The Project Gutenberg eBook of Warren Commission (1 of 26): Hearings Vol. I, by Warren Commission.

Transcriber's note: A three-page list of Exhibit numbers has been omitted from this eBook.

Cover created by Transcriber and placed in the Public Domain.

INVESTIGATION OF
THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY

HEARINGS
Before the President's Commission
on the Assassination
of President Kennedy

Pursuant To Executive Order 11130, an Executive order creating a Commission to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of the late President John F. Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of the man charged with the assassination and S.J. Res. 137, 88th Congress, a concurrent resolution conferring upon the Commission the power to administer oaths and affirmations, examine witnesses, receive evidence, and issue subpenas

For sale in complete sets by the Superintendent of Documents, U.S. Government Printing Office
Washington, D.C., 20402

PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION
ON THE
ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT KENNEDY

Biographical information on the Commissioners and the staff can be found in the Commission's Report.

A Mr. Willens also acted as liaison between the Commission and the Department of Justice.

Foreword

On November 29, 1963, President Lyndon B. Johnson signed Executive Order No. 11130, creating a Commission "to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of the late President John F. Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of the man charged with the assassination." By the same Executive order, the President appointed seven Commissioners: Earl Warren, Chief Justice of the United States; Richard B. Russell, Democratic Senator from Georgia; John Sherman Cooper, Republican Senator from Kentucky; Hale Boggs, Democratic Congressman from Louisiana and House Majority Whip; Gerald R. Ford, Republican Congressman from Michigan; Allen W. Dulles, former Director of the Central Intelligence Agency; and John J. McCloy, former High Commissioner of Germany. The President designated Chief Justice Warren as the Commission's Chairman. The findings of the Commission, based on an examination of all the facts, are set forth in the separate volume entitled "Report of the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy."

An essential part of the investigation conducted by this Commission has been the securing of sworn testimony from witnesses possessing information relevant to the inquiry. This testimony has been taken under the authority of Senate Joint Resolution 137 (88th Cong., 1st sess.), enacted by Congress on December 13, 1963, which conferred upon the Commission the power to administer oaths and affirmations, examine witnesses, receive evidence, and issue subpenas. Under the procedures adopted by the Commission, some witnesses have appeared before members of the Commission, others have been questioned under oath on depositions by members of the staff, and others have provided affidavits to the Commission. Beginning with its first witness on February 3, 1964, the Commission under these procedures took the testimony of approximately 550 witnesses and received more than 3,100 exhibits into evidence.

The testimony and exhibits obtained by the Commission are printed in this and the succeeding volumes, organized in the following order:

The transcripts of this testimony, prepared by qualified court reporters, were reviewed by members of the Commission staff and, in most instances, by the witness concerned. Editing of the transcript prior to printing in these volumes was confined to correction of stenographic errors and punctuation, and minor changes designed to improve the clarity and accuracy of the testimony. In the few cases indicated, brief deletions have been made of material which might be considered in poor taste and is clearly irrelevant to any facet of the Commission's investigation. All the original transcripts prepared by the court reporters, of course, have been preserved and will be available for inspection under the same rules and regulations which will apply to all records of this Commission.

vi Each volume contains a brief preface discussing the contents of the volume. In addition, each volume of testimony contains a table of contents with the names of the witnesses whose testimony appears in the volume, and the numbers of the exhibits introduced in connection with that testimony. Each volume of exhibits contains a table of contents with short descriptions of the exhibits reproduced in the volume. Volume XV contains a name index setting forth all references to persons (other than Lee Harvey Oswald) appearing in the Hearings volumes and an index setting forth all references to Commission exhibits and Deposition exhibits in these volumes.

Preface

The testimony of the following witnesses is contained in volume I: Mrs. Marina Oswald, the widow of Lee Harvey Oswald; Mrs. Marguerite Oswald, Oswald's mother; Robert Edward Lee Oswald, Oswald's brother; and James Herbert Martin, who acted for a brief period as Mrs. Marina Oswald's business manager.

COMMISSION EXHIBITS INTRODUCED

Hearings Before the President's Commission
on the
Assassination of President Kennedy

Monday, February 3, 1964
TESTIMONY OF MRS. LEE HARVEY OSWALD

The President's Commission met at 10:35 a.m. on February 3, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C.

Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Senator John Sherman Cooper, Representative Hale Boggs, Representative Gerald R. Ford, and Allen W. Dulles, members.

Also present were J. Lee Rankin, general counsel; John M. Thorne, attorney for Mrs. Lee Harvey Oswald; William D. Krimer and Leon I. Gopadze, interpreters.

The Commission will come to order, and at this time, I will make a short statement for the purpose of the meeting. A copy of this statement has been given to counsel for Mrs. Oswald, but for the record, I should like to read it.

On November 29, 1963, President Lyndon B. Johnson issued Executive Order No. 11130 appointing a Commission "to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of the late President John F. Kennedy, and the subsequent violent death of the man charged with the assassination."

On December 13, 1963, Congress adopted Joint Resolution S.J. 137 which authorizes the Commission, or any member of the Commission or any agent or agency designated by the Commission for such purpose to administer oaths and affirmations, examine witnesses, and receive evidence.

The Chairman. I understood they have a copy and if they want to at the end he may do that.

On January 21, 1964, the Commission adopted a resolution authorizing each member of the Commission and its General Counsel, J. Lee Rankin, to administer oaths and affirmations, examine witnesses, and receive evidence concerning any matter under investigation by the Commission.

The purpose of this hearing is to take the testimony of Mrs. Marina Oswald, the widow of Lee Harvey Oswald who, prior to his death, was charged with the assassination of President Kennedy. Since the Commission is inquiring fully into the background of Lee Harvey Oswald and those associated with him, it is the intention of the Commission to ask Mrs. Marina Oswald questions concerning Lee Harvey Oswald and any and all matters relating to the assassination. The Commission also intends to ask Mrs. Marina Oswald questions relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mrs. Marina Oswald has been furnished with a copy of this statement and a copy of the rules adopted by the Commission for the taking of testimony or the production of evidence. Mrs. Marina Oswald has also been furnished with a copy of Executive Order No. 11130 and Congressional Resolution S.J. Res. 137 which set forth the general scope of the Commission's inquiry and its authority for the examining witnesses and the receiving of evidence.

The Chairman. And may I ask you, Mr. Thorne, if you have received a copy of this?

(The Chairman administered the oath to the witness, Mrs. Oswald, through the interpreter.)

(The Chairman administered the oath to the interpreter and the stenotype reporter, following which all questions propounded to the witness and her answers thereto, were duly translated through the interpreter.)

The Chairman. Now, Mr. Thorne and Mrs. Oswald, I want to say to you that we want to see that Mrs. Oswald's rights are protected in every manner and you are entitled to converse with her at any time that you desire. You are entitled to give her any advice that you want, either openly or in private; if you feel that her rights are not being protected you are entitled to object to the Commission and have a ruling upon it, and at the conclusion of her testimony if you have any questions that you would like to ask her in verification of what she has said you may feel free to ask them.

After her testimony has been completed, a copy will be furnished to you so that if there are any errors, corrections or omissions you may call it to our attention, is that satisfactory to you?

The Chairman. I might say also to her we propose to ask her questions for about 1 hour, and then take a short recess for her refreshment, and then we will convene again until about 12:30. At 12:30 we will recess until 2 o'clock, and then we may take her to her hotel where she can see her baby and have a little rest, and we will return at 2 o'clock, and we will take evidence until about 4:30. If at any time otherwise you should feel tired or feel that you need a rest, you may feel free to say so and we will take care of it.

The Chairman. The questions will be asked of you by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, who is the general counsel of the Commission.

Mr. Rankin. Mrs. Oswald, you be at your ease, and the interpreter will tell you what I ask and you take your time about your answers.

Mrs. Oswald. Marina, my name is Marina Nikolaevna Oswald. My maiden name was Prussakova.

Mrs. Oswald. I have two children, two girls, June will be 2 years old in February, and Rachel is 3 months old.

3 Mr. Rankin. Mrs. Oswald, did you write in Russian a story of your experiences in the United States?

Mr. Rankin. Will you describe for the Commission how you prepared this document in Russian that you furnished to us?

Mrs. Oswald. I wrote this document not specifically for this Commission, but merely for myself. Perhaps there are, therefore, not enough facts for your purpose in that document. This is the story of my life from the time I met him in Minsk up to the very last days.

Mr. Rankin. Since your husband's death and even back to the time of the assassination of President Kennedy, you have had a number of interviews with people from the Secret Service and the FBI, have you not?

Mr. Rankin. We have a record of more than 46 such interviews, and I assume you cannot remember the exact number or all that was said in those interviews, is that true?

Mr. Rankin. As far as you can recall now, do you know of anything that is not true in those interviews that you would like to correct or add to?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, I would like to correct some things because not everything was true.

Mr. Rankin. Do you recall some of the information that you gave in those interviews that was incorrect that you would like to correct now? Will you tell us that?

Mrs. Oswald. At the present time, I can't remember any specific instance, but perhaps in the course of your questioning if it comes up I will say so.

Mr. Rankin. Do you recall the date that you arrived in the United States with your husband, Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mrs. Oswald. On the 13th of June, 1962—I am not quite certain as to the year—'61 or '62, I think '62.

Mrs. Oswald. From Moscow via Poland, Germany, and Holland we came to Amsterdam by train. And from Amsterdam to New York by ship, and New York to Dallas by air.

Mrs. Oswald. It was—about noon or 1 p.m., thereabouts. It is hard to remember the exact time.

Mrs. Oswald. We stayed that evening and the next 24 hours in a hotel in New York, and then we left the following day by air.

Mrs. Oswald. I don't know the name of the hotel but it is in the Times Square area, not far from the publishing offices of the New York Times.

Mrs. Oswald. That evening we just walked around the city to take a look at it. In the morning I remained in the hotel while Lee left in order to arrange for tickets, and so forth.

4 Mr. Rankin. Did you visit anyone or have visitors at your hotel during that period?

Mrs. Oswald. We didn't have any visitors but I remember that with Lee we visited some kind of an office, on official business, perhaps it had something to do with immigration or with the tickets. Lee spoke to them in English and I didn't understand it.

Mr. Rankin. Do you know whether or not you or your husband received any financial assistance for the trip to Texas at that time?

Mrs. Oswald. I don't know exactly where Lee got the money, but he said that his brother Robert had given him the money. But the money for the trip from the Soviet Union to New York was given to us by the American Embassy in Moscow.

Mrs. Oswald. In Dallas we were met by the brother, Robert, he lived in Fort Worth, and he took us from Dallas to Fort Worth and we stopped at the house.

Mrs. Oswald. About 1 to 1½ months—perhaps longer, but no longer than 2 months.

Mr. Rankin. Were your relations and your husband's with Robert pleasant at that time?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, they were very good. His brother's relationship to us was very good.

Mr. Rankin. Would you briefly describe what you did during that time when you were at Robert's?

Mrs. Oswald. The first time we got there we were, of course, resting for about a week, and I was busy, of course, with my little girl who was then very little. And in my free time, of course, I helped in the household.

Mr. Rankin. Did your husband do anything around the house or did he seek work right away?

Mrs. Oswald. For about a week he was merely talking and took a trip to the library. That is it.

Mrs. Oswald. While we were with Robert. It seems it was at the end of the second month that Lee found work. But at this time I don't remember the date exactly but his mother who lived in Fort Worth at that time rented a room and she proposed that we spend some time with her, that we live with her for some time.

Mr. Rankin. Did you discuss with your husband this proposal of your mother-in-law to have you live with her?

Mrs. Oswald. Well, she made the proposal to my husband, not to me. Of course, I found out about it.

Mr. Rankin. Did you and he have any discussion about it after you found out about it?

Mr. Rankin. You did move to be with your mother-in-law, lived with her for a time?

5 Mrs. Oswald. Yes, about 3 weeks. And then after 3 weeks Lee did not want to live with her any more and he rented an apartment.

Mrs. Oswald. It seemed peculiar to me and didn't want to believe it but he did not love his mother, she was not quite a normal woman. Now, I know this for sure.

Mrs. Oswald. He talked about it but since he spoke in English to his mother, I didn't understand it. There were quite a few scenes when he would return from work he didn't want to talk to her. Perhaps she thought I was the reason for the fact that Lee did not want to talk to her. And, of course, for a mother this is painful and I told him that he should be more attentive to his mother but he did not change. I think that one of the reasons for this was that she talked a great deal about how much she had done to enable Lee to return from Russia, and Lee felt that he had done most of—the greatest effort in that respect and didn't want to discuss it.

Mrs. Oswald. Of course, if I had been told now I would have remembered it because I have learned some English but at that time I didn't know, but Lee told me that it wasn't far from Mercedes Street where we lived, and it was really common labor connected with some kind of metal work, something for buildings.

Mrs. Oswald. I don't know but it seemed to me that he worked there for about 3 or 4 months. Perhaps longer. Dates are one of my problems.

Mr. Rankin. This was the first time since you had come to this country then that you had an opportunity to have a home of your own, is that right?

Mrs. Oswald. No. I only know that they were books more of a historical nature rather than fiction or literature.

Mr. Rankin. In your story in Russian you relate the fact that he read a great deal of the time. Could you describe to the Commission just how that was? Did he go off by himself to read or how did he handle that?

Mrs. Oswald. He would bring a book from a library, sit in the living room and read. I was busy with housework, and that is the way it happened.

Mr. Rankin. Did you have differences between you about the time that he spent reading rather than devoting it to you or the other members of the family?

Mrs. Oswald. No. We did have quarrels about his relationship to his mother, the fact that he didn't want to change his relationship to his mother. I know that he read so much that when we lived in New Orleans he used to read sometimes all night long and in order not to disturb me he would be sitting in the bathroom for several hours reading.

6 Mr. Rankin. Did your quarrels start at that time when you were at Mercedes Street the first time.

Mr. Rankin. When you were at Mercedes Street did you have Robert visit you or did you visit him?

Mr. Rankin. Do you recall seeing any guns at Mercedes Street while you were there?

Mr. Rankin. Will you describe the relationship between your husband and your mother-in-law while he was at Mercedes Street?

Mrs. Oswald. She did not want us to move away to Mercedes Street, and Lee did not want to remain with her and did not even want her to visit us after that. Lee did not want her to know the address to which we were moving and Robert helped us in the move. I felt very sorry for her. Sometime after that she visited us while Lee was at work and I was quite surprised wondering about how she found out our address. And then we had a quarrel because he said to me, "Why did you open the door for her, I don't want her to come here any more."

Mr. Rankin. During this period did your husband spend much time with the baby, June?

Mrs. Oswald. Lee wanted to buy a television set on credit. He then returned it. Should I speak a little louder?

Mr. Rankin. Did Robert help any with the money or just in guaranteeing the payments?

Mr. Rankin. Were you still at Mercedes Street when he lost his job with the welding company?

Mrs. Oswald. He looked for work for some time but he could not find it and then some Russian friends of ours helped him find some work in Dallas.

Mrs. Oswald. It seems to me it was about 2 weeks; hard to remember, perhaps that long.

Mrs. Oswald. I know it was some kind of a printing company which prepares photographs for newspapers.

Mr. Rankin. Do you know what his income was when he was working for the welding company?

Mrs. Oswald. I think it was about $200 a month, I don't know. I know it was a dollar and a quarter an hour.

7 Mr. Rankin. Do you recall how much he received as pay at the printing company?

Mrs. Oswald. He usually worked until 5 p.m. But sometimes he worked later, and on Saturdays, too.

Mr. Rankin. The ordinary work week at that time was the 5-day week then, and the Saturdays would be an overtime period?

Mr. Rankin. Who were the Russian friends who helped your husband find this job in Dallas?

Mr. Rankin. Did this friend and other Russian friends visit you at Mercedes Street?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes. When we lived at Fort Worth we became acquainted with Peter Gregory, he is a Russian, he lives in Fort Worth and through him we became acquainted with others.

Mr. Rankin. Will you tell us insofar as you recall, the friends that you knew in Fort Worth?

Mrs. Oswald. Our first acquaintance was Gregory. Through him I met Gali Clark, Mrs. Elena Hall. That is all in Fort Worth. And then we met George Bouhe in Dallas, and Anna Meller, and Anna Ray and Katya Ford.

Mr. Rankin. By your answer do you mean that some of those people you met in Dallas and some in Fort Worth?

Mrs. Oswald. George De Mohrenschildt—this was both in Fort Worth and Dallas, the names of my recital but they were well acquainted with each other, even though some lived in Dallas and some lived in Fort Worth.

Mr. Rankin. Will you please sort them out for us and tell us those you met in Dallas?

Mrs. Oswald. You mean by the question, who out of these Russians lives in Dallas?

Mr. Rankin. Or which ones you met in Dallas as distinguished from those you had already met in Fort Worth?

Mrs. Oswald. In Fort Worth I met the people from Dallas. There was George Bouhe, George De Mohrenschildt—no. Anna Meller and George Bouhe only, they were from Dallas, but I met them in Fort Worth.

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, sometimes they came to visit us when they were in Dallas, they came to us. Sometimes they made a special trip to come and see us.

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, when we lived in Fort Worth we went to Dallas several times to visit them.

Mr. Rankin. When you made these visits did you go to spend an evening or a considerable part of the time or were they short visits? Can you describe that?

Mrs. Oswald. We used to come early in the morning and leave at night. We would spend the entire day with them. We went there by bus.

Mr. Rankin. Did you have an automobile of your own at any time during this period?

Mr. Rankin. Did any of these people have meals in your home when they visited you?

Mrs. Oswald. No. They usually brought—they usually came for short visits and they brought their own favorite vegetables such as cucumbers, George liked cucumbers.

Mrs. Oswald. I did not move to Dallas together with Lee. Lee went to Dallas when he found the job, and I remained in Fort Worth and lived with Elena Hall.

8 Mrs. Oswald. He had a job. He was working. He would call me up over the telephone but how he spent his time, I don't know.

Mrs. Oswald. At first, I know that he rented a room in the YMCA but very shortly thereafter he rented an apartment. But where I don't know.

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, two or three times he came to see us because he had no car. It was not very easy.

Mr. Rankin. When you were staying at the Hall's did you pay them for your room and your meals?

Mr. Rankin. What did you and your husband do when he came to see you? Did he spend his time with you there in the home or did you go some place?

Mrs. Oswald. No. I remember that it was only a couple of times that he came for a weekend. Generally, he only came for a very short period of time, because he would come together with our friends, and they could not stay very long.

Mr. Rankin. When he came during that period did he discuss what he had been doing in Dallas, his work and other things?

Mr. Rankin. After this month and a half did he find a place for you all to live together?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, but it wasn't a problem there to find a place, no problem there to find a place.

Mr. Rankin. How did you move your things from Mrs. Hall's to the place on Elsbeth Street?

Mrs. Oswald. A friend who had a car helped us—I don't remember his name, Taylor, Gary Taylor.

The Chairman. Suppose we take a recess now for about 10 minutes to allow Mrs. Oswald to refresh herself.

Mr. Rankin. Did that require one or more trips to move your things from Fort Worth to Dallas when you went to Elsbeth Street?

Mr. Rankin. What kind of place did you have at Elsbeth Street, was it rooms or an apartment?

Mrs. Oswald. One living room, a bedroom, a kitchen, and the bathroom. It sounds very small for all of you but for us it was quite sufficient.

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, and electricity and gas but the water was free. Sixty dollars a month including water.

Mr. Rankin. Can you tell us a little more fully about his reading? Did he spend several hours each evening in this reading?

Mrs. Oswald. No. He had two books, two thick books on the history of the United States.

Mrs. Oswald. Sometimes we went shopping to stores, and movies, though Lee really went to the movies himself. He wanted to take me but I did not understand English. Then on weekends we would go to a lake not far away or to a park or to a cafe for some ice cream.

Mr. Rankin. When you went to the lake or the park did you take food with you and have a picnic?

Mr. Rankin. How did you get to the lake or the park, by bus or car, or what means of transportation?

Mrs. Oswald. It was three days a week. I don't remember exactly what the days were. It seems to me it was 1 day at the beginning of the week and 2 days at the end of the week that he took these night courses.

Mr. Rankin. Would it help you to recall if I suggested they were Monday, Tuesday, and Thursday?

Mr. Rankin. Do you recall what hours of the evening he was supposed to be at these classes?

Mrs. Oswald. When Lee took his courses he generally did not come home for dinner, usually he didn't.

Mrs. Oswald. At home, no. But he had a book, a textbook on typing which he would review when he was at home.

Mr. Rankin. Did he tell you anything about friends that he met at these classes?

Mr. Rankin. While you were at Elsbeth Street do you recall seeing any guns in your apartment?

Mr. Rankin. Do you remember exhibiting any guns to the De Mohrenschildt's while you were at Elsbeth Street?

Mrs. Oswald. That was on Neely Street, perhaps you are confused, this was on Neely Street.

Mr. Rankin. When did you move to Neely Street from the Elsbeth Street apartment?

Mrs. Oswald. I like it better on Neely Street. We had a porch there and that was more convenient for the child.

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, except that it was on the second floor. It was a second-floor apartment.

Mr. Rankin. What about the rent? Was there a difference in rent between the two places?

Mrs. Oswald. No, it was the same rent. It is perhaps even less. It seems to me it was $55.

Mr. Rankin. Did you have any differences with your husband while you were at Neely Street?

Mrs. Oswald. No. Well, there are always some reasons for some quarrel between a husband and wife, not everything is always smooth.

Mr. Rankin. I had in mind if there was any violence or any hitting of you. Did that occur at Neely Street?

Mrs. Oswald. Not quite. I am trying to remember. It seems to me that it was at that time that Lee began to talk about his wanting to return to Russia. I did not want that and that is why we had quarrels.

Mr. Rankin. Did you have discussions between you about this idea of returning to Russia?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes. Lee wanted me to go to Russia. I told him that that—Lee wanted me to go to Russia, and I told him that if he wanted me to go then that meant that he didn't love me, and that in that case what was the idea of coming to the United States in the first place. Lee would say that it would be better for me if I went to Russia. I did not know why. I did not know what he had in mind. He said he loved me but that it would be better for me if I went to Russia, and what he had in mind I don't know.

Mr. Rankin. Do you know when he first started to talk about your going to Russia?

Mr. Rankin. Do you remember any occasion which you thought caused him to start to talk that way?

Mrs. Oswald. Now, I think that I know, although at that time I didn't. I think that he was very nervous and just this somehow relieved his tension.

Mrs. Oswald. I would say that immediately after coming to the United States Lee changed. I did not know him as such a man in Russia.

Mr. Rankin. Will you describe how you observed these changes and what they were as you saw them?

Mrs. Oswald. He helped me as before, but he became a little more of a recluse. He did not like my Russian friends and he tried to forbid me to have anything to do with them.

Mrs. Oswald. I don't know why he didn't like them. I didn't understand. At least that which he said was completely unfounded. He simply said some stupid or foolish things.

Mrs. Oswald. Well, he thought that they were fools for having left Russia; they were all traitors. I would tell him he was in the same position being an American in America but there were really no reasons but just irritation. He said that they all only like money, and everything is measured by money. It11 seems to me that perhaps he was envious of them in the sense they were more prosperous than he was. When I told him, when I would say that to him he did not like to hear that.

Perhaps I shouldn't say these foolish things and I feel kind of uncomfortable to talk about the foolish things that happened or what he said foolish things.

This is one of the reasons why I don't know really the reasons for these quarrels because sometimes the quarrels were just trifles. It is just that Lee was very unrestrained and very explosive at that time.

Mr. Rankin. Mrs. Oswald, we will ask you to be very frank with us. It isn't for the purpose of embarrassing you or your husband that we ask you these things but it might help us to understand and even if you will tell us the foolish and stupid things it may shed some light on the problem. You understand that?

Mrs. Oswald. I understand you are not asking these questions out of curiosity but for a reason.

Mr. Rankin. Did your husband indicate any particular Russian friends that he disliked more than others?

Mrs. Oswald. He liked De Mohrenschildt but he—because he was a strong person, but only De Mohrenschildt. He did not like Bouhe or Anna Meller.

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, I told him all the time that I liked these people and that is why he was angry at me and would tell me that I was just like they were. At one time I left him and went to my friends because he put me into—put me on the spot by saying, "Well, if you like your friends so much then go ahead and live with them," and he left me no choice.

Mrs. Oswald. Yes. I took June and I went to Anna Meller, took a cab and went there. I spent several days with her. Lee didn't know where I was but he called up and about 2 or 3 days after I came to and we met at De Mohrenschildt's house and he asked me to return home. I, of course, did not want a divorce but I told him it would be better to get a divorce rather than to continue living and quarreling this way. After all this is only a burden on a man if two people live together and fight. I simply wanted to show him, too, that I am not a toy. That a woman is a little more complicated. That you cannot trifle with her.

Mr. Rankin. Did you say anything at that time about how he should treat you if you returned?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes. I told him if he did not change his character, then it would become impossible to continue living with him. Because if there should be such quarrels continuously that would be crippling for the children.

Mrs. Oswald. Then he said that it would be—it was very hard for him. That he could not change. That I must accept him, such as he was. And he asked me to come back home with him right on that day but he left feeling bad because I did not go and remained with my friend.

Mrs. Oswald. I told him I was not going to. Of course, such as he was for me he was good, but I wanted simply for the sake of the family that he would correct his character. It isn't that I didn't mean to say he was good for me, I meant to say that I could stand him, but for the sake of the children I wanted him to improve his behavior.

Mrs. Oswald. At that time there was very little room at Anna Meller's and it was very uncomfortable and I left and went to Katya Ford whose husband at that time happened to be out of town on business. I spent several days with Katya Ford but then when her husband returned I did not want to remain with her. And it was on a Sunday morning then when I moved over to Anna Ray. Lee called me and said he wanted to see me, that he had come by bus and he wanted to see me and he came that evening and he cried and said that he12 wanted me to return home because if I did not return he did not want to continue living. He said he didn't know how to love me in any other way and that he will try to change.

Mrs. Oswald. No. I think that you are confused—this was Elena Hall in Fort Worth, she was ill and went to the hospital. It is not very interesting to hear all that. Somewhat boring.

Mr. Rankin. Do you recall the manner in which Lee brought up the idea of your going to Russia alone?

Mrs. Oswald. Quite simply he said it was very hard for him here. That he could not have a steady job. It would be better for me because I could work in Russia. That was all.

Mr. Rankin. Did you understand when he suggested it that he proposed that you go and he stay?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes. Now, I think I know why he had in mind to start his foolish activity which could harm me but, of course, at that time he didn't tell me the reason. It is only now that I understand it. At that time when I would ask him he would get angry because he couldn't tell me.

Mrs. Oswald. I told him at that time that I am agreeable to going if he could not live with me. But he kept on repeating that he wanted to live with me but that it would be better for me, but when I wanted to know the reason he would not tell me.

Mr. Rankin. Is there something that you have learned since that caused you to believe that this suggestion was related to trying to provide for you or to be sure that you wouldn't be hurt by what he was going to do?

Mrs. Oswald. At that time I didn't know this. I only saw that he was in such a state that he was struggling and perhaps did not understand himself. I thought that I was the reason for that.

Mr. Rankin. Were you urging him to earn more so that he could provide more for the family?

Mrs. Oswald. No. I think that my friends had thought, and it was also written in the newspapers that we lived poorly because for Americans $200 appears to be very little. But I have never lived in any very luxurious way and, therefore, for me this was quite sufficient. Some of the others would say, "well here, you don't have a car or don't have this or that." But for me it was sufficient. Sometimes Lee would tell me I was just like my friends, that I wanted to have that which they had. That I preferred them to him because they give me more, but that is not true.

Mr. Rankin. Did you understand when he suggested you return to Russia that he was proposing to break up your marriage?

Mrs. Oswald. I told him that I would go to Russia if he would give me a divorce, but he did not want to give me a divorce.

Mrs. Oswald. He said that if he were to give me a divorce that that would break everything between us, which he didn't want. That he wanted to keep me as his wife, but I told him that if he wants to remain in the United States I want to be free in Russia.

Mrs. Oswald. Not particularly, but the later time he was more excited and more nervous but it was quite a contrast between the way he was in Russia.

Mr. Rankin. By the later time that you just referred to what do you mean? Can you give us some approximate date?

13 The Chairman. I think this is a good time to take our luncheon recess now. So, we will adjourn until 2 o'clock.

Afternoon Session
TESTIMONY OF MRS. LEE HARVEY OSWALD RESUMED

In the future, would you do that, so we can refresh the witness about the last couple of questions on her testimony? I think it will make it easier for her, if she doesn't have to try to remember all the time.

Mr. Rankin. Mrs. Oswald, as I recall you were telling us about these developments at Neely Street when you found that your husband was suggesting that you go back to Russia alone and you discussed that matter, and you thought it had something to do with the idea he had, which I understood you have discovered as you looked back or thought back later but didn't know at the time fully. Is that right?

Mr. Rankin. Could you tell us those things that you observed that caused you to think he had something in mind at that time, and I will ask you later, after you tell us, those that you discovered since or that you have obtained more light on since.

Mrs. Oswald. At that time I did not think anything about it. I had no reasons to think that he had something in mind. I did not understand him at that time.

Mr. Rankin. How did you learn about it? Did you see it some place in the apartment?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, Lee had a small room where he spent a great deal of time, where he read—where he kept his things, and that is where the rifle was.

Mr. Rankin. Was it out in the room at that time, as distinguished from in a closet in the room?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, it was open, out in the open. At first I think—I saw some package up on the top shelf, and I think that that was the rifle. But I didn't know. And apparently later he assembled it and had it in the room.

Mr. Rankin. When you saw the rifle assembled in the room, did it have the scope on it?

Mr. Rankin. Did you have any discussion with your husband about the rifle when you first saw it?

Mrs. Oswald. Of course I asked him, "What do you need a rifle for? What do we need that for?"

He said that it would come in handy some time for hunting. And this was not too surprising because in Russia, too, we had a rifle.

Mrs. Oswald. I don't know the difference. One and the other shoots. You men. That is your business.

Mr. Rankin. Was the rifle later placed in a closet in the apartment at Neely Street?

14 Mrs. Oswald. No, it was always either in a corner, standing up in a corner or on a shelf.

Mr. Rankin. Do you know what happened to the gun that you had in Russia? Was it brought over to this country?

Mrs. Oswald. No, he sold it there. I did not say so when I had the first interviews. You must understand this was my husband. I didn't want to say too much.

Mr. Rankin. Is this rifle at Neely Street the only rifle that you know of that your husband had after you were married to him?

Mrs. Oswald. I know that De Mohrenschildts had said that the rifle had been shown to him, but I don't remember that.

Mr. Rankin. Do you recall your husband taking the rifle away from the apartment on Neely Street at any time?

Mrs. Oswald. You must know that the rifle—it isn't as if it was out in the open. He would hang a coat or something to mask its presence in the room. And sometimes when he walked out, when he went out in the evening I didn't know, because I didn't go into that room very often. I don't know whether he took it with him or not.

Mrs. Oswald. Yes. I said before I had never seen it before. But I think you understand. I want to help you, and that is why there is no reason for concealing anything. I will not be charged with anything.

Mr. Gopadze. She says she was not sworn in before. But now inasmuch as she is sworn in, she is going to tell the truth.

Mr. Rankin. Could you help us by giving some estimate of the times as you remember it?

Mr. Rankin. Did your husband ever tell you why he was cleaning the—that is, that he had been using it and needed to be cleaned after use?

Mrs. Oswald. No, I did not ask him, because I thought it was quite normal that when you have a rifle you must clean it from time to time.

Mr. Rankin. Did you ever observe your husband taking the rifle away from the apartment on Neely Street?

Mrs. Oswald. Now, I think that he probably did sometimes, but I never did see it. You must understand that sometimes I would be in the kitchen and he would be in his room downstairs, and he would say bye-bye, I will be back soon, and he may have taken it. He probably did. Perhaps he purely waited for an occasion when he could take it away without my seeing it.

Mr. Rankin. Did you ever observe that the rifle had been taken out of the apartment at Neely Street—that is, that it was gone?

Mrs. Oswald. Before the incident with General Walker, I know that Lee was preparing for something. He took photographs of that house and he told me not to enter his room. I didn't know about these photographs, but when I came into the room once in general he tried to make it so that I would spend less time in that room. I noticed that quite accidentally one time when I was cleaning the room he tried to take care of it himself.

I asked him what kind of photographs are these, but he didn't say anything to me.

Mr. Rankin. That is the photographs of the Walker house that you were asking about?

Mr. Rankin. Did you learn at any time that he had been practicing with the rifle?

Mrs. Oswald. I think that he went once or twice. I didn't actually see him take the rifle, but I knew that he was practicing.

Mrs. Oswald. He told me. And he would mention that in passing—it isn't15 as if he said, "Well, today I am going"—it wasn't as if he said, "Well, today I am going to take the rifle and go and practice."

Therefore, I don't know whether he took it from the house or whether perhaps he even kept the rifle somewhere outside. There was a little square, sort of a little courtyard where he might have kept it.

When you asked me about the rifle, I said that Lee didn't have a rifle, but he also had a gun, a revolver.

Mrs. Oswald. He had that on Neely Street, but I think that he acquired the rifle before he acquired the pistol. The pistol I saw twice—once in his room, and the second time when I took these photographs.

Mr. Rankin. What period of time was there between when he got the rifle and you learned of it, and the time that you first learned about the pistol?

Mr. Rankin. When you testified about his practicing with the rifle, are you describing a period when you were still at Neely Street?

Mrs. Oswald. I don't know where. I don't know the name of the place where this took place. But I think it was somewhere out of town. It seems to me a place called Lopfield.

Mr. Rankin. So you think he was practicing out in the open and not at a rifle range?

I know a rifle was a rifle. I didn't know whether or not it had a telescope attached to it. But the first time I remember seeing it was in New Orleans, where I recognized the telescope. But probably the telescope was on before. I simply hadn't paid attention.

Mrs. Oswald. That for a man to have a rifle—since I am a woman, I don't understand him, and I shouldn't bother him. A fine life.

Mr. Rankin. Is that the same rifle that you are referring to that you took the picture of with your husband and when he had the pistol, too?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes. I asked him then why he had dressed himself up like that, with the rifle and the pistol, and I thought that he had gone crazy, and he said he wanted to send that to a newspaper. This was not my business—it was man's business.

If I had known these were such dangerous toys, of course—you understand that I thought that Lee had changed in that direction, and I didn't think it was a serious occupation with him, just playing around.

Mr. Rankin. Do you recall the day that you took the picture of him with the rifle and the pistol?

Mrs. Oswald. I think that that was towards the end of February, possibly the beginning of March. I can't say exactly. Because I didn't attach any significance to it at the time. That was the only time I took any pictures.

I don't know how to take pictures. He gave me a camera and asked me—if someone should ask me how to photograph, I don't know.

Mr. Rankin. How did it occur? Did he come to you and ask you to take the picture?

Mrs. Oswald. I was hanging up diapers, and he came up to me with the rifle and I was even a little scared, and he gave me the camera and asked me to press a certain button.

Mr. Rankin. You have examined that picture since, and noticed that the telescopic lens was on at the time the picture was taken, have you not?

Mrs. Oswald. Now I paid attention to it. A specialist would see it immediately, of course. But at that time I did not pay any attention at all. I saw just Lee. These details are of great significance for everybody, but for me at that time it didn't mean anything. At the time that I was questioned, I had even forgotten that I had taken two photographs. I thought there was only one. I thought that there were two identical pictures, but they turned out to be two different poses.

Mr. Rankin. Did you have anything to do with the prints of the photograph after the prints were made? That is, did you put them in a photographic album yourself?

Mrs. Oswald. Lee gave me one photograph and asked me to keep it for June somewhere. Of course June doesn't need photographs like that.

Mrs. Oswald. Two, perhaps three weeks later. I don't know. You know better when this happened.

Mr. Rankin. How did you first learn that your husband had shot at General Walker?

Mrs. Oswald. That evening he went out, I thought that he had gone to his classes or perhaps that he just walked out or went out on his own business. It got to be about 10 or 10:30, he wasn't home yet, and I began to be worried. Perhaps even later.

Then I went into his room. Somehow, I was drawn into it—you know—I was pacing around. Then I saw a note there.

Mrs. Oswald. No, I didn't understand anything. On the note it said, "If I am arrested" and there are certain other questions, such as, for example, the key to the mailbox is in such and such a place, and that he left me some money to last me for some time, and I couldn't understand at all what can he be arrested for. When he came back I asked him what had happened. He was very pale. I don't remember the exact time, but it was very late.

And he told me not to ask him any questions. He only told me that he had shot at General Walker.

Of course I didn't sleep all night. I thought that any minute now, the police will come. Of course I wanted to ask him a great deal. But in his state I decided I had best leave him alone—it would be purposeless to question him.

Mrs. Oswald. Of course in the morning I told him that I was worried, and that we can have a lot of trouble, and I asked him, "Where is the rifle? What did you do with it?"

He said, that he had left it somewhere, that he had buried it, it seems to me, somewhere far from that place, because he said dogs could find it by smell.

Mrs. Oswald. I told him that he had no right to kill people in peacetime, he had no right to take their life because not everybody has the same ideas as he has. People cannot be all alike.

He said that this was a very bad man, that he was a fascist, that he was the leader of a fascist organization, and when I said that even though all of that might be true, just the same he had no right to take his life, he said if someone had killed Hitler in time it would have saved many lives. I told him that this is no method to prove your ideas, by means of a rifle.

Mrs. Oswald. Yes. He said he had been planning for two months. Yes—perhaps he had planned to do so even earlier, but according to his conduct I could tell he was planning—he had been planning this for two months or perhaps a little even earlier.

Mrs. Oswald. Yes. He had a book—he had a notebook in which he noted down quite a few details. It was all in English, I didn't read it. But I noticed the photograph. Sometimes he would lock himself in his room and write in the book. I thought that he was writing some other kind of memoirs, as he had written about his life in the Soviet Union.

Mr. Rankin. Do you know of anything else he had in it besides this Walker house picture?

Mrs. Oswald. It was a map of Dallas, but I don't know where Walker lived. Sometimes evenings he would be busy with this. Perhaps he was calculating something, but I don't know. He had a bus schedule and computed something.

After this had happened, people thought that he had a car, but he had been using a bus.

Mr. Rankin. Did he explain to you about his being able to use a bus just as well as other people could use a car—something of that kind?

Mrs. Oswald. No. Simply as a passenger. He told me that even before that time he had gone also to shoot, but he had returned. I don't know why. Because on the day that he did fire, there was a church across the street and there were many people there, and it was easier to merge in the crowd and not be noticed.

Mr. Rankin. Did you ask him about this note that he had left, what he meant by it?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes—he said he had in mind that if in case he were arrested, I would know what to do.

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, because as soon as he came home I showed him the note and asked him "What is the meaning of this?"

Mr. Rankin. And that is when he gave you the explanation about the Walker shooting?

I know that on a Sunday he took the rifle, but I don't think he fired on a Sunday. Perhaps this was on Friday. So Sunday he left and took the rifle.

Mr. Rankin. If the Walker shooting was on Wednesday, does that refresh your memory as to the day of the week at all?

Mr. Rankin. Did he give any further explanation of what had happened that evening?

Mrs. Oswald. When he fired, he did not know whether he had hit Walker or not. He didn't take the bus from there. He ran several kilometers and then took the bus. And he turned on the radio and listened, but there were no reports.

The next day he bought a paper and there he read it was only chance that saved Walker's life. If he had not moved, he might have been killed.

Mrs. Oswald. He said only that he had taken very good aim, that it was just chance that caused him to miss. He was very sorry that he had not hit him.

I asked him to give me his word that he would not repeat anything like that. I said that this chance shows that he must live and that he should not be shot at again. I told him that I would save the note and that if something like that18 should be repeated again, I would go to the police and I would have the proof in the form of that note.

By the way, several days after that, the De Mohrenschildts came to us, and as soon as he opened the door he said, "Lee, how is it possible that you missed?"

I looked at Lee. I thought that he had told De Mohrenschildt about it. And Lee looked at me, and he apparently thought that I had told De Mohrenschildt about it. It was kind of dark. But I noticed—it was in the evening, but I noticed that his face changed, that he almost became speechless.

You see, other people knew my husband better than I did. Not always—but in this case.

Mr. Rankin. Was De Mohrenschildt a friend that he told—your husband told him personal things that you knew of?

Mrs. Oswald. He asked Lee not because Lee had told him about it, but I think because he is smart enough man to have been able to guess it. I don't know—he is simply a liberal, simply a man. I don't think that he is being accused justly of being a Communist.

Mr. Rankin. Did you tell the authorities anything about this Walker incident when you learned about it?

Mr. Rankin. You have told the Secret Service or the FBI people reasons why you didn't. Will you tell us?

First, because it was my husband. As far as I know, according to the local laws here, a wife cannot be a witness against her husband. But, of course, if I had known that Lee intended to repeat something like that, I would have told.

Mrs. Oswald. He forgot about it. But apparently after that he thought that what he had written in his book might be proof against him, and he destroyed it.

Mr. Rankin. That is this book that you have just referred to in which he had the Walker house picture?

Mr. Rankin. What did you do with the note that he had left for you after you talked about it and said you were going to keep it?

Mrs. Oswald. I had it among my things in a cookbook. But I have two—I don't remember in which.

Mr. Rankin. Did your relations with your husband change after this Walker incident?

Mrs. Oswald. Soon after that, Lee lost his job—I don't know for what reason. He was upset by it. And he looked for work for several days. And then I insisted that it would be better for him to go to New Orleans where he had relatives. I insisted on that because I wanted to get him further removed from Dallas and from Walker, because even though he gave me his word, I wanted to have him further away, because a rifle for him was not a very good toy—a toy that was too enticing.

Mr. Rankin. Did you say that you wanted him to go to New Orleans because of the Walker incident?

Mrs. Oswald. No. I simply told him that I wanted to see his home town. He had been born there.

Mr. Rankin. When he promised you that he would not do anything like that again, did you then believe him?

Mrs. Oswald. I did not quite believe him inasmuch as the rifle remained in the house.

19 Mr. Rankin. After he shot at Walker, did you notice his taking the rifle out any more to practice?

Mrs. Oswald. I think it was in May. Lee went there himself, by himself. At that time, I became acquainted with Mrs. Paine, and I stayed with her while he was looking for work. In about one week Lee telephoned me that he had found a job and that I should come down.

Mr. Rankin. How did you happen to go to Mrs. Paine's house to stay? Did she invite you?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes; she invited me. I had become acquainted with her through some Russian friends of ours. We had visited with some people, and she was there. Inasmuch as she was studying Russian, she invited me to stay with her.

Mrs. Oswald. No, I only repaid her in the sense that I helped her in the household and that I gave her Russian language lessons. This, in her words, was the very best pay that I could give her. And she wanted that I remain with her longer.

Mrs. Oswald. Mrs. Paine took me there in her car. She took her children and my things and we went there.

Mrs. Oswald. Everything—we could put everything into one car. But, in fact, most of the things Lee had taken with him. Because he went by bus.

Mrs. Oswald. I don't remember exactly, but it seems to me that it was not among my things.

Mrs. Oswald. Magazine Street. By the time I arrived there Lee already had rented an apartment.

Mr. Rankin. When Mrs. Paine brought you down to New Orleans, did she stay with you for any period of time?

Mrs. Oswald. She was very good to us, to Lee and to me, and Lee was quite friendly with her, but he did not like her. I know that he didn't like her.

Mrs. Oswald. He considered her to be a stupid woman. Excuse me—these are not my words.

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, so-so. I tried to help her as much as I could. But I also—I was—I did not like her too well. I also considered her not to be a very smart woman.

Mrs. Oswald. No. I didn't tell anyone. Apart from the FBI. That is after—that is later.

20 Mr. Rankin. Before you went to New Orleans, had you seen anyone from the FBI?

Mrs. Oswald. No, I don't remember that Lee had just returned from work and we were getting ready to have dinner when a car drove up and man introduced himself and asked Lee to step out and talk to him.

There was another man in the car. They talked for about 2 hours and I was very angry, because everything had gotten cold. This meant more work for me. I asked who these were, and he was very upset over the fact that the FBI was interested in him.

Mr. Rankin. Did your husband tell you what they said to him and what he said to them?

Mrs. Oswald. I don't know to what extent this was true, but Lee said that the FBI had told him that in the event some Russians might visit him and would try to recruit him to work for them, he should notify the FBI agents. I don't know to what extent this was true. But perhaps Lee just said that.

Mr. Rankin. Did our husband say anything about the FBI asking him to work for them?

Mr. Rankin. Did he say anything more about what they said to him in this interview?

Mrs. Oswald. No, he didn't tell me verbatim, but he said that they saw Communists in everybody and they are very much afraid and inasmuch as I had returned from Russia.

Mr. Rankin. Did he tell you that they had asked him whether he had acted as an agent or was asked to be an agent for the Russians?

Mrs. Oswald. Excuse me. They did ask him about whether the Russians had proposed that he be an agent for them.

Mr. Rankin. After this interview by the FBI agents, do you recall any later interview with them and yourself or your husband before you went to New Orleans?

The next time was in Irving, when I lived with Mrs. Paine. But that is after I returned from New Orleans.

Mrs. Oswald. He worked for the Louisiana Coffee Co. But I don't know in what capacity. I don't think that this was very good job, or perhaps more correctly, he did not—I know that he didn't like this job.

Mr. Rankin. After you had discussed with your husband your going to Russia, was anything done about that?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, I wrote a letter to the Soviet Embassy with a request to be permitted to return. And then it seems to me after I was already in New Orleans, I wrote another letter in which I told the Embassy that my husband wants to return with me.

21 Mr. Rankin. Do you recall the date of the first letter that you just referred to?

Mr. Rankin. Did you discuss with your husband his returning with you before you wrote the second letter that you have described?

Mrs. Oswald. I didn't ask him. He asked me to do so one day when he was extremely upset. He appeared to be very unhappy and he said that nothing keeps him here, and that he would not lose anything if he returned to the Soviet Union, and that he wants to be with me. And that it would be better to have less but not to be concerned about tomorrow, not to be worried about tomorrow.

Mrs. Oswald. I don't think that he was too fond of Russia, but simply that he knew that he would have work assured him there, because he had—after all, he had to think about his family.

Mrs. Oswald. Well, it seems to me that after we came here, he immediately received a passport. I don't know. I always saw his green passport. He even had two—one that had expired, and a new one.

Mr. Rankin. Do you know about a letter from your husband to the Embassy asking that his request for a visa be considered separately from yours?

Mr. Rankin. When you were at New Orleans, did your husband go to school, that you knew of?

Mrs. Oswald. Most of the time, yes. But I know that he became active with some kind of activity in a pro-Cuban committee. I hope that is what you are looking for.

Mrs. Oswald. He again had a closet-like room with his things in it. He had his clothes hanging there, all his other belongings.

Mr. Rankin. Did you notice him take it away from your home there in New Orleans at any time?

Mrs. Oswald. No. I know for sure that he didn't. But I know that we had a kind of a porch with a—screened-in porch, and I know that sometimes evenings after dark he would sit there with his rifle. I don't know what he did with it. I came there by chance once and saw him just sitting there with his rifle. I thought he is merely sitting there and resting. Of course I didn't like these kind of little jokes.

Mrs. Oswald. It began to happen quite frequently after he was arrested there in connection with some demonstration and handing out of leaflets.

Mr. Rankin. From what you observed about his having the rifle on the back porch, in the dark, could you tell whether or not he was trying to practice with the telescopic lens?

22 Mrs. Oswald. Yes. I asked him why. But this time he was preparing to go to Cuba.

Mrs. Oswald. Yes. He said that he would go to Cuba. I told him I was not going with him—that I would stay here.

Mr. Rankin. On these occasions when he was practicing with the rifle, would they be three or four times a week in the evening, after the Fair Play for Cuba incident?

Mrs. Oswald. Almost every evening. He very much wanted to go to Cuba and have the newspapers write that somebody had kidnapped an aircraft. And I asked him "For God sakes, don't do such a thing."

Mr. Rankin. And when he told you of it, did he indicate that he wanted to be the one that would kidnap the airplane himself?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, he wanted to do that. And he asked me that I should help him with that. But I told him I would not touch that rifle.

Mr. Rankin. Did you tell him that using the rifle in this way, talking about it, was not in accordance with his agreement with you?

Mrs. Oswald. He said that everything would go well. He was very self-reliant—if I didn't want to.

Mrs. Oswald. No. During this time, we got along pretty well not counting the incidents with Cuba. I say relatively well, because we did not really have—generally he helped me quite a bit and was good to me. But, of course, I did not agree with his views.

Mr. Rankin. Was there anything said about the United States—not liking the United States.

Mrs. Oswald. No. I can't say—he liked some things in Russia, he liked some other things here, didn't like some things there, and didn't like some things here.

And I am convinced that as much as he knew about Cuba, all he knew was from books and so on. He wanted to convince himself. But I am sure that if he had gone there, he would not have liked it there, either. Only on the moon, perhaps.

Mrs. Oswald. First of all, he didn't like the fact that there are fascist organizations here. That was one thing.

The second thing, that it was hard to get an education and hard to find work. And that medical expenses were very high.

Mrs. Oswald. No. At least—I was always interested in President Kennedy and had asked him many times to translate articles in a newspaper or magazine for me, and he always had something good to say. He translated it, but never did comment on it. At least in Lee's behavior—from Lee's behavior I cannot conclude that he was against the President, and therefore the thing is incomprehensible to me. Perhaps he hid it from me. I don't know. He said that after 20 years he would be prime minister. I think that he had a sick imagination—at least at that time I already considered him to be not quite normal—not always, but at times. I always tried to point out to him that he was a man like any others who were around us. But he simply could not understand that.

I tried to tell him that it would be better to direct his energies to some more practical matters, and not something like that.

23 Mr. Rankin. Can you tell us what you observed about him that caused you to think he was different?

Mrs. Oswald. At least his imagination, his fantasy, which was quite unfounded, as to the fact that he was an outstanding man. And then the fact that he was very much interested, exceedingly so, in autobiographical works of outstanding statesmen of the United States and others.

Mr. Rankin. Was there anything else of that kind that caused you to think that he was different?

Mrs. Oswald. I think that he compared himself to these people whose autobiographies he read. That seems strange to me, because it is necessary to have an education in order to achieve success of that kind. After he became busy with his pro-Cuban activity, he received a letter from somebody in New York, some Communist—probably from New York—I am not sure from where—from some Communist leader and he was very happy, he felt that this was a great man that he had received the letter from.

You see, when I would make fun of him, of his activity to some extent, in the sense that it didn't help anyone really, he said that I didn't understand him, and here, you see, was proof that someone else did, that there were people who understood his activity.

I would say that to Lee—that Lee could not really do much for Cuba, that Cuba would get along well without him, if they had to.

Mrs. Oswald. He shrugged his shoulders and kept his own opinion. He was even interested in the airplane schedules, with the idea of kidnapping a plane. But I talked him out of it.

Mrs. Oswald. New Orleans—but—from New Orleans—leaving New Orleans in an opposite direction. And he was going to make it turn around and go to Cuba.

Mr. Rankin. When did his Fair Play for Cuba activity occur—before or after he lost his job?

Mrs. Oswald. After he lost his job. I told him it would be much better if he were working, because when he didn't work he was busy with such foolishness.

Mrs. Oswald. Nothing. And it is at that time that I wrote a letter to Mrs. Paine telling her that Lee was out of work, and they invited me to come and stay with her. And when I left her, I knew that Lee would go to Mexico City. But, of course, I didn't tell Mrs. Paine about it.

Mrs. Oswald. From Mexico City he wanted to go to Cuba—perhaps through the Russian Embassy in Mexico somehow he would be able to get to Cuba.

Mrs. Oswald. I know that he said that in the embassy. But he only said so. I know that he had no intention of going to Russia then.

Mrs. Oswald. He told me. I know Lee fairly well—well enough from that point of view.

Mr. Rankin. Did he tell you that he was going to Cuba and send you on to Russia?

Mrs. Oswald. No, he proposed that after he got to Cuba, that I would go there, too, somehow.

But he also said that after he was in Cuba, and if he might go to Russia, he would let me know in any case.

Mrs. Oswald. At the time that he was busy with that pro-Cuban activity. He was sympathetic to Castro while in Russia, and I have also a good opinion of Castro to the extent that I know. I don't know anything bad about him.

Mrs. Oswald. He said that he is a very smart statesman, very useful for his government, and very active.

Mr. Rankin. Did you know he was writing to the Fair Play for Cuba organization in New York during this latter period in New Orleans?

Mrs. Oswald. He told me about it. Or, more correctly, I saw that he was writing to them.

Mr. Rankin. Did you write the Russian Embassy in regard to your visa from New Orleans.

Mrs. Oswald. No, I don't remember. Sometimes I would write a letter, but Lee would insert the address and would mail the letters. That is why I don't remember.

Mr. Rankin. Did you get your mail in New Orleans at your apartment or at a post office box?

Mrs. Oswald. No, we had a post office box, and that is where we received our mail.

Mr. Rankin. Did your husband have any organization in his Fair Play for Cuba at New Orleans?

Mrs. Oswald. The next day, when he was away from home overnight and returned, he told me he had been arrested.

Mrs. Oswald. He was smiling, but in my opinion he was upset. I think that after that occurrence—he became less active, he cooled off a little.

Mrs. Oswald. Yes. He continued it, but more for a person's sake. I think that his heart was no longer in it.

Mr. Rankin. Did he tell you that the FBI had seen him at the jail in New Orleans?

Mr. Rankin. Did he complain about his arrest and say it was unfair, anything of that kind.

He was only there for 24 hours. He paid his fine and left. He said that the policeman who talked to him was very kind, and was a very good person.

Mrs. Oswald. Yes. They are his relatives. I think that Lee engaged in this activity primarily for purposes of self-advertising. He wanted to be arrested. I think he wanted to get into the newspapers, so that he would be known.

Mr. Rankin. Do you think he wanted to be advertised and known as being in support of Cuba before he went to Cuba?

Mr. Rankin. Did he tell you anything about that, or is that just what you guess?

Mrs. Oswald. He would collect the newspaper clippings about his—when the newspapers wrote about him, and he took these clippings with him when he went to Mexico.

Mrs. Oswald. I would say that they were more of a family relationship type. They were very good to us. His uncle, that is the husband of his aunt, was a very good man. He tried to reason with Lee after that incident. Lee liked them very much as relatives but he didn't like the fact that they were all very religious.

When his uncle, or, again, the husband of his aunt would tell him that he must approach things with a more serious attitude, and to worry about himself and his family, Lee would say, "Well, these are just bourgeois, who are only concerned with their own individual welfare."

Mr. Krimer. The word Mrs. Oswald used is not quite bourgeois, but it is a person of a very narrow viewpoint who is only concerned with his own personal interests, inclined to be an egotist.

Mr. Rankin. Did you hear the discussion when the uncle talked about this Fair Play for Cuba and his activities?

Mrs. Oswald. At that time. I did not know English too well, and Lee would not interpret for me. He only nodded his head. But I knew that he did not agree with his uncle. His uncle said that he condemned that kind of activity.

Mrs. Oswald. He never talked English to me at home, and did not give me any instruction. This was strictly my own business. But he did want me to learn English. But that was my own concern. I had to do that myself somehow. That is the truth.

Mr. Rankin. Outside of the Murrets, were there some people from New Orleans that visited you at your home in New Orleans?

Mrs. Oswald. Once or twice a woman visited who was a friend of Ruth Paine's. Ruth Paine has written her. She had written to Ruth Paine to find out whether she knew any Russians there. And once or twice this woman visited us. But other than that, no one.

Mrs. Oswald. I don't remember. I only remember that her first name is also Ruth.

Mr. Rankin. Did your husband have friends of his that visited you there at New Orleans?

Once some time after Lee was arrested, on a Saturday or a Sunday morning, a man came early and questioned Lee about the activity of the allegedly existing organization, which really did not exist. Because in the newspaper accounts Lee was described as a member and even the leader of that organization, which in reality did not exist at all.

Mrs. Oswald. No, I don't. I asked Lee who that was, and he said that is probably some anti-Cuban, or perhaps an FBI agent. He represented himself as a man who was sympathetic to Cuba but Lee did not believe him.

26 Mr. Rankin. Did your husband ever tell you what he told the FBI agent when they came to the jail to see him?

Mr. Rankin. After you wrote Mrs. Paine, did she come at once in response to your letter to take you back to Dallas?

Mrs. Oswald. Not quite at once. She came about a month later. She apparently was on vacation at that time, and said that she would come after her vacation.

Mr. Rankin. Didn't she indicate that she was going to come around September 30, and then came a little before that?

Mrs. Oswald. No. In her letter to me she indicated that she would come either the 20th or the 21st of September, and she did come at that time.

Mr. Rankin. Did you move your household goods in her station wagon at that time?

Mr. Rankin. Do you know whether or not the rifle was carried in the station wagon?

Mrs. Oswald. No. Lee was loading everything on because I was pregnant at the time. But I know that Lee loaded the rifle on.

Mr. Rankin. Was the rifle carried in some kind of a case when you went back with Mrs. Paine?

Mrs. Oswald. After we arrived. I tried to put the bed, the child's crib together, the metallic parts, and I looked for a certain part, and I came upon something wrapped in a blanket. I thought that was part of the bed, but it turned out to be the rifle.

Mr. Rankin. Do you remember whether the pistol was carried back in Mrs. Paine's car too?

Mr. Rankin. Before you went back to Mrs. Paine's house, did you discuss whether you would be paying her anything for board and room?

Mrs. Oswald. She proposed that I again live with her on the same conditions as before. Because this was more advantageous for her than to pay a school. She received better instruction that way.

In any case, she didn't spend any extra money for me—she didn't spend any more than she usually spent.

Mrs. Oswald. No, these were not quite lessons. It was more in the nature of conversational practice. And then I also helped her to prepare Russian lessons for the purpose of teaching Russian.

Mr. Rankin. When you found the rifle wrapped in the blanket, upon your return to Mrs. Paine's, where was it located?

Mrs. Oswald. In that part which is closer to the street, because that garage is connected to the house. One door opens on the kitchen, and the other out in the street.

Mr. Rankin. When your husband talked about going to Mexico City, did he say where he was going to go there, who he would visit?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes. He said that he would go to the Soviet Embassy and to the Cuban Embassy and would do everything he could in order to get to Cuba.

27 Mrs. Oswald. Yes. But we always lived very modestly, and Lee always had some savings. Therefore, he had the money for it.

Mrs. Oswald. He had a little over $100 and he said that that would be sufficient.

Mr. Rankin. Did he talk about getting you a silver bracelet or any presents before he went?

Mrs. Oswald. It is perhaps more truth to say that he asked me what I would like, and I told him that I would like Mexican silver bracelets. But what he did buy me I didn't like at all. When he returned to Irving, from Mexico City, and I saw the bracelet, I was fairly sure that he had bought it in New Orleans and not in Mexico City, because I had seen bracelets like that for sale there. That is why I am not sure that the bracelet was purchased in Mexico.

Lee had an identical bracelet which he had bought in either Dallas or New Orleans. It was a man's bracelet.

Mr. Rankin. The silver bracelet he gave you when he got back had your name on it, did it not?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, I was offended because it was too small, and he promised to exchange it. But, of course, I didn't want to hurt him, and I said, thank you, the important thing is the thought, the attention.

Mr. Rankin. Did he discuss other things that he planned to do in Mexico City, such as see the bullfights or jai alai games or anything of that kind?

Mrs. Oswald. No, I was already questioned about this game by the FBI, but I never heard of it. But I had asked Lee to buy some Mexican records, but he did not do that.

Mrs. Oswald. It seems, yes. Yes, he told me that a round-trip ticket was cheaper than two one-way tickets.

Mr. Rankin. After he had been to Mexico City, did he come back to Irving or to Dallas?

Mrs. Oswald. When Lee returned I was already in Irving and he telephoned me. But he told me that he had arrived the night before and had spent the night in Dallas, and called me in the morning.

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, he told me that he had visited the two embassies, that he had received nothing, that the people who are there are too much—too bureaucratic. He said that he has spent the time pretty well. And I had told him that if he doesn't accomplish anything to at least take a good rest. I was hoping that the climate, if nothing else, would be beneficial to him.

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, I think he said that he visited a bull fight, that he spent most of his time in museums, and that he did some sightseeing in the city.

Mr. Rankin. Did he tell you anything about what happened at the Cuban Embassy, or consulate?

28 Mrs. Oswald. He said that he first visited the Soviet Embassy in the hope that having been there first this would make it easier for him at the Cuban Embassy. But there they refused to have anything to do with him.

Mr. Rankin. And what did he say about the visit to the Cuban Embassy or consulate?

Mr. Rankin. Did he complain about the consular or any of the officials of the Cuban Embassy and the way they handled the matter?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, he called them bureaucrats. He said that the Cubans seemed to have a system similar to the Russians—too much red tape before you get through there.

Mr. Rankin. Is there anything else that he told you about the Mexico City trip that you haven't related?

Mrs. Oswald. All of this took approximately 2 weeks, from the time that I left New Orleans, until the time that he returned.

Mr. Rankin. And from the time he left the United States to go to Mexico City to his return, was that about 7 days?

Mr. Rankin. When you were asked before about the trip to Mexico, you did not say that you knew anything about it. Do you want to explain to the Commission how that happened?

Mrs. Oswald. Most of these questions were put to me by the FBI. I do not like them too much. I didn't want to be too sincere with them. Though I was quite sincere and answered most of their questions. They questioned me a great deal, and I was very tired of them, and I thought that, well, whether I knew about it or didn't know about it didn't change matters at all, it didn't help anything, because the fact that Lee had been there was already known, and whether or not I knew about it didn't make any difference.

Mr. Rankin. Was that the only reason that you did not tell about what you knew of the Mexico City trip before?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, because the first time that they asked me I said no, I didn't know anything about it. And in all succeeding discussions I couldn't very well have said I did. There is nothing special in that. It wasn't because this was connected with some sort of secret.

Mr. Rankin. Did your husband stay with you at the Paines after that first night when he returned from Mexico?

Mrs. Oswald. He intended to rent an apartment in the area of Oak Cliff, and to look for work.

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, I know that he always tried to get some work. He was not lazy.

Mrs. Oswald. On the same day he rented a room, not an apartment, and he telephoned me and told me about it.

Mr. Rankin. Did you discuss the plans for this room before you took him to Dallas?

Mrs. Oswald. No. I asked him where he would live, and he said it would be best if he rented a room, it would not be as expensive as an apartment.

Mr. Rankin. Did he say anything about whether you would be living with him, or he would be living there alone?

Mrs. Oswald. No, I did not really want to be with Lee at that time, because I was expecting, and it would have been better to be with a woman who spoke English and Russian.

Mr. Rankin. Do you know where your husband looked for work in Dallas at that time?

29 Mrs. Oswald. No. He tried to get any kind of work. He answered ads, newspaper ads.

Mr. Rankin. When he was unemployed in New Orleans, did he get unemployment compensation?

Mrs. Oswald. $33 a week. It is possible to live on that money. One can fail to find work and live. Perhaps you don't believe me. It is not bad to rest and receive money.

Mr. Rankin. When he was unemployed in Dallas, do you know whether he received unemployment compensation?

Mrs. Oswald. We were due to receive unemployment compensation, but it was getting close to the end of his entitlement period, and we received one more check.

Mr. Rankin. Did you discuss with him possible places of employment after his return from Mexico?

Mrs. Oswald. No. That was his business. I couldn't help him in that. But to some extent I did help him find a job, because I was visiting Mrs. Paine's neighbors. There was a woman there who told me where he might find some work.

Mrs. Oswald. I don't remember. If that is important, I can try and ascertain date. But I think you probably know.

Mrs. Oswald. As soon as we got the information, the next day he went there and he did get the job.

Mrs. Oswald. It was the neighbor whose brother was employed by the school book depository. He said it seemed to him there was a vacancy there.

The Chairman. Well, I think we have arrived at our adjournment time. We will recess now until tomorrow morning at 10 o'clock.

Tuesday, February 4, 1964
TESTIMONY OF MRS. LEE HARVEY OSWALD RESUMED

The President's Commission met at 10 a.m. on February 4, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C.

Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Senator John Sherman Cooper, Representative Hale Boggs, Representative Gerald R. Ford, John J. McCloy, and Allen W. Dulles, members.

Also present were J. Lee Rankin, general counsel; Norman Redlich, assistant counsel; Leon I. Gopadze and William D. Krimer, interpreters; and John M. Thorne, attorney for Mrs. Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. Rankin. Mrs. Oswald, there are a number of things about some of the material we have been over, the period we have been over, that I would like30 to ask you about, sort of to fill in different parts of it. I hope you will bear with us in regard to that.

Were you aware of the diary that your husband had written and the book that he had typed?

Mrs. Oswald. No, he wrote his in longhand. He started it in Russia. But he had it retyped here because it had been in longhand.

Mrs. Oswald. At the present time it is—I don't know where—the police department or the FBI.

Mrs. Oswald. I don't know where it is now. I know that it was taken. But where it is now, I don't know.

Mr. Rankin. It was taken by either the FBI or the Secret Service or the police department?

Mrs. Oswald. I don't know that, because I was not at home when all these things were taken.

Mr. Rankin. Would you tell us about what you know about their being taken. Were you away from home and someone else was there when various things belonging to you and your husband were taken from the house?

Mrs. Oswald. I don't know where this book was, whether it was at Mrs. Paine's or in Lee's apartment, because I did not see it there. I was not at Mrs. Paine's because I lived in a hotel at that time in Dallas.

Mrs. Oswald. It seems to me that he did not continue it here, that he had completed it in Russia. Not everything, but most of the time.

Mr. Rankin. You have told us about an interview with the FBI, when your husband went out into the car and spent a couple of hours, in August of 1962. Do you recall whether there was an FBI interview earlier than that?

Mrs. Oswald. No, there wasn't. At least I don't know about it. Perhaps there was such a meeting, perhaps at the time we were in Fort Worth somebody had come, when we lived with Robert. One reporter wanted to interview Lee but Lee would not give the interview, and perhaps the FBI came, too.

Mr. Rankin. The particular interview that I am asking you about was June 26, according to information from the FBI.

Mrs. Oswald. I don't know about it. The first time I knew about the FBI coming was when we lived in Fort Worth.

Mr. Rankin. Did you have any difficulties while you were on Mercedes Street with your husband—that is, any quarreling there?

Mr. Rankin. Were you having any problems about finances there, on Mercedes Street?

Mrs. Oswald. Of course we did not live in luxury. We did not buy anything that was not absolutely needed, because Lee had to pay his debt to Robert and to the government. But it was not particularly difficult. At least on that basis we had not had any quarrels.

Mr. Rankin. Could you tell us about De Mohrenschildt? Was he a close friend of your husband?

Mrs. Oswald. Lee did not have any close friends, but at least he had—here in America—he had a great deal of respect for De Mohrenschildt.

31 Mr. Rankin. Could you describe that relationship. Did they see each other often?

Mr. Rankin. Did your husband tell you why he had so much respect for De Mohrenschildt?

Mrs. Oswald. Because he considered him to be smart, to be full of joy of living, a very energetic and very sympathetic person.

Mrs. Oswald. Excuse me. It was pleasant to meet with him. He would bring some pleasure and better atmosphere when he came to visit—with his dogs—he is very loud.

Mr. Rankin. Did you understand any of the conversations between your husband and De Mohrenschildt?

Mr. Rankin. Did they discuss politics or the Marxist philosophy or anything of that kind?

Mrs. Oswald. Being men, of course, sometimes they talked about politics, but they did not discuss Marxist philosophy. They spoke about current political events.

Mr. Rankin. Did they have any discussions about President Kennedy or the Government in the United States at that time?

Mrs. Oswald. No, only George said that before she got married he knew Jackie Kennedy, that she was a very good, very sympathetic woman. Then he was writing a book, that is George, and with reference to that book he had written a letter to President Kennedy. This was with reference to the fact that John Kennedy had recommended physical exercise, walking and so on, and De Mohrenschildt and his wife had walked to the Mexican border. And he hoped that John Kennedy would recommend his book.

Mr. Rankin. Did he say anything, or either of them say anything about President Kennedy at that time?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes. I generally didn't believe him, that he had written a book. Sometimes he could say so, but just for amusement.

Mrs. Oswald. Yes. That is a daughter of his first marriage. At the present time, I think he has—that is his fourth wife.

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, at one time when I had to visit the dentist in Dallas, and I lived in Fort Worth, I came to Dallas and I stayed with them for a couple of days.

Mr. Rankin. Did Gary Taylor help you to move your things at one time, move you and your daughter?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, he moved our things from Fort Worth to Dallas, to Elsbeth Street.

Mrs. Oswald. No, he did not move me to Mrs. Hall. But sometimes he came for a visit. Once or twice I think he came when we lived—to Mrs. Hall's, and once when we lived on Mercedes Street.

Mr. Rankin. When the De Mohrenschildts came to the house and you showed them the rifle, did you say anything about it?

Mr. Rankin. Did you say anything like "Look what my crazy one has done? Bought a rifle" or something of that kind?

Mr. Rankin. In the period of October 1962, you did spend some time with Mrs. Hall, did you not, in her home?

Mrs. Oswald. When Lee found work in Dallas, Elena Hall proposed that I stay with her for some time, because she was alone, and I would be company.

Mr. Rankin. During that period of October of 1962, when your husband went to Dallas to get work, do you know where he lived?

Mrs. Oswald. I know that for—at first, for some time he stayed at the YMCA, but later he rented an apartment, but I don't know at what address. Because in the letters which he wrote me, the return address was a post office box.

Mr. Rankin. Do you know whether he stayed during that period part of the time with Gary Taylor?

Mr. Rankin. Where did you live while your husband was looking for work and staying at the YMCA and at this apartment that you referred to?

Mrs. Oswald. When he stayed at the YMCA he had already found work, and I was in Fort Worth.

Mr. Rankin. Did you notice a change, psychologically, in your husband during this period in the United States?

Mrs. Oswald. At—at Elsbeth Street, in Dallas. After the visit of the FBI, in Fort Worth. He was for some time nervous and irritable.

Mr. Rankin. Would you describe to the Commission what he did to cause you to think that he was changing?

Mrs. Oswald. Generally he was—usually he was quite as he always was. He used to help me. And he was a good family man. Sometimes, apparently without reason, at least I did not know reasons, if any existed, he became quite a stranger. At such times it was impossible to ask him anything. He simply kept to himself. He was irritated by trifles.

Mr. Rankin. Do you recall any of the trifles that irritated him, so as to help us to know the picture?

Mrs. Oswald. It is hard to remember any such trifling occurrences, sometimes such a small thing as, for example, dinner being five minutes late, and I do mean five minutes—it is not that I am exaggerating—he would be very angry. Or if there were no butter on the table, because he hadn't brought it from the icebox, he would with great indignation ask, "Why is there no butter?" And at the same time if I had put the butter on the table he wouldn't have touched it.

This is foolishness, of course. A normal person doesn't get irritated by things like that.

Mr. Rankin. Mrs. Oswald, I do not ask these questions to pry into your personal affairs, but it gives us some insight into what he did and why he might have done the things he did.

Mr. Rankin. Could you tell us a little about when he did beat you because33 we have reports that at times neighbors saw signs of his having beat you, so that we might know the occasions and why he did such things.

Mrs. Oswald. The neighbors simply saw that because I have a very sensitive skin, and even a very light blow would show marks. Sometimes it was my own fault. Sometimes it was really necessary to just leave him alone. But I wanted more attention. He was jealous. He had no reason to be. But he was jealous of even some of my old friends, old in the sense of age.

Basically, that I prefer others to him. That I want many things which he cannot give me. But that was not so. Once we had a quarrel because I had a young man who was a boyfriend—this was before we were married, a boy who was in love with me, and I liked him, too. And I had written him a letter from here. I had—I wrote him that I was very lonely here, that Lee had changed a great deal, and that I was sorry that I had not married him instead, that it would have been much easier for me. I had mailed that letter showing the post office box as a return address. But this was just the time when the postage rates went up by one cent, and the letter was returned. Lee brought that letter and asked me what it was and forced me to read it. But I refused. Then he sat down across from me and started to read it to me. I was very much ashamed of my foolishness. And, of course, he hit me, but he did not believe that this letter was sincere. He asked me if it was true or not, and I told him that it was true. But he thought that I did it only in order to tease him. And that was the end of it. It was a very ill-considered thing.

Mr. Rankin. Do you recall anything more that he said at that time about that matter?

Mrs. Oswald. Of course after he hit me, he said that I should be ashamed of myself for saying such things because he was very much in love with me. But this was after he hit me.

Generally, I think that was right, for such things, that is the right thing to do. There was some grounds for it.

Mr. Rankin. When you had your child baptized, did you discuss that with your husband?

Mrs. Oswald. I knew that Lee was not religious, and, therefore, I did not tell him about it. I lived in Fort Worth at that time, while he lived in Dallas.

But when June was baptized, I told him about it, and he didn't say anything about it. He said it was my business. And he said, "Okay, if you wish." He had nothing against it. He only took offense at the fact that I hadn't told him about it ahead of time.

Mrs. Oswald. I believe in God, of course, but I do not go to church—first because I do not have a car. And, secondly, because there is only one Russian Church. Simply that I believe in God in my own heart, and I don't think it is necessary to visit the church.

Mr. Rankin. While your husband—or while you were visiting the Halls, did your husband tell you about getting his job in Dallas?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes. I knew about it before he left for Dallas, that he already had work there.

Mr. Rankin. Do you recall whether your husband rented the apartment in Dallas about November 3, 1962?

Mrs. Oswald. He had told me that he rented a room, not an apartment. But that was in October.

Mr. Rankin. And had he obtained an apartment before you went to Dallas to live with him?

34 Mr. Rankin. So that you would have gone to Dallas to live with him some time on or about the date that he rented that apartment?

Mr. Rankin. After you went to live with him in the apartment at Dallas, did you separate from him again and go to live with somebody else?

Mrs. Oswald. Only after this quarrel. Then I stayed with my friends for one week. I had already told you about that.

Mr. Rankin. Do you recall that you called Mrs. Meller and told her about your husband beating you and she told you to get a cab and come to stay with her?

Mrs. Oswald. I don't think so. Perhaps she understood it that he had beaten me, because it had happened.

Mr. Rankin. Can you give us any more exact account of where your husband stayed in the period between October 10 and November 18, 1962?

Mrs. Oswald. I don't remember his exact address. This was a period when I did not live with him.

Mr. Rankin. The period that he rented the apartment was November 3, so that shortly after that, as I understood your testimony, you were with him, from November 3, or about November 3 on to the 18th. Is that right?

Mrs. Oswald. From November 3 to November 18, 1962? On Elsbeth Street? No, I was there longer.

Mrs. Oswald. No, I don't remember. The day when he rented the apartment was a Sunday. But where he lived before that, I don't know.

Mr. Rankin. After you went to live with him in the apartment, around November 3, how long did you stay before you went to live with your friend?

Mr. Rankin. And when you were at Fort Worth, and he was living in Dallas, did he call you from time to time on the telephone?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, he called me and he wrote letters and sometimes he came for a visit.

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, he said that he had rented a room, but he did not tell me his address.

Mr. Rankin. Did you think there was something in your husband's life in America, his friends and so forth, that caused him to be different here?

Mrs. Oswald. No, he had no friends who had any influence over him. He himself had changed by comparison to the way he was in Russia. But what the reason for that was, I don't know.

Did your consideration of a divorce from your husband have anything to do with his ideas and political opinions?

Mrs. Oswald. No. The only reasons were personal ones with reference to our personal relationship, not political reasons.

Mr. Rankin. In your story you say that what was involved was some of his crazy ideas and political opinions. Can you tell us what you meant by that?

Mrs. Oswald. This was after the case, after the matter of the divorce. I knew that Lee had such political leanings.

Mr. Rankin. With regard to your Russian friends, did you find the time when they came less to see you and didn't show as much interest in you?

Mr. Rankin. Can you give us about the time, just approximately when you noticed that difference?

Mrs. Oswald. Soon after arriving in Dallas. Mostly it was De Mohrenschildt35 who visited us. He was the only one who remained our friend. The others sort of removed themselves.

Mrs. Oswald. Because they saw that Lee's attitude towards them was not very proper, he was not very hospitable, and he was not glad to see them. They felt that he did not like them.

Mr. Rankin. Will you describe what you observed that caused you to think this, or how your husband acted in regard to these friends?

Mrs. Oswald. He told me that he did not like them, that he did not want them to come to visit.

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, he was not very talkative when they came for a visit. Sometimes he would even quarrel with them.

Mr. Rankin. When he quarreled with them, was it in regard to political ideas or what subjects?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, they would not agree with him when he talked on political matters.

Mrs. Oswald. Of course it is difficult to remember all the conversations. But I know that they had a difference of opinion with reference to political matters. My Russian friends did not approve of everything. I am trying to formulate it more exactly. They did not like the fact that he was an American who had gone to Russia. I think that is all. All that I can remember.

Mrs. Oswald. Excuse me. Simply I would be busy, and I didn't listen to the conversation.

Mr. Rankin. Can you recall anything else about the conversation or the substance of it?

Mr. Rankin. When did you first consider the possibility of returning to the Soviet Union?

Mrs. Oswald. I never considered that, but I was forced to because Lee insisted on it.

Mr. Rankin. When you considered it, as you were forced to, by his insistence, do you know when it was with reference to your first request to the Embassy, which was February 17, 1963?

Mrs. Oswald. I think it was a couple of weeks before that, at the beginning of February.

Mr. Rankin. Did your husband know about the letter you sent to the Embassy on February 17?

Mr. Rankin. Did he tell you what to put in the letter, or was that your own drafting?

Mrs. Oswald. No, I knew myself what I had to write, and these were my words. What could I do if my husband didn't want to live with me? At least that is what I thought.

Mr. Rankin. Did you ever have arguments with your husband about smoking and drinking wine, other things like that?

Mrs. Oswald. About drinking wine, no. But he didn't like the fact that I smoked, because he neither smoked nor drank. It would have been better if he had smoked and drank.

Mrs. Oswald. We were invited, together with George De Mohrenschildt and his wife, to the home of his friend, an American. And Ruth was acquainted with that American. She was also visiting there. And there were a number of other people there, Americans.

Mrs. Oswald. I don't remember his last name. If you would suggest, perhaps I could say.

Mr. Rankin. Did you notice any difference in his attitude towards your child after you saw this change in his personality?

Mr. Rankin. Will you describe to the Commission how your husband treated the baby, and some of his acts, what he did?

Mrs. Oswald. He would walk with June, play with her, feed her, change diapers, take photographs—everything that fathers generally do.

Mrs. Oswald. After I became acquainted with Ruth and she visited me for the first time, she asked me to come for a visit to her. This was on a Friday. Her husband, Michael, came for us and drove us to their home in Irving.

Mr. Rankin. At the time of the Walker incident, do you recall whether your husband had his job or had lost it?

Mrs. Oswald. You had said that this had happened on a Wednesday, and it seems to me that it was on a Friday that he was told that he was discharged. He didn't tell me about it until Monday.

Mr. Rankin. But it was on the preceding Friday that he was discharged, was it not?

Mrs. Oswald. No, not the preceding Friday—the Friday after the incident. That is what he told me.

Mr. Rankin. If he had lost his job before the Walker incident, you didn't know it then?

Mr. Rankin. On the day of the Walker shooting did he appear to go to work as usual?

Mr. Rankin. Did you notice any difference in his actions when he returned home and had dinner?

Mrs. Oswald. No, he was quite calm. But it seemed to me that inside he was tense.

Mrs. Oswald. I could tell by his face. I knew Lee. Sometimes when some thing would happen he wouldn't tell me about it, but I could see it in his eyes, that something had happened.

Mrs. Oswald. No. He went downstairs. We lived on the second floor. He said, "Bye-bye."

Mr. Rankin. Did you look to see if the gun had been taken when he did not return?

The Chairman. Yes. I think we will take a 10 minute recess now, so you might refresh yourself.

Mr. Rankin. Mrs. Oswald, you told us about your knowledge about the trip to Mexico and said that you were under oath and were going to tell us all about what you knew.

Did your husband ever ask you not to disclose what you knew about the Mexican trip?

Mrs. Oswald. Before he left. I had remained and he was supposed to leave on the next day, and he warned me not to tell anyone about it.

Mr. Rankin. After he returned to Dallas from his Mexico trip, did he say anything to you then about not telling he had been to Mexico?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, he asked me whether I had told Ruth about it or anyone else, and I told him no, and he said that I should keep quiet about it.

Mr. Rankin. I will hand you Exhibit 1 for identification, and ask you if you recall seeing that document before.

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, this is the note that I found in connection with the Walker incident.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 1, and received in evidence.)

Mr. Rankin. Can you tell us what your husband meant when he said on that note, "The Red Cross also will help you."

Mrs. Oswald. I understand that if he were arrested and my money would run out, I would be able to go to the Red Cross for help.

Mrs. Oswald. Because it contained the addresses and telephone numbers of his and my friends in Russia and here.

Mr. Rankin. I will hand you Exhibit 2 for identification and ask you if you know what that is.

Mr. Rankin. Do you know whether or not that is a photograph of the Walker house in Dallas?

Mrs. Oswald. I didn't see it—at least—taken from this view I can't recognize38 it. I know that the photograph of Walker's home which I saw showed a two-story house. But I don't recognize it from this view. I never saw the house itself at any time in my life.

Mr. Rankin. Does Exhibit 2 for identification appear to be the picture that you described yesterday of the Walker house that you thought your husband had taken and put in his book?

Mrs. Oswald. No. Perhaps this was in his notebook. But I don't remember this particular one.

Mrs. Oswald. Excuse me. Perhaps there are some other photographs there that I might be able to recognize.

Mr. Rankin. I will present some more to you, and possibly you can then pick out the Walker house.

Mr. Rankin. I now hand you a photograph which has been labeled Exhibit 4 for identification. I ask if you can identify the subject of that photograph, or those photographs.

Mrs. Oswald. I know one shows Walker's house. Another is a photograph from Leningrad. P-3—this is probably New Orleans. P-4—Leningrad. It is a photograph showing the castle square in Leningrad.

Mr. Rankin. Do you know whether the photographs on Exhibit 4 for identification were part of your husband's photographs?

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit 2, and received in evidence.)

Mr. Rankin. No, all of it—because she identified the others, too, as a part of the photographs that belonged to her husband. And she pointed out P-2 as being the Walker residence.

When did you first see this photograph of the Walker residence, P-2, in this Exhibit 2?

Mr. Rankin. I hand you Exhibit 3 for identification. I ask you if you can identify the photographs there.

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, these are all our photographs. P-1 is Walker's house. P-4 and P-3 is a photograph showing me and a girlfriend of mine in Minsk, after a New Year's party, on the morning, on January 1. Before I was married. This was taken early in the morning, after we had stayed overnight in the suburbs. P-5 shows Paul—Pavel Golovachev. He is assembling a television set. He sent us this photograph. He is from Minsk. He worked in the same factory as Lee did.

Mr. Rankin. Can you tell us which one is the picture of the Walker house on that exhibit?

Mrs. Oswald. Together with the other one. P-2 and P-6, I know that they are Lee's photographs, but I don't know what they depict.

Mr. Rankin. Were you shown the P-1 photograph of that Exhibit 3 at the same time you were shown the other one that you have identified regarding the Walker house?

39 Mrs. Oswald. It seems to me that that is so. I don't remember exactly. It is hard to remember.

Mr. Rankin. And was that the evening after your husband returned from the Walker shooting?

Mr. Rankin. By succeeding, you mean within two or three days after the shooting?

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 3, and was received in evidence.)

Mrs. Oswald. I don't remember the photograph, the first one that you showed me. I only assumed that was Walker's house.

Mr. Rankin. When you say you do not remember the picture of the Walker house, you are referring to the Exhibit 2 for identification that we did not offer in evidence, that I will show you now?

Mr. Rankin. Do you recall that your husband showed you any other exhibits that were pictures of the Walker house at the time he discussed the Walker shooting with you, beyond those that I have shown you?

Mrs. Oswald. There was some railroad—not just a photograph of a house. Perhaps there were some others. There were several photographs.

P-5, I did see this photograph with Lee—he showed it to me after the incident.

Mr. Rankin. When your husband showed you the photograph P-5, did he discuss with you what that showed, how it related to the Walker shooting?

Mrs. Oswald. No. I simply see that this is a photograph of a railroad. It was in that book. And I guessed, myself, that it had some sort of relationship to the incident.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 4, and received in evidence.)

Mr. Rankin. Now, I shall hand you Exhibit 6 for identification and ask you if you recognize those two photographs.

Mrs. Oswald. Yes. These photographs I know, both of them. They seem to be identical. Walker's house.

Mr. Rankin. About the same time that you saw the other pictures of the Walker house that you have described?

Mrs. Oswald. He didn't tell me, but I guessed, myself—I concluded myself that these photographs would help him in that business.

(The documents referred to were marked Commission Exhibit No. 5, and received in evidence.)

40 Mr. Rankin. Before you told the Commission about the Walker shooting, and your knowledge, did you tell anyone else about it?

Mrs. Oswald. After Lee was arrested, on Saturday—he was arrested on Friday. I don't remember when I met with his mother—whether it was on the same Friday—yes, Friday evening. I met her at the police station. From there we went to Ruth Paine's where I lived at that time. And she remained overnight, stayed overnight there. I had a photograph of Lee with the rifle, which I gave. At that time I spoke very little English. I explained as best I could about it. And that is why I showed her the photograph. And I told her that Lee had wanted to kill Walker.

Mr. Rankin. Now, turning to the period when you were in New Orleans, did you write to the Russian Embassy about going to Russia, returning to Russia at that time?

Mr. Rankin. I hand you Exhibit 6 for identification and ask you if that is the first letter that you sent to the Embassy. Take your time and look at it.

Mrs. Oswald. This was not the first letter, but it was the first letter written from New Orleans.

Mr. Rankin. Will you examine the photostat that has just been handed to you, and tell us whether or not that was the first letter that you wrote to the Embassy about this matter?

Mr. Rankin. Will you examine the one that you now have, and state whether that is the first letter?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, this was the first. This was only the declaration. But there was a letter in addition to it.

Mr. Rankin. The declaration was a statement that you wished to return to the Soviet Russia?

I don't know—perhaps a little later, because I was not very anxious to send this.

Mr. Rankin. And it might have been within a few days or a few weeks of that time?

Mr. Rankin. Now, the photostatic document that you have just referred to as being the first letter, does it bear a date?

Mr. Rankin. And do you know that that letter had attached to it your declaration that you just referred to?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, it seems to me. Perhaps it was attached to the next letter. I am not sure.

41 Mr. Rankin. This letter of February 17 that you referred to as the first letter is in your handwriting?

Mr. Rankin. Will you examine the translation into English that is attached to it and inform us whether or not that is a correct translation?

Mr. Rankin. Mr. Interpreter, can you help us in that regard, and tell her whether it is a correct translation?

Mrs. Oswald. That is a quite correct translation. I didn't want to, but I had to compose some such letters.

Mr. Rankin. I offer in evidence the photostatic copy of the letter in Russian as Exhibit 6.

(The documents referred to were marked Commission Exhibit Nos. 6 and 7, respectively, and received in evidence.)

Mr. Rankin. I hand you again the declaration, Exhibit 8, and ask you if that accompanied the first letter, Exhibit 6, that you have referred to?

Mrs. Oswald. I don't remember whether it accompanied the first letter or the second letter with which I had enclosed some photographs and filled out questionnaires.

Mr. Rankin. I hand you Exhibit 9 and ask you if that is the second letter that you have just referred to.

Mrs. Oswald. No, this was perhaps the third. Perhaps I could help you, if you would show me all the letters, I would show you the sequence.

Mr. Rankin. I hand you Exhibit 9, dated March 8, 1963, and ask you if you can tell whether that is the letter which accompanied the declaration.

Mr. Rankin. Mr. Chairman, may we have a short recess to get the original exhibits that we have prepared, and I think we can expedite our hearing.

I will call your attention to the photostats of the declaration and the accompanying papers that I shall now call Exhibit 8 to replace the references to Exhibit 8 and 9 that we made in prior testimony, and ask you to examine that and see if they were sent together by you to the Embassy.

Mrs. Oswald. I sent this after I received an answer from the Embassy, an answer to my first letter. This is one and the same. Two separate photostats of the same declaration. All of these documents were attached to my second letter after the answer to my first.

Mr. Rankin. I call your attention to Exhibit 9, and ask you if that is the answer to your first letter that you have just referred to.

Mrs. Oswald. The only thing is that the address and the telephone number of the Embassy are not shown in the Russian original. They are in the translation.

Mr. Rankin. Mr. Chairman, I ask leave to substitute the Exhibit No. 8 for what I have called 9, as the reply of the Embassy, so that we won't be confused about the order of these.

Mr. Rankin. I offer in evidence the original and the translation of Exhibit 8, except for the address of the Embassy, which was not on the original.

42 (The documents referred to were marked Commission Exhibit No. 8, and received in evidence.)

Mr. Rankin. Now, as I understand, what I will call Exhibit 9 now, to correct the order in which these letters were sent to the Embassy, was your response to the letter of the Embassy dated March 8, is that correct?

Mr. Rankin. Will you compare the translation with the interpreter and advise us if it is correct?

Mr. Krimer. It says, "Application" in the translation; the Russian word is "Declaration".

Mr. Krimer. Sir, this was a printed questionnaire, and there is a translator note on here which states that since printed questions are given both in Russian and English translation, only the answer portion of the document is being translated.

Mr. Rankin. You have now examined Exhibit 9 and the translation into English from that exhibit where it was in Russian and compared them with the interpreter, have you?

Mr. Rankin. I offer in evidence Exhibit 9, being the Russian communications, and the English translations.

(The documents referred to were marked Commission Exhibit No. 9, and received in evidence.)

Mr. Rankin. Mrs. Oswald, do you recall that in the letter from the Embassy of March 8, which is known as Commission's Exhibit 8, that you were told that the time of processing would take 5 to 6 months?

Mrs. Oswald. At that time we did not discuss it. We discussed it in New Orleans. Or more correctly, we thought that if everything is in order, I would be able to leave before the birth of my second child.

Mr. Rankin. And you think that you discussed it with him while you were at New Orleans?

Mr. Rankin. Do you recall that it is also requested in the letter of March 8 from the Embassy, Commission's Exhibit 8, that you furnish one or two letters from relatives residing in the Soviet Union who were inviting you to live with them?

Mr. Rankin. After you sent Exhibit 9 to the Embassy, did you have further correspondence with them?

Mr. Rankin. I will hand you Exhibit 10, a letter purporting to be from the Embassy dated April 18, and ask you if you recall that.

(The documents referred to were marked Commission Exhibit No. 10, and received in evidence.)

Mr. Rankin. Did you note that the Embassy invited you to come and visit them personally?

Mr. Rankin. I hand you a letter purporting to be from the Embassy, dated June 4, marked Exhibit 11, and ask you if you recall receiving that?

Mr. Rankin. We offer in evidence Exhibit 11, being the Russian letter from the Embassy together with the English translation.

(The documents referred to were marked Commission Exhibit No. 11, and received in evidence.)

Afternoon Session
TESTIMONY OF MRS. LEE HARVEY OSWALD RESUMED

Mr. Rankin. Mrs. Oswald, I will now give you Exhibit 12 to examine and ask you to compare the Russian with the English translation.

Mr. Rankin. I offer in evidence Exhibit 12, being the Russian letter, and the English translation.

(The documents referred to were marked Commission Exhibit No. 12, and received in evidence.)

Mr. Rankin. Now, this Exhibit 13 that you have just examined in Russian, is that your letter, Mrs. Oswald, to the Embassy?

Mrs. Oswald. What was the date of the preceding letter, No. 11—Exhibit No. 11?

Mr. Rankin. And was an application for your husband for a visa included or enclosed with Exhibit 12 when you sent it?

44 Mrs. Oswald. Lee told me that he had sent an application, but it was he who put this letter in an envelope and addressed it, so I don't know whether it was there or not.

Mr. Rankin. And when you say that it was he that put the letter into the envelope and addressed it, you mean this Exhibit 12, that was a letter that you had written?

Mr. Rankin. Do I understand you correctly that you do not know whether his application was included because he handled the mailing of it?

Mrs. Oswald. I don't remember this. He did not write this in my presence. But it is Lee's handwriting.

Mr. Rankin. Mr. Krimer, will you please translate it for her so she will know the contents.

Mr. Rankin. I was going to ask you. But since you have not seen it before, I guess you cannot help us.

Is this the first time that you knew that he had ever asked that his visa be handled separately from yours?

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 13, and received in evidence.)

Mr. Rankin. Is the word "separately" the last word of the letter that you are referring to—that is the word that you asked about?

Mr. Rankin. That is the way we received it, Mrs. Oswald. We assume it was underlined by your husband. We know that it was not underlined by the Commission, and no one in the Government that had anything to do with it has ever told us that they had anything to do with underlining it.

Mrs. Oswald. I think that perhaps he asked for that visa to be considered separately because the birth of the child might complicate matters, and perhaps he thought it would speed it up if they do consider it separately.

Mr. Rankin. In connection with that thought, I will hand you Exhibit 14, and ask you to examine that and tell us whether you have seen that before.

Mr. Rankin. I offer in evidence the letter in Russian, Exhibit 14, and the English translation.

(The documents referred to were marked Commission Exhibit No. 14, and received in evidence.)

Mr. Rankin. Did you have any impression that your husband may not have planned to go back to Russia himself, but was merely trying to arrange for you and your daughter to go back?

Mrs. Oswald. At that time I did not think so, but now I think perhaps. Because he planned to go to Cuba.

Mr. Rankin. By that you mean you think he may have planned to go to Cuba and never go beyond Cuba, but stay in Cuba?

Mr. Rankin. I hand you Exhibit 15 and ask you whether you remember having seen that before.

Mrs. Oswald. A crazy letter. Perhaps from this I could conclude that he did want to go to the Soviet Union—but now I am lost, I don't know. Because—45perhaps because nothing came out of his Cuban business, perhaps that is why he decided to go to the Soviet Union. The letter is not too polite, in my opinion.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 15, and received in evidence.)

Mr. Rankin. Mr. Chief Justice, I think in the examination about this letter, if I would circulate it to the Commission it would be a little clearer what it is all about—if you could have a moment or two to examine it, I think it would help in your understanding of the examination.

Mrs. Oswald. No, I don't know, but I know that he was typing there. I don't know what he was typing.

Mr. Rankin. And it is Ruth Paine's typewriter that you are referring to, when you say Ruth?

Mrs. Oswald. Ruth Paine. Because Lee did not have a typewriter, and it is hardly likely that he would have had it typed somewhere else.

Mr. Rankin. I hand you Exhibit 16, which purports to be the envelope for the letter, Exhibit 15. Have you ever seen that?

Mrs. Oswald. The envelope I did see. I did not see the letter, but I did see the envelope. Lee had retyped it some 10 times or so.

Mr. Rankin. Do you recall or could you clarify for us about the date on the envelope—whether it is November 2 or November 12?

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 16, and received in evidence.)

Mr. Rankin. I might call your attention, Mrs. Oswald, to the fact that Exhibit 15, the letter, is dated November 9. Does that help you any?

Mr. Rankin. Did you have anything to do with the mailing of this letter, Exhibit 15?

Mr. Rankin. Yesterday you testified to the fact that your husband told you about his trip to Mexico when he returned, is that right?

Mr. Rankin. Was there anyone other than yourself and your husband present when he told you about it?

Mr. Rankin. Will you tell us in as much detail as you can remember just what he said about the trip at that time?

Mrs. Oswald. Everything that I could remember I told you yesterday. I don't remember any more about it.

Mrs. Oswald. But I asked him that we not go to Russia, I told him that I did not want to, and he said, "Okay."

Mr. Rankin. That was in this same conversation, after he had told you about the trip to Mexico?

Mr. Rankin. When he asked you not to tell anyone about the trip to Mexico, did he tell you why he asked you to do that?

Mrs. Oswald. No. I knew that he was secretive, and that he loved to make secrets of things.

Mr. Rankin. Did you know the Comrade Kostin that is referred to in this letter of November 8, Exhibit 15?

46 Mrs. Oswald. I never wrote to him. I don't know. I don't know where he got that name from.

Mr. Rankin. Did your husband say anything about Comrade Kostin and his visit with him at the embassy in Mexico City, when he told you about the trip?

Mrs. Oswald. He did not name him. He didn't tell me his name. But he told me he was a very pleasant, sympathetic person, who greeted him, welcomed him there.

Mr. Rankin. Did your husband say anything to you about what he meant when he said he could not take a chance on requesting a new visa unless he used a real name, so he returned to the United States?

Mr. Rankin. Did you understand that he had used any assumed name about going to Mexico?

Mrs. Oswald. No. After Lee returned from Mexico, I lived in Dallas, and Lee gave me his phone number and then when he changed his apartment—Lee lived in Dallas, and he gave me his phone number. And then when he moved, he left me another phone number.

And once when he did not come to visit during the weekend, I telephoned him and asked for him by name—rather, Ruth telephoned him and it turned out there was no one there by that name. When he telephoned me again on Monday, I told him that we had telephoned him but he was unknown at that number.

Then he said that he had lived there under an assumed name. He asked me to remove the notation of the telephone number in Ruth's phone book, but I didn't want to do that. I asked him then, "Why did you give us a phone number, when we do call we cannot get you by name?"

He was very angry, and he repeated that I should remove the notation of the phone number from the phone book. And, of course, we had a quarrel. I told him that this was another of his foolishness, some more of his foolishness. I told Ruth Paine about this. It was incomprehensible to me why he was so secretive all the time.

Mr. Rankin. Did he give you any explanation of why he was using an assumed name at that time?

Mrs. Oswald. He said that he did not want his landlady to know his real name because she might read in the paper of the fact that he had been in Russia and that he had been questioned.

Mrs. Oswald. Because their visits were not very pleasant for him and he thought that he loses jobs because the FBI visits the place of his employment.

Mr. Rankin. Now, if he was using an assumed name during the trip in Mexico, you didn't know about it, is that correct?

Mr. Rankin. Before the trip to Mexico, did your husband tell you that he did not expect to contact the Soviet Embassy there about the visa?

Mrs. Oswald. He said that he was going to visit the Soviet Embassy, but more for the purpose of getting to Cuba, to try to get to Cuba. I think that was more than anything a masking of his purpose. He thought that this would help.

Mr. Rankin. You mean it was a masking of his purpose to visit the Soviet Embassy in Mexico, or to write it in this letter?

Mr. Rankin. You noticed where he said in this letter "I had not planned to contact the Soviet Embassy in Mexico," did you not?

47 Mr. Rankin. And he told you before he went to Mexico that he planned to visit the Soviet Embassy, did he?

Mr. Rankin. Did he ever say to you before he went to Mexico that he planned to communicate with the Soviet Embassy in Havana?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, he said that if he would be able to get to Cuba, with the intention of living there, he would get in touch with the Soviet Embassy for the purpose of bringing me there. Or for him to go to Russia. Because sometimes he really sincerely wanted to go to Russia and live and sometimes not. He did not know, himself. He was very changeable.

Mr. Rankin. But in Exhibit 15, Mrs. Oswald, he refers to the fact that he hadn't been able to reach the Soviet Embassy in Havana as planned, and then he says, "The Embassy there would have had time to complete our business."

Mrs. Oswald. Yes. If he said in Mexico City that he wanted to visit the Soviet Embassy in Havana, the reason for it was only that he thereby would be able to get to Cuba.

Mr. Rankin. The difficulty, Mrs. Oswald, with my understanding of Exhibit 15 is that he purports to say, as I read the letter, that if he had been able to reach the Soviet Embassy in Havana, he would have been able to complete his business about the visa, and he wouldn't have had to get in touch with the Soviet Embassy in Mexico City at all.

Mrs. Oswald. The thing is that one cannot go to Cuba—that the only legal way is via Mexico City. And, therefore, he went to the Soviet Embassy there in Mexico City and told them that he wanted to visit the Soviet Embassy in Havana, but only for the purpose of getting into Cuba.

I don't think he would have concluded his business there. I don't think that you understand that Lee has written that letter in a quite involved manner. It is not very logical. I don't know whether it is clear to you or not.

I was trying to find out also whether your husband had told you anything about what he meant or what he did or whether he had tried to contact the Embassy in Havana, as he says in this letter.

Mrs. Oswald. Yes. I don't know of this letter. I only know that Lee wanted to get to Cuba by any means.

Mr. Rankin. Then he next proceeds to say, "Of course the Soviet Embassy was not at fault. They were, as I say, unprepared". As I read that, I understand that he was trying to let the Embassy in Washington know that the Mexico City Embassy had not been notified by him, and, therefore, was unprepared.

Mrs. Oswald. Why did the Embassy in Washington have to notify the Embassy in Mexico City that Lee Oswald was arriving?

Mr. Rankin. The question is did he say anything to you about it when he got back?

Mrs. Oswald. He said that when he went to the Soviet Embassy in Mexico City they had promised him that they would write a letter to the Embassy in Washington.

Please excuse me, but it is very difficult for me to read the involved thoughts of Lee.

Mrs. Oswald. Excuse me. I only know that his basic desire was to get to Cuba by any means, and that all the rest of it was window dressing for that purpose.

Mr. Rankin. Then in this Exhibit 15 he proceeds to say, "The Cuban Consulate was guilty of a gross breach of regulations." Do you know what he meant by that?

Mr. Rankin. Did he ever say what regulations he thought were breached, or that the Cuban Embassy didn't carry out regulations when he returned from his trip and told you about what happened there?

Mr. Rankin. Then he goes on to say in the Exhibit, "I am glad he has since been replaced."

Mrs. Oswald. I have no knowledge of it. I think that if the person to whom this letter was addressed would read the letter he wouldn't understand anything, either.

Mr. Rankin. Your husband goes on in Exhibit 15 to say, "The Federal Bureau of Investigation is not now interested in my activities in the progressive organization 'Fair Play for Cuba Committee' of which I was secretary in New Orleans (State of Louisiana) since I no longer reside in that state."

He wrote this in order to emphasize his importance. He was no secretary of any—he was not a secretary of any organization.

Mr. Rankin. Do you know that he had received any inquiry from the Embassy or anyone of the Soviet Union about the matters that he is telling about here?

Mr. Rankin. Then he goes on to say, "However, the FBI has visited us here in Dallas, Texas, on November 1. Agent James P. Hosty"—do you know whether there was such a visit by that man?

Mrs. Oswald. I don't know his last name. He gave us his telephone number, but it seems to me that his name was different.

Mrs. Oswald. He gave the telephone number to Ruth, and she, in turn, passed it on to Lee.

Mrs. Oswald. He took the note with him to Dallas. I don't know what he did with it.

Mr. Rankin. Did the agent also give his license number for his car to Mrs. Paine or to you or to your husband?

Mrs. Oswald. No. But Lee had asked me that if an FBI agent were to call, that I note down his automobile license number, and I did that.

Mr. Rankin. Now, he goes on to say that this agent, James P. Hosty "warned me that if I engaged in FPCC activities in Texas the FBI will again take an 'interest' in me."

Mrs. Oswald. I don't know why he said that in there, because if he has in mind the man who visited us, that man had never seen Lee. He was talking to me and to Mrs. Paine. But he had never met Lee. Perhaps this is another agent, not the one who visited us.

Mr. Rankin. Do you know whether any FBI agent had ever warned your husband that if he engaged in any Fair Play for Cuba activities in Texas, the FBI would be again interested in him?

Mr. Rankin. Then in the exhibit he goes on to say, "This agent also 'suggested' to Marina Nichilyeva that she could remain in the United States under FBI protection."

The only thing the agent did say is that if I had ever any kind of difficulties or troubles in the sense that someone would try to force me to do something, to become an agent, then I should get in touch with him, and that if I don't want to do this, that they would help me. But they never said that I live here and that I must remain here under their protection.

Mr. Rankin. Then in this Exhibit 15 he goes on to explain what he means by the word "protection", saying "That is, she could defect from the Soviet Union, of course." Do you remember anybody saying anything like that to you?

Mr. Rankin. Did anyone at any time, while you were in the United States, suggest that you become an agent of any agency of the United States?

Mr. Rankin. Did anyone from the Soviet Union suggest that you be an agent for that government, or any of its agencies?

Mr. Rankin. Now, in this Exhibit 15, your husband goes on to say, "I and my wife strongly protested tactics by the notorious FBI."

Mrs. Oswald. I don't know of any protests, but simply that I said that I would prefer not to get these visits, because they have a very exciting and disturbing effect upon my husband. But it was not a protest. This was simply a request.

Mr. Rankin. And you never made any protests against anyone asking you to act as an agent or to defect to the United States because no one asked you that, is that right?

Mr. Rankin. Do you know of anything that you could tell the Commission in regard to these matters in this letter, Exhibit 15, that would shed more light on what your husband meant or what he was trying to do, that you have not already told us?

Mrs. Oswald. Everything that I could tell you with reference to this letter I have told you.

Mr. Rankin. Mrs. Oswald, I will hand you again Exhibit 14 and the translation from the Russian and call your attention to the urgency of your request there. I ask you, was that your idea to press for help from the Embassy in regard to the visa, or your husband's?

Mr. Rankin. At the time of Exhibit 14, then, you were not anxious to return to Russia?

Mrs. Oswald. I never wanted to return but Lee insisted and there is nothing else I could do. But sometimes when I wrote these letters, I felt very lonely—since my husband didn't want me, I felt perhaps this would be the best way.

Mrs. Oswald. No. I have a Spanish textbook of the Spanish language and I had intended to study even while I was still in Russia, but I never did.

Mrs. Oswald. He didn't study it, but before his trip to Mexico he would sit down with the textbook and look at it.

Mr. Rankin. I hand you Exhibit 17 and ask you if you recall having seen that before.

50 Mrs. Oswald. June seems to have played with it. This was Lee's study of Spanish perhaps because this was all photographed, it is soiled. Here I helped Lee. I wrote some Spanish words.

Mr. Rankin. Can you tell us when he was trying to study Spanish? Was it at any time with regard to the time when he planned to go to Cuba?

Mr. Rankin. And whatever he did in this notebook, Exhibit 17, he did at that time or thereafter?

Mr. Rankin. Did he do whatever writing he did in connection with the study of the Spanish language in Exhibit 17 at New Orleans in August or after that date?

Mr. Rankin. And did he do anything in the writing of what is in Exhibit 17 in the study of the Spanish language at Dallas, that you know of?

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 17, and received in evidence.)

Mrs. Oswald. How a simple notebook can become a matter of material evidence—the Spanish words in it, and June's scribbling on it.

Mr. Rankin. Returning to the time that your husband came back from Mexico City to Dallas, can you tell us what type of luggage he brought back with him?

Mrs. Oswald. He had a military type raincoat with him and a small bag with a zipper, blue in color.

Mr. Rankin. As far as you recall he did not have two bags that he brought back with him from Mexico?

Mr. Rankin. Did he spend the first weekend of October 4 to 6 with you at the Paines?

Mrs. Oswald. No, not the whole weekend. When he returned he stayed overnight and then he went to Dallas. But he returned on Saturday or Friday evening. And he remained until Monday.

Mr. Rankin. Did you notice any change in your husband after this trip to Mexico?

Mrs. Oswald. In my opinion, he was disappointed at not being able to get to Cuba, and he didn't have any great desire to do so any more because he had run into, as he himself said—into bureaucracy and red tape. And he changed for the better. He began to treat me better.

Mrs. Oswald. He helped me more—although he always did help. But he was more attentive. Perhaps this was because he didn't live together with me but stayed in Dallas. Perhaps, also because we expected a child and he was in somewhat an elated mood.

Mr. Rankin. Did your husband have any money with him when he returned from Mexico?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, he had some left. But I never counted how much money he had in his wallet. That is why I don't know.

Mrs. Oswald. What would be a large amount for me would not be a large amount for you.

Mrs. Oswald. He might have had $50 or $70, thereabouts. It is necessary sometimes to make a joke. Otherwise, it gets boring.

Mr. Rankin. After the first weekend, after your husband returned, which he spent at the Paines, as you have described, where did he live in Dallas?

Mrs. Oswald. He said that he rented a room in Oak Cliff, but I don't know the address. I didn't ask, because I didn't need it.

Mr. Rankin. Do you know that he lived with a Mrs. Bledsoe at any time in Dallas?

Mrs. Oswald. Ruth met him at the bus station at that time and drove him home. By bus.

Mr. Rankin. You said before that you learned about the depository job at some neighbor's home, is that right?

Mrs. Oswald. I don't know her last name. When you walk out of the Paine house, it is the first house to the right. I am trying to remember. Perhaps later I will.

Mr. Rankin. Was it the lady of that house who told you, or someone that was a guest there?

Mr. Rankin. We don't know the name of the lady next door. We know a number of names, but not by the location.

Mrs. Oswald. Her first name is Dorothy. And there was another woman there, another neighbor, who said that her brother worked at the depository, and that as far as she knew, there was a vacancy there.

Mr. Rankin. And what was the name of that neighbor whose brother worked at the depository?

Mrs. Oswald. I didn't know his name. I knew that it was a young man. I don't think he was 18 yet.

Mr. Rankin. And was he the brother of this friend who was at the neighbor's house?

Mr. Rankin. And he was the one that your husband rode from Irving into Dallas from time to time to go to work, did he?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, after Lee was already working this boy would bring Lee and take him back with him to Dallas.

Mrs. Oswald. No, only during the last week when all of this happened with reference to the assassination of the President—he came on a Thursday.

52 Mr. Rankin. Did Mrs. Paine have anything to do with your husband getting this job at the depository?

Mrs. Oswald. She had no direct connection with it, but an indirect connection, of course. I lived with her and she talked to a neighbor and mentioned that Lee was out of work.

Mrs. Oswald. Yes. And she telephoned there and asked whether they had a job available. They didn't say anything specific but they asked that Lee come there on the following day.

Mr. Rankin. Did you find out whether your husband did go there the following day?

Mrs. Oswald. On the following day he went there, had a talk with them, and he telephoned that he had already received the job.

Mr. Rankin. And when did he start on the job? Was there two or three days before he got the job and started, or more than that?

Mrs. Oswald. I think that he started on the day following being accepted for the job. I think it was either on the 14th, 15th, or 16th of October.

Mr. Rankin. When he was staying at Mrs. Bledsoe's rooming house, did he call you and give you the number there?

Mr. Rankin. Yes, or the number that he gave you—that is the rooming house that he was at when he used this fictitious name, and you told us you called there.

Mrs. Oswald. He lived at first in one place, and then he changed. It was the last place where he had given a fictitious name. I don't know what name he lived under in the first place, because I never telephoned him.

Mr. Rankin. Do you know the name that he lived under in the second place, when you did call him?

Mrs. Oswald. I read in the paper after everything happened, but at that time I didn't know. He said that his last name was Lee. He didn't say that. I read that in the paper.

Mr. Rankin. Did that remind you, then, that that was the name they gave you when you called and he answered the telephone?

Mrs. Oswald. No, no one told me anything. I didn't know under what name he lived there.

Mr. Rankin. But you found out that he was not living under his own name, is that what you meant before?

Mr. Rankin. Do you remember whether that time he returned was on Friday or Saturday?

He stopped with Ruth. On Sunday I went to the hospital, and he stayed overnight from Monday until Tuesday.

Mr. Rankin. After your husband returned from Mexico, did you examine the rifle in the garage at any time?

Mrs. Oswald. I had never examined the rifle in the garage. It was wrapped in a blanket and was lying on the floor.

Mrs. Oswald. I never checked to see that. There was only once that I was interested in finding out what was in that blanket, and I saw that it was a rifle.

Mr. Rankin. On the weekend before your husband got his job at the depository, did he spend that with you at the Paines?

Mr. Rankin. When he returned to Dallas on Monday, the 14th of October, did he tell you he was going to change his room?

Mrs. Oswald. It seems that—it seems to me that it was from 8:30 a.m. to 5 p.m.

Mrs. Oswald. No. It does happen in that depository that they work overtime. But he did not have to work any.

Mr. Rankin. During the week when he was in Dallas and you were at Irving, did he call you from time to time?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes. Sometimes he would try to speak in English when someone was listening, and he didn't want them to know he spoke Russian—then he would try to speak in English.

Mr. Rankin. Did he ever speak in Spanish when he was talking to you from Dallas?

Mrs. Oswald. No. He doesn't speak Spanish. I don't either. His landlady heard him say "Adios" and she decided that he spoke Spanish, because she didn't understand that he had spoken Russian all that time.

Mrs. Oswald. Frazier is the last name? Wesley was that boy's name. I now remember.

Mr. Rankin. On these weekends, did you ever observe your husband going to the garage, practicing with the rifle in any way?

Mr. Rankin. Did you see him leave the house when he could have been going to the garage and practicing with his rifle?

Mrs. Oswald. No, he couldn't have practiced while we were at the Paine's, because Ruth was there. But whenever she was not at home, he tried to spend as much time as he could with me—he would watch television in the house. But he did go to the garage to look at our things that were there.

Mr. Rankin. And you don't know when he went there what he might have done with the rifle? Is that what you mean?

Mrs. Oswald. Excuse me. I think that it takes considerable time to practice with a rifle. He never spent any great deal of time in the garage.

Mr. Rankin. You have described your husband's practicing on the back porch at New Orleans with the telescopic scope and the rifle, saying he did that very regularly there.

Did you ever see him working the bolt, that action that opens the rifle, where you can put a shell in and push it back—during those times?

Mrs. Oswald. I did not see it, because it was dark, and I would be in the room at that time.

Mr. Rankin. Do you recall the weekend that you went to the hospital for your baby?

Mrs. Oswald. No. Ruth drove me at that time. He remained with June because June was crying and we could not leave her with strangers. He wanted to go with me, but we couldn't arrange it any other way.

Mrs. Oswald. About me and the child—he was very happy. He even had tears in his eyes.

Mrs. Oswald. No, he was working at that time, and he called me from work. But I didn't talk to him. He merely asked the nurse how I was doing.

Mr. Rankin. And those conversations would be reported to you by the nurse, then?

Mrs. Oswald. No, she didn't tell me about them. Because he telephoned to find out when I should be brought home, and he telephoned Ruth and asked her to let him know. But the nurse did tell me that my husband had called.

Mr. Rankin. Now, the weekend of October 25th to the 27th, did your husband return to Irving that weekend?

Mrs. Oswald. There were some weekends when he did not come. But this was at my request. It happened twice, I think. One such weekend was the occasion of the birthday of Mrs. Paine's daughter. And I knew that Lee didn't like Michael, Mrs. Paine's husband, and I asked him not to come.

The other I don't recall. I don't recall the date of this. But I remember that the weekend before he shot at the President, he did not come on Saturday and Sunday. Because we had a quarrel—that incident with the fictitious name.

It would be easier for me to remember if I knew the birthday of that girl. Perhaps you know. Perhaps you have it noted down somewhere.

Mrs. Oswald. Because I know that the FBI questioned me about it, and they had made a note about it. Because they wanted to determine each time when he did come and when did not.

Mr. Rankin. Now, if it was the weekend of November 16th and 17th that he remained in Dallas, would that help you as to the time of the birthday?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes. This was the weekend before the 21st, and he had not come home that weekend.

Mr. Rankin. Now, the neighbor next door that you referred to, where you learned about the job with the depository, could that have been Dorothy Roberts?

Mr. Rankin. Do you recall that your husband went to some meeting with Michael Paine in October of 1963?

It seems to me—I know for sure that this was one of the Fridays. It seems to me that this was the birthday—it was after dinner. They talked in English. I don't know about what. I know that they got together and went to some kind of a meeting.

Mrs. Oswald. Ruth said something about that, but I didn't understand anything. This was right after the incident with Stevenson, who was hit.

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, probably. This was not Lee's birthday. It was the week after that, the following Friday.

Mr. Rankin. We had some information that a telescopic sight was fitted to a gun for your husband on that date, and that is why I am asking you if there was any time that he could have left to have that done.

Mrs. Oswald. How is it about the telescope? He always had the telescope. Were there two?

Mrs. Oswald. This is not the truth, if they say that. Simply people talking. Perhaps someone who looked like Lee.

Mr. Rankin. Someone may be mistaken and thought that he had mounted a telescopic sight when he did it for someone else. And that is why we want to check with you.

When your husband went back to work on Monday, October 28th, did he drive with Wesley Frazier at that time?

Mrs. Oswald. It seems—it seems that he had overslept and that someone else had picked him up. But, no—no, I remember that he did not come to get him, but Lee met him near his house. Lee told me that. Or his sister. I don't remember. Lee told me about it. But I have forgotten.

Mrs. Oswald. No. He said his sister drove him to the bus. I only know that this boy did not come to get him that day.

Mr. Rankin. As far as you know, he may have gone all the way into Dallas in a car, or he may have gone in a bus?

Mrs. Oswald. Perhaps he hadn't told him to pick him up on that day. I don't know. I only know the fact that the boy did not pick him up on that day.

Mr. Rankin. We have reports of FBI interviews the last part of October, that is October 29, and also November 1, and November 5. We would like to ask you about them, since some of them may have been with Mrs. Paine in your presence or with you.

Mrs. Oswald. I don't remember the interview. Ruth interpreted—she talked to them.

Mr. Rankin. In order that the Commission will understand, whenever the FBI would try to ask you any questions, Mrs. Paine would interpret for you?

Mr. Rankin. And would she at the same time answer things in English, too, herself?

Mr. Rankin. The FBI was interviewing both of you at the same time, to some extent, is that right?

Mr. Rankin. Do you recall that you did have such an interview at Mrs. Paine's house when she acted as interpreter on November 1, 1963?

Mr. Rankin. Were you present on November 5, 1963, when FBI agents Hosty and Wilson interviewed Mrs. Paine at her home?

Mrs. Oswald. I was in my room at that time busy with little Rachel, and I heard voices which I thought were voices of the FBI. I came out of the room and they were in a hurry to leave. They did not talk to me at that time, other than just a greeting.

Mr. Rankin. Do you know whether or not they had been talking to Mrs. Paine about you or your husband?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes. She told me about it, but I was not especially interested. She does not interpret quite exactly. She is hard to understand. But she told me that in general terms.

Mr. Rankin. You have told us about the fact that you got the telephone number of the FBI agent and gave it to your husband. Was that the November 1 interview when that happened?

Mr. Rankin. I will hand you Exhibit 18, and ask you if you can identify that for us, and tell us what it is.

Mrs. Oswald. It must be, yes, I will find mine. There are many different handwritings in here. Different people have written in this notebook. Sometimes Russian friends in Russia would note their address in this notebook.

Mrs. Oswald. No. That is my aunt's address when Lee would remain in Minsk while I went on vacation.

Mr. Rankin. Is much of that notebook, Exhibit 18, in your husband's handwriting?

Mr. Rankin. Except for the page with your handwriting on it and the notations of other friends that you referred to, is it generally in your husband's handwriting?

Mrs. Oswald. I can tell exactly which is noted down by Lee and which is noted down by others.

Mr. Rankin. And there are a number of notations that were made after you returned to this country, is that right?

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 18, and received in evidence.)

Mrs. Oswald. There is a Russian term for "wedding ring" noted in there. Before we were married I wrote that down for him, because he didn't know the Russian expression for it. I didn't tell him. He looked it up in the dictionary himself and translated it.

Mr. Rankin. I would like to hand this back to you and call your attention to the page of Exhibit 18 where the little white slip is.

I ask you if you recognize the handwriting there, where it refers to Agent Hosty.

57 The license number, the name, and the telephone number are all in your husband's——

Mrs. Oswald. The date when he visited him, FBI agent, telephone, name, license number, and probably the address.

Mr. Rankin. Now, did you report to your husband the fact of this visit, November 1, with the FBI agent?

Mrs. Oswald. I didn't report it to him at once, but as soon as he came for a weekend, I told him about it.

Mrs. Oswald. Yes. Lee comes off work at 5:30—comes from work at 5:30. They left at 5 o'clock, and we told them if they wanted to they could wait and Lee would be here soon. But they didn't want to wait.

Mr. Rankin. And by "they" who do you mean? Do you recall the name of the other man beside Agent Hosty?

Mrs. Oswald. There was only one man during the first visit. I don't remember his name. This was probably the date because there is his name and the date.

Mr. Rankin. Now, what did you tell your husband about this visit by the FBI agent and the interview?

Mrs. Oswald. I told him that they had come, that they were interested in where he was working and where he lived, and he was, again, upset.

He said that he would telephone them—I don't know whether he called or not—or that he would visit them.

Mrs. Oswald. No. I told him about the content of the interview, but now I don't remember.

Mr. Rankin. Do you remember anything else that happened in the interview that you could tell the Commission at this time?

Mrs. Oswald. I told you that I had told them that I didn't want them to visit us, because we wanted to live peacefully, and that this was disturbing to us.

Mrs. Oswald. Excuse me. He said that he knew that Lee had been engaged in passing out leaflets for the Committee for Cuba, and he asked whether Lee was doing that here.

Mrs. Oswald. I said that Lee does not engage in such activities here. This was not like an interview. It was simply a conversation. We talked about even some trifles that had no relationship to politics.

Mr. Rankin. Do you know whether or not your husband had any interviews or conversations with the FBI during this period?

Mrs. Oswald. I know of two visits to the home of Ruth Paine, and I saw them each time. But I don't know of any interviews with Lee. Lee had told me that supposedly he had visited their office or their building. But I didn't believe him. I thought that he was a brave rabbit.

Mr. Rankin. Did your husband continue to call you daily from Dallas after he got his job?

Mrs. Oswald. Usually he would call me during the lunch break, and the second time after he was finished work, and he told me that he was reading, that he was watching television, and sometimes I told him that he should not stay in his room too much, that he should go for a walk in the park.

Mrs. Oswald. Or I would tell him to go out and eat, and he said that he would listen to me. I don't know to what extent he fulfilled my requests.

Mrs. Oswald. I remember that there was one weekend when he didn't come on a Friday, but said that he would come on a Saturday. And he said that that was because he wanted to visit another place—supposedly there was another job open, more interesting work.

Mr. Rankin. Did he say where this other job was that he thought was more interesting?

Mrs. Oswald. He said that this was also based upon an ad in a newspaper, and that it was connected—that it was related to photography. And he went there in the morning and then—on a Saturday—and then came to us, still during the morning.

It seems to me that there was a holiday on that day, on the 8th—elections—were there elections on that day?

Mrs. Oswald. I remember that day exactly. We didn't go anywhere on that Saturday.

Mrs. Oswald. Not always. Sometimes we would go together with Ruth and buy a few things.

Mr. Rankin. Did the three of you—Mrs. Paine and you and your husband go together to shop?

Mrs. Oswald. He may have tried to cash checks sometimes when he received unemployment compensation.

Mr. Rankin. As far as you know, he didn't try to cash a check of that size at this market?

Mrs. Oswald. I don't remember this market. I do remember one time when Lee wanted to cash a check, but it was $33.

Mrs. Oswald. Then I understand it. Because in Dallas I could not have been with him.

The Chairman. The hour of adjournment has arrived. So we will adjourn now until tomorrow morning at 10 o'clock.

Wednesday, February 5, 1964
TESTIMONY OF MRS. LEE HARVEY OSWALD RESUMED

The President's Commission met at 10 a.m., on February 5, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C.

Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Senator Richard B. Russell, Senator John Sherman Cooper, Representative Hale Boggs, Representative Gerald R. Ford, Allen W. Dulles, members.

Also present were J. Lee Rankin, general counsel; Norman Redlich, assistant counsel; Leon I. Gopadze and William D. Krimer, interpreters; John M. Thorne, attorney for Mrs. Lee Harvey Oswald; and Ruben Efron.

The Chairman. The Commission will be in order. We will continue with the examination. Mr. Rankin, you may proceed.

Mr. Rankin. Mrs. Oswald, have you become familiar with the English language to some extent?

Mr. Rankin. We had reports that you made some study at the Southern Methodist University. Is there anything to that?

Mrs. Oswald. I had no formal instructions in it, but a Russian acquaintance, Mr. Bouhe, wrote down some Russian phrases, and I would try to translate them into English.

Mr. Rankin. Now, since you have been living with the Martins, I assume you haven't had any Russian friends to try to translate English for you, is that right?

Mrs. Oswald. If you do not count Mr. Gopadze and the FBI interpreter, I have not been in contact with any Russians.

Mr. Rankin. And there were considerable periods during the time you have been living with the Martins when neither Mr. Gopadze or the FBI agent or translator were present, is that right?

Mr. Rankin. So have you been able to learn a little more English while you have been with the Martins than you had before, because of that experience?

At least it is very useful for me to live with an American family who do not speak Russian.

Mr. Rankin. That has helped you to learn some English, more than when you were living with Mrs. Paine, who could speak Russian to you, I take it.

Mr. Rankin. Now, when you were with the Martins the Secret Service people were there, too, were they not?

Mr. Rankin. Did you object to their being around and looking out for you as they did?

Mr. Rankin. How did the Martins treat you during the time you have been with them?

Mr. Rankin. Now, Mr. Thorne is your attorney. I understand that he told the Civil Liberties Union people of Dallas it was all right for the Secret Service60 people to be there with you and that you liked that arrangement and did not want to be interfered with. Was that satisfactory to you?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, because I received a letter from Mr. Olds, a leader of that union. In that letter he said that he sympathizes with my situation, that he supposed that the Secret Service treated me very badly and stopped me from doing something.

I answered him in a letter written in Russian which was later translated into English that all of this was not the truth.

Mr. Rankin. Did you feel any restraint or that you were being forced to do anything there while you were at the Martins that was not satisfactory to you?

Mr. Rankin. Anybody that tried to see you that you wanted to see during that time or from that time up to the present—I withdraw that.

Was anyone who you wished to see or wanted to see you that you were willing to see kept from seeing you at that time or up to the present?

Mrs. Oswald. Generally some people wanted to talk to me but they couldn't do so simply because I did not want to.

Mr. Rankin. And was that always the case, whenever you didn't talk to someone during that period of time?

Mr. Rankin. And whenever you did want to talk to someone or see someone, you were always able to do that, were you?

Mr. Rankin. And you were always able to meet with anyone that you wanted to, is that right?

Mr. Rankin. Now, it has been claimed that Mrs. Ruth Paine tried to see you at various times and was unable to do so. Can you tell us about that?

Mrs. Oswald. She is trying very hard to come to see me, but I have no desire to meet with her. I think that she is trying to do that for herself, rather than for me.

Mr. Rankin. And whenever you have refused to see her when she tries to see you, that is because you didn't want to see her yourself, is that right?

Mr. Rankin. What about the newspaper and television and radio people? Have some of those tried to see you while you were at the Martins?

Mrs. Oswald. I never wanted to be popular in such a bad sense in which I am now, and therefore I didn't want to see them. But I did have a television interview in which I said that I am relatively satisfied with my situation, that I am not too worried and I thanked people for their attention towards me.

Mr. Rankin. Will you describe to us your relationship with your mother-in-law now?

Mrs. Oswald. After all of this happened I met with her at the police station. I was, of course, very sorry for her as Lee's mother. I was always sorry for her because Lee did not want to live with her.

I understood her motherly concern. But in view of the fact of everything that happened later, her appearances in the radio, in the press, I do not think that she is a very sound thinking woman, and I think that part of the guilt is hers. I do not accuse her, but I think that part of the guilt in connection with what happened with Lee lies with her because he did not perhaps receive the education he should have during his childhood, and he did not have any correct leadership on her part, guidance. If she were in contact with my children now, I do not want her to cripple them.

Mrs. Oswald. Accidentally we met at the cemetery on a Sunday when I visited61 there, but I didn't want to meet with her, and I left. She didn't understand that I didn't want to meet with her and she accused the Secret Service personnel of preventing her from seeing me.

Mr. Rankin. Except for the time at the jail and at the cemetery, have you seen her since the assassination?

Mr. Rankin. At the time you did see your mother-in-law, did you observe any difference in her attitude towards you?

Mrs. Oswald. At first I said that I didn't see her any more. But after Lee was in jail I lived with her for some time at that inn.

Mrs. Oswald. The Six Flags. And inasmuch as I lived with her and met with her every day I could see—I was able to see the change. At least if her relationship with me was good, it was not sincere. I think that she does not like me. I don't think that she simply is able to like me.

There were some violent scenes, she didn't want to listen to anyone, there were hysterics. Everyone was guilty of everything and no one understood her.

Perhaps my opinion is wrong, but at least I do not want to live with her and to listen to scandals every day.

Mr. Rankin. Did she say anything to indicate that she blamed you in connection with the assassination?

Mr. Rankin. In your presence, at any time, did she accuse Ruth Paine of being involved in causing the assassination or being directly involved?

Mrs. Oswald. She told me but I didn't understand it because it was in English. She expresses more by rather stormy mimicry, thinking that that would get across and I would understand.

Mr. Rankin. You said that you didn't want to see Ruth Paine because you thought she wanted to see you for her own interests. Will you tell us what you meant by that?

Mrs. Oswald. I think that she wants to see me in her own selfish interests. She likes to be well known, popular, and I think that anything that I should write her, for example, would wind up in the press.

The reason that I think so is that the first time that we were in jail to see Lee, she was with me and with her children, and she was trying to get in front of the cameras, and to push her children and instructed her children to look this way and look that way. And the first photographs that appeared were of me with her children.

Mr. Rankin. Do you recall that in the note your husband left about the Walker incident, that there was a reference to the Red Cross, and that you might get help there? Did you ever obtain any help from the Red Cross before that date?

Mrs. Oswald. Well, because the Red Cross is an organization in all countries which helps people who need help, and in case I needed help, since I have no relatives here, I would be able to obtain it from this organization.

Mr. Rankin. Do you know whether or not your husband received any help from the Red Cross in money payments while he was in Russia?

Mr. Rankin. In that note you remember that there was a reference to an embassy—it didn't say which embassy. Do you know what embassy your husband was referring to?

Mr. Rankin. You told about the incident of De Mohrenschildt coming to the house and saying something about how your husband happened to miss, and your husband looked at you and looked at him, and seemed to think that you might have told. You have described that.

62 Now, did you have any cause to believe at that time that De Mohrenschildt knew anything about the Walker incident?

Mrs. Oswald. De Mohrenschildt didn't know anything about it. Simply he thought that this was something that Lee was likely to do. He simply made a joke and the joke happened to hit the target.

Mr. Rankin. Do you conclude that from what you knew about the situation or from something that De Mohrenschildt said at some time?

Mrs. Oswald. No, I know this, myself. I know that Lee could not have told him. And, otherwise, how would he have known?

Mr. Rankin. From your knowledge, were they close enough so that your husband would have made De Mohrenschildt a confidant about anything like that?

Mrs. Oswald. No matter how close Lee might be to anyone, he would not have confided such things.

Mr. Rankin. Do you recall the money that your husband borrowed from the Embassy in Moscow to come to this country? Do you know where he got the money to repay that amount?

Mrs. Oswald. He worked and we paid out the debt. For six or seven months we were paying off this debt.

Mr. Rankin. Some of the payments were rather large during that period. Do you remember that?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes. And no one will believe it—it may appear strange. But we lived very modestly. Perhaps for you it is hard to imagine how we existed.

No, Lee always handled the money, but I bought groceries. He gave me money and I bought groceries, or more correctly, together.

Mr. Rankin. You would usually go to the grocery store together to buy what you needed?

Mr. Rankin. And then did he give you any funds separately from that, for you to spend alone?

You asked me yesterday to make a list of how much we spent during a month—I forgot. Excuse me—I will do it today.

For example, when we paid $60 to $65 rent per month, we would spend only about $15 per week for groceries. As you see, I didn't die and I am not sick.

Mrs. Oswald. Not everything. At first some of our Russian friends would occasionally give us some clothes. But Lee would also buy clothes for me. But in America this is no problem.

Mrs. Oswald. In my opinion life is not very expensive here. Everyone buys according to his financial status, and no one walks around undressed. You can buy for $20 and at a sale you might buy for $2, clothes for an entire season.

Mr. Rankin. What about clothing for your child? Did you handle the buying of that?

Mrs. Oswald. Excuse me. Some of the things for children were given to us by friends who had children. But I didn't like them and I bought some.

Mr. Rankin. Returning to the date of November 11, 1963, did you recall that that was a holiday?

Mrs. Oswald. I don't remember that it was a holiday. We did not celebrate it. But something, I remember, was closed. Perhaps there were elections.

Mr. Rankin. That is Veterans Day in this country, and it was a Monday—refreshing your memory in that regard.

Mrs. Oswald. As always, he played with June and he helped me a little with preparation of lunch, and he sat around, watched television.

Mrs. Oswald. He didn't read. It seems to me that on that day he was typing. I don't know.

Mrs. Oswald. You remember you had a letter which mentioned Mexico and Kostin, it was that envelope.

Mrs. Oswald. Yes. You see the date is the 12th. You see, I can't remember a specific date, but some event I can connect with it brings it back.

Mr. Rankin. Do you remember whether your husband returned from Dallas to Irving at any time during that week?

Perhaps he didn't come. I am mixed up as to which weekends he did and didn't come.

Mr. Rankin. We have a statement from a Mr. Hutchison of the supermarket that I referred to yesterday that you and your husband were in his supermarket on November 13. Do you recall anything like that?

Mrs. Oswald. If the 12th was a Monday and the 13th a Tuesday, Lee was at work. He couldn't have been there.

Mr. Rankin. In one of your statements that you have given the FBI and the Secret Service you indicated that this particular weekend your husband stayed in Dallas—that is the 15th through the 17th of November. Does that refresh your memory?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes—the 15th to the 17th he remained in Dallas. That is, he didn't come that weekend.

Mr. Rankin. That would be the weekend before the assassination, to refresh your memory again.

Mrs. Oswald. You see, this is why I was not surprised that he didn't come—that he came, rather, he had not come on Friday and Saturday, and on Sunday I called him over the telephone and this is when he had a quarrel over the fictitious name.

By the way, he didn't come because I told him not to come. He had wanted to come, he had telephoned.

Mrs. Oswald. That he shouldn't come every week, that perhaps it is not convenient for Ruth that the whole family be there, live there.

Mrs. Oswald. Yes. And when he called me over the phone a second time I hung up and would not talk to him.

Mrs. Oswald. I said, "After all, when will all your foolishness come to an end? All of these comedies. First one thing then another. And now this fictitious name."

I didn't understand why. After all, it was nothing terrible if people were to find out that he had been in Russia.

Mr. Rankin. Do you remember an incident when he said you were a Czechoslovakian rather than a Russian?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes. We lived on Elsbeth Street, and he had told the landlady that I was from Czechoslovakia. But I didn't know about it, and when the64 landlady asked me, I told her I was from Russia. I told Lee about it that evening, and he scolded me for having said that.

Mrs. Oswald. That the landlady was very nice and she was very good to me and she was even pleased with the fact that I was from Russia.

Mr. Rankin. Did you object to your husband saying that you were from some country other than Russia?

Mrs. Oswald. I am not ashamed of the fact that I am from Russia. I can even be proud of the fact that I am Russian. And there is no need for me to hide it. Every person should be proud of his nationality and not be afraid or ashamed of it.

Mr. Rankin. On the weekend, when you called him, you said there was a fictitious name given.

Mrs. Oswald. I don't know what name he had given. He said that he was under a fictitious name, but he didn't tell me which.

Mrs. Oswald. When he was interviewed by some anti-Cubans, he used this name and spoke of an organization. I knew there was no such organization. And I know that Hidell is merely an altered Fidel, and I laughed at such foolishness. My imagination didn't work that way.

Mrs. Oswald. I said that it wasn't a nice thing to do and some day it would be discovered anyhow.

Mr. Rankin. Now, the weekend of November 15th to 17th, which was the weekend before the assassination, do you know what your husband did or how he spent that weekend while he was in Dallas?

Mr. Rankin. Do you know whether he took the rifle before he went into Dallas, that trip, for that weekend?

Mrs. Oswald. I don't know. I think that he took the rifle on Thursday when he came the next time, but I didn't see him take it. I assume that. I cannot know it.

Mr. Rankin. Except for the time in New Orleans that you described, and the time you called to Dallas to ask for your husband, do you know of any other time your husband was using an assumed name?

Mr. Rankin. Did you think he was using that assumed name in connection with this Fair Play for Cuba activity or something else?

Mrs. Oswald. The name Hidell, which you pronounced Hidell, was in connection with his activity with the non-existing organization.

Mr. Rankin. You were never identified as the Hidells, as far as you knew, while you were there?

Mrs. Oswald. I already said that when I listened to the radio, they spoke of that name, and I asked him who, and he said that it was he.

65 Mrs. Oswald. I don't remember when the interview took place, before the arrest or after.

Mr. Rankin. But it was in regard to some interview for radio transmission, and he had identified himself as Hidell, rather than Oswald, is that right?

Mrs. Oswald. No—he represented himself as Oswald, but he said that the organization which he supposedly represents is headed by Hidell.

Mr. Rankin. He was using the name Hidell, then, to have a fictitious president or head of the organization which really was he himself, is that right?

Mr. Rankin. You have told us about his practicing with the rifle, the telescopic lens, on the back porch at New Orleans, and also his using the bolt action that you heard from time to time.

Mrs. Oswald. I cannot describe that in greater detail. I can only say that Lee would sit there with the rifle and open and close the bolt and clean it. No, he didn't clean it at that time.

Mr. Rankin. And did he seem to be practicing with the telescopic lens, too, and sighting the gun on different objects?

Mrs. Oswald. I don't know. The rifle was always with this. I don't know exactly how he practiced, because I was in the house, I was busy. I just knew that he sits there with his rifle. I was not interested in it.

Mr. Rankin. Was it so dark that neighbors could not see him on the porch there with the gun?

Mr. Rankin. Now, during the week of the assassination, did your husband call you at all by telephone?

Mrs. Oswald. He telephoned me on Monday, after I had called him on Sunday, and he was not there.

Or, rather, he was there, but he wasn't called to the phone because he was known by another name.

On Monday he called several times, but after I hung up on him and didn't want to talk to him he did not call again. He then arrived on Thursday.

Mr. Rankin. Did you learn that he was using the assumed name of Lee as his last name?

Mrs. Oswald. He said that he was lonely because he hadn't come the preceding weekend, and he wanted to make his peace with me.

Mrs. Oswald. He tried to talk to me but I would not answer him, and he was very upset.

Mrs. Oswald. I was angry, of course. He was not angry—he was upset. I was angry. He tried very hard to please me. He spent quite a bit of time putting away diapers and played with the children on the street.

Mrs. Oswald. He was upset over the fact that I would not answer him. He tried to start a conversation with me several times, but I would not answer. And he said that he didn't want me to be angry at him because this upsets him.

On that day, he suggested that we rent an apartment in Dallas. He said that66 he was tired of living alone and perhaps the reason for my being so angry was the fact that we were not living together. That if I want to he would rent an apartment in Dallas tomorrow—that he didn't want me to remain with Ruth any longer, but wanted me to live with him in Dallas.

He repeated this not once but several times, but I refused. And he said that once again I was preferring my friends to him, and that I didn't need him.

Mrs. Oswald. I said it would be better if I remained with Ruth until the holidays, he would come, and we would all meet together. That this was better because while he was living alone and I stayed with Ruth, we were spending less money. And I told him to buy me a washing machine, because two children it became too difficult to wash by hand.

Mrs. Oswald. Thank you. That it would be better if he bought something for himself—that I would manage.

Mr. Rankin. Did this seem to make him more upset, when you suggested that he wait about getting an apartment for you to live in?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes. He then stopped talking and sat down and watched television and then went to bed. I went to bed later. It was about 9 o'clock when he went to sleep. I went to sleep about 11:30. But it seemed to me that he was not really asleep. But I didn't talk to him.

In the morning he got up, said goodbye, and left, and that I shouldn't get up—as always, I did not get up to prepare breakfast. This was quite usual.

And then after I fed Rachel, I took a look to see whether Lee was here, but he had already gone. This was already after the police had come. Ruth told me that in the evening she had worked in the garage and she knows that she had put out the light but that the light was on later—that the light was on in the morning. And she guessed that Lee was in the garage.

Mr. Rankin. Did she tell you when she thought your husband had been in the garage, what time of the day?

Mrs. Oswald. She thought that it was during the evening, because the light remained on until morning.

Mrs. Oswald. No, not for that reason, but because I had to wash dishes and be otherwise busy with the household—take a bath.

Mr. Rankin. Mrs. Oswald, why did the use of this false name by your husband make you so angry? Would you explain that a little bit?

Mrs. Oswald. It would be unpleasant and incomprehensible to any wife if her husband used a fictitious name. And then, of course, I thought that if he would see that I don't like it and that I explained to him that this is not the smart thing to do, that he would stop doing it.

Mr. Rankin. Did you feel that you were becoming more impatient with all of these things that your husband was doing, the Fair Play for Cuba and the Walker incident, and then this fictitious name business?

Every day I was waiting for some kind of a new surprise. I couldn't wait to find out what else would he think of.

Mrs. Oswald. I said that no one needed anything like that, that for no67 reason at all he was thinking that he was not like other people, that he was more important.

Mrs. Oswald. He would seem to agree, but then would continue again in two or three days.

Mr. Rankin. Did you sense that he was not intending to carry out his agreement with you to not have another Walker incident or anything like that?

Mrs. Oswald. I generally didn't think that Lee would repeat anything like that. Generally, I knew that the rifle was very tempting for him. But I didn't believe that he would repeat it. It was hard to believe.

Mr. Rankin. I wasn't clear about when Mrs. Paine thought that your husband might have been in the garage and had the light on. Can you give us any help on the time of day that she had in mind?

Mrs. Oswald. In the morning she thought about it. But she didn't attach any significance to it at that time. It was only after the police had come that this became more significant for her.

Mr. Rankin. So she thought it was in the morning after he got up from his night's rest that he might have gone to the garage, turned on the light?

Mrs. Oswald. In my opinion, she thought that it was at night, or during the evening that he had been in the garage and turned on the light. At least that is what she said to me. I don't know.

Mr. Rankin. Did she indicate whether she thought it was before he went to bed at 9 o'clock?

Mrs. Oswald. I don't know. At first it seems it wasn't nine, it was perhaps ten o'clock when Lee went to bed. And first, Ruth went to her room and then Lee went. He was there after her.

Mr. Rankin. So he might have been in the garage sometime between 9 and 10? Was that what you thought?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes. But I think that he might have even been there in the morning and turned on the light.

Mr. Rankin. On this evening when you were angry with him, had he come home with the young Mr. Frazier that day?

Mr. Rankin. When was the last time that you had noticed the rifle before that day?

Mrs. Oswald. I said that I saw—for the first and last time I saw the rifle about a week after I had come to Mrs. Paine.

But, as I said, the rifle was wrapped in a blanket, and I was sure when the police had come that the rifle was still in the blanket, because it was all rolled together. And, therefore, when they took the blanket and the rifle was not in it, I was very much surprised.

Mr. Rankin. Could you describe for the Commission the place in the garage where the rifle was located?

Mrs. Oswald. When you enter the garage from the street it was in the front part, the left.

Mrs. Oswald. It is an overhead door and the rifle was to the left, on the floor.

Mrs. Oswald. Next to it there were some—next to the rifle there were some suitcases and Ruth had some paper barrels in the garage where the kids used to play.

Mr. Rankin. The way the rifle was wrapped with a blanket, could you tell whether or not the rifle had been removed and the blanket just left there at any time?

Mrs. Oswald. It always had the appearance of having something inside of it. But I only looked at it really once, and I was always sure the rifle was in it. Therefore, it is very hard to determine when the rifle was taken. I only68 assumed that it was on Thursday, because Lee had arrived so unexpectedly for some reason.

Mr. Rankin. Did you believe that the reason for his coming out to see you Thursday was to make up?

Mrs. Oswald. I think there were two reasons. One was to make up with me, and the other to take the rifle. This is—this, of course, is not irreconcilable.

Mr. Rankin. But you think he came to take the rifle because of what you learned since. Is that it?

Mr. Rankin. Before this incident about the fictitious name, were you and your husband getting along quite well?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes. When he went to answer some ads, he preferred to get some work connected with photography rather than this work. He liked this work relatively speaking—he liked it. But, of course, he wanted to get something better.

Mrs. Oswald. Yes. It was interesting for him. When he would see his work in the newspaper he would always point it out.

Mr. Rankin. He had a reference in his notebook to the word "Microdot". Do you know what he meant by that?

Mrs. Oswald. He was polite to her, as an acquaintance would be, but he didn't like her. He told me that he detested her—a tall and stupid woman. She is, of course, not too smart, but most people aren't.

Mr. Rankin. Did he ever say anything to indicate he thought Mrs. Paine was coming between him and you?

Mrs. Oswald. She didn't say anything bad. I don't know what she thought. But she didn't say anything bad.

Perhaps she didn't like something about him, but she didn't tell me. She didn't want to hurt me by saying anything.

Mr. Rankin. I have understood from your testimony that you did not really care to go to Russia but your husband was the one that was urging that, and that is why you requested the visa, is that correct?

Mr. Rankin. And later he talked about not only you and your child going, but also his going with you, is that right?

Mrs. Oswald. At one time—I don't remember whether he was working at that time or not—he was very sad and upset. He was sitting and writing something in his notebook. I asked him what he was writing and he said, "It would be better if I go with you."

Then he went into the kitchen and he sat there in the dark, and when I came in I saw that he was crying. I didn't know why. But, of course, when a man is crying it is not a very pleasant thing, and I didn't start to question him about why.

Mr. Rankin. Did you at that time say anything to him about your all staying in this country and getting along together?

Mrs. Oswald. I told him, of course, that it would be better for us to stay here. But if it was very difficult for him and if he was always worried about tomorrow, then perhaps it would be better if we went.

Mr. Rankin. On the evening of the 21st, was anything said about curtain rods or his taking curtain rods to town the following day?

Mrs. Oswald. He said that he probably would not come on Friday, and he didn't come—he was in jail.

Mr. Rankin. Did the quarrel that you had at that time seem to cause him to be more disturbed than usual?

Mrs. Oswald. No, not particularly. At least he didn't talk about that quarrel when he came. Usually he would remember about what happened. This time he didn't blame me for anything, didn't ask me any questions, just wanted to make up.

Mr. Rankin. I understood that when you didn't make up he was quite disturbed and you were still angry, is that right?

Mrs. Oswald. I wasn't really very angry. I, of course, wanted to make up with him. But I gave the appearance of being very angry. I was smiling inside, but I had a serious expression on my face.

Mr. Rankin. And as a result of that, did he seem to be more disturbed than usual?

Mrs. Oswald. As always, as usual. Perhaps a little more. At least when he went to bed he was very upset.

Mr. Rankin. Do you think that had anything to do with the assassination the next day?

Mrs. Oswald. Perhaps he was thinking about all of that. I don't think that he was asleep. Because, in the morning when the alarm clock went off he hadn't woken up as usual before the alarm went off, and I thought that he probably had fallen asleep very late. At least then I didn't think about it. Now I think so.

Mr. Rankin. When he said he would not be home that Friday evening, did you ask him why?

Mrs. Oswald. He said that since he was home on Thursday, that it wouldn't make any sense to come again on Friday, that he would come for the weekend.

Mr. Rankin. Did that cause you to think that he had any special plans to do anything?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, in my room at Ruth Paine's there was a black wallet in a wardrobe. Whenever Lee would come he would put money in there, but I never counted it.

Mr. Rankin. On the evening of November 21st, do you know how much was in the wallet?

Mrs. Oswald. No. One detail that I remember was that he had asked me whether I had bought some shoes for myself, and I said no, that I hadn't had any time. He asked me whether June needed anything and told me to buy everything that I needed for myself and for June—and for the children.

Mrs. Oswald. No, he generally kept the amount that he needed and put the rest in the wallet.

I know that the money that was found there, that you think this was not Lee's money. But I know for sure that this was money that he had earned. He had some money left after his trip to Mexico. Then we received an unemployment compensation check for $33. And then Lee paid only $7 or $8 for his room. And I know how he eats, very little.

Mrs. Oswald. Peanut butter sandwich, cheese sandwich, some lettuce, and he would buy himself a hamburger, something else, a coke.

Mr. Rankin. And what about his evening meal? Do you know what he ate in the evening meal?

The place where he rented a room, he could not cook there. He said that there was some sort of a cafe across the street and that he ate there.

Mr. Rankin. What about his breakfast? Do you know what he had for breakfast ordinarily?

Mr. Rankin. Mr. Reporter, will you note the presence of Mr. Ruben Efron in the hearing room. He also knows Russian.

On November 21, the day before the assassination that you were describing, was there any discussion between you and your husband about President Kennedy's trip or proposed trip to Texas, Dallas and the Fort Worth area?

Mrs. Oswald. I asked Lee whether he knew where the President would speak, and told him that I would very much like to hear him and to see him. I asked him how this could be done.

But he said he didn't know how to do that, and didn't enlarge any further on that subject.

Mrs. Oswald. This was also somewhat unusual—his lack of desire to talk about that subject any further.

Mrs. Oswald. The fact that he didn't talk a lot about it. He merely gave me—said something as an answer, and did not have any further comments.

Mr. Rankin. Do you mean by that usually he would discuss a matter of that kind and show considerable interest?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, of course, he would have told who would be there and where this would take place.

Mr. Rankin. Did you say anything about his showing a lack of interest at that time?

Mr. Rankin. Now, prior to that time, had there been any discussion between you concerning the proposed trip of President Kennedy to Texas?

Mr. Rankin. While you were in New Orleans, was there any discussion or reference to President Kennedy's proposed trip to Texas?

Mr. Rankin. Did your husband make any comments about President Kennedy on that evening, of the 21st?

Mr. Rankin. Had your husband at any time that you can recall said anything against President Kennedy?

Mrs. Oswald. I don't remember any—ever having said that. I don't know. He never told me that.

Mrs. Oswald. Usually he would translate magazine articles. They were generally good. And he did not say that this contradicted his opinion. I just remembered that he talked about Kennedy's father, who made his fortune by a not very—in a not very good manner. Disposing of such funds, of course, it was easier for his sons to obtain an education and to obtain a government position, and it was easier to make a name for themselves.

Mr. Rankin. What did he say about President Kennedy's father making his fortune?

Mrs. Oswald. He said that he had speculated in wine. I don't know to what extent that is true.

Mr. Rankin. When he read these articles to you, did he comment favorably upon President Kennedy?

71 Mrs. Oswald. I have already said that he would translate articles which were good, but he would not comment on them.

Mrs. Oswald. Excuse me. At least when I found out that Lee had shot at the President, for me this was surprising. And I didn't believe it. I didn't believe for a long time that Lee had done that. That he had wanted to kill Kennedy—because perhaps Walker was there again, perhaps he wanted to kill him.

Mrs. Oswald. Because I had never heard anything bad about Kennedy from Lee. And he never had anything against him.

Mrs. Oswald. No, he didn't say anything. Perhaps he did reach his own conclusions reading these articles, but he didn't tell me about them.

Mr. Rankin. So apparently he didn't indicate any approval or disapproval as far as he was concerned, of President Kennedy?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, that is correct. The President is the President. In my opinion, he never wanted to overthrow him. At least he never showed me that. He never indicated that he didn't want that President.

Mr. Rankin. Did you observe that his acts on November 21st the evening before the assassination, were anything like they were the evening before the Walker incident?

Mr. Rankin. Did he say anything at all that would indicate he was contemplating the assassination?

Mr. Rankin. Did he discuss the television programs he saw that evening with you?

Mrs. Oswald. He was looking at TV by himself. I was busy in the kitchen. At one time when we were—when I was together with him they showed some sort of war films, from World War II. And he watched them with interest.

Mr. Rankin. Do you recall films that he saw called "Suddenly," and "We were Strangers" that involved assassinations?

Mrs. Oswald. I don't remember the names of these films. If you would remind me of the contents, perhaps I would know.

Mr. Rankin. Well, "Suddenly," was about the assassination of a president, and the other was about the assassination of a Cuban dictator.

Mr. Rankin. Do you recall about when this was with reference to the date of the assassination?

Mr. Rankin. Did you discuss the films after you had seen them with your husband?

Mrs. Oswald. One film about the assassination of the president in Cuba, which I had seen together with him, he said that this was a fictitious situation, but that the content of the film was similar to the actual situation which existed in Cuba, meaning the revolution in Cuba.

Mr. Rankin. Did either of you comment on either film being like the attempt on Walker's life?

Mr. Rankin. Was anything said by your husband about how easy an assassination could be committed like that?

Mrs. Oswald. No. I only know that he watched the film with interest, but I didn't like it.

72 Mrs. Oswald. Nothing else. He didn't tell me anything else. He talked to Ruth a few words. Perhaps she knows more.

Mr. Rankin. Do you recall your husband saying at any time after he saw the film about the Cuban assassination that this was the old-fashioned way of assassination?

Mr. Rankin. Do you recall anything being said by your husband at any time about Governor Connally?

Mrs. Oswald. Well, while we were still in Russia, and Connally at that time was Secretary of the Navy, Lee wrote him a letter in which he asked Connally to help him obtain a good character reference because at the end of his Army service he had a good characteristic—honorable discharge—but that it had been changed after it became known he had gone to Russia.

Mrs. Oswald. Yes. Then we received a letter from Connally in which he said that he had turned the matter over to the responsible authorities. That was all in Russia.

But here it seems he had written again to that organization with a request to review. But he said from time to time that these are bureaucrats, and he was dissatisfied.

Mrs. Oswald. I don't know. I only know about the fact, but when and how, I don't know.

Mr. Rankin. Did your husband say anything to you to indicate he had a dislike for Governor Connally?

But while we were in Russia he spoke well of him. It seems to me that Connally was running for Governor and Lee said that when he would return to the United States he would vote for him.

Mr. Rankin. That is all that you remember that he said about Governor Connally then?

Mr. Rankin. With regard to the Walker incident, you said that your husband seemed disturbed for several weeks. Did you notice anything of that kind with regard to the day prior to the assassination?

Mr. Rankin. On November 22, the day of the assassination, you said your husband got up and got his breakfast. Did you get up at all before he left?

Mrs. Oswald. No. I woke up before him, and I then went to the kitchen to see whether he had had breakfast or not—whether he had already left for work. But the coffee pot was cold and Lee was not there.

And when I met Ruth that morning, I asked her whether Lee had had coffee or not, and she said probably, perhaps he had made himself some instant coffee.

Mr. Rankin. Then did he say anything to you that morning at all, or did he get up and go without speaking to you?

Mrs. Oswald. He told me to take as much money as I needed and to buy everything, and said goodbye, and that is all.

After the police had already come, I noticed that Lee had left his wedding ring.

Mr. Rankin. You didn't observe that that morning when your husband had left, did you?

73 Mr. Rankin. Do you know approximately what time your husband left that morning?

Mrs. Oswald. I have written it there, but I have now forgotten whether it was seven or eight. But a quarter to eight—I don't know. I have now forgotten.

Mr. Rankin. Did you ever see a paper bag or cover for the rifle at the Paine's residence or garage?

Mr. Rankin. Where did your husband have his lunch? Did he take a sandwich to the depository, or did he go home to his rooming house for lunch? Do you know?

Mrs. Oswald. He usually took sandwiches to lunch. But I don't know whether he would go home or not.

Mr. Rankin. Had your husband ever left his wedding ring at home that way before?

Mrs. Oswald. At one time while he was still at Fort Worth, it was inconvenient for him to work with his wedding ring on and he would remove it, but at work—he would not leave it at home. His wedding ring was rather wide, and it bothered him.

Mr. Rankin. Then this is the first time during your married life that he had ever left it at home where you live?

Mr. Rankin. Do you know whether your husband carried any package with him when he left the house on November 22nd?

Mr. Rankin. Do you know whether he had any package like a rifle in some container?

Mr. Rankin. What did you do the rest of the morning, after you got up on November 22d?

Mrs. Oswald. When I got up the television set was on, and I knew that Kennedy was coming. Ruth had gone to the doctor with her children and she left the television set on for me. And I watched television all morning, even without having dressed. She was running around in her pajamas and watching television with me.

Mr. Rankin. Before the assassination, did you ever see your husband examining the route of the parade as it was published in the paper?

Mr. Rankin. Did you ever see him looking at a map of Dallas like he did in connection with the Walker shooting?

Mrs. Oswald. I was watching television, and Ruth by that time was already with me, and she said someone had shot at the President.

Mrs. Oswald. It was hard for me to say anything. We both turned pale. I went to my room and cried.

Mr. Rankin. Did you think immediately that your husband might have been involved?

74 Mr. Rankin. Did Mrs. Paine say anything about the possibility of your husband being involved?

Mrs. Oswald. No, but she only said that "By the way, they fired from the building in which Lee is working."

My heart dropped. I then went to the garage to see whether the rifle was there, and I saw that the blanket was still there, and I said, "Thank God." I thought, "Can there really be such a stupid man in the world that could do something like that?" But I was already rather upset at that time—I don't know why. Perhaps my intuition.

Mrs. Oswald. I didn't unroll the blanket. It was in its usual position, and it appeared to have something inside.

Mr. Rankin. And what about Mrs. Paine? Did she look in the blanket to see if the rifle was there?

Mrs. Oswald. When the police arrived and asked whether my husband had a rifle, and I said "Yes."

Mrs. Oswald. They began to search the apartment. When they came to the garage and took the blanket, I thought, "Well, now, they will find it."

Then, of course, I already knew that it was Lee. Because, before that, while I thought that the rifle was at home, I did not think that Lee had done that. I thought the police had simply come because he was always under suspicion.

Mrs. Oswald. I don't remember now. I was so upset that I don't remember what I said.

Mr. Rankin. Did you tell them about your husband leaving his wedding ring that morning?

Mr. Rankin. Did you tell them that you had looked for the gun you thought was in the blanket?

Mr. Rankin. Did you watch the police open the blanket to see if the rifle was there?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes. She told me about what they had said. But I was not being questioned so that she would interpret. She told me herself. She very much loved to talk and she welcomed the occasion.

Mr. Rankin. You mean by that that she answered questions of the police and then told you what she had said?

Mrs. Oswald. She talked to them in the usual manner, in English, when they were addressing her.

Mr. Rankin. Do you recall the exact time of the day that you discovered the wedding ring there at the house?

Mrs. Oswald. About 2 o'clock, I think. I don't remember. Then everything got mixed up, all time.

Mrs. Oswald. Rather gruff, not very polite. They kept on following me. I wanted to change clothes because I was dressed in a manner fitting to the house. And they would not even let me go into the dressing room to change.

I asked them, but they didn't want to. They were rather rough. They kept on saying, hurry up.

Mrs. Oswald. Yes—everything, even some tapes—Ruth's tapes from a tape recorder, her things. I don't know what.

Mrs. Oswald. I didn't watch at that time. After all, it is not my business. If they need it, let them take it.

Mrs. Oswald. No. I know that I am missing my documents, that I am missing Lee's documents, Lee's wedding ring.

Mrs. Oswald. Robert had some of Lee's clothing. I don't know what was left of Lee's things, but I hope they will return it. No one needs it.

Mrs. Oswald. My foreign passport, my immigration card, my birth certificate, my wedding certificate—marriage certificate, June's and Rachel's birth certificates. Then various letters, my letters from friends. Perhaps something that has some bearing—photographs, whatever has some reference—whatever refers to the business at hand, let it remain.

Mrs. Oswald. I didn't see what they took. At least at the present time I have none of Lee's documents.

Mr. Rankin. The documents of his that you refer to that you don't have are similar to your own that you described?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes. He also had a passport, several work books, labor cards. I don't know what men here—what sort of documents men here carry.

Afternoon Session
TESTIMONY OF MRS. LEE HARVEY OSWALD RESUMED

Mr. Rankin. Mrs. Oswald, we will hand you Exhibit 19, which purports to be an envelope from the Soviet Embassy at Washington, dated November 4, 1963, and ask you if you recall seeing the original or a copy of that.

Mrs. Oswald. I had not seen this envelope before, but Lee had told me that a letter had been received in my name from the Soviet Embassy with congratulations on the October Revolution—on the date of the October Revolution.

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, because the date coincides, and I didn't get any other letters.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 19, and received in evidence.)

Mr. Rankin. In some newspaper accounts your mother-in-law has intimated that your husband might have been an agent for some government, and that she might have—did have information in that regard.

Mr. Rankin. Did you ever know that you husband was at any time an agent of the Soviet Union?

Mr. Rankin. Did you ever know that your husband was an agent of the Cuban government at any time?

Mr. Rankin. Did you ever know that your husband was an agent of any agency of the United States Government?

Mr. Rankin. Do you have any idea of the motive which induced your husband to kill the President?

Mrs. Oswald. From everything that I know about my husband, and of the events that transpired, I can conclude that he wanted in any way, whether good or bad, to do something that would make him outstanding, that he would be known in history.

Mr. Rankin. And is it then your belief that he assassinated the President, for this purpose?

Mr. Rankin. And what about his shooting at General Walker? Do you think he had the same motive or purpose in doing that?

Mr. Rankin. After the assassination, were you coerced or abused in any way by the police or anyone else in connection with the inquiry about the assassination?

Mr. Rankin. Did you see or speak to your husband on November 22d, following his arrest?

Mr. Rankin. And when you met with him on the 23d, was it at your request or his?

77 Mrs. Oswald. I don't know whether he requested it, but I know that I wanted to see him.

Mr. Rankin. Did you request the right to see your husband on the 22d, after his arrest?

Mrs. Oswald. On the day of the assassination, on the 22d, after returning from questioning by the police, I spent the night with Mrs. Paine, together with Lee's mother.

Mr. Rankin. When you saw your husband on November 23d, the day after the assassination, did you have a conversation with him?

Mr. Rankin. Well, I need your best recollection, if you can give it to us, Mrs. Oswald.

Mrs. Oswald. Of course he tried to console me that I should not worry, that everything would turn out well. He asked about how the children were. He spoke of some friends who supposedly would help him. I don't know who he had in mind. That he had written to someone in New York before that. I was so upset that of course I didn't understand anything of that. It was simply talk.

Mrs. Oswald. I told him that the police had been there and that a search had been conducted, that they had asked me whether we had a rifle, and I had answered yes.

And he said that if there would be a trial, and that if I am questioned it would be my right to answer or to refuse to answer.

Mr. Gopadze. She asked me if she talked about that thing, the first evening when I talked to her with the FBI agents, she asked me if she didn't have to tell me if she didn't want to. And warning her of her constitutional rights, telling her she didn't have to tell me anything she didn't want to—at that time, she told me she knew about that, that she didn't have to tell me if she didn't want to.

Mrs. Oswald. And he then asked me, "Who told you you had that right?" And then I understood that he knew about it.

Mrs. Oswald. I thought you had been told about it because the conversation had certainly been written down. I am sure that while I was talking to Lee—after all, this was not some sort of a trial of a theft, but a rather important matter, and I am sure that everything was recorded.

As I understand it, Mr. Gopadze had talked to you with the FBI agents after the assassination, and they had cautioned you that you didn't have to talk, in accordance with your constitutional rights, is that correct?

Mr. Gopadze. Mrs. Oswald, on her own accord, asked me, or told me that she didn't have to tell us anything she didn't want to.

Mrs. Oswald. I disliked him immediately, because he introduced himself as being from the FBI. I was at that time very angry at the FBI because I thought perhaps Lee is not guilty, and they have merely tricked him.

Mr. Gopadze. Mr. Rankin, may I, for the benefit of the Commission—I would like to mention that I didn't represent myself as being an FBI agent. I just said that I was a government agent, with the FBI. And I introduced both agents to Mrs. Oswald.

Mr. Rankin. And, Mrs. Oswald, you thought he was connected with the FBI in some way, did you?

Mr. Rankin. Your ill feeling towards the FBI was due to the fact that you thought they were trying to obtain evidence to show your husband was guilty in regard to the assassination?

Mr. Rankin. But you have said since the assassination that you didn't want to believe it, but you had to believe that your husband had killed President Kennedy, is that right?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes. There were some facts, but not too many, and I didn't know too much about it at that time yet. After all, there are in life some accidental concurrences of circumstances. And it is very difficult to believe in that.

Mr. Rankin. But from what you have learned since that time, you arrived at this conclusion, did you, that your husband had killed the President?

Mr. Rankin. And you related those facts that you learned to what you already knew about your life with him and what you knew he had done and appeared to be doing in order to come to that conclusion?

Mr. Rankin. When you saw your husband on November 23d, at the police station, did you ask him if he had killed President Kennedy?

Mrs. Oswald. No. I said, "I don't believe that you did that, and everything will turn out well."

Mrs. Oswald. He said that I should not worry, that everything would turn out well. But I could see by his eyes that he was guilty. Rather, he tried to appear to be brave. However, by his eyes I could tell that he was afraid.

Mr. Rankin. Would you help us a little bit by telling us what you saw in his eyes that caused you to think that?

Mrs. Oswald. He said goodbye to me with his eyes. I knew that. He said that everything would turn out well, but he did not believe it himself.

Mr. Rankin. Did your husband ever at any time say to you that he was responsible or had anything to do with the killing of President Kennedy?

Mrs. Oswald. After Kennedy—I only saw him once, and he didn't tell me anything, and I didn't see him again.

Mr. Rankin. And did he at any time tell you that he had anything to do with the shooting of Officer Tippit?

79 Mr. Rankin. Did you ever ask your husband why he ran away or tried to escape after the assassination?

Mr. Rankin. On either November 22d, or Saturday, November 23d, did anyone contact you and advise you that your husband was going to be shot?

Mrs. Oswald. After seeing Lee, we went with some reporters of Life Magazine who had rented a room, but it turned out to be—in a hotel—but it turned out to be inconvenient because there were many people there and we went to another place. We were in a hotel in Dallas, but I don't know the name.

Mrs. Oswald. I saw Robert in the police—at the police station, but he did not stay with us at the hotel.

Mr. Rankin. At that time did the reporters come there and the Life reporters, and ask you and your mother-in-law and Mrs. Paine about what had happened?

Mr. Rankin. We have a report that there was quite a scene between Mrs. Paine and your mother-in-law at that time. Was there such an event?

Mrs. Oswald. I did not understand English too well, and I did not know what they were quarreling about. I know that the reporters wanted to talk to me, but his mother made a scene and went into hysterics, and said I should not talk and that she would not talk.

Mrs. Oswald. Perhaps she said it in English. I didn't understand. She talked to the reporters.

Mr. Rankin. Did she say anything about being paid if she was going to tell any story?

Mr. Rankin. Did you understand that she was quarreling with Ruth Paine about something concerning the interview?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes. It appeared to be a quarrel, but what they quarreled about, I don't know.

Mrs. Oswald. I went to my room. But then I showed Lee's mother the photograph, where he is photographed with a rifle, and told her he had shot at Walker and it appeared he might have been shooting at the President. She said that I should hide that photograph and not show it to anyone.

On the next day I destroyed one photograph which I had. I think I had two small ones. When we were in the hotel I burned it.

Mr. Rankin. Did you say anything to her about the destruction of the photographs when she suggested that?

Mr. Rankin. After the assassination, did the police and FBI and the Secret Service ask you many questions?

Mrs. Oswald. In the police station there was a routine regular questioning, as always happens. And then after I was with the agents of the Secret Service and the FBI, they asked me many questions, of course—many questions. Sometimes the FBI agents asked me questions which had no bearing or relationship, and if I didn't want to answer they told me that if I wanted to live in this country, I would have to help in this matter, even though they were often irrelevant. That is the FBI.

Mr. Rankin. You understand that you do not have to tell this Commission in order to stay in this country, don't you, now?

Mr. Rankin. You are not under any compulsion to tell the Commission here in order to be able to stay in the country.

Mr. Rankin. And you have come here because you want to tell us what you could about this matter, is that right?

Mr. Rankin. Did these various people from the police and the Secret Service and the FBI treat you courteously when they asked you about the matters that they did, concerning the assassination and things leading up to it?

Mrs. Oswald. I have a very good opinion about the Secret Service, and the people in the police department treated me very well. But the FBI agents were somehow polite and gruff. Sometimes they would mask a gruff question in a polite form.

Mr. Rankin. Did you see anyone from the Immigration Service during this period of time?

Mrs. Oswald. I don't remember the name. I think he is the chairman of that office. At least he was a representative of that office.

Mrs. Oswald. I was told that he had especially come from New York, it seems to me.

Mrs. Oswald. That if I was not guilty of anything, if I had not committed any crime against this Government, then I had every right to live in this country. This was a type of introduction before the questioning by the FBI. He even said that it would be better for me if I were to help them.

Mrs. Oswald. In the sense that I would have more rights in this country. I understood it that way.

Mr. Rankin. Did you understand that you were being threatened with deportation if you didn't answer these questions?

You see, it was presented in such a delicate form, but there was a clear implication that it would be better if I were to help.

Mrs. Oswald. This was not quite a threat—it was not a threat. But it was their great desire that I be in contact, in touch with the FBI. I sensed that.

Mr. Rankin. Did anyone indicate that it would affect your ability to work in this country if you cooperated?

Mr. Rankin. Is there anything else about your treatment by law enforcement officials during this period that you would like to tell the Commission about?

Mrs. Oswald. I think that the FBI agents knew that I was afraid that after everything that had happened I could not remain to live in this country, and they somewhat exploited that for their own purposes, in a very polite form, so that you could not say anything after that. They cannot be accused of anything. They approached it in a very clever, contrived way.

Mr. Rankin. Was there anyone else of the law enforcement officials that you felt treated you in that manner?

Mrs. Oswald. No. As for the rest, I was quite content. Everyone was very attentive towards me.

81 Mr. Rankin. Where were you on the morning of November 24th when your husband was killed?

Mrs. Oswald. The night from the 23d to the 24th I spent at a hotel in Dallas, together with the mother. She wanted to make sure that the Life reporters who had taken this room would pay for it, as they had promised. But they disappeared. Then she telephoned Robert, it seems to me, and Gregory—no, Mr. Gregory. And I know that he came with Robert, and Robert paid for the room. And, after that, after we left the hotel, we met with the Secret Service agents. I wanted to see Lee, and we were supposed to go to the police station to see him.

Mrs. Oswald. I don't remember whether we went to Ruth to take my things or perhaps—in general, I remember that en route, in the car, Mike Howard or Charley Kunkel said that Lee had been shot today.

At first he said that it wasn't serious—perhaps just not to frighten me. I was told that he had been taken to a hospital, and then I was told that he had been seriously wounded.

Then they had to telephone somewhere. They stopped at the house of the chief of police, Curry. From there, I telephone Ruth to tell her that I wanted to take several things which I needed with me and asked her to prepare them. And that there was a wallet with money and Lee's ring.

Soon after that—Robert was no longer with me, but Gregory was there, and the mother, and the Secret Service agents. They said that Lee had died.

After that, we went to the Motel Inn, the Six Flags Inn, where I stayed for several days—perhaps two weeks—I don't know.

Mr. Rankin. Do you recall what time of the day you heard that your husband had been shot?

Mrs. Oswald. No, not at two o'clock—earlier. Lee was shot at 11 o'clock. It was probably close to 12 o'clock. He died at one.

The Chairman. The Commission will be in order. Do you feel refreshed now, Mrs. Oswald, ready to proceed?

Mr. Rankin. Mrs. Oswald, I asked you if you asked your husband about his efforts to escape, why he did that. I will ask you now whether in light of what you said about his seeking notoriety in connection with the assassination, in your opinion how you explain his efforts to escape, which would presumably not give him that notoriety.

Mrs. Oswald. When he did that, he probably did it with the intention of becoming notorious. But after that, it is probably a normal reaction of a man to try and escape.

Mr. Rankin. You will recall that in the interviews, after the assassination, you first said that you thought your husband didn't do it, do you?

Mr. Rankin. Recently you said that you thought your husband did kill President Kennedy.

Mr. Rankin. Can you give us or the Commission an idea generally about when you came to this latter conclusion, that he did kill President Kennedy?

Mrs. Oswald. Perhaps a week after it all happened, perhaps a little more. The more facts came out, the more convinced I was.

Mr. Rankin. You have stated in some of your interviews that your husband would get on his knees and cry and say that he was lost. Do you recall when this happened?

Mr. Rankin. You don't know whether there was some occasion or some happening that caused it?

Mr. Rankin. Did your mother-in-law ever indicate that she had some particular evidence, either oral or documentary, that would decide this case?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, she always said that she has a pile of papers and many acquaintances.

Mr. Rankin. Did you ever ask her to tell you what it was that would be so decisive about the case?

Mrs. Oswald. I would have liked to ask her, but I didn't speak any English. And then I didn't believe her. What documents could she have when she had not seen Lee for one year, and she didn't even know we lived in New Orleans?

But I think that it is only she who considers that she has something that might reveal, uncover this.

Mr. Rankin. Has there been any time that you wanted to see your mother-in-law that you have been prevented from doing so?

Mr. Rankin. Mrs. Oswald, I am going to ask you about differences between you and your mother-in-law, not for the purpose of embarrassing you in any way, but since we are going to ask her to testify it might be helpful to the Commission to know that background.

Mrs. Oswald. I am sorry that you will devote your time to questioning her, because you will only be tired and very sick after talking to her. I am very much ashamed to have this kind of relationship to my mother-in-law. I would like to be closer to her and to be on better terms with her. But when you get to know her, you will understand why. I don't think that she can help you.

Mr. Rankin. Mrs. Oswald, can you describe for the Commission your differences so the Commission will be able to evaluate those differences?

Mrs. Oswald. Well, she asserts, for example, that I don't know anything, that I am being forced to say that Lee is guilty in everything, that she knows more.

I would like to tell her that, but it is impossible to tell her that, because she would scratch my eyes out.

Mr. Rankin. Are there any other differences between you and your mother-in-law that you have not described?

Mr. Rankin. Do you know of any time that your husband had money in excess of what he obtained from the jobs he was working on?

83 Mr. Rankin. He had his unemployment insurance when he was out of work. Is that right?

Mr. Rankin. Now, beyond those amounts, do you know of any sum of money that he had from any source?

Mr. Rankin. Do you know whether he was ever acting as an undercover agent for the FBI.

Mr. Rankin. Do you know whether or not he was acting as an agent for the CIA at any time?

Mr. Rankin. Before the murder of your husband by Jack Ruby, had you ever known of him?

Mrs. Oswald. He was not acquainted with him. Lee did not frequent nightclubs, as the papers said.

Mrs. Oswald. He was always with me. He doesn't like other women. He didn't drink. Why should he then go?

Mrs. Oswald. I don't know, but it seems to me that he was a sick person at that time, perhaps. At least when I see his picture in the paper now, it is an abnormal face.

Mr. Rankin. He never at any time said anything about Jack Ruby that you can recall?

Mrs. Oswald. No, never. I heard that name for the first time after he killed Lee.

Mrs. Oswald. Yes. This is in connection with why I left the room. I will tell you why I left the room.

I consulted with my attorney, whether I should bring this up. This is not a secret. The thing is that I have written a letter, even though I have not mailed it yet, to the attorney—to the prosecuting attorney who will prosecute Jack Ruby. I wrote in that letter that even—that if Jack Ruby killed my husband, and I felt that I have a right as the widow of the man he killed to say that, that if he killed him he should be punished for it. But that in accordance with the laws here, the capital punishment, the death penalty is imposed for such a crime, and that I do not want him to be subjected to that kind of a penalty. I do not want another human life to be taken. And I don't want it to be believed because of this letter that I had been acquainted with Ruby, and that I wanted to protect him.

84 It is simply that it is pity to—I feel sorry for another human life. Because this will not return—bring back to life Kennedy or the others who were killed. But they have their laws, and, of course, I do not have the right to change them. That is only my opinion, and perhaps they will pay some attention to it.

Mr. Rankin. Did you know where it was located before your husband was killed by Jack Ruby?

Mr. Rankin. Can you tell us whether your husband was right handed or left handed?

His brother writes with his left hand and so does—his brother and mother both write with their left hand.

And since I mentioned Jack Ruby, the mother and Robert want Ruby to be subjected to a death penalty. And in that we differ.

Mr. Rankin. Have they told you the reason why they wanted the death penalty imposed?

Mr. Rankin. Is there anything more about the assassination of President Kennedy that you know that you have not told the Commission?

Mr. Rankin. Is there anything that your husband ever told you about proposing to assassinate President Kennedy that you haven't told the Commission?

Mr. Rankin. Now, Mrs. Oswald, we will turn to some period in Russia, and ask you about that for a little while.

Mrs. Oswald. I was born on July 17, 1941, in Severo Dvinsk, in the Arkhangelskaya Region.

Mrs. Oswald. My mother was Clogia Vasilyevna Proosakova. She was a laboratory assistant.

Mrs. Oswald. With my stepfather, with my mother, and sometimes with my grandmother—grandmother on my mother's side.

Mr. Rankin. Did you live with your grandparents before you went back to live with your mother and your stepfather?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, I lived with my grandmother until I was approximately five years old.

Mr. Rankin. And then you moved to live with your mother and your stepfather, did you?

Mrs. Oswald. After the war, we lived in Moldavia for some time. After the war it was easier to live there, better to live there. And then we returned to Leningrad where we lived with my stepfather's mother—also with my half brother and half sister.

Mr. Rankin. Are they—I mean in comparison with your age. Were they three or four years older than you?

Mrs. Oswald. My brother is 5 years younger than I am. My sister is probably 9 years younger than I am. About four years between brother and sister.

Mr. Rankin. Do you know whether your stepfather was a member of the Communist Party?

Mrs. Oswald. No. After my mother's death, I continued to live with my stepfather, and later went to live in Minsk, with my uncle—my mother's brother.

Mrs. Oswald. That is in Moldavia, where we lived. That is after the war. It was a very good life there. They still had some kulaks, a lot of food, and we lived very well.

After the war, people lived there pretty well, but they were dekulakized subsequently.

By the way, I don't understand all of that, because these people worked with their own hands all their lives. I was very sorry when I heard that everything had been taken away from them and they had been sent somewhere to Siberia where after living in the south it would be very cold.

Mr. Rankin. What was your relationship with your half brother? Did you get along with him?

Mrs. Oswald. At first I went to school in Moldavia, and later in Leningrad, in a girl's school and then after finishing school I studied in a pharmaceutical institute—pharmaceutical school, rather than institute.

Mr. Rankin. Did you go through high school before you went to the pharmaceutical school?

Mrs. Oswald. Dmitry Rossovsky. I remember the director of the school, Nadelman Matvey Akimovich. It is hard to remember now. I have already forgotten. I have had good teachers. They treated me very well, they helped me after my mother died. Knowing my difficult nature, they approached me very pedagogically. But now I would have changed that nature.

Mrs. Oswald. I was capable but lazy. I never spent much time studying. You know, everything came to me very easily. Sometimes my ability saved me. My language, you know—I talk a lot, and get a good grade.

Mrs. Oswald. Yes. The money which I received on the pension was not enough, and therefore I had to work as well as study.

Mrs. Oswald. At first I worked in a school cafeteria, school lunchroom. This was good for me, because I also got enough to eat that way.

And then I felt the work was not for me, that it was too restricted, and then I worked in a pharmacy. Then when I graduated I worked in a pharmacy as a full-fledged pharmacist—as a pharmacist's assistant.

Mrs. Oswald. I think I received 36 per month—this is new rubles—at that time it was still 360 old rubles. But I could eat there three times a day. And then this was a lunchroom that was part of a large restaurant where everyone liked me and I always was treated to all sorts of tidbits and candy. I remember they had some busboys there who always saved something for me.

Mrs. Oswald. I was assigned to work in Leningrad, but my stepfather didn't want me to remain with him because he thought perhaps he would marry again, and, therefore, I left.

I can't work with it. The government seal is missing. Who will give me a new diploma?

Mr. Rankin. Mrs. Oswald, I want to explain to you—the Commission hasn't done anything to your diploma. We are informed that——

Mr. Rankin. The process was trying to determine fingerprints. It wasn't our action.

Mrs. Oswald. There must be many fingerprints on there. All of my teachers and everybody that ever looked at it. I am sorry—it is a pity for my diploma.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 20, and received in evidence.)

87 Mr. Rankin. Do you know why on Exhibit 20 there is no date of admission to the school?

Mrs. Oswald. There is no entrance date on it, but it does show the date of issue and the date of graduation.

Mr. Krimer. I might mention the place here is for the year only, not for a full date.

Mr. Rankin. In this job that you obtained after you left the school, what were your duties?

Mrs. Oswald. I worked in a hospital pharmacy. I prepared prescriptions. After the rounds every day, the doctors prescribed prescriptions, and the nurses of each department of the hospital enter that in a book, and turn it over to the pharmacy for preparation, where we again transcribed it from the nurses' book as a prescription and prepared it.

Mr. Rankin. Were you assigned to a particular job or did you go out and get the job? How was that arranged?

Mrs. Oswald. Generally upon graduation there is an assignment. I was sent to work to a drug warehouse in Leningrad. But this work was not very interesting, because everything was in packages. It is more of a warehousing job. And, therefore, if I had wanted to change I could have changed to any pharmacy. This assignment is only performed in order to guarantee that the graduate has a job. But the graduate can go to work somewhere else.

Mrs. Oswald. I was there for three days, which is a probationary period, intended to have the employee familiarize himself with his duties. I didn't like that work, and I went to Minsk, and worked there. I worked there in my own specialty with pleasure. But the reference which I received after I was going to the United States was not very good, because they were very dissatisfied with the fact that I was going to the United States. They could not understand how could it be that a good worker could leave.

Mr. Rankin. Could you have selected other places that you wished to go to and work?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, but the registration is very difficult. In Russia you cannot settle in a large city if you are not registered.

Mrs. Oswald. If I lived in Leningrad, I had the right to work there. But if someone would come there from a village he would not have the right to work, because he was not registered and he would not be permitted to. But to move from a larger city to a smaller one, then they may register, such as Minsk.

Mr. Rankin. By register, do you mean that if you want to go to a place like Leningrad, you had to be recorded some way in the city?

Mr. Rankin. And if you were not registered, they would not give you a job, is that what you mean?

No, you would not get a job. There are people who want to come to Leningrad. The housing problem has not been solved.

Mr. Rankin. Can you tell us how you get registered if you would like to be registered in Leningrad from some other point?

Mrs. Oswald. First you must have relatives who might have some spare living88 space for a person. Sometimes people who have money buy that. You know money does a great deal everywhere.

Mr. Rankin. And then after you have shown that you have a place to live, do they register you as a matter of course, or do you have to have something else?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, of course. But if I had spent one year not living in Leningrad, and were to return, I would not be registered.

Mr. Rankin. But since you were registered there, you could have found a position in some pharmacy or pharmaceutical work there, could you?

Mr. Rankin. Then, can you tell us how you decided to go to Minsk instead of staying in Leningrad?

Mrs. Oswald. I was very sorry to leave Leningrad, but there were family circumstances.

Mr. Rankin. So it is because you liked to leave your stepfather's home that you sought some other city in which to work?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes. I had no other place to live in Leningrad, and I did not have enough money to pay for an apartment.

Mr. Rankin. Could you have gotten a job in Leningrad if you stayed there that would pay you so you could have an apartment?

Mrs. Oswald. Pharmaceutical workers received comparatively little, which is quite undeserved, because they have to study so long, and it is responsible work. Teachers and doctors also receive very little.

Mr. Rankin. Did you conclude that you could not get a job that would pay you enough to live in your own apartment in Leningrad, then?

Mrs. Oswald. If I had an apartment in Leningrad. I would have had to work overtime hours in order to be able to pay for it, because the normal workday is only 6½ hours, because they consider that to be hazardous work.

Mr. Rankin. Did you have friends that you went out with in the evening, pleasant times?

Mr. Rankin. So that except for the problem of your stepfather, you enjoyed it there?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes. After working in Minsk for one year I received a vacation and went to a rest home near Leningrad.

Mrs. Oswald. Three weeks. Three weeks in the rest home, and one week I spent in Leningrad with some friends.

Mr. Rankin. Did you have to ask anyone in Leningrad in order to be able to leave there to go to Minsk, or you just go to Minsk and ask the people there to register you?

Mr. Rankin. When you said this same pay was paid all over, did you mean to say that you got the same amount regardless of whether you were in a big city or a small city?

Mrs. Oswald. This is the pharmacists rate everywhere. Unless you work in a specialized sort of an institution, such as a military hospital—there the pay is higher.

Mr. Rankin. Did you supervise the preparation of the prescriptions, or did you just put them up yourself?

Mrs. Oswald. I was in charge of myself. If I was working at a table, I was responsible for it.

Of course every institution is in charge of a supervisor who does not prepare medications—he is only an administrator.

Mrs. Oswald. Six days. Except if a holiday falls upon a weekday. Then I didn't work.

Mr. Rankin. Were these prescriptions prepared only for patients in the hospital?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes. Sometimes we prepared something for ourselves or for friends, or somebody would ask us.

Mrs. Oswald. No. They had—they were well provided for, and my uncle wanted that I spend the money on myself.

Mrs. Oswald. He is an engineer. He is a graduate of a forestry institute. Technical institute.

Mr. Rankin. Were you supporting yourself during this period except for the fact you didn't pay anything for your room and board?

Mrs. Oswald. No. I would receive my pay and I would spend everything in one day—three days tops.

Mrs. Oswald. First all the necessary things which I had to buy—shoes, an overcoat for winter. It is cold there, and, therefore, you have to wear warm clothes.

Mrs. Oswald. First I was a member of the Trade Union. Then I joined the Comsomol, but I was discharged after one year.

Mrs. Oswald. I paid my membership dues regularly, and at first they didn't90 know who I was or what I was, but after they found out that I had married an American and was getting ready to go to the United States, I was discharged from the Comsomol. They said that I had anti-Soviet views, even though I had no anti-Soviet views of any kind.

Mr. Rankin. Do you think that they thought you had anti-Soviet views because you married an American?

Mrs. Oswald. They never gave that as a direct reason, because the Soviet Government was not against marrying an American. But every small official wants to keep his place, and he is afraid of any troubles. I think it was sort of insurance.

Mr. Rankin. Was there any kind of a hearing about your being let out of the Comsomol?

Mrs. Oswald. I didn't go there, and they discharged me without me—I was very glad. There was even a reporter there from Comsomol paper, Comsomol Pravda, I think. He tried to shame me quite strongly—for what, I don't know. And he said that he would write about this in the paper, and I told him "Go ahead and write."

Mr. Rankin. After you came to the United States, did you correspond with some of these friends?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, but these were not the same friends. They were generally some girl friends before I was married and some friends we made later.

Mr. Rankin. What did that social life consist of? Did you go to parties or to the opera or theater, or what?

Mrs. Oswald. Sometimes we met at the home of some friends. Of course we went to the opera, to the theater, to concerts, to the circus. To a restaurant.

Mrs. Oswald. The first time when I went to a dance, to a party. And there I met Lee.

Mr. Rankin. What kind of a place is that? Is that where there are public meetings?

Mrs. Oswald. Sometimes they do have meetings there. Sometimes it is also rented by some institutes who do not have their own halls for parties.

91 Mrs. Oswald. I had gone there with my friends from the medical institute, and one of them introduced me to Lee.

Mrs. Oswald. Everyone there called him Alec, at his place of work, because Lee is an unusual, cumbersome name. For Russians it was easier—this was easier.

Mr. Rankin. Is Alec a name close to Lee, as far as the Russian language is concerned?

Mr. Rankin. Did you know that Lee Oswald was an American when you first met him?

Mrs. Oswald. I found that out at the end of that party, towards the end of that party, when I was first introduced to him, I didn't know that.

Mrs. Oswald. It was more interesting, of course. You don't meet Americans very often.

Mrs. Oswald. After the first meeting he asked me where he could meet me again. I said that perhaps some day I will come back here again, to the Palace. About a week later I came there again with my girl friend, and he was there.

Mrs. Oswald. I had arranged to meet with him again. I had already given him a telephone number. But he went to a hospital and he called me from there. We had arranged to meet on a Friday, and he called from the hospital and said he couldn't because he was in the hospital and I should come there, if I could.

Mrs. Oswald. He was near the ear, nose and throat section and it seems that he had something wrong with his ears and also the glands or polyps.

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, quite frequently, because I felt sorry for him being there alone.

Mrs. Oswald. When I asked him about it, he became very angry and asked me never to ask about that again.

Mr. Rankin. During the time Lee Oswald was courting you, did he talk about America at all?

Mrs. Oswald. At that time, of course, he was homesick, and perhaps he was sorry for having come to Russia. He said many good things. He said that his home was warmer and that people lived better.

Mrs. Oswald. It is strange to reconcile this. When he was there he was saying good things about America.

92 Mr. Rankin. Before you were married, did you find out anything about his plans to return to America?

Mr. Rankin. Did you learn anything before you were married about the fact that there might be some doubt whether he could return to the United States?

Mrs. Oswald. Once before we were married we had a talk and I asked him whether he could return to the United States if he wanted to, and he said no, he could not.

Mrs. Oswald. No. At that time, he didn't. He said that when he had arrived, he had thrown his passport on a table and said that he would not return any more to the United States. He thought that they would not forgive him such an act.

Mr. Rankin. Before you were married, did you ever say to him you would like to go to the United States?

Mrs. Oswald. I don't know. First, the fact that he was—he didn't look like others. You could see he was an American. He was very neat, very polite, not the way he was here, not as you know him here. And it seemed that he would be a good family man. And he was good.

Mr. Rankin. Did you talk about many things when you were together, when he was courting you?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes. By the way, this was the same apartment where I had dreamed to live. I didn't know about it yet. It had a very beautiful balcony, terrace. I would look at that building sometimes and say it would be good to visit in that building, visit someone there, but I never thought that I would wind up living there.

Mrs. Oswald. We had a small room—one room, kitchen, foyer, and bathroom. A large terrace, balcony.

Mrs. Oswald. For two it was quite sufficient. Seven and a half rubles per month.

Mrs. Oswald. No, in that city they have good apartments because the houses are new. That is, on a Russian scale, of course. You cannot compare it to private houses people live in here.

Mrs. Oswald. Oh, no. In Russia this is a problem. In Russia it is difficult to have an automobile.

Mrs. Oswald. The programs are not always interesting, and you can get into a stupor just watching television. It is better to go to the movies.

Mrs. Oswald. As an ordinary laborer—metal worker. From that point of view, he was nothing special. I had a greater choice in the sense that many of my friends were engineers and doctors. But that is not the main thing.

93 Mrs. Oswald. The house in which we lived belonged to the factory in which Lee worked. But, of course, no one had a separate apartment for only two persons. I think that Lee had been given better living conditions, better than others, because he was an American. If Lee had been Russian, and we would have had two children, we could not have obtained a larger apartment. But since he was an American, we would have obtained the larger one. It seems to me that in Russia they treat foreigners better than they should. It would be better if they treated Russians better. Not all foreigners are better than the Russians.

Mrs. Oswald. First of all, he was being ordered around by someone. He didn't like that.

Mr. Rankin. Did he say anything about the Russian system, whether he liked it or not?

Mrs. Oswald. He didn't like Russian Communists. He said that they joined the party not because of the ideas, but in order to obtain better living conditions and to get the benefit of them.

Mr. Rankin. Did it appear to you that he had become disenchanted with the Soviet system?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes. He said he had read a great deal about Russia, he was interested in seeing the country, which was the first in the Socialist camp about which much had been said, and he wanted to see it with his own eyes. And, therefore, he wanted to be not merely a tourist, who is being shown only the things that are good, but he wanted to live among the masses and see.

Thursday, February 6, 1964
TESTIMONY OF MRS. LEE HARVEY OSWALD RESUMED

The President's Commission met at 10 a.m. on February 6, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C.

Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Senator John Sherman Cooper, Representative Hale Boggs, Representative Gerald R. Ford, and Allen W. Dulles, members.

Also present were J. Lee Rankin, general counsel; Melvin Aron Eisenberg, assistant counsel; Norman Redlich, assistant counsel; William D. Krimer, and Leon I. Gopadze, interpreters; and John M. Thorne, attorney for Mrs. Lee Harvey Oswald.

The Chairman. The Commission will be in order. We will proceed again. Mr. Rankin?

Mr. Rankin. Mrs. Oswald, if I may return a moment with you to the time that you told us about your husband practicing with the rifle at Love Field. As I recall your testimony, you said that he told you that he had taken the rifle and practiced with it there, is that right?

Mr. Rankin. And by practicing with it, did you mean that he fired the rifle there, as you understood it?

Mrs. Oswald. I don't know what he did with it there. He probably fired it. But I didn't see him.

Mr. Rankin. And then you said that you had seen him cleaning it after he came back, is that right?

Mr. Rankin. Now, do you recall your husband having any ammunition around the house at any time?

Mr. Rankin. Do you know whether that was rifle ammunition or rifle and pistol ammunition?

Mrs. Oswald. I think it was for the rifle. Perhaps he had some pistol ammunition there, but I would not know the difference.

Mr. Rankin. Could you give us a little description of how you indicated the box? Was it 2 or 3 inches wide?

Mr. Rankin. Now, do you recall that you said to your husband at any time that he was just studying Marxism so he could get attention?

Mr. Rankin. In order to cause him not to be so involved in some of these ideas, did you laugh at some of his ideas that he told you about, and make fun of him?

Mr. Rankin. And did he ask you at one time, or sometimes, not to make fun of his ideas?

Mr. Rankin. Now, returning to the period in Russia, while your husband was courting you, did you talk to him, he talk to you, about his childhood?

Mrs. Oswald. No, not very much. Only in connection with photographs, where he was a boy in New York, in the zoo. Then in the Army—there is a snapshot taken right after he joined the Army.

Mrs. Oswald. He said it was hard for him during his childhood, when he was a boy, because there was a great age difference between him and Robert, and Robert was in some sort of a private school. He also wanted to have a chance to study, but his mother was working, and he couldn't get into a private school, and he was very sorry about it.

Mr. Rankin. In talking about that, did he indicate a feeling that he had not had as good an opportunity as his brother Robert?

Mr. Rankin. When he talked about his service in the Marines, did he tell you much about what he did?

Mrs. Oswald. He didn't talk much about it, because there wasn't very much there of interest to me. But he was satisfied.

Mr. Rankin. Did he indicate that he was unhappy about his service with the Marines?

Mrs. Oswald. No, he had good memories of his service in the Army. He said that the food was good and that sometimes evenings he had a chance to go out.

Mrs. Oswald. This was before we were married. I had once asked Lee whether95 he had a mother, and he said he had no mother. I started to question him as to what had happened, what happened to her, and he said that I should not question him about it.

After we were married, he told me that he had not told me the truth, that he did have a mother, but that he didn't love her very much.

Mr. Rankin. Do you recall anything more he said about his brother Robert at that time?

Mrs. Oswald. He said that he had a good wife, that he had succeeded fairly well in life, that he was smart and capable.

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, he loved Robert. He said that when Robert married Vada that his mother had been against the marriage and that she had made a scene, and this was one of the reasons he didn't like his mother.

Mr. Rankin. Did he say anything about his half brother, by the name of Pic—I guess the last name was Pic—Robert Pic?

Mrs. Oswald. He said that he had a half brother by the name of Pic from his mother's first marriage, but he didn't enlarge upon the subject. It is only that I knew he had a half brother by that name.

He said that at one time they lived with this John Pic and his wife, but that his wife and the mother frequently had arguments, quarrels. He said it was hard for him to witness these scenes, it was unpleasant.

Mr. Rankin. Did you regard your husband's wage or salary at Minsk as high for the work he was doing?

Mrs. Oswald. Not in a church, of course. But in the institution called Zags, where we were registered.

Mrs. Oswald. No one besides my girlfriends and some acquaintances. My uncle and aunt were busy preparing the house, and they were not there for that reason.

Mr. Rankin. After you were married did you go to live in your husband's apartment there?

Mr. Rankin. How did you and your husband get along during the period that you were in Minsk, after you were married?

Mr. Rankin. I hand you Exhibit 21 and ask you if that is the trade union booklet that you had there.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 21 and received in evidence.)

Mr. Rankin. We didn't notice any notation of dues payments in this booklet, Exhibit 21. Do you know why that was?

Mr. Rankin. That is for the period between 1956 and 1959, they don't seem to be in there.

Mr. Rankin. But you made the payments—you just didn't put the stamps in, is that right?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes. Simply because this is not important. I got the stamps, but the stubs remained with the person to whom I made the payment.

Mr. Rankin. We noted that the book shows a birth date of 1940 rather than 1941. Do you know how that happened?

Mrs. Oswald. The girl who prepared this booklet thought that I was older and put down 1940 instead of 1941.

Mr. Rankin. The booklet doesn't seem to show any registration in Minsk. Do you know why that would occur?

Mr. Rankin. Is it the practice to record a registration in a city that you move to, or isn't that a practice that is followed?

Mr. Rankin. Did your husband engage in any Communist Party activities while he was in the Soviet Union?

Mrs. Oswald. I think that he was also a member of a trade union, as everybody who works belongs to a trade union. Then he had a card from a hunting club, but he never visited it. He joined the club, apparently.

Mrs. Oswald. If he marked it down in his notebook that he went hunting for squirrels, he never did. Generally they wanted to kill a squirrel when we went there, or some sort of a bird, in order to boast about it, but they didn't.

Mr. Rankin. Were there any times while he was in the Soviet Union after your marriage that you didn't know where he went?

Mr. Rankin. When did you first learn that he was planning to try to go back to the United States?

Mrs. Oswald. We didn't discuss it—we talked about it—because we didn't make any specific plans.

Mrs. Oswald. I said, "Well, if we will go, we will go. If we remain, it doesn't make any difference to me. If we go to China, I will also go."

Mr. Rankin. Did you and your husband make a trip to Moscow in connection with your plans to go to the United States?

Mr. Rankin. Did your husband make a trip to Moscow alone before that? About his passport?

97 Mrs. Oswald. He didn't go alone. He actually left a day early and the following morning I was to come there.

Mr. Rankin. I understood that he didn't get any permission to make this trip to Moscow away from Minsk. Do you know whether that is true?

Mrs. Oswald. I don't know about this. I know that he bought a ticket and he made the flight.

Mr. Rankin. According to the practice, then, would he be permitted to go to Moscow from Minsk without the permission of the authorities?

Mrs. Oswald. I don't know whether he had the right to go to Moscow. Perhaps he did, because he had a letter requesting him to visit the Embassy. But he could not go to another city without permission of the authorities.

Mr. Rankin. When the decision was made to come to the United States, did you discuss that with your family?

Mrs. Oswald. First when we made the decision, we didn't know what would come of it later, what would happen further. And Lee asked me not to talk about it for the time being.

Mrs. Oswald. Later when I went to visit the Embassy, my aunt found out about it, because they had telephoned from work, and she was offended because I had not told her about it. They were against our plan.

Mr. Rankin. Did you tell your friends about your plans after you were trying to arrange to go to the United States?

Mr. Rankin. Was there some opposition by people in the Soviet Union to your going to the United States?

Mrs. Oswald. Somewhat. You can't really call that opposition. There were difficult times.

Mrs. Oswald. First, the fact that I was excluded from the Komsomol. This was not a blow for me, but it was, of course, unpleasant. Then all kinds of meetings were arranged and members of the various organizations talked to me. My aunt and uncle would not talk to me for a long time.

Mr. Rankin. And that was all because you were planning to go to the United States?

Mr. Rankin. Were you hospitalized and received medical treatment because of all of these things that happened at that time, about your leaving?

Mr. Rankin. Did you have any nervous disorder in 1961 that you were hospitalized for?

Mrs. Oswald. I was nervous, but I didn't go to the hospital. I am nervous now, too.

If you have a record of the fact that I was in the hospital, yes, I was. But I was in the hospital only as a precaution because I was pregnant. I have a negative Rh factor, blood Rh factor, and if Lee had a positive they thought—they thought that he had positive—even though he doesn't. It turned out that we both had the same Rh factor.

Mr. Rankin. Did you receive a promotion about this time in the work you were doing?

Mrs. Oswald. No, no one gets promoted. You work for 10 years as an assistant. All the assistants were on the same level. There were no sub-managers, except for the manager who was in charge of the pharmacy.

Mr. Rankin. What I am asking is your becoming an assistant druggist. Was that something different?

Mrs. Oswald. At first I was—I have to call it—an analyst. My job was to check prescriptions that had been prepared. There was no vacancy for an assistant, pharmacy assistant at first. But then I liked the work of a pharmacist's assistant better, and I changed to that.

98 Mr. Rankin. I will hand you Exhibit 22 and ask you if that is a book that shows that you were promoted or became an assistant druggist.

These are simply different types of work. But one is not any higher than the other—not because one is a type of management and the other is not. If someone prepared a prescription and I checked it, that was no different from the other work. There is a difference, of course, but not in the sense of a grade of service.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 22, and received in evidence.)

Mr. Rankin. Mr. Chairman, I ask leave at this time to substitute photostatic copies of any documentary evidence offered, and photographs of any physical evidence, with the understanding that the originals will be held subject to the further order of the Commission.

Mr. Rankin. Were you aware of your husband's concern about being prosecuted with regard to his returning to the United States?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, he told me about it. He told me about it, that perhaps he might even be arrested.

Mr. Rankin. Was he fearful of prosecution by the Soviet Union or by the United States?

Mr. Rankin. Do you recall any time that the Soviet authorities visited your husband while you were trying to go to the United States?

Mrs. Oswald. My mother's sister lives there, and she had invited me to come there for a rest because I was on vacation.

Mr. Rankin. Was there any reason why you took this vacation alone and not with your husband?

Mrs. Oswald. He was working at that time. He didn't have a vacation. He wanted to go with me, but he could not.

Mr. Rankin. There was some correspondence with the Embassy about your husband returning alone. Did you ever discuss that?

Mrs. Oswald. He said that if he did go alone, he feared that they would not permit me to leave, and that he would, therefore, wait for me.

Mrs. Oswald. At first, we stopped at the Hotel Ostamkino. And then we moved to the Hotel Berlin, formerly Savoy.

Mr. Rankin. Did you ever have any status in the armed forces of the Soviet Union?

99 Mrs. Oswald. No. But all medical workers, military, are obligated—all medical workers have a military obligation. In the event of a war, we would be in first place.

Mr. Rankin. Did you ever learn from your husband how he paid his expenses in Moscow for the period prior to the time you went to Minsk?

Mr. Rankin. I hand you Exhibit 23 and ask you if that is a booklet that records your military status.

Mrs. Oswald. I didn't work. It is simply that I was obligated. There is an indication there "non-Party member".

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 23, and received in evidence.)

Mr. Rankin. As I understand you, you did not serve in the armed forces of the Soviet Union, but because of your ability as a pharmacist, you were obligated, if the call was ever extended to you, is that right?

Mr. Rankin. Do you know any reason why your husband was permitted to stay in the Soviet Union when he first came there?

Mr. Rankin. Did your husband do any writing while he was in the Soviet Union that you know of?

Mr. Rankin. I hand you Exhibit 24 and ask you if that is a photostatic copy of the diary that you have just referred to.

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, that is Lee's handwriting. It is a pity that I don't understand it.

Mr. Rankin. Mrs. Oswald, that is all of the historic diary that we have received. There are some other materials that I will call your attention to, but apparently they are not part of that.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 24, and received in evidence.)

Mrs. Oswald. That is all that only has reference to this? Or is that everything that Lee had written?

Mr. Rankin. No, it is not all that he ever wrote, but it is all that apparently fits together as a part of the descriptive diary in regard to the time he was in Russia.

Do you know when your husband made Exhibit 24, as compared with doing it daily or from time to time—how it was made?

Mrs. Oswald. Sometimes two or three days in a row. Sometimes he would not write at all. In accordance with the way he felt about it.

The Chairman. Mrs. Oswald, you said a few moments ago it was a pity that you could not read this. Would you like to have the interpreter read it to you later, so you will know what is in it?

Mr. Rankin. Mr. Chairman, I just heard Mr. Thorne ask if there was any reason why they could not have photocopies of the exhibits. I know no reason.

100 Mr. Rankin. Mrs. Oswald has raised the question about whether this was complete. And this was all that was given us, as Exhibit 24, but we are going to check back on it to determine whether there was anything that may have been overlooked by the Bureau when they gave it to us.

Mrs. Oswald, your husband apparently made another diary that he wrote on some paper of the Holland America Line. Are you familiar with that?

Mr. Rankin. I will hand you Exhibit 25 and ask you if you recall having seen that.

Mrs. Oswald. I know this paper, but I didn't know what was contained in it. I didn't know this was a diary.

Mr. Rankin. Possibly I misdescribed it, Mrs. Oswald. It may be more accurately described as a story of his experiences in the Soviet Union.

Mrs. Oswald. I don't know even when he wrote this, whether this was aboard the ship or after we came to the United States. I only know the paper itself and the handwriting.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 25, and received in evidence.)

Mr. Rankin. Do you recall how much money you and your husband had in savings when you left Moscow for the United States?

Mrs. Oswald. I don't know, because Lee did not tell me how much money he had, because he knew that if he would tell me I would spend everything. But I think that we might have had somewhere about 300 rubles, or somewhat more, 350 perhaps.

Mrs. Oswald. I told you—from Moscow by train, through Poland, Germany, and Holland, and from Holland by boat to New York. From New York to Dallas by air.

Mr. Rankin. I think you told us by another ship from Holland. I wonder if it wasn't the SS Maasdam. Does that refresh your memory?

Mrs. Oswald. Perhaps. I probably am mixed up in the names because it is a strange name.

Mr. Rankin. Do you recall that you exchanged United States money for Polish money during this trip?

By the way, we got an awful lot for one dollar, they were so happy to get it. More than the official rate.

Mrs. Oswald. No. He doesn't drink beer, he doesn't drink anything, he doesn't like beer. I drank the beer. I don't like wine, by the way.

Mr. Rankin. Do you recall that you or your husband were contacted at any time in the Soviet Union by Soviet Intelligence people?

Mr. Rankin. During the time your husband was in the Soviet Union, did you observe any indication of mental disorder?

Mr. Rankin. How did he appear to get along with people that he knew in the Soviet Union?

Mrs. Oswald. Very well. At least, he had friends there. He didn't have any here.

Mr. Rankin. How much time did you spend in Amsterdam on the way to the United States?

Mrs. Oswald. We didn't stop at a hotel. We stopped at a place where they rent apartments. The address was given to us in the American Embassy.

Mrs. Oswald. I was somewhat upset because he was a little ashamed to walk around with me, because I wasn't dressed as well as the other girls. Basically, I stayed in my cabin while Lee went to the movies and they have different games there. I don't know what he did there.

Mr. Rankin. In Exhibit 25, the notations on the Holland American Line stationery, your husband apparently made some political observations. Did he discuss these with you while he was on the trip?

Mr. Rankin. Mrs. Oswald, can you tell us what your husband was reading in the Soviet Union after you were married, that you recall?

Mrs. Oswald. It seems to me something like Marxism, Leninism, also in the English language. He did not have any choice of English books for reading purposes.

Mr. Rankin. Did he go to any schools while he was in the Soviet Union that you know of?

Mrs. Oswald. The title of this document is shown here, "Information for those who are departing for abroad. Personal data—name, last name, date of birth, place of birth, height, color of eyes and hair, married or not, and purpose of the trip."

Mr. Rankin. Do you recall what members of your family are referred to there under that question?

Mrs. Oswald. It shows here "none." I think before this was filled out—this was before June's birth.

Mr. Rankin. That doesn't refer then to members of your family, like your uncles or aunts, or anything like that?

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 26, and received in evidence.)

Mr. Rankin. Now, I hand you Exhibit 27 and ask you if you can recall what that is.

Mrs. Oswald. This is a questionnaire which has to be filled out prior to departure for abroad.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 27, and received in evidence.)

Mr. Rankin. Do you recall what relatives you referred to when they asked for close relatives?

Mr. Rankin. Mrs. Oswald, can you tell us the handwriting on this exhibit, No. 27?

Mrs. Oswald. I don't know. Perhaps there were several drafts, I don't know whether this is from the Embassy or from some other source. These are drafts, because the original would have had to have my photograph. Lee and I were playing.

Mr. Rankin. Then, Mrs. Oswald, you think both Exhibit 27 and 28 are drafts, since neither one has your photograph on them?

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 28, and received in evidence.)

Mrs. Oswald. This is a residence permit, passport—a passport for abroad. This is a foreign passport for Russians who go abroad.

Mr. Rankin. Did you understand that you had six months in which to leave under that passport?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes. This all has to be filled out before you are allowed to go abroad.

Mrs. Oswald. I don't know who wrote that. It is not I. Officials who issue the passport.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 29, and received in evidence.)

Mr. Rankin. Do you know any reason why the passport was made valid until January 11, 1964?

Mrs. Oswald. Because the passport which I turned in and for which I received this one in exchange was valid until 1964.

Mrs. Oswald. All citizens of the U.S.S.R. 16 and over must have a passport. It would be good if everyone had a passport here. It would help the Government more.

Mr. Rankin. Mrs. Oswald, you have told us considerably about your husband's unhappiness with the United States and his idea that things would be much better in Cuba, if he could get there. Do you recall that?

Mr. Rankin. Do you recall what he said about what he didn't like about the United States?

Mrs. Oswald. I already said what he didn't like—that it was hard to get103 an education, that medical care is very expensive. About his political dissatisfaction, he didn't speak to me.

Mr. Rankin. Did he ever say anything against the leaders of the government here?

Mr. Rankin. Mr. Chairman, that is all we have now except the physical exhibits, and I think we could do that at 2 o'clock.

The Chairman. Mrs. Oswald, we are going to recess now until 2 o'clock. You must be quite tired by now. And this afternoon we are going to introduce some of the physical objects that are essential to make up our record.

Afternoon Session
TESTIMONY OF MRS. LEE HARVEY OSWALD RESUMED

Mr. Rankin. Mr. Chairman, I understand that Mrs. Oswald has examined a considerable volume of correspondence during the recess. In order to be helpful, she has identified it, and she is able to tell, through her counsel, by a number for each exhibit, who the letter was to or from as the case may be.

And, after I offer the exhibits, or as part of the offer, I will ask Mr. Thorne if he will tell the description of the recipient and the writer of the letter in the various cases. These exhibits are Exhibits 30 through 65, inclusive.

Exhibit No. 31 is a letter from her friend who studied with her, by the name of Ella Soboleva.

Exhibit No. 33 is another letter from Alexander Ziger. A friend of the family's.

Exhibit No. 34 is a letter concerning departure to the United States by Marina and her husband. She doesn't know who sent the letter or who received it. It is merely some material that she has.

Exhibit No. 35 is an envelope from a friend which contained a letter which is not shown.

Exhibit No. 36 is a letter from a former fiance's mother, the same one that sent the telegram, and Exhibit No. 30.

Exhibit No. 37 is a letter from Marina to Lee while she was in the hospital, during the birth of June Lee.

Exhibit No. 40 is a letter from Lee Harvey to Marina while she was in the hospital with June Lee, during the birth of the baby.

Exhibit No. 45 is a letter from Olga Dmovskaya, the same person who sent a letter in Exhibit No. 38.

Mr. Thorne. Yes, that is correct. It is the draft of an autobiography for the Russian Consulate.

Exhibit No. 52 is a letter received by Marina while she was in the hospital with June Lee.

Exhibit No. 55 is a letter from Lee Harvey Oswald to Marina while she was in Kharkov.

Exhibit No. 58 is a letter from Lee Harvey Oswald to Marina while she was in the hospital with June Lee.

Exhibit No. 63 is a letter from Lee Harvey Oswald to Marina while she was in the hospital, giving birth to June Lee.

Exhibit No. 64 is a letter from Lee Harvey Oswald—is a letter to Lee from Erick Titovetz.

Exhibit No. 65 is the second page of Exhibit No. 62. That completes the exhibits.

(The documents referred to were marked Commission Exhibit Nos. 30 through 65, inclusive, and received in evidence.)

Mr. Rankin. Mrs. Oswald, you remember I asked you about the diary that your husband kept. You said that he completed it in Russia before he came to this country, do you remember that?

Mr. Rankin. Do you know whether or not the entries that he made in that diary were made each day as the events occurred?

Mrs. Oswald. Not all events. What happened in Moscow I don't think that Lee wrote that in Moscow.

Mr. Rankin. And you think those entries were made close to the time that the events occurred?

Mr. Rankin. As I understand you, you think that the entries concerning the time he was in Moscow before he went to Minsk were entered some time while he was in Minsk, is that right?

Mr. Rankin. Do you know why your husband was sent to Minsk to work and live after he came to the Soviet Union, instead of some other city?

Mrs. Oswald. He was sent there because this is a young and developing city where there are many industrial enterprises which needed personnel. It is an old, a very old city. But after the war, it had been almost completely built anew, because everything has been destroyed. It was easier in the sense of living space in Minsk—it was easier to secure living space. Many immigrants are sent to Minsk. There are many immigrants there now.

Mrs. Oswald. Americans? No. But from South America, from Argentina, we knew many. Many Argentinians live there—comparatively many.

Mr. Rankin. Did your husband say much about the time he was in Moscow before he went to Minsk and what he did there?

Mrs. Oswald. He didn't tell me particularly much about it, but he said that he walked in Moscow a great deal, that he had visited museums, that he liked Moscow better than Minsk, and that he would have liked to live in Moscow.

Mr. Rankin. Did he say anything about having been on the radio or television at Moscow?

Mr. Rankin. Did he tell you anything about any ceremonies for him when he asked for Soviet citizenship?

Mr. Rankin. When he was not granted Soviet citizenship, did he say anything about the Soviet Government or his reaction towards their failure to give him citizenship?

Mrs. Oswald. When I read the diary, I concluded from the diary that Lee wanted to become a citizen of the Soviet Union and that he had been refused, but after we were married we talked on that subject and he said it was good that he had refused to accept citizenship. Therefore, I had always thought that Lee had been offered citizenship—but that he didn't want it.

Mrs. Oswald. The diary about which we talked here previously—in the preceding session.

Mrs. Oswald. I had never read it, because I didn't understand English. But when I was questioned by the FBI, they read me excerpts from that diary.

Mr. Rankin. When you and Lee Oswald decided to get married, was there a period of time you had to wait before it could be official?

Mr. Rankin. After it was known in Minsk that you were to marry this American, did any officials come to you and talk to you about the marriage?

Mr. Rankin. Mrs. Oswald, we have Exhibits 66 through 91 that we are going to ask your counsel to show to you, and after you have looked at them and are satisfied that you can identify them, then we will ask you to comment on them.

Mr. Thorne. These are all part of Exhibit 66. They are various miscellaneous pieces of writing involved in this particular exhibit.

Mrs. Oswald. It was not in June that I was in the hospital. He didn't know that I was in the hospital.

Mrs. Oswald. Because I was going to work when I began to feel ill, and I was taken to the hospital.

106 Mr. Rankin. And we have already discussed, or I have asked you about that time you were in the hospital.

Mr. Rankin. By twice, you mean this time you have described before you went to Kharkov and the other time when you had the baby?

Mr. Dulles. I wonder if these should not be marked in some way, because you won't be able to find out what they are in the future—A, B, C, D, or something of this kind.

Mr. Rankin. Mr. Redlich, will you mark those as 66-A, B, C, and D, or however they run?

Mr. Thorne, when you say the first one marked "A", will you make it clear what that is?

Mr. Thorne. The exhibit marked "A"—let me hasten to point out that all of these pieces of paper have a mark "159R". We are denoting individually these papers by starting with A, B, C, and so on.

"A" represents the first piece of paper that was identified earlier in this testimony by Mrs. Oswald, referring again specifically to Exhibit 66, which is composed of many such pieces of paper.

Now, so there is no confusion, let's state again that these are sub-exhibits, letters, and marked 159, from A through I, all part of Exhibit 66.

Mrs. Oswald. I would like to obtain these letters, to preserve them. I don't mean now.

The Chairman. She may see and have copies of any of the letters she desires connected with her testimony.

Mr. Thorne. Exhibit 68. Exhibit 68 is two postcards, and they probably need to be identified as A and B.

Mrs. Oswald. That is a letter from Lee from New Orleans to Irving—to the home of Mrs. Paine.

Mr. Thorne. This will be identified as Exhibit 68-B. Exhibit 69 is composed of two postcards. Exhibit 69-A——

Mrs. Oswald. This is from Lee, from New Orleans, addressed to me, when I lived with Ruth Paine.

Mrs. Oswald. From Pavel Golovachev, addressed to the address of Ruth Paine. And this is an envelope from Ruth Paine.

Mrs. Oswald. This is a reply to Lee's letter about the fact that he wanted to study at the University of Peoples Friendship, and he was refused.

Mr. Thorne. Exhibit 73 contains two pieces of paper. 73-A is identified as——

Mrs. Oswald. This is from the time that June was a little baby, a certificate of the fact that she was vaccinated for smallpox.

Mrs. Oswald. This is Lee's library card of the State Library. I think in Moscow—the State Library.

Mr. Thorne. Exhibit 76 contains three pages of writing, together with an envelope.

Mrs. Oswald. This was when Lee and I visited his brother in a city in Alabama, he is studying to be a clergyman. There we met a young man who was studying Russian, and he wrote me this letter.

Mr. Thorne. Exhibit 77 contains an envelope and two written pages—two separate pages of writing.

Mr. Thorne. Exhibit 78 contains an envelope and two handwritten pages of writing.

Mrs. Oswald. I was forced by the FBI to write an account of how much money I had received through them.

108 Mr. Thorne. This contains several pages—several sheets—three sheets which seem to be one continuous letter.

The Chairman. You have looked over all these, have you, Mr. Thorne, and your client has identified them?

(The documents referred to were marked Commission Exhibit Nos. 66 through 91, inclusive, and received in evidence.)

Mr. Rankin. Mrs. Oswald, we will show you photostatic copies of various writings of your husband. As you look at them, would you tell us what each one is, insofar as you recognize them, please?

Mrs. Oswald. Lee's handwriting. But I have never seen this. More correctly, I have seen it, but I have never read it.

Mr. Thorne. May I point out to the Commission, please, this is in English. This is handwritten in English and it is typewritten in English.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 92, and received in evidence.)

Mr. Rankin. I should like to inform the Commission that Exhibit 92 purports to be the book that Lee Oswald wrote about conditions in the Soviet Union.

Mr. Thorne. The next exhibit is Exhibit No. 93, many pages, handwritten, in English.

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, this is Lee's handwriting. These are all his papers. I don't know about them. Everything is in English. I don't know.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 93, and received in evidence.)

Mr. Rankin. I should like to advise the Commission that this Exhibit 93 purports to be a résumé of his Marine Corps experience, and some additional minor notes.

Mr. Thorne. Exhibit No. 94 is photocopies of many pages of handwriting, which is in English.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 94, and received in evidence.)

Mr. Rankin. Exhibit 94 consists of handwritten pages on which the book about Russia, Exhibit 92, was typewritten.

109 Mr. Thorne. Exhibit No. 95 is a photocopy of many pages of typewriting, typewritten words, which are in English.

Mr. Rankin. Mrs. Oswald, I will ask you, on Exhibit 95, can you identify the handwriting on that?

Mr. Rankin. And did you ever see the pages of that Exhibit 95 as a part of his papers and records?

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 95, and received in evidence.)

Mr. Thorne. Exhibit 96 is a photocopy of two pages that are handwritten and in English.

Mrs. Oswald. I also don't know what that is. For me, that is a dark forest, a heap of papers.

Mr. Rankin. With regard to Exhibit 95 that has been received in evidence, I should like to inform the Commission that that is also material concerning the book, regarding conditions in Russia.

Mrs. Oswald, will you tell us with regard to Exhibit 96—do you recognize the handwriting on those pages?

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 96, and received in evidence.)

Mr. Rankin. Exhibit 96 purports to be notes for a speech or article, on "The New Era."

Mr. Thorne. Exhibit 97 is a photocopy of several pages, both printed and in writing, handwriting.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 97, and received in evidence.)

Mr. Rankin. Exhibit 97 appears to be a critique on the Communist Party in the United States by Lee Oswald.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 98, and received in evidence.)

110 (The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 99, and received in evidence.)

Mr. Thorne. Exhibit No. 100 purports to be four pages, photocopy pages, of handwriting, in English.

Mrs. Oswald. Lee's handwriting. But what it is, I don't know. I am sorry, but I don't know what it is.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 100, and received in evidence.)

Mr. Rankin. I wish to inform the Commission that this purports to be answers to questionnaires, and shows two formats, one showing that he is loyal to the country and another that he is not so loyal.

Mr. Thorne. Exhibit 101 is a photocopy of one page which is printed and handwritten in English.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 101, and received in evidence.)

Mr. Rankin. This purports to be a portion of the diary and relates to his meeting at the Embassy on October 31, 1959.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 102, and received in evidence.)

Mr. Rankin. I wish to call the Commission's attention to the fact that Exhibit 102 purports to be a draft of memoranda, at least, for a speech.

Mr. Thorne. Exhibit 103 is two pages, two photocopy pages, of handwriting, in English.

Mrs. Oswald. From the address I see that it is a letter—it is Lee's letter, but to whom, I don't know.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 103, and received in evidence.)

Mr. Rankin. I wish to call the attention of the Commission to the fact that Exhibit 103 is a purported draft of the letter that Lee Oswald sent to the Embassy, the Soviet Embassy, which you will recall referred to the fact that his wife was asked by the FBI to defect—had such language in the latter part of it. This draft shows that in this earlier draft he used different language, and decided upon the language that he finally sent in the exhibit that is in the record earlier. The comparison is most illuminating.

Mrs. Oswald. This is my notebook, various addresses—when I was at the rest home, I simply noted down the addresses of some acquaintances.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 104, and received in evidence.)

Mr. Thorne. Exhibit 105 is the original of a notebook containing various writings in English and in Russian.

Mrs. Oswald. This is when Lee was getting ready to go to Russia, and he made a list of the things that he wanted to buy and take with him.

Mr. Rankin. In Exhibit 105, Mrs. Oswald, I will ask you if you noted that your husband had listed in that "Gun and case, Price 24 REC. 17."

Mrs. Oswald. I don't know what that is. Unfortunately, I cannot help. I don't know what this means.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 105, and received in evidence.)

Mr. Rankin. With regard to Exhibit 102, I should like to inform the Commission that as a part of this transcribed record, as soon as we can complete it, we will have photostatic copies of these various exhibits for you, along with photographs of the physical material. But I think you will want to examine some of it very closely.

I call your particular attention to this draft of a proposed speech. One of the items, No. 1, states, "Americans are apt to scoff at the idea that a military coup in the U.S. as so often happens in Latin American countries, could ever replace our government. But that is an idea that has grounds for consideration. Which military organization has the potentialities of exciting such action? Is it the Army? With its many conscripts, its unwieldy size, its score of bases scattered across the world? The case of General Walker shows that the Army at least is not fertile enough ground for a far-right regime to go a very long way, for the size, reasons of size, and disposition."

"Which service, then, can qualify to launch a coup in the U.S.A.? Small size, a permanent hard core of officers and few bases as necessary. Only one outfit fits that description, and the U.S. Marine Corps is a rightwing-infiltrated organization of dire potential consequences to the freedom of the United States. I agree with former President Truman when he said that 'The Marine Corps should be abolished.'"

Mrs. Oswald. I simply liked these verses. I did not have a book of poems. And I made a copy.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 106, and received in evidence.)

Mr. Thorne. Exhibit 107 contains a small piece of cardboard with some writing in Russian on it.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 107, and received in evidence.)

Mr. Thorne. Exhibit 108 is an original one sheet of paper, with handwriting in ink, in Russian, on one page.

112 (The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 108, and received in evidence.)

Mr. Thorne. Exhibit 109 is one sheet with handwriting in ink on both sides, an original.

Mrs. Oswald. This was simply my recollection of some song lyrics and the names of some songs that people had asked me.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 109, and received in evidence.)

Mr. Thorne. Exhibit 110 is a yellow legal sized sheet with handwriting in Russian which seems to be interpreted in English below it, together with a little stamp. I can explain the stamp. It says FBI Laboratory.

Mrs. Oswald. This is when George Bouhe was giving me lessons. I translated from Russian into English—not very successfully—my first lessons.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 110, and received in evidence.)

Mr. Rankin. When was it that George Bouhe was teaching you English and you wrote this out?

Mrs. Oswald. This was in July 1962. I don't remember when I arrived—in '62 or '61.

Mr. Rankin. Is the handwriting in Exhibit 110 in the Russian as well as the English in your handwriting?

Mrs. Oswald. No. The Russian is written by Bouhe, and the English is written by me.

Mr. Rankin. Did you make the translation from the Russian into the English by yourself?

Mr. Rankin. So you were taking a Russian-English dictionary and trying to convert the Russian words that he wrote out into English, is that right?

Mr. Rankin. Do you notice some of the letters are cut out of that book, Exhibit 111?

Mrs. Oswald. Probably Lee was working, but I never saw that. I don't know what he did that for.

Mrs. Oswald. No. I would have shown him if I had seen him doing that to my book.

Mr. Rankin. You know sometimes messages are made up by cutting out letters that way and putting them together to make words.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 111, and received in evidence.)

Mr. Thorne. Exhibit 112 is an apparent application—an applicant's driving record.

Mr. Thorne. May I clarify the exhibit? It is an application for a Texas driver's license. Standard form application.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 112, and received in evidence.)

Mrs. Oswald. It is quite possible that Lee prepared that, because Ruth Paine insisted on Lee's obtaining a license.

Mrs. Oswald. We had this book for quite some time. George Bouhe had given that to Lee if he at some time would try to learn how to drive.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 113, and received in evidence.)

Mr. Rankin. Do you remember having seen those binoculars, known as Exhibit 114, before?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes. We had binoculars in Russia because we liked to look through them at a park.

Mr. Rankin. Do you know whether your husband used them in connection with the Walker incident?

(The article referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 114, and received in evidence.)

Mr. Rankin. You mean when he was working on the Fair Play for Cuba, he used this?

(The article referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 115, and received in evidence.)

Mr. Rankin. How did he use that kit in Exhibit 115 in connection with his Fair Play for Cuba campaign?

Mrs. Oswald. He had leaflets for which he assembled letters and printed his address.

114 Mr. Rankin. Do you recall whether he stamped his name on the handbills, too?

Mr. Thorne. Exhibit 116 is a Spanish to English and English to Spanish dictionary.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 116, and received in evidence.)

Mr. Thorne. Exhibit 117 is one sheet of paper with, some penciled markings on it.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 117, and received in evidence.)

Mr. Thorne. Exhibit 118 is a clipping from a newspaper. There are some notations on it.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 118, and received in evidence.)

Mr. Rankin. I call attention to the members of the Commission that Exhibit 118 has a reference to the President, with regard to the income tax, and the position of the Administration as being favorable to business rather than to the small taxpayer in the approach to the income tax.

Mrs. Oswald. I can see that it is a key to a padlock, but I have never used such a key.

(The article referred to was marked as Commission Exhibit No. 119 for identification.)

Mr. Thorne. Exhibit 121 is a Russell Stover candy box filled with miscellaneous assortment—medicines of all kinds.

Mr. Rankin. Mrs. Oswald, can you help us in regard to that Exhibit 121? Are those your medicines or are those your husband's?

(The article referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 121 and received in evidence.)

115 Mr. Rankin. You are showing us pipe cleaners that you say your husband used to clean the rifle, as you remember it?

(The article referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 122, and received in evidence.)

(The article referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 123, and received in evidence.)

Mr. Thorne. Exhibit 124 is a hunting knife in a sheath, approximately a 4- or 5-inch blade.

(The article referred to was marked as Commission Exhibit No. 124 for identification.)

Mr. Thorne. Exhibit 125 is a file cabinet for presumably three by five or five by seven inch cards.

(The article referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 125, and received in evidence.)

Mr. Rankin. It is one of the bags that you described when you were telling about his bringing one back from Mexico City?

(The article referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 126, and received in evidence.)

Mr. Rankin. We cannot tell you that, Mrs. Oswald. We don't know which place it was taken from.

The Chairman. Do you need that? That is hers. She may want it. Do you think we need it?

(The article referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 127, and received in evidence.)

Mr. Thorne. Exhibit 128 is a Humble Oil and Refining Company courtesy map of the Dallas-Fort Worth area.

Mr. Rankin. I call your attention, Mrs. Oswald, to the markings in ink, in the area where the assassination took place.

Mrs. Oswald. This map Lee acquired after returning to Irving. Before that, he had another map.

Mrs. Oswald. No. I think that this was in his apartment, where he lived. Perhaps he used it there.

Mrs. Oswald. No, I have never seen him use this specific map. Possibly he marked this place, not because of what happened there, but because this was the place where he worked, I don't know. He had a habit to note down the addresses of all acquaintances where he worked.

Mr. Rankin. Can you tell whether the writing on the side of the map there is in your husband's handwriting?

(The document referred to was marked for identification as Commission Exhibit No. 128.)

Mr. Thorne. Exhibit 129 purports to be some type of an official document in Russian.

Mr. Rankin. Do you know why it was issued at that date, rather than presumably the one that was issued when you were born?

117 (The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 129, and received in evidence.)

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 130, and received in evidence.)

Mrs. Oswald. These documents were needed for regularizing all the documents in connection with the trip abroad.

Mr. Rankin. Do you know why the date was rewritten from July 14 to July 19 on them?

Mr. Rankin. You explain it, Mr. Krimer, and then ask her if you are explaining it correctly.

This states she was born on July 17, but that an entry was made in the register about that on August 14, 1961. This accounts for the change in the digit. And this was issued on July 19, 1941.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 131, and received in evidence.)

Mr. Thorne. 132 is a two-sheet, eight-page letter with an envelope. This is written in Russian.

Mrs. Oswald. The envelope is from Sobolev, and the letter is from Golovachev. I simply kept them together.

Mr. Rankin. There is a reference in the last full paragraph of that letter, Mrs. Oswald, where it said, "By the way, Marina, try to explain to Paul that the basic idea of Pagodzin's play 'A man with a rifle' is contained in words"—and then goes on. Do you know what was meant by that?

Mrs. Oswald. This is only that the word "rifle" scares you, but it is quite harmless. This is Peter Gregory, Paul. He is also studying Russian. And he had to make a report at the institute about Pagodzin's play "Man with a Rifle". This play is about the revolution in Russia, and there is a film. I helped him with it.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 132, and received in evidence.)

Mrs. Oswald. For me at first they appeared to be one and the same, at first glance. But they are different poses.

Mr. Rankin. And are those the pictures you took when you were out hanging up diapers, and your husband asked you to take the pictures of him?

(The documents referred to were marked Commission Exhibit No. 133, and received in evidence.)

Mr. Rankin. Do you recall whether these pictures in Exhibit 133 were taken before or after the Walker incident?

Mr. Thorne. Exhibit 134 is an enlargement of one of these pictures—what purports to be an enlargement.

Mr. Rankin. Mrs. Oswald, in Exhibit 133, in one of the pictures your husband has a newspaper, it appears.

In both he appears to have a newspaper. In one of them he has the newspaper in the right hand and in the other in the left hand. Do you know what newspaper that is?

Mrs. Oswald. It says there "Militant." But I don't know what kind of a paper that is—whether it is Communist, anti-Communist.

Mr. Rankin. Do you recall how much earlier than the Walker incident you took these photographs?

Mr. Rankin. Was the enlargement of one of those pictures, Exhibit 134, made by you, or by someone else?

Mrs. Oswald. No. I have been shown an enlargement, but I don't know whether this is the one I have been shown.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 134, and received in evidence.)

Mr. Thorne. Exhibit No. 136 purports to be a clipping from a newspaper. It is a clipping of an advertisement, a mail coupon.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 135, and received in evidence.)

Mr. Rankin. I call the Commission's attention to the fact that this is the coupon under which it appears the rifle was ordered, showing an enclosed $10 notation—"Check for $29.95, A. G. Hidell, age 28, post office box 2915, Dallas, Texas."

And it is marked, "One—quantity. Point 38 ST. W. 2 inch barrel, 29.95," and underlined is 29.95, and an arrow at that point.

Mr. Rankin. Is that the camera you used to take the pictures you have referred to?

Mrs. Oswald. I don't remember exactly whether it was an American camera or this.

(The article referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 136, and received in evidence.)

(The article referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 137 for identification.)

Mr. Thorne. Exhibit 138 is a flash attachment for some type of camera. It is an Ansco flash attachment.

(The article referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 138 for identification.)

Mr. Rankin. Do you know what happened to the American camera that you referred to?

(The article referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 139, and received in evidence.)

Mrs. Oswald. Yes. We didn't use this blanket as a cover. He used it for the rifle.

Mr. Rankin. And it was the blanket that you saw and thought was covering the rifle in the garage at the Paine's, is it?

Mr. Rankin. Did he use it as a cover for the rifle at other places where you lived?

(The article referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 140, and received in evidence.)

Mrs. Oswald. Yes. I would put that on the floor to make it softer—on a balcony, for example, when June was playing on it.

Mr. Rankin. Have you ever seen bullets or shells like that that your husband had?

Mr. Rankin. If that was the size for his gun, would that cause you to think it was the same?

(The article referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 141, and received in evidence.)

Mrs. Oswald. The FBI questioned me about this paper, but I don't know—I have never seen it.

Mr. Rankin. At one time it was kraft color, before they treated it to get fingerprints.

Mr. Rankin. That Exhibit 142 is more than just wrapping paper. It was apparently made up into a sack or bag.

Mr. Rankin. Did you ever see him make up a bag or sack or anything like that, to hold a rifle?

(The article referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 142, for identification.)

(The article referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 143, and received in evidence.)

Mr. Rankin. Is Exhibit 144 the same holster that is in those pictures that you took?

(The article referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 144, and received in evidence.)

Mr. Thorne. Exhibit 145 is a small cardboard box containing two bullets, .38 caliber.

Mr. Rankin. Do you recognize those as appearing to be the size of the bullets that your husband had for the pistol?

Mrs. Oswald. It is hard for me to tell, because I don't understand about this. I never looked at them, because I am afraid.

Mr. Rankin. But you have seen bullets like that, have you, in your husband's apartment or rooming house, or in the Neely apartment or at Mrs. Paine's?

On Neely Street, perhaps it is similar—New Orleans. It looks like it. If they fit Lee's pistol, then they must be the right ones.

(The article referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 145, and received in evidence.)

Mr. Rankin. Mrs. Oswald, would you step over with the interpreter to this desk and point out the different pieces of clothing as we ask you about it, please?

Mr. Rankin. Can you tell us whether any of this clothing set out on this desk belonged to Lee Oswald?

Mr. Rankin. We are advised it was when he was hurt, they cut into some of these.

Do you recall whether or not he was wearing Exhibit—the shirt that I point to now, the morning of the 22d of November—Exhibit 150?

Mr. Rankin. Do you recall which of the pants he was wearing on the morning of November 22, 1963?

Mrs. Oswald. I think the gray ones, but I am not sure, because it was dark in the room, and I paid no attention to what pants he put on.

Mr. Rankin. By the gray ones, you are referring to what I point to as Exhibit 157, is that right?

Mr. Rankin. Do you recall which one of the sweaters or jackets he was wearing on the morning of November 22, 1963?

Mrs. Oswald. The thing is that I saw Lee in the room, and I didn't see him getting dressed in the room. That is why it is difficult for me to say. But I told him to put on something warm on the way to work.

Mr. Rankin. Do you recall whether the jacket, Exhibit 163, is something that he put on in your presence at any time that day?

Mr. Rankin. Is it possible that Exhibit 163 was worn by him that morning without your knowing about it?

Mr. Rankin. Now, at the time you saw him at the Dallas jail, can you tell us what clothing of any that are on this desk he was wearing at that time?

Mrs. Oswald. None of these. He had on a white T-shirt. What trousers he was wearing, I could not tell, because I only saw him through a window.

Mr. Rankin. Do you recall any of these clothes that your husband was wearing when he came home Thursday night, November 21, 1963?

Mr. Thorne. I identify this photograph, which is marked Exhibit 164 as being a true photograph of the shirt displayed to Mrs. Oswald, and recognized by her as being a shirt that she gave to Lee Harvey Oswald.

(The articles referred to were marked Commission Exhibit Nos. 146 to 164, inclusive, and received in evidence.)

Mr. Rankin. Mrs. Oswald, do you remember any information or documents under your control or in your possession which would relate to or shed any light on the matters we have been examining which you have not presented here?

Mr. Rankin. Some of the Commissioners have a question or two, or a few questions. If you will permit them, they would like to address them to you.

Representative Boggs. Mrs. Oswald, this question has already been asked you, but I would like to ask it again.

I gather that you have reached the conclusion in your own mind that your husband killed President Kennedy.

123 Representative Boggs. During the weeks and months prior to the assassination—and I think this question has also been asked—did you ever at any time hear your late husband express any hostility towards President Kennedy?

Representative Boggs. What motive would you ascribe to your husband in killing President Kennedy?

Mrs. Oswald. As I saw the documents that were being read to me, I came to the conclusion that he wanted in any—by any means, good or bad, to get into history. But now that I have heard a part of the translation of some of the documents, I think that there was some political foundation to it, a foundation of which I am not aware.

Representative Boggs. By that, do you mean that your husband acted in concert with someone else?

Representative Boggs. You are convinced that his action was his action alone, that he was influenced by no one else?

Mrs. Oswald. He told me when we were in New Orleans that he was a Communist, but I didn't believe him, because I said, "What kind of a Communist are you if you don't like the Communists in Russia?"

Mrs. Oswald. He considered them to be on a higher level and more conscious than the Communists in Russia.

Representative Boggs. Did you consider your husband a normal man in the usual sense of the term?

Mrs. Oswald. He was always a normal man, but where it concerned his ideas, and he did not introduce me to his ideas, I did not consider him normal.

Representative Boggs. Maybe I used the wrong terminology. Did you consider him mentally sound?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes; he was smart and capable. Only he did not use his capabilities in the proper direction. He was not deprived of reason—he was not a man deprived of reason.

Mrs. Oswald. No one knows the truth, no one can read someone else's thoughts, as I could not read Lee's thoughts. But that is only my opinion.

Senator Cooper. Mrs. Oswald, some of the questions that I ask you you may have answered—because I have been out at times.

I believe you have stated that your husband at times expressed opposition to or dislike of the United States or of its political or economic system, is that correct?

Mrs. Oswald. As far as I know, he expressed more dissatisfaction with economic policy, because as to the political matters he did not enlighten me as to his political thoughts.

Senator Cooper. Did he ever suggest to you or to anyone in your presence that the economic system of the United States should be changed, and did he suggest any means for changing it?

Mrs. Oswald. He never proposed that, but from his conversations it followed that it would be necessary to change it. But he didn't propose any methods.

Senator Cooper. Did he ever say to you or anyone in your presence that the system might be changed if officials were changed or authorities of our country were changed?

Senator Cooper. Did he ever express to you any hostility towards any particular official of the United States?

Mrs. Oswald. I know that he didn't like Walker, but I don't know whether you could call him an official.

Senator Cooper. May I ask if you ever heard anyone express to him hostility towards President Kennedy?

Senator Cooper. You never heard him or anyone else express to your husband any hostility towards President Kennedy?

Mr. Dulles. Mr. Chief Justice, I only have one question. Mr. Rankin has kindly asked several questions I had during the course of this hearing, these hearings the last 3 days.

Apart from trying to achieve a place in history, can you think of any other motive or anything that your husband felt he would achieve by the act of assassinating the President? That he was trying to accomplish something?

Mrs. Oswald. It is hard for me to say what he wanted to accomplish, because I don't understand him.

Representative Ford. Mrs. Oswald after President Kennedy was assassinated, your husband was apprehended and later questioned by a number of authorities. In the questioning he denied that he kept a rifle at Mrs. Paine's home. He denied shooting President Kennedy. And he questioned the authenticity of the photographs that you took of him holding the rifle and the holster.

Now, despite these denials by your husband, you still believe Lee Oswald killed President Kennedy?

Representative Boggs. Mrs. Oswald, when you lived in New Orleans with your husband, and he was active in this alleged Cuban committee, did you attend any meetings of any committees—was anyone else present?

Representative Boggs. Were there any members of the committee other than your husband?

Mrs. Oswald. There was no one. There was no one. There was no organization in New Orleans. Only Lee was there.

Representative Boggs. One other question. Did he also dislike Russia when he was in Russia?

The Chairman. Well, Mrs. Oswald, you have been a very cooperative witness. You have helped the Commission. We are grateful to you for doing this. We realize that this has been a hard ordeal for you to go through.

The Chairman. We hope you know that the questions we have asked you have—none of them have been from curiosity or to embarrass you, but only to report to the world what the truth is.

Now, after you leave here, you may have a copy of everything you have testified to. You may read it, and if there is anything that you think was not correctly recorded, or anything you would like to add to it, you may do so.

The Chairman. Your lawyer may read it for you, and if he points out something to you that you think you should have changed, you may feel free to do that.

The Chairman. And if in the future we should like to ask you some more questions about something that develops through the investigation, would you be willing to come back and talk to us again?

The Chairman. We hope it won't be necessary to disturb you. But if it is, you would be willing to come, would you not?

Representative Ford. Mr. Chairman—I would just like to suggest that if Mrs. Oswald does wish to revise any of her testimony, that this be called to the attention of the Commission through her attorney, Mr. Thorne.

Now, Mr. Thorne, you have been very cooperative with the Commission. We appreciate that cooperation. We hope that if anything new should come to your attention that would be helpful to the Commission, you would feel free to communicate with us.

The Chairman. Yes. And may I say, also, if you have any questions you would like to ask Mrs. Oswald before you make your statement, you may do that.

Representative Boggs. Mr. Chairman, I would just like to say Mr. Thorne has been very helpful.

Mr. Thorne. During the noon recess, Mrs. Oswald made four requests of me to make before this Commission.

You have anticipated several of them, but I think there are one or two that need to be covered.

To begin with, she wanted me to express to you, Mr. Chairman, and members of your Commission, her extreme gratitude to you for the consideration and kindness that has been shown to her in these proceedings. She feels you have certainly gone out of your way to make her comfortable, and she has been comfortable, in spite of the sad and tragic events we have been discussing.

Point No. 2, she did want to make it quite clear to the Commission that in the event her testimony was needed for rebuttal or whatever on down the line, she would be available, and at your wish would come to Washington as convenient for you when it was again convenient.

The third point you have already covered. She did request that she be given a copy of these proceedings, which I told her she would receive, and, of course, copies of the exhibits would be attached for her identification and examination.

And the final point was this. She has been, as you know, under protective custody of the Secret Service from shortly after the assassination. She has been most grateful for this protection. The Secret Service have shown her every courtesy, as everyone has in this matter. She is extremely grateful for this protection they have given her.

I haven't had personally enough time to think this thing out myself. I don't know. It is her request, however, that, at this point she feels the protection is no longer necessary. She feels that at this time she can walk among people with her head held high. She has nothing to hide. She is not afraid.

She feels that the Secret Service has performed a noble service to her. And this is not meant by way of saying for some action on their part she wants to get rid of them.

I have noticed that since we have been in Washington she resents being guided. She feels she can find her way by herself.

And, if the Commission would give this matter consideration—we don't know whom to go to. I haven't thought about it. I don't know who has suggested the Secret Service continue protecting her. It is a matter, of course, that ought to be considered.

But it is her request that as soon as it is practical, she would like to be a free agent and out of the confines of this protection.

I point out to you gentlemen that she is living, as you well know, with Mr. and Mrs. Martin. They have a rather modest home. Three bedrooms. It has a den and it has a combination living and dining room. The house is not extremely large, but there are always two men in the house. This does burden the family. This is not a request on the part of the Martins. They welcome this protection. This is something she thinks in terms of herself that she does not want to feel that she is being held back.

The Chairman. Mr. Thorne, we can understand Mrs. Oswald's desire to live a perfectly normal life with her children. Whatever has been done, as you recognize, has been done for her protection, and for her help during these terrible days that she has been going through.

But she may feel from this moment on that she is under no protection, except what she might ask for. And so you are perfectly free, Mrs. Oswald, to live your normal life without any interference from anyone. And should anyone interfere with you, I hope you would call it to the attention of the Commission.

For our purposes, I would appreciate it if this matter of removal, assuming that it is to be removed shortly, is kept secret, also.

I would prefer generally for the public to feel that—at least temporarily—that this protection is available. I don't feel any qualms myself. I don't feel there are any problems. But I think the matter of Mrs. Marguerite Oswald has come up. There may be some problem from some sources.

The Chairman. Mr. Thorne, I think the correct answer to that would be—and it would be the answer we would give—that Mrs. Oswald, in the future, will be given such assistance and only such assistance as she asks for.

The Chairman. I want to say also before the session adjourns that we are indebted to Mr. Krimer for the manner in which he has interpreted. Next to the witness, I am sure he has had the hardest position in this whole hearing. And we appreciate the manner in which he has done it.

The Chairman. Very well. If there is nothing further to come before the session, we will adjourn.

Mrs. Oswald. I am very grateful to all of you. I didn't think among Americans I would find so many friends.

Monday, February 10, 1964
TESTIMONY OF MRS. MARGUERITE OSWALD

The President's Commission met at 10 a.m. on February 10, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C.

Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman: Senator Richard B. Russell, Representative Hale Boggs, Representative Gerald R. Ford, and Allen W. Dulles, members.

Also present were J. Lee Rankin, general counsel; Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel; John F. Doyle, attorney for Mrs. Marguerite Oswald; and Leon Jaworski, special counsel to the attorney general of Texas.

Let the record show that Senator Russell and I are present, and we convened today for the purpose of taking the testimony of Mrs. Oswald.

Do you solemnly swear that you will tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God, throughout this proceeding?

The Chairman. Mr. Doyle is representing you. Mr. Doyle was appointed, was he not, at your request?

The Chairman. Yes. And the record may show that Mr. Doyle was appointed to represent her at the request of Mrs. Oswald by the president of the Bar Association of the District of Columbia, Mr. Pratt.

The Chairman. Mrs. Oswald, you are appearing voluntarily before the Commission, are you not?

In order that you may have a full opportunity to testify in your own manner, and tell us everything that you know, and particularly because we do not know what you know, I am going to ask you if you would like first, in your own way, and in your own time, to tell us everything you have concerning this case.

However, there are three things that I have asked that should be brought before the Council, three requests of mine. One has already been granted—that is the counsel, Mr. Doyle. And I do appreciate that fact.

I have stated publicly that I believe in the American way of life and justice for all men, which is our American way of life.

My son, Lee Harvey Oswald, was tried and convicted within a few hours time, without benefit of counsel. And so I am appealing to the Board that my son, Lee Harvey Oswald, be represented by counsel. I am being represented by counsel. My daughter-in-law Marina was represented by counsel. And I understand that all other witnesses will have the privilege of being represented by counsel.

However, the main object of the Commission is Lee Harvey Oswald, in the murder of President Kennedy. So I strongly believe that Lee should be represented by counsel.

Now, my reasons for wanting this done this way is, I will state, that Marina has testified. Marina has testified, according to the papers—and I am assuming that this is correct—that Lee wanted to live in Russia and Cuba, and that is why he went to Mexico.

I happen to know differently—because Marina has told me the first day I was with her, "Mama, I write to Russian consul. I want go back to Russia. I like America. But Lee no get work."

So you see, had a counsel been there in behalf of my son, when Marina said that—it doesn't have to be a court trial or a cross-examination. All I am asking is that this man sit quietly, and when he knows of different facts, then he could say, "Well, Mrs. Oswald, isn't it true that you wrote the Russian consul yourself, wanting to go back to Russia?"

And in this way, gentlemen, I believe you would have both sides and a true picture.

I cannot see how you can come to a true conclusion by taking individual testimony.

Now, I, myself, am here today to testify. I have been sworn in. But that doesn't mean that I can tell the whole story. I may forget something. And the counsel would know.

We have investigators all over the country, the reporters are interested, the public. I have over 1,500 letters, people expressing their opinion of the way this case is being handled. And, believe me, gentlemen, they are not satisfied.

They think, like I think, that the American way of life, both sides should be heard.

I don't think that seven men of this Commission can come to a true conclusion.128 What it will be, it will be an analysis of what the FBI and the Secret Service and the Dallas police have—mainly, speculation and opinion of other people.

Now, Mr. Lane has affidavits, I understand, from the same witnesses that have made statements to the Dallas police, which are contrary to those particular statements.

I implore you—I implore you, in the name of justice, to let my son, Lee Harvey Oswald, who is accused of assassinating the President, and I, the mother of this man, who is the accused's mother, be represented by counsel.

The things that came out in the paper—I know, I have documents. I am not asking you to believe me as a mother. I can prove the statements that I say.

And I believe in this way you will have a true picture, and a much better picture, because as you are going along you will be having both sides, and won't have to wait to analyze the situation in the end, as the testimony is being given by each individual, right then and there—you will have the other party's testimony.

The Chairman. Before you leave that, Mrs. Oswald, may I say to you, first, that the Commission is not here to prosecute your dead son. It is not here and it was not established to prosecute anyone.

It is the purpose and the province of the Commission to obtain all the facts that it can obtain, and then make an impartial report—not as a prosecutor, but as an impartial Commission—on the manner in which the President came to his death.

We are trying to recognize the individual rights of all persons who are called before the Commission, to let them have their lawyers, and let their lawyers have an opportunity to examine them, as well as the Commission.

You may be sure that if Mr. Lane has any evidence of his own knowledge, or has any accumulation of affidavits from others, to the effect—to any effect, concerning this trial, that he will have an opportunity to come here, just as you are here, in order to present those to the Commission.

But so far as his being here at all times before the Commission to cross-examine or to be present when all witnesses are testifying—that is not in accordance with the procedures of the Commission.

But I assure you that if Mr. Lane has any evidence of any kind bearing upon the assassination of the President, he will be accorded the same opportunity that you have to come here and present them, and we will give him an opportunity in his own way to tell his story, and present his own evidence. And should he want counsel, he may have counsel, also.

I appreciate and I understand exactly what you have told me, Chief Justice Warren.

But there is one thing—and, of course, I will have to accept your decision, and will be most happy to have Mr. Lane present his testimony the way you have suggested.

We do not know the questions that you are asking of myself or Marina or the other witnesses. And I contend that you cannot ask them the pertinent questions because you don't know what I know, and what Mr. Lane knows. And so you will still have an analysis in the long run, a conclusion.

The Chairman. On that particular thing, may I say this: It is true that we don't know how to examine you at the present time because we don't know what you have to present to this Commission. But we are affording you the opportunity before we ask you any questions to tell your story, in your own way.

But I am a human being, going through a life story from childhood, and I may forget something that my counsel would know. And that applies to witnesses.129 They may forget to testify something that my counsel has facts on. I will have to accept your verdict, but I don't do it graciously.

The Chairman. Yes. Well, that is all right, Mrs. Oswald. You may state that for the record.

Mrs. Oswald. I have documents, and I would like to ask, please—I will not leave any documents out of my hand. I carry them with me wherever I go. Even Mr. Doyle has been told that the documents stay with me.

I have had documents stolen from me. I have had newspaper clippings stolen from me in my home, by the Secret Service.

Now, these are originals. I want, and you will want, copies of every original I have, and I will be more than happy to let you have them. However, I want to be present when these copies are made and the original returned to me.

I will under no circumstances let anyone have my originals for an hour or two, and then return them to me—if I am making myself plain.

When I tell my story, I will be including people in my story that possibly you don't know of. I request that I have the privilege, through you, of course, to subpena these people that are in connection with the story that I tell, if you do not have the names already.

And I feel sure that I have some information that you don't know about, and there are some people involved.

I also request that after my testimony, that Marina Oswald will be subpenaed—not subpenaed but will then testify again, if you see fit. And I believe that I have contrary testimony to her testimony that would make it necessary for her to be recalled.

The Chairman. Well, Mrs. Oswald, of course you have no power of subpena, and we have no power to give you the power of subpena. But you may be sure that if your evidence produces anything that is critical to this investigation, that we will pursue it to the end, in order to determine the weight of the testimony for our final report. You may be sure of that.

The Chairman. But as to how we do it, or when we do it, you will just have to leave that to the Commission.

Mrs. Oswald. You will give me the assurance that these people I name, regardless of title—I am liable to name some very important people——

The Chairman. Well, Mrs. Oswald—you cannot commit us to subpenaing anybody. We don't know. You are talking to us, and we are in the dark. You cannot commit this Commission to doing something that might be improper, it might not even be helpful in any way, shape, or form. The Commission will be reasonable in every respect. We have no desire to protect anyone. We have no desire to injure you or anyone else in this matter. And certainly you ought to have some confidence in a commission that is appointed by the President, and not try to tie our hands in a way that would be contrary to the manner in which commissions normally proceed.

Mrs. Oswald. Now, Mr. Warren, you made a statement that you in no way—I cannot quote your words—intimidate me. But you did not include my son. My son is being accused of the murder of President Kennedy. And I think that my son should be considered in this. He is dead. But we can show cause that my son is not the assassin of President Kennedy. And so I would like my son—he is the main object of the Presidential Commission, is he not, sir?

The Chairman. No, no, he is not, Mrs. Oswald. The purpose of this Commission is to determine what the facts are in the assassination of President Kennedy.

130 It is not an accusation against your son. There was an accusation against your son in the Texas courts. That is an entirely different proceeding.

We are here to do justice and be fair to everyone concerned in this matter. And I assure you that that is our main and our only purpose in serving on this Commission. None of us cherish this responsibility.

The Chairman. And the only satisfaction we can derive from it is to be fair to all concerned.

Mrs. Oswald. I do not mean to imply that this Commission will not be fair. I know about the men on the Commission. And they are all very fine men, including yourself, Chief Justice Warren. If I have implied that, I will—will now say I do not imply. But I do state a fact that I do not think that you can come to a true conclusion. I want that for record.

Now, I am going to produce—and this will be a fact—and this is on the basis——

The Chairman. Now, we have finished the three things that you are talking about, and we are going to your testimony?

Mrs. Oswald. This is in connection with this, Chief Justice Warren. And I think it is very important to present a picture.

Mrs. Oswald. Now, I believe you mentioned that you would not have the power or give me the power to subpena them. But if I could produce the facts in my story, then I believe we should have these people called.

Now, here is an article in the Washington paper—and the date happens to be torn off, but I can get it—that Senator John G. Tower had made. And I have outlined here——

The Chairman. I wonder, Mrs. Oswald—before we get into any details of this kind, let's settle this situation as to whether the Commission will say to you now that it will subpena anyone you ask.

I must say to you that you cannot put that burden on the Commission. The Commission will have to exercise its own discretion as to who it subpenas and when.

Mr. Doyle. Mr. Chief Justice, may I say something? I was wondering if whether or not what Mrs. Oswald is addressing respectfully to the Commission is her confidence that if in the course of her own testimony and the actual facts that she is producing, she expresses confidence that if those facts recommend the subpena of additional witnesses, or the recall of others, she expresses her confidence that that would be done, if the facts she outlines so require.

But the only thing—I would not want Mrs. Oswald to leave here and say, "I gave the Commission a list of witnesses and they did not call all of them."

Now, that is a matter that will have to be in the province of the Commission, and not in the province of a witness.

And I say that without any combative—not in a combative spirit. Because, as your counsel states, I think we are not far apart on it, Mrs. Oswald.

The Chairman. But fairness will have to judge our actions. And we propose to be fair.

Mrs. Oswald. Now, I guess I am a very stubborn person. I am a very aggressive person, as you know by now.

I would like—this would be just 2 minutes, and it would bring a point, and then I would be through, if I may.

Mrs. Oswald. Senator Towner has dates here, and the main part of the article is that he had received a letter from the State Department.

Now, I would like—I have information from the State Department, I have documents from the State Department which is contrary to the dates and contrary to Senator Tower's public statement.

131 And I would like to have the letter that he has from the State Department, and the name of the man that wrote it, because it is contrary to what I have.

He could have been, to use an American slang, shooting his mouth off, because he said if he went to Russia let him stay there, I would not help him—is what he said.

But then again he may have this very important letter from this man in the State Department, which is incorrect, from what I have.

Now, he claims—and if you would like to read that—and that is what I was trying to bring out.

The Chairman. I think you will have to leave that to the wisdom of the Commission and its sense of fair play, and what is necessary, all facts considered.

Mrs. Oswald. Well, I have had my say, gentlemen, and I will most graciously continue.

However. I am not too happy that I will not have counsel for my son, because I believe my son would also be entitled to counsel.

The Chairman. Mrs. Oswald, may I introduce Congressman Ford, also a member of the Commission.

Now, Mrs. Oswald—Mr. Lee Rankin will be in charge of the hearing from this point on. He is our General Counsel, as you know.

Mr. Rankin. Mrs. Oswald, will you proceed to produce the papers and tell us about them, and then I will ask the Commission after we get them, to permit us to substitute copies, and in accordance with your request we will let you be present at the time we make the photostats.

Mrs. Oswald. I have three different stories. I understand from Mr. Rankin's letter that my life is to be told from the very start, and so is Lee's life, from the very start. So which will I start first?

I believe it would be easier for me and of more benefit to the counsel if I would continue with one life, the whole story, and then continue with the—whichever way you would suggest I do it.

Mr. Rankin. If you could start out and tell us within the period that Lee Oswald returned from the Soviet Union on, whatever you know about it, in your own way, and then we will go back to the other matters later.

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, sir—anything is just fine. I am willing to help in any way possible.

I received a speedletter from the State Department stating that Lee would leave Moscow, and how he would leave and arrive in New York—on June 13, 1962. I was on a case in Crowell, Tex. I am a practical nurse. And I was taking care of a very elderly woman, whose daughter lived in Fort Worth, Tex.

Approximately about a week later—I could not stand it any more—I called the daughter and had her come to take care of her mother, and took 3 days off, and went to Fort Worth to see Lee and Marina.

Marina is a beautiful girl. And I said to Lee, "Marina, she doesn't look Russian. She is beautiful."

He says, "Of course not. That is why I married her, because she looks like an American girl."

I asked her where he had met her, and he said he met her at a social function, a community function.

I said, "You know, Lee, I am getting ready—I was getting ready to write a book on your so-called defection.

"I had researched it and came to Washington in 1961, and, by the way, asked to see President Kennedy, because I had a lot of extenuating circumstances at the time because of the defection."

132 I said, "Lee, don't tell me what to do. I cannot write the book now, because, Honey, you are alive and back."

But, at the time, I had no way of knowing whether my son was living or dead, and I planned to write the book.

"But don't tell me what to do. It has nothing to do with you and Marina. It is my life, because of your defection."

He said, "Mother, I tell you you are not to write the book. They could kill her and her family."

Mrs. Oswald. Let's see. Lee arrived in New York on June 13, and—now, I have a letter stating, from Lee, that he is arriving in New York on June 13th. However, he plans to go to Washington for a day or two. So I have no way of knowing, Mr. Rankin, whether he came straight from New York to my son's home, or if he stayed in New York and came to Washington a few days.

Mr. Rankin. Was this conversation within about a week of the time that he came back?

So I stayed in Fort Worth 2 or 3 days. I did not live at Robert's home. I rented a motel. In fact, the lady of the mother I was taking care of paid my motel expenses while I was in Fort Worth. But I went there every day.

While I was there—Marina is a pharmacist. I have a medical book, and Lee was saying that he was losing his hair, and how he had become bald, because of the cold weather in Texas.

So I got the medical book, looking up baldness, and the treatment for baldness, and Marina came by and she read the prescriptions.

So I said, "Lee, she reads English," and he said, "Mother, that is Latin, of course, that is universal."

So because it was a medical conversation, Lee said he had an operation while in the Soviet Union on his throat.

I am sorry—but all of the confusion of myself being there and the daughter-in-law, the Russian girl—that was never gone into. That is all I know.

But that was also said in the presence of my son Robert—that he had an operation on his throat while in the Soviet Union.

As I say, with all the confusion of Marina, we were so thrilled with Marina, with the children and all, there was quite a bit of confusion.

While I was in Robert's home, Lee immediately was out job-hunting. And I felt very bad about that, because they had come 10,000 miles by ship, by plane, and by train, which was an awfully hard trip with a young baby, and I thought he should at least have a week or two before he would look for work.

And this is the time that Lee had gone to the public stenographer, made the statement that he was writing a book.

I bought Marina clothes, and brought clothes to her while at my daughter-in-law's house, bought diapers for the baby. And Marina had more clothes when she arrived in the States than I now have.

So what I am trying to state is as we go further into the story, it has been stated that my son neglected Marina, and that she didn't have any clothes. The Russian people have stated that all throughout Texas in the papers. And that is not true. I happen to know, because I, myself, bought Marina three dresses. And my daughter-in-law bought dresses, and my daughter-in-law's sister, which I would like to have as a witness, bought clothes for Marina. So there is this conflicting testimony.

133 Mrs. Oswald. Robert's wife. And Robert's wife's sister, who is a schoolteacher, bought clothes for Marina.

So then I went back to Crowell, Tex., and I was not satisfied in my mind because the way they lived. They only had a two-bedroom house. As you know. Robert has two children. And there was another couple with another child.

So I decided that I would quit this job and help the children all I could. So I did. I gave notice. And I came to Fort Worth, and I rented an apartment at the Rotary Apartments, which is on West 7th and Summit. And Lee and Marina then came to live with me.

Lee and Marina had sent me wonderful gifts, and I have the gifts, from Russia. A box of tea, very fine tea, a Russian scarf, pure linen napkins, embroidered with my initial, a box of candy for Christmas that has a Russian Santa Claus on it.

I said to Lee. "Lee, I want to know one thing. Why is it you decided to return back to the United States when you had a job in Russia, and as far as I know you seemed to be pretty well off, because of the gifts that you have sent me. And you are married to a Russian girl, and she would be better off in her homeland than here. I want to know."

He said, "Mother, not even Marina knows why I have returned to the United States."

Mr. Rankin. How did you get along when you were there together with Marina and your son?

Mrs. Oswald. Well, that was a very happy month, Mr. Rankin. Marina was very happy. She had the best home, I believe, that she had ever had. And Lee—I was taking Lee out to work every morning, looking for work, through the unemployment commission, and ads in the paper. And I was taking care of the baby and doing the cooking, and Marina was helping clean up. And she would wash the dishes. And Lee and Marina would go for long walks every afternoon, and I would take care of the baby. Marina would sing around the house, and watch the television and comment on different programs, programs that she had seen in Russia.

She knew—there was a picture with Gregory Peck, and she said, "Mama, I know Gregory Peck."

And here again in my stupidity, I said to Lee, "Lee, she knows English, she is singing Santa Lucia."

He was offered several good jobs from the State Employment Office of Texas. One in particular, I remember he said that he regretted not getting the job, but they told him because his wife was not an American citizen, that they would not be able to hire him.

This one particular woman at the Texas employment agency took an interest in Lee and went out all the way to give Lee clues for jobs. And I, myself, took Lee job-hunting every day.

And it is through the employment office that he became employed 3 weeks later, after he was in my home, by the Leslie Manufacturing Co. in Fort Worth, which is a sheetmetal place.

Mr. Rankin. Now, while Marina was living with you there, and your son, and the little baby——

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, she spoke English, Mr. Rankin. Like she would say—and we used the dictionary when she didn't understand.

Mr. Rankin. What I would like to find out for the Commission, if we can, in regard to speaking English, did you think she was able to talk English fluently, or did you think she was in the process of learning it?

Mrs. Oswald. She was in the process of learning. But she understood more than she could talk.

And I have a letter from Lee stating that Marina also speaks and understands French, that she had learned at grammar school.

And you asked about this time—it was a very happy time. They would sit at the table. They were playing a game, and I said to Lee, "What is it you are doing?"

And they also taught each other. They had books. They are both children—very intelligent and studious. Lee was teaching Marina English, and Marina was teaching him some things that he wanted to know about Russia, in my home.

Mr. Rankin. Now, you were saying that he got this job at the Leslie Manufacturing Co.

And then his first pay—he kept his first pay. And then the second pay, he rented the home on Mercedes Street, which is the south side, and approximately 10 blocks from where I lived at the Rotary Apartment, and approximately 10 blocks from where he was to work.

Lee had no car, and Lee walked to and back from work, which helped to save money.

Now, you must understand that this couple had no money, and had nothing. I gave them some dishes, and some silverware, and just a few little things that I could help out with.

And then the second week's pay. And he rented this home which was $59.50 a month. It was a nice little one-bedroom furnished duplex, in a nice neighborhood, convenient to his work.

I brought food into the house. I never like to talk about the other members of the family, because to me that is speculation. But I know that Robert brought food, also, in the house. And they were not in want. Marina nursed June.

Now, it has been stated in the paper that the Russian friends have gone into the home and they are talking about this home, and found that they were in desperate straits, that there was no food in the house, and no milk for the baby.

They may have walked into this home, where maybe they didn't have at that particular time any milk in the box. Maybe Lee was going to bring groceries home. But I know they were not in destitute circumstances in that respect.

They had no money and didn't have anything. I brought groceries, and I brought a roll of scotch toweling. I had bought two packs and I gave them one.

135 And the next day when I went by, the scotch toweling was in the kitchen, on a coat hanger, with a nail.

And I think that is real nice, a young couple that doesn't have any money, that they can use their imagination, and put up the scotch toweling to use on a coat hanger. They are just starting married life in a new country. And they have no money. But here is the point. The Russian friends, who were established, and had cars and fine homes, could not see this Russian girl doing without. They are the ones that interfered. They are the ones that interfered, and were not happy the way this Russian girl—and within a short time, then, this Russian girl had a playpen, had a sewing machine, had a baby bed, and a Taylor Tot. And this all came out in the paper—that they supplied this to the girl, because she was in need of these things.

I say it is not necessary for a young couple to have a playpen for a baby. We have millions and millions of American couples in the United States that cannot afford playpens for the children. I, myself, have been in that position.

The point I am trying to bring out is that these Russian friends have interfered in their lives, and thought that the Russian girl should have more than necessary.

And my son could not supply these things at that particular time. He was just starting to work.

This, to me, is very strong in my mind, that there are a lot of Russian friends that were made immediately, that have interfered and have publicly stated—a circle of friends, approximately eight or nine, that would not give their names in the paper, they were interviewed by Mr. Tinsley of the Star Telegram—that has downed Lee for every way possible.

So these are the Russian friends who are established with cars, and didn't think that the Russian girl was getting a good break in America.

Mr. Rankin. Were there any differences between you and Lee Oswald or Marina while they were in your home? Did you have any quarrels?

Now, there was one thing. And I will point out the character of my son, and what I am saying about the playpen and so on.

Now, this was all done within a few weeks time. They moved there—they left my home in July, and they moved there in August, and then they moved to Dallas in October. So it was in this period of time that all these things were accumulated from Russian friends.

And no man likes other people giving—interfering in his way of living, and giving all these things to his wife that he himself cannot supply. This is a human trait, I would say.

I could not afford to buy a bed for my grandchild, because I have worked prior to this for nothing. The job that I had quit I was making $25 a week, gentlemen—a 24-hour live-in job. The jobs prior to this I worked for $10 a week, 7 days a week, a live-in job.

Because of Lee's so-called defection, and my accident, the way I was treated, left destitute, without any medical or compensation, I decided to devote my life to humanity, and I became a practical nurse. And I have worked for $5 a week, living in the place.

So I had no money, I had $200 saved, when I came to Fort Worth, and that is what I rented the house with, and brought the food with.

So to get back now to the home, Mr. Rankin—we had no quarrels. This month was beautiful. Marina was very happy.

As I say, they were free to go and come like they want. They would take long walks.

If you are not familiar with Fort Worth, Tex., from the Rotary Apartment to Leonard Brothers is approximately 3 miles, and they used to walk there, and they came home—Marina came home with a Cancan petticoat and some136 hose that Lee bought here with a few dollars that Robert and I had given him—he spent on his wife.

Now, when they lived in the home on Mercedes Street that he rented, I was employed as an OB, a nurse, in Fort Worth, Tex., at an OB's salary. And that salary, gentlemen, will astonish you. I worked, lived in, for $9 a day, 24 hours duty.

On an OB case—I am very busy with the baby all day long because people are coming in and out, giving presents and so on. I have a 10 o'clock feeding for the baby. And it is approximately 11 o'clock before I am through and in bed. The baby is up again at 2 o'clock. It is approximately 3:30 before I am through again with the baby. The baby is up again at 5:30. And it is approximately—then my day starts. I am stressing the point that I worked for $9 a day during all that, a $9 a day job. So that is 7 days a week, $63.

Now, this is the first time I have had a nurse's salary, I want you to understand.

So with my first pay, I bought Marina clothes, I bought the baby clothes, and I brought food into this home. I went all out for Marina. I just love her, and was just thrilled to death with her. And I bought a highchair. I could not afford a bed, because I didn't have enough money to buy the bed. So that is why I bought the clothes and things of that sort. But I bought the baby a highchair.

Mrs. Oswald. Fine. But then Marina was not satisfied with the things that I bought her.

As you see, the way I am properly dressed—I don't say I mean to be the height of fashion, but I have—before becoming a nurse I was in the business world, and I have been a manager in the merchandise field. So I do know clothes.

And I bought her some shorts. And she wanted short shorts, like the Americans. She pictured America in her mind evidently.

I said, "Marina, you are a married woman and it is proper for you to have a little longer shorts than the younger girls."

And I will stress this—that Marina was never too happy—"No, Mama, no nice, no, Mama, no this."

That was perfectly all right. I thought she didn't understand our ways. I didn't feel badly about it.

I bought the highchair and brought it over there, and Lee was not at home. And Marina didn't know what a highchair was. And she told me in Russian. I said, "How do they feed babies in Russia?" By this time, June was 4 or 5 months old, just getting ready to sit up.

So approximately 2 or 3 days later I go over there and Lee says to me, "Now, Mother, I want you to understand right here and now—I want you to stop giving all these gifts to me and my wife. I want to give Marina whatever is necessary, the best I can do. I want you to keep your money and take care of yourself, because today or tomorrow you take sick, and you spend all your money on us, I will have to take care of you." Which makes very good sense.

But he strongly put me in my place about buying things for his wife that he himself could not buy.

Mrs. Oswald. I agreed with him. And I said—the shock of it—I realize what a mother-in-law I was in interfering. And, of course, that is part that we mothers-in-law do unconsciously. We try to help out our children, and137 in a way we are interfering in their life. They would rather have their own way of doing things.

And I realize that I had interfered, and the boy wanted to take care of his wife. So no more was said about it.

I go into many homes, being a nurse, and I see this problem also, where the mothers and mothers-in-law bring things, and the men strongly object to it—they would rather do without, and have their wife do without, and they themselves be the master of the home.

So then I realized I was being a foolish mother-in-law, and that he was perfectly right.

I should save my money and take care of myself. He had a wife and baby to take care of. If I didn't have any money, he might have to take care of me. So I agreed with that.

Mrs. Oswald. Well, no, Marina didn't know—unless she understood the English part. I have no way of knowing, you see.

This, gentlemen, is very emotional to me, because it is a humanitarian side that I am trying to bring out. Material things are involved to me that are of no consequence. And I am trying to point out the fact that these Russian people seemed to think that the Russian girl should have material things.

I was on the OB case for very wealthy people. I then became a nurse and by word of mouth I had worked in the finest homes in Fort Worth at this salary. I have worked for Ammon Carter, Jr., who is the owner of the Star Telegram. I have worked in his home. I have worked for Dr. Ross seven weeks in his home. I have worked for Mayor Vandergriff. I took care of his last baby in his home. And I can go on and on.

So I have been employed in over 200 homes at this salary. So I know the difference of working in very poor homes, people on welfare, that I worked in, and then working in the rich homes. So I have experience, gentlemen, is what I am trying to say.

So I mentioned to Mrs. Rosenthal that Lee and Marina didn't have a baby bed, and Lee didn't have work clothes. He had had his suits from the United States yet with him when he went to Russia. But he needed work clothes since he got this job.

So she got out a lot of work clothes that her husband didn't want. However, she asked me $10 for 12 pairs of used pants. And I would not buy—give her $12. Here is a very wealthy woman, and she knows the story. And she knows that I have no money. And yet she expects me to pay for his used clothing. And so I have this principle about me. And I did not buy the used clothing, the clothing for Lee.

Now, Lee is having a birthday, which is October 18th. And this is approximately the 6th or 7th of October.

Now, this Sunday, October 12th, I went—this is very important, gentleman—I went to this home and I was there—I asked to get off an hour or two to see the children, from this OB case at the Rosenthals. I went to see my son and daughter-in-law, and they were nicely dressed. And while there, about 10 minutes, a young couple came into the home, approximately the same age as Marina and Lee, and they had a little boy who I would say was about 6 or 8 months older than June. The woman put the little boy in the playpen with June, and June went to touch him, and Marina got up and said, "Oh, no, hurt baby." She spoke in English. So I said, "Do you speak Russian?" to this couple. And they said, "No, we don't. We are Americans. But my father"—and I will have to say this—"or grandfather"—I do not know which—"is a Russian, from Siberia, and that is how we know Marina and Lee."

So the conversation was general. And in the general conversation—now,138 this couple was from Dallas, visiting my family in Fort Worth. The conversation was general.

And she said, "Lee, my father has this place of business in Dallas, and will offer you a job in Dallas."

I said, "Lee, I didn't know that you wanted to give up your job and work in Dallas, because the Rosenthals that I am working for, her father owns the meatpacking house in Dallas, and she has told me that he employs hundreds of people, and if ever any time that you are in need, to go see her father, that she would be sure that he would give you a job."

The point I am bringing, is that Lee had no idea of quitting his job in Fort Worth, because he was not packed. This was on a Sunday. And this couple offered a job in Dallas. And their father, her grandfather, was a Russian, and Lee went to Dallas on a Monday, and worked for the Arts Graphic. I do not know—but you probably have that information. His very first job there.

Mrs. Oswald. No, sir, he was not discharged by the Leslie people. He just didn't show up. He was paid on a Friday, and that Monday he did not show up for work, because he came to Dallas.

The point I am bringing out is this job was also offered to Lee from a Russian father. He had no idea of moving. There was nothing packed.

Now, I understand that my son Robert helped him to move. And the way I know this—I went there on a Tuesday, and the children had gone, because they had left on a Monday. So then I went to Robert's home, and Robert was at work. So I was all upset. They didn't tell me they were leaving.

Mrs. Oswald. Veda, V-e-d-a. Robert's wife is Veda. I said they had to move yesterday.

She said "Robert helped them to move, and they gave us the food in the refrigerator."

I said it came up all of a sudden, and I told the story about the couple being there.

I have asked Mrs. Paine recently, and she said she does not remember. And the night I was in Mrs. Paine's home, I asked Marina and Mrs. Paine, and they did say a name. Marina would know the name of the couple. But I do not have that information.

Mrs. Oswald. The father was the owner of the business. And this was an American couple. And they did not speak Russian, either one. The father was a Russian, or the grandfather—that owned this place of business.

So now here is something that I would like to have my daughter-in-law as a witness.

It has been stated in the paper that my son was giving Marina black eyes and possibly had beat her. And this is by the Russian people.

Now, living in this home in Fort Worth, I had gone by several times I had a day off, and Marina was not at home.

I said to her, "Marina, Mama come to see you yesterday. You no home." She didn't answer.

Mrs. Oswald. I do not know for a fact. But my son Robert will know.139 And that is why it is important to call him. That is what I am trying to say, Chief Justice Warren. These others will know this part of my story, give you the facts.

I am assuming it is Mr. Peter Gregory's wife that started these lessons. But Marina was taking English lessons.

Now, they lived at a corner house, and there is Carol Street, and opposite Carol Street is a parking lot for Montgomery Ward. They live approximately two blocks from Montgomery Ward. So I had gone by, as I am stating, several times. You have to understand—this is just 6 or 7 weeks that they are in this home.

Then Marina was not home. I could not understand where so fast that they could have so many friends, that this Russian girl didn't speak English and know her way about, could be gone all day long. That worried me.

So I sat in the car on Montgomery Ward's parking lot, where I could see the house, because I wanted to see who Marina was going to come home with.

By this time, I was wondering how she could be gone all the time, being a stranger in town.

Finally, I went home, had my supper, left my apartment, and on the way going back to the house Lee was leaving Montgomery Ward.

Now, they did not have a phone. I am just assuming—this is not a fact—that Lee went to a telephone trying to locate his wife, because I was coming from Montgomery Ward. He got in the car with me, and we had about a block to go. I entered the home with Lee, and I said, "Lee where is Marina?" Of course, I knew that she wasn't home, because I had stayed in the car all day.

So I left. I am not going to interfere in their married life. But I did offer to fix him supper. And I went back to make sure Marina still wasn't home.

So approximately 2 days later—not approximately, but 2 days later I went to the home and my son was reading, he read continuously—in the living room, and Marina was in the bedroom, I could not see Marina. And I said to Lee, "Tell Marina, I am here."

So I went into the bedroom, and she was nursing June with her head down. And I started to talk. And she still had her head down. And I came around to the front and I saw Marina with a black eye.

Now, gentlemen, I don't think any man should hit his wife, as is stated in the paper, or beat his wife. But I will say this. There may be times that a woman needs to have a black eye. I am not condoning the act. But I strongly am saying that this girl was not home. And this man was working. And I saw, myself, that this man came home and didn't have any food. This couple doesn't have a maid or anyone to give this working man food. And I think it was her duty to be home and have his supper ready.

That is a little thing, maybe. But to me it shows the character of what I am trying to bring out.

And so there may have been reasons that the children fought. And I also know that many, many couples fight, of our finest people, because I made it clear before that I have worked in these very fine homes, and have seen very fine people fight. I have seen a gentleman strike his wife in front of me. We know this happens. It is not a nice thing to do. But it happens in our finest homes. I am not condoning the act. But I am telling you that there probably was reasons, we will say. The woman has a black eye, and he is a louse—he gave her a black eye, but we must consider why did he give her a black eye. We always must consider the second aspect of the case.

140 Mr. Rankin. Did you ask Marina how she got the black eye or anything about it?

So I went in the living room and I said, "Lee, what do you mean by striking Marina?"

Now, this has been publicly stated by the Russian friends, that he beat his wife. I don't know if he did beat his wife. I happened to see the black eye. I know that he hit her and gave her a black eye. Marina said so, and my son has said so. But how many times does this happen, I don't know.

But I am trying to point out that I don't approve of it. But I am trying to point out that everything is not according to Hoyle, as we say in our American way of life.

Mr. Rankin. Is there any other time that you recall that you saw that she had bruises or a black eye?

I have accepted and I have the public papers, in 1959, when Lee went to Russia—I made a statement that as an individual I thought he had a right to make up his own mind in the decision to do what he wanted. I am of that nature, because, gentlemen, today or tomorrow I may decide to go to Russia, I will go. We are taught that in America, that we have the right to do what we want as an individual. So I publicly stated in 1959 that Lee had a right, if he wanted to live in that country. And I think it was courage that he did so, instead of staying in America and talking about America, and living here and downing his country. It took courage to go and live where he wanted to live.

I was criticized highly for making that statement. And it is published in 1959—as far back as that.

So I accepted the fact that my son Lee did not want me to know that he was in Dallas.

I have had it very hard, Mr. Rankin, and gentlemen—I have lost jobs, I was in a position, if I was in a home and television was on, and something political was on television, and the people commented, I felt it was necessary to keep quiet, because of it. Because of the defection I thought if I would express my views they might think I was a Communist like my son was supposed to be. And in many a home I have been in—after three or four days they would tell me my services were not needed.

I cannot say, sure it was because of Lee's defection. However, I feel sure that it is, because I am a respected person, and a very good nurse, as has been stated in the paper. And my jobs were gotten from word of mouth.

But you must understand that I deal with a lot of people. So naturally it is natural that some of them would feel resentful against me because of my son defecting to Russia and presumably being a Communist.

Mr. Rankin. Did you ever find out where Marina was that day that you tried to locate her?

So I respected my son's wish, since he didn't want to tell me where he was in Dallas, that I would accept that fact.

Now, gentlemen, this may seem hard that I accept these things. But it is not. I am self-supporting. I have a life of my own. And if Lee decides that that is the way he wants it, I am not going to grieve and worry about it. I have to get my sleep in order to work. I have the ability of accepting things, the ability granted me by the grace of God, because of my difficulty in life. I have been a widow. I have had many, many obstacles, and I have had to face them. And my faith gets stronger. I do accept things.

141 As now, I accept the death of my son. I don't brood over that. I have that ability of doing that.

So I just accepted the fact—when Lee gets ready to let me know where he is, fine—up until that time, it is his privilege to do what he wants.

Now, that is the last contact I have had with Marina and Lee until the news broke in Dallas that Lee was picked up because of the assassination of President Kennedy.

Mr. Rankin. Tell us about this period you were talking about, when he went to Dallas. Was that before or after the time he went to New Orleans?

Mrs. Oswald. That was before the time, sir—he lived—from my apartment, the Rotary Apartments, when Lee got the job he lived on Mercedes Street from the end of July, I would say, or the beginning of September, until October, when he left to go to Dallas.

Mrs. Oswald. I am sorry—1962. And that was the last I had seen of Marina and Lee.

Mrs. Oswald. No, sir. I explained before that I made no attempt. I thought when they get ready to let me know, that is fine. Up until then, I had to do my own work and take care of myself. And I do respect other people's privileges. If that is the way they want it, fine.

When they get ready to let me know, I will welcome them. If not, I will go about my own business.

Mrs. Oswald. I had not learned of that until after the assassination. I knew nothing, I had no contact with them.

So, then, the next thing we should start then would be the Dallas—the assassination.

Mrs. Oswald. Well, I was on a case in a rest home, and I had a 3 to 11 shift. I was dressed, ready to go to work. I was watching—I am a little ahead of my story.

I watched the television in the morning before I was dressed. And Richard Nixon was in Dallas, and he made a television appearance approximately 2 hours before President Kennedy was to arrive in Dallas. And, as a layman, I remember saying, "Well, the audacity of him, to make this statement against President Kennedy just an hour or two before his arrival in Dallas."

And then I had my lunch, and I dressed, with my nurse's uniform on, to go to work, for the 3 to 11 shift. And I have to leave home at 2:30. So I had a little time to watch the Presidential procession.

And while sitting on the sofa, the news came that the President was shot. And there was a witness on television, a man and a little girl on television. However, I could not continue to watch it. I had to report to work.

So I went in the car, and approximately seven blocks away I turned the radio on in the car. I heard that Lee Harvey Oswald was picked up as a suspect.

I immediately turned the car around and came back home, got on the telephone, called Acme Brick in Fort Worth, and asked where Robert was, because he had been traveling, and I must get in touch with Robert immediately, because his brother was picked up as a suspect in the assassination. So they had Robert call me.

Mrs. Oswald. This was 2:30, because I was on my way to work, and I had to be at work at 3 o'clock.

142 I had Acme Brick call Robert to give him the news, and Robert called me, and he had not heard his brother was picked up.

Now, Robert is in Denton. So I called the Star Telegram, and asked that—if they could possibly have someone escort me to Dallas, because I realized I could not drive to Dallas. And they did. They sent two men to escort me to Dallas.

Mrs. Oswald. Star Telegram reporters, sent by the Star Telegram editor to escort me to Dallas.

Now, upon arriving in Dallas, I did not ask—I did not want to talk to the police. I asked specifically to talk to FBI agents. My wish was granted, I was sent into a room. I have to backtrack my story.

Mrs. Oswald. This is approximately 3:30. So I am escorted into an office, and two Brown FBI agents, they are brothers, I understand, and there was another man that I do not know the name.

Mrs. Oswald. Their names were Brown. And I have the correct names, also. But we were in this room, and I told them who I was. And I said, "I want to talk with you gentlemen because I feel like my son is an agent of the government, and for the security of my country, I don't want this to get out."

I said, "I understand you work with Washington. But I want officials from Washington," and I believed they would be in town because of protecting the President.

I said, "I do not want local FBI men. What I have to say I want to say to Washington men."

I said, "For the security of my country, I want this kept perfectly quiet until you investigate. I happen to know that the State Department furnished the money for my son to return back to the United States, and I don't know if that would be made public what that would involve, and so please will you investigate this and keep this quiet."

And I gave them the names of the four men I had talked with while in Washington.

Mrs. Oswald. One is Mr. Boster, who was special counsel in charge of Soviet affairs.

Well, gentlemen, Mr. Doyle will see that I give you the names of these men. I had it in a little card and carried it all these years from my Washington trip and gave it to the FBI men to investigate.

Mr. Rankin. When you say you understand that the State Department paid your son's way back from the Soviet Union——

143 Mrs. Oswald. I have the document to state that they loaned Lee the money to come back.

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, sir. But I stated—you see, I was worried about the security of my country. I didn't know if the public would find out—how they would take the news that the State Department loaned him the money, since now he is a Marxist and an accused assassin.

I was worried about my country. And I didn't want the public to know. I wanted the FBI, not the police, to know.

Mr. Rankin. Did you know anything else that you told them about why you thought he was an agent?

Mrs. Oswald. No, I didn't tell them anything. But they questioned me, started to question me.

One of them said, "You know a lot about your son. When was the last time you were in touch with him?"

He said sarcastically, "Now, Mrs. Oswald, are we to believe you have not been in touch with your son in a year? You are a mother."

I said, "Believe what you want. But I have not been in touch with my son in a year. My son did not want me involved. He has kept me out of his activities. That is the truth, God's truth, that I have not seen my son in a year."

They sent the stenographer that was in the outer office to sit with me, and she started to question me.

I said, "Young lady, I am not going to be questioned. You may just as well make up your mind that I am just going to sit here. What I want, if you will relay—have these two Star Telegram men come in here, please. I would like to ask them something."

But I sat in the office approximately 2 or 3 hours alone, gentlemen, with this woman who came in and out.

I said, "If you think you are going to question me or get information from me, you are not."

Every now and then I would walk up to the outer corridor and say to whoever was there, "Now, listen, I am getting tired of this. I want to see Lee."

Mrs. Oswald. No, I don't know. It was a private office that lead—for instance, it would be like in the corner, a glass-enclosed office. And then you could see the outer corridor where the stenographers and the police and everybody was.

Mrs. Oswald. No, sir, I do not. So I sat there approximately 3 hours. And I never did get to see Lee.

And I will state now emphatically that I have never been questioned by the FBI or the Secret Service—never, gentlemen. If they can produce my voice or anything, they can produce it.

So then I was escorted into the office where Marina and Mrs. Paine was. And, of course, I started crying right away, and hugged Marina. And Marina gave me Rachel, whom I had never seen. I did not know I had a second grandchild, until this very moment. So I started to cry. Marina started to cry. And Mrs. Paine said, "Oh, Mrs. Oswald, I am so glad to meet you. Marina has often expressed the desire to contact you, especially when the baby was being born. But Lee didn't want her to."

She said, "Well, because of the way they lived, he lived in Dallas, and came home to my home on weekends. I didn't feel like I wanted to interfere."

Mrs. Oswald. She acted as interpreter for Marina. We are in the courthouse now, in the jailhouse.

So her testimony, gentlemen, the testimony that the Dallas police have, is the testimony of Mrs. Paine, that Marina assumed Lee had given her.

Could we state now maybe it is not the correct testimony that Marina gave—just one interpreter, and Marina's friend, is the testimony that the Dallas police has.

I have no way of knowing, and you have no way of knowing, gentlemen, whether it is the correct testimony.

And I said, "I don't know what I am going to do. I want to stay in Dallas and be near Lee, so that I can help with this situation as much as possible."

She said, "Mrs. Oswald, you are welcome in my home—if you care to sleep on the sofa."

I said, "Thank you very much, Mrs. Paine, I will accept your offer. I will sleep on the floor in order to be near Dallas."

Mrs. Oswald. This was the night of Friday, November 22d. We arrived there approximately 6 o'clock. Upon entering the home, about 5 minutes after I was in the home, there was a knock on the door.

Now, this is a little vague. On the way leaving the courthouse we may have been in the company of the two Life representatives. They may have taken us to Mrs. Paine's home. I did not ask who was taking us to Mrs. Paine's home, because I was holding my grandbaby and talking to Marina, and sitting in the back of the car. And it didn't interest me at the time how I was getting to Mrs. Paine's home.

Why I am bringing this up was because after I was in her home, about 5 minutes, there was a knock on the door, and these two Life representatives entered the home.

Mrs. Oswald. No, I had never seen them before. As I say, they could have been the men driving the car. But I want you to understand at the time I didn't notice that, because I was holding my new grandbaby, and comforting my daughter-in-law, and talking to Mrs. Paine in the back seat of the car.

So Mrs. Paine sat on the floor. And she said to the photographer—he had a camera in front of him—"Now, I hope you have good color film, because I want good pictures."

Mrs. Oswald. This was approximately 6:30. We had just arrived in Mrs. Paine's home—I would say 6 and 7 o'clock, approximately, between that time. We are home 5 minutes when they knocked on the door.

Mrs. Paine immediately says, "Gentlemen, I hope you have colored film so we will have some good pictures."

So Tommy Thompson started to interview Mrs. Paine. He said, "Mrs. Paine, tell me, are Marina and Lee separated, since Lee lives in Dallas?"

She said, "No, they are a happy family. Lee lives in Dallas because of necessity. He works in Dallas, and this is Irving, and he has no transportation, and he comes every weekend to see his family."

145 She said, "A normal family man. He plays with his children. Last night he fed June. He watches television and just normal things."

So he said, "Mrs. Paine, can you tell me how Lee got, the money to"—I am sorry—"can you tell me how Lee was able to return back to the United States financially?"

Now, while this little episode went on, I was fuming, gentlemen, because I didn't want this type of publicity. I thought it was uncalled for, immediately after the assassination, and the consequent arrest of my son.

Now I had an opportunity to be gracious. I spoke up and I said—I am ahead of myself.

I spoke up and I said, "Now, Mrs. Paine, I am sorry. I am in your home. And I appreciate the fact that I am a guest in your home. But I will not have you making statements that are incorrect. Because I happen to know you have made an incorrect statement. To begin with, I do not approve of this publicity. And if we are going to have the life story with Life magazine"—by that time I knew what it was—"I would like to get paid. Here is my daughter-in-law with two small children, and I, myself, am penniless, and if we are going to give this information, I believe we should get paid for it."

Mrs. Oswald. Possibly. But I do know this. It was prearranged. That is the point that is important. That after a few hours time, the Life representatives were invited to her home, into her home, because she expected them, you see.

I do not know. It was arranged—I am positive—the way they entered the home. She invited them in, without even introducing me. And immediately said she hoped they had color film.

Mr. Rankin. Were they talking to each other, Marina, and Mrs. Paine, while you were there?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, they talked in Russian. And that is a difficult part. I didn't know Russian.

Then, with that, the Life representative got up and said, "Mrs. Oswald, I will call my office and see what they think about an arrangement of your life story."

So he did call the office. He closed the door and called in private. And nothing was said—in the living room.

When I say nothing was said, it was between myself and the other representative. Mrs. Paine was talking to my daughter-in-law in Russian. I was talking to my daughter-in-law in English. It was a regular general conversation, as far as I knew.

He came out from the telephone conversation and said, no, that the company would not allow him to pay for the story. What they would do—they would pay our expenses while in Dallas, and our food and expenses, hotel accommodation.

Now, they continued to hang around. And they were taking pictures continuously, all the while this was going on—the photographer, Mr. Allen was continuously taking pictures. I was awfully tired and upset. I rolled my stockings down, and the picture is in Life Magazine. And he stopped that. So I got up and said, "I am not having this invasion of privacy. I realize that I am in Mrs. Paine's home. But you are taking my picture without my consent, and a picture that I certainly don't want made public." It is the worst—with me rolling my hose. I wanted to get comfortable.

He followed Marina around in the bedroom. She was undressing June. He took pictures of everything. And Mrs. Paine was in her glory—I will say this. Mrs. Paine was very happy all these pictures were taken. And I had to go behind Marina to see that the photographers were not taking her, and they146 were taking me. And it was just a regular—the home was a living room and a hall and a bedroom and kitchen, and we were all going around in circles.

And the photographer was taking pictures, until finally I became indignant, and said, "I have had it. Now, find out what accommodations you can make for us, for my daughter-in-law and I so that we can be in Dallas to help Lee, and let me know in the morning."

However, about an hour later there was a telephone call to Mrs. Paine from a Life representative. I know by her conversation who she was talking to.

And after the conversation, I said to her, "Was that one of the Life representatives?"

The Chairman. The Commission will be in order. Mrs. Oswald, you may continue with your statement.

I am worried because Lee hasn't had an attorney. And I am talking about that, and Mrs. Paine said, "Oh, don't worry about that. I am a member of the Civil Liberties Union, and Lee will have an attorney, I can assure you."

I said to myself but when? Of course, I didn't want to push her, argue with her. But the point was if she was a member of the Union, why didn't she see Lee had an attorney then. So I wasn't too happy about that.

My daughter-in-law spoke to Mrs. Paine in Russian. "Mamma," she says. So she takes me into the bedroom and closes the door. She said, "Mamma, I show you." She opened the closet, and in the closet was a lot of books and papers. And she came out with a picture—a picture of Lee, with a gun.

Now, you must understand that I don't know what is going on on television—I came from the jailhouse and everything, so I don't know all the circumstances, what evidence they had against my son by this time. I had no way of knowing. But I say to my daughter, "To my daughter, June," anybody can own a rifle, to go hunting. You yourself probably have a rifle. So I am not connecting this with the assassination—"To my daughter, June." Because I would immediately say, and I remember—I think my son is an agent all the time—no one is going to be foolish enough if they mean to assassinate the President, or even murder someone to take a picture of themselves with that rifle, and leave that there for evidence.

So, I didn't think a thing about it. And it says "To my daughter, June." I said, "The police," meaning that if the police got that, they would use that against my son, which would be a natural way to think.

I said, "No, Marina. Put back in the book." So she put the picture back in the book. Which book it was, I do not know.

So the next day, when we are at the courthouse—this is on Saturday—she—we were sitting down, waiting to see Lee. She puts her shoe down, she says, "Mamma, picture." She had the picture folded up in her shoe.

Now, I did not see that it was the picture, but I know that it was, because she told me it was, and I could see it was folded up. It wasn't open for me to see. I said, "Marina." Just like that. So Robert came along and he says,147 "Robert" I said, "No, no Marina." I didn't want her to tell Robert about the picture. Right there, you know. That was about the picture.

Mrs. Oswald. No. Now, I have to go into this. I want to tell you about destroying the picture.

I want to start to remember—because when we leave Mrs. Paine's home, we go into another phase, where the picture comes in again. So I have to tell the—unless you want to ask me specific questions.

Mrs. Oswald. Mrs. Paine, in front of me, gave Marina $10. Now, Mrs. Paine, when I said, after the representatives left—I said, "You know, I do want to get paid for the story, because I am destitute, and here is a girl with—her husband is going to be in jail, we will need money for attorneys, with two babies."

She said, "You don't have to worry about Marina. Marina will always have a home with me, because Marina helps."

Now, Mrs. Paine speaks Russian fluently. "She helps me with my Russian language. She babysits for me and helps me with the housework, and you never have to worry about Marina. She will always have a home with me."

Now, Mr. and Mrs. Paine are separated. Mr. Paine does not live here. So it is just the two women.

So, Mrs. Paine didn't graciously do anything for Marina, as the paper stated—that Lee never did pay Mrs. Paine for room or board. Mrs. Paine owes them money. That is almost the kind of work that I do, or the airline stewardesses do, serve food and everything. Marina was earning her keep, and really should have had a salary for it—what I am trying to say, gentlemen, Mrs. Paine had Marina there to help babysit with the children, with her children—if she wanted to go running around and everything.

So actually she wasn't doing my son or Marina the favor that she claims she was doing.

But the point I am trying to stress is that she did tell me Marina would never have to worry, because Marina would have a home with her.

At this particular moment, I cannot remember anything of importance in the house. Otherwise, about the picture I have stated. And Mrs. Paine with the Life representative, and her saying that Lee would have an attorney, and Mrs. Paine giving Marina a $10 bill.

Oh, Marina told me, "Mamma, I have this money." It was money in an envelope—in the bedroom, when she showed me the picture. I said, "How much money, Marina."

Now, Mrs. Paine has stated to the Life representative that Lee and Marina were saving his pay in order to have a home for themselves for Christmas time, because they had never been in a home of their own at Christmas time—in order to celebrate Christmas. So, the hundred and some odd dollars isn't a big sum, considering that Lee paid $8 a week room in Dallas—and it has been stated by the landlady that Lee ate lunchmeat or fruit. And Lee was very, very thin when I saw him. And Lee gave his salary to his wife in order to save to have this home for Christmas.

So, that is not a lot of money to have in the house—I would not think so, because I believe Lee was earning about $50 a week. And let's say he could live for about $10 or $12. And he gave the rest of the money to his wife.

And so I reported this money to the Secret Service while we were in Six Flags—that Marina had the money. I wanted them to know. She showed me the money.

I cannot think now—I did think of the money after going back—but I cannot think of anything at this particular moment that would be of any benefit that happened in this house.

Mr. Rankin. In regard to the photograph, I will show you some photographs. Maybe you can tell me whether they are the ones that you are referring to. Here is Commission's Exhibit 134.

Mrs. Oswald.. No, sir, that is not the picture. He was holding the rifle up, and it said, "To my daughter, June, with love." He was holding the rifle up.

Mr. Rankin. Now, you were going to tell us about some further discussion of the picture you did see?

Now, so the next morning the two representatives of the Life Magazine, Mr. Allen Grant and Mr. Tommy Thompson come by at 9 o'clock with a woman, Russian interpreter, a doctor somebody. I have not been able to find this woman. I have called the universities, thinking that she was a language teacher, and I—maybe you have her name. But she is very, very important to our story.

During the night, I had decided I was going to take up their offer, because I would be besieged by reporters and everything. So why not go with the Life representatives, and let them pay my room and board and my daughter-in-law's. They came by at 9 o'clock, without calling, with this Russian interpreter. So Marina was getting dressed and getting the children dressed. He was taking pictures all the time.

Mrs. Oswald. Mrs. Paine's home. And there was no hurry, though, to leave the home, because Mrs. Paine was most anxious for the Life representatives to talk to her and get these pictures and everything—whether Marina has any part in this I don't know, because they spoke Russian, and she didn't tell me about it. But I know Mrs. Paine did.

We left with the two Life representatives. They brought us to the Hotel Adolphus in Dallas. I immediately upon entering the hotel picked up the phone and called Captain Will Fritz, to see if Marina and I could see Lee at the jailhouse.

Mrs. Oswald. Yes. And I called him from the hotel, and the man that answered the phone said he would relay my message to him, that I wanted to see if Marina and I could see Lee. I waited on the phone. He came back and said, "Yes, Mrs. Oswald, Captain Fritz said you may see Lee at 12 o'clock today."

Mrs. Oswald. This was Saturday, November 23, the morning of Saturday, November 23.

While we were there, an FBI agent, Mr. Hart Odum entered the room with another agent, and wanted Marina to accompany him to be questioned.

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, sir; Mr. Hart Odum is an FBI agent. And I said, "No, we are going to see Lee." We were all eating breakfast when he came in. I said, "No, we have been promised to see Lee. She is not going with you."

So he said, "Well, will you tell Mrs. Oswald, please"—to the interpreter, "I would like to question her and I would like her to come with me to be questioned."

I said, "It is no good. You don't need to tell the interpreter that, because my daughter-in-law is not going with you. We have been promised to see Lee. And besides Marina has testified, made her statement at the courthouse yesterday, and any further statements that Marina will make will be through counsel."

Mr. Odum said to the interpreter, "Mrs. Oswald"—to the interpreter—"will you tell Mrs. Oswald to decide what she would like to do and not listen to her mother-in-law."

149 I said, "It is no good to tell my daughter-in-law, because my daughter-in-law is not leaving here with you, Mr. Odum, without counsel."

Just then my son, Robert, entered the room, and Mr. Odum said, "Robert, we would like to take Marina and question her."

He said, "No, I am sorry, we are going to try to get lawyers for both she and Lee."

We went to the courthouse and we sat and sat, and while at the courthouse my son, Robert, was being interviewed by—I don't know whether it was Secret Service or FBI agents—in a glass enclosure. We were sitting—an office, a glass enclosed office. We were sitting on the bench right there.

So we waited quite a while. One of the men came by and said "I am sorry that we are going to be delayed in letting you see Lee, but we have picked up another suspect."

I said, to Marina, "Oh, Marina, good, another man they think maybe shoot Kennedy."

Mrs. Oswald. No, sir; I did not. He just give the information why we would be delayed. We sat out there quite a while. The police were very nice. They helped us about the baby. We went into another room for privacy, for Marina to nurse Rachel. It was 2 or 3 hours before we got to see Lee. We went upstairs and were allowed to see Lee. This was in the jail—the same place I had been from the very beginning, and we were taken upstairs. And by the way, they only issued a pass for Marina and myself, and not for Robert. And Robert was very put out, because he thought he was also going to see his brother. Whether Robert saw his brother or not, I do not know, Mr. Rankin.

Mrs. Oswald. Just a minute now. We arrived there at 12 o'clock. This would be about 4 or 4:30 in the afternoon, before we got to see Lee.

Mrs. Oswald. No. Marina and I were escorted back of the door where they had an enclosure and telephones. So Marina got on the telephone and talked to Lee in Russian. That is my handicap. I don't know what was said. And Lee seemed very severely composed and assured. He was well-beaten up. He had black eyes, and his face was all bruised and everything. But he was very calm. He smiled with his wife, and talked with her, and then I got on the phone and I said, "Honey, you are so bruised up, your face. What are they doing?"

Now, my son would not tell me they had abused him. That was a boy's way to his mother—if he was abused, and it was shown in the paper his black eyes—he wouldn't tell how he got that. He said that was done in the scuffle. So I talked and said, "Is there anything I can do to help you?"

He said, "No, Mother, everything is fine. I know my rights, and I will have an attorney. I have already requested to get in touch with Attorney Abt, I think is the name. Don't worry about a thing."

Gentlemen, you must realize this. I had heard over the television my son say, "I did not do it. I did not do it."

And a million of the other people had heard him. I say this. As a mother—I heard my son say this. But also as a citizen, if I had heard another man say, I didn't do it, I will have to believe that man, because he hasn't been—hasn't had the opportunity to present his side of the case. So here is my son. When I saw him people had said, "Did you ask him if he did it?"

No, sir. I think by now you know my temperament, gentlemen. I would not insult my son and ask him if he shot at President Kennedy. Why? Because I myself heard him say, "I didn't do it, I didn't do it."

Mrs. Oswald. One of the officers. That, sir, I don't know. He just walked in real fast while we were sitting down and said they had picked up another suspect, and it was in the paper that they had picked up another suspect at that particular time, which would have been approximately 1 o'clock that day.

Mrs. Oswald. No, sir, that is all he said and he left. He was just relaying why we would be delayed. But it was also published. I do not have the paper or the information. But I do know from the reporters, when I told my story, that part to them—they said that substantiates the newspaper story that they did pick up a suspect at that time.

Mrs. Oswald. I would say I spent about 3 or 4 minutes on the telephone, and then Marina came back to the telephone and talked with Lee. So we left. So Marina started crying. Marina says, "Mamma, I tell Lee I love Lee and Lee says he love me very much. And Lee tell me to make sure I buy shoes for June."

Now, here is a man that is accused of the murder of a President. This is the next day, or let's say about 24 hours that he has been questioned. His composure is good. And he is thinking about his young daughter needing shoes.

Now, June was wearing shoes belonging to Mrs. Paine's little girl, Marina told me—they were little red tennis shoes, and the top was worn. They were clean, and the canvas was showing by the toe part, like children wear out their toes.

I ask you this, gentlemen. If Marina had a hundred and some odd dollars in the house, why is it necessary that my son has to tell her at the jailhouse, remind her to buy shoes for his baby, for their child? Just a few dollars out of that hundred and some odd dollars would have bought shoes for this particular child.

Another way to look at this, as I stated previously—that the boy is concerned about shoes for his baby, and he is in this awful predicament. So he must feel innocent, or sure that everything is going to be all right, as he told me.

Mr. Rankin. Now, in this telephone conversation, when you talked to your son, can you explain a little bit to the Commission how that is? Was your son on the other side of a wall or something?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, sir. My son was on the other side of the wall, and then back of the wall was a door with a peephole, where an officer was.

Now, we are going to come from the door, with the peephole and the officer, to my son. Then a glass partition and then glass partitions like telephone booths. But not really inclosed—just a little separation.

Mrs. Oswald. Back and forth, that is right. That is the way we talked. And the boy was badly beat up. I have proof in the papers—his face, black eyes, all scratched up, his neck was scratched. He was badly beat up. But he assured me they were not mistreating him, that he got some of the bruises in the scuffle. As I say, the boy, if he was being mistreated, would not tell his mother that.

Mr. Rankin. And whatever Marina said to him was in Russian, and you didn't understand it?

Mrs. Oswald. No, sir, I did not understand. But I would say this, it seemed to be just an ordinary pleasant conversation. He was smiling. And she told me he said he loved her very much, she said she loved him, and told about buying the shoes for the baby. That is all she said. She did not tell me any other part of the conversation. And they talked quite a while. She talked with him twice. She talked with him the first time. I got on the phone. Then she talked to him again.

151 Mrs. Oswald. No. It was a pleasant conversation. But she did not volunteer to tell me what was said, and I did not ask her what was said.

Mrs. Oswald. So then after that we went back to the Adolphus Hotel. And upon arriving at the hotel—I am a little ahead of my story.

The police and the detectives at the Dallas jail were most courteous to Marina and I. There were hundreds of reporters out in the corridor. And we were getting ready to leave, so they said that they would take us down the back way—incidentally, the same place where my son was shot. And they had arranged for two to go down and to get a car and to bring into this basement, and take us down the back elevator, and try to avoid the reporters. And there were approximately six or seven in the elevator. When we got down there, there were just a few reporters, and they went way out of their way to elude any reporters. We were at the Adolphus Hotel as I explained to you. And instead of from the jail going straight to the Adolphus Hotel, they drove around 20 or 25 minutes time in circles in order to lose anybody who might be following Marina and I.

So, as we got to the floor of the Adolphus Hotel, we knocked on the door where we were, and no one answered. We were with two men. Immediately around the corner comes Mr. Tommy Thompson, the Life representative.

So Mr. Tommy Thompson came and they asked for his credentials. I had never even—as thorough as I am trying to be—I am trying to tell you there are some things I don't know because of the confusion—I didn't ask for the credentials. I could have been with anybody. I just assumed they were Life representatives. I had not asked. But these Dallas detectives or police, in plain clothes, asked Mr. Tommy Thompson for his credentials, and then left us in his care again.

I said, "Well, the arrangement was that we were going to stay here in the hotel for a few days, and you were going to pay expenses."

They were not interested—and to me it seems very strange that they were not interested in my conversation at the jail with my son. They did not even ask if we saw Lee. Yet they knew we left the Adolphus Hotel in order to go see Lee. But they did not even ask if we saw Lee. And I have often wondered about that.

So when I told him that we expected to stay there, he said, "Well, Mrs. Oswald, the reporters will be coming in flocks, they know where you are. Just a minute."

He got on the telephone. Mr. Allen Grant—they had a Life—the Life representatives had a room on the ninth floor where they had a lot of men working on this case, and we were on the 11th, I believe. So Mr. Allen Grant came down from the ninth floor with another man—I do not know his name—because the baby's diapers had to be changed and things of this sort. He said, "Mrs. Oswald"—they left. Tommy Thompson said, "Mrs. Oswald, what we are going to do is get you on the outskirts of town, so the reporters won't know where you are, and here is some money for your expenses in case you need anything."

Well, I took the bill, and I put it in my uniform pocket without looking at it. That may sound strange to you gentlemen, but this is confusion. I knew it was money, and I just put it in my uniform pocket.

So Mr. Allen Grant escorted my daughter-in-law and I out of the hotel, the Adolphus Hotel, and took us to the Executive Inn, which is on the outskirts of Dallas. We sat in the car. He went in and came out, then, and said, "Mrs. Oswald, I have arranged for you all to stay here for 2 or 3 days. I have to be152 back in San Francisco. Anything you want you have your cash that Mr. Tommy Thompson gave you. And he will be in touch with you."

Well, I didn't think too much of it. He escorted us with a porter up to our room.

We had two beautiful suites—two, not one—completed rooms and baths, adjoining, at the Executive Inn. And that was the last time I had seen either representative. I was stranded with a Russian girl and two babies. I didn't realize in the beginning. But then it was time for food, and I had to order food. I told Marina to stay aside and that I would let the man in. She stayed in her room. I let this man in with the food, and then I became uneasy, that he might know who we were is what I was uneasy about, because I didn't realize the danger actually Marina and I were in.

I sensed we were alone. And there I was with a Russian girl. And I didn't want anybody to know who we were, because I knew my son had been picked up.

While there, Marina—there is an ashtray on the dressing table. And Marina comes with bits of paper, and puts them in the ashtray and strikes a match to it. And this is the picture of the gun that Marina tore up into bits of paper, and struck a match to it.

Now, that didn't burn completely, because it was heavy—not cardboard—what is the name for it—a photographic picture. So the match didn't take it completely.

Mrs. Oswald. No, sir. The last time I had seen the picture was in Marina's shoe when she was trying to tell me that the picture was in her shoe. I state here now that Marina meant for me to have that picture, from the very beginning, in Mrs. Paine's home. She said—I testified before—"Mamma, you keep picture."

And then she showed it to me in the courthouse. And when I refused it, then she decided to get rid of the picture.

She tore up the picture and struck a match to it. Then I took it and flushed it down the toilet.

Mrs. Oswald. This—now, just a minute, gentlemen, because this I know is very important to me and to you, too.

We had been in the jail. This was an evening. Well, this, then, would be approximately 5:30 or 6 in the evening.

Mrs. Oswald. On Saturday, November 23. Now, I flushed the torn bits and the half-burned thing down the commode. And nothing was said. There was nothing said.

Now, Mr. Hart Odum, the same FBI agent, that insisted upon my daughter-in-law going with him from the Adolphus Hotel, knocked on the door at the Executive Inn. I had had my robe and slippers on, and I pushed the curtain aside when he knocked. He said, "This is Mr. Odum."

So, I opened the door. This is very important. I would like to not talk about it. I would like to show you what I did. This is so important.

I opened the door just a little, because I had the robe off and I didn't want anybody to come in. The door is just ajar. I am going to take my shoes off, gentlemen, because I have this worked out. This is my height. He said, "Mrs. Oswald, we would like to see Marina."

I said, "Mr. Odum, I stated yesterday you are not going to see Marina. We are awful tired."

"Mr. Odum, I am not calling my daughter. As a matter of fact, she is taking a bath."

I said, "Yes, sir." The door is ajar. This is my height. I wear bifocals, which enlarges things. And in his hand—his hand is bigger than mine—in the153 cup of his hand, like this, is a picture. And the two corners are torn off the picture. This is a very glossy black and white picture of a man's face and shoulder.

Now, Mr. Odum wasn't too tall. I need somebody else. Mr. Odum's hand with the picture—what I am trying to say—he is facing this way—showing me. So my eyes are looking straight at the picture. And I have nothing else to see but this hand and the picture, because the door is ajar. And there is nothing on the picture but a face and shoulders. There is no background or anything. So I can identify this picture amongst millions of pictures, I am so sure of it. It was a glossy black and white picture. So I said, "No, sir, believe me. I have never seen this picture in my life."

About an hour later the telephone rang, and it was Mrs. Paine. She said, "Mrs. Oswald, Lee called and he was very upset because Marina was not with me, and he asked me to get a lawyer for him, a Mr. Abt. I would like to talk to Marina."

So when she got off the telephone, I said,—Now, Marina talks in Russian, gentlemen. I said, "Marina, Mrs. Paine told me that Lee called and you were not home at Mrs. Paine, and Lee tells Mrs. Paine to get a lawyer."

And I then sensed—well, now, why isn't she answering me? This is very peculiar.

The FBI agent would have to know where we were, and Mrs. Paine would have to know where we were, because of these two Life representatives, who, I am assuming, probably went back to Mrs. Paine's home in order to get more information. And she—they would have told her where we were, because no one knew where we were. This girl and I had no protection or anything. We were sent out there with this Mr. Allen Grant, the representative. And no one knew who we were. And Mr. Hart Odum would have to know where we were through Mrs. Paine, which is a normal procedure, let's say. He might have gone to Mrs. Paine's home looking for Marina there, and Mrs. Paine might have told him we were at the Executive Inn. I will grant that.

But the point I am going to make is that the picture was tried to be shown to Marina before the telephone conversation.

Mr. Dulles. Could we get what picture this is? Is that the picture held in the hand?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, sir—the picture that is held in the hand, that the FBI agent, Mr. Hart Odum showed me.

Mrs. Oswald. No. I told Mr. Hart Odum I had never seen the man before, "Believe me, sir," and he left.

So the picture was shown—was tried—had tried to be shown to my daughter-in-law, but they were not successful.

Now, I am under the impression, since I know it was Mr. Jack Ruby's picture I saw—at the time I didn't.

Mrs. Oswald. Because I have seen his picture in the paper. Now I know it is Mr. Jack Ruby.

Mrs. Oswald. This is Saturday, November 23d. This is approximately 6:30 in the evening, that the FBI agent came. And the telephone call was later.

Now, I have no way of knowing whether Lee had permission to use the telephone. Remember, Lee is in jail.

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, sir, still on Saturday night at the Executive Inn. And that was after the picture was shown to me—she received this telephone call, and became very silent.

Now, it is now that I have done investigation of this case that I believe that the picture was meant for Marina to see, meant for Marina to see.

Mrs. Oswald. Because now it has been proven that Jack Ruby killed my son. And I think there is a connection there. Because Marina did not tell me about her conversation. And you men hold the answer whether Lee used the telephone from the jailhouse. I don't know that.

Mr. Rankin. You base that on just your own conclusion that you arrive at now, do you?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes—because of the FBI agent, Mr. Hart Odum, insistence on taking my daughter-in-law—and he being the same agent that came and showed the picture. And Mr. Ruby being the man that shot Lee—yes, these are definite conclusions.

Mr. Dulles. Do I understand correctly that Marina did not see the picture at any time?

Mrs. Oswald. That is correct, sir. But they tried awfully hard for Marina to see the picture.

Mrs. Oswald. On a Wednesday—Lee was shot on a Sunday—neither Marina nor I knew how he was shot. They kept it from us. You have to visualize this.

We were at the Six Flags with approximately 18 to 20 FBI agents, Secret Service men running in and out, a woman with a Russian girl and two sick babies, and the girl and I do not know what is going on.

Mr. Rankin. When you had gotten over to the Six Flags, you must have skipped something there—you were in the Executive Inn before.

Mrs. Oswald. Yes. I was going to make a point about letting you know why I didn't know.

So that night I was very upset and very worried. I realized that we were there alone. And we were not going to go in town, into Dallas. I wasn't going to take this Russian girl and the two babies. And the babies were all chapped. We had no diapers. We were not prepared for this. And it was hectic, gentlemen.

So all night long I am wondering how can I get in touch with Robert, what can I do.

And I was a little suspicious of Mrs. Paine. I was suspicious of Mrs. Paine from the time I entered her home.

Mrs. Oswald. So I signed for the food. I called the operator and I asked the operator what name the room was registered under. She said, "Well, this is an unusual request. Don't you know what room—what name?"

155 I said, "Frankly, I don't. We are three couples. I don't know which name they used."

So she told me that the room was registered under Mrs. Allen Grant, which is the name of the Life representative. So I charged and signed. And they would have that for proof—Mrs. Allen Grant, on the food.

Mrs. Oswald. I just said that to the operator, because I had to give her a reason why I didn't know which name the room was registered under.

So I just wanted to elaborate a little bit—let her know. I didn't want to give my name. Because I was by this time a little concerned about the situation.

During the night I thought—"We are in a position here, I am in a position with a Russian girl and two babies, and I just don't know what to do."

I had no contact with Robert. Robert was trying to get an attorney. And I didn't know if Robert knew where we were. And I did not want to call Mrs. Paine. I wanted to stay clear of Mrs. Paine.

Now, I have to go back a little bit. But, believe me, gentlemen, the story will get together for you to understand.

About 1 month prior to this, there was an ad in a Fort Worth paper that the public library was going to have language lessons, and one was Russian classes.

Well, I then, as I told you—I was employed for the 3 to 11 shift. And I was getting a day off. And this would have been a steady job because this woman was not that sick, just an invalid.

So I decided on my day off I wanted to do something. So I decided I would call up about it, and on my day off—make Tuesday my day off and take up Russian in case—because I had always hoped in my heart that Marina and Lee would contact me some day. After all, I am a mother first.

Now, you must remember—I did not know that he knew Marina and Lee. This is public notice for the Russian language.

I went to the second class. My car broke down just one block from the library, and I had to have it towed, and I went to the class. And Mr. Peter Gregory was there, and several of the women waiting for his classes to start. I said I don't imagine I will learn anything, because my car has broken down and I am pretty upset. And Mr. Gregory said, "Where do you live, Mrs. Oswald? Maybe I could help you and take you home." And the other couple said, "We would be happy."

And I said I live in Arlington Heights. And he happens to live about 10 blocks away.

The point I am going to make is this: Mr. Peter Gregory is the engineer who knew my son Robert, who was friends with Lee and Marina. Yet when I registered for a class, and the librarian had come back down before the class, and read off the names of the people that were going to take the Spanish lesson, isn't it peculiar that Mr. Gregory did not remember me as the mother of Lee—didn't acknowledge me as the mother of Lee? I find that very peculiar.

So we were talking about the Russian language, that is is very hard to learn. And I said, "I am sure I will never master it." And I thought I think I will tell him why I want to take lessons is because of my Russian daughter-in-law, and my son speaks Russian. But I didn't do it.

I am going to give and take. Maybe he didn't connect me. But it would seem very odd—Mrs. Marguerite Oswald was the name—that he didn't connect as Marina's mother-in-law and Lee's mother, when he was such a friend with them.

156 Mrs. Oswald. Russian lessons at the public library in Fort Worth, Tex., and Mr. Gregory was the teacher.

Mrs. Oswald. I do not have this information. But I can get it for you from the public library, because there was a public notice in the paper.

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, it was just right before the assassination. I had taken two lessons. Yes, I had taken two lessons, and then I didn't go for the third lesson, because this was on a Friday—the lessons were on a Tuesday. So I had taken two lessons, the two Tuesdays prior to the assassination.

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, sir. Two Tuesdays before, and then my next lesson would have been the Tuesday after the Friday of the assassination.

Now, believe me, gentlemen—and I will swear again, if you want me to—nothing was said about Mr. Gregory and Marina being friends. But I do have a guardian angel. And, as I go along, some of the things I know have been from this guardian angel.

I thought of calling Mr. Peter Gregory. I have no friends in Fort Worth. I never—I live a very lonely life. I am not lonely. But I live to myself. I am kept very busy. I had my work, 24 hour duty. So really I have no friends. And because of Lee's defection, I didn't make any new friends.

So I am racking my mind who can I call for help. And I think of Mr. Peter Gregory. So I call Mr. Peter Gregory at 6:30 in the morning, Sunday, the 24th—Sunday morning the 24th.

And I didn't want the hotel operator to know who I was. So I gave a fictitious name. He said, "I am sorry,"—I said, "I can't tell you who I am, Mr. Gregory."

Marina, when I said, "Marina, we need help, honey. I am going to call a Mr. Gregory."

"Oh, Mama, I know Mr. Gregory, Lee know Mr. Gregory, the man at the library that gives Russian lessons."

So I called Mr. Gregory. I said, "Mr. Gregory, I won't say who I am, but you know my son and you know my daughter-in-law, and I am in trouble, sir. I am over here."

I said, "Yes sir, this is Mrs. Oswald. We are at the Executive Inn in Dallas, stranded. And do you know of anyone who would give my daughter-in-law and I a home, and put us up for the time that this is going on, so we can be near Lee at the courthouse? I need help. Mr. Gregory."

He said, "Mrs. Oswald, what is your room number? I will help you. Hold still. Help will be coming."

At 11:30 Sunday, November 23d, my son Robert and Mr. Gregory came to the Executive Inn, all excited. We had diapers strung all over the place. My uniform was washed. I had no clothes with me.

I am not one to be told what to do, and you gentlemen know that by this time. I said, "What's your hurry? We have the diapers and all. I want to tell you what happened."

Mr. Gregory said, "Mrs. Oswald, will you listen and get things together. We have to get you out of here."

I said, "That is all we have been doing since yesterday, running from one place to the other. Give us just a minute. We are coming, but we have to pack things."

I said, "I want you to know how we got here. I was shown a picture of a man last night. And Mrs. Paine called and said that Lee called."

So Mr. Gregory and Robert knew about the things I told you. I told him that while I am gathering up the things.

Now, here is another Godsend. We watched the television, Marina and I. She watched more than I did. We were very busy, Mr. Rankin. The babies had diarrhea and everything. I was very busy with the babies and the Russian girl. And just like at the end of the Six Flags, we were just getting snatches of it. But Marina wanted to know, "Mama, I want see Lee." She was hoping Lee would come on the picture, like he did. So this morning, Sunday morning, I said, "Oh, honey, let's turn the television off. The same thing over and over."

And I turned the television off. So Marina and I did not see what happened to my son.

Mr. Rankin. Now, before you leave that, what did Robert say about the story about the picture, when you told him that? Did he say anything?

Mrs. Oswald. No. He and Mr. Gregory both didn't want to listen to me. I told them, but they didn't want to hear my story. They wanted to get us out of here.

Mrs. Oswald. No, sir, not that I can recall. And I don't believe they did. They didn't want to hear what I had to say. They kept fussing at me and saying "Mother, stop talking. Hurry up, we have got to get you out of here."

I kept saying, "All we have been doing is run from one place to the other. The diapers are wet."

Robert went downstairs to pay the bill, and that is when I gave Robert the money, and it was a $50 bill that the Life representative had given to me. They gave me some money. I took it out——

Mrs. Oswald. The first time I looked at it, sir. I charged the food, and I had no need for money. Wait a minute—I am wrong. Yes.

Mrs. Oswald. Just a minute, if you let me explain. I just said I was wrong. The first time—it was Puerto Rican that brought the dinner in. We needed baby lotion for the baby. And then I took the bill out and I saw it was a $50 bill, because he went to the drug store—I gave him the $50 bill, this Puerto158 Rican, that brought the food in—the first food we had—to go to the drug store and pay for the necessities that Marina and I needed—really it was for the baby, the lotion and everything. And he came back and the drug store was closed—it was on a Sunday. And so I did know about the $50 bill before this time.

And then when Robert came, I gave Robert the $50 bill and he went downstairs to pay the bill.

Now, the representatives had not paid the bill. Robert used the $50 to pay the bill. The bill was not paid. So we were really stranded. Those men left two women stranded.

Mrs. Oswald. In my uniform pocket, because that was all the clothes I had. I kept it in my pocket.

Mrs. Oswald. I naturally took it out of my pocket to wash my uniform, because I stated I gave Robert the $50 bill to pay the hotel. But that was all the clothes I had. You have to visualize that all of this is really rush business. We are doing all this in a hurry.

So I didn't even put it in my pocketbook. And I would not be the type to put it in my pocketbook, because it is a $50 bill and all the money I have to get out of the hotel—I don't know if I am going to get help—so I want to keep it on my person, just like I keep my important papers right now on my person.

I took it out of my pocket to wash the uniform, I know. This can be proven by the bellhop who brought the food. And he went to the drug store, and the drug store was closed on Sunday. And we did not get the lotion. And I gave him the $50 bill to buy the things with.

Mrs. Oswald. Nothing was said about the bill. I didn't know then that the representatives had not paid the bill. Robert took the $50 and checked us out. Then the Secret Service——

Mrs. Oswald. Yes. Since then I have called Robert and Robert said the amount of the bill was 40-some-odd dollars—about $48, I believe. That is what Robert told me. I have no way of knowing, otherwise than what Robert told me.

And I would think so. If I remember correctly the rooms were $17.50. I told you before that they put us in exclusive suites, and two. And the rooms were $17.50. And we had some meals. So that would make it about 40-some-odd dollars.

Mrs. Oswald. Then Robert got in a car with Secret Service, and then Marina and I and Mr. Gregory were in another car, with two Secret Service agents in the front.

Mrs. Oswald. Here comes me again. They wanted to take us—as soon as we got in the car Mr. Gregory says, "We are taking you to Robert's mother-in-law's house."

Now, they live out of Boyd, Tex., in the country. Boyd, Tex., is a little bit of country town. But they live in a little farm house. They are dairy people—Robert's in-laws. And they wanted to take us there, which would have been approximately 45 miles from Dallas.

And I said, "No, you are not taking me out in the sticks, in the country. I want to be in Dallas where I can help Lee."

"Well, for security reasons, this is the best place. Nobody would ever find it."

I said, "Security reasons? You can give security for me in a hotel room in town. I am not going out in this little country town. I want to be in Dallas where I can help Lee."

159 And so I am not being well liked, because all the arrangements was made, that we were going to go to this little farm house. But I would not go.

I could not survive if I was 40 or 50 miles away and my son was picked up as a murderer. I had to be right there in Dallas.

Mrs. Oswald. They kept it from us—I guess being women. Marina and I did not even know he was shot.

Mrs. Oswald. No, sir; nothing was said. They wanted us for security reasons——

Mrs. Oswald. I know Lee was shot. But at this time I am telling you I don't know this.

This has to go in sequence, sir. Lee was shot, or else we wouldn't have had all these Secret Service men around. But I know then after that Lee was shot. Not now—I do not know this.

Mrs. Oswald. Not until about 3 days later. That is what I was telling you about Six Flags. I am trying to explain to you why I don't know these things is because we did not sit down and watch television and read papers. Marina and I—I had two sick babies there. There was a doctor coming in twice a day. I was a very busy woman. And the men were not telling us anything. They were not interested in us.

Mr. Rankin. Now, after you told them that you wanted to stay in a hotel, you could be protected there, what happened?

Mrs. Oswald. Then, of course, nothing was said that they were going to give me my way. But we needed clothes—Marina and the baby needed clothes. So then they decided that they should go to Irving, through my suggestion and so on, and pick up clothes for Marina and the baby, because we were short on diapers. So they are going to Irving.

We got to Irving. There is police cars all around. So that is why I feel sure my son was shot.

Mrs. Oswald. I would think—now, this is just hearsay. But I would think it is about 12 to 15 or 18 miles.

When we reached there, they brought us to the chief of police's home. And there were cars all around.

Mrs. Oswald. It came over—I thought he had the radio in the car, Secret Serviceman, and he had talked to someone. This was all set up, sir, and I can prove to you. They didn't want us to know. They are now telling us this, Marina and I.

So Marina went into the chief of police's at Irving home, to call Mrs. Paine, to get the diapers and things ready. They decided and told us, with me in the car and Marina, that it would not be a good thing for us to go to Mrs. Paine's home and get these things, that Marina should go in the chief of police's home and call and tell Mrs. Paine what she wanted.

So I am sitting in the car with the agent. Marina is in the home now—remember.

So something comes over the mike, and the Secret Service agent says, "Do not repeat. Do not repeat."

Mrs. Oswald. This is the agent that was also now sent to me to protect me in Fort Worth, Tex.—Mr. Mike Howard, who was the agent that rode in the car with President Johnson, who was the agent that was at Six Flags, that was in charge, who was the agent that was assigned to protect Baine Johnson at the dormitory. He is also the same agent that was sent to protect me in Fort Worth, Tex.

Mr. Rankin. Now, who was the other agent that was with you that day? Was there another Secret Service agent with you?

Mrs. Oswald. He went into the home—he escorted Marina into the chief of police's home, and I do not know his name. And he is not the other agent that I want to know the name of.

Mr. Rankin. Now, about what time on that Sunday did you learn of your son's death?

Mrs. Oswald. Well, now, here is your time element. I said Robert and Mr. Gregory and the Secret Service were there approximately from 11:30. And I knew nothing about the shooting. And then we had to go to Irving and everything. Then they told us Lee was shot. So now we are bringing up to the time—it all fits in—which was 1 o'clock or 1:30.

As a matter of fact, then when I got the news, I went into the home, and I said, "Marina, our boy is gone."

We both cried. And they were all watching the sequence on television. The television was turned to the back, where Marina and I could not see it. They sat us on the sofa, and his wife gave us coffee. And the back of the television was to us. And the men and all, a lot of men were looking at the television. It probably just happened, because the man said, "Do not repeat." And I insisted.

And then it later came out in the paper that—a story about the chief of police, how it was set up for the women, that we should not know.

We were to go to his house. There was a story about that from this chief of police of Irving.

All of my papers were taken out of my home by Secret Service men. While at Six Flags, they saved the papers for me. We would not let the maids take the papers. And I brought all of those papers from the Six Flags, from the very beginning, to my home in Fort Worth, Tex. And every piece of paper out of my home was taken. So I did not—believe me, gentlemen, this seems strange, but it was 2 weeks later before I saw the picture of the way my son was shot.

Mr. Blair Justice of the Star Telegram gave me the back issues of papers. And it wasn't until then that I actually knew the tragedy, how my son was shot. Because they took all the papers, all my clippings and everything. I was left stranded, without any papers. And until Mr. Blair Justice brought me these161 back issues, some 2 weeks later, was the first time that I saw exactly the tragic way my son was shot.

Mrs. Oswald. No. We didn't know. I was with Marina at the Executive Inn from the 22d until the shooting, the 24th—as I told you.

Then we left. And from the 24th to the 28th, at the Inn of the Six Flags, the agents and my son kept this from us. We did not know. We knew Lee was shot and dead. But we didn't know how. We didn't get to read a paper or watch television. We just had snatches of the television.

Mr. Rankin. Well, when you both learned that he was shot on that Sunday afternoon, did you and Marina say anything to each other?

Immediately I said, "I want to see Lee." And Marina said, "I want see Lee, too."

And the chief of police and Mr. Gregory said, "Well, it would be better to wait until he was at the funeral home and fixed up."

They led us to believe that now they have taught her to do like this. But Marina has always spoken like that. I have acted as an interpreter for her, as I stated before, for an FBI agent. And she understood me. And he was satisfied that he didn't need an interpreter.

They didn't want us to see Lee, from the ugliness of it evidently. But I insisted, and so did Marina. So they could not do anything about it with the two women. So they decided to pacify us.

We got in the car. On the way in the car they are trying to get us to change our minds. And he said, Mr. Mike Howard—he was driving the car—"Mrs. Oswald for security reasons it would be much better if you would wait until later on to see Lee because this is a big thing."

I said, "For security reasons I want you to know that I am an American citizen, and even though I am poor I have as much right as any other human being, and Mrs. Kennedy was escorted to the hospital to see her husband. And I insist upon being escorted, and enough security to take me to the hospital to see my son."

"I want you to know when we get there we will not be able to protect you. Our security measures end right there. The police will then have you under protection. We cannot protect you."

I said, "That is fine. If I am to die, I will die that way. But I am going to see my son."

Mr. Gregory says—and in the most awful tone of voice, I will always remember this—remember, gentlemen, my son has been accused, I have just lost a son.

He said, "Mrs. Oswald, you are being so selfish. You are endangering this girl's life, and the life of these two children."

I want to elaborate on this. He is not thinking about me. He is thinking about the Russian girl. I am going to bring this over and over—that these Russian people are always considering this Russian girl. He snapped at me.

I said, "Mr. Gregory, I am not talking for my daughter-in-law. She can do what she wants. I am saying I want to see my son."

And so they brought us to the hospital. And Marina said, "I too want to see Lee."

So then they did leave us at the entrance of the hospital, the Secret Service men, and then the police took over. We were escorted by the police in the hospital.

Mrs. Oswald. Well, I would not think it would be more than between 2 and 3 o'clock.

Mrs. Oswald. Then Mr. Perry, the doctor, came down. We were escorted into a room. And he came in. He said, "Now, you know the Texas law is that we have to have an autopsy on a body."

And he said, "Now, I will do whatever you ladies wish. I understand that you wish to see the body. However, I will say this. It will not be pleasant. All the blood has drained from him, and it would be much better if you would see him after he was fixed up."

Marina—as I am trying to say, she understands English—she said, "I want to see Lee, too." So she knew what the doctor was saying.

We were escorted upstairs into a room. They said it was a morgue, but it wasn't. Lee's body was on a hospital bed, I would say, or a table—a table like you take into an operating room. And there were a lot of policemen standing around, guarding the body. And, of course, his face was showing. And Marina went first. She opened his eyelids. Now, to me—I am a nurse, and I don't think I could have done that. This is a very, very strong girl, that she can open a dead man's eyelids. And she says, "He cry. He eye wet." To the doctor. And the doctor said, "Yes."

Well, I know that the fluid leaves, and you do have moisture. So I didn't even touch Lee. I just wanted to see that it was my son.

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, sir. That is why I wanted to see the body. I wanted to make sure it was my son.

So while leaving the room, I said to the police—"I think some day you will hang your heads in shame."

I said, "I happen to know, and know some facts, that maybe this is the unsung hero of this episode. And I, as his mother, intend to provide this if I can."

Then we were escorted into a room downstairs, and introduced to the chaplain. I have asked several reporters to give me the chaplain's name, because I wanted to have all this information for you. But you have to realize I just knew Thursday. And I have three times as many papers as I have here. So it has been a chore for me to do all of this. But that is easy to find out—the name of the chaplain at Parkland Hospital. So I asked to speak to the chaplain in private. So I spoke to the chaplain in private, and I told him that I thought my son was an agent, and that I wanted him to talk to Robert. Robert does not listen to me, never has, and I have had very, very little conversation with Robert, ever since Robert has joined the Marines, because of the way our life has intervened.

Mrs. Oswald. No, sir, but this is what I told the chaplain. No—I am always thinking of my country, the security of my country before I would say anything like that.

And I told you why I told the FBI men, because of the money involved, and I didn't know how the public would take this, because they helped a Marxist.

So I didn't tell him. But I did say I wanted him to talk to Robert, because we financially were in very poor straits. And then I wanted my son buried in the Arlington Cemetery.

Now, gentlemen, I didn't know that President Kennedy was going to be buried in Arlington Cemetery. All I know is that my son is an agent, and that he deserves to be buried in Arlington Cemetery. So I talked to the chaplain about this. I went into quite detail about this. I asked him if he would talk to Robert, because when I talked to Robert about it, as soon as I started to say something he would say, "Oh, Mother, forget it."

163 So I asked the chaplain to talk to Robert about Lee being buried in the Arlington Cemetery.

Mrs. Oswald. No, sir. But he did call Robert in. We were getting ready. The police were getting ready to escort us out of his office, and he said, "If you don't mind, I would like to talk to Robert Oswald just a minute."

So he brought Robert into the room he had taken me, and stayed in there a little while with Robert. So I feel sure that the chaplain relayed my message to him, because we were getting ready to leave, and he asked the police if he could talk to Robert.

Mrs. Oswald. No, sir, Robert says nothing. I have tried to contact Robert for important matters, and Robert will not talk.

Lee was left handed. Lee wrote left handed and ate right handed. And I wanted to know if Lee shot left handed. Because on Lee's leaves, as I stated, they live out in the country, and Robert goes squirrel hunting, and all kinds of hunting. And on leaves from the Marines, Lee has gone out to this farmhouse, to Robert's family house, and he and his brother have gone squirrel hunting. And so Robert would know if Lee shot left handed, and he would not give me the information, gentlemen.

I write left handed, but I do everything else with my right hand. But Lee was left handed.

Mrs. Oswald. That I do not remember, Mr. Rankin. No—I am the left handed one. I would say no.

Now, there is another story. And we have stories galore, believe me—with documents and everything.

A gun will be involved in this story, that Lee had bought. But I don't want to confuse the committee. That is another part that we will have to go into, that I will have to lead up to. The only way I can do this and not forget things is to do the way I am doing it. And if you have any questions, if you feel the story I have told so far—I would like to know, myself, if I have forgotten anything.

It is awfully hard for me to remember everything. If you want to question me, I am more than happy, if I know the facts, to give them to you.

Mr. Rankin. You have never told us about the Walker matter. Did you know something about that?

Mrs. Oswald. I didn't know about that until it came out in the paper. But I have a story on that.

Mr. Rankin. You want to finish this incident about the gun you are talking about?

164 Mrs. Oswald. I got to the point. I finished this story, really, don't you think—about the gun?

The Chairman. Has anything happened since that, that you care to call to our attention, things that you know about?

Mrs. Oswald. On the particular story that I have said this morning—you mean of Lee?

Representative Ford. Where did you go after the Parkland Hospital? What happened then?

After the Parkland Hospital, then this Mike Howard said, "Well, what we will do, we have a place, and this is where we will take them."

And they took us to the Inn of the Six Flags, which is on the outskirts of Arlington, Tex. They took us there.

And I am assuming that it is a Secret Service hideout or something, because they had made no arrangements or anything. We just were welcomed right in the Inn. They knew where to go.

Mrs. Oswald. Well, now, Mr. Rankin, that is so important—if we are going to recess, I am going to ask not to start that story, because that is a very long, important story to this Commission.

Mrs. Oswald. Well, it is in between Dallas and Fort Worth, Tex. It is near Arlington, Tex.

Afternoon Session
TESTIMONY OF MRS. MARGUERITE OSWALD RESUMED

The Chairman. The Commission will be in order. Mrs. Oswald, you may continue with your statement.

Mrs. Oswald. On the way leaving, I remarked to Mr. Doyle that I had forgotten one very important factor in the story.

I had in Mrs. Paine's home, when Marina closed the door, and I was in the room—before she showed me the picture—she told me at the police station that they had showed her Lee's gun and asked her if that was Lee's gun, and she said she didn't know, that Lee had a gun, but she could not say whether that was Lee's gun or not. But that she knew that Lee had a gun.

Mrs. Oswald. This was in Mrs. Paine's home the night of November 22, when we came from the jail. She told me that she told the police. I am going to explain, because I don't want to be put in why I didn't say it.

Mr. Mark Lane had hoped to come before the Commission, and he wanted to ask me two questions. He didn't say what the questions were. But I know the affidavit presented to the Warren Commission passed on that. And so that is why I had put that particular thing off my mind, thinking Mr. Lane would bring it up. But I immediately told Mr. Doyle when I left, that Mr. Lane not being here I should have made that statement.

Mrs. Oswald. No—the gun. The police showed Marina a gun—showed Marina a gun, and asked Marina if that was Lee's gun, because Marina had testified at the police station, she told me that Lee had a gun in Mrs. Paine's165 garage, and this was the gun that was presumably used to assassinate the President, that the police had and showed it to Marina, and asked Marina if that was Lee's gun that was in the garage. She said she didn't know—that Lee had a gun in the garage, but she did not know whether that was the gun or not.

Mrs. Oswald. No, sir—when she said that, that was it. Any comments—as I said before—that was it.

Mr. Rankin. Well, you had gotten to the Six Flags, and you had heard about your son being killed. And then you had gotten to the Parkland Hospital.

Mrs. Oswald. And then we got to the chief of police's home in Irving. And we finished that. So now we are at the Six Flags.

I was never questioned by the Secret Service or the FBI at Six Flags. My son, in my presence, was questioned and taped, and Marina was continuously questioned and taped. But I have never been questioned.

I had all the papers from the State Department, and all of my research from Lee's I say so-called defection. And I wanted them to have them. All the papers were at home.

I told them I thought I could save a lot of manpower, while they were getting the original papers, because I know that each department in the State Department had a reference on Lee, and I had the whole thing condensed, and by them having my papers, they could get the picture. They were not interested in any papers I had. They were not interested.

I insisted so much that they talked to me, because I had all this—that Mr. Mike Howard finally agreed—not 22d, though.

Mrs. Oswald. That is the two FBI agents, Mr. Brown, questioned me in the office. But all they wanted to know is how did I know my son was an agent, and how did I know that he had the money from the State Department. And I told them Congressman Wright knew, and that they would investigate Congressman Wright. That was a very short questioning. I mean I explained that before. I told them I wanted to talk to the FBI, and I did. And it was the two Mr. Browns, and there were two other men.

Mrs. Oswald. Mike Howard? Mike Howard was toward the end, because I was so persistent in them talking to me, that finally he decided he would put me on tape. But I do not consider this questioning. It was the date of the funeral—I remember now.

Mrs. Oswald. Was that the day of the funeral? If this was the day of the funeral—I can tell you why. He decided he would put me on tape. So I started to tell him about my having the papers, and Lee's defection. And then Robert came out of the room and was crying bitterly. I saw Robert crying.

You have to understand this. As a family, we separated—not maybe for any particular reason, it is just the way we live. I am not a mother that has a home that the children can come to and feed them and so on. I am a working mother. I do 24-hour duty. So I am not that type mother, where I am a housewife with money, that the children have a home to come to.

So I said to Mike Howard, "I would like Robert to hear this. Maybe he will learn something." Because Robert never did want to know about my trip to Washington. He doesn't know. Robert never was interested in anything. Lee did not want to know about my trip to Washington. So I thought well now this is an opportunity, since the tragedy has happened, for Mr. Robert166 Oswald to know some of these things that his mother has known all of these years.

Then Robert had a phone call and he came out of the room, and he was crying bitterly. So I ended the tape—I would say I talked approximately 10 minutes. I ended the tape saying, "I'm sorry, but my thoughts have left me, because my son is crying."

I thought for a moment that Robert was crying because of what I was saying, and he was sorry that he had not listened to me before, because I tried to tell him about the defection and my trip to Washington. But Robert was crying because he received a telephone call that we could not get a minister at my son's grave.

They had three ministers that refused to come to the ceremony at my son's grave—for church. And that is why Robert was crying bitterly. So that ended the testimony. That little while I testified, that ended it.

Mr. Rankin. Now, that questioning was a question and answer. You were questioned by the FBI agent, Mr. Howard——

Mrs. Oswald. I don't recall him asking any questions. It could be. But I frankly do not recall him asking any questions. But it was a very short session. And that is the way I ended the tape. I said, "My thoughts have left me because I see my son crying bitterly."

That is the way I ended the tape. And it was a very short tape. I do not remember him questioning me. I think I started to tell my story. And that is the only time.

It was from my persistence that I got on tape just that little while. They did not want to hear anything from me.

Mr. Rankin. You don't think, then, that at that time there were questions and answers for about 28 pages taken from you?

Mrs. Oswald. From me—no, sir. Definitely not. If they have that, what they have is my talking, like I said, when I saw on television. They said—they were showing Lee's gun. And I was not watching television—I am getting snatches of it, and I said, "Now, how can they say, even though it is Lee's gun, that Lee shot the President. Even being his gun doesn't mean that he shot the President. Someone could have framed him."

If they have 28 pages of that, they have me doing that kind of talking, and had the room bugged, or whatever you want to say. But no, sir, I did not sit and testify. I swear before God 10 times I never have. And that is the point that has bothered me.

Even before Lee's defection no one came along to the house. I called Mr. John Fain in the FBI myself to make friends with him. If they have 20 pages of testimony—that is when they got it, my talking. They got it with a tape recorder going. But I did not, no, sir.

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, that ended the interview with Mr. Howard, because Robert was crying. I was not consulted. I want you to know this, too. I was not consulted about the graveyard services or any part of my son's funeral.

What I know—when my son was going to be buried—it was approximately 1 hour before the time for my son to be buried. My son Robert knew.

Mrs. Oswald. I do not know. And I am assuming that she was. You see, Mr. Gregory taught Russian to Marina. And I believe Marina might have been consulted. But I do not know whether she was consulted or not. But I was not consulted. And since then—we will go on to the story. They have put a marker on the grave. I have not been consulted. I have found out my son is encased in cement, and I did not know anything about it until I investigated and asked the man at the cemetery.

167 They did not consult me about anything, never have. I want that made clear—because that is the part I cannot understand.

Mr. Rankin. You don't know whether the laws of Texas give the widow the right to say what shall be done?

Mrs. Oswald. Well, naturally, she is his wife, and I am just the mother. But from a moral standpoint, what are they doing to me? Law and right—but from a moral standpoint, I should go out to the graveyard and see a marker? I should find out from strangers that my son is now in a concrete vault?

Mrs. Oswald. Now, I was not consulted. Had Robert asked me—they are Lutheran, we are raised Lutherans. I have no church affiliation. I have learned since my trouble that my heart is my church. I am not talking against the church. But I go to church all day long, I meditate. And my work requires that I don't go to church. I am working on Sunday most of the time, taking care of the sick, and the people that go to church, that I work for, the families, have never once said, "Well, I will stay home and take care of my mother and let you go to church, Mrs. Oswald, today."

So that is why—I have my own church. And sometimes I think it is better than a wooden structure. Because these same people that expect me to work on Sunday, while they go to church, and go to church on Wednesday night—I don't consider them as good a Christian as I am—I am sorry.

Well—I would not have let Robert be so upset trying to get a Lutheran minister. If he could not get a Lutheran minister, I would have called upon another minister, because there would have been many, many ministers of many denominations that would have been happy to come and help the sorrowing family.

Well, a Reverend French from Dallas came out to Six Flags and we sat on the sofa.

Reverend French was in the center, I and Robert on the side. And Robert was crying bitterly and talking to Reverend French and trying to get him to let Lee's body go to church. And he was quoting why he could not.

So then I intervened and said, "Well, if Lee is a lost sheep, and that is why you don't want him to go to church, he is the one that should go into church. The good people do not need to go to church. Let's say he is called a murderer. It is the murderers and all we should be concerned about".

And that agent—I am going ahead of my story a little bit—that man right here——

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, sir. I do not know his name. The man had the decency to stay at the far end of the room, near the entrance door, while the minister and myself and Robert were sitting on the sofa. And when I said to the minister about the lost sheep, this agent, who I will have a much longer story to talk about, left the group and came and sat on the other sofa—there were two sofas and a cocktail table—and he said, "Mrs. Oswald, be quiet. You are making matters worse."

This Mr. French, Reverend French, agreed that we would have chapel services, that he could not take the body into the church. And we compromised for chapel services.

However, when we arrived at the graveyard, we went to the chapel. There is the body being brought into the chapel. There is another picture. Here is another picture of the chapel.

Mrs. Oswald. And the chapel was empty. My son's body had been brought into the chapel, but Reverend French did not show up. And because there was a time for the funeral, the Star Telegram reporters and the police,168 as you see in the picture, escorted my son's body from the chapel and put it at the grave site. And when we went to the cemetery, we went directly to the chapel, because we were promised to have chapel services. And the chapel was empty. My son's body was not in it. Robert cried bitterly.

We will have the reporter identify this photograph that you just referred to, where the FBI agent is in the lefthand corner.

(The photograph referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 165 for identification.)

Mr. Rankin. And the FBI agent you refer to is in the upper lefthand corner of that exhibit.

Mrs. Oswald. That's right. And this is the other FBI agent, Mr. Mike Howard, who is going to be involved quite a bit. He is the one that was taking care of Baine Johnson. He is the one that they have now sent to protect me in Fort Worth. He was the lead man at Six Flags.

Representative Ford. That was the point I wanted to make, because she had said he was an FBI agent.

Mrs. Oswald. Yes—please interrupt. It is awful hard for me to remember and say things. So I appreciate you doing that. It is a long story. And I have many stories, gentlemen. I have many stories that I am sure you do not have.

Mr. Rankin. Mrs. Oswald, I'll ask the reporter to mark the other picture with the chapel and the casket as Exhibit 166.

(The photograph referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 166 for identification.)

Mr. Rankin. Can you tell us if Exhibit 166 is a photograph showing the removing of the casket?

Mrs. Oswald. The way the men are coming this way, they are leaving the chapel. That is the way I would assume. They are leaving the chapel. But the body was not at the chapel. What an awful thing we went through, gentlemen.

Mr. Rankin. We offer in evidence Exhibits 165 and 166, and ask to substitute copies.

(The documents heretofore marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 165 and 166 were received in evidence.)

Mr. Rankin. Mr. Reporter, I will ask you to mark the picture of the chapel with the casket apparently going in as Exhibit 167.

(The photograph referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 167 for identification.)

Mr. Rankin. And the picture of the chapel and the casket being placed on a carrier in front of it, as Exhibit 168.

(The photograph referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 168 for identification.)

Mr. Rankin. Mrs. Oswald, do you recall that Exhibit 167 is the picture of them taking the casket into the chapel?

Mr. Rankin. And Exhibit 168 is apparently a picture in front of the chapel where they are putting the casket on a carrier?

Mr. Rankin. We offer in evidence Exhibits 167 and 168 and ask leave to substitute copies.

(The photographs previously marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 167 and 168 for identification were received in evidence.)

Mrs. Oswald. Now, I don't remember if I stated while at Six Flags that169 this particular agent identified as being to the left of the picture, while the television was on continuously—I have stated before I never did sit down and watch it, because we were quite busy. And this was published in the Star Telegram by Mr. Blair Justice, and also on the radio.

He was very, very rude to me. Anything that I said, he snapped. And I took it for quite a while. At this particular time that they showed the gun on television, I said, "How can they say Lee shot the President? Even though they would prove it is his gun doesn't mean he used it—nobody saw him use it."

I then walked over to Mr. Mike Howard and I said, "What's wrong with that agent? That agent is about to crack. All he has done is taunt me ever since I have been here."

He said, "Mrs. Oswald, he was personal body guard to Mrs. Kennedy for 30 months and maybe he has a little opinion against you."

Now, there was another instance with this same agent. He followed Marina around continuously. I'm going to make this plain. He followed Marina around continuously. The pictures will always show him by Marina.

We were in the bedroom, and he was in the bedroom. And we were getting ready for the funeral.

Marina was very unhappy with the dress—they bought her two dresses. "Mama, too long." "Mama, no fit." And it looked lovely on her. You can see I know how to dress properly. I am in the business world as merchandise manager. And the dress looked lovely on Marina. But she was not happy with it.

I said, "Oh, honey, put your coat on, we are going to Lee's funeral. It will be all right."

I am trying to impress upon you that Marina understands English, and has always talked broken English.

Now, this agent was in the room and Robert was on the telephone. That is why he was allowed in the bedroom.

While Marina was complaining about her dress, my little grandbaby, 2 years old—and she is a very precious little baby, they are good children—was standing by her mother. And Marina was very nervous by this time. She was not happy with the dress. And Marina was combing her hair. She took the comb and she hit June on the head. I said, "Marina, don't do that." And this agent—I wish I knew his name—snapped at me and said, "Mrs. Oswald, you let her alone." I said, "Don't tell me what to say to my daughter-in-law when she was hitting my grandbaby on the head with a comb" in front of Robert Oswald.

Mr. Rankin. Are you saying that the agent did anything improper, as far as Marina was concerned?

Mr. Rankin. Was there any improper relationship between them, as far as you know?

Mrs. Oswald. No. I am saying—and I am going to say it as strongly as I can—that I—and I have stated this from the beginning—that I think our trouble in this is in our own Government. And I suspect these two agents of conspiracy with my daughter-in-law in this plot.

Mrs. Oswald. With Marina and Mrs. Paine—the two women. Lee was set up, and it is quite possible these two Secret Service men are involved.

Mrs. Oswald. Mr. Mike Howard and the man that I did not—did not know the name, the man in the picture to the left. I have reason to think so because I was at Six Flags and these are just some instances that happened—I have much more stories to tell you of my conclusions. I am not a detective, and I170 don't say it is the answer to it. But I must tell you what I think, because I am the only one that has this information.

Mr. Rankin. What kind of a conspiracy are you describing that these men are engaged in?

Mr. Rankin. You think that two Secret Service agents and Marina and Mrs. Paine were involved in that, in the conspiracy?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, I do. Besides another high official. I will tell you the high official I have in mind when we go through that part of the story, if you please.

Mr. Rankin. Well, now, could you tell us what you base that on—because that is a very serious charge.

Mrs. Oswald. It is a very serious charge, and I realize that. I base that on what I told you, the attitude of this man, and Mike Howard's attitude also.

While at Six Flags, Marina was given the red carpet treatment. Marina was Marina. And it was not that Marina is pretty and a young girl. Marina was under—what is the word—I won't say influence—these two men were to see that Marina was Marina. I don't know how to say it. Are you getting the point? Let me see if I can say it better.

Mr. Rankin. You mean they were taking care of her, or were they doing more than that?

I am not quite satisfied with the way I said that. Let me get my thoughts together.

I noticed that—and of course as I have testified, the way the man treated me—and I was told he was a body guard for Mrs. Kennedy. We were at Six Flags on November 24th, at Lee's death, and on November 26th Marina and I—before November 26th—Marina and I were very, very friendly, very loving, everything was "Mama"—"Mama has a big heart." And we planned to live together.

I had an insurance policy that had expired on Lee. I was not able to keep up the premium. And I had $863. But however I had not looked at the policy for some years, and I was not quite sure that it was in force. But otherwise I had no money and no job. I had given up my job to come to the rescue. So I was very anxious to get home and get my papers and let them see the copies of everything I had, and to find out if I had my insurance policy, if it was in force, and also get some clothes.

From the 24th until the 26th I lived in my uniform, gentlemen. I did not have any clothes at the Six Flags. Yet Robert Oswald was taken to his home a couple of times to get clothes. And when I wanted to go home and get clothes, they put me off. One time I broke down crying. I said, "I don't understand it. You won't do anything for me, yet you drove Robert all the way to Denton to get clothes."

So the night of the 26th they took me home, and I got my papers. I found that my insurance policy was in force. So I said to Marina, "Marina, we all right. Mama has insurance policy, $800. You stay home with baby and mama work, or mama stay home with baby and you work, and at least we have a start."

And this is the girl that has never had anything, and she only wanted small things. Fine.

On the date of the 22d, approximately 10 o'clock—this was in the morning—I want to say something to Marina, and Marina shrugged me off and walked away.

Mrs. Oswald. The 27th. That morning I had acted as interpreter for an171 FBI agent, and Mr. Mike Howard said, "Would you like us to get a Russian interpreter?" And he said, "No, Mrs. Oswald is doing fine." And he took the testimony from me as an interpreter. So, you see my daughter-in-law did understand English and answered me in her Russian broken English, because the FBI man was satisfied.

So when Marina shrugged me off, I thought right away that she thought—because I had to use the name Lee so many times—that I was hurting her husband, and maybe that is why she felt this way. So I thought maybe I am just imagining things. So I waited quite a while, I would say half an hour. I went to Marina again. And she walked away and shrugged me off.

So I walked into the living room, where my son, Robert Oswald, and the Secret Service were and I said to Robert, "Robert, something is wrong with Marina. She won't have anything to do with me."

He said, "I know why. Marina has been offered a home by a very wealthy woman"—all of this was done without my knowledge—"by a very wealthy woman who will give her children education, and she didn't know how to tell you."

Of course when I said it. I was emotionally upset. I said, "Robert, why didn't you tell me?"

I said, "What do you mean the way I am acting now? I am acting in a normal fashion. You are telling me that you are taking my daughter-in-law and my grandchildren away from me, and I have lost my son, and my grandchildren and daughter are going to live with strangers. This is a normal reaction."

And that is the last time I have talked to my daughter-in-law, Marina. And that is the rift between Marina and I. There is no rift, sir? We were going to live together. But this home was offered Marina—and I will present this in evidence.

Now, Mr. Gregory is involved—Mr. Gregory did all the Russian talking. They all knew better but me. And I have more to the story.

So I was not able to be around Marina. The Secret Service saw to it. And they gloated.

Gentlemen, I am not imagining these things. These two men gloated of the fact that now Marina is going to be fixed—you know, she is fixed financially and otherwise.

Mrs. Oswald. I didn't even read this, sir, believe me. This was handed to me by a reporter before I left, saying, "Mrs. Oswald, maybe these things"—because he knows the story. This has all been published publicly in newspapers, what I am saying. The Star Telegram could give you all I am saying here. It has already been made public in the paper, all of this. And he handed that to me. I never did see that article until the other day.

Mr. Rankin. This article refers to Mrs. Oswald being offered a home, and apparently a newspaper account—a newspaper account of the offer, according to this newspaper account—the offer was by a Mrs. Pultz. That is the one that you refer to when you handed this paper to us.

Now, I have not read that. I know she was offered a home by a woman and I will tell you further what I do know about this.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 169 for identification.)

Mr. Rankin. Mrs. Oswald, the reporter has marked that Exhibit 169, the newspaper article you have just given us, is that correct?

172 Mr. Rankin. I now offer in evidence Exhibit 169 and ask please to substitute a copy.

(The document heretofore marked Commission Exhibit No. 169 for identification was received in evidence.)

Mrs. Oswald. I left there on the 28th, so it would have to be the 27th. It would have to be the 27th.

Mr. Rankin. But you seemed to think there was something improper or bad about your son Robert wanting to get your daughter Marina taken care of in this manner. I don't understand that. Can you explain it?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes. Well—no—as I have explained before, Robert and I are not close, we are not close as a family. But Robert is a very easy-going person. He is not opinionated, particularly like I am. My older son and Lee are my disposition. But because you are a Secret Service man or somebody, if you tell him something, he will go along and yes you. So he was part of this arrangement. They probably had to have his consent. But he knew of the arrangement with Mr. Gregory and Marina. They all knew it but me. I was not consulted about this at all.

Mr. Rankin. Do you think Robert was trying to do something bad by it, or just trying to look out for——

Mrs. Oswald. He thought it was a good idea, that Marina should go and live in this home. But I took a different attitude. I am not interested in material things, gentlemen. I then went into my speech, that I thought, as a family, Marina and I should stick together and face our future together. I could see no reason—and I made this at the Six Flags, and have made it public in the newspapers, I could see no reason, no advantage of Marina living with strangers. I said that before. I thought it would be better, original idea, Marina and I had made, to live in my apartment and do the best we can. And I even said—we have $863 to start with, and then if we don't make it "What about you helping us?"

"But give us a chance as a family. Don't put the girl in a strange home, a Russian girl, a foreign girl, taken away from her Mama."

Marina has no mother and father—she has a stepfather. But I was her Mama up until this time. And I could not see Marina in a strange home.

Well, I am going to prove this story to you. It is a fantastic story. But as I go along—I have witnesses—and that is why I asked you, sir, I would like these people called to back up these fantastic stories I am telling you. It can be proven, sir.

So I had no further contact with my daughter-in-law—once they came out and said what they had planned. I had no inkling of it. That was the—they wanted to keep her and the children away from me.

That night, the night of November 27th—now, we were in a bedroom with twin beds that we shared. They opened the studio couch in the living room, and rolled June's bed, the baby bed in the living room, sir.

Mrs. Oswald. The Secret Service had the maid come in with sheets and everything and they got—opened the sofa into a bed. The Secret Service rolled the baby bed from the bedroom into the living room. And I knew that I was not wanted or involved. And I have a very dignified way about me. I didn't say a word. What I did—I sat up in a chair all night long in the living room, rather than to be so indignant as to sleep in the bedroom where they had taken my daughter-in-law from me. I sat up in a chair in the living room rather than be pushed aside like I was being pushed aside.

Mrs. Oswald. This same man. And my son is in this, too. Robert was part173 of this conspiracy that they were going to let her go to a home, and they didn't tell me—and Mr. Peter Gregory.

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, sir, she slept on the sofa. And they moved June's baby bed from the bedroom into the living room, by my daughter-in-law. And I sat in a chair. I can do that. I am a nurse, and I can do without sleep. And I had all the papers. I told you that the night before they took me home to get my papers. And that is why I knew I had the insurance money. So I started to work on the papers. And I sat up all night long.

Mrs. Oswald. There was nothing said between Marina and I. The last time I had seen Marina was when she shrugged me off, and then this came out why she shrugged me off. I have had no contact with Marina since.

Mr. Rankin. Now, why do you think there is a conspiracy about this? Can you explain that to us?

Mrs. Oswald. Well, I don't say that is a particular instance. But it is certainly a very unusual way to do a thing, a very unusual way—not to consult me. Marina and I were friends. She was going to come and live with me. I was going to share my money with her. And then they went ahead and planned all this without my knowledge.

Maybe you know the answer to it, I don't know. But there was no hard feelings—even now I love Marina and I would take and help her any way I can.

So I don't understand these things. But I am telling you the way things happen, the way I was excluded. And your Secret Service agents had part of this.

Mr. Rankin. And you do not think Robert and the Secret Service agents could be acting in good faith to try to just help Marina and her children along?

Mrs. Oswald. Well, I cannot see from my point of view that it would be good that a foreign girl lives in a stranger's home, a perfect stranger who has come to the police department and offered her a home. We are talking about a perfect stranger. If she is a perfect stranger—maybe she wasn't. I have no way of knowing. But I am going to assume what I read. It would be much better for this girl to go live in this stranger's home than to be with her family? This girl and my grandchildren needed a family, which I was that family. I cannot see that.

Mr. Rankin. What I am asking you is: Do you think it is possible that Robert was just mistaken when he and the Secret Service man, if they are involved, thought this might be a good plan. Isn't it possible they were trying to do the right thing?

Mrs. Oswald. No, sir, I think it was deliberate. I am sure—I don't think. I am positive it was deliberate. And I will tell you why as we go along.

Mr. Rankin. Well, this plan to have your daughter-in-law go and live with another lady—this Mrs. Pultz—you said you did not think it could be innocent or in good faith?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes—because then this same Secret Service man, that I don't know the name—now, I may be wrong about this—just a moment. No—this is not the same man.

One of the other Secret Service men had gone to talk to Robert's boss, because Robert was worried about his job. So this happened in the afternoon. I had no contact with Marina. And he came in and in front of me he patted Robert on the shoulder and said, "Now, Robert, I have talked to your boss and you are all right. I assured him you are not involved in any way."

So, gentlemen, Marina is taken care of; Robert is taken care of—I am not feeling sorry for myself, believe me, because I can take care of myself. But here is a mother who has come to the rescue, lost her job, offered her good love174 and insurance money, and nobody has wondered what is going to become of me.

Mr. Rankin. Well, did you think it was improper that the Secret Service man would go to Robert's boss and tell him he was not involved, that there was nothing improper?

Mrs. Oswald. No, sir; I do not. I think it was a fine gesture. And that is the point I am trying to make out. Why are these fine gestures to see that Marina is going to have a home and be taken care of, and Robert's job is secure—but I am nothing. I was not included in the plans. And what is going to become of me? I have no income. I have no job. I lost my job. And nobody thought about me.

I don't mean to imply I'm sorry for myself. I am trying to bring out a point that through all of this, that I have not been considered, even as much as to testify. I want to know why. I don't understand why.

So the next morning I am on my way home. I have no purpose to be there. I was helping my daughter-in-law, and helping the children. But now I am out of everything, so I insist on going home.

Before going home, I asked to tell Marina goodby, and my grandchildren, and what they have done this morning—they have taken her out of these quarters and brought her next door, to the other quarters of the Inn—it is just one door and a little courtyard to the other door.

Mrs. Oswald. This is the 28th. So the agent that was taking me home—I'm sorry, but I'm very bad at names, and there were so many agents, it is awfully hard for me to remember it all. I told him that I wanted to tell Marina that I was going. He knocked on the door. The Russian interpreter from the State Department, Mr. Gopadze, came to the door, and the agent said, "Mrs. Oswald is going home and wants to tell Marina and the children goodby."

He said, "Well, we are interviewing her, and she is on tape. She will get in touch with you."

Now, what worried me so was what did Marina think. What did Marina know of this, and what did she think? Did she think I deserted her? Did they think I left without telling her goodby? This worried me very much. I could picture the girl. What did she think? I didn't even get to tell her goodby.

So I tried in vain to see Marina. I have called Mr. F. V. Sorrels over and over and over, and he has never told me that Marina did not want to see me. And this, gentlemen, I have proof of. He always said, "Well, Mrs. Oswald, I am not able to divulge where she is" and the regular push-around. He is not telling me plainly I am not going to see Marina, he is being very courteous to me, but not letting me see Marina—if I am making this plain. And I have publicly blasted that. Over and over I have tried unsuccessfully.

Mr. Mark Lane, who is representing my son, talked with Mr. Jim Martin and Mr. Thorne—Jim Martin is Marina's business manager, and Mr. Thorne is her attorney. And Mr. Jim Martin and Thorne have stated to Mr. Mark Lane that Marina did not want to talk to me.

Now, this is approximately a month ago, I would say, when I first engaged Mr. Mark Lane. And Mr. Mark Lane said to me that he was not satisfied, when he gave me the information. I said, "No, I want Marina to tell me that." How did I know it was Marina's quote?

Mr. Sorrels never told me that Marina did not want to talk to me. But this was told to Mr. Mark Lane. But I would not take that as a quote. I wanted to hear it from Marina.

So we persistently tried to see Marina. When I say we, almost every reporter in the city of Fort Worth and Dallas has tried to see Marina. Mr. Mark Lane has tried to see Marina. Mr. Olds, who is head of the Civil Liberties Association—I don't know if that's the proper name—in Fort Worth has tried to see Marina. And there have been many prominent people trying to see Marina, because they could not understand how Marina could be under such strict surveillance that no one could be allowed to see Marina. There have been many, many175 people question this. It has been questioned, why Marina would be under strict seclusion for 6 weeks, with not a soul seeing Marina. I say not a soul. My son saw Marina at Christmas time, and probably had seen her before then.

His family went with him—I checked with my daughter-in-law, Vada, and she said she went with Robert for Christmas time. It came over the news in Fort Worth that Marina's brother-in-law, Lee's brother, would be with her at Christmas time, and Mrs. Marguerite Oswald was unavailable for news.

Gentlemen, I stayed home crying, hoping against hope that the Secret Service would come and let me be with my family for Christmas time, waiting there patiently. I was available for news. I had blasted this in the paper over and over. I waited for them to come get me. But there again, I am excluded.

The first time Marina ever made any statement or public appearance was approximately 2 weeks ago, or maybe not that long. She was on an exclusive television program. Channel 4 in Fort Worth, Tex., when she stated publicly that in her mind she thought that Lee shot President Kennedy. What an awful thing for this 22-year-old foreign girl to think. She thinks in her mind. She doesn't know. But she thinks, gentlemen. That tape can be sent back to you. That was her quote. I watched every television program, and I took it down in black and white. "In my mind, I think Lee shot President Kennedy."

She doesn't know our American way of life. Lee Harvey Oswald will be the accused assassin of President Kennedy when this information is over with, believe me.

She is a Russian girl, and maybe they do this in Russia. But what I am going to say is that Marina Oswald was brainwashed by the Secret Service, who have kept her in seclusion for 8 weeks—8 weeks, gentlemen, with no one talking to Marina.

Marina does not read English. Marina knows none of the facts from newspaper account. The only way Marina can get facts is through what the FBI and the Secret Service probably are telling her, or some of the facts that Marina has manufactured since.

Mrs. Oswald. Because for 8 weeks no one has been allowed to see Marina. I do not believe in my mind that that is an American way of life. I question the fact that it is even legal, that they can keep her in strict seclusion with no one seeing her for 8 weeks, gentlemen.

Now, there may be a reason for that. I don't know. But the American people want some answer to that. I have over 1,500 letters questioning that. The papers have blasted it continuously.

Mr. Rankin. If she didn't have somebody to look out for her, do you think the various people that wanted to see her would keep her so busy she could not even take care of the children?

Mrs. Oswald. Now, Mr. Rankin, I am not saying, even implying that the Secret Service should not protect my daughter-in-law. I am grateful for that, and I have expressed it. I am most grateful she has protection. But would there have been any harm for me to talk to Marina with the Secret Service around and let Marina tell me that she does not want to see me?

Mr. Rankin. Well, let's leave you out of it. What about all the rest of the people that would want—or did want to see Marina?

Mrs. Oswald. I agree with that. Marina should not see every Tom, Dick, and Harry. I think they are doing a wonderful job in protecting her. But when Mr. Mark Lane, who is an attorney, requested it, so we can solve this, to just let Marina tell him that she doesn't want to see her mama, and Mr. Olds, who is head of Civil Liberties, was refused permission to see her, then we question it.

No, I don't think all the people should see Marina. But people are asking these questions, Mr. Rankin. They want to know why a high official cannot see Marina, to satisfy the public's demand.

176 Mr. Rankin. Well, Marina had her own counsel at that time, she said. Mr. Thorne was her attorney.

When I first contacted Mr. Thorne I said, "Mr. Thorne, how is my daughter-in-law and grandchildren?"

And Mr. Thorne really apologized to me. He said, "Mrs. Oswald, they are fine. But I am unable to divulge their whereabouts."

And I said, "Well, sir; I am not asking where they are"—because I had already—by the time she got this attorney—by the time I had contacted him, we had been fighting this thing to see Marina. But he volunteered the information. He said, "Your daughter-in-law and grandchildren are fine, but I am not able to divulge their whereabouts."

I said, "I am not asking about their whereabouts." I said that I had Lee's Marine book, which is a big, colorful book, the life of a Marine, that Lee had sent to me, and Lee's baby book; that I had had in my possession ever since he was a baby, that I gave to Marina and Lee when they returned to Russia, and my husband's gold pocket watch I had all those years I gave to Lee. So I asked Mr. Thorne about these things and he said he would inquire about it.

I said, "Mr. Thorne, while I am on the 'phone I do want to bring something up. While I was at Six Flags, the day I left, the morning I left, is the first time that sympathy cards started coming in, and money. And these envelopes were addressed to Mrs. Marina Oswald and Marguerite Oswald, or Mrs. Marguerite Oswald and Marina, to both."

The Secret Service started to open the envelopes, and there were checks and cash. Because of my prior story that they had pushed me aside, I said, "Now, my moneys that come in that says 'and mother' I definitely want my share."

Mrs. Oswald. They said yes—and my son was there when I said that—they said they would divide it. If it was a $10 bill and it said the mother of Lee and the wife, that I would get 5 and Marina would get 5. So when I talked to Mr. Thorne I said, "I want to tell you, Mr. Thorne, while I was at Six Flags, I know of moneys coming in, but I have never received a penny. But I want you to know that the Secret Service in my home, because they were in my home from the 28th until the 3d"—I believe it was——

Mrs. Oswald. This would be December. Because this was the 28th of November—approximately the 3d. The money that came into my home that way, 'Mrs. Marguerite Oswald and Marina Oswald' the Secret Service divided right then and there. If it was a $10 bill, I got 5 and they took 5 to give to Marina. Whether Marina ever got the money or not, I have no way of knowing. But the money in my home was divided and the share given to Marina. But I never did get the share from the Secret Service at this time.

Mrs. Oswald. Very little. My contributions up to now are just a little over $900—about $905. That is the money that has been given direct to me, the mother of Lee Harvey Oswald.

So about 3 weeks later—now, Mr. Lane comes in here. He has all of these documents and all of these dates and everything. I don't know about the dates.

Mr. Thorne—from Mr. Thome's office and Mr. Martin I receive an envelope about this size with mail for me, Mrs. Marguerite Oswald—not "and Marina"—everyone open, gentlemen—opened, no cash, but checks, made out to Mrs. Marguerite Oswald, that nobody else of course could have any benefit from. This late date. And there were checks way in November, in the beginning of December, that were held all this time. But until I complained, then they decided to send them to me.

Mr. Lane has in his possession photostatic copies of my mail that has been opened by the Fort Worth Police. I had a tip from a reporter that my mail at the mayor's office and the Fort Worth Police and the chief of police was being177 photostatic copied. So I sent a telegram—and I have these things—you will have everything I have—to each one, the same telegram, saying that any mail addressed to Mrs. Marguerite Oswald should be forwarded to her immediately—to me immediately at 2220 Thomas Place. I received no mail.

So I called Mr. Sorrels and told Mr. Sorrels about the tip that I had. And I knew it was a positive tip—I could feel sure this young man was giving me the right information. I had much information that the public knows, that they have helped me in this case, Mr. Rankin. So Mr. Sorrels sent Mr. Seals, I think his name was, a Secret Service man down and the chief of police gave Mr. Seals—we have this—my mail opened and photostatic copies. I can produce this evidence.

Now, what right—I am not an attorney—but we have a moral issue all through this that I am fighting for.

If the mail went to the chief of police, Mrs. Marguerite Oswald, in care of the chief of police—it well could be that they have the legal right to open such mail. But they do not have the moral right, because I was an international figure, and everybody knew my address. And the chief of police and everybody else knew my address. And that mail should have remained unopened. How much cash was taken out of those mails? I do not know. And I am not really saying there was. But there is quite a possibility that it was.

Then I received another package from Mr. Thorne, and my mail was opened. I called Mr. Sorrels about that. He said he knew nothing about it.

First I called Mr. Thorne and he said that is the way he got the mail. So then I called Mr. Sorrells and he said he knew nothing about it. I said, "Mr. Sorrels, I'm getting awfully tired of this. Mr. Thorne doesn't know how my mail is being opened. He says that he got the mail from the Secret Service. And now you are telling me that you do not give the mail to Mr. Thorne. Where does my mail come from opened?" So nobody knows anything, the things that have happened to me.

My rights have been invaded continuously—continuously. Every newspaper clipping was taken out of my home. Three letters from Lee, from Russia. I offered all my information, as I explained over and over, to the Secret Service. And while in my home, I was showing them things—because I was proud of the things I have, and I think, gentlemen, when you see everything I have you will see a different picture of this boy.

There were three letters taken from my letters from Lee. And how I came to know that—a New York reporter had offered—he was going to write a story and had offered to buy three of my letters. I told him he could have his choice. And so he looked through the letters, and I looked through them with him, and I missed these three letters. These three letters would have been of importance to the Secret Service and to our government.

But you must remember, I have offered over and over to give any information I have.

One letter stated that Marina's uncle was a colonel in the Russian Army—I may produce this now. Is that what we need to do next—the letters?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, three were lost. The one about the Russian colonel was lost—that the Secret Service men took—three letters—that would be of importance for them. But I offered to give it to them. But they were taken from my home.

So when I missed them, Mr. Jack Langueth, who we can call as a witness, who is a reporter for the New York Times, wanted to pay me for letters—he178 printed the story in the paper with the three letters that he bought from me, three different letters I am talking about now, and printed how many letters I had, including the three letters that the FBI man that Marina's uncle was a colonel. He printed the things in the paper.

So approximately 5 or 6 days later the Secret Service man—and I can find his picture probably—came to my home and returned the three letters and got a receipt from me for the three letters.

Mr. Rankin. How much did this reporter offer to pay you for the letters and other things?

Mr. Rankin. I don't understand yet. You offered to sell the letters to him, or let him have use of them for $50 apiece?

Mrs. Oswald. No. Yes—he published the letters. It was published in the New York Times, the three letters.

Mrs. Oswald. No, he never did take the letters. Mr. Langueth never did take the letters he bought from me out of my hand. As I told you gentlemen, we went to a photostatic place and the letters were copied, and I kept the originals. He paid me $50. That was printed in the story. But the three letters that the Secret Service men had, he printed in the story about Marina's uncle being a colonel in the Russian Army. And that is the letter that the Secret Service man had.

Mrs. Oswald. No—these are different letters. So they returned those letters to me, the Secret Service, and I gave them a receipt for them. But they did not ask my permission to take them, or let me have a receipt when they took them. So I am trying to point out the fact that I got the three letters back, I would think, because the story in the paper said that the Secret Service had these three letters and parts of what they contained. So the three letters were returned to me, and I had to sign a receipt for those three letters.

Mrs. Oswald. I am not able to go into the defection now, because I am not through with this part. The defection starts an entirely different story, if you want to know the true facts, and it will take quite a while.

What sticks in my mind is this one particular letter about Marina's uncle. The other two I am not quite sure.

I want to say this, gentleman. And maybe you are not in agreement with me. But all my life I have known and I have thought that a title does not make a man. It may be presumptuous of me that I am accusing the Secret Service—because they are the Secret Service. But there are men in our Government, and the Secret Service, who are undesirable, just like in any other organization—let's face it. We have such men as Bobby Baker, who was a citizen well thought of. Charles Van Doren who was well thought of. Mr. Fred Korth who was under investigation, he was a wonderful citizen. I can go on and on. Yet these men turned out not to be the right type.

I say this because my son was a self-styled Marxist, and a known defector, and that is why his guilt was proven by the Dallas Police. And my son—had he been a Senator or someone in the higher field, maybe they would not have picked him up so fast. Now, that is a fact of our way of life, of human nature. Having a title doesn't mean that you are the man back of the title.

179 Mr. Rankin. Could we take those letters now and have the reporter identify them? Here is the one about the uncle in the Army?

Now, I did not finish the story of the woman offering Marina a home. I have not finished that story, really. This affidavit that I showed you about the woman offering Marina the home the morning of the 28th—I picked up the newspaper and I read in the newspaper—I will be through with this story in 1 minute. I picked up the newspaper on the 28th of November and I read in the newspaper where this woman had offered Marina a home. So I said to the agent that was sitting up—everybody was sleeping, and as I told you I sat up all night——

Mrs. Oswald. 1963. November 28. It was on the 27th that I knew my daughter was offered a home. Nothing was said where. In fact, at the time I thought she was going to live in Mr. Gregory's home. I just thought that. I did not ask. I was so hurt, I did not ask.

But on the morning of the 28th I picked up the paper and read this story about the woman going to the Dallas Police offering Marina a home. So I said to this agent, "Evidently that is who Marina is going to live with." But I did not know. But on the 28th is when I saw the story of the woman offering Marina the home.

Mr. Rankin. Now, you have produced a number of letters that you described as being letters received from your son, Lee Oswald, while he was in the Soviet Union.

Mr. Rankin. And we have asked you if you could identify the three letters that the Secret Service brought back to you and asked you to give a receipt for. You said it is very difficult, if not impossible, for you to do that. Is that right?

Mrs. Oswald. No, sir, I did not say that. I said that one letter I was sure of, because it stated that her uncle was an officer in the Soviet Union. That letter I am sure of. The other two letters—I would have to go through the letters. I think I could spot them, because it would be of importance to our country and the Secret Service to know—in other words, it was important for them to know she had an uncle in the Soviet Union. And the other two letters would be on that order. And I believe maybe I could—I would not want to state a fact that these two letters—I think I would be pretty close to choosing the other two letters as the proper letters.

Mr. Rankin. Mrs. Oswald, I wonder if it would be agreeable to you if we would identify all of those letters that you received from your son while he was in the Soviet Union, and then possibly when we recess you could look them over and see——

Mrs. Oswald. That is perfectly all right. Any way you want to do it is all right with me.

Mr. Rankin. Mr. Reporter, I will ask you to mark them, and Mr. Liebeler, will you help in the marking, because the letters are covered with glassine, and it may be hard to mark them with ink. I think by putting those stickers on we can help you.

Mrs. Oswald. Not all of the letters have dates. I think by taking the date on the back of the envelope it would be all right. And we had them in order. I don't know if they are still in order. But we had them by the dates.

Mr. Rankin. Mr. Reporter, I offer in evidence Exhibits 170 to 179, both inclusive, being pictures of the funeral and the casket that Mrs. Oswald has produced here for the Commission, and ask leave to substitute copies.

(The photographs referred to were marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 170 to 179 inclusive for identification, and received in evidence.)

Mr. Rankin. I then offer the various letters that Mrs. Oswald produced, that she said were sent to her by her son, Lee Harvey Oswald, from the Soviet Union.180 And I think it would be better for our record if I briefly state the date that the envelopes bear in each case, so it can be compared with the number.

Now, Mrs. Oswald, I understand from you there was one letter before the letter bearing the date July 18, 1961, on the American postmark on the envelope, and you do not have that here?

Mrs. Oswald. I may have it. I have many more papers and documents. I have a suitcase almost full that I have not yet opened. The suitcase was lost. We did not receive it until about 9 o'clock last night.

Mrs. Oswald. No. But there is one more letter. It is the very first letter I received from Lee.

Mr. Rankin. I call the attention of the Commission to the statement in Exhibit 180, "She was living at her aunt's place when I met her. They are real nice people. Her uncle is a major in the Soviet Army."

Exhibit 181, dated August 3, 1961, was the envelope postmarked United States, August 10, 1961. I also offer that.

Exhibit 182, dated October 2, 1961, with the American postmark October 10, 1961. I also offer that.

In each case, Mr. Chairman, I ask leave to substitute copies in accordance with our understanding.

The Chairman. Yes. We will make a blanket ruling on all of them when you finish.

Exhibit 183, dated October 22, 1959, with the American postmark on the envelope October 30, 1961. I offer it.

Mr. Rankin. And on the envelope it is October 30, 1961, Vernon, Tex. Mrs. Oswald, can you explain that?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes. Evidently Lee put the date incorrect—because I had no contact with Lee from the time—I had one contact with Lee from the time that he defected to Russia. And the only contact was when he was at the Metropole Hotel in Moscow. Then the next contact was when the State Department wrote me his address, which was July, or June 1961. So where Lee put the 1959, I would say it was just an error, because the postmark proves the date.

Mrs. Oswald. When we go into the defection, I have letters from 1959 that I myself have sent to Lee and have been returned, and, gentlemen, they are unopened, and I will give you the privilege of opening my thoughts to my son. They were returned unopened, because he was not located.

Mr. Rankin. I might answer your question, Mr. Dulles. We have a copy of the Metropole letter of 1959.

Mr. Doyle. Mr. Rankin, could I check—your Exhibit 182, the one you called just before this—I gathered that you gave a date of the letter and also a date of the postmark. Am I correct—October 2, 1961, is the date of the letter, and October 10, 1961, is the postmark.

Mr. Rankin. Now, with regard to Exhibit 183, which bears the date October 22,181 1959, in error, with October 30, 1961, as the postmark on the envelope, I wish to call the Commission's attention to this reference.

"Marina's maiden name was Prusakova. Her aunt and uncle's address in Minsk is"—and then the address is set out in Russian. And then continuing the same sentence—"they don't speak any English. However, her uncle is an Army colonel soon to retire."

Mrs. Oswald. And that I would think would be the letter that the Secret Service—was one of the letters that the Secret Service, as I previously stated, had.

Marina uses two names—Prusakova and Nikolaevna. Whether she was married before, or whether she uses two maiden names, I do not know. But I have a record of both names.

Representative Ford. Mr. Rankin, don't we have a record of those two names? Isn't one her maiden name and the other by her mother—and the other by her stepfather?

Mr. Rankin. That is the record we have. That is what Mrs. Marina Oswald testified to. She testified in regard to Nikolaevna. And the other name appears on her papers as the father.

Mrs. Oswald. But now Lee has said in one of those letters that her name is Nikolaevna. But then when he asked me in one of the letters to get an affidavit of support that Marina could come to the United States, that name appeared—Nikolaevna. Yet there are a couple of letters where he refers to her name as Prusakova. And I have it in his handwriting—when he gave me the slip of paper for the baptism he used Prusakova—Marina Prusakova Oswald. He did not use the name in the letters. That is what I find peculiar.

Mr. Rankin. The explanation was that the Prusakova was the identification of the father, which is often done. And she explained that with regard to the child they did not want to name June Lee Oswald with your son's name, if you recall—that is your son did not want that. But the Russian Government insisted that the father's name had to be shown.

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, I am familiar with that. I have done research on that. In Russia the father's name is used even if it is a girl. Now, Mr. Peter Gregory—his name is Peter Gregory, and his father's name is Peter, so his name is Peter Peter Gregory. They always use the father's name as a second name, regardless of sex. So June is named June Lee Oswald, which is Lee's name. And if there were two Lees it would be Lee Lee Oswald. That I know of.

Mr. Rankin. Exhibit 184 is dated November 8, 1961, and bears a postmark on the envelope November 18, 1961. I offer it in evidence.

Exhibit 185 is dated November 23d, without any year on the letter itself, with the postmark December 4, 1961, as the American postmark on the envelope. I offer Exhibit 185.

Exhibit 186 is Christmas greetings and bears the date December 12, 1961, stamped on the envelope. I offer Exhibit 186.

Exhibit 187 bears the date December 13, 1961, on the letter, and bears the postmark date December 26, 1961, on the envelope. I offer Exhibit 187.

Exhibit 188 bears the date December 20th, without any year on the letter, and the date January 2, 1962, stamped on the envelope. I offer Exhibit 188.

Exhibit 189 bears the date January 2d, and the stamped postmark on the envelope January 11, 1962. I offer Exhibit 189.

Exhibit 190 bears the date January 23d, on the envelope, January 22, 1961, written on the back of the envelope. I offer in evidence Exhibit 190.

Exhibit 191 bears the date January 20th, and stamped on the envelope is January 29, 1962. I offer Exhibit 191.

Mrs. Oswald. They are all registered return receipt mailed. Everything I had to sign for.

Mr. Rankin. Apparently—it states "Par Avion". But this one bears a mark182 February 1, 1962, on Exhibit 192, and the letter itself is February 1, 1962. That is pretty fast.

Mr. Rankin. Well, it is in handwriting. So that would be pretty fast mail. I offer Exhibit 192.

Exhibit 193, dated February 9, 1962, on the letter, and it is stamped on the envelope as February 23, 1962. I offer Exhibit 193.

Exhibit 194 is dated February 15, 1962, on the letter, and stamped on the envelope March 1, 1962. I offer Exhibit 194.

Exhibit 195 is dated February 24th, without a year date, and the envelope is stamped March 7, 1962. I offer Exhibit 195.

Exhibit 196 is dated March 28th, stamped on the envelope is April 9, 1962. I offer Exhibit 196.

Exhibit 197 is dated April 22d, without a year date on the letter, and stamped on the envelope is April 28, 1962. I offer Exhibit 197.

Exhibit 198 is dated May 30, 1962, on the letter, and is stamped on the envelope June 6, 19—it doesn't show clearly what the year is, but there is a 196, and I take it is 1962. I offer Exhibit 198.

The Chairman. All of the documents that have just been offered in evidence may be admitted and take the numbers assigned to them.

(The documents heretofore marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 180 through 198 for identification, were received in evidence.)

Mrs. Oswald. I don't believe this letter belongs with the letters. May I see it, please? Is that a letter from Russia? I don't think so, from what I can see from here.

Mr. Rankin. It purports to be, Mrs. Oswald. I hand it to you. It is Exhibit 198 you are speaking of?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes. I'm sorry. There was another very important letter of this size that I thought maybe became confused with the Russian letters. You will have to forgive me, Chief Justice Warren, but this is quite a big undertaking.

Mr. Rankin. Now, Mrs. Oswald, will you proceed with telling us how you determined or concluded that there was a conspiracy between the Secret Service people that you described and Marina Oswald?

Mrs. Oswald. Well, when I stopped—I have to remember where I stopped. Now, am I still at the Six Flags?

Mr. Rankin. The last I recall you were still there. You had also described, if you remember, the offer of Mrs. Pultz to take your daughter-in-law and provide her a home. You have said that you had not seen your daughter for quite some time, and you tried to communicate with her.

Mrs. Oswald. Yes—that was where my mail had been opened. And Mr. Mark Lane has my mail and the photostatic copies of the mail.

Mr. Rankin. I think the Commission would be very much interested in how you conclude that there was a conspiracy—if you can help on that.

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, I can help you. But I have many, many stories. I have to start from the defection. I have a story of Lee's life at age 16 that maybe you know about, maybe you don't. And I have many stories, gentlemen. I cannot do all these stories in these 6 hours I have been here today. I have covered quite a bit. I have many stories.

Mrs. Oswald. I cannot answer that yes or no, sir. I am going to go through the whole story, or it is no good. And that is what I have been doing for this Commission all day long—giving a story.

Mrs. Oswald. I cannot make it brief. I will say I am unable to make it brief. This is my life and my son's life going down in history. And I want183 the opportunity to tell the story with documents, as I have been doing. I am not going to answer yes or no, because it is no good.

Representative Boggs. Well, you use the expression "defector." I did not use that expression.

Mrs. Oswald. I said "so-called defector." The papers have "defector" and blown it up.

The Chairman. Well, Mrs. Oswald, you have told us, though, that you believed that Mrs. Marina Oswald and Mrs. Paine and two Secret Service agents were in a conspiracy that resulted in the assassination of the President.

The Chairman. What Mr. Rankin has asked you is what led you to the belief that there was such a conspiracy?

The Chairman. No, you don't have to do it in one sentence. Take your own time, but stick to that one subject, please, until we get rid of that, and then we will go to the other things.

Mrs. Oswald. Would you please consider I am very emotionally upset and tired, sir. I was up until 1 o'clock this morning fixing these papers for the Commission. When Mr. Rankin asked me to come on Thursday, they were not in the order they are now.

The Chairman. Well, give us as much as you can of it, and we will stop whenever——

Mrs. Oswald. Well, I have so far given you enough story to state this as a fact—that I believe—I am saying as I believe, sir, because if I knew who shot President Kennedy, I would be more than happy to tell you, and we would end it right then and there. But there is speculation among everyone. So naturally there is speculation by myself, and these stories I have told you are fact.

Marina became very unhappy with America. This I know for a fact. And then I will say this is part of another story.

Marina told me at Mrs. Paine's home that she wrote to the Russian counsel to go back to Russia because, "Lee not get work." Now, that is why Lee tried to get a visa in Mexico. But you see, sir, I was going to tell that whole story of that. But I will answer this—and that is what I based that on, too.

It was Marina who wrote to the Russian counsel for exit visas, and Lee followed it up. That is Marina having Lee do this. And she told me herself. Yet she states that Lee wanted to live in Russia and Cuba. But Marina wrote to the Russian counsel, "Mama, Lee not get work." So she wanted to go back to Russia. She liked America. She wanted to stay here.

Mrs. Oswald. This was the night in Mrs. Paine's home. I didn't tell you that, because these other stories are important, and I was going to bring it in for the Mexican trip. That is why I think you are confusing me. I'm sorry. But these stories—the way I want to say it, I would not forget anything by going in sequence. This way, when you are bringing me questions from the Mexican story and from the defection, you are throwing my mind off.

Mrs. Oswald. I have so many stories. And I have gone through about three or four today, complete stories.

The Chairman. Well, select one of them, please, and let's don't argue about the order. I want you to tell your story——

The Chairman. I want you to tell your story in your own way. And if this one exhausts you, select another story, and tell that.

Mr. Doyle. Why don't you start with—start and tell the members of the Commission about your accident and Lee's going to Russia.

184 Mr. Doyle. I know. But start it, and if you get tired at all, you advise the Commission, and I am certain that——

Mrs. Oswald. I will have something very important to this Commission that I would like to say, that would take up some time.

Mr. Rankin, I spoke with you, I think it was Thursday, December 6th, and I told you that since it was publicly known I was going to appear before the Warren Commission, that I would like to have protection, as you recall. I did not get protection, sir. And so the next morning I called you, approximately 9 o'clock, in the morning and told you that I didn't have protection, and I was very concerned. And this would have been Friday, the second call, and that I was going to the bank, to my safety deposit vault, and get the necessary papers. And I definitely wanted complete surveillance, because the papers were going to be with me in my home, and the public knew I was going to testify, and I wanted that protection.

Now, you said, you would get in touch with Mr. Sorrels, sir, and have Mr. Sorrel's call me, which he did approximately an hour after my request to you that I did not have protection. Mr. Sorrels called me and said "Mrs. Oswald, I understand that you want to go to the bank and get your important papers out of the bank, and you have requested protection."

I said, "Yes. I thought I had protection last night. I woke up 4 o'clock in the morning with all the lights lit, getting papers together and cleaning the house." Because the telephone started to ring consistently.

I would have never done that if I would have known I didn't have protection. I was leaving myself wide open.

He said, "May I suggest this, Mrs. Oswald"—first, he said, "What do you intend to do with the papers?"

He said, "May I suggest this. May we get a large brown envelope and put sealing wax on it, and you put the papers in our safety deposit vault."

I said, "No, sir, those papers do not leave my hands. I have had an understanding with Mr. J. Lee Rankin that the papers were going to stay with me, and that I would have complete surveillance while the papers were in my home. Now, Mr. Sorrels, I want that surveillance. I am very uneasy."

He said, "Mrs. Oswald"—this was approximately 10 o'clock in the morning—"Mrs. Oswald, I will not be able to have anyone there before 1 o'clock."

Mr. Mike Howard came out at 1 o'clock. We did some errands. I had to buy some luggage, and a few little things for the trip. Then we had supper. And at 5:30 we picked up the papers, because on Friday in Fort Worth, Tex., the bank opens from 4 to 6—on Friday evening. So we picked up the papers before 6 o'clock.

Now, I thought I had protection that night. I had protection that night until 12 o'clock. And then I understand that the Fort Worth police were circling the neighborhood.

I am a government witness, with important papers. And Mr. Rankin had—I requested protection—suppose someone had come to the door, or just shot through my home? The police circling three or four blocks away is not complete protection.

So Saturday morning I wanted to go out to breakfast. I kept opening the door and looking through the windows. And I never did see any men circling the neighborhood. There was nobody around. At 10:30 this morning I was still doing that. And by the way, a police car passed by and I hailed him and asked him if he could check in the neighborhood for the Secret Service, if they were circling the neighborhood—because I want to put my garbage out, and I needed to go out, didn't have breakfast. He said he didn't know what the Secret Service looked like, and he offered to come to the back and put the garbage out for me, which this Fort Worth policeman did.

185 So at 11 o'clock I called Mr. Mike Howard's home. His wife answered the phone.

I said, "I am very uneasy. I don't have protection. I have been looking for Secret Service men all morning."

I was going out on the porch—I was opening the screen door and going out on the porch. There is a school ground opposite my house. And nobody ever came. I was not under protection.

So Mr. Mike Howard when I told him that I was stranded, and could not go out to breakfast, and there was things I needed to do, he realized I was very upset, and I had a legitimate complaint, and he realized I was on my way to Washington.

So in my home he called Mr. Sorrels, who is a special agent in charge of the Secret Service and Mr. Sorrels was not at home. He talked to his daughter. And he said, "It is most important. Would you have him call me?"

So he sat in my home and waited for the call. About half an hour later Mr. Sorrels called.

And there was some conversation back and forth. And it went on back and forth conversation.

So I said, "I am getting very upset about not knowing the entire conversation. I want to tell Mr. Sorrels that if he doesn't have the authority, to give me complete protection, I want to know the man over him, so I can get complete protection."

He said, "Well, Mr. Sorrels, it is this way. She is going to Washington, and Mrs. Oswald wants to go here and wants to go there. And if we are not around to take her, she will certainly complain when she gets to Washington."

So I am assuming now—I am speculating, like everybody else—that Mr. Sorrels probably could have said, "Well, let her think she has protection," because Mr. Mike Howard had to come back in front of me, to his superior, and say, "That is no good. She might want to go some place, so we have to be here. I want to know what to do."

Now, isn't that peculiar—that I am a witness, with important papers, and supposed to be under surveillance, and I am not getting protection?

I would like to know the answer to these things. And Mr. Rankin himself called Mr. Sorrels.

Mrs. Oswald. I am sorry—but I knew you had placed a call, because Mr. Sorrels called me and said you had placed a call.

Now, the man last night that met me at the airport—there were two Secret Service men. One of the NBC men, I think it is—I am not quite sure—was at the station. He asked me questions, and he knows about all of this, because he was in Fort Worth, Tex.

But he asked me a question. He said, "Mrs. Oswald, have you seen your daughter-in-law?"

"Well, is it the Secret Service who have kept you from seeing your daughter-in-law?"

And I said, "Yes, it is the Secret Service who has kept me from seeing my daughter-in-law."

So in the car, with your two Secret Service agents, one was Mr. Brown and one was—I am very bad about names—he said, "Mrs. Oswald, what makes you want to blame the Secret Service? The time to have blamed the Secret Service was when it happened."

And I said, "I did blame the Secret Service when it happened. I made a report in Fort Worth, Tex., about that."

And I said, "The question was asked me." I answered him truthfully, "Yes, that the Secret Service have kept me from my daughter-in-law."

So he said, "Well, has it occurred to you that your daughter-in-law doesn't want to see you?"

And I said, "She made the statement in Washington, the first time I have known of that, from my daughter-in-law's lips, that she did not want to see me."

Now, again, I don't believe this Secret Service man had the right to quiz me like he did. I was very upset. Mr. Doyle can verify the fact. When he came to the hotel I was on the verge of tears, because of this quizzing.

The point I want to make—he said, "Isn't it true that you have had complete protection by the Secret Service for the last 2 weeks, ever since the testifying began?"

Now, where does he get the idea I have been under surveillance for 2 weeks? I don't understand these things.

Mrs. Oswald. Would you please consider that I can't go any more today? It is 4 o'clock. The defection is a very long and important story that leads into a story where a recruiting officer at age 16 tried to get Lee to enlist into the Marines. And it is a very important story, gentlemen. And I think you would be quite interested in it for the record.

The Chairman. We will recess now until tomorrow. Mr. Doyle, I understand in the morning you have a court appearance that you must make. But you will be available at 2 o'clock.

Mrs. Oswald. I appreciate it, because I was up until late last night trying to get the papers for you. It wouldn't do you any good if I break down.

The Chairman. Well, we don't want to overdo the situation in any way. So we will adjourn until 2 o'clock tomorrow.

Tuesday, February 11, 1964
TESTIMONY OF MRS. MARGUERITE OSWALD RESUMED

The President's Commission met at 2 p.m. on February 11, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C.

Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Representative Hale Boggs, Representative Gerald R. Ford, and Allen W. Dulles, members.

Also present were J. Lee Rankin, general counsel; Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel; John Doyle, attorney for Mrs. Marguerite Oswald; and Leon Jaworski, special counsel to the attorney general of Texas.

187 Mr. Doyle. Mr. Mark Lane is present as counsel, as I understand, for Mrs. Oswald. Although I have not talked to Mrs. Oswald about the matter, as I understand it Mr. Lane represented her from time to time, in one capacity or another in the past.

I do not know the particulars. Mrs. Oswald or Mr. Lane could better advise the Commission about the point.

Of course my designation was at the request of Mrs. Oswald to act in her behalf, since there was no counsel of her choice present at the time.

Mr. Doyle. In view of the appearance—I wonder if it might be straightened out—if Mr. Lane wishes to enter his appearance in the matter.

Mrs. Oswald. Well, Mr. Lane is just here for a few hours, Chief Justice Warren. He flew in just for a few hours. He is catching a 4 o'clock plane out. And I thought—he had asked permission just to sit in for these few hours.

The Chairman. Mr. Lane, now really—either you are here as the attorney for Mrs. Oswald or you are not entitled to be in this room—one of the two.

Mr. Lane. May I ask, Mr. Chief Justice, if it is permissible for me to function at Mrs. Oswald's request as her counsel together with Mr. Doyle, just for an hour or two, and then be excused.

The Chairman. Mr. Doyle has said that if you are her attorney he is not. And Mr. Doyle is doing this as a public service. We must respect his views in the matter.

Mr. Lane. I see. I did explain to Mr. Doyle before I came into the room exactly what the situation was. It was not until now that I understood his response.

Under those circumstances, I wonder if I might confer with Mrs. Oswald for just a minute or two.

Mr. Lane. Under the circumstances, since I do have to leave and I will not be able to be here for the rest of the afternoon's session and for subsequent sessions—under those circumstances, since Mr. Doyle will not remain on jointly with me, I will at this time withdraw.

The Chairman. Very well. Now, we will continue. Mr. Rankin, you may continue with the hearing.

Mr. Rankin. Mrs. Oswald, could you tell us first now, while you are fresh, about this conspiracy that you said that you knew about?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes—If you would like me to do it now. I was going to lead up to all the fundamentals, to my way of thinking. I have no proof, because naturally if I did I don't think we would be here.

My way of thinking is because the involvement of myself at Six Flags and the way I was treated, as I have already put into the testimony, and as I stated yesterday, also, that I was supposed to be under protective custody, and I was not.

I wonder why I didn't have protective custody, why I am not important enough, with papers out of the vault, and appearing before the hearing, that Mr. Sorrels, head of the Secret Service, didn't give me protective custody, even though you, yourself, Mr. Rankin, required it.

Mr. Rankin. Well, it is such a serious charge to say that these two Secret Service men and your son and—I didn't understand for sure whether you included188 anyone else in your charge—were involved in a conspiracy to assassinate the President.

Mrs. Oswald. That is not my statement. I said I thought that we have a plot in our own government, and that there is a high official involved. And I am thinking that probably these Secret Service men are part of it.

Now, I didn't say in a conspiracy—make it as strong as you did. I have made it strong. But I am under the impression that possibly there is a leak in our own government. And when I come to these papers—and I specifically yesterday morning asked about Senator Tower.

Now, I am not throwing any reflection on Senator Tower. But he made the statement in the paper that he had a letter from the State Department saying that Lee had renounced his citizenship.

Now, you see, I don't have that paper with me. I had it yesterday morning. But his whole quotes—the dates and everything of the letter that he was supposed to have had is not in correspondence with the dates that I have from the State Department papers which you gentlemen know that I have all these papers from the State Department. Nothing corresponds with what I have.

So I wanted to know and see this letter that Senator Tower claims he has. It could have been that it was an error in newspaper reporting, and I will say in slang he could have shot his mouth off, because he said he would not help the boy when the boy wrote him the letter.

Representative Ford. Mr. Chairman, I saw the letter that Lee Harvey Oswald wrote to Senator Tower the day after the assassination. And I believe I also saw the response that he received from one of the agencies of the Federal Government. Senator Tower had the original of the letter. If it is not in our Commission files, I am sure it is available for the Commission files—along with, whatever exchange of correspondence he had with the Department of State concerning the matter.

Mrs. Oswald. Well, now, what is of utmost interest to me in this particular case is if there is such a letter, and it does not correspond with anything that I have, I would like to know who in the State Department wrote this particular letter.

Representative Ford. I would not know who in the State Department wrote the letter. I would suspect it was the Assistant Secretary for Congressional Affairs, Fred Dutton, I believe.

Mrs. Oswald. I am not suspecting, because I have many, many letters from the State Department, and I also have something else that I will present that maybe would be another party involved. There is very conflicting testimony.

You must realize that I went to Washington in 1961 and was in conference with three officials. And this was another Administration.

Now, I don't know much about politics, gentlemen. But I do know a little from the news.

And now this is of another Administration, the Kennedy Administration. And there could be a leak in the State Department. That is not impossible.

Mr. Rankin. A leak is so much different from a conspiracy to assassinate the President, though.

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, but this leak this could be the party involved in the assassination of the President—the high officials I am speaking of. I cannot pin it down to one sentence, gentlemen.

Mr. Rankin. Now, do you have anything that shows you that either of those men were involved in the conspiracy to assassinate President Kennedy?

Mrs. Oswald. I will answer that emphatically no. What I have stated is the way they treated me, sir. I elaborated the way these two men treated me—correct? I did that testimony yesterday.

Mr. Rankin. Let's consider Marina Oswald. Do you have anything that will189 show that she was involved in any conspiracy to assassinate President Kennedy?

Mrs. Oswald. All right—because Marina—now this I have said to Mr. Jack Lengett, who is a New York Times newspaperman a long time ago. And I was ashamed to say it to anyone else. And I didn't tell it to him for a long time.

The story yesterday at the Six Flags, when I said to you Marina shrugged me off, and the second time she shrugged me off. The second time she said—and I would not say it now unless I had told Mr. Jack Lengett—she said, "You no have job."

In other words, since Marina was being offered a home, then you go to—"You don't have job."

Before she was satisfied to take $863 and live with me. I was giving her my money and giving her my love. And then, "You no have job."

I am trying to show you the disposition of my daughter-in-law. I love her. But I am trying to show you that there is two sides. I told you how she hit the little girl with the comb. "Mama, I no need you, Mama. You don't have job."

Mrs. Oswald. Because I am going to try to show there is discrepancies all along. She was not supposed to speak English.

I testified that I, myself, questioned her for an FBI agent. I acted as interpreter. So Marina did know English and understand English. So that is a question.

Mrs. Oswald. Broken English. But she is not supposed to speak English at all, until now that she has learned English. That has been publicized over and over.

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, sir. I also told you when she lived with me that month in my home, how we conversed and talked. And yet the impression is that Marina came here and didn't speak English at all.

Mrs. Oswald. Because Marina now is not happy. Marina was very happy, I explained to you, the month she was with me in the beginning that they had rented this house. And then Marina made friends, very, very many friends. And Marina became discontented with Lee. Lee could not give her the things she wanted, what he told her about America. And Marina now has become discontented with me. I don't mean now—I mean at the Six Flags.

Mama always had a big heart. I quit a job to help these children, and that is perfectly all right. That is my nature.

I am trying to show this. And, as I go along—I cannot help but face this, gentlemen, it is a fact. I cannot help but face these things.

So I am under the impression—and this is speculation, like anything else—circumstantial evidence, let's say.

I am just a layman. That is what you have against my son. Nobody saw him with a rifle shoot the President. So you have mostly circumstantial evidence.

The Secret Service men, surely you will admit, did not guard our President properly.

Now, that was also stated in the newspaper by, I think it is, Secret Service Judge Baughman—am I saying that right? He is the one that—how Lee got out of the building, and why the President—there are many, many people that wonder. So I, too, am wondering.

So I say that President Kennedy was improperly guarded. And I am not the only one that says that, sir. So I have to consider that. I have to consider the way I, myself, was treated at Six Flags for the three days.

When I came here today—I have these notes, something very important about that particular incident at Six Flags, to back up my story with a witness. You don't have to take my word for it.

190 Mr. Rankin. What else is there now in regard to Marina that caused you to think she conspired to kill President Kennedy?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes—because everything is laid out in Mrs. Paine's home and Marina's home. The gun was in the garage.

Mrs. Oswald. No, but Marina told the police that the gun was there the night before. She saw the gun in the garage the night before. She didn't see Lee take it that morning. But she made a statement that she saw the gun the night before.

The pictures of Lee with the rifle came from that home. If Lee is going to assassinate the President or anybody else, is he going to have photographs laying all around with the gun? No, sir.

And there is too much evidence pointing to the assassination and my son being the guilty one in this particular house.

All through the testimony, sir, everything has come from this particular house. And so I am a thinking person, I have to think.

Mr. Rankin. Why does that show that Marina had anything to do with the conspiracy?

Mrs. Oswald. Well, we are speculating, let's say. Marina is not happy. Lee can't give her any money and things. And she has made friends with these Russian folks that have cars and homes. And they are not happy because this Russian girl doesn't have anything. They are not happy about that.

I love my daughter-in-law even now. Believe me, it is a sore spot to have to say this. But I have to face these facts of what I know.

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, sir. And it is also a serious charge that my son is the assassin of President Kennedy.

You see, we have two sides here. It is a very serious charge, because no one saw him shoot the President. And yet this is an international affair. And the conclusion has come to the conclusion that Lee Harvey Oswald has shot President Kennedy, and he alone. Lee Harvey Oswald, or Mr. J. Lee Rankin, or anyone in this room could not have been in that many places in 29 minutes time. It is utterly impossible.

And this has been gone over by hundreds of people. There are investigations. I have 1,500 letters, sir—not just letters of sympathy—people that are investigating this. And I don't read all thoroughly, and I am a layman. But he step by step has been taken, from what the reports said—that he was on the sixth floor, and then they saw him in the cafeteria drinking a Coca Cola, and the President came. Then he had to leave the building. He had so many blocks to walk before he caught a bus. He had to board the bus, he had to pay his fare, he had to get out of the bus, then he walked a few blocks, then he caught a taxicab, paid the taxi man, then he walked a few blocks, went to his home and got a coat. Then he walked a few more blocks and shot the policeman. Then he walked a few more blocks and he was in the theater.

So I am convinced my son, and my son alone, if he is involved—I am a human being, and I say my son could have shot the President, and he could have been involved. I am not the type mother to think that he is perfect and he could not do it. But I say he did not do it alone—if he did it. Because it is utterly impossible.

I think my son was framed because, gentlemen—would his rifle be in the sixth floor window of the depository—unless you want to say my son was completely out of his mind. And yet there has been no statement to that effect. Wade has publicly said on the television when it happened that he is sane, he is well reasoned, he knows what he did. And Lee never did break, with his black eyes. He kept saying he was innocent. And yet in 12 hours time he was proven guilty. That doesn't make sense to me, an ordinary layman. So I have to consider who is involved.

Now, I am telling you that this girl was not happy with her situation. She had turned against me twice.

191 You, yourself, yesterday said that she testified that I told her to tear up the picture. God give me the grace—I did no such thing. My testimony is true.

And every evidence of any importance has come from this house. I have to face that.

Mr. Rankin. What else do you have that shows that she had any part in the conspiracy to assassinate the President?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes. I am under the impression that probably she—I think Lee is an agent. I have always thought that, and I have as much circumstantial evidence that Lee is an agent, that the Dallas police has that he is a murderer, sir.

Mrs. Oswald. Well. I am going to tell my story. I have it all there. That is what I base it on.

Mrs. Oswald. No, sir, I don't think I want to tell it to you that way, because I cannot, almost.

If I feel that way, sir, don't I have the right, the American way, to speak up and to tell you what I feel? Isn't that my privilege?

Mrs. Oswald. I don't see how I can say to you I know he is an agent, and I have papers. I want to tell the whole story. I still have more papers. I have documents that I know you do not have, sir.

Mr. Rankin. Have you told us all that you know that would bear on your claim that Marina Oswald was——

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, sir—I cannot prove it. And I cannot prove Lee is an agent. I cannot prove these things.

But I have facts that may lead up to them. I cannot prove it, because if I did we would not be having this Commission, sir. I could say who shot President Kennedy.

Mr. Rankin. So in both cases of the agent—Lee being an agent, your son, and Marina Oswald and the Secret Service agents or anybody else conspiring with him for the assassination of President Kennedy, that is just suspicions. You cannot prove it—is that right?

Mrs. Oswald. I would not use the word suspicion, because I am not the type person to be suspicious and imagine things.

You may think so, because I am a woman. And this is my son. But my children were never tied to my apron strings.

And I can prove to you, in his defection in 1959, I made the statement that Lee, as an individual, had the right to think and do what he wanted to. They even said he was a Communist. If that is what he studied, and that is what he wanted to do, I accepted that, because that was his privilege as an individual. And that is public in 1959, my statement, which shows that I am not the sobbing mother kind because he has gone to Russia, and cry about it. I acknowledge that.

I have acknowledged that if the children, like Lee, went to Dallas, as I testified that yesterday, and didn't tell me he was going to Dallas—I don't grieve and lose my sleep over that. I have accepted that fact, because when Lee and Marina got ready to come to me that would be fine. In the meantime, I still have to live.

Mr. Rankin. Are you telling the Commission that your son was part of a conspiracy to assassinate the President?

Mrs. Oswald. I am saying that I realize that my son could possibly be part—yes—I realize he is a human being and he could possibly be in this, yes, sir.

Mrs. Oswald. Well, exactly what I am trying to say. If I had proof, sir, I would give the proof in an affidavit and this case would be closed, like Mr. Wade said.

Mr. Rankin. You are saying that possibly the Secret Service agents were involved, too? You don't have any proof of that?

Mrs. Oswald. That is exactly what I have been trying to say. I have told you how I was treated, which has given me cause for this particular way of thinking—because I believe that my son is innocent. And I think that is the purpose of this Commission, is to hear all witnesses and arrive at a conclusion. Am I not right, gentlemen?

So this is my way of thinking. So grant me my way of thinking. If I am wrong, fine. But you may learn something.

Mrs. Oswald. No, sir. I wish I did know. I have my own idea about that. I would rather not—because it is a high official—I would rather not give a name.

Mr. Rankin. We would appreciate your telling us within this group what you think.

Mrs. Oswald. Fine—and I expect to, Mr. Rankin. I am a person that is very outspoken, as you know by now, and I will certainly do that.

But will you grant me the privilege first of finding out the name of the man in the State Department that wrote the letter to Senator Tower, because it is an incorrect—it is incorrect—the whole testimony is incorrect.

Mrs. Oswald. All right. I was going to go into something else, but while we are here, I will continue this.

And this, to me, will be in this line. And I think very important to you gentlemen. And you do not have a copy of what I am going to show you. I am the only person that has this copy.

I am sorry to take time, but these were not copied, sir. We sealed them up, and we were going to have them copied this afternoon. But I can get to this particular one. This is the defection. I have much more testimony than this. I have testimony, sir.

Mr. Rankin. Do you think that you can tell us the name of the high official you spoke about?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, I think so. And I am going to tell you. But please do not ask me at this particular moment. I do not think this is the proper time for me to—it is just—I have no proof. Understand? As I said, it is my right to think and my analysis of the papers I have. I have papers where I can come to a conclusion, just like you gentlemen are going to have papers and witnesses and come to a conclusion.

Mr. Dulles. I wonder if we could not possibly explore that agent matter. I am very much interested in that. I cannot be here tomorrow. We laid all the groundwork for that.

The Chairman. Mr. Dulles would like to know her reasons for believing that he was an agent.

Mr. Dulles. I have to be absent, unfortunately, tomorrow, so I would like very much to have it.

Mr. Rankin. If you could go into that question, Mrs. Oswald, because Mr. Dulles is not going to be here tomorrow.

Mrs. Oswald. We have everything just so, and yet when we come here we don't have it. The International Rescue Committee is what I am looking for.

I have also the original application from the Albert Schweitzer coming that you gentlemen do not have.

Mrs. Oswald. All right. I am a little excited now, because I meant to go story by story.

193 Gentlemen, I have at least four more stories to tell—two I don't think there are some parts you possibly can know about.

Mr. Rankin. Well, if you could tell about why you think your son was an agent, it will help to get that taken care of this afternoon while Mr. Dulles can be with us. That is why I asked you that.

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, sir. We have a special file. You see, gentlemen, all morning long I was in the backroom and we were copying things. We had everything just so. So now I don't know what condition they are in. Mr. Doyle and I worked on the papers again last night and we had them just so. And then when they were copied, evidently they were mixed up again.

Mr. Rankin. We tried to have you present so that would not happen. Mrs. Oswald. I guess you didn't accomplish that.

Mrs. Oswald. Well, they did take it into the other room, and we saw that they took it.

I received a letter from Lee—this is going to be real short, Chief Justice Warren. It is going to continue this one story. And then I will go into the defection—is that right—because this will continue that.

A letter from Lee asking me to go to the Red Cross in Vernon—I was on a case there—and asking me to show the letter to the lady at the Red Cross. And this is from Moscow. This is the letter from Moscow. And telling her that all exit visas and everything had been documented and he is ready to come home, but he needs help financially to come home.

Mrs. Oswald. So when I entered the Vernon Red Cross—now, this came with Lee's letter, Chief Justice Warren—the letter you have there direct from Moscow. That is why I have it, sir—because it was in Lee's letter asking me to go to the Red Cross in Vernon. So I have the original from Moscow.

I told the young lady, showed her the letter and showed her the paper. And I said, "Would you find out, please, the address of the International Rescue Committee? My son is in Russia and asked me to contact you."

"Well, I think anybody goes to Russia doesn't need any help to get back, they should stay over there."

So I said, "I am not interested in your personal opinion. I need help. Would you please contact, give me the address of the International Rescue Committee so I can continue to try to get money for my son to come home?"

I asked her if she had a private line to Wichita Falls, which was approximately 40 miles away, which would be the next big city. She called Wichita Falls, and they did not know the address of the international committee.

So I called Robert and told Robert what I had and asked him to try to find out the address of the International Rescue Committee. However, he gave me no satisfaction.

Now, I sent a telegram—and you know this part of it—to the State Department, asking—I told them I was in a small town, Vernon, Tex., and I had received a letter from Lee asking me to get the address and help from the International Rescue Committee. But being a small town I had no success—could they help me out?

So they sent a telegram back with the address of the International Rescue Committee. That you have.

Now, this young lady was very, very regalish. She didn't want to help anybody going to Russia. So when I received the telegram from the State Department, it was on a Saturday. I called her that morning. I was delayed 4 or 5 days. And to me it was very important, since my son and daughter-in-law194 had all documents finished with to get the money to come home, because I wanted that baby to be born here.

So I called her at her home and told her that I had the address from the State Department of the International Rescue Committee, and would she be so kind enough as to come to the office and write the letter for me.

I said, "Do you mean to tell me you are in charge of the Red Cross and you don't have a key?"

"Well, young lady, you have delayed me 4 days, and I don't like your attitude. I am going to ask you especially to make a point to come to the office and get this in the mail for me. It is very important."

So she wrote the letter to the International Rescue Committee, and handed it to me, and I mailed that letter—I mailed the letter.

So she called me—her name—Mrs. Harwell. She is the only woman in the Red Cross office in Vernon, Tex.

She called me and told me she had received word from the International Rescue Committee. She read me this letter. So I said to Mrs. Harwell, "Do you mind if I take the letter, because I am very forgetful?"

So she took a scissors, gentlemen, and she cut this part out, which was her title and her address—it was addressed to her. This lady wanted no part of anybody in Russia—understand? So she cut this out.

But on the back page was the name. But that is why this space is here—she cut it out.

Now, the letter reads: "Since we had a call from the State Department on Mr. Oswald's case, your communication of January 14th did not come as a surprise."

So this young lady has followed up with a letter of her own to the International Rescue Committee.

"Since we have had a call from the State Department, your letter does not come as a surprise."

I mailed the first letter, and it was just—so she followed up her feelings about a boy in Russia.

Now, why does the State Department dicker with me—that is not the word—and then see fit to put in a personal call to the International Rescue Committee?

I would like to know who from the State Department called the International Rescue Committee.

Mrs. Oswald. I am wondering and questioning why a call is necessary, a call, when they had contacted—and I am showing you what I have here. I don't see any necessity of the State Department to call the International Rescue Committee.

I would like to know who called the International Rescue Committee from the State Department—yes, sir, I would.

Mrs. Oswald. Well, no—now. Mr. Rankin, don't pin me down everything I say to the word conspiracy. I am trying to analyze a whole condensed program of things that are not correct. I am telling you about this. It could be just a simple thing, that he called. But I would like to know who called when it wasn't necessary to make a call, and Lee was not going to get the money. Read the letter.

Mr. Rankin. The reason I ask you about the conspiracy is because that is such a serious charge. And, as you say, if you could prove that, that would decide everything around here.

Mrs. Oswald. That is right. And I am going to see if I cannot show you these things.

195 Mr. Rankin. If you are speculating, which you have a right to do, that is something different.

Mrs. Oswald. Well, I have explained that I am speculating, that I have all these documents, that some of them don't make sense. That is what I am trying to tell you. I mentioned that before.

Mr. Rankin. You are not trying to say to the Commission that you have the proof that there was a conspiracy?

Mrs. Oswald. I have emphatically stated that I do not have the proof, because if I had the proof I would have an affidavit and give you gentlemen the proof. I made that clear two or three times. I wish I did have the proof, sir.

I think I said yesterday—it doesn't surprise me that there may be someone in our State Department or some official who would have part in this. He is a human being just like we are. He may have a title, but that doesn't make him a man back of the title.

Mr. Dulles. What is this conspiracy now, Mr. Rankin? Is this the conspiracy to do away with the President, or is this a different conspiracy?

Mr. Rankin. The conspiracy I was asking about was the conspiracy, she said, about the assassination of President Kennedy.

And she said that it involved the two Secret Service agents and her daughter-in-law and her son. That is the one I was asking about.

Mrs. Oswald. And Mrs. Paine. I feel like the facts have come from this particular source.

Mr. Rankin. Now, as I understand she says now that she is speculating as to that being a possibility.

Mrs. Oswald. Well, now, Mr. Rankin. I have not changed my testimony, if you are implying that. I may not have put it in a position you understood. Because as I say, I certainly did not mean to imply that I had proof, because if I had proof I would not be sitting here taking all my energy and trying to show you this little by little. I would have had an affidavit and show you the proof. So if you want to call it speculation, call it speculation. I don't care what you call it. But I am not satisfied in my mind that things are according to Hoyle. And I believe that my son is innocent. And I also realize that my son could be involved. But I have no way of knowing these things unless I analyze the papers that I have, sir.

Mr. Rankin. The Commission would like to know what you base your assumption that your son was an agent on. Could you help us?

Mrs. Oswald. Would you like me to go into this story—I will start with my son's life from the very beginning.

Mrs. Oswald. No, sir, we cannot. I am sorry. This is my life. I cannot survive in this world unless I know I have my American way of life and can start from the very beginning. I have to work into this. I cannot answer these questions like in a court, yes or no. And I will not answer yes or no. I want to tell you the story. And that is the only way you can get a true picture. I am the accused mother of this man, and I have family and grandchildren, and Marina, my daughter-in-law. And I am going to do everything I can to try and prove he is innocent.

Mr. Rankin. Well, now, Mrs. Oswald, you are not claiming before this Commission that there was anything back at the beginning, at the early childhood of your son, in which you thought he was an agent?

Mrs. Oswald. Well, aren't you gentlemen—I have a letter from you, Mr. Rankin. Aren't you gentlemen interested in my son's life from the very beginning? I think you should, because it has been exploited in all the magazines and papers. And this is not my son is what I am trying to say. He is not a perfect boy, and I am not a perfect woman. But I can show a different side of Lee Harvey Oswald, which I hope to do to this Commission.

Mr. Rankin. Well, I plan to ask you about his early life and these other parts. But I thought it would be helpful if you would be willing to do it to196 tell the Commission, while Mr. Dulles is here, what you base this claim upon that your son was an agent of the Government.

Mr. Rankin. If you have to go to when he was 16 years old as the first point, that will be fine.

Mrs. Oswald. All right. I have your word that you will let me have my life story from early childhood and Lee's life story from early childhood.

Mrs. Oswald. Thank you very much. We were in New Orleans, La., at this particular time. On or about October 5th or 7th—and you have this, gentlemen, as my proof, that I am telling a true story, and I will have witnesses that will be called—is a letter——

Mrs. Oswald. I said 1959—I am sorry. 1955. No, wait now. 1956—when we left New Orleans is 1956. Am I not correct? I am a little excited now, because of what happened before. The note——

Mrs. Oswald. No, sir. Wait. We have a note from the Beauregard School by me that I was going to San Diego. Do you have the note?

Mrs. Oswald. May I see that note, please? And that is approximately October 5th or the 7th, I think it is, 1955.

Mr. Rankin. We are handing you this book that we received from the State of Louisiana that is Commission's Exhibit No. 365, and turn to page 11 and you will find the note you referred to.

Mrs. Oswald. To the school. All right, gentlemen, this is a surprise. This is my note, isn't, to the school, that I am moving to San Diego. And it has been blasted in all the papers how I moved around, and I was going to San Diego.

Lee, my son, wrote the note—on or about October 5th or the 7th—October 7th. And now comes the story why he wrote the note.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 199, and received in evidence.)

Now, I am working at Kreeger's Specialty Shop, 800 and something Canal Street in New Orleans, La. I received a telephone call from the principal of the Beauregard School saying. "Mrs. Oswald, I understand you are going to leave town, and we are awfully sorry to lose Lee."

Lee came into this shop later on that day. Miss Lillian New, I think her name was, who is manager of Kreeger's Shop, and has been for years—she will witness this.

Mr. Rankin. You say when the school authorities asked you, you sort of went along with it. What do you mean by that?

Mrs. Oswald. When the lady called me and said that, "I understand you are leaving town, Mrs. Oswald."

Mrs. Oswald. Well, because there was a switchboard, and my job was in jeopardy, I don't know the exact words, but I said—I had to be kind of vague about it and not discuss it. I knew I wasn't leaving town, sir.

Mrs. Oswald. No, I don't think I told her. But I had to be very—I would lose my job if they thought I was leaving town. It was news to me.

So Lee that afternoon, from school, came into Kreeger's Specialty Shop197 where I was working and said, "Mother. I want to join the Marines, and I have quit school."

Now, Mr. Kreeger—and he may be leaving—Mr. Frank Kreeger who is owner of Kreeger's Specialty Shop, and all of the personnel there—this is a very small shop, and Miss Lillian, who was manager, knows of this. I became very excited and I started to cry. And they let me go home with Lee.

So Lee was determined at age 16—his birthday was going to be October 18th, right—and this was October 7th—was going to join the Marines. So what Lee wanted me to do was falsify his birth certificate, which I would not do. And he kept after me, like a boy.

So I have a very good friend, Mr. Clem Sehrt, who is an attorney in New Orleans, La. I called him and told him I had a personal problem. I had not seen Mr. Sehrt since early childhood. I knew the family. That Lee was not of age and he wanted to join the Marines. And he quit the school and told them we were going out of town.

He said, "Marguerite, I cannot advise you. It would be unethical. But a lot of boys join the service at age 16."

My sister, Mrs. Charles Murret, 757 French Street, knows of the complete story. And so does my brother-in-law, Mr. Charles Murret, who also said, "Let him join, let him go. If he wants to go so badly, let him join the Marines."

I, at that time, was living at 126 Exchange Place, which is the Vieux Carre section of the French Quarter of New Orleans.

And, by the way, the papers said we lived over a saloon at that particular address.

Gentlemen, if you have this information, that is just the French part of town. It looks like the devil. Of course I didn't have a fabulous apartment. But very wealthy people and very fine citizens live in that part of town, and there are hotels and saloons, and courtyards where the homes are.

There was a colonel on the street that I stopped—I didn't know him—I said, "Sir, I would like to talk with you." I told him about the boy wanting to join the Marines and I didn't know what to do. I was frantic. And he was insistent that I let him join the Marines at age 16.

So he advised me, "Well, if he doesn't want to go to school, let him join the Marines. It is done all the time."

Now, a recruiting officer from the Marine Reserve in New Orleans, La., was in my home the next day when I arrived from work, with Lee, in uniform, in the home when I got into the home. He introduced me to him and he said, "Mrs. Oswald"—he didn't tell me what to do. He was very vague about the thing.

I said, "No, Lee is too young, age 16, to join the Marines. They are liable to send him overseas."

He said, "There is less delinquency in Japan and those places than we have here."

What he was doing was telling me to falsify his birth certificate, but not in plain words. He was telling me it would be all right for the boy to join the Marines. He came to my home personally.

Lee's birth record is in New Orleans. And I knew that the Marine Corps could easily check on this child, age 16—his birth record. So in order to have a happy situation, so I could work, and to see Lee, I went to an attorney and paid $5 and said that I lost Lee's birth certificate, and kind of motioned to the198 attorney. I knew it would not stand up. I bought Lee a duffle bag and everything, and Lee went—we told him goodby, and Lee was going to join the Marines.

I had to accept that, gentlemen. There was no other way I could do, but accept the fact to let him go.

Mrs. Oswald. He said according to attorney ethics that he would not be able to advise me. Before you came in, sir, I had stated that.

Now, when I get interrupted, I lose—this is a big thing for me. I am not making excuses. But, gentlemen, it is awfully hard to do this.

Now, I don't question much. I don't know whether Lee changed his mind, or they sent Lee home. I do not know. I do not question that.

Lee, at age 16, read Robert's Marine manual back and forth. He knew it by heart. Robert had just gotten out of the Marines, and his manual was home. And Lee started to read communistic material along with that.

Mrs. Oswald. It was a small book that he had gotten out of the library. And I knew he was reading it, Mr. Rankin.

Mrs. Oswald. No—if you are saying the title is Marxism—no, sir, the title was not.

Mrs. Oswald. It was more about communism. I knew he was reading it. But if we have this material in the public libraries, then certainly it is all right for us to read. And I think we should know about these things, and all of our scholars and educators and high school boys read subversive material, which we call subversive material. So I, as a mother, would not take the book away from him. That is fine. Lee is a reader. I have said from early childhood he liked histories and maps.

He is with this recruiting officer and he is studying the Marine manual—he knew it back and forth. In fact, he would take the book and have me question some of the things. And he was reading communism.

Lee lived for the time that he would become 17 years old to join the Marines—that whole year.

Mrs. Oswald. What did he do during that year? He was working for—as a messenger for Tujaque and Son.

His first job was Tujaque and Son, who was steamship people, and he was a messenger. And then he had a lot of friends.

Now, they say Lee didn't have friends. There were boys of his age—while he was working he had an opportunity to make friends, coming to my home. And one of the young men knew of a better paying job, where they had coffee breaks and everything, so Lee took that job, which was with a dental laboratory—if you have that information, sir.

And I think that is the only two jobs—no, Lee worked after school for Dolly Shoe Co. I was working there, in charge of the hosiery department, and Lee worked on Friday afternoon and Saturday as a shoe salesman.

And then when he left school, as I told you, at age 16—the first job was199 Tujaque and Company, steamship, and then the dental laboratory. And that is the only jobs he had in New Orleans.

Mrs. Oswald. No, sir—because when we left New Orleans, Lee left this dental laboratory job—that is correct.

So I moved back to Fort Worth, Tex., because Robert did not want to live in New Orleans. Robert was raised in Texas, and has his girl friends and all his friends in Texas. So when Robert got out of the Marines, he wanted to live in Texas. So I know that Lee wants to join the Marines at age 17, so in the month of July 1956—and, gentlemen, I have always been broke, and I mean broke. About a week before rent time, we had it pretty hard in order to have that rent. Yet I take my furniture and ship it to New Orleans so Lee could be with his brother and we could be with the family—thinking maybe with Robert he would not join the Marines at age 17 and finish his schooling.

The reason why he didn't go into the Marines until October 24th was the recruiting officer at the Marines could not understand his birth certificate, because his father had died 2 months before. So I had to send for an affidavit, even though I had the death notice from the paper and everything, and they could have—they could not understand that about that two months. I had to send to New Orleans for an affidavit of his father's death.

From the 18th to the 24th every day Lee was leaving. We even laughed about it. Because he would leave in the morning and come home in the evening. And it was because he was born 2 months before his father—so he did join the Marines at age 18.

Now—that, Mr. Dulles, is the part you wanted to know. But, before, that has something to do with it. Lee——

Mr. Rankin. Mr. Dulles wanted to know what you based this idea that he was an agent on?

Mrs. Oswald. That is one part. That is the beginning of it, Mr. Dulles. I have much more. That is the beginning of it, sir.

Mrs. Oswald. He joined at age 17. I signed the paper. You will please forgive me when I make mistakes, and if you will correct me.

Now, just a minute. I am sorry—this morning, when they were copying my papers. I put this in my bag.

I have a picture right here—this is Lee at age 15½ in the uniform of the Civil Air Patrol. This is before the recruiting officer. We are going back.

Mrs. Oswald. At age 15½ or so, Lee joined the Civil Air Patrol. He went on an airplane, on flights and everything. I got him the uniform, with Robert's help. This young man—now, I do not know his name. He is from New Orleans. And I am checking on these things. I have to do research on all of this, and do it alone.

This young man and Lee were very friendly. The young man that gave Lee the idea of—went to Beauregard School with him, and he and Lee joined the Civil Air Patrol together. That is the way I wish to state this. And he often came to the house. So there is a close friend of Lee. Lee is not supposed to have any friends.

Mrs. Oswald. No. Now, neither did Robert or John Edward. No, sir. Neither of my boys had girl friends until after about age 17.

Mr. Rankin. Did he have other close friends, boy friends, besides these that you recall?

Mrs. Oswald. No, sir, I would not say he had—unless during working—he was working at this time, and I was working during the day. But I mean at the200 house this young man came to the house, and several of the other young men, as I told you before.

And that is why Lee went to the Marine Corps, is because of the Civil Air Patrol. He wasn't in the Civil Air Patrol long.

Mr. Rankin. Now, up to this point, you haven't told us anything that caused you to think he was an agent, have you?

Mrs. Oswald. Well, maybe, sir, I am not doing a very good job of what I am saying.

Mrs. Oswald. I have said that a Marine recruiting officer came to my home, and that Lee then continued reading Robert's manual by heart, and started reading communist literature. He is preparing himself to go into the Marine service—at age 17—this year before he actually joined the service. I am saying he is already preparing himself.

Mr. Rankin. Is there anything else you base that on, except what you have told us?

Mrs. Oswald. No. Otherwise than Lee's attitude. Lee read this manual. He knew it by heart. I even said, "Boy, you are going to be a general, if you ever get in the Marines."

Mr. Rankin. He was being prepared to become an agent, and inspired by this recruiting officer?

Mr. Rankin. By what you have told us about his reading the communist literature and this one pamphlet, and also the manual of the Marine Corps?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, sir. And then living to when he is age 17 to join the Marines, which I knew, and which he did at age 17 on his birthday.

Mr. Rankin. Now, what else do you base your idea that he was—ever became an agent or was going to become an agent on?

Mrs. Oswald. Many, many things. We always watched—it is "I Led Three Lives"—the program—Philbrick. We always watched that. And when Lee returned from the service and the Marines, the three days—that program was on, and he turned it off. He said, "Mother, don't watch that, that is a lot of propaganda."

It has been stated publicly that the FBI did not know—didn't have Lee on the subversive list—I am probably not saying this right, gentlemen—but the rightwing in Dallas. I don't know anything politically. The FBI and Secret Service had a list of names in Dallas of people that had to be watched, and Lee Harvey Oswald was not on that list. That would lead to believe there was some reason he was not on the list.

Mrs. Oswald. From the newspapers and all over. And there has been a lot of comment about this all through.

Now, I don't say it is correct. But what I have explained to you before—my way of thinking has to go with this, because I know the boy and the whole life, and you do not, sir.

Also, Lee's letters—and I have them in the hotel—I didn't bring them, because201 I thought we were through, and you have the copies—most every letter from Lee tells me something.

When Lee is coming back from Russia he says, "I plan to stop over in Washington a while."

If you will read every letter—if you think he is an agent—every letter is telling his mother—"If something happens to me, Mother, these are facts."

I might be elaborating. But I think my son is an agent. And these things piece by piece are going together, as far as I am concerned.

Mrs. Oswald. When Lee defected. And I have always said a so-called defection, for this reason.

Now, we come to another letter. I am going to have to take some time now, because we are not going in sequence. The letter Lee wrote to me from New Orleans is what I need.

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, sir, I gave you that copy yesterday. I don't have the letter with me. They are at the hotel.

Mrs. Oswald. Well, now, he was supposed to arrive in New York on the 13th of June, 1962. And that is the letter. When he arrived, I do not know. And I do not know if he went to Washington.

As I stated yesterday, he went to Robert's house, and I was on a case. So I don't know when he arrived in New York.

Now, this is the letter. Lee is out of the Marines, and he stays home with me 3 days. And I have publicly stated—and this came out of my book this morning—Lee came home September 14, 1959. He stayed 3 days with me. Said he would like to travel on a ship working his way. Possibly export and import. He remarked he could make more money that way.

The next page is the letter he sent me, and then came the news of his being in Russia.

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, sir. This is just dated September. He was released from the Marine Corps on September 14th—I believe I am correct, Mr. Rankin.

And then this is—well, the date on the envelope is September 19th. He stayed with me 3 days.

"Dear Mother, well, I have booked passage on a ship to Europe. I would have had to sooner or later, and I think it is best to go now."

"I would have had to sooner or later, so I think it is best that I go now. Just remember above all else that my values are very different from Robert or us, and it is difficult to tell you how I feel. Just remember this is what I must do. I did not tell you about my plans because you could hardly be expected to understand. I did not see Lillian while I was here. I will write you again as soon as I land. Lee."

Mrs. Oswald. That is what I want to tell you. All of this speculation, gentlemen. And that is why I say the Warren Commission—unless they hear my story and the witnesses involved, cannot arrive at a true conclusion.

A few days later you get headlines. "Fort Worth Boy Has Defected to Russia." And I made the letter public. This letter says to his mother he is defecting to Russia—right? That is the way you would read the letter.

It is easily read this way when you think a boy has defected to Russia. So you would read the letter that way.

202 Mr. Dulles. Mr. Rankin, do we have correspondence while he was in the Marines?

Mr. Rankin. Mrs. Oswald, do you recall any letters you received from your son during the time he was in the Marines?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, sir. I have a special delivery letter. You see, gentlemen, that is why I have tried to explain to you before—if I could have gone from the story we would not all be so mixed up. This is a letter from the Marines saying he is going to contact the Red Cross—when I told him about my illness.

Mr. Rankin. Well, that is the correspondence in regard to his getting out of the Marines because of your need of his help and support.

Mr. Rankin. Now, except for that correspondence, you don't have any other correspondence from him while he was in the Marines?

What has happened, Mr. Rankin—when Lee stayed with me the 3 days, he left his seabag with me. And that is why I have his discharge papers and things. And then, as you know, when the defection broke, I had no place to go. So the lady I was working for even threatened to call the police, because of the defection. I was working for $5 a week, gentlemen, taking care of her son. But I was happy to have a home and food, because I had had this accident, and I could rest. But my salary was $5 for the whole week. But when the news broke, she didn't want to be involved with anyone who had a son as a defector, so she asked me to leave. It was a very cold winter night. And I said I would.

When I went out to his home, I brought Lee's seabag, Mr. Rankin, with me. And I stayed there just a short time. And Robert Oswald would not let me have Lee's seabag. And there were a few letters in there from Lee in the seabag.

You can read this letter, then, this way. That he is telling me he is defecting to Russia.

After three days he is leaving his mother. But we had a talk. When Lee arrived home—and I will go into this thoroughly. I was ashamed when he arrived home. I was in a one bedroom and bath and a small kitchen. And my son came in about 2 o'clock in the morning. I have never lived lavishly, but we have always had a nice clean little moderate house. And, remember, I was destitute. I had no money. You have the affidavits evidently from the Red Cross. If you don't, I have copies.

The first thing I said to him, "Honey, the first thing we will have to do is to move and find a decent place."

I had a studio couch, which has two parts. The top part I put on the floor for my son to sleep on that particular night, in the one room.

I brought the subject up immediately. I said, "The first thing we will have to do is find a place. I am well enough that I can babysit or pick up a few dollars. And until I settle my claim, I think we will be able to manage, and you will get a job."

He said, "No, Mother, my mind is made up. I have thought this out thoroughly. I have no background. If I stay here, I will get a job for about $35 a week, and we will both be in a position that you are in. I want to board a ship and work in the import and export business, where there is some real money."

Mrs. Oswald. I will tell you about this—please, gentlemen, I will have to break if you don't. This is a very, very serious life that I have gone through.

Mrs. Oswald. Mr. Rankin, you mentioned about the $1,600. Now. I don't know if you know for a fact that Lee had $1,600. It was publicized in the paper that he had $1,600, which is right here in 1959.

Mrs. Oswald. No, sir, he gave me $100. And he and his brother Robert had arrived. And I am assuming it was over me because Robert did not help me. And I have made that public in the Red Cross papers, that he had a family of their own, that they probably thought their duty was to their family. I had no help from the other two boys. And he gave me $100, and I stayed in this little place a few weeks, and then I got the job for $5 a week. And that is Lee's defection.

So here is my only contact with Lee in Russia, at the Metropole Hotel—this is dated December 18, 1959.

Now, I have settled with the insurance company, and I have a little money. So I sent a check to Lee for $20. And this is his little note. The only contact I had with Lee from the time of his immediate defection until the State Department 2 years later informed me of my son's address. And this is his little note that he needs money.

Now, we are speculating, as you will admit, because you thought the letter to the school was from me. And you will have to admit that I have given you new evidence. And so maybe Lee didn't have $1,600, because he is asking for money there. That is when he is right in Moscow.

Mrs. Oswald. He had to make passage, and have some money. I don't know if it took $1,600. I do not know, sir. But I am saying 5 weeks later he needs money. We haven't gotten to this file yet.

I will quote from a newspaper, the Star Telegram, 1959, his defection, by Mrs. Aline Mosby, who interviewed Lee in Moscow. It says here, "I saw my mother always as a worker, always with less than we could use, he said. He insisted his childhood was happy despite his poverty."

We had a very happy family. He insisted—this is the story in 1959. Lee had a normal childhood.

And now he is criticizing the United States. He says, "Many things bothered him in the United States. Race discrimination, harsh treatment of underdog, Communists and hate." Then on the other letter he is going to Russia to write a book. And there is another story and another story. And all kind of stories. So what are we to believe, gentlemen. Is he throwing us off the track because he is an agent. We are talking about speculation and newspaper papers, and so on. And we know when he came back that he did go to Mrs. Bates, a Fort Worth stenographer, and talked about the Soviet Union. She made it public. And he only had $10. And he did not finish that story. And she said he was very nervous. And he did not say he was an agent. But she got the impression that he was an agent. This has been made public in the Star Telegram—if you do not have that, I do.

Mr. Rankin. Mrs. Oswald, is this the photostatic copy of the letter about his booking passage?

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 200 and received in evidence.)

Mr. Rankin. Now, this one starting, "Dear Mother, received your letter, and so forth"—that is the one about the Marines, when he was asking you about getting out of the service and your need, and so forth?

Mrs. Oswald. This is the letter which shows the different character of the boy that the newspapers are making of him—when I wrote and told him I had sold my furniture, and that my compensation and medical was stopped, immediately my son sends a special delivery letter, and that is the letter "received your letter, was very unhappy. I have contacted the Red Cross, and they will contact you." This is a nice boy to do this immediately, when he finds his mother is in trouble. He is not a louse, like the papers have been making him out. He might have some bad points, but so do all of us.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 201 for identification.)

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 201 and received in evidence.)

Mr. Rankin. Then, Mrs. Oswald, the other one that you received from Russia, with the check and the little note from your son Lee is the one I am showing you?

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 202 for identification.)

Mr. Rankin. We offer in evidence Exhibit 202 and ask leave to substitute a copy.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 202 and received in evidence.)

Mrs. Oswald. I have followed up that request and sent the $20 bill in an envelope. And I have all of this. But I am not going to go through all this paper. You will have all of this.

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, that is what I am going to tell you. So I put a $20 bill immediately in an envelope and sent it to Lee. And then after I thought about it, I thought of a foreign money order. And gentlemen I have all this in black and white for you, and this gentleman will copy and have it—everything I am saying. So then I went to the bank and I got a foreign money order for $25, and I sent it to Lee. It all went air mail. But it came back about 2 months later, Mr. Dulles—the $20 bill I got back in cash and the Chase National Bank foreign money order, that check came back in cash. I will have that proof for you. I understand it comes back by boat, and that is why it took so long.

So I had no way of knowing that my contact with my son was successful. I didn't know until about 2 months later he had not received my money. And by that time—well, I didn't know where he was, because I came to Washington in January of 1961, had a conference with Mr. Boster—Mr. Stanfield——

Representative Ford. I thought you answered in response to a question I asked, when you thought he was an agent, you said when he defected.

Mrs. Oswald. I might have said defected to Russia. No, sir; I never thought Lee was a Russian agent.

Representative Ford. I meant an agent of the United States. It is my205 recollection that you said when he defected to the Soviet Union, you then thought he was an American agent.

Mrs. Oswald. All right. I might be letting things out the way I am going. And I am very unhappy about this. Had I started with his childhood I could have worked up to age 15 very peacefully, and you would have gotten everything. I hope I am not forgetting anything important. But now we have letters from the State Department.

Well, my trip to Washington has to come before the letters to the State Department, sir. So I am in conference with the three men. I showed them the letter from the—the application from the Albert Schweitzer College, and Lee's mail had been coming to my home. I didn't know whether he was living or dead. I did not want to mail these papers. So I made a personal trip to Washington.

I arrived at Washington 8 o'clock in the morning. I took a train, and borrowed money on an insurance policy I have, which I have proof. I had a bank account of $36, which I drew out and bought a pair of shoes. I have all that in proof, sir, the date that I left for the train. I was 3 nights and 2 days on the train, or 2 days and 3 nights. Anyhow, I took a coach and sat up.

I arrived at the station 8 o'clock in the morning and I called the White House. A Negro man was on the switchboard, and he said the offices were not open yet, they did not open until 9 o'clock. He asked if I would leave my number. I asked to speak to the President. And he said the offices were not open yet. I said, "Well, I have just arrived here from Fort Worth, Tex., and I will call back at 9 o'clock."

So I called back at 9 o'clock. Everybody was just gracious to me over the phone. Said that President Kennedy was in a conference, and they would be happy to take any message. I asked to speak to Secretary Rusk, and they connected me with that office. And his young lady said he was in a conference, but anything she could do for me. I said, "Yes. I have come to town about a son of mine who is lost in Russia. I do want to speak—I would like personally to speak to Secretary Rusk." So she got off the line a few minutes. Whether she gave him the message or what I do not know. She came back and said, "Mrs. Oswald, Mr. Rusk"—so evidently she handed him a note—and Mr. Boster was on the line—"that you talk to Mr. Boster, who is special officer in charge of Soviet Union affairs"—if I am correct. And Mr. Boster was on the line. I told him who I was. He said, "Yes, I am familiar with the case, Mrs. Oswald." He said, "Will an 11 o'clock appointment be all right with you?" This is 9 o'clock in the morning. So I said—this is quite an interesting story—I said, "Mr. Boster that would be fine. But I would rather not talk with you." I didn't know who Mr. Boster was. I said, "I would rather talk with Secretary of State Rusk. However, if I am unsuccessful in talking with him, then I will keep my appointment with you."

So I asked Mr. Boster—I said, "Mr. Boster, would you please recommend a hotel that would be reasonable?" He said, "I don't know how reasonable, Mrs. Oswald, but I recommend the Washington Hotel. It will be near the State Department and convenient to you."

So I went to the Washington Hotel. And as we know, gentlemen, there were nothing but men. They asked me if I had reservation. I said, "No, I didn't, but Mr. Boster of the State Department recommended that I come here." So they fixed me up with a room. I took a bath and dressed. I went to the appointment—because this is 9:30, I am on the phone, and I had to take a cab to the hotel. I arrived at Mr. Boster's office at 10:30.

But before arriving at Mr. Boster's office. I stopped at a telephone in the corridor, and I called Dean Rusk's office again, because I didn't want to see Mr. Boster, and I asked to speak to Dean Rusk. And the young lady said, "Mrs. Oswald, talk to Mr. Boster. At least it is a start."

So then I entered around the corridor into Mr. Boster's office. I have all the pictures of the State Department and everything to prove this story is true. I told the young lady. "I am Mrs. Oswald. I have an 11 o'clock appointment."206 Mr. Boster came out and said, "Mrs. Oswald, I am awfully glad you came early, because we are going to have a terrible snow storm, and we have orders to leave early in order to get home."

So he called Mr. Stanfield—the arrangements had been made—now, the other man—I don't have that name here for you, Mr. Rankin.

So then we were in conference. So I showed the papers, like I am showing here. And I said, "Now, I know you are not going to answer me, gentlemen, but I am under the impression that my son is an agent." "Do you mean a Russian agent?" I said, "No, working for our Government, a U.S. agent. And I want to say this: That if he is, I don't appreciate it too much, because I am destitute, and just getting over a sickness," on that order.

I had the audacity to say that. I had gone through all of this without medical, without money, without compensation. I am a desperate woman. So I said that.

Mrs. Oswald. They did not answer that. I even said to them, "No, you won't tell me." So I didn't expect them to answer that.

Mrs. Oswald. No, sir. I didn't think that my son should have gone—in a foreign country, and me being alone. What I was saying was that I think my son should be home with me, is really what I implied.

Mrs. Oswald. In the words that I said before—I didn't come out and say I want my son home. But I implied that if he was an agent, that I thought that he needed to be home.

Mr. Rankin. Did you say anything about believing that your son might know full well what he was doing in trying to defect to the Soviet Union, he might like it better there than he did here?

Mrs. Oswald. I do not remember saying this. I know what I did say, and they agreed with me. I said—because I remember this distinctly. I said, "Now, he has been exploited all through the paper as a defector. If he is a defector"—because as we stated before, I don't know he is an agent, sir—and if he is a defector, that is his privilege, as an individual.

And they said, "Mrs. Oswald, we want you to know that we feel the same way about it." That was their answer.

Mr. Rankin. Did you say anything about possibly he liked the Soviet way of life better than ours?

Mrs. Oswald. I may have. I do not remember, sir. Honestly. I may have said that. I recall that they agreed with me, and they said, "We want him also to do what he wants to do."

So now this is January 2, 1961, is my trip to Washington. Approximately 8 weeks later, on March 22, 1961—which is 8 weeks—I received a letter from the State Department informing me of my son's address.

Mr. Rankin. Do you recall that they assured you there was no evidence he was an agent?

Mrs. Oswald. I am positive. I said to them, "Of course, I don't expect you to answer me." No, sir, there was nothing mentioned about the agent at all. And in fact, I would think, just as a layman, that the State Department would not even consider discussing that with me. But I mean it was not discussed. I am positive of that.

Mr. Rankin. If they recorded in a memorandum as of that date that they did say that to you, that would be incorrect?

Mrs. Oswald. That is incorrect, emphatically incorrect. That is incorrect. Because I said, "I don't expect you to tell me. But if he is an agent," I didn't think it was the thing to do.

Well, on January 21 was my trip to Washington, 1961. Approximately 8207 weeks later, on March 22, 1961, I received a letter from the State Department informing me of my son's address, which you probably have, if you don't, sir, I have the copies. And also stating that my son wishes to return back to the United States—just 8 weeks after my trip to Washington.

Now, you want to know why I think my son is an agent. And I have been telling you all along.

Here is a very important thing why my son was an agent. On March 22 I receive a letter of his address and stating that my son wishes to return back to the United States. You have that, sir?

Mrs. Oswald. On April 30, 1961, he marries a Russian girl—approximately 5 weeks later.

Now, why does a man who wants to come back to the United States, 5 weeks later—here is the proof—April 30, 1961, is the wedding date—marry a Russian girl? Because I say—and I may be wrong—the U.S. Embassy has ordered him to marry this Russian girl. And a few weeks later, May 16, 1961, he is coming home with the Russian girl. And as we know, he does get out of the Soviet Union with the Russian girl, with money loaned to him by the U.S. Embassy. I may be wrong, gentlemen, but two on two in my books makes four.

I have many more things that can go to this, and that has been published. I will probably never know whether my son was an agent, because I do not expect to be told these facts. But isn't it peculiar that a boy is coming home, and the Embassy informs me of that—I have all this, Mr. Rankin, and you know I do. You will have the copies. And then 5 weeks later he marries a Russian girl. And the proof of it is that he does come home with the Russian girl in a short length of time. And Lee would have been home 1 year earlier. But because of the lack of money to come home.

Mr. Rankin. Did you ever ask him whether he married the Russian girl because they ordered him to?

Mrs. Oswald. No, sir. I have never asked Lee any questions of that kind. The only question I asked Lee was when they were living with me that 1 month, I said, "Lee, I want to know one thing. Why is it you came back to the United States when you had a job and you were married to a Russian girl," and they sent me lovely gifts and photographs and everything. So they seemed to be well off.

I have a beautiful scarf—they sent tea, boxes of candy, which the postage is terrific. He says, "not even Marina knows that." And that is the only question I have ever asked my son. This may be hard to believe. But I have explained to you over and over that I think we, as individuals, have a right to our own life.

Mr. Rankin. You saw your daughter-in-law and your son living together with you, didn't you, for some time?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, they were definitely in love with each other. Yes, I think they were in love with each other.

Mr. Rankin. Did you think at that time it was just because he was an agent and ordered to marry her that he married her?

Mrs. Oswald. No. I would say this. This is purely speculation. He knew Marina, and he loved Marina. They met at a dance. So that was—he had a girl friend. We are saying if he is an agent—I have to say "if." Then he tells the Embassy that he is in love with a Russian girl. And so it is a good idea to bring the Russian girl to the United States. He will have contacts.

Now, when I was in Mrs. Paine's home, on the table was a lot of papers from Lee. The Daily Worker I happen to know about. And many, many subversive—now, I say if Lee is going to assassinate a President, or Lee is anything that he is otherwise than an agent, Lee would not have all these things, he would not have his finger in everything.

He would not be reading only communism and Marxism, that he would be a fanatic about that one thing and have a cause to assassinate the President.

But that is not the picture of Lee Harvey Oswald. Lee has his hand in everything.

Mrs. Oswald. Well, Cuba—because we know in New Orleans he was arrested for Fair Play for Cuba. He read the Daily Worker. And the other ones I don't know. But it was in the paper. There is plenty of subversive material.

Mr. Rankin. What about books? Did he read books much while he was living with you?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, he read continuously. He went immediately to the library upon coming to the United States. He read continuously. All kinds of books. I tried, when he defected—I went to the library to find out the kind of literature that Lee read. But they could not give me that information. They said the only way they could give that information was when a book was overdue, and was out. But otherwise they have no record.

Now, it has been stated in the paper—maybe New Orleans is different, I don't know, but I know in Fort Worth I could not get the information. Stated he had books—the assassination of Huey Long and things of that sort. They must have a different system. Because in Fort Worth, Tex., they do not have that system. The only way they can tell is if a book is out. But I know Lee read. And I have stated in 1959 all of this.

Anyway, from Vincent Peale on down to anything you want to mention. Lee read continuously.

Mr. Rankin. Now, was there any time that Marina said anything to you to lead you to believe that she thought your son, Lee, married her because he was an agent?

Mrs. Oswald. I believe that Marina loved him in a way. But I believe that Marina wanted to come to America. I believe that Lee had talked America to her, and she wanted to come to America. I say this for a lot of little things that happened—that Marina wanted to come to America. Maybe she loved him. I am sure she did, anyway. She said that she did.

Mr. Rankin. I am not clear about this being ordered to marry her. You don't mean that your son didn't love her.

Mrs. Oswald. Well, I could mean that—if he is an agent, and he has a girl friend, and it is to the benefit of the country that he marry this girl friend, and the Embassy helped him get this Russian girl out of Russia—let's face it, well, whether he loved her or not, he would take her to America, if that would give him contact with Russians, yes, sir.

Mrs. Oswald. I do not know whether my son loved her or not. But I am telling you why he would do this—in 5-weeks time. Now, you have a 5-week period in here.

Mr. Rankin. I understand that. But I think it is a very serious thing to say about your son, that he would do a thing like that to a girl.

Mrs. Oswald. No, sir, it is not a serious thing. I know a little about the CIA, and so on, the U-2, Powers, and things that have been made public. They go through any extreme for their country. I do not think that would be serious for him to marry a Russian girl and bring her here, so he would have contact. I think that is all part of an agent's duty.

Mr. Rankin. Have you got anything more that caused you to think he was an agent?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, I have things that have been coming out in the paper. And I am not the only one that thinks my son is an agent. There has been many, many publications questioning whether Lee was an agent or not because of circumstances, and so on, and so forth, through the newspapers.

209 Mrs. Oswald. Well, that is why I wanted to go into the story. I wouldn't have become emotionally upset had I started in sequence.

I told you about him not wanting me to see that program. And then the letters. There is so much. About him being an agent—all of his correspondence with the Embassy in Moscow. I have the letters in the hotel. One of the letters states that the Russians cannot hold you—"the Russians cannot hold you. You are an American citizen. You are not a bona fide Russian resident." We have the letters. You have a copy of the letter, Mr. Rankin.

And "if you will show this letter to the Russians, they cannot hold you in Minsk."

Mrs. Oswald. The point I am trying to bring there is Lee has always been an American citizen—according to all of my papers from the State Department.

Mrs. Oswald. And they would say that about anyone—all right, I will grant you that. You are probably right.

Mrs. Oswald. Because he has the sanction of the American Embassy all through this affair.

Mrs. Oswald. All right—so you are telling me that. But this man is married to a Russian girl, and does come back within a short time, and could have come back sooner. It was the lack of money. And that is another thing.

The State Department repeatedly kept writing me, and I have the letters, for the money. I have copies of my letters also. I could not raise the money. I said I had a '54 Buick car, and all I could get a loan on was $250. They wrote back and said could you ask some friends, or do you have any relatives—800 and some odd dollars they needed. And I went to 12 very prominent people in Vernon, Tex.—one who is a very respected citizen that they recommended me to go, who has a citizen award. And I felt very confident maybe he would help me. I told him that my son, who was a very young man, who was an American citizen, is trying to get back to the United States, but there is lack of money, and if he knew of any way possible he could help me.

He said "You mean he is a defector?" I said, "Possibly so. The paper has said he was a defector." And he said, "Well, I am sorry, Mrs. Oswald, but these boys that are in the service and defect, I don't have any use for."

And I said, "Do you go to church, sir?" He said, "Yes, I do." And I said, "Probably you go to church to put your hat on. Because here is a boy. Let's say he has made a mistake. He has gone to Russia. But let's say he realizes now he has made a mistake, and he wants to come back. Are you telling me you won't help him?"

"That is what I am telling you, Mrs. Oswald. I don't have any use for anybody." Which Senator Tower said that he would not help Lee—made it public. These are nice people saying this. I say the ones who are down and out are the ones that need the help. This boy was a young boy. Let's say he is not an agent. Let's say he defected to Russia. Yet he wants to come back. He deserved a helping hand. I went to 12 people. I did not beg. But I presented my case. And not a one offered to help.

Mr. Rankin. Didn't you understand that the State Department had to try to find out if they could—or you or your son could get the money from other sources before they could advance the money?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, sir, I understand that. I am trying to tell you that I tried awfully hard, but with no success.

Mr. Rankin. So they were just trying to do their duty in that regard, were they not?

Mr. Rankin. You don't think that makes him an agent, just because they asked you——

Mrs. Oswald. I think—well, as you say, they would probably help anyone. And then again, because he is married to a Russian girl, and because all these210 documents and everything are handled through the U.S. Embassy. And because of my trip to Washington—which was red carpet treatment. Let's say, gentlemen, if a woman gets on the phone at 9 o'clock and has an appointment at 11 o'clock with three big men, that is wonderful treatment.

Mr. Rankin. Well, that shouldn't be held against them that they treated you nicely.

Mrs. Oswald. No, I have told you, Mr. Rankin, they were most gracious to me. The Administration was most gracious to me.

Mr. Rankin. I don't see why you should think that because they treated you nicely, that was any sign he was an agent.

Mrs. Oswald. Well, maybe you don't see why. But this is my son. And this is the way I think, because I happen to know all of the other things that you don't know—the life and everything. I happen to think this. And this is my privilege to think this way. And I can almost back it up with these things.

Mrs. Oswald. But I do know this, and I have stated this. I have approximately 900 and some odd dollars. And I lost my job. That can be proven. I was a nurse on the 3 to 11 shift, working in a rest home, for a very wealthy woman. And it would have been at least a year, a year and a half case. She is not that bad off. She is just an invalid. She is going to live quite a while.

When I returned home from the Six Flags on Thanksgiving Day, the Deputy Sheriff at Fort Worth, Tex. went to get my pay. And the nurse, the 7 to 3:30 o'clock nurse—I went 3 to 11—and my patient cried and said that they were awfully sorry, but they could not have me back on the case. That the woman at the rest home refused to have me.

Now, I was not working for the rest home. I was doing private duty. But I understand that this is her place of business, and my presence there might have been—hurt her money part. But this is our Christian way of life. The boy was accused of killing the President, with no proof. And then the mother loses her job.

Now, that is my position. You asked me the question. But Marina has $35,000 publicly. What she has, I do not know.

Now, gentlemen, $35,000 is a lot of money in donation dribs and drabs—is a very large sum of money. I question where does that money come from. Yes, some of it could be coming from Lee's back pay. And she might have more than that. That was the amount made public—$35,000. And here is a mother without a job. And everybody knows I have no money. And my contributions are 900 and some odd dollars.

Mr. Rankin. Now, when you say that money that Marina has might come from your son's back pay, what do you base that on? Just speculation?

Mrs. Oswald. I am basing all of this on speculation. Sir, if I had proof, I would not be taking my energy and my emotional capacity to bring all this out—if I had proof he was an agent.

Mr. Rankin. When they asked you to contribute some money to help bring him home from Russia, did it occur to you that if he is an agent the government could just pay his way?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes. But they don't want the public to know he is an agent. They want me to have all of this. They don't want the public to know. I am going around to people—you brought up a very good point. I am going around trying to get money for this boy to come home, so the public knows. Sure, they could have given him the money to come home.

Mr. Rankin. Are you trying to get money now? I don't understand what you mean by that?

Mrs. Oswald. I think, Mr. Rankin, you asked me the question that if he was211 an agent, that the Government would have given him the money to come home without any trouble. I say just the opposite. That it was a very good point. If he was an agent, it would make it hard for him to get the money to come home.

Remember, I am under the impression he is coming home with this Russian girl in order to continue his work. So he cannot be given the money immediately to come home, because his mother might tell the story to someone. Lee was almost a year coming home for lack of money. So then they have an excuse to loan him the money.

Mr. Rankin. Did you ever learn that he was getting money from the Red Cross in addition to his pay—that is the Russian or Soviet Red Cross, when he was over there?

Mr. Rankin. You didn't know he was supposed to have gotten an amount equal to the pay he received from his job. He got that from the Red Cross.

Mr. Rankin. He got so much a month from his job in the electronics factory. You understood that.

Mrs. Oswald. He was not in an electronics factory. I thought he was working in a radio factory. All right, fine.

Mr. Rankin. And then he got an equal amount, we understand, from the Red Cross of the Soviet Union. Did you know that?

Mrs. Oswald. No, sir. Now, explain to me—when you say the Red Cross of the Soviet Union. Is that our American Red Cross in the Soviet Union, or this is part of the Russian Red Cross?

Mr. Rankin. Their Red Cross is somewhat different than ours, I understand, because the Government has so much to do with activity there that the Red Cross is closely associated with the Government itself, while in this country, as you know, it is generally supported by the public.

Now, one other thing pertaining to this. When Marina and Lee returned from Russia, and they were at my daughter-in-law's home, Robert's home, and I came in from the job in the country to see them, I said—up until this time, gentlemen, I thought Russians were peasant-looking people, like the public. And I said, "Lee, she doesn't look Russian at all. She looks American." He said, "Of course, mother, that is why I married her, is because she looks American." In front of my daughter-in-law and Robert. He bragged that she looked like an American girl. And there is all little things of that sort.

As I say, I cannot remember everything in my life, because I am going—this is way back—in a few hours time, Mr. Rankin. But there is many, many things that come up.

Mr. Rankin. How does that show that he was an agent at that time. I don't understand that.

Mrs. Oswald. I don't either. But I am telling you the expressions. He is making a point. And what I was going to make a point—Lee loved his work, and Lee loved the Marines. Lee loved the Marines, Mr. Rankin. Even coming back—he was a military man. And that has also been stated in the paper, that he had a military manner about him. I think District Attorney Wade remarked something of that order. People have noticed that.

Mr. Rankin. What made you think he loved the Marines? Was there something he did when he came back?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes. He loved the Marines because his brother was a Marine,212 for one thing. And John Edward—that is his career—14 years. My brother was in the Navy. His father was a veteran. We are a servicemen family. And I know Lee loved the Marines. I told you how he read the manual before he left. And on leaves, coming home, Lee would brag. He even said when he came home from Japan, "mother, my stay in Japan, just the trip alone would have cost about $2,000."

Now, Lee, I know also, was in the Air Force of the Marines, and he went to Biloxi, Miss., for schooling. Lee has had quite a bit of schooling. And Lee spoke Russian equivalent to 1 year when he defected to Russia. I have that on his application from the Albert Schweitzer College. And Lee spoke and wrote Russian fluently when he went to Russia. So Lee learns Russian in the Marines.

Mr. Rankin. Did he ever talk about reenlisting into the Marines after he returned?

Mrs. Oswald. Well, when Lee returned he was with me 3 days, and then, of course, he went over to visit Robert's house. So actually we didn't talk. I was trying to find a home. And I didn't think he would go. I was hoping that Lee would not go on the ship and work. I was hoping he would stay home. We were interrupted before. When he said to me about, that he wanted to work on a ship in the import and export business, I started to tell you I agreed with him. And this is how you have to do—particularly when you are a woman. A father could tell the man, "You are not going to do this." But I went along with that. And then the next day I said, "Lee, why don't you stay," and I went into that—"until I settle my claim, and I can babysit and we can get along." He said, "No, my mind is made up. If I stay, we will both be in these circumstances." So on the third day—I knew he wanted to do this, but I didn't think he was going to do it for a month or two. But on the third day he came with his suitcase in the room and he said, "Mother, I am off." So since his mind was made up, I told him goodby.

Mrs. Oswald. No, the three days he was home. That was the conversation, about him going on a ship. I saw his passport. And his passport was stamped "import and export" on his passport.

Mrs. Oswald. No. What I am saying is that I saw the passport with big writing "export and import." I think it was blue. I did not read the passport, because Lee was there, but I happened to see the passport, "export and import" stamped.

Whether he had another passport, I do not know. I didn't ask. I am saying this—and God knows I am telling you the truth. I am just this type person. It is because of my life.

Mr. Rankin. Did you know that he spoke Russian at that time, when he had this passport?

Mrs. Oswald. No, sir; I did not know. The only time I knew that he spoke Russian is what came out in the news. But when I really knew was Lee's application for the Albert Schweitzer College. Shall we go into that—the application?

Mrs. Oswald. Now, the first that I knew—no, I am wrong. It is not the first I knew. I had received a letter from Lee while in the Marines before he knew of my trouble, stating that he was accepted by the Albert Schweitzer College. And that letter was in the sea bag that I told you about, that I do not have.

Mrs. Oswald. The other letter would have been—let's see. Lee was told in July about my trouble. And the other letter I would say would be about May or June. This is March 22. I received this in care of Lee. And you see, sir, I have a lot of addresses, because I am now living in these homes.

"Due to a number of circumstances, we found ourselves forced to make a slight change in the arrival and departure dates of the third term. The first213 lecture will be held on Tuesday afternoon 16.00 o'clock, April 19, instead of taking place on the 21st with the arrival day on the 20th. It will mean that the students arrive either on the evening of Monday, the 18th, or before noon on April 19th. This change, however, makes it possible to end the term on the weekend of July 2. We hope that you will still be able to fit this change of dates into your travel plan. Should it not be possible for you to arrive on the earlier date we, of course, understand the difficulty. In the latter case, please drop us a line."

So that is how I knew that Lee—I opened his mail. I didn't know whether my son was living or dead, sir. And that is how I knew—I won't go into all this. He made a deposit. I have all of this for you.

While at the State Department, the State Department told me that Lee had gone to Finland before Russia. And I did not know that.

Now, Lee had applied at a college in Finland, evidently, because on the application it states such a fact. I did not know, because the paper just said he arrived in Russia—until I went to the State Department.

So what I am trying to say—I may be forgetting a lot of important things, because I am just now remembering what the State Department told me.

This is Lee's original application, that you cannot possibly have had. This is the only application there is. So this is something new for you gentlemen. I am not going to go through it all, because you have a copy. But I am going to show you the thinking of this young man.

"Special interests: Religious, vocational, literary, sports, and hobbies. Philosophy, psychology, ideology, football, baseball, tennis, stamp collecting"—Lee had a stamp collecting book. "Nature of private reading: Jack London, Darwin, Norman Vincent Peale, scientific books, philosophy, and so on."

"Active part taken in organizations. Student body movement in school for control of juvenile delinquency, member YMCA, and AYA association."

Mrs. Oswald. I had contacted Congressman Jim Wright, that has helped me—helped me to locate Lee through the State Department. But Mr. Jim Wright was not successful.

And from the trip to Washington, I went to the building where Mr. Jim Wright worked, and I went in to tell the secretary about the trip to Washington. And that I had heard from Lee.

Well, I had information here that Lee had paid a deposit. So I had written the school and asked if we were entitled to the return of the deposit, since he didn't show up. But I did not get an answer.

So Mr. Wright's secretary said that, "Mrs. Oswald, I will write and see what we can do."

So she wrote, and then they sent the application and everything back to Jim Wright's office. And that is how I got the application.

Mrs. Oswald. It is in Switzerland. Albert Schweitzer College, Chur Walden, Graubuenen, Switzerland. "Application Form. High School. Completed high school by correspondence."

I have that. His original correspondence in the service—completed high school.

214 "Vocational Interests if decided upon: To be a short story writer on contemporary American life."

Now, "General statement regarding reasons for wishing to attend the Albert Schweitzer College: In order to acquire a fuller understanding of that subject which interests me most, philosophy, to meet with Europeans who can broaden my scope of understanding, to receive formal education by institutes of high standing and character, to broaden my knowledge of German, and to live in a healthy climate and good moral atmosphere."

This is very good thinking, gentlemen. We are getting a picture now of the boy which has been not told in the paper.

I have read this one particular statement at three press conferences. The first press conference was about 80 members there, from foreign lands and everything. Nothing was printed. Then I had a second press conference with 16 men and I said, "Now, I am tired of the things that are being said about my family, myself, and Lee. We are not perfect. But I know there is some good things. And I have read a particular statement that has not been printed. Let's see if one of you has the courage to print it."

There was 16 there. That did not come out. I had a third conference, and I said the same thing and quoted this. That was not made public in the paper.

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, "Plans to be pursued after the period at Albert Schweitzer College: To attend the short summer course of the University of Turku, Turku, Finland."

Now, I have a brochure. This I cannot understand—from this college, dated 1960. I have this for you, Mr. Rankin—dated 1960.

And the men in the State Department told me he went to Finland before Russia. But this is dated 1960. I have it for you.

Mr. Rankin. I want to ask you about that. Do you think he meant this at the time?

Mrs. Oswald. I do not know. I am saying—and I am going to stick to my story—that Lee is an agent, then a lot of this is a lot of baloney. I cannot make it any stronger. I don't know, sir. The boy is gone, and I didn't hear from his own lips.

Mrs. Oswald. I do not know, sir, because I have not had this from the boy. I am speculating. But I have a lot of documents to sustain my speculation.

Mr. Rankin. Now, this, you cannot tell one way or another about whether he is an agent by this.

Mrs. Oswald. I cannot tell by anything he is an agent, if you want proof. I am becoming a little discouraged about this, because I keep telling you—I did not have proof, sir. But I am giving you documents leading to it.

Mr. Rankin. All I am trying to find out is what you have. You are giving us that. I am also trying to find out whatever proof you have about these various things that we can rely on.

Mrs. Oswald. Well, I am going to state once and for all, because it upsets me very much emotionally. And I have stated before, I do not have proof, sir. I do not have proof of an agent. I do not have proof my son is innocent. I do not have proof.

Mrs. Oswald. Of anything. It is just as I feel, like the Dallas police do not have proof my son shot President Kennedy. If they have anything, it is circumstantial evidence. I have as much circumstantial evidence here that Lee was an agent as the Dallas police have that he shot President Kennedy.

"Familiarity with foreign languages, if any. Russian equal in fluency to about 1 year's education or schooling. I also speak a very little German. General condition of health: Good. Have you ever had any serious illness or nervous disturbances: No."

"General condition of health: Good. Have you had a serious illness or nervous disturbance, no. If so, explain."

Mrs. Oswald. No, sir. I do not. And that is dated the 3d, 4th, '59. And this is another application form from the Albert Schweitzer College.

"I hereby apply to attend the student course from April 12, 1960 to June 27, 1960. Surname: Oswald. Christian name: Lee Harvey. Mr. Age, 20. Mother tongue: English. Other language you know: Russian. Equal in fluency to 1 year of schooling. Occupation: Student. Nationality: American. Exact address: MCAF, MACS-9, Santa Ana, California, USA. Remarks: Please inform me of the amount of the deposit if required so I can forward it and confirm my reservation and show my sincerity of purpose. Thank you. Lee Harvey Oswald."

Well, he did, and I have this here, make a deposit of $25, which the school informed me that they would not be able to refund, because it would take care of any incidentals that had occurred for him not appearing.

Gentlemen, it is 10 minutes to five, I believe I had a full day. I worked last night on the papers. I came early to have copies made.

This was a complete story, I believe, and I have at least three other complete stories. And I have a story of my life that I believe from newspaper accounts that you will be very surprised also to know the type person I am. But according to the newspaper—of course, really nothing bad has been said about me, otherwise than one particular instance. That I can prove and have witnesses that it is not the case.

The Chairman. Mrs. Oswald, you said you had three more stories. Just name them. Name what stories they are, so we will know what they are.

It would be Lee's life, sir, from early childhood, and the psychiatric treatment in New York, that I want to tell you about.

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, sir, because we have finished that, because we went into that.

And then my life, from early childhood, which you have asked, Mr. Rankin, in a letter.

Now, I would like you to have this picture—if you have not seen it. And I will not comment on it. I want you to study it thoroughly, use a magnifying glass, if possible, and if you care to, we will discuss it.

There is another picture that I would like the Commission to get which, is in the Memorial Issue of President Kennedy—I think it is the Post. I will get that information for you.

Mr. Doyle. Would you like to advise the Commission generally what you believe they will find out from this?

Mrs. Oswald. I would rather not comment on that at this particular moment. I submit it to them for them to look over all the people, to study it. I have two. You may have that one for the record.

Mrs. Oswald. That is a picture of the book depository the day of the assassination of President Kennedy. And there are people in the picture.

Mrs. Oswald. And, again, I am saying—I cannot be sure this is the picture. But this right here. This girl with this baby could possibly be Marina and June.

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, sir, right next to the door. In back of her is the hat of a man. I have started this. I will continue.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 203, for identification.)

(The document heretofore marked for identification as Commission Exhibit No. 203 was received in evidence.)

Mrs. Oswald. Yes. This, I understand, was when President Kennedy was shot. He is supposed to be holding his throat here. And this is the car. This is right after he passed the book depository, when he is supposed to have been shot.

Wednesday, February 12, 1964
TESTIMONY OF MRS. MARGUERITE OSWALD RESUMED

The President's Commission met at 10 a.m. on February 12, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C.

Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Representative Hale Boggs and Representative Gerald R. Ford, members.

Also present were J. Lee Rankin, general counsel; Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel; and John F. Doyle, attorney for Mrs. Marguerite Oswald.

The Chairman. Mrs. Oswald, did you have anything you wanted to say to us this morning before we start the questioning?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, I meant to yesterday morning. I have two or three things that are worrying me.

Mr. Rankin, on Monday, when I testified that I had not been questioned officially, you told me that I had. And if I remember correctly, sir, you said that there was 28 pages of testimony, or was it 8 pages?

217 Mrs. Oswald. Well, Mr. Doyle, as my attorney—I am very concerned about that, because I want to know—if it is my testimony—because the little while—the testimony that I gave to the FBI when I entered the courthouse was approximately about 10 minutes. They immediately left to investigate. They did not talk to me again, sir.

And then the only other testimony that I gave on tape was the starting of Lee's defection at the Six Flags Inn, which I would say ran approximately 10 or 15 minutes. And that is the only time I have testified.

Now, if you have all this other testimony from me, I don't think it is fair, because I should know what I am supposed to have said. I need to know what I am supposed to have said.

The Chairman. Mrs. Oswald, whatever we have that we are told you have said, you and your attorney are entitled to see, and I will see that you can. We won't delay the proceeding this morning. But you may see it before you leave the building.

Mr. Rankin. Mr. Chairman, on that point, will it be satisfactory if we furnish a clean photostatic copy to Mr. Doyle?

There is an FBI agent by the name of Mr. John Fain. I will ask you, Mr. Rankin, if you have his address, or do you know about Mr. John Fain?

Mr. Rankin. I know of Mr. John Fain as one of the agents that had some interviews with your son.

Mrs. Oswald. Now, Mr. John Fain is the agent that I called upon myself after Lee's defection. I read where the Secret Service were investigating the family background, and I mistook it for the FBI. So I called the FBI and he came to my home. And he is the agent who recommended me to talk to Jim Wright and Sam Rayburn as a friend, and to write the letters.

Now, the one point I am going to bring out is this. When Lee returned from Russia and was at Robert's home, Mr. Fain—in the meantime he had come over to Robert and talked to him several times, and to me, supposedly as a friend—he said he was not on the case. I do not know this. But he came to Robert's home and said to Lee—my daughter-in-law is a witness there—"Lee, I am not on the case, but I would like you voluntarily to come to the office at your convenience and tell me your story, because I am interested in your case. Your mother was the one who contacted me. And I have been to see Robert. And I am quite interested in a young boy going to Russia. And you must have a story."

Then when Lee returned, his remark was "Well, he didn't believe me. He wanted me to take a lie detector test, which I refused."

Now, Mr. John Fain may have the story we are looking for, you see—because Lee went and gave the story.

I have information from Senator Mike Monroney that in March—I am ahead of my story.

The FBI agents now in Fort Worth have told me they do not know Mr. John Fain. I said I happen to know that is his name.

"Well, Mrs. Oswald, I worked in this office 9 years, and there has never been such a person as Mr. John Fain."

So I have investigated. And Senator Mike Monroney gave this information. He did work in the Fort Worth office from March 1949 to October 1962, and then he retired in January 15, 1963. He is not a man to retire as far as age, as far as I am concerned. I don't think Mr. John Fain is that old.

The neighbors that were interviewed in Fort Worth, Tex., by the FBI—this is from newspaper accounts—said that Lee always walked a few feet in218 front of his wife when they went walking, and they wondered about that, because it was very strange that he should walk ahead. I am speculating maybe, but maybe there is a reason that Lee would walk ahead to protect his wife.

The letter that is missing—and Mr. Doyle can verify this—the first letter to Lee is missing, that Lee wrote to me, rather, from Russia. And this letter stated—and it seemed to me, Mr. Rankin, I have seen it in one of the magazines—as I have stated I have sold several of Lee's letters. And maybe in the rush the letter got lost or stolen, I don't know.

"I repeat, do not send any money as it is not necessary for you to pay me back. You could send reading matter. I am lonesome to read. Also, send a can of Rise Shaving Cream, a Gillette Razor," and there was a book he wanted to read, I believe it was 1984.

Mrs. Oswald. This is a letter Lee sent to me that is missing—the first letter that Lee sent to me. And why I sent the money—because I had used his income tax return, which was $33, because Lee was lost—and I was destitute, and I knew Lee would never prosecute his mother for using his money, because Lee would help me.

Mrs. Oswald. A refund. And I got the refund and used it, sir. And I also used Lee's first check that came from the Marines. And I had no way of knowing where Lee was. And I used it. And so I offered to pay Lee back. And this letter has been printed. I have seen it. But I do not have it. So that is very important.

Mr. Doyle. As you had mentioned, you and I went through the papers that you had brought with you from your home in Texas to Washington, and we did not find such a letter among those papers.

Mrs. Oswald. That is right. I have those letters laminated, and I didn't give a list, and if it was taken I don't know what became of the letter.

Mrs. Oswald. References. And I am sure it was probably one of the letters I had sold, as I told you.

While in Dallas 2 weeks ago I had a press conference, and I called Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall Inc., 522 Browder, in Dallas.

Mr. Rankin. That was the photoengraving place that you talked about, wasn't it, in your testimony?

Mrs. Oswald. Photoengraving place. I talked to Mr. Stovall. Now, Lee was employed there, he informs me, from October 12th to April 6th, and I asked him about the young couple coming to the house, if he was the father of the girl, or if he knew of a couple who had a Russian—the girl had a Russian father, the grandfather, as I testified.

Mrs. Oswald. No, sir, he said, no. And he didn't know about that. He said—this is the part—that Lee had worked at a place prior to his place. That is not so, and I can prove it. I was on an OB case for Mrs. Rosenthal. We will have to get a 1962 calendar. October 12th, or thereabouts, is when I was released from this OB case. And this was the Sunday that I asked to get off an hour or two, and went to Lee's house, and saw this couple.

This woman would not give me the information, of her last check to me. I tried and tried, and told her how important it was. It was a Friday. So then it would have to be, then, Mr. Rankin, the week before—the Sunday of the week before then.

Mrs. Oswald. I am still going to try to investigate this thoroughly, because it is very important.

Mrs. Oswald. But if you don't know, Chief Justice Warren, how will you go into it?

The Chairman. Please don't turn this into examining the Commission. We will go into those things very thoroughly.

The Chairman. Well, you may go ahead and tell what you want. But don't question the Commission. That is the only thing I am asking you.

Mr. Doyle. I think if you compose yourself, if you would, and just go ahead and give the Commission all the information you have.

Mrs. Oswald.. Well, that is what I think I am doing. If I am doing it a wrong way, you will have to understand. I am a layman. I am the mother of this accused boy. I understand that is what the Commission is for, to get all information possible to come to a conclusion.

And if I have found out that my date of employment is the date that Lee was employed in Dallas, and this man said he worked some place before, I think that is very important information.

Mrs. Oswald. Maybe I should apologize for taking up so much of the Commission's time, sir.

Mr. Doyle. Go right ahead with the business, and when you give the Commission the facts, then the Commission will take on from there in their own judgment.

Mr. Rankin.. Mr. Doyle, while she is taking a moment, I will hand you a photostatic copy of this tape recording of an interview with Mrs. Marguerite Oswald—it purports to be that—recorded on November 25, 1963, an interview by J. M. Howard.

Is that the document we were talking about just a little while ago, a copy of which was to be given to Mrs. Oswald?

The first envelope was addressed to Lee Harvey Oswald, airmail. And Lee was in Russia, as we know. We have the proof. And you have all of the copies of this, I am sure.

Mrs. Oswald. And this you do not have. You have a copy now, but you do not have the story, Mr. Rankin.

It states that the discharge by reason of unfitness, recommendation for discharge, reason of unfitness.

I talked to a commandant at the Marine Corps and read this to him. And he advised me how to write to the Marine Corps, the official of the Marine Corps. And that is a copy of the letter.

Mrs. Oswald. It would be on the envelope, sir. The envelope is mailed, Glenview, April 29, Illinois. But, as you see, it had gone to a lot of addresses, because I had moved around quite a bit. So we would have to say I got it some time later than the original.

Mr. Rankin. And did you ever write to Secretary Connally about that, later Governor Connally?

I won't read it all, because you have a copy. But I have a few points to make here.

Mrs. Oswald. It was the Marine Base in Fort Worth, Tex., one of the captains there.

Mrs. Oswald. The letter to Commandant, Marine Air Reserve, 50 JTMGR, 26 April 1962, "to your son was prompted by his request for Soviet citizenship. An investigation concerning this matter has been conducted by military authorities and the case will be placed before a board of officers which will recommend that your son be retained in or separated from the U.S. Marine Corps Reserve. Your son, of course, has the right to appear in person or to present any facts or evidence which would assist the board in reaching its decision. The letter of 26 April 1960 informed him of his rights. In view of the fact that he has not been informed—that he has not informed this headquarters of his current address, and that he has left the United States without permission, it is considered that a letter sent to the last address on file at this headquarters is sufficient notification. A letter will be sent by certified mail informing your son of a convening date of the board. Should you be aware of any facts or information which would assist the board in evaluating your son's case, it is suggested that you forward them to this headquarters. It is regretted that action of this nature must be taken in your son's case. M. G. Letscher, First Lieutenant, United States Marine Corps, Administrative Office, Aviation Class 3, Reserve Section."

Now, this was addressed to me. This is what I want the Commission to know. This was addressed to Lee, the original. Then I wrote in behalf of my son, and this was addressed to me.

By now, I am corresponding with these people, and I ask for—I need my letter. And I ask for the reason for the dishonorable discharge, and said that I would act in behalf of my son, because I have pertinent information to that fact.

Mr. Rankin. Mrs. Oswald, I will ask the reporter to mark this as the next number.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 204, for identification.)

Mrs. Oswald. Yes, that is the letter I just read. That is the back of the envelope. And this letter.

Mr. Liebeler. May I say this, Mr. Rankin: We did tape that, and I do have a transcription of it here.

Mrs. Oswald. "I ask for a stay of action, and I will be willing to act in his behalf."

Mr. Rankin. Mrs. Oswald. I will hand you what I am asking the reporter to mark as Exhibit 205.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 205, for identification.)

Mrs. Oswald. "I am writing you on behalf of my son. He is out of the country at present, and since I have no contact with him I wish to request a stay of action concerning his discharge. Also, I desire to be informed of the charges against him. Please state reasons for such discharge. After hearing from you, I will be willing to act in his behalf."

So then comes a registered return receipt, addressed only to Mr. Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. Rankin. Now, will you examine the rest of Exhibit 204 and state whether that is the rest of the correspondence in regard to the matter that you know about?

Mrs. Oswald. This is addressed to me—this envelope is addressed to me, that is right, sir.

Mr. Rankin. And those photostatic copies in Exhibit 204 are all copies of your papers that you furnished to us, so we could make them, is that right?

(The documents heretofore marked for identification as Commission Exhibits Nos. 204 and 205 were received in evidence.)

Mrs. Oswald. I believe, Chief Justice Warren, I am giving information that this Commission did not have before. I do not think they had this return addressee, which is important, because after corresponding with me, as Mrs. Marguerite Oswald, they sent the dishonorable discharge in Lee's name, addressee only, when they knew he was out of the country.

Mr. Rankin. What do you mean by that, Mrs. Oswald? Could you explain that a little more?

Mrs. Oswald. Yes. I do not think they wanted me to have the dishonorable discharge.

Again, they wanted me to be upset and tell people about it, but not have the proof of the dishonorable discharge.

Mr. Rankin. Don't you think it is possible that they felt he was the one involved, and, therefore, they had to get the word directly to him for legal reasons?

Mrs. Oswald. No, sir, because, legally—I am glad you brought up the point, Mr. Rankin.

Your copies state that anyone can act in your behalf. And I wrote, as I read the copy, that I would be willing to act in my son's behalf, and I was making arrangements to get money and go there and act in his behalf because I had pertinent information. And they ignored my letter and sent this—yes, sir.

Mrs. Oswald. Well, what they may feel and what they should do—I am saying I am an American citizen, and I have some rights. And when I want to act in behalf of my son, we don't know whether he is living or dead, then I should act in behalf, I should not get a return.

222 I am glad you are bringing these points up. My rights have been invaded and my son's.

Mrs. Oswald. Now, Chief Justice Warren, I have pictures of my son that Mr. Jenner would like this Commission to have, because it shows Lee at age 15 and 16, and myself, which was supposed to be a life of psychiatric treatment. And I am more than happy—I volunteered to help my country in every way possible—to let the Commission have everything that I have. But you must understand that these are very valuable pictures, sir. I am having people wanting rights to a book, and these pictures are very, very valuable to me. And I would not want any of these pictures lost. Financially they are valuable, and to my story, sir. And they are the only pictures in existence.

But the way I have done it—the photographer had this picture in particular—have come to my home and copied the pictures and gave it to me back in my hand. I cannot afford to have any of these pictures lost, sir. It is my story that some day I hope to write.

So I was told that if I continue with the life history of Lee as a child and show the pictures, then they would have to be admitted for the record.

Mrs. Oswald. So now when I show the pictures, will you personally give me assurance that these pictures will in no way be used?

The Chairman. No, I cannot do that. The Commission cannot do it. If you have something that you consider your personal property, that you do not want to give to the Commission, you may withhold it.

The Chairman. Just a minute. I do not believe they bear directly on the matter we are investigating. They might be helpful. They might not be helpful. But you may have the choice of determining whether you want to introduce them or not.

But if you do introduce them, the Commission cannot put any limitation upon the use that it might make of them.

Now, I don't mean by that that we are going to necessarily distribute them or anything of that kind. But the Commission cannot limit itself in the reception of its evidence. It must have the power to do with it whatever is necessary to develop the facts.

Mrs. Oswald. Well, I give you that power. And I voluntarily would like for you to have everything I have, including pictures. But I just wanted assurance that these pictures would not be exploited in any way. For some reason or other—I am not putting it into words—but these are my personal pictures. And I want the Commission to have them. And it is pertinent to the story, I understand, Mr. Doyle, is that correct—because it shows Lee smiling, and his life and my life in New Orleans, which, I understand that the Commission is very interested in.

Mr. Doyle. Mrs. Oswald, as the situation has developed here, the introduction of the pictures into evidence, of course, must necessarily involve their physical copying, and the retention of the copies in the file. The Commission itself has stated that it can give you no assurance whatsoever concerning the use of these papers.

I would, myself, be of the view that the pictures introduced into the record here would be certainly used for the purposes of the investigation and the purposes of the Commission as established by the Executive order.

But they can give you no blanket—or have not chosen to give you any blanket assurance of the use of the pictures, and have given you completely the choice that if you have any concern about it whatsoever, that you retain the pictures yourself.

The choice they have given you is if you wish to have—to present the pictures to the Commission in the course of your testimony, they will be glad to receive223 them, they will—there will be copies made of them, the originals, of course, will remain in your custody. Their purposes will be—their use will be the uses of the Commission. But the Commission gives you no assurance whatsoever of the use, and gives you the complete choice of either submitting them or not under those circumstances.

Mrs. Oswald. Well, being a layman, I understand, I think, what you are telling me, in a way. But, on the other hand, being a layman, I feel actually I have no choice.

Mr. Doyle. But you do have a choice, because you are not here under subpena. Your materials have not been subpenaed. The Commission has advised you openly here that you may submit them or not as you see fit to do. So there is no force, no legal force at all. This is absolutely up to you.

The only thing that has been expressed to you is that they can give you no assurance or guarantee as to what use the Commission will make of them, that they will make what use they believe in their judgment is required by the Executive order and the purposes of their investigation.

Mrs. Oswald. I understand. And that is why I wanted the Commission to have all pictures that I have.

Now, may I request something? I don't think it is presumptuous of me. Maybe it is.

Could I sign for my rights for these pictures, and then let you have the pictures?

The Chairman. I think, Mrs. Oswald, if you have any doubt us to whether a misuse will be made of your papers, or if they are as valuable, moneywise, to you as you think they are, then I would suggest to you that you retain them yourself. We, of course, would be interested to see them, and they might be helpful—I don't know, because I don't know what you have there, or what context the pictures will be in.

But as your lawyer has told you, you are not under subpena here, you appeared voluntarily because you requested to testify before us. Those documents are not under subpena. They belong to you. They are in your possession. I have not seen them. You are at liberty to use them in your testimony or not, as you please.

But if you do, the Commission cannot put any limitations on the use that it will make of them.

Mrs. Oswald. Even though you have stated, Chief Justice Warren, just now, that you do not know if they are valuable to the Commission—and yet I have information from Mr. Jenner that they are valuable to the Commission, because they pertain to Lee's life at age 13 to age 16.

But the choice is with you, Mrs. Oswald. You may do just as you please. If you wish to testify concerning them, and put them in the hands of the Commission, you may do so.

Moneywise, it is more important for the Commission to know this boy's life and my life—but also I need to protect myself financially, because I am a widow, and do not have the money. And this will mean—these are valuable pictures.

I am not questioning the integrity of this Commission or the loyalty. What I am questioning is that possibly they may get lost or someone may somehow or other get ahold of these pictures and exploit them, and get money for them, which has happened to some other pictures already, sir, and then——

The Chairman. Well, I think, Mrs. Oswald, it would serve no purpose for us to debate the matter. I have tried to tell you very frankly, and your lawyer has told you very frankly and correctly, that you have a free choice224 to do just as you please. And we will abide by that choice that you may make.

Mrs. Oswald. Last night, Mr. Rankin, I read Lee working at one place after Tujaque. I do not know the name, sir. I think he worked there just a few days. He had the keys to the office. And, as I returned home from work one day, another young man was at the apartment, the door of the apartment, and said that Lee was discharged, and that Lee had the keys to the office, and just then Lee walked up and gave this young man the keys.

Now, I do not know the name of the place. And I believe he just worked there, sir, a few days.

If you will refresh me, I will give you any information I have. But it is hard for me to think of everything.

I have decided—and maybe I am wrong, because to me money is only good as to its use. However, there have been so many things since the assassination that has not been in my favor, I believe that I am going to keep my personal pictures.

Mrs. Oswald. If at any time in the future that you would like to have these pictures, I will be more than happy to have copies made and give them to the Commission.

There is another matter, Mr. Rankin, that is very important, that you asked me—Governor Connally's letter.

Mrs. Oswald. I had read this at the press conference. A letter from Lee Harvey Oswald to John Connally, Secretary of the Navy. This is just written from the newspaper article.

"I have been in the Soviet Union with the full sanction of the U.S. Embassy in Moscow." He asked the Navy Department to take the necessary steps to repair the damage to me and my family. "I shall employ all means to right the gross mistakes or injustices to a bona fide U.S. citizen, an ex-serviceman."

Now, I do not consider this a threat, because I, myself, if I had a dishonorable discharge, and I was a good marine for 3 years, and I felt like it hurt my mother and my children, and my wife, I would make such a statement, because I am a very definite person, as you know by now. I have been testifying for 3 days. And my son is of the same nature. He loved the Marines, and as far as he was concerned, he served his country 3 years. And it was a stigma to me and his children, and he wanted to right the wrong.

He went to Austin. There was an article in the paper—trying to get this rectified, and the young lady gave a very nice report of Lee, said he was very polite.

This is just how Lee was tried immediately in a few hours time, newspaper talk, and so on and so forth.

I would state this emphatically more maybe than Lee did, if I had a dishonorable discharge, sir.

But here is what I have written down. The day at Robert's house, when I came in from the country, I, myself, gave Lee the copy—we had many copies—you showed me the copy—I gave him the copy and told him—I had written him and told him about the dishonorable discharge, but I did not send any papers, because I didn't want the Russians to know.

But when I came, I had a scrapbook, and I gave him a copy, Mr. Rankin, of225 the reason for dishonorable discharge. He says "Don't worry about it, mother. I can fix that. It is no problem."

So then the boy tried to fix it. And this is not a threat. My son is of this disposition, and he felt like he was a good marine. That I know. I would do the same. And I will read it now to Governor Connally: "I shall employ all means to right the gross mistake done to my family and my now dead son."

I have shown this publicly at press conferences, and so I will employ all means to rectify this mistake—the mother of Lee Harvey Oswald. I intended to do that. That is my life's work.

Lee was born October 18, 1939, in New Orleans, La. His mother, Marguerite Claverie Oswald, his father's name was Robert Edward Lee, he was named after General Lee. The family's name is Harvey—his grandmother's name was Harvey. And so he was named Lee Harvey Oswald.

Lee was born 2 months after the death of his father, who died from a heart attack, coronary thrombosis.

I stayed home with the children as long as I could, because I believe that a mother should be home with her children.

Lee had a normal life as far as I, his mother, is concerned. He had a bicycle, he had everything that other children had.

Lee has wisdom without education. From a very small child—I have said this before, sir, and I have publicly stated this in 1959—Lee seemed to know the answers to things without schooling. That type child, in a way, is bored with schooling, because he is a little advanced.

Lee used to climb on top of the roof with binoculars, looking at the stars. He was reading astrology. Lee knew about any and every animal there was. He studied animals. All of their feeding habits, sleeping habits. He could converse—and that is why he was at the Bronx Zoo when he was picked up for truancy—he loved animals.

Lee played Monopoly. Lee played chess. Lee had a stamp collection, and even wrote to other young men and exchanged stamps, sir.

And Lee read history books, books too deep for a child his age. At age 9 he was always instructed not to contact me at work unless it was an emergency, because my work came first—he called me at work and said, "Mother, Queen Elizabeth's baby has been born."

He broke the rule to let me know that Queen Elizabeth's baby had been born. Nine years old. That was important to him. He liked things of that sort.

He loved comics, read comic books. He loved television programs. But most of all he loved the news on radio and television. If he was in the midst of a story, a film—he would turn it off for news. That was important.

And I have stated in 1959, which is in print, that Lee loved maps. Lee would study maps, sir. And he could tell you the distance from here and there. And when he was home on leave, I was amazed. Something was said about an airplane trip. Immediately he knew how many miles in the air that that plane took.

He belonged to the "Y." He used to go swimming. He would come by work with his head wet, and I would say, "Hurry home, honey, you are going to catch cold."

So then Robert joined the Marines in 1956—am I correct—that Robert joined the Marines?

No, Robert joined the Marines in 1952. We are now in Fort Worth, Tex., until 1952.

So then I decided, since I was working, I did not want Lee to be alone. Up until this time, sir, he had a brother. So I sold my home at 7400 Ewing226 Street, and went to New York City, not as a venture, but because my older son, John Edward Pic, lived in New York, and had lived in New York for years. He was in the Coast Guard, as a military man. He has now been in the service 14 years, and at that time it would have been approximately 8 or 9 years—I may be off because that is approximately. So he was stationed in New York. So I had no problem of selling my home and going there, thinking that John Edward would leave New York.

But the main thing was to be where I had family. And I moved to New York for that reason.

Mrs. Oswald. This was exactly August 1952, because I wanted to get there in time for Lee's schooling. And if I am not mistaken, Robert joined the Marines in July of 1952. And that was my reason for going.

I immediately enrolled Lee in a Lutheran school, because Lee was not confirmed—he was baptized in the Lutheran faith, but because of moving around—I had married Mr. Ekdahl in this period and so on, Lee was not confirmed.

I enrolled him in the Lutheran school which took him approximately an hour or longer by subway to get there. It was quite a distance. That is when we first arrived in New York.

I believe that Lee was in that school a very short time, 2 or 3 weeks, because at this time I was living in my daughter-in-law's home and son. And we were not welcome, sir. We were welcome for a few days. But then we were to get a place of our own—because her mother lived with her, and her mother had left to go visit a sister. So Lee and I could come to visit. But we were not going to live with John and his wife.

Mr. Rankin. Was there any time that you recall that there was a threat of Lee Oswald against Mrs. Pic with a knife or anything like that?

My daughter-in-law was very upset. The very first time we went there—I stated before, and I am glad I said that—that we were not welcome. And immediately it was asked what did we plan to do, as soon as we put our foot in the house. And I had made it plain to John Edward that I was going to have a place of my own, that we were just coming there to get located.

My daughter-in-law resented the fact that her mother—this went on before I got there—that her mother had to leave the house and go visit a sister so I could come, John Edward's mother. I had never met my daughter-in-law. She didn't like me, and she didn't like Lee.

So she—what is the word to say—not picked on the child, but she showed her displeasure.

And she is a very—not, I would say so much an emotional person—but this girl is a New Yorker who was brought up in this particular neighborhood, which I believe is a poor section of New York.

The mother had lived in this home all her life. And this girl cursed like a trooper. She is—you cannot express it, Mr. Rankin—but not of a character of a high caliber.

At this particular time she had never been out of this neighborhood, or out of New York. And Lee loved the little baby. And he played with the baby and wanted to hold the baby and everything, which she objected.

INVESTIGATION OF
THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY

HEARINGS
Before the President's Commission
on the Assassination
of President Kennedy

PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION
ON THE
ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT KENNEDY

Foreword

Preface

Contents

COMMISSION EXHIBITS INTRODUCED

Hearings Before the President's Commission
on the
Assassination of President Kennedy

Monday, February 3, 1964
TESTIMONY OF MRS. LEE HARVEY OSWALD

Afternoon Session
TESTIMONY OF MRS. LEE HARVEY OSWALD RESUMED

Tuesday, February 4, 1964
TESTIMONY OF MRS. LEE HARVEY OSWALD RESUMED

Afternoon Session
TESTIMONY OF MRS. LEE HARVEY OSWALD RESUMED

Wednesday, February 5, 1964
TESTIMONY OF MRS. LEE HARVEY OSWALD RESUMED

Afternoon Session
TESTIMONY OF MRS. LEE HARVEY OSWALD RESUMED

Thursday, February 6, 1964
TESTIMONY OF MRS. LEE HARVEY OSWALD RESUMED

Afternoon Session
TESTIMONY OF MRS. LEE HARVEY OSWALD RESUMED

Monday, February 10, 1964
TESTIMONY OF MRS. MARGUERITE OSWALD

Afternoon Session
TESTIMONY OF MRS. MARGUERITE OSWALD RESUMED

Tuesday, February 11, 1964
TESTIMONY OF MRS. MARGUERITE OSWALD RESUMED

Wednesday, February 12, 1964
TESTIMONY OF MRS. MARGUERITE OSWALD RESUMED

	Page
Foreword	v
Preface	vii
Testimony of—
Mrs. Lee Harvey Oswald	1
Mrs. Marguerite Oswald	126
Robert Edward Lee Oswald	264
James Herbert Martin	469

INVESTIGATION OF THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY

HEARINGS Before the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy

PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION ON THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT KENNEDY

Foreword

Preface

Contents

COMMISSION EXHIBITS INTRODUCED

Hearings Before the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy

Monday, February 3, 1964 TESTIMONY OF MRS. LEE HARVEY OSWALD

Afternoon Session TESTIMONY OF MRS. LEE HARVEY OSWALD RESUMED

Tuesday, February 4, 1964 TESTIMONY OF MRS. LEE HARVEY OSWALD RESUMED

Afternoon Session TESTIMONY OF MRS. LEE HARVEY OSWALD RESUMED

Wednesday, February 5, 1964 TESTIMONY OF MRS. LEE HARVEY OSWALD RESUMED

Afternoon Session TESTIMONY OF MRS. LEE HARVEY OSWALD RESUMED

Thursday, February 6, 1964 TESTIMONY OF MRS. LEE HARVEY OSWALD RESUMED

Afternoon Session TESTIMONY OF MRS. LEE HARVEY OSWALD RESUMED

Monday, February 10, 1964 TESTIMONY OF MRS. MARGUERITE OSWALD

Afternoon Session TESTIMONY OF MRS. MARGUERITE OSWALD RESUMED

Tuesday, February 11, 1964 TESTIMONY OF MRS. MARGUERITE OSWALD RESUMED

Wednesday, February 12, 1964 TESTIMONY OF MRS. MARGUERITE OSWALD RESUMED

INVESTIGATION OF
THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY

HEARINGS
Before the President's Commission
on the Assassination
of President Kennedy

PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION
ON THE
ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT KENNEDY

Hearings Before the President's Commission
on the
Assassination of President Kennedy

Monday, February 3, 1964
TESTIMONY OF MRS. LEE HARVEY OSWALD

Afternoon Session
TESTIMONY OF MRS. LEE HARVEY OSWALD RESUMED

Tuesday, February 4, 1964
TESTIMONY OF MRS. LEE HARVEY OSWALD RESUMED

Afternoon Session
TESTIMONY OF MRS. LEE HARVEY OSWALD RESUMED

Wednesday, February 5, 1964
TESTIMONY OF MRS. LEE HARVEY OSWALD RESUMED

Afternoon Session
TESTIMONY OF MRS. LEE HARVEY OSWALD RESUMED

Thursday, February 6, 1964
TESTIMONY OF MRS. LEE HARVEY OSWALD RESUMED

Afternoon Session
TESTIMONY OF MRS. LEE HARVEY OSWALD RESUMED

Monday, February 10, 1964
TESTIMONY OF MRS. MARGUERITE OSWALD

Afternoon Session
TESTIMONY OF MRS. MARGUERITE OSWALD RESUMED

Tuesday, February 11, 1964
TESTIMONY OF MRS. MARGUERITE OSWALD RESUMED

Wednesday, February 12, 1964
TESTIMONY OF MRS. MARGUERITE OSWALD RESUMED