter. Will you mark that a little more heavily, please?

Mr. Rowland. Yes.

(Witness marking.)

Mr. Specter. What time were you so positioned?

Mr. Rowland. We got there about 5 after 12.

Mr. Specter. Did your position move at any time during the course of the next half hour?

Mr. Rowland. Yes. We did move to this corner, there were too many people on this corner.

Mr. Specter. You are indicating back to the corner of Houston and Main?

Mr. Rowland. Yes. Houston and Main there were too many crowds so we came back to this street here, Commerce is that right; no, Elm and Main. We came back to Elm and Main and figured it wouldn't be a very good vantage point because of the crowd there so we went back to where we were.

Mr. Specter. Where were you standing at the time the President's motorcade passed by you?

Mr. Rowland. At that position.

(Witness marking.)

Mr. Specter. The position you have marked with a "V," inverted "V."

168 Will you mark with the letter "A" the point to which you had moved when you described it as being at Commerce which you corrected to Elm and Houston.

Mr. Rowland. It was this corner.

(Witness marking.)

Mr. Specter. Approximately what time did you move to the position you have marked "A"?

Mr. Rowland. About 10 after 12.

Mr. Specter. How long did you stay at position "A"?

Mr. Rowland. Momentarily, just long enough to look, maybe a minute.

Mr. Specter. To look at what?

Mr. Rowland. To look at the position itself. There was too much of a crowd in that area. When the President would come by they would be pushing or rushing in that area and it would be too crowded for us.

Mr. Specter. At that point you did what?

Mr. Rowland. Then we went back to where we were.

Mr. Specter. To position "V"?

Mr. Rowland. Yes, and we stayed there for a minute or so, walked to the corner of Main and Houston.

Mr. Specter. Mark Main and Houston with the letter "B," if you would, where you moved next.

(Witness marking.)

Mr. Rowland. Stayed there momentarily, less than a minute. There was quite a crowd there and we went back to where we were, our original position.

Mr. Specter. To position "V"?

Mr. Rowland. Yes.

Mr. Specter. What time would you say you got back to your position "V"?

Mr. Rowland. We got back there 14 after, I noticed the time on my watch, and the Hertz time clock I noticed was about a minute later.

Mr. Specter. Where was the Hertz time clock located?

Mr. Rowland. That was on top of the school depository building.

Mr. Specter. Was your watch synchronized with the Hertz up on top.

Mr. Rowland. Yes; I always set it by the same clock whenever I pass it. I pass it coming into town and I set my watch at that time.

Mr. Specter. Now, did you observe at any time the building which is depicted in Commission Exhibit No. 348?

Mr. Rowland. Yes. We were looking around it, my wife and I, amongst the crowd, the different areas, making note of the policemen on top of the underpass itself, in that area, and the security precautions that were being taken.

Mr. Specter. Mr. Chairman, I would like to show the witness the same photograph, but a different picture on an exhibit marked Commission Exhibit No. 356.

Mr. Rowland, I show you a picture marked Commission Exhibit No. 356 and ask you if you can identify what that represents?

Mr. Rowland. That is Houston, Elm running in front of this building. This is the school book depository building.

Mr. Specter. Were you familiar with that building prior to November 22, 1963?

Mr. Rowland. Yes; I have been in there on occasion.

Mr. Specter. You have been in the building?

Mr. Rowland. Yes, to purchase books.

Mr. Specter. When were you in the building most recently prior to November 22, 1963?

Mr. Rowland. Within the first week of November. This was to buy a physics notebook.

Mr. Specter. What part of the building were you in at that time?

Mr. Rowland. Just inside the door of the main lobby.

Mr. Specter. On the first floor?

Mr. Rowland. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Had you ever had occasion at any time to be on any floor other than the first floor?

Mr. Rowland. No.

Mr. Specter. While you were standing on Houston Street in the various169 positions which you have described, did you have occasion at any time to observe the Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mr. Rowland. Yes. When we returned to position "V" we stayed there, we began looking around. My wife and I were discussing the security precautions that were taken in view of the event when Mr. Stevenson was there.

Mr. Specter. Before you go on, let me ask you at which time was this on your return to position "V"?

Mr. Rowland. This was 12:15.

Mr. Specter. All right; proceed to tell us what you saw and heard at about that time?

Mr. Rowland. We were discussing, as I stated, the different security precautions, I mean it was a very important person who was coming and we were aware of the policemen around everywhere, and especially in positions where they would be able to watch crowds. We talked momentarily of the incidents with Mr. Stevenson, and the one before that with Mr. Johnson, and this being in mind we were more or less security conscious. We looked and at that time I noticed on the sixth floor of the building that there was a man back from the window, not hanging out the window.

He was standing and holding a rifle. This appeared to me to be a fairly high-powered rifle because of the scope and the relative proportion of the scope to the rifle, you can tell about what type of rifle it is. You can tell it isn't a .22, you know, and we thought momentarily that maybe we should tell someone but then the thought came to us that it is a security agent.

We had seen in the movies before where they have security men up in windows and places like that with rifles to watch the crowds, and we brushed it aside as that, at that time, and thought nothing else about it until after the event happened.

Mr. Specter. Now, by referring to the photograph on this Commission Exhibit No. 356, will you point to the window where you observed this man?

Mr. Rowland. This was very odd. There were—this picture was not taken immediately after that, I don't think, because there were several windows, there are pairs of windows, and there were several pairs where both windows were open fully and in each pair there was one or more persons hanging out the window.

Yet this was on the west corner of the building, the sixth floor, the first floor—second floor down from the top, the first was the arched, the larger windows, not the arch, but the larger windows, and this was the only pair of windows where both windows were completely open and no one was hanging out the windows, or next to the window.

It was this pair of windows here at that time.

Mr. Specter. All right.

Will you mark that pair of windows with a circle?

(Witness marking.)

Mr. Specter. What is your best recollection as to how far each of those windows were open?

Mr. Rowland. To the fullest extent that they could be opened.

Mr. Specter. What extent would that be?

Mr. Rowland. Being as I looked half frame windows, that would be halfway of the entire length of the window.

Mr. Specter. Is that the approximate status of those windows depicted here in Exhibit 356?

Mr. Rowland. Yes.

Mr. Specter. In which of those double windows did you see the man and rifle?

Mr. Rowland. It was through the window to my right.

Mr. Specter. Draw an arrow right into that window with the same black pencil please.

(Witness marking.)

Mr. Specter. How much, if any, or all of that rifle could you see?

Mr. Rowland. All of it.

Mr. Specter. You could see from the base of the stock down to the tip of the end of the rifle?

Mr. Rowland. Yes.

170 Mr. Specter. The barrel of the rifle?

The Chairman. Congressman Ford, will you excuse me for just a few minutes to run across the street to my office. You conduct during my absence.

Representative Ford. Will you proceed, Mr. Specter?

Mr. Specter. What is your best estimate of the distance between where you were standing and the man holding the rifle whom you have just described?

(The Chief Justice left the hearing room.)

Mr. Rowland. 150 feet approximately, very possibly more. I don't know for sure.

Mr. Specter. Are you very good at judging distances of that sort?

Mr. Rowland. Fairly good.

Mr. Specter. Have you had any experience or practice at judging such distances?

Mr. Rowland. Yes. Even in using the method in physics or, you know, elementary physics of looking at a position in two different views, you can tell its distance. I did that quite frequently. And the best I can recollect it was within 150 to 175 feet.

Mr. Specter. Can you describe the rifle with any more particularity than you already have?

Mr. Rowland. No. In proportion to the scope it appeared to me to be a .30-odd size 6, a deer rifle with a fairly large or powerful scope.

Mr. Specter. When you say, .30-odd-6, exactly what did you mean by that?

Mr. Rowland. That is a rifle that is used quite frequently for deer hunting. It is an import.

Mr. Specter. Do you own any rifles?

Mr. Rowland. No; my stepfather does.

Mr. Specter. Have you ever gone hunting deer with such a rifle?

Mr. Rowland. Yes; I have.

Mr. Specter. And is that a .30-odd-6 rifle that you have hunted deer with?

Mr. Rowland. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Is that a popular size of rifle in the Dallas, Tex., area?

Mr. Rowland. I don't know about Dallas. I do know in Oregon it is one of the most popular for deer hunting.

Mr. Specter. Was the rifle which you observed similar to, or perhaps identical with, .30-odd rifles which you have seen before?

Mr. Rowland. The best I could tell it was of that size.

Mr. Specter. Have you seen such .30-odd rifles before at close range which had telescopic sights?

Mr. Rowland. Yes; one my stepfather has has a very powerful scope on it.

Mr. Specter. And did this rifle appear similar to the one your stepfather owned?

Mr. Rowland. From my distance, I would say very similar or of similar manufacture.

Mr. Specter. In what manner was the rifle being held by the man whom you observed?

Mr. Rowland. The way he was standing it would have been in a position such as port arms in military terms.

Mr. Specter. When you say port arms you have positioned your left hand with the left elbow of your hand being about level with your shoulder and your right hand——

Mr. Rowland. Not quite level with my shoulder, and the right hand being lower on the trigger of the stock.

Mr. Specter. So the waist of the imaginary rifle you would be holding would cross your body at about a 45-degree angle.

Mr. Rowland. That is correct.

Mr. Specter. How long was the rifle held in that position?

Mr. Rowland. During the entire time that I saw him there.

Mr. Specter. Did you see him hold it in any other position?

Mr. Rowland. No, I didn't.

Mr. Specter. For example, was he standing at any time in a parade-rest position?

Mr. Rowland. No; not to my knowledge.

171 Mr. Specter. Describe, as best you can, the appearance of the individual whom you saw?

Mr. Rowland. He was rather slender in proportion to his size. I couldn't tell for sure whether he was tall and maybe, you know heavy, say 200 pounds, but tall whether he would be and slender or whether he was medium and slender, but in proportion to his size his build was slender.

Mr. Specter. Could you give us an estimate on his height?

Mr. Rowland. No; I couldn't. That is why I said I can't state what height he would be. He was just slender in build in proportion with his width. This is something I find myself doing all the time, comparing things in perspective.

Mr. Specter. Was he a white man or a Negro or what?

Mr. Rowland. Seemed, well, I can't state definitely from my position because it was more or less not fully light or bright in the room. He appeared to be fair complexioned, not fair, but light complexioned, but dark hair.

Mr. Specter. What race was he then?

Mr. Rowland. I would say either a light Latin or a Caucasian.

Mr. Specter. And were you able to observe any characteristics of his hair?

Mr. Rowland. No; except that it was dark, probably black.

Mr. Specter. Were you able to observe whether he had a full head of hair or any characteristic as to quantity of hair?

Mr. Rowland. It didn't appear as if he had a receding hairline but I know he didn't have it hanging on his shoulders. Probably a close cut from—you know it appeared to me it was either well-combed or close cut.

Mr. Specter. What, if anything, did you observe as to the clothes he was wearing?

Mr. Rowland. He had on a light shirt, a very light-colored shirt, white or a light blue or a color such as that. This was open at the collar. I think it was unbuttoned about halfway, and then he had a regular T-shirt, a polo shirt under this, at least this is what it appeared to be. He had on dark slacks or blue jeans, I couldn't tell from that. I didn't see but a small portion.

Mr. Specter. You say you only saw a small portion of what?

Mr. Rowland. Of his pants from his waist down.

Mr. Specter. Which half of the window was open, the bottom half or the top half?

Mr. Rowland. It was the bottom half.

Mr. Specter. And how much, if any, of his body was obscured by the window frame from that point down to the floor?

Mr. Rowland. From where I was standing I could see from his head to about 6 inches below his waist, below his belt.

Mr. Specter. Could you see as far as his knees?

Mr. Rowland. No.

Mr. Specter. And what is your best recollection as to how close to the window he was standing?

Mr. Rowland. He wasn't next to the window, but he wasn't very far back. I would say 3 to 5 feet back from the window.

Mr. Specter. How much of the rifle was separated from your line of vision by the window?

Mr. Rowland. The entire rifle was in my view.

Mr. Specter. In the open part of the window?

Mr. Rowland. Yes.

Mr. Specter. And how much of his body, if any, was in the open view where there was no window between your eyes and the object of his body?

Mr. Rowland. Approximately two-thirds of his body just below his waist.

Mr. Specter. Up to what point?

Mr. Rowland. Mid point between the waist and the knees, this is again in my proportion to his height that I make that judgment.

Mr. Specter. So from the waist, some point between his knees and his waist, you started to see him clear in the window?

Mr. Rowland. Yes.

Mr. Specter. And from that point how far up his body were you able to see without any obstruction of a window between you and him?

172 Mr. Rowland. To the top of his head. There was some space on top of that where I could see the wall behind him.

Mr. Specter. What is your best estimate of the space between the top of his head and the open window at the perspective you were observing?

Mr. Rowland. Two and a half, three feet, something on that—that is something very hard to ascertain. That would just be an estimation on my part.

Mr. Specter. Is there anything else you observed about his appearance or his clothing or the rifle which you haven't already told us about?

Representative Ford. Was he facing toward you directly?

Mr. Rowland. Yes.

Representative Ford. In other words, did you get a full view of his face and his chest and the front of him?

Mr. Rowland. He appeared to me as though he were looking out the window and watching the crowd in particular.

Representative Ford. Excuse me, go ahead.

Mr. Rowland. That is all right.

Representative Ford. Was he looking toward the corner of Houston and Main?

Mr. Rowland. No; I would say he was looking in the area or the general vicinity of where I was.

Representative Ford. And you were on the sidewalk on Houston in front of the building that you have indicated?

Mr. Rowland. Yes. Now, I can't—here again I wasn't close enough to see his eyes but from the position of his head he was looking in that general area. It could have been that maybe he was—his eyes were a little bit off perspective and he was watching that corner, I don't know.

Representative Ford. In what position did you say his hands were on the rifle?

Mr. Rowland. One hand was at what is called the gun stock of the rifle, just above the trigger, it was around the rifle. The other was at the other end of the rifle about 4 inches below the end of the stock.

Representative Ford. Was the rifle held above his waist?

Mr. Rowland. The majority of it was, just a small portion of butt below his waist.

Representative Ford. The butt or the end of the rifle, the barrel end?

Mr. Rowland. The butt, the stock end, was below his waist. The barrel being pointed in the air toward the ceiling or the wall next to him.

Representative Ford. I see. The stock was down and the barrel was up.

Mr. Rowland. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Were you able to form any opinion as to the age of that man?

Mr. Rowland. This is again just my estimation. He was—I think I remember telling my wife that he appeared in his early thirties. This could be obscured because of the distance, I mean.

Mr. Specter. Were you able to form any opinion as to the weight of the man in addition to the line of proportion which you have already described?

Mr. Rowland. I would say about 140 to 150 pounds.

Representative Ford. When did you tell your wife you thought he was in his thirties?

Mr. Rowland. Right after I noticed the man, I brought him to my wife's attention, and she was looking at something else at that time, we looked at that, and when we both looked back she wanted to see also, and he was gone from our vision.

Representative Ford. So she never saw him?

Mr. Rowland. My wife never saw him.

Representative Ford. Did you say at that time how old he was or how old you thought he was?

Mr. Rowland. I think I remarked to my wife that he appeared in his thirties, early thirties.

Mr. Specter. When, after you first observed him did you have a conversation about him with your wife?

Mr. Rowland. Right afterwards. There was—just before I observed him there was a police motorcycle parked just on the street, not in front of us, just a little past us, and the radio was on it giving the details of the motorcade, where it was positioned, and right after the time I noticed him and when my173 wife was pointing this other thing to me, I don't remember what that was, the dispatcher came on and gave the position of the motorcade as being on Cedar Springs. This would be in the area of Turtle Creek, down in that area.

I can't remember the street's name but I know where it is at. And this was the position of the motorcade and it was about 15 or 16 after 12.

Mr. Specter. Well, did you tell your wife about the presence of this man immediately after you saw him?

Mr. Rowland. Yes.

Mr. Specter. And what was the quality or condition of her eyes?

Mr. Rowland. She has nearsightedness and has to wear glasses.

Mr. Specter. Was she wearing glasses at the time?

Mr. Rowland. No, she wasn't.

Mr. Specter. Based on your knowledge of her eyesight, would it have been possible for her to have seen him considering your relative positions?

Mr. Rowland. Had he still been there she would have been able to acknowledge the figure with no description.

Mr. Specter. How long did you see him there in total point of time?

Mr. Rowland. It was all relatively brief, short time, 15 seconds, maybe 20. I was looking at the building, looking at the people hanging out of the building, I noticed him, my eye contact was at that position for 15 to 20 seconds. This is all relatively very short length of time.

Mr. Specter. Now——

Mr. Rowland. But a lot can happen in that much time.

Mr. Specter. When you saw him, you told her about him, and then did she look in the direction of the man?

Mr. Rowland. After she pointed something else out to me she looked in that direction.

Mr. Specter. Did you then look back toward the direction of, to the window where you had seen him?

Mr. Rowland. Yes; I even pointed to it with my wife.

Mr. Specter. Did you look back at the same time she looked back?

Mr. Rowland. Yes.

Mr. Specter. And when you looked back what, if anything, did you observe in the window?

Mr. Rowland. There was nothing there then.

Mr. Specter. Following that did you and she have any additional conversation about this man in the window?

Mr. Rowland. We talked about it momentarily, just for a few seconds that it was of most likelihood a security man, had a very good vantage point where he could watch the crowds, talked about the rifle, it looked like a very high-powered rifle.

Mr. Specter. Did you mention that to your wife?

Mr. Rowland. Yes; I did.

Mr. Specter. Have you described as fully as you can everything you discussed with your wife at that juncture?

Mr. Rowland. I think so.

Representative Ford. Was there anybody else standing close to you as you had this conversation with your wife?

Mr. Rowland. There was a policeman about as far as me to the flag.

Representative Ford. That is about how many feet, would you say?

Mr. Rowland. Twelve, thirteen feet.

Representative Ford. There was no one between you and the policeman in that line of vision?

Mr. Rowland. No.

Then there were three or four colored men just behind the elevator, and a couple on the elevator that had come up through the sidewalk. This was a distance of—this was on the opposite side of us about 15 feet, just a little further than the officer.

Representative Ford. There was no one closer to you and your wife than 10 to 15 feet?

Mr. Rowland. That is correct. That is one of the main reasons we selected that spot.

174 Representative Ford. Did it ever enter your mind that you should go and tell the policeman of this sight or this vision that you had seen?

Mr. Rowland. Really it didn't.

Representative Ford. It never entered your mind?

Mr. Rowland. I never dreamed of anything such as that. I mean, I must honestly say my opinion was based on movies I have seen, on the attempted assassination of Theodore Roosevelt where they had Secret Service men up in the building such as that with rifles watching the crowds, and another one concerned with attempted assassination of the other one, Franklin Roosevelt, and both of these had Secret Service men up in windows or on top of buildings with rifles, and this is how my opinion was based and why it didn't alarm me.

Perhaps if I had been older and had more experience in life it might have made a difference. It very well could have.

Mr. Specter. Mr. Rowland, did the man with the rifle have any distinctive facial appearance such as a mustache or a prominent scar, anything of that sort which you could observe?

Mr. Rowland. There was nothing dark on his face, no mustache. There could have been a scar if it hadn't been a dark scar. If it was, you know, a blotch or such as this, there was nothing very dark about the color of his face.

Mr. Specter. Mr. Rowland, will you recount as precisely and as specifically as you can, the exact conversation between you and your wife from the time you first noticed this man until your conversation about the man concluded, indicating what you said and what she said in language as closely as you can recollect it?

Mr. Rowland. That is a whopper.

I am almost sure I told her or asked her, did she want to see a Secret Service agent. She said, "Where," and I said, "In the building there," and at that time she told me to look—I remember what she was looking at. Right directly across from us in this plaza in front of the pond there was a colored boy that had an epileptic fit or something of this type right then, and she pointed this out to me and there were a couple of officers there and a few moments later they called an ambulance, this is what she told me to look at then, and we looked at this for a short period of time, and then I told her to look in the building, the second floor from the top and on that end, the two open windows, is I think what I said, and I said, "He is not there now."

I think that is what I said. She said, "What did he look like," and I told her just that—I gave her more or less a brief description of what he looked like, open collared shirt, light-colored shirt, and he had a rifle, I described the rifle in as much detail as I have to you to her.

Mr. Specter. You described the rifle to her in as much detail as you have to us?

Mr. Rowland. Yes.

And then she said something about wishing she could have seen him but he was probably somewhere else in another part of the building watching people now. Then we were discussing again, just preceding that we were discussing the event with Mr. Stevenson, this was about 2 weeks beforehand, this was fresh on our mind, and right after that we started discussing that it was a security man.

We were looking around, we became very security conscious. We noted that policemen, I think there were maybe 2, maybe 3 on the viaduct itself; some 20 or 30, I would say 20 to 25 policemen being in that immediate area.

Representative Ford. About what time, as you can best recollect, did this conversation with your wife take place?

Mr. Rowland. About 5 minutes until about 22 after. I think I again looked at my watch.

Representative Ford. After you and your wife looked up and saw that there was no one in the window, did you ever again look at the window?

Mr. Rowland. Yes; I did, constantly.

Representative Ford. And as you looked at the window subsequently did you ever see anything else in the window?

Mr. Rowland. No; not in that window, and I looked back every few seconds, 30 seconds, maybe twice a minute, occasionally trying to find him so I could point him out to my wife.

Something I would like to note is that the window that I have been told the175 shots were actually fired from, I did not see that, there was someone hanging out that window at that time.

Representative Ford. At what time was that?

Mr. Rowland. At the time I saw the man in the other window, I saw this man hanging out the window first. It was a colored man, I think.

Representative Ford. Is this the same window where you saw the man standing with the rifle?

Mr. Rowland. No; this was the one on the east end of the building, the one that they said the shots were fired from.

Representative Ford. I am not clear on this now. The window that you saw the man that you describe was on what end of the building?

Mr. Rowland. The west, southwest corner.

Representative Ford. And the man you saw hanging out from the window was at what corner?

Mr. Rowland. The east, southeast corner.

Representative Ford. Southeast corner. On the same floor?

Mr. Rowland. On the same floor.

Representative Ford. When did you notice him?

Mr. Rowland. This was before I noticed the other man with the rifle.

Representative Ford. I see. This was before you saw the man in the window with the rifle?

Mr. Rowland. Yes. My wife and I were both looking and making remarks that the people were hanging out the windows. I think the majority of them were colored people, some of them were hanging out the windows to their waist, such as this. We made several remarks to this fact, and then she started watching the colored boy, and I continued to look, and then I saw the man with the rifle.

Representative Ford. After 12:22 or thereabouts you indicated you periodically looked back at the window in the southwest corner where you had seen the man with the rifle. What happened as the motorcade came along?

Mr. Rowland. As the motorcade came along, there was quite a bit of excitement. I didn't look back from then. I was very interested in trying to see the President myself. I had seen him twice before but I was interested in seeing him again.

Representative Ford. Did you notice a sedan come by with any officials in it at the outset of the motorcade?

Mr. Rowland. The first car in the motorcade was, I think it was, a white or cream-colored Ford. This appeared to be full of detectives or such as this; rather husky men, large men.

I think there were four in this car.

Representative Ford. Was this an open or a closed car?

Mr. Rowland. This was a sedan, the doors were closed.

Representative Ford. What was the next car you noticed?

Mr. Rowland. The next car was the President's car.

Representative Ford. Did you notice again or did you look again during this period of time at the School Depository Building?

Mr. Rowland. No. From where we were standing the motorcade came down Main, and when it turned on Houston we watched the motorcade, my wife remarked at Jackie's clothing, Mrs. Kennedy, and we made a few remarks of her clothing and how she looked, her appearance in general, and we also discussed—we didn't immediately recognize Governor Connally and his wife being in the car, we were trying to figure out who that was.

Then the motorcade turned on Elm and was obscured from our vision by a crowd, and we were discussing the clothing of Mrs. Kennedy at that time. My wife likes clothes.

Representative Ford. You never again, after the motorcade once came into your view, looked back at the School Depository Building?

Mr. Rowland. I did after the shots were fired.

Mr. Specter. Had you finished telling us all about the conversation between you and your wife concerning this man?

Mr. Rowland. To the best of my recollection, yes.

Mr. Specter. All right.

176 You have described seeing someone in another window hanging out. Would you draw a circle and put an "A" beside the window where you say you saw someone hanging out. That is on Exhibit No. 356.

(Witness marking.)

Mr. Specter. At about what time was it that you observed someone hanging out of the window that you have marked as window "A"?

Mr. Rowland. Again about 12:15 just before I noticed the other man.

Mr. Specter. You have marked the double window there. Would you draw the arrow in the red pencil indicating specifically which window it was.

(Witness marking.)

Mr. Specter. Will you describe with as much particularity as you can what that man looked like?

Mr. Rowland. It seemed to me an elderly Negro, that is about all. I didn't pay very much attention to him.

Mr. Specter. At or about that time did you observe anyone else hanging out any window or observe any one through any window on the same floor where you have drawn the two circles on Exhibit 356?

Mr. Rowland. No; no one else on that floor.

Mr. Specter. You testified before that there were other windows where you had seen people hanging out, is that correct?

Mr. Rowland. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Would you tell us and indicate on the picture, Exhibit 356, to the best of your ability to recollect just which those windows were?

Mr. Rowland. There was either two or three people in this window.

Mr. Specter. Mark that with a "B" if you would, please.

(Witness marking.)

Mr. Rowland. Those pair of windows. I think this was all on that floor.

Here on this floor.

Mr. Specter. Indicating the second floor?

Mr. Rowland. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Circle the windows and mark it with a "C" if you will.

Mr. Rowland. I think it was this pair immediately over the door, and this pair.

Mr. Specter. Mark one "C" and one "D," if you will.

(Witness marking.)

Mr. Rowland. Here I know there were two Negro women, I think.

Mr. Specter. Indicating window "C." You say two Negro women?

Mr. Rowland. Yes.

Mr. Specter. And were those women each in one window, both in one window or what?

Mr. Rowland. They were one in each window. Then at the window "D" there was one, one window open.

Mr. Specter. Which was that, indicate that by an arrow, if you please.

(Witness marking.)

Mr. Rowland. The one on the west side, and this appeared to have two heads just inside the window, no one hanging out the window as with the others.

Mr. Specter. Did you observe anyone else hanging out the window?

Mr. Rowland. There was someone on the third floor. I think it was—wait a minute—yes, the third floor had three adjoining sets of windows that were open. They were all open to the fullest extent they would open.

Mr. Specter. Would you mark those "E," "F" and "G," please.

(Witness marking.)

Mr. Specter. Did you observe any people in those windows marked "E," "F," and "G"?

Mr. Rowland. Yes, and this pair, "E," both windows were open, and there appeared to be one man in the eastern window.

Mr. Specter. Which you have now marked with an arrow.

Mr. Rowland. Yes.

Mr. Specter. How about as to window marked "F"?

Mr. Rowland. Both windows were completely up, and there appeared to be several people in that window, four or five, a number that I don't remember, you know I couldn't see all of them.

177 Mr. Specter. How about window "G"?

Mr. Rowland. This again, both windows were open all of the way and I think there was one person in each window.

Mr. Specter. Did you observe any other people either through any other window or hanging out of any other window in the building?

Mr. Rowland. There was no one in the fourth floor to my knowledge, to my recollection.

There were what appeared to be secretaries, several young white girls or ladies, standing on the steps of the building in this general area.

Mr. Specter. Indicating the door of the building.

Mr. Rowland. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Yes.

Mr. Rowland. And there was no one else in there, except I think there was a policeman in front of the door on the sidewalk.

Mr. Specter. Have you described everybody you have observed, with respect to everybody hanging out the windows?

Mr. Rowland. To the best of my recollection.

Mr. Specter. Or anybody you could see through the windows?

Mr. Rowland. Yes.

Mr. Specter. As to the window which you have marked "A", that double pair of windows, which, if either or both, was open?

Mr. Rowland. The one on the eastern side was open and not all of the way it would open.

Mr. Specter. Is that the one you have marked with an arrow?

Mr. Rowland. Yes.

Mr. Specter. How much of that window was open?

Mr. Rowland. It was open about that far.

Mr. Specter. Indicating 2 feet?

Mr. Rowland. Two feet.

Mr. Specter. Two feet.

Mr. Rowland. Indicating 2 feet. It looked like the windows might open 3—two-thirds or three-fourths of the distance.

Mr. Specter. How about the other of the windows in the double-set marked "A," was that completely closed?

Mr. Rowland. Yes.

Mr. Specter. How about the windows in the group marked "B," was either of those windows open?

Mr. Rowland. They were both completely open.

Mr. Specter. Can you describe with any more particularity the people you saw in the window which you have marked "B"?

Mr. Rowland. There was a white man hanging out either "G" or "B," I do not remember which. He was the only white man, besides the man in these windows that I saw——

Mr. Specter. When you said "these windows" you mean the first window you marked with a black circle and a black arrow?

Mr. Rowland. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Is there anything else you can tell us about the people you saw in window "B"?

Mr. Rowland. I think to the best of my recollection there was either two or three people in window "B," and as I stated before, either "B" or "G" had a white man in the window. I do not remember which. I do remember it was one of the windows on the corner.

Mr. Specter. Do you recollect if the other people in window "B" were white or Negro?

Mr. Rowland. They were Negro.

Mr. Specter. Now, did you have any occasion to look back at window "A" from the time you saw the man whom you described as a Negro gentleman in that window until the President's procession passed by?

Mr. Rowland. Well, up until the time the procession was——

(Short recess.)

Representative Ford. I suggest, Mr. Specter, we resume the hearing.

Mr. Specter. Will you read the last question, Mr. Reporter, please.

178 (Question read.)

Mr. Specter. Would you like to start the question again or would you like the question repeated?

Mr. Rowland. I understand the question.

Let me see, the exact time I do not remember, but the man, the colored man, was in that window until the procession reached Commerce—I mean Main, and Ervay. I was looking back quite often, as I stated.

Mr. Specter. How do you fix the time that he was there until the procession reached the intersection of Commerce and Ervay?

Mr. Rowland. The police motorcycle was almost in front of me with the speaker on very loud, giving the relative position about every 15 or 20 seconds of the motorcade, and this is how I was able to note that.

Mr. Specter. Were you observing the window which you marked "A" at the time he departed?

Mr. Rowland. No, I didn't. I just know, I was looking at the crowd around, and then I glanced back up again, and neither did I see the man with the rifle nor did I see him. The colored man went away.

Mr. Specter. How long was that after you first noticed the colored man in the window "A"?

Mr. Rowland. Fifteen minutes.

Mr. Specter. Had you looked back at window "A" at any time during that 15 minute interval?

Mr. Rowland. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Had you seen anybody in window "A" during that time?

Mr. Rowland. The colored man was that——

Mr. Specter. So how many times did you notice him altogether?

Mr. Rowland. Several. I think I looked back about two, maybe three times a minute, an average. I was, you know, trying to find the man with the rifle to point him out to my wife. I noticed the colored man in that window. I looked at practically every window in the building but I didn't look at anything with the detail to see what I was looking for.

Mr. Specter. Over how long a time span did you observe the Negro man to be in the window marked "A"?

Mr. Rowland. He was there before I noticed the man with the rifle and approximately 12:30 or when the motorcade was at Main and Ervay he was gone when I looked back and I had looked up there about 30 seconds before or a minute before.

Mr. Specter. How long after you heard the motorcade was at Main and Ervay did the motorcade pass by where you were?

Mr. Rowland. Another 5 minutes.

Mr. Specter. So that you observed this colored man on the window you have marked "A" within 5 minutes prior to the time the motorcade passed in front of you?

Mr. Rowland. Approximately 5 minutes prior to the time the motorcade came, he wasn't there. About 30 seconds or a minute prior to that time he was there.

Mr. Specter. A few moments ago in your testimony you stated that in observing policemen in the area you had observed some officers on the overpass?

Mr. Rowland. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Approximately how far were you from the overpass at that time?

Mr. Rowland. 125 yards approximately.

Mr. Specter. Were you able to observe with clarity the individuals who were standing on the overpass?

Mr. Rowland. Not with detailed distinction. I do remember there were three women there, two or three men, a couple of boys, and two officers on the overpass itself.

Mr. Specter. How did you identify the officers as being policemen?

Mr. Rowland. They were uniformed officers.

Mr. Specter. What kind of uniforms were they wearing?

Mr. Rowland. Blue; I think trimmed in gold, uniforms.

Mr. Specter. Are those the regular uniforms worn by the Dallas police?

Mr. Rowland. Yes.

179 Mr. Specter. Where were you standing at the time you observed the people on the overpass whom you have just described?

Mr. Rowland. Position "B."

Mr. Specter. At about what time was it when you observed those individuals?

Mr. Rowland. This was between the time between 12:15 and 12:30. I think I looked more than once.

Mr. Specter. How many times did you look?

Mr. Rowland. I don't know really. I was more or less scanning the crowd.

Mr. Specter. Did the individuals present on the triple overpass change at the various times when you looked in that direction?

Mr. Rowland. I don't think so. I don't think anyone went off who was up there or anyone else went on.

Mr. Specter. Will you now relate what occurred as the Presidential motorcade passed by you?

Mr. Rowland. Well, the car turned the corner at Houston and Main. Everyone was rushing, pressing the cars, trying to get closer. There were quite a few people, you know, trying to run alongside of the car such as this; officers were trying to prevent this. The car turned—we had more or less a long period of time that they were within our sight considering some of the other people.

The car went down Houston, again turned on Elm, and it was proceeding down Elm when we heard the first of the reports. This I passed off as a backfire, so did practically everyone in the area because gobs of people, when I say gobs, I mean almost everyone in the vicinity, started laughing that couldn't see the motorcade. The motorcade was obscured from our vision by the crowd.

Mr. Specter. What would the occasion be for laughter on the sound of a backfire?

Mr. Rowland. I don't know. A lot of people laughed. I don't know. But a lot of people laughed, chuckled, such as this. Then approximately 5 seconds, 5 or 6 seconds, the second report was heard, 2 seconds the third report. After the second report, I knew what it was, and——

Mr. Specter. What was it?

Mr. Rowland. I knew that it was a gun firing.

Mr. Specter. How did you know that?

Mr. Rowland. I have been around guns quite a bit in my lifetime.

Mr. Specter. Was the sound of the fire different from the first and second sounds you described?

Mr. Rowland. No, that is just it. It did not sound as though there was any return fire in that sense.

Mr. Specter. What do you mean by return fire?

Mr. Rowland. That anyone fired back. You know, anyone in the procession such as our detectives or Secret Service men fired back at anything else. It gave the report of a rifle which most of the Secret Service men don't carry in a holster although I am sure they had some in the cars but the following two shots were the same report being of the same intensity. I state, because from a different position I know that the same rifle is not going to make the same sound in two different positions especially in a position such as it was, because of the ricocheting of sound and echo effects.

Mr. Specter. What is your basis for saying that, Mr. Rowland, that the rifle would not make the same sound in two different positions?

Mr. Rowland. This is due to a long study of sound and study of echo effects.

Mr. Specter. When had you conducted that study?

Mr. Rowland. In physics in the past 3 years.

Mr. Specter. Have you read any special books on that subject?

Mr. Rowland. Quite a few.

Mr. Specter. Do you recollect any of the titles and authors?

Mr. Rowland. No; I do not.

Mr. Specter. Did you take any special courses which would give you insight into that subject matter?

Mr. Rowland. This was more or less on my own initiative. The instructor gave me help and aided me when I requested this during my off periods of class.

180 Mr. Specter. What instructor was that?

Mr. Rowland. His name was Foster.

Mr. Specter. Do you recall his first name?

Mr. Rowland. Sam.

Mr. Specter. And at what school does he teach?

Mr. Rowland. He teaches at Crozier Tech, Downtown Technical High School.

Mr. Specter. Is he still there?

Mr. Rowland. To my knowledge.

Mr. Specter. How recently did you have a course with him?

Mr. Rowland. Last year, last school year.

Mr. Specter. Can you describe the second sound by comparison with the first sound which you have described as being similar to a backfire?

Mr. Rowland. The second to my recollection was identical or as closely as could be.

Mr. Specter. How about the third shot?

Mr. Rowland. The same.

Mr. Specter. Sounded the same to you?

Mr. Rowland. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Did you have any impression or reaction as to the point of origin when you heard the first noise?

Mr. Rowland. Well, I began looking, I didn't look at the building mainly, and as practically any of the police officers that were there then will tell you, the echo effect was such that it sounded like it came from the railroad yards. That is where I looked, that is where all the policemen, everyone, converged on the railroads.

Mr. Specter. When you say railroad yards, what area are you referring to? Identify it on Commission Exhibit No. 354, for example?

Mr. Rowland. In this area in here.

Now most of the officers converged on this area——

Mr. Specter. When you say "in here," I will get a black pencil here and see if we can draw a circle around the area where you have described the echo effect?

Mr. Rowland. The echo effect felt as though it came from this general vicinity.

Mr. Specter. Mark that with the letter "C" in the center of your circle.

(Witness marking.)

Mr. Specter. Now, as to the second shot, did you have any impression as to the point of origin or source?

Mr. Rowland. The same point or very close to it.

Mr. Specter. And how about the third shot?

Mr. Rowland. Very close to the same position.

Mr. Specter. Where did you look, if you recall, after you heard the first shot, in what direction?

Mr. Rowland. We were standing here at position "B." At the sound of the second report, I proceeded across the street. My wife was very anxious to find out what was going on. I proceeded to cross the street like this.

Mr. Specter. Indicating you were—she was pulling you ahead?

Mr. Rowland. Yes. She was very anxious to find out what was going on.

Mr. Specter. That was at the sound of the second report?

Mr. Rowland. Yes, it was.

Mr. Specter. And will you mark with this black pencil, with the letter "D," where you went to, as she pulled you across the street?

Mr. Rowland. We crossed the street in this area, proceeded down the sidewalk, around here, there was quite a bit of crowd, people were running.

Mr. Specter. Where were you at the time that you heard the second report?

Mr. Rowland. At the second report we were approximately at the curb, out from the curb, we were off the sidewalk.

Mr. Specter. At point "V"?

Mr. Rowland. Yes.

Mr. Specter. How about the third shot, where were you then?

Mr. Rowland. At the third shot I was in this vicinity halfway to where we crossed the street to the end of the block.

181 Mr. Specter. Would you indicate with the letter "D" where you were at the time of the third shot?

(Witness marking.)

Mr. Specter. Where did you look when you heard the third report?

Mr. Rowland. Well, we were trying to actually see the President's car, that is what my wife was trying to do, and then I decided I might as well give in to her.

Mr. Specter. After the shots occurred, did you ever look back at the Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mr. Rowland. No; I did not. In fact, I went over toward the scene of the railroad yards myself.

Mr. Specter. Why did you not look back at the Texas School Book Depository Building in view of the fact that you had seen a man with a rifle up there earlier in the day?

Mr. Rowland. I don't remember. It was mostly due to the confusion, and then the fact that it sounded like it came from this area "C," and that all the officers, enforcement officers, were converging on that area, and I just didn't pay any attention to it at that time.

Mr. Specter. How many officers were converging on that area, to the best of your ability to recollect and estimate?

Mr. Rowland. I think it would be a very good estimation of 50, maybe more.

Mr. Specter. Do you know how fast the President's automobile was driving as it proceeded in front of you when you were standing at position "B"?

Mr. Rowland. Very slow pace, 5, 10 miles an hour.

Mr. Specter. When, if at all, did you first report what you had observed in the Texas School Book Depository Building about the man with the rifle to anyone in an official position?

Mr. Rowland. That was approximately 15 minutes after the third report that I went to an officer, he was a plainclothesman who was there combing the area, close to position "C," looking for footprints and such as this, some lady said someone jumped off one of the colonnades and started running, there was an officer looking in this area for footprints and such as this.

Mr. Specter. Was that lady ever identified to you?

Mr. Rowland. No; I do not remember his name. He introduced himself and showed me his ID.

Mr. Specter. I mean the lady you talked about.

Mr. Rowland. No; I don't.

Mr. Specter. Now as to the officer to whom you made a report, was he a State, City or Federal official, if you know?

Mr. Rowland. It was a Dallas detective.

Mr. Specter. And did you give him a statement or what procedure did he follow?

Mr. Rowland. It happened such as this: He was looking in this area for footprints or any visible marks. I started looking around also. I found a fountain pen that someone had probably dropped during the confusion or fell out of their pocket when they fell on the ground or such. I picked it up and handed it to him. I had on gloves, I wasn't to mess up the fingerprints because it very possibly could have fallen out of the pocket of the man who supposedly had jumped down.

Mr. Specter. You were wearing gloves on that day?

Mr. Rowland. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Was it a chilly day?

Mr. Rowland. The sun was shining, it was a fair day but the wind was blowing and it was breezy.

Mr. Specter. Was it cold enough to have gloves?

Mr. Rowland. Yes; I had on my overcoat and my wife had a fairly heavy coat.

Mr. Specter. Proceed, and tell us what you did.

Mr. Rowland. I handed this pen to the officer and I started thinking and I went to him and told him again just before the motorcade came I saw a man in the building with a rifle, and he immediately took me to Sheriff Decker which, in turn, asked two other deputies to take me to his office. We went there to his office. There was quite a few reporters around, such as this.182 They took my wife and I to a back room and shut us off completely from the reporters and everyone. There was no one in that room for 4 hours but this sheriff and a FBI agent, Agent Sorrels, and a stenographer, and I think another lady and a man that had seen another man carrying a rifle in a case on the other end of town earlier prior to this time.

Mr. Specter. Are you sure there was a court reporter present?

Mr. Rowland. It was one of the secretaries from the office of the sheriff, stenographer who was taking, using an electric typewriter every time.

Mr. Specter. Was she taking down in shorthand——

Mr. Rowland. Yes.

Mr. Specter. As you could observe——

Mr. Rowland. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Each word that you were saying?

Mr. Rowland. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Did she have any sort of a machine, such as a stenograph, as the gentleman who is serving as court reporter has?

Mr. Rowland. No; she took it down in shorthand and retyped it on an electric typewriter that she brought into the room.

Mr. Specter. Did she type up what you had said?

Mr. Rowland. Yes; typed up three or four copies and then I signed it at that time.

Mr. Specter. I now show you a photostatic copy of what purports to be an affidavit which you gave to the Sheriff's Department of the County of Dallas, Tex., on November 22, 1963, and has been marked as Commission Exhibit No. 357. Would you take a look at that, take your time, of course, and tell us whether or not that is the affidavit which you took on the occasion which you have just related?

Mr. Rowland. Yes. In fact, at this time I also noted that my wife dragged me across the street.

Mr. Specter. Just one detail on that statement: There is a reference here to the man holding the rifle being in a position which you describe as "a parade-rest sort of position." That appears——

Mr. Rowland. It does appear in there?

Mr. Specter. Eighteen lines down.

Mr. Rowland. Yes; I see it. It wasn't a parade-rest position. It was a port-arms position. I never noticed that in there before. There were—actually, I will say this, I said what I had to say. The FBI agent reworded it, and she took it down.

Now this happened; it wasn't my words verbatim, it was reworded.

Mr. Specter. Did you ever use the words "parade-rest" position?

Mr. Rowland. Not to my recollection.

Mr. Specter. So it is just an error in transcription which you did not notice when you signed it.

(At this point, Chief Justice Warren entered the hearing room.)

Is there any other aspect of the affidavit which you gave, which you have just observed, which is at variance with your current recollection of what you saw and heard on that date?

Mr. Rowland. Here it states we were at the west entrance of the sheriff's office, that is just a general approximation, we were 25 feet from there, in fact.

Mr. Specter. Are there any other portions of it which vary from your current recollection?

Mr. Rowland. I don't remember saying definitely that he was back about 15 feet. In fact, I think I said, as I said now, 3 to 5 feet, because from my point of view if he was back 15 feet I couldn't have even seen him.

Mr. Specter. Are there any other parts of the affidavit which vary from your current recollection?

Mr. Rowland. The actual time between the reports I would say now, after having had time to consider the 6 seconds between the first and second report and two between the second and third. It is very fast for a bolt-loading rifle.

183 Mr. Specter. Do you recall whether or not the statement is accurate in that you told the police officials at that time that there was a time span of 8 seconds between the first and second shots and a time span of 3 seconds between the second and third shots?

Mr. Rowland. I think I did tell them that, yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. And with respect to the facts which appear in the statement that you said the man was standing about 15 feet back from the windows, did you actually tell them that when you made the statement, or is that an error of transcription?

Mr. Rowland. I don't think I said that.

Mr. Specter. Now are there any other points where the affidavit is at variance from your current recollection?

Mr. Rowland. The time that it states here, we arrived in downtown Dallas at approximately 12:10. Actually we arrived before 12 but we took the position that we have, approximately 12:10, that position "V" on this other Exhibit 354.

Mr. Specter. Are there any other variances between your current recollection and this statement?

Mr. Rowland. I do not think so.

Mr. Specter. Did you tell the police officials at the time you made this statement that there was a Negro gentleman in the window on the southwest corner of the Texas School Book Depository Building which you have marked with a circle "A"—pardon me, southeast?

Mr. Rowland. At that time, no. However, the next day on Saturday there were a pair of FBI officers, agents out at my home, and they took another handwritten statement from me which I signed again, and this was basically the same. At that time I told them I did see the Negro man there and they told me it didn't have any bearing or such on the case right then. In fact, they just the same as told me to forget it now.

Mr. Specter. Mr. Reporter, will you please repeat that last answer for us?

(Answer read.)

Mr. Specter. I am now handing you a document which I have marked as Commission Exhibit No. 358, which purports to be a reproduction of a statement which was purportedly given by you to the FBI, two agents of that Bureau.

Will you take a look at that and tell us if that is the statement which you gave to the FBI to which you just referred?

Mr. Rowland. Again, I have a variance of time and a variance of distance that he was from the window.

Mr. Specter. Before you direct your attention to those factors, Mr. Rowland, are you able to tell us whether or not this is the statement which you gave to the FBI?

Mr. Rowland. Yes. My wife was with me when I gave the statement.

Mr. Specter. And without looking at the statement which, may the record show, you are not now doing, do you recollect the names of the FBI, don't look there, just tell me if you can recollect without seeing their names on the statement?

Mr. Rowland. No, sir; I talked to seven different pairs of FBI agents and I don't remember their names.

Mr. Specter. Seven different pairs?

Mr. Rowland. Yes, sir; I had—this is only one of the statements. They came to my home or where I worked and took three more besides this one. There were four handwritten statements that I signed.

Mr. Specter. Before getting the details on those, tell me in what respect, if any, the statement which we have identified as Commission Exhibit No. 358 differs from what you told the FBI agents at that time?

Mr. Rowland. I do not think it differs.

Mr. Specter. Then that statement accurately reflects what you said at that time?

Mr. Rowland. Yes; I am sure it does.

Mr. Specter. Now, in what respects, if any, does that statement vary from your current recollection about the facts which are contained therein?

184 Mr. Rowland. The time factor, the time that we arrived in town. Here again it states 12:10. Now this is the time that we arrived at the position that we stayed at, not the time we arrived in town, and the distance the man was back from the window. Here it states 12 to 15 feet. I do not remember saying that although I very well could have. Everything was confusing.

Mr. Specter. But what is your current recollection on the distance that the man was back from the window?

Mr. Rowland. Three to four, five feet, somewhere in that neighborhood. He wasn't very far. Far enough for the sunlight to hit him and at the angle the sun was that wouldn't be very far.

Mr. Specter. Now noticing that the date on that statement is November 24, 1963, does that appear to you to be the date when that statement was taken, or was it taken on the 23d, the day after the assassination?

Mr. Rowland. It was Saturday morning, the 24th.

Mr. Specter. On what day was the assassination?

Mr. Rowland. It was Thursday, wasn't it?

Mr. Specter. No; the assassination occurred on Friday.

Mr. Rowland. I am sorry, that is right. It is so confused in this.

Mr. Specter. Well, was the statement taken the second day after the assassination or the morning of the first day after the assassination?

Mr. Rowland. No; it was taken on Saturday morning before I went to work because on Sunday there was another statement taken from me at my job where I was working. This occurred right after Oswald was shot himself.

Mr. Specter. Well, are you able to identify that statement which we have marked Exhibit 358, as the statement taken on Saturday, the 23d, as distinguished from the statement taken on Sunday, the 24th of November?

Mr. Rowland. Yes.

Mr. Specter. How can you be certain of that, Mr. Rowland?

Mr. Rowland. The one on Sunday, this particular one, I do remember the agent used a legal pad. He did have three pages of it handwritten. I made corrections on this in different parts of it. The one on Sunday was not a legal pad. It was a steno pad and it, in fact, covered a page and a half, I think, and it was concerned with mainly could I identify the man that I saw, his description.

Mr. Specter. Now, at the time you made the Saturday statement, which you say was transcribed and appears as Exhibit 358, did you at that time tell the interviewing FBI agents about the colored gentleman who you testified was in the window which you marked with an "A"?

Mr. Rowland. Yes; I did.

Mr. Specter. Did you ask them at that time to include the information in the statement which they took from you?

Mr. Rowland. No. I think I told them about it after the statement, as an afterthought, an afterthought came up, it came into my mind. I also told the agents that took a statement from me on Sunday. They didn't seem very interested, so I just forgot about it for a while.

Mr. Specter. Was that information included in the written portion of the statement which was taken from you on Sunday?

Mr. Rowland. No, it wasn't. It shouldn't but the agent deleted it though himself, I mean I included it in what I gave.

Mr. Specter. When you say deleted it, did he strike it out after putting it in, or did he omit it in the transcription?

Mr. Rowland. Omitted it.

Senator Cooper. I think you said a while ago that when you told the FBI agents on Saturday that you had seen this Negro man in the window, that they indicated to you that they weren't interested in it at all. What did they say which gave you that impression?

Mr. Rowland. I don't remember exactly what was said. The context was again the agents were trying to find out if I could positively identify the man that I saw. They were concerned mainly with this, and I brought up to them about the Negro man after I had signed the statement, and at that time he just told me that they were just trying to find out about or if anyone185 could identify the man who was up there. They just didn't seem interested at all. They didn't pursue the point. They didn't take it down in the notation as such.

Mr. Specter. It was more of the fact that they didn't pursue it, didn't include it?

Mr. Rowland. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Or that they said something which led you to believe they were not interested?

Mr. Rowland. It was just the fact they didn't pursue it. I mean, I just mentioned that I saw him in that window. They didn't ask me, you know, if was this at the same time or such. They just didn't seem very interested in that at all.

Mr. Wright. By man who was up there you mean man with the rifle?

Mr. Rowland. They were interested in the man with the rifle, and finding out if anyone could identify him. The other man was the colored man in the other window.

Representative Ford. A minute ago you indicated that you could see the man in the window with the rifle because of the light conditions, I think you referred to the sun shining in that direction toward the building. Was the sun bright, do you recall that at all?

Mr. Rowland. Yes; the sun was out, somewhat bright. I didn't have any sunglasses on at that time because I had broken them the week before, and I hadn't gotten any new ones. The sun was shining in from what I could tell he was standing where I seen him through the window on my right. This would be the east window of the pair. It appeared as though the sun were shining in through either a window on the other side of the building, on the west side of the building, or possibly the western pair, one of the pair. This sun was—that hit him about from the shoulders down as far as I could see, that is why I was able to tell the rifle was of the type or such that it was.

Representative Ford. As you faced the window, as you faced the building, the sun was shining over which shoulder, to your left or your right shoulder?

Mr. Rowland. As I faced the building the sun was shining—well, I would have been facing the building if the building were in this direction more or less this way and the sun would have been shining from this area.

Representative Ford. Over your left shoulder?

Mr. Rowland. Yes; forward.

Representative Ford. That is all.

Mr. Specter. Were you able to identify the man whom you saw in the window with the rifle for the FBI agents?

Mr. Rowland. No.

Mr. Specter. Did they have pictures with them at that time?

Mr. Rowland. I have seen three pictures of Lee Harvey Oswald, two of them in the paper. They had a morning newspaper was all they had. It wasn't a very good picture, and I couldn't tell. I didn't know, I wasn't going to say because I didn't, I mean. I just couldn't identify him. I wouldn't be—I had already resigned myself not to be given that task, because I couldn't definitely say any one man was that man.

Mr. Specter. And what was the basis of your concluding, as you put it, that you resigned yourself to that task?

Mr. Rowland. This was because I just didn't have a good enough look at his face.

Mr. Specter. Was that your conclusion at this moment that you are unable to identify, with precision and certainty, the man whom you saw holding the rifle in the window of the Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mr. Rowland. Yes; that is true.

Mr. Specter. Do you believe that you could identify the Negro gentleman in window "A" whom you testified you saw?

Mr. Rowland. I would have to say perhaps. I can't say for sure.

Mr. Specter. A moment ago you testified that you gave statements to seven different pairs of FBI agents. Have you already testified about three of those occasions, or, stated differently, start at the beginning and tell us, as best you186 can recollect, what were those occasions, when they occurred, where you were when you had those meetings with the seven different pairs of agents.

Mr. Rowland. The first statement I gave was in the sheriff's office on that date.

Mr. Specter. Were there two FBI agents present?

Mr. Rowland. I think there were.

Mr. Specter. And do you recollect their names?

Mr. Rowland. No, I do not.

Mr. Specter. When was the second occasion?

Mr. Rowland. The Saturday morning.

Mr. Specter. Where was that statement given?

Mr. Rowland. That was in the agent's car in front of my mother-in-law's house.

Mr. Specter. Do you recollect the identities of those FBI agents?

Mr. Rowland. No, I do not.

Mr. Specter. That is the statement you have identified as being reproduced in Commission Exhibit 358?

Mr. Rowland. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Now, when was the third statement obtained?

Mr. Rowland. It was Sunday morning, the following day, November 25.

Mr. Specter. Where was that statement obtained?

Mr. Rowland. This was at my place of employment at the Pizza Inn.

Mr. Specter. Now, Sunday after the assassination would have been the 24th.

Mr. Rowland. Yes; that is right, I am sorry, sir.

Mr. Specter. Are you certain of the day of the week, however?

Mr. Rowland. Yes; I am certain of that because I went to work at noon on Sunday and they were there when I got to work, they were waiting on me.

Mr. Specter. That is the statement which you described as having been taken on a stenopad?

Mr. Rowland. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Did you sign that statement?

Mr. Rowland. Yes; I did. This was in the presence of my wife because she was there.

Mr. Specter. Do you recollect the identity of those FBI agents?

Mr. Rowland. No; I do not, sir.

Mr. Specter. When was the fourth statement taken?

Mr. Rowland. The fourth was Tuesday night of that week.

Mr. Specter. Of the following week?

Mr. Rowland. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Where was that statement taken?

Mr. Rowland. This was at my mother-in-law's house, and——

Mr. Specter. Was that reduced to writing?

Mr. Rowland. That was merely one paragraph. They were concerned with identification of the man that I saw.

Mr. Specter. What did you tell them essentially at that time?

Mr. Rowland. The description and that I could not positively identify him.

Mr. Specter. Did you sign a statement for them at that time?

Mr. Rowland. Yes; I did.

Mr. Specter. Do you know the identity of those FBI agents?

Mr. Rowland. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. Specter. Up to this point were any of the FBI agents the same who had interviewed you and taken statements from you?

Mr. Rowland. No, sir.

Mr. Specter. All different?

Mr. Rowland. Yes.

Mr. Specter. When did the fifth occasion take place when you were interviewed by the FBI?

Mr. Rowland. This was again where I worked. This was, it was not a formal written statement. They just took notes on what I said, had me recount that entire thing to the best of my knowledge.

Mr. Specter. When did this occur, the fifth one?

Mr. Rowland. It was on the following Friday.

Mr. Specter. About what time of the day or night was it?

187 Mr. Rowland. About 8:30 p.m.

Mr. Specter. At the Pizza Inn?

Mr. Rowland. Yes; Dallas time.

Mr. Specter. And do you recall the identities of those FBI agents?

Mr. Rowland. No; I don't.

Mr. Specter. Were they the same as any who had ever interviewed you before?

Mr. Rowland. No, sir; none of them are the same.

Mr. Specter. When was the sixth occasion when you were interviewed by the FBI?

Mr. Rowland. It was again on Sunday.

Mr. Specter. This would have been November—it would have been December 1st?

Mr. Rowland. I don't remember that date but it was——

Mr. Specter. The second Sunday after the assassination?

Mr. Rowland. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Where was the sixth interview conducted?

Mr. Rowland. This was at the Pizza Inn.

Mr. Specter. About what time of the day or night was that?

Mr. Rowland. About 1 o'clock. This was again right after I came to work.

Mr. Specter. Was the statement taken from you at that time reduced to writing?

Mr. Rowland. It was again informal, just taking notes on my statement, had me recount what I had told the other agents.

Mr. Specter. What were they interested in specifically at that time if you recall?

Mr. Rowland. They just wanted me to recount everything that I could recall.

Mr. Specter. Do you know the identity of those agents?

Mr. Rowland. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. Specter. Were they again different agents?

Mr. Rowland. Yes; they were.

Mr. Specter. From all those you had seen before?

Mr. Rowland. Yes.

Mr. Specter. When had you given the seventh statement to the FBI?

Mr. Rowland. The last statement I gave I think it was to one FBI agent and a Secret Service Agent.

Mr. Specter. When did that occur?

Mr. Rowland. That was either Tuesday or Wednesday of the week. I do not remember which.

Mr. Specter. On the week following the Sunday when you gave the sixth statement?

Mr. Rowland. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Do you recall the identities of those men?

Mr. Rowland. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. Specter. Had you ever seen either before?

Mr. Rowland. No, sir; I hadn't.

Mr. Specter. Did they reduce your statement to writing?

Mr. Rowland. No, sir; they just had me recount everything again.

Mr. Specter. In addition to the times you have already stated, have you ever been interviewed by the FBI on any other occasion?

Mr. Rowland. No, sir.

Mr. Specter. Have you ever been interviewed by the Secret Service on any other occasion?

Mr. Rowland. The afternoon of the 22d and the seventh time was the only two times of the Secret Service.

Mr. Specter. There was a Secret Service agent present in the sheriff's office?

Mr. Rowland. Yes; he was Agent Sorrels.

Mr. Specter. When you gave the affidavit which we have identified as Commission Exhibit 357?

Mr. Rowland. Yes.

Mr. Specter. In addition to the times you have mentioned, have you ever been interviewed by any agent or representative of the Federal Government?

188 Mr. Rowland. No, sir; I have not.

Mr. Specter. Have you been interviewed by any other agent or representative of the State Government of Texas?

Mr. Rowland. No, sir.

Mr. Specter. Now, on any of the other occasions, other than those you testified about, did you mention seeing the Negro gentleman in the window which we have circled with the "A"?

Mr. Rowland. No, sir.

Mr. Specter. Mr. Rowland, what was the quality of your grades in high school?

Mr. Rowland. Well, up until my senior year they were 4.0 straight A's, in my senior year I got a couple of B's.

Mr. Specter. Do you know what your IQ or intelligence quotient is?

Mr. Rowland. 147.

Mr. Specter. Do you know when you were tested for that?

Mr. Rowland. In 1963; in May.

Mr. Specter. Mr. Rowland, a couple of other questions.

Are you able to give us any other type of a description of the Negro gentleman whom you observed in the window we marked "A" with respect to height, weight, age?

Mr. Rowland. He was very thin, an elderly gentleman, bald or practically bald, very thin hair if he wasn't bald. Had on a plaid shirt. I think it was red and green, very bright color, that is why I remember it.

Mr. Specter. Can you give us an estimate as to age?

Mr. Rowland. Fifty; possibly 55 or 60.

Mr. Specter. Can you give us an estimate as to height?

Mr. Rowland. 5'8", 5'10", in that neighborhood. He was very slender, very thin.

Mr. Specter. Can you give us a more definite description as to complexion?

Mr. Rowland. Very dark or fairly dark, not real dark compared to some Negroes, but fairly dark. Seemed like his face was either—I can't recall detail but it was either very wrinkled or marked in some way.

Mr. Specter. Shortly after the assassination and before these interviews that you described were completed, Mr. Rowland, had you learned or heard that the shots were supposed to have come out of the window which we have marked with the "A"?

Mr. Rowland. No, sir. I did not know that, in fact until Saturday when I read the paper.

Mr. Specter. Which Saturday is that?

Mr. Rowland. The following Saturday.

Mr. Specter. Would that be the second day, the day after the assassination?

Mr. Rowland. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Well, knowing that, at that time, did you attach any particular significance to the presence of the Negro gentleman, whom you have described, that you saw in window "A"?

Mr. Rowland. Yes; that is why I brought it to the attention of the FBI agents who interviewed me that day. This was as an afterthought because I did not think of it firsthand. But I did bring it to their attention before they left, and they——

Mr. Specter. That was at the interview on the Saturday morning November 23?

Mr. Rowland. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Did you think it of sufficient significance to bring it to the attention of any of the other interviewing FBI agents on the balance of the interviews you have described?

Mr. Rowland. Yes; I did on the following Sunday to the agents who interviewed me where I worked.

Mr. Specter. How about the following Sunday?

Mr. Rowland. No; I did not.

Mr. Specter. Mr. Chief Justice, at this time I move for the admission into evidence of the three exhibits which we have shown this witness.

The Chairman. They may be admitted.

189 Mr. Specter. Exhibits Nos. 356, 357, and 358. That completes our questioning, Your Honor.

(The documents referred to were marked Commission's Exhibits Nos. 356, 357, and 358 for identification and admitted into evidence.)

The Chairman. Senator Cooper, have you any questions?

Senator Cooper. You said earlier that you had been much interested in and pursued studies in sounds, I believe?

Mr. Rowland. I have studied quite a bit of electronics, sound. Math and science is what I like.

Senator Cooper. You said you had read books on this subject. Did you ever conduct any experiments yourself?

Mr. Rowland. Yes; in the form of—there is a theory that sound is a basis of a transmitter and a receiver, that you have to have a receiver to have sound. There is a theory that if a tree falls down in the middle of a forest and there is nobody around where they can hear it, there is no sound.

Well, I have conducted experiments on this, and I—it is very interesting, very fascinating, but you can't prove it or you can't disprove it because if you have got a microphone there you have got a receiver.

Senator Cooper. Did you ever conduct any experiments with rifles, firing a rifle in relation to sound?

Mr. Rowland. Yes; in a firing range.

Senator Cooper. Beg pardon?

Mr. Rowland. Firing range.

Senator Cooper. Yes.

Mr. Rowland. I did conduct a few experiments. One of them was firing a bullet over water; you know, we were using a set of wood blocks to fire into, so we had a big vat of water that we were firing over, and we had several different articles and composition floating on the water, trying to measure the effect of the sound wave upon that. Such as this we did conduct.

Senator Cooper. I think you did say that when you heard the first report that you considered it to be a rifle shot?

Mr. Rowland. I did, but almost immediately everyone started laughing so I did not give it any further consideration until the second shot, second report.

Senator Cooper. At the time you saw a man standing near a window in the Texas School Book Depository with a rifle, can you state whether there were any, did you know whether or not any police officers were near you?

Mr. Rowland. There was an officer about 20 feet to my left.

Senator Cooper. Did you see any others?

Mr. Rowland. There were officers all over, that was the closest one. There were four or five on the block across the street from me, two of them being with the boy who had the epileptic fit.

There was also an officer in front of the doors to that building. There were several on the corners. I would say there were 20 uniformed officers right there in that 1-block area.

Senator Cooper. Could any of the officers that you saw whose position you noted, have seen this window from the place where they were standing?

Mr. Rowland. They could have; yes, sir.

Senator Cooper. You don't remember whether any of them were looking up there?

Mr. Rowland. No; I don't remember whether they were. No; I don't.

Senator Cooper. Did it occur to you that you should speak to the officer about seeing a man in the window?

Mr. Rowland. It has. Do you ever have reoccurring dreams, sir?

Senator Cooper. What?

Mr. Rowland. Do you ever have reoccurring dreams?

Senator Cooper. Yes.

Mr. Rowland. This is a reoccurring dream of mine, sir, all the time, what if I had told someone about it. I knew about it enough in advance and perhaps it could have been prevented. I mean this is something which shakes me up at times.

Senator Cooper. I don't want to disturb you about that but my point was at the190 time did you—I think you said, though, you thought that he was a—he could have been a—Secret Service man, officer.

Mr. Rowland. Yes; that is right.

Senator Cooper. That is all.

The Chairman. Anything further, Congressman Ford?

Representative Ford. Mr. Rowland, have you ever had occasion to go back to the scene and reconstruct it? Have you ever gone back——

The Chairman. Supposing we take a few minutes recess.

Mr. Rowland. The answer to that question is yes; I do all the time. I pass that area very frequently.

The Chairman. Any other questions, gentlemen, Mr. Wright?

Mr. Wright. No, Your Honor.

The Chairman. Very well, Mr. Rowland, I want to thank you for coming here and cooperating with the Commission. I know that this is a matter that recalls very sordid thoughts to your mind, and I can see how you would be somewhat distressed about it but you have been very frank and cooperative with us and I appreciate it.

We will take a short recess.

(Short recess.)

TESTIMONY OF JAMES RICHARD WORRELL, JR.

The Chairman. All right.

Will you raise your right hand and be sworn, please?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give before this Commission will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. Worrell. Yes, sir.

The Chairman. Will you be seated, please.

Mr. Worrell, the purpose of today's hearing is to hear the testimony of Arnold Louis Rowland, Amos Lee Evins, yourself, and Robert Jackson, who were in the vicinity of the assassination scene on November 22, 1963. The Commission proposes to ask you and the other witnesses for facts concerning your knowledge of the assassination of the President.

Mr. Worrell. Yes, sir.

The Chairman. Mr. Specter, will you proceed with the examination.

Mr. Specter. Will you state your full name for the record, please?

Mr. Worrell. James Richard Worrell, Jr.

The Chairman. Senator, will you preside while I answer a phone call to another member of the Commission?

Mr. Specter. What is your address, Mr. Worrell?

Mr. Worrell. 13510 Winterhaven Drive.

Mr. Specter. What city is that?

Mr. Worrell. In Dallas, it is the Farmers Branch of the suburb of Dallas.

Mr. Specter. How long have you resided in Dallas, Tex.?

Mr. Worrell. About 12 years.

Mr. Specter. And where did you live before that?

Mr. Worrell. 3140 Storey Lane.

Mr. Specter. And in what city is Storey Lane located?

Mr. Worrell. Dallas.

Mr. Specter. Where were you born?

Mr. Worrell. Livermore, Calif.

Mr. Specter. And how old are you at the present time?

Mr. Worrell. Twenty.

Mr. Specter. How long did you live in California?

Mr. Worrell. I am not exactly sure. I was a little bitty old thing and I think it was 2 or 3 years.

Mr. Specter. Where did you move from California?

Mr. Worrell. From California we moved to Abilene, I think.

Mr. Specter. Abilene, Tex.?

Mr. Worrell. Yes.

Mr. Specter. And have you lived in Texas since that time?

191 Mr. Worrell. Yes.

Mr. Specter. What is your marital status?

Mr. Worrell. Sir?

Mr. Specter. Are you married or single?

Mr. Worrell. Single, sir.

Mr. Specter. Do you live with your parents?

Mr. Worrell. My mother and sister.

Mr. Specter. And how much schooling have you had?

Mr. Worrell. Eleven years.

Mr. Specter. When did you end your schooling, if you have ended it?

Mr. Worrell. I ended it October of this year, I quit.

Mr. Specter. What school were you going to at that time?

Mr. Worrell. Thomas Jefferson.

Mr. Specter. High school?

Mr. Worrell. High school; yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. Located in Dallas, Tex.?

Mr. Worrell. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. And were you in the 11th grade or had you completed the 11th grade?

Mr. Worrell. I was a senior.

Mr. Specter. How were your grades in school?

Mr. Worrell. Average.

(The Chief Justice entered the hearing room at this point.)

Mr. Specter. How were you occupied or employed back on November 22, 1963?

Mr. Worrell. I was in school then. I skipped school to go there.

Mr. Specter. You were attending Jefferson High School on that day or were enrolled at that time?

Mr. Worrell. I was enrolled but I hadn't been going since October.

Mr. Specter. Was there any special reason for your not going since October?

Mr. Worrell. No, sir.

Mr. Specter. Had you been employed anywhere from the time you stopped going to school?

Mr. Worrell. Yes, sir. I was employed for El Capitan Oil Drilling out in Kermit, Tex.

Mr. Specter. What sort of work were you doing for them?

Mr. Worrell. I was a floor man on a derrick.

Mr. Specter. Did you say floor man?

Mr. Worrell. Yes.

Mr. Specter. On November 22, 1963, were you working on that day for your employer?

Mr. Worrell. No. I didn't start this oil job until—it was the last of January.

Mr. Specter. Of 1964?

Mr. Worrell. Yes.

Mr. Specter. And are you working for them at the present time?

Mr. Worrell. No, sir.

Mr. Specter. Whom are you working for now?

Mr. Worrell. I am not employed now.

Mr. Specter. Then going back to November 22, 1963, you had no job at that time?

Mr. Worrell. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. And did you attend school that day at all?

Mr. Worrell. No, sir.

Mr. Specter. Will you outline for us briefly what your activities were from the time you awakened until about noon time on November 22?

Mr. Worrell. Well, I got up about, well, I got up at my usual time, about 6:30. I was going to go to school that day but I decided to go see the President and my mother left about 7:30, and my sister left about a quarter of 8. I left about 8, and hitchhiked down to Love Field and got there. It took me quite a while to get there, about 9, and just messed around there until the President come in, whatever time that was. And then I didn't get to see him good at all. So, I caught a bus and went over, went downtown and I just, I don't know, happened192 to pick that place at the Depository, and I stood at the corner of Elm and Houston.

Mr. Specter. Did you leave Love Field before the President did?

Mr. Worrell. Oh, yes.

Mr. Specter. Why did you happen to leave Love Field before he left?

Mr. Worrell. Well, so I could see him better.

Mr. Specter. Couldn't you get a good view of him at Love Field?

Mr. Worrell. No, I just saw him off the plane and I figured that I wasn't going to see him good so I was going to get a better place to see him.

Mr. Specter. How did you travel from Love Field down to Elm and Houston?

Mr. Worrell. Bus. No, no; I just traveled so far on the bus. I went down to Elm, and took a bus from there. I went down as far as, I don't know where that bus stops, anyway I got close to there and I walked the rest of the way.

Mr. Specter. What time, to the best of your recollection, did you arrive at the intersection of Elm and Houston?

Mr. Worrell. Well, about 10, 10:30, 10:45, something around there. There weren't many people standing around there then.

Mr. Specter. Well, about how long before the Presidential motorcade came to Elm and Houston did you get there?

Mr. Worrell. An hour; an hour and a half.

Mr. Specter. Are you sure you were at Love Field when the President arrived there?

Mr. Worrell. Oh, yes.

Mr. Specter. All right. Now I am going to show you a photograph which I have marked as Commission Exhibit No. 359. Take a look at that, if you would, please, and tell us whether or not you can identify what scene that is?

Mr. Worrell. Yes, this is Elm, Pacific, and Commerce. This is the Depository right here, and this is Stemmons, and this is the way the President come down.

Mr. Specter. So is that the assassination scene itself?

Mr. Worrell. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. Now take a look at that picture and tell us where you were standing—and I will give you a pencil so you can mark it on that picture itself—at the time the Presidential motorcade came by. Mark it with an "X," if you would, just exactly where you were standing, as best as you can recollect it, at this moment, at the time the President went by.

Mr. Worrell. Right underneath that window right there.

Mr. Specter. Now, how close were you standing to this building which I will ask you to identify; first of all, what building is that?

Mr. Worrell. That is the Texas Depository.

Mr. Specter. All right.

Now how close to that building were you standing?

Mr. Worrell. I was, I don't know, 4 or 5 feet out from it.

Mr. Specter. Were you standing with your face to the building, with your back to the building, or how?

Mr. Worrell. My back was to the building.

Mr. Specter. I show you a photograph which has been identified as Commission Exhibit 360 and I will ask you if you can identify what that building is?

Mr. Worrell. That is the Depository.

Mr. Specter. All right.

Now on this picture will you again, with an "X," mark where you were standing as closely as you can recollect it.

Mr. Worrell. That car is in the way.

Mr. Specter. All right. Put the mark then right above where the car is, indicating where you were standing on the sidewalk near that building.

(Witness marking.)

Mr. Specter. Now, did you observe the President's motorcade come by?

Mr. Worrell. Oh, yes.

Mr. Specter. Describe to us what you saw, heard, and observed at that time, as the motorcade came by.

Mr. Worrell. Well, I saw him—I was standing looking—I don't know my directions very well; anyway, I was looking down towards Elm Street watching him come, and they filed by me——

193 Mr. Specter. On which street were you watching them come?

Mr. Worrell. This way.

Mr. Specter. Look at Exhibit 359 and pick out which street they were on?

Mr. Worrell. They were coming down this way, so on and so forth.

Mr. Specter. Well, now, were they coming down Elm Street or were they coming down Main Street with a right-hand turn on to Houston Street with a curve on Houston down Elm, recollect it if you can?

Mr. Worrell. That is right. They did turn around.

Mr. Specter. Did they come down——

Mr. Worrell. I didn't see him up there.

Mr. Specter. Where was the President's motorcade at the time you first saw it?

Mr. Worrell. Oh, about right in here.

Mr. Specter. Proceeding in this direction, indicating in a generally northerly direction on Houston Street, right?

Mr. Worrell. Yes, north.

Mr. Specter. Then tell us what the President's motorcade did?

Mr. Worrell. It turned and went down this way.

Mr. Specter. Made a left-hand or right-hand turn?

Mr. Worrell. Left-hand turn.

Mr. Specter. Did it pass right by in front of where you were standing?

Mr. Worrell. Within a hundred feet, I guess.

Mr. Specter. Were you able to get a pretty good view of the President's motorcade?

Mr. Worrell. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. All right; go ahead and tell us.

Mr. Worrell. Didn't get too good a view of the President either, I missed out on there too. But as they went by, they got, oh at least another 50, 75 feet on past me, and then I heard the shots.

Mr. Specter. How many shots did you hear?

Mr. Worrell. Four.

Mr. Specter. Did you observe anything at about that time?

Mr. Worrell. Yes, sir, I looked up and saw the rifle, but I would say about 6 inches of it.

Mr. Specter. And where did you see the rifle?

Mr. Worrell. I am not going—I am not too sure but I told the FBI it was either in the fifth or the sixth floor on the far corner, on the east side.

Mr. Specter. Now looking at the picture which we have identified as Commission Exhibit No. 360, which is where you have drawn an "X," can you indicate the line of vision which you followed to the point where the rifle was to the best of your ability to recollect?

Mr. Worrell. Well, when I heard the first shot it was too loud to be a firecracker, I knew that, because there was quite a big boom, and I don't know, just out of nowhere, I looked up like that, just straight up.

Mr. Specter. Indicating you looked straight back over your head, raising your head to look over your body at the 90 degree angle?

Mr. Worrell. Yes; and I saw it for the second time and I looked back to the motorcade.

Mr. Specter. What did you observe at that time?

Mr. Worrell. I saw about 6 inches of the gun, the rifle. It had—well it had a regular long barrel but it had a long stock and you could only see maybe 4 inches of the barrel, and I could see——

Mr. Specter. Were you able to observe any of the stock?

Mr. Worrell. Oh, yes.

Mr. Specter. How much of the stock were you able to observe?

Mr. Worrell. Just very little, just about 2 inches.

Mr. Specter. How many inches of the barrel then could you observe protruding beyond the stock?

Mr. Worrell. About 4 inches, I would say, not very much.

Mr. Specter. Now, at the time of the second shot were you able to observe anything at that precise instant?

Mr. Worrell. You mean as to firing it.

194 Mr. Specter. As to anything at all. What did you see when the second shot went off?

Mr. Worrell. Well, I looked to see where he was aiming and after the second shot and I have seen the President slumping down in the seat, and——

Mr. Specter. Did you see the President slump in his seat after the second shot?

Mr. Worrell. Uh, huh. And about that——

Mr. Specter. Did you look up and see the rifle between the first and the second shots?

Mr. Worrell. Yes, sir. And saw the firing on the second and then before he could get a shot I was—I took in everything but especially the car, the President's car, and saw him slumping, and I looked up again and turned around and started running and saw it fire a third time, and then——

Mr. Specter. When did you see it fire a third time, when you looked up, the time you just described?

Mr. Worrell. When I was, I did it all in one motion, I looked up, turned around and ran, pivoted.

Mr. Specter. What did you hear, if anything, after that?

Mr. Worrell. Just a lot of commotion, everybody was screaming and saying "duck."

Mr. Specter. After the third shot, did you hear a fourth shot?

Mr. Worrell. Oh, yes. Just as I got to the corner of Exhibit 360, I heard the fourth shot.

Mr. Specter. Well, did these four shots come close together or how would you describe the timing in general on those?

Mr. Worrell. Succession.

Mr. Specter. Were they very fast?

Mr. Worrell. They were right in succession.

Mr. Specter. Now going back to the position of the rifle which you testified that you saw, you say it was either on the fifth or sixth floor?

Mr. Worrell. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. Is there any way you can tell us which floor it was on, or would the angle of your observation permit you to be sure it was the fifth or sixth floors?

Mr. Worrell. I am not going to say I am positive, but that one there.

Mr. Specter. All right, would you mark that one——

Mr. Worrell. Because that right there, I feel, would have obstructed my vision but I said it was either on the fifth or sixth floor.

Mr. Specter. Well, now, will you mark with a "Y" the window which you have just pointed to?

(At this point Chief Justice Warren departed the hearing room.)

Mr. Worrell. A "Y?"

Mr. Specter. A "Y."

(Witness marking.)

Mr. Specter. You have marked the "Y" over two windows. Was it the window—which window was it there as best you can recollect, as between those two?

Mr. Worrell. I didn't mean to bring it down that far but this one.

Mr. Specter. Would you put an arrow then at the window that you have just indicated, was the one where the rifle was protruding from?

(Witness marking.)

Mr. Specter. So, the sum of it is you are not sure whether it was the fifth or the sixth floor, but you believe it was on the floor where you have marked a "Y" which is the sixth floor and that was the line of vision as you looked straight up over your head?

Mr. Worrell. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. Where did you run, which is what you have just described that you did next?

Mr. Worrell. Well, a better view of it is here in 360. I ran down Houston Street alongside the building and then crossed over the street, I ran alongside the building and crossed over, and in 359, I was standing over here, and I saw this man come bustling out of this door.

195 Mr. Specter. Before you get to that, Mr. Worrell, let me show you a diagram which has been prepared here, which may be of some assistance to you in telling us your movements in running. I will mark this as Commission Exhibit 361 and ask Mr. David Belin, Staff Counsel, to make a statement as to the preparation of this exhibit for the record.

Mr. Belin. The record will show that Exhibit 361 was prepared in the exhibit section of the Federal Bureau of Investigation by Inspector Leo. J. Gauthier and Eugene Paul Airy, exhibit specialist, with the assistance of Charles D. Musser, illustrator, with particular reference to showing the Texas School Book Depository Building, and the immediate area with relation to the parking lot that employees used.

Mr. Specter. Mr. Worrell, take a good look at this. Study it for just a moment in order to get your bearings on this particular map. This is the Texas School Book Depository Building designated as such. This is Houston Street and this is the direction I am indicating that the motorcade, as you have described from the other exhibit, came from, a generally northerly direction. This is generally north, and it made the left-hand turn which you have already described for the record, onto Elm Street Parkway going down the front there.

Now perhaps the best place to start on this is with this red pencil, to put a small "X" where you were standing on this map.

Mr. Worrell. Where I was standing?

Mr. Specter. Where you were standing.

(Witness marking.)

Mr. Specter. Now will you describe your movement in running as you had started to a few moments ago, indicating with a line of the red pencil just exactly where you went and describe it as you go along.

Mr. Worrell. Well, as I said on the third shot I was looking up and pivoting and turning to run at the same time. When I got here I heard the fourth shot.

Mr. Specter. Indicating that you were at that point right at the corner of the building on Houston?

Mr. Worrell. Making a turn.

Mr. Specter. Having moved slightly to your left, and beginning to make a turn to go in a generally northerly direction on Houston Street?

Mr. Worrell. I thought that was north.

Mr. Specter. No, this is north, there is a symbol showing which is north.

Mr. Worrell. Okay. Then I turned the corner, went right down beside the building on the sidewalk and when I got to the corner——

Mr. Specter. Corner of what?

Mr. Worrell. Of this building.

Mr. Specter. Of the Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mr. Worrell. Yes.

Mr. Specter. And what did you do there?

Mr. Worrell. Cut directly across, kind of at an angle.

Mr. Specter. Across Houston Street as you have drawn the red line there?

Mr. Worrell. Yes, and I rested there, I was out of breath, I smoke too much, short winded.

Mr. Specter. Will you mark that "Y" where you stopped and rested and tell us how long you stopped there?

(Witness marking.)

Mr. Worrell. How long?

Mr. Specter. Yes, sir.

Mr. Worrell. I was there approximately 3 minutes before I saw this man come out the back door here.

Mr. Specter. All right.

Now will you put a "Z" where you first saw the man whom you have just described or mentioned?

Mr. Worrell. It is here I am pretty sure, I am not positive.

(Witness marking.)

Mr. Specter. You are pretty sure—but you can't be positive—but you are pretty sure?

Mr. Worrell. Yes.

196 Mr. Specter. Okay. Now, describe as best you can the man whom you have testified you saw at point "Z."

Mr. Worrell. Describe his appearance?

Mr. Specter. Yes. Start by telling us how tall he was, to the best of your ability to recollect and estimate?

Mr. Worrell. To the—it is going to be within 3 inches, 5-7 to 5-10.

Mr. Specter. What is your best estimate as to his weight?

Mr. Worrell. 155 to 165.

Mr. Specter. What is your best estimate as to his height?

Mr. Worrell. 5-7, 5-10.

Mr. Specter. Pardon me, your best estimate as to his age.

Mr. Worrell. Well, the way he was running, I would say he was in his late twenties or middle—I mean early thirties. Because he was fast moving on.

Mr. Specter. Of what race was he?

Mr. Worrell. White.

Mr. Specter. Can you describe the characteristics of his hair?

Mr. Worrell. Black.

Mr. Specter. Did he have——

Mr. Worrell. Well, I will say brunette.

Mr. Specter. Did he have a full head of hair, a partial head of hair, or what?

Mr. Worrell. Well, see, I didn't see his face, I just saw the back of his head and it was full in the back. I don't know what the front looked like. But it was full in the back.

Mr. Specter. What clothes did the man have on?

Mr. Worrell. Dark, like a jacket like that.

Mr. Specter. Indicating a dark gray jacket?

Mr. Worrell. No, no. It was a jacket like that.

Mr. Specter. A suit jacket?

Mr. Worrell. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Or was it a sports jacket?

Mr. Worrell. Sports jacket.

Mr. Specter. Did not have on matching coat and trousers?

Mr. Worrell. No.

Mr. Specter. Was it dark in color or light?

Mr. Worrell. It was dark in color. I don't know whether it was blue, black, or brown, but it was dark, and he had light pants. And that is all I can say on his clothes, except his coat was open and kind of flapping back in the breeze when he was running.

Mr. Specter. Now, are there any other distinguishing characteristics that you can describe about him?

Mr. Worrell. Not a thing.

Mr. Specter. What did he——

Mr. Worrell. He wasn't holding nothing when he was running. He was just running.

Mr. Specter. What did you observe him do, if anything?

Mr. Worrell. Well, when he ran out here, he ran along the side of the Depository Building and then when he got——

Mr. Specter. Make a dotted line as to where he went, or take this black pencil and make a line as to where he went.

(Witness marking.)

Mr. Specter. Where did you see him eventually go?

Mr. Worrell. Well, he went on further.

Mr. Specter. Is that the last you saw him?

Mr. Worrell. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. And did something come between you and him so that your vision was obstructed?

Mr. Worrell. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. As of the point you have just dotted out there?

Mr. Worrell. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. What obstructed your view of him at that juncture or at that point?

197 Mr. Worrell. I can't really be sure, it was a building, but the type of building, I don't know.

Mr. Specter. During the course of your seeing him, did you ever get a view of his face?

Mr. Worrell. Oh, no, no.

Mr. Specter. All right. What did you do next, Mr. Worrell?

Mr. Worrell. Well, I went on down this way and headed up back to Elm Street.

Mr. Specter. Indicating you went on down to Pacific?

Mr. Worrell. Yes.

Mr. Specter. And then proceeded——

Mr. Worrell. No, no; that is wrong. I went on Pacific and——

Mr. Specter. Just a minute. You proceeded from point "Y" on in a generally northerly direction to Pacific and then in what direction did you go on Pacific, this would be in an easterly direction?

Mr. Worrell. I went east.

Mr. Specter. You went in an easterly direction how many blocks down Pacific?

Mr. Worrell. I went down to Market and from Market I went on Ross.

Mr. Specter. You went left on Market down to Ross, and then?

Mr. Worrell. From Ross I went all the way to Ervay.

Mr. Specter. Where were you heading for at that time?

Mr. Worrell. For the bus stop near my mother's office. And I rode the bus from there out to the school and hitchhiked the rest of the way to Farmers Branch.

Mr. Specter. All right. When did you first report to any official what you had seen and heard on this occasion?

Mr. Worrell. Well, I turned the TV on early next morning to see what had happened, and Chief Curry was making a plea——

Senator Cooper. Is that going to become a part of the evidence at this point?

Mr. Worrell. Chief Curry was making a plea for anyone who had seen the shooting, would they please come down and make a statement. So I called the Farmer Branch police, and told them, and they come and picked me up, and they called the Dallas police, and they come way out there and picked me up and took me downtown to make a statement and brought me back home.

Mr. Specter. Mr. Worrell, before we leave this Exhibit 361, are you able to testify as to the accuracy of the scale drawing here which represents the part of it that you have testified about, specifically the presence of the Texas School Book Depository Building on the northwest corner of Elm and Houston. Is that the accurate location of that building?

Mr. Worrell. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. And is it an accurate reproduction of the intersection of Elm and Houston leading into the parkway on Elm Street?

Mr. Worrell. As far as this?

Mr. Specter. Yes.

Mr. Worrell. Yes.

Mr. Specter. As far as all the parts you have testified about Elm and Houston. Is it accurate that Pacific is one block in the northerly direction away from Elm Street?

Mr. Worrell. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. And Ross is another block, generally, in a northerly direction away from Pacific?

Mr. Worrell. No, Ross is over here. This is Record Street.

Mr. Specter. Well, first there is Elm, then there is Pacific, and then there is Ross. Is that much accurate as the map shows it to be, is that the way the streets are laid out?

Mr. Worrell. I think so.

Mr. Specter. How about the general width of Houston Street in relation to the general width of the Texas School Depository Building, is that about right?

Mr. Worrell. I don't know, sir.

Mr. Specter. All right, that is fine.

198 At the same time that we have marked Exhibit 361, Mr. Chairman, I would like to use the next number in sequence, No. 362 to mark the other half of this same exhibit which is designated Texas School Book Depository floor plan of the first floor, which we will not use at this time, but I would like to mark it in sequence.

And at this time I ask that Commission Exhibits Nos. 359, 360, 361, and 362 be admitted into evidence.

Senator Cooper. So ordered. Let those exhibits be admitted as part of the evidence.

(The documents referred to, heretofore marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 359, 360, 361, and 362 were admitted into evidence.)

Mr. Specter. Mr. Worrell, you had told us that you heard a plea by Chief of Police Curry for all witnesses to come forward.

Mr. Worrell. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. And you heard that plea on the 23d of November?

Mr. Worrell. It was on Saturday.

Mr. Specter. What action, if any, did you take in response to that request?

Mr. Worrell. I called on the phone to the Farmers Branch police.

Mr. Specter. You called who?

Mr. Worrell. The Farmers Branch police.

Mr. Specter. I see. And what did you do then?

Mr. Worrell. Well, I told them what I had seen and they said, "Well, stay there and we will come and get you."

Mr. Specter. Did they come and get you?

Mr. Worrell. Oh, yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. Did you then tell the police what you had seen and heard?

Mr. Worrell. I told a Lt. Butler what I had seen, and I don't know if—they placed the call into the Dallas police and something like an hour later they came to pick me up there.

Mr. Specter. Did you make a statement or take an affidavit on what you had seen and heard?

Mr. Worrell. To the Dallas police?

Mr. Specter. Yes.

Mr. Worrell. Oh, yes, sir. I made a statement and signed five of them.

Mr. Specter. I will show you a paper which is marked Commission Exhibit 363 which purports to be an affidavit bearing your signature.

Mr. Worrell. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. Let me ask you first of all if that is your signature?

Mr. Worrell. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. And would you take just a minute, take your time and read that affidavit over, please.

Have you had a chance to read that over, Mr. Worrell?

Mr. Worrell. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. Did you tell us that you signed five different statements or five copies of the same statement?

Mr. Worrell. Five copies of the same statement.

Mr. Specter. Is this the statement which you signed in affidavit form at that time?

Mr. Worrell. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. And——

Mr. Worrell. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. As you have just—have you had time to read it over just now?

Mr. Worrell. Oh, yes.

Mr. Specter. Is that statement accurate based on your current recollection of the event?

Mr. Worrell. It is accurate down to, well, I changed my height to 5-8 from 5-7.

Mr. Specter. Aside from that minor variation, is it accurate in its entirety; that is, is it all accurate?

Mr. Worrell. Well, I left out, when I was making my affidavit, I left out, while I was running I heard a gun fire two more times. Well, as I told you, I was199 turning the corner when I heard it and saw it fire the third time, and then the fourth.

Mr. Specter. Now, are there any other additions or modifications that you would like to make from the contents of your statement in accordance with your recollection at this moment?

Mr. Worrell. I can't verify that—the time they got here because I am not too sure of that.

Mr. Specter. You are not sure of that now?

Mr. Worrell. No.

Mr. Specter. All right.

Are there any other modifications that you would want to make in the contents of the statement?

Mr. Worrell. Leave out firecracker. It sounded, it was too loud for a firecracker.

Mr. Specter. Your current recollection is that it was too loud for a firecracker?

Mr. Worrell. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Is there any other respect in which your current recollection differs from this affidavit?

Mr. Worrell. Instead of looking I ran, I looked up.

Mr. Specter. Is there any other respect in which your current recollection differs from the affidavit?

Mr. Worrell. Well, I left out on the barrel of the rifle, I left out part of the stock. I didn't recollect that at that time.

Mr. Specter. Is there any other aspect in which your current recollection differs from the facts set forth in this affidavit?

Mr. Worrell. Well, everything else is O.K.

Mr. Specter. What is your best estimate as to the length of time between the first shot and the last shot which you heard?

Mr. Worrell. The best estimate 5, 6 seconds.

Mr. Specter. Have you talked to, been interviewed by or given a statement to any Federal agent?

Mr. Worrell. The FBI down at Dallas.

Mr. Specter. How many times have you seen the FBI agents?

Mr. Worrell. Once.

Mr. Specter. Do you recollect the names of the agents you saw?

Mr. Worrell. No, sir.

Mr. Specter. Do you recollect when it was that you saw those agents?

Mr. Worrell. It was on that Saturday, the 23d.

Mr. Specter. And where were you when you saw them?

Mr. Worrell. In the Dallas Police Station.

Mr. Specter. How long did that interview last?

Mr. Worrell. Thirty minutes.

Mr. Specter. Did you sign a statement for them?

Mr. Worrell. I just signed it for the Dallas police. They didn't have me sign anything.

Mr. Specter. Have you been interviewed by any other Federal agent or representative?

Mr. Worrell. Well, Mr. Sorrels interviewed me when he called me and asked me some questions when he called me up Wednesday night, I guess it was.

Mr. Specter. Was that in relationship to your coming here to this Commission hearing?

Mr. Worrell. Yes.

Mr. Specter. What sort of questions did Mr. Sorrels ask you?

Mr. Worrell. What I saw. And I told him.

Mr. Specter. Was that just on the telephone?

Mr. Worrell. Yes.

Mr. Specter. How long did that conversation last?

Mr. Worrell. Not very long. He talked to my mother first. He talked to her for 15 minutes, something like this.

Mr. Specter. Was he talking to her about what you saw or about travel arrangements to get you here?

200 Mr. Worrell. I don't know. I was watching television, I didn't know even who she was talking to.

Mr. Specter. All right. Aside from that conversation with Mr. Sorrels and the interview you have had with the FBI, have you ever talked with any agent or representative of the Federal Government.

Mr. Worrell. No, sir.

Mr. Specter. Have you talked to any police official of Dallas or the State of Texas after you gave this affidavit?

Mr. Worrell. No, sir.

Mr. Specter. Based on seeing only the back of this man, were you ever able to make any identification of him?

Mr. Worrell. No, sir.

Mr. Specter. Mr. Chairman, I move for the admission into evidence of the other exhibit which we have used with Mr. Worrell being Commission Exhibit No. 362.

Senator Cooper. The exhibit will be admitted to evidence.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 362 for identification and received in evidence.)

Mr. Specter. That concludes our questions.

Senator Cooper. You stated that, I believe, you looked up after you had heard the first report?

Mr. Worrell. Yes, sir.

Senator Cooper. You looked up and saw the barrel of a rifle, and then the rifle fired. What made you know that it fired?

Mr. Worrell. Pardon?

Senator Cooper. How did you know it was fired when you were looking at it?

Mr. Worrell. Well, I saw what you might call a little flame and smoke.

Senator Cooper. You saw something that came out of the barrel?

Mr. Worrell. Yes, sir.

Senator Cooper. Were you looking at it when you heard the third report?

Mr. Worrell. Yes, sir, looking at it, turning around and started to run.

Senator Cooper. Did you see anything then?

Mr. Worrell. Same thing, a little flash of fire and then smoke. I didn't see it on the fourth one.

Senator Cooper. Did you only look at the car in which the President was riding one time when you said you saw him slump?

Mr. Worrell. Yes, sir.

Senator Cooper. Did you look back at the President's car then?

Mr. Worrell. No, sir. I didn't do that because I mean I didn't know if there was one or more guns, because I wondered why if it was in such rapid succession being a bolt action, I found out later, and I didn't know what was coming off, so I was running to the back of the building because I figured that would be the safest place.

Senator Cooper. Did you see anyone in the windows, in the Texas Depository Building?

Mr. Worrell. No, sir.

Senator Cooper. Did you notice where this man you have described later as running away from the building, did you see him come out of the building?

Mr. Worrell. Yes, sir.

Senator Cooper. Where?

Mr. Worrell. At the back entrance. Approximately where I put the mark "Z."

Senator Cooper. Was he running all the time you saw him?

Mr. Worrell. Yes, sir, he sure was.

Senator Cooper. That is all.

Mr. Wright. Prior to hearing the first shot, had you looked up at the School Book Depository Building?

Mr. Worrell. No, sir; I sure didn't.

Mr. Wright. That is all.

Mr. Specter. Were you able to observe the direction of the barrel which you have described?

201 Mr. Worrell. Pointing right down at the motorcade.

Mr. Specter. Any special part of the motorcade?

Mr. Worrell. I mean, I couldn't really say that because it was too high up and he could have been pointing at anyone of the cars. I mean I couldn't tell from where I was standing.

Mr. Specter. Was it on the part of the motorcade which had turned down Elm Street or on the part of the motorcade that was still on Houston or what?

Mr. Worrell. It was the part that was turned down Elm Street.

Mr. Specter. Mr. Worrell, we have a report of the Federal Bureau of Investigation which contains a purported interview with you, designated as report of Robert P. Gemberling dated November 30, 1963, which has this statement:

"He"—referring to you—"stated that last night when he saw photographs of Lee Harvey Oswald on television he felt this was the person he had seen running away from the building. He stated this person did not look back but he was certain this was a white person since he had a profile view."

My question, first of all, to you: Did you have a profile view of the man who ran away from the building that you described?

Mr. Worrell. No, sir.

Mr. Specter. The second question is, did you tell the FBI that you had a profile view?

Mr. Worrell. No, sir, I sure didn't.

Mr. Specter. Did you tell the FBI agent who interviewed you, that you felt that this person was Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. Worrell. I don't know if I did or not.

Mr. Specter. Did you see anyone else leave the building, that is the Texas School Book Depository Building, except the man you have already described to us?

Mr. Worrell. No, sir.

Mr. Specter. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman.

Senator Cooper. Are there any further questions? I believe we will stand in recess until 2 o'clock.

(Whereupon, at 1:10 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)


Afternoon Session
TESTIMONY OF AMOS LEE EUINS

The President's Commission reconvened at 2:15 p.m.

The Chairman. The Commission will come to order.

Amos, will you stand up, please, and raise your right hand?

Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give before this Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. Euins. Yes, sir.

The Chairman. You may be seated. How old are you?

Mr. Euins. Sixteen.

The Chairman. All right.

Mr. Specter. Mr. Chief Justice, should we start by reading the purpose?

The Chairman. Yes. I think you received a copy of this statement. But I just want to say to you that the purpose of today's hearing is to hear the testimony of Arnold Louis Rowland, James Richard Worrell, Robert H. Jackson, and yourself who were in the vicinity of the assassination scene on November 22, 1963. The Commission proposes to ask you facts concerning your knowledge of the assassination of President Kennedy.

You understand that?

Mr. Euins. Yes.

The Chairman. All right.

Mr. Specter. Would you tell us your full name for the record, please?

Mr. Euins. Amos Lee Euins.

Mr. Specter. What is your exact date of birth, Amos?

202 Mr. Euins. January 10, 1948.

Mr. Specter. January 10, 1948?

Mr. Euins. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. And are you a school boy at the present time?

Mr. Euins. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. What school do you go to?

Mr. Euins. Franklin D. Roosevelt.

Mr. Specter. What grade are you in at that school?

Mr. Euins. The ninth.

Mr. Specter. Do you live with your parents, Amos?

Mr. Euins. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. How is your health generally?

Mr. Euins. I guess it is all right.

Mr. Specter. How are your eyes?

Mr. Euins. They are all right.

Mr. Specter. Can you see good at a distance?

Mr. Euins. Yes, I can see good at a distance, but I can't see at real close range.

Mr. Specter. Are you able to read without glasses?

Mr. Euins. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. You don't use glasses for any purposes, then?

Mr. Euins. No, sir.

Mr. Specter. When you say you have trouble at close range, just what do you mean by that?

Mr. Euins. You know, like I put something on real close.

Mr. Specter. Indicating about 4 or 5 inches from your eyes?

Mr. Euins. Yes, sir. And then they kind of get dim. But on a long scene, I can see good.

Mr. Specter. How are your grades in school, Amos?

Mr. Euins. They are all right.

Mr. Specter. Are they better than average, or what?

Mr. Euins. They are about average.

Mr. Specter. All right.

Going back to November 22, 1963, that is last year, Amos, do you recall what you were doing early on that morning?

Mr. Euins. Yes, sir. When I first got up, I went to school. Then about 11:30, well, the teachers called us and told us the ones that wanted to go downtown to see the President come down to the office and get an excuse and they could go. So I went down to the office, and I got an excuse, so I went downtown.

Mr. Specter. And what time did you leave school?

Mr. Euins. 11:30.

Mr. Specter. And where did you go from your school?

Mr. Euins. Downtown.

Mr. Specter. What part of downtown?

Mr. Euins. Right over by the county jail.

Mr. Specter. Do you know the names of those streets, Amos?

Mr. Euins. No, sir.

Mr. Specter. If I told you they were Elm and Houston, would that help your memory as to what the names of those streets were?

Mr. Euins. It was right by the freeway.

Mr. Specter. All right. Let me show you a photograph, Amos, which is on a document I have marked as Commission Exhibit No. 365.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 365 for identification.)

Mr. Specter. Take just a minute and look at that, and see if you can recognize where that is.

Mr. Euins. This is going across the railroad tracks, back up to here—right here at the corner is the Book Depository Building.

Mr. Specter. That is the Book Depository Building, you say?

Mr. Euins. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. All right.

203 Why don't you just put an "X" with this pencil on the Book Depository Building, as you identify it there, Amos—on the building itself.

(Witness marking.)

Mr. Specter. Now, were you somewhere in that area when the President's motorcade went by?

Mr. Euins. I was right here.

Mr. Specter. Why don't you take this black pencil and put an "A" right where you were, Amos.

(Witness marking.)

Mr. Specter. Now, what time did you get to the place where you have marked with an "A"?

Mr. Euins. Oh, I would say around about 15 minutes or something like that to 12, because my mother brought me down there.

Mr. Specter. She drove you down, did she?

Mr. Euins. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. Now, were you with anybody when you came to that spot, or did your mother leave you off there by yourself?

Mr. Euins. She left me. She had to go on to work.

Mr. Specter. Now, about how long was it after you got there that the motorcade came by?

Mr. Euins. Oh, I would say about—I had been there about 15, maybe 20 minutes. It come around the corner, come on around.

Mr. Specter. All right.

Amos, I want to show you another picture here that I have marked as Commission Exhibit No. 366.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 366 for identification.)

Mr. Specter. I ask you if you can recognize what that building is.

Mr. Euins. This here is the Book Depository Building.

Mr. Specter. All right.

Now, look back over here at 365. Can you tell us which direction the President's motorcade came from on this picture?

Mr. Euins. It come from right in here.

Mr. Specter. First of all, do you know what the name of this street is? Would that be Main Street, in Dallas?

Mr. Euins. Yes, sir; I think so.

Mr. Specter. Coming down Main Street, indicating in a general westerly direction. Turning which way?

Mr. Euins. This way.

Mr. Specter. Turned right.

Do you know if that is Houston Street?

Mr. Euins. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. Specter. Let the record show the witness is identifying a street heretofore identified as Houston.

Then which way did the motorcade go after proceeding in a general northerly direction on Houston?

Mr. Euins. It come this way, turn.

Mr. Specter. Which way—right or left?

Mr. Euins. It turned to the left, coming down, going on.

Mr. Specter. Do you know the name of the street it turned onto when it made the left turn?

Mr. Euins. I was just trying to keep an eye on the President.

Mr. Specter. The witness has identified a street heretofore identified as Elm Street.

Tell us what you saw as the motorcade went by.

Mr. Euins. I was standing here on the corner. And then the President come around the corner right here. And I was standing here. And I was waving, because there wasn't hardly no one on the corner right there but me. I was waving. He looked that way and he waved back at me. And then I had seen a pipe, you know, up there in the window, I thought it was a pipe, some kind of pipe.

Mr. Specter. When had you first seen that thing you just described as a pipe?

Mr. Euins. Right as he turned the corner here.

204 Mr. Specter. Now, exactly where did you see that thing you have described as a pipe come from. And take a good look now before you tell us where it was.

Mr. Euins. Right here.

Mr. Specter. Now, will you mark an "X" on Exhibit No. 366 where you saw the pipe? Mark the exact window, if you can, Amos.

(Witness marking.)

Mr. Specter. All right.

Proceed to tell us what happened, Amos.

Mr. Euins. Then I was standing here, and as the motorcade turned the corner, I was facing, looking dead at the building. And so I seen this pipe thing sticking out the window. I wasn't paying too much attention to it. Then when the first shot was fired, I started looking around, thinking it was a backfire. Everybody else started looking around. Then I looked up at the window, and he shot again. So—you know this fountain bench here, right around here. Well, anyway, there is a little fountain right here. I got behind this little fountain, and then he shot again.

So after he shot again, he just started looking down this, you know.

Mr. Specter. Who started looking down that way?

Mr. Euins. The man in the window. I could see his hand, and I could see his other hand on the trigger, and one hand was on the barrel thing.

Mr. Specter. All right.

Now, at the time the second shot was fired, where were you looking then?

Mr. Euins. I was still looking at the building, you know, behind this—I was looking at the building.

Mr. Specter. Looking at anything special in the building?

Mr. Euins. Yes, sir. I was looking where the barrel was sticking out.

Mr. Specter. How many shots did you hear altogether?

Mr. Euins. I believe there was four, to be exact.

Mr. Specter. Now, where were you looking at the time of the third shot, if you remember?

Mr. Euins. After he shot the first two times, I was just standing back here. And then after he shot again, he pulled the gun back in the window. And then all the police ran back over here in the track vicinity.

Mr. Specter. Slow down just a little bit in what you are telling us.

When the second shot occurred, were you still standing at the point where you marked with an "A" on 365?

Mr. Euins. Yes, sir. But I was right behind this little——

Mr. Specter. Were you a little bit behind of where that "A" is?

Mr. Euins. Yes, sir; right back here.

Mr. Specter. Let's mark that with a "B," where you were at the time the second shot occurred.

(Witness marking.)

Mr. Specter. All right.

Now, when the third shot occurred, Amos, let me ask you again, where were you looking then?

Mr. Euins. I was still down here, looking up at the building.

Mr. Specter. What did you see in the building?

Mr. Euins. I seen a bald spot on this man's head, trying to look out the window. He had a bald spot on his head. I was looking at the bald spot. I could see his hand, you know the rifle laying across in his hand. And I could see his hand sticking out on the trigger part. And after he got through, he just pulled it back in the window.

Mr. Specter. Did you see him pull it back in the window?

Mr. Euins. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. And were you still standing at point B?

Mr. Euins. Yes.

Mr. Specter. When he pulled it back in the window?

Mr. Euins. I was still behind here, yes.

Mr. Specter. Where were you when you heard what you described as the fourth shot?

Mr. Euins. The first shot I was standing here.

205 Mr. Specter. Now you are referring to 366. Put an "L" on 366 where you were standing at the first shot.

Mr. Euins. Right here.

(Witness marking.)

Mr. Euins. And then as I looked up there, you know, he fired another shot, you know, as I was looking. So I got behind this fountain thing right in there, at this point B.

Mr. Specter. At point B on 365?

Mr. Euins. I got behind there. And then I watched, he did fire again. Then he started looking down towards my way, and then he fired again.

Mr. Specter. The question I have for you now is where were you when he fired on that fourth time.

Mr. Euins. I was still behind point B.

Mr. Specter. You were still at point B when he fired the fourth time?

Mr. Euins. Yes, sir. Then he pulled the gun back in the window.

Mr. Specter. Did you see him pull the gun back in the window after the fourth shot?

Mr. Euins. Yes; he just come back like this.

Mr. Specter. Did you watch what he did after that?

Mr. Euins. No, sir; because after he had pulled it back in the window, I ran this way, and went across the tracks.

Mr. Specter. All right.

You start on Exhibit 365, and put the black mark and show us the path of where you ran on 365.

Mr. Euins. I was here at "B."

(At this point, Representative Ford entered the hearing room.)

(Witness marking.)

Mr. Euins. I was coming down like this here, and there was a policeman, you know there is a little cut you can come through there. There was a policeman standing right around here.

Mr. Specter. Where was the policeman standing? Mark that with point "C," Amos.

Mr. Euins. Right there.

(Witness marking.)

Mr. Specter. You ran past the policeman standing at point C?

Mr. Euins. No, sir. You see, I come from point B, and ran here, and told the policeman I had seen the shot, because they were looking at the railroad tracks. So he put me on the cycle and he went to here.

Mr. Specter. He put you on the cycle and took you where?

Mr. Euins. Up to the front of the building.

Mr. Specter. The Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mr. Euins. Yes, sir; and then he called some more cars. They got all around the building. And then the policemen came from the tracks, and they got around the building.

Mr. Specter. Did you see the policemen come from the tracks to go around the building?

Mr. Euins. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. About how many policemen were there, would you say, Amos?

Mr. Euins. There was about 14 or something like that. They were coming from the tracks here.

Mr. Specter. Do you know what the name of that policeman was, who was in that position where you have marked C?

Mr. Euins. No, sir. He was kind of an old policeman. I ran down and got him. And he ran up here.

Mr. Specter. You mean——

Mr. Euins. The Book Depository Building.

Then he called some more cars. They got all the way around the building. And then after that, well, he seen another man. Another man told him he seen a man run out the back.

Mr. Specter. Do you know who that man was who said somebody ran out the back?

Mr. Euins. No, sir. He was a construction man working back there.

206 Mr. Specter. Were you there when the man talked about somebody running out the back?

Mr. Euins. Yes, sir. He said the man had—he said he had kind of bald spot on his head. And he said the man come back there.

Mr. Specter. Do you know what the name of the man was who told the police that someone had run out the back?

Mr. Euins. . No, sir.

Mr. Specter. What did you do next, Amos?

Mr. Euins. So then they took me over to the county jail. And that is where I told them what happened. And then they was standing around the Book Depository Building, and I stayed over there to the jailhouse about 6 o'clock. And then they took me home.

Mr. Specter. And did they question you about what happened and what you observed on that occasion?

Mr. Euins. At the jailhouse?

Mr. Specter. At the jailhouse.

Mr. Euins. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. All right.

Amos, would you tell us everything that you can remember about what you saw about the gun itself?

Mr. Euins. Well, when I first got here on the corner, the President was coming around the bend. That is when—I was looking at the building then.

Mr. Specter. What did you think it was when you first saw it?

Mr. Euins. I thought it was a piece of pipe or something sticking out the window.

Mr. Specter. Did it look like it was a piece of metal to you?

Mr. Euins. Yes, sir; just a little round piece of pipe.

Mr. Specter. About an inch in diameter, would you say?

Mr. Euins. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. And how long was the piece of pipe that you saw?

Mr. Euins. It was sticking out about that much.

Mr. Specter. About 14 or 15 inches?

Mr. Euins. Yes, sir. And then after I seen it sticking out, after awhile, that is when I heard the shot, and everybody started looking around.

Mr. Specter. At that time, Amos, did you see anything besides the end of the pipe?

Mr. Euins. No, sir.

Mr. Specter. For example, you didn't see anything about a stock or any other part of the rifle?

Mr. Euins. No, sir—not with the first shot. You see, the President was still right along down in here somewhere on the first shot.

Mr. Specter. Now, when you saw it on the first occasion, did you think it was a rifle then? Or did that thought enter your mind?

Mr. Euins. No, sir; I wasn't thinking about it then. But when I was looking at it, when he shot, it sounded like a high-powered rifle, after I listened to it awhile, because I had been in the NDCC for about a year.

Mr. Specter. What is NDCC?

Mr. Euins. We call it a military army for the boys, at our school.

Mr. Specter. Is that ROTC?

Mr. Euins. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. ROTC. And have you had any opportunity to fire a weapon in that ROTC class?

Mr. Euins. No, sir; not outside of just .22's. We fire them on the firing range.

Mr. Specter. All right.

Now, when you looked up at the rifle later, you described seeing some of the trigger part.

Mr. Euins. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. Now, describe as fully as you can for us what you saw then, Amos.

Mr. Euins. Well, when he stuck it out, you know—after the President had207 come on down the street further, you know he kind of stuck it out more, you know.

Mr. Specter. How far was it sticking out of the window would you say then, Amos?

Mr. Euins. I would say it was about something like that.

Mr. Specter. Indicating about 3 feet?

Mr. Euins. You know—the trigger housing and stock and receiver group out the window.

Mr. Specter. I can't understand you, Amos.

Mr. Euins. It was enough to get the stock and receiving house and the trigger housing to stick out the window.

Mr. Specter. The stock and receiving house?

Mr. Euins. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Now, what direction was the rifle pointing?

Mr. Euins. Down—what did you say—Elm?

Mr. Specter. Elm Street?

Mr. Euins. Yes, sir; down Elm.

Mr. Specter. Was it pointing in the direction of the President?

Mr. Euins. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. Now, could you see anything else on the gun?

Mr. Euins. No, sir; I could not.

Mr. Specter. For example, could you see whether or not there was a telescopic lens on the gun?

Mr. Euins. No, sir.

Mr. Specter. Now, is there anything else about the gun that you can describe to us that you have not already told us about?

Mr. Euins. No, sir.

Mr. Specter. Now, what kind of a look, if any, did you have at the man who was there?

Mr. Euins. All I got to see was the man with a spot in his head, because he had his head something like this.

Mr. Specter. Indicating his face down, looking down the rifle?

Mr. Euins. Yes, sir; and I could see the spot on his head.

Mr. Specter. How would you describe that man for us?

Mr. Euins. I wouldn't know how to describe him, because all I could see was the spot and his hand.

Mr. Specter. Was he slender or was he fat?

Mr. Euins. I didn't get to see him.

Mr. Specter. Could you tell from where you looked whether he was tall or short?

Mr. Euins. No.

Mr. Specter. Of what race was he, Amos?

Mr. Euins. I couldn't tell, because these boxes were throwing a reflection, shaded.

Mr. Specter. Could you tell whether he was a Negro gentleman or a white man?

Mr. Euins. No, sir.

Mr. Specter. Couldn't even tell that? But you have described that he had a bald——

Mr. Euins. Spot in his head. Yes, sir; I could see the bald spot in his head.

Mr. Specter. Now, could you tell what color hair he had?

Mr. Euins. No, sir.

Mr. Specter. Could you tell whether his hair was dark or light?

Mr. Euins. No, sir.

Mr. Specter. How far back did the bald spot on his head go?

Mr. Euins. I would say about right along in here.

Mr. Specter. Indicating about 2 inches above where your hairline is. Is that about what you are saying?

Mr. Euins. Yes, sir; right along in here.

Mr. Specter. Now, did you get a very good look at that man, Amos?

Mr. Euins. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. Specter. Were you able to tell anything about the clothes he was wearing?

Mr. Euins. No, sir.

208 Mr. Specter. Now, when you were at the sheriff's department in the police station that you have described, did they ask you to sign an affidavit or statement for them, Amos?

Mr. Euins. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. I now show you a paper, Amos, which I have marked as Commission Exhibit No. 367.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 367 for identification.)

Mr. Specter. This is supposed to be a statement which is signed. Let me first point out to you that it is a copy of it. I ask you if this is a copy of your signature?

Mr. Euins. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. All right.

Now, will you take your time, Amos, and read that over, and then I want to ask you a couple of questions about it.

Did you have a chance to read it over?

Mr. Euins. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. All right.

Let me ask you about a couple of specific things here, Amos.

In the statement you say here that he was a white man. By reading the statement, does that refresh your memory as to whether he was a white man or not?

Mr. Euins. No, sir; I told the man that I could see a white spot on his head, but I didn't actually say it was a white man. I said I couldn't tell. But I saw a white spot in his head.

Mr. Specter. Your best recollection at this moment is you still don't know whether he was a white man or a Negro? All you can say is that you saw a white spot on his head?

Mr. Euins. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. Then, did you tell the people at the police station that he was a white man, or did they make a mistake when they wrote that down here?

Mr. Euins. They must have made a mistake, because I told them I could see a white spot on his head.

Mr. Specter. Now, is there anything else in this statement, Amos, which is different from the way you remember this event, as you are sitting here right now?

Amos, did you understand the last question?

Mr. Euins. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. Did you answer it for us?

Mr. Euins. No, sir; I don't think there is.

Mr. Specter. I don't understand you, Amos. The question I am trying to get at it, as you read that statement over now, you have testified or told us here today what you remember about this assassination?

Mr. Euins. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. And I am asking you, when you read that statement over, is there anything on that statement which you think is wrong, based on what you remember right now?

For example, you told us that they were wrong when they wrote down that you identified him as a white man. Were they wrong about anything else that they wrote down?

Mr. Euins. Not that I can see.

Mr. Specter. All right.

When you looked up and saw this man, Amos, did he have on a hat?

Mr. Euins. No, sir.

Mr. Specter. Did you notice any boxes behind him at that time, Amos?

Mr. Euins. Yes, sir; there were some boxes, you know, all the side of the window. Like this window—there were some boxes in these windows up here.

Mr. Specter. You saw some boxes in these windows?

Mr. Euins. In these windows, and these windows, and there was boxes in half of this one.

Mr. Specter. All right.

209 Now, mark the windows where you saw those boxes, Amos. Start off with—mark the window "Y" where you saw boxes.

(Witness marking.)

Mr. Specter. You made a figure 9, as I read it, on the two places you saw boxes in the windows.

Mr. Euins. Yes, sir; in this half.

Mr. Specter. Now, were there boxes in the window marked "X"?

Mr. Euins. Yes, sir. There were about two or three of them right along here.

Mr. Specter. Indicating the middle dividing line there?

Mr. Euins. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. Was that window marked "X" opened, Amos, or closed?

Mr. Euins. It was open.

Mr. Specter. How far open was it?

Mr. Euins. About that high.

Mr. Specter. Indicating about 19 inches?

Mr. Euins. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. And was the window in the other double window immediately next to the window marked "X" open or closed?

Mr. Euins. The top window, on the sixth floor?

Mr. Specter. I am referring to the window right next to it.

Mr. Euins. No, sir; it was not open.

Mr. Specter. Amos, when you heard the first shot, did you have any reaction or impression as to where the noise was coming from at that exact time?

Mr. Euins. No, sir; not at the exact time. You know, because everybody else started looking around. So I just started looking around, thinking it was a backfire, just like everyone else.

Mr. Specter. Did you look up towards that window before the second shot, or just when the second shot occurred?

Mr. Euins. I think—just a little before, because as soon as I did, I looked at it—pow.

Mr. Specter. You heard a pow?

Mr. Euins. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. Now, as you were watching and heard, did you have the impression that the noise you heard was coming from that rifle?

Mr. Euins. No, sir; I didn't, because I wasn't thinking of the rifle at first—you know, because it looked like a pipe at first.

Mr. Specter. When you say the second—when you heard the second shot, when you say you were looking at the rifle, did you have the feeling that the noise came from the rifle when you heard the second shot, when you were looking at it?

Mr. Euins. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. Specter. Well, did you have any impression at all about where the noise was coming from?

Mr. Euins. No, sir; not on the first shot.

Mr. Specter. How about the second shot?

Mr. Euins. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. Where did you think the noise was coming from on the second shot?

Mr. Euins. I seen him shoot on the second shot.

Mr. Specter. So you thought the noise was coming from the rifle on the second shot?

Mr. Euins. Yes, sir.

The Chairman. Did you say you thought, or saw?

Mr. Euins. I saw him shoot the second shot.

Mr. Specter. How high were those boxes behind him, Amos?

Mr. Euins. They was probably about 2 feet high stacked in the back of him.

Mr. Specter. Amos, were you questioned later by the FBI?

Mr. Euins. Yes, sir; over in the office.

Mr. Specter. How many times were you questioned by the FBI?

Mr. Euins. Oh, once.

Mr. Specter. Do you remember when that was?

210 Mr. Euins. It was around about 2 or 3 o'clock.

Mr. Specter. Do you remember how many days after the assassination it was?

Mr. Euins. About 4.

Mr. Specter. You think they might have talked to you more than once?

Mr. Euins. No, sir.

Mr. Specter. Mr. Chief Justice, I move for the admission into evidence of the statement marked Commission Exhibit 367.

The Chairman. That may be admitted.

(The document heretofore marked for identification as Commission Exhibit No. 367 was received in evidence.)

Mr. Specter. That concludes the questioning I have, sir.

The Chairman. Mr. Wright?

Mr. Wright. Nothing further, Mr. Chief Justice.

Mr. Specter. Mr. Chief Justice, I would like to move for the admission into evidence of all the exhibits here—365, 366, as well as 367.

The Chairman. Very well.

(The documents heretofore marked for identification as Commission Exhibits Nos. 365 and 366, were received in evidence.)

The Chairman. Amos, you may be excused, then. Thank you very much for coming and helping us out with your testimony.

We will recess until tomorrow morning at 9 o'clock.


Wednesday, March 11, 1964
TESTIMONY OF BUELL WESLEY FRAZIER, LINNIE MAE RANDLE, AND CORTLANDT CUNNINGHAM

The President's Commission met at 9:45 a.m. on March 11, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C.

Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Senator John Sherman Cooper and Representative Gerald R. Ford, members.

Also present were J. Lee Rankin, general counsel; Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel; David W. Belin, assistant counsel; Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel; Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel; Norman Redlich, assistant counsel; Charles Murray and Lewis E. Powell, Jr., observers.

TESTIMONY OF BUELL WESLEY FRAZIER

The Chairman. The Commission will be in order.

Mr. Ball. I would like to assign Commission Exhibit No. 364 to a paper sack which the FBI has identified as their C-109 Exhibit. That will be the Commission's Exhibit No. 364 for identification at this time.

The Chairman. All right.

(The paper sack referred to was marked Commission's Exhibit No. 364 for identification.)

Mr. Ball. Also for the record I would like to announce that prior to—this morning, Mr. Cortlandt Cunningham and Charles Killion of the Federal Bureau of Investigation laboratory, the Ballistics Division, Firearms Division, I guess it is, broke down, that is unscrewed Commission Exhibit No. 139, an Italian rifle, and that rifle has been placed in, after being disassembled, has been placed in Commission's No. 364 for identification, that paper sack.

The Chairman. All right.

Mr. Ball. We have also here before the Commission, Commission No. 142 which is a paper sack which is identified as the FBI's Exhibit No. 10. I think that has its number, exhibit number on it.

211 I have been informed that was 142. My notes show that the brown paper sack is 142.

I think we can call the witness now.

The Chairman. All right; would you call Mr. Frazier, please.

Raise your right hand to be sworn, please.

Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give before this Commission will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. Frazier. I do.

The Chairman. Will you be seated, please?

Mr. Frazier. Yes, sir.

The Chairman. Mr. Joseph Ball of our staff will examine you, Mr. Frazier, but I would like to read a very short statement concerning the purpose of the meeting.

The purpose of today's hearing is to hear the testimony of Buell Wesley Frazier, and Linnie Mae Randle. The Commission has been advised that these two witnesses have stated that they saw Lee Harvey Oswald on the morning of November 22, 1963. The Commission proposes to ask these witnesses questions concerning their knowledge of the assassination of President Kennedy.

You have a copy of this, have you not?

Mr. Frazier. Yes, sir.

The Chairman. All right, you may proceed, Mr. Ball.

Mr. Ball. You call yourself Buell or Wesley?

Mr. Frazier. I go by Wesley.

Mr. Ball. Well, Wesley, what is your age?

Mr. Frazier. Sir?

Mr. Ball. What is your age?

Mr. Frazier. Nineteen.

Mr. Ball. Where do you live?

Mr. Frazier. For the time being I am living in Irving now.

Mr. Ball. Irving, Tex.?

Mr. Frazier. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. What is the address where you live?

Mr. Frazier. 2439 West Fifth Street.

Mr. Ball. Did you live there in November 1963?

Mr. Frazier. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. Ball. And who lives in that house with you?

Mr. Frazier. My sister and brother-in-law and their three children.

Mr. Ball. Will you state their names, your sister's name?

Mr. Frazier. Linnie Mae Randle and my brother-in-law. I believe his real name is William Edward Randle. We call him Bill. They have three little girls, Diana, Patricia and Caroline Sue.

Mr. Ball. Where does your mother live?

Mr. Frazier. She lives in Huntsville.

Mr. Ball. Where is that?

Mr. Frazier. That is about 200 miles south of Dallas there.

Mr. Ball. What is the name of the town?

Mr. Frazier. Town, you mean where my mother lives? Huntsville.

Mr. Ball. Huntsville?

Mr. Frazier. Yes, sir; that is about, it is about 70, 80 miles north of Houston.

Mr. Ball. What is your mother's name?

Mr. Frazier. Essie Mae Williams.

Mr. Ball. Was she visiting you and your sister sometime in November 1963?

Mr. Frazier. Yes, sir; she was.

Mr. Ball. How long was she there?

Mr. Frazier. She was there for, I believe, for a period of about 4 or 5 weeks because my stepfather was with her and he got sick and they had to put him in the hospital and he was in the hospital 3 or 4 weeks, somewheres, 4 or 5 weeks because they were there a week before he got sick.

Mr. Ball. Then on November 21 and 22, living with you in this residence at Irving, Tex., were your mother, Mrs. Williams, and your sister, Linnie Mae Randle?

Mr. Frazier. Right.

212 Mr. Ball. And her husband and their three children?

Mr. Frazier. That is right.

Mr. Ball. Where do you work?

Mr. Frazier. Work at Texas School Books.

Mr. Ball. How long have you worked there?

Mr. Frazier. I have been working there since September.

Mr. Ball. September of 1963?

Mr. Frazier. Correct.

Mr. Ball. What kind of work do you do there?

Mr. Frazier. I fill orders.

Mr. Ball. How did you happen to get that job?

Mr. Frazier. Well, I went to see, first I come up there and started looking for a job and couldn't find one myself so I went to one of these employment agencies and through that a lady called up one morning, I was fixing to go out and look for one, I was looking for myself in the meantime when they were, too, and so she called up and gave me a tip to it if I was interested in a job like that I could go over there and see about that and for the time being I wasn't working and needed some money and so I did and I went over there and saw Mr. Truly, and he gave me an interview, and then he hired me the same day I went over there.

Mr. Ball. You say you came up, you mean you came up from Huntsville?

Mr. Frazier. That is right; yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. That was in September 1963?

Mr. Frazier. Yes, sir; it was.

Mr. Ball. Looking for a job around Dallas?

Mr. Frazier. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Did you go to live with your sister at that time?

Mr. Frazier. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. Ball. What—where is the employment agency and what is its name when you first applied for a job?

Mr. Frazier. Well, I went to several but, see, this one got me this job the main one was Massey, the employment agency, and it is over there on Shady Grove Road.

Mr. Ball. In Dallas?

Mr. Frazier. No, sir; in Irving.

Mr. Ball. How do you spell that name, the name of the employment agency?

Mr. Frazier. Massey?

Mr. Ball. Yes.

Mr. Frazier. I believe it is M-a-s-s-e-y.

Mr. Ball. And it was a woman at the employment agency that called you and told you to go to see the Texas School Book Depository?

Mr. Frazier. Yes, right.

Mr. Ball. And you went to see Mr. Truly and after an interview he gave you a job?

Mr. Frazier. Correct.

Mr. Ball. Then you started work there about what date in September?

Mr. Frazier. It was the 13th. I say that was the same day I went for an interview. I went early enough that morning that he told me to come back after lunch.

Mr. Ball. And you are still working there?

Mr. Frazier. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. When Mr. Truly hired you did he tell you it would be a full-time job or just a temporary job?

Mr. Frazier. No, sir; he told me that he was looking for somebody full time and I told him, well, that is what I wanted, and so he said that would be just fine.

Mr. Ball. How much did he start to pay you?

Mr. Frazier. He started me off with a dollar and a quarter an hour.

Mr. Ball. That is for an eight-hour day?

Mr. Frazier. Right. Five days a week.

Mr. Ball. Did you commute back and forth from your sister's home in Irving?

Mr. Frazier. Over there to the Texas School Books?

Mr. Ball. To the Texas School Book Depository.

213 Mr. Frazier. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. From the first day?

Mr. Frazier. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. And you still do?

Mr. Frazier. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Do you own a car?

Mr. Frazier. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Your own car?

Mr. Frazier. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. You had it, did you, when you started to work?

Mr. Frazier. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Still have it?

Mr. Frazier. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. And you have been since September driving that car from your sister's home in Irving over to the Texas School Book Depository?

Mr. Frazier. Correct.

Mr. Ball. Go there in the morning?

Mr. Frazier. Right.

Mr. Ball. What time do you get to work?

Mr. Frazier. I get there around 8 o'clock.

Mr. Ball. When do you quit?

Mr. Frazier. I quit at 4:45.

Mr. Ball. Then you drive home?

Mr. Frazier. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. How long for lunch?

Mr. Frazier. 45 minutes.

Mr. Ball. Do all the employees have the same lunch hour?

Mr. Frazier. Now, the ones who work down there filling book orders around where I work now, so we all work the same hours. Some people work up there in the offices, I hear that they come in a little bit later. Now, I don't know for sure but I see primarily the ones who does the same type of work I do, we all start the same time and work the same time.

Mr. Ball. Those are the people who fill the orders?

Mr. Frazier. Right.

Mr. Ball. How far is it in miles from your sister's home to Texas School Book Depository?

Mr. Frazier. It is roughly around 15 miles.

Mr. Ball. And did you take the same route every day?

Mr. Frazier. You mean since I have been going over there; since the first day?

Mr. Ball. That is right.

Mr. Frazier. Up to now?

Mr. Ball. Yes, right.

Mr. Frazier. No, sir; I didn't.

You see, I found two ways, you can more judge by the traffic and you can go some days one way and the traffic will be easier than others, but most times I use just one route.

Mr. Ball. What route did you usually use?

Mr. Frazier. Used one like you go down from the house there.

Mr. Ball. Yes.

Mr. Frazier. Go down and right Storey Road, see Fifth Street is just one block off Storey Road, and just go down and hit Storey Road and stay on it until you come to Stemmons Freeway and you stay right on Stemmons until you come right on into Dallas there.

Mr. Ball. About what length of time does it take you to go from your sister's home to work in the morning?

Mr. Frazier. Usually, I usually leave not any later than 7:25. I usually try to leave about 7:20, and if you leave at 7:20, you usually get around there, by the time you get down to the parking lot now it is usually pretty close to 5 minutes to 8 and that gives you enough time to walk to the Book Depository, put up your lunch and take off your coat.

Mr. Ball. Did you have a place to park your car?

Mr. Frazier. Yes, sir.

214 Mr. Ball. Was it assigned to you by Mr. Truly?

Mr. Frazier. No, sir; he just said we had a parking lot there and showed me where it was and said you can park in the parking lot.

Mr. Ball. Was that the parking lot two or three blocks from the building.

Mr. Frazier. Yes, sir, it is down there; right across from the warehouse there.

Mr. Ball. Then you would walk from there from that parking lot——

Mr. Frazier. Up to the other Depository up there at the corner of Houston and Main.

Mr. Ball. We have here a map which has been marked as Commission's Exhibit No. 361.

Mr. Frazier. I see.

Mr. Ball. And north is to the bottom of the map.

Mr. Frazier. Yes.

Mr. Ball. Instead of the top, as usually the case.

Mr. Frazier. Right.

Mr. Ball. It has two pictures over here, one to the left and one to the right of the map.

Mr. Frazier. Right.

Mr. Ball. Let's take a look at the picture to the right of the map. Do you recognize that area?

Mr. Frazier. Yes, sir; I do.

Mr. Ball. What is it?

Mr. Frazier. I see that is right there where you say that is the street going up to the parking lot there.

Mr. Ball. Do you recognize this car?

Mr. Frazier. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. What car is that?

Mr. Frazier. That is my car.

Mr. Ball. Is that where you usually park every day?

Mr. Frazier. Well, I would say at the time being when I first started to work there I first started to park there but now I park on the other side of the fence there.

Mr. Ball. But that is a picture of the parking lot, is it?

Mr. Frazier. Right.

Mr. Ball. Where you park is in the parking lot?

Mr. Frazier. Yes, sir. I park inside the fence but what I am talking about—I park on the different side of the lot.

Mr. Ball. Different side of the same lot?

Mr. Frazier. Yes, sir; we just have one lot there.

Mr. Ball. Do you see the Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mr. Frazier. Yes, sir; right there.

Mr. Ball. And you walked from about the place where your car is parked?

Mr. Frazier. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Usually up to the Depository Building?

Mr. Frazier. Right, correct.

Mr. Ball. Now, the map to the left, upper left-hand corner of the map, there is a picture.

Mr. Frazier. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Do you see this area where I point my finger which is marked "parking lot No. 1."

Mr. Frazier. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. What is that?

Mr. Frazier. That is the same parking lot we were looking at right here.

Mr. Ball. What route do you walk, which way do you walk when you park in this parking lot No. 1, to the Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mr. Frazier. Do you want me to get up to where I can show it to you?

Mr. Ball. Yes; show it to us.

Mr. Frazier. I usually always come up, you know, you can come right, you see the building right down here, and you notice a series of railroad tracks, so usually early in the morning, now about 8 o'clock there is usually not any cars right here, but I say they are switching back and forth.

Mr. Ball. By "cars" you mean railroad cars?

Mr. Frazier. Yes, sir; they usually start switching around 8 o'clock. Usually,215 there are not any cars, it is usually a long train that moves up pretty soon but I usually move up in this direction here, especially when it is dry. When it is wet I walk on this because it is harder. But when it is raining, I usually walk around here, because in this area right here, when you get up closer to the railroad tracks it has more trenches, and it gets muddy and slimy and you can get bogged down.

So, when it is bad weather, I usually walk on this side. But I say nine times out of ten I come up right down here.

Mr. Ball. Let's look at the map. Here is the parking lot here, is that the parking lot where you usually park?

Mr. Frazier. Yes, sir; it is.

Mr. Ball. This is parking lot No. 1.

Mr. Frazier. That is parking lot No. 1, isn't it?

Mr. Ball. Right.

Mr. Frazier. Right.

Mr. Ball. We will show you this map later, but just to illustrate, how do you usually, what is the route you usually take, just show us on the board here, the route you usually take to the Texas School Book Depository Building in the morning?

Mr. Frazier. You mean when I am coming off of the freeway?

Mr. Ball. After you park here.

Mr. Frazier. You know right here, you say like the car, you notice that little house right there, I assume you have checked off. You know like I was telling you now. I usually park over in this corner. But at the time I parked right there. But anyway, there is a little cyclone fence and this was the series of railroad tracks, I was talking to you about.

Mr. Ball. That is right.

Mr. Frazier. I usually come down here.

Mr. Ball. Munger Street?

Mr. Frazier. That is right, and usually cross along the railroad tracks and come up here.

Mr. Ball. Houston Street?

Mr. Frazier. Houston runs into it, now they are doing some work across the tracks and you can't go any further than the tracks, right along here this line, cyclone, but that type of fence and I usually walk right up, you know.

Mr. Ball. To the buildings?

Mr. Frazier. Right.

Mr. Ball. And enter the rear of the building?

Mr. Frazier. Yes, sir.

Now, we call it a loading zone out there, dock area.

Mr. Ball. Fine.

Did anyone else ride with you in the morning, usually did anyone else ride with you in the morning from home to work?

Mr. Frazier. No, sir; they didn't.

Mr. Ball. Did anybody ride with you from work to home?

Mr. Frazier. No, sir; they didn't.

Mr. Ball. When did you first hear of Lee Harvey Oswald, first hear the name?

Mr. Frazier. I first heard, I never really did know his name, we just called him Lee around there. But the first time I ever saw him was the first day he come to work.

Mr. Ball. Had you heard he was coming to work before he came to work?

Mr. Frazier. I will say, you know, talking back and forth with the bossman all the time and from being around and getting along real fine and so he told me, I assume the day after he hired him that he was going to have him come in on Monday and he asked me had I ever seen him and I told him then no; I had never seen him.

(At this point, Representative Ford entered the hearing room.)

Mr. Ball. Had your sister told you that this fellow Lee was coming to work?

Mr. Frazier. Yes; she did. She said one afternoon when I went home she told me she found out from one of the neighbors there he came over for that interview with Mr. Truly and Mr. Truly had hired him.

Mr. Ball. You heard that from your sister?

216 Mr. Frazier. Yes.

Mr. Ball. Before you saw him?

Mr. Frazier. Right, before I saw him.

Mr. Ball. When you first saw him was it a Monday morning?

Mr. Frazier. Yes; it was.

Mr. Ball. Do you have any idea of the date itself, do you have any memory of the date when you first saw him?

Mr. Frazier. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. Ball. Was it sometime around the middle of October, do you think, would that be close to it?

Mr. Frazier. It could have been because it was sometime in October because I remember I went to work there on the 13th and I had been working there, 4 or 5 weeks and then he come there.

Mr. Ball. Where was he when you first saw him?

Mr. Frazier. I first saw him he was—we have a table not as large as this, but just about half as large as this, and we have just like you walk up to it where I am sitting over here and we have four or five boxes there and we have different names on it, you know, for different publishing companies, and he was there getting some orders, and I say, as well as I remember, I said, the foreman there was getting him out some real easy orders. Some of the orders we have are real easy to fill, easier than the others, you don't have to know so much about the textbooks to be able to fill them and he was getting some of them easy ones out to start on, when we have a great number of them, you see, the little pamphlet type books and all we do is count them out and read the invoice number.

Mr. Ball. What was the name of the foreman showing him?

Mr. Frazier. You mean the foreman, that was Mr. Shelly.

Mr. Ball. S-h-e-d?

Mr. Frazier. S-h-e-l-l-y.

Mr. Ball. Shelly.

What floor was this on?

Mr. Frazier. It was on the first floor there.

Mr. Ball. Did Shelly introduce you to him or did you go up and shake hands with him?

Mr. Frazier. No, sir; he didn't. I remember, I knew, you know that he was going to be coming to work so naturally I hadn't been there very long, you know, living in Dallas and so I wanted to make friends with everybody I could, because you know yourself friendship is something you can't buy with money and you always need friends, so I went up and introduced himself to myself, and he told me his name was Lee and I said "We are glad to have you."

We got talking back and forth and he come to find out I knew his wife was staying down there at the time with this other woman and so I thought he would go out there and I said, "Are you going to be going home this afternoon?"

And he told me then, he told me that he didn't have a car, you know, and so I told him, I said, "Well, I live out there in Irving,"—I found out he lived out there and so I said, "Any time you want to go just let me know."

So I thought he would go home every day like most men do but he told me no, that he wouldn't go home every day and then he asked me could he ride home say like Friday afternoon on weekends and come back on Monday morning and I told him that would be just fine with me.

I told him if he wanted a ride any other time just let me know before I go off and leave him because when it comes to quitting time some of these guys, you know, some of them mess around the bathroom and some of them quit early and some of them like that and some leave at different times than others.

But I said from talking to him then, I say, he just wanted to ride home on weekends with me and I said that was fine.

Mr. Ball. Did he say at that time he was living in Dallas, he had a room in Dallas?

Mr. Frazier. Yes, sir; he did. He had an apartment.

217 Mr. Ball. Did he say where?

Mr. Frazier. No, sir; he didn't. He just said he had an apartment over in Dallas.

Mr. Ball. Had you known his wife before that? Had you ever met his wife, Marina Oswald?

Mr. Frazier. No, sir; I never had.

Mr. Ball. Had you heard that a Russian girl was staying there in the neighborhood?

Mr. Frazier. Well, I say about this time I met him, you know, I knew that at the time then but I didn't think anything about it because, you know, the people travel from one country to the next all the time.

Mr. Ball. Did you know Mrs. Paine, Ruth Paine?

Mr. Frazier. No, sir; I didn't until all this had happened because I will be frank with you, people around there, I say, they just don't make friends very easy. I say you can have somebody living three doors from you and you can live a couple of years and you still might not know the name.

Mr. Ball. And you had never met Mrs. Ruth Paine before the day you met Lee Oswald?

Mr. Frazier. No.

Mr. Ball. What kind of work did Lee do, what kind of work was assigned to him?

Mr. Frazier. He filled orders like I do and several other men.

Mr. Ball. How many order fillers were there employed at that time?

Mr. Frazier. Oh, I would say roughly around five, six at that time. Because about the time we was real busy, the busy season. I come there, you know, and they was going pretty good when I went to work there and I say we were still going pretty good when he come to work there.

We had a lot of work to do and usually when we have a lot of work to do we have more order fillers.

Mr. Ball. Did he ride home with you in your car on weekends?

Mr. Frazier. Yes, sir; he did.

Mr. Ball. On Friday nights.

Mr. Frazier. Right.

Mr. Ball. From that time until November 22, did he ride home with you every weekend?

Mr. Frazier. No, sir; he did every weekend but one.

Mr. Ball. Do you remember that date?

Mr. Frazier. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. Ball. In the statement you made I believe you said it was the 16th and 17th of November. I am just reminding you of that.

Does it refresh your memory any?

Mr. Frazier. I remember one weekend, I say, right now I can't recall because just to be frank with you I couldn't tell you roughly; I say I might have at that time but I say it slipped my mind but the thing is I do know he rode home with me every weekend up to that but one.

Mr. Ball. And why did—did he tell you why he wasn't going to ride home that weekend?

Mr. Frazier. Yes, he did. He said he was working on his driving license and he was going to go take a driving test.

Mr. Ball. Did you ever ask him afterward if he had taken his driver's test?

Mr. Frazier. No, sir; I never did. I assumed that he had taken it and passed it what part of the test he was taking.

Most men do, I say, they usually work at it, study at it good enough so they don't flunk out.

Representative Ford. Do you have to get a learner's permit in Texas before you can get a driver's permit?

Mr. Frazier. No, sir; I say, you don't. Just two steps to it. I say, first no matter what age you are; say, when you have to be at least 14 is about the youngest you can get it in Texas and then you have to take a DE, Driver's Education, if you are going to school but otherwise, the age is 16 and you just go around to the driving license bureau there, they have an office in most any218 town of any size in Texas, and you just go in and see the driving license man and just tell him that you plan to take your driving test and you would like to have the auto manual, and the manual covers any laws and so forth in the State of Texas, and you can either study for your operator's or your commercial and you pick out which one you want, and you study up for it and then he is there, he tells you what days he is in his office, and so he goes there a certain time and he gives you several sheets of paper, a quiz and you answer them questions, and if you—you have to make a grade of 70 on it to pass and if you make a grade of 70 or above, well, I say, in another week or two you go down there and you say like for instance if you are going to want a driver's license for a car——

Representative Ford. Did Lee ever ask you or did Lee ever tell you whether he had ever actually applied for a driver's license?

Mr. Frazier. No, sir; he never had, except I told you that weekend that he said he was going down to take his driving test, and so I knew from being in the State of Texas that you have to know something; you have to have the manuals and so forth to study up on it. Or there isn't any use going down there if you don't know the rules because you are not wasting any time but your own.

Mr. Ball. Do you remember whether or not one weekend that he didn't go down with you but he rode back with you, say, on the Armistice Day ho