INVESTIGATION OF
THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY

HEARINGS
Before the President's Commission
on the Assassination
of President Kennedy

Pursuant To Executive Order 11130, an Executive order creating a Commission to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of the late President John F. Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of the man charged with the assassination and S.J. Res. 137, 88th Congress, a concurrent resolution conferring upon the Commission the power to administer oaths and affirmations, examine witnesses, receive evidence, and issue subpenas

Volume
XII

UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE

WASHINGTON, D.C.

U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE, WASHINGTON: 1964

For sale in complete sets by the Superintendent of Documents, U.S. Government Printing Office Washington, D.C., 20402

iii

PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION
ON THE
ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT KENNEDY

Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman

Biographical information on the Commissioners and the staff can be found in the Commission's Report.

v

Preface

The testimony of the following witnesses is contained in volume XII: Charles Batchelor, Jesse E. Curry, J. E. Decker, W. B. Frazier, O. A. Jones, Jack Revill, James Maurice Solomon, M. W. Stevenson, and Cecil E. Talbert, Charles Oliver Arnett, Buford Lee Beaty, Alvin R. Brock, B. H. Combest, Kenneth Hudson Croy, Wilbur Jay Cutchshaw, Napoleon J. Daniels, William J. Harrison, Harold B. Holly, Jr., Harry M. Kriss, Roy Lee Lowery, Frank M. Martin, Billy Joe Maxey, Logan W. Mayo, Louis D. Miller, William J. Newman, Bobby G. Patterson, Rio S. Pierce, James A. Putnam, Willie B. Slack, Don Francis Steele, Roy Eugene Vaughn, James C. Watson, G. E. Worley, and Woodrow Wiggins, Dallas law enforcement officers who were responsible for planning and executing the transfer of Lee Harvey Oswald from the Dallas City Jail to the Dallas County Jail; and Don Ray Archer, Barnard S. Clardy, and Patrick Trevore Dean, who participated in the arrest and questioning of Jack L. Ruby.

vii

Contents

viii

EXHIBITS INTRODUCED

1

Hearings Before the President's Commission
on the
Assassination of President Kennedy

TESTIMONY OF ASSISTANT CHIEF CHARLES BATCHELOR

The testimony of Assistant Chief Charles Batchelor was taken at 8:30 p.m., on March 23, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Burt W. Griffin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. Griffin. My name is Burt Griffin. I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel of the President's Commission. Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and the rules of procedure adopted by the Commission in conformance with the Executive order and the joint resolution, I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you, Chief Batchelor.

I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald. In particular as to you, Chief Batchelor, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the security surrounding the protection of Lee Harvey Oswald and any other pertinent facts that you may know about the general inquiry having to do with the death of President Kennedy.

Chief Batchelor, you have appeared here today by virtue of a general request made by the general counsel of the staff of the President's Commission. Under the rules adopted by the Commission, you are entitled to a 3-day written notice prior to the taking of this deposition. But the rules adopted by the Commission also provide that any witness may waive this notice. Do you now waive this notice?

Chief Batchelor. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. Would you raise your right hand and be sworn?

Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Chief Batchelor. I do.

Mr. Griffin. Will you state your name for the record?

Chief Batchelor. Charles Batchelor.

Mr. Griffin. What is your age?

Chief Batchelor. Fifty-eight.

Mr. Griffin. Where do you live, Mr. Batchelor?

Chief Batchelor. 1022 Franklin Avenue, Dallas, Tex.

Mr. Griffin. What is your occupation?

Chief Batchelor. I am assistant chief of police of the Dallas Police Department.

Mr. Griffin. How long have you been with the Dallas Police Department?

Chief Batchelor. Since May 1, 1936.

Mr. Griffin. How long have you been assistant chief?

Chief Batchelor. Since January 20, 1960.

Mr. Griffin. Of course you and I have spoken at some length earlier this afternoon. In that conversation, we discussed your activities from the time that you learned that President Kennedy was shot on November 22 until Saturday,2 November 23, when you first heard something about the movement of Lee Harvey Oswald from the Dallas City Jail to the Dallas County Jail. I believe you told me that sometime on Saturday night you were confronted by some newspaper reporters with respect to the movement of Lee Harvey Oswald?

Chief Batchelor. Yes, sir.

Mr. Griffin. Would you tell us, Chief Batchelor, about what time of the night these reporters approached you?

Chief Batchelor. This must have been somewhere around 7:30 or 8 o'clock at night.

Mr. Griffin. Where were you?

Chief Batchelor. I was in the administrative offices of the police department at headquarters.

Mr. Griffin. That is on the third floor? On the third floor of the police and——

Chief Batchelor. Yes, sir.

Mr. Griffin. Were you inside your own office?

Chief Batchelor. No; I was out in the outer office of the administrative offices where the secretaries are.

Mr. Griffin. Do you recall how many reporters confronted you?

Chief Batchelor. There were two of them.

Mr. Griffin. Do you recall who they were?

Chief Batchelor. No; I don't recall who they were now. It was a rather casual request. They asked, or they said, rather, that they were hungry and hadn't had anything to eat and they wanted to go out to dinner, and they didn't want to miss anything if we were going to move the prisoner. And I told them I had no idea when they were going to move the prisoner.

About that time Chief Curry came up and he told them, he said, "Oh, I think if you fellows are back here by 10 o'clock in the morning you won't miss anything."

So they left with that and went to eat.

Mr. Griffin. Were there any other reporters around at that time?

Chief Batchelor. No, sir. Then later, just a very few minutes later, Chief Curry decided, well, he might tell the rest of the people out in the hall so they won't be hanging around, because they were apparently doing nothing, just waiting. So he went out and told them that if they would come back by 10 o'clock in the morning, they were not going to move the prisoner in the meantime.

Mr. Griffin. Did you talk with Chief Curry after he first spoke to these two newspaper reporters?

Chief Batchelor. You mean with reference to the movement of the prisoner?

Mr. Griffin. Yes.

Chief Batchelor. He told me that he didn't know exactly when they would move him, but he thought homicide bureau was about through with questioning him, but he knew that Captain Fritz wanted to question him again in the morning, and that after he had questioned him, why, we would move him.

Mr. Griffin. Where did that conversation take place?

Chief Batchelor. In the administrative offices. One thing I think I omitted. From the time that he told these reporters that if they were to come back by 10 o'clock in the morning, he didn't think they would miss anything, he went in and discussed it with Captain Fritz as to how he was progressing with the interrogation and whether or not he thought he would be through with him in the morning.

Mr. Griffin. You mean this was between the time he——

Chief Batchelor. Before he went out and announced it to the rest of the press.

Mr. Griffin. About how much time elapsed, would you say, from the time he talked to the two reporters and the time he made the general announcement?

Chief Batchelor. Oh, I would estimate maybe 30 minutes; no longer.

Mr. Griffin. Now, in between times, did he talk with you about the movement?

Chief Batchelor. No, sir.

Mr. Griffin. Afterwards, did he talk with you about the proposed movement?

3 Chief Batchelor. You mean the mechanics of moving him?

Mr. Griffin. Anything?

Chief Batchelor. No, sir.

Mr. Griffin. What was the next thing you learned about the proposed movement of Oswald?

Chief Batchelor. I just assumed that we would move him the next morning sometime after 10 o'clock. I didn't know exactly when, and I came down the next morning around 8 o'clock.

Mr. Griffin. Did you learn anything about the movement between the time Chief Curry made the general announcement to the press and the time that you went home that night?

Chief Batchelor. No, sir.

Mr. Griffin. Was there any conversation around the building?

Chief Batchelor. Not to my knowledge.

Mr. Griffin. Was there anybody else present from the police department when you talked with the two newspaper reporters?

Chief Batchelor. There were some secretaries in the office. This was not addressed to me particularly. They might have overheard it. We were in the office, in the outer office nearest Chief Curry's office at this time, and I believe Mrs. Ann Schreiber was holding down that desk.

Mr. Griffin. What time did you leave the police department on Saturday night or Sunday morning?

Chief Batchelor. It was, I believe, on Saturday night, or Sunday morning. It was around midnight. It wasn't quite as late as it was the night before when I left.

Mr. Griffin. So would it be your estimate that about 4 hours elapsed between the chief's press conference and the time you left?

Chief Batchelor. I would say maybe not quite that long, but that is not too far off.

Mr. Griffin. Chief, maybe this will help you a little bit to refresh your recollection.

Chief Batchelor. I want to take that back. It was earlier than that when I left there on Saturday night. It was quite late on Friday night, but it was around 9:30 when I left Saturday night.

Mr. Griffin. Are you referring to this, correcting this estimate? Are you referring to this report dated November 23d?

Chief Batchelor. I think the times in this are fairly accurate.

Mr. Griffin. Chief, I want to hand you what has already been marked for identification as Stevenson Exhibit 5053. Can you identify that?

Chief Batchelor. Yes. This was a report signed by myself, Chief Lumpkin, and Chief Stevenson which was the result of a staff résumé made within a few days after Oswald was shot.

It was for the purpose of bringing together the facts and times and elements of events in a chronological order as we all remembered them. Some of the times, particularly with reference to the President's arrival, which had to do with meeting with some Secret Service people and other groups, and some of this we were a little bit hazy on at first and we went back and checked some facts.

As an example, we checked the Baker Hotel schedule on a room that was reserved for a meeting that was held, so we could be sure what time this meeting was, and things of that nature.

Mr. Griffin. I see. The members of the police department held a meeting at the Baker Hotel sometime over the weekend?

Chief Batchelor. No. The hostess committee of the city which was hosting the President's arrival and arranging for the luncheon, it was kind of a planning committee, and we were asked, or I was asked to one of these meetings with some of the Secret Service people.

So this was a reference point for some of our thinking when this happened that we could relate some other things.

Mr. Griffin. Now your report indicates that you left Saturday night at 9:30 p.m. Between the time that Chief Curry made his announcement to the4 press and you left at 9:30 p.m., were you confronted by any other newspaper people about the movement of Oswald?

Chief Batchelor. No, sir. As a matter of fact, we left not too long after this because after this announcement was made, the press began to leave themselves. The third floor became fairly quiet and there wasn't anybody up there to speak of and it just died out.

Mr. Griffin. Were you confronted by anybody after the chief made his announcement with respect to Oswald?

Chief Batchelor. No, sir; not that I recall.

Mr. Griffin. Do you recall how you arrived at the time at 9:30, stated in the report? Was that based on your records?

Chief Batchelor. That was fresh in my mind when we wrote this report.

Mr. Griffin. Now, who was left in charge of the police department that night after you left at 9:30?

Chief Batchelor. We have a night chief who comes on at 5 o'clock in the afternoon and he works until 2 in the morning.

Mr. Griffin. Do you recall who it was that night?

Chief Batchelor. Well, there is only one. It would have been Chief Jack Tanner.

Mr. Griffin. Who would then replace him at 2 o'clock in the morning?

Chief Batchelor. No one. There is a, well, I say no one. There is an inspector also who works around the clock. I don't recall which inspector was on duty that night, but there is an inspector on duty at night around the clock.

Mr. Griffin. I notice—if you want to refer to your report on page 29, the report indicates that you received a telephone call at your home about 6:30 in the morning from Captain Talbert. Can you tell us what that call was about?

Chief Batchelor. Yes, sir. He called and informed me that he had gotten a call, and he didn't tell me at the time where he got it; he said an anonymous call.

Later I learned it came from the FBI, and they in turn had called him. That about a hundred men were going to take the prisoner Oswald and they didn't want to get any policeman hurt. So I told him to send a squad by Chief Curry's house and inform him about it. And at that moment we weren't concerned about him in the jail. We were concerned about him in the transfer.

Mr. Griffin. Why did Talbert call you rather than some other member of the police department?

Chief Batchelor. He tried to call Chief Curry and he couldn't get him to answer his phone. I guess he was dog-tired and he couldn't get him up. And I told him to send a squad car by and tell him.

Mr. Griffin. I see. Did you have any discussion with him at that point who had responsibility to make this decision? Did you feel you had the responsibility to give instructions on the basis of having received this report that some men were going to try to go after Oswald? Did you feel you had any responsibility to take any protective action?

Chief Batchelor. At that moment?

Mr. Griffin. Yes.

Chief Batchelor. No. The way it came to me, it was my feeling that this was to happen when we attempted to transfer him, not to come up to the jail and get him.

Mr. Griffin. What did you do after you received that phone call?

Chief Batchelor. I got up and dressed to come down to the office.

Mr. Griffin. What time did you arrive down at the office?

Chief Batchelor. About 8 o'clock.

Mr. Griffin. What did you do when you got to the office?

Chief Batchelor. Chief Stevenson and I got there about the same time. I parked my car in the basement and we walked into the city hall or into the police station, and we noticed a television camera set up in the areaway leading into the garage.

I made the comment that they would have to do something about the television camera because it was right in the path where they would bring the prisoner out. There was no one around the camera. It was just sitting there.

5 Mr. Griffin. I want to hand you here, chief, a diagram of the inside of the basement garage area. Do you have a pencil or anything that you can mark with?

Chief Batchelor. Yes. The camera—can I mark here?

Mr. Griffin. Yes.

Chief Batchelor. The camera was sitting right here.

Mr. Griffin. Would you put a "C" there so we know it is a camera.

Chief Batchelor. [Complies.]

Mr. Griffin. Now, what television station had this camera there?

Chief Batchelor. It was KRLD.

Mr. Griffin. What makes you think it was KRLD?

Chief Batchelor. I just seem to recall that in my mind the letters on the side of the camera. I could be wrong. It could have been a WBAP camera.

Mr. Griffin. Was the camera manned?

Chief Batchelor. No, sir.

Mr. Griffin. Were there any other people in the basement area at that time?

Chief Batchelor. No, sir.

Mr. Griffin. Who was it that you instructed to move the camera?

Chief Batchelor. I didn't instruct anybody at that moment. We merely commented it was going to be moved, but instructed it to be moved later when we came back down.

Mr. Griffin. Now, what did you do after you passed the camera?

Chief Batchelor. Went up to the office.

Mr. Griffin. How did you go?

Chief Batchelor. Went through the basement and into the elevator and went up.

Mr. Griffin. You went up to the third floor?

Chief Batchelor. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. To your office. Do you remember what conversation you had with Chief Stevenson along the way?

Chief Batchelor. Well, we were commenting about that camera and that they were going to have to move it, and we were going to have to man that basement. But at the moment, plans hadn't jelled as to when we would move him. Actually, back in our minds, I suppose, was the idea that when the time came, that the sheriff's department would probably move him, because this is customary in moving a prisoner. They normally come down and get the prisoner.

Mr. Griffin. Did you discuss with Chief Stevenson anywhere along the way upstairs this phone call which you received from Mr. Talbert earlier in the morning?

Chief Batchelor. Yes; I think I mentioned that to him.

Mr. Griffin. Do you remember anything about that conversation?

Chief Batchelor. Not anything especially.

Mr. Griffin. Do you recall whether he knew or Stevenson knew at the time you saw him down in the basement that there had been such a threat?

Chief Batchelor. I believe he did. I think someone from one of his bureaus had called him, if I remember right. It was rather common knowledge that a call like that had been received.

Mr. Griffin. As you walked to the elevator in the basement, do you recall whether or not there were any people in the basement?

Chief Batchelor. No; I don't remember anybody except those people in the jail office.

Mr. Griffin. The people in the jail office were employees of the jail?

Chief Batchelor. They were the jail crew that stay on all night long; yes. Not the all night. These would have been the morning shift just come on.

Mr. Griffin. At what time did that morning shift come on?

Chief Batchelor. At 7 o'clock.

Mr. Griffin. Chief, would you take this diagram and mark on there the time that you believe you saw that camera?

Chief Batchelor. [Marks.]

Mr. Griffin. I am marking this, "Dallas, Tex., Chief Batchelor, March 23, 1964, Deposition Exhibit No. 5000."

6 As you walked into the building and went up to the third floor, did you see anybody in the garage area or along the ramp or near the record room other than police department employees?

Chief Batchelor. No, sir.

Mr. Griffin. Now, what happened when you got up to the third floor? What did you do?

Chief Batchelor. I went to my office. I don't remember exactly what I did. Chief Curry came in very shortly after that, and I went into this office and we started discussing the possibility of moving the prisoner.

Mr. Griffin. Now will you try to remember who else was in the office with Chief Curry when you walked in?

Chief Batchelor. No one.

Mr. Griffin. Did anybody come in after you?

Chief Batchelor. Stevenson came in a little bit later.

Mr. Griffin. How much later, would you say?

Chief Batchelor. Oh, 2 or 3 minutes later, if I remember.

Mr. Griffin. Did anybody else come in after that during this conversation?

Chief Batchelor. I don't recall that they did. I don't believe there was.

Mr. Griffin. Did Chief Lunday come in?

Chief Batchelor. No. Chief Lunday didn't come down until later in the morning, I believe.

Mr. Griffin. Did Captain Talbert join you?

Chief Batchelor. No.

Mr. Griffin. Was Captain Talbert still on duty when you arrived at the police department?

Chief Batchelor. Captain Talbert was on duty that morning. He came on at 7 o'clock.

Mr. Griffin. Talbert came on at 7, but as I understand it, Talbert called you at your home about 6:30. How did that happen?

Chief Batchelor. Well, he is a platoon commander, and a platoon commander comes down early before the rest of the men to get his detail, and he had gotten this information from the night commander. The information came into them before they came on duty, and someone had tried to call Chief Curry. When they came down, they told me about it and I called them and I told them to send a squad by and wake Chief Curry up and tell him.

Mr. Griffin. What platoon was Talbert in charge of?

Chief Batchelor. The second platoon that month.

Mr. Griffin. By "platoon," what do you mean?

Chief Batchelor. The first platoon is the night platoon that comes on theoretically at midnight. It actually comes on at 11 o'clock the preceding day and it goes to 7 o'clock the next morning.

Mr. Griffin. What area does a platoon man?

Chief Batchelor. It mans the city. This is a uniform platoon. We have three substations and they change the same way. The substations are under the platoon commander, and each of the substations has a lieutenant in charge of the substation who accounts to the platoon commander, who is a captain.

Mr. Griffin. Tell me if my understanding is right, that Talbert at this point had operational responsibility for all the men throughout the city?

Chief Batchelor. That's right.

Mr. Griffin. Sort of like the executive officer on a ship or something?

Chief Batchelor. That's right.

Mr. Griffin. Tell us what your conversation was with Chief Curry up in his office when you first went in?

Chief Batchelor. I asked him, I believe, if he had called Sheriff Decker.

Mr. Griffin. What did he say?

Chief Batchelor. He said, no, he hadn't, but he was fixing to do that. And he did do it. He picked up the phone and called Sheriff Decker.

This was—I got down around 9 o'clock—I mean around 8 o'clock, correction—and it must have been somewhere around 8:30 or 8:45 when he called Decker.

Mr. Griffin. How long did you talk with him before he called Sheriff Decker?

Chief Batchelor. Just a few minutes. He called Sheriff Decker, and Decker7 said—and I was hearing only one side of the conversation, but I gathered that Decker had told him he thought he was going to move the prisoner. Curry said, "Well, if you want us to, we will." So he said, "I think you've got more manpower than we have. You move him if you will."

Then we had discussed this threat that had been received and——

Mr. Griffin. You and——

Chief Batchelor. Curry.

Mr. Griffin. Did Curry mention the threat to Decker in the telephone conversation?

Chief Batchelor. I just don't remember whether he did or not. I would think reasonably that he did, but I don't remember.

Mr. Griffin. When Chief Curry talked with Decker, did he make any mention of what time Oswald would be moved?

Chief Batchelor. He didn't set any definite time. He told him that Captain Fritz wanted to question Oswald again that morning, and that when he got through, they would be ready to move him, and he thought this would be sometime after 10 o'clock.

Mr. Griffin. Had Fritz begun to question Oswald when Curry was on the telephone with Decker?

Chief Batchelor. I really don't know. Shortly after we made the decision, Curry went back to the office and they were questioning him.

Mr. Griffin. Now, when Curry and Decker talked on the telephone on this occasion, did Curry say anything about how Oswald would be moved?

Chief Batchelor. Well, I think he called him back later and told him how after we had talked, because we hadn't made the decision to use an armored car to move him, armored truck, until after we had determined that he wasn't going to move him and it was going to be our job. Then we decided to discuss the armored car.

Mr. Griffin. Did Chief Curry have any discussion with Decker in this first telephone conversation about the route that would be followed in moving Oswald?

Chief Batchelor. I don't think so, because I am sure we didn't know at that moment just exactly what we would do. He went back and talked to Fritz about the advisability of this later, and we discussed it, and Stevenson came up and discussed it, and our plan was to take him down Elm Street originally. We would go out of the basement to Commerce, Commerce to Central Expressway, north on Central to Elm, and then west on Elm to Houston, and then go back east to the jail entrance door of the county jail and come in. This was our original plan.

Mr. Griffin. In this first telephone conversation with Decker was Stevenson present in Curry's office?

Chief Batchelor. I don't believe he was. I know he wasn't when we started. He may have walked in there while I was talking to him, but I believe Curry and I was the only ones present.

Mr. Griffin. When Curry finished talking with Decker and he hung up the phone, did he say anything to you?

Chief Batchelor. Yes; he said obviously Decker wants us to move him.

Mr. Griffin. What did you say?

Chief Batchelor. I said we'd better start making some arrangements then. And he said, "What do you think about getting an armored car, an armored truck?"

And I said, "I think I know where I can get one."

Mr. Griffin. Where was that?

Chief Batchelor. This was from the Armored Motor Car Service.

Mr. Griffin. Where is that located?

Chief Batchelor. It is on—what is the name of that street?

Mr. Griffin. In the downtown area?

Chief Batchelor. It just borders on the downtown area. It is off of Ross Avenue.

Mr. Griffin. North or south?

Chief Batchelor. It is north of Ross Avenue. I should think of the name of the street. It is an old street here, but I just can't think of it offhand.

Mr. Griffin. What is the name of the armored car company again?

8 Chief Batchelor. Armored Motor Car Service. It is actually a Fort Worth company who services both Dallas and Fort Worth, and they have an office here, too.

Mr. Griffin. Go ahead.

Chief Batchelor. After this, I told him that I thought I could get one. I then went to the city directory to see who was in charge here, where I might get ahold of his phone number. And I called the vice president at his home. This was on Sunday morning. It was before he had gone to church. It must have been somewhere around 9 o'clock.

Mr. Griffin. Can you give us the name of the vice president?

Chief Batchelor. It was Mr. Fleming. Mr. Fleming was the vice president, and I talked to him at his home, and he told me that he would be glad to furnish us one. As a matter of fact, he had two trucks which we could take our choice. One was a small truck, but would accommodate only one passenger in the back. The other one was what they call an overland truck, and it had seats on either side in the back and would accommodate several people.

And I said, "I don't know whether this will go down to the basement or not." But I asked him how tall it was and he said he didn't know, but he would have it measured and let me know. And I told him that I would find out what the height of the ramp was. We have a low place in the ramp as you go down at the bottom of the ramp, and it is only 7 feet 5 inches tall at that point, so I found out what that height was, and I called him back.

Mr. Griffin. Now at the time you first talked with Mr. Fleming, did you indicate to him what time you would need the armored vehicle?

Chief Batchelor. Yes; I told him sometime around 10 or a little after. And he said he would get there as quickly as possible. He had to call a crew down to man the truck. And Mr. Hall, who is their Dallas representative here, brought the truck down with another driver driving the small one.

Mr. Griffin. When was the truck brought down?

Chief Batchelor. It was brought down—probably it wasn't at 10 o'clock, because they didn't get there that early. It must have been closer to 11 o'clock when they finally got down there with it.

Mr. Griffin. Did you say anything else to Mr. Fleming during this first telephone conversation? Did you tell him anything about the route?

Chief Batchelor. I don't believe that I told him the route we were going to take, no. I know I didn't tell him.

Mr. Griffin. While you were on the telephone with Mr. Fleming, where was Chief Curry, if you know?

Chief Batchelor. He was in his office. I called Mr. Fleming from my office. I left his office and went into my office and called him.

Mr. Griffin. How about Chief Stevenson, where was he?

Chief Batchelor. He was either in his office or in Chief Curry's office with him. We were all together.

Mr. Griffin. At the time that Curry got off the first telephone call with Decker, was there anything that Stevenson was supposed to do?

Chief Batchelor. Well, he and I both, under Chief Curry's instructions, he said you'd better go downstairs and see what manpower you will need to cover that basement down there. One other thing, Chief Lumpkin had come in and he was the man I asked to find out for me how tall that ramp was down there, what the clearance was.

Mr. Griffin. Now, did Lumpkin go down there before or after you called Fleming?

Chief Batchelor. I think he went down there. He called somebody down that knew how tall it was, but that was after I talked to Fleming the first time.

Mr. Griffin. Does your office, Chief, maintain any records of outgoing telephone calls?

Chief Batchelor. No, sir.

Mr. Griffin. At the time that you were talking to Fleming, between the time that the chief talked with Decker and you talked with Fleming, would there have been any occasion for a dispatcher to make any particular communication to the people in the field as a result of the conversation with Decker?

9 Chief Batchelor. No, sir. As a matter of fact, nobody knew this. I mean, except the few people on the staff.

Mr. Griffin. I realize that nobody would have known about the particular contents of the conversation, but what I am getting at is, is there any reason that somebody might have said at this point he knew you were going to have to make a move, you'd better dispatch the men in? You'd better send out a general call to bring in more men?

Chief Batchelor. This would have been handled in a telephone conversation with the dispatcher, yet nobody would know the real reason for it. Talbert did have some men called in. He did have some men called in.

Mr. Griffin. How did Talbert come to make this call in relation to the conversation?

Chief Batchelor. I don't know, unless he was anticipating. Well, I don't know how to say it. It had gotten on the radio and in the newspapers and everywhere else that this was going to be at 10 o'clock, I presume, because there was people all up and down the street, across the street from the city hall on Commerce waiting for this thing to happen.

Mr. Griffin. Were they waiting there when you came in at 8 o'clock?

Chief Batchelor. Oh, there wasn't anybody there that early, but they were down there around 10 o'clock.

Mr. Griffin. Can you think of anything that might have happened in the ordinary course of things after Decker and Curry talked, that would have been recorded in the police department?

Chief Batchelor. About the movement of the prisoner?

Mr. Griffin. No. I am particularly referring to the movement of the prisoner, but I am thinking of something that might pinpoint the time in which this conversation with Decker occurred, that Curry might have said at this point, "All right, Stevenson, bring in so many men," and Stevenson would have told the dispatcher to send out a call, and nobody would have known the purpose of the call, but it would fix a time?

Chief Batchelor. Stevenson went back after we determined we were going to have to secure the basement and move the prisoner. He went back to his bureau and had them send some men down there, some detectives.

He didn't have to call them from the field. He had them back there.

Talbert sent out and got some men, and I don't know whose direction he did that on, but we went down there to see what manpower we would need. And when we got there, he had them there, and where he got this information, I don't know.

Mr. Griffin. Now after you talked with Fleming the first time, what did you do? After you finished that telephone conversation?

Chief Batchelor. We went downstairs and that is when we had instructed them—it was Wiggins, I believe, in the jail office, to get that camera out of there. And we instructed them—Curry went down with us, too, and there were two cars sitting across from the jail exit door. They were sitting in these places right here.

Mr. Griffin. You want to take a pen and mark?

Chief Batchelor. And we had these cars moved [marking on exhibit].

Mr. Griffin. What time of the morning would you estimate that was?

Chief Batchelor. This must have been about 9:30 or 9:15, somewhere along in there.

Mr. Griffin. You want to mark what you think the approximate time was in between the two cars where you marked?

Chief Batchelor. [Indicates time.]

Mr. Griffin. Were there any other cars in the basement area at that time?

Chief Batchelor. Yes; there was several other cars. Chief Curry's car was over here, and mine was over here.

Mr. Griffin. That is in the chief's normal parking place?

Chief Batchelor. These all are our normal spaces.

Mr. Griffin. You want to mark those in there?

Chief Batchelor. [Marks.]

Mine is over here, and I don't know whether Chief Fisher was in there or not. I don't remember his.

10 Mr. Griffin. You want to put the time in between those two also?

Chief Batchelor. [Marks time.]

Mr. Griffin. What time they were parked in there, the time that you are talking about right now that you saw them there. That is the same time that was on the other cars?

Chief Batchelor. They were there all morning. They were parked there and they stayed there up until we moved them.

Mr. Griffin. So they were there at 9:15 to 9:30?

Chief Batchelor. [Marks on chart.]

Mr. Griffin. Were there other cars in the basement area?

Chief Batchelor. Yes, there were others. I don't recall just exactly. It wasn't full. It was a Sunday, and Chief Stevenson's car was parked over here somewhere, and Chief Lunday's, Lumpkin's car was parked here.

Mr. Griffin. Was there general traffic of police cars in and out of the garage?

Chief Batchelor. There would have been. However, on Sunday morning, that time of day there is very little traffic in and out of there. It is one of the quietest times. There were two or three other cars parked in here.

Mr. Griffin. When you went down to the basement at that time, were there news people in the basement?

Chief Batchelor. Yes, sir. When we went down in there the next time, there was some cameras setting up here that had just been rolled in. They weren't operative.

Mr. Griffin. Let's focus on this trip that you took downstairs with, was it Stevenson?

Chief Batchelor. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. At 9:15 or 9:30. What is your best estimate of the number of news people that were down there?

Chief Batchelor. I don't know. I can tell you a better estimate when we finally went down there.

Mr. Griffin. Was it crowded or sparsely crowded?

Chief Batchelor. It wasn't crowded; no. There wasn't any big congregation. There may be two or three people from—some television people standing around there, trying to get set up, and they had some cables and stuff in there, and the best I remember, we told them they were going to have to move those cables out of there. And we instructed Lieutenant Wiggins to move these two vehicles out.

Mr. Griffin. Those were the two that are on the Main Street side of the entrance into the garage area?

Chief Batchelor. Yes, north side. And that we were going to have this for the news media to stand behind the rail.

Mr. Griffin. Right where the two cars were that you wanted to be moved?

Chief Batchelor. Yes; and we instructed the television people that they would have to put their cameras on this side of the driveway.

Mr. Griffin. Did you talk to any newspeople yourself?

Chief Batchelor. I didn't myself. I was present there. I don't remember exactly who directed, whether it was Chief Curry or Stevenson or myself, but I mean it was three of us standing there, and we all agreed that this needed to be done, and one of us told them.

Mr. Griffin. Now this first trip down to the basement, what did you do besides direct that the two cars on either side of the garage entrance be moved, and that the camera be moved back there?

Chief Batchelor. We went over in here, and there were some detectives around in here.

Mr. Griffin. Now can you indicate in words what you are referring to on the map?

Chief Batchelor. They were along in here. There was a man over here by this elevator.

Mr. Griffin. This is——

Chief Batchelor. City hall elevator.

Mr. Griffin. The first place that you referred to was the entrance way in the garage. Were some people congregated there, and was there a man at the No. 1 or No. 2 elevator?

Chief Batchelor. Yes.

11 Mr. Griffin. Do you know who he was?

Chief Batchelor. No; I didn't pay any attention to who he was. It was a uniformed man standing over there. I later learned this was a reserve that was over there, but I didn't pay any attention.

Mr. Griffin. The uniformed man was a reserve officer?

Chief Batchelor. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. Who did you later learn that from?

Chief Batchelor. In the course of the investigation later.

Mr. Griffin. I see. Some days after Oswald was shot?

Chief Batchelor. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. Now after going over near the elevator where the uniformed reserve officer was, what did you do next?

Chief Batchelor. Well, we went back upstairs. And Stevenson had gone at this time. We went down this first time to see the layout, and there wasn't too many here. We went back upstairs, and Chief Stevenson sent some detectives down, and brought his uniformed men in. I came down the last time, was just before the removal of the prisoner, and in the meantime I had contacted Mr. Fleming about the armored motor car.

Mr. Griffin. You came down three times?

Chief Batchelor. I went up once, and then Stevenson and I came down and looked this thing over, and then down with Curry, and then the last time.

Mr. Griffin. On the first occasion when you were down there, you say you saw this uniformed reserve officer. Did you later learn what his name was?

Chief Batchelor. I don't remember it. It is in the report.

Mr. Griffin. Would you mark with an "X" on the map where that reserve officer was standing and the approximate time?

Chief Batchelor. (marking). He was standing over here.

Mr. Griffin. Let the record indicate that he has marked it with a circle. This is again somewhere around 9:15 or 9:30?

Chief Batchelor. Somewhere along there.

Mr. Griffin. Did you learn in the course of your investigation his name?

Chief Batchelor. I don't recall his name.

Mr. Griffin. Would that appear anywhere in the report, do you think?

Chief Batchelor. Not in that report. It would appear in the reports that were made by Captain Jones in the course of investigating who was where. You have a diagram similar to this with everybody marked on it, and he is on one of those.

Mr. Griffin. Had he been stationed there by somebody?

Chief Batchelor. Yes; now I could be mistaken about the exact time I saw him there. That is, whether it was this trip or the trip before. I could be mistaken about it, but I do remember seeing him here when we came down.

Mr. Griffin. Excuse me, do you want to mark the map then what the alternate time might be? You might write whatever time you think it was.

Chief Batchelor. (marking). He was there before then, but I am talking about when I may have seen him there.

Mr. Griffin. Now, Chief, after you left the basement area on this first trip, where did you go?

Chief Batchelor. We went back upstairs to the office.

Mr. Griffin. Did Chief Stevenson go back up with you?

Chief Batchelor. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. When you got back up on the third floor, were there news media personnel on the third floor?

Chief Batchelor. There were some up there.

Mr. Griffin. I take it, it was not what you consider a crowded condition.

Chief Batchelor. No.

Mr. Griffin. Were there television cameras still there?

Chief Batchelor. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. When you arrived at 8 o'clock in the morning, were there TV cameras up there?

Chief Batchelor. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. Were the TV cameras manned at 8 o'clock in the morning?

Chief Batchelor. Yes; the best I remember, they were.

12 Mr. Griffin. Do you recall what TV stations had cameras up there at that time?

Chief Batchelor. It was KRLD and WFAA, if I remember right. And I could be mistaken about the WFAA. It could have been WBAP.

Mr. Griffin. How do you happen to remember KRLD?

Chief Batchelor. They were the first ones in there and they had their truck parked outside. And also, I am pretty sure it was WFAA, because WFAA had a truck parked on the Harwood Street side.

Mr. Griffin. Were you able to tell at 8 o'clock in the morning if they were shooting footage?

Chief Batchelor. I couldn't tell. All the time that I remember, they had these little viewers in the back of the thing and you could see through them and see what was going on through them, look through the camera. Whether they were shooting footage, there wasn't anything to shoot that morning. It was pretty quiet.

Mr. Griffin. Now, the second trip when you came back upstairs after your first trip downstairs, where did you go?

Chief Batchelor. After the first trip, I came back up to again get in touch with Mr. Stevenson and tell him.

Mr. Griffin. Fleming?

Chief Batchelor. Fleming, I mean, and tell him what the height of that thing was. Then he told me, well, I will just send both trucks down there and you can take the one you want.

Mr. Griffin. This second phone call, was Mr. Fleming at home?

Chief Batchelor. Yes, sir.

Mr. Griffin. Do you know whether Fleming had been contacted by anyone in your office or Decker's office or anybody else prior to your first phone call to him?

Chief Batchelor. I would think not. He couldn't, because this was his first knowledge of it.

Mr. Griffin. Could you tell us what else you said to him? What else this conversation involved?

Chief Batchelor. I don't recall saying anything other than expressing our appreciation for his help. And he said he would send both of the trucks down. I told him how to bring the trucks. I told him to bring them east on Harwood—I mean on Commerce Street, and that we would back it down the ramp so that we would be leaving the ramp in the right direction when they pulled out.

Mr. Griffin. Up to the time that you had this second conversation with Fleming, had you discussed with anybody the route by which you would take Oswald to the county jail?

Chief Batchelor. Nobody but Chief Curry, that I recall, and probably Chief Stevenson. As a matter of fact, this route that they were to take was worked out more between Stevenson and Curry and Fritz than it was with me. My primary job here was to get the truck and get the cars placed, and it was decided that Chief Curry would lead the car down there, followed by a car of detectives, and then the armored car, and then followed by another car of detectives, and then followed by Stevenson and I in a rear car.

Mr. Griffin. This planned route of the movement was to go from Commerce to Central Expressway, left to Elm Street, then down Elm Street?

Chief Batchelor. To Houston; yes, sir.

Mr. Griffin. Now as a result of that decision, were any cars or officers called in from the field?

Chief Batchelor. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. Who?

Chief Batchelor. Talbert called his officers in. He had called and scattered them up. And then there was some discussion about taking it down Main Street, and I am not too sure where I got this information, but anyway, he sent a sergeant and moved those officers over a block to Main Street.

Mr. Griffin. Why was the route changed?

Chief Batchelor. Well, I don't know. The route was changed without my knowing it, really. When they decided to take Oswald in an automobile instead of the armored car.

13 Mr. Griffin. Who participated in that decision?

Chief Batchelor. Chief Curry, Chief Stevenson, Captain Fritz, I believe—I was not in there when it was discussed.

Mr. Griffin. After you talked to Fleming the second time what did you do?

Chief Batchelor. Then he said he would send them over, and we went down there to get the cars lined up. This must have been, oh, probably 10:45, 10:30 to 10:45. I went downstairs and I saw the basement well covered. We had a man at the top of the ramp on Main Street. We had several men in the basement leading into the garage area just before you get to the jail office, and I went through there, and Stevenson was with me.

Mr. Griffin. Let me interrupt you here, Chief. I think I will pull out another map so that we can mark it. I am going to mark this map, for the purpose of identification, "Dallas, Tex., Chief Batchelor, March 23, 1964, Deposition Exhibit 5001." Now I want you to use this exhibit, Chief, to indicate what you saw on this second trip downstairs, which you indicated would be what time?

Chief Batchelor. I came out of the elevator into the basement and saw a number of officers across this area right here. There were several detectives.

Mr. Griffin. Would you mark that with "X's"?

Chief Batchelor. [Marking.] Detective there. We walked through here. We noticed these cameras had been moved out.

Mr. Griffin. You are talking about the passageway past the jail office?

Chief Batchelor. Past this jail office here. I noticed that inside the jail office there were three or four photographers inside the jail office.

Mr. Griffin. At that point, you were at the jail office door nearest to the ramp driveway, and you looked in that door and you saw some news people?

Chief Batchelor. Yes; photographers.

Mr. Griffin. Did you recognize any of them?

Chief Batchelor. I don't recall them. We went in there and moved them out. We went and instructed the jail supervisor that there was to be no one in that jail office except officers.

Mr. Griffin. Who was the supervisor?

Chief Batchelor. Lieutenant Wiggins. And we moved them out and we instructed the reporters, and there were a number of them down there at that time, by no means all of them, that—later there were, but there was a good many—we told them they would have to stand back over here.

Mr. Griffin. That is against the railing?

Chief Batchelor. Along the railing. And they had set up two TV cameras behind this railing.

Mr. Griffin. Would you mark with an "S," where the two cameras were set up?

Chief Batchelor. [Marking.] Then there was another one right here.

Mr. Griffin. Was that third camera there when you came down at 10:45?

Chief Batchelor. I don't think so. That was the one sitting over there. These were the two sitting out here.

Mr. Griffin. Now the two cameras that you placed there had been originally near the record room?

Chief Batchelor. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. When did you see them near the record room? When you came in in the morning?

Chief Batchelor. No. That trip down after we came down.

Mr. Griffin. Would you take Exhibit 5000, and would you mark those two TV cameras that you saw on the first trip?

Chief Batchelor. [Marks.]

Mr. Griffin. I believe you said that that time was 9:15?

Chief Batchelor. Yes; now they had been moved here.

Mr. Griffin. Behind the railing?

Chief Batchelor. Behind the railing, and this was one sitting here. That was dead.

Mr. Griffin. You are marking in the entrance to the garage off the Main Street ramp?

Chief Batchelor. Yes.

14 Mr. Griffin. That camera that you are marking there in the garage?

Chief Batchelor. Not operating.

Mr. Griffin. By that, do you mean that the——

Chief Batchelor. It wasn't hooked up.

Mr. Griffin. But the other two cameras which you have marked behind the railing, were they taking shots when you walked down?

Chief Batchelor. No; I don't know that they were at that time. They didn't have any lights on, no floodlights on, and they had been told to keep their floodlights off. They didn't turn them on.

Mr. Griffin. Prior to the time that you came down on the second trip at about 10:45, did you discuss with anybody up on the third floor where you wanted these TV people placed and what you wanted done with the lights?

Chief Batchelor. We told the men down here, and we told the reporters down here, just kind of announced to them.

Mr. Griffin. As you walked down?

Chief Batchelor. Yes. Some of them—one of the supervisors came in and said they couldn't get them all along here and wanted to know if it would be all right to put them along here?

Mr. Griffin. You are indicating at the bottom of the Main Street ramp?

Chief Batchelor. Main Street entrance ramp.

Mr. Griffin. Between the railing and jail office?

Chief Batchelor. And the wall.

Mr. Griffin. Yes. They wanted to put their cameras there?

Chief Batchelor. No; it wasn't cameras. They just wanted to stand there.

Mr. Griffin. What did you tell them?

Chief Batchelor. Since we couldn't get them in there, he told them if they would stay back, they could stay there. And there were some officers that were stationed along there to hold them back.

Mr. Griffin. But your original hope was that all of the news media people could be in the entrance to the garage?

Chief Batchelor. And they were scattered along here, too. Scattered along the entrance into the garage itself and along here, but some of them, there just wasn't room for them, and some got across here.

Mr. Griffin. How long did you remain downstairs on this second trip?

Chief Batchelor. I don't think this is the second trip. I think, well, I guess it is. But I came down here, and Stevenson and I looked this thing over.

Mr. Griffin. You are going to have to indicate in words.

Chief Batchelor. We looked over the basement to see that the security was in order. I noticed an officer at the Main Street ramp.

We walked up the Commerce Street ramp and noticed a crowd of people across Commerce Street, and was told by one of the supervisors that they were keeping them across there, and that they allowed no one on the side next to the police station of the city hall except officers. And the only people over here were either reservists or regular officers. They had officers across the street. Chief Lunday told me they had officers down at the courthouse across from the jail entrance. Was keeping that crowd back there.

Mr. Griffin. Now as you looked along the sidewalk on the north side of Commerce Street, from the Commerce Street ramp to Pearl—from the Commerce Street ramp to Pearl Expressway—in other words, in the direction of the municipal building, could you see how the police officers were spaced, and how many officers were along the north side of Commerce Street?

Chief Batchelor. Well, it is a good ways to Pearl, and the crowd didn't extend anywhere near down to Pearl Street. It was mostly just across from the building up to Harwood Street rather than Pearl. There weren't that many people there. It wasn't like a parade. I guess there were, oh, a couple of hundred people across there, perhaps.

Mr. Griffin. Do you know whether or not there was a police officer at the corner of Pearl and Commerce?

Chief Batchelor. I don't know. I don't remember whether there was or not. I'm sure there must have been one stationed there.

Mr. Griffin. When you walked out on the sidewalk and were talking about this 10:45 trip down to the basement, what did you do?

15 Chief Batchelor. I turned around and walked back in there. They had parked Chief Curry's car out east of the Commerce Street ramp on the street, double parked, parallel to some parked cars that were already there. Then I drove my car out of the basement and parked it west of the Commerce Street ramp exit, and I double parked it also right behind his, the intention being that when this convoy came out, that he would lead off and I would drop in behind Chief Curry with Chief Stevenson.

Mr. Griffin. Would you mark on the map where Chief Curry's car was and where your car was placed on Commerce Street?

Chief Batchelor. This confuses me a little here. There is not any offset.

Mr. Griffin. Unfortunately, this black line that confuses you represents a basement wall. It doesn't represent the street.

Chief Batchelor. [Marks on map.]

Mr. Griffin. What did you do after you moved your car out on Commerce Street?

Chief Batchelor. Shortly after that just within a few minutes these armored cars arrived.

Mr. Griffin. Where were you standing when the armored cars arrived?

Chief Batchelor. I was in the basement, but somebody told me down there, shouted that these armored cars had arrived, so I came up again out of the ramp to look at the two cars to see which one we wanted. I looked in the inside of the larger armored car and decided that this one is the one we would have to use because it had room not only for the prisoner, but two guards to be placed in there with him.

And this one—Mr. Hall, I believe is his name—I think it is Mr. Hall that drove the truck up there. And this truck was too large or too tall to drive clear to the foot of the basement ramp. It wouldn't clear this ceiling at that point, so I asked Mr. Hall to back it in, and he started backing it in, and he got the truck inside of the ramp with all of the body inside and the cab on the outside, on the sidewalk. He stopped and suggested that he not go to the bottom of the ramp with it because of its weight. He was afraid that in trying to pull out, he might kill the motor and stall it on the ramp, and suggested that since it blocked the entrance, if we could use it from that point, he would rather it go from that point.

Mr. Griffin. At the point this conversation took place, had you or anyone else to your knowledge told Hall what route would be taken?

Chief Batchelor. No; we told him he would follow a lead car, and pointed out the car that he would follow.

Mr. Griffin. At that point, did you indicate to him how soon it would be before Oswald would be brought down?

Chief Batchelor. No, sir; this truck was parked in the ramp, and I thought that this would be a safe place to park it because on one side of the truck next to the west wall of the ramp there was only about 12 inches of space. And between the truck and the east wall, there was only 18 to 24 inches of space. I placed an officer between the west wall and the truck, which totally blocked it. And I placed two officers between the truck and the east wall, and that totally blocked that. Then I believe it was Lieutenant Smart and I got in the truck and searched it. We found a soft drink bottle in the truck, which we took out. I found a loose bolt lying on the floor, which I took out.

There was a device on the back side of the truck which was sort of a gauge and a lever which I didn't understand what it was and I asked Mr. Hall what that was, and he said it was an emergency brake in the event something happened to the driver, that whoever was in the back of the truck could pull that lever and stop the truck. We got these items out of the truck and took them away, left the back doors of the truck open to receive the prisoner, and then I went back down to the foot of the ramp and waited, and in a few minutes shortly after the arrival of the truck, Chief Stevenson came down, and this was, oh, nearly 11:30. It was just a matter of minutes before—and told me of the change of plans, and that they were going to send the truck in convoy down through Elm Street, and that the car carrying——

Mr. Griffin. You mean Main Street?

Chief Batchelor. No; Elm Street, and that the truck carrying Oswald and16 a car of detectives would drop out of the convoy, out on Main Street and drive down Main Street by themselves. In other words, the truck was to be a decoy, and the lead car and all the other cars would follow it on down Elm Street, while the car carrying the prisoner would go down Main Street.

Mr. Griffin. What security was there going to be?

Chief Batchelor. We had moved the officers over from Elm Street to Main Street on the corner. The only security would have been a car carrying detectives, following the car carrying the prisoner and detectives.

Mr. Griffin. How were the officers moved, by a radio dispatcher, or was somebody sent out?

Chief Batchelor. A sergeant was sent out, a three-wheeler. Talbert had it done. I don't recall who did that.

Mr. Griffin. Now, did you know at this point whether there was an officer stationed at the corner of Main and Commerce? Main and Pearl Expressway?

Chief Batchelor. No; I don't know whether there was or not.

(Short recess had.)

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. Griffin. Why don't we state this for the record, that we have had a recess and an off-the-record discussion between Mr. Griffin and Chief Batchelor, and so that the record may be clear about where the policemen who were to guard the route which was originally planned for the transfer of Oswald, on the streets of the city of Dallas, I will let Chief Batchelor at this time explain where they were originally to be stationed, and where they were moved to.

Chief Batchelor. They were originally stationed along Elm Street, and later were moved to Main Street where the prisoner would actually go.

Mr. Griffin. I believe that before we took the recess that I was asking you if at the time that you were down in the basement and examining the armored car, you were aware that a man was or was not stationed at the corner of Main and Pearl Expressway?

Chief Batchelor. I do not know. I was not aware. I hadn't given that any thought at the time. Actually, Main and Expressway would pose no traffic problem of a turning movement, at that point, because Pearl Expressway, which is a one-way street, and the convoy would have been next to the curb, and it would pose no problem at this point, trafficwise.

Mr. Griffin. When Chief Stevenson came downstairs and told you that the route had been changed, where did he tell you that the caravan would turn off Commerce Street?

Chief Batchelor. On Central Expressway.

Mr. Griffin. When it turned left on Central Expressway, where would it next turn?

Chief Batchelor. The convoy would go to Elm Street, but the prisoner and a car of detectives would turn off at Main.

Mr. Griffin. Now, did you discuss with him the reasoning behind this decoy?

Chief Batchelor. I merely asked him why the change, and he said they decided to change it up in the Homicide Bureau in a discussion with Chief Curry, because if anyone attacked, they would have the prisoner in a car separate from the convoy and the public would not know this, and they thought this would be a wise move.

Mr. Griffin. Now you all were aware that the TV cameras were going to be focusing on the car or the vehicle that Oswald was placed in, didn't you? The people in the downtown streets wouldn't be able to see that, but there were also newsmen down there who were broadcasting and they would be able to tell people listening in on the radio what car?

Chief Batchelor. You are arguing with me. I had nothing to do with moving the prisoner.

Mr. Griffin. I didn't mean to argue with you, chief.

Chief Batchelor. I didn't make the decision and I don't know whether it was wise or not. It is a moot question now.

Mr. Griffin. Well, now, what next happened after you talked with Chief Stevenson about this change in plan?

Chief Batchelor. This happened when he told me about it, just moments before they actually brought him down, and he told me they were bringing a17 car up on the ramp, two cars up on the ramp, one to carry the prisoner and one to carry the detectives.

Mr. Griffin. Let me go back one bit here. You stated that you came down. This one time you are talking about was an episode where you went through the armored car, and this would have been your third trip downstairs?

Chief Batchelor. And my last one.

Mr. Griffin. And your last one. Now the first trip that you came down the stairs was when you saw these reserve officers over by the elevators?

Chief Batchelor. Actually, that was the second trip down, I believe.

Mr. Griffin. That would have been about what time?

Chief Batchelor. Oh, probably 10 or 10:15, somewhere along in there.

Mr. Griffin. I see. So that the trip that we have been referring to in the past, the 10:45 trip, is really most clearly distinguished by the——

Chief Batchelor. I may be a little mixed up on my time, but the last trip, the trip we are talking about when we searched the armored car and put that in place, that was fairly close to the movement of the prisoner, and I would say somewhere around 10:45 to 11 o'clock.

Mr. Griffin. Now that happened somewhere around 11:20?

Chief Batchelor. About 10:45.

Mr. Griffin. But you never went back upstairs, from the time that you moved your automobile up onto Commerce Street and the time that you searched the armored car?

Chief Batchelor. No; Chief Stevenson did, but I didn't.

Mr. Griffin. How long would you say you were downstairs from the time that you walked down and moved your car out on the street and Oswald arrived?

Chief Batchelor. Possibly 30 minutes or 35.

Mr. Griffin. Now after you finished examining the armored car and you talked with Chief Stevenson, did you get a chance to look at the placement of the news personnel, the news media people in the basement?

Chief Batchelor. Shortly before he came down, yes.

Mr. Griffin. Now looking toward the Main Street ramp, how many rows deep, if there was more than one row at all, were the policemen who were blocking the Main Street ramp?

Chief Batchelor. How many rows deep were the policemen?

Mr. Griffin. I'm sorry, the news people, if you understand what I mean?

Chief Batchelor. There was about, as I remember it, about two deep along there. Some places there might have been a third man behind, but most about two deep.

Mr. Griffin. Would you come here and mark along the Main Street ramp about how deep these people were?

Chief Batchelor. [Marking.] There weren't many along there because there were cameras there.

Mr. Griffin. How many people would you estimate were in that area there?

Chief Batchelor. Oh, there couldn't have been too many in that particular area there. It is only 15 feet wide, maybe 20 or 25 in there, maybe 30.

Mr. Griffin. Now, just before Oswald was brought down, where were the rest of the news people placed?

Chief Batchelor. They were along here.

Mr. Griffin. That is blocking the garage entrance?

Chief Batchelor. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. About how many people would you say were in that area?

Chief Batchelor. I don't know. Altogether there must have been, gee, we had around 70 policemen in that basement altogether, and there must have been 60 or 70 reporters and photographers and press people. They were fairly deep across here. But this is wider and they were two or three deep across there.

Mr. Griffin. You want to mark in there where you have indicated?

Chief Batchelor. [Marks chart.]

Mr. Griffin. Would you say that they were deeper across the entrance to the garage than they were blocking the Main Street ramp, or were they about the same?

18 Chief Batchelor. I wasn't paying too close attention to how deep they were. There was more than one line of them.

Mr. Griffin. There was?

Chief Batchelor. Yes; they were two to three deep across here [marking].

Mr. Griffin. Were there police officers in there also?

Chief Batchelor. Yes; there was police officers intermingling all along here.

Mr. Griffin. Had you given any instructions to the police officers up to this point as to how they should stand in relationship, where they should be facing?

Chief Batchelor. No, sir.

Mr. Griffin. Now after talking with Chief Stevenson, what next happened?

Chief Batchelor. Almost immediately the car containing Lieutenant Pierce and I believe Sergeant Maxey pulled out of here, and these people had to step back, and they pulled out, and the detective cars were pulled here in on the ramp and backed into position.

Mr. Griffin. Chief, at this point, just before Oswald was brought down, were there any automobiles in the portion of the garage which would be the north half of the garage, do you recall?

Chief Batchelor. As I recall it, there were one or two vehicles parked back in here, police vehicles.

Mr. Griffin. I see. Were there any police vehicles, and if you don't have any recollection, state that. Do you recall if there were any police vehicles along the railing of the Main Street ramp?

Chief Batchelor. I don't recall. If there were, they were back from this entrance. There weren't any in the immediate entrance to the jail door.

Mr. Griffin. Do you recall if there were any people other than the people manning these TV cameras, behind the railing?

Chief Batchelor. I don't recall that. I don't think there were, because these people here went up to just about where the cameras were. This curved a little bit around here. It wasn't just a straight line. It would curve a little bit like this, then, but they were standing away from the front of those cameras, because those cameras were on a tripod at a level on the floor, which was lower than this ramp level.

Mr. Griffin. Now, as Pierce and Maxey's car went up the ramp, did you watch it go up the ramp?

Chief Batchelor. No, sir.

Mr. Griffin. What did you do as it went up the ramp?

Chief Batchelor. I don't recall. I was up here. I was more concerned with this truck here and getting this truck out of there when this thing started.

Mr. Griffin. Did you watch Pierce and Maxey's car go through the line of newsmen?

Chief Batchelor. I saw it. I wasn't——

Mr. Griffin. Were you paying any attention?

Chief Batchelor. Not particularly. I do remember seeing it.

Mr. Griffin. After Pierce and Maxey's car broke through the line of newsmen, what do you remember next happening?

Chief Batchelor. I remember backing these or pulling up these two detective cars that were to carry Oswald, and one detective pulled up here a little ways, and he had to pull up a little further so this one could get up, and they then backed up. And this one had hardly gotten in place, barely had stopped, when somebody shouted, "Here he comes."

Mr. Griffin. All right, now, are you sure—how certain are you that these two detective cars pulled out after Pierce and Maxey?

Chief Batchelor. I don't think Pierce and Maxey could have gotten out with those two detective cars where they were.

Mr. Griffin. Sounds pretty good to me.

Chief Batchelor. While they were in place, they couldn't have pulled around here, because they were blocking this entrance here.

Mr. Griffin. All right. Now, who drove those two detective cars?

Chief Batchelor. I don't recall. Men out of the Homicide Bureau, but I don't know which ones.

Mr. Griffin. Are they listed in this report, do you recall?

19 Chief Batchelor. I don't think they are listed in that report. I am pretty sure they are not.

Mr. Griffin. Detective Brown?

Chief Batchelor. Where do you see that?

Mr. Griffin. It is on page 32. "Stevenson then proceeded across the driveway to the entrance to the garage where Detective C. W. Brown, driving one car, and Detective Dhority, driving the second car, was preparing to pull the cars behind the armored car." Do you remember Brown or Dhority walking to the cars in the basement?

Chief Batchelor. I wasn't directing my attention to them at the moment they did that.

Mr. Griffin. Do you know or have you heard whether they were sitting in those cars for a long period of time, or a few minutes, or whether they——

Chief Batchelor. I don't know, but I imagine so. I think they came down for that express purpose, after this plan was changed.

Mr. Griffin. Where were you standing as the rear car—that is, the car closest to the exit from the jail office——

Chief Batchelor. I was standing over in here.

Mr. Griffin. Would you place an "X" on the map where you were standing?

Chief Batchelor. Well, I don't remember exactly where I was standing at the time that they pulled those cars up, but I think I was standing over here, and then moved to this position as they were backing in, because I had been talking to Chief Stevenson just about that time, and we were talking right up in here.

Mr. Griffin. Now at the time you heard the shots fired, would you place on this map where these two automobiles were and where you were standing?

Chief Batchelor. One car was right here, approximately, and the other car was ahead of it, and I am not drawing this in very good proportion, but this is the order they were in, and I was standing, and this I know in good order, because I was standing about midway of this thing, which was along about the back fender of this car, that I was standing right along here. But these cars were larger than that.

Mr. Griffin. Why don't you cross out that Ford car there and redraw it up where it was?

Chief Batchelor. I was standing here, and this one was back here more in this position.

Mr. Griffin. Would you put your name where you have made the circle?

Chief Batchelor. (Marks on chart.)

Mr. Griffin. Now do you remember what other officers or people were around you?

Chief Batchelor. No; I don't remember who. There was a whole bunch of people.

Mr. Griffin. What happened when you heard the shot fired? What did you do?

Chief Batchelor. Well, actually before the shot was fired, when I was standing along here, and when somebody shouted, "Here he comes." I started to go to that truck, that armored truck and close the doors on it, the back doors so it could take off. And I turned to do that when I heard the shot. I hadn't taken over a step or two over to the door when he was shot.

Mr. Griffin. Then what did you do?

Chief Batchelor. I turned around and looked back and came over there. There was a whole group of people had him down. It was a big——

Mr. Griffin. Had Ruby down?

Chief Batchelor. Had Ruby down. They had pulled Oswald into the jail office, and then pulled Ruby in behind him.

I went into the jail office to look at them, and they had Ruby down on the floor on his back and was trying to handcuff him.

Mr. Griffin. Let's focus on the time when they had Ruby down on the ground out there on the ramp, the ramp area. Where did you stand at that point?

Chief Batchelor. I stood off in the crowd. I didn't even see what was going on. There was such a crowd.

20 Mr. Griffin. Did you hear Ruby say anything at that point?

Chief Batchelor. No, sir.

Mr. Griffin. Did you hear any of the police officers say anything?

Chief Batchelor. No, sir; not when I walked right up there to it. But I did hear someone shout, "Jack, don't you so-and-so," but this was before they got him down. I mean, this was almost simultaneous with the shot.

Mr. Griffin. Did you follow Ruby and Oswald into the jail office then?

Chief Batchelor. After a little bit, a minute or two after, I remained in the jail office and asked Lieutenant Wiggins if they had called an ambulance, and he said they had.

I walked over and looked at Oswald, and this intern had come in and was giving him some pressure on his lower rib section.

Mr. Griffin. Where did you see Ruby at that time?

Chief Batchelor. I saw him on the floor. I couldn't see him too well. There was several men on top. He was still struggling in the jail office, but they had already gotten the gun away from him and they were trying to get him handcuffed and get him down and laying still, but he was fighting them.

Mr. Griffin. Did you hear him say anything?

Chief Batchelor. No; I don't recall anything he said.

Mr. Griffin. Did you hear the officers say anything to him?

Chief Batchelor. No.

Mr. Griffin. How long did you remain there?

Chief Batchelor. Just a few minutes. The ambulance came almost immediately. It was just—I walked out of there before the ambulance came and walked back. Someone shouted right after this happened, and there was a lot of confusion, and someone shouted, "Don't let anybody out."

There were a bunch of reporters that started running like they were frightened. I suppose they were running to telephones, but they tried to run up the Main Street ramp, and I remember very clearly the officer at the top of the ramp pulling his gun and said, "Get back down."

They turned around and walked back down, but most of them escaped through the corridor. Not out the ramp, but went out through the corridor.

Mr. Griffin. This is the corridor that leads from the record room to Commerce Street?

Chief Batchelor. Well, yes. They escaped out the corridor off the hallway that leads in front of the jail office into the Records Bureau, and then to Commerce Street.

Mr. Griffin. Did they escape out Commerce Street?

Chief Batchelor. I don't know where they went from there, whether they went upstairs to use the telephone, or out in the street. But there would have been nobody over there that heard the command not to let them out. This was kind of a spontaneous command.

Mr. Griffin. What percentage of people would you say got out of the basement? News media people got out of the basement that way?

Chief Batchelor. I don't know. They scattered pretty quickly. Still a lot hung around after it was over. I would say half, at least, got out that way.

Mr. Griffin. Now, were you in the jail office when Ruby was taken upstairs in the elevator?

Chief Batchelor. Was I in the jail office when he was taken upstairs?

Mr. Griffin. Yes.

Chief Batchelor. No, sir.

Mr. Griffin. Where were you?

Chief Batchelor. I went as soon as the ambulance came and got him, I ran up the ramp and told him to get that truck out of there, that it was blocking the entrance to the ramp, and then I left and went upstairs and told Chief Curry what happened. By the time I got up there, somebody called him and he knew what happened.

Mr. Griffin. What did you do next?

Chief Batchelor. Lord, I don't remember what I did next. We sat there kind of dumbfounded for a while.

Mr. Griffin. Did there come a time during the rest of the day when you talked with Ruby?

21 Chief Batchelor. I never did talk with Ruby.

Mr. Griffin. Do you recall the rumors, stories that began to come in about how Ruby got down into the basement?

Chief Batchelor. In the course of the next day or two we heard lots of rumors that he had a press card. This was the prevailing rumor, that he had a press card, but there wasn't a press card found on him.

Mr. Griffin. I am trying to direct your attention to the events fairly close after the time of, the time Oswald was shot. What did you do in connection with attempting to find out how Ruby got down in that basement?

Chief Batchelor. I don't know that I did anything specifically to try to find that out. We began to think in terms of an overall investigation into the matter.

Mr. Griffin. Did Chief Curry convene any sort of meeting or gather together any of the top officers to discuss this?

Chief Batchelor. He discussed it with Lumpkin and Stevenson and I. I don't recall exactly when this happened, whether it happened just—I am sure it didn't happen just immediately after it happened, because there were obvious things that would take place first, and that would be the investigation, that homicide would carry on, an interrogation of Ruby himself.

We even got some rumors the next day that some of our officers had borrowed money from a bank and Ruby was a cosigner on the note, and we ran a check at every bank in Dallas, but the banks where this—the most probable one was the Republic Bank. We ran a check there by sending the name of everybody that was in that basement over to the bank, and having them check for us and see if they had any notes on these people.

We also checked with, I believe, the Mercantile, and we checked with the Oak Cliff Bank and Trust Co., because Ruby happened to live out in that area.

We didn't know whether he had an account, but none of them found anything to date.

Mr. Griffin. This meeting or a little conference that you referred to that you and Curry and Lumpkin and Stevenson had, about how long after Oswald was shot did this occur?

Chief Batchelor. I don't remember whether that was that day or the next day, but it resulted in Chief Curry pulling some men out of the special service division with Captain Jones in charge, and we had about six men on the team besides the captain to investigate every aspect of this, which was in terms of locating all of the people that were assigned down there, locating as many of the press as they knew were down there, and getting statements from all of these people. Then also we discovered this matter of this money order, and we followed that thing out.

Mr. Griffin. Did you personally talk with Officer Dean at any time on the Sunday that Oswald was shot? After Ruby shot Oswald, did you talk to Dean?

Chief Batchelor. Dean said something to me, and I don't remember whether it was Sunday or not. I believe it was Sunday afternoon, sometime, or evening, to the effect that he had been up and talked to Ruby with Mr. Sorrels, I believe was present there, and that Ruby told him he came down that ramp.

He told him that an officer, that a car came in, and an officer stopped and talked with the fellows in the car, and while he was talking to them, he walked down there.

There is nothing to indicate that the officer did talk to the officers that went out other than maybe to speak to them. I mean, but it appears evident now that while the officer did walk away momentarily a few feet from the entrance is when he got in.

Mr. Griffin. When Dean made this statement to you, did you know that he had spoken to a newspaper reporter also?

Chief Batchelor. No, sir.

Mr. Griffin. Do you know whether this conversation you had with Dean was before or after he spoke to the newspaper people?

Chief Batchelor. No, sir; I don't know.

Mr. Griffin. Did you have an occasion to talk with an officer by the name of Newman that day?

Chief Batchelor. No.

22 Mr. Griffin. Did you have occasion to talk to Officer Vaughn on that day?

Chief Batchelor. No; over on top of the ramp?

Mr. Griffin. Yes.

Chief Batchelor. No; as a matter of fact, I never have talked with Vaughn. And I wasn't talking to Dean in the nature of interrogating. He voluntarily told me this.

Mr. Griffin. Was anybody else present when Dean told you that?

Chief Batchelor. I don't recall that there was. I don't think there was.

Mr. Griffin. Do you recall where this conversation occurred?

Chief Batchelor. No; it was there in the city hall, but I don't remember exactly where. It was probably up on the third floor.

Mr. Griffin. Now I am going to mark for identification, "Dallas, Tex., Chief Batchelor, March 23, 1964, Exhibit 5002."

Can you tell us briefly what that is, Chief?

Chief Batchelor. That is a monthly assignment board or bulletin, which has the names of all the members of the police department in it and their assignments for the month of November 1963.

Mr. Griffin. Is that a true and accurate roster of the people who were employed in the department on the day that Ruby shot Oswald?

Chief Batchelor. It would be, with the exception of any few that might have been reassigned, or any few that might have, in the course of the month, been transferred from one division to another, which occurs frequently. But for the most part it is correct.

Mr. Griffin. Or, also a few that had been hired?

Chief Batchelor. Or a few that had been hired during that month. They are not on there; yes, sir.

Mr. Griffin. Now you and I have spoken at some length during the last day, not counting the length of time we spent here. Do you recall that in your office this morning we talked some about security measures in the protection of the President?

Chief Batchelor. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. Do you have any suggestions that you would make as to how, as a result of your experience, you think the President might be more effectively protected?

Chief Batchelor. I don't know how you would correct this exactly. One of the problems that we experienced was the fact that such, of such a short time to do some of the planning that we had.

We didn't know until just one afternoon, actually, in terms of Love Field security, actually where the President's plane would be placed.

We didn't know until 2 days before his arrival what the parade route would be. This posed some problem in terms of assignment of personnel and properly instructing personnel as to what their procedures should be.

I think one thing that would be helpful would be for a standard general procedure of things that those responsible for protection of the President could put out to police departments such as certain standard types of coverage that would always apply.

Mr. Griffin. Can you give us any example from your own experience where this would have been useful on this unfortunate trip?

Chief Batchelor. One thing you need in a situation like this is explicit written instructions to officers as to such things as watching the crowd rather than the President.

This is a general accepted thing in most police departments.

Sometimes you have new personnel that comes in and they need to be told this specifically. We had an instance in which we were asked to guard all of the overpasses, railroad and vehicular, and we instructed the officers verbally that they were to let no unauthorized personnel on these overpasses. But there was no definition of what "authorized personnel" was.

And in one case, there were people on an overpass which the President had never reached.

Mr. Griffin. Was this the triple railroad overpass at the base of Elm Street?

Chief Batchelor. Yes; they would have just gone under, or would have gone under momentarily had he not been shot.

23 There were a number of railroad track workers on this overpass, and we had officers up there, but they considered them to be authorized personnel because they worked for the railroad, and they were all lined along there watching for the parade which never did go under them.

Mr. Griffin. How many persons do you remember having been up there?

Chief Batchelor. I was not there. I heard about it. I understand there were probably 10 or 12 people up there. But actually, there should be nobody over the immediate route the President goes under. But there are certainly, there seems to me, certain generally accepted procedures that, and certain general types of security that every police department ought to be aware of, that is standard operating procedure, plus whatever specific thing that the various circumstances might want done; some sort of suggested procedure on their part, with it published, that might be helpful to police organizations.

Mr. Griffin. I want to go off the record here a moment.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. Griffin. Let's go on the record on this.

We have been speaking off the record about other suggestions which Chief Batchelor has, and one of the things that he has pointed out is that there is not enough advance notice of what the Presidential route is going to be to enable the police department to satisfactorily handle the administrative problems of selecting people to place them at particular intersections.

Do you want to add any more to that statement that I have made of what you have just told me?

Chief Batchelor. No. I realize there is another aspect on this too, on the part of the Secret Service, that they want, that is, that they don't want too much advance notice to the public. This is the reason I am not criticizing.

(Further discussion off the record.)

Mr. Griffin. Let me go on the record and ask you a question here. Do you think, Chief, it would have been possible to station people in the middle of the downtown block with the instructions to watch various buildings in a periphery of their vision.

Chief Batchelor. Yes. This would be feasible. We did have men in the middle of the downtown, several of them in each block, they were primarily watching the crowd of people rather than the windows.

When you are in an area of skyscrapers and you are standing right at the foot of these skyscrapers, you couldn't see windows too far up more than just a few floors, but we did have men in the middle of the block, but they weren't instructed to watch the windows as much as they were to watch the people.

Mr. Griffin. Did these men actually have any specific instructions as to how they were to go about watching the people or the windows?

Chief Batchelor. We had experienced detectives down there in the immediate block watching in the crowd and then we had some reservists, too, and we had instructed our people in the course of training that when somebody comes by, that you are supposed to secure, that you are not supposed to watch that person, but supposed to watch the crowd.

Whether all of them remember this or not—when you don't get a President here but every number of years, why you don't know. That is the reason I think that in some places where they have these kind of people frequently, this is probably routine.

Mr. Griffin. Did you have men stationed in the neighborhood of Elm and Houston and the School Book Depository that were instructed to be watching the crowds?

Chief Batchelor. No, sir; I don't think anyone was stationed below Houston Street. At that point, I don't know whether any crowd along that particular point was even anticipated or not. It was away from the business section and it was not any buildings on either side of the street there, actually.

The School Book Depository faces on Elm Street, which is parallel to the Elm Street ramp that goes under the triple underpass.

It is a couple of hundred feet across from the street to that Building and there wasn't anybody placed down there.

24 Mr. Griffin. You don't recall that there was a police car stationed either along Elm Street or Houston near that intersection?

Chief Batchelor. There was a police car that preceded the two of them, as a matter of fact, that preceded the Presidential convoy. One was a quarter of a mile ahead and one was back of that one.

Mr. Griffin. I am referring to a stationary car at the intersection.

Chief Batchelor. No; there wasn't one, that I know of.

Mr. Griffin. Okay, I think that is it.

TESTIMONY OF ASSISTANT CHIEF CHARLES BATCHELOR RESUMED

The testimony of Assistant Chief Charles Batchelor was taken at 12:30 p.m., on April 1, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. Hubert. Chief Batchelor, I think that you made a deposition before Burt Griffin, a member of the advisory staff of the President's Commission, now on March 23, 1964, is that not a fact, sir?

Chief Batchelor. That is correct.

Mr. Hubert. I think also that you have now read the transcript of that deposition and that you have made certain corrections of typographical errors in pen and ink and by initialing those. You advise me now that you are willing to sign the deposition except that there are two statements, one on page 199, and one on page 219, that you wish to clarify, or change; is that correct?

Chief Batchelor. That is correct.

Mr. Hubert. Now chief, are you willing to consider this deposition as a continuation of the deposition taken by Mr. Griffin on the 23d?

Chief Batchelor. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Are you willing also to waive any notices that you would be entitled to before we begin this continuation of the deposition?

Chief Batchelor. That's correct.

Mr. Hubert. Do you consider yourself to be under the same oath that you were at the time you made the deposition before Mr. Griffin?

Chief Batchelor. I do.

Mr. Hubert. All right, sir. Now, I understand that you wish to comment, or change the following: On page 199, lines 9 and 10 read as follows:

"Chief Batchelor. You are arguing with me. I had nothing to do with moving the prisoner."

Now, Chief, what do you say about what I have just read?

Chief Batchelor. That statement was inadvertently incorrect. I wished to say that I had nothing to do with changing the plans of moving the prisoner.

Mr. Hubert. Now turning to page 219, we find that lines 11 through 14 read as follows, to wit:

"I don't know how you would correct this exactly. 'One of the problems that we experienced was the fact that such, of such a short time to do some of planning that we did'".

Do you wish to make a comment about that statement, sir?

Chief Batchelor. I don't recall the exact language I used in the statement, but the sentence is grammatically incorrect. It should read:

"One of the problems that we experienced was the fact that we had such a short time to do some of the planning that we had to do."

Mr. Hubert. Other than that, Chief, have you found that the transcription of your deposition is correct?

Chief Batchelor. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. All right, sir. Then, when these notes concerning the corrections have been typed out I think you will be in a position to sign the original deposition, now, making a notation that you signed it approving all except such as has been corrected this morning?

25 Chief Batchelor. That's correct.

Mr. Hubert. And then you will also sign the second deposition, as it were, which is this morning's deposition?

Chief Batchelor. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Thank you, sir.

TESTIMONY OF CHIEF JESSE E. CURRY

The testimony of Chief Jesse E. Curry was taken at 9:15 a.m., on April 15, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. Hubert. This is the deposition of Jesse E. Curry of the Dallas Police Department.

Mr. Curry, my name is Leon Hubert. I'm a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel of the President's Commission. Under the provisions of Executive Order of the President, No. 11130, dated November 29, 1963, the joint resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the President's Commission and in conformance with the Executive order and the joint resolution, I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you, Mr. Curry.

I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald.

In particular, as to you, Mr. Curry, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry of the security of Oswald, the transfer of Oswald, and so forth.

Now, Mr. Curry, I think you have appeared here today by virtue of an informal request——

Mr. Curry. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. By the Commission's General Counsel to appear here. It is my duty to state to you that under the rules adopted by the Commission, every witness who appears before the Commission is entitled to a 3-day written notice before his deposition can be taken. The rules also provide, however, that the 3-day written notice can be waived if a witness wishes to waive it and go ahead and testify, so I ask you now if you are ready and willing to testify now and are willing to waive the 3-day notice?

Mr. Curry. I am.

Mr. Hubert. Will you raise your hand and stand, sir, so that you may be sworn?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give before the Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. Curry. I do.

Mr. Hubert. Would you state your full name?

Mr. Curry. Jesse Edward Curry.

Mr. Hubert. Your age, please, sir?

Mr. Curry. Fifty years of age.

Mr. Hubert. Where do you reside?

Mr. Curry. 2508 Loving Avenue.

Mr. Hubert. Dallas?

Mr. Curry. Dallas, Tex.

Mr. Hubert. What is your present occupation, Chief?

Mr. Curry. Chief of Police, Dallas Police Department.

Mr. Hubert. And how long have you been occupying that position?

Mr. Curry. Since January 20, 1960.

Mr. Hubert. How long have you been with the Dallas Police Department altogether?

26 Mr. Curry. Since May 1, 1936.

Mr. Hubert. And how did you begin?

Mr. Curry. I began, I believe, as a traffic police officer—well, I worked in a squad car a few days as a patrolman, and then worked as a traffic officer for several months.

Mr. Hubert. How old were you when you began?

Mr. Curry. Twenty-three—I lacked a few months being twenty-three.

Mr. Hubert. What education have you, Chief?

Mr. Curry. I graduated from the Dallas high schools—Dallas Technical High School. I did not go to college. I studied a short time—optometry a short time after that, after graduating from high school.

Mr. Hubert. What employment did you have between leaving high school and joining the police force?

Mr. Curry. I worked a short time for Vitalic Battery Co., as I recall, and at the time I entered the police field, I owned a small cleaning and pressing shop out in East Dallas, which I owned and operated.

Mr. Hubert. Are you married?

Mr. Curry. Yes; I am.

Mr. Hubert. You have a family?

Mr. Curry. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Would you state who they are, how many children?

Mr. Curry. I have three step-children—no, it's two step-children, one son of my own and one daughter of my own.

Mr. Hubert. I take it that you're practically a lifetime resident of Dallas?

Mr. Curry. Yes; I moved here when I was less than a year old.

Mr. Hubert. It appears to me from what you have said that you began at the bottom of the ranks in the police department?

Mr. Curry. That's right.

Mr. Hubert. And would it be fair to say that you worked your way through, as it were?

Mr. Curry. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Up the line?

Mr. Curry. Yes, sir; I worked in practically every assignment the police department has, and through civil service examinations was able to gain promotions to a detective, sergeant, lieutenant of police, captain of police, inspector of police, and inspector of police is the highest civil service rank obtainable.

Mr. Hubert. When did you attain that rank, Mr. Curry, roughly?

Mr. Curry. I believe it was about 1951, along about that as inspector—I don't recall exactly.

Mr. Hubert. Does the obtaining of that rank in the civil service system involve special studies?

Mr. Curry. Well, you must make some special studies in order to compete with the other men who are trying to reach promotion through examination. During these years I won a fellowship to Northwestern University Traffic Institute and attended that school in 1945–46. I graduated from there. In 1951 I was sent to the FBI National Academy in Washington, D.C., and I graduated from that school.

Mr. Hubert. I wish you would tell us other schools or training sessions you have attended.

Mr. Curry. Well, I've been to several schools conducted in the Dallas area. I have been to 2 weeks training school by the department of public safety in Austin. I have been to several schools conducted by Southern Methodist University and the FBI here in the Dallas area through the years. I have also taken correspondence training courses from the City Managers' Association, and I believe that's about the extent of my training.

Mr. Hubert. Were you in service during the war, sir?

Mr. Curry. I was in what was called the CPA, Civilian Pilot Training. It was a program that was open to people who were over combat age—in the Air Force. We did not receive any pay when we first went in. We volunteered our services and we were taught to fly. We attended ground training school; I was assigned to Gainesville Junior College and flew out of Gainesville, out of the airfield there. I was then sent to TCU in Fort Worth where I continued27 my studies at TCU and flew out of Meacham Field, and then I was sent to Amarillo Air Force Base. We were not on the base, but we were assigned in that area and we waited there for, it seemed to me like 2 or 3 weeks and never received any training. We were then notified that we had an opportunity to either ask for release or discharge from the service because we understood—because of an oversupply of pilots, or else to remain in the program and be sent to various branches of the Air Force for various assignments.

At that time, I, along with my buddy whose father advised us that he thought it was best for us to get out—we applied for a discharge, and I was discharged, so I was in this about 11 months, at which time I was discharged and I returned to Dallas and I reported back to my draft board, and that's the last contact that I had with my draft board.

Mr. Hubert. And you went back to your duties?

Mr. Curry. I went back to my duties as police officer. I was assigned as a detective at the time, and I worked for undercover a few months; I was then assigned as a sergeant in the traffic division; promoted to lieutenant of the traffic division; subsequently promoted to captain of the traffic division. I was then assigned to a police training school. I attended the FBI school then.

Upon my return from the FBI school, I completed an examination for promotion to inspector of police and was able to obtain the No. 1 position and was promoted to inspector of police, and assigned to the police training school.

Mr. Hubert. Now, that examination and that promotion was civil service?

Mr. Curry. That's right.

Mr. Hubert. Under the laws of Texas?

Mr. Curry. That's right.

Mr. Hubert. And perhaps it would be better if you would just continue testifying—to tell us the various stages.

Mr. Curry. I was assigned to the various training schools, had charge of the police training, and also personnel investigation. I was then appointed assistant chief of police in charge, which assignment is actually the second in command of the police department—that was in October of 1953.

Mr. Hubert. Now, that is a non-civil-service position?

Mr. Curry. That's an appointive job.

Mr. Hubert. Who appointed you to that job?

Mr. Curry. Well, the chief appointed me, I'm sure, on the approval of the city manager.

Mr. Hubert. Who was the chief at that time?

Mr. Curry. Carl F. Hansson [spelling], H-a-n-s-s-o-n.

Mr. Hubert. All right; go on.

Mr. Curry. I served in that capacity until Chief Hansson resigned, and at that time I was appointed chief of police. I was appointed acting chief of police in December and when his name was removed from the rolls in January 1960, I was appointed chief of police.

Mr. Hubert. He resigned voluntarily?

Mr. Curry. Yes; he did.

Mr. Hubert. Was it because of old age?

Mr. Curry. I don't know exactly why he resigned. He left us to go as executive secretary of the Citizens Traffic Commission here in Dallas, and he served in that capacity for some year or so and resigned from that capacity, and then he went as chief of the Mesquite Police Department and remained there a year or two and at the present time is in an advisory capacity at Richardson, Tex.

Mr. Hubert. Well, you were second in command at the time you were appointed chief of police?

Mr. Curry. That's true.

Mr. Hubert. And you had been actually for some time?

Mr. Curry. About 7 years.

Mr. Hubert. Who was the city manager who appointed you?

Mr. Curry. Elgin Crull, I believe he was at the time I was appointed. He was when I was appointed chief of police, because I recall—I don't recall exactly who was city manager at the time I was appointed assistant chief. I believe Chuck Ford, I believe, was.

28 Mr. Hubert. Of course, as you said, the assistant chief of police and the chief of police, are non-civil service?

Mr. Curry. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Do you still maintain civil service status in the event of a reduction?

Mr. Curry. In a reduction?

Mr. Hubert. Yes.

Mr. Curry. In rank; you are supposed to return to the rank where you were when appointed.

Mr. Hubert. Now, you, of course, as chief of police, have under you a number of assistant and deputy chiefs of police and then captains of the various divisions and so forth. Who made those appointments?

Mr. Curry. They are under civil service except for the assistant chief and the deputy chiefs and I make those appointments.

Mr. Hubert. You made those appointments?

Mr. Curry. Yes. Now, I didn't make all the appointments, because some of them were in those positions when I was appointed chief. I appointed Batchelor as assistant chief of police and I appointed Fisher, who is in charge of radio patrol, as deputy chief of police, and I think the rest of them were in their positions when I was made chief and I left them there.

Mr. Hubert. You had the authority to move them, I take it, but you chose to leave them there?

Mr. Curry. That's right.

Mr. Hubert. All right. Now, everybody else was in his position by virtue of civil service?

Mr. Curry. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Now, I would like to direct your attention to the time when the Dallas Police Department first arrested Oswald, and, I assume, became responsible for him and for his security. I believe that it was that he was arrested at the Texas Theatre?

Mr. Curry. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. And almost immediately moved to the Dallas Police Department offices?

Mr. Curry. So I understand; yes.

Mr. Hubert. Can you tell us what you know about the matter from that point on, and it may be just as well if you will tell it in a narrative fashion. I will ask you some questions as we go along, or perhaps wait until the end to fill in. We will see how it works out. Briefly, what we want to know is what you know about the whole thing.

Mr. Curry. Well, on November 22, I was in the lead car of the Presidential caravan. With me were Secret Service Winston Lawson and Forrest Sorrels, and the sheriff of Dallas County, Bill Decker, and we were nearing the triple underpass in the western part of Dallas, and which is near Stemmons Expressway—it was necessary for us to move to Elm Street in order to get on the Stemmons Expressway to get the President's caravan down to the Trade Mart where they were going to have a luncheon.

I heard a sharp report. We were near the railroad yards at this time, and I didn't know—I didn't know exactly where this report came from, whether it was above us or where, but this was followed by two more reports, and at that time I looked in my rear view mirror and I saw some commotion in the President's caravan and realized that probably something was wrong, and it seemed to be speeding up, and about this time a motorcycle officer, I believe it was Officer Chaney rode up beside us and I asked if something happened back there and he said, "Yes," and I said, "Has somebody been shot?" And he said, "I think so."

So, I then ordered him to take us to Parkland Hospital which was the nearest hospital, so we took the President's caravan then to Parkland Hospital and they were—the President, the Vice President and the Governor—were taken into the hospital and I remained at the hospital for—oh—some hour or so.

At about 1:15 that day—this first incident occurred about 12:30 or so, and about 1:15 I was notified that one of our officers had been shot, and a few minutes later was told that he was dead on arrival at the hospital.

At that time we didn't know who shot him. I was just told it was in Oak29 Cliff. I was still at the hospital at this time and I was told by some of the Secret Service people, I don't recall who, to get my car ready and another car ready to take the President—we were informed that President Kennedy had expired—and we were asked to have two automobiles standing by to take President Johnson to Love Field.

Mr. Hubert. Let me stop you and ask you this: When you had the news of the death of Tippit, or the shooting of Tippit, did you associate that in any way with the President's assassination?

Mr. Curry. No; I didn't at the time.

Mr. Hubert. All right, sir; go on.

Mr. Curry. In a little while President Johnson came out, and some of his aides, and got into my car and some of his other people came and got into another vehicle driven by Inspector Putnam of the Dallas Police Department, and we were instructed to go to Love Field, to get there by the nearest route with the least amount of noise, but to go there as quickly as we could. So I drove to Love Field and the President got out of the car with his group and went aboard the Presidential plane.

Mr. Hubert. Do you have any idea about what time you left the hospital to go to Love Field?

Mr. Curry. No.

Mr. Hubert. Well, perhaps you can arrive at it this way; you know the time you arrived there?

Mr. Curry. It seemed we were there about 30 minutes at the hospital—30 minutes or so, and we probably got there a little after 12:30, so that would have been around a little after 1:15, I believe.

Mr. Hubert. It was a little after 1:15 that you started to move to Love Field?

Mr. Curry. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Now, did you know Jack Ruby prior to that time?

Mr. Curry. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. Hubert. You had never seen him?

Mr. Curry. If I had ever seen him, I didn't know it. I might have seen him but I didn't recognize him.

Mr. Hubert. Of course, now, you know who Jack Ruby is; you have seen him?

Mr. Curry. I have seen him in the courtroom.

Mr. Hubert. Can you tell us whether or not among any of the people that you saw at the hospital anywhere, whether Jack Ruby was at the hospital?

Mr. Curry. If he was, I didn't know it.

Mr. Hubert. That's what I'm asking—you didn't see the man that you now know to be Jack Ruby?

Mr. Curry. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. Hubert. Do you know a reporter from the Washington, D.C., newspaper who is called Seth Kantor?

Mr. Curry. I believe he used to be in Dallas.

Mr. Hubert. I believe he was, and moved on to Washington.

Mr. Curry. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Did you see him out there?

Mr. Curry. I don't recall who all I saw out there—I saw a number of people out there. If I saw him, I don't recall it. I very easily could have seen him out there.

Mr. Hubert. And it follows from what you said before, of course, that you did not see Kantor with Ruby?

Mr. Curry. No, sir.

Mr. Hubert. So, let's go back then to the point we left off, and that is to say—the arrival at Love Field.

Mr. Curry. Yes, sir; we arrived at Love Field with the President and his party and they got out of the car and got on the plane.

I was informed by someone a little later that Judge Sarah Hughes was coming out to swear in the President, to give him the oath of office, and we stood by and when she arrived I escorted her onto the plane and into the presence of the President and was there while she gave to him the oath of office. Immediately after he was given the oath of office, as I recall it, the President said, "Let's get out of here." And I left the plane with Judge Sarah Hughes and30 returned to my car and in the meantime while we were at Love Field, Mrs. Kennedy and some others came and they loaded the casket onto the plane and she went into the plane. After I got off the plane, I talked to Mrs. Cabell and to Mayor Cabell and I waited until the planes left Love Field, and then I went to the city hall.

Now, as best I recall, it was probably around 4 o'clock when I got to the city hall, and I started to my office on the third floor, and when I got off of the elevator there I could see that there was just pandemonium on the third floor. There was dozens and dozens of newsmen just crammed into the north end of the corridor. There were television cables running from down the halls, from the administrative office, and I went to my office and talked with some of my staff—I don't recall who all was in there at the time—about what was going on, and I was told by someone, I believe Chief Stevenson that they had a man named Oswald whom they believed to be the murderer of Officer Tippit, and they had been questioning him in Captain Fritz' office.

Mr. Hubert. Did they advise you at that time, or did they know to your knowledge that he was also a suspect in regard to the assassination of President Kennedy?

Mr. Curry. Someone mentioned that he was also a strong suspect in the assassination of the President.

Mr. Hubert. That was at that same time?

Mr. Curry. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. When you got back there?

Mr. Curry. After I returned from Love Field.

Mr. Hubert. Now, you say Captain Fritz was carrying on the interrogation?

Mr. Curry. Yes; that's his responsibility, to investigate murders, robberies, and rapes, and extortions and things of that kind.

Mr. Hubert. It's fair to say, then, that the interrogation of Oswald with respect to either the death of Tippit or of President Kennedy was in accordance with the normal procedures of the department?

Mr. Curry. That's correct.

Mr. Hubert. How long had Captain Fritz been in that position, sir?

Mr. Curry. A number of years—I don't recall exactly when he was appointed to his position with the homicide division—probably 15 years anyway.

I had received a call from the FBI or someone in the FBI, I don't recall whether it was Shanklin or who, and they were requesting that a representative of their Bureau be allowed to be present when Oswald was interviewed.

Mr. Hubert. Did you agree to that?

Mr. Curry. I called Fritz in his office and told him we had this request, and Fritz said, "Okay; we'll let them in."

At that time I understood there was a representative from Secret Service already in the room and the representative from the FBI went in—one or two FBI representatives.

It was some time before I ever went to the homicide office myself.

Mr. Hubert. Did you receive any message around that time or a little later relayed to you as it were, through FBI agents, that Mr. J. Edgar Hoover, the head of the FBI, wanted you to know of his concern about Oswald's security?

Mr. Curry. Specifically, I don't remember anyone coming to me and telling me that.

Mr. Hubert. Now, let's see—I think the last statement you made was that it was sometime before you actually went to Fritz' office yourself. Is there anything that happened of significance or that you want to put in the record with reference to what happened between the time you got there around a little after 4 and the time you did get in to see Oswald?

Mr. Curry. No, sir; I wasn't particularly interested in seeing him or interfering with the investigation in any way. I stayed up in the administrative offices most of the time. I had a number of calls from various people, I don't recall just who all I talked to. I conferred with some of my staff during that time and I was kept informed of the progress of the investigation.

Mr. Hubert. How were you kept informed?

Mr. Curry. Usually through Chief Stevenson.

Mr. Hubert. In other words, you would move from Captain Fritz' office——

31 Mr. Curry. Either by telephone or go down to the office and talk to him.

Mr. Hubert. All right, go ahead.

Mr. Curry. Well, nothing of significance that I can recall occurred. Later in the evening someone told me that they had enough evidence that he had been identified as the slayer of our police officer.

Captain Fritz thought he had better go ahead and file on him and I think it was about 7:30 on the day they did file on him, and I think he had been down—had been to the showup a time or two—there were some witnesses who had identified him, so I was told, as being the man who shot Tippit.

Mr. Hubert. Did you see Oswald then, or when was the first time you saw him?

Mr. Curry. I don't recall exactly the first time I saw him, but I believe it was in the evening—in the early evening. When I did see him I remember that he impressed me as being a sullen, arrogant individual, and he didn't seem particularly perturbed with the fact that he was being interrogated or that he was causing such a commotion—he was pretty cool.

Mr. Hubert. You didn't question him yourself, did you?

Mr. Curry. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. Hubert. So, he was filed upon about 7:30 with respect to Tippit?

Mr. Curry. Somewhere around in there—I don't know exactly when it was.

Mr. Hubert. All right, go ahead.

Mr. Curry. Then, after he was filed on for this offense, I believe it was Captain Fritz who told me that they were working now on the possibility that he was the same suspect or the assassin of the President, and they began to, when I say "they" I mean Captain Fritz, principally, told me of some of the evidence that was piling up against him. In fact, he told me that he worked in this Building and that that morning he had carried a package into the Building.

Mr. Hubert. This information was being relayed to you?

Mr. Curry. Relayed to me by Fritz—just summing up what they found out about him. He told me that, as I recall, he told me that Oswald had been in the Building on this day and that one of the Negro porters had seen him go to the sixth floor, I believe, at lunch time, and that after the shooting, some of our officers went into the Building and they saw Oswald at a lunch counter or in the recreation room and started to approach him or question him and they were told by Mr. Truly, who is the Building manager, that this was one of their employees, and I think the officer passed him on up and went on upstairs to try to determine where these shots came from.

In the meantime, I believe Inspector Sawyer was several blocks away from there, from that location, and when he heard what was happening, he immediately went to the location to take over all security and searching there.

Chief Lumpkin and some of his party went on to Love Field with me and they went back to the Texas School Book Depository. So, several minutes elapsed from the time of the shooting until anyone could have gotten—any officers could have gotten actually to the Building.

As soon as it was feasible or possible, they did seal off this Building and also that they had checked all of the employees of the Building and found out that there was one missing, and I think this is when they suspected him of being involved in the fatal shooting of the President, and from the description, I believe they began to tie the two suspects together—the suspect of the shooting of the officer, and all this was told to me by people of the homicide bureau.

Mr. Hubert. Well, when we last talked about Oswald, I think it was when he was being charged with respect to Tippit, and then I gather that the information you are giving us now is the background for charging him as the assassin of President Kennedy?

Mr. Curry. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. And you were aware of that too—you were still in the Building?

Mr. Curry. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Do you recall a meeting—it has sometimes been called a showup or a lineup—I don't know that that is accurate, but it took place in the assembly room.

Mr. Curry. And some of the members of the press were there, yes, sir.

32 Mr. Hubert. Well, can you tell us what that was about? About what time?

Mr. Curry. I don't recall exactly the time it was—it was in the evening, sometime after they had interrogated, I think, Oswald. I think he had been in the showup once or twice previous to this for witnesses to observe him, and there were so many newsmen in the halls that they were not all of them able to see or to get any pictures or any thing else in the north corridor of the third floor, and some of them asked me to—sometime during the evening—when they could see Oswald, how does he look, can we see him?

At this time Henry Wade, the district attorney, was up there and Alexander was up there.

Mr. Hubert. He is the assistant district attorney?

Mr. Curry. Yes; and something was said about—how about letting us see him or could we see him?

Mr. Hubert. That was said by Wade or Alexander or by the newsmen?

Mr. Curry. By the newsmen.

Mr. Hubert. In the presence of Wade and Alexander?

Mr. Curry. Yes; as I recall it, I asked Henry Wade, "Do you see anything wrong with it," and as I recall, he told me, "Not that I know of, I don't see anything wrong with it." And, so, we told them if they would go to the assembly room that we would let them see Oswald.

Mr. Hubert. Is the assembly room located on another floor?

Mr. Curry. Yes, in the basement; we were on the third floor.

Mr. Hubert. And the assembly room is in effect—it is a room, as I recall it, that might seat 50 or 75 people?

Mr. Curry. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. And it has a little stage with the usual showup apparatus?

Mr. Curry. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. That is to say, there is gauze in front of the prisoners, so that the audience can see them, but the prisoners can't look out. And there are markings on it as to height and their numbers?

Mr. Curry. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. That's the room we are talking about?

Mr. Curry. Yes, that's the room he was taken to. He was not put on the stage, he was just put in front of the stage for the showup.

Mr. Hubert. In other words, he was not put behind the gauze?

Mr. Curry. Not this time, I think he was on previous occasions.

Mr. Hubert. Yes; when there was a real lineup for identification?

Mr. Curry. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. But this was not an identification lineup?

Mr. Curry. No; it was the news media clamoring to see him, and they wanted to know when they could look at him or when they could observe him, and on the third floor when he was brought to and from the interrogation room, which was Captain Fritz' office, they had to go about 20 or 25 feet, and they almost mobbed him every time they would bring him through.

Mr. Hubert. You are saying they had to go about 20 or 25 feet to get to the elevator?

Mr. Curry. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. That is the inside elevator, not the public elevator?

Mr. Curry. That's right.

Mr. Hubert. It's the inside elevator——

Mr. Curry. The prisoners' elevator.

Mr. Hubert. That leads all of the police department down into the basement into the jail?

Mr. Curry. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. All right, sir; go ahead.

Mr. Curry. So, we warned them not to try to interfere with him or anything else and we would let them see him. We did take him down and let them briefly see him—this was just a very short time.

Mr. Hubert. Were you present then?

Mr. Curry. Yes; I was.

Mr. Hubert. Who else was present, among the police officers you recall?

Mr. Curry. I don't recall—I think Fritz was—I don't know that he was in33 the room, and there was a couple of detectives who brought the suspect in. Henry Wade and Alexander were in the vicinity—they were not right there with me, so when we brought him in, the news media started then to trying to talk to him and he was only there for a few seconds and we removed him.

Mr. Hubert. Did you see, during the time you were in the assembly room that you have just been speaking about, the man you now know as Jack Ruby in that room?

Mr. Curry. No, sir; I didn't. I understood he was there, but I didn't see him, and would not have known him had I seen him.

Mr. Hubert. Well, that's correct, but now that you do know him?

Mr. Curry. I didn't recognize him.

Mr. Hubert. You didn't recognize him?

Mr. Curry. No.

Mr. Hubert. Your present memory doesn't associate the man you now know as Jack Ruby with being in that room?

Mr. Curry. That's right.

Mr. Hubert. Now, can you tell us why Oswald was moved for the purpose of charging him in the case of Tippit, and subsequently in the case of the President?

Mr. Curry. I don't know in the case of Tippit. I wasn't there. I mean, I wasn't present when he was charged, but he was charged with the murder of the President—he was charged in the lobby of the identification bureau, which is on the fourth floor of the police department, and he was brought out of the jail into the identification bureau and the charge was read to him by Judge David Johnston.

Mr. Hubert. What I am trying to get at is what security measures were observed with reference to him during the time that he was moved through these crowds of people?

Mr. Curry. Officers surrounded him. We had officers in front and in the back and by the side of him as he was moving—usually two detectives, two or three uniformed officers, when he moved through the crowds.

Mr. Hubert. I understand you said that there was a huge crowd on the third floor?

Mr. Curry. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. And I would take it that there was a rather large crowd in the assembly room?

Mr. Curry. Yes; there were several—a good many there.

Mr. Hubert. Is it fair to say that other than on the third floor, when he was being moved and when he was in the assembly room, he was not exposed in any way?

Mr. Curry. No; he was not.

Mr. Hubert. That is to say, there were no persons around him but police then?

Mr. Curry. That's right.

Mr. Hubert. Now, when he was moved through the hall, however many times he was at the third floor—of course, you had this mob of newsmen and there were a group of newsmen in the assembly room?

Mr. Curry. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. What I am getting at—what security measures were taken, if you know, with respect to who was in that crowd of newsmen of the people in the assembly room?

Mr. Curry. I don't know, other than on the third floor. I know that there was some police reservists and a police sergeant who was screening people who came up on the third floor.

Mr. Hubert. Now, how would they screen them?

Mr. Curry. As they got off of the elevator, I would observe that they would check them, apparently asking for identification.

Mr. Hubert. The elevator would be the only way to get up there?

Mr. Curry. The stairway, they could get up the stairway. The officers were so located that had someone come up the stairway they would have seen them too.

Mr. Hubert. In other words, the officers checking the elevator could also check the staircase?

Mr. Curry. That's right.

34 Mr. Hubert. Do you know whether any instructions had been given to those officers?

Mr. Curry. I don't know of my knowledge, but I observed them checking the people who came in.

Mr. Hubert. Whose responsibility would it have been to post those officers for the purpose of checking there?

Mr. Curry. Usually the captain on duty in that building—that would have been Captain Talbert, I believe, but it could have been someone else. Had they observed the need for it, they could have issued orders to get someone else.

Mr. Hubert. Obviously, someone must have posted two men there?

Mr. Curry. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Would you say you have in the department any standard operative procedures to cover a situation like that?

Mr. Curry. Not exactly this type incident.

Mr. Hubert. So, in any case, you observed that that was a security check going on?

Mr. Curry. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Is the same thing approximately true about the group that was in the assembly room when Oswald was brought down?

Mr. Curry. Well, now, I don't know that they were all checked as they went into the assembly room.

Mr. Hubert. Did you give any instructions about the security of Oswald there?

Mr. Curry. No; I just told them to keep the newsmen—and I told the newsmen they would have to stay back inside the confines of the room and not approach the prisoner.

Mr. Hubert. Let me put it this way—generally speaking, did you give any specific instructions regarding the security of Oswald, during that period we are talking about?

Mr. Curry. No, not this period—no.

Mr. Hubert. Do you know what system of checking for identification was being used by the officers on the third floor guarding the elevator and staircase?

Mr. Curry. I don't know of my own knowledge. I could see them checking the people to see whether they were up to do police business or whether they were newsmen trying to cover the incident. We were carrying on the normal business we would conduct, and this would bring a great many people to the third floor, relatives of prisoners, complainants, various people that would come to the other bureaus.

Mr. Hubert. Normally, there would be no police checking those two elevators?

Mr. Curry. No, sir.

Mr. Hubert. So that, I suppose it is fair to state, isn't it, that the main function of that check was to keep curiosity seekers out of the way?

Mr. Curry. That's right—that's right.

Mr. Hubert. And to check also to see if anybody had any legitimate business there?

Mr. Curry. That's right.

Mr. Hubert. Well, I think we can just continue on then.

Mr. Curry. Well, after Oswald was arraigned, I went back to my office—I went home a little while after that and that was, I believe, Saturday night.

Mr. Hubert. No; that would be Friday night.

Mr. Curry. Yes; Friday night, yes; and Saturday morning I came down to the office and I don't remember any particular outstanding incident that occurred during the day. It was a rather routine investigation—there continued the investigation from the homicide division section on the murder of the President.

Mr. Hubert. Was the crowd of newspapermen still there?

Mr. Curry. Yes, sir; they stayed there.

Mr. Hubert. Were the security measures you have described still in force?

Mr. Curry. Yes, sir; they stayed.

Mr. Hubert. It was neither more nor less?

Mr. Curry. It was about the same. I had several conferences during the day with various staff members and I was kept informed of the progress of the35 investigation. Late that evening, the different members of the press, news media, began to ask me when we were going to transfer Oswald because he had been filed on, and I told them I didn't know, that this was something that would be left up to Captain Fritz because he was conducting the investigation and the interrogation, and usually he would be the one to determine when he was ready to transfer the prisoner.

Mr. Hubert. When a prisoner is formally charged, as Oswald had been, what is the normal procedure to transfer the prisoner to the State prison?

Mr. Curry. There are two ways it is done. Sometimes the bureau transfers the person to the sheriff's office, and sometimes the sheriff's office sends up and gets them.

Mr. Hubert. And either type is usual?

Mr. Curry. Either one is acceptable.

Mr. Hubert. Had Decker made any request to you to deliver what, in effect, was his prisoner?

Mr. Curry. Not at this time.

Mr. Hubert. So, on Saturday night, that would be the 23d, you were asked, I think, by the newsmen?

Mr. Curry. When we were going to transfer him and I told them I didn't know.

Mr. Hubert. All right; go on from there.

Mr. Curry. And some of them asked if "They are going to transfer him tonight?" And I said, "I don't think so." Then, I talked to Fritz about when he thought he would transfer the prisoner, and he didn't think it was a good idea to transfer him at night because of the fact you couldn't see, and if anybody tried to cause them any trouble, they needed to see who they were and where it was coming from and so forth, and he suggested that we wait until daylight, so this was normal procedure, I mean, for Fritz to determine when he is going to transfer his prisoners, so I told him, "Okay." I asked him, I said, "What time do you think you will be ready tomorrow?" And he didn't know exactly and I said, "Do you think about 10 o'clock," and he said, "I believe so," and then is when I went out and told the newspaper people, the news media that we were not going to transfer him that night and some of them asked, "When should we be back, when are you going to transfer him?" And I said, "I don't know," because I didn't know when we were going to transfer him. Some of them said, "When should we back?" I made the remark then, "I believe if you are back here by 10 o'clock you will be back in time to observe anything you care to observe."

Mr. Hubert. Can you tell us whether on Saturday night any plans had been made for the transfer?

Mr. Curry. Not on Saturday night, I don't believe.

Mr. Hubert. Then, you went home?

Mr. Curry. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Then, let's pick up with the 24th.

Mr. Curry. On Sunday morning, I came down to the office, and, as I recall, it was probably 8:30 or 8:45 when I got to the office, and as I parked my car in the basement of the city hall and started up to our office, I noticed that a large camera had been set up out in the hallway between the jail office and the end of the corridor immediately in front of the jail office, and it was in the way of traffic, and Lieutenant Wiggins came out and I told him—I told Lieutenant Wiggins, I said, "You are going to have to move this camera out of here," and then I told Wiggins, I said, "Now, if the news media come down here and want in, put them over behind the rail." There is a rail separating the ramp that comes down in the basement from the parking area. There were two cars in there, I believe a patrol wagon and a squad car and I told him to move those vehicles out and if the news media came down and wanted to observe from the basement, that they were to be placed back over in this area.

Mr. Hubert. Is it fair to state, then, that in your own mind, you had determined that the way to move him was through the basement area?

Mr. Curry. Yes. I believe about this—Chief Stevenson and Chief Batchelor approached me—I think they had been there earlier, and I told them I thought36 the best thing to do was to set up our security down there and bring Oswald down there and transfer him on to the county jail.

I went on up to the office and Chief Batchelor and Chief Stevenson, I think, remained in the basement a while and Captain Talbert was down there.

Mr. Hubert. Did you delegate to any specific person the security of Oswald?

Mr. Curry. No, sir; I could see that he was being taken care of by the captain on duty, Captain Talbert, and Lieutenant Wiggins was assisting in it, so I didn't see any need to particularly call some officer over there and say, "Look, you are in charge of this security in this basement." It was being taken care of, I could see.

Mr. Hubert. Well, for the record, will you tell us what you saw that satisfied you that it was being taken care of?

Mr. Curry. Officers were being stationed at the strategic points in the basement to screen people coming in, and they were moving out the vehicles as I asked them to, so I went on upstairs and I told Chief Batchelor and Chief Stevenson that we should clean out everything in the basement and screen everything that came back in.

Mr. Hubert. When you ordered everything to be "screened" did you give any specific instructions?

Mr. Curry. No; I didn't

Mr. Hubert. Or does that term have any significance in police work?

Mr. Curry. Well, it means to satisfy yourself that they were people who had a legitimate reason to be there when you screen them.

Mr. Hubert. In other words, within the organization of the police department, the word "screening" is understood so that you were satisfied that there would not be people there who were not supposed to be there?

Mr. Curry. Any unauthorized people.

Mr. Hubert. Just one more point on that—under the system, who would be considered as unauthorized persons?

Mr. Curry. I think I specifically stated that only newspaper reporters or police officers would be allowed in the basement.

Mr. Hubert. Only the news media?

Mr. Curry. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Television people—would be included, too?

Mr. Curry. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Was there any discussion of the route to be taken?

Mr. Curry. Not at that time.

Mr. Hubert. All right; let's go ahead.

Mr. Curry. Then, I went on upstairs and a little while later I went to Fritz' office and they were interrogating him—they—there were several people in there, some I recognized as FBI agents, some were Secret Service agents, some were Dallas detectives, and Captain Fritz was talking to Oswald at the time, I believe, and I stood around a few moments and when there was a lull in the interrogation, I asked Captain Fritz if he was about ready to transfer Oswald and he said, "Well, no; they were still talking to him," so I left the room.

Mr. Hubert. That was about what time?

Mr. Curry. As I recall, it was probably 10:30, but I didn't care when they transferred him at all. It didn't make any difference to me. The arrangements had been made to transfer him and then when it was brought to——

Mr. Hubert. What arrangements had been made?

Mr. Curry. That we would transfer him to the sheriff, but at that time we did not have any armored cars down there. We were just at that time, I believe it was—understood that we would just put him in the car and drive him down there.

Someone asked me if I had heard of the threats that had been made against him, and I had. They had called me at home about it, and I called Sheriff Decker, I think, from Fritz' office, and when Fritz said they were ready to transfer the man, and this is something after 11 o'clock—probably a little after 11, and Decker said, "Okay, bring him on," and at that time I said, "I thought you were coming after him."

Decker said, "Either way, I'll come after him or you can bring him to me," and I thought since we had so much involved here, we were the ones that were37 investigating the case and we had the officers set up downstairs to handle it, so I told Decker—I said, "Okay, we'll bring him to you."

Mr. Hubert. In other words, at first your security precaution in the basement was to take care of the situation of either your having to move him from the jail or Decker coming after him?

Mr. Curry. Or Decker coming after him; that's right. Then, I saw Chief Batchelor, and I believe, Chief Stevenson, and we discussed the threats that we had had.

Mr. Hubert. Now, that was, of course, after you had heard about the threats and after you had talked to Decker?

Mr. Curry. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. And I think you mentioned you talked to Decker a little after 11 o'clock?

Mr. Curry. Well, it was probably before that.

Mr. Hubert. I wanted to bring that to your attention because it seems to me it must have been earlier than that.

Mr. Curry. Yes; it was. Because we had to get the armored car in there after that. Anyway, after it was determined we would move him, Chief Batchelor, I believe, and Chief Stevenson and myself discussed this security and we decided it would be best to get an armored car down there in the event some one, some group tried to take our prisoner away from us, it would be better to have him in an armored car.

So. Chief Batchelor called the man, I don't recall his name now, that runs the armored motor service here in Dallas, and requested that we be furnished with an armored car, and I was told later that they had two sizes, an overland truck and a city truck and they would send them both over there when they could get the drivers and we could use whichever one we wanted.

Well, as I understand it, during this time the questioning of Oswald continued up in Captain Fritz' office, and I believe it was about a quarter to 11 or around 11 when we were told the armored cars were there and they backed them into the basement and they wouldn't go all the way down because of the height of the vehicle, and one of them was parked on the ramp and officers were placed on each side of it. In the meantime, I understand that the basement had been completely cleaned out of any unauthorized persons.

Mr. Hubert. Can you tell me why it was that the Commerce Street exit was chosen to put the armored car in and for the cars carrying Oswald to leave in, rather than the Main Street exit?

Mr. Curry. Because Commerce Street is one way east and all the traffic comes in on Main Street.

Mr. Hubert. Main Street is two-way traffic?

Mr. Curry. It is two-way traffic and the exit is one way east, so the vehicles were placed there.

Mr. Hubert. As a matter of geographical fact, except for the fact that you would have been going the wrong way, up the Main Street ramp and that you had two-way traffic on Main Street, the actual closest route would have been to go up the Main Street ramp, turn left up Main Street and go down?

Mr. Curry. Yes; it would. It would have been about three or four blocks closer, because when we came out of Commerce you had to go east to the second block and make a turn one block and make a turn back west.

Mr. Hubert. Chief, have you any comment to make as to why the longer route instead of the shorter route was taken?

Mr. Curry. Well, just because ordinarily we don't violate traffic rules and regulations in the transfer of prisoners and we thought this was the normal route that should be taken and that's the reason it was set up that way.

Mr. Hubert. The original decision, as I remember it, was to go through the Commerce Street exit and then turn left up to North Central?

Mr. Curry. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. And then turn left again and go to Elm and then go on down to the county jail?

Mr. Curry. When I went back up into the homicide office and told Fritz about our plans of transferring the prisoner, he was not particularly pleased with the idea of putting the prisoner in the armored car.

38 Mr. Hubert. Did he say why?

Mr. Curry. He said if someone tried to take our prisoner, he felt like we ought to be able to maneuver and he felt that this would be too awkward in in this heavy armored car and he preferred that the prisoner be transferred in a regular police car with detectives.

Mr. Hubert. Was a policeman to drive the armored car?

Mr. Curry. No; not the armored car.

Mr. Hubert. Is that a factor, too—I suppose—it wouldn't be a member of the police force under your control driving that car?

Mr. Curry. No; but he felt like—Fritz said if anyone tried to take our prisoner we should be in a position to be able to cut out of the caravan or to take off or do whatever was necessary to protect our prisoner.

So, I didn't argue with him about it—there was some merit to his plan, so I told him, "Well, okay, but we would still use the armored car as a decoy and let it go right on down just as we had planned and if anyone planned to try to take our prisoner away from us, they would be attacking an empty armored car," and that his vehicle with the prisoner in it would have cut out of the caravan and proceeded immediately to the county jail and the prisoner would be taken into the county jail, and the way we figured it, he would be there before the other caravan got there.

Well, he asked me if everything was ready and I said, "Yes, as far as I know, everything is ready to go," and this was a little after 11 o'clock and I said, "Well, I'll go on down to the basement," and was en route to the basement when I was called to the telephone and Mayor Cabell was on the telephone wanting to know something about the case, how we were progressing, what was going on, and while I was talking to him they made this transfer and Oswald was shot in the basement, and he was rushed to Parkland Hospital and I was notified that he had been shot in the basement.

Mr. Hubert. Did you know about his being shot before he moved to the hospital in the ambulance?

Mr. Curry. Yes, they called me from the jail office and said he had been shot and an ambulance had been ordered.

Mr. Hubert. Now, after the shooting, what action did you take—that is, the shooting of Oswald?

Mr. Curry. Well, I don't recall any particular action I took. I was told the man who shot him was in custody and was up in the jail. I think I notified the mayor that the man had been shot while I was still on the telephone with him and then I waited up in my office for word from Parkland Hospital, and about 1:30, or I believe about 1:30, we were informed that he had expired, and during this time I had been informed that the man who shot him was a nightclub operator named Jack Ruby, and that he was in custody up in the jail.

After I was informed that Oswald had died, I made an announcement to news media that he had expired and that we had the man who shot him in custody and as I recall, that's about the extent of my activity on that day.

Mr. Hubert. Do you remember whether on Sunday, November 24, it came to your attention that Ruby had stated that he entered the jail through the Main Street ramp?

Mr. Curry. I heard that, but I don't know who told it to me. I just heard a rumor that he had come in through the Main Street ramp. I understood that he told some more people that up in the jail.

After this happened, I immediately set up an investigative team to try to find out what happened.

Mr. Hubert. Now, when you say "immediately," you mean on the 24th?

Mr. Curry. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. And who was that?

Mr. Curry. Inspector Sawyer, Capt. O. A. Jones.

Mr. Hubert. What were your instructions to them?

Mr. Curry. To interrogate everyone that had anything to do with this and find out what they knew about it, what had happened and how and why and how it occurred.

Mr. Hubert. Is it fair to state that your instructions were then to find out exactly the truth?

39 Mr. Curry. Yes; absolutely.

Mr. Hubert. Now, you did receive a report from them ultimately?

Mr. Curry. Yes, I did.

Mr. Hubert. And I take it, of course, that you studied it?

Mr. Curry. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. As I remember the report, it made certain specific findings as to how Ruby entered and so forth?

Mr. Curry. Yes, according to the report he did come down the Main Street ramp.

Mr. Hubert. From your study of the report and all the statements that you got, are you satisfied with the conclusions reached in the report?

Mr. Curry. I believe this is the way he came in. I don't believe the officer at the top of the ramp where he came in, I don't believe that he knew that he went by, but I do state this, that I think the proper security was set up, and that had each officer carried out his assignment, I believe the transfer would have been made safely, and while I, as head of the department, have to accept responsibility for the security, I can say this, that the proper security was set up.

It was a failure of one man to carry out his assignment properly that permitted this man, apparently, to come into the basement of the city hall.

Mr. Hubert. And that man you mean is Roy Vaughn?

Mr. Curry. Vaughn—Officer Vaughn, the officer assigned to the Main Street ramp.

Mr. Hubert. Was there any kind of influence of any sort whatsoever or suggestions exercised upon you or made to you concerning the transfer of Oswald by either Mayor Cabell or City Manager Crull?

Mr. Curry. No, sir; they left it up to me.

Mr. Hubert. Chief, as you know, there has been some suggestion that a desire to satisfy the press dictated the time of the movement and the route. I think you ought to have an opportunity at this time to recall your own observations as to what influence, if any, considerations of pleasing the press entered into any of these plans?

Mr. Curry. Well, I would only say this, that we were trying in the police department to let the press have an opportunity to observe the proceedings as they were. This is an event that had not been—the like of the event had not been seen or heard, I think, in this century.

I didn't have any particular ones to come to me and insist that this be done in this manner. I saw no particular harm in allowing the media to observe the prisoner, and with no laws against it, and no policies that had ever been set up stating that the news media would not be allowed to see a prisoner.

There was no way for us to take the prisoner from the homicide office to the jail and back without the news media seeing him. I was besieged actually by the press to permit them to see Oswald. They made such remarks as, "The public has a right to see, to know," I didn't want them to think that we were mistreating Oswald; that we were carrying on this investigation in a normal manner, and that this case was handled as probably any other case would have been handled, although this had more national appeal, you might say, and had some curiosity to it, than some of the other cases we have handled.

But certainly the fact that the news media was permitted to see him and to take pictures of him was not anything unusual. This has always been done, but not to this extent because we didn't have this much press present.

Mr. Hubert. As I understand what you are saying, it is that had it not been for the fact that the victim was Oswald, if it was Oswald, and it was the President involved, this would have been quite normal procedure, that is to say, the press would have been allowed to see him, you would have told them when he was going to be moved?

Mr. Curry. That's right.

Mr. Hubert. And allowed them to take pictures?

Mr. Curry. That's right.

Mr. Hubert. Was any suggestion made to you by anybody that it would be best to disregard those considerations with respect to the press and use another route in making the transfer at another time?

40 Mr. Curry. No, sir; not that I recall. Fritz and I, I think, discussed this briefly, the possibility of getting that prisoner out of the city hall during the night hours and by another route and slipping him to the jail, but actually Fritz was not too much in favor of this and I more or less left this up to Fritz as to when and how this transfer would be made, because he has in the past transferred many of his prisoners to the county jail and I felt that since it was his responsibility, the prisoner was, to let him decide when and how he wanted to transfer this prisoner.

Mr. Hubert. Well, you didn't, in any case, give him instructions not to transfer the prisoner at a time when he could not be observed by the press?

Mr. Curry. No, sir; that's right.

Mr. Hubert. Is it fair to state that had he done so, it would have been satisfactory to you?

Mr. Curry. I would not have complained about it.

Mr. Hubert. Do you know whether Fritz' decision not to move him prior to the time that had been announced to the press was motivated by considerations of the press?

Mr. Curry. I don't know whether it was or not. I think this—that he didn't know how long he would be interrogating. I don't believe Fritz wanted to move him at night. I think he wanted to move him in the daytime so that he could see anyone that might be trying to cause him any trouble.

Mr. Hubert. Your thought is that, therefore, Fritz' decision not to move him at night was dictated by considerations of security?

Mr. Curry. I believe so; yes.

Mr. Hubert. Chief, I believe that I ought to offer you the opportunity to state for the record here as an overall proposition what you consider to be the cause of what was obviously a security breakdown?

Mr. Curry. I think the cause of the breakdown was the fact that Officer Vaughn left his post to assist this Lieutenant Pierce, and I believe Sergeant Dean, and I don't know who else was in the car, as they left the basement of the city hall going the wrong way on the ramp, and Officer Vaughn stepped across the sidewalk which he had been instructed, so I am told, to guard that ramp—to let only police officers or bona fide news media enter there. He momentarily stepped away from his assignment and while he was away from this assignment, our investigation shows that Jack Ruby went behind him and entered the ramp and went to the bottom of the ramp and stood behind some detectives and news media.

Mr. Hubert. Concerning the security at the top of the Main Street ramp where Vaughn was, what observations have you to make about that means of entry being guarded by one man only instead of, say, more?

Mr. Curry. Well, actually, this seemed to be the least risk in our security plan. All of the crowd and vehicles and everything was over on Commerce Street and there was very little over on Main Street, actually very little activity at all. It was only about a 12-foot ramp there that he had to guard.

Mr. Hubert. And he was standing right in the middle of it?

Mr. Curry. Had he stayed on his assignment, I don't see how Ruby could have gotten in.

Mr. Hubert. Of course, when the Pierce car came up, he obviously had to move away, but your thought is he moved too far away from his assignment?

Mr. Curry. He moved too far away from his assignment. He apparently was assisting this vehicle to get across the sidewalk, I think it was 10 or 12 feet wide, and into the street. Actually, he should have just stepped to one side and let the vehicle come by.

Now, this officer was put on a polygraph to determine whether or not he knew that Ruby went by him and according to the test, the results of the test, he did not realize that Ruby went by him.

Mr. Hubert. Chief, in addition to your testimony, I have shown you two documents which I think you have read, and I am marking for identification as follows, to-wit: The first one is a report of an interview of you by FBI Agent Vincent Drain on November 25, the document consisting of two pages, and I am marking on the first page "Dallas, Tex., April 15, 1964, Exhibit 5313, deposition41 of Chief J. E. Curry," and I am signing my name on that, and on the second page I am placing my initials.

With respect to the second document, it seems to be a copy of an interview of you made by FBI Agent Leo Robertson on December 10, 1963, and I am marking on the margin of the first page, as follows: "Dallas, Tex., April 15, 1964, Exhibit 5314, deposition of Chief J. E. Curry," and I am signing my name at the bottom of that page, and since the document has a second page, I am placing my initials at the bottom of the second page.

Now, I am going to ask you if you would mind signing your name where my name appears and your initials where my initials are, so that the record will show we both are talking about the same document?

Mr. Curry. Okay.

(Signed document as requested by Counsel Hubert.)

Mr. Hubert. Then I am going to ask you whether you have any comments to make about those two documents? Would you initial the second page, too?

Mr. Curry. Yes; I will.

(Witness Curry initialed instruments as requested by Counsel Hubert.)

Mr. Hubert. Now, Chief, have you had an opportunity to read both of those documents?

Mr. Curry. Yes; I looked them over.

Mr. Hubert. Do they represent the truth so far as you know of the interviews that they purport to cover?

Now, if you have any comments to make or deletions or modifications or changes, or if you find that those documents are incorrect, I would like for you to say so, because what we will have to do is to get into the record what is correct and not what is not correct.

Mr. Curry. [Examining instruments as referred to.] Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Are they correct, sir? Do you have any comments or deletions?

Mr. Curry. No; I don't have any comments. As far as I know—as far as I can recall, this is about what happened.

Mr. Hubert. Now, have you ever been interviewed by any member of the Commission's staff prior to this time?

Mr. Curry. No, sir; I had a little conversation with you over in my office.

Mr. Hubert. That was about 2 weeks ago when I was present in Dallas?

Mr. Curry. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Was there anything that occurred during that conversation that has not been covered here?

Mr. Curry. Not to my knowledge.

Mr. Hubert. Now, finally, is there anything at all you would like to make a matter of record concerning this whole thing? You are at liberty to say anything you want to say.

Mr. Curry. No; the only thing I would like to say is that I deeply regret the incidents that occurred and I feel like we did everything that could be expected of us as a police department to set up the security of the President and to cooperate with all agencies that had a responsibility in this matter, that we certainly would have liked for Oswald to have remained alive and faced trial.

According to the information that was given to me by the homicide bureau, we had developed a very good case on him and would have been able to, I'm sure, would have been able to convict him in a court of law.

Jack Ruby—I do not know, I did not know. It has been intimated that a great many of the Dallas police officers did know him, but from what I've been able to find out, there were some police officers who knew him, but most of them knew him because of the fact they had conducted police business with him at his place of business. There were a few, perhaps, that knew him and had gone to his place of business for social activities, but it was certainly not—he is not known by the majority of the police department.

Mr. Hubert. Chief, perhaps you would like to comment on two things—one, is that, as you know, there has been some talk or rumor, of course, that the police department cooperated, or some members of it, with Ruby for an opportunity for Ruby to shoot Oswald.

Have you looked into that, and if you have, would you give us your observations about it?

42 Mr. Curry. My instructions to the investigating officers were to go into every facet of this incident and to uncover any information that might indicate that any police officer cooperated in any way with letting Ruby get in a position to where he could have an opportunity to shoot Oswald.

Mr. Hubert. Did you find any evidence that would indicate anything?

Mr. Curry. No evidence whatsoever were we able to find.

Mr. Hubert. You were looking for such?

Mr. Curry. Yes; we certainly were.

Mr. Hubert. Chief, what was your intention had you found such evidence?

Mr. Curry. Proper action would have been taken.

Mr. Hubert. And by that you mean what?

Mr. Curry. The officer, if criminal negligence had been established, he would have been filed on by us.

Mr. Hubert. Now, there has been also the rumor that while the police did not actively cooperate, that they saw Jack Ruby there, didn't pay much attention to him, were really appalled when he did what he did, and then after that, engaged in a cover-up activity to preserve the reputation of the police department. Can you tell us whether your investigative efforts were directed toward uncovering any evidence which might throw light on that matter?

Mr. Curry. This investigation which was conducted was a completely impartial investigation.

We in the police department for a number of years have felt like if there is anything wrong in our department, we want to know it, and if actions of the officers are improper, an examination of our records through the years will show that we have taken whatever action was indicated, whether this be filing on a man for law violations or for improper conduct or whatever it might be. The seriousness of the offense is certainly not covered up and through the years we have a reputation for a high standard of conduct and the integrity of the department has not been questioned.

Mr. Hubert. You are satisfied that from all you know that there has been no effort to cover up?

Mr. Curry. No, sir; not to my knowledge, and had there been and it had come to my knowledge, I certainly would have done something about it.

Mr. Hubert. You are satisfied that the evidence shows that really Ruby came through one man?

Mr. Curry. That's right.

Mr. Hubert. And that was Vaughn?

Mr. Curry. That's right.

Mr. Hubert. Have you anything else to say, chief?

Mr. Curry. No, sir; I believe not.

Mr. Hubert. Well, sir, on behalf of the Commission and myself personally, I want to thank you very much for coming here and being frank and contributing, I think, a great deal of the permanent record in this matter.

Mr. Curry. Thank you, sir, if there is anything that I might know that I haven't brought out, I will be happy to. The only thing I can say is that our security broke down at one place. I can't deny that, and I don't think it intentional on the part of the police department to have this thing occur.

Mr. Hubert. I think that's covered. I wanted to ask you those questions and I think they are going to be asked and we are going to have an answer to them now and you are the man to do it. Thank you very much, chief.

Mr. Curry. All right. Thank you.

TESTIMONY OF SHERIFF J. E. (BILL) DECKER

The testimony of Sheriff J. E. (Bill) Decker was taken at 10:44 a.m., on April 16, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

43

Mr. Hubert. This is the deposition of J. E. (Bill) Decker.

Mr. Decker, my name is Leon Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel of the President's Commission under the provisions of Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, the joint resolution of Congress 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the Commission in conformity with the Executive order and the joint resolution. I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you, Sheriff Decker. I state to you now that the general nature of the inquiry of the Commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and to report upon facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald.

In particular as to you, Sheriff Decker, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you may know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry, including the security of Oswald, and the method and so forth by which he was killed.

I think, Sheriff Decker, that you have appeared here today by virtue of a letter written to you by Mr. J. Lee Rankin?

Mr. Decker. Yes; I think that's correct.

Mr. Hubert. Who is the General Counsel of the staff of the President's Commission?

Mr. Decker. I know there was a letter—anyway, I am here due to that reason.

Mr. Hubert. I had the impression you had a letter, but let me say this, that in any event, you are appearing here by virtue of a request made to appear here?

Mr. Decker. I was notified by the U.S. Secret Service to appear here and I presume that was a summons.

Mr. Hubert. Then, that would be because we did not wish to go through the formalities here?

Mr. Decker. That's right.

Mr. Hubert. In that case, however, I must state to you that under the rules and regulations of the Commission, every witness is entitled to a 3-day written notice before appearing.

Mr. Decker. I understand.

Mr. Hubert. But the Commission does provide that the witness may waive that 3 days' notice and I now ask you if you are willing to waive it and testify now?

Mr. Decker. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Will you stand up, please, and I will administer the oath? Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. Decker. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Will you state your name?

Mr. Decker. Bill Decker.

Mr. Hubert. Your age?

Mr. Decker. Sir, 66.

Mr. Hubert. And your residence?

Mr. Decker. 6302 Palo Pinto.

Mr. Hubert. What is your occupation?

Mr. Decker. I am sheriff of Dallas County.

Mr. Hubert. How long have you been sheriff?

Mr. Decker. Since January 1, 1949.

Mr. Hubert. Well, you have been reelected a number of times?

Mr. Decker. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. How many times?

Mr. Decker. I am serving my 16 years—I had two of those—one of those terms for a 4-year term, but we caught 2 years prior to that—that makes 4 from 16, leaves 12, 3 and 1 is 4 terms and I am coming for my fifth now.

Mr. Hubert. What was your occupation prior to the time that you became sheriff?

Mr. Decker. I was chief deputy sheriff for Dallas County 14 years prior to that. Prior to that I was chief deputy constable since 1924, prior to that I44 was in the courthouse as a court clerk and prior to that I was elevator operator in the courthouse. Now, that's it—that's my life.

Mr. Hubert. You started really at the bottom you might say, and went up?

Mr. Decker. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. You are married, of course?

Mr. Decker. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. You have a family?

Mr. Decker. I have one adopted son.

Mr. Hubert. Now, I—as I understand it, it is your responsibility to operate the State or county jail for those prisoners who are either serving terms that may be served there, or who are awaiting a trial in Dallas County and do not make bond, is that correct, sir?

Mr. Decker. That is correct. I am keeper of the county security building, of the county jail, which maintains the prisoners.

Mr. Hubert. That is located where?

Mr. Decker. 505 Main Street, the corner of Main and Houston, and it extends to the corner of Elm and Houston in the rear.

Mr. Hubert. Now, when prisoners are put in your custody or you take them into your custody who are awaiting trial, where are they placed, in cell blocks or something of that sort?

Mr. Decker. Oh, yes; we have a jail there with a capacity of 750 prisoners.

Mr. Hubert. Do you have what might be called maximum security there?

Mr. Decker. Yes; I do—there are many maximums—I have 450 maximum-security cells that's the latest that can be built. The others are built in the old jail which was built in 1913. Of course, my steel isn't so good in that old jail.

Mr. Hubert. By maximum security, you mean, of course, maximum security from the standpoint that the prisoner can't get out?

Mr. Decker. It is tool proof steel, one, and two, it is the modern locks. The man who maintains it—the opening and closing of the doors to it is in a cell block where the prisoners could not get to him unless he did as a couple of my boys did the other day, I'm sorry to say. You don't need to put that in there. They are no longer with me. They opened the door when they had no business to and they lost their jobs and I lost five prisoners.

Mr. Hubert. Does maximum security as it operates with you include considerations of security to the prisoner himself?

Mr. Decker. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Do you consider it to be your function, not merely to secure the prisoner so that he may be brought to justice or acquitted, but also so that his personal security will be maintained and he will not be injured, either by other prisoners or by outsiders?

Mr. Decker. Well, I even go further than that.

Mr. Hubert. Well, will you tell us about that?

Mr. Decker. A prisoner that is delivered to me—when the crime is committed, he is then delivered to me and when he is delivered to me, from then on I am his keeper. I must furnish his food, his clothing, get his medication and all the necessities of life required. I must protect him from a violent prisoner and I also must protect him from a citizen who would desire to do harm to him.

Mr. Hubert. Do you consider that your physical set up, and by that I mean, bricks and cement and steel as well as personnel is adequate to accomplish the purposes that you have described as maximum security?

Mr. Decker. We feel that our men are qualified from the training that is given to them, one; that the jail has passed Federal jail inspection on many occasions; and we feel that our jail is so constructed that the prisoner is protected.

Mr. Hubert. Now, of course, you are aware that a man by the name of Lee Harvey Oswald was in the custody of the Dallas police?

Mr. Decker. Yes; I had some officers present when he was arrested.

Mr. Hubert. From the sheriff's office—sheriff's officers were present?

Mr. Decker. Yes; sheriff's officers were present in Oak Cliff at the time. They responded to the assassination of the killing of Tippit, the same as others. You see, I was at the scene of the assassination of the President.

45 Mr. Hubert. Yes.

Mr. Decker. When my officers were dispatched there, I also told some other agencies to send their men over there.

Mr. Hubert. Now, what is the custom with respect to prisoners who are captured or taken into custody by the city police when there is no warrant of arrest?

Mr. Decker. Most prisoners taken in custody by the city police are arrested within the corporate limits of the city of Dallas and they in turn are moved to the city jail, which is located at the corner of Main and Harwood, or better still, in the 2000 block of Main Street, and there confined until their period of investigation is completed.

Mr. Hubert. How long is that?

Mr. Decker. Well, now, that's a problem I couldn't—there would be no way to answer that—how long does it take to make some investigation?

Mr. Hubert. What I had in mind was whether there was any rule, regulation, or law?

Mr. Decker. No; someone said once you couldn't hold them over 24 or 36 hours, but where it is, I don't know. The city ordinance under which most municipalities work is—they have a right to arrest and hold for investigation until they could determine if a crime has been committed. That leaves it pretty blank.

Mr. Hubert. All right. Now, let's assume that a man has been formally charged and that there has been a capias or warrant——

Mr. Decker. It's a warrant in this case.

Mr. Hubert. Of arrest, which authorizes you to arrest the particular prisoner?

Mr. Decker. I or one of the constables.

Mr. Hubert. What is your custom—are there any rules or regulations or laws?

Mr. Decker. No; there's no rules or regulations—only this—when a warrant is issued—when a complaint is filed with my district attorney or the magistrate, which is the justice of the peace, the warrant is issued and delivered to the agency. If it is a felony and in the justice court, it goes to the constable, which this offense we are speaking about was a felony and should have gone to David Johnston, justice of the peace, precinct 2, and the warrants were delivered to the city police.

Mr. Hubert. Now, you are talking about the charge with respect to Tippit, are you, or the death of the President, or both?

Mr. Decker. Well, I rather think it was both.

Mr. Hubert. The warrants then were not put into your possession at all?

Mr. Decker. No, sir; not at that time.

Mr. Hubert. And that is in accordance with the custom, too?

Mr. Decker. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. What would normally happen in circumstances such as we are dealing with here, where warrants were issued about 7 o'clock in one case, as to Tippit, and a little later about 11 o'clock on the 22d of November, as to the death of the President, what would be the normal situation as to your getting control and custody and your becoming the keeper of these prisoners?

Mr. Decker. The whole thing would be that if we, if those warrants had come through the regular channels to us, we would have contacted—I imagine we would have contacted Captain Fritz because it was a homicide and that is in his division, and asked him about the prisoner and discussed with him if he was ready for transfer—if he was going to transfer or did he want us to transfer. That would have been the normal procedure with us.

Mr. Hubert. In other words, it is normal to have them transfer the prisoner to you, rather than for you to go and get them, or both?

Mr. Decker. No; it is normal but it is not too much—they transfer maybe one-tenth of maybe 1 percent, but as hot a piece of merchandise as this prisoner was, chances are Captain Fritz and his men would have attempted to bring him from the city hall to the courthouse.

Mr. Hubert. In other words, except in rare instances, meaning a situation of this sort, you send your men to the city jail to get them?

46 Mr. Decker. Day in and day out. We have a paddy wagon for that purpose and a driver for the purpose and uniforms and insignias and all on it.

Mr. Hubert. Now, when did you make any efforts to take custody of Oswald?

Mr. Decker. I can't tell you that as to when—the homicide occurred and the boy was taken in custody in the afternoon and that was on a Friday—I'm not going to tell you for certain because there was so much and on Friday afternoon we were taking statements in my office—you know—this thing happened, occurred just across the street from my office and we moved all the witnesses when we were on the ground there at the scene, all the witnesses we could locate—I was working there and I had Inspector Sawyer, who is there with me, and also Heitman of the FBI and my assistant chief deputy, and every witness, just as we picked up a witness that had any information at all, we sent him directly across the street to my office and reduced his statement to writing. Then, I talked to Fritz after he arrived.

We had by then located the gun and the ammunition, my officers had located it in the building, and was awaiting the arrival of the scene searchers and also the arrival of my scene searchers and Fritz arrived and then I talked to Fritz and then we went across the street and he phoned and that's when I learned Oswald had been formerly employed there at that building.

And, Fritz went to the city—now, here's something I'm uncertain about—whether I talked to him that afternoon or the next day about this removal, I cannot tell you because there was so much happening and so much press in our hair, I couldn't say, but I did discuss with him and advise with that I wished to be notified when he started to move this boy, so that I would have my security in shape to receive him when he arrived there.

Mr. Hubert. You think that was no later than Saturday, the 23d?

Mr. Decker. Oh, no; it wasn't. I don't think it was any later than that—no.

Mr. Hubert. In other words, as I understood you, you couldn't tell whether it was on Friday or Saturday, but it could not have been Sunday?

Mr. Decker. No; it wasn't Sunday. I remember there were different conversations on Sunday, different conversations on Saturday and different conversations on Saturday night.

Mr. Hubert. Well, now, perhaps if you can, you can tell us about these various conversations, if you remember them—who they were with and about what time?

Mr. Decker. Well, on Saturday, the homicide, I believe, if I'm correct—now, the date of the homicide of Oswald was what?

Mr. Hubert. It was Sunday the 24th.

Mr. Decker. The 24th—Sunday. Friday, after we had completed our investigation and gotten our files together to some extent, we then closed shop, shall we say, and went back into our routine work, and on Saturday arrival at our office we then again, I'm reasonably sure that was the day, we talked about moving Oswald but I just don't remember. That's one of those things you just don't remember the date.

Mr. Hubert. But you talked to Fritz?

Mr. Decker. That's when I talked to Fritz.

Mr. Hubert. What did Fritz tell you, do you know?

Mr. Decker. He said he would notify me when he was ready to move.

Mr. Hubert. He wasn't ready at that time?

Mr. Decker. He wasn't ready at that time, witnesses were being brought in, he was still interviewing witnesses. Now, then, later that afternoon the rumor was out that they were going to bring him down—of course, we had rumors, rumors, rumors all the day, because we had worldwide press and they were in the city hall, you couldn't get in the city hall for them and they were running back and forth down to our pressroom, and this word was here that they were coming, so late that afternoon, on Saturday, Jim Kerr was the first man that brought me the date of the 10 o'clock transfer Sunday morning. Jim Kerr is associated with channel 5, and there were several of the pressmen in my office and members of my staff and we were discussing it and later in the evening, later about 9 o'clock it was getting on to be, and he notified us they were going to move in and I think I then confirmed that with someone in the47 city and they said yes—the next morning at 10 o'clock and then I went to my home.

Mr. Hubert. Did they say "Next morning at 10," or not before 10?

Mr. Decker. They said "around 10 o'clock."

Mr. Hubert. You got that, though, from newsmen, you think?

Mr. Decker. Jim Kerr is the man that gave me the information.

Mr. Hubert. You didn't talk to Fritz or Curry about that?

Mr. Decker. No; but I checked it up at the city with somebody there, and I don't know who it was now.

Mr. Hubert. You, yourself, don't know who it was?

Mr. Decker. I checked it on the telephone.

Mr. Hubert. But you don't remember who you talked to?

Mr. Decker. No; I don't remember who I talked to.

Mr. Hubert. And it was confirmed that he would not be moved that night?

Mr. Decker. It was confirmed that he wouldn't be moved that night and that's all there was to it.

Mr. Hubert. But you say your normal operations went on and I assume you went to your home?

Mr. Decker. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. What time did you get to your office on Sunday, the 24th of November?

Mr. Decker. It was before 10—around 10 o'clock—wait a minute, let me see if I can refresh my memory just a little bit here [examining records in his possession]. I am considering that time of when I was advised by the city that transfer might be made the first time, if you care to incorporate this in there—the first time was 3:30 p.m. Saturday. At that time it was not at 10 o'clock. I have this note—however, I arrived at my office early Sunday morning to recheck all security measures that had been provided for the transfer of Oswald, so what would be early for me, sir, I am a man that doesn't get down to the office until 9 o'clock, and so if I arrived at 9 o'clock, that would be early arrival for me, so you can place it near that period.

Mr. Hubert. Mr. Decker, I would like for you to carry on from there in narrative form as to just all of the events that happened as they came to your knowledge.

Mr. Decker. You mean on that morning, on Sunday morning?

Mr. Hubert. Yes, sir.

Mr. Decker. For additional security, I placed all members of the press—you see, I forgot to give you this a moment ago—on Saturday afternoon and Saturday night when they learned that they were going to transfer Oswald down there, the world's press moved from the 2000 block on Main to the 500 block on Main. They were laying on my floor, they were laying on the sidewalks——

Mr. Hubert. You mean that was Saturday night?

Mr. Decker. That was Saturday night, waiting for the Sunday morning transfer. They just started moving out of the city hall and moved down there—suddenly they were all over the streets, the sidewalks, the floors, we had cameras running out our ears.

Mr. Hubert. Television too?

Mr. Decker. Yes; everything—live television moved in, and some remained at the city, you see, and they set up down there a press—back and forth—so, I heard that my halls were full and my carport was full, so I moved them all out. I told them to come in the building, bring their cameras with them, that they were going to utilize, and the remainder not operate unless they were on the street—into a room—you will have to see my building to realize it—it's where you walk in the front, you see, the building is on Main and you come in the rear from the carport. There is a room that runs down about 45 or 40 feet, which is just an open hall space and a room where people stand who are attempting to get information out of the jail or visit someone in the jail, and I moved them into that and closed the doors on them.

Mr. Hubert. In other words, you cleared them from where?

Mr. Decker. I cleared them from the carport, where the man would be brought in, and put them behind locked doors—I'm talking about steel doors, now.

48 Mr. Hubert. So, there was no news press or anybody else at the spot where the prisoner would be brought?

Mr. Decker. Well, there may have been some on the street—I'm not so sure of that—but what I mean, I cleared the port and kept them in this room where they could only see him as he came by one door and by the second door, and they were away from him a distance then. He was to be in the carport and they were 20 or 25 feet back in the building.

Mr. Hubert. You say you had them under lock and key, but they could see out—could they see through windows?

Mr. Decker. No; bars, they were barred doors.

Mr. Hubert. Oh, I see.

Mr. Decker. They were barred doors.

Mr. Hubert. And you put all the press people out there?

Mr. Decker. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Did you check to see whether they were press people or not?

Mr. Decker. All in all—I was under the impression that they were—that the majority of them were press people. I don't think there was anybody in that room that wasn't.

Mr. Hubert. I mean, did you have any system of checking?

Mr. Decker. No; I didn't personally check and search each one of them because they had so darn much equipment—everybody had equipment—I don't care who they were, and I had my officers mix and mingle with them and knew most of them. You see, we got pretty well acquainted with that press for 2 or 3 days there because they were continually in our hair, you see.

Mr. Hubert. All right, sir; go ahead.

Mr. Decker. At the outside drive, or at the entrance to my carport—I moved a couple of my men—four or five of my special men there to be sure that it was clear when the man did arrive. I had been notified by Curry that maybe they would bring him down in an armored car and I had some other rumors—they would be bringing him in a car, and about that time on those live TV cameras in that room, the flash came that shots had been fired, that there was a riot on in the basement of the city hall, and if you will pardon my French and you don't need to put this in here, young lady, "We caught lightening in the jug in that room," sir. There is no question. They tried to crawl the walls, they tried to tear down those barred doors, they tried to do everything to get out of there and it looked like I would never get them out of the damn room.

Mr. Hubert. You mean the ones you had locked up?

Mr. Decker. The press—they were locked up and couldn't get out of there with all of their equipment, so as I say, "We caught lightening in the jug." There wasn't any question. Finally, I got the doors open and they tore out on Main Street and out on Houston Street and commandeered cars with cameras hanging on their backs, some of their own equipment, back up Main Street. I lost the majority of them then for a few minutes.

Mr. Hubert. Have you been given any warning by the FBI that they had received a message, or had the message been received, I think, by your office, that some attempt would be made by a group to injure Oswald?

Mr. Decker. That's along 12:30 or 1 o'clock in the morning—that's when that occurred. That's when I got on the telephone, you see, sir—I'm sure that you don't understand this, but, you know, but no man—it makes no difference how long he is an officer, ever imagined that he could work on an investigation the size of this one and therefore, of course, you realize that my officers and I'm sure some of the city officers, myself included, were working under just a little bit of pressure.

Anyway, this thing you are talking about came to me from my office man, Sergeant McCoy, and he had received a call from the Federal Bureau of Investigation, Milt Newsom, who stated to him that this boy was going to be killed and that he had good information. He relayed that message to me at my home, and I asked him had the city been notified and he said, "Yes."

Mr. Hubert. That was early in the morning, as I recall?

Mr. Decker. It was 12:30; 12:30 in the night.

Mr. Hubert. 12:30 on the morning of the 24th?

49 Mr. Decker. Yes; and I called that office and I talked to a man whom I believe to be Frazier, is that correct?

I don't know the gentleman only there by telephone conversation.

Mr. Hubert. You, yourself, talked to him and told him what you had heard?

Mr. Decker. I told him what I had heard and talked to him about the transfer, and I even went so far as to advise McCoy to call in a pair of my supervisory personnel to stand by my office, that should they decide to transfer this man, they would be available and we would have the other men moved in there to make it secure—to have the security.

Mr. Hubert. Did you make any suggestions that he be moved earlier than the time that had been announced?

Mr. Decker. I did. I suggested to get the man on down to the lower end of Main Street.

Mr. Hubert. Before the time announced?

Mr. Decker. Yes; then.

Mr. Hubert. Who did you say that to—Frazier?

Mr. Decker. I'm sure I told it to Frazier and I'm sure there was one or somebody in Fritz' office—I don't remember whether it was Baker or Wells, I talked to one of those persons.

Mr. Hubert. That was when you got this call from the FBI?

Mr. Decker. When I got this call from my night sergeant.

Mr. Hubert. It was still nighttime?

Mr. Decker. Yes—it was in the morning—12:30 in the morning.

Mr. Hubert. It was your suggestion that he should be moved immediately?

Mr. Decker. I felt that he should be moved—yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. What reply did you get?

Mr. Decker. They stated that they were going to ask him if he wouldn't feel better to talk to his superiors and see what could be done. He called me back shortly and stated that he had had no success in contacting them, and I think that was about the extent of our conversation. I kept my men, my supervisory personnel standing by in the event that they did change their timing or anything and notified us. I asked him if he had any success to call me and that we would make arrangements to take care of the prisoner either way, and I meant by that that we would transfer him or whatever was necessary to be done.

Mr. Hubert. At this point let me ask you: When a man is transferred to your custody, may he thereafter be interviewed by the city police?

Mr. Decker. Anybody who wishes to.

Mr. Hubert. So that Captain Fritz and others could have continued their investigation?

Mr. Decker. It's not customary for them to bring a prisoner down until they have finished their investigation in the city.

Mr. Hubert. I understand that, but the transfer to you would not have cut off their opportunity to investigate?

Mr. Decker. Oh, no—no—it wouldn't have cut it off to anybody—any law enforcing agency. Just the same as Ruby, Ruby has been interviewed in my jail by city police, the FBI agents, and incidentally may I ask you a question?

Mr. Hubert. Well——

Mr. Decker. If you can answer it, all well and good—I can't. I keep getting information here that we are going to have you people—you people are going to attempt to interview this prisoner that I have now, and if that is correct, why of course I would like to make some provisions to talk to somebody before it happens. Of course, it will take a court order for me to move him, which of course you know is no trouble to obtain—you know that.

Mr. Hubert. I can't comment on that.

Mr. Decker. Don't, if you can't, sir—it's all right, but of course I am leaving that with you that I would like to have some advance knowledge. You can comment on that—that you will do it if you have any knowledge.

Mr. Hubert. Well, I'm sure if such a decision is made by the people who are authorized to make it, that they will cooperate with you in every way possible.

50 Mr. Decker. And, I would like to keep it out of the press also because every time I turn around with Mr. Ruby, I am blasted with this.

Mr. Hubert. Of course, that's another matter—that's out of my control.

Mr. Decker. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. I repeat that I think that if such a thing should come about, that you would be contacted and that the various problems that might exist in the matter would be discussed with you fully and that the persons representing the Commission would cooperate with you.

Mr. Decker. I'm sure they will.

Mr. Hubert. In every way you wish them to do so, consistent, of course, with their mission.

Mr. Decker. It makes no difference. I'm sorry, but I don't seem to have in this file Perry McCoy's statement. I think you have a statement from McCoy.

Mr. Hubert. Yes.

Mr. Decker. He made one—stating the times that he talked to the man, the conversations, and substantiated exactly practically what I said to you.

Mr. Hubert. I think we have covered the point.

Mr. Decker. I know you have because I sent him up there to be interviewed.

Mr. Hubert. I have heretofore shown you two documents identified as follows: The first being a report of an interview of you by Officer Neeley.

Mr. Decker. That's correct.

Mr. Hubert. On November 27, 1963.

Mr. Decker. That's where I told him I didn't wish to discuss the matter any further over the telephone.

Mr. Hubert. I have identified it by marking on the margin, "Dallas, Texas, April 16, 1964, Exhibit 5321, Deposition of Sheriff J. E. Decker." That consists of one page.

The second document also consists of one page. It is a report of an interview by James W. Bookhout of you on November 28, 1963. That document I have marked for identification as follows:

"Dallas, Texas, April 16, 1964, Exhibit 5322, Deposition of Sheriff J. E. Decker," and I have signed my name. I think you have had an opportunity to read these two?

Mr. Decker. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. I should like to ask you, sir, if these documents are fair statements of the interviews that you had with the FBI agents indicated?

Mr. Decker. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Are they correct?

Mr. Decker. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Have you any comment to make with respect to either one of them?

Mr. Decker. No, sir; I think they speak for themselves, sir.

Mr. Hubert. May I ask if you have any particular comment, sheriff, to make with regard to the last paragraph of exhibit 5321, which reads in part as follows:

"Sheriff Decker stated that he had no desire to discuss this matter further and does not desire to furnish any details of the conversations he had with the Police Department and declined to say whether he advised the Police Department he had a preference as to the time of day the transfer of the prisoner should be made."

Mr. Decker. That was a telephone conversation. I had an office full of people and that's what it was and I didn't make any statement—no more than I made directly to you here about the call, and which McCoy made, which is a statement which you have from McCoy in your files.

Mr. Hubert. As I understand it, then, your explanation of the paragraph is that you did not wish to discuss the matter further over the telephone and in the presence of the people who were there?

Mr. Decker. Well, I don't believe I went that far. I just said I didn't care to discuss it any further and I got my friend Neeley off the line. That's all there was to it. And I never had the opportunity to talk to him afterward again until I met him several days ago, you know, he works in north Texas and is in and out, but that's all the conversation he and I had—what you have there.

51 Mr. Hubert. Well, what I had in mind to ask you was this: On the face of the paragraph that I have just read from Exhibit 5321, it looks like there was an attitude on your part that you didn't wish to cooperate with the FBI—I am just simply wanting to get the record straight from your point of view—as to what was your intention.

Mr. Decker. As I said at that time—I didn't care to discuss it any further at that time. That's all there is to it.

Mr. Hubert. Yes; I understand, but this paragraph is correct and stands as it is?

Mr. Decker. Yes, sir; I did not—at that time I didn't discuss it. There was no reason to go into why, and why—I told him my reasons a moment ago.

Mr. Hubert. Now, sheriff, I have noticed that you have looked from time to time at a book which I gather must be your own or the official record?

Mr. Decker. No; it's part of my records there. It doesn't have all the statements in it as it should have.

Mr. Hubert. Were copies of those statements made—are they available?

Mr. Decker. They are yours—you can have them if you want them to keep them.

Mr. Hubert. This copy?

Mr. Decker. You can have the whole thing. The only thing that is not in there is McCoy's and about three or four other statements. I will submit the whole thing to you if you want it right now. You can take it with you. I have no objections.

Mr. Hubert. Do you wish to have this returned to you—this seems to be a copy anyway—this is not the original.

Mr. Decker. Yes; those are photostatic copies. I can furnish you those others—I can furnish you that copy on McCoy and I can furnish the copy on two or three others that I have down there but I don't know where McCoy's is and I don't know whether they left it out of there or not—since McCoy's I have testified to, I would like to furnish it to you.

Mr. Hubert. All right.

Mr. Decker. And will send it to you shortly.

Mr. Hubert. Let me mark this document, then—I am marking it, "Dallas, Tex., April 16, 1964, as Exhibit 5323, Deposition of Sheriff J. E. Decker," and I am signing my name to it.

The document is actually a dark brown heavy folder with an Acco fastener. It is called Acco Press on the inside and bears the label on the outside, "Harvey Lee Oswald, WM 24, Murder—11-22-63 of John Fitzgerald Kennedy; W-M-46, President of the United States. Assault to murder: Gov. John B. Connally." On the left hand bottom side of the cover is a sticker on which there is typewritten "File of: Sheriff's Department, Dallas, Tex., Bill Decker, Sheriff," under which I have written the identification of it as I dictated it a moment ago into the record.

Turning on to the inside of the book, it seems to be divided up into parts. There is a yellow, light cardboard division marker, which in the left hand bottom says, "Crime Reports." In that are 2 yellow sheets and 10 white sheets. I am marking the cover with my initials and the yellow and white sheets with my initials, all in the lower right hand corner. The next subdivision which is made by a light cardboard sheet, is entitled, "Witness affidavits." I am marking it with my initials.

Mr. Decker. Now, you are supposed to have copies of all of those affidavits come to you from some agency—I don't know which.

Mr. Hubert. And, each of the sheets thereof I am marking with my initials. There are 35 of such sheets.

Then, in the last part of the book, also divided by a light yellow cardboard sheet on which I am putting my initials, that division sheet is entitled "Officers supplement," and there are 42 sheets which I have marked with my initials. Is this document, Sheriff Decker, that you have handed me a complete record of what you have concerning Oswald? I think you mentioned that there might be one document or two that you wished to send me?

Mr. Decker. I would like to send you a copy of McCoy's statement, a copy of McCoy's report in there and maybe a couple of other statements, that's all.52 There may be some others—I can send those to you anywhere—Washington or anywhere, it makes no difference, or I can send them up here to you in the next 45 minutes after I leave here.

Mr. Hubert. After lunch will be all right.

Mr. Decker. Fine, I will send them up.

Mr. Hubert. I will just attach them to this exhibit.

Mr. Decker. That's all right—they belong in there and I don't know how they got out, but in comparing them, making a new one up, you lose some once in a while—as much paperwork as we do in law enforcement fields this day and time, you lose a heck of a lot of it.

Mr. Hubert. Now, Sheriff Decker, has any member of the Commission's staff interviewed you other than myself?

Mr. Decker. No, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Have you anything further you wish to add?

Mr. Decker. I don't know why I should take any more of your time. You have practically everything I have that is of value to you. If there is anything further you want—we are available and you have a big job to do——

Mr. Hubert. Well, that's all right—that's what I'm here for.

Mr. Decker. I know that.

Mr. Hubert. But if we know all that you know, then that's all right.

Mr. Decker. That's right—so, there is no reason of going over it.

Mr. Hubert. Is it your thought that considering your testimony here today and what you have told the FBI and your records——

Mr. Decker. And my records that I have given to you—turned over to you and what my other deputies have given to you, I don't know of any reason to take up any more of your time, sir.

Mr. Hubert. All right, thank you very much.

Mr. Decker. I will be delighted to have you come and see my operation before you leave and it might clear up some things there for you.

Mr. Hubert. All right, thank you.

Mr. Decker. Thank you.

TESTIMONY OF CAPT. W. B. FRAZIER

The testimony of Capt. W. B. Frazier was taken at 2 p.m., on March 25, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. Hubert. This is the deposition of Capt. W. B. Frazier, Dallas Police Department. Captain Frazier, my name is Leon Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel on the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy.

Captain Frazier. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Under the provisions of President Johnson's Executive Order No. 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and the Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the President's Commission in conformance with the Executive order and the joint resolution, I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you, among many officers of the detective bureau. Your name has been specifically mentioned as a person from whom I could take a sworn deposition. I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald. In particular as to you, Captain Frazier, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry. Now, Captain, you have appeared here today by virtue of a letter addressed to Chief Curry by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, who is the general counsel for the President's Commission. Under the rules adopted by the Commission every witness is entitled to a 3-day written notice prior to the taking of his deposition. The rules also53 provide, however, that if the witness wishes he may waive the 3-day notice in writing. I say to you that you have a right to the 3-day notice, which you have not received, but I ask you if you wish to waive that 3 day——

Captain Frazier. No.

Mr. Hubert. You don't wish——

Captain Frazier. Oh, I will waive it.

Mr. Hubert. You do not wish to persist in your right to have the 3-day notice?

Captain Frazier. No.

Mr. Hubert. Then I'll ask you to stand, sir, and raise your right hand to be sworn. Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Captain Frazier. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Will you state your full name, please?

Mr. Frazier. William Bennett Frazier.

Mr. Hubert. Your age?

Mr. Frazier. Forty-three.

Mr. Hubert. Where do you live, sir?

Mr. Frazier. 2205 Newcastle, Garland, Tex.

Mr. Hubert. What is your occupation?

Mr. Frazier. Police officer.

Mr. Hubert. How long have you been on the police department of Dallas?

Mr. Frazier. For 17½ years.

Mr. Hubert. You have the rank of captain?

Mr. Frazier. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. What particular function or duties are you assigned to in the department, sir?

Mr. Frazier. I am in charge of the radio patrol platoon.

Mr. Hubert. Who is your immediate superior?

Mr. Frazier. Chief N. T. Fisher.

Mr. Hubert. Did you have the same rank and the same duties during the period November 22 to 24, 1963?

Mr. Frazier. I did, yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Now, I understand that you were on duty on the morning of the 24th of November, is that correct, sir?

Mr. Frazier. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. What time did you come on duty? Do you know?

Mr. Frazier. At 11 p.m., on the 23d.

Mr. Hubert. I think that is what they call the first shift?

Mr. Frazier. First platoon.

Mr. Hubert. First platoon, rather, and that goes until roughly 7 in the morning?

Mr. Frazier. Around 7; yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Had you been on duty the night before, that is, on first platoon. That would have been——

Mr. Frazier. What day would it have been, sir?

Mr. Hubert. Well, it would have been the 23d.

Mr. Frazier. I mean, what day of the week.

Mr. Hubert. Oh, the day before would have been Saturday.

Mr. Frazier. Yes, sir; I was on duty at the time. That would have been the first platoon. Yes, sir; I was on duty at the time.

Mr. Hubert. Was your office, in fact, in the building?

Mr. Frazier. On the second floor.

Mr. Hubert. Did you have anything to do at all with the interrogation, or the security of Oswald?

Mr. Frazier. No, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Now, on the 24th of November, about in the middle of the shift there, about 3 or 3:30 or 3:45 that morning, I understand you received a telephone call from an FBI agent, is that correct?

Mr. Frazier. Yes, sir; Mr. Newsom, I believe his name is.

Mr. Hubert. Can you tell me how it came to you? How did the call come to you?

Mr. Frazier. Mr. Newsom called me and said he had received a threat from54 some man to the effect that a group of men, I believe he indicated they had 100 or 200, I don't recall the exact number, were going to attempt to kill Oswald that day sometime. That he didn't want the FBI, Dallas Police Department or the sheriff's office injured in any way. That was the reason for the call. So, Mr. Newsom called me and related that story to me.

Mr. Hubert. Were you in charge of the police department at the time?

Mr. Frazier. I was in charge of the patrol section.

Mr. Hubert. Patrol section?

Mr. Frazier. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. What other senior officers were on duty?

Mr. Frazier. I guess I was the senior on any division at that morning; yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. As I understand it, Chief Curry was not there, Chief Batchelor was not there?

Mr. Frazier. No, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Stevenson was not there?

Mr. Frazier. No, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Who is your immediate superior?

Mr. Frazier. Fisher. He was not there.

Mr. Hubert. You, in fact, were the ranking officer?

Mr. Frazier. On duty at that time; yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Were you aware of that? I mean, are you made aware of that?

Mr. Frazier. Oh, yes, sir; yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. How is it done?

Mr. Frazier. Well, just the fact that the officers under—who rank under you are there, and there is nobody of equal rank or higher present in the entire police department, it reverts to you.

Mr. Hubert. The highest in rank is in charge of the whole operation?

Mr. Frazier. It is.

Mr. Hubert. So, if someone had asked for who was in—if Newsom had asked to speak to the top man in charge, you were that man, that day?

Mr. Frazier. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Had you heard any of that news of that sort from another source?

Mr. Frazier. No, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Do you know a man by the name of Deputy Cox, or Coy in the sheriff's——

Mr. Frazier. I talked to that man later on in the morning after Mr. Newsom called me. But I don't know the name, whether it was Coy, or Cox, but he indicated that Sheriff Decker wanted to talk to Chief Curry in regards to moving Oswald, so, I, in turn then attempted to contact Chief Curry by telephone and his line was busy.

Mr. Hubert. That was about what time?

Mr. Frazier. I don't know. 5:45, 6 o'clock, somewhere along there. Then I tried for some 10 or 15 minutes to get his line, and it was busy, so, I asked the operator to check into it. She came back and said the line was out of order, so, I in turn, was preparing to send a squad by the chief's home and tell him of the information and that Decker wanted him to call him and Captain Talbert relieved me around 6 or 6:15. I give him the information and he said he sent a squad later and told the chief about it.

Mr. Hubert. I think earlier you had called Captain Fritz, hadn't you?

Mr. Frazier. Yes, I called Captain Fritz once or twice in an effort to see if they were handling it or if the chief was handling it, or if homicide—Captain Fritz was handling it. Since he is the captain in charge of that particular bureau, so, naturally I called him first.

Mr. Hubert. That was when you got the message from Newsom?

Mr. Frazier. A little while later; yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. What did he say about it?

Mr. Frazier. He said I should talk to Chief Curry, that he was handling the transfer.

Mr. Hubert. That Chief Curry——

Mr. Frazier. Yes, sir; not him.

55 Mr. Hubert. Not him? Did he tell you of any plans made for the transfer? Did Captain Fritz tell you of any plans made for the transfer?

Mr. Frazier. I don't recall, sir. He may have said—I'm not sure. I heard this later on in the morning, I think, but I'm not sure. He may have said then that he planned to move him around 10 the next day. I don't recall whether he said it or some other officer said it later on in the morning, but I did hear it. Now, I don't say whether Captain Fritz is the one that told me or not. I don't recall the exact conversation there other than the fact that I had asked him if he was handling it and he said, "No." Chief Curry was handling it.

Mr. Hubert. Do you remember when you spoke to Mr. Newsom from the FBI whether Mr. Newsom told you that the Dallas Sheriff's Office had received a similar call to the one he was relating to you?

Mr. Frazier. No; I don't recall that. He possibly—he could have said it, but I do not recall it, sir.

Mr. Hubert. When the gentlemen from the sheriff's office, either Cox or Coy, called you that was simply about when the transfer was going to take place, is that correct?

Mr. Frazier. I assume that is what it was. He indicated to me that Decker wanted to get ahold of Chief Curry and move him as soon as possible.

Mr. Hubert. Did that man mention to you about the receipt of any threats such as Newsom had told you about?

Mr. Frazier. I believe he did.

Mr. Hubert. That was the second threat you had received that morning? In other words, the threat came from two sources, so far as you know. You heard it from the FBI, and this man from the sheriff's office?

Mr. Frazier. Indicated——

Mr. Hubert. Indicated that he had received a threat?

Mr. Frazier. I believe he did; yes.

Mr. Hubert. Do you remember saying to Mr. Newsom that the plan to transfer Oswald to the county jail might be changed in view of the threat that he had conveyed to you?

Mr. Frazier. No, sir; no, sir. That wasn't any of my business, that transfer, and I'm sure I didn't relate that to him, because I'd be telling him something that I didn't know about, really, at that time.

Mr. Hubert. Do you remember telling Mr. Newsom of the FBI, on the occasion that he called you that morning around 2 or 2:30, that Oswald's plans of transfer had been publicized primarily as a form of cooperation with press and news agencies?

Mr. Frazier. No, sir.

Mr. Hubert. You did not make that——

Mr. Frazier. Huh-uh.

Mr. Hubert. You did not make that statement?

Mr. Frazier. I did not make any such statement.

Mr. Hubert. Was there any planned transfer, to your knowledge?

Mr. Frazier. All I knew that they was supposed to move the next day, and then perhaps later in the morning I—maybe Captain Fritz told me that they were supposed to move him around 10 a.m., that morning.

Mr. Hubert. That is as to time, but did you know of any plans prior to going off duty that day as to the method, the route, and the vehicles to be used?

Mr. Frazier. No, sir; no, sir.

Mr. Hubert. What time did you go off duty, sir?

Mr. Frazier. It was around 6 or 6:15, or something like that, sir.

Mr. Hubert. What time did you come back then?

Mr. Frazier. If that was——

Mr. Hubert. Did you leave the department and go home?

Mr. Frazier. Yes; I went home and I went to bed. I was asleep when Oswald was shot.

Mr. Hubert. When did you hear about that?

Mr. Frazier. My wife awakened me shortly thereafter. She had seen it on TV. She was watching the transfer on TV, and she awakened me.

Mr. Hubert. Did you go down there?

56 Mr. Frazier. No, sir; I called and asked if they needed me. They said, "No, stay where you are. You will have to work tonight." So, I stayed there.

Mr. Hubert. Fritz has said—did I understand you to say, that Curry was in charge of all transfers?

Mr. Frazier. Was in charge of that transfer.

Mr. Hubert. Of that particular—of Oswald's transfer?

Mr. Frazier. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Do you know a man by the name of W. J. Harrison, I think they call him "Blackie," a detective?

Mr. Frazier. Yes, sir; he is a patrolman temporarily assigned to CID. Yes, sir; I believe he is in the juvenile bureau. I'm not sure, but I think he is.

Mr. Hubert. Did you ever hear him talk about his experiences on the 24th?

Mr. Frazier. No, sir; I haven't seen him. I haven't seen "Blackie" in, I guess, 6 months or so, maybe longer.

Mr. Hubert. Do you know Patrick Dean?

Mr. Frazier. P. T. Dean? Sergeant Dean? I know him; yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Have you spoken to him about his activities on that day?

Mr. Frazier. No, sir; he works on another platoon and another captain and I don't come in contact with him very often except just to say hello as we are going off duty or coming on and only one I confer with is the captain in charge of the platoon coming on when I leave.

Mr. Hubert. The radio patrol is what, actually?

Mr. Frazier. It is the regular squad car, two-man squad car that patrols the entire city. We have anywhere from 185 to 205 men on duty at most platoons. However, our day platoon is our lowest. It will run 120, 125.

Mr. Hubert. These men are cruising areas?

Mr. Frazier. Yes, sir; districts.

Mr. Hubert. And they are controlled by radio communication from your office?

Mr. Frazier. No, sir; from the dispatcher's office, which is——

Mr. Hubert. So, if you want to contact any of those people you can do it directly, you do it through a dispatcher?

Mr. Frazier. Through the dispatcher; yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. When you—were you on duty when the President was shot?

Mr. Frazier. No, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Were you called in?

Mr. Frazier. No, sir.

Mr. Hubert. You just took your regular shift at 11 o'clock that night?

Mr. Frazier. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. You had gotten off at 7 o'clock?

Mr. Frazier. 6 or 7 that morning; yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. If we would want to find out about the dispatch sent out right after the President's death, or right before, whom would we contact? What would be the name of the officer?

Mr. Frazier. Lumpkin, George Lumpkin.

Mr. Hubert. Lumpkin?

Mr. Frazier. Yes, sir; he is in charge of all communications and I believe most of that is on tape. They tried to tape most of the conversations.

Mr. Hubert. They keep the tape?

Mr. Frazier. Yes; permanent records, as I understand it.

Mr. Hubert. Now, I show you a document which I have marked for identification with the following inscription, in my own handwriting, "Dallas, Tex., March 25, 1964, Exhibit 5086, deposition of W. B. Frazier." I have signed the first page, and placed my initials in the lower right hand corner of the second page. I'll ask you if that statement—if you have read that document and whether it is substantially correct?

Mr. Frazier. Yes, sir; it is.

Mr. Hubert. I would ask you, therefore, if you would sign your name under mine and place your initials under mine on the second page?

Mr. Frazier. Right here, sir?

Mr. Hubert. Yes; right there and then sign your name on the front page right under my signature there.

57 Mr. Frazier. Over here?

Mr. Hubert. Yes.

Mr. Frazier. All right, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Now, I hand you another document which I have marked for—"Dallas, Tex., March 25, 1964, Exhibit 5087, deposition of W. B. Frazier." I have signed my name to the bottom of this document which purports to be a report by Special Agent Melton L. Newsom of the FBI, of a conversation which he had over the telephone with you on November 24, 1963, at about 3:20 a.m., and I'll ask you if that report by Mr. Newsom of that conversation is a correct report of that conversation?

Mr. Frazier. No, sir; I don't believe it is.

Mr. Hubert. Would you indicate what parts are correct and what parts are wrong?

Mr. Frazier. Now, you are asking of my own knowledge, is that correct?

Mr. Hubert. Yes, sir.

Mr. Frazier. Now, this first paragraph here, I know nothing of this. Mr. Glassup. He didn't talk to me.

Mr. Hubert. No; I think the——

Mr. Frazier. And, he received the call I understand here, and it goes into, "I represent a committee that—it is neither right nor left wing," and so forth. I didn't get all that in the conversation with Newsom, that I recall. Newsom told me that a group of men, I believe he indicated a hundred or two were going to kill Oswald the following day, the day after the night—or, you know, the next day or two. Now, that was essentially what he told me.

Mr. Hubert. Do you say he didn't tell you that had been received by Glassup?

Mr. Frazier. No, sir; he said they received information, or threats.

Mr. Hubert. Nor did he give you the exact language of the threat, as indicated in that?

Mr. Frazier. No, sir; he did not.

Mr. Hubert. He simply told you that they had received the threat and the sense of the threat was along the lines of the paragraph, first paragraph?

Mr. Frazier. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. But, neither mentioned Glassup's name, nor did he speak the exact quoted language which—when he spoke to you?

Mr. Frazier. That's right.

Mr. Hubert. Now, what about the next paragraph, second paragraph?

Mr. Frazier. Yes, sir; that is essentially correct. However, I believe he did advise the Dallas sheriff's office had received a similar call. That is essentially correct, that paragraph.

Mr. Hubert. All right; what about the third paragraph?

Mr. Frazier. The third paragraph, I don't recall making that statement.

Mr. Hubert. What about the fourth paragraph?

Mr. Frazier. Because, at that time, I did not know exactly what the plans were to move Oswald, see.

Mr. Hubert. And what about the last paragraph?

Mr. Frazier. No, sir; no, sir.

Mr. Hubert. You mean to say that you do not recall?

Mr. Frazier. No, sir; I do not recall making that statement to Mr. Newsom.

Mr. Hubert. I would like for you to do this then with reference to that document. Just place the word, next to the last paragraph, "incorrect," and initial it.

Mr. Frazier. All right, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Have you initialled it?

Mr. Frazier. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. All right; now, with that——

Mr. Frazier. And the top paragraph.

Mr. Hubert. Well, the top paragraph——

Mr. Frazier. I couldn't attest to that either.

Mr. Hubert. Please explain what your position is on it, and if you would like to sign your name just below mine so then we have the matter in hand.

Mr. Frazier. Yes, sir.

58 Mr. Hubert. Now, is there anything else that you would like to state that has not been said?

Mr. Frazier. No, sir; nothing more to my knowledge.

Mr. Hubert. Prior to the commencement of this deposition with you, have you been interviewed by any member of the Commission's Staff?

Mr. Frazier. No, sir.

Mr. Hubert. You were not interviewed by me, in fact, before it began?

Mr. Frazier. No.

Mr. Hubert. Thank you very much.

TESTIMONY OF CAPT. O. A. JONES

The testimony of Capt. O. A. Jones was taken at 9 a.m., on March 24, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. Hubert. This is the Dallas deposition of Capt. O. A. Jones, Forgery Bureau, Dallas Police Department. My name is Leon D. Hubert, Jr. I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel of the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy.

Under the Provisions of the Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, the joint resolution of Congress, No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the Commission in conformance with the Executive order and the Commission, I have been authorized to take the sworn deposition from you, Mr. Jones. I state to you now that the general nature on the Commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald.

In particular as to you Captain Jones, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent fact you may know about the general inquiry. Captain Jones, you have appeared here today by virtue of a general request made by the general counsel on the staff of the President's Commission to Chief Curry.

Under the rules adopted by the Commission you are entitled to have a 3-day written notice prior to the taking of this deposition. The rules of the Commission also provide that the witness may waive the notice. Do you waive the 3-day notice now?

Captain Jones. Yes, sir; I do.

Mr. Hubert. Will you be sworn, please?

Captain Jones. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Captain Jones. I do.

Mr. Hubert. Captain Jones, please state your full name?

Captain Jones. Orville [spelling] O-r-v-i-l-l-e Aubrey [spelling] A-u-b-r-e-y Jones.

Mr. Hubert. Your age?

Captain Jones. Forty-nine.

Mr. Hubert. And your residence?

Captain Jones. 2603 Alco [spelling] A-l-c-o Avenue, Dallas 11, Tex.

Mr. Hubert. What is your present occupation, Captain Jones?

Captain Jones. Captain in the city police department, Dallas, Tex.

Mr. Hubert. How long have you held that rank, sir?

Captain Jones. April of 1957.

Mr. Hubert. What is your particular assignment now?

Captain Jones. Commanding officer in the forgery bureau.

Mr. Hubert. You are under Chief Stevenson?

Captain Jones. M. W. Stevenson is my superior officer.

59 Mr. Hubert. And your rank and duties were the same during the period of November 22 and 24, 1963?

Captain Jones. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Now, Captain, I show you three documents which I am numbering—I show you three documents upon which I am writing the following in the lower right-hand corner. "Dallas, Texas, March 24, 1964. Exhibit No. 5054, deposition of Capt. O. A. Jones." Beneath which I have signed my name, Leon D. Hubert. The second document which I am endorsing "Dallas, Texas, March 24, 1964, Exhibit No. 5055, deposition of Capt. O. A. Jones," and I am signing my signature below that. That document consisting of three pages, and I am initialing—two other—to revert back for a moment to No. 5054, that has a second page and I am placing my initials on the second page of that document in the lower right-hand corner. Third document, I am writing on the right-hand margin the following: "Dallas, Texas, March 24, 1964. Exhibit 5056. Deposition of Capt. O. A. Jones," and I am signing my name below that. That document containing three pages. I am taking my initials and placing them on the second and third pages. Now, Captain, I think you have read these three documents which I——

Captain Jones. I have; yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Now, I would like you to place your name below mine on each one of these pages, please, and your initials below mine on the other pages, after which I'm going to ask you some questions concerning these documents.

Captain Jones. All right, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Just below mine and then initial the second and third page below my initials there. Now, Captain, I think you have already stated that you have read these three documents?

Captain Jones. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Exhibit 5054, 5055, and 5056, and I am going to ask you if, in your opinion, those documents represent the truth, or if you have any kind of amendments, modifications, or additions that you want to make?

Captain Jones. There are some additions.

Mr. Hubert. Would you state for the record what amendments or modifications, whatever else you have to about the documents.

Captain Jones. This is off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. Hubert. Now, back on the record. Anyhow, with reference directed at 5054, Captain, what have you to say as to that? That being a report of Special Agents James W. Bookhout and Joseph M. Meyers, of an interview of you by those gentlemen on November 25, 1963.

Captain Jones. First, let me say that they make reference—they are correct, but they have grouped together under "specific instructions that I received." I received, at two different times, that is not at the same time. At first, when I was sent downstairs Chief Stevenson gave me instructions to go to the Commerce Street ramp, place two patrolmen there to assist an armored car down that ramp to get it backed as far down as possible, down in the basement——

Mr. Hubert. Before you leave that, do you know about what time it was?

Captain Jones. I'd say only about 11 o'clock, and it could have been a little before because of the amount of time required on that, but I didn't look at my watch.

Mr. Hubert. Thank you.

Captain Jones. Do you want me to go on to the other points?

Mr. Hubert. Yes.

Captain Jones. The other part. In one sentence I gave, he has specific instructions about keeping them back, and Chief Batchelor and Chief Stevenson did so later when they came to the basement, and I called the attention that photographers were out in the other part of the jail office now, and there was nothing said upstairs—said about clearing anything except what I said that one thing, except—take—taking any detectives remaining on the third floor and placing them where I wanted them, where I felt they would be needed. That goes into it a little more in detail, but by having that in front of me right now. If you could, I can show you the point that he states he instructed me to secure the area for the transport of Lee Harvey Oswald from the Dallas City Jail to60 the Dallas County Jail—with additional specific instructions from Chief Stevenson or Chief Batchelor or to have detectives under their supervision to question the news media to keep the basement east of the driveway—that came up after we got down in the basement, and it reads maybe as if it was given at another place.

Mr. Hubert. What you have just read and commented upon is from the first paragraph of a document 5054? Right?

Captain Jones. Yes, sir; right.

Mr. Hubert. Go ahead now.

Captain Jones. The—in other words, the two instructions given previously before I went to the basement were: One, to arrange to have officers assist the armored truck which they told me was en route, to back into the Commerce Street ramp down into the city hall and as far as possible. Number two; take any remaining detectives from the third floor down to the basement and place them where I thought they might be needed.

Mr. Hubert. Would you state for the record how you carried out those specific orders?

Captain Jones. Yes, sir; I made a round of all CIB Bureaus, with the exception of homicide and robbery, which was working on the assassination, and got—I can't tell you, two or three or some detectives that were remaining, and we went down the elevator. This is the one I went down with the—and I don't know who they were, and don't have any names. Didn't make a detail—but I went up and did see Patrolman Jez and one other patrolman that I don't know his name——

Mr. Hubert. They were in uniform?

Captain Jones. They were in uniform. They would remain and assist the armored truck in backing down there. And the detectives that had come with me were standing at the jail office. I had left them at the door of the jail office, and coming back toward the ramp, I came upon Captain Talbert, in charge of the patrol division, and told him that Patrolman Jez and the other officer were up there and what the Chief had said.

Mr. Hubert. All right. Now, have you any other comments to make about——

Captain Jones. Now, that is all about that.

Mr. Hubert. Now, I understand that that is document 5054?

Captain Jones. Let me check on this now for sure. That is—yes; that is all right now.

Mr. Hubert. All right. And Exhibit 5055.

Captain Jones. May I ask you a question?

Mr. Hubert. Yes, sir.

Captain Jones. Now then, the instructions about checking that, you want to get to that later that I got—where Chief Batchelor and Chief Stevenson——

Mr. Hubert. What I want to do is get through these documents.

Captain Jones. All right, sir. Now, our next exhibit. That would be 5055?

Mr. Hubert. Yes. That is the letter addressed on November 26th, to Chief J. E. Curry?

Captain Jones. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. This is a copy of the original which apparently was signed by you?

Captain Jones. Yes, sir; that's right.

Mr. Hubert. I think you have read it.

Captain Jones. I have read it, and only one thing on that. That is on page 2, at the top—where I had two different directions running from the jail office door across the ramp running east, and then I turned and went south, and we called that east, too, but it is—only thing the right is running, instead of east, should have read south.

Mr. Hubert. Where is that, sir?

Captain Jones. All right, sir. I will show you. Up here this word "east," probably should be "south."

Mr. Hubert. Suppose we change that from "this point running east," and I will encircle it and put the word "south," and putting my own initial below the change, and ask you if you would——

Captain Jones. Running east from the door of the jail office to the rail61 on the opposite side, and down a line from this point running south. Yes, sir; that's right.

Mr. Hubert. So, just initial the change then and the word "east," which we encircled and changed to "south," and Captain Jones and myself are initialling the change.

Captain Jones. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Other than that, do you have any changes that should be made?

Captain Jones. Let that stand.

Mr. Hubert. Then this document which I have identified as Exhibit 5056, being the report by the FBI, specifically by Agents Edward Mabey and Kenneth Hughes [spelling] H-u-g-h-e-s, of an interview with you, apparently, on December 2, 1963, and ask you if you have any corrections to make as to that?

Captain Jones. Yes, sir; there are one or two changes that I would like to make in that.

Mr. Hubert. All right.

Captain Jones. Let's see. Can I see it just one moment, sir?

Mr. Hubert. Sure.

Captain Jones. All right. I would like to make the following changes. At the bottom of page 1, of Exhibit—that is 5056, I believe?

Mr. Hubert. That's right.

Captain Jones. The last sentence that reads, "Jones assisted in holding back the press line during the process, and gave instructions to all officers near the jail office and the door to allow no one in the area from the jail to the automobile, down the route the prisoner was to take."

Mr. Hubert. Now, what is your comment?

Captain Jones. The comment is that the sentence should have read, "Jones assisted holding back the press lines through the process of moving the automobile onto the ramp." The rest of the sentence refers back to just prior to that when the instructions had been given to keep those things clear. Immediately following the clearing of the jail office is when I gave those instructions at that time, to hold the people back and get those—I did not have time or the opportunity, and did not turn at that time and tell everybody that we were trying to get the car back up into position.

Mr. Hubert. Have you any change or comments to make upon the document—5056?

Captain Jones. Yes, sir; on page 2, of this same exhibit.

Mr. Hubert. Off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. Hubert. Now, back on the record.

Captain Jones. Beginning with the first complete paragraph that says, "Jones was walking up the Commerce Street ramp when he heard from behind him, 'Here he comes,' from an unidentified individual," and on that, there is only one change.

Whereas, Jones was walking toward the Commerce Street ramp instead of up it, now.

Mr. Hubert. In other words, you were not——

Captain Jones. In other words, I was not up on the rise itself. I was walking toward it.

Mr. Hubert. Heading from what direction?

Captain Jones. From the general area in front of the jail office door, out in the flat area. The ramps come down like [indicating] straighten out. The jail is here [indicating].

Mr. Hubert. In other words, what you wish to point out is that the Commerce Street ramp takes an upturn about half way up the ramp?

Captain Jones. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. And that you want to indicate that you had not reached the up-rise?

Captain Jones. No, sir; I had not.

Mr. Hubert. But, you were in the ramp that runs between Main and Commerce, but on the level part?

Captain Jones. On the level part, and walking toward the rise.

62 Mr. Hubert. Walking toward the rise. Any other comments concerning that?

Captain Jones. Yes, sir; on page 3——

Mr. Hubert. 5056?

Captain Jones. 5056.

Mr. Hubert. What paragraph?

Captain Jones. It will be the last sentence; begins on page 2.

Mr. Hubert. All right; the last sentence beginning on page 2. Will you read it then?

Captain Jones. "Jones then placed two officers at the swinging door just outside the jail office, and advised them not to let persons leave who had proper identification——

Mr. Hubert. Latter part of that sentence is at the top of page 3, of that Exhibit 5056, is that right?

Captain Jones. Yes, sir. The correction, sir, that is "Jones then placed two officers at the swinging doors just outside the jail office and advised them to let the reporters and news media who had identification come to the third floor."

Mr. Hubert. Other than that change, that sentence, you think, is correct?

Captain Jones. That's correct, yes, sir. Now, I have one more.

Mr. Hubert. All right. What page?

Captain Jones. It is the last paragraph of page 3, first sentence that reads——

Mr. Hubert. Now, you are talking about Exhibit 5056?

Captain Jones. Yes, sir.

"Due to the fact that Jones was recalled from vacation, he wasn't present at any briefing on the security measures that were to be in effect in the basement on November 24, 1963."

Mr. Hubert. All right?

Captain Jones. Now, on that, I had been due to go on vacation on Friday. I had continued on through. I don't know why I wasn't in on any briefing or anything. I am going to say that is the reason I wasn't, for I was down there, and that was, I'm sure—I have told the gentlemen these facts and so forth, but that I didn't attend a briefing, that I had planned to go on vacation immediately after the President's speech at the the Trade Mart, and—but I can't say why I wasn't called in on any briefing. I just wasn't in on any of them.

Mr. Hubert. Just while we are on that subject, is it a fact that you were supposed to go on a leave as soon as the President left Dallas?

Captain Jones. On Friday; yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. On Friday?

Captain Jones. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. In fact, did you go?

Captain Jones. No, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Would you state very briefly for me your activities from the time of the night before the President's visit up until the 24th? Just very briefly.

Captain Jones. All right, sir. I had been assigned previously in the week to have charge of the fourth floor at the Trade Mart where the President's luncheon was to be held. On Thursday night before——

Mr. Hubert. Wait. Thursday night?

Captain Jones. Thursday night before the luncheon. I was rather wakeful and a little nervous, certainly not anticipating an assassination, but because of some unfortunate incidents in Dallas, there was a desire not to have anything happen that would reflect on the city, and certainly even a humiliating incident such as throwing paper, eggs, or shouting or anything such as that. A little apprehensive about it, and didn't sleep very much. Went out to the Trade Mart on Friday and stationed quite a few officers at all the places on the fourth floor.

I had a listing and a schedule and all that. Remained there until afternoon—that is, after news of the assassination, and until we were told that we could leave. I then returned to the city hall and en route had cleared with the dispatcher that if he didn't have further instructions for the group with me that we would return to the city hall.

I returned, and I immediately made every officer available to Captain Fritz.63 I don't know how long that we worked that night for sure, but I do know it was after 2 o'clock when the FBI Agent Vince Drain left the city hall with some—some evidence he was going to take, and that was about 2 o'clock, Saturday morning, the 24th.

Mr. Hubert. Did you go home——

Captain Jones. Yes, I did go home for possibly 2 to 3 hours and laid down. Didn't rest very much. We came back down Saturday and continued working with Captain Fritz. Making my offices available and my men available to him during the day Saturday until Saturday evening when we filed our—our bureau filed the assault to murder charge on Oswald for the shooting of Governor Connally, which is our bureau that, assault to murder—that handles assault to murder.

Captain Fritz' bureau handles murder, and by this time I—that was filed, I began to help take incoming calls and to assist in any way that I could up there in the administration offices. Stayed up there until at least nearly midnight Saturday night. Went home, got a few hours of troubled sleep that night. Before I left, Chief Stevenson told me that it looked like my cases were all filed, everything was in pretty good shape. I might as well go ahead and take my vacation as I had planned and I told him I couldn't enjoy—a little fishing trip was what I had planned—until it was all over.

Mr. Hubert. Let me go back a moment. There was a lineup of some kind on the night of Friday, November 22, at which Oswald was brought into the lineup in the assembly room at the police department, at which a number of news media were present.

Captain Jones. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Were you present that night?

Captain Jones. No, sir; I was on the third floor at that time.

Mr. Hubert. Do you know Jack Ruby?

Captain Jones. I have known him.

Mr. Hubert. Just state how well and under what circumstances.

Captain Jones. Yes, sir; I will be glad to do that. And I do want to ask—can I say something off the record here?

Mr. Hubert. Yes.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. Hubert. Get back on the record.

During the off-the-record period, Captain Jones simply explained to me that he had omitted something from his comments relative to what?

Captain Jones. Relative to knowing Jack Ruby. I've got to find——

Mr. Hubert. Relative to what document?

Captain Jones. 5056. Document 5056; that would be the first complete paragraph on page 3, where it states, "Jones states that he did know Ruby and had known him prior to 1952, when he ran the Silver Spur, a nightclub on South Central. He stated that prior to 1952, he was a lieutenant covering this district and did go into the Silver Spur, at the most, six times looking for white subjects."

Mr. Hubert. Would you state your comments on that?

Captain Jones. The comment is that, "Jones stated that he did know Ruby and had known him prior to 1952, when he ran the Silver Spur, a nightclub on South Ervay." The next sentence should read, "He stated that prior to 1952, he was a detective assigned mostly to colored cases, but that occasionally we were assigned cases involving white suspects, and on a few occasions did go in the Silver Spur during those investigations."

Mr. Hubert. All right.

Captain Jones. I was asked how many times, and I could not estimate how many times. I said, "Not over six times, probably, altogether."

Mr. Hubert. Let me put it this way to you. Did you know him well enough so that you would have recognized him had he walked into a room?

Captain Jones. That is a question in my mind that I doubt very much that I would have. I did recognize him in the basement after someone said—before I ever saw who it ever was in custody, that it was Jack Ruby, and when I was told that in advance I did recognize him. Otherwise, it is possible that I might have recognized him had I been given that opportunity but I did not have the opportunity.

64 Mr. Hubert. Did you see him, that is to say, Jack Ruby, in your rounds of the basement any time, from the shooting of the President until the shooting of Oswald?

Captain Jones. To recognize him as such, I did not see him to recognize him then. And after seeing him at the time of the arrest, I did not recall having seen him even as a face in the crowd prior to that.

Mr. Hubert. Would you say that now with the consideration after having been told that it was Jack Ruby and recognizing him, you still don't remember having seen——

Captain Jones. I did not see that particular man in there, and not having recognized him, I don't recall seeing that face, at any time. This is with the full knowledge that since this matter I have found that one of my own men filed a simple assault case on him about a year ago, but I wasn't aware of that.

Mr. Hubert. Did you know of any plans that had been made at that time for the transportation of Oswald, prior to leaving to go home on Saturday night, the 23d of November?

Captain Jones. That is one of the questions that I am going to have to say that things have come up that during my investigation that I headed following the shooting of Oswald, by Ruby—that I headed a team of several lieutenants, and one detective investigating the security in the basement—and I have some knowledge as a result of that investigation, that no one came to me and told me about the possible transfer, or—possible transfer, or any plans for a transfer prior to me going home Saturday night.

Mr. Hubert. Were you aware that the plan was not to transfer Oswald until at least 10 o'clock on Sunday morning?

Captain Jones. It seems to me as if possibly there was something about that in my mind, but I can't tell you where I got it, but there was some talk around there. I don't know whether the time was 10 o'clock, or 9 o'clock, and since that time I have talked to people that said, "I don't know," but it does seem to me that I was under the impression that when I got up Sunday morning that if I got down there before 9 o'clock, he possibly would not have been transferred by that time, but so help me, I cannot think—I cannot say how that I knew that.

Mr. Hubert. Let me put it to you another way. Were you given any specific duty to perform or anything relative to the transfer whenever that would take place?

Captain Jones. You mean prior to that 11 o'clock, when I was sent to the basement?

Mr. Hubert. Yes; prior to Saturday night.

Captain Jones. No, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Prior to leaving on Saturday night——

Captain Jones. In fact, I was told that if I wanted to go on my fishing trip, I could go.

Mr. Hubert. So, then you got back at what time?

Captain Jones. I would say somewhere roughly around 9 o'clock, couldn't have been much after that.

Mr. Hubert. Did you do anything between 9 and, say, 10 o'clock?

Captain Jones. Yes, sir; I sure did.

Mr. Hubert. Tell us what you did.

Captain Jones. I was answering the telephone, and I can't recall specific things. It was just things that come up that needed doing right then. Getting calls——

Mr. Hubert. Let me ask you the same question I asked about the other period. Were you given any specific duties to do, or specific functions as to supervising concerning the transfer of Oswald during this period of 9 to, say, 11 o'clock, or roughly 11 o'clock, on the 24th?

Captain Jones. No, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Were you simply answering the phone?

Captain Jones. I came in and started answering the phone, and started doing whatever appeared necessary for me to do.

Mr. Hubert. What then happened next?

Captain Jones. Well, that went on for almost 2 hours or somewhere near65 that and then at approximately 11 o'clock is when Chief Stevenson came to me, and I don't know whether he came in from one of the offices. I was in the big lobby out front of the chief's office, but I came to the double doors where the secretaries have their desks, and he came to me and told me to go down to the basement of the city hall, go up the Commerce Street ramp and place two officers there to assist an armored truck that was en route to be used in the transfer of Oswald. Have those two officers there assist that truck in backing down into the basement as far as possible. "I don't know whether it will go all the way or not," also to take any available detectives on the third floor to the basement and place them where I thought they might be needed.

Mr. Hubert. Did you follow those instructions?

Captain Jones. I did.

Mr. Hubert. Can you tell us in what way you did so?

Captain Jones. All right, sir. I went to the automobile theft bureau, juvenile bureau, my own forgery bureau and—burglary and theft bureau, and got any detectives available to have them report to me at the jail office, and it seems to me, as I say, as if two or three detectives went with me. I couldn't tell you how many it was in the elevator going down with me, but—nor who they were, but I do know that when we got to the jail office I then asked them to remain in one place and I went out the door on the ramp, or on the driveway and up the ramp to Commerce Street, called Patrolman Jez and another officer, uniformed policeman, then. Relayed Chief Stevenson's instructions not to leave there that the truck was en route.

In coming back down the ramp I encountered Captain Talbert, who is in charge of the patrol division, and because Chief Stevenson had sent me down there to do that, I informed him of the instructions I had so that he wouldn't inadvertently move them, and then I returned to the officers in the basement—jail office, and just standing outside there. And from here on in—many times—I can tell you most of the things that happened. I am sure I may be a little unsure of the time, or sequence of things, for there in a matter of a few minutes quite a lot of things were done, but I returned into there and told the officers to remain there, that——

Mr. Hubert. When you say that you returned——

Captain Jones. To the jail office on the basement floor. Now, who they were, I don't know. I am sure some of it is mentioned in the individual officers' reports that we have, of the ones that were there that I was talking to and told them as far as I knew the armored car was going, that was going to transfer him, that was backed up, it was backed up there and we would see the prisoner was safely escorted over to that. Meantime, someone, I couldn't tell——

Mr. Hubert. Just 1 minute. Before that, had you been told by Chief Stevenson when he instructed you to go down to the Commerce Street ramp and make arrangements for the handling of the armored truck——

Captain Jones. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Had you been told what route would be followed by the armored truck, or whatever vehicle?

Captain Jones. I had not been told that. I had heard some discussion. We have a large map of downtown, city of Dallas, that sits inside of the chief's office where the secretaries sit outside there, and one of the chiefs, I don't recall which one it was, was over there talking to someone else about a proposed route. I don't know what it was. I was not told.

Mr. Hubert. About what time was that?

Captain Jones. Oh, just prior to my going to the basement.

Mr. Hubert. In other words, just prior to 11 o'clock?

Captain Jones. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. They were discussing what route to take?

Captain Jones. Discussing route, and I don't know what arrangements was made.

Mr. Hubert. Let's go back into the basement where you left off at the end of the last sequence of questions. What time, roughly, would it have been when you had completed the duty of informing the police who were at the top of the Commerce Street entrance, and after you had informed Captain Talbert, and after you had gotten these three men——

66 Captain Jones. To the jail office there?

Mr. Hubert. What time was it, about?

Captain Jones. Well, it would take a minimum, I would say, of 5 minutes, to come up that. It would vary a little, and possibly more, depending on how fast the elevators came up and so forth.

Mr. Hubert. What did you do next then?

Captain Jones. Next thing I did—it was brought to my attention—we don't have a chart here so I will have——

Mr. Hubert. Here; I am going to mark it, "Dallas, Texas, March 24, 1963. Exhibit 5057, deposition of Capt. O. A. Jones." I am signing my name below it and I would like you to sign your name, here.

Captain Jones. All right, sir.

Mr. Hubert. And then will you use the exhibit as you see fit. Let me say to you that if you do refer to the exhibit please indicate in words where it is rather than pointing to it because it will not make sense later on.

Captain Jones. All right.

Mr. Hubert. Now, you were saying about the basement——

Captain Jones. When I got off the elevator, came out and left the elevator—all right, now, someone brought it to my attention that photographers and news media were in this part of the jail.

Mr. Hubert. In the jail?

Captain Jones. Jail office, outside.

Mr. Hubert. Outside of the desks?

Captain Jones. Outside the booking area, outside of the desk part of the jail office, and newsmen all out in here [indicating].

Mr. Hubert. When you say "here," you are pointing to the jail area?

Captain Jones. The corridor they have from the driveway from the basement jail office.

Mr. Hubert. On the east side of the swinging doors?

Captain Jones. On the east side of the swinging doors; yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Well, what did you do?

Captain Jones. I did not know the instructions given to the other officers down there prior to that. Nothing. So, immediately after seeing them—I saw Chief Batchelor and Chief Stevenson come out the swinging doors into the area, and Batchelor, being the highest ranking officer present, I pointed these people out to him, and——

Mr. Hubert. That is to say, in the jail office?

Captain Jones. In the jail office—were they supposed to be in there, and wouldn't it be better, if we could get those people out of the jail office, that it would be easier to watch the prisoner, and so, I don't know the exact words, I used, and they walked around and looked around, and then agreed that it would be. So, he and I, and at least one other officer, and I don't know who he was, but at least one more removed everyone out of the outer part of the jail office to just outside the swinging doors coming from the basement of the city hall going east.

Mr. Hubert. In the direction——

Captain Jones. In the direction of the driveway, and after getting them out there, not knowing the specific instructions that might have been given I said, "Chief Batchelor, would it be possible to have all this media be placed north of a line from the east corner of the jail office—all right. To move all the news media north of a line formed from the corner of the jail office from the corridor to across the ramp leading down from Main Street, to have all reporters north of that line, and that east of a line running off from this point across the driveway going south down to the exit from the basement parking area."

Mr. Hubert. All right, I am going to mark, as you have indicated on the map, by making a line starting—with the letter "A" on the corner formed by the intersection of the jail corridor and the basement ramp moving east to a point, "B", which I am marking——

Captain Jones. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Which is the east side of the ramp, and to another point marked "C".

67 Captain Jones. Well, now, actually, that line would extend all the way up here at that time. I meant to keep them back on those two—and in order——

Mr. Hubert. Am I correct in what your suggestion was that the news media should be kept north of the line marked A and B?

Captain Jones. That's right.

Mr. Hubert. And east of the line which runs "B to C," the point "C"?

Captain Jones. I didn't spell it out in those details, but that is the general idea, yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. "B" being the top of the Commerce Street ramp?

Captain Jones. For this reason, that we would have only two sides to watch. The rest of it would be more or less brick wall, and he agreed to that. The officers were stationed previously by other people along these lines, so, I went out there with some of these officers and I don't know how many, and we did get those people back.

Mr. Hubert. You got them back?

Captain Jones. We got them back fairly well at that time.

Mr. Hubert. Behind the lines?

Captain Jones. Behind these lines. In fact, there at one time it was completely clear.

Mr. Hubert. That would have been how long before Oswald came down?

Captain Jones. There again, I couldn't say. It was a matter of a few minutes.

Mr. Hubert. Can you tell me how many people were in the area that I am marking with a pen, "Area A"?

Captain Jones. I cannot tell you.

Mr. Hubert. Which is to say, the area north of the line "A", which you recently drew?

Captain Jones. Mr. Hubert, that would be truly a guess on my part along with knowledge obtained later and watching these TV films. Unconsciously, I would have to use that, for I don't have any idea on it.

Mr. Hubert. Were they standing shoulder to shoulder across the ramp?

Captain Jones. It wasn't when we first pushed them back there, it was possibly six or eight people, and possibly a few more than that including officers. I didn't stop to—told the officers, "Get them back," "get them back."

Mr. Hubert. Now, I am talking about an area called "B", can you give me any comment as to how many people roughly were in there?

Captain Jones. I couldn't guess. A few minutes later I can tell you there was quite a few people there, but——

Mr. Hubert. We'll get to there. Suppose we get to that. Now then, at the time Oswald was brought down, can you tell me how many people, roughly, were in Area "A" and Area "B"?

Captain Jones. No, sir; I find myself with figures there that—that I do not know whether they are right or not.

Mr. Hubert. All right.

Captain Jones. What I would want to say, that I did see several people, and I was up there personally, and I don't know exactly who they were, but I was attempting to push them back at that time. So, we can get to that any minute, but as far as giving you a figure or definite number or something, I couldn't do it with any degree of accuracy.

Mr. Hubert. All right, sir. Do you know of your own knowledge what procedures were being used for checking people in that whole downstairs or basement area, including the ramp and so forth?

Captain Jones. I know only one instance of—somewhere on the way down there that morning, whether it was up on the third floor or whether—I believe it was off of the elevator, just coming off of the elevator I was asked for an identification.

Mr. Hubert. You were in civilian clothes?

Captain Jones. I was in civilian clothes, yes, sir. I was asked, and that is the only time. I did not give the instruction. These officers were placed there prior to that, on the outside lines, and I don't know of my own knowledge.

Mr. Hubert. Well, then, proceed with the chronological sequence.

Captain Jones. The chronological sequence, after getting these people out of the jail office and out of the corridors and driveway to these two points of which68 we were speaking, then I was somewhere just south of this point marked "B" on the driveway when Chief Stevenson approached me and said, "There has been a change in plan. We are going to put two cars on the driveway and use them." Now, sometime in between there, and I can't tell you the exact time I am aware of a blur of a car going out the wrong way. I didn't see who was in it, and I didn't take too much awareness of it. I don't know just when it was.

Mr. Hubert. When you say, "going the wrong way——"

Captain Jones. I mean it came out of the basement area and headed up toward Main Street which ordinarily is the down ramp and you go out the ramp going up Commerce Street. There was a car out there, and in light of the investigation I know the circumstances now, but at that time I couldn't tell you about that one which did go out. Chief Stevenson said—came to me just before or after the car pulled out and said—said there was a change in plans, "We are going to put two cars in the driveway and transfer him in a car." Almost immediately some cars started up back in this area [indicating].

Mr. Hubert. When you say "this area," that is the basement?

Captain Jones. All right, the parking area of the basement, east of the driveway, and I am very sure one car that I saw pull up and go up the Commerce Street ramp from a ways, and I think I am aware of a second car pulling up behind. Now, the second car was having a little difficulty backing down into position to where it would—where it should go, so that when I stepped forward and became aware of quite a mass of people, I couldn't tell you how many in this area "B".

Mr. Hubert. And you were standing in the west side of the area?

Captain Jones. Yes, sir; the west side of area B, but the east side of the ramp. I was somewhere in there, and I attempted to push the people back, and I'm afraid I may have delayed the driver by pushing these people back, but along about that time someone shouts, "Here he comes."

Mr. Hubert. Would you just make a little circle as to where approximately you were?

Captain Jones. I think—I think—I think I was somewhere right in this area here [indicating].

Mr. Hubert. Just put a circle.

Captain Jones. Well, I don't know. That is as close as I can put it.

Mr. Hubert. You have drawn a circle, and I'm just going to put here, as you said, that it was somewhere around in here, around in the circle that you have drawn and I am marking that "approximate position of Capt. O. A. Jones at the time that Jones heard someone say 'Here he comes,'" is that correct, sir?

Captain Jones. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Now, actually, there was an automobile, as you say, backing up towards east, right?

Captain Jones. Well——

Mr. Hubert. But when they begin——

Captain Jones. It would have been backing north attempting to back north.

Mr. Hubert. Backing north, but with the front of the car facing south?

Captain Jones. Now then; from here is something that was a mystery to me for 2 weeks——

Mr. Hubert. You didn't answer the question.

Captain Jones. That's true. In the basement area, onto the ramp, heading out towards Commerce, and attempting to back toward north.

Mr. Hubert. Now, did you say there was something else?

Captain Jones. The police vehicle—car is ahead of me a little bit.

Mr. Hubert. It is what?

Captain Jones. Ahead of me, backing toward it, and I am probably in the way, and when they shout, "Here he comes," and the line up ahead of me—up toward the Commerce Street ramp, and I know of some officers, Chief Stevenson and Chief Batchelor, uniformed men up at the ramp, but I'm not sure about Captain Talbert. I'm sure, I believe he is ahead of me. Quite a few officers, however, someone yells, "Here he comes," there is a big furor, so then as I turned and looked back into this area "B", there are some people in there which—hands out, looking them, completely. I am looking east.

69 Mr. Hubert. You are looking away from the——

Captain Jones. From the approximate point.

Mr. Hubert. But you are also looking away from the point which Oswald exited?

Captain Jones. That's right. In watching the people, I was aware, in fact, in trying to get them out of the way.

Mr. Hubert. Would it be correct to say that the televisions were to your left?

Captain Jones. I think so. I mean, that is my impression, and I cannot—I couldn't swear. I can give you the impression to the best of my knowledge, but here is one thing that I know. I am in that area, I think the television is to my left. I turned to make sure the people stay out of way. Some of the previous instructions—can I go back?

Mr. Hubert. Yes.

Captain Jones. Some of the previous instructions that I had given to this officer here [indicating].

Mr. Hubert. Here?

Captain Jones. I'm sorry, just outside of the swinging doors leading into the basement of the city hall and just after clearing the jail office of the reporters, just keep the people out of the area. I told both the officers and the newsmen there, "When the prisoner comes down, you will not be allowed in this area. You will not be allowed to step forward to take pictures, or converse with the prisoner."

Mr. Hubert. You gave that instruction?

Captain Jones. I gave this instruction to them. I can't say to this officer, or to that officer.

Mr. Hubert. All right.

Captain Jones. Things had changed. First, I was under the impression that the armored car would back all the way down. I didn't know whether it could get all the way down, may do it at some intermediate point. If it comes all the way down there would be a line. That was the—that was where I wanted the officer here coming out of the jail office. The door of the vehicle that opens——

Mr. Hubert. I say, that was your idea?

Captain Jones. It was my idea, if the transporting vehicle backs all the way to the jail door.

Mr. Hubert. All right.

Captain Jones. If it comes partially down here and has to stop, which would be somewhere around this area here [indicating], the—just past—just at the point where the ramp starts to rise there is a beam, I believe, or low point in the ceiling there, that if it cannot get to that point these officers in the line here can form an L-shaped line around the prisoner, between them and the two sides where the news media had been told to stay and form a buffer in between to walk up there. Then the change—going to put two cars up there. There is no reason why that back car can't get all the way back to the jail office. The original plan would be that the line of officers would be from the jail door to the vehicle. Then they say, "Here he comes," and I am off up here, to the point that I indicated on the map. It is too late to get the people out of the way of the car and form the line. I am aware that Oswald is already coming because of the furor, so, I was trying to keep everybody out of the way and keep the way clear and I heard a shot.

Mr. Hubert. All right.

Captain Jones. And I place that as to why it is my last awareness of—the back car is ahead of, towards Commerce Street. The prisoner is coming from back here [indicating]. The car is backing like this [indicating]. I am looking at——

Mr. Hubert. You were looking at the automobile?

Captain Jones. At the automobile. They say, "Here he comes." I turned and these people back this way——

Mr. Hubert. Looking away from the direction?

Captain Jones. Into this basement parking area. I heard a shot, and I70 distinctly remember looking over my left shoulder and behind me to the scene of the scuffle.

Mr. Hubert. What did you see?

Captain Jones. Just mass confusion of people.

Mr. Hubert. All right; let me ask you this; had you at any time seen Ruby in the basement?

Captain Jones. No, sir.

Mr. Hubert. At the time of the shooting, did you see him?

Captain Jones. Not at the moment of the shooting. I was looking out into the basement area, parking area.

Mr. Hubert. After the shooting, did you see him?

Captain Jones. I did; after he was in custody and on his feet and just prior to them taking him into the jail office.

Mr. Hubert. Did you recognize him then?

Captain Jones. At that time, after having someone say it was Jack Ruby, then I did recognize him as Jack Ruby.

Mr. Hubert. Did you hear him say anything?

Captain Jones. No, sir; in fact, I wasn't that close to him.

Mr. Hubert. Did you have anything more to do with Ruby? Did you see him after that?

Captain Jones. Can I continue on the chronological thing there? I don't believe I did see him——

Mr. Hubert. Go ahead.

Captain Jones. It will be just about that same thing that after I turned and looking back, and also someone running out to the street, out at the extreme edges of the crowd and all, and that is when I hollered, "Block the exits." Or "bar the exits," or "don't let anybody out." Or—I couldn't tell you the words I used. I shouted over my shoulder and took a few running steps and shouting to the officers, for some of them was running down towards the scene that I yelled, "Block the exits, don't let anybody out." The two or three officers stopped. I couldn't tell you who they are, and then I turned and went back down to the scene or near the scene of the shooting, somebody says, it was Jack Ruby. In fact, it was said more than once. I heard the words—and they got the man standing up. I can see his head and I do recognize in my mind that it is Jack Ruby, but—about to get him in the jail office, shouted to that officer that way, whether he heard me or not, I don't know, but this man here Lieutenant Swain [indicating] was having a lot of difficulty. He was standing between point "B" on the driveway and this circle, approximately. Standing near the television cameras, and having difficulty keeping the television men from getting down in the driveway. So I stopped there and I assisted him in keeping those people back for a few minutes until we can get it cleared up. We get that more or less under control. The people are not trying to force their way in there, and I go into the jail office and see Oswald lying on the floor with a bullet hole in the left side, upper rib cage, it appears to me. His shirt has been pulled up. Whether, at that time Ruby was still in the jail office or had started upstairs, he—it seems to me possibly he was getting on the elevator, but I can't say for sure.

Mr. Hubert. Did you speak to Ruby at that time?

Captain Jones. I did not speak to Ruby.

Mr. Hubert. Did you see him?

Captain Jones. There—if that was him getting on the elevator, or if he was in there. After that, no, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Now, did you have anything to do with the clearing of the basement area at an earlier time?

Captain Jones. No, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Were you ever told as to what the original route would be from the police department to the county jail?

Captain Jones. I was never told by some officer coming to me and saying, this is the route. As I said, I heard some of the higher ranking officers talking of a possible route, but I was on a long-distance phone call at a desk nearby.

71 Mr. Hubert. So, you can say to me now that you really did not know the planned route?

Captain Jones. I was not told, and I do not know for sure what route they were going to take. I was aware of talk and some routing being planned.

Mr. Hubert. Can you tell us when you first heard that Ruby was supposed to have come down the Main Street ramp?

Captain Jones. I don't remember; I don't understand that question, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Let me put it this way; you have heard since that Ruby claims that he came down the Main Street ramp?

Captain Jones. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Do you remember when you first heard that?

Captain Jones. When I first heard that it was probably as a result of me being in charge for the Police Department Committee investigating the operational security about that transfer, and why it broke down, and that heading that committee, I am sure that was passed to me by some of the officers who had talked to him following his arrest.

Mr. Hubert. In other words, later, on the date of the 24th, or could it have been later than that?

Captain Jones. If I heard it prior to that, or heard rumors, the first official knowledge that I do have would have been even following Thanksgiving Day, for that is the time I was called back from the vacation and called from vacation to head that investigation, and it was subsequent to that that we had our investigation.

Mr. Hubert. So that if you heard anything about Ruby's version of how he got there, it would have been just passed on to you prior to going on your vacation? That is to say, you would have heard it from someone——

Captain Jones. I would have heard it—or put out on the radio or newspapers or some source like that. I could have read that.

Mr. Hubert. When did you go on vacation?

Captain Jones. I left here——

Mr. Hubert. That is Dallas?

Captain Jones. I left Dallas about 7:30 on Thanksgiving morning and got back in town at 8 o'clock that night. Drove to Shreveport, spent 4 or 5 hours with my father and ate lunch and came back. They called for me by the time I got there.

Mr. Hubert. And you were not on the special committee to investigate security until that time?

Captain Jones. When I returned, went to Chief Stevenson's house that night. He told me what they had in mind. I reported for that the morning following Thanksgiving, Friday morning.

Mr. Hubert. Now, Captain, is there anything else you want to state concerning the facts, in your deposition this morning?

Captain Jones. I can think of no other at this time, Mr. Hubert. I only wish there was some definite facts I could give you, and wish I could have been more definite in my answers, but I can think of no other right now. We have covered the situation pretty thoroughly.

Mr. Hubert. Now, have you been interviewed by any member of the Commission, other than myself?

Captain Jones. No, sir; I'm sure I haven't. I mean I would remember that.

Mr. Hubert. I mean, you have been interviewed by me prior to the commencement of this deposition, isn't that correct?

Captain Jones. We went over the details briefly a while ago; yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. And that was this morning?

Captain Jones. That was this morning; yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Now, can you tell me whether you observed any inconsistencies between the interview that you had with me this morning and your testimony in this deposition?

Captain Jones. I am not aware of any, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Have you provided any material information in that interview with me this morning which has not been talked about in the record of this deposition today?

72 Captain Jones. I don't know of any, sir.

Mr. Hubert. I think that is all, sir. Captain, if you have anything else to say——

Captain Jones. I will be happy—if there is anything that I can say that will shed some light on the truth, that's what I want, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Is there anything at all that you haven't said to me, or during the interview, or during any statements that you may have made to anybody which you would like to say now?

Captain Jones. I can think of none—I got—I told you the facts as I know them. The book that the Commission has, has a copy of—has the conclusions that were reached by our Committee, and those are just opinions based on our investigation of it and certainly we do have opinion on it but I have tried to stay away from my opinion, and—I will answer any questions in the future that you or any member of your Commission wants to know.

Mr. Hubert. Thank you very much. Let me say that if you should think of anything that has been omitted please feel free to call upon me or any member of the Commission staff to convey that information.

Once again I thank you personally and on behalf of the Commission.

Captain Jones. Thank you.

Mr. Hubert. Just a moment.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. Hubert. Let me say that I am recommencing this deposition about a minute after it finished. You are still under the same oath, of course, that you were before.

Captain Jones. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. I think that you did prepare, or it was prepared under your supervision, a chart, or diagram that showed the basement area, and by the use of circles and identifying code showed the positions of individuals.

Captain Jones. Yes, sir; that was prepared under my direction by an officer and places people who were not available to our office in this city, where they were placed by the statements, or statements of people who were nearby and said they were there. That was to the best of our ability to determine where they were at the time.

Mr. Hubert. As I recall it, that was quite a large chart, wasn't it?

Captain Jones. The original that they made.

Mr. Hubert. And it showed the positions of people like that by circles in which numbers were——

Captain Jones. Were numbered.

Mr. Hubert. And I think you used a color as well?

Captain Jones. Color to denote the occupation.

Mr. Hubert. Whether reserve officers——

Captain Jones. Designated from——

Mr. Hubert. Newspapermen.

Captain Jones. And those numbers applied to one other, then they applied to the number of the page in the book of the ones they took affidavits from.

Mr. Hubert. That is to say that these circles with the number in it designating the position of a particular individual, that same number was used to identify his report?

Captain Jones. That's right.

Mr. Hubert. In your security report?

Captain Jones. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. But note for the record: The report which Captain Jones is referring has been designated as Commission Report No. 81-A. This is a copy of that, isn't it?

Captain Jones. Yes, sir. That is it.

Mr. Hubert. All right. So, that the chart really is an estimation based upon the persons involved, what they said themselves, and also as to what other people said as to where they were.

Captain Jones. Yes, sir; we were limited as to the miles and distances of contacting some of the witnesses.

Mr. Hubert. Once again I thank you for appearing.

73

TESTIMONY OF LT. JACK REVILL

The testimony of Lt. Jack Revill was taken at 9:15 a.m., on March 31, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. Hubert. This is the deposition of Lt. Jack Revill [spelling] R-e-v-i-l-l-e.

Lieutenant Revill. No. No "e."

Mr. Hubert. No "e"? But two "l's."

Lieutenant Revill. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. My name is Leon Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel on the President's Commission. Under the provisions of Executive Order No. 11130, dated November 29, 1963, joint resolution of Congress No. 137, in the rules and procedures adopted by the Commission in conformance with the Executive order and joint resolution, I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you. I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald. In particular as to you, Lieutenant Revill, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other facts you may know about the general inquiry.

Now, Lieutenant Revill, you have appeared here today by virtue of a general request made to Chief Curry by J. Lee Rankin, who is the general counsel of the Commission. And under the rules of the Commission you are entitled to a 3-day written notice prior to the taking of the deposition, but the rules also provide that a witness may waive that 3-day written notice. Do you wish to do so? Do you wish to waive the 3-day——

Lieutenant Revill. I will waive it, yes.

Mr. Hubert. All right. Now, let's swear you.

If you will stand and raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Lieutenant Revill. I do.

Mr. Hubert. State your name, please.

Lieutenant Revill. My name is Jack Revill.

Mr. Hubert. Your age?

Lieutenant Revill. My age is 34 years of age.

Mr. Hubert. Your residence?

Lieutenant Revill. My residence is Dallas, Tex., 5617 Meadowick Lane.

Mr. Hubert. What is your occupation, sir?

Lieutenant Revill. I'm employed by the Dallas Police Department, lieutenant of the police.

Mr. Hubert. How long have you been so employed?

Lieutenant Revill. I have been employed by this police department for a period of 13 years.

Mr. Hubert. How did you start?

Lieutenant Revill. I was employed and assigned a patrolman. From there I was promoted to my present rank of lieutenant.

Mr. Hubert. When did you receive your present rank?

Lieutenant Revill. June 26, 1958.

Mr. Hubert. Now, what are your specific functions or duties or assignments within the department?

Lieutenant Revill. I am presently assigned as section supervisor of criminal intelligence, which is a part of the Special Service Bureau.

Mr. Hubert. How long have you been in that section?

Lieutenant Revill. Since February of 1959.

Mr. Hubert. Who is your immediate superior there?

Lieutenant Revill. My immediate supervisor is Capt. W. P. Gannaway.

Mr. Hubert. And then over him?

Lieutenant Revill. Chief Curry.

Mr. Hubert. In other words, you don't work for any other captain or supervisor?

74 Lieutenant Revill. No.

Mr. Hubert. You report to the Chief himself, I mean, you don't go through Stevenson or Batchelor?

Lieutenant Revill. Just directly to the Chief.

Mr. Hubert. Now, I would like you to state briefly, so that we get the full story, just what function you have had with respect to the investigation of the shooting of Oswald. First let me ask you: Were you present when Oswald was shot?

Lieutenant Revill. No, sir; I was not.

Mr. Hubert. Did you have anything to do with the transfer of Oswald?

Lieutenant Revill. No, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Were you on duty that day?

Lieutenant Revill. No, sir; later I was, but not the morning of the shooting.

Mr. Hubert. Not at the time of the shooting?

Lieutenant Revill. No.

Mr. Hubert. Now, then, go ahead and tell us about just what you did with reference to the investigation of this.

Lieutenant Revill. After Jack Ruby shot Lee Harvey Oswald I was assigned to an investigative committee to determine how and why Jack Ruby gained access to the basement of the city hall. This committee was comprised of myself, Lt. F. I. Cornwall, Lt. P. G. McCaghren, Lt. C. C. Wallace, Capt. O. A. Jones and Inspector Sawyer, and I do not recall his initials, but our function was to interview the people present in the basement on the morning of the shooting, and any other leads that might be developed from these interviews. We were to follow up on these.

Mr. Hubert. When did the official committee you have just mentioned come into existence and who put it in existence and who gave you your orders?

Lieutenant Revill. This committee was formed—created at the orders of Chief J. E. Curry. The exact date I do not recall. It was in December.

Mr. Hubert. All right. Go ahead.

Lieutenant Revill. As previously stated, our function was to interview these people.

Mr. Hubert. Had any other interviews of these people been made prior to the commencement of the functions of your committee?

Lieutenant Revill. Interviews, as such, no. Most of the officers had submitted written reports as to their specific duties on the morning of November 24, 1963.

Mr. Hubert. Do you know when that was done?

Lieutenant Revill. I presume that it was done on the date of the shooting and immediately thereafter.

Mr. Hubert. Isn't it a fact, as I recall it, that the individual reports made by every officer who was in the basement more or less followed a form in the sense that they were submitted a list of questions, at least they had to answer that much, and they could, perhaps, go further if they wanted to?

Lieutenant Revill. I believe the form letter you make reference to was given to the police reserve officers. These are the people that I devoted my efforts toward, the police reserve, but Lieutenant Cornwall and I, our duty was to interview these reserve policemen.

Lieutenant McCaghren, O. A. Jones and Wallace interviewed the sworn officers.

Mr. Hubert. By the way, where is Cornwall now?

Lieutenant Revill. He is in Louisville, Ky., at the Southern Police Institute. He left a week ago.

Mr. Hubert. And I understand that he is going to be there——

Lieutenant Revill. 3 months.

Mr. Hubert. 3 months?

Lieutenant Revill. Now, Lieutenant Cornwall and I were together throughout the existence of this committee.

Mr. Hubert. Are you familiar with the document entitled, "Investigation of the Operation and Security Involved on the Transfer of Lee Harvey Oswald, on November 24, 1963," which I now show you?

Lieutenant Revill. Yes, sir; I am.

75 Mr. Hubert. Let the record show that I am showing Lieutenant Revill, a document which has been identified as Commission's Report 81-A. Are you familiar with the letter of transmittal of this report dated December 16th, 1963, which is at the first part of the report, and runs for 11 pages, signed by Sawyer, Westbrook, and Jones?

Lieutenant Revill. Yes, sir; I am.

Mr. Hubert. I believe that this report, in its very last paragraph, says that you have read it and concur?

Lieutenant Revill. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Some of the reports in there are actually signed by you?

Lieutenant Revill. Yes, sir; that's correct.

Mr. Hubert. Do you know an officer, a reserve officer by the name of Mayo?

Lieutenant Revill. Mayo?

Mr. Hubert. Lamar Mayo. I think his civilian employment is in—he is an accountant or chief of credit department of Sears, Roebuck here.

Lieutenant Revill. This is R. L. Mayo?

Mr. Hubert. It could be R. L. Mayo.

Lieutenant Revill. I looked here and I found a copy of an interview of a reserve officer, Sgt. R. L. Mayo, signed by myself and Lieutenant Cornwall.

Mr. Hubert. Lamar W.?

Lieutenant Revill. We do have an L. W. Mayo. It is possible that we made an error on this up here, the girl——

Mr. Hubert. It is L. W. Mayo, I think.

Lieutenant Revill. It will be the same. I was looking at his report, and what we had put in our report about his position or duty assignment and what happened here, they——

Mr. Hubert. When you say "here," you are talking about——

Lieutenant Revill. In the report. It is page 70.

Mr. Hubert. Page 70 of Commission's Document 81-A.

Lieutenant Revill. What happened, the secretary in typing the report put the wrong initial. She placed R. L. Mayo, and it should read L. W. Mayo.

Mr. Hubert. I noticed that you are talking about the part of the letter which starts off "Re: interview of Reserve Officer, Sgt. R. L. Mayo, 826," that being a heading on the letter of December 3, 1963, but the next document also numbered page 70, in Commission's Document 81-A, shows that the initial report dated November 26, addressed to Chief Curry is signed, "L. W. Mayo," and it is your thought—that it is an error in the first document which is entitled, "Interview of Reserve Officer, Sgt. R. L. Mayo," and it should have been, "L. W. Mayo.?"

Lieutenant Revill. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. It is your opinion that that is the same person?

Lieutenant Revill. Yes, sir; this is my opinion.

Mr. Hubert. I understand that Sergeant Mayo, when he was interviewed by you stated that he had been approached by some individual who was either a minister or posing to be a minister in any case, who was trying to get into the jail through the Commerce Street entrance on November 24, prior to the shooting, stating that he wanted to see Oswald, and that you had told him, well, that wasn't pertinent to your inquiry, and all I want to do is ask you what—if it is true, and just what comment do you have to make on it?

Lieutenant Revill. I don't recall making that, because it would have been pertinent to my inquiry, because in the reports I make reference to an individual who was on the street trying to get in who was wearing a Whitehouse—a streamer with the words, "Whitehouse Press." This, to me, was pertinent, and this minister—of course, the minister wanted to see Oswald prior to the shooting.

Mr. Hubert. Yes. In other words, your statement is that you do not recollect that Mayo made such a statement to you?

Lieutenant Revill. No, sir; he might have made such a statement, but——

Mr. Hubert. If he did, your thought would be you would have put it in?

Lieutenant Revill. Yes, sir; because to me it would have been pertinent. Anything.

Mr. Hubert. Do you recall his statement to you, Mayo to you, that after the76 shooting when Mayo was stationed in the Main Street ramp that there was a man who came to Mayo, I think, identified himself as Ruby's roommate, and was trying to get in to see Ruby, that being after the shooting. Do you recall that Mayo reported that during the course of the interview?

Lieutenant Revill. It seems like I do recall Mayo saying something like that, and I believe he referred this man to Lieutenant Gilmore of the Special Service Bureau. I believe he told me that, but I don't see it here and I don't know why we omitted that, but I think we—I do recall him making such a statement. George Senator, I believe he would have been the individual.

Mr. Hubert. Yes. He described him as having a slight limp, too, I think he said.

Lieutenant Revill. This, I don't know.

Mr. Hubert. But, you do not recall right now why it was not made a part of the interview?

Lieutenant Revill. Just an oversight on my part. It should have been listed here.

Mr. Hubert. There is one other thing that Mayo states that he told you, which apparently is not in the report, that is about a man and a woman who had been hanging around the Main Street entrance apparently after the shooting. Apparently they were tourists from Springfield, Ill., and they wanted to take some pictures and stated that to you that——

Lieutenant Revill. No, sir; he did not state this to me.

Mr. Hubert. As to that episode, then, you do not recall that that was stated to you?

Lieutenant Revill. I would say that he did not relate this to me.

Mr. Hubert. Well, as I see the three episodes then, as to the first one regarding the minister, your thought is that he may have stated to you, but you do not remember?

Lieutenant Revill. I don't recall.

Mr. Hubert. Nor do you recall why he omitted it from your report?

Lieutenant Revill. This might have happened. It was subsequent to this I found a preacher who wanted to talk to Oswald, and he went to Chief Batchelor's office, and——

Mr. Hubert. When subsequent to what?

Lieutenant Revill. Subsequent to the shooting.

Mr. Hubert. Oh, I see.

Lieutenant Revill. No, prior to the shooting, and subsequently—he was probably talking to—let's see, he arrived at city hall at 9:30. This preacher's name is Ray Rushing. He is an evangelist, Radio Evangelist.

Mr. Hubert. And that was reported and the man was interviewed?

Lieutenant Revill. It was not reported because I myself found this man.

Mr. Hubert. But——

Lieutenant Revill. There is no report on it, because it is in—it had nothing to do with the shooting. He had gone to Sheriff Decker's office, and Decker referred him to the city thinking that Oswald had not been transferred, so, he came to the city hall and went to the third floor, and—by the way, he rode up on the elevator with Jack Ruby, now——

Mr. Hubert. This Rushing?

Lieutenant Revill. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Rode to the third floor——

Lieutenant Revill. Now, he says this.

Mr. Hubert. Oh, he says this.

Lieutenant Revill. Yes, for the past 7 weeks I have been assigned to the district attorney's office, the prosecution of Ruby, running down leads and interviewing witnesses and this preacher was one of the people that we located, and he related this story to me, that he rode up on the elevator with Jack Ruby on the morning of November 24. Mr. Wade did not use this man. He didn't need the testimony, because he had placed Ruby there the morning of the shooting.

Mr. Hubert. In other words, Rushing says that he rode up with Ruby on the morning of the 24th, prior to the shooting?

Lieutenant Revill. Yes, sir.

77 Mr. Hubert. What was his name?

Lieutenant Revill. Ray Rushing.

Mr. Hubert. You don't know how we could reach him?

Lieutenant Revill. No; he lives in Richardson, Tex.—correction, please—Plano, Tex.

Mr. Hubert. How do you spell that?

Lieutenant Revill. P-l-a-n-o, north of Richardson, and at this time he does not have a phone.

Mr. Hubert. Did you make a report on the interview with him?

Lieutenant Revill. No, sir; I did not. This was an interview conducted by the—at the district attorney's office in the presence of Assistant District Attorney Alexander.

Mr. Hubert. Did Rushing say what time that was?

Lieutenant Revill. 9:30. He was sure of the time, because he had let his wife and family out at the First Baptist Church, and traveled directly to the city hall.

Mr. Hubert. Was he sure it was Sunday the 24th?

Lieutenant Revill. Yes, sir; he had gone there to speak to Oswald.

Mr. Hubert. How did he recognize Ruby? Did he say?

Lieutenant Revill. He said he recognized him from the newspaper article that appeared that day, and later days.

Mr. Hubert. Did he say whether he had any conversation with him?

Lieutenant Revill. He talked about the weather. I asked him.

Mr. Hubert. Did he say whether he was—whether he saw Ruby there afterwards?

Lieutenant Revill. He said he turned to the right and—went up to the third floor and after arriving on the third floor, he turned to the right and went to the administrative office and talked to Chief Assistant Batchelor.

Mr. Hubert. But, anyhow, after you interviewed this man Rushing, you turned over the information concerning your interview to Assistant District Attorney Alexander?

Lieutenant Revill. What I did is, I interviewed Mr. Rushing one night and asked him if he could come to the district attorney's office and relate this to Mr. Wade. Possibility that the district attorney might use him as a witness, and Alexander was of the opinion that the man might be mistaken. That he saw this as a means of getting publicity. Of course, I disagree with that thinking. I think that the man is truthful in that he is reporting what he thinks he saw.

Mr. Hubert. When you interviewed him did he give you what you considered a fairly accurate description of Ruby?

Lieutenant Revill. Yes. Of course, so many photographs had appeared in the newspapers and it would be easy for someone to——

Mr. Hubert. Where did you interview him?

Lieutenant Revill. At the district attorney's office.

Mr. Hubert. Did he give you a specific address in Plano?

Lieutenant Revill. It is out in the country. It is a box number. I can't——

Mr. Hubert. What is he? A Baptist minister?

Lieutenant Revill. He is, yes; I guess he would be. He attends the First Baptist Church. He is one of these Evangelist—that his calling is to dry up the liquor industry, throughout the nation, so they tell me.

Mr. Hubert. Did he state to you what his purpose was in seeing Oswald?

Lieutenant Revill. Yes, he felt that Oswald needed spiritual guidance at that time. He was in trouble and he felt like he could possibly help him.

Mr. Hubert. Did he say whether he got to see Oswald?

Lieutenant Revill. He did not get to see him.

Mr. Hubert. Did he say how he got into this building?

Lieutenant Revill. He walked into the building.

Mr. Hubert. Did he have any difficulty getting in?

Lieutenant Revill. Not at that time, no.

Mr. Hubert. Did he state whether he was stopped and asked for identification by anyone?

Lieutenant Revill. No, sir; I don't believe he was. At that time, of course,78 I don't know for sure—I don't know that they were—had the building secured.

Mr. Hubert. Now, as to the second thing that Mayo told you. To wit, about Ruby's roommate who may or may not be Senator, you do recall that he said that, but you don't know why it was left out of the——

Lieutenant Revill. It was an oversight. It seems as though I do recall him telling me something about that, and that he referred this man to Lieutenant Gilmore, who was assigned to the special service section.

Mr. Hubert. The third thing, that man and wife from Springfield, Ill., you have no recollection of that?

Lieutenant Revill. No, sir; no recollection whatsoever.

Mr. Hubert. Do you recall interviewing Pat Dean?

Lieutenant Revill. Sergeant Dean? No, sir; I did not interview Sergeant Dean.

Mr. Hubert. Or Archer?

Lieutenant Revill. No, sir; these interviews were conducted by Lieutenant McCaghren and Wallace. Now, Dean, being a uniformed officer, he might have been interviewed by Captain Westbrook.

Mr. Hubert. Your function was to find out how Ruby got into the——

Lieutenant Revill. Basement. This basement; yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. When did you first learn of Ruby's version that he came in the Main Street entrance?

Lieutenant Revill. When I first learned it? I read it in the newspaper.

Mr. Hubert. You didn't know it on the 24th?

Lieutenant Revill. No, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Of course, actually, you hadn't been assigned the job——

Lieutenant Revill. No, sir; no, sir. What happened, my people were—the people, the detectives assigned to my unit and myself were assigned to the Trade Mart, where Mr. Kennedy was to speak. Upon hearing of the shooting, three of us, or four of us, went to the Texas School Book Depository and started a systematical search and there were many, many officers present at that time. I made a report to Chief Lumpkin naming all of the officers that I could recall being there. This was on a Friday. The following Saturday, the next day, we were to locate witnesses. People who were employed at the School Book Depository, get them and bring them to Captain Fritz' office. This took all day. Saturday night we terminated and went home approximately 8 o'clock. The next morning none of us were assigned to duty. Now, by that I mean the intelligence unit. I was at home and I saw the shooting on television and from there I got a phone call to report to Mayor Cabell's home, because there had been a threat on his life. I went to Washington with Mr. Cabell that night and got back the next day.

Mr. Hubert. You haven't, then, spoken to Dean at all about how Ruby got into the basement or how Ruby, says he got into the basement?

Lieutenant Revill. I am sure I have discussed it with him, but as far as a formal interview; no.

Mr. Hubert. But, in any case, your first knowledge didn't come from any particular individual, but from the newspaper?

Lieutenant Revill. Newspaper.

Mr. Hubert. In your discussion with Dean, do you recall whether he stated to you how he found out about Ruby's alleged entry through the Main Street ramp?

Lieutenant Revill. No, sir; I do not.

Mr. Hubert. Do you know the reserve officer by the name of Holly?

Lieutenant Revill. Holly? Yes, sir; I talked to Mr. Holly.

Mr. Hubert. Do you recall the nature of the conversation?

Lieutenant Revill. Yes, sir; I do.

Mr. Hubert. Would you tell us about it, please?

Lieutenant Revill. If I may find the report.

Mr. Hubert. There is an index there.

Lieutenant Revill. Yes; and they are filed alphabetically. Ordinarily I can find it probably easier this way. Holly, yes, Holly was interviewed and he stated that he had been assigned to a traffic corner and after the shooting occurred he was reassigned to Parkland Hospital, and that while there some79 unknown police reservist told him that he had observed, or admitted Ruby into the basement of the city hall, and that Ruby had presented press credentials.

Mr. Hubert. Well——

Lieutenant Revill. Well, what we did, we have photographs of all of the police reserve, and Holly could not identify anyone as being this officer, or reserve officer.

Mr. Hubert. Where did this take place, that is to say, where was Holly shown these pictures?

Lieutenant Revill. In the city hall, in the special services bureau.

Mr. Hubert. Did you say that when Holly was interviewed he was interviewed by Captain Solomon?

Lieutenant Revill. Well, Holly was interviewed by Captain Solomon, and both Lieutenant Cornwall and I.

Mr. Hubert. All at once?

Lieutenant Revill. No; see what happened, Holly came to us with his story. Well, we jumped on it because there might be something to it, so I called Captain Solomon, who has access to all of the records and photographs of the reserve officers, and he brought them to the special services bureau in the city hall. Holly was unable to identify this officer. We talked to Captain Arnett, who is a reserve captain, and both Solomon and Arnett were of the opinion that Holly might be fabricating this thing.

Mr. Hubert. Now; what did Holly say——

Lieutenant Revill. Holly——

Mr. Hubert. That this reserve officer told him?

Lieutenant Revill. That he had seen Ruby in the basement of the city hall, and that Ruby had presented press credentials to someone in the basement of the city hall. We were never able to locate this reserve officer.

Mr. Hubert. Did Holly tell you that a reserve officer, possibly the same one, possibly another, had told him that he had seen Ruby coming down the ramp, Main Street ramp, and just about a minute before the shooting?

Lieutenant Revill. No, sir; Holly did not say that to me. I found a reserve officer who was present in the basement of the city hall who saw some individual coming down the ramp, the Main Street ramp.

He could not identify this person as being Ruby. As you said, approximately a minute or minute and a half after the shooting—I mean, prior to the shooting. Have you got a——

Mr. Hubert. I don't want to suggest anything to you, but to assist you, tell me if you don't recognize the name, Officer Newman?

Lieutenant Revill. I believe that it is Newman. I can show you. You—he was assigned——

Mr. Hubert. Did you interview Newman?

Lieutenant Revill. Yes; I did.

Mr. Hubert. Newman said that he had not recognized Jack Ruby?

Lieutenant Revill. Yes; he did not recognize the man coming down the ramp, and the distance involved, I can readily see why he could not identify him.

Mr. Hubert. Did Newman mention to you in your interview that as a matter of fact, there were two people he saw in the basement area. One, a man coming down the ramp about a minute before the shooting, and another person who jumped the rail down there from the parking area into the ramp on the Main Street side, but that he could not identify either?

Lieutenant Revill. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. And that, as to the man jumping the rail he didn't know whether it was before the shooting or after.

Lieutenant Revill. The man that he is making reference to jumping over the rail was an electrician, and this was prior to the shooting.

Mr. Hubert. Was this Chabot? [Spelling] C-h-a-b-o-t?

Lieutenant Revill. Tommy Chabot, I believe he is a mechanic.

Mr. Hubert. Did he, Newman, identify him as such?

Lieutenant Revill. Newman did not identify him as such, nor did he identify the man running down the ramp.

Mr. Hubert. Well, I can understand then that when he saw the man running80 down the ramp he did not know who that was, but did he tell you later he identified that man as being Ruby by comparing him to the pictures?

Lieutenant Revill. No, sir; he did not.

Mr. Hubert. Now, when Holly was asked to pick out the reserve officer who had told him what you said he did in the hospital, was Captain Solomon present?

Lieutenant Revill. Yes; Solomon was present and had brought these photographs to special services bureau, and he was unable to identify any of these people.

Mr. Hubert. He didn't pick out any picture at all?

Lieutenant Revill. No, sir.

Mr. Hubert. You know, of your own knowledge, whether or not Solomon had another interview with this man?

Lieutenant Revill. No, sir; I do not.

Mr. Hubert. Have you ever heard that Holly actually did pick out a picture in an interview with Solomon and state that he thought that was the reserve officer who had spoken to him. Now, apparently that didn't happen when you were present?

Lieutenant Revill. No, sir; I don't recall this happening in my presence. I do recall, I believe, Holly thinking that a specific officer was the individual that—we interviewed this officer and he was not the one, and I couldn't tell you his name, because we talked to so many of them.

Mr. Hubert. Then Holly did say that he thought that this might be the individual, and he picked out then a particular picture?

Lieutenant Revill. As I recall, he picked out a picture, and as it turned out, the man that he picked out wasn't even present at the basement of the city hall. He had been fishing, was on a fishing trip, and I talked to this reserve officer, I couldn't tell you his name. There were two of them that came from Arlington directly to the hospital.

Mr. Hubert. But, in any case, it wasn't Newman?

Lieutenant Revill. No, sir; he was not.

Mr. Hubert. Newman is a reserve officer?

Lieutenant Revill. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. So, the picture Holly picked out as being possibly the man who told him about seeing someone coming through with a pass or something like that sort was not Newman?

Lieutenant Revill. Right.

Mr. Hubert. That reserve officer was interviewed?

Lieutenant Revill. Yes, sir; he was interviewed and the report is in here, if I could find it.

Mr. Hubert. And your recollection of the interview was that he wasn't even in the place at all?

Lieutenant Revill. He had been fishing.

Mr. Hubert. You have no recollection at all of Holly picking out Newman's picture?

Lieutenant Revill. No, sir; he did not pick out Newman's picture.

Mr. Hubert. That is to say, in your——

Lieutenant Revill. In my presence.

Mr. Hubert. Nor, have you heard that he picked out Newman's picture when you were not there?

Lieutenant Revill. No, sir; I have not heard this.

Mr. Hubert. I think the report indicates that you interviewed Ruby?

Lieutenant Revill. Yes, sir; on two occasions.

Mr. Hubert. What was the first one?

Lieutenant Revill. The first occasion, the date would have been on the Sunday following the shooting.

Mr. Hubert. When? One week later?

Lieutenant Revill. One week later, yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. I can show you a calendar of——

Lieutenant Revill. I can give you the date.

Mr. Hubert. Can you?

Lieutenant Revill. Yes, sir.

81 Mr. Hubert. Would you do so?

Lieutenant Revill. Would have been on December the 1st in the county jail. Present at that interview was Lieutenant Cornwall, a jailer, whose name I do not recall. This man was present at both interviews, at Mr. Decker's request.

Mr. Hubert. The jailer was?

Lieutenant Revill. The jailer; yes, sir. And this proposed interview took place just outside the cell where Ruby was confined in, I believe it would be the chief jailer's office.

Mr. Hubert. Will you tell us about what happened?

Lieutenant Revill. Yes, sir; Lieutenant Cornwall and I, after interviewing all these people, trying to determine how Ruby got into the basement, decided that the best thing was to talk to Ruby himself, so, we finally got clearance to go talk to him and we did, and——

Mr. Hubert. Now, by that time you had already heard from the press that he had said that he had come through the Main Street ramp?

Lieutenant Revill. Something to the effect that, "You may not believe me, but I walked down the ramp." Anyway at the interview, Ruby was there with Cornwall and I, and this unknown jailer, and he refused to disclose how he gained access into the basement stating that this is a part of his defense, so, we then had Sheriff Decker call Tom Howard, who was representing Ruby at that time as a legal counsel. Mr. Howard came to the jail and was present throughout the interview. Ruby was very precise as to his activities on Friday, the date of the shooting of President Kennedy. He refused to discuss with us any of his activities on Saturday, November 23 or November 24, the day of the shooting.

Mr. Hubert. Did he give you any reason?

Lieutenant Revill. This was part of his defense, so he stated. The interview approximately took 45 minutes. It was a lot of——

Mr. Hubert. Did you ask him specifically whether the story in the press, that he had come through the Main Street entrance, was correct or not correct?

Lieutenant Revill. Yes, sir; I asked him this, and he refused to discuss it. He said that he did not want to get anyone in trouble.

Mr. Hubert. Did you pursue that?

Lieutenant Revill. Yes; I did. I was assigned to this committee to find out what happened and I really wasn't concerned who we got in trouble, because if someone was wrong, then they suffer the consequences and I asked him about officers by name who were present in the basement, if they had seen him or talked to him, and he wouldn't discuss it. Knowing Jack Ruby, Jack Ruby is the type of individual that can't be anywhere for a period of time without talking to someone.

Mr. Hubert. Did you mention to him specifically Roy Vaughn's name?

Lieutenant Revill. Yes, sir; the officer——

Mr. Hubert. At the Main Street exit?

Lieutenant Revill. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. Hubert. He made no comment?

Lieutenant Revill. No, sir; he wouldn't discuss this. I asked him about Detective Harrison. The films showed that Ruby was standing at Harrison's shoulder.

Mr. Hubert. What did he say about that?

Lieutenant Revill. He became very upset.

Mr. Hubert. Did—describe how he was upset?

Lieutenant Revill. This is when he said—well, he got real angry at me and cussed me and told me——

Mr. Hubert. Ruby did?

Lieutenant Revill. Oh, yes; told me I was a hatchet man and trying to get the man's job.

Mr. Hubert. When he said you were trying to get the man's job, that is Harrison's job?

Lieutenant Revill. He meant Harrison's job, so, what I did, was later got it approved to put Harrison on the polygraph to determine if he had seen Ruby prior to the shooting and if he had talked to Ruby. Well, the polygraph examination showed that Harrison had no knowledge of Ruby being present.

82 Mr. Hubert. Did you interview Harrison, too?

Lieutenant Revill. Yes; I did. Showed him the film.

Mr. Hubert. Did you sort of put him through any cross examination?

Lieutenant Revill. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. What is your opinion of his veracity? Do you think he is telling the truth?

Lieutenant Revill. If you believe a polygraph examination; he is.

Mr. Hubert. I was interested in your impression.

Lieutenant Revill. Yes, sir; and if this is being recorded, then I'd rather not state an opinion as to his truth and veracity.

Mr. Hubert. I understand. Did you mention on that first occasion any other names to Ruby? I think you have mentioned already, Vaughn and——

Lieutenant Revill. I mentioned the officers who were in the positions to have seen Ruby.

Mr. Hubert. Did you mention to him the name of Daniels, ex-police officer?

Lieutenant Revill. I may have. I might have asked him if he knew Daniels.

Mr. Hubert. But, in any case, that is all of your questions. He refused to discuss and at this time he—his lawyer wasn't present?

Lieutenant Revill. On the second interview, which would have occurred on December the——

Mr. Hubert. Before you leave that, I want to get a little bit more information concerning this, I think you said, "Fit of anger," when he cursed you and told you you were a hatchet man.

Lieutenant Revill. What upset him——

Mr. Hubert. Did he say any other things?

Lieutenant Revill. What upset him was that I was involved in this thing. When I walked in he said something to the effect, "Well, the Intelligence people are involved in it now. They think I am a Communist." I don't know what gave him that idea, but I have known Jack Ruby since 1953. I have never been a friend with him. I knew him enough to talk to him. Lieutenant Cornwall took the position of being his friend, and I was the foe, and that is the way we conducted our interview. We were unable to get any information from him.

Mr. Hubert. But the mention of Harrison, apparently is the thing that set——

Lieutenant Revill. Set him off, and I have never been satisfied, personally, with Harrison's statement. Of course, this is my personal opinion.

Mr. Hubert. I think that kind of answers the other question.

Lieutenant Revill. Yes; it does. They were reluctant—I say, "They," the other members of the committee were reluctant to have him submitted to a polygraph examination, but I thought that this was one way of determining if he was truthful or not.

Mr. Hubert. It was as a result of your insistence that he was put under one?

Lieutenant Revill. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. All right, perhaps we can go to the second interview. On what date was that?

Lieutenant Revill. This would have occurred on the 3d of December.

Mr. Hubert. Tuesday?

Lieutenant Revill. On a Tuesday, yes, sir. The afternoon of December 3. What we had been attempting to do was to put Jack Ruby on a polygraph machine, and his lawyer, Tom Howard, had been approached during the first interview as to doing this. He stated that there were other lawyers coming into the case and that he would have to have their permission before agreeing to let Jack take this examination.

On Monday we communicated with Tom by telephone and he kept hedging with us, and telling us he had not heard from the other lawyers. By "Tom," I mean Tom Howard, the lawyer. On Tuesday, we discussed it again with him and he stated that he was still trying to work this thing out. So, Cornwall and I again decided—that we would go directly to Jack Ruby. He was the person involved, and we would give him the opportunity to submit to the examination. If he wanted to, fine. If he doesn't want to then it's also fine.83 So, we went to Jack on the 2d—on the 3d of December and gave him the opportunity to take the polygraph.

Mr. Hubert. That is to say, you asked him?

Lieutenant Revill. Asked him, yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Was his lawyer present then?

Lieutenant Revill. Not in the beginning. We later called Tom Howard to the interview so that he could be present, and they refused to have Jack submitted.

Mr. Hubert. At first when you asked Jack about going on the polygraph machine prior to Tom Howard's being present, what did he say?

Lieutenant Revill. He said—during the second interview he said that his lawyer would have to——

Mr. Hubert. All right, then his lawyer came and——

Lieutenant Revill. They declined.

Mr. Hubert. Did you talk about the basement?

Lieutenant Revill. Tried to.

Mr. Hubert. What was the result of that?

Lieutenant Revill. And again, this was part of their defense, and——

Mr. Hubert. Did he show any anger at you then?

Lieutenant Revill. Yes; I think it was a carryover from the first interview, but this was a strategy that we used. Let him be angry with me, thinking maybe that he might tell us something, but he never did.

Mr. Hubert. Did you mention Harrison's name on the second interview?

Lieutenant Revill. I possibly did, but at this time he was more composed, and there was no—I don't recall any outbursts.

Mr. Hubert. I gather that the second interview was not fruitful, in that nothing——

Lieutenant Revill. No, sir.

Mr. Hubert. No information was gathered?

Lieutenant Revill. Neither interview was fruitful, other than from his outburst. It led me to believe that possibly he had talked to some officer, or had been seen by some officer prior to the shooting, but I was never able to confirm this.

Mr. Hubert. At the time you saw Ruby, I take it you had not interviewed this man, Ray Rushing?

Lieutenant Revill. No, sir.

Mr. Hubert. And didn't know anything about it?

Lieutenant Revill. No, sir.

Mr. Hubert. By the way, how did you find out about it?

Lieutenant Revill. He called me.

Mr. Hubert. Ray Rushing called you?

Lieutenant Revill. Yes; I had assisted him, oh, approximately a year ago on a problem he was having with one of his preachers. He has got several preachers in his employment, and it was—involved a theft, and I was able to assist him, and he called me.

Mr. Hubert. What date, about?

Lieutenant Revill. When he called me?

Mr. Hubert. Yes.

Lieutenant Revill. It was during the trial. During the picking of the jurors. The specific date, I do not recall.

Mr. Hubert. Anyhow, he came in and you interviewed him and made a verbal report to Alexander.

Lieutenant Revill. Oh, Alexander was present at the interview.

Mr. Hubert. Do you know whether the result of that interview was passed to the FBI or to any Government agencies?

Lieutenant Revill. No, sir; it was not.

Mr. Hubert. Nor is there a written report?

Lieutenant Revill. No, sir; no written report. Rushing was reluctant to take the stand.

Mr. Hubert. Did he say why?

Lieutenant Revill. Yes, he did. Because of his fight with the liquor industry they would use this to fight him with. Any publicity they might get of a84 derogatory nature would hurt him. We tried to emphasize the point that this would not be derogatory publicity.

Mr. Hubert. Did you point out to him that the position was somewhat inconsistent with the fact that he was a volunteer?

Lieutenant Revill. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. What did he say?

Lieutenant Revill. He decided he would testify if his testimony was needed.

Mr. Hubert. What was his statement as to his original motivation for reporting this matter, that is to say, that he had seen Ruby?

Lieutenant Revill. I don't believe he ever said what motivated him to report this incident.

Mr. Hubert. Was he ever asked, that you know of, why he had delayed so long?

Lieutenant Revill. Yes, sir; I asked him that myself.

Mr. Hubert. What did he say?

Lieutenant Revill. Well, he used the same story, that he did not want to become involved in this thing because of his fight or his crusade to dry up the liquor industry.

Mr. Hubert. But, how did he then explain the fact that he had volunteered?

Lieutenant Revill. He didn't explain it. Now, this is an assumption on my part. I believe this is why Mr. Alexander was reluctant to use him, because Mr. Rushing is the type that there is a Communist under each tree or each rock.

Mr. Hubert. How old a man is Rushing?

Lieutenant Revill. Late forty's, or early fifty's.

Mr. Hubert. Has he been in the Dallas area long?

Lieutenant Revill. No, sir; he had just recently moved to Dallas from South Dakota. He tells me he is a personal friend of Senator Mundt and the Governor of South Dakota and other influential people, which may or may not be true.

Mr. Hubert. Did you check to see whether he actually does have a church?

Lieutenant Revill. Yes, sir; he is on the radio throughout the Nation.

Mr. Hubert. Now, you showed me prior to the commencement of this deposition, a large folder which you identified as—which is identified from the title page of the jacket cover "File No. INT—"

Lieutenant Revill. That's intelligence.

Mr. Hubert. "Intelligence 25—1 through INT—intelligence 25—subject Jack Ruby, DPD," which, I believe means Dallas Police Department. "36398," which is the jacket, I suppose, and folder of the special services bureau?

Lieutenant Revill. Well, yes.

Mr. Hubert. And you also advise me that most of this information, or most of this folder, all except actually the first five pages are reports that have been built up after the shooting?

Lieutenant Revill. Yes, sir; this is correct.

Mr. Hubert. You state to me also, I think, that this jacket has been made available to the Secret Service?

Lieutenant Revill. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Did they make copies of it? Do you know?

Lieutenant Revill. They made copies of much of this information.

Mr. Hubert. You dealt with Mr. Sorrels?

Lieutenant Revill. Not directly with Mr. Sorrels himself. Some of his agents. If I might use that, I might be able to explain it more fully. If it is necessary for the record——

Mr. Hubert. Well, I was considering making it a part of the record, but I don't want, obviously, to take it away from you and I don't have authority at the present time to subpena it.

Lieutenant Revill. I will make you copies of anything you want.

Mr. Hubert. That is what I wanted to get at. If copies have been made already and turned over to the Secret Service, that would be unnecessary.

Lieutenant Revill. For example, here was toll calls, telephone long-distance calls placed from the telephone at the Carousel at 1312½ Commerce. The Ruby residence, at 223 South Ewing, and also the Vegas Club at 3508 Oak Lawn, and also his sister's residence, Eva Grant's.

85 Mr. Hubert. As of what date?

Lieutenant Revill. These go back to September 24, 1963, through—correction on that. Some of them go back to May of 1963.

Mr. Hubert. Well, let's deal with it this way, suppose I check to see how much of this the Secret Service, or the FBI has?

Lieutenant Revill. The FBI has this, because I gave it to them personally.

Mr. Hubert. The whole thing?

Lieutenant Revill. Of this particular——

Mr. Hubert. Analyses of phone calls?

Lieutenant Revill. The phone calls.

Mr. Hubert. Well, dealing with the whole report, suppose we do it this way, if we find that there is not, in possession of one of the Federal agencies, the entire record, I may ask you at a later time to make it available for photostating, or if you could do it——

Lieutenant Revill. We can do it. Anything we can do.

Mr. Hubert. And then what we would do is that you could execute an affidavit instead of having to come and make a deposition to the effect that the attached report is true, is a true and correct copy of the originals. I think that is possibly the best way.

Lieutenant Revill. Any way that it is the easiest for you.

Mr. Hubert. All right, do you have any other things that you would like to say?

Lieutenant Revill. No, sir; I can't think of a thing.

Mr. Hubert. All right, now——

Lieutenant Revill. Wish there was something I could do to shed some light on it.

Mr. Hubert. Was it a part of your function to check out all rumors concerning connections between Ruby and Oswald?

Lieutenant Revill. Yes, sir; it was.

Mr. Hubert. Or between Ruby and other groups from the left, right, and middle of the road, or whatnot?

Lieutenant Revill. Yes; this was our function.

Mr. Hubert. Did you, in fact, check out those that came to your attention?

Lieutenant Revill. All that came to our attention, yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Is there a special report on that checkout?

Lieutenant Revill. There are many reports. Each lead that came in as a possible connection, investigation was conducted and a report submitted concerning that specific rumor.

Mr. Hubert. In other words, every rumor was investigated and an individual report made on it, but they are not collected together anyplace?

Lieutenant Revill. No, sir; no synopsis.

Mr. Hubert. They are not part of this document 81-A? The investigation that you identified earlier?

Lieutenant Revill. No, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Do you think there are copies of these various reports that could be made available to us?

Lieutenant Revill. Yes, sir; I can make them available to you.

Mr. Hubert. I would appreciate it if you would, because if you have a lot of that checkout work that would be helpful. How much of a job would it be to photostat all of those things? Did you turn them over to the FBI?

Lieutenant Revill. No, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Or any other Federal agent?

Lieutenant Revill. Anything that they wanted we gave to them.

Mr. Hubert. I understand that, but I mean, this mass of documents, as I gather, are individual reports on individual rumors and so forth, you didn't turn those over?

Lieutenant Revill. No, sir.

Mr. Hubert. As a block?

Lieutenant Revill. Now, I say we didn't. Let me qualify this, our reports that we make up, a copy is submitted to Chief Curry daily. Now, what he86 does with these reports, I do not know. He may have turned these over to some Federal agency.

Mr. Hubert. I tell you what I would like for you to do, if you please, is to find out if they have been turned over to the FBI. I know a lot of rumors have.

Lieutenant Revill. All right.

Mr. Hubert. It may be that all that you ran out and reported on they have too, and therefore, it would be repetition to have them in there, but what we would be interested in is the copy of the reports and investigation of those reports or rumors that have not been turned over to the FBI. Now, I wonder when you could let me know?

Lieutenant Revill. Let you know today.

Mr. Hubert. All right.

Lieutenant Revill. And if they have not, what we will do is pull from our file copies, and we will make copies available to you of each and every investigation that we conducted of a connection, or rumor, or connection between Ruby and Oswald.

Mr. Hubert. In other words, make photostatic copies and turn them over to me.

Lieutenant Revill. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. I would appreciate it and just write at the bottom of it, if you will, and sign it, that this is one of the investigations concerning a rumor, conducted by you, or whoever it was.

Lieutenant Revill. Do you want this as to each individual report, or collectively?

Mr. Hubert. You would have to initial each individual report so that we would be sure.

Lieutenant Revill. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. That those are the reports that you referred to in this deposition.

Lieutenant Revill. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. That would be very helpful to me. Then you can turn that over to me and we will make it a part of this deposition. In other words, you would certify that these reports are the ones that you were talking about during this deposition, and that to the best of your knowledge, they are correct. In effect, it will be as though you were here or under oath telling us that that is correct and that will close the record up. The only other way would be to have you come here and identify each one and I am trying to avoid that——

Lieutenant Revill. Let me ask you a question. These reports that we make reference to were submitted by officers under my supervision.

Mr. Hubert. Yes; well, I see your point.

Lieutenant Revill. Will each one of these officers need to initial them, or can I do this?

Mr. Hubert. Well, we'll have the understanding that this was done under your supervision, that you can't vouch for the absolute accuracy of every one of them, but that it is a report made in the course of police department business and that you and the police department rely upon those reports.

Lieutenant Revill. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. I think that will be fine. Have you been interviewed by any member of the Commission's staff by—prior to the deposition of this morning, and other than the interview that you and I had just preceding this interview this morning?

Lieutenant Revill. No, sir; I have not.

Mr. Hubert. Now, as to the interview that you and I had this morning before this deposition began right here in this room have we, in this deposition, covered all that we talked about in that interview?

Lieutenant Revill. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Is there any material information that we talked about in the interview that has not been brought out in the deposition?

Lieutenant Revill. I do not know of any.

Mr. Hubert. That's it.

87

TESTIMONY OF CAPT. JAMES MAURICE SOLOMON

The testimony of Capt. James Maurice Solomon was taken at 2 p.m., on March 26, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. Hubert. This is the deposition of Capt. J. M. Solomon of the Dallas Police Department. Captain Solomon, my name is Leon Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel of the President's Commission.

Under the provision of Executive Order No. 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and the joint resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the Commission, in conformance with that Executive order and joint resolution, I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you, Captain Solomon.

I state to you that the general nature of the Commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald. In particular as to you, Captain Solomon, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you might know about the general inquiry.

Captain Solomon, you have appeared today by virtue of a general request made to Chief Curry by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, who is the general counsel on the staff of the President's Commission.

Under the rules adopted by the Commission, you are entitled to a 3-day written notice prior to the taking of your deposition. But the rules also provide that any witness may waive that 3-day notice if he wishes to do so. Now, I would like to ask you if you are willing to waive the 3-day notice?

Mr. Solomon. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. All right, then; would you please raise your right hand.

Do you solemnly swear that you will tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. Solomon. I do.

Mr. Hubert. Will you please state your full name, Captain?

Mr. Solomon. James Maurice Solomon.

Mr. Hubert. What is your age, Captain?

Mr. Solomon. Fifty-four.

Mr. Hubert. And your residence?

Mr. Solomon. 1502 East Ohio.

Mr. Hubert. What is your present occupation?

Mr. Solomon. My occupation at the present time at the police department is reserve coordinator.

Mr. Hubert. You are a member of the Dallas Police Department?

Mr. Solomon. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. How long have you been a member of the department?

Mr. Solomon. Thirty years last September.

Mr. Hubert. Your particular assignment now is to coordinate the reserve affairs?

Mr. Solomon. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Of the Dallas Police Department?

Mr. Solomon. My offices are at the police academy, and I am used out there in training recruits.

Mr. Hubert. Were you in that same position during the period November 22 to 24, 1963?

Mr. Solomon. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. I would like you to state for the record just how the reserve program of the Dallas Police Department is set up, because I don't think we have it in the record otherwise.

Mr. Solomon. Well, I am sure you don't. The reserve operates different in every city that I know, and just to their particular needs.

Now, the reserve organization in Dallas is strictly what the name implies. It is, really a reserve intended to be called upon when there is a catastrophe, some real bad emergency, to augment our manpower.

88 It is a semimilitary organization in that we call it the reserve platoon. It has three companies commanded by a captain. Each company has three platoons. And each platoon has three squads. There are approximately—it fluctuates just a little bit—but there are approximately 300 men in the organization.

Mr. Hubert. Who is the reserve captain?

Mr. Solomon. There are four reserve captains. Now, the reserve major is Major Tropolis, the major in command. We call him the reserve commander. He is George Tropolis.

Mr. Hubert. Who are the captains?

Mr. Solomon. The captains are J. E. Marks, C. O. Arnett—I believe you talked to him last night—L. C. Crump and O. S. Muller.

Mr. Hubert. Do these men train at regular intervals?

Mr. Solomon. Yes, sir. They are all required to go through a training program of about 72 hours. They do that 1 night a week. Takes about 8 months to complete that before they are used in any way, before they are given a uniform or anything of that nature.

After they complete this training, they are outfitted with a uniform at their own expense, and from then on the participation that they do is considered observation training.

In other words, there is a program set up whereby they report at least two times a month. We have it set up twice a month, and mandatory that they come every third month. If they don't we drop them.

But each reserve is required to report at least once a month for observation training. He can do this in a squad car, in the jail office, or dispatcher's office, or in any phase of the police operation, really, and he is in uniform, and he works right alongside the regular officer and just assists him in his work in anything he wants him to do if he has a belligerent prisoner, but still that is considered observation training.

Here in the last year or so, we have been using our reserves more maybe like an auxiliary, but there have been times such as a parade or football parade—in other words, it wasn't an extreme emergency, but it was an event that we realized we needed more manpower, and they were anxious and willing and eager to help us, and they were being in uniform and were doing a good job.

You want me to continue?

Mr. Hubert. Do these men get any pay for this?

Mr. Solomon. No. There is no pay at all.

Mr. Hubert. As a matter of fact, they buy their own pistol and uniform?

Mr. Solomon. Yes. They buy their own initial uniform. After that their uniforms are maintained with the old uniforms that the regular officers outgrow or something like that.

Mr. Hubert. I gather from what you have said that you are rather strict as to the training program that these people must observe, otherwise you drop them?

Mr. Solomon. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. What about the basic selection of these people? How do you go about that? What are the criteria you use to select them?

Mr. Solomon. We have just an application form similar to what anybody would fill out in applying for a job, which is for their background, their schooling, what type of work they have been engaged in, where they have lived, and so forth. Then, of course, I submit that application to our personnel bureau which runs a background check on them, criminal and civil, or any court record they might have that might show their emotional stability or we run a credit check on them for bad debts or something like that, that kind of indication that they are not stable. And traffic arrests.

If it is somebody out of the ordinary, why we are kind of strict along that score. I have these reserve captains that I just mentioned that comprise the reserve staff, and each applicant I get after the personnel board submits their findings, they interview the men, and they have some information to go on there, and whether he is accepted to go to school. After they interview him and ask him questions about trying to feel out if they think he is emotionally suited for that kind of work.

89 Mr. Hubert. What, in your opinion, is it that interests a man to want to be in the reserve program?

Mr. Solomon. Well, that may be a vocation a little bit. You know, before I got into the program, I thought maybe it was just a group of people that were just trying to—they were just eager, I would say, in other words.

I thought they were, how should I say it, I just felt like they were kind of overeager, or just nosy, so to speak, and they just wanted to see around. But after I got into the program, I was amazed to find the caliber of men. I have only been in 7 years. I went in 1957. It was begun in 1952. And the man that had it then has since made a promotion to inspector, and I was assigned out there.

Mr. Hubert. In other words, you have satisfied yourself, I gather, that the motivation of these people for getting in the reserves is that they consider it a civic duty?

Mr. Solomon. A civic duty, yes, sir; civic minded.

Mr. Hubert. It is not just that they want the authority of the uniform?

Mr. Solomon. Yes, sir. Of course, we have applicants like that. It is the duty of the staff, in a drawn-out process of training, which is really drawn out 8 months, and long enough to observe them, to eliminate the ones they don't feel are suitable. I nearly always start off with a class of 50 men and I rarely ever graduate over 30—27 to 30.

During that period of time some naturally drop out and some I ask to leave, or just wash out, one way or another, as quickly as I can. After all, it is a public relations program, and if I understand somebody is in there that I know will get us in trouble, I find some excuse for him to leave.

Mr. Hubert. So, actually, about 60 percent of the people who start ultimately get into the program?

Mr. Solomon. That's right.

Mr. Hubert. Do you watch their conduct very carefully? On duty, of course I know, but off duty too?

Mr. Solomon. Well, yes. We have had a few occasions where a few got into some trouble. I guess just drinking or some did get into some bad debts and embarrass us, but we counseled with them. And I have had to let some go. Percentagewise this hasn't been much greater than in our regular department.

Mr. Hubert. All right. Now, I want to get to the matter of the interview you had with Harold Holly, who I think is a reserve officer?

Mr. Solomon. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Can you state in your own words just what that was all about?

Mr. Solomon. Well, Holly was with us a long time. He was in the organization, I have forgotten how many years, but I don't guess that is important.

But frankly, Holly was—he is confused. I am not exactly satisfied that he is sure about what he is saying. His statements were so general, such a general nature, and when I showed him the pictures he was unable to positively identify them.

This man that he did pick out and said that he looked most like the man that was in the basement was W. J. Newman. He was in the basement, but he wasn't out at Parkland Hospital where he told them he saw him, and I just got the impression that Holly was—he just wasn't too reliable a witness.

Mr. Hubert. What did he say to you? Of course, we will get his testimony, but what do you remember that Holly said to you?

Mr. Solomon. Well, he first approached me—you see, I was at the courthouse down in the area when Oswald was shot, so I knew immediately from the previous slaying that one of our big headaches was going to be at the Parkland Hospital, and I rushed on out there to try to set up a little security out there. And Holly showed up out there after awhile, and he made the statement to me that he thinks he knew a man—that is the way he put it, that he thought he saw one of the men out there that was in the basement of the city hall who knew something about that. And I said, "Who was it," and he said, "I couldn't tell you, but I would know him if I saw him."

Mr. Hubert. Did he say the man was in uniform?

Mr. Solomon. Yes; he said he saw him out there at Parkland Hospital, so I tried to check.

90 Mr. Hubert. This was told you at Parkland Hospital?

Mr. Solomon. Yes; this afternoon.

Mr. Hubert. The 24th?

Mr. Solomon. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Did he indicate that he thought he was a reserve officer?

Mr. Solomon. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. That is why he told it to you, I suppose?

Mr. Solomon. Yes; right. So I tried to find out who he was talking about, and he went with me and we couldn't find anybody that he thought he saw. And just from the way he talked to me, I just lost confidence in what he was trying to tell me. But I pursued it as far as I could, naturally, and asked him if he could identify some pictures, and I got all the pictures of the men that reported out there, and he picked out this man. And from there on, I didn't question him any further.

Mr. Hubert. He did pick out the picture of W. J. Newman and he said that was the man?

Mr. Solomon. He said he thought it was, it looked most like him. I don't think that it was, but it looked most like him.

Mr. Hubert. Of course, Newman was subsequently——

Mr. Solomon. He was interviewed by Jack Revill.

Mr. Hubert. Did you ever talk to Newman yourself about the matter?

Mr. Solomon. No; I didn't engage him in any conversation about it because I knew they were going to and I just didn't want to get him upset or say anything. I didn't know what he wanted to exactly question him about.

Mr. Hubert. So that you have not talked to Newman about what he might have seen or thought?

Mr. Solomon. No.

Mr. Hubert. Or what he reported or didn't report?

Mr. Solomon. No; that is right.

Mr. Hubert. Were you present at the time in the basement, at the time Oswald was killed?

Mr. Solomon. I was not. I was at the county courthouse.

Mr. Hubert. You were not in the basement itself?

Mr. Solomon. No.

Mr. Hubert. You don't know anything about what happened?

Mr. Solomon. They were anticipating trouble.

Mr. Hubert. You were in the city hall?

Mr. Solomon. No.

Mr. Hubert. I thought you meant the Dallas Police Building?

Mr. Solomon. No, sir; that is the county courthouse.

Mr. Hubert. I am going to mark for identification a document purporting to be a report of an interview with you, Captain Solomon, made by FBI Agents Hughes and Mabey on December 9, 1963, composed of two pages, and I am identifying it by marking along the right margin line, "Dallas, Texas, March 26, 1964, Exhibit 5106, Deposition of Capt. J. M. Solomon," and I am signing my name on the first page and putting on the second page my initials in the lower right-hand corner. Captain Solomon, have you read this document?

Mr. Solomon. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. So that we may recognize that we are talking about the same thing, would you put your signature at the bottom and your initials on the second page.

Mr. Solomon. I don't think that this is what I did awhile ago. You want my initials here?

Mr. Hubert. Just write by the margin and initials by the second page.

Mr. Solomon. [Signs and dates.]

Mr. Hubert. Now, you have read that document, I think, Captain?

Mr. Solomon. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Is that a correct report of your interview with the FBI Agents?

Mr. Solomon. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Is there anything that is omitted or that you want to change, or modify?

Mr. Solomon. No.

91 Mr. Hubert. Captain, do you know anything about this matter other than what we have talked about, that you would like to put into the record, sir?

Mr. Solomon. No, sir; I do not.

Mr. Hubert. All right. Now, have you been interviewed by any member of the Commission staff?

Mr. Solomon. No.

Mr. Hubert. As a matter of fact, before the commencement of this deposition, I did not interview you?

Mr. Solomon. No.

Mr. Hubert. I think, Captain, that I mentioned the word "pistol" a moment ago in connection with arming of the reserves?

Mr. Solomon. Did you? I didn't recall it.

Mr. Hubert. You indicated to me that actually these men are not armed with firearms?

Mr. Solomon. No; they are not armed. Would you want to make part—this part of the record? This is what I call an information sheet about what the reserve is. A lot of times a citizen calls me and wants to know something about it, and I mail them that.

(Hands to Mr. Hubert.)

Mr. Hubert. All right. I will accept this. I will mark on the front page, Dallas, Tex., March 26, 1964, Exhibit 5107. You call that a brochure?

Mr. Solomon. I call it an information sheet. We generally refer to it as a poop sheet.

Mr. Hubert. I am writing on this sheet, "Exhibit 5107, deposition of Capt. J. M. Solomon." I am signing my name, and for identification, if you will sign yours?

Mr. Solomon. Yes. That just gives a little more detail than what I told you about it, and I had forgotten that. That might be important that they are not armed. That is why we don't let them work in any capacity unless they are in the company of an officer.

Mr. Hubert. On the day in question, to wit, the 24th of November 1963, the reserve officers were in uniform but of course not armed?

Mr. Solomon. That's right.

Mr. Hubert. I notice that this Exhibit 5107 contains information about the minimum standards that are required?

Mr. Solomon. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. For admission and maintaining the status of a reserve officer, is that correct?

Mr. Solomon. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Can you state that these minimum standards are in force?

Mr. Solomon. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. One other question. Can you state that the reserve officers that were on duty on the 24th did meet these minimum standards?

Mr. Solomon. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Do you have anything else to say?

Mr. Solomon. Well, I don't suppose you want to know that we had some on duty during the Presidential Parade? Is that important?

Mr. Hubert. It might be in another aspect of the matter, but the one I am inquiring about, it is not. However, I am sure that the information that you have given me, generally speaking, should be made a part of the record, and that is why I have done that. Thank you very much, sir.

Mr. Solomon. You are so welcome.

Mr. Hubert. I appreciate your coming down.

Mr. Solomon. All right. Thank you very much, sir.

TESTIMONY OF M. W. STEVENSON

The testimony of M. W. Stevenson was taken at 7 p.m., on March 23, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

92

Mr. Hubert. This is the deposition of Assistant Deputy Chief M. W. Stevenson of the Dallas Police Department.

Mr. Stevenson, my name Leon Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel of the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy.

Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, joint resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the Commission in conformance with the Executive order and the joint resolution, I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you.

Mr. Stevenson, I state to you now, that the general nature of the Commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald, and in particular as to you, Mr. Stevenson, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts that you may know about the general inquiry.

Mr. Stevenson, you have appeared here today by virtue of a general request made by the general counsel of the staff of the President's Commission.

Under the rules adopted by the Commission, you are entitled to a 3-day written notice prior to the taking of this deposition. But the rules provide also that a witness may waive this notice of the taking of his deposition. Are you willing to waive this notice in time?

Mr. Stevenson. I am; yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Now, will you rise and be sworn, please.

Do you solemnly swear that you will tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. Stevenson. I do.

Mr. Hubert. Will you please state your full name, your age, your residence, and your occupation, and how long you have been in that occupation?

Mr. Stevenson. M. W. Stevenson. I am 60 years of age. I reside at 3452 Boulder Drive. I am with the Dallas Police Department. Have been for 36 years.

Mr. Hubert. What position do you now occupy with the Dallas Police Department?

Mr. Stevenson. I am deputy chief, commanding the criminal investigation division.

Mr. Hubert. Did you hold that same position during the period November 22 to 24 of 1963?

Mr. Stevenson. Yes; I did.

Mr. Hubert. How long have you held that position?

Mr. Stevenson. Since November of 1954.

Mr. Hubert. Generally speaking, what are the functions of your job? What are your duties and responsibilities?

Mr. Stevenson. I am in command of the criminal investigation division, and as such, I am responsible for the criminal investigation division of the Dallas Police Department.

I coordinate the work among the five bureaus which constitute the criminal investigation division.

Mr. Hubert. Would you state what those bureaus are, please, sir?

Mr. Stevenson. I have a homicide and robbery bureau, an automobile theft bureau; I have a juvenile bureau; a burglary and theft bureau; and a forgery bureau.

Mr. Hubert. Could you tell us now who was in charge of each of those bureaus during the period November 22–24, of 1963?

Mr. Stevenson. Captain Fritz was in charge of the homicide bureau as the immediate supervisor. Captain Jones was in charge of the forgery bureau. Captain Nichols was off that day, and I don't know which lieutenant was on.

Mr. Hubert. You say, "that day." I was really speaking of the 3-day period.

Mr. Stevenson. Captain Nichols, I am sorry, was in charge of the automobile theft bureau. Capt. F. M. Martin was in charge of the juvenile bureau. Capt. W. C. Fannin was in charge of the burglary and theft bureau.

Mr. Hubert. Just to get the record clear, insofar as Captain Nichols is concerned, you indicate he was off on 1 day of the 3-day period. Which day was that?

93 Mr. Stevenson. I believe that was the 24th.

Mr. Hubert. Now each one of these bureau chiefs reports to you and is responsible to you, is that correct?

Mr. Stevenson. That's right; yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Who are you responsible to?

Mr. Stevenson. To the assistant chief of police.

Mr. Hubert. Who is that?

Mr. Stevenson. Chief Charles Batchelor.

Mr. Hubert. In the course of this examination, it would be helpful to us if you would try to state an approximate time as to each episode or fact that you testify to, and also indicate whether the fact or matter or episode that you are testifying to is within your own knowledge; that is to say, gained from your own observation, or whether the information you give us was obtained from someone else, in that case, tell us if you can remember who gave you the information.

Mr. Stevenson. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Now, would you just give us briefly an account of what you did from about 12:30 on November 22 on forward.

Mr. Stevenson. At about or approximately 12:30 p.m., on the 22d, I was at the Trade Mart on Industrial, as I had charge of the officers and the security of the building for the luncheon of President Kennedy.

At about 12:30, approximately, I was notified by Secret Service Agent Grant and Captain Souter that the President had been shot. We didn't know how severe. It was stated that he was on the way to the hospital.

I immediately contacted Captain Fritz and two of his homicide men and relieved them from their assignment at the Trade Mart and assigned them to the investigation. As soon as I had done that, I relieved 13 other detectives and supervisors. I believe it was 13. I told them to notify headquarters they were available for assignment, and if no assignment, to report to the Texas Book Depository, as it was reported that there was a possibility the suspect might still be in the building.

After that, as fast as I could safely in my own opinion relieve the balance of men who I had on duty, because it had not been announced to the entire group there what had happened—that was at the request of the Secret Service that we didn't want a stampede there—as fast as I could relieve the others, I started relieving and putting them on duty and telling them to report to headquarters or notify headquarters they were available for assignment and any assistance they could give.

At approximately 1 or 1:15, I would say, Mr. Eric Jonsson notified the group of people in the Trade Mart that the President had been shot and had succumbed. Then as soon as we could empty the building, we relieved everyone and put them all back on duty with instructions to report to headquarters, where we kept them on duty as long as we needed any on any of the assignments. Chief Batchelor was still at the Trade Mart when we finally relieved all of the men.

He and I left the Trade Mart and drove to Parkland Hospital to see if we could render any assistance out there. When we got out there, we found Mr. Lawson of the Secret Service. He stated he would be ready in a few moments, to transfer the President's body to Love Field to be flown back to Washington. He had no escort. He asked if we would escort the hearse bearing the body to Love Field. We told him that we would. He, and I believe it was a member of the White House staff, rode in the car with us. We led the hearse to Love Field. Arrived at Love Field——

Mr. Hubert. Do you know what time you left the hospital, approximately?

Mr. Stevenson. I would say around 1:40, that is as near as I could say offhand, Mr. Hubert. I would say 1:40 to 2 o'clock.

Mr. Hubert. So you provided the escort for the hearse leaving the hospital about 1:40?

Mr. Stevenson. About 1:40 or 1:50. It's got to be somewhere in there, because the body was not held at the hospital but a short while.

Mr. Hubert. Did you know Jack Ruby prior to the time that he shot Oswald?

Mr. Stevenson. No, sir.

94 Mr. Hubert. Of course, you have seen pictures of him since, I take it?

Mr. Stevenson. Oh, yes.

Mr. Hubert. While you were at the hospital, and I would like you to state if you can, the time you arrived there, did you see Jack Ruby at any place around the hospital?

Mr. Stevenson. No, I did not. In fact, I did not get out of the car. I sat in the car by the radio while Chief Batchelor walked into the hospital to see if we could be of any further assistance.

Mr. Hubert. That was about what time that you arrived there, Mr. Stevenson?

Mr. Stevenson. I would say we arrived at the hospital around 1:40.

Mr. Hubert. All right, then go on.

Mr. Stevenson. After we reached Love Field, the Secret Service men loaded the casket onto the President's plane. They told us that they had called Judge Sarah T. Hughes to administer the oath of office to President Johnson.

She arrived in a short time. We remained at Love Field until she administered the oath and the plane was airborne. After the President's plane was airborne, we left and came back to the city hall. We arrived back at the city hall around 4 o'clock, I would say.

Mr. Hubert. When you say city hall, do you mean police department?

Mr. Stevenson. Police Courts Building, our headquarters.

Mr. Hubert. For the record, I wish you would describe the relationship between what is the police building and the municipal building of the city hall.

Mr. Stevenson. The Police and Courts Building is what was, until a few years ago, the city hall proper. A new building was constructed adjacent to this building and adjoining it just east of the Police and Courts Building.

It is now ordinarily referred to as the city hall, the building which is on the corner of Main, Harwood and Commerce, which is the old city hall, now known as the Police and Courts Building, and houses the jail, the police department, and one or two offices of our city government. But primarily it is referred to, or should be referred to as the Police and Courts Building.

Mr. Hubert. All right. Now, go on. So you arrived back at the police department.

Mr. Stevenson. We arrived back at the office about 4 o'clock, or maybe a few minutes later. I went directly to the homicide bureau. Chief Batchelor went to the administrative offices.

Before leaving the Trade Mart, I had gotten information through Captain Souter that the suspect in the shooting of Officer Tippit had been arrested. On the air on the way to the hospital, we heard several squads being dispatched to Texas Theatre. I asked the dispatcher what we had working at Texas Theatre, and he advised me that it was the suspect who had shot Officer Tippit, that he had been arrested at the Texas Theatre.

At that time I advised them that Chief Batchelor and myself, or "2" and "3," as I told him, which are our call numbers, were en route to Parkland Hospital and would be in the area and back to the office as soon as possible. When I arrived back at the city hall I went to the homicide bureau to see what progress on our investigation was made, I was advised that Oswald had definitely been identified in murder of Officer Tippit.

Mr. Hubert. Who advised you of this?

Mr. Stevenson. Lieutenant Wells in the homicide office.

Mr. Hubert. Did you see Oswald at that time?

Mr. Stevenson. No, sir; I didn't; he was being interviewed, but I did not see him.

Mr. Hubert. Who was interviewing him?

Mr. Stevenson. Captain Fritz and some FBI agent, I don't know who, and I believe a Secret Service agent.

Mr. Hubert. Are you aware now of a message that had been sent by the FBI to the Dallas Police Department concerning the security of Oswald?

Mr. Stevenson. Not at that time, no, sir. That was Friday afternoon?

Mr. Hubert. Yes; but you didn't learn that Mr. Hoover had sent word that great care should be taken for the security?

Mr. Stevenson. Not at that time, I had not; no, sir.

95 Mr. Hubert. Will you tell us without detail, generally speaking, of your activities on the rest of the 22d, and the 23d.

Mr. Stevenson. After I was advised that he had definitely been identified and from evidence which was being checked, it looked like he possibly might be the same man who shot the President. I returned to my office in the administrative offices, and was in and out of the homicide bureau on numerous times, staying in touch with the investigation, and they were in touch with my office.

About 7 p.m., I believe it was 7, approximately 7, Oswald was filed on for the murder of Officer Tippit, and was arraigned in the Police and Courts Building by Justice of the Peace Dave Johnston, I believe it was.

Now at approximately, I would say, 7 or 8 o'clock, some word came to me from Chief Curry, which apparently was from Mr. Hoover or someone from Washington, that they wanted an agent of the FBI or Secret Service present at all interviews. That was the first that I had heard of anything from this, and that came to me through Chief Curry.

At about 12 midnight, I was advised by Lieutenant Wells, and I talked to Mr. Alexander, assistant district attorney, and Mr. Jim Allen, former first assistant district attorney and a friend of the department, and was advised that sufficient evidence had been obtained and that charges were being filed in the death of President Kennedy.

Mr. Hubert. Charges against Oswald?

Mr. Stevenson. Oswald; yes, sir. He was arraigned.

Mr. Hubert. They did not tell you at that time, did they, what evidence it was, but simply that it was sufficient evidence?

Mr. Stevenson. No, sir; not all of it, but they told me at that time that they had found a rifle that they were sure was the one. They had talked to witnesses. The officer had seen him in the Texas Book Depository a few minutes after the shooting. He was an employee down there. He had left the building after the shooting.

Mr. Hubert. They told you all this at the time they told you that they had enough in their opinion to charge?

Mr. Stevenson. Yes; charges were filed. And at about 1:30 a.m., on the 23d, he was arraigned in the identification bureau on the charge of murdering President Kennedy, before Judge Dave Johnston, and was returned to his cell under guard at that time after the arraignment. I was present at that arraignment. I was not present at the arraignment on the Tippit case.

After he was arraigned, I returned to my office and was in my office, the homicide office or bureau where I might have business for the balance of the night up until about 3 o'clock, at which time the homicide office was closed until the following morning. I remained on duty in the administrative offices with detectives whom we had working that night standing by for any assignments or any other information we might get, that we wanted to investigate during the night—and left the city hall, the Police and Courts Building at about 12:35 Saturday afternoon.

Mr. Hubert. Now are you familiar with the lineup conducted in the regular assembly or lineup room of the Dallas Police Department of Oswald when some newspaper people were present?

Mr. Stevenson. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Could you tell us about that? First of all, what time was it?

Mr. Stevenson. That was a few moments after charges were filed, I believe, by the district attorney.

Mr. Hubert. Charges on Oswald?

Mr. Stevenson. On Oswald in the President's death. The district attorney, Mr. Wade, and the assistant, Mr. Alexander, were present.

Mr. Hubert. Were you present?

Mr. Stevenson. I did not go into the room, I just went to the door down there. I was present when they did go down for the showup, but I did not go into the room.

Mr. Hubert. You say you did not look into the room?

Mr. Stevenson. I did not go into the room. The door, of course, was open, but I was present when they left the third floor, the homicide office, to go down for this lineup.

96 Mr. Hubert. You went down to the door of the lineup room?

Mr. Stevenson. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Do you recall looking in at all?

Mr. Stevenson. Yes, I could look in through the open door.

Mr. Hubert. Did you see a man since identified as Jack Ruby, in that room?

Mr. Stevenson. Oh, no, sir; I did not.

Mr. Hubert. Did you hear him say anything?

Mr. Stevenson. No, sir. Frankly, I was not close enough. The only ones that I could see or did see were those lined up in the front of the room.

Mr. Hubert. How many people were in that room, do you suppose?

Mr. Stevenson. I would say, and this is an estimate on my part, Mr. Hubert—I would say from 100 to 125, including officers and news media and everything.

Mr. Hubert. Do you know what security plan or actual operations were put into effect with respect to Oswald during that period?

Mr. Stevenson. When he left upstairs, he was taken back through the jail office. From the jail office down, there is an elevator to the downstairs jail office, onto the "showup stage," as we call it in the assembly room. He was taken down through the jail; was not taken out from there.

Now to take him into the showup room, I was not where I could see how many officers were around him. But it was necessary to bring him from the elevator next to the homicide bureau every time we brought him down to interview him. At that time we would have as many as three officers with him, and from four to half a dozen officers on the route through to the next door.

Mr. Hubert. Do you know what check was made of the people who were allowed into the assembly room?

Mr. Stevenson. No one was supposed to have been in the assembly room or on the third floor except news media properly identified.

Mr. Hubert. How was this established?

Mr. Stevenson. We had officers at the elevators and the stairways with instructions that unless they were an official or connected with an official news media, they were not to be permitted on that floor unless they had business in one of the other bureaus, and the officer was to escort him to that bureau.

We later eliminated as much of that as we could that night by calling the jail office. If he wanted to visit some prisoner at the jail, the jail personnel called the bureau and were instructed as to whether a pass would be permitted.

Mr. Hubert. But do you know whether or not, as these newsmen and the rest of the other news media went into the assembly room for this lineup, whether they were checked in any way again upon entering?

Mr. Stevenson. No, sir; I don't, because when I went down to the basement, they were already in the room. In other words, they had already filed into the room.

Mr. Hubert. What else do you know in general terms about the security of Oswald when he was in the cell? I think you have already covered when he was being moved?

Mr. Stevenson. Yes; there was a guard on his cell at all times, and at sometimes there were as many as two, but around the clock a guard was placed outside his cell door. He was not permitted to converse with other prisoners. In fact, he was placed in a cell where it would be impossible for other prisoners to get to him.

For the arraignment in the murder of the President, he was brought from the jail into the identification bureau, where there is a barred door coming in to identification room from jail. He was not brought back through the Police and Courts Building proper. He was brought directly from the jail into the identification bureau when he was arraigned.

Mr. Hubert. I think that takes us then to 12:30 on Saturday. You were on duty until 12:30 a.m. on Saturday?

Mr. Stevenson. Right.

Mr. Hubert. When did you come back to duty thereafter?

Mr. Stevenson. I came back to the city hall Saturday evening about 7 or 7:15, and went immediately to the homicide bureau to check on any further developments, and was advised that the case was building stronger, other97 evidence being accumulated, and if I might go back a little bit now, at around 1 o'clock, on Saturday morning—I am trying to get my time straightened out here—the pertinent evidence that we had checked in the case of Oswald's shooting of the President was forwarded to the Federal Bureau of Investigation Laboratory in Washington, D.C., to be processed, the rifle and other evidence as that for fingerprints and any other evidence that might help us in the investigation.

After I had gotten back to the city hall Saturday afternoon, through discussion, I don't recall from whom, but in the hallway, that the prisoner would not be transferred before 10 o'clock the next morning.

I went to Chief Batchelor and asked him about the authenticity of that particular remark, and he said, "Yes, that's right." And I said, "Has the press been notified?" And he said, "Yes."

Mr. Hubert. What time was it that you first heard about the fact that Oswald would not be moved Saturday night?

Mr. Stevenson. Approximately 7:30 p.m., on the 23d.

Mr. Hubert. Now just what was it you heard and what was it that was confirmed by Batchelor?

Mr. Stevenson. I heard, as I stated, I don't know who made the remarks, but from the discussion in the hall, that Oswald would be moved not before 10 o'clock the next morning.

Mr. Hubert. Did the information that you received indicate a time of removal the next day?

Mr. Stevenson. Nothing but that it would not be before 10 o'clock.

Mr. Hubert. It didn't say what time after 10 o'clock?

Mr. Stevenson. No, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Did Batchelor tell you what time it would be after 10 o'clock?

Mr. Stevenson. No, sir. I went to Chief Batchelor—the reason I went to Chief Batchelor with that when I heard these remarks, I wanted to know if the press had been told. I went to Chief Batchelor and affirmed the fact that the statement had been made and that the press had been told.

Mr. Hubert. All right; just go ahead then.

Mr. Stevenson. I remained at my office in the Police and Courts Building until approximately 10:30 Saturday night, at which time I went home.

And returned to the Police and Courts Building at approximately 8 o'clock, Sunday morning, the 24th.

Mr. Hubert. Now before you left your duty on Saturday night, do you know of any plans that had been made for the transfer of Oswald and the security of that transfer?

Mr. Stevenson. No, sir; not on Saturday night, to my knowledge, I don't recall.

Mr. Hubert. All right, then, proceed to Sunday, please, sir.

Mr. Stevenson. I arrived at the basement of the Police and Courts Building at approximately 8 o'clock. Maybe 8:15.

I believe Chief Batchelor arrived at about the same time, and Chief Curry either came in near that time or a few minutes later. Now, I don't recall.

When Chief Batchelor and I were in the basement; we observed a Captain Talbert had already started setting up security in the basement and on the streets outside.

Mr. Hubert. Will you describe what you mean when you say he had already started setting up security?

Mr. Stevenson. He had placed officers on the Commerce Street side of the city hall at the top of the ramp.

There was two or three officers at that time, we observed, in the basement. And I believe Captain Talbert was in the basement, and one of the sergeants, possibly Sergeant Dean. I could be wrong on Dean being there at that time.

Mr. Hubert. That was when you first came in?

Mr. Stevenson. That was when we first arrived at the city hall. It was too early at that time to see just where we would want the men assigned, or where he would have them assigned, rather, because I was not assigning the men to security other than being of any assistance to the men in my division that I could possibly be. Chief Curry, Chief Batchelor, and myself looked over the basement shortly after, or I would say 8:45. Chief Curry observed a large TV98 camera sitting back in the alcove as you go into the double doors into the Police and Courts Building of the basement.

Mr. Hubert. Is that the basement side of those double doors, or on the jail side?

Mr. Stevenson. That was just outside the jail windows after you get through the double doors from inside the Police and Courts Building. It was sitting outside the doors in the part of what is a part of the basement.

Mr. Hubert. I see.

Mr. Stevenson. He instructed that the camera would have to be moved and moved across the driveway into the parking area proper. He also instructed at that time, I believe it was at that time, that the two cars that were parked, I would say it was a squad car and a plain car, in spaces one and two, as I will refer to them, were directly across from the door leading out of the basement, that they would be moved and those spaces left unoccupied, no cars would be parked in there.

Mr. Hubert. Chief Stevenson, I have before me the chart of the basement area including the jail office and parking area and the ramps and so forth. I am going to date it, and I am doing so now, "Dallas, Tex., March 23, 1964, as Exhibit 5050," in the deposition of Chief M. W. Stevenson. I am signing it with my own name, and I am going to ask you to sign it just below mine, because in your testimony from now on out, I am going to ask you to refer to this chart and put certain positions down on it.

Now, when you mentioned just now, a moment ago when you said that Chief Curry asked that two cars in spots one and two be moved off, would you indicate on Exhibit 5050 by putting "Spot 1," and "Spot 2," what cars he was talking about?

(Writing on chart.)

Mr. Stevenson. Right here.

Mr. Hubert. Just put "Spot," so we will know. "Spot 1," and "Spot 2."

All right, was that done? Were the cars moved?

Mr. Stevenson. Yes, sir; they were moved from those two parking spaces.

Mr. Hubert. What happened next?

Mr. Stevenson. At that time we all returned back up to the third floor. That was approximately, I would say, 8:40 or 8:45.

Mr. Hubert. That would be you and Captain Batchelor?

Mr. Stevenson. That would be me and Assistant Chief Batchelor and Chief Curry.

Mr. Hubert. All right.

Mr. Stevenson. We went back upstairs, and I would say 30 minutes later, or approximately 9 or 9:15, Chief Curry and Chief Batchelor had discussed the possibility of moving the prisoner in an armored car due to some threats—incidentally, I have to drop back a little.

Chief Batchelor notified me, when I met him down there that morning, that Captain Frazier, I believe it was, had called him at home and told him that the FBI had called up with some information that, I won't say how many, but a group of people were going to take Oswald away from the officers on the transfer.

Mr. Hubert. Did Captain Frazier tell you?

Mr. Stevenson. No; he called Chief Batchelor, and he told me that Captain Frazier had called him.

Mr. Hubert. Told him there had been a message received from the FBI that someone had called the FBI?

Mr. Stevenson. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Stating that there would be an effort made; is that correct?

Mr. Stevenson. Right.

Mr. Hubert. Did Captain Batchelor indicate to you at that time whether the FBI knew who had made this call?

Mr. Stevenson. No, sir; he did not.

Mr. Hubert. Did he indicate to you that it was an anonymous call?

Mr. Stevenson. I believe, as I remember, he did say that the message that he got was that an anonymous caller had notified the FBI.

Mr. Hubert. All right; go ahead with it then.

99 Mr. Stevenson. They had discussed the possibility of transferring the prisoner in an armored car due to these threats. I walked in the office, in the chief's office while that was being discussed, and the chief asked me what I thought about it.

I told him I thought it would be a good idea, in view of the threats. Chief Batchelor went to his office to contact one of the local armored truck operators, who was, I believe, a Mr. Fleming, and made arrangements to get an armored truck. I remained around the office on the third floor, and I believe Chief Batchelor and I made another trip down in the basement before I went after some coffee.

Chief Batchelor advised Chief Curry he had ordered the armored truck and told Chief Curry, he and I were going to the basement and look the area over. We went to the basement, and Captain Talbert had set up, what we thought, was a very good security.

Mr. Hubert. Did you see it yourself?

Mr. Stevenson. Yes; I saw the officers, where they were distributed.

Mr. Hubert. Would you state then for the record just what you saw, what you stated you considered to be good security? And it might be that you will want to use that chart to indicate what you mean.

Mr. Stevenson. He had placed officers—he had not stationed them definitely, but he had officers there checking everybody that came into the basement. He had officers down there that searched the entire basement area, searching cars, on top of the heat conduits, and so forth. He had officers on the ramp up here.

Mr. Hubert. Wait a minute, you say, "up here"?

Mr. Stevenson. At the top of the Commerce Street ramp.

Mr. Hubert. How many officers did he have there?

Mr. Stevenson. I don't know just how many. He had some reserve and regular officers. And Captain Arnett advised us, I believe it was on this trip, that he had been instructed by Captain Talbert to move all of the people to the southside of Commerce Street, permit none of them to congregate on the city hall or Police and Courts Building side of Commerce, and that he had done that. We observed that the crowd was across the street. He had an officer stationed up here at the top of the Main Street ramp.

Mr. Hubert. Do you know that officer's name?

Mr. Stevenson. Vaughn, I believe it was.

Mr. Hubert. I wonder if you would write his name there in your own handwriting.

Let the record indicate that Mr. Stevenson is writing the name of the Officer Vaughn on Exhibit 5050.

Can you tell us what officers you saw in the basement area?

Mr. Stevenson. At that time when I was down there, I cannot say other than that I did see Captain Talbert. He was all over the area.

Mr. Hubert. What time was this, about, again?

Mr. Stevenson. This was around 9:45, I guess. As best I recall the time on that.

Mr. Hubert. Any of the news people there then?

Mr. Stevenson. Yes, sir; there were a few. This camera had been moved. They were back over in this area back in here.

Mr. Hubert. Well, now, you are indicating on the chart that they had been moved to what is called there the parking area?

Mr. Stevenson. Parking area of the basement; yes.

Mr. Hubert. All right; go ahead.

Mr. Stevenson. We returned back upstairs to the third floor. Chief Lumpkin and I went to the second floor to the patrol captain's office. Captain Talbert came up to the office and asked us to have a cup of coffee with him, which we did. He asked us at this time about the time of the route of the transfer. We told him at that time that we didn't know definitely, but that we believed that it would be east on Commerce to Central, north on Central to Main, and west on Main to the county jail.

Mr. Hubert. You say that you were not certain of that information, but that you had gathered it? Could you expand on that and tell us where you think you got that information? As far as you are concerned, then, there had been no plans that you knew of as to the route?

100 Mr. Stevenson. Not the exact route at 9:45 or 10 o'clock, somewhere in that area. He asked us what route it would travel, and we told him that we believed that it would go up to the Central Expressway and west on Main at that time.

Mr. Hubert. When you used the pronoun "we," whom do you mean?

Mr. Stevenson. Chief Lumpkin and I.

Mr. Hubert. So that the route, so far as you knew it at that time, would be out of the Commerce Street exit, turning left, going beyond Pearl Street, which was one way against the direction which you wanted to go, and then over to North Central Expressway?

Mr. Stevenson. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Turning left again and going to Main Street, turning left again, and then all the way down Main to Houston?

Mr. Stevenson. Right.

Mr. Hubert. Did he give any instructions, or did he indicate what he was going to do in connection with that plan?

Mr. Stevenson. He said that he would call 10 men from his outside patrol and place one at each intersection on the route that would be taken to the county jail, which, as I said, at that time we figured would be Main Street, and he did make necessary arrangements.

Mr. Hubert. All right then; go ahead.

Mr. Stevenson. After we had drunk a cup of coffee, we returned back to the third floor and were advised a few moments later—Chief Batchelor advised me that the man had called him and that he was preparing to send the truck now. We again went to the basement, he and I, to see about the arrival of the armored truck.

I instructed Detective Captain O. A. Jones to go to the top of the Commerce Street ramp leading out of the basement to notify the two officers who were on duty there, to assist the truck when it came up and get it backed in as far as it would go down the ramp. Captain Jones did this and advised me that he also told Captain Talbert what he had done so that Captain Talbert would not move the officers when they got there. The truck was en route at that time.

After the truck arrived and was backed in, Chief Batchelor advised me that he and Lieutenant Smart opened the truck up and searched it completely, taking out, I believe, a couple of empty Coca-Cola bottles or soft drink bottles.

I had returned to the third floor, went to the homicide office, homicide bureau office, Chief Curry, Lieutenant Pierce, Captain Fritz, and I believe an FBI agent, and Lee Harvey Oswald was in Captain Fritz' office and some Federal officer had been interviewing him, oh, I would say at least for an hour, and I was advised at that time by Chief Curry——

Mr. Hubert. What time was that?

Mr. Stevenson. That was about 11:10 or 11:15—that they had changed their plans after discussing it with Captain Fritz and that instead of using the armored truck to transport the prisoner to the county jail, they would use the truck as a decoy because a car would be much more maneuverable if a crowd tried or anyone started to stop the car or take the prisoner, that the truck would proceed east on Commerce from the Commerce Street ramp to the Central Expressway north, north to Elm Street, Elm Street west to Houston, and would turn left and not stop at the county jail, but pass by the county jail on Houston, that the car carrying the prisoner followed by another car of detectives, and Chief Curry's car, which was also parked out in the street, would leave the truck at Main Street on North Central and turn west down Main Street and proceed directly to the county jail.

And the sheriff's office had been notified and would have the steel gate open where the car could drive in and the gate could be closed directly behind it. When given this information, I left the homicide bureau and started back to the basement.

I met Chief Lumpkin at the elevator on the way to the basement and I advised him of the change in plan. On arriving at the basement, I advised Chief Batchelor and Captain Jones of the change in the plan.

I had been in the basement a minute or two after I had advised them of the change, and two detectives were bringing two police and plain cars from the parking area proper onto the ramp from the parking area.

101 I stepped across the driveway and instructed the officers there to assist the detective in getting these cars up on the ramp where it could back into, to pick the prisoner up, and follow the last car which was driven by Detective Dhority. As I came out of the parking area, the car pulled onto the ramp to back up.

I stepped across behind the car right over here.

Mr. Hubert. All right, would you draw a little square roughly the size of the automobile driven by Dhority, and then place a circle to indicate your own position of that time?

Mr. Stevenson. That is a long automobile, but as I recall, this post, I was standing right here, and the car had gotten back to right along here.

Mr. Hubert. You were on the south side of that post, standing?

Mr. Stevenson. I believe I was standing right here at the edge.

Mr. Hubert. Is that the very front of the automobile on the right side?

Mr. Stevenson. No; I was just about at the right door hinge. The right front door hinge, that is where I was standing. That is a very poor drawing of the car, Mr. Hubert.

Mr. Hubert. That is all right. Just put in there, "police car," in that square.

Now you have also drawn a circle to the south of that post, and I wish you would draw a little arrow and put your initials indicating that that was your position.

Now let me get this. Did your position change from the way you have marked it here at all up until Ruby shot Oswald?

Mr. Stevenson. No, sir; it did not. If I may explain this a little bit, from where I have drawn this circle, this post that extends out here is built onto the wall, and where I was standing, I could see plumb back into here. I was not behind the post as it looks like here.

Mr. Hubert. How much space was there between the post and the right side of the automobile?

Mr. Stevenson. I would say there was 3 feet.

Mr. Hubert. Now, would you describe for us the position of the news media in the basement area there, giving us as much as possible the number of people, say, on the Main Street ramp, and the number of people in the basement area proper?

Mr. Stevenson. I would say from the corner of the building here, straight across.

Mr. Hubert. When you say, "here," just mark a point. Let's call that "number 1" to point number 2.

Mr. Stevenson. I can make that up this way, I believe.

I would say in this area, from here to here, and over here.

Mr. Hubert. Let's say you are talking about the southwest wall of the——

Mr. Stevenson. From the west wall—we term that the west side of the driveway of the ramp to the east side, and back up to here.

Mr. Hubert. And back up to approximately where the ramp begins to go up, is it?

Mr. Stevenson. Let me look at my small map.

I may have that marked wrong. I may not be saying what I want to say. If I have those maps with me, I hope I have as much as I worked on that thing. I ought to tell you with my eyes closed.

I evidently left them.

Mr. Hubert. All right. Let's get at it this way.

Mr. Stevenson. The driveway end out from right here.

Mr. Hubert. Don't say from right here. Let me put it to you this way. On the Main Street ramp, it is from the——

Mr. Stevenson. That would be the entrance into the——

(Discussion off the record to orient positions.)

Mr. Hubert. From the corner which is formed by the intersection of the jail corridor and the Main Street ramp on a line roughly due east or northeast, rather, and another line running along the Main Street ramp, and then another line across the ramp to the wall, how many news people were in that area?

Mr. Stevenson. I would say, and it is purely a guess, from 30 to 40 on the north ramp, Mr. Hubert.

102 Mr. Hubert. How many people can you estimate could stand abreast along there?

Mr. Stevenson. It is 12 feet and 6 inches wide, the ramp is. I would say 5 people could stand in there side by side.

Mr. Hubert. It actually is a little wider, is it not?

Mr. Stevenson. It is down here. That is why I was looking for another little map I had there. It is 15 and 2 here.

Mr. Hubert. Well, roughly speaking, how many people did you see abreast there, and how many ranks of such people were there?

Mr. Stevenson. I don't know how many ranks there were. I would say there were, counting the officers and the detectives, and that is what I would have to go by, because we had detectives ranging that whole area.

I would say they were 6 or 7 or 8 deep.

Mr. Hubert. And about 5 or 6 across?

Mr. Stevenson. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. So that somewhere between 40 and 50 people?

Mr. Stevenson. Possibly; yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Now, in the basement area itself, in, and particularly that portion which faces into the jail corridor, how many people were there?

Mr. Stevenson. I would say, counting police officers and everybody, and again that is what I'd have to go by, I would say there were at least 50 in this area in here.

Mr. Hubert. When you say this area in here, you are describing a semicircle?

Mr. Stevenson. From the two spaces which were cleared in the parking area proper back to——

Mr. Hubert. Just draw a line.

Mr. Stevenson. [Compliance.]

Mr. Hubert. Would you just mark within that line the number of people that you think were within that space?

Mr. Stevenson. [Compliance.]

Mr. Hubert. Now mark the same way on the Main ramp the number of people that were in the area on the Main ramp?

Mr. Stevenson. [Marking] Well, it is purely a guess. I would say 40 to 50, in that area.

Mr. Hubert. Let me see if I can recapitulate it.

On the Main ramp there were between 40 and 50 newspeople standing abreast?

Mr. Stevenson. Not news—police and all.

Mr. Hubert. And news people standing abreast is roughly five to six to seven to eight, perhaps?

Mr. Stevenson. Right.

Mr. Hubert. In this other area which you have marked with a rough semicircle, there were between 50 and 60 people?

Mr. Stevenson. That is an estimate, estimate on it; yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Now, when you came down and observed the moving of the vehicle driven by Dhority, were those people in the ramp and basement area already located there?

Mr. Stevenson. Yes, sir; they were.

Mr. Hubert. Do you know what security arrangements had been made with respect to checking the presence of those people?

Mr. Stevenson. Yes, sir; the same security arrangement we had used all the way. No one was to be permitted into the basement without being a bona fide member of the press or news media, and to our knowledge, or to my knowledge, there was no one down there except members of the press or police officers, or officers from some department, a Federal officer or sheriff's office.

Mr. Hubert. Do you know of any instructions that had been given with reference to checking these people for identification?

Mr. Stevenson. Only what was given to them on the third floor. Now, I don't know what instructions Captain Talbert had given the men, but he told me he had instructed that no one would be permitted in there unless they had a press pass and was officially connected with the news media.

Mr. Hubert. Did he tell you how that would be ascertained?

103 Mr. Stevenson. By the officers checking them and checking his credentials.

Mr. Hubert. I think you had gone there earlier on the occasion of about 9:45, I believe it was, when you and Batchelor went to get coffee?

Mr. Stevenson. That was Chief Lumpkin and I drank the coffee, Mr. Hubert.

Mr. Hubert. Anyhow, I am thinking about the last time that you were there prior to your going down finally, or to put it another way, the second to the last time you were down?

Mr. Stevenson. The next to the last time was after I drank the coffee, Chief Batchelor and I went down there.

Mr. Hubert. What time was it then?

Mr. Stevenson. About the best I recollect, around 10:30.

Mr. Hubert. Now were these news media people in those areas at that time?

Mr. Stevenson. Not on the Main Street or north ramp, not at that time.

Mr. Hubert. Do you know where they were?

Mr. Stevenson. They were back in here.

Mr. Hubert. That is to say, back in the basement area?

Mr. Stevenson. Yes; in the basement area.

Mr. Hubert. So at that time you think there were approximately, well, twice the number of people that you have since described as were in the Main ramp and the basement area, roughly about a hundred people?

Mr. Stevenson. At that time there might not have been, because that was some 40 or 50 minutes before the prisoner was transferred.

Mr. Hubert. Were there people upstairs or elsewhere?

Mr. Stevenson. Some of them were on the third floor. Some of them were on the first floor. Now just where they all were, Mr. Hubert, prior to the time the transfer was actually made, I don't know, but about 10:30, I would say that there was not that many down there at that time.

Mr. Hubert. When you said the first floor, you meant the first floor of the police and courts—of the police department?

Mr. Stevenson. Of the police and courts building; yes.

Mr. Hubert. You have already testified concerning the relation of what you call the courts?

Mr. Stevenson. The police and courts building.

Mr. Hubert. To the municipal building or the city hall?

Mr. Stevenson. Right.

Mr. Hubert. Do you know of your own knowledge whether there was any security as to the entrance to the city hall's first floor?

Mr. Stevenson. Oh, only what Captain Talbert advised me, that they did have it sealed off and had the elevators stopped on the first floor and nothing to come below the first floor of the city hall proper.

Mr. Hubert. Do you know about what entrances do exist to the city hall municipal building's first floor?

Mr. Stevenson. Yes.

There is an entrance off of Main Street. There is an entrance off of Commerce Street. There is also an entrance into what we call a freight elevator off the alley on the east side which the alley runs between Commerce and Main and right up to the east side of the city hall.

To my knowledge, those are the three entrances to the city hall proper other than from the basement and the elevators up from the basement.

Mr. Hubert. Isn't there a corridor, however, that leads from the first floor of the city hall to the first floor of the police department?

Mr. Stevenson. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Do you know what security there was with respect to that corridor?

Mr. Stevenson. To my own knowledge, Mr. Hubert, I don't know other than he did have, Captain Talbert said he had men on the first floor of the police and courts building and I believe that you will find a steel gate that closes off the police and courts building from the municipal building.

Mr. Hubert. Do you know whether that gate was closed?

Mr. Stevenson. No, sir; I do not. I did not inspect that.

Mr. Hubert. Do you know whether the entrance to the first floor of the municipal building on Main and Commerce were locked or not locked?

104 Mr. Stevenson. I did not inspect them; no, sir. I do not know of my own knowledge, but usually on a Sunday, those doors are locked.

Mr. Hubert. Is that statement true about the door on the alley?

Mr. Stevenson. To my knowledge, only the maintenance crews have keys.

Mr. Hubert. Now were any policemen assigned to any of those three entrances from the outside into the first floor of the municipal building? To wit, Main Street entrance, Commerce Street entrance, and the service door on the alley?

Mr. Stevenson. To my own knowledge, I don't know whether Captain Talbert told me that he had security on the outside of the doors of the city hall and the municipal building, but I did not go out and check those to see.

Mr. Hubert. Were you aware then—that is to say, on November 24th, of the position of two reserve officers called Brock and Worley?

Mr. Stevenson. Not by name; no, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Do you know that there were two reserve officers in the basement area, one of them near the elevators and one of them near the——

Mr. Stevenson. This is a driveway into the parking area.

Mr. Hubert. The driveway into the parking area proper?

Mr. Stevenson. To my own knowledge, no, sir; I don't. I did not go back to the elevators over here to check on that. My officers were in this general area in here.

Mr. Hubert. That is to say, you are indicating from the intersection of the jail corridor and the ramp at the basement?

Mr. Stevenson. Directly out in front of the jail office entrance, and in this area in here, and up this way and back here.

Mr. Hubert. Do you know anything about the removal of those two men from the positions indicated?

Mr. Stevenson. No, sir; I do not.

Mr. Hubert. Now, did you observe the shooting?

Mr. Stevenson. No, sir; I did not witness the shooting. If I may explain that, when Mr. Dhority backed the car that was to carry Lee Harvey Oswald to the county jail, then, as I have stated before, I stepped to the west side of it and was right about the front hinge of the door. I heard someone remark "They are coming out."

I looked around and observed Captain Fritz coming right through here.

Mr. Hubert. From the jail corridor?

Mr. Stevenson. From the jail corridor. When I saw him, I immediately directed my attention to the overall basement area of our security setup to observe anything that went on, and they had not taken but a few steps and had not reached the back of the car when I heard a shot, and immediately again I directed by attention to the prisoner and observed a group of officers, I would say, some 8 or 10, subduing someone.

And as I stepped back here, I saw Detective Graves who had been with Oswald.

Mr. Hubert. When you say, "stepped back"——

Mr. Stevenson. Back to where the shooting had taken place, I saw him rise from the crowd with a gun in his hand still holding it around the cylinder.

Ruby was picked up and taken into the jail office, who I afterwards learned was Ruby, and Oswald was also carried into the jail office. Lieutenant Wiggins instructed an ambulance to be called.

I then stepped back out of the jail.

When the shooting took place, the officers on the Main Street ramp, this one up here——

Mr. Hubert. That would be Mr. Vaughn?

Mr. Stevenson. I don't know that he was one that pulled his gun, but there were several reserve officers and other officers down in here.

Mr. Hubert. That is on the Main Street ramp?

Mr. Stevenson. I was told by, I believe it was, Captain Jones, that the officers up there had their guns out. And I stepped back out of the jail office after seeing that Ruby and Oswald had been taken care of.

The north ramp was quiet, but the officers were having difficulty with people.

Mr. Hubert. On the Commerce Street ramp?

105 Mr. Stevenson. At the top of the Commerce Street ramp, or near the top.

I stepped back up here and told those officers that the man that did the shooting was in custody and there was no more trouble. Ruby was taken upstairs and the ambulance picked up Oswald.

Mr. Hubert. Did you go up with Ruby yourself?

Mr. Stevenson. No; Captain King, Detective Archer, and I believe McMillon went up with Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. Hubert. You mean with Ruby?

Mr. Stevenson. I mean with Ruby, pardon me. With Ruby up to the jail office.

Captain King advised me when I came back down that they had stripped Ruby of his clothing, searched him to see that he had nothing on him with which he could harm himself or harm anyone else, and in about, oh, I would say possibly 10 minutes after he was taken upstairs, Secret Service Agent Forrest Sorrels did go up and talk with him, and Sergeant Dean, I believe it was, took him up there.

Now this was told to me by Sergeant Dean, that Mr. Sorrels did request to go up and talk to him, and he did take him up there.

Mr. Hubert. Did you observe Ruby before he was stripped of his clothing?

Mr. Stevenson. Yes; I observed him in the jail office after he had been picked up, after he had shot Oswald.

He had been picked up from just outside the jail office door near the ramp and was taken into the jail office, and he was standing in the jail office with the detectives holding him, when I walked in there.

Mr. Hubert. Did you observe any kind of press pass on his person?

Mr. Stevenson. No, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Did you know Ruby prior to that time?

Mr. Stevenson. No, sir; I had never seen him before, as far as I know.

Mr. Hubert. Had you seen him in the crowd?

Mr. Stevenson. No, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Did Ruby say anything in your presence that you yourself heard?

Mr. Stevenson. Not that I heard myself.

Mr. Hubert. Did you give any orders concerning the search of Ruby's automobile?

Mr. Stevenson. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. Hubert. Will you tell us what they were, please?

Mr. Stevenson. I don't recall who contacted me or called me and told me where his car was on the parking station near the Western Union, advising me that he had a dog in the car, a dog of some kind.

I contacted my Automobile Theft Bureau, which handles and is responsible for all impounded cars, and asked Lieutenant Smart to go up and get the car.

He took someone with him, I don't recall who, to impound the automobile, search it, and take everything out of it that he could find.

Mr. Hubert. Now you did not get your information about the location of the car from Ruby himself?

Mr. Stevenson. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. Hubert. And you think you got it from someone whose name you don't know or now remember?

Mr. Stevenson. I don't recall who it was. It is possible someone who had talked to Ruby, but now I can't say about that because I just don't recall who it was that advised me that his car was up there at the Western Union, but I did receive the information and directed Lieutenant Smart to get the car and search it thoroughly, impound it, and have the pound take the dog.

Mr. Hubert. So that when you did get the information about Ruby's car, you also got the information that there was a dog in it?

Mr. Stevenson. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Do you know who was assigned to control traffic at the corner of Main and Pearl? That is, by the Western Union Office?

Mr. Stevenson. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. Hubert. Or Main and Harwood?

Mr. Stevenson. No, sir; I don't.

106 Mr. Hubert. Now, you have made a statement, I think, to the FBI, have you not, sir?

Mr. Stevenson. Yes; I was interviewed by the FBI.

Mr. Hubert. I will hand you a document that I am going to mark now for identification as follows: Dallas, Tex., March 23, 1964, an Exhibit 5051, Deposition of Chief M. W. Stevenson. I am signing my name, and I would like you to read it, sir.

Mr. Stevenson. (Reads.)

Mr. Hubert. Now, Mr. Stevenson, you are signing it.

Do I take it by that, that that statement is correct, so far as you know?

At least that there are no errors in it?

Mr. Stevenson. As far as I can see, there are no errors. Only one thing on this, unless I missed it right here, this does not say anything of the change of plan.

Mr. Hubert. No?

Mr. Stevenson. It sure doesn't.

Mr. Hubert. Well, it just speaks for itself. But apparently you called to our attention an omission from that statement which has been covered by a part of this deposition, is that correct?

Mr. Stevenson. This was taken on the 25th. I guess that is right. Isn't that the date here?

Mr. Hubert. Yes; the 25th is correct.

Mr. Stevenson. I don't understand why that part was omitted, but I was interviewed, and there is nothing in here, as far as I am concerned, that is wrong, to my knowledge, with the exception of that omission of the change in method, of transfer.

Mr. Hubert. There may be other things also in your deposition that do not appear in that document which we have marked as Exhibit 5051.

Now I show you another document which I have marked "Dallas, Tex., March 23, 1964, Exhibit 5052, Deposition of M. W. Stevenson," and I have signed it with my own name. It is a part of the Commission Document 81-A, Page 95-A, and ask you, sir, if that is a correct statement of your interview with Captain Sawyer?

Mr. Stevenson. Yes, sir; it is. I might add on this one, this was to find out about our security, the reason this one was put out, and that is the reason they didn't go any further. You want me to sign this?

Mr. Hubert. Yes. As I understand you, that is correct, so far as it goes?

Mr. Stevenson. That's right.

Mr. Hubert. Would you care to state for the record, Chief Stevenson, what, in your opinion, was the cause of the breakdown of security which resulted in the death of Oswald?

Mr. Stevenson. Mr. Hubert, I don't know whether I can tell you the cause or not, but there is no doubt we had a breakdown. And if our investigation is right, it was at the Main Street ramp into the basement through which Ruby claimed that he walked down that ramp while this officer had his back turned. And our investigation showed that he did leave the Western Union Office some 4 or 4½ minutes prior to the shooting.

Our breakdown, although this is my opinion, it was unintentional on the part of Officer Vaughn, in my opinion, he did come down that ramp.

Mr. Hubert. Is there anything else you would like to say, sir, concerning any part of this matter whatsoever?

Mr. Stevenson. Mr. Hubert, I don't recall a thing that I haven't attempted to cover. However, if there is anything that I have not covered, I will be glad to attempt to or to answer any questions that you might think pertinent to it, and anything that I have failed to cover has been unintentional, I assure you.

Mr. Hubert. I simply want to give you an opportunity now to say anything else that you might want to say, realizing, of course, that there may be other things which don't come to your mind at the moment, but I would like you to think about it and tell us if there is anything at all that has not appeared in any statement you have made or in any part of this deposition.

Mr. Stevenson. The only thing that I could say that comes to my mind107 at the present is, up until Oswald was killed in the basement, we felt like we had built a good case on Oswald as the slayer of President Kennedy, and we felt we had done a good job on the arrest and the accumulation of the evidence.

We just had a breakdown. We were let down unintentionally, in my opinion, from the investigation, by one officer that permitted Ruby to get into the basement.

Mr. Hubert. Have you made any other statement, Mr. Stevenson, other than those that you have identified as Exhibits 5051 and 5052?

Mr. Stevenson. Not to my knowledge that I recall, other than the overall chronological report that we made to the chief of police regarding the entire operation and plan for the visit of the President all the way through until Oswald was slain by Ruby in the basement.

Mr. Hubert. Was that a joint report?

Mr. Stevenson. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Tell us who prepared that.

Mr. Stevenson. It was Chief Batchelor, Chief Lumpkin, myself, Chief Fisher, Chief Lunday, Captain Souter, and all of the supervisors who had a definite responsibility in preparing and carrying out the plans for the President's visit to our city on November the 22d.

Mr. Hubert. Was that a written report?

Mr. Stevenson. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Do you have a copy of that, sir?

Mr. Stevenson. It's in this. I believe I have it. (Looking.)

It isn't in there, sir. I believe that is the entire report.

(Handing papers to Mr. Hubert.)

I don't think it would be in there. That is our security investigation report, Mr. Hubert. You will find that that is signed by Chief Batchelor, Chief Lumpkin, and myself.

All of the officers did not sign it. We merely got their version, their reports and things and incorporated them in one chronological report.

Mr. Hubert. You have, Mr. Stevenson, handed me a document consisting of 34 numbered pages, the first page apparently being unnumbered, dated November 30, 1963, addressed to Mr. J. E. Curry, chief of police, and bearing on page 34, the typed names of Charles Batchelor, George Lumpkin, and M. W. Stevenson.

You have also stated to me that this copy was available to the Commission.

I am therefore marking it as follows:

"Dallas, Tex., March 23, 1964, Exhibit 5053, Deposition of M. W. Stevenson." I am signing it with my name, Leon D. Hubert, Jr.

I am going to ask you to sign your name under mine, and I am initialling myself, each one of the pages, and I would appreciate it, if you would also initial each one of the pages.

I am placing my initials on each one of the pages in the lower right-hand corner of each page.

Mr. Stevenson. (Initials each page.)

Mr. Hubert. Mr. Stevenson, I have now signed the first page under my signature, that being the unnumbered page. I ask you if you have checked the sequence of pages thereafter and find that they run in perfect sequence 1 through 34, page 34, being the last page?

Mr. Stevenson. I have.

Mr. Hubert. You have also placed your initials on each one of those pages in the lower right-hand corner below my signature, is that correct?

Mr. Stevenson. I have.

Mr. Hubert. The original of this was signed by you, sir?

Mr. Stevenson. By Chief Batchelor, Chief Lumpkin, and myself.

Mr. Hubert. And you delivered that to Chief Curry?

Mr. Stevenson. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Now, have you been interviewed by any of the Commission staff prior to the taking of this deposition?

Mr. Stevenson. No, sir; I have not.

108 Mr. Hubert. Well, let me correct you. You were interviewed by me just before the beginning of this deposition?

Mr. Stevenson. Yes; I was. I answered too quick then.

Mr. Hubert. That interview took place this afternoon for about an hour and a half, I think, immediately preceding the time that we started to take the deposition?

Mr. Stevenson. That's right.

Mr. Hubert. You have not been interviewed by any other member of the Commission staff except that interview with me?

Mr. Stevenson. No, sir; I have not.

Mr. Hubert. Can you tell me whether you perceive any inconsistency between the deposition you have given and the interview that I conducted with you prior to the taking of the deposition?

Mr. Stevenson. No, sir; I don't believe I can see any inconsistency.

I did do this at your request, or I say with your permission I looked over some of my notes before the taking of this, and the only thing that I think was any change made was in answer to Captain Talbert's question as to what the route of transfer would be.

I think when I discussed it with you prior to the taking of this deposition, I told you that we told him we thought it would go down Elm. When I reviewed my notes, it was Main Street that we had told him.

Mr. Hubert. Now do you know of any other material information that was covered in the interview that preceded this deposition which has not been developed during the deposition?

Mr. Stevenson. No, sir; not that I recall.

Mr. Hubert. I think that is all unless you have anything else.

Mr. Stevenson. I don't recall a thing else, Mr. Hubert.

Mr. Hubert. Thank you very much.

TESTIMONY OF CAPT. CECIL E. TALBERT

The testimony of Capt. Cecil E. Talbert was taken at 7:30 p.m., on March 24, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. Hubert. This is the deposition of Capt. Cecil T. Talbert, patrol division, Dallas Police Department.

My name is Leon D. Hubert, Jr.; I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel of the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy. Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, joint resolution of Congress 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the Commission in conformance with the Executive order and the joint resolutions, I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you, Captain Talbert. I will state to you now that the general nature of the Commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald.

In particular as to you, Captain Talbert, the nature of the inquiry tonight is to to determine the facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry of the Commission. Now, Captain Talbert, you have appeared here tonight by virtue of a general request made by the general counsel of the staff of the President's Commission, Mr. J. Lee Rankin. Under the rules adopted by the Commission, you are entitled to a 3-day written notice prior to the taking of this deposition, but those rules also provide that a witness may waive the 3-day notice in writing. Are you willing to waive that notice?

Captain Talbert. I'd like to waive it, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Now, will you stand and be sworn?

109 Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Captain Talbert. I do.

Mr. Hubert. Will you please state your name?

Captain Talbert. Cecil Earl Talbert.

Mr. Hubert. Your age?

Captain Talbert. I am 44.

Mr. Hubert. Your residence?

Captain Talbert. 1211 Toltec, Dallas.

Mr. Hubert. What is your present occupation, sir?

Captain Talbert. Police department. Captain of patrol division.

Mr. Hubert. How long have you been with the police department?

Captain Talbert. Seventeen years.

Mr. Hubert. How long have you held the rank of captain?

Captain Talbert. You will have to forgive me just a minute.

Mr. Hubert. Well, just approximately is all right.

Captain Talbert. January 26, 1960.

Mr. Hubert. What are your duties and responsibilities on the Dallas Police Force?

Captain Talbert. I have a patrol platoon. Three captains assigned to the patrol division. Each has a platoon. We rotate around the clock and while on duty would have the patrol function.

Mr. Hubert. That is the patrol function throughout the city.

Captain Talbert. Throughout the city; yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Who is your immediate superior?

Captain Talbert. Chief Fisher; N. T. Fisher.

Mr. Hubert. And he is head of the patrol division in general?

Captain Talbert. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Three captains under him?

Captain Talbert. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Who are the other captains?

Captain Talbert. J. M. Souter relieves me, and Capt. William Frazier, who relieves Souter.

Mr. Hubert. Were you in that same position with the same duties and responsibilities on the 24th of November 1963?

Captain Talbert. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Were you on duty on the 23d of November 1963?

Captain Talbert. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. What hours did you serve then?

Captain Talbert. Seven to three.

Mr. Hubert. 7 a.m. to 3 p.m.?

Captain Talbert. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Did you go off duty at 3 p.m. on the 23d?

Captain Talbert. Close to that, I mean close to that time; yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. At the time you went off duty about 3 p.m. on the 23d of November, had you been informed of any plans for a transfer of Oswald to the county jail?

Captain Talbert. Not by police supervisors. I had heard the information the chief had given the news media who had insisted on setting up their equipment in our jail office, or adjacent to the jail office, and he insisted that they not set it up there, and that they would be in the general public way, and only that they could report after 10 o'clock on the next day.

Mr. Hubert. Now, you didn't hear that from the chief himself?

Captain Talbert. Not from the chief. Only—that is hearsay.

Mr. Hubert. You obtained from the radio or television or newspapers?

Captain Talbert. Possibly radio and newspapers, yes, sir. You might know we were attentive to all news media at the time.

Mr. Hubert. Now, what time, then, did you go on duty on the 24th?

Captain Talbert. The morning of the 24th I reported when—I gave my time of duty as 7 to 3. Actually, we report about an hour early so that we can prepare the platoon, or any revision in the platoon that we have to make. So, at approximately 6 o'clock, I reported to our office and relieved Captain Frazier.

110 Mr. Hubert. Now, at the time that you relieved Captain Frazier, did he convey any information to you?

Captain Talbert. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Tell us what he said?

Captain Talbert. Said he had a communication with Sheriff Decker and Mr. Newsom, with the FBI, and both were anxious to transfer Oswald at the time. Transfer him immediately to the county jail, and that he had been unable to contact the chief due to a phone malfunction. That he couldn't call him.

Mr. Hubert. Did he tell you what time he had received that information?

Captain Talbert. He did; but I don't recall what time, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Did he tell you of any security plans that had been made to transfer Oswald?

Captain Talbert. No, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Did he tell you of any security plans that should be made, or had been ordered?

Captain Talbert. No, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Did he then go off duty? I am talking about Captain Frazier now.

Captain Talbert. Yes, sir; I relieved him and he went off duty.

Mr. Hubert. What did you do then with reference to the transfer?

Captain Talbert. Continued his efforts to contact the chief through—going through the telephone exchange. I wanted to contact him by telephone. He had contacted Captain Fritz with the information from both Mr. Newsom and the sheriff, and Captain Fritz said he couldn't transfer him until the chief authorized it.

Mr. Hubert. Did you talk to Fritz yourself?

Captain Talbert. No, sir; that was conveyed to me by Captain Frazier before he left.

Mr. Hubert. I see.

Captain Talbert. And I got the telephone company to put a buzzer on the chief's line, and there is no response, and they have something that is louder than a buzzer. I can't recall the term they use, but you have to get permission from the chief operator to utilize that. I had that put on the chief's line, and still no response. Obviously the line was defective, so, I had a squad sent to the chief's home with the request that he call me.

Mr. Hubert. Did he call you?

Captain Talbert. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. From his home?

Captain Talbert. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Was his phone out of order?

Captain Talbert. I don't know, sir, but by all appearances, it was out of order. I think that latter item I was speaking of was around the entire neighborhood, almost. It is quite loud, even though a phone may be off the hook.

Mr. Hubert. What did you say to the chief?

Captain Talbert. I repeated the conversation that Frazier had told me that the sheriff had told him, and also Mr. Newsom had told him about two calls received by the FBI office during the night. Both by men speaking in a calm voice and both conveyed the same message that before Oswald reached the county jail "A hundred of us will see that he is dead." And the request by Sheriff Decker, and Mr. Newsom, that he be transferred immediately.

Mr. Hubert. It was your understanding that Newsom had received a message twice?

Captain Talbert. His office. Not Mr. Newsom personally. His office.

Mr. Hubert. I see. Do you know whether any such message had also been received by the sheriff's office independently?

Captain Talbert. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. Hubert. What time did you convey that information?

Captain Talbert. It was approximately 6:30, my conversation with Chief Curry.

Mr. Hubert. Did he give you any instructions?

Captain Talbert. He said if I would call the sheriff and Mr. Newsom, tell them that he would be in his office between 8 and 9, and he would contact them.

111 Mr. Hubert. Did you do that?

Captain Talbert. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. All right. After that, what did you occupy yourself with?

Captain Talbert. The usual duty of getting my platoon on duty and balancing the detail.

Mr. Hubert. Did you do anything looking toward the ultimate transfer of Oswald?

Captain Talbert. Not at that time; no, sir.

Mr. Hubert. When did you begin to do anything with reference to the transfer?

Captain Talbert. Approximately 9 a.m. Traffic was building up rather heavy on the downtown streets. Primarily on Commerce, people going by the intersection of Commerce and Houston and the—viewing the Book Depository Building, and we had a few people gathering on Commerce Street side of the city hall.

Mr. Hubert. Did you ever see them gathering on the Main Street side?

Captain Talbert. No, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Do you know why?

Captain Talbert. Evidently the people who were gathering realized that our exit side was Commerce and our entrance side was Main.

Mr. Hubert. Is that a fact?

Captain Talbert. That is a fact.

Mr. Hubert. That is to say internally, your traffic goes from Main to Commerce, and goes no other way?

Captain Talbert. That's right.

Mr. Hubert. That is a one-way ramp?

Captain Talbert. Yes, sir; all of our vehicles enter on Main Street and exit on Commerce Street.

Mr. Hubert. Of course, there is no physical reason why it couldn't be the opposite?

Captain Talbert. Yes, sir; there is. Commerce is one way, and makes it more difficult to—Oh, I'm sorry. There is no physical reason.

Mr. Hubert. No. That's all right. You have explained it. You had misunderstood what I meant when I said, "physical."

Captain Talbert. Sure.

Mr. Hubert. Actually, it is an internal rule, that is, a normal rule because of the fact that Commerce is a one-way street.

Captain Talbert. The accessibility to the street.

Mr. Hubert. Main is a two-way street?

Captain Talbert. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. What time did Chief Curry come in?

Captain Talbert. I don't know, sir. I didn't see him all day.

Mr. Hubert. You didn't see him all day on the 24th?

Captain Talbert. No, sir. I mean I don't recall having seen him. I didn't converse with him. If I saw him I didn't converse with him.

Mr. Hubert. Did you take any action about looking to the movement or transfer and the security thereof, of Oswald?

Captain Talbert. That is a very broad statement and can we narrow it down into my actions taken of any probable disturbance that we might have around the city hall?

Mr. Hubert. Just tell us what you did.

Captain Talbert. All right, sir. At 9, or about, Lieutenant Pierce, that is Sam Pierce.

Mr. Hubert. That is Rio Pierce?

Captain Talbert. Sam.

Mr. Hubert. Sam Pierce?

Captain Talbert. Rio Sam Pierce. R. S. Pierce. [spelling] R-i-o, just like the river. Rio Sam Pierce is my central area lieutenant, and I talked the situation over with him about the traffic problem, and the people that were giving the appearance of going to start gathering on the Commerce Street side, and what we should do about the possible security around the city hall. It would have to alleviate having to call the squads in over the dispatcher.

112 At the time, we were working on a Sunday detail, which is one of our smallest. Sunday is a less active day, and we have fewer people working on Sunday, that is, than we do any other. That is the day we try to get most of our—not "most," I'm sorry, that is a poor term. We cut our detail down on Sunday due to the fact that police activity is light. So, I talked it over with him about what we should do about the method of security of the area, and finally decided that if—for him to pull three squads from each of the three substations, and four squads out of the central station, and to pick two-men squads where possible so that we could build up the total number of men that we had as quick as possible.

This second platoon, the day platoon, works primarily one-man squads, and our two-man squads are trainee squads. The trainees work with an older officer and create a two-man squad there. Could you leave this off just a moment? That is something——

Mr. Hubert. All right; off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. Hubert. All right; then, you decided to set up some system of security for the police department building?

Captain Talbert. I further told Lieutenant Pierce to have the basement cleared of all personnel. Have them searched. Thorough search, and secure it, letting only the authorized news media and police officers into the basement.

Mr. Hubert. What——

Captain Talbert. The basement area that——

Mr. Hubert. What system of authorizing newsmen was in use?

Captain Talbert. Using their press identification.

Mr. Hubert. Had that been issued specially?

Captain Talbert. That is the general order, 81, I believe that is the number of it. I don't know whether you want to include that in here or not. I believe general order 81, is that we would utilize—this is a long-standing—that we will utilize the normal press identification to permit news media into scenes of incident areas. The amateurs, bystanders, were kept out because they don't have those identification——

Mr. Hubert. Is that an identification commonly known to police personnel?

Captain Talbert. They scrutinize it. No, sir; each could utilize these different types, but you have to scrutinize their identification.

Mr. Hubert. Do you say that you permit these persons to enter, but civilians without news identification could not enter?

Captain Talbert. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. That was in effect that day?

Captain Talbert. I utilized it.

Mr. Hubert. Well, I mean, the order was in effect?

Captain Talbert. It had not been revoked.

Mr. Hubert. So, you utilized it?

Captain Talbert. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Therefore, it was determined that when you were clearing out the basement, you would clear out all persons who were not police officers or news media properly identified?

Captain Talbert. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Now, can you tell me why you did that as to the basement?

Captain Talbert. The basement—I am using a very loose term in "basement," I meant, and did convey to Lieutenant Pierce, "the area," in which Oswald would be—if he was transferred, and I used that term, "if he was transferred," I didn't know that he would be. Although, our basement was becoming cluttered with newsmen at that time.

Mr. Hubert. Had you been told by anyone that Oswald would be removed from the upper story of the building by use of the jail elevators to the jail office, and from the jail office through the jail corridor into the basement ramps.

Captain Talbert. At that time; no, sir.

Mr. Hubert. But——

Captain Talbert. But, of my own knowledge that is the only way he could be removed to a car unless he went through another floor and out on the street. That is the way you go in the normal police building area.

113 Mr. Hubert. And do you mean that the normal method for handling would be one where he would be brought to the elevator to the jail office, and into the basement?

Captain Talbert. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Now, would you state just what you did by way of clearing the basement area?

Captain Talbert. Lieutenant Pierce gave the assignment to Sergeant Dean, and in turn to Sergeant Putnam to carry out, and in various stages of the searching of the basement I think he checked it himself, at approximately 10 o'clock, and I gave, by the way, the initial instructions to bring those squads in. I told them to disperse their cars, park them on the street, but disperse them. Not have them grouped up, and to report to my office by at least 9:30, and he did have that accomplished, and he gave the instructions to clear the area and search it to Sergeant Dean, who got Sergeant Putnam to assist him in it. About 10 o'clock, I went down to check and see how he had progressed at that time. They had checked the news media, they were set up in the jail office. The jail office proper. They had cameramen, cameras, reporters on top of the booking desk, on top of everything available. The news media was taking over the jail office rather heavily, and insisted the chief had given them permission to do so. That was about 10. I went into the basement area and Sergeant Putnam gave me a lengthy rundown, step by step, on what he had done, or had done—see what I mean about my English?—and had accomplished in clearing that area, and I personally checked all the doors to the several rooms that led from the parking area to see that they were locked.

Mr. Hubert. Can you specify for the record what doors you did check?

Captain Talbert. Starting in around on the side of the ramp, janitor's room. Could you hold it a minute and let me see if I can identify it?

Mr. Hubert. All right.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. Hubert. All right. Now, I think we'll get on the record.

Captain Talbert. Shall we just say "checked the painters' room"?

Mr. Hubert. No; I want to get more particular points than that. Now, since you are about to describe your activities with reference to a definite area, I want to show you a map or chart of the basement and jail office area, and in order that we may properly use it in connection with your testimony, it is necessary for me to identify it. Therefore, I am marking it, "Dallas, Texas, March the 24th, 1964. Exhibit 5070, deposition of Capt. C. E. Talbert." And I am signing my name to it, and for the purposes of identification, I'll ask you to sign your name just below mine. Now, you say that you, yourself made a personal check of what is shown on this Exhibit 5070, as the parking area?

Captain Talbert. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Wait. Where did you begin? Right in here?

Captain Talbert. Right about here, to here [indicating].

Mr. Hubert. Now, I am marking with a numeral, "1" in a circle, a point that you have indicated to me as the starting point of your inspection tour, and exactly just what did you do there?

Captain Talbert. Well, that's——

Mr. Hubert. And then I am going to ask you to just simply draw a line as to the general portion that you want, and whenever you stopped, we will mark the stop with No. "2, 3 and so forth", and just use this map and mark it in that way, keeping in mind that you must speak in such a way that a person who reads this later on may be able to understand the movements. Now, you are starting at a point that is marked No. "1" in a circle?

Captain Talbert. I checked the door No. "1", which is the painters' room to see that it was properly locked. I proceeded to the doctor's room, and I checked it.

Mr. Hubert. And you are marking that——

Captain Talbert. That is "2."

Mr. Hubert. "2" in a circle?

Captain Talbert. I asked what has been done about the doctor's services. Sergeant Putnam told me he had moved that doctor out of that room and into the police locker room.

114 Mr. Hubert. Did you check those doors?

Captain Talbert. Checked the door to see that it was locked, and it was; yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. It was locked from the outside? Could somebody in there have come in?

Captain Talbert. There should have been no one in there, because there is no entrance to it.

Mr. Hubert. Did you check in the doctor's room?

Captain Talbert. No, sir; I had no key to get in. The doctor and the porter would have the key, but I didn't have. I went to this [indicating]. This is the stairway, and this—there is another—there is another stairway coming in here [indicating].

Mr. Hubert. From point "2"?

Captain Talbert. Actually, this is—can you stop?

Mr. Hubert. Yes.

(Discussion off the record.)

Captain Talbert. I went to point "3" and tried the other door which was locked externally. Went to point "4"——

Mr. Hubert. Before you leave point "3," did you know whether that door was locked from the other side?

Captain Talbert. No, sir.

Mr. Hubert. So, that a person in the stairwell——

Captain Talbert. That is not the stairwell, sir, that is the second door of the first aid station.

Mr. Hubert. Oh, the second door of the first aid station?

Captain Talbert. "3" it is the second door of the first aid station. "4" to the stairwell leading downstairs to a subbasement, engineroom, and leading from the first floor down to the basement area is a fire escape type—that door was secured from the outside.

Mr. Hubert. Do you know if anybody on the inside of that door could have come from the stairwell into the basement?

Captain Talbert. Yes, sir; it has—that particular door, I have since learned—I didn't know it at that time, but I have since learned that that particular door has a fire escape type latch. That bar-type latch, and I did check and find that the first floor—not the basement, but the first floor of the city hall had its interior door, both on the Commerce Street, Main Street, and the hallway locked. It is a procedure that they use over the weekend, and after 6 p.m., in the afternoon, those doors are locked, so, anyone not in the building at the time wouldn't have had access to this unless someone unlocked it for them.

Mr. Hubert. Did you check those entrances at the first floor of the municipal building on the 24th?

Captain Talbert. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. How did you do that?

Captain Talbert. As I recall, just from the—this particular time after finishing this search, I went to the sidewalk area on Commerce, and into the entrance that is left open for payment of water bills and the interior door there was secure and locked.

Mr. Hubert. So, then a person could not get into the first floor of the city hall through that door on Commerce Street?

Captain Talbert. Yes, sir; and in further checking around the building I went through the police courts building and in checking the Main Street door and then, in turn, checked the Main Street entrance, and it was locked.

Mr. Hubert. Main Street entrance to the municipal building?

Captain Talbert. To the municipal building.

Mr. Hubert. And it was locked?

Captain Talbert. And it was locked; yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Now, did you check the several entrances on the alleyway which runs from Main to about halfway up the block and makes an L-turn and then runs to Pearl?

Captain Talbert. I did not check that entrance, because the thing is locked any time after 6, and on the weekends. We can't enter that way. Matter of fact, we have orders not to enter that way at anytime, but sometimes we, in115 parking, we find it convenient to enter through that elevator and the service elevator from that entrance, and we always find it locked. We have to get a porter's attention by banging on the door to get it unlocked.

Mr. Hubert. Since we are on that subject, how would you go through that service entrance on the alleyway into the first floor of the municipal building?

Captain Talbert. The service entrance has some side doors leading off of it. I don't know whether they are broom closets, or go into rooms or what, but into the service elevator, both sides of the elevator has operable doors.

Mr. Hubert. That is—so call it the Harwood side on the elevator, and the Pearl Street side.

Captain Talbert. This is going to the Central Expressway over here [indicating].

Mr. Hubert. Yes.

Captain Talbert. And, so, the—the expressway side and the Harwood Street side has doors that do open. Both sides of that elevator have doors that would open, and the operator could open either one of them, and you can come in from the entrance and exit from this Harwood Street side. Enter from the expressway side and exit from the Harwood Street side.

Mr. Hubert. If it were possible for a person to gain entrance through the service entrance into the first floor of the municipal building by use of the service elevator, that is to say, by walking through both of the doors of the elevator, he could then get into the stairwell of the fire escape on the first floor, could he not?

Captain Talbert. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. And by walking down to the basement level at the point——

Captain Talbert. Designated "4"?

Mr. Hubert. Designated "4," he could get into the basement area in that way.

Captain Talbert. Yes, sir; but we had an operator on the service elevator with instructions not to allow anyone to basement, and he was—allowed no one to come in.

Mr. Hubert. Do you know who that person was?

Captain Talbert. I believe his name is Mitchell, sir, to the best of my memory, is his name.

Mr. Hubert. Is he a member of the police department?

Captain Talbert. No, sir; he is a porter, a colored porter who works within the city hall building, itself.

Mr. Hubert. Did you talk to that man?

Captain Talbert. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. What did you tell him?

Captain Talbert. At the time, I told him to take his elevator up on the first floor. I put the parking attendant on that elevator, or instructed the parking attendant to get on that elevator and go up to the first floor, and for the parking attendant to maintain a vigil lookout on this elevator marked Nos. "1" and "2" here, which will be "5" and "6" in my route. I told him to see that no one came nearby those elevators, and told the operator of the service elevator to stay on it, and not bring anyone to the basement.

Mr. Hubert. Who was the parking attendant?

Captain Talbert. I'm going to have to utilize his nickname, and it is rather far-afield. I should know his name. His nickname is "King," it is one we have used for quite some time.

Mr. Hubert. Is he a member of the police department?

Captain Talbert. No, sir; he is a colored parking attendant who works for the municipal garage.

Mr. Hubert. Do you know whether he carried out your orders, Captain Talbert?

Captain Talbert. To my knowledge, he did. I don't know that he did, but to my knowledge, he did.

Mr. Hubert. You don't know to the contrary then?

Captain Talbert. No, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Well, will you continue, then, your security search which we had left off, I think, at a point marked "4"?

Captain Talbert. I went from point "4," the elevator—the stairwell, to the116 elevator. The first service elevator to the building on the—not service elevator, delete that, young lady—first elevator in the building marked "1", here, but will be marked "5" in this route. And that door was closed. Went to the next elevator which was immediately adjacent to the first one marked "6," that door was closed, indicating the elevator was not on that floor. These are automatic elevators and the doors would be open if it was. Then went to the service elevator, and had the foregoing conversation with the operator and the parking attendant. That is marked No. "7."

Mr. Hubert. All right, just continue your search?

Captain Talbert. From that area, or in that immediate area I had another discussion with Sergeant Putnam and asked him about the engineroom elevator, this elevator being on the extreme corner of the parking area on Commerce Street, next to the ramp. This elevator comes from the engineroom to the parking area only, and doesn't go to the first floor. Anyone entering through that elevator would have to be in the engineroom, which is a subbasement, to enter into this basement. That is the only place it goes. One floor.

Mr. Hubert. And you have marked that how?

Captain Talbert. Marked that "8." Sergeant Putnam had placed a reserve officer at that point to——

Mr. Hubert. All right. Now, were any other reserve officers placed in the parking area, to your knowledge, or any other officers for that matter?

Captain Talbert. May I mark on——

Mr. Hubert. Surely.

Captain Talbert. A reserve officer whose name I do not recall, was placed at a point marked "9," with the instructions not to permit anyone to enter the parking area from the elevators or stairwell. But a reserve officer was placed in the point marked "8." We—I think we have that in the deposition now. Reserve officers were, at that time, brought forward when I asked if the conduits had been searched, the top of the conduits, and—the air-conditioning conduits, if they had been searched. They brought the two reserve officers forward who had the filthiest uniforms. It was quite obvious that they had been crawling around on top of them. They had searched them, and I took their condition to state that their search had been thorough and the fact that Sergeants Putnam and Dean told me that they had covered each one, that the engines, engine compartments, the trucks as well as the vehicles parked in the basement had been searched for possible hiding places, and all of this was accomplished. After the search was accomplished, after officers were placed in the adjacent ramps on the Commerce Street side, on the Main Street side, and from the lobby of the police building marked "10," lobby of the police building into the area in front of the jail office leading into the ramp area—may I mark the places where the officers were now? The reserve officers—we are getting a—can I hold it for a minute?

Mr. Hubert. Yes.

(Discussion off the record.)

Captain Talbert. All right, now, I will go ahead and mark the area where we had each——

Mr. Hubert. Yes; you marked "10," that you had an officer there.

Captain Talbert. I had an officer and—a reserve officer was at "11." Two detectives were—Lowery and Beaty—Beaty and Lowery. "12" and "13" most of this period. Number "14" on the Main Street entrance to the police ramp was Vaughn, R. E. Vaughn, and number "15" and "16" were Patrolman Jez and Patrolman Patterson.

Mr. Hubert. Now, did you ever order the reserve officer at the point "9" removed?

Captain Talbert. No, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Do you know that he had been?

Captain Talbert. No, sir; at 11 o'clock, when the detail was made up to put traffic men on Elm Street, it was gathered in that area, and that man was in place at that time, at 11.

Mr. Hubert. Do you know that?

Captain Talbert. If he was moved after 11 I don't know who moved him or where he went, but the reserve officer "9" was in place at that time.

117 Mr. Hubert. You don't know what his name was?

Captain Talbert. I believe Brock is going to be his name, but I am not sure.

Mr. Hubert. I think it is Brock. Now, then, you mentioned something about drawing off persons to patrol the intersection of Elm Street?

Captain Talbert. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Would you tell us something about that, please?

Captain Talbert. We had kept as many officers out of the basement area as possible to keep from adding to the confusion of the search so we could make a systematic search, and I had retained all of the excess officers, and, as I recall, numbered about 13 regular police officers in my office and the reserve officers, and excesses were retained in an assembly room which would be behind the jail office, and after about 11—let's back up and make that about 10:45—in that vicinity, Chief Stevenson and Chief Lumpkin contacted me about the route of the proposed transfer of Lee Harvey Oswald, and they asked—correction—I asked if we were going to use marked cars or plain cars, or if we were going to utilize sirens to stop traffic at intersections?

Chief Stevenson said he didn't want any attention attracted to the transfer that wasn't already attracted to it, and asked if I had enough personnel to put in the intersection of Elm Street. First he said Main Street. The first route planned was Main, and it was changed to Elm before I could so disperse the personnel, so, actually, we utilized Elm all through this.

Mr. Hubert. Just as it was?

Captain Talbert. And they said first Main and then before—after I had removed the men from my office to the ramp—not the ramp area, but the parking area and told Sergeant Dean and Sergeant Steele to place them on each intersection to stop traffic for the lights as the people making the transfer approached them. Found then that it was to be Elm Street instead of Main, that it was to be Elm rather than Main and the traffic could go—the reason being that they could swing off of Elm into Houston, directly into the prisoner loading area of the sheriff's office, and those 13 men were placed by Sergeant Steele at each intersection. He didn't have enough. I instructed him that he obtain any additional men he might need from the captain who was in the area of the county jail, and he later called me by phone and told me of the traffic conditions down there, and I had an estimate, I don't recall whether from him or some other officer of the approximate number of people in that area, said around 600 or so gathered up around the county jail; so I instructed Steele to have each one of the men fall in behind or follow fairly closely behind the conveying vehicle so they would be available for any trouble that might develop around the county jail.

Mr. Hubert. Were you ever told by anyone of the plans of the transfer?

Captain Talbert. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. That is, the ultimate plan or the——

Captain Talbert. Well——

Mr. Hubert. Any sequence of plans?

Captain Talbert. After the plans had been instituted, Lieutenant Pierce, who I had sent to the homicide bureau previously to see if we could be of any assistance, or see if he could do anything—I didn't see him enter the basement, but as he pulled up onto the ramp—or in an effort to enter the ramp, he stopped his vehicle and called me over and asked me to get in his car. I opened the door, got in on the right-hand side of his car and he told me my—I omitted something, I believe, about this armored car, haven't I? Do you want that in there?

Mr. Hubert. We'll come back to it.

Captain Talbert. All right. He told me that he had been instructed to take a car out and get in front of the armored car which was backed into the ramp on the Commerce Street side and to lead the armored car. He was to be the lead vehicle and the armored car, it would go up northbound on Central to Elm, west on Elm and swing in off of Elm on to Houston Street. That two plain cars would pull up behind of the armored car. The prisoner would actually be in the last plain car, and the first plain car would be full of armed homicide officers, and it would cut off on Main Street, west. It would leave the city hall with the cavalcade, and when it hit Main Street the two plain118 cars with the homicide officers in them with the prisoner would make a left and go west and the armored car and the lead vehicle there would continue to Elm and then west. The two vehicles, or rather the two groups of vehicles would be paralleling each other. One on Main, and one on Elm.

Mr. Hubert. Do you know what the plans were with reference to the controlling of traffic on Main Street on which the prisoner was actually going to be transferred?

Captain Talbert. No, sir; that was the first information I had is the fact that the prisoner would not be in the armored car. Up until that point, I assumed he would be in the armored car.

Mr. Hubert. But, at that point, it became apparent that he was not going to be in the armored car?

Captain Talbert. Right.

Mr. Hubert. You had already set up a traffic-control system by having assigned men at various intervals on Elm?

Captain Talbert. Elm; yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. But, if they were going to use Main Street, what control would be used for cross traffic, crossing Main Street?

Captain Talbert. I have no knowledge, sir. Probably normal transportation, more than likely. That is strictly my idea.

Mr. Hubert. Now, you said that you wanted to say something about the armored car.

Captain Talbert. Yes, sir; I had previously been instructed about the armored car by Chief Stevenson and Chief Lumpkin, that was at the time they asked that the officers be placed on Main, and later transferred in to Elm Street, and at the instruction I had, was to have a man be observant, to make sure that the armored car didn't hit—didn't jam it into the overhead of the rampworks.

When the armored car arrived they did back it into the Commerce Street side, and the driver left it up near the front of the ramp because of its weight, rather than height. Although, due to its height, it couldn't have backed much farther down the ramp, but he was afraid that due to the weight of the car the—it wouldn't pull it out. The engine wouldn't have enough power to pull it out of the ramp, and so it was left in that position until after Lieutenant Pierce pulled the plain car that was his normal assignment car, I think equipment 239, although, that is irrelevant, attempted to pull it up the ramp. He couldn't get through the news media, which I would like to add to a little later. I previously had the news media in the jail office. Now, during one of my inspection trips I inspected the first floor of the Police and Courts Building from the doors for Harwood and Main Street to see that there was no congestion, and also, to look the crowds over on Commerce, and during one of my trips, or perhaps I was contacting the dispatcher—I was still conducting my regular patrol duties—the news media was moving from the jail office to the ramps to clear the jail office of them.

Mr. Hubert. Did you supervise that movement?

Captain Talbert. No, sir; Chief Batchelor arrived and was told of the preparation that had been made in the basement, and I assumed looked at the office. I wasn't present, but I assume he looked in the office and asked that that news media be removed. He was talking to Sergeant Putnam and Sergeant Dean. I wasn't present, nor was Lieutenant Pierce there.

Mr. Hubert. So, the news media were moved out of the jail area and where did they then go?

Captain Talbert. I was told—and this by Sergeant Putnam—that they were first placed on each side of the ramp leading from Main and Commerce, and after the chief observed the conflict there, he had those on the Harwood Street side of the ramp moved across the ramp onto the Main Street side to keep—to make more room for vehicular traffic, and that, of course, was from Sergeant Putnam to me. I don't know what instigated——

Mr. Hubert. Well, did you have occasion to observe the news media in the ramp and parking areas just prior to the shooting of Oswald?

Captain Talbert. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Well, now, I think I should like to have you describe that, and in order to facilitate that, I am going to draw a general oblong figure which I am119 marking "Area A," and I'm going to draw another general oblong figure which I am marking "Area B," and I would like you to tell us for the record——

Captain Talbert. May I inject another——

Mr. Hubert. Well, then, I will mark another oblong area, which I will call Area C.

Captain Talbert. All right, sir.

Mr. Hubert. I would like you to describe that for the record—that is, what were the conditions of those areas particularly with reference to congestion of people?

Captain Talbert. Across from "Area A," there was complete double line and in some instances triple line of men. That was men with cameras and those without. Just the reporters who had no cameras, and in "Area B," in the center of "Area B" I——

Mr. Hubert. Before you leave "Area A," would you say that the men were shoulder to shoulder?

Captain Talbert. Oh, more than that. Crammed in there. Jammed——

Mr. Hubert. Touching each other?

Captain Talbert. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. And about three ranks back toward Main Street?

Captain Talbert. That is my impression, yes, sir, about three ranks back.

Mr. Hubert. Describe "Area B," then?

Captain Talbert. And "Area B," you had a railing as indicated here by a dotted line. In front of that railing you had at least two or—probably three ranks of people all the way down to the turnoff area, which is the beginning of "Area C." In the center of "Area D," there were two fixed cameras.

Mr. Hubert. Television cameras?

Captain Talbert. Television cameras, yes, sir. The others were movie or still cameras and other cameramen, or strictly reporters, and in "Area C," we had a fairly dense group in the immediate Main Street side, and two to three ranks over towards the Commerce Street side dividing it in half.

Now, immediately after Lieutenant Pierce informed me of the change in plans, we had to remove the people from the ramps so that he could get out on the Main Street side, and they immediately closed back up, and as he cleared the parking area to enter the ramp, a plain white or light-colored car pulled onto it, and pulled up behind the armored car on the Commerce Street side, and another plain light-colored car attempted to pull up behind him, but he wasn't up far enough, so, we had to holler at them to pull up a little further, which he did. That car was attempting to back in, and had to cut to the left in order to back up the vehicle—go to the right to get back into the jail-office entrance. That was my understanding of his efforts to do, and the news media was crowding in on him, so, that there was danger of him running over them with his vehicle, should it move. So, I was by the left front fender of that vehicle, Chief Batchelor was to my right, Captain O. A. Jones to my left and we were—and one or two—perhaps more reserve officers were there, too, pushing the news media back to let that car have room to maneuver.

Mr. Hubert. I am going to mark on the map an area which I am marking auto and——

Captain Talbert. All right, sir.

Mr. Hubert. With the understanding that the front of it indicated by an arrow is pointed toward Commerce Street?

Captain Talbert. All right, sir.

Mr. Hubert. All right. Now, would you mark the circle where you were about the time of the event you have just described?

Captain Talbert. This auto is angled in here.

Mr. Hubert. Maybe we had better angle it then.

Captain Talbert. Would you like that black pen?

Mr. Hubert. You do it. We, are changing the blue-pen marking because Captain Talbert indicates that the automobile was on an angle, and he is now marking it with the black pen. Would you put the word "auto," in that, please. Now, draw a circle and indicate where you were standing.

Captain Talbert. I was standing by the left front fender of the car, as I previously said.

120 Mr. Hubert. [Drawing a circle and indicating it number "7."]

Captain Talbert. Compared with the other, yes. And Chief Batchelor was standing just to the left front of the vehicle, and—I can't draw it in there with this circle correctly, but—we'll indicate that "18," Capt. O. A. Jones was standing to my left, or to the rear of the vehicle from me. Indicating that to be "19," and at the time that vehicle was attempting to back up, we had pushed them back far enough for it to maneuver. At the time it was attempting to back up, there was a muffled report, a muffled shot and bedlam broke out in the vicinity of the jail office entry into the ramp.

Mr. Hubert. Did you see the shot?

Captain Talbert. No, sir; I heard it, but did not see the shot and that there was my first knowledge that the prisoner was in the ramp area.

Mr. Hubert. Which way were you facing just before the shot?

Captain Talbert. Just before the shot, I was facing the crowd. I had faced, alternately, the automobile and the crowd, as we were attempting to get the thing back, and I was facing the crowd and could feel the automobile pushing against me, I was turning around and pushing back against the car, and as I made a little room, faced the crowd again and pushed them back.

Mr. Hubert. Did you see Lieutenant Pierce's car leave?

Captain Talbert. No, sir; I didn't see Lieutenant Pierce's car leave, because of the news media across "Area A." They screened it from me and also because of my preoccupation of getting these two plain cars up behind the armored vehicle.

Mr. Hubert. Do you know Ruby?

Captain Talbert. I know his face. I know his name. I know his reputation well. I don't know him personally.

Mr. Hubert. Have you ever met him before?

Captain Talbert. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Did you see him that day?

Captain Talbert. No, sir.

Mr. Hubert. I mean after the shot?

Captain Talbert. After the shot, yes, sir. I'm sorry. After the shot, or after this muffled report, I went over the back of the trunk of this automobile we were trying to back in. Because of these people pushing in I couldn't get—so, I went over the back trunk of it to get to the officers. I saw they were down, and the melee that was taking place, as news media was crowding around in on them, and I give them a little room, and saw both Oswald and another man there who was being dragged into the jail office by the other officer. As soon as we got some room for them to drag them in, I shouted to the top of the entrance both on Commerce and on Main—this may not give you the perspective scope correctly, but it is about 90 feet on—from the place of the shooting to the Main Street entrance. I shouted up to the entrance, "let nobody out," or "nobody out," or something to that effect, and shouted to the top past the armored car the same thing. "Nobody out," and officers on this door told them, "Nobody out," and then went into the jail office, and Ruby was lying on the jail office floor where—with the officers at the time, attempting to handcuff him, as I recall.

Mr. Hubert. Did you recognize him at that point?

Captain Talbert. I saw his face. That I recognized, but I didn't recognize him as "Ruby." I asked a question, and may I say this in front of the young lady? I have to apologize. Do you want it verbatim?

Mr. Hubert. Yes. I'm afraid so.

Captain Talbert. I asked the question—I said, "Who is this son-of-a-bitch?" And he was saying, "I'm Jack Ruby. Everybody knows me. I'm Jack Ruby." At the same time another officer, or perhaps to answer that—"That's Jack Ruby, he operates the Carousel Club."

Mr. Hubert. That was when you first recognized him?

Captain Talbert. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. As being someone that you knew?

Captain Talbert. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. You had not seen him prior to that time on that, day, to your knowledge?

Captain Talbert. No, sir, nor for 2 years prior to that, to my knowledge.121 Approximately 2 years prior to that I was having breakfast at the Pancake House at the Ramada Inn with other officers when a man going out—we were sitting down and the man was going out and passed by and stopped. Was—and he was obtrusively friendly with the other officer, one of them he knew. He knew Lieutenant Pierce who was with me, and Lieutenant Pierce introduced me to him, and from that point until the point where he was on the floor at the jail office, I don't recall having seen him, and the only reason that I remember the Pancake incident, it was after the incident I was reminded of the incident by Lieutenant Pierce. I don't recall of having met him at any time since the old days of his operation at the Silver Spur.

Mr. Hubert. Did you talk to him, or see him after that?

Captain Talbert. No, sir, I asked—at that time. I didn't know they had the gun. I didn't see the gun, so, I thought it was still in the crowd, and I asked Chief Batchelor for permission to put all of the news media in the police assembly room for interrogation, or somebody said, "I don't think we have the gun." One of the officers who was kneeling on Ruby—literally, you couldn't hardly see Ruby for this officer kneeling on him—said, "I have the gun." Or perhaps he said, "Graves has the gun." And then I told Chief Batchelor that it wouldn't be necessary to search them.

I got a batch of memo pads from the jail office and gave some of them to Sergeant Everett, passed some out myself, told the officers to get the names, identification and location at the time of the shooting of anyone before they let them out of the basement. Chief Batchelor had told me to go to Parkland and secure it. I immediately got in my car, got on there and told the dispatcher to gather up all of my squads and to have them to report to me code 3, at Parkland and followed the ambulance out to Parkland.

Mr. Hubert. When did you first hear that Ruby had stated that he had come down the Main Street ramp?

Captain Talbert. I started my own investigation. Of course, I had nothing to do with this official investigation of the incident in the basement, but it is only natural that a police officer and a police supervisor is going to instigate his own investigation. I started mine from the hospital on the phone, and that question would be impossible to answer. I may have heard it through the news media. I heard—may have heard it through another officer who had overheard what they said up in the jail. It could have been something of that sort. I couldn't tell you exactly, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Did you, in fact, conduct an independent investigation of your own?

Captain Talbert. Just a very cursory one, and during a very brief period until the official investigation got underway.

Mr. Hubert. How long a time would that have been?

Captain Talbert. Well, maybe——

Mr. Hubert. Put it this way, what did you do by way of instigating the investigation?

Captain Talbert. Contacted, attempted to ascertain how Ruby entered the ramp, or entered the parking area rather. I contacted each of my officers who were on the entrances, and I did that while I was at the hospital. That was before the death of—or during the operation on Oswald, and while we still had the hospital secured by the squads, and I contacted the supervisors who were there, and after that I was told that an official investigation would be conducted, and I dropped it.

Mr. Hubert. Would you say that it was about an hour?

Captain Talbert. No, sir; I wouldn't estimate the time.

Mr. Hubert. Did you contact Vaughn particularly?

Captain Talbert. Yes, sir; I had contacted Vaughn. Then contacted him the next day. I found that Vaughn had let one man in onto the ramp that he hadn't included in his report the next day. This man being a city employee, a—one who Vaughn thought was authorized to enter the ramp. He was Chenault, the mechanic in charge of the garage, so Chenault told Vaughn. This was not in Vaughn's report, but when Vaughn was broached with it, and this was on the 26th—I believe that could have been the 27th. Could you hold the——

Mr. Hubert. Well——

122 Captain Talbert. Let me just say that when Vaughn was broached with having described this one entry into the ramp, that was the day after his report had been written, and I had had a chance to review all the reports, I obtained a copy of all the officers' reports and let them stand even though some of them were conflicting and deleting things—now, these were not the officers on the door, but the officers on the street. That some of them conflicted about who told them to do what. But I didn't have them change them as I normally would, because of the incident, and also because of the nature of the incident, and also because of my involvement in this.

Mr. Hubert. Isn't it a fact that Vaughn had filed a report in which he failed to report that he had let Chenault go down the ramp?

Captain Talbert. Yes, sir; Vaughn, in his report, did not note anything about anyone coming in the ramp other than squad cars and the paddy wagon. No pedestrian traffic denoted, but when I went over it with him in the presence of Chief Fisher and Sergeant Putnam, he recalled—Vaughn without our having to bring it to his attention.

Mr. Hubert. He recalled Chenault?

Captain Talbert. I'm sorry. He recalled Chenault without our having to bring it to his attention and inserted it in his verbal report, and that was after the written report, which was an oversight on his part. Chenault, may I add, was immediately evicted from the basement by Sergeant Putnam when he saw him come down the ramp. He had him leave. Chenault said that he needed to check the vehicles in the basement and to see if any of them needed to be in the garage, and Sergeant Putnam told him that he could do that later; to leave the ramp area at that time, and he did.

Mr. Hubert. You mentioned the paddy wagon coming down the Main Street ramp.

Captain Talbert. It is a fact that the paddy wagon did come in. However, each vehicle coming in was searched, and the paddy wagon was operated by an officer named Lewis. The front seat of the paddy wagon was searched and the back of the paddy wagon was searched——

Mr. Hubert. By whom?

Captain Talbert. Chief Fisher—before they let them into the ramp. By Sergeant Putnam, himself, as I recall.

Mr. Hubert. You don't know of any record of how many paddy wagons or other vehicles came down Main Street ramp after Vaughn was posted and until the shooting?

Captain Talbert. I recall three in the reports. I didn't see any of it—of them, but I recall three in the reports. One being a paddy wagon. One vehicle contained two detectives. Another vehicle operated by R. A. Watts, with a juvenile prisoner. Watts was not permitted to leave the station and the prisoner was booked, and he was retained to assist in the security.

Mr. Hubert. Now, Captain Talbert, I am going to mark for identification an FBI report of an interview which you made on November 24, 1963, Dallas, Tex., March 24, 1964, as Exhibit 5065, deposition of C. E. Talbert, and I have signed my name to it. It is a one page document. I am marking another document consisting of two pages. Placing upon it, "Dallas, Tex., March 24, 1964, Exhibit 5066, deposition of C. E. Talbert." I am signing my own name below that, all of which is on the first page of the document which is the FBI report by Special Agent Vincent Drain, dated November 25, 1963. It consists of two pages and I am placing my initial on the bottom right-hand corner on the second page. I also am marking for identification another document, being a copy of a letter apparently addressed by you, Capt. Cecil Talbert to Chief Curry, dated November 26, containing five pages. The first page I am marking as follows: "Dallas, Tex., March 24, 1964, Exhibit 5067, deposition of Capt. C. E. Talbert." And I am signing my name below that now, and I am placing my initials in the lower right-hand corner of each of the following pages. I am marking on a single page document purporting to be an FBI report made by Special Agents Logan and Bramblett, dated December 10, 1963, by placing upon that document the words, "Dallas, Tex., March 24, 1964, Exhibit 5068, deposition of Capt. C. E. Talbert," and I have signed my name, and that document—that exhibit consists just of a single page. And finally123 marking upon a report of an interview which you had with Special Agents Bramblett and Logan of the FBI, on December 12, the following: "Dallas, Tex., March 24, 1964, Exhibit 5069, deposition of Capt. C. E. Talbert," under which I am signing my name. Now, that document consists of eight pages, and I am marking the seven other pages with my initials on the lower right-hand corner, on each of the pages. Now, Captain, I ask you if you have had a chance to study and to read these various documents?